CoSForums Archive - Book SIX: Who will fall in love with whom? Part Two

GilyAnn

July 30th, 2003, 12:26 pm

I don't think the word 'Voldermort' that hermione use really calm him down. But the thing that calm him down is the thing that she said they need to know how facing voldermort. it mean she believe and she trust in him and that the way hermione know how to calm him down

Repeatedly over and over the books Hermione's fails to meet Harry's emotional needs. Saying Voldemort's name it's easier to Hermione than for anyone else. Simply because she didn't live with the restrain. If Mrs. Weasley hears any of her children say Voldemort's name she would probably drop dead.

I'm wonder if ginny doesn't fail to harry's emotion why she doesn't discuss about possess with him by herself. Hermione know why he upset not only he think he was possessed, but because the relation about him and his friend at that time (Ron/Ginny) too. Hermione know how to resolve that problem she suggest them to talk after they talk he feel better not only he think he wasn't possess but he back in to the relation with his friends again. Don't say ginny has benefit from this talk see at my first sentence.

Wasn't Harry avoiding talking to people? Hermione was told by the others what happend. Hermione wasn't going for xmas to 12gp. Ginny helps light out Harry's heart in spite of himself. Up until that time Harry was being rude.

Hermione doesn't goes with what she think it's correct. She goes with the common fact. She tells harry to check at 12GP because it's the Real thing that can check while harry want to go to MOM because his Dream then I think It's the thing that he Need (check the Real thing it will made he get more confidense). Hermione doesn't go to MOM because she gave harry a plead, she goes there to help him she care for him.

I'm sorry but she does. Harry was going to the DoM with or without her. She pleads to him and tells him that she wants to check first and then she'll do whatever he wants. He tells her that it must be fast. Hermione is still thinking she can prove Harry wrong here by showing him that Sirius was in 12gp.

Well see. Ginny don't do anything even though believe in her friend (Hermione).On the other hand Hermione risk her life for stop Umbridge at that situation I don't think she need the plan on her mind if she doesn't want to see harry harm she would shout any word to stop Umbridge or change her interest but she doesn't do it . I'm wonder in your life who you can risk your life for except your parents.

Well problem here is that Ginny is Gagged and Hermione isn't. Hermione has full use of her speech abilities while Ginny and the others don't. In fact the gaggs were so tight that Neville was near suffocation.

Ginny may have been helpful in OotP, but it's important to remember that her serious lack of judgment in CoS could have had half the school killed, Harry dying a slow and painful death, and Voldemort returned to power. It's also important to remember that Ginny was willing to use lies and deceit in OotP to create diversions for Harry to break rules, yet she didn't come up with a scheme to prevent Umbridge from torturing Harry. Ginny has her uses, but she can be no means fulfill the role that Hermione plays in the trio.

AGAIN Ginny, Ron, Luna, and Neville are GAGGED! as in:

1. Something forced into or put over the mouth to prevent speaking or crying out.
2. An obstacle to or a censoring of free speech.
3. A device placed in the mouth to keep it open, as in dentistry.

I'm not trying to be rude but I have pointed this out several times and it seems to be either conveniently ignored or not recognized.

Here is the part because I didn't made that up:

There was a commotion outside and several large Slytherins entered, each gripping Ron, Ginny, Luna and - to Harry's bewilderment - Neville, who was trapped in a stranglehold by Crabbe and looked in imminent danger of suffocation. All four of them had been GAGGED .

Now to your Cos point. Ginny was also going to die. In fact Harry notice how near death she looked as time passed by. And wasn't Ginny 11 in CoS. I think Ginny learn well her lesson. Look on how she closes the music box in 12gp cutting people from getting sleepy.

Hermione doesn't goes with what she think it's correct. She goes with the common fact. She tells harry to check at 12GP because it's the Real thing that can check while harry want to go to MOM because his Dream then I think It's the thing that he Need (check the Real thing it will made he get more confidense). Hermione doesn't go to MOM because she gave harry a plead, she goes there to help him she care for him.

Again she did what she though was right and correct. She never listened to Harry's concerns. She went what she thought was correct.

'Harry, I'm begging you, please!' said Hermione desperately. 'Please let's just check that Sirius isn't at home before we go charging off to London. If we find out he's not there, then I swear I won't try to stop you. I'll come, I'll d - do whatever it takes to try and save him.'

At all moments Hermione though she could prove Harry wrong.

'OK,' said Hermione. 'Well then, Harry, you and I will be under the Invisibility Cloak and we'll sneak into the office and you can talk to Sirius -'

'He's not there, Hermione!'

'I mean, you can - can check whether Sirius is at home or not while I keep watch,

Hermione at all moments is thinking that Harry is wrong and they must do what she says. while Harry is only going on with the flow because of her plead to check first to then go to the DoM.

Hermione's loyalty is the only one that Harry recognized concretely throughout the entire series. How does this mean that he questioned it before? He never actually and consciously reflected upon Ron's loyalty to him, so can it also be assumed that he is in doubt about this as well? Of course not. Harry recognized that Hermione was being loyal to him by risking expulsion and serious trouble even when she didn't need to, and--even though both Hermione and Ron have done this before--this is the first time that Harry actually expressed it through the narration.

Harry has on his subconcious that Ron stands by him. Look on how when Hermione suggest the DA asso. He looked at him expecting to see the same face as always that supports him. He has no doubt about that. I just think it's sad that Harry has to see this loyalty to know that it exist. By now he should have no question about it. Harry has few occassions that he recognizes the good things Hermione does.

And it wasn't only the term "briskly" that implied that Hermione was less than happy about the kiss. She was also vague, distant, absent, business-like, and detached, as noted by Mad Eye Mike's essay on the passage. This is a pretty strange way to act upon finding out that your best friend just had his first kiss with his crush of three years.

Which also means that the subject to her wasn't that much interesting. Why should she be all eager to know what happend? She displayed a normal curiousity. Ron's curiosity was annoying. He kept on inssisting on what happend. I mean who like to shares your experiences and techniques on kissing? It's a touchy subject. I'm still failing to see her jealousy here.

Just out of curiosity, GilyAnn, do you think that Ginny could replace Hermione in terms of her friendship, level of trust, closeness, and helpfulness to Harry? I'm not being obnoxious or rude here; I'm curious as to your personal opinion.

Yes I do. Hermione is a brilliant friend. I don't doubt that. I don't know if you guys are confusing with me thinking that H/Hr don't make a good match romanticaly with me thinking that they are not friends. For clarifications purposes. H/Hr are great friends. But that's the way it should stay. Hermione does help a lot Harry. But that doesn't mean that she has to be his girlfriend because she is resourcefull to him. That is just completly unfair to her. I want someone different for Hermione and in terms of personality, simbolisms and all those fictional things I see Ron being the guy.

In fact I think that the team would be better if Harry had a girlfriend outside the trio off course. I DON'T WANT GINNY TO JOIN THE TRIO. In terms of story I think Ginny will be the entity that separates the trio. (One more thing for you guys to gang up against her :eyebrows: ) What I mean about separating is that the trio will become to their own life aside from one another. I got the feelings that next year the trio won't be taking the same classes toguehter or at least the amount of class they will take toguether will be considerably less.

I don't hate Hermione but I see that Harry has big issues with her. He is constantly refering to her thru her annoyance. I still think that she questions her loyalty. Why should Harry needs to see Hermione's loyalty to him? I mean doesn't the past 4 years that she stuck behind him count for anything. Harry has little appreciation for Hermione concern and constantly has little care for what's going on in her life. If Hermione would set out to be Harry's girlfriend he should express more gratitude and concern for her. I'll leave this here and carry on.

To answer your question I think Ginny has an excellent chance to become more close to Harry in the terms of what you expect. Look on how Harry confides in her something that he had deny to say to Ron and Hermione. Ginny is a pureblood witch which can help on what's one of Ron's side of the trio. His knowledge of the wizarding world and also on his sense of humor. Ginny has been proven to be a smart witch. She was able to clean's Neville's mess in a minute, she knows that Hagrid lure testralls with raw meat, she has a knowledge of hexing and is good at it. She is able to come up with quick answers to problems and also at figuring things out and is known to like to learn new things this in the train back home when she is doing the Quibblers test to figure out the hex that comes with it. So over all Ginny is the perfect combination of Ron and Hermione in just one person.

Gily Ann

FlyingPhoenix

July 30th, 2003, 12:35 pm

I don't think it was something about Harrys loyality in Hermione or trust what let him lie. Its because Hermione is close to him and this facts that his father wasn't like he always thought is already hard for him but to say this to someone who is that close to you its much more hard. She showed more as once that she thinks high from Harry and Harry want to be exactly that picture which Hermione has from him. But if he tell her or Ron that his own father wasn't this great guy much more someone Harry would dislike this destroy this picture. I do think its about pride in that scene and Harry don't want lose his pride. He never said Ginny why to be exactly nobody know it. So I don't think this is a problem for H/Hr thats quiet normal to act and well to be honest Ron and Hermione simply are to close to Harry as he could even start to speak about it.

Always if it did came to Harrys father he was pride and now he know his picture is wrong. Has you an idea how it is to go to your best friends and tell them your own father was a jerk even you was all the time so proud about your father? Nah I wouldn't want to see Hermiones face by that because it would hurt me badly and that is why Harry didn't say it it would hurt to much.

Mega

July 30th, 2003, 12:43 pm

GilyAnn Harry has been showing a lot of apprection for Hermione (especialy (sp) in OotP). He certinaly shows more than Ron.

DumbledoreTheWise

July 30th, 2003, 12:44 pm

all of you are saying Hermione didn't/couldn't comfort Harry because he didn't tell her what was wrong.
1) according to your prior reasoning: harry is so close to hermione that he is comfortable sharing anything. hmmmmm that doesn't seem to fit.
2) ginny didn't know what was going on either. the difference is, ginny recognized the seriousness of harry's need without knowing the situation, something hermione doesn't seem too adept at!

oh, and why is it that no one mentions the infamous Ron/Harry fallout in book 4, when harry is openly bored with Hermione? if he was so subconciously in love with her....why did he not enjoy the time they spent alone together? he just wanted ron back. he appreciated hermione being there, but he obviously wasn't all that enthralled by her.

GilyAnn Harry has been showing a lot of apprection for Hermione (especialy (sp) in OotP). He certinaly shows more than Ron.

I'm not so sure about that. Ron offers more compliments to Hermione in OotP than in any other book.
Example: page 299, US edition "Are you serious? Ah, Hermione you're a lifesaver. What can I-?" then later....."Hermione, you are honestly the most wonderful person I've ever met," said Ron weakly, "and if I'm ever rude to you again-"

Harry never says stuff like that. But Harry's personality is entirely different. He values his friends and everybody knows it. But Hermioneis just a friend, nothing more. She even gives him advice for what to do with Cho!!! Repeatedly even!Did she ever advise Ron on the subject of Fleur???
Oh, and in the dream, Hermione is nagging Harry. If that's a sign of subconcious love, than Voldemort's anger at Harry is a sign of subconcious respect.

BOOYAH!

GilyAnn

July 30th, 2003, 12:58 pm

I can say the same thing for Ginny. Well actually no I can't because Harry has NOT said that Ginny is loyal to him.

Look on how he recognized that she will help them even though she didn't understand. Again Why does Harry need to recognized Hermione's loyalty when she has been his friends for 5 years now? Doesn't it count for anything those 5 years?

So finding a better name is proves H/G is possible and proves that Ginny is intellectually superior than Cho?

The aesthetic of the work refers to Ginny as the one who provided a better name than the one that Cho suggested.

I'm a bit confused about this, could you put in the canon reference please.

'Ron,' she said severely as she turned and trod on his feet, 'this is exactly why Ginny hasn't told you she's seeing Michael, she knew you'd take it badly. So don't harp on about it, for heaven's sake.'

'What d'you mean? Who's taking anything badly? I'm not going to harp on about anything…' Ron continued to chunter under his breath all the way down the street.

Hermione rolled her eyes at Harry and then said in an undertone, while Ron was still muttering imprecations about Michael Corner, 'And talking about Michael and Ginny… what about Cho and you?'

'What d'you mean?' said Harry quickly.

It was as though boiling water was rising rapidly inside him; a burning sensation that was causing his face to smart in the cold -had he been that obvious?

'Well,' said Hermione, smiling slightly, 'she just couldn't keep her eyes off you, could she?'

JKR also shows H/C and H/K relationship in the same level, a better one at that, when Cho and Krum are jealous of Hermione and Harry, respectively.

Hr/Krum is directly discouss between Ron and Hermione. Hasn't nobody thought the Cho and Krum being jealous could be misleading?

What proof is this, pray tell? When did Ginny deal with a situation that Harry finds agreeable? I cannot remember, please show canon reference. Thanks.

It was pretty clear that Cho couldn't deal with Cho's emotions. While Ginny has in her familiy the Percy problem. She deals with it by feeling sad but being the same again and standing up to her family. After CoS she 'was happy again'. She learns on dealing with her family's poverty and it's less affected by the Slythering's tautings.

GilyAnn

Mega

July 30th, 2003, 12:59 pm

Yes but Hermione didn't like Fleur so I don't think she would want to advise him to try out with her.

FlyingPhoenix

July 30th, 2003, 1:07 pm

DumbledoreTheWise

all of you are saying Hermione didn't/couldn't comfort Harry because he didn't tell her what was wrong.
1) according to your prior reasoning: harry is so close to hermione that he is comfortable sharing anything. hmmmmm that doesn't seem to fit.
2) ginny didn't know what was going on either. the difference is, ginny recognized the seriousness of harry's need without knowing the situation, something hermione doesn't seem too adept at!

First I did never say Harry can tell her everything though he can but if he does is another case. You know this hasn't anything to do how much Harry trust her or how less. Its simply a question how much will Harry lose his face. This guy don't has much from his parents only this wrong knowledge that they were perfect. Thats what every teenager think if he or she lost the parents that early. They are perfect and the most lovely persons on this planet and its just unfair that you have to live without them. Are you thinking he would has the heart to tell anybody who didn't know them that his parents weren't perfect? This is the most painfull thing for a teenager to get that his parents weren't perfect that he even would dislike how they were. Harry just couldn't say to Ron and not to Hermione what he know and what bothering him. I bet even Harry were madly in love with any girl he did never ever tell her what he saw about his parents. Not in an million years.

I do think Hermione might have understand it much better that he need to speak with Sirius if he said the reason but it is how it is this is a topic what is to painful to share with his friends. He had fears to tell that he wanted to speak with Sirius because Hermione would ask and get that there is something wrong. But as Harry did tell Ginny this he did prefend it. Hermione was just to mad at that point to even ask why he want to speak with Sirius.

Sometimes you can't speak about such things. Its hurt like mad and if you speak about it, it hurts much more because you destroy this picture complett.

Sarmi

July 30th, 2003, 1:34 pm

Hey guys! Just wanted to say great posts! :clap: :clap: :clap:

DDWise, good post. However, do you really want Ron only being nice to Hermione to get help on homework as support for your ship. If you didn't notice, Hermione considers Ron rudeness towards her to be the norm. Just thought I'd point that out.

See y'all laters!!!

Sarmi

MoF

July 30th, 2003, 1:35 pm

We also nee to remeber that Harry couldn't tell Hermione he wished to speak to Sirius. Hermione could reason out that the reason why Harry had stopped taking occlumency lessons from Snape had something to do with Sirius.
And we can't say that Harry really confided in her. He just said he would like to talk to Sirius, but he didn't talk about the pensieve to Ginny either.

starwars9771

July 30th, 2003, 1:37 pm

This has been one of the debates that my friends and I have been having. Many say that it will be Hermione and Harry. I say no. Hermione and Ron are too antagonistic of each other. Plus, Ron showed his jealousy in Book 4 with Viktor. The reason why I believe Harry and Ginny will get together is as follows: 1) She is the only girl that has been taken advantage of by Voldermort. 2) She has red hair like Harry's mother 3) Ron is encouraging it 4) She is a fighter. Book 5, she has become quite the interesting character. I think she is the type that would stand her ground with Harry and he would listen. Ron and Hermione would be a great match because their in-laws would get along considering how much Ron's dad loves muggles!!! We shall see.

Mega

July 30th, 2003, 1:40 pm

Sarmi's right. Ron only shows apprection to Hermione when she is helping him with work. Harry doe's not show apprection just because she helps him with his work.

:clap::clap::clap:My 100 post!:clap::clap::clap:

Mega

July 30th, 2003, 1:49 pm

starwars9771 can I just debat on your reasons?

1) She is the only girl that has been taken advantage of by Voldermort - So? Lots of people have been taken advantage of Voldemort. You saying for Harry to have a good relationship the girl must have been taken advantage of by Voldemort?

2) She has red hair like Harry's mother - So? Mrs. Weasly has red hair. That doe's not mean Harry should be with her. My friend has black hair (like my mum). That doe's not mean she's a better match for me then another girl with brown hair.

3) Ron is encouraging it - He has never actually used words to encourage H/G.

4) She is a fighter - So is Hermione.

Grace Granger

July 30th, 2003, 1:52 pm

I'm not so sure about that. Ron offers more compliments to Hermione in OotP than in any other book.
Example: page 299, US edition "Are you serious? Ah, Hermione you're a lifesaver. What can I-?" then later....."Hermione, you are honestly the most wonderful person I've ever met," said Ron weakly, "and if I'm ever rude to you again-"

Harry never says stuff like that. But Harry's personality is entirely different.

Ron says those things just because she's helping him with his homework! He's practically using her. If she hadn't done that, he wouldn't be saying those things.
To this day Ron doesn't seem to understand that Hermione values her work and doesn't respect her wishes to not copy from each other. He still insists, unlike Harry, who knows not to even bother.

BOOYAH right back buddy!

Now Gily:

Look on how he recognized that she will help them even though she didn't understand. Again Why does Harry need to recognized Hermione's loyalty when she has been his friends for 5 years now? Doesn't it count for anything those 5 years?

I can I understand what you are saying. Why does it take Harry 5 years to recognize Hermione's loyalty. He's an idiot, yes he is. But don't YOU SEE that Hermione has proven that she is willing to help Harry regardless of the consequences just as Ron, Ginny, Luna, Neville, heck even Fred and George! Harry maybe slow in picking it up, but he has FINALLY admitted to her loyalty. We've also seen proof of his admiration since PoA. Might not be the same definition as Loyalty, but it sure is up there, no verdad?

'Ron,' she said severely as she turned and trod on his feet, 'this is exactly why Ginny hasn't told you she's seeing Michael, she knew you'd take it badly. So don't harp on about it, for heaven's sake.'

'What d'you mean? Who's taking anything badly? I'm not going to harp on about anything…' Ron continued to chunter under his breath all the way down the street.

Hermione rolled her eyes at Harry and then said in an undertone, while Ron was still muttering imprecations about Michael Corner, 'And talking about Michael and Ginny… what about Cho and you?'

'What d'you mean?' said Harry quickly.

It was as though boiling water was rising rapidly inside him; a burning sensation that was causing his face to smart in the cold -had he been that obvious?

'Well,' said Hermione, smiling slightly, 'she just couldn't keep her eyes off you, could she?'

So this shows that Ginny and Harry's relationship are in par with each other because they were mentioned in the same page?

Hr/Krum is directly discouss between Ron and Hermione. Hasn't nobody thought the Cho and Krum being jealous could be misleading?

Hasn't anybody thought that Cho, Harry's ex, is now with Michael, Ginny's ex, as misleading?

It was pretty clear that Cho couldn't deal with Cho's emotions. While Ginny has in her familiy the Percy problem. She deals with it by feeling sad but being the same again and standing up to her family. After CoS she 'was happy again'. She learns on dealing with her family's poverty and it's less affected by the Slythering's tautings.

I think you really can't compare Ginny's "Percy Problem" with a Cho's emotional turmoil over the death of her boyfriend. Percy is an idiot, simple as that. You feel mad and sad about his not being a part of the family, but he isn't dead so you can move on more quickly. You can hope he'll become part of the family again. Cho can't do that. There's a different grieving involved. I don't even think that the Weasley's problems with Percy is anything to be grieved over.

Starwars:
3) Ron is encouraging it

Ron maybe encouraging it for the wrong reasons (such as making sure Harry and Hermione don't get together.) And if Harry and Ginny are going to get together, I'd prefer for it to be from the feelings they have for each other, not because Ron is encouraging them. This encouragement sounds as though he's willing to force them into a situation that they may not be prepared of, thus causing the relationship to break off. I actualy hope this happens! :p :tu:

Earendil

July 30th, 2003, 2:13 pm

Originally posted by GilyAnn
Repeatedly over and over the books Hermione's fails to meet Harry's emotional needs.

Does anyone satisfy Harry's "emotional needs"? The point of having a protagonist who is in unresolved emotional turmoil is for the readers to be able to follow the progression of his mental development. We are not supposed to frequently see Harry being pacified or his emotional problems easily being rectified, because there needs to be sufficient conflict in the story, thus creating room for development. Therefore, why is it only Hermione who is unable to meet Harry's emotional needs? I would never presume to say that Hermione was Harry's shoulder to cry on or anything during the fight in GoF, but it's important to remember that she was the only one who stood by him, and the author deliberately made it this way for a reason--to show Harry being "bored" with Hermione, as DumbledoreTheWise said? Or to show that even through one of the worst points in Harry's life, Hermione was the only one who backed him up? No, he was not thrilled or overjoyed during his time alone with her, but this is a kid who was going through hell at the time and wouldn't have been enjoying himself even if he was casino-hopping in Vegas. And again, the point is to allow room for Harry to develop emotionally: how easy is it to have Harry immediately be pacified by Hermione, making everything happy-go-lucky again and everyone live peacefully ever after? No, this is a fictional series, and the protagonist simply cannot have his emotional issues resolved so conveniently, or there would be no story.

Now, Ginny manages to ascertain that Harry wants to talk to Sirius, and--without knowing or caring about the details or the potential consequences--she agrees to go running off to Fred and George. She was willing to give him what he wanted at the time. What about what he needs? To further the point on the emotional reaching-out, Ginny wasn't too adept at this at Christmas. When Harry was raving and ranting and clearly angry at the world, she succeeded in bringing attention back onto herself ("I'm the only person you know who knows what it feels like to be possessed by You-Know-Who"), making him feel guilty ("Lucky you," she said coolly), and giving him wrong advice ("Then You-Know-Who has ever possessed you," she said simply). I'm not trying to Ginny-bash here, but I can't agree that Ginny reaches out to Harry on an emotional level and satisfies his needs. It would quite honestly be foolish for the author to have any character be able to satisfy his emotional needs at this point in the series, for the sake of eventual climactic conflict resolution.

AGAIN Ginny, Ron, Luna, and Neville are GAGGED! as in:

Yes, I know, and I should have been clearer in my original post by pointing out that it is the author's decision to create circumstances in order to enable a certain course of action. And that each course of action makes a very specific statement about the importance and role of the character in question. It would have been very convenient to alter the circumstances and have Ginny NOT be gagged and be the one to come up with the scheme to save Harry and vanquish Umbridge. Instead, she passed up this opportunity to allow for more sufficient development of Ginny's character and her importance to the story, and instead created a more intense scene with Harry, Hermione, and the Forest.

Now to your Cos point. Ginny was also going to die. In fact Harry notice how near death she looked as time passed by. And wasn't Ginny 11 in CoS. I think Ginny learn well her lesson. Look on how she closes the music box in 12gp cutting people from getting sleepy.

My point was that she did do something quite stupid in CoS, and I was personally a little irritated that the author chose to conveniently turn this around and change Ginny's character completely in OotP. This was, of course, my own personal opinion and I don't hold it against the story as a whole. I even liked the "new" Ginny in OotP, but I can't agree that she was more helpful or will ever be more useful to Harry than Hermione is and has been for five years.

Hermione at all moments is thinking that Harry is wrong and they must do what she says. while Harry is only going on with the flow because of her plead to check first to then go to the DoM.

She made it perfectly clear that as long as they found out that Sirius wasn't at 12GP, she would do anything to help Harry rescue him. She didn't say something like, "If you do as I say and you happen to find that Sirius isn't there, then and only then I will help you". She said, "If we find out he's not there, then I swear I won't try to stop you". This isn't a matter of Hermione making conditions with Harry to suit her own purpose; she just wanted him to exercise caution and not play into Voldemort's trap for no valid reason. She even realized that this was so important to him that he wasn't going to budge and just ignore the false vision, like she obviously wanted him to--all she wanted was for him to make sure that Sirius was at the DoM in the only way that was available to them. Hermione didn't have her own agenda of trying to make Harry out to be an idiot and make herself look like the smart one. The girl was trying to keep him safe and out of Voldemort's reach, and she was the only one in the entire book who had the sense to question the consequences of Harry's rash decisions.

Harry has on his subconcious that Ron stands by him. Look on how when Hermione suggest the DA asso. He looked at him expecting to see the same face as always that supports him. He has no doubt about that.

Look at how when he finds out that Lavendar was talking about him behind his back, he automatically expected Hermione to be angry on his behalf. He had no doubt about that either. Also, how he expected Hermione to be sympathetic rather than critical after Umbridge's detention. By this criteria, isn't it also possible to assume that Harry subconsciously recognizes Hermione's loyalty to him?

Realistically, I would see no reason why he would question her loyalty. She wasn't the one who turned her back on him in a time that he needed his friends the most. She didn't harbor resentment for him over an issue that he himself hates and wants nothing to do with. She is the one of his two best friends who he has never had a major falling out with for personal and nonmaterial reasons. I can't imagine where in the text it implies that Harry ever questioned Hermione's loyalty to him.

Which also means that the subject to her wasn't that much interesting. Why should she be all eager to know what happend?

She shouldn't--nor should she be visibly detached and vague over a subject that she is so disinterested in. Besides, why would she have such an apathetically disinterested attitude about one of her best friends getting his first kiss? It's not like Hermione to be selfishly aloof when a friend finally achieves something that he has been wanting. Even with Quidditch, something she could hardly care less about, she manages to take an interest in it for Harry's sake. I don't see why she should suddenly act bored when something arguably good finally happens to one of her best friends.

Yes I do. Hermione is a brilliant friend. I don't doubt that. I don't know if you guys are confusing with me thinking that H/Hr don't make a good match romanticaly with me thinking that they are not friends. For clarifications purposes. H/Hr are great friends. But that's the way it should stay. Hermione does help a lot Harry. But that doesn't mean that she has to be his girlfriend because she is resourcefull to him. That is just completly unfair to her. I want someone different for Hermione and in terms of personality, simbolisms and all those fictional things I see Ron being the guy.

But do you agree that in order for Ginny to become romantically involved with Harry, she will need to literally replace Hermione as the most important and closest female in Harry's life? If so, I have my own doubts about how this could realistically be achieved in the next two books, even if they're both the size of a truck.

What I mean about separating is that the trio will become to their own life aside from one another. I got the feelings that next year the trio won't be taking the same classes toguehter or at least the amount of class they will take toguether will be considerably less.
Hmm. As that's speculation, I won't comment other than to say that I disagree. I do think that Harry will be attempting to push Hermione and Ron away in the next book, but that by now their friendships are so strong that they will refuse to allow this. And this is where their loyalty will truly be tested: they'll have to decide whether to let him go and alienate himself further, or to stand by him even when he doesn't want to open up to them. I know that I would be pretty disappointed if the trio just dissolved into trivialization after being built up and strengthened for five books, but that's MHO.

If Hermione would set out to be Harry's girlfriend he should express more gratitude and concern for her.

If Hermione was supposed to be Ron's girlfriend, I would hope that Ron would also express some kind of gratitude and concern for her other than to attempt to jinx Malfoy for calling her a Mudblood and thanking her once in five years for helping him with homework. Also, Harry is the one who defends Hermione's brilliance to the girl he has been crushing on for three years and practically faints with concern for her when she is injured. Yes, and I know that Ron wasn't with them when Hermione was cursed. It would have been easy enough to show him displaying retrospective or current concern for her in the hospital wing, and vice versa.

To answer your question I think Ginny has an excellent chance to become more close to Harry in the terms of what you expect.
<snip>
So over all Ginny is the perfect combination of Ron and Hermione in just one person.

Thanks for answering my question, GilyAnn. Needless to say, I disagree. ;) Ginny may have an excellent chance of becoming closer to Harry than both his best friends, but I personally don't believe that this can be done realistically and convincingly enough for me to be able to read it without vomiting. Again, it's just MHO, but I do think that JKR would have gone about it more thoroughly in developing Ginny and her relationship with Harry before OotP.

Originally posted by DumbledoreTheWise
all of you are saying Hermione didn't/couldn't comfort Harry because he didn't tell her what was wrong.

Actually, "all of us" aren't saying the same thing. I personally don't think that the only reason Hermione couldn't comfort Harry in the "Snape's Worst Memory" situation was because he didn't tell her the root of the problem; it was mostly because she knew that whatever he needed to speak to Sirius about was not life-threatening and could have waited. And that it was stupid to take the risk and endanger both himself and Sirius. I doubt that she would have changed her mind if she knew that Harry was upset about his dad being a jerk, because it still wasn't a matter of life and death that he speak with Sirius.

I'm going to leave the rest of this post alone because I see that it's been addressed by FP and Co. I also don't want to perpetuate the snarkiness by responding further to a post ending in "BOOYAH". Even if you're kidding, DumbledoreTheWise, keep in mind that this thread could easily be shut down if people begin to feel offensively challenged.

MoF

July 30th, 2003, 2:14 pm

2) ginny didn't know what was going on either. the difference is, ginny recognized the seriousness of harry's need without knowing the situation, something hermione doesn't seem too adept at!

- I just saw this one:

Hermione said nothing: she was looking at Harry, who was staring blankly at the opposite wall of the common romm while Crookshanks pawed at his hand, trying to get his ears scratched.
'What's wrong Harry?'
'What?' He said quickly. 'Nothing'

This is immediately after he tells them that Snape doesn't wasnt him in occlumency anymore. So yes, Hermione does regognise when Harry is sad about this. Afterwards, Harmione assumes that it has something to do with Cho:

'I saw Cho earlier' said Hermione tentatively 'She looked really miserable too...have you two had a row again'

When Harry talks to Ginny she assumes the same thing:

'You seem really down lately, Ginny persisted, 'You know, I'm sure if you just talked to Cho...'

So actually, Ginny isn't better than Hermione when it comes to recognizing Harry's mood. Also, FlyingPhoenix gave a nice explanation to why Harry doesn't talk to anyone about it.

A note to the slightly looney people out there: I think it is interesting that once more, Crookshanks seems to mirror Hermione (while Crookshanks pawed at his hand, trying to get his ears scratched.)
This is when Hermione tries to get Harry's attention

FlyingPhoenix

July 30th, 2003, 2:31 pm

This was really for me? Nice that I could guess that good in this case but how MoF did quote Hermione did indeed know something was wrong but like I said she thought it was because of Cho. Like Ginny she did it one page later.
So the only different is that Hermione is to close and ask rather why as Ginny would do it. Harry dos know her and know he couldn't hid it if she did indeed ask.

Grace Granger

July 30th, 2003, 2:33 pm

One more Gily:

AGAIN Ginny, Ron, Luna, and Neville are GAGGED!

I don't have my book with me, but I recall Ron saying "Er-My-Oh-Nee-No!" At least, he tried to stop Hermione from saying anything detrimental while he was GAGGED. Did Ginny, Luna and Neville say anything? No.

Young_Prodigy

July 30th, 2003, 2:44 pm

Good Posts everyone, I love reading what everyone has to say about the different relationships, especially the discussion between Grace Granger and Gilyann at the moment.

i don't think Ginny can replace Hermoine, I wouldnt want her too, the chemistry between the trio is excellent. But i think someone mentioned that someone outside the trio, like Ginny for example would have a better chance than Hermoine. I personally would want to see Ginny with Harry b/c l(like everyone has noted), she has developed and her character has become almost as vital as the trio. There are very suttle things that JK has mentioned when Harry and Ginny has been around each that should not be over looked(I'll try and find specific references) But Hermoine completes Harry and Ron so her character as a friend in context of the story is IMO more important than H/G being together. This doesnt take away from the fact that i think H/G should be together.

I hope that was not too confusing, after i read it the last two sentences seem kind of off. I know someone if not many will let me know anyway :D

http://www.cosforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6965&stc=1

EricaM

July 30th, 2003, 2:51 pm

This has been one of the debates that my friends and I have been having. Many say that it will be Hermione and Harry. I say no. Hermione and Ron are too antagonistic of each other. Plus, Ron showed his jealousy in Book 4 with Viktor.

The dynamic of Hermione and Ron's relationship was set forth in PS. They have an mildly antagonisitic relationship, one of one-upmanship and competativeness. I think it's based on the fact that they each feel that they have to prove themselves, their worth, to their peers. Ron because he is the youngest of 6 brothers all of whom have gained notoriety of one sort or another and Hermione because she's coming into a world where her heritage/parentage is held in contempt at worst and with mild condescension at best ('Oh, but you're Muggles').

R/Hr interaction is very much like sibling bickering (very reminiscent of my own children)

"Your doing it wrong!"
"No I'm not!"
"Are too!"
"Am not!"

PS, Chapter 10 (Hallowe'en)
'You're saying it wrong,' Harry heard Hermione snap. It's Wingar-dium Levi-o-sa, make the 'gar' nice and long.'
'You do it, then, if you're so clever,' Ron snarled
Hermione rolled up the sleeves of her gown, flicked her wand and said,' Wingardium Levios!'
Their feather rose off the desk and hovered about four feet above their heads.
'Oh, well done!' cride Professor Flitwick, clapping, 'Everyone see here, Miss Granger's done it!'
Ron was in a very bad temper by the end of the class

OotP, Chapter 18 (Dumbledore's Army)
'Did you see me disarm Hermione, Harry?'
'Only once,' said Hermione, stung. 'I got you loads more than you got me -'
'I did not only get you once, I got you at least three times -'
'Well, if you're counting the one where you tripped over your own feet and knocked the wand out of my hand-'

In my opinion, their ongoing bickering, in and of itself, is not an indication of sexual tension, it's just the way they normally relate to one another.

The reason why I believe Harry and Ginny will get together is as follows: 1) She is the only girl that has been taken advantage of by Voldermort. 2) She has red hair like Harry's mother 3) Ron is encouraging it 4) She is a fighter. Book 5, she has become quite the interesting character. I think she is the type that would stand her ground with Harry and he would listen.

1) Let's see, in CoS, under Voldemort (Tom Riddle's) direction the Basilisk got Penelope and Hermione too. The only reason they aren't dead now is because Hermione is smart and figured out what the 'monster' was and Penelope happened to have a compact mirror handy. I'd say these two girls where taken advantage of too. How about Susan Bones (did Voldmort kill her parents? grandparents? directly?). And as far as the life debt thingy with Harry rescuing Ginny, he's now done that for Hermione as well. He saved her from being AK'd by launching himself on the assaulting DE (I wonder way Harry reacted physically as opposed to using his wand, did he not have it at the time?)

2)Hermione is a muggle born witch, just like Harry's mother.

3)Ron encourages Harry to do a few things, how many of them turn out to be good ideas? Also, what benefit is it to Ron if Ginny and Harry are together. Why would he be less jealous of Harry than Michael Corner or Dean? Does he think he'd have an influence with them?

4)Hermione, Luna and all the females in the DA are fighters

5)I think that JKR spends a lot of time in OotP making Hermione indispensable to Harry (apparently, he does need her badly).
Why is that? It doesn't bode well for any other 'future' gf (as evidenced by Cho).

Why is Harry so concerned about not letting Hermione see him perform badly (marks on his written exams, his faux pas in his charms practical etc), why is it Hermione's voice that he hears in his head, why is it *always* Hermione so much so that Cho is jealous?

Erica

GilyAnn

July 30th, 2003, 2:58 pm

Why does it take Harry 5 years to recognize Hermione's loyalty. He's an idiot, yes he is. But don't YOU SEE that Hermione has proven that she is willing to help Harry regardless of the consequences just as Ron, Ginny, Luna, Neville, heck even Fred and George! Harry maybe slow in picking it up, but he has FINALLY admitted to her loyalty. We've also seen proof of his admiration since PoA. Might not be the same definition as Loyalty, but it sure is up there, no verdad?

My problem with this is that ever since PoA I see Harry failing to see that Hermione is being loyal to him and in OoP he sees her loyalty and recognized like something he doens't think she ever has. In some ways he doubts Hermione. Look at the beginning with Hedwig. I consider it unfair to Hermione.

So this shows that Ginny and Harry's relationship are in par with each other because they were mentioned in the same page?

The paralel of the discoussion which both ended in failings is a form of foreshadowing.

I think you really can't compare Ginny's "Percy Problem" with a Cho's emotional turmoil over the death of her boyfriend. Percy is an idiot, simple as that. You feel mad and sad about his not being a part of the family, but he isn't dead so you can move on more quickly. You can hope he'll become part of the family again. Cho can't do that. There's a different grieving involved. I don't even think that the Weasley's problems with Percy is anything to be grieved over.

Look on how Percy's issues have affected the family. Mrs. Weasley is a nervous reck over the issues with her son and Mr. Weasley looses control. The family is being affected and there is the huge possibility that something happens and one of them end up dead. Therefore preventing it for a chance of reconciliation.

Now, Ginny manages to ascertain that Harry wants to talk to Sirius, and--without knowing or caring about the details or the potential consequences--she agrees to go running off to Fred and George. She was willing to give him what he wanted at the time. What about what he needs? To further the point on the emotional reaching-out, Ginny wasn't too adept at this at Christmas. When Harry was raving and ranting and clearly angry at the world, she succeeded in bringing attention back onto herself ("I'm the only person you know who knows what it feels like to be possessed by You-Know-Who"), making him feel guilty ("Lucky you," she said coolly), and giving him wrong advice ("Then You-Know-Who has ever possessed you," she said simply). I'm not trying to Ginny-bash here, but I can't agree that Ginny reaches out to Harry on an emotional level and satisfies his needs. It would quite honestly be foolish for the author to have any character be able to satisfy his emotional needs at this point in the series, for the sake of eventual climactic conflict resolution.

She reaches him better than his friends. Ginny is able to realize that Harry seems very depressed lately and is willing to help him on that issue. Ginny's is able to stop Harry from wallowing in self pity by pointing out that he isn't the only one that has suffer at the hands of Lord Voldemort. The fact is that Voldemort didn't have sucess on fully possessing Harry because of the love he felt. So he was never able to possess him completly. Voldemort was feeding Harry dreams and look thru him but was unsessfull in fully possess him.

Yes, I know, and I should have been clearer in my original post by pointing out that it is the author's decision to create circumstances in order to enable a certain course of action. And that each course of action makes a very specific statement about the importance and role of the character in question. It would have been very convenient to alter the circumstances and have Ginny NOT be gagged and be the one to come up with the scheme to save Harry and vanquish Umbridge. Instead, she passed up this opportunity to allow for more sufficient development of Ginny's character and her importance to the story, and instead created a more intense scene with Harry, Hermione, and the Forest.

Ain't weird that we had the Boggie hex mention twice and we never got to see it. I still feel at this point that JKR doesn't want us to find certain things about Ginny and Neville. We don't know how they free themselves even though Harry was impressed that they were able to do so. They say it was by magic but problem I have is that they were gagged, they had not wands and they were being held. I would have really like to know what happend. So I think that taking Harry and Hermione (harry for being pov person and hermione for being so smart) away from there was with the purpose of preventing us from seeing how the heck did they do that.

My point was that she did do something quite stupid in CoS, and I was personally a little irritated that the author chose to conveniently turn this around and change Ginny's character completely in OotP. This was, of course, my own personal opinion and I don't hold it against the story as a whole. I even liked the "new" Ginny in OotP, but I can't agree that she was more helpful or will ever be more useful to Harry than Hermione is and has been for five years.

Two things:

First Everything that jkr fleshed out about Ginny was foreshadown previously. Some h/g fans consider that even quidditch had a small hint.
Second: I don't agree with what I'm about to say but I'm just curious. If she would have really turn her around couldn't it be that she was trying to change her to meet Harry's needs.

She made it perfectly clear that as long as they found out that Sirius wasn't at 12GP, she would do anything to help Harry rescue him. She didn't say something like, "If you do as I say and you happen to find that Sirius isn't there, then and only then I will help you". She said, "If we find out he's not there, then I swear I won't try to stop you". This isn't a matter of Hermione making conditions with Harry to suit her own purpose; she just wanted him to exercise caution and not play into Voldemort's trap for no valid reason. She even realized that this was so important to him that he wasn't going to budge and just ignore the false vision, like she obviously wanted him to--all she wanted was for him to make sure that Sirius was at the DoM in the only way that was available to them. Hermione didn't have her own agenda of trying to make Harry out to be an idiot and make herself look like the smart one. The girl was trying to keep him safe and out of Voldemort's reach, and she was the only one in the entire book who had the sense to question the consequences of Harry's rash decisions.

But Hermione always though that Sirius was at 12GP.

Look at how when he finds out that Lavendar was talking about him behind his back, he automatically expected Hermione to be angry on his behalf. He had no doubt about that either. Also, how he expected Hermione to be sympathetic rather than critical after Umbridge's detention. By this criteria, isn't it also possible to assume that Harry subconsciously recognizes Hermione's loyalty to him?

Is the part about Lavender this one:

'Yes, Lavender thinks so too,' she said gloomily.
'Been having a nice little chat with her about whether or not I'm a lying, attention-seeking prat, have you?' Harry said loudly.

Because if it is. Harry is doubting Hermione here again.
He also was happy on the Umbridge thing because she was being sympathetical rather than critical. He is expecting her to be critical rather than symphathetic to him.

She shouldn't--nor should she be visibly detached and vague over a subject that she is so disinterested in. Besides, why would she have such an apathetically disinterested attitude about one of her best friends getting his first kiss? It's not like Hermione to be selfishly aloof when a friend finally achieves something that he has been wanting. Even with Quidditch, something she could hardly care less about, she manages to take an interest in it for Harry's sake. I don't see why she should suddenly act bored when something arguably good finally happens to one of her best friends.

I don't see why she has to be so interested in it. I mean what were they supossed to discouss. Also she was able to explain to Harry why Cho was crying and her feelings. I just don't see the jealous line anywhere here.

But do you agree that in order for Ginny to become romantically involved with Harry, she will need to literally replace Hermione as the most important and closest female in Harry's life? If so, I have my own doubts about how this could realistically be achieved in the next two books, even if they're both the size of a truck.

You guys are the ones who think that any girl has to replace Hermione. I think both girls have each a different stand on Harry's life. I was asked if under your terms Ginny could replace Hermione.

If Hermione was supposed to be Ron's girlfriend, I would hope that Ron would also express some kind of gratitude and concern for her other than to attempt to jinx Malfoy for calling her a Mudblood and thanking her once in five years for helping him with homework. Also, Harry is the one who defends Hermione's brilliance to the girl he has been crushing on for three years and practically faints with concern for her when she is injured. Yes, and I know that Ron wasn't with them when Hermione was cursed. It would have been easy enough to show him displaying retrospective or current concern for her in the hospital wing, and vice versa.

I agree that R/Hr need to show some apreciation. But Ron does phrase Hermione and defends her more than Harry does. It should count for something. Over Harry's concern over Hermione's hex. I though he displayed very little concern. He was rather selfish and I personaly felt he was rather very dismissal about the issue.

Gily Ann

Edit:
I don't have my book with me, but I recall Ron saying "Er-My-Oh-Nee-No!" At least, he tried to stop Hermione from saying anything detrimental while he was GAGGED. Did Ginny, Luna and Neville say anything? No.

Nitpicking huh? Well I'll help you out then. I think Neville tried to say something also. You have one more person to gang up against H/G. :eyebrows: Even more Ginny was apparently to busy fighting the large six year girl who had her in a tight grip. Then again Hermione's plan almost got Harry and her killed. Maybe if Hermione would have waited we would have seen how was it that Ginny and the others free themselves and it may had even been more efficiently.

Edit: Ups no Neville never said anything that was in DoM.

Edit:
I think it's weird that we don't know what Hermione's wand wood/core is, since we know both Harry and Ron's. I think it's also weird that we didn't get to see Hermione's Boggart, and why is it that Hemrione's boggart seems to be the only one that actually 'speaks'.

Maybe it's simply because Harry isn't interested. Hermione's boggart was talked about and JKR said that it was that. Her being scared of failing. It was very authobiografical. I think we basicly saw Ron's because it was dead funny.

EricaM

July 30th, 2003, 3:10 pm

Ain't weird that we had the Boggie hex mention twice and we never got to see it. I still feel at this point that JKR doesn't want us to find certain things about Ginny and Neville. We don't know how they free themselves even though Harry was impressed that they were able to do so. They say it was by magic but problem I have is that they were gagged, they had not wands and they were being held. I would have really like to know what happend. So I think that taking Harry and Hermione (harry for being pov person and hermione for being so smart) away from there was with the purpose of preventing us from seeing how the heck did they do that.

I think it's weird that we don't know what Hermione's wand wood/core is, since we know both Harry and Ron's. I think it's also weird that we didn't get to see Hermione's Boggart, and why is it that Hemrione's boggart seems to be the only one that actually 'speaks'.

Inquiring minds want to know ;)

Erica

AvadaKedavra

July 30th, 2003, 3:11 pm

Whew, a lot of posts to respond to!

:tu: for all the great posts by everyone!

I would like to point something out. Hermione "smiles slightly" when she tells Harry about Cho not being able to take her eyes off Harry. Now, this indicates that she is truly happy for Harry. If she was fantastically eager about the whole thing, then I would suspect something was up.

But she expresses her happiness in a moderate way, which leads me to suspect that it is genuine. Now, even if she was subconsciously liking Harry, why be genuinely happy? In fact, why even tell him Cho couldn't even take her eyes off him in the first place? There's no harm really done by keeping her mouth shut.

Do you really think Hermione is a shrewd, calculating person, who assesses people's romantic needs and thinks "Oh, Harry had better get over Cho first, I'll push them together, and once it's over, here I step in" ?

Or, do you think she is being genuine and martyring herself, putting Harry's emotional needs first, whilst she suffers pain and hurt herself?

Neither make sense. Neither tallies. The solution I can think of is that Hermione cares genuinely for Harry and attempts to help Harry, give him a prod in the right direction, but she's not THAT concerned about his love life, just his well being, from a strictly-friends only viewpoint.

Another thing I have brought up in the past, but brought up again by Buckbeak (thanks).

Hermione and Harry only have a chance if a condition is satsified. That condition requires Ron to terminate his "crush" for Hermione.

I don't think he will. So bye-bye H/Hr. :D

Signing out,

Avada

Daveydee

July 30th, 2003, 3:11 pm

To all H/Hr shippers,

A quick question for you all:

Why do you think JKR might have initially written the characters of Ron and Hermione as antagonistic towards one another?

Brief answers will suffice.

Fairydust

July 30th, 2003, 3:12 pm

Fabulous posts. I'm just in awe of what you all come up with. Anyhoo, more reasons for why it's going to be H/G. Harry subconsciously checks out Ginny. The way she is described is a lot more flattering than the way the other girls (aside from Cho who we know is really pretty) are described. Also, if you think about it, Molly said that Harry was as good as a son, the way he could become an official Weasley is if he gets with Ginny and they marry or what not. I think that was subtle foreshadowing for an H/G relationship. There are subtle hints for R/H, too. For one thing, Hermione's patronus is an otter. Ron lives on Otter-y St. Catchpole. Coincidence? I think not. While the H/H theory has supposed proof that's right in your face. H/G and R/H have subtle clues. You have to read between the lines to see these two couples in the works. H/H is too obvious. :agree:

FlyingPhoenix

July 30th, 2003, 3:20 pm

'Yes, Lavender thinks so too,' she said gloomily.
'Been having a nice little chat with her about whether or not I'm a lying, attention-seeking prat, have you?' Harry said loudly.

Because if it is. Harry is doubting Hermione here again.
He also was happy on the Umbridge thing because she was being sympathetical rather than critical. He is expecting her to be critical rather than symphathetic to him.

I jump in at this point sorry for that but I think I need to make something clear. Harry isn't really dounting Hermione. Not really. He has fears that his own friends could think so. I mean its after the first night back at Hogwarts and Seamus a guy who he knows since 4 years don't believe him anymore. A big row lays behind Harry. If we try a little look back at GoF as Ron was who actuelly said something that line than is Harrys fear more as real.

"Its OK, you know, you can tell me the truth," he said."If you don't want everyone else know, fine, but I don't know why you're bothering to lie, you didn't into trouble for it, did you?..

So Harrys fears are real thats why he react like that and say things in that manner. Off course he know that Hermione believe him but he want hear it. So there aren't doubts there are fears because last year was it like that, that someone of his best friends didn't believe him even Ron did know the truth but he said he don't believe Harry.

EDIT: First the slighly smile had we in the first thread and MEM and Sirius 83 did explain this part. For short Hermione dos slighly smile. Its barely not a real smile much more an acting smile. She do it because Harry react as if he didn't know what she mean and not because she is happy and not because she is really happy about it.

Now why JKR did create Ron and Hermione as oposite characters. Its non-shiping reason for me its how this 7 books work. In the first three books was it easy going and not that serious there was Harrys friendship more to Ron centered. In book4 did it change through the fight between Harry and Ron. This book change the atmosphere in the whole story its not anymore lightly its heavy and going to serious and dark. From OotP on Harrys friendship is centered around Hermione because she take things serious, very serious and thats how this books going to be.

Shipping part: If there weren't any change for R/Hr or no suspicious moments than people would think H/Hr is the only posible byside of H/G and if JKR will really write H/Hr in the end than were this very boring to do in thinking that every reader from the beginning thought H/Hr will happen. So she bring Ron and Hermione in as opposite characters and let play some hormones by Ron thant implied that the reader don't really know which couple will happen. So it will be more a surprise. If JKR didn't that way than we weren't here and did debatte and for sure no HP-fan did waste the time with it. Thats how commerce works only this way her books will be in any debatte

AvadaKedavra

July 30th, 2003, 3:32 pm

Sorry to point this out, but you have blatantly contradicted yourself here.

You say:

I jump in at this point sorry for that but I think I need to make something clear. Harry isn't really dounting Hermione. Not really.

But here you say

He has fears that his own friends could think so.

So there aren't doubts there are fears because last year was it like that

Fears of what? Fears of Hermione doubting him. Fears of Hermione not sticking up for him. In other words, Harry doubts Hermione- he doubts that she is loyal.

Signing out,

Avada

Fairydust

July 30th, 2003, 3:33 pm

Nice, Avada. Anyhoo, the feelings for R/H are there. Ron has feelings for her that most likely run deep. if he gets screwed over by Harry then it's over.

Daveydee

July 30th, 2003, 3:36 pm

OK – can't wait. So in answer to my own question.

In the early books we see them as petty squabblers. More often than not provoking each other over minor points.

As they grow up a little we see these petty squabbles develop into deeper rifts, where neither will acknowledge the other for a period.

As adolescence and hormones dawn those deeper rifts evolve into arguments over personal boy/girl issues – very adolescent issues.

As they enter the second half of their teenage years they have a tendency to tone down their views and start to learn to accept each others differences.

With a few exceptions, they have done with the childish squabbling, with the pre-pubescent disagreements, with the adolescent arguments.

Anyone see a pattern emerging here?

Does anybody not think that it might be remotely possible that JK set up the antagonistic relationship in PS/SS, developed it through CoS and PoA, culminated it in GoF, and begins to resolve it in OotP, because it makes interesting reading.

Yes – it's actually quite a good tale isn't it? Sounds a bit like a love story, in fact. The coming together and eventual unity of what were once polar opposites (which, as I type this, has just occurred to me is the major theme of the books)

Fairydust

July 30th, 2003, 3:39 pm

i love your siggy, Daveydee. I also think you're right about the whole petty arguments and stuff. In the first book, it was pretty clear that Ron did not like her that much. But you know, if a guy said he hated a girl it pretty much meant that he had a crush on her. Hermione, too. She seemed to think Ron a dunderhead of sorts, but mainly because she also had a thing for him. R/H all the way.

GilyAnn

July 30th, 2003, 3:39 pm

I jump in at this point sorry for that but I think I need to make something clear. Harry isn't really dounting Hermione. Not really. He has fears that his own friends could think so. I mean its after the first night back at Hogwarts and Seamus a guy who he knows since 4 years don't believe him anymore. A big row lays behind Harry. If we try a little look back at GoF as Ron was who actuelly said something that line than is Harrys fear more as real.

He is acussing Hermione directly of having chats about him behind his back and about his sanity. I fail to see how is it that he is trusting here.

So Harrys fears are real thats why he react like that and say things in that manner. Off course he know that Hermione believe him but he want hear it. So there aren't doubts there are fears because last year was it like that, that someone of his best friends didn't believe him even Ron did know the truth but he said he don't believe Harry.

Yes but according to the H/Hr shippers. Hermione stuck behind him so he shouldn't have had any doubts about her friendship to him.

Gily Ann

Edit:
No, fears that anybody else could think he lies. He know that Hermione believes him but he want hear it he want hear that she say it this aren't really doubts. Doubts are different. Its like he say nothing and looks only oddly at her and think by himself that he isn't sure if he believes her or not. In that case he want hear it so its not doubt in Hermione. By the way this quote about Lavender was never said that He think Hermione did say he is a liar. Its said that she has a little nice chat wheter he said the true or not. That again say that after Hermione already said Lavender don't believe Harry that Harry think Hermione did debatte it and tried to show Harry don't lie. But Hermione did answer simply Lavender should shut up and didn't debatte it.

So he doubts her that she thinks he is telling the truth. If he needs to hear and be proven it's because he doubt her. He said it loudly. He is not asking her he is attacking her.

FlyingPhoenix

July 30th, 2003, 3:47 pm

Fears of what? Fears of Hermione doubting him. Fears of Hermione not sticking up for him. In other words, Harry doubts Hermione- he doubts that she is loyal.

No, fears that anybody else could think he lies. He know that Hermione believes him but he want hear it he want hear that she say it this aren't really doubts. Doubts are different. Its like he say nothing and looks only oddly at her and think by himself that he isn't sure if he believes her or not. In that case he want hear it so its not doubt in Hermione. By the way this quote about Lavender was never said that He think Hermione did say he is a liar. Its said that she has a little nice chat wheter he said the true or not. That again say that after Hermione already said Lavender don't believe Harry that Harry think Hermione did debatte it and tried to show Harry don't lie. But Hermione did answer simply Lavender should shut up and didn't debatte it.

So where are his doubts? Only fears that all people speak about him and that include his best friends.

One question what do you think about this perfume scene?

Now to something what Hawk did explain or interpret indeed very well but I do see the problem in another part of it. I will now show how much Hermione shoot against R/Hr. Its really scary or better something what bothering me and I do hope you as R/Hr see it like me in this case because I don't like what Hermione do with Ron.

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Thanks for the book, Harry," she said happily, "I've been wanting that New Theory of Numerology for ages! And that perfume's really unusual, Ron"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think we all know this quote by now but I think this need a closer look. First Hermione do thank Harry for this book but the most interest part is she do name this book and say that she really wanted it. In other words Harry did a great job to give her that book and that she know he did listen to her. If Ron has really feelings for Hermione I did expect by now Ron get suspicious about Hermione and if she even like him that way. Because that what she do is more as tactless this one is IMO more tactless as Harrys date with Cho. Why? Because first Hermione say only to Harry thanks and say only to him that she really wanted this book and even name it that say she really like it if not love it. Or do you believe Harry don't know what a book it was what he gave her? So why name it? Now to this little, very little sentence which is about Ron's gift. Its said like as if its only by the way without any describtion, without any feelings in it. What I understand under feelings is this little part "for ages!" or "I've been wanting...". By this perfume part she don't say only unusual, what is already bad, she said really unusual, thats worst. The only way you could make it worst is to say I just don't like it.

For me is the very cruel part on it that she don't thank Ron for it and the part what bothering me is that she say in front of Ron how wonderful Harry's present is but if it comes to Ron's she said it that way. This is so much against R/Hr that it nearly screams. I mean I would say its alright if she say it apart from each other. You know thanks Harry for this book without Ron around and than go together, let say down the stairs and say this sentence to Ron. But she don't do it. She say it together. This is tactless you don't do that, not in that way. Alone by this quote I can't understand why R/Hr is that great idea just because this shows for me more as that Hermione seems not like Ron in that way.

Grace Granger

July 30th, 2003, 3:51 pm

My problem with this is that ever since PoA I see Harry failing to see that Hermione is being loyal to him and in OoP he sees her loyalty and recognized like something he doens't think she ever has. In some ways he doubts Hermione. Look at the beginning with Hedwig. I consider it unfair to Hermione.

Harry is a kid! He was shocked and upset that his Firebolt was taken away for legitimate reasons. But he did state that he understand WHY she did it, can you blame him for not being happy about it, but still understanding Hermione's reasoning about it. It seems Harry does not have an emotional range of a teaspoon to feel mad, and from what it seems like guilty, at Hermione

The paralel of the discoussion which both ended in failings is a form of foreshadowing.

So this shows that Ginny/Michael and Harry/Cho's relationship discussion on the same page is a foreshadowing to their relationship with each other?

Look on how Percy's issues have affected the family. Mrs. Weasley is a nervous reck over the issues with her son and Mr. Weasley looses control. The family is being affected and there is the huge possibility that something happens and one of them end up dead. Therefore preventing it for a chance of reconciliation.

We are shown how severely distress Mrs. Weasley is, not Ginny. All of the Weasley children are angry at what Percy did, but it was not shown that they too were thinking along the same lines as Mrs. Weasley. Therefore, Ginny's emotional issues are still nothing compared to Cho's.

She reaches him better than his friends. Ginny is able to realize that Harry seems very depressed lately and is willing to help him on that issue. Ginny's is able to stop Harry from wallowing in self pity by pointing out that he isn't the only one that has suffer at the hands of Lord Voldemort. The fact is that Voldemort didn't have sucess on fully possessing Harry because of the love he felt. So he was never able to possess him completly. Voldemort was feeding Harry dreams and look thru him but was unsessfull in fully possess him.

I thought that whole scene was a "group effort"?

Ain't weird that we had the Boggie hex mention twice and we never got to see it. I still feel at this point that JKR doesn't want us to find certain things about Ginny and Neville. We don't know how they free themselves even though Harry was impressed that they were able to do so. They say it was by magic but problem I have is that they were gagged, they had not wands and they were being held. I would have really like to know what happend. So I think that taking Harry and Hermione (harry for being pov person and hermione for being so smart) away from there was with the purpose of preventing us from seeing how the heck did they do that.

Then why does she mention the Bogey hex and put Neville with Harry and Hermione in the DoM scene? Oh, is it so that later on Harry could see officially acknowledge their loyalty?

Nitpicking huh? Well I'll help you out then. I think Neville tried to say something also. You have one more person to gang up against H/G. :eyebrows: Even more Ginny was apparently to busy fighting the large six year girl who had her in a tight grip. Then again Hermione's plan almost got Harry and her killed. Maybe if Hermione would have waited we would have seen how was it that Ginny and the others free themselves and it may had even been more efficiently.

:rotfl: You have GOT to be kidding me. "Maybe if Hermione would have waited we would have seen how was it that Ginny....." Obviously, Ginny was more concerned to get that Slytherin off her to scream NO HARRY! If JKR had waited Harry would have be Crucio'd and where would that have gotten them? If Neville screamed, then good, but did Ginny? No. She didn't even try to muffle.

jeanie beanie

July 30th, 2003, 3:52 pm

Well said Daveydee :clap: Those are exactly my thoughts on the development of Ron and Hermione's relationship -- only more succinctly said than I ever could!

BTW, I also, love your sig.

Daveydee

July 30th, 2003, 3:54 pm

So she bring Ron and Hermione in as opposite characters and let play some hormones by Ron thant implied that the reader don't really know which couple will happen. So it will be more a surprise. If JKR didn't that way than we weren't here and did debatte and for sure no HP-fan did waste the time with it. Thats how commerce works only this way her books will be in any debatte

I see. Commercial considerations and shippers debates. So no motivation on JK's part then to actually write a decent and compelling story.

FlyingPhoenix

July 30th, 2003, 3:59 pm

I see. Commercial considerations and shippers debates. So no motivation on JK's part then to actually write a decent and compelling story.

I didn't mean she did it only for money. She did it because the plot to make the plot by side of Voldemort and all this stuff even about love or crush interest. If you go straight and bring only one possible shipp into canon the serie lost in interest by reading and waiting what will happen. This again is not a statement that I think this books are only about shipping this say only JKR want a whole book without any lack off surprise in canon so thats why Ron have to be Ron and Hermione just Hermione.

Fairydust

July 30th, 2003, 4:03 pm

H/H is too obvious. Come on! The hero getting the heroine? That always happens. I feel that there's more of a connection between Ron and Hermione romantically. All those times they were alon who knows what might have transpired between them. Harry sees that Hermione might have some feelings for Ron. Harry also sees that Ron might have feelings for Hermione. Harry has no romantic inkling for either of them. Because the books are in Harry's pov then we don't see what transpires between the characters when he's not around. For all we know Hermione and Ron could already be together and are keeping iot secret because a romantic relationship is not what everyone needs right now.

MoF

July 30th, 2003, 4:06 pm

A decent and compelling story shows how difficult romance and love is, like In Real Life. In these books, love is confusing and not at all straightforward, like IRL. It doesn't necassarily mean that JKR is greedy.

H/H is too obvious. Come on! The hero getting the heroine? That always happens.

And some people say that R/Hr is too obvious, mainley because of the hints drpooed in GoF. About the hero geting the heroine, yes, that might be considered a cliché, but if R/Hr happened it would also be a cliché.
The idea of opposites attracting each other is at least as much cliché as the hero getting the heroine.

GryffindorGal

July 30th, 2003, 4:06 pm

This has been one of the debates that my friends and I have been having. Many say that it will be Hermione and Harry. I say no. Hermione and Ron are too antagonistic of each other. Plus, Ron showed his jealousy in Book 4 with Viktor. The reason why I believe Harry and Ginny will get together is as follows: 1) She is the only girl that has been taken advantage of by Voldermort. 2) She has red hair like Harry's mother 3) Ron is encouraging it 4) She is a fighter. Book 5, she has become quite the interesting character. I think she is the type that would stand her ground with Harry and he would listen. Ron and Hermione would be a great match because their in-laws would get along considering how much Ron's dad loves muggles!!! We shall see.

:welcome: to the cosforums.

I think that you established the reason why Ron/Hermione won't be together with your fourth sentence: Ron and Hermione are too antagonistic. That's not a positive statement at all: antagonism: "actively expressed opposition or hostility" Nope not remotely romantic or positive.

If you recall Viktor showed his jealousy with Harry. IMO Viktor's carried more weight because Ron could only imagine what was going on with Hr/Viktor while Viktor was privy to firsthand knowledge of Hermione talking about Harry. How would Ron have reacted had he known that she spent a good deal of her time with Viktor talking about Harry? We can only speculate but based on his own (unacknowleged) feelings for Hr plus the lingering resentment towards H I don't think that it would have been pretty. (I also expect the GOF feud to rekindle at some point)

1. Ginny's not the only girl to have been taken advantage of by Voldemort/Riddle. Hermione and Penelope were both petrified and only Hermione's quick thinking saved them. Moaning Mrytle was killed by Riddle.

2. Using that logic I should have married a man with black hair and my husband shold have married a red head.

3. Ron is in complete denial over the fact that he likes Hermione. "Completely missed the point" is his reaction in GOF. Hermione OTOH has realised it and apparently decided that if she ignores it it will go away. She spent the remaining 6 months of their 4th year "dating". Krum and talking about Harry "very often"

4. Who is a fighter (Hermione or Ginny) and in which way do you mean it. Fighter as in argumentive or as in striving to do her best? If you are refering to Hermione and mean 'fighter' as in argumentive I strongly disagree. Never once in the books has she been described as enjoying the bickering. "snapped", "nasitly", "bitterly" are not the words used to describe someone having a good time.

GilyAnn

July 30th, 2003, 4:07 pm

You have GOT to be kidding me. "Maybe if Hermione would have waited we would have seen how was it that Ginny....." Obviously, Ginny was more concerned to get that Slytherin off her to scream NO HARRY! If JKR had waited Harry would have be Crucio'd and where would that have gotten them? If Neville screamed, then good, but did Ginny? No. She didn't even try to muffle.

:eyebrows: :scared: She is GAGGED! Can't speak! Maybe Ginny was trying to free herself to help Harry and the others. It would have been nice if she could have loosen the gag problem was that the hands were also being on a tight grip. This all for the sake of nitpicking because that is what we are doing! :no:

Then why does she mention the Bogey hex and put Neville with Harry and Hermione in the DoM scene? Oh, is it so that later on Harry could see officially acknowledge their loyalty?

Because Neville needed to be left with Harry and he was the one who ended up carrying Hermione after she was hex.

We are shown how severely distress Mrs. Weasley is, not Ginny. All of the Weasley children are angry at what Percy did, but it was not shown that they too were thinking along the same lines as Mrs. Weasley. Therefore, Ginny's emotional issues are still nothing compared to Cho's.

Basicly Ginny does not care enough to be affected by her family problems. She looked very sad and upset but she isn't actually affected. Oookkk :shrug: That is weird!

Harry is a kid! He was shocked and upset that his Firebolt was taken away for legitimate reasons. But he did state that he understand WHY she did it, can you blame him for not being happy about it, but still understanding Hermione's reasoning about it. It seems Harry does not have an emotional range of a teaspoon to feel mad, and from what it seems like guilty, at Hermione

He seemed quite upset and makes up with her when Hagrid mentions it and he gets his firebolt back. If he understood so well. Why not to talk to her? IMHO Harry doubts Hermione over the curse of the next books.

Gily Ann

Edit:
1. Ginny's not the only girl to have been taken advantage of by Voldemort/Riddle. Hermione and Penelope were both petrified and only Hermione's quick thinking saved them. Moaning Mrytle was killed by Riddle.

Wasn't Hermione attacked by the basilisk which was being directed by Ginny. Also we don't know how she got the mirror. How can we be sure it wasn't Penelope the one with the mirror. I mean Hermione doesn't strike me as girl who would hang around with a mirror everywhere.

i've said this many times before. Harry is subconsciously checking out Ginny.

LOL We have some Orange Crushers that say the same thing.

Fairydust

July 30th, 2003, 4:11 pm

Ron has acknowledged his feelings for Hermione. ahem, the scene where she kisses him on the cheek and he walks away touching the spot she kissed as in a daze. He's got it bad. Also, this is a little rocky, but when Ron was missing after his abysmal game she seemed a lot more worried than Harry did. She jumped up when he came into the room and everything. she looks upset when she offends him on his game and everything. Hermione may secretly be harboring feelings for Ron. we'll just have to wait and see.

i've said this many times before. Harry is subconsciously checking out Ginny.

Mega

July 30th, 2003, 4:13 pm

I have no doubts that Ron has a crush on Hermione but in 5 books she has not shown any real signs of liking him back. But their are a lot of signs of her liking Harry.

Fairydust

July 30th, 2003, 4:18 pm

What do you mean no signs of liking him back? The fourth book with her saying "ask me instead of someone else" is a sure sign that she has feelings for him. I don't know what else to say. It's just that all the R/H hints are very subtle and you'd have to read carefully to get them.

H/G! He subconsciously checks her out! Come n, that's something.

DumbledoreTheWise

July 30th, 2003, 4:19 pm

Okay everyone, you seem to be laboring under the suspicion that I said that Harry opened up to Ginny more or something like that. Quite the contrary. I said that they both, Ginny and Hermione that is, had the same information (virtually none) and did different things about the situation. I NEVER said it wasn't an extremely painful topic or that he poured out his soul to Ginny, I said Ginny took action when she saw Harry was suffering, Hermione chided him for days. Ginny knew that it was extremely important to Harry's happiness and attitude that he talk to Sirius, and Hermione could see this as well. The difference is Ginny trusted that this was important enough without asking questions or reprimanding him as Hermione had.

BOOYAH!
(by the way, that's just the way I end posts now. it's fun.)

Grace Granger

July 30th, 2003, 4:22 pm

:eyebrows: :scared: She is GAGGED! Can't speak! Maybe Ginny was trying to free herself to help Harry and the others. It would have been nice if she could have loosen the gag problem was that the hands were also being on a tight grip. This all for the sake of nitpicking because that is what we are doing! :no:

Yes it's nitpicking. Sometimes you have to for certain SHIPs.

Because Neville needed to be left with Harry and he was the one who ended up carrying Hermione after she was hex.

Actually I meant 5 years down the line will Harry then acknowledge their loyalty. In any case why not Ron there to help support the R/Hr SHIP?

Basicly Ginny does not care enough to be affected by her family problems. She looked very sad and upset but she isn't actually affected. Oookkk :shrug: That is weird!

Oh, I'm not saying that Ginny doesn't care. I'm saying that Mrs. Weasley is having a harder time than Ginny in regards to Percy. And that because of this we cannot compare Ginny to Cho, who is suffering from the loss of a loved one. I only remember Ginny being sad once or twice in regards to Percy, Cho is crying on and off about Cedric.

He seemed quite upset and makes up with her when Hagrid mentions it and he gets his firebolt back. If he understood so well. Why not to talk to her? IMHO Harry doubts Hermione over the curse of the next books.

Because of Pride?

AvadaKedavra

July 30th, 2003, 4:23 pm

Okay, let's go through this again, as you seem to misunderstand me.

So where are his doubts? Only fears that all people speak about him and that include his best friends.

Harry fears that Hermione has been speaking about him. You say this above. Agreed?

If Harry had 100% trust in Hermione, then why would he fear this? He would say, no, not in a million times would Hermione speak about me! But he did fear this by your own admission, and this proves he doubted that Hermione would never ever speak about him, and this created his fear.

They are not the same thing, but in this case, they are LINKED.

I don't see how you can argue this further, unless I am misunderstanding something, which I would appreciate it if you pointed it out. :D

Quote:
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"Thanks for the book, Harry," she said happily, "I've been wanting that New Theory of Numerology for ages! And that perfume's really unusual, Ron"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think we all know this quote by now but I think this need a closer look. First Hermione do thank Harry for this book but the most interest part is she do name this book and say that she really wanted it. In other words Harry did a great job to give her that book and that she know he did listen to her. If Ron has really feelings for Hermione I did expect by now Ron get suspicious about Hermione and if she even like him that way. Because that what she do is more as tactless this one is IMO more tactless as Harrys date with Cho. Why? Because first Hermione say only to Harry thanks and say only to him that she really wanted this book and even name it that say she really like it if not love it. Or do you believe Harry don't know what a book it was what he gave her? So why name it? Now to this little, very little sentence which is about Ron's gift. Its said like as if its only by the way without any describtion, without any feelings in it. What I understand under feelings is this little part "for ages!" or "I've been wanting...". By this perfume part she don't say only unusual, what is already bad, she said really unusual, thats worst. The only way you could make it worst is to say I just don't like it.

I disagree completely. (surprise!)

I think this was deliberately intended by JKR to show us a bit of humour- Hermione's different reactions to different presents. Most girls would go "wooh!" over the perfume and say "that's really unusual" about the mathematical book.

I think in this case, JKR is illustrating how different Hermione is, a complete reverse of the stereotype "girl". (No sexist implications intended :p).

As for the "unusual" comment and the "cruelty" behind it, I can only offer my own interpretation.

For me, the problem is this.

Perfume, whilst it may be a quite good romantic present-i.e. the present in itself could be interpreted as romantic, but Hermione is also thinking about the person giving it. Ronald Weasley, giving a romantic present? Whilst she may know some of his feelings, or have her own suspicions, she is not 100% on the whole thing.

She might be wrong. It could turn out that Ron wasn't intending anything by the present, never feels anything for her, and never has. Now that would leave Hermione looking stupid. Hermione, who never has been wrong before. Hermione, the clever girl, messing something up for once. What would Ron react like? Oooh!

So, Hermione plays it cool, "that's really unusual, Ron".

I know it is bit silly, she could have been a "little" bit more appreciative, and encouraging Ron, but as I have said, in my opinion the first thing on Hermione's mind was being careful and not putting herself in an embarassing position, should Ron really not like her.

On the other hand, this is a triple edged comment. :D

(1) Could be interpreted the way that you have, cruelly.
(2) Could be interpreted the way I have, as playing it cool.

(3) Also could be interpreted as Hermione apprasing Ron. The perfume is unusual, as in rare. There is also no other (what's the name for it) mood showing- i.e happily, angrily, anxiously, etc. The only thing we have to go on is the previous one, the nearest one, happily. I suppose one could assume that the mood is carried on into the next sentence.

I think I will choose (2).

Signing out,

Avada

P.S

DAVYDEE!

you seem really enlightened the past few days, with some brilliant posts!
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: to infinity!
I must hand it to you, the "Harry has a friend" and your last post are purely brilliant.

(Sorry if I'm gushing a little, It's just I think a little Heronian backslapping is required after so much of Harmionan backslapping going on. :p)

EDIT

Just had to say something extra

:wow: FOUR R/Hr shippers posting after each other- now that's unheard of! Things are really looking up for the HMS Heron. :p

MoF

July 30th, 2003, 4:25 pm

I NEVER said it wasn't an extremely painful topic or that he poured out his soul to Ginny, I said Ginny took action when she saw Harry was suffering, Hermione chided him for days. Ginny knew that it was extremely important to Harry's happiness and attitude that he talk to Sirius, and Hermione could see this as well. The difference is Ginny trusted that this was important enough without asking questions or reprimanding him as Hermione had.

Harry never said to Hermione that he would like to talk to Sirius. Both Hermione and Ginny reacted the same way to Harry. See my earlier posts. The difference was that Harry told Ginny that he would like to see Sirius. He couldn't tell Hermione this, beacuse she would know why he would talk to Sirius. Ginny wouldn't figure that out, since she didn't know that he had stopped occlumency. Hermione didn't "chide" him for days. Hermione said he should resume occlumency, but Harry didn't tell her why he stopped. He just said that he had pretty much stopped having funny dreams. She also sensed something was wrong, but she assmued, like Ginny, that it had something to do with Cho.

jeanie beanie

July 30th, 2003, 4:25 pm

I have no doubts that Ron has a crush on Hermione but in 5 books she has not shown any real signs of liking him back. But their are a lot of signs of her liking Harry.

I agree that Ron's feelings regarding Hermione aren't really in doubt. But I don't buy that there are lots of signs of her liking Harry. I think that Hermione is a reserved kind of person and doesn't really show her deepest emotions unless pushed to the breaking point. (For example, her yelling at Ron in GoF after he picks a fight with her about going to the Yule Ball with Krum.) I think that it's much easier for her to interact with Harry on some levels because she perceives him as a friend and therefore, safer than Ron.

Ron is a complete blockhead and hasn't completely realized what is obvious to the reader - that he likes Hermione. All he knows is the that he has turbulent emotions when it comes to Hermione and the safest way he knows of expressing his feelings is through bickering. I think that he is beginning to mature and in the process his rolling mass of emotions are leveling out into separate threads.

Auror77

July 30th, 2003, 4:25 pm

Well, AvadaKedavra, when Hermione "smiled slightly" when she told Harry about Cho watching him, there's something that must be observed. She smiled SLIGHTLY. That "smile" could've been forced down from her. It could've been a weak one. A fake one. After all, Harry has made a few smiles like that before, I'm sure other characters can manage them too.

Fairydust

July 30th, 2003, 4:28 pm

jeanie beanie

July 30th, 2003, 4:33 pm

Hermione could've been amused by the whole thing. I mean, I find it somewhat amusing when my friends are at that awkward beginning stage of a relationship. Everything is so tense and every little expression carries such incredible weight. It's kind of funny, but you don't want your friend to know you find it funny, because it would really hurt her feelings. The result is a slight smile.

Mad Eye Mike

July 30th, 2003, 4:36 pm

Hey Mad Eye Mike, after reading your post i have to say that although i know what your trying say, i think your making it sound abit more dramatic (its not really the word to describe it, but i can't think at the moment) than that scene actually was, i know Hermione uses all these tones to say what shes thinking but i don't think she's saying it as harshly as what your implying, what your saying is that Hermione is not at all happy about Harry kissing Cho, well when i first read that bit, (before i even came on to these boards and read everyones view on things) thats not the impression i got. i think if she was really all that harsh about it, then Harry would have noticed, he would have wondered why she was being really weird about it, he probably would have thought that it wasn't to much to ask for Hermione to at least be happy for him. but no he doesn't, either he misses her tones completely and even he isn't that thick, or she wasn't as hard on him about as you think.thanks

Buckbeat - The thing is that if you were to act out that scene in real life, it plays just like I presented it. Another thing, Harry did recognize Hermione's actions (because he describes them), he just didn't put any thought into what they meant - and yes, Harry is that thick. Also, when have you ever seen Harry ASK Hermione to be happy for him? That is not his nature. Hermione was not happy about hearing Harry kissed Cho, that much is clear from the text. However if you don't want to see it that way, that's fine with me...and you're welcomed.

Gilyann - If the definition of 'briskly' you provided, you focused only on the first meaning which is 'speed'. You completely ignored the second meaning which was:

2. Keen or sharp in speech or manner: a brisk greeting.

In the context of the entire PK scene, it's more likely Hermione was sharp in tone rather than lively or energetic - especially after being businesslike right before that.

To bean counter Mad Eye Mike: it seems that Hawk and Ecthelion are exhausting the funds of the Harmony by investing in expensive weapons and celebrity referees to endorse a deathmatch between a Teletubby(/ie) and Barney. No doubt you will want to send a goblin or two after them, just to keep them in line. :angel:

Thank you Earendil for bringing this to my attention. You're not the first person who's complained to me about what's going on in the 00division of the HMS Harmony. Everyone was so quick to join Hawk's outfit based on his promises (lies) and a cool agent name (00) that they completely disregarded the fact Hawk was already under investigation. I will have to confer with Turambar, Sirius and Perdita on what should be done about the 00division.

Stay on the right path Earendil and you will go far on the HMS Harmony. :agree:

Oh, and I'm going to assume bean counter is 00-speak for "Fearless Leader" :p

GilyAnn

July 30th, 2003, 4:36 pm

Yes it's nitpicking. Sometimes you have to for certain SHIPs.

Meaning it has to be done to disprove a ship? :eyebrows:

Actually I meant 5 years down the line will Harry then acknowledge their loyalty. In any case why not Ron there to help support the R/Hr SHIP?

Because she needs NEVILLE! This has NOTHING to do with shipping. It's about the prophecy that no one exept Harry and Neville had something to do with.

Oh, I'm not saying that Ginny doesn't care. I'm saying that Mrs. Weasley is having a harder time than Ginny in regards to Percy. And that because of this we cannot compare Ginny to Cho, who is suffering from the loss of a loved one. I only remember Ginny being sad once or twice in regards to Percy, Cho is crying on and off about Cedric.

Yes Cho is suffering. She is suffering when she comes blushinly to the train, when she never get's her eyes off Harry, when she flirts with him in the DA meetings, when she kisses him and tells him that she likes him, when she tries to get him to invite her to hogsmade for Valentines day, when she follows him etc. I really see Cho suffering here. For a girl that lost her boyfriend she sure does seem that she is attacking Harry too strong.

Because of Pride?

Hmm I doubt it.

Gily Ann

Edit:

Gilyann - If the definition of 'briskly' you provided, you focused only on the first meaning meaning which is 'speed'. You completely ignored the second meaning which was:

No I didn't because being being keen or sharp is being

Keen:
Having a fine, sharp cutting edge or point.
Having or marked by intellectual quickness and acuity

and sharp is:

Having clear form and detail:

Both definitions qualify as a clear form of doing something. I though it was clear on my post. Sorry for not including the definition.
I didn't leave it out.

sone

July 30th, 2003, 4:36 pm

I doubt it jeanie beanie. Not after hearing about Cho and Harry kissing.

AvadaKedavra

July 30th, 2003, 4:36 pm

fairydust and jeanie beanie, forgot to mention- in the heat of posting,

WELCOME to the HMS Heron!

This is the R/Hr ship, and I hope that you enjoy your stay!

:D

Fairydust

July 30th, 2003, 4:37 pm

crazy, yes. R/H yes.

Daveydee

July 30th, 2003, 4:38 pm

:tu: Big picture, AK. Big picture. How's that sig coming along?

Echo that big :welcome: to all new shipmates.

Now MoF and GryffindorGal - your earlier posts.

It's not a simple as 'opposites attract' and 'antagonism'.

Sure, JK, set Ron and Hermione up as extremely antagonistic; and to be honest things between them probably got worse before getting better.

But, getting better it is. In fact, JK is quite cleverly using the relationship between Ron and Hermione to underscore one of the major themes of her book. How differences of opinion can be treated with tolerance and seemingly irreconcilible differences can be overcome, in the name of love and harmony (small h!)

FlyingPhoenix

July 30th, 2003, 4:40 pm

If Harry had 100% trust in Hermione, then why would he fear this? He would say, no, not in a million times would Hermione speak about me! But he did fear this by your own admission, and this proves he doubted that Hermione would never ever speak about him, and this created his fear.

Harry know she speaks about him remember in GoF our old pale Krum and his famouse sentence "She speaks alote about you!" So he has fears that she might speak about bad things, something what in GoF wasn't the case. His friends never needed to defend him in front of other students and tell them they lie about Harry. Thats the case now. Off course this give Harry fears thats normal.

About this perfume if it that case than why didn't she even say thank you Ron? This is for me a strange joke if you ask me. I didn't laugh about it maybe that Ron gave her a perfume because by now he know she is a girl but the ironic part is she don't like it. But I doubt this is helpfully for Hr--->R

AvadaKedavra

July 30th, 2003, 4:45 pm

NOOOOOOO!

I mean Harry fears that Hermione will be talking about him in a negative way, as you've admitted yourself.

If he trusted her completely, he wouldn't even question/fear this. So therefore he does not trust her completely, by your own admission.

Case closed. :p

I am in hysterics :rotfl: at how the growing split in the HMS Harmony is manifesting itself upon our screens. May the battle between Hawk and Mad Eye continue at our amusement, and sink the Harmony.

:p

Signing out,

Avada

Fairydust

July 30th, 2003, 4:47 pm

what are teh ships exactly? i would like to be on the R/H ship and H/G ship.

Grace Granger

July 30th, 2003, 4:51 pm

Meaning it has to be done to disprove a ship? :eyebrows:

Right now I'm honestly nitpicking to disprove your SHIP.

Because she needs NEVILLE! This has NOTHING to do with shipping. It's about the prophecy that no one exept Harry and Neville had something to do with.

It doesn't. How the heck did we get here? I think it had something to do with Hermione's loyalty.

Yes Cho is suffering. She is suffering when she comes blushinly to the train, when she never get's her eyes off Harry, when she flirts with him in the DA meetings, when she kisses him and tells him that she likes him, when she tries to get him to invite her to hogsmade for Valentines day, when she follows him etc. I really see Cho suffering here. For a girl that lost her boyfriend she sure does seem that she is attacking Harry too strong.

I think you should go back and check what Hermione said to Harry in the PKA scene. Because the girl is confused about her liking Harry when Cedric just kicked the bucket.

Mike! Since you're on, I'd like to tell you that your avatar scares the **** out of me! :upset:

sone

July 30th, 2003, 4:57 pm

Cho was even blushing when they were getting on the train back to London. Harry has not seen the last of Cho yet.

Fairydust

July 30th, 2003, 4:59 pm

Cho might still have feelings for Harry, but Harry no longer has feelings for Cho. When Sirius died his old feelings pretty much died, too. it's not going to be H/C. it's going to be H/G...:agree:

FlyingPhoenix

July 30th, 2003, 5:04 pm

I mean Harry fears that Hermione will be talking about him in a negative way, as you've admitted yourself.

If he trusted her completely, he wouldn't even question/fear this. So therefore he does not trust her completely, by your own admission.

I didn't say he don't trust her. I did say he has fear that she might speak about him not in a positive neither in a negative way. Just speak about him in case to defend him. Something she never needed before but by now she might need to tell people he is a nice guy and explain why she is even friend with him. Thats the fear by Harry that other people might speak about him or better attack his friends because of him, because of his "lies".

Between: There isn't any split in HMS Harmony.

sPtProphecy1

July 30th, 2003, 5:06 pm

I came into this forum with one theory for Harry's love life, yet now after hearing all of these logical possibilities, the only thing I can count on is that anything can happen in book six. My only question is this: despite the growing rumors of Harry/Ginny and Harry/Hermione, is it really over for Harry and, um, perhaps the girl he had been obsessed with since his fourth year? It just seems odd that after so much hype over this crush in book four, and now with the confirmation that Cho feels the same way for Harry in the fifth book, why would such a logical scenerio suddenly evaporate because of H/G or H/Hr? In my view, Harry and Cho are perfect for eachother. They are both emotionally unstable and are in need of some sort of comfort, coming off the heels of the deaths of Cedric and the (devestating) death of Sirius. And yes, you could make the point that between the order members, the weasleys, Hermione and Hagrid that Harry has all the comfort he needs, yet this is clearly insufficient, as whenever Harry is around them, he wishes to be alone. Due to the feelings Harry and Cho (still?) have for eachother, their comparable losses and the hype from previous books, what do you think the chances of this relationship finally blossoming are?

jeanie beanie

July 30th, 2003, 5:06 pm

Thanks y'all for welcoming me aboard. :D

Mad Eye Mike I found your post on Hermione's reaction to Cho kissing Harry quite interesting. I think it's funny that two people read the exact same passage and come away with completely different impressions. I want to respond to your post, but please keep in mind that I'm at work and don't have my book here, nor can I devote a lot of time to this response without landing in hot water!

I picture Hermione has being one of those people who is always business like and wants to get down to brass tacks as quickly as possible. When Harry comes in he is dazed and not focused on the what's going on right at the moment. Hermione is speaking briskly in an attempt to get Harry to focus and get on with telling her and Ron what happened.

I didn't think that Hermione's questions about if they kissed was out of character for a friend trying to get the story from another friend. Throughout the book, it's clear that Hermione has a better understanding of what's going on between Harry and Cho than Harry does. I think that she also knows Cho a little better than Harry. She probably had some inkling of what Cho was going to do when she loitered after the lesson was over.

As for the frown, I think it was more an expression of concern for Harry than an expression of displeasure. She's worried that Harry obviously isn't his ususual self.

And on to your take of the "Of course you're not" statement. This was simply a statement of positive reinforcement from one friend to another. For instance, when one of my friends says she's fat, I immediately respond with "of course you're not!" You don't say "I dobut it" or "I don't think so."

Hermione's vagueness could have been because she didn't want to say anything against Cho. I know that some people will use this to say, well, that proves that she likes Harry, but I think it's more a case of her biting her tongue out of friendship.

Last one, and then I have to run. Besides, this is getting too long. When Hermione asks Harry if he was nice to Cho, my take on this is that Hermione knows that Cho is emotionally fragile and knowing what a blockhead Harry can be, wants reassurance that Harry was kind Cho. She knows Cho needs kindness and understanding in a relationship right now.

Okay, it's just about quitting time, so I'm outta here. Til tomorrow! :p

sone

July 30th, 2003, 5:08 pm

Fairydust, I did not say it was going to be Harry/Cho. I just said that Harry has not seen the last of Cho. I might add, I do not mean that in a good way.

Mad Eye Mike

July 30th, 2003, 5:10 pm

I am in hysterics :rotfl: at how the growing split in the HMS Harmony is manifesting itself upon our screens. May the battle between Hawk and Mad Eye continue at our amusement, and sink the Harmony.

Not a chance as the HMS Harmony is much, much stronger than that. If our ship could sink based on a little disagreement, it wouldn't be any kind of ship now would it? :p

Mike! Since you're on, I'd like to tell you that your avatar scares the **** out of me! :upset:

Great! Then it had the desired affect I was going for. :evil:

DumbledoreTheWise

July 30th, 2003, 5:14 pm

Harry never said to Hermione that he would like to talk to Sirius. Both Hermione and Ginny reacted the same way to Harry. See my earlier posts. The difference was that Harry told Ginny that he would like to see Sirius. He couldn't tell Hermione this, beacuse she would know why he would talk to Sirius. Ginny wouldn't figure that out, since she didn't know that he had stopped occlumency. Hermione didn't "chide" him for days. Hermione said he should resume occlumency, but Harry didn't tell her why he stopped. He just said that he had pretty much stopped having funny dreams. She also sensed something was wrong, but she assmued, like Ginny, that it had something to do with Cho.

Sorry, wrong.
Yep, I used the word wrong.......here's the proof to back it up. Hermione DID know he planned on talking to Sirius. Here are some references since you obviously need them. All pages references are US version.
pg. 657
"Hey," said a voice in Harry's ear. He looked around; Fred and George had come to join them. "Ginny's had a word with us about you," said Fred, stretching out his legson the table in front of them and causing several booklets on careers with the Ministry of Magic to slide off onto the floor. "She says you need to talk to Sirius?"
"What?" said Hermione sharply, freezing with her hand halfway toward picking up MAKE A BANG AT THE DEPARTMENT OF MAGICAL ACCIDENTS AND CATASTROHPES.
"Yeah," said Harry, trying to sound casual, "yeah, i thought I'd like-"
"Don't be so ridiculous," said Hermione, straightening up and looking at him as though she could not believe her eyes. "With Umbridge groping around in the fires and frisking all the owls?"
then later..........
pg. 658
"And if we're going to be causing a bit of uproar, why not do it so that Harry can have his chat with Sirius?"
"Yes but still," said Hermione, with an air of explaining sometihng very simple to somebody very obtuse, " even if you do cause a diversion, how is Harry supposed to talk to him?"
"Umbridge's office," said Harry quietly. .......(I cut out a line here of harry thinking)
"Are-you-insane?" said Hermione in a hushed voice.
"i don't hink so," said Harry shrugging.
"And how are you going to get in there in the first place?"
Harry was ready for this question.
"Sirius' knife," he said.
"Excuse me?"
"Christmas before last Sirius gave me a knife than'll open any lock," said Harry. "So even if she has bewitched the door so Alohomora won't work, which I bet she has--"
"What do you think about this?" Hermione demanded of Ron and Harry was reminded irresistably of Mrs. Weasley appealing to her husband Harry's fist dinner at Grimmauld Place.

here comes more......ready?

pg. 660
"Harry had not expected the day to be a peaceful one, but he had not reckone don Hermione's almost continual attempts to dissuade him from what he was planning to do at five o'clock. For the first time ever, she was atleast as innattentive to Professor Binns in History of Magic as Harry and Ron were, keeping up a stream of whispered admonitions that Harry tried very hard to ignore.
"....and if she does catch you there, apart from being expelled, she'll be able to guess you've been talking to Snuffles and this time I expect she'll FORCE you to take Veritaserum and answer her questions...."
"Hermione," said Ron in a low and indignant voice, "are you going to stop tellling Harry off and listen to Binns or do I have to take notes instead?"
"You take notes for a change, it won't kill you!"
By the time they had reached the dungeons, neither Harry nor Ron was speaking to Hermione any longer. Undetterred, she took advantage of their silence to maintain an uninterrupted flow of dire warnings, all muttered under her breath in a vehement hiss that caused Seamus to waste five whole minutes checking his cauldron for leaks.

page 667.
"Dumbledore sacrificed himself to keep you in school, Harry!" whispered Hermione, raising her book to hide her face from Umbridge. "And if you get thrown out today it will have been for nothing!"
(skip a few lines...)
"Harry don't do it, please don't do it!" Hermione said in anguished tones as the bell rang at the end of class.
later on.....
"Harry-please!" said Hermione weakly.

all of that tells me that she did know Harry wanted to talk to Sirius. And according to H/Hr shippers, they are close enough for her to gage Harry's needs and feelings. That seems to be missing in the book at the point where he is most destperate.........
hmmmmmmm.......

and a BOOYAH! for good measure.

Earendil

July 30th, 2003, 5:14 pm

Originally posted by Daveydee
Sure, JK, set Ron and Hermione up as extremely antagonistic; and to be honest things between them probably got worse before getting better.
The difference is that Ron and Hermione are not only antagonistic to each other, they are disrespectful, demeaning, and downright rude at times. Over a seven part series, it makes little sense to have their relationship turn around and become harmonious and peaceful with only two books left. In OotP, there is less tense bickering and more "just shut up" type of fights. Other than that, there is no evidence to indicate that Ron and Hermione are showing more respect and consideration for each other. They repeatedly continue to argue and bicker, though in a different and possibly even more hurtful way than before.

To answer Daveydee's question from a few pages back, I personally think that Ron and Hermione's friendship has been developed to be antagonistic from the beginning to represent the two sides to Harry's conscience. As his two best friends, they provide two drastically different viewpoints for him to consider in every situation. Ron is laid-back; Hermione is up-tight. Ron is hot-tempered; Hermione is level-headed. Ron worries about embarassing himself by speaking up; Hermione unconditionally stands up for what she believes in. The list goes on and on: without these two conflicting viewpoints, Harry--who lies somewhere in between--would not be forced to consider the two sides to every situation. This, as you can tell, has nothing to do with shipping. I do not believe that JKR made Ron and Hermione antagonistic for the sole purpose of reversing this and having them fall madly in love with each other. Not only is this unrealistic and hackneyed; it would defeat the purpose of creating two such drastically different sidekicks for her hero.

If he trusted her completely, he wouldn't even question/fear this. So therefore he does not trust her completely, by your own admission.

Right. Then, by that definition, he doesn't trust Ron, Ginny, or the rest of the Weasleys. Remember Christmas at 12GP: he shut himself in his room because he feared that they were talking about him behind his back about being possessed by Voldemort, and he had doubts about their trust in him. He also doesn't trust Dumbledore, because he feared that Dumbledore was ignoring him and keeping him out of the loop deliberately and he doubted that Dumbledore had a good reason for his strange behavior all year. Who then does Harry trust, if he fears and doubts the people closest to him?

AK, never underestimate the strength of the Harmony. Once bean counter Mad Eye Mike has restricted the 00 Division from hiring Barney and the Wiggles, it's even smoother sailing from here to the horizon. ;)

Fairydust

July 30th, 2003, 5:15 pm

potterfreak24

July 30th, 2003, 5:23 pm

OK, I just had to jump in to answer DaveeDee's question a while ago about r/h antagonistic battles with each other, and what do I think they mean:

To me I saw/see Ron and Hermione as acting like battling sides of Harry's conscience. If you have ever seen a movie or tv show where a devil appears on someone's shoulder, and an angel appears on the other shoulder....that's Ron and Hermione. They are there to help Harry see both the logic and then fun side. Which one is the angel and devil...I have to go back and write an essay on that one.

Also in reference to the pairing of Ron/Hermione together. I think that a few H/hr shipers have posted this question...and to my knowledge it hasnt ever been answered

Anti- H/Hr shippers say that the hero getting the heroine is cliche. I agree. Find me a situation though where the hero has a sidekick and still gets the girl. And since we are talking about cliche's about couplings: Sidekickers have plenty. One world famous one would be Star Wars. So having JKR go that route, personally would ruin the HP series for me..because the sidekick thing isn't original. To me it's a cop out.

Fairydust

July 30th, 2003, 5:26 pm

Earendil

July 30th, 2003, 5:26 pm

Originally posted by DumbledoreTheWise
all of that tells me that she did know Harry wanted to talk to Sirius. And according to H/Hr shippers, they are close enough for her to gage Harry's needs and feelings. That seems to be missing in the book at the point where he is most destperate.........

And no one was presuming that Hermione didn't know that Harry wanted to speak to Sirius specifically. What my shipmates were saying was that she didn't know that Harry wanted to speak to Sirius about his father. She didn't know that this was a deep personal issue about resolving his perception of his father's character.

FlyingPhoenix

July 30th, 2003, 5:27 pm

DumbledoreTheWise :

Sorry but I don't get why you think MoF is wrong. All what he said is that The difference was that Harry told Ginny that he would like to see Sirius. He couldn't tell Hermione this, beacuse she would know why he would talk to Sirius. Ginny wouldn't figure that out, since she didn't know that he had stopped occlumency. Hermione didn't "chide" him for days. Hermione said he should resume occlumency, but Harry didn't tell her why he stopped. He just said that he had pretty much stopped having funny dreams. She also sensed something was wrong, but she assmued, like Ginny, that it had something to do with Cho.
Thats right because Harry did not tell Hermione he wanted speak to Sirius. She hear only as everything is settled and everything planed. So Harry was first with Ron and Hermione together: She ask is something wrong? His answer No. She think its because of Cho, she did saw her. Now scene change to the library Ginny turns up: Something wrong, she ask? I just want to talk with someone, he answer. She guess with Cho. He said no with Sirius.

See Hermione didn't know about Harrys need to speak with Sirius because if he did tell her first she might have ask why? A question which Harry don't want answer, what I already explained before.

So MoF isn't wrong.

Thanks

DumbledoreTheWise

July 30th, 2003, 5:30 pm

She didn't chide him for days? Read the above post.

and a BOOYAH for good measure.
gotta love the booyahs

Perdita

July 30th, 2003, 5:32 pm

it could be a half smile. you know one of those, i know "i know i shouldn't but i can't help smiling" smiles. like those smirks only it's not supposed to be mean or anything. it's supposed to be cute. that's how i interpreted that smile she gave. it didn't say that her smile faltered. it meant that she smiled slightly. big difference.

No, I disagree. Smiling slightly is simply that, a slight smile. If she were trying to keep from grinning or playfully smirking like your description suggests, JKR would have described it to convey just that.

She has done so too, right here in ch 23 "Christmas on the Closed Ward." It says:

'Maybe you're taking turns to look, and keep missing each other,' suggested Hermione, the corners of her mouth twitching.

That is how JKR describes the ' "i know i shouldn't but i can't help smiling" smiles.'

This means that the "slight" smile is just that. It's not a playful grin or broad teasing smile. Just a slight one. This suggests that Hermione is trying to act happy rather than actually being very happy for Harry.

Mad Eye Mike

July 30th, 2003, 5:32 pm

The side kick and the other sidekick would work. The side kick heroine and the hero, no. it just shouldn't happen. Harry and Hermione are not suited. While R/H is like snap crackle pop. H/H is just like cold oat meal. i don't see the chemistry between H/H. R/H...now there's chemistry.

:no: There's tension between R/Hr because of Ron's feelings. Chemistry is what H/Hr have.

:rotfl: @ all the people my avatar is scaring.

Fairydust

July 30th, 2003, 5:39 pm

I see no chemistry with H/H. I feel no chemistry between them. In the movies I will admit that it seems like H/H because of the chemistry Dan and Emma have, but I don't think the characters of Harry and Hermione have a chemistry. Ron and Hermione, there's tension and chemistry. They just have something.

FlyingPhoenix

July 30th, 2003, 5:45 pm

She didn't chide him for days? Read the above post.

Well, you quote wrong thats the problem:

Chapter 29: "But why haven't you got Occlumency lessons any more?" said Hermione frowning. "I've told you," Harry muttered," Snape reckons I can carry on by myself now I've got the basics." "So you've stopped having funny dreams?" said Hermione sceptically. "Pretty much," said Harry not looking at her

Thats after Harry saw how his father was really so the Occlumeny lesson did end. Now Hermione do later annoy him everyday after she get he has still funny dreams.
So she didn't chide him for days because Harry end this lessons only the last chapter.

You did quote after Harry meets Ginny in the libary but MoF is speaking about before the libary as Harry talk with Hermione and later in the libary with Ginny.

EDIT: I like your avatar Mike. I don't think its scary its kinda black humor

Mad Eye Mike

July 30th, 2003, 5:50 pm

Fairydust,

Chemistry isn't tension. It isn't going back and forth in an argument. It's how well two people get along, how they relate to each other and how well they work together.

R/Hr don't work well together. Oh sure they argue all the time, but that's because their personalities are clashing, not because it's a playful sparring type of thing.

H/Hr don't argue so everyone assumes that equates to their relationship having no passion. That's far from the truth.

Finally, someone appreciates my avatar. Thank you Phoenix. :clap:

No one has commented on my sig though. C'mon people, scary little girl sitting all by her lonesome in a big white room...no, nothing? Okay, moving on...

noddwyd

July 30th, 2003, 5:52 pm

DtW: yeah, and she would have reacted to it quite differently, had she known why he wanted to talk to Sirius so badly. off topic, but the thing that really ticked me off about this whole thing, was that Harry could have easily talked to Sirius without any of the risks he took. He had the mirror, and never even used it until it was too late.

I would like to point out that all of the canonical evidence everyone is using in this thread can be interpreted differently to suit each ships needs, and that the only certain thing about the next two books will undoubtably be uncertainty. Its the reason I don't like entering these debates. But don't let that deter you, this thread has certainly been an amusing read so far, and most all the posts have been great.
The reason I am against R/Hr is because of the way it would affect Harry, and let me just say, I see the series getting much, much darker for him if this occurs, and friendship alone may not be enough for him to snap out of it.

FlyingPhoenix

July 30th, 2003, 5:59 pm

Mike this girl looks like as if its in the madhouse or on the electricaly-chair. Sorry but it looks like that. Its interest yeah and thats why I think its ironic, in a strange way ironic

Fairydust

July 30th, 2003, 6:00 pm

MoF

July 30th, 2003, 6:06 pm

DDTheWise:
We seem to be misunderstanding each other, I am quoting what you said earlier:
I said Ginny took action when she saw Harry was suffering, Hermione chided him for days.

My point was that Hermione couldn't take action beacuse Harry didn't tell her, and she didn't know about Sirius (until he had set the plan in motion).
Hermione didn't chide him for days when she saw that he was sad, she wanted to help him (as I quoted earlier from the book). But she chided him about his plans, not his emotions. Hermioendidn't know that the reason he was sad also was the reason he would like to talk to Sirius. Hermione didn't know about Snape's memories.

And FlyingPhoenix and Earendil, thanks for the support :clap:

FlyingPhoenix

July 30th, 2003, 6:06 pm

Thanks to you I see a bat in my room. All because of your sig.

Well, I disagree. R/Hr don't have chemistry they don't have everything. Yeah kinda tension but not chemistry. if you just look at GoF for an example for H/Hr chemistry as Hermione smiled at Harry through the Yule Ball thats kinda chemistry. Or at COS as Harry meets Hermione at Gringotts.

AvadaKedavra

July 30th, 2003, 6:07 pm

While R/H is like snap crackle pop. H/H is just like cold oat meal

:rotfl: Hahaha, I love that sort of warped imagination! :tu: for Fairydust!

Mad Eye No one's mentioned your signature because it's too freaky, and all things that we don't like, we repress them back in our subconcsious. I've a half mind to report it to a mod. :p

Talking of sigs, I'm sure that you'll love mine. :evil:

(By the way, in order for the split in the HMS Harmony to be resolved, Hawk will have to back down. Yes, I see a blue moon, and pigs flying across the sky. :D)

No playful sparring?

Take a look at this, (this is midway through OOTP, after the first DA meeting).

"That was really, really good, Harry," said Hermione, when finally it was just her, Harry and Ron left.
"Yeah, it was!" said Ron enthusiastically, as they slipped out of the door and watched it melt back into stone behind them. "Did you see me disarm Hermione, Harry?"
"Only once," said Hermione, stung. "I got you loads more than you got me-"
"I did not only get you once, I got you at least three times--"
"Well, if you're counting the one where you tripped over your own feet and knocked the wand out of my hand--"
They argued all the way back to the common room.....

I'm sorry but I defnitely think this falls in the "Playful Sparring" category. The thing is, H/Hr also say that Hermione becomes bored of Ron and cuts off the argument quickly- well in this instance for once, they "argued all the way back to the common room".

This falls in nicely with my theory of subsitution, and falls in nicely with Davydee's statement of the progression of their relationship. This type of "playful sparring" proves that R/Hr is getting much better.

:p

Signing out,

Avada

GilyAnn

July 30th, 2003, 6:15 pm

Right now I'm honestly nitpicking to disprove your SHIP.

Ok this is silly!. Let's get on with real subjects.

It doesn't. How the heck did we get here? I think it had something to do with Hermione's loyalty.

You were the one who asked why was Neville with them. I answered you!

I think you should go back and check what Hermione said to Harry in the PKA scene. Because the girl is confused about her liking Harry when Cedric just kicked the bucket.

I know what Hermione said. But still for a person that just had his boyfriend kick the bucket a little while ago. She was fast blushing to Harry.

To me I saw/see Ron and Hermione as acting like battling sides of Harry's conscience. If you have ever seen a movie or tv show where a devil appears on someone's shoulder, and an angel appears on the other shoulder....that's Ron and Hermione. They are there to help Harry see both the logic and then fun side. Which one is the angel and devil...I have to go back and write an essay on that one.

:lol: I totally agree on this. That's why I don't see any triangle coming.

Anti- H/Hr shippers say that the hero getting the heroine is cliche. I agree. Find me a situation though where the hero has a sidekick and still gets the girl. And since we are talking about cliche's about couplings: Sidekickers have plenty. One world famous one would be Star Wars. So having JKR go that route, personally would ruin the HP series for me..because the sidekick thing isn't original. To me it's a cop out.

Ok You put starwars and You lost me. Can you explain to me this again. I apologize for my stupidity. I hate that movie.

See Hermione didn't know about Harrys need to speak with Sirius because if he did tell her first she might have ask why? A question which Harry don't want answer, what I already explained before.

I think the main reason why Harry never told Hermione or Ron because he knew what their reaction would be. Hermione would have told him that it wasn't possible and would have question him something he clearly didn't want to share.

This means that the "slight" smile is just that. It's not a playful grin or broad teasing smile. Just a slight one. This suggests that Hermione is trying to act happy rather than actually being very happy for Harry.

It was clear to me that in that scene Hermione was teasing.

I see no chemistry with H/H. I feel no chemistry between them. In the movies I will admit that it seems like H/H because of the chemistry Dan and Emma have, but I don't think the characters of Harry and Hermione have a chemistry. Ron and Hermione, there's tension and chemistry. They just have something.

:agree: There is something between them.

Gily Ann

Hope1272

July 30th, 2003, 6:22 pm

To answer Davey's question, I think that there is more than one reason to Hermione and Ron's antagonist behavior to each other.

1. The personalities that JKR created are very different, hold different ideas and ethics, so the clashing is natural. It's also entertaining at some points, although I heartily agreed with Harry when he told them to knock it off.

2. Like my fellow H/Hr shippers, I also believe that Hermione and Ron are also sides of Harry's mind. It's a break from a continual internal monologue if we hear the opposing thoughts voiced by others.

3. Direct and misdirect. One pattern that seems to hold in the series is the one where Ron voices a theory about the current mystery at hand and Hermione disagrees. Ron's theories are usually based on the obvious clues and his feelings about the person in question. Ron's theories plant the seeds of speculation for the reader. They are for the most part entirely plausible and at times, turn out to be correct. But then we have Hermione, who provides the facts that we, Harry and Ron may be forgetting or aren't aware of yet, thus directing us sometimes completely the other way or providing yet another speculation to go with. One example I can think of is in POA. Harry and the reader's attention are drawn to Crookshanks and Scabbers repeatedly throughout the book. But we/Harry are so distracted by Ron and Hermione's arguements about them that we are suprised when the final reveal is made about who Scabbers really is, but realize that the clues were there the whole time. Or another regular one is Ron's theories of Snape being behind the dark happenings around them. By throwing Snape continually out as a suspect, the readers are reminded of Snape's questionable past but then are redirected by Hermione's insistance of his innocence through other facts or faith in Dumbledore's backing of Snape. Ron and Hermione's bickering is a wonderful/terrible distraction for the reader because JKR is able to slip in her clues and still leave us wondering.

AK, I guess I have a different perspective on the Hermione/Harry scene regarding his outburst concerning her statement that Lavender didn't believe his story about Voldemort. One of the changes we've seen in Harry early in the book is the anger and the enormous chip on his shoulder. Harry is still hurt from the arguement he had with Seamus the night before and is rather frustrated about Seamus's rapid departure that morning because he is looking to finish it or find another fight. He is also now coming to grips with the full impact of what the Daily Prophet and Fudge have done to him. They have destroyed his credibility and ridiculed him for telling the truth while a Dark Lord prepares to destroy them all. At this point it doesn't matter if Hermione says the sky is blue, Harry is looking for a way to vent off that hurt and anger and he lashes out. He knows that Hermione would never talk about him in that manner, but at the moment he needs someone to vent against and unfortunately it's Hermione. She knows this and this is why she responds by calmly telling him to stop jumping down their throats and reminds him that they are on his side. He knows it too because he apologizes and they move on. I find the scene not so much as a question of loyalty but one that sets the tone for the rest of the chapter and most of the book as being the beginning very hard road for Harry with the reminder that he is not alone.

Mike, that is freaky and I usually don't make comments on avatars. But it beats the dreaded Teletubbies any day of the week ;)

GryffindorGal

July 30th, 2003, 6:27 pm

R/H have chemistry. When they aren't verbally sparring then they seem to get along swimmingly. They have their moments when they glance at each other and sort of know what's going on. Is it not something that everytime there's a partner pairing activity Ron and Harry use to always team up. This book Ron teamed up with Hermione. i think that's a subtle hint. and Mad Eye Mike, your siggy's pretty freaky, too.

Canon says that they are arguing. Sparring and/or bantering would imply that they are enjoying what they are doing. That's its playful. The words that JKR uses in describing their arguments all throughout the series to date are anything but playful.

FlyingPhoenix

July 30th, 2003, 6:29 pm

For me were the Teletubbies scary. Ah *shudder*

I think Hope did hit the nail perfectly about Lavender and Seamus. Exactly what I thought but I was too stupid to say

Buckbeak

July 30th, 2003, 6:35 pm

While R/H is like snap crackle pop. H/H is just like cold oat meal

What????

Talking of sigs, I'm sure that you'll love mine. :evil:

I do love your sig but its just wishful think im afraid

[b]
No playful sparring?

Take a look at this, (this is midway through OOTP, after the first DA meeting).

[b]
"That was really, really good, Harry," said Hermione, when finally it was just her, Harry and Ron left.
"Yeah, it was!" said Ron enthusiastically, as they slipped out of the door and watched it melt back into stone behind them. "Did you see me disarm Hermione, Harry?"
"Only once," said Hermione, stung. "I got you loads more than you got me-"
"I did not only get you once, I got you at least three times--"
"Well, if you're counting the one where you tripped over your own feet and knocked the wand out of my hand--"
They argued all the way back to the common room.....

I'm sorry but I defnitely think this falls in the "Playful Sparring" category. The thing is, H/Hr also say that Hermione becomes bored of Ron and cuts off the argument quickly- well in this instance for once, they "argued all the way back to the common room".

This falls in nicely with my theory of subsitution, and falls in nicely with Davydee's statement of the progression of their relationship. This type of "playful sparring" proves that R/Hr is getting much better.

Look is it just so impossible to believe that Ron and Hermione are friends? This 'playful sparring' as you call it, do you also mean they were flirting with eachother? cause its possible, still don't mean anything though cause male and female friends can flirt inocently with out it meaning anything romotely romantic. God can't Ron and Hermione have one conversation that won't be brought up to support your ship. first your going on about how their constant arguing means that they love each other, then you say that their little friendly chats mean they love each other, well im sorry i see it in neither.
If it had been Harry and Hermione who had had that conversation, would you have thought them to be 'playfully sparring'?

Oh and thanks Flying pheonix for your tips on the glowing words as you can see they've gone to great use. ;)

haycheng

July 30th, 2003, 6:35 pm

Have mid-term tomorrow, so I just stop by and say great post everyone. :clap: :clap:
:frown: Now the Teletubbies is gone but Mike bring in demons!! Hay used his holy cross, holy water and wood sword to terminate the demones. Evil must be sent back to hell. :frown:

Fairydust

July 30th, 2003, 6:36 pm

They argue but they also spar. Is it not also something that everytime they are "arguing" in OotP Harry is reminded of an old married couple? Hello...foreshadowing.

potterfreak24

July 30th, 2003, 6:41 pm

Fairy Dust:
Regarding the Harry is reminded of a married couple everytime that Ron/Hermione argue. i am only aware of it happening once in Ootp. Also I think that you'll be hard pressed to find a married couple that argue over IMO nitpicky things in real life.

EricaM

July 30th, 2003, 6:46 pm

I'm sorry but I defnitely think this falls in the "Playful Sparring" category. The thing is, H/Hr also say that Hermione becomes bored of Ron and cuts off the argument quickly- well in this instance for once, they "argued all the way back to the common room".

I'm sorry, but there is nothing playful about being stung by a comment. Where are the words that indicate to you that Ron and Hermione are having fun in that verbal exchange. Is it the smile on thier faces? The laughter in there voice?

R/H have chemistry. When they aren't verbally sparring then they seem to get along swimmingly. They have their moments when they glance at each other and sort of know what's going on. Is it not something that everytime there's a partner pairing activity Ron and Harry use to always team up.

Harry and Hermione verbally sparring:

'But Harry, you've just said it,' said Hermione fiercely, 'Dumbledore wanted you to learn to shut these things out of your mind, if you'd done Occlumency properly you'd never have seen this -'

'IF YOU THINK I'M JUST GOING TO ACTLIKE I HAVEN'T SEEN-'

'Sirius told you there was nothing more important than you learning to close your mind!'

'WELL, I EXPECT HE'D SAY SOMETHING DIFFERENT IF HE KNEW WHAT I'D JUST -'

Harry and Hermione getting along swimmingly:

'You know what these remind me of?'
'No, what's that?'
'The Death Eater's scars. Voldemort touches one of them, and all their scars burn, and they know they've got to join him/'
'Well ... yes,' said Hermione quietly, 'that is where I got the idea ... but you'll notice I decided to engrave the date on bits of metal rather than on our memebers' skin.'
'Yeah ... I prefer your way, ' said Harry, grinning, as he slipped his Galleon into his pocket

Harry and Hermione glancing at eachother and knowing what's going on.

'Shut up, Malfoy,' said Hermione sharply.
'I seem to have touched a nerve,' said Malfoy, smirking. 'Well, ;just watch yourself, Potter, because I'll be dogging your footsteps in case you step out of line.'
'Get out!' said Hermione, standing up.
S******ing, Malfoy gave Harry a last malicious look and departed, with Crabbe and Goyle lumbering along in his wake. Hermione slammed the compartment door behind them and turned to look at Harry, who knew at once that she, like him, had registered what Malfoy had said and been just as unnerved by it.
'Chuck us another Frog,' said Ron, who had clearly noticed nothing

Harry and Hermione, partnering

Harry agreeing to help quiz Hermione
Harry holding the Bowtruckle (sp?)so Hermione can draw it's face
Hermione accompanying Harry that last time to Umbridges office

This book Ron teamed up with Hermione. i think that's a subtle hint.

Except when it really mattered: With Grawp, with the Centaurs in the Forbidden Forest, at the MoM ...

Erica

Fairydust

July 30th, 2003, 6:46 pm

it's mentioned in OotP more than once. and they don't nit pick over everything.

potterfreak24

July 30th, 2003, 6:53 pm

FairyDust, Coulld you point me to other examples please? I am honestly drwaing a blank.

Daveydee

July 30th, 2003, 6:54 pm

Right out of left field comes this bizarre new idea that Ron and Hermione's characters are so developed in order to depict the angel and the demon perched on Harrys shoulders.

That might conceivably be the case if we had consistent and repeated canonic references to how their opposing views in relation to specific circumstances impact upon Harry and influence his judgement, feelings, decisions etc. But that has never been a feature of these books. Simply not the case.

The initial antagonism, the subsequent arguments and the recent cooling off between Ron and Hermione show nothing more or less than the dynamic and progression of the relationship between Ron and Hermione.

And incidentally, note the word dynamic. For that is what is is. Not static. 'Constant bickering' the popular phrase, is no longer an accurate description. Refer to my earlier post regarding the hardening and subsequent softening of their respective attitudes.

OT

MadEyeMike - about your avatar. It is simply nasty. CoSforums is not a nasty place and there are many younger users who might be genuinely disturbed by it.

Mad Eye Mike

July 30th, 2003, 6:55 pm

Ok, for everyone who was scared by my sig (it was from the film 'The Ring') I've changed it to something a little more pleasing.

AK - Your sig confuses me. I didn't know you were a Ron/Luna shipper. :p

Btw, in that passage you posted AK, notice how the text says R/Hr argued all the way back to the common room. Note it doesn't say they bickered or went back and forth, but rather, they argued.

GryffindorGal

July 30th, 2003, 6:56 pm

Turambar

July 30th, 2003, 6:58 pm

potterfreak24

July 30th, 2003, 7:00 pm

Ecthelion

July 30th, 2003, 7:03 pm

Ok, this is getting old since I'm constantly saying this, so from now on, I'll abreviate "Great Posts Everyone" as GPE. So GPE! :D

And to catch up on things...

I said Ginny took action when she saw Harry was suffering, Hermione chided him for days.

Thing is, Chiding, is for Hermione, action. But for this particular scenario, Hermione did not get the whole picture so can be excused. All she knew was that Harry wanted to see Sirius, she had know way of knowing that it was something serious. For all she knew, he could have been asking advice on cho!

Ahh. I see Earendil has already posted this reply as well...

And no one was presuming that Hermione didn't know that Harry wanted to speak to Sirius specifically. What my shipmates were saying was that she didn't know that Harry wanted to speak to Sirius about his father. She didn't know that this was a deep personal issue about resolving his perception of his father's character.
********

R/H have chemistry. When they aren't verbally sparring then they seem to get along swimmingly. They have their moments when they glance at each other and sort of know what's going on. Is it not something that everytime there's a partner pairing activity Ron and Harry use to always team up. This book Ron teamed up with Hermione. i think that's a subtle hint.

Hmm. Yes, they do have chemistry, but it's my own personal opinion that it's the kind that blows up. Harry and Hermione have the type of "chemistry" your talking about...but then again, it's my opinion. Oh, and when they aren't verbally sparring, they usually aren't talking. And Ron and Hermione naturally teamed up with each other because Harry iscolated them and it was up to them to get him back. Not really much of a choice really.

Again, GPE :tu:

Sorry about the rather pathetic post above this, but I'll post something much deeper and insightful later....as of now I've got a tee time in about 5 minutes so.....

AvadaKedavra

July 30th, 2003, 7:07 pm

Hope 1272, I agree personally with your interpretation, I was just pointing out some contradictions that Flying Phoenix had made (for debating's sake). But if you speak for FP too and she agrees, my sincerest apologies.

The whole ‘Sparring Thing’

I came up with one example earlier.

To support my post, I will repost a part of Davydee’s summarization of R/Hr, a few pages ago.

In the early books we see them as petty squabblers. More often than not provoking each other over minor points.

As they grow up a little we see these petty squabbles develop into deeper rifts, where neither will acknowledge the other for a period.

As adolescence and hormones dawn those deeper rifts evolve into arguments over personal boy/girl issues – very adolescent issues.

As they enter the second half of their teenage years they have a tendency to tone down their views and start to learn to accept each others differences.

With a few exceptions, they have done with the childish squabbling,

I would like to draw attention to the last part- “as they enter the second half of their teenage years”. I absolutely agree. Another part of this is the start of their playful sparring, that I have found at least one example of.

We have some squabbling, some bickering, some arguing (for cheap substitutes), and some playful sparring as their adolescence starts, generally being opposite to each other for half of their relationship time. Keep that in mind as you read the next part of the post.

I found this on a website

Someone came up with this.

………………………………………………………………………

‘According to John Granger's book "The Hidden Key to Harry Potter", the Harry Potter books draw heavily on alchemy and it's symbols for their plots, their themes, and their overall "flavour."

What does this mean for Ron and Hermione? Well, there are two elements that always "argue" with each other and eventually join together in alchemy - the Red Element, Sulphur, and the White Element, Mercury. They are represented by, among other things, a red-headed warrior quarrelling with a lady in white, and eventually marrying her. John points out some compelling proof for this - among other bits of proof is that Hermione is the Greek feminine version of the name "Hermes -" and Hermes is another name for the roman god Mercury.’

………………………………………………………………………

This isn’t my revelation, but I’m doing a Lockhart and taking all the credit!

OBLIVATE!

See the theme of outright opposites at the start, but fused together at the end. So sweet. :p

(Note the irony in the authors name).

You can argue in many ways, you can argue with flirtation, you can argue with humour, you can argue passionately, you can argue violently. It's up to us to intepret how they argued.

Mad Eye

Watch it! Cheeky bugger! :rotfl:

I don't suppose you remember that Hermione made her hair straight and sleek- combed smooth. Plus Luna is blonde. :D

You may have a bad memory, but you certainly have fine taste though. :p

I suggest you do something about your avatar, as it is a BIG contrast to your sig (honestly!)

I rather like the good old drawing.

Signing out,

Avada

GilyAnn

July 30th, 2003, 7:12 pm

Daveydee.. you asked for H/hr opinions..I gave you mine.I can write you an essay if you would like about my topic of how Ron and Hermione act as devil/angel counterparts if you would like..including canon citations :)

Perhaps Im being stupid. But why is this bad. We all need that kind of thing. And like JKR says 'no one is entirely good.' I believe in that personaly. No one is wholy good we all have our :evil: side. Perhaps someone can shed some light. Because that is why I think Ron and Hermione are perfect for each other and they probably will end up together.

Gily Ann

Hawk 92

July 30th, 2003, 7:16 pm

AK

Lets start at here, in your own post,

stung. argued

But as you stated,

This falls in nicely with my theory of subsitution,

But this theory has no basis in cannon and is merely because you want it to be. In short you insert what you want to happen in parts such as the gifts at christmas time. (Shall I dig up my old post about that?)

I shall give a little advice

One should avoid a unfamiliar word as a ship avoids a reef.
-Gaius Julius Caesar

One should avoid a theroy based on want as a ship avoids a reef
-Hawk

Let's see,

Daveydee

You seem to be saying that for Hr/R to happen it will take more work on JKR's part. (Which is what most H/Hr shippers say as well) Perhaps you could show in cannon where you claim that this is already happening,

But, getting better it is. In fact, JK is quite cleverly using the relationship between Ron and Hermione to underscore one of the major themes of her book. How differences of opinion can be treated with tolerance and seemingly irreconcilible differences can be overcome, in the name of love and harmony (small h!)

As they enter the second half of their teenage years they have a tendency to tone down their views and start to learn to accept each others differences.

With a few exceptions, they have done with the childish squabbling, with the pre-pubescent disagreements, with the adolescent arguments.

Now a little proof from cannon. BTW your theory holds only if Harry is in danger every day and if Ron has a miserable day constantly. Because the only cannon is that Hermione is sympthatic to Ron and they only stop fighting when its important to Harry.

Now Fairydust

You keep saying Hr/R. Could you show me where Hermione returns Ron's feelings? Unless we are holding with AK's Victorian era theory that it doesn't matter how Hermione feels but only how Ron feels. And before AK claims that I have misquoted him I'll point out this,

Hermione and Harry only have a chance if a condition is satsified. That condition requires Ron to terminate his "crush" for Hermione.

I don't think he will. So bye-bye H/Hr.

Your own words, right AK, all that matters is how Ron feels about the whole situation. Sorry but that won't hold.

Well Earendil

Sorry but building your own lightsaber is part of Jedi and HMS Harmony 00 Training and has been since the beginning.

Mad Eye Mike

Sorry bean counter is not fearless leader but it seems to me that your thoughts seem to be on the verge of mutiny?? :eyebrows: And there is one thing we can agree on Nikki Cok :drool: BTW I didn't think we were supposed to take Daveydee's idea of putting our pictures in our avatars seriously. But I guess you did. :lol:

Cheers!

Hope1272

July 30th, 2003, 7:20 pm

AK,

No apologies, please. It's all in the course of debating. I should rather apologize for just jumping in like that. Your posts spurred me to examine the text more closely, which is always a fun thing and that is the whole point. :)

Fairydust

July 30th, 2003, 7:25 pm

potterfreak24

July 30th, 2003, 7:38 pm

Perhaps Im being stupid. But why is this bad. We all need that kind of thing. And like JKR says 'no one is entirely good.' I believe in that personaly. No one is wholy good we all have our :evil: side. Perhaps someone can shed some light. Because that is why I think Ron and Hermione are perfect for each other and they probably will end up together.

Gily Ann

Gily Ann..I think that this will be another point where we agree to disagree. I see them as being polar opposites. They will always be butting heads with each other over the little things in life.

I agree in that we all need a little good and bad side to our conscience. The point that I was trying to make was that Ron and Hermione are the good and bad to harry's conscience. Therefore they can never be paired together because they need to remain as Harry's good/bad sides of his conscience.

sorry if I made you or anyone else confused with this post. I can try to explain it again if you would like.... :)

Hawk 92

July 30th, 2003, 7:49 pm

Hawk92, Hermione's feelings are pretty clear in GoF. "ask me before someone else does". that basically says that she wanted him to ask her. she has feelings for Ron. can someone give me evidence of H/H, though. cuz i can't see it.

You left out not as a last resort and you left out the fact that Hermione continued to see Krum up until the end of book 4. That their relationship grew in that time. Remember that Hermione and Krum's first date was the Yule Ball. That Krum admitted that he had feelings for Hermione that he didn't have for anyone else after the second task at the end of Feburary (2 months away) and that Krum confronted Harry about Hermione before the 3rd task at a later point. Then remember that Krum and Hermione were still speaking at the end of Gof.

Perhaps another instance of Hermione having feelings for Ron?

Cheers!

Sirius83

July 30th, 2003, 8:04 pm

Hawk92, Hermione's feelings are pretty clear in GoF. "ask me before someone else does". that basically says that she wanted him to ask her. she has feelings for Ron. can someone give me evidence of H/H, though. cuz i can't see it.

I won't go into the many instances of symbolism and romantic imagery in this post(i think i may do later post on it though) as it has been brougth up in the recent past of this thread. But first of all let me answer your GOF quote.

Hermione told Ron not to use her as a last resort. That's all it means really. Why WOULDN'T she go to a dance with a friend? But, why would she go with anyone if they treat her as a last resort? Hermione demands to be treated properly and if Ron cannot do that, he should forget it. That's what she is telling him. She also didn't say "Ask me first next time and i'll go with you" - instead what she said in essence was that if he wanted her to consider going with him, she cannot be his last resort option. However, what is most telling is that after becoming fully aware of Ron's feelings, she never once encourages him in them.

Now i'll go on to a few instances of H/Hr hinting(imagery and symbolism NOT included).

Hermione talks to Krum about Harry a lot. As we also find out, he never asks about Harry. She goes to a guy she likes and inadvertedly talks about her guy friend all the time, to the point that Krum gets suspicious? Sorry, i'm not buying it. I do think at this point Hermione was already subconciously liking Harry. Over the course of OOTP, i think she finally realised her feelings for Harry. So lets gloss over that.

She asks him to come help her with her elf hats. This is just screaming "I want to spend time alone with you, without Ron!" Why? Well, she knows Harry doesn't approve of SPEW. Harry let her know that back in GOF. We also saw Hermione knitting the hats before. She does it through magic. All the while, she is busy chatting with Ginny. This is what she does when knitting her hats. This seems to be what she wanted to do. Sit down and chat with Harry, spending time alone with him. Without Ron. In other words, spending time with him outside of the trio; it seems the trio friendship is not enough for her.

When Harry and Cho kiss, Hermione does not take this well. She takes it in but does not act happy for him nor does she ever offer him her advice on Cho following this kiss. Please go back a page or two as Mike has done an excellent post on this and i do not wish to repeat it all.

When Hagrid asked to come with him during Ron's game, Hermione was quick to leave. She never asked if she could stay back. She never even asked anything, she let Harry do all the talking. Then she just got up and left, unquestioningly. When Harry plays, she attends even when he isn't speaking with her. Interestingly enough, once Harry is off the team she doesn't mind speaking her mind about Quidditch. It doesn't seem to matter that Ron(who she supposedly likes) is on it now.

What about Harry? Well, he's been occupied with Cho, but we have some nice instances to play with all the same. In Harry's dream, Cho(his crush) turns into Hermione. Hermione did not just enter the dream, she took Cho's place. Harry has a part of his mind that speaks in Hermione's voice. The girl is inside his head, that has to say something. In the DoM, Harry grabs a fistful of Hermione's robes and drags her away with him. He doesn't even bother with Ginny who he supposedly likes...note who he really holds closer to his heart.

When Hermione is taken out, Harry has a vastly different reaction to the past instances. He falls to his knees, forgetting to fight. He blames himself. He gets light headed when he hears she's okay. True, of course she's his friend. But he wasn't the same way upon seeing Ron's body or when he found Ginny in the COS. When Harry remembers some of the worst things to happen to him...one included Hermione sprouting cat hair? That's an odd one.

I'll probably need to do a more detailed post on all of this...but as you can see, we do have our evidence. Remember i barely touched GOF, i didn't even go into the first 3 books and i did not include any instances of symbolism or romantic imagery.

AvadaKedavra

July 30th, 2003, 8:08 pm

Hawk92,

I politely decline to follow your advice. And I politely choose to ignore your comment that my theory is "victorian".

My theory would certainly explain the way Ron and Hermione behave to each other, and apart from the fact that I want them to end up together, I *think* they will end up together, and from what I have read (their behaviour), I have constructed a theory to explain why this happens and that happens.

You see, it's bit like being presented a puzzle.

2+_=4. Now, my theory would be represented by a "2" as to complete the puzzle, and to explain things.

Your theory would be represented by a "(1+1)" to complete the puzzle and to explain things.

For now, I'm going to politely agree to disagree, instead of running through old ground, as you seem to enjoy doing.

I, however, may choose to post a updated edition to my theory of subsitution to include Davydee's relationship progression, and other little bits of theory (supported by canon), if you don't mind. Just don't expect it too soon.

Potterfreak24

You are saying that they need to remain harry's good/bad sides of his conscience- well if H/Hr happens, then wouldn't this cause a problem?

Hermione would want to consider herself one of the most important persons in Harry's life (especially if she was his girlfriend). She would dominate him, and his bad/good conscience (whichever Hermione represents) would dominate- i.e. we would see the nagging and caring nature of Hermione conflict with their relationship.

Plus, if Harry sides with Ron, I can see a potential conflict happening- Hermione will be frustrated with Harry for not listening to her, especially when she is his girlfriend and is important.

Signing out,

Avada

Sarmi

July 30th, 2003, 8:32 pm

Great posts guys!!! :clap: :clap: :clap:

MEM - You avatar is truly scary. You're new sig with Nikki Cox (EDIT - Sorry Mike!) is much better than that girl in that white room. :tu:

First off, I'm noticing that it's starting to get a little heated again....just remember to calm down. There is no need to get snarky.

Secondly, for those who are constantly saying R/Hr has the chemistry and so forth. Can you please post some canon evidence to back it up? That is the reason why we are here, to debate, not argue. So, if you think one way, please state some evidence to back it up. Thanks!

Thirdly, I would like to reiterate for those who may have ignored my post in order to read those that are much better than mine. ;)

OotP (US Version) Chapter 14, page 300

"Hermione, you are honestly the most wonderful person I've ever met," said Ron weakly, "and if I'm ever rude to you again - "

" - I'll know your back to normal," said Hermione. . . .

This is plain as day. Hermione considers Ron's actions towards her to be rude, not nice, not cute, and certainly not entertaining. If Hermione considers Ron to normally be rude to her, what is the chance of R/Hr?

Now, to answer AK & DD's questions. I don't know who had which question, but I will try to answer them.

Why did JKR set up Ron & Hermione as antagonistic towards each other?

I think that's how the question went. Anyway, my reason for that set up is for Harry to have the Id(Ron) and Super Ego (Hermione). Harry is in the middle, the Ego. Ron gives out his opinion, Hermione gives out hers, and Harry makes the decision.

AK, if I'm correct didn't you state that the main reason H/Hr couldn't happen is because of the need for Ron to get over his crush.

I completely disagree. H/Hr can happen even if Ron still harbors feelings for Hermione. If Ron knows that Hermione likes Harry and that Harry likes Hermione, then I expect Ron to be mature enough to accept it and be happy. If he doesn't want to accept it, then that's his problem.

I love Ron again after OotP, but Hermione isn't the right girl for him. Ron needs to be able to shine on his own and have a girl completely devoted to him. Hermione is solely devoted to Harry. However, Luna........well, she couldn't keep her eyes off Ron. :eyebrows:

Again, great posts guys!!!! :clap:

Sarmi

Mad Eye Mike

July 30th, 2003, 8:39 pm

Mad Eye Mike

Sorry bean counter is not fearless leader but it seems to me that your thoughts seem to be on the verge of mutiny?? :eyebrows: And there is one thing we can agree on Nikki Cok :drool: BTW I didn't think we were supposed to take Daveydee's idea of putting our pictures in our avatars seriously. But I guess you did. :lol:

Hawk - No mutiny, just a simply investigation of the 00division. :rotfl: @ that comment about my avatar.

AK - Are we going to go back to mathematical equations?

Sarmi - The girl in the white room was from the American remake of 'The Ring'. Btw, it's Nikki Cox with an 'x'. Be very careful how you spell it. :lol:

potterfreak24

July 30th, 2003, 8:39 pm

Hawk92,
Potterfreak24

You are saying that they need to remain harry's good/bad sides of his conscience- well if H/Hr happens, then wouldn't this cause a problem?

Hermione would want to consider herself one of the most important persons in Harry's life (especially if she was his girlfriend). She would dominate him, and his bad/good conscience (whichever Hermione represents) would dominate- i.e. we would see the nagging and caring nature of Hermione conflict with their relationship.

Plus, if Harry sides with Ron, I can see a potential conflict happening- Hermione will be frustrated with Harry for not listening to her, especially when she is his girlfriend and is important.

Signing out,

Avada

I was just saying that up to this point that is how I perceive the r/hr relationship to be like. That was my reasoning as to why r/h can't work. IMO. it had nothing to do with h/hr relationship. But to respond to your other points. I think that Hermione represents the good side of Harry's conscience. She does not out to dominate harry. Also I think that after what happened at the end of OotP I think that harry has or will realize how often Hermione has been right in the past and begin to listen more closely to her opinions.

evaluna

July 30th, 2003, 8:46 pm

All my fellow shippers, other H/Hr supporters, and all those against R/Hr for philosphical & other valid reasons: please, all, take a bow! Really great posts! Still waiting for BabyMars' followup...and yes MoF it is interesting re: Crookshanks, who clearly performs as a classic familiar of sorts for Hermione [like Mrs. Norris for Filch but in a less unsavoury manner...], in addition to his other skills.

Hawk, MEM, you each bring so much to the ship...what can I say? Let's bury the hatchet . MEM, your avatar is freakish yet...strangely compelling -- did you charm it? It's Harry gone bad, very bad...

AK: I am [i]so proud of you! Seriously,though I disagree basically start-to-end [what else is new?], I love the approach to your argument here AND the fact that recently you have also begun looking at your ship and such from a Taoist perspective.

‘According to John Granger's book "The Hidden Key to Harry Potter", the Harry Potter books draw heavily on alchemy and it's symbols for their plots, their themes, and their overall "flavour."

What does this mean for Ron and Hermione? Well, there are two elements that always "argue" with each other and eventually join together in alchemy - the Red Element, Sulphur, and the White Element, Mercury. They are represented by, among other things, a red-headed warrior quarrelling with a lady in white, and eventually marrying her. John points out some compelling proof for this - among other bits of proof is that Hermione is the Greek feminine version of the name "Hermes -" and Hermes is another name for the roman god Mercury.’

………………………………………………………………………

This isn’t my revelation, but I’m doing a Lockhart and taking all the credit!

AK, I haven't read Granger's book, but I will say that in traditional alchemy terms, sulphur is a fire element, traditionally associated with Vulcan, the underworld, and later, with the starkest Christian concept of "hellfire and ****ation" ;) [but note: the association with sulphur was not from Hades but from Vulcan]. Vulcan, the god of Fire, was black-haired, morose, possessed his own esoteric knowledge of mining and metalworking, and was often depicted as lame. He is the hidden fire in the mountain, whilst Apollo was the god of the "fire in the open sky", the sun. The association with fire is probably the reason for sulphur's categorisation as a "red" element, associated with the Red Warrior that Granger discusses.

Remember that Leo is one of the 3 fire signs, ruled by the Sun, whilst Pisces is a water sign, ruled by Neptune. Therefore, Granger's intrepretation of the fire element Sulphur indicating Ron [based on Ron's hair colour and a quick temper, I assume?] is lacking the logical continuity of his earlier argument. If the association with Hermione occurs because Mercury is her ruling planet, associated with an air sign, and embodies many of her characteristics, I find that sound. However, the parallel association is with a ruling planet that is associated with a fire sign [represented by "Red" Sulpur], as fire and air feed one another. That would seem to more strongly points to Harry, not Ron, despite Ron's hair colour.

Interestingly, Harry has also symbolically been rendered "lame" by the scar on his forehead, just for starters. Harry has been rendered figuratively lame in many other ways, as well [orphaned, unloved, despised, marked, and so forth]. Harry has more compelling ties, through fire, to both Apollo/Sun [Harry's own sign, a fire sign] and Vulcan/Mars [another fire sign]. Vulcan is the brother of Mars (Ares), the god of War, and both are linked to the sun sign of Aries[fire]/ruling planet Mars. However, it was Vulcan and Apollo in mythology that had the tense, competitive, and symbiotic relationship -- each being the opposite of the other: one representing fire and light, the other, fire and darkness. One of Harry's life lessons may be to overcome the false dualism and unify these opposing forces within himself. One more thing -- Vulcan as blacksmith to the gods, forged the lightning bolts of Jupiter, or Zeus.

Finally, AK, the point about Hermes and Mercury [ties to Hermione] can be separated from the symbol of the White Lady. Mercury is of course a liquid silver metal, and white and silver are one and the same, metaphysically. However, white and silver are the same colours associated with the Moon, and thus if you choose regardless to view Ron as the Red Warrior, then the compatible White Lady would be Luna, whose sun sign, like Ron's, is water and would blend rather than forever clash or storm. All we need is one row or argument to fulfill Granger's referenced mythology, and there's time yet for that ;). All in all, Granger's interpretation could be seen as a bit loose IMHO, that's all I'm saying.

The evidence points to Harry and Hermione as the Red Warrior and White Lady. But it you must see it as Ron, though it is truly a stretch, then using comparable logic, his compatible White Lady is Luna.

However, AK...

Original post by Avada Kedavra
Hermione and Harry only have a chance if a condition is satsified. That condition requires Ron to terminate his "crush" for Hermione.

I don't think he will. So bye-bye H/Hr.

...we still have some work to do, I see...I trust the reasons are obvious :rasp:

I'll be getting back to the sun, the moon, and why the yin-yang thing doesn't work on paper for JKR without real-life complementary interaction...in another post.

Next, the gateway of souls...
Cheers!

Hawk 92

July 30th, 2003, 8:50 pm

AK

I, however, may choose to post a updated edition to my theory of subsitution to include Davydee's relationship progression, and other little bits of theory (supported by canon), if you don't mind. Just don't expect it too soon.

I shall be happy to wait. I will give you a :clap: for one thing though. You are one of the only Hr/R shippers that I have met who had tried to prove (not always but sometimes) that Hr/R could happen without trying to show how bad Hermione is for Harry. That is a noble effort.

2+_=4. Now, my theory would be represented by a "2" as to complete the puzzle, and to explain things.

Your theory would be represented by a "(1+1)" to complete the puzzle and to explain things.

I have submitted a couple of theories. Where did I do this? And 2+(1+1) is still 4. So you're confusing me here.

For now, I'm going to politely agree to disagree, instead of running through old ground, as you seem to enjoy doing.

Only because this is a debate. You brought up a theory. It was challenged by cannon. Then you claim victory. Sorry here but no ship can claim victory until JKR and only JKR says so in the books.

I don't challenge speculation but I will ask on what cannon you base speculation on. Speculation can go any way and should be respected, but it should also have it's basis in cannon.

I politely decline to follow your advice. And I politely choose to ignore your comment that my theory is "victorian".

You may decline. No one has to take any advice.

And I didn't clarify myself there. Your theory is not Victorian. That statement is. You see in the Victorian Area women had very little rights and were often ruled bu their husband. To say the H/Hr or Hr/R is going to happen based solely on Ron and his feelings is Victorian. Hermione need to return those feelings. But this is a general comment aimed at that theory, its all about Ron, in general. Not aimed at AK But his statement summed it up best.

Cheers!

Mad Eye Mike

July 30th, 2003, 9:06 pm

evaluna - That post was simply fabulous. Here you go :clap: :clap:

Are you a member of the 00division eva? If not, you and I need to talk. ;)

The thing about R/Hr's arguing is that it's never presented by JKR in a cute and playful way. They are always sharp, mean, aggravating and hurtful to each other. If it were just two kids innocently bothering each other then it wouldn't be so bad, but it's not written that way. It's a very disapproving and malicious type of relationship. Ron and Hermione deserve better than what they can give each other.

Ron needs someone who's more interested in him than Harry (Luna) and Hermione needs someone who loves and accepts her for who she is (Harry).

:agree:

Hawk 92

July 30th, 2003, 9:16 pm

Are you a member of the 00division eva? If not, you and I need to talk.

Read her location there Mike. :cool: Now I have to ask this off topic question. Just what is that avatar? Seriously. From what movie or album or what? Just curious. I used to like your Mad Eye Moody avatar and question Sirius83's Blair Witch Project Avatar.

But great avatar now there Sirius83. I think that Gary Oldman was born to play that part.

Don't like the guy they got for Lupin though. :nc:

Where is 00Mars? Still eating cookies I guess. :lol:

Cheers!

BabyMars

July 30th, 2003, 9:53 pm

Hawk 92 Where is 00Mars? Still eating cookies I guess. :lol:

Cheers!

I'm here 00Hawk. I don't want to bother replying until I get my smooch smily back. :grumble:

Cheers to you! :D

GilyAnn

July 30th, 2003, 9:56 pm

Gily Ann..I think that this will be another point where we agree to disagree. I see them as being polar opposites. They will always be butting heads with each other over the little things in life.

I agree in that we all need a little good and bad side to our conscience. The point that I was trying to make was that Ron and Hermione are the good and bad to harry's conscience. Therefore they can never be paired together because they need to remain as Harry's good/bad sides of his conscience.

sorry if I made you or anyone else confused with this post. I can try to explain it again if you would like.... :)

Before I post my replies I wish to make an announcement to the lurkers and readers of this thread:

People if you disagree with a poster of this thread feel free to come in and refute his or hers point. Feel free to PM the person if you feel a comment was out of line or if you simply do not agree with the statement made. But PLEASE don't feel free to go to another forum and express your frustration over this poster without his or hers knowledge. Is simply bad manners to speak about the person without giving them the opportunity to defend themselves. It's also lousy debating tactics. On this I also include not me but the other shippers of this forum. I agree to disagree with them but do not like to see something that they don't know about and can't defend themselves.

Gily Ann

Ok now to Potterfreak.
I agree to disagree with you then. :lol: I think it's a good thing.

You left out not as a last resort and you left out the fact that Hermione continued to see Krum up until the end of book 4. That their relationship grew in that time. Remember that Hermione and Krum's first date was the Yule Ball. That Krum admitted that he had feelings for Hermione that he didn't have for anyone else after the second task at the end of Feburary (2 months away) and that Krum confronted Harry about Hermione before the 3rd task at a later point. Then remember that Krum and Hermione were still speaking at the end of Gof.

I think not as a last resort points out even more Hermione's feelings for Ron.

Gily Ann

Mad Eye Mike

July 30th, 2003, 9:57 pm

Hawk - My avatar is the Joker from a fan made Batman film. If you'd like to see more, PM me and I'll send you a link with images from the film. Never fear though, the 'Mad Eye' avatar shall eventually return.

In that pic of the Shrieking Shack, Lupin looked like an older Quentin Tarantino.

Back on topic...

Wasn't it cute how Luna called Ron 'Ronald' and was always humming "Weasley Is Our King"? That girl is so sweet on Ron, she's going to make a good girlfriend for him.

Mirror of Erised

July 30th, 2003, 10:27 pm

Hello everyone, this is my first post, as I have been keeping an eye on a lot of the proceedings in this thread, it's only fitting I introduce my self here. :tu:

I believe that Harry and Hermione are the couple to come out of this series, and not only because they are the 2 most important chartacters, But also because there is so much Empathy on both parts of Harry and Hermione's relationship.
I think that the path (either way) should/will definately be laid down in the next book. Harry's conscience already hears and knows Hermione's train of thought, and Hermione knows exactly what Harry feels, and how to get him shining on. Every one speaks of Harry loving Hermione sub-consciously, I believe this to be true. This was shown to us when Cho was dancing with Harry in front of Prof. McGonnagal, and by the end of the dance, Cho turned to Hermione. That is pure brain activity telling him what lies in store for him, as well as a wonderful display of foreshadowing by Mrs. JKR. The brain was basically telling him, that Cho was a crush, but in the end it will be Hermione standing beside him, as she is replacing Cho in Harry's heart as well. Ron and Hermione fans will say that there is as much innuendo between Hermione and Ron, but it is not nearly as visible as Harry and Hermione. I believe that the Trio may change by the relationship slowly working out between Harry and Hermione, and eventually Ron and Harry's boats will in no doubt clash for the heart of Hermy. :love:

I believe that Ron and Harry's beef is about the entire point of ending Voldemort's existence. as we know from Dumbledore, Harry received some parts of Voldemorts power (parseltongue etc) to enhance his own, and the only true thing Harry's got over LVoldy... is the fact that he certainly HAS the ability to love.
A certain poster in here (Im sorry, I forget your name in my post writing :sad: ) has a bohemian comment from the movie Moulin Rouge
"The greatest thing you can ever learn, is how to love, and be loved in Return"
This quote has simply caught the quintessential piece of the way JKR is sending this series, as Harry must learn how to love others as much as they have shown him love. In particular, Hermione... who has been the person who stood by Harry as Harry, and not as the boy-who-lived. I have found that even Ron at times, has shown that he is a fan at times as well, where Hermione will take the good and the bad every single minute Harry is alive.
I believe that the greatest, most powerful emotion a human (or wizard) can display is to show love in return, and I find that this is the only thing about love that Harry's story truly lacks. True he does have love for others, and friends, but the only thing Harry has truly lacked is one true love, a love above all others.
Either ship can argue (the R/Hr or H/Hr) about their sides, but the most evident thing I received from reading the books is the fact that Harry's most influenetial female friend, the one that has every thing that he needs most in a future wife, is Hermione. Where Harry bends rules, Hermione manipulates them. where Harry has an extroverted personality, Hermione is more introverted, and when the minds come together, they stick to eachother's thoughts like glue (I don't know how many times this was evident in the OOTP, but it seampt like the entire book was building this way).Many posters on the H/Hr boat have proven that.
At the same time, I certainly think that this series is getting darker and darker as each book passes, as deeper, and more heavier burdens are placed on poor Harry's shoulders. When we last left Harry, he was almost releived to be going back home to 4 privet Drive, and I feel that harry will come back from the next summer, distanced from the entire school by choice (including Ron and Hermione) not because he is not friends with them or anything, but mainly because of the prophecy which states that neither one of Harry or Voldemort can truly live, until the other is vanquished. Harry up to Dumbledores talk was getting more and more closer with Hermione with every passing day. My belief that it may only be Hermione that will be able to bring harry out of his shell, and it will come about by truly admitting her feeling s for him. Of course time will only tell, but evidence of Ron's actions in the past book, is that he is not trying to stand beside Harry anymore, but is trying to create his own status in the Wizarding World. Hermione too tries to succeed in her own part, but she has success in ways that Harry does not have, and the plate in front of Harry (his fame) has defiantely sunk in to Hermione's mind, and she is truly there to stand beside him. Because she has/will/ always believe him 100%. Just ask Viktor Krum after rescuing HER out of GOF task 2.

sone

July 30th, 2003, 10:31 pm

Thanks Sone for your reply earlier.
I was thinking that Harry/Cho/Ginny and Hermione/Krum/Ron looks very planned and deliberate.
1 dark haired (C,K) one red haired each (G,R)
1 crush reciprocated (C,K) one spurned (G,R)
1 outsider (C, as in House Ravenclaw, K, as in school Durmstrang) 1 insider (G,R same House Gryffindor)
1 older, popular (C,K)
2 quidditch players each
4 of the six on champions table at Yule Ball, other two both Weasleys
I'm probably just scratching the surface with this.

So am I. I had a huge post about this that I still haven't dropped here yet because I need to fine tune some of my points. But in any case, the theme is really Harry comes first. In OOTP, all the sudden Hermione is starting to become first.

AvadaKedavra

July 30th, 2003, 11:02 pm

I shall be happy to wait. I will give you a :clap: for one thing though. You are one of the only Hr/R shippers that I have met who had tried to prove (not always but sometimes) that Hr/R could happen without trying to show how bad Hermione is for Harry. That is a noble effort.

You are one of the only shippers that I have met who skilfully points out that people contradict themselves and uses excellent reasoning to become advantageous., whilst keeping a balance of humour and seriousness Heres a :clap: for that, and I like your "in short"'s. :D

I may be a lot of things, but I'm not a hypocrite. (You didn't call me one ok?? :scared: )
I occasionally have a go at some people for Ron bashing, so why should I bash Hermione. Plus, if I bashed Hermione, all I would achieve is showing that Hermione wouldn't be suitable for Harry, and that's not doing my ship any good, so the only instance that I 'may' bash Hermione is when I challenge a H/Hr theory or argument. :p

I have submitted a couple of theories. Where did I do this? And 2+(1+1) is still 4. So you're confusing me here.

Sorry. I was hypothecially speaking. :scared:

My rather long winded point was, people will analyse the situation/context and attempt to place a theoretical answer that fits in. I may put in a 2, and to me it makes sense. You may put in a (1+1) and to you, this makes better sense. My theory would effectively be the "2", and I understand that you are asking how I "worked" this out, in other words, how I found out that it was the "2", in other words, the canon.

Only because this is a debate. You brought up a theory. It was challenged by cannon. Then you claim victory. Sorry here but no ship can claim victory until JKR and only JKR says so in the books.

Apologies again. If I may say so, I didn't intend to "claim" victory.

And I didn't clarify myself there. Your theory is not Victorian. That statement is. You see in the Victorian Area women had very little rights and were often ruled by their husband

I see. Yes, I know, after all I am English. :D

To say the H/Hr or Hr/R is going to happen based solely on Ron and his feelings is Victorian. Hermione need to return those feelings. But this is a general comment aimed at that theory, its all about Ron, in general. Not aimed at AK But his statement summed it up best.

Apologies for third time for not clarifying myself. I'd like to point out that I did say H/Hr. I said NOTHING about R/Hr. Ok, let's explain. What I meant is that I couldn't envisage a situation where Ron still had feelings for Hermione, and Harry went ahead anyway with Hermione. That's what I meant. I think Harry does know of Ron's feelings for Hermione, more than Hermione does anyway. I find it impossible to imagine Harry brushing aside Ron's feelings with Hermione and going ahead anyway. So I set a plausible condition- that Ron gets over his feelings for Hermione. Of course, Harry could say, "tough luck" but I don't think he will. It's not in his character.

By the way, you won't have to wait too long for the edited version.

Evaluna

I'm so proud of you being proud of me! Hey guys! An Harmonian is proud of an Heronian!

:wow:

I see your point fully about Granger interpreting it loosely, and your connections, but if this is indeed a real parallel, then I don't think JKR would have checked it up TOO deeply. She might have, to some extent, but not to that depth as you have covered so that every last detail checks out. (If she did that for the rest, we'd still be waiting for COS! :rotfl:).

I think the Luna connection is more plausible, but I don't agree- because Ron and Luna don't argue. In fact, Ron barely acknowledges her. Ron argues with only one person. Who? I don't know. :p

As for the issue that you want to resolve with me, check my addressing to Hawk for clearer explaination before you bite my head off. :D

Mad Eye

You certainly have fine taste. That Cox girl gets me going. :drool:

But like I said before, your memory isn't that good- it was Davydee who did the mathematical equation thing, and gave us all headaches, not me. So I think you can forgive me for this time. Lol. :D

Signing out,

Avada

P.S

:welcome: to all of our newest arrivals.

BabyMars

July 30th, 2003, 11:02 pm

Great post Turambar! I've noticed those parallels too. And I agree, we probably are only scratching the surface.

Cheers :D

Hawk 92

July 30th, 2003, 11:10 pm

:welcome: Mirror of Erised and stick around.

Hawk, MEM, you each bring so much to the ship...what can I say? Let's bury the hatchet [in the HMS Heron, more specifically ]. MEM, your avatar is freakish yet...strangely compelling -- did you charm it? It's Harry gone bad, very bad...

Nice post there 00evaluna and your 100% right. We should bury the hatchet. You distract Mike and I'll come up from behind........... :lol:

But to agree a little with MEM

Wasn't it cute how Luna called Ron 'Ronald' and was always humming "Weasley Is Our King"? That girl is so sweet on Ron, she's going to make a good girlfriend for him.

Very cute, lighthearted, and not gritty at all. But what is truly interesting is that Luna was singing this under her breath in the Chapter Beetle at Bay. Now she's doing this on Valentines day and Ron is at Quiddich practice that day.

So Luna knew where Ron was and was thinking about him on Valentines day(rather symbolic don't you think there Perdy).

Cheers!

Mad Eye Mike

July 30th, 2003, 11:16 pm

Mad Eye

You certainly have fine taste. That Cox girl gets me going. :drool:

But like I said before, your memory isn't that good- it was Davydee who did the mathematical equation thing, and gave us all headaches, not me. So I think you can forgive me for this time. Lol. :D

My memory is just fine because although DD brought it up originally, today you re-introduced it with your puzzle analogy.

I will never turn my back on you Hawk. :no:

GilyAnn

July 30th, 2003, 11:18 pm

Why do all people insist that Luna is interested in Ron? She also show interest on Harry too. But I still say that is Neville and Luna

Gily Ann

Mad eye mike:

Distourbing Avatars!

Sirius83

July 31st, 2003, 12:04 am

Mirror of Erised, Welcome to the love thread! :welcome:

Please allow me to invite you aboard the HMS Harmony. I'm just posting this to say that i hope you stick around! Mike, nice avatar and sigpic! :D

Gily: I've yet to see her display anything that hints at romantic feelings towards Harry. She struck me as someone who befriended him, but who actually has her eyes on his best friend romantically.

Grace Granger

July 31st, 2003, 12:07 am

This is off topic, but I actually like Mike's avatar and sig now. Before I didn't like it because it reminded me of clowns, but it's growing on me. I like it now. You can keep it Mike! :tu:

sone

July 31st, 2003, 12:32 am

Gily: I've yet to see her display anything that hints at romantic feelings towards Harry. She struck me as someone who befriended him, but who actually has her eyes on his best friend romantically.

This struck me as interesting because all of the sudden Hermione doesn't like Luna believing in Harry. Hermione paraphrased "You can do better than her."

Mutant for Hire

July 31st, 2003, 12:42 am

Why do all people insist that Luna is interested in Ron? She also show interest on Harry too. But I still say that is Neville and Luna

I'm afraid I'm one of the people who thinks that Luna is interested in Ron. She laughs at his jokes, she offers to take his owl for him, she more or less talks to him before his first match wearing the lion hat. That's all I can remember off the top of my head. The problem is that Luna is so spacey that she doesn't approach these things in the traditional manner.

lleyki

July 31st, 2003, 12:54 am

Okay Davydee made an interesting post summarising what he saw as the main reasons H/Hr shippers supported that ship and surmised that the arguments showed that Harry and Ron was just as much a possiblity as Harry and Hermione. Fair enough. However, speaking as a H/Hr shipper, there are many other reasons for I support Harry and Hermione that wasn't mentioned. Now this is just MY reasons and is not a reflection of EVERY H/Hr shipper so please don't summarise our arguments, purely based on my post. Okay here goes;

(1) I have found many times R/Hr arguments revolve around HE likes her, HE gets jealous over her, etc., etc. However there have been few times where her feelings are taken into account and after reading all five books I really believe Hermione has feelings for Harry. I've given evidence of this so much; but I'm sure someone will say where was that in the text; so I'll give one from each book.

PS/S
I spoke about the ending scene in my last post and some persons completely missed the point. I specifically said that I'm sure some would argue that for plot reasons Hermione had to go on with Harry, leaving Ron behind. Sure enough some made mention of Harry being the hero and needing to save the day. Yes, but this was NOT my point. The point of my referring to Ron's falling off the horse and Harry getting ready to go face Snape/Quirrel was Hermione's REACTION to each. I don't think Hermione sees Harry as "oh he's the hero so my reaction has to be more intense". The fact is BOTH boys were her friends and BOTH made decisions that could have potentially ended in their deaths. For BOTH incidents we saw Hermione's reaction and the fact is deny it all you want; but she was WAY more intense towards Harry than Ron. Hermione knew what Ron was going to do just like she knew what Harry was going to do; so one can't use the argument that the whole thing with Ron happened too fast for her to fully react. Hermione stood and watched Ron fall from an extremely dangerous height and while she screamed; she didn't even stop to make sure the boy was alive. Nothing. Yet with Harry he has to convince her to leave and that's after her full "you're a great wizard, etc." speech. Might have been nice to tell poor Ron how brave he was before the kid almost got himself killed.

COS
Her reaction to him during the year-end feast. I'm not going in-depth with this again. Her immediate belief that he was the hero, he saved the day, her obvious pride in him again. It certainly makes a very romantic image of Hermione running towards Harry, wearing pyjamas (of all things) screaming "you did it". It parellels the romantic imagery from early in the book with her waving at him from atop a white stairs and running down to meet him; hair flying behind her.

POA
Hermione going to see Harry's game when she wasn't speaking to him. You know there were a number of different things I could have used but I chose this because it's seemingly a little thing. However I've always believed the little things can be just as beautiful as the big, dramatic demonstrations of love. Harry obviously didn't see Hermione, which is why he asked her if she was even there. Thus, here we have Hermione who is not even that fond of the game (witness her eventual boredom in the discussion about the World Cup in GOF), who is technically not speaking to Harry and is mad enough to not run onto the pitch like the other members of the house, yet she was there. I know many persons will just shrug it off as insignificant but obviously Harry likes having her there or (a) he wouldn't even notice that she wasn't and (b) he wouldn't ask about it. Through all that was going on with her (too much work, stress, fighting with Ron, etc), she came to see his game. I mean really it wasn't like Harry would be lacking for support if she wasn't there; the whole Gryffindor house treats Harry like a God when it comes to Quidditch and she obviously didn't come to make a point to him; or she would have made sure he saw her. She did it because she WANTED to be there. She WANTED to see him play and her words later are significant, when she tells him that she was happy they won and " I think YOU did really well". One wonders sometimes if Hermione really watches the other players at all. I say that when you consider her immediately being on the pitch before Harry had even finished saying he couldn't see with his glasses because of the rain.

GOF
Her pride over his accomplishments in the first two tasks. I can understand being nervous and afraid but really; nail marks on the face? That's a little intense, since she herself was well aware that DD would never allow for a task that would get the kids killed. Then there was the Lake Task. I said this a long time ago, but Hermione NEVER asked about Ron. Persons rushed to the whole "oh Ron was with Percy at the time" defence, but as I said then; are you telling me Ron had to physically be in Hermione's presence for her to ask about him. The boys were the LAST getting back, they were well outside the time limit; I mean even Percy was extremely worried, yet all Hermione does is gush over how proud she was of Harry for figuring out how to get in the water on his own and if something happened to him because he was so late coming back. Hermione is so preoccupied with Harry that she barely even glances at Krum when he speaks to her and almost irritatingly brushes the beetle off her hair. When Harry's marks are given she's just glowing at Harry like he's just accomplished the unthinkable. No wonder poor Krum was annoyed. We can compare this to Ron's shining moments. When Harry and Hermione realize Ron and the team won the cup, they both just smile up at Ron and as soon as he passes, go back to worrying about their initial problem of Grawp. I mean honestly the boy just won after sucking SO bad at the sport and that's the extent of her excitement?

(2) Respect For Each Other. Hermione DOES NOT dominate Harry and he DOES NOT dominate her. I love that she will tell him the truth whether or not he wants to hear it. At the same time she can be extremely sympathetic and understanding. Persons love to say how Hermione just coldly tells Harry when something is not a good idea not thinking of how he is feeling but I'll refer to a moment in POA. When Hermione and Ron are trying to convince Harry not to do anything crazy about Sirius, Hermione got to the point of getting tearful and pleading. She WAS NOT lecturing, she WAS NOT nagging, she was pleading and breaking down, trying to reach him. Hermione and Harry NEVER belittle or insult each other. EVER. They will have disagreements and as was the case in OOTP some intense blow-outs but neither one aims to delibrately hurt the other or make them feel bad. Now compare that to Ron's yelling at Hermione at the Yule Ball. He had a look of satisfaction when she left hurt and upset. A look of SATISFACTION. Yet persons defend this; all because the girl had a date. What crime did Hermione commit to deserve that kind of humiliation from Ron. I want someone to answer that for me.

3)Equality. I am a HUGE believer in equality between the sexes and the fact is where Harry is weak, Hermione is strong. He is extremely gifted but is extremely un-motivated to excel in his schoolwork. That's where Hermione comes in. Where he is TOO emotional, she is his rational voice. Some persons say she is too rational, that she lacks sympathy. I don't see that. I've always seen Hermione as the combination of a thinking and feeling person. She can be extremely intense and emotional at times but has the ability and knows when to separate emotion and look at a situation calmly. Harry needs that in his life. Now MORE than ever. Many persons would like to believe that he will pull away from Hermione in the next book, I don't see that but let's just say for argument's sake he does. Do people really seeing Hermione allowing Harry to pull away from her; because I don't. It's not in her character. She's too stubborn for that. I mean this is the same girl who argued about him seeing Sirius up until the diversion was made and he was leaving; she was still arguing. Hermione people, will NOT allow Harry to pull away from her. Period. Incidentally I don't see this happening because one, persons thought it would in this book and the kids only got closer. Two, if as an author you are setting up to minimize a character and have the hero pull away from her, it would help to prepare the readers by slowly diminishing her role from the previous book. You don't make her even more central in the person's life to suddenly yank her away. The only character slowly minimized in this book was Ron. NOT Hermione, so if this is what some shippers are hoping for to make their ship work, you'll be waiting well into the seventh book. In terms of equality between the two again, Hermione is Harry's equivalent in many ways. She may not be exactly as powerful as him but really he is the hero after all, so one wouldn't expect her to be.

(4) They are friends. Contrary to some opinions, Harry and Hermione are friends. She is not some person he tolerates. He loves her and she loves him. He understands her and respects her for what she is. I'll use the example of SPEW. In GOF we see Harry very much irritated with SPEW as Ron is, but before the book ends we see him pretty much accepting of it as part of her. Witness his curiousity over how she felt about the menus. He didn't turn around and poke fun at her, but was just genuinely curious and by OOTP we see him referring to SPEW only when describing a look of Hermione's or wondering how she'd feel about something or another. In other words Harry has long accepted Hermione's obsession with house-elves and just lives with it. Ron on the other hand is still muttering snarky comments under his breath, or still being bothered by her obsession with it. The girl wants to fight for house-elves, no matter how crazy, let her be.

(5)I like it. This is probably my most simple reason for supporting this pair but honestly, isn't most persons ship preferences really about personal taste? What exactly appeals to you? The fact is many persons say that Harry and Hermione is cliched hero gets the girl; but that's where I disagree. Hermoine is not the typical "girl" in that cliche. She is not stunningly beautiful, she's not the super-popular, perfect girl. She's a book-worm and in many ways a plain-Jane and that appeals to me. Why shouldn't she get the hero. Score one for book-worms everywhere. I like that at the same time he has been HER hero. It's not everyday a guy jumps on 12-foot troll for a girl. While he's been her hero she's never been a weakling and her strength is appealing in a female lead. I am not close-minded to all other pairings. It's just that I read a scene like Hermione and Ron bickering over who stunned who and it's mildly cute but that's it. Plus, they've been doing this since the first book and it has really gotten rather tired. The fact is I like the idea that two people can get together without there being forced, petty, non-sensical bickering added to them under the veil of some so-called "tension". I like the idea that we can see two teenagers get together without the old girl likes boy-boy doesn't notice her-girl gets over boy-boy realizes how truly amazing girl always was. I like the idea that we can see a popular source of entertainment that shows two teens respecting, loving, supporting each other and that yes, they can fall in love. It is possible. Finally persons always use to say how Harry gets everything and Ron deserves Hermione. I guess JK threw that out by giving Ron Prefect and Quidditch Cup but I'm sure some will still see Ron as the poor, pathetic guy who deserves to win the girl. Personally I hate that because it objectifies Hermione as some kind of consolation prize, however I can argue that HARRY deserves Hermione. Many persons want to make Ron out to be some poor guy and Harry as getting everything; but that really isn't the case. It astounds me when persons have this view after reading the books and you take a scene like when Mrs.Weasley was reacting to Ron's being made prefect. I'm sure in persons bid to believe poor Ron was finally being vindicated, no one stopped to think how Harry might have felt in that moment. Now don't get me wrong, Mrs. Weasley had EVERY right to be proud of her son but imagine Harry, orphan as he is, had to stand and watch Mrs Weasley fawn and be so proud of her son; knowing he will never have that. Because the truth is no matter how much Mrs. Weasley loves Harry and supports him and takes care of him, because she's naturally a mothering woman, essentially Sirius was right; she's NOT his mother. She will never love him like Lily did and judging by how much people love Lily, she was pretty ****ed amazing; but Harry'll never know that personally and I just shake my head at persons acting like Harry gets everything. Right. That's why when it's all said and done, I think why shouldn't he have Hermione in the end? Why shouldn't he be with the ONE person who has supported him, stood by him, loved him, defended him, unwaveringly throughout?

Before I end I wanted to comment on persons attacks on Hermione's character for her disapproving of Harry wanting to talk to Sirius. Need I remind persons who it was who convinced Harry to write to Sirius about his name coming out of the Goblet? Hermione. Who was it again who helped Harry make sure the Common Room was empty so he could speak to Sirius? Hermione; and while Harry outrightly didnot like the idea of Sirius being so close to Hogsmeade, we NEVER heard Hermione going on about how risky it was or criticizing Sirius' being there. Yet, just because the girl realized that it was indeed dangerous for both Harry and Sirius to communicate, she's suddenly become this cold, emotionless person who doesn't want Harry talking to his godfather? I wonder if some people conveniently forgot that Sirius was still technically a wanted criminal? And I'm sure Fudge would have LOVED that; convince the public how much Voldie isn't back by bringing in one of the most dangerous criminals and his supporters. Besides that, you have Umbridge who was beyond insane, Voldemort and his DE's on the loose and Dementors working on Voldemort's orders. Yet despite all this, Hermione is cold because she merely told Harry that he couldn't put revealing information in a letter that could be intercepted? She is cold because she tries to discourage him from talking to Sirius in a fireplace considering a fireplace was where they'd almost been caught and where he was now planning to use the office of the woman who was certifiably diabolical? She is annoying and motherly because she tells him the truth? That of course being, that what he wants to do IS crazy and stupid but Ginny is the better partner because she voices NO objections, simply goes running to her big brothers and gets THEM to solve the problem, giving him what he wants, regardless of the risks? It amazes me that it hasn't occured to anyone that this isn't all about Harry. Some of his risky decisions and rash judgments; they affect more than just him. What was his thought when Snape threatned to use the truth potion on him in GOF? That the things Snape would find out and the number of persons that would get in trouble. I mean who was it again who used a time-turner illegally, helping Harry EVERY step of the way to save Sirius? Oh yes, Hermione. As Lupin pointed out MANY people love Harry and as such MANY persons lives do become affected by his foolish decisions. That's why I agreed wholeheartedly with Hermione reminding him of DD running away from Hogwarts to save HIM; yet he was going to throw that back in DD's face by taking such a silly risk. The fact is there are times when Harry needs someone to knock some serious sense into his fool's head and it's a little sad that the ONE friend strong enough to do it, gets criticized for it. Amazing.

Sirius83

July 31st, 2003, 12:59 am

Don't forget that indications are she came up with changing around Draco's "Weasley is out king!" song to be positive, stares at him for ages and she calls him "Ronald" - what's with that? Another thing is that she knows exactly who he went to the Yule Ball with(not surprising if she befriended Ginny) - but then went on to say that Padma didn't like the date and then essentially says she won't have minded going with him.

The most interesting part of it all though is that Ron doesn't get disgusted with her for these things. This is somewhat out of character for Ron. I mean, as a wild example, he certainly didn't take well to the girls adoring his owl in GOF, but he actually said thanks to Luna when she did. Also, for all the odd things she does, Ron doesn't react negatively at all. It seems that he finds her amusing and responds quite well to her.

While there isn't an overflowing bowl of hints for the Ron/Luna ship as there are for R/Hr and H/Hr, you do have to admit, no matter what ship you are - if JKR has chosen to match Ron with a girl from outside of the trio, she certainly has set the stage for R/L to play out.

Personally, i was rooting for a "poetic justice" ship in the form of Ron/Eloise, but i really like the way JKR has set up a rather nice starting point for R/L.

EDIT: Lleyki, you've done it again. Can i ever give you all the :clap:'s you deserve?? Amazing posts, always.

GryffindorGal

July 31st, 2003, 1:31 am

You left out not as a last resort and you left out the fact that Hermione continued to see Krum up until the end of book 4. That their relationship grew in that time. Remember that Hermione and Krum's first date was the Yule Ball. That Krum admitted that he had feelings for Hermione that he didn't have for anyone else after the second task at the end of Feburary (2 months away) and that Krum confronted Harry about Hermione before the 3rd task at a later point. Then remember that Krum and Hermione were still speaking at the end of Gof.

Exactly 00Hawk.

Lets see:

1. Krum and Hermione start speaking sometime between the 1st task and Christmas.

2. He asks her to be his date.

3. She has a smashing time at the dance until Ron starts accusing her of betraying Harry (Shades of guilt over his own behavior before the 1st task.)

4. At the 2nd task she is his "sorely missed" item.

5. He tells her that he had feelings for her that he'd didn't have for anyone else.

6. He asks her to visit him in Bulgaria

7. Six months after the Yule Ball he confronts Harry over the fact that Hermione talks about him "very often" (taking into account her behavior after the 2nd task it would appear its been going on for a while)

8. Krum never mentions Hermione talking about Ron. (If JKR wanted to include Ron it would have been easy to have Krum ask Harry about "that other boy" or have Ron himself saying "Harry you'll never guess. Viktor Krum is jealous of me! ME! Ron Weasley."

We also have an BBCi audio interview in which Ms Rowling states "at the end of the book 4 something *huge* happens in terms of the over all plot". . something that she didn't want to mention because [i] I've spent 10 years .the final. . closing scene in book 4. I've spent 10 years writing my way towards that scene and people who have read that will know why its so significant, why its so important. I did not want that leaked..

Now I know people will reply that she means LV's return. Needless to say I disagree. In the 1st place that doesn't happen in the final chapter much less the final scene (and a book. . any book. .can have only one final closing scene). In the 2nd place Lord Voldemorts return isn't the overall plot -- his ultimate defeat and how its accomplished is.

In that closing scene Hermione does something that she'd never done before and kisses Harry's cheek (Ron slaps Harry's back, the twins rethank him for the galleons (interupting a H/Hr moment).

We have the prophecy telling us that Harry's "power that the dark lord knows not" is heart. That seems to indicate that love will be involved in LV's defeat. Neither Harry nor Hermione could open the locked door seperately at the DOM and really Dumbledore's explaination isn't needed unless its going to come into play later in the series.

GilyAnn

July 31st, 2003, 2:53 am

While Luna may display a certain admiration towards Ron she also does the same for Harry. The way I see it she likes both boys:

'Hi, Luna,' said Ginny, 'is it OK if we take these seats?'
The girl beside the window looked up... ...Her eyes ranged over Neville and came to rest on Harry. She nodded.

She stared and stared at Harry, who had taken the seat opposite her and now wished he hadn't.
'Had a good summer, Luna?' Ginny asked.
'Yes,' said Luna dreamily, without taking her eyes off Harry. 'Yes, it was quite enjoyable, you know. You're Harry Potter,' she added.

I'll carry that owl, if you like,' said Luna to Harry, reaching out for Pigwidgeon as Neville stowed Trevor carefully in an inside pocket.

'It's all right,' said a dreamy voice from beside Harry as Ron vanished into the coach's dark interior. 'You're not going mad or anything. I can see them, too.'

A few seconds later, Luna Lovegood emerged, trailing behind the rest of the class, a smudge of earth on her nose, and her hair tied in a knot on the top of her head. When she saw Harry, her prominent eyes seemed to bulge excitedly and she made a beeline straight for him. Many of his classmates turned curiously to watch. Luna took a great breath and then said, without so much as a preliminary hello, 'I believe He Who Must Not Be Named is back and I believe you fought him and escaped from him.'

She broke off, looking rather confused, and an awkward silence fell between them; Terry Boot's wand went whizzing past Harry's ear and hit Alicia Spinnet hard on the nose.
'Well, my dad is very supportive of any anti-Ministry action!' said Luna Lovegood proudly from just behind Harry; evidently she had been eavesdropping on his conversation

Harry had only just managed to get the last of them down before the door creaked open and Luna Lovegood entered, looking as dreamy as usual.
'Hello,' she said vaguely, looking around at what remained of the decorations. These are nice, did you put them up?'
'No,' said Harry, 'it was Dobby the house-elf.'
'Mistletoe,' said Luna dreamily, pointing at a large clump of white berries placed almost over Harry's head.

We already know what Cho did under the Misletoe!

So Luna is also interested in Harry. But I still say that she is for Neville.

(2) Respect For Each Other. >>cut<<I love that she will tell him the truth whether or not he wants to hear it. At the same time she can be extremely sympathetic and understanding. Persons love to say how Hermione just coldly tells Harry when something is not a good idea not thinking of how he is feeling but I'll refer to a moment in POA. When Hermione and Ron are trying to convince Harry not to do anything crazy about Sirius, Hermione got to the point of getting tearful and pleading. She WAS NOT lecturing, she WAS NOT nagging, she was pleading and breaking down, trying to reach him. Hermione and Harry NEVER belittle or insult each other. EVER.

Hate to disagree here. Harry treats Hermione extremelly bad to the point of wanting to shake her. Repeatedly making bring her to tears. Getting annoyed with her not listening to her and also not being sorry for the marks on her hands from Hedwig. He also let's her be insulted and show little care for her when in the Rita seeker articles. Hermione could have been seriously injured and Harry showed little care for that. I hardly think this is being respectfull.

Do people really seeing Hermione allowing Harry to pull away from her; because I don't. It's not in her character. She's too stubborn for that.

Hermione will have her own full agenda and Harry will be somehow unrelated to it. Hermione still someplot lines unrelated to Harry that will need some solving and some how I think she will have her hands full.

The only character slowly minimized in this book was Ron. NOT Hermione,

If there was one character that became closer to Harry in this book it was Ron. It was basicly said all thru the book.

I'll use the example of SPEW. In GOF we see Harry very much irritated with SPEW as Ron is, but before the book ends we see him pretty much accepting of it as part of her.

Yes and we see in OoP ignoring her on the subject. Harry doesn't want to involved in this. He simply doesn't care on the contrary Ron has a really good point that Hermione has refused to listen to it for two books now. He has been joking teasing and trying to tell her in all possible ways but Hermione has been too stubborn to listen. He does have a really good point that she should consider and if she is so keen on this. The first person that she needs on his side is Ron he is a pureblood wizard if she can convince Ron she could convince a few people. Yet she fails to listen to him just because she is right. She could be wrong in the end on her tactics and all along Ron has been trying to tell her all thru his silly jokes (which sometimes come true) and teasing.

Before I end I wanted to comment on persons attacks on Hermione's character for her disapproving of Harry wanting to talk to Sirius. Need I remind persons who it was who convinced Harry to write to Sirius about his name coming out of the Goblet? Hermione. Who was it again who helped Harry make sure the Common Room was empty so he could speak to Sirius? Hermione; and while Harry outrightly didnot like the idea of Sirius being so close to Hogsmeade, we NEVER heard Hermione going on about how risky it was or criticizing Sirius' being there. Yet, just because the girl realized that it was indeed dangerous for both Harry and Sirius to communicate, she's suddenly become this cold, emotionless person who doesn't want Harry talking to his godfather?

She was also the person who went in and critizized Sirius at the beginning of the book when there was no danger and disregarding the feelings had for this person. Hermione constantly critized Sirius with little regard of Harry's emotions for this man.

She is cold because she tries to discourage him from talking to Sirius in a fireplace considering a fireplace where they'd almost been caught and where he was now planning to use the office of the woman who was certifiably diabolical? She is annoying and motherly because she tells him the truth? That of course being, that what he wants to do IS crazy and stupid but Ginny is the better partner because he voices NO objections, simply goes running to her big brothers and gets THEM to solve the problem, giving him what he wants, regardless of their risks? It amazes me that it hasn't occured to anyone that this isn't all about Harry. Some of his risky decisions and rash judgments; they affect more than just him. What was his thought when Snape threatned to use the truth potion on him in GOF? That the things Snape would find out and the number of persons that would get in trouble. I mean who was it again who used a time-turner illegally, helping Harry EVERY step of the way to save Sirius? Oh yes, Hermione. As Lupin pointed out MANY people love Harry and as such MANY persons lives do become affected by his foolish decisions. That's why I agreed wholeheartedly with Hermione reminding him of DD running away from Hogwarts to save HIM; yet he was going to throw that back in DD's face by taking such a silly risk. The fact is there are times when Harry needs someone to knock some serious sense into his fool's head and it's a little sad that the ONE friend strong enough to do it, gets criticized for it. Amazing.

Ginny's idea may have been crazy according to the H/Hr's pov but is the same idea that Hermione uses to check if Sirius is gone from 12GP later on. Hermione tells Harry what she thinks. Hermione is brilliant in logic but on the feelings side she fails at it.

The fact is that Harry is annoyed by Hermione that is on the books. Why would jkr put that it's her question to answer not mine. I didn't make that up. And she does behave like she was his mother. In weird way Hermione and Ron are like Harry's parents and it looks sometimes like if they would be trying to raise him.

It amazes me that people see Hermione as person that can't do no harm when the fact that is scares me what jkr has plan for this girl. I don't think that Hermione is evil or that she does this on purpose. But I think that Hermione's personality will cause her to learn a few hard lesson just like jkr did. Because we are going on 5 books and I see her getting deeper in trouble instead of out it. Hermione is brilliant but her plans go to a certain extent. She though about getting to the forest but she never thinks of a plan to get out of the forest. Furthermore she doesn't think that Umbridge, her or Harry could get killed on the way. She thinks about freeing the house elves but doesn't think what would happend if Howgarts wouldn't have any people to help. She thinks about blackmailing Rita Seeker but she doesn't think what would happen once that year is out and Rita has nothing to loose and if she may be in contact with Malfoy or the evil side. She thinks off plans to a certain extents but not the whole way thru. It scares me that at some point JKR planns to have one of her plans backfire and have something really terrible happend. Look at the forest thing if something would have really happend to Umbridge (which she deserved) Harry and her could have been charged with murder without even deseriving it because I would have loved seeing Umbridge dead.

People here tend to think that I critizized Hermione because I see her as competition for Ginny. WRONG! I see nothing coming up between love triangles. Hermione and Ginny are friends and Ron and Harry are friends. No competitions no love triangles nothing of those cheap tv series and cheap romance novels. There is no doubt in my mind about that.

But the way I see it Hermione is going to learn a few hard lessons on life just because she is extremelly stubborn and refuses to listen. It is usually the way people learn their lessons in life. Specially when they have a personality just like her. She sees what she wants to see and anyone else is wrong. Perhaps she is right but it never kills you to listen to others. Look on how it appears that Luna was right on the fire thing at the ministry yet Hermione refused to believe her. Yes Luna believed in strange stuff but some stuff isn't explain by logic.

Gily Ann

VeelaGirl

July 31st, 2003, 2:58 am

I am hopping aboard the HMS Harmony. Ahoy there! I too believe that Hermione has feelings for Harry, and that Harry is beginning to subconsciously return those feelings. Not fast enough for me though :shrug: , I kept reading OOtP thinking, Harry get a clue, honestly. This was during the DA meeting, US Version OOtP chapter 18.

"'Don't ask,' Harry muttered to Cho as she opened her mouth, looking puzzled. She giggled.
'Hey Harry,' Hermione called from the other end of the room, 'have you checked the time?"

I kind of think that Hermione saw Harry and Cho getting a little friendly and decided to interrupt. I feel for poor Hermione. The feelings within the trio are bubbling just waiting for a catalyst. Which by the way, did anyone catch this quote? This was between Hermione and Terry Boot during a DA meeting.
From US version OOtP; Chapter 19
"'How come you're not in Ravenclaw?' he demanded, staring at Hermione with something close to wonder. 'With brains like yours?'"

Could mean nothing, but with JKR, you never can tell. Watch out Harry and Ron, competition is coming! :evil:

Sirius83

July 31st, 2003, 3:02 am

:welcome: Welcome aboard VeelaGirl! Good to have you on the ship!

Yeah, i noticed that bit with Terry Boot as well. I don't think it means nothing. I believe it could be some sort of catalyst to Harry realising his feelings. While i don't think Hermione will return Terry's feelings(i think she's concious of her feelings for Harry now), i think Terry could very well show signs of liking her - and more openly than Ron. This i think could open Harry's eyes a little...that's all just theory of course.

noddwyd

July 31st, 2003, 3:21 am

lleyki, great post. I think it would be a good thing to show that that type of relationship is possible. In fact, I think we really need to it, nowadays. I'll not quote myself, but I did try and explain in an earlier post the reasons Harry acts the way he does and I think it shows that he is no better off than Ron, if not worse off. And portraying Hermione as some kind of prize....well I'll not go there. No one wants the thread closed, right?

Kalie

July 31st, 2003, 3:23 am

This is my first post here, so bear with me a bit :blush: My usually forums are working, so I decided to join up here in the meantime.

Hate to disagree here. Harry treats Hermione extremelly bad to the point of wanting to shake her. Repeatedly making bring her to tears. Getting annoyed with her not listening to her and also not being sorry for the marks on her hands from Hedwig. He also let's her be insulted and show little care for her when in the Rita seeker articles. Hermione could have been seriously injured and Harry showed little care for that. I hardly think this is being respectfull.

A agree to a certain extent here. Even though this quote does not mention R/Hr, I just want to point out something. Have any of you looked at the difference between R/Hr arguments and H/Hr arguments? When R/Hr argue( not playfully sparring, I might add )they tend to get snappy and distance( i.e. The Yule Ball in which they were standing ten feet apart, bellowing at each other ). While H/Hr arguments tend to be a bit different. Hermione tends to get more emotional when arguing with Harry than with Ron. Why? Could be for many reasons. I remember someone referencing an argument between Harry and Hermione in which they kept moving a bit closer to one another( I'll have to look that up and post it here )while the arguements between R/Hr are distant. And I think I quite remember Ron bringing Hermione to tears a few times, though not nearly as Harry. Like I said, there could be many reasons for that.

Oh, why do you think Neville/Luna? I don't mean to question anybody's pairings, but I see nothing in Book 5 to even suggest it. They rarely talked and Neville was quite scared to even enter the same compartment as her on the Hogwarts Express. The only people I can see her paired off with right now is Ron or Harry, both of whom she has shown interest.

The fact is that Harry is annoyed by Hermione that is on the books. Why would jkr put that it's her question to answer not mine. I didn't make that up. And she does behave like she was his mother. In weird way Hermione and Ron are like Harry's parents and it looks sometimes like if they would be trying to raise him.

Here we go with another "mother" comparrision. This seems to be quite a popular view, even though I'm entitled to disagree with it. Yes, Harry gets annoyed with Hermione at times, but so does Ron, the twins, and several others. I don't think it's fair to single Harry out when others have similar views about Hermione. Hermione behaving like a mother is strictly based on the reader's opinions and not based on fact at all. It all depends on your view of what bieng mother-like is. And I don't think Hermione does that. I remember a bunch of pages back that Hermione gives Harry what he needs, not what he wants. She has his best interests at heart, even if he's too stubborn to see it. I wouldn't take Harry's emotions to heart in this book, seeing has how they weren't quite "in check." His emotions did a complete 180 and I really think that people should use Harry's feelings in OotP the same for the other four books.

I think I better stop here, I'm beginning to ramble *hehe* Hops aboard the HMS Harmony...even though I've loved this ship for ages. *hehe*

VeelaGirl

July 31st, 2003, 3:24 am

Yeah, I don't think she'll completely return his feelings, but hey why not go to tea with him in Hogsmeade. A girl can't hang around waiting for a guy to wake up, besides there's the tried and true method Getting-a-guy-to-notice-you-by-bringing-in-another-guy. A bit sneaky yes, but sometimes you have to kick things up a notch. It could backfire though, really badl.

Turambar

July 31st, 2003, 3:41 am

Nice posts Evaluna, Lleyki. And thanks Mars: Sone had a really good post earlier that made me think of those.

Mad Eye Mike

July 31st, 2003, 3:41 am

Lleyki - Great post. :tu:

Fellow Harmonians, please :welcome: two new shipmates to the HMS Harmony - VeelaGirl and Kalie.

Now I must warn you two. We have a member on Harmony named Hawk 92. He will attempt to recruit you into his M16 division of the HMS Harmony. Do not take him up on his offer as that division is currently under investigation. :p

VeelaGirl - Terry Boot has not gone unnoticed. If I'm correct, he complimented Hermione twice and I'm pretty sure we'll see him again in book 6.

Turambar

July 31st, 2003, 3:45 am

Mike, that pic of yours is seriously creepy :scared: And Sirius' gives me eyestrain.

PotterIdentity

July 31st, 2003, 4:34 am

Wow, I just spent like three hours reading through this thread and I have to apologize in advance for saying stuff that others have already posted.

First, I had no idea how many H/Hr. shippers there were out there! What's interesting is that I was all for Ron and Hermione, until I got to Book Five. I just re-read OotP and my perception of the story has changed a bit in the sense that I really feel like the bulk of Book Five encompasses the relationship between Harry and Hermione, but maybe not necessarily in a romantic way. There are several points in the OotP that really display the emotional intensity developing between Harry and Hermione (for examples, lleyki made an excellent post in the very beginning of this thread you can refer to).

I know there are several people out there who believe that Hermione is a bit too brash to really reach Harry, and though I agree with some of this to an extent, I am a firm believer that Harry knows Hermione means well and is able to see through situations of which he is not able to fully comprehend. I feel like in OotP, we were able to really see this side of Hermione and by the end of the book, Harry came to the realization that Hermione was correct in her judgements (with the exception of leading Umbridge into the forest) and wished he had listened to her regarding the whole Sirius and DOM dream (just one example). Basically, what I am getting at is that I think in Book Six we are going to see this relationship deepen even more and Harry will learn to let go of some of his angst when dealing with both Ron and Hermione, but moreso Hermione because I think he will have such a better understanding of what she is really trying to communicate when dealing with him, beyond her being extremely blunt. I think once Harry allows himself to let go of some of his angst and depression, we will really see his relationship with Hermione begin to change to more of a romantic partnership, but I think it will be very subtle because JKR would never make that too obvious when she has created an "old married couple" vibe between Ron and Hermione. I would honestly consider OotP the beginning of this relationship between Harry and Hermione, though I would not be surprised if even by Book Seven, it's all still very subtle. Though I can pick up many hints in the previous books, none have quite stuck out to me as much as OotP.

On another note, I don't think Harry will be as angry in Book Six as he was in Five now that the truth is out, but I am sure Sirius's death and going right back to the Dursley's with so much new information and emotion to process; he obviously won't be happy.

I have also pondered the idea of Harry only telling Hermione about the prophecy at first because looking back, Harry consciously went to Hermione before Ron, even when it was just as conveinent to go to Ron. He may tell the both of them at the same time or maybe, he won't say anything at all? That could be interesting...

Now, it's also hard to judge Ron's character based on OotP because I felt that Ron and Harry's priorities were just so different that I can't necessarily say that Ron is not maturing, however, I feel like Hermione is more of Harry's rock in all of this than Ron. I think in Book Six Harry and Ron will finally be playing Quidditch with each other again and Ron will show a bit more empathy to Harry because of Sirius, but I still forsee Harry turning to Hermione when he needs to discuss something that's more related to the deep burdens of his life.

Either way, I am really all for Harry and Hermione now and I hope that by the end of Book Seven, Hermione gives Harry a kiss and says, "I love you." I also hope that Harry is able to calm Hermione's brashness and in return, Harry is able to have clearer judgement without Hermione's assistance. Harry and Hermione really do need each other...in so many ways. :agree:

Mad Eye Mike

July 31st, 2003, 5:00 am

PotterIdentity - :welcome: on board the HMS Harmony (as well as to the thread).

:clap: Another day, another person sees the light. :clap:

Turambar - Muhahahaha. :evil:

Let me ask everyone this question:

Assuming they all live, whom would you like to see Neville wind up with? Ginny, Luna or Hermione?

MoF

July 31st, 2003, 5:20 am

It is interesting that a lot of the new posters inhere ships H/Hr becuse it developed more in book 5. It's the same thing with me, I thought that H/Hr was the ship with the best possibilty of happening as things turned out in book 5. I didn't ship anything before book 5. And welcome to you all! :welcome:

Everybody in here is doing an amazing job defending H/Hr :clap: to everybody.

And GilyAnn:

I'll carry that owl, if you like,' said Luna to Harry, reaching out for Pigwidgeon as Neville stowed Trevor carefully in an inside pocket.

I think that this is more like a Ron/luna hint, suggesting that she carried Pigwidgeon just to talk to Ron:

'Here you are, she said. 'Heøs a sweet little owl, isn't he?
'Er...yeah...he's all right' said Ron gruffly. 'Well, come on the, let's get in...what were you saying Harry?'

Turambar

July 31st, 2003, 5:24 am

:rotfl: @ Mike. Okay so I'm a whimp, what's wrong with that?!

I meant to say before I liked Lleyki's point about Molly.
I thought the whole period after the snake dream showed limits to Harry's involvement with the Weasleys. Obviously the fact he felt guilt about the attack was a strong part of that. But he did feel apart from them as Sirius, Tonks and Moody did, he was unable to comfort Ron over his father, and they were unable to comfort him over his feelings until Hermione arrived. I think this is part of the OOTP theme of growing up, the transition to adulthood, Harry gaining leadership and power. The next step is gaining a partner rather than a surrogate family where he is someone's surrogate son.

ally62442

July 31st, 2003, 6:12 am

Hey every one!
The fifth book was great and i reckon the sixth book is gonna be even better. Harry and every one are getting older and there are new characters so i reckon there is gonna be a lot more dating going on in the sixth book. I really want Ron and Hermione to go out it is obvious he likes her. I dont think any thing will happen between Harry and Cho again but i want it to. I reckon Harry and Luna Lovegood will go out because they have somthing in common, but i cant make up my mind if Luna likes Harry or Ron. Ginny seems to have grown up alot and is a better character now she isnt shy around Harry and she has had the most relationships so far. Hermione and Krum might start seeing each other but i dont think any thing big will come out of it. An as for Harry and Hermione i hope they will just stay really good friends. Cya ally

cloud_9_83

July 31st, 2003, 6:48 am

in an interview with JKR done on the second disk of COS...she says that the screenwriter hinted to something that she didn't get to until the 4th book...all through COS harry was holding hermiones hand...she hugged him...at the end of the fourth book she kissed him on the cheek...in the fifth book she sounded a little bit bitter about Cho until she realized that Cho felt that harry liked hermione...in the room with all of the fortunes...harry grabs hermiones robes and tries to keep her with him...plus one more thing that gets me...if lets say one day hermione and harry get married...who would be the best man...ron...lily was muggle born...so was hermione....harry was a wizard so was his day...adn ron the best man would be pure blooded...just like sirius...i guess i just really think that harry adn hermione would complement each other...maybe i'm reaching to far :sad:

Hawk 92

July 31st, 2003, 7:35 am

Now I must warn you two. We have a member on Harmony named Hawk 92. He will attempt to recruit you into his M16 division of the HMS Harmony. Do not take him up on his offer as that division is currently under investigation.

One would think that a bean counter could tell the difference between a 1 and a I. But after looking at his eyebrows from his picture in his avatar I could see how he'd get mixed up. :p

Now to talk about Ron/Luna for a moment,

She stared and stared at Harry, who had taken the seat opposite her and now wished he hadn't.
'Had a good summer, Luna?' Ginny asked.
'Yes,' said Luna dreamily, without taking her eyes off Harry. 'Yes, it was quite enjoyable, you know. You're Harry Potter,' she added.

Harry gets stared at all the time and to say that Luna staring at Harry is something is kind of like implying that a lot of people are interested in Harry. What's interesting is how much Luna stares at Ron. Now Ron almost never gets stared at like that.

I'll carry that owl, if you like,' said Luna to Harry, reaching out for Pigwidgeon as Neville stowed Trevor carefully in an inside pocket.

I agree with MoF here. Its interesting that of all the things that Luna could have offered to help with she specifically asks for Pig. Kind of like the Crookshanks/Harry theory.

'It's all right,' said a dreamy voice from beside Harry as Ron vanished into the coach's dark interior. 'You're not going mad or anything. I can see them, too.'

Why is Ron even inserted into this by JKR if its supposed to be a Harry/Luna moment? And it could be debated that this was to tell us that Harry really was seeing something real but in a way that only JKR can tell us :elaugh:

A few seconds later, Luna Lovegood emerged, trailing behind the rest of the class, a smudge of earth on her nose, and her hair tied in a knot on the top of her head. When she saw Harry, her prominent eyes seemed to bulge excitedly and she made a beeline straight for him. Many of his classmates turned curiously to watch. Luna took a great breath and then said, without so much as a preliminary hello, 'I believe He Who Must Not Be Named is back and I believe you fought him and escaped from him.'

This one is interesting. I guess we'll have to wait and see if this is a genuine moment or not. It's also interesting how Hermione reacted to this.

She broke off, looking rather confused, and an awkward silence fell between them; Terry Boot's wand went whizzing past Harry's ear and hit Alicia Spinnet hard on the nose.
'Well, my dad is very supportive of any anti-Ministry action!' said Luna Lovegood proudly from just behind Harry; evidently she had been eavesdropping on his conversation

This one is not so interesting. The word evidently is telling. Now remember that Luna has a habit of making strange statements at strange times. Its reasonable to suspect that she had just said this without eavesdropping at all.

Harry had only just managed to get the last of them down before the door creaked open and Luna Lovegood entered, looking as dreamy as usual.
'Hello,' she said vaguely, looking around at what remained of the decorations. These are nice, did you put them up?'
'No,' said Harry, 'it was Dobby the house-elf.'
'Mistletoe,' said Luna dreamily, pointing at a large clump of white berries placed almost over Harry's head.

Once again not as interesting as Cho and Harry kissed under the mistletoe and Luna does have a habit of pointing things out at random. In this aspect she seems to be a little like Dumbledore. Bringing to our attention things that will play out later, like the room of requirement that Dumbledore spoke of in Gof.

So Luna is also interested in Harry. But I still say that she is for Neville.

OK now I get Ron/Luna and I can see some speculation for Harry/Luna but the whole Neville/Luna I just don't see any hints for that at all.

And a :clap: :clap: :clap: to Lleyki great posts and always worth the wait.

Cheers!

No I take that back Mike just doesn't know the difference between a 1 and a I. Very distourbing for a bean counter to not know that :nc: :lol:

sone

July 31st, 2003, 8:17 am

FlyingPhoenix

July 31st, 2003, 8:31 am

Wow, you guys are crazy really. How comes that everytime I read a new post I'm always surprised how many things I didn't saw. Really, really great(wrong word) better wonderful post by lleyki and everybody who is new a big :welcome: to this thread.

Every one speaks of Harry loving Hermione sub-consciously, I believe this to be true. This was shown to us when Cho was dancing with Harry in front of Prof. McGonnagal, and by the end of the dance, Cho turned to Hermione. That is pure brain activity telling him what lies in store for him, as well as a wonderful display of foreshadowing by Mrs. JKR.

I don't know where I can find this in canon because there is only one quote in OotP where this happens but they aren't dancing its a dream. Maybe you can help me out there.

"The greatest thing you can ever learn, is how to love, and be loved in Return"
This quote has simply caught the quintessential piece of the way JKR is sending this series, as Harry must learn how to love others as much as they have shown him love. In particular, Hermione... who has been the person who stood by Harry as Harry, and not as the boy-who-lived. I have found that even Ron at times, has shown that he is a fan at times as well, where Hermione will take the good and the bad every single minute Harry is alive.
I believe that the greatest, most powerful emotion a human (or wizard) can display is to show love in return, and I find that this is the only thing about love that Harry's story truly lacks. True he does have love for others, and friends, but the only thing Harry has truly lacked is one true love, a love above all others.

I think this have to be me. Now I agree that Harrys task is to learn to love and to beloved in return but not only in case of true love.
I see I'm on my favouriete topic. Well, I don't like that fact that we make differents between love and romantical love or true love. I think there comes lleyki's post into play a part which I really like.

Many persons want to make Ron out to be some poor guy and Harry as getting everything; but that really isn't the case. It astounds me when persons have this view after reading the books and you take a scene like when Mrs.Weasley was reacting to Ron's being made prefect. I'm sure in persons bid to believe poor Ron was finally being vindicated, no one stopped to think how Harry might have felt in that moment. Now don't get me wrong, Mrs. Weasley had EVERY right to be proud of her son but imagine Harry, orphan as he is, had to stand and watch Mrs Weasley fawn and be so proud of her son; knowing he will never have that. Because the truth is no matter how much Mrs. Weasley loves Harry and supports him and takes care of him, because she's naturally a mothering woman, essentially Sirius was right; she's NOT his mother. She will never love him like Lily did and judging by how much people love Lily, she was pretty ****ed amazing; but Harry'll never know that personally and I just shake my head at persons acting like Harry gets everything. Right. That's why when it's all said and done, I think why shouldn't he have Hermione in the end? Why shouldn't he be with the ONE person who has supported him, stood by him, loved him, defended him, unwaveringly throughout?

Thats exactly how I see it. Thats what I mean. I need to explain somethings especially Harry.
Its for me amazing that people so easiely forget that Harry don't has parents. This means he never did know them not that he could remember them. Its like that Harry did grow up eleven years only by his relative. People who have great dislike against him. It would be allright if he did find people away from that which did like him since his very day as he was born. Let say an aunt or a old woman or just a friend but this He don't has. He never know how it is if people really like him till the very day as Hagrid stood into the door and told him he is a wizard. But the demage is already done. Nobody can take it away, can make this hole in Harrys heart vanish. Harry has a far streched idea from his parents. Its simple the dursleys didn't like them so this say they had to be the wonderful people on the planet. Now comes Hagrid and tells him all this wonderful stuff about his parents. This create a view at his parents which say they were perfect, they were everything what Harry all his live wanted but will never get.
On the train Harry find his very first friend. To be honest it wasn't difficult to become friend with Ron. Thats what I think is very interest this fact. Harry saw the very first Time how a family works. He never saw it like that by the Dursleys was to much and more played as to be real. But here it was again perfect, this family was again everything Harry did want but will never have. For sure Harry wished at this very moment he had red hairs and be a part of this family. At this moment Harry has to know he don't has a family and will not have something like that.
The interst part comes now to play as Hermione steps into Harrys live. Why is that interst? Because its wasn't easy to become friend with. To be exactly it needed a 12 feet high trol to get her as his friend. IMO is that interest if not a path how the relationship will be with her. And its on Halloween. Now to the love part Ron do give Harry a kind of love or supporting but in every single way is it very different to what Hermione give Harry.
By Hermione is her emotions for Harry from the very first book visible its there that she do like him and she say it in a way to him. For someone who never get such kinds of supporting words, not even from Ron or Hagrid, someone who never get a hug which was mean for him like a real hug is it something really special to Harry. In all 10 years of his live with the dursleys and his year at Hogwarts Harry did never get that what Hermione gave him before he faced Quirell/Snape. She didn't say it because he is Harry Potter, she did say it because he is her best friend. At this moment was create a special bound between them.
Why create such an emotional bound between Harry and Hermione if JKR don't want use it? From this monent Harry do know Hermione care about him this implied from this moment Hermione is the person who can reach him. Even if she annoy him or tell him off Harry knows everytime in every single second that she do it for him, for Harry. Thats says Harry knows already a person who would do everything for him. Not in a way like Ron. I have no doubt Ron would do everything, too but this is different. Hermione would even risk her friendship with Harry and thats selfless someone who, what we know from PS/SS, never had real friend is that hug. I said nobody could fill this hole in Harrys heart, no Mrs Weasley even if she loves him like a son it will be never like a real mother, not Ron even he is his best friend since the hogwarts train but here comes Hermione into play. Because of this bound, because of the fact that she was the first person in Harrys live who did say this things about him and did hug him and even said be careful is she the one who could give him something what Harry never had. Its not that Ginny might not good enough or not smart enough its simply the fact that she can't reach Harrys heart. Hermione can reach it she did this in her first year. You can't tell me that as Hermione said this things and did hug him she didn't reach him. She was possible the very first person who did so. Just imagine you has never felt love in your live.
You built a wall around you, something what can nobody reach. Behind this wall is by Harry his idea from his parents like treasure. Now comes a person, to be exactly a girl into your live which is probably the most interfering person you has ever meet and tell you things which you wished someone maybe your relative had said before to you. This reach your heart and gos straight through your wall. With this she did create an exclusiv path to you something what Ginny won't never have. Even she would reach him in furture like that it will be always Hermione who did it first. See what I mean JKR did already create in the very first book the foundament of H/Hr something what make me think this will happen. I haven't doubts that they are only teenagers and won't feel this kind of love no you seem to forget Harrys part, his lack of something like love thats the keypoint what let me believe that JKR did plane from the very beginning H/Hr. And there can come thousand girls and fall for Harry they all haven't this path to Harrys heart. That is what I mean if I say Hermione can reach him. Something what Ron, Mrs. Weasley, Ginny, Dumbledore, Cho never can. Sirius he could reach Harry because he is part of Harrys treasure, part of his perfect picture of his parents.

zymorgs

July 31st, 2003, 8:42 am

i think they will they are a good pair.
i wish hermione and victor will be lovely pair
and cho and harry

v@sh

July 31st, 2003, 9:02 am

Theres this quote from the book during the scene when the gang are in hospital after their encounters in the DoM which caught me off guard. I don't know exactly what it means, prob. a red herring JKR left. Anyone care to quickly explain it to me:

Hermione seemed to struggle with herself for a moment, then said, 'That sounds lovely'.

Ginny caught Harry's eye and looked away quickly, grinning.

FlyingPhoenix

July 31st, 2003, 9:13 am

Hermione seemed to struggle with herself for a moment, then said, 'That sounds lovely'.

Ginny caught Harry's eye and looked away quickly, grinning.

That was what I didn't get at first either but its how Hermione do suddenly try to be nice to Luna and Hermione dos it with difficult thats why Ginny is grinning. Both Harry and Ginny know Hermione and how she do argue irrational facts thats why Ginny look at Harry. But the interest part is Harry don't grinning back like in PoA where he did grin, too.

MagicianGirl

July 31st, 2003, 9:45 am

oh my gosh Mad Eye Mike your avatar is friggin scary. goodness it's scary. anyhoo i've said this so many times before Harry is subconsciously checking Ginny out. Harry will soon cosciously realise that Ginny is a 'wow' person and put the moves. R/H will happen soon also.
I agree :agree: I read entire book again for the nth times to look objectively about the possible clues of the ships but one thing that stands out for me was the times that Harry noticed Ginny. He somehow knows what she was doing, where she was and what her appearance looks like. :D

sone

July 31st, 2003, 9:47 am

Actually MG, I think it is the reverse.

Buckbeak

July 31st, 2003, 9:56 am

Wow Flying Pheonix that long post was great, it brought a tear to my eye :sad: . As much as id love Harry and Hermione to stay friends, i can't argue with the fact that there is something between them that is different to every other relationship of Harry's.

MagicianGirl

July 31st, 2003, 10:08 am

She was also the person who went in and critizized Sirius at the beginning of the book when there was no danger and disregarding the feelings had for this person. Hermione constantly critized Sirius with little regard of Harry's emotions for this man.
Gily Ann
I agree. Hermione doesn't seem to understand what Sirius meant to Harry. When Harry told them about his vision of Sirius being tortured in the Ministry & wanted to go & save him Hermione told him that "he has a thing about saving people". Of course she was right in the end that it indeed a trap but she hadn't realizez that Sirius is not just some people but someone that Harry loved the most. Of course Harry would try to go & save him not for fun of playing hero but b/c he cared & loved Sirius. That was one thing that "slightly" annoyed me about Hermione. After Sirius' death what did Harry do he blamed himself. Hermione's word came back to haunt him but I don't take that as a positive sign b/c it would make Harry reluctant to do what he is destined to do & that is save not only people but maybe the whole wizarding and muggle world.

Ecthelion

July 31st, 2003, 11:03 am

Lleyki and FlyingPhoenix, I couldn't agree with you more on the topic of making Ron look poor and forgotton. Sometimes people need to remember that out of all the things he gets, he's also lost just as many, perhaps more. Great job :tu:

I agree. Hermione doesn't seem to understand what Sirius meant to Harry. When Harry told them about his vision of Sirius being tortured in the Ministry & wanted to go & save him Hermione told him that "he has a thing about saving people". Of course she was right in the end that it indeed a trap but she hadn't realizez that Sirius is not just some people but someone that Harry loved the most. Of course Harry would try to go & save him not for fun of playing hero but b/c he cared & loved Sirius. That was one thing that "slightly" annoyed me about Hermione. After Sirius' death what did Harry do he blamed himself. Hermione's word came back to haunt him but I don't take that as a positive sign b/c it would make Harry reluctant to do what he is destined to do & that is save not only people but maybe the whole wizarding and muggle world.

Hermione also understands what Sirius was doing through Harry and what his true motives were. If she really did know his true motives than it would get noticeably harder to appreciate him, and therefore, respect Harry's thoughts about him. Considering Sirius is an up-graded version of Fred and George, I thought she treated him much better that I thought she would. And it is my belief that she did so because of Harry. This means she would have noticed Harry's obvious connection to Sirius, she isn't unobservant. However, her natural dislike of who and what Sirius had become over the last year conflicted with her devotion to respect Harry's feelings as well. That is why we saw her acting so nervous and sometimes sharp to Harry. She felt obligated to tell him her thoughts on Sirius yet she wanted to respect Harry as well. And when she is nervous or uncomfortable she tends to resort to the snappish, almost precocious girl we saw in her first year. Nothing against Harry, it's just what she turns too when faced with a difficult situation of that circumstance.

By the way, :welcome: to all of our new shipmates and GPE :) :tu:

writer007

July 31st, 2003, 11:04 am

If Harry goes out with Ginny, does that mean he does not care for Hermione? Hello....guys can still care for girls as their friend. Likewise, Hermione still cares for Harry even if she likes Ron, NOT because she is in love with Harry. Besides, Hermione is always bickering with Ron like Mrs. Weasley always yells at Mr. Weasley. I'm sorry, but I just think it is so cute. :)

Anyway, here are the couples I think should happen:

Ron/Hermione
Harry/someone new

These couples could happen:
Harry/Ginny (for a brief time? it's too predicable, so JK won't do that)
Ginny/Draco (Romeo/Juliet where the two families hate each other???)
Draco/Hermione (he wants what he can't have, and when Hermione slaps him, he never retaliates)
Harry/Hermione (but who will Ron end up with? Luna?)
Harry/Luna (could happen...)
Harry/Cho (might get back together as a huge surprise...who knows?)
Ron/Luna (which leaves Harry/Hermione)

Anyway, I love Ron and I think it'll be great if Hermione went out with him. :)

OH YEAH...

small hints that Hermione is like Mrs. Weasley:

KNITS stuff for elfs like Mrs. Weasley knits
FOLLOWS the rules while Ron breaks them! Mr. Weasley broke the law (lol) and Mrs. Weasley yelled at him
Gets bright eyed look
Seems to know what's going on all the time/Confronts Harry/Ron whenever they want to sneak out

:)

sone

July 31st, 2003, 11:19 am

Harry/Hermione (but who will Ron end up with? Luna?)

Who knows? But it is certainly possible. If Hermione spoke of Ron the way Luna did, no one would be doubting who Hermione likes.

MagicianGirl

July 31st, 2003, 11:20 am

[QUOTE=Ecthelion][B]
Hermione also understands what Sirius was doing through Harry and what his true motives were. If she really did know his true motives than it would get noticeably harder to appreciate him, and therefore, respect Harry's thoughts about him. Considering Sirius is an up-graded version of Fred and George, I thought she treated him much better that I thought she would. And it is my belief that she did so because of Harry. This means she would have noticed Harry's obvious connection to Sirius, she isn't unobservant. However, her natural dislike of who and what Sirius had become over the last year conflicted with her devotion to respect Harry's feelings as well. That is why we saw her acting so nervous and sometimes sharp to Harry. She felt obligated to tell him her thoughts on Sirius yet she wanted to respect Harry as well. And when she is nervous or uncomfortable she tends to resort to the snappish, almost precocious girl we saw in her first year. Nothing against Harry, it's just what she turns too when faced with a difficult situation of that circumstance.
QUOTE]
What is Sirius' true motives w/ regards to Harry? Yes she did noticed Harry's connection w/ Sirius' but not Harry's "emotional connection" to Sirius. She only saw the danger and recklessness of the situation not Harry's worries & emotional feelings about Sirius. Why would she have to say that particular comment when the person involve is the person Harry loved the most. It was a very insensitive comment in a situation when what Harry needed the most is some sort of assurance & words of comfort

evaluna

July 31st, 2003, 11:24 am

:welcome: all ye who enter here [and especially to ye who board our ship] !
Thanks very much to MEM, Hawk, Turambar et al! Love your posts as well! And great posts to all fellow shippers and travellers. Ilyeki, you have just perfectly captured in all 5 points my own personal reasons for my position. May I frame that post? FP, yet again, I was moved by your analysis of Harry's emotional vantage and I completely agree.

Original post by Avada Kedavra
I see your point fully about Granger interpreting it loosely, and your connections, but if this is indeed a real parallel, then I don't think JKR would have checked it up TOO deeply. She might have, to some extent, but not to that depth as you have covered so that every last detail checks out. (If she did that for the rest, we'd still be waiting for COS! ).

I think the Luna connection is more plausible, but I don't agree- because Ron and Luna don't argue. In fact, Ron barely acknowledges her. Ron argues with only one person. Who? I don't know.

AK: thanks for your feedback. I respect your position but I really do feel that JKR has reviewed much of this mythological and archetypal material and is quite well aware of her sources. Whether she holds to every aspect or not applies as much to her as to any other author who utilises these sources, i.e., it's for her to decide and for us to debate. However, as to whether she's aware of the larger themes, symbolic links, and primary details, IMO it's quite clear that she is:

Vulcan is such an anti-hero: dark, suffering, maimed, ill-favoured half brother of golden Apollo - so of course he was always my favourite. But Vulcan's true legacy was humankind. Of all the gods, Vulcan [ref. Ea/Enki in Babylonian mythology] was humankind's most steadfast supporter, teaching us the principles of mining, metalworking, architecture, mathematics, science, and so on - in short, all the concrete necessities for building our civilisations - as Hermes likewise addressed and taught us the intangible esoterics necessary for the spiritual understanding and progress of the species: reason, wisdom, healing, and art. Re: Vulcan, we have from the most unlikely source, the ill-favoured anti-hero, the one capable of changing the world with…yes with his skills, but most of all, with his love and compassion for humankind.

I still say JKR knows her sources, AK. She knows. :)

P.S. That was merely chastising for seeming to require Hermione's wishes [or Harry's] be subsumed to Ron's, whether you intended to do or not, AK not head biting! No head biting allowed... unless MEM gets any ideas while under cover as Dirty Harry...)

Original post by GilyAnn

But the way I see it Hermione is going to learn a few hard lessons on life just because she is extremelly stubborn and refuses to listen. It is usually the way people learn their lessons in life. Specially when they have a personality just like her. She sees what she wants to see and anyone else is wrong. Perhaps she is right but it never kills you to listen to others. Look on how it appears that Luna was right on the fire thing at the ministry yet Hermione refused to believe her. Yes Luna believed in strange stuff but some stuff isn't explain by logic.

GilyAnn, I believe that Luna [and Lupin] do have much to teach Harry, as I said in prior posts, and that they will be key in helping Harry overcome some key obstacles to spiritual growth and understanding necessary to Harry in turn overcoming Voldy. I think they, along with Hermione as the source of love and light for Harry, will underscore just what Harry's greatest strengths are [love, compassion] and reveal through their faith in him how to use his greatest strengths [love and compassion projected through emanation] to overcome Voldy and change the world, to use a trite expression. Because per Kabbalah, if you've saved one life, one soul, you've saved the world. Perhaps Voldy will have to physically die to be saved, yeah, but maybe the power of love will save him nonetheless in the end? Who knows…But I do think that by end of OoP, Hermione has begun to see the value of Luna's perspective and her contribution in support of Harry at the DoM, which for Hermione means that she has begun to recognise the value of other perspectives and other contributions. Hermione is by nature compassionate, and she is learning ever more about practising the tolerance in her own behaviour that she wants from others in support of opposition to racism and prejudice.

Also on your point re: Hermione learning hard lessons, you bring up an interesting point and you are correct in that Hermione does believe in the rightness of her position on slavery. Whether lack of 'help' inconveniences wizards is beside the point, IMO. Let them be inconvenienced. If Hermione's issues were trite, you would perhaps assume selfishness or immaturity. However, the issue is central to our humanity, and Hermione has stood on her convictions in the face of apathy, opposition, & conflict - not an easy thing to do. She is essentially said that this is an issue for which she would risk everything. She has aligned herself with equality and justice and a basic dignity and respect inherent in existence. The reality is that, in the end, you must live with yourself and pick those issues, those battles that you feel are most worthwhile and which you feel give your life and the lives of others meaning [ref Viktor Frankl et al…hey where's BabyMars anyway? ;)]. Hermione comes to this understanding naturally, meaning, she gets it on the big scale. She's just still learning how to perform the practical translation in her daily life, as are we all.

GilyAnn

July 31st, 2003, 11:27 am

On the train Harry find his very first friend. To be honest it wasn't difficult to become friend with Ron.

Excuse me! With all do respect FlyingPhoenix this is going far and simply trying to discredit something that is on Cannon. Harry NEVER became friends with Hermione on the train. In fact just like Ron he couldn't stand her. H/Hr need to start disregarding the importance of Ron on the series. Like or not for us The Weasley's are important on the book and they are going to be important in the end. Jkr considers them the 'perfect or ideal family' and I highly doubt that after she created them for the selfish purpose of her own self pleasure she is planning to destroy them. Sure she may want to shake them up but over all they are important.

Ron is the character that Harry will miss the most not HERMIONE. In OoP we saw repeteadly how important is Ron to Harry. Just because Ron was an *easier* friend to make doesn't disregard the FACT that Ron is one of the most important persons in Harry's life.

'Hedwig!'
The snowy owl clicked her beak and nibbled his ear affectionately as Harry stroked her feathers.
'She's been in a right state,' said Ron. 'Pecked us half to death when she brought your last letters, look at this -'
He showed Harry the index finger ol his right hand, which sported a half-healed but clearly deep cut.
'Oh, yeah,' Harry said. 'Sorry about that, but I wanted answers, you know -'
>>>cut<<<
There was a strained silence in which Harry stroked Hedwig automatically, not looking at either of the others.
'He seemed to think it was best,' said Hermione rather breathlessly. 'Dumbledore, I mean.'
'Right,' said Harry. He noticed that her hands, too, bore the marks of Hedwigs beak and found that he was not at all sorry.

Ron's marks are the ones Harry is sorry for not Hermione's.

But as Hermione and Ron dragged their trunks, Crookshanks and a caged Pigwidgeon off towards the engine end of the train, Harry felt an odd sense of loss. He had never travelled on the Hogwarts Express without Ron.

Is Ron's loss what upsets Harry not Hermione's.

Hermione was going skiing with her parents, something that greatly amused Ron, who had never heard of Muggles strapping narrow strips of wood on to their feet to slide down mountains. Ron was going home to The Burrow. Harry endured several days of envy before Ron said, in response to Harry asking him how he was going to get home for Christmas: 'But you're coming too! Didn't I say? Mum wrote and told me to invite you weeks ago!'
Hermione rolled her eyes, but Harry's spirits soared: the thought of Christmas at The Burrow was truly wonderful, though slightly marred by Harry's guilty feeling that he would not be able to spend the holiday with Sirius

Hermione sounds like is going to have a great vacation and she will do something that Harry knows what it is. Yet is Ron's boring xmas vacation at the Burrow what brings envy to Harry. Is Ron's house what brings Harry's spirit back up. Is Ron the one Harry's heart wishes to spend close time with.

Off course we have GoF were we have Harry tell us how much he missed Ron in more than 3 occassions and how happy he was to have him back more than twice.

Sure you may to say that I'm bashing Hermione but I'm sorry to say it's not me. The one who wrote that is JKR and if anyone should answer why is Ron so close to Harry's heart is JKR not me. To disregard the importance of Ron in Harry's life is simply disregarding Cannon.

The interst part comes now to play as Hermione steps into Harrys live. Why is that interst? Because its wasn't easy to become friend with. To be exactly it needed a 12 feet high trol to get her as his friend. IMO is that interest if not a path how the relationship will be with her. And its on Halloween. Now to the love part Ron do give Harry a kind of love or supporting but in every single way is it very different to what Hermione give Harry.

What! How is it that Hermione's 'love' is different. Do you mean to tell me that Hermione was helplessly in love with Harry at that moment? What I did saw was how Hermione, a control freak already, was able to manage Ron and Harry's agenda. What I did saw was on how her bookish part was able to help them get organized and be more responsable. Why I did saw was *them* (I must include Ron on this) become more serious of their studys. What I saw was a friendship developing.

By Hermione is her emotions for Harry from the very first book visible its there that she do like him and she say it in a way to him. For someone who never get such kinds of supporting words, not even from Ron or Hagrid, someone who never get a hug which was mean for him like a real hug is it something really special to Harry. In all 10 years of his live with the dursleys and his year at Hogwarts Harry did never get that what Hermione gave him before he faced Quirell/Snape. She didn't say it because he is Harry Potter, she did say it because he is her best friend. At this moment was create a special bound between them.

Ok so Hermione was already in love with Harry in book 1. Where is this love? What I saw was someone knowing that her best friend was probably going to face death. What I did saw was someone saying goodbye to someone he deeply cared for. And what is this bond made off? The only thing I see there is Hermione and Ron's care for Harry. If we are talking about bonds that Ron and Harry have a deeper one because Ron sacrified himself for them. By now we all know how deep that bond is.

Why create such an emotional bound between Harry and Hermione if JKR don't want use it? From this monent Harry do know Hermione care about him this implied from this moment Hermione is the person who can reach him. Even if she annoy him or tell him off Harry knows everytime in every single second that she do it for him, for Harry. Thats says Harry knows already a person who would do everything for him. Not in a way like Ron. I have no doubt Ron would do everything, too but this is different. Hermione would even risk her friendship with Harry and thats selfless someone who, what we know from PS/SS, never had real friend is that hug. I said nobody could fill this hole in Harrys heart, no Mrs Weasley even if she loves him like a son it will be never like a real mother, not Ron even he is his best friend since the hogwarts train but here comes Hermione into play. Because of this bound, because of the fact that she was the first person in Harrys live who did say this things about him and did hug him and even said be careful is she the one who could give him something what Harry never had. Its not that Ginny might not good enough or not smart enough its simply the fact that she can't reach Harrys heart. Hermione can reach it she did this in her first year. You can't tell me that as Hermione said this things and did hug him she didn't reach him. She was possible the very first person who did so. Just imagine you has never felt love in your live.

Problem is that Harry has also the *bond* of Ron sacrificing himself for him. Ginny has also a *bond* with him. Harry has an awful lot of bonds. To say that Mrs. Weasley's won't reach Harry even when she says she loves him like a son is simply not true. Harry was deeply touch by Mrs. Weasley's words that he was good as a son. If Hermione was able to *reach* Harry with that *hug* jkr sure the hell is lousy writter then. Because over the next books Harry has done more disregarding, ignorance, annoyance and objections to Hermione than anyone else. He has not remembe that hug in 5 years and has not though about it twice just like the kiss.

You built a wall around you, something what can nobody reach. Behind this wall is by Harry his idea from his parents like treasure. Now comes a person, to be exactly a girl into your live which is probably the most interfering person you has ever meet and tell you things which you wished someone maybe your relative had said before to you. This reach your heart and gos straight through your wall. With this she did create an exclusiv path to you something what Ginny won't never have. Even she would reach him in furture like that it will be always Hermione who did it first. See what I mean JKR did already create in the very first book the foundament of H/Hr something what make me think this will happen. I haven't doubts that they are only teenagers and won't feel this kind of love no you seem to forget Harrys part, his lack of something like love thats the keypoint what let me believe that JKR did plane from the very beginning H/Hr. And there can come thousand girls and fall for Harry they all haven't this path to Harrys heart. That is what I mean if I say Hermione can reach him. Something what Ron, Mrs. Weasley, Ginny, Dumbledore, Cho never can. Sirius he could reach Harry because he is part of Harrys treasure, part of his perfect picture of his parents.

How in the world the conclusion that Hermione is part of Harry perfect past was reached? That simply isn't true. Dumbledore can reach Harry easily he knows when he is lying, he knows when something is upsetting Harry. Dumbledore gets' Harry to confide what Riddle tells him and how did the sorting hat was going to put him on Slythering, Ron get's shown to constantly be able to either Harry's mind or to know what he is thinking, Mrs. Weasley is like Harry's surrogate mother she shows care for Harry like a son and Harry apreciates it back Cho was Harry's crush and Harry found quickly how easy it was to talk to her. In fact he said it was just as easy to talk to RON and Hermione. He confide in Ginny that he wanted to talk to Sirius and he jokes with her with the Lockhart thing. To say that Hermione is the only one that reaches Harry is simply not true because cannon tells us otherwise. If being able to reach Harry is the *only* qualification for Harry's love interest let's include Luna also on the list above.

Hermione also understands what Sirius was doing through Harry and what his true motives were. If she really did know his true motives than it would get noticeably harder to appreciate him, and therefore, respect Harry's thoughts about him. Considering Sirius is an up-graded version of Fred and George, I thought she treated him much better that I thought she would. And it is my belief that she did so because of Harry. This means she would have noticed Harry's obvious connection to Sirius, she isn't unobservant. However, her natural dislike of who and what Sirius had become over the last year conflicted with her devotion to respect Harry's feelings as well. That is why we saw her acting so nervous and sometimes sharp to Harry. She felt obligated to tell him her thoughts on Sirius yet she wanted to respect Harry as well. And when she is nervous or uncomfortable she tends to resort to the snappish, almost precocious girl we saw in her first year. Nothing against Harry, it's just what she turns too when faced with a difficult situation of that circumstance.

Hermione hardly respected Harry's feelings for Sirius. She frequently spoke ill of Harry having no consideration of his feelings. If Harry and Hermione would be bound to become a couple this was like speaking ill of your mother in law in front of your husband. Hardly something good! You think that after the first time that Ron told that it was a bit harsh of her she would control it! But she didn't on the grounds that she *thinks* that he is right she carry on with her statements. A little less critism would have probably made Harry listen to her.

Gily Ann

edit:

Also on your point re: Hermione learning hard lessons, you bring up an interesting point and you are correct in that Hermione does believe in the rightness of her position on slavery. Whether lack of 'help' inconveniences wizards is beside the point, IMO. Let them be inconvenienced. If Hermione's issues were trite, you would perhaps assume selfishness or immaturity. However, the issue is central to our humanity, and Hermione has stood on her convictions in the face of apathy and conflict - not an easy thing to do. She is essentially said that this is an issue for which she would risk everything. She has aligned herself with equality and justice and a basic dignity and respect inherent in existence. The reality is that, in the end, you must live with yourself and pick those issues, those battles that you feel are most worthwhile and which you feel give your life and the lives of others meaning [ref Viktor Frankl et al…hey where's BabyMars ]. Hermione comes to this understanding naturally, meaning, she gets it on the big scale. She's just still learning how to perform the practical translation in her daily life, as are we all.

This is not about whether she is right or wrong. I have no doubt that he motives are good. Hell I agree with them! But the fact is that her tactics could land her in a world of trouble simply because she ISN'T FOLLLOWING certain rules. The fact is that Hermione has everything against her and nothing (NOT EVEN THE OWN HOUSE ELVES) to back her up. She needs support from the people that are near her in order to start changing people's opinion. She needs to listen to people like Ron who believe that Elf's like it but have that small doubt on the back of the brain. She needs to listen to the Elves she needs to know what they want, she needs to lower her expectations in order to start achieving house elf's rigths. But she doesn't do any of this she is so caught up in her 'tunel vision' of freeing the Elf's that she could end up in a HUGE amount of trouble and then in the end she doesn't help the elf's but she never achieved anything. Again I DON'T QUESTION her motives it's her tactics what need a change ASAP. In OoP look on how she set hats for the elf's to be set free and look what it end it up happening. The Elf's weren't cleaning and Dobby was trying hard to cover for her. This could very well have ended up in something huge that it could have been even worst if Dobby wouldn't have cover it. I shudder to think what would have happend if the Elf's would have been set out free there was no help on Howgarts and Umbridge would have been the headmistress.

Gily Ann

Ecthelion

July 31st, 2003, 11:33 am

What is Sirius' true motives w/ regards to Harry? Yes she did noticed Harry's connection w/ Sirius' but not Harry's "emotional connection" to Sirius. She only saw the danger and recklessness of the situation not Harry's worries & emotional feelings about Sirius. Why would she have to say that particular comment when the person involve is the person Harry loved the most. It was a very insensitive comment in a situation when what Harry needed the most is some sort of assurance & words of comfort

Yes, but she did see his emotional connection. And the result of her seeing this colliding with her obvious distaste and mistrust of the whole situation combined to show her as insensitive as you described. It's just Hermione's way of dealing with uncomfortable, clashing situations. Nothing against Harry. If anything, for Harry. The whole fiasco there was to make sure Harry wasn't going into a trap and possibly hurting himself. Hermione, knowing the scope of the situation far better than Harry, felt it inevitable that she had to get the point across. Wouldn't you? And as I've said here and the last post, her way of doing so is seemingly and apparently snappish and almost rude, but in truth, it is overwhelmingly passionate and caring. It's just her way.

EDIT:
Hermione hardly respected Harry's feelings for Sirius. She frequently spoke ill of Harry having no consideration of his feelings. If Harry and Hermione would be bound to become a couple this was like speaking ill of your mother in law in front of your husband. Hardly something good! You think that after the first time that Ron told that it was a bit harsh of her she would control it! But she didn't on the grounds that she *thinks* that he is right she carry on with her statements. A little less critism would have probably made Harry listen to her.

I think she did much better than she could have treated him if you ask me. Think of the way she treats Fred and George. Than look at the platinum version of them in a powerful form: Sirius. Except for a few goes at Kreacher, she hardly ever disiplined him and Hermione is not the type of girl who will back down if motivated...except for Harry.

Also, I really don't see where this discussion is going in regards to the pairing of anyone. Though it is a good debate, it has no significance whatsoever on the outcome. The fact remains that harry respects and admires Hermione, regardless of what she does to forewarn him. Almost nothing she does is going to affect that. I really don't think that their friendship will ever be torn apart.. No matter what they do to each other, no matter what way in which it is put to use, they are going to listen to each other, and out of their inextricable links, they aren't going to let each other go away. They've gone through too much to let that happen.

MagicianGirl

July 31st, 2003, 11:54 am

Yes, but she did see his emotional connection. And the result of her seeing this colliding with her obvious distaste and mistrust of the whole situation combined to show her as insensitive as you described. It's just Hermione's way of dealing with uncomfortable, clashing situations. Nothing against Harry. If anything, for Harry. The whole fiasco there was to make sure Harry wasn't going into a trap and possibly hurting himself. Hermione, knowing the scope of the situation far better than Harry, felt it inevitable that she had to get the point across. Wouldn't you? And as I've said here and the last post, her way of doing so is seemingly and apparently snappish and almost rude, but in truth, it is overwhelmingly passionate and caring. It's just her way.

I don't see anything overwhelmingly passionate & caring about someone snapping & rude.It was clear showing of insensitivity. The whole fiasco maybe about Harry avoid being hurt but what about the person that Harry loves being hurt? Yes, I would point out the consequences but not in that manner & I would also give consideration about Harry's emotion at the moment.

evaluna

July 31st, 2003, 12:05 pm

Original post by GilyAnn

This is not about whether she is right or wrong. I have no doubt that he motives are good. Hell I agree with them! But the fact is that her tactics could land her in a world of trouble simply because she ISN'T FOLLLOWING certain rules. The fact is that Hermione has everything against her and nothing (NOT EVEN THE OWN HOUSE ELVES) to back her up. She needs support from the people that are near her in order to start changing people's opinion. She needs to listen to people like Ron who believe that Elf's like it but have that small doubt on the back of the brain. She needs to listen to the Elves she needs to know what they want, she needs to lower her expectations in order to start achieving house elf's rigths. But she doesn't do any of this she is so caught up in her 'tunel vision' of freeing the Elf's that she could end up in a HUGE amount of trouble and then in the end she doesn't help the elf's but she never achieved anything. Again I DON'T QUESTION her motives it's her tactics what need a change ASAP. In OoP look on how she set hats for the elf's to be set free and look what it end it up happening. The Elf's weren't cleaning and Dobby was trying hard to cover for her. This could very well have ended up in something huge that it could have been even worst if Dobby wouldn't have cover it. I shudder to think what would have happend if the Elf's would have been set out free there was no help on Howgarts and Umbridge would have been the headmistress.

GilyAnn, it's certainly true that many things need to happen in order to end the slavery of the house elves, and certainly their oppressed worldview and limitations of experience must be taken into account with sensitivity. Nonetheless you are putting far more on Hermione's shoulders than is humanly fair. It is not her responsibility to raise the consciousness of everyone in the wizarding world -- it's up to each individual to do that for him- or herself. Nor can Hermione force the racism and prejudice from their hearts. Again, that is a responsibility that we all share. Hermione is doing everything she feels she must, from the position of her beliefs, to raise the issue and present another perspective, that perhaps it's not alright and that perhaps the wizarding world has chosen the easy way out on this issue rather than the right way. We can assume that as she matures and gains more experience of politics and bureaucracy, Hermione will find ever more strategic ways to implement her vision.
Cheers!

Ecthelion

July 31st, 2003, 12:09 pm

I don't see anything overwhelmingly passionate & caring about someone snapping & rude.It was clear showing of insensitivity. The whole fiasco maybe about Harry avoid being hurt but what about the person that Harry loves being hurt? Yes, I would point out the consequences but not in that manner & I would also give consideration about Harry's emotion at the moment.

I see what you mean. The singular events that happened in this whole scenario, were, admitingly, no passionate or caring. But the scenario as a whole was. Hermione should have handled it much more compassionate but I don't think we're getting the whole picture. This time in which she acted such was quite frenzied and mis-interpreted by many people on either side of the arguement. She did take consideration as to what he was suggestion and the apprehension he held for Sirius, because from the beginning she mistrusted so much and wanted to make sure for good, but she compensated by just checking grimmauld place.

Again, how do you see this pretaining to H/hr not happening?

FlyingPhoenix

July 31st, 2003, 12:10 pm

Oh well what have I done? I need to make points clear first if I say love than I mean all kind of love and yeah Hermione did love Harry in PS/SS already like Ron did love Harry.

Excuse me! With all do respect FlyingPhoenix this is going far and simply trying to discredit something that is on Cannon. Harry NEVER became friends with Hermione on the train. In fact just like Ron he couldn't stand her. H/Hr need to start disregarding the importance of Ron on the series. Like or not for us The Weasley's are important on the book and they are going to be important in the end. Jkr considers them the 'perfect or ideal family' and I highly doubt that after she created them for the selfish purpose of her own self pleasure she is planning to destroy them. Sure she may want to shake them up but over all they are important.
Sorry but you seems to misunderstand my post I'm more as just sure if my post did say that what you implied in it than my shipmates and nonshipper did all jump on me. I did never say that Harry became friends with Hermione on the train. I did not even write Hermione in the train not a single moment in my post. I ask myself did I read a different post of my. Maybe someone runs around with my name and post such stuff. All what I said is that Harry has never difficults to become friend with Ron directly as he saw him on the train. Like I said Mrs. Weasley dos say that Harry is like a son to her but sadly it will never be the same like with Harrys real mother. So indeed that include Mrs. Weasley is very important.

Just because Ron was an *easier* friend to make doesn't disregard the FACT that Ron is one of the most important persons in Harry's life.
I didn't say it but if you understand it like that than is it not my fault. I said his first friend in Harrys life well if that isn't important than I don't know. Ron is the very, nah not exactly Hagrid was first but that is different, first best friend which Harry has ever in his whole life. Do you really believe I don't know that this is important and that I don't know how special this make Ron for Harry? If you believe that than you has never understand my post.

Ok so Hermione was already in love with Harry in book 1.
Again Hermione do love Harry but not in a romantical way. Not like you might understand it. If I say emotions than I mean she shows in front of Harry more emotions in PS/SS as to any other person. That implied that he is for her very important. If that say she loves him. Yeah she do but different as you think.

Problem is that Harry has also the *bond* of Ron sacrificing himself for him. Ginny has also a *bond* with him. Harry has an awful lot of bonds. To say that Mrs. Weasley's won't reach Harry even when she says she loves him like a son is simply not true. Harry was deeply touch by Mrs. Weasley's words that he was good as a son. If Hermione was able to *reach* Harry with that *hug* jkr sure the hell is lousy writter then. Because over the next books Harry has done more disregarding, ignorance, annoyance and objections to Hermione than anyone else. He has not remembe that hug in 5 years and has not though about it twice just like the kiss.
All nice points but not a single off them has that what Hermione did in the first year. Nobody, if I say nobody than I indeed mean nobody, did tell Harry in his first year after ten year without any careing, without any kind of love that he is practiculary a great person and that he should be careful. Something what he hears the very first time in his whole life that is what every person want hear once in his life. In COS at the end Hermione ask if his aunt ot uncle aren't proud of him you know what he answer? That they are disapointment that Harry didn't die. Thats exactly why this little word "be careful!" means so much in his first year. Harry don't need to remember this hug and not this kiss because Hermione is just always around him. Mrs. Weasley did sort of reach Harry but she don't get that near of his heart as if this were the same like his own mother. Nobody of the Weasleys reach his parents and nobody can give him this feeling to be a part of there family. You need only look at OotP and the scene as it gos about Mr. Weasley. Sirius is that what Harrys heart could recorgnise as family and this he did lose in OotP. What I said is that Hermione did create a path into Harrys heart with this hug in PS/SS. This is IMO true because in another way I could not explain why Harry never did not understand Hermiones doing in all books. He never did stand ther and did not understand why she do things how she do it.

That simply isn't true. Dumbledore can reach Harry easily he knows when he is lying, he knows when something is upsetting Harry.
In a different way as that. In a way that she tells Harry the very thing he has in his mind. All this annoying stuff in OotP is that what Harry did already think about but Hermione dos speak it out.

Hermione hardly respected Harry's feelings for Sirius. She frequently spoke ill of Harry having no consideration of his feelings. If Harry and Hermione would be bound to become a couple this was like speaking ill of your mother in law in front of your husband. Hardly something good! You think that after the first time that Ron told that it was a bit harsh of her she would control it!
I promise to this topic I will come back in my next post. Because what Hermione said is not speaking ill about Sirius. Again Harry did the same thing with Sirius what he did with his parents he did make them perfect and all what Hermione say is that Sirius isn't perfect and by the way even Harry himself did think that before Hermione even said it.

Hawk 92

July 31st, 2003, 12:28 pm

Earendil

July 31st, 2003, 12:40 pm

Originally posted by MagicianGirl
I don't see anything overwhelmingly passionate & caring about someone snapping & rude.It was clear showing of insensitivity.

But it's all right when Ron and Hermione are snapping and rude and insensitive to each other?

I'm having a hard time remembering where Hermione was snapping or rude to Harry in any conversation regarding Sirius. Maybe she was insensitive, certainly, but she expressed her opinion on Sirius's motives as tactfully as she possibly could. Of course, Hermione is by nature not the most tactful human being, so I can see where this came of as being insensitive. She was, however, NEVER rude or snapping about Sirius. Yet it's insensitive and uncaring when Hermione says something to Harry that he doesn't agree with--even when it's the truth, and even when she clearly tries to spare his feelings.

Originally posted by GilyAnn
Sure you may to say that I'm bashing Hermione but I'm sorry to say it's not me. The one who wrote that is JKR and if anyone should answer why is Ron so close to Harry's heart is JKR not me. To disregard the importance of Ron in Harry's life is simply disregarding Cannon.

No one is trying to say that Ron is not important to Harry. We all know that Ron is Harry's best friend. Unfortunately, it's also a simple matter of disregarding canon when readers attempt to disregard Hermione's importance to Harry.

H/Hr shippers are not the only ones to have noticed that Ron was slowly slipping away from the action in OotP. There's an entire multi-page thread in the Book Five Discussion Area called "Where's Ron?" The fact is that, if the stage is being set for a major falling-out or pulling-away or whatever it is between Harry and Hermione in the future, JKR is not going about it in a favorable way. Instead of having Hermione drop out of the important scenes, she's putting Harry and Hermione together. Without Ron. Why build up the importance of Hermione in these scenes if she's going to have her back away in the next two books and play second fiddle to a less developed and less important character?

If Hermione was able to *reach* Harry with that *hug* jkr sure the hell is lousy writter then. Because over the next books Harry has done more disregarding, ignorance, annoyance and objections to Hermione than anyone else. He has not remembe that hug in 5 years and has not though about it twice just like the kiss.

It seems that a considerable part of Harry and Hermione's friendship is being disregarded. Harry does not spend every waking moment of his time with Hermione in ignoring, disregarding, and objecting to her. If he did, I would begin to wonder why they're best friends. Canon, in fact, tells us that he does listen to her sometimes; he does appreciate her intelligence; they can have fun together, and they do get along perfectly well.

The point that I think FP was trying to make, which also seems to have been disregarded, is the fact that Hermione is the first person to ever hug Harry (other than his parents, which he cannot consciously remember). This is not a literal indication of Harry having to reflect upon this in order to have feelings for her; this is a matter of why JKR chose to have Hermione be the first person to ever show physical affection for Harry in his conscious memory. I wouldn't expect him to remember and dwell on this hug from when they were eleven years old. The main idea is that the author gave this symbolic role to Hermione, rather than anyone else.
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And, of course, a huge :welcome: to all new posters, Harmonians and non-Harmonians alike. Stick around and enjoy the debates.

Awesome posts, everyone--lleyki, I was literally smiling when I read yours. You took the words right out of my mouth. :tu:

MagicianGirl

July 31st, 2003, 12:41 pm

To Etchelion & Hawk92:

Since both you're question is basically the same I'll answer it in general.

What u pointed out as a problem in R/Hr is parallel w/ H/Hr. In R/Hr it is Ron who was snapping mostly and rude to Hermione & in H/Hr it was Hermione who's insensitive to Harry's.As Hawk92 said R/Hr's arguments almost always ended up w/ hurt feelings & what can u say about the arguments between H/Hr? It also ends up w/ hurt feelings. They also argue as much as R/Hr

Earendil

July 31st, 2003, 12:46 pm

Originally posted by MagicianGirl
What u pointed out as a problem in R/Hr is parallel w/ H/Hr. In R/Hr it is Ron who was snapping mostly and rude to Hermione & in H/Hr it was Hermione who's insensitive to Harry's.As Hawk92 said R/Hr's arguments almost always ended up w/ hurt feelings & what can u say about the arguments between H/Hr? It also ends up w/ hurt feelings. They also argue as much as R/Hr

Yes, Ron and Hermione snap and are rude to each other. Again, I would ask where in canon is Hermione ever rude or snappish to Harry, unless it's over a petty thing like OWLs or homework? When they have their "big" fights, they treat each other nothing like the way Ron and Hermione behaved in the Yule Brawl.

As for the hurt feelings, Harry and Hermione never walk away from a fight in a huffy silence, throwing each other dirty looks or deliberately cold-shouldering the other. In fact, I'm at a loss as to where the idea comes from that Harry and Hermione argue as much as Ron and Hermione do. H/Hr argue over important things, and as such, they only have one or two major arguments that are just between the two of them. Other than that, in OotP it's just Harry screaming at everyone. The fact is that Harry may have cold-shouldered Hermione about three times in OotP because she pissed him off, but they never walked away from their biggest fight--before the DoM--with hurt feelings.

jeanie beanie

July 31st, 2003, 12:53 pm

When they have their "big" fights, they treat each other nothing like the way Ron and Hermione behaved in the Yule Brawl.

I think the fact that Hermione and Ron's fight was so much more explosive than fights between Hermione and Harry shows that there is more passion between Hermione and Ron.

As for the hurt feelings, Harry and Hermione never walk away from a fight in a huffy silence, throwing each other dirty looks or deliberately cold-shouldering the other....The fact is that Harry may have cold-shouldered Hermione about three times in OotP because she pissed him off, but they never walked away from their biggest fight--before the DoM--with hurt feelings.

Umm. I think this is a point in favor of Hermione and Ron. Again, the emotions between Hermione and Ron are more intense than those between Harry and Hermione. It is much easier for Ron and Hermione to hurt each other. Deepest hurts are inflicted by those you care the most about.

Buckbeak

July 31st, 2003, 12:57 pm

:rotfl: :elaugh: Hmmmm....Luna likes Harry more? Well let us see......the list is now:

Parvati Patil
Ginny Weasley
Moaning Myrtle
Hermione Granger
Cho Chang
Luna Lovegood
Fleur Delacour

All either more interested in Harry than Ron or just flat out like Harry. Maybe Harry has a few more "fans" than I thought. :lol:

EDIT: BTW, great posts everybody........ :tu:

Hey Sone you forgot Pansy Parkinson, it is IMHO that she fancies Harry, i know she's a Slythrin and its here job to make fun of anyone not Slythrin, but she kind of focuses on Harry like Draco focuses on Hermione, and well...there have been a few posts on that already. Can you imagine Harry and Pansy, :scared: Uhhh! its not even worth thinking about ((cringe!))

Anyway just what excactly is a pug-face supposed to look like? iv quite often wondered :evil:

Sirius83

July 31st, 2003, 12:59 pm

But since when does hurt equal romance? You sometimes hurt the one you love, but you never do so conciously. Ron walks away from their fights feeling triumphant. Hermione walks away in tears. This isn't romantic in the least bit. Harry and Hermione have their differences too, and they have their arguments. But they're important enough to each other to keep respect and to never try to intentionally hurt the other. That is the difference between the R/Hr and H/Hr conflict. And that is also the difference that shows which relationship is the one that has room to move deeper - H/Hr.

If R/Hr were to get together, they would clash so often i'd be surprised if it lasts more than a week to be quite honest. Flaring temper relationships aren't the ones that last. There has to be respect, and Ron and Hermione lack the kind of respect for each other Harry and Hermione do. Ron has moved a step forward and gotten to respect Hermione a bit more in OOTP, but Hermione seems to have moved 2 steps backward in the respect department towards Ron.

EricaM

July 31st, 2003, 1:02 pm

I think the fact that Hermione and Ron's fight was so much more explosive than fights between Hermione and Harry shows that there is more passion between them.

Harry moved into Hermione's personal space when he was arguing with her. He was shouting (based on all those CAPS) at the top of his lungs. He comments that he just wants to shake her.

This sounds pretty passionate/explosive to me.

Umm. I think this is a point in favor of Hermione and Ron. Again, the emotions between Hermione and Ron are more intense than those between Harry and Hermione. It is much easier for Ron and Hermione to hurt each other. Deepest hurts are inflicted by those you care the most about.

Hermione is shaking when she finds out about Harry being cleared.
A glare or a 'You don't mean that' from Harry affects Hermione acutely.
The voice inside his head, apparently, is Hermione's.
He pulls *her* out of harms way when the crystal spheres came crashing etc. Feelings between Harry and Hermione run deep, IMHO.

Erica

sone

July 31st, 2003, 1:14 pm

Yes, I did Buckbeak. I'm going to keep that list. It is certainly getting much longer.

jeanie beanie

July 31st, 2003, 1:16 pm

I didn't mean to equate hurt with romance. I was trying to say that the more you care for some one, the more you open yourself up to being hurt by them in return. Yes, loving another means refraining from intentionally inflicting hurt, but the possibility for being hurt is there. I think that Hermione was hurt more by Ron than by Harry because she cares more for Ron than she does Harry.

It's true that clashes with Harry do affect Hermione. Fights with friends are never pleasant. Throughout OotP Harry is pretty upset. He yells at everybody so I don't think the fact that he yells at Hermione is particularly revealing of any deeper feelings. What I find so important about Ron and Hermione's huge fight in GoF is that she loses control. Hermione strikes me as the kind of girl who likes to have everything on an even keel. I find it interesting that Ron is the one who can make her lose her cool.

Abstract

July 31st, 2003, 1:20 pm

I dont think anything will happen till book 7 as far as Harry goes. However, based on just the last chapter of OotP, I am inclined to say that this would be Luna. You say she's wierd and doesn't fit? Well, based on 'the feeling in his stomach' towards the end, and the awkward moment he had at christmas under the mistletoe with her, those were the initial setups. PLUS, if you look at Cho compared to Luna, Luna in one book has had more character build than Cho has had in 3. Cho is pretty much a background entity throughout her appearance in the books. She had rarely ever spoken and we know nothing about her. Luna on the other hand we already know some good things about her.

You may think that there is no link between Luna and Harry, but there are still two more books to form this. Luna having fought now, with the core group of characters has become a core character and I have this feeling you will see her more involved.

Ron and Hermione is a definate. Many think not because they argue and bicker alot. However, thier attraction is beyond a few disagreements and differing views they seem to have. It is the old saying, 'Opposites attract'...sometimes.

Neville and Ginny - This sort of kicked off at the ball, and Neville did come to her defense at the Ministry. This will continue to build up now.

Cho and... Who cares. Girl never had any character. I was half expecting her to be the betrayer of D.A.

Snape and... Wont happen. Seen many posts on this in the past and the theories. Snape is too wrapped up in being a imperfect perfectionist who is too attached to his magic. Based on how much we have seen of his character, romance is not going to be part of his character. It just wouldn't work for me (maybe Rowlings will surprise me).

Other Romances? Doesn't matter really. If there are, they will be background devices that the core characters will imitate in some way during the course of either upcoming book.

Buckbeak

July 31st, 2003, 1:22 pm

I think that Hermione was hurt more by Ron than by Harry because she cares more for Ron than she does Harry.

I have no reason to see how she cares more for Ron than Harry. Ron is not all that nice to Hermione, sure sometimes he is, but he has never proved that he deserves to be cared about more by here than Harry does.

Truth be told i think she likes them the same, she has known them the same amount of time, but if she likes one of them more than the other its definatly Harry.

Sirius83

July 31st, 2003, 1:29 pm

It's true that clashes with Harry do affect Hermione. Fights with friends are never pleasant. Throughout OotP Harry is pretty upset. He yells at everybody so I don't think the fact that he yells at Hermione is particularly revealing of any deeper feelings. What I find so important about Ron and Hermione's huge fight in GoF is that she loses control. Hermione strikes me as the kind of girl who likes to have everything on an even keel. I find it interesting that Ron is the one who can make her lose her cool.

I don't see anything that says Harry shows his feelings by shouting at people he holds feelings for. In fact, it's shown the opposite with Cho. Harry's an introvert while Ron wears his heart on his sleeve, they don't show their feelings in the same way. Our theories for Harry having feelings for Hermione lies in his subconcious.

Hermione has lost control at things she believes are silly. She doesn't lose control with Harry because she doesn't think his problems are silly. However, she has yelled at Trewlawney, the twins, Ron and even Molly at one point. I don't think she's holding feelings for any of those.

What i really need toc omment on though, is this:

I think that Hermione was hurt more by Ron than by Harry because she cares more for Ron than she does Harry.

This isn't supported by cannon at all. The girl has done just about everything she can for Harry, which included going to see him play Quidditch when he wasn't talking to her - despite the fact she doesn't really seem to care for the sport. On the other hand, when it was Ron's turn to play, she was quite quick to leave the game without question to go with Harry and Hagrid, and had no qualms about voicing her opinion on how silly Quidditch was - after Harry was off the team of course. She has cancelled a vacation with her parents who she barely ever gets to see to be with Harry. She has yet to show doing something like this for Ron. When she spends time with a boy who has confessed his feelings for her, she spends her time jabbering on about Harry, not Ron, to the extent that Krum becomes jelous(this jabbering is out of character for Hermione by the way). One of the big hurdles for R/Hr is that Hermione holds Harry closer to her than she does Ron and this is supported directly out of the book.

sone

July 31st, 2003, 2:07 pm

Not to mention Ron was slighty put out by Hermione's reaction to his making the Quidditch team.

MagicianGirl

July 31st, 2003, 2:08 pm

Yes, Ron and Hermione snap and are rude to each other. Again, I would ask where in canon is Hermione ever rude or snappish to Harry, unless it's over a petty thing like OWLs or homework? When they have their "big" fights, they treat each other nothing like the way Ron and Hermione behaved in the Yule Brawl.

As for the hurt feelings, Harry and Hermione never walk away from a fight in a huffy silence, throwing each other dirty looks or deliberately cold-shouldering the other. In fact, I'm at a loss as to where the idea comes from that Harry and Hermione argue as much as Ron and Hermione do. H/Hr argue over important things, and as such, they only have one or two major arguments that are just between the two of them. Other than that, in OotP it's just Harry screaming at everyone. The fact is that Harry may have cold-shouldered Hermione about three times in OotP because she pissed him off, but they never walked away from their biggest fight--before the DoM--with hurt feelings.

I never said that Hermione was rude as Ron. Clearly you can see the distinction that I made. She is insensitive to Harry's feelings.But they do argue a lot in Ootp. Okay I can't provide the pages since I don't have my book w/ me but as important as an arguments are it is still an argument. Occlumency lessons, conversation w/ Sirius, about what happened to Rookwood when Harry don't talk to her all day & saving Sirius. There was no hurt feelings evident but Harry becomes more secretive w/ his feelings to the point when he doesn't open up to her when he really needs to. I remember a passage (again, can't provide the page) when Harry doesn't wanna tell her what he'd seen in his vision b/c she would be telling off him again.

FlyingPhoenix

July 31st, 2003, 2:11 pm

OotP and a Hermione who just don't understand Harry!

That is exactly what some people do think about Hermione.
But the most important part is just put away why Hermione act how she act. Do she discredit Sirius because she don't like him? Dos she annoy Harry about his need to talk with Sirius because she has no idea how important Sirius is to him?
She did it because she know how important Sirius is to Harry. Thats the reason for her doing. From the beginning of OotP is Hermiones goal that Harry know that no matter what his best friends are stand behind him. (Its Ron goal, too) Hermione and Ron both did saw Sirius without Harry around its the first time that they with him without Harry around. That say they get a different view about Sirius. Harry's thinking about Sirius is very alike to his thinking about his parents. There just don't exist any bad or wrong sides of Sirius character. After Harry's hearing also two weeks after Harry is at the PHQ and after Sirius was visible not that happy about Harrys return to Hogwarts do Hermione say this things about Sirius. She did it because Harry did feel sorry that he left Sirius behind.
Hermione say what really is happening by Sirius. It isn't like she lie or that what she say is fantasie. Even Harry did ask himself if Sirius did like it more if Harry was expeled. Problem is that Harry don't want admint it that Sirius is like that though he tried to hid in front of Harry. Well how Hermione said Sirius was a very long time very alone. 12 years in azkaban, 12 years nonstop thinking about his best friend James and his wife Lily, 12 years thinking about Harry. Someone who he didn't even know. Its quiet right that Sirius did saw in Harry his best friend James, better he did find James in Harry. This don't say Sirius didn't know Harry is not James its says simply that he rather saw in Harry a copy of James.

What Hermione did or what she wanted to do was to give Harry a different view about Sirius and if you ask me if she didn't say this aloud I doubt Harry had take later Sirius statement that Harry is indeed more less like his father without harm in his relationship to Sirius. Maybe its because of this harsh words by Hermione that Harry get that Sirius was indeed very alone for a very long time (something what I did nearly forget and I think thats why JKR did let Hermione say it just because to remind the reader on this fact). This let understand myself this situation much better even Sirius did I understand better.

About the point that Harry wanted to speak with Sirius or write Sirius a letter and Hermione was both not for it. Why are people think Hermione didn't understand Harrys need? Its only that she was more concerned about the fact what if through this Sirius get caught and go back to Azkaban? What if Sirius get the dementor kiss because of that? What if he die because of that? Than Harry will never again speak to him, will lose this person in his life who was like a father. It wasn't Hermione didn't understand, it was because she did understand. But it was more important for her to know Sirius is at the PHQ without any possible to talk with Harry in some months as that he sit in azkaban and is never again able to talk with Harry.

Later as Harry and Hermione wheter Sirius is in Voldis hands or not there is the quote why I think she care for Sirius as she said she would everything in her power do to save Sirius. What she had were doubts if Sirius was even there but she was not careless because of Sirius. To be exactly she was through the whole book very much interest in Sirius savety now why should this suddenly change?
It did never change.