CoSForums Archive - Book SIX: Who will fall in love with whom? Part Two

Perdita

July 31st, 2003, 3:52 pm

Hi Jeanie Beanie,

Harry shouts at his friends. He knows that they'll stay by him even if he blows up at them. He treats Cho differently because he feels differently about her than he does for Ron and Hermione.

1. Most H/Hr shippers at this forum have never said that Harry shouting at Hermione is a sign of his affections for her.
2. Only R/Hr shippers have said that about Ron and Hermione.
3. I think you all have to remember that the fighting that you find so cute is not perceived as such by Ron and Hermione. They celebrate their victory when one of them is able to shut the other up. The other is left to feel angry or annoyed. That is not an indication of playfulness or romantic attraction between the two.
4. Show me passages in cannon where Ron and Hermione are disagreeing and both of them are enjoying it.

Two I'd like to make in response. First, Harry and Hermione left the game because Hagrid begged them to come with him and would not be put off to a later time. I don't think is a sign of bailing on Ron because she didn't care for him. Rather it's a case of another friend needing help. Second, I thought Hermione was commenting more on the Quidditch Cup and the division it creates betweent the Houses than on the game itself - echoing sentiments expressed by the Sorting Hat's song at the beginning of the year.

1. Hagrid did not “beg.” He urged, at the most. If Hermione cared about Ron so much, she would have insisted on staying to watch him play. If Rowling wanted to show us that Hermione cares about Ron more than her other friends (which I would expect to be the case if she were in love with Ron), then Rowling would have told the story differently. She would have had Hermione insist on staying behind.

2. Look at how they went to meet Grawp. Did Hermione have to be there? No. Harry could have gone by himself and told Hermione and Ron about it afterwards, just like how Hagrid suggested to Harry and Hermione. She did not have to go with Hagrid and Harry, but she did. She could have insisted to stay and watch Ron play, but she did not.

Umm, I could be wrong, but seem to remember that Hermione was going skiing despite Harry being on his own for Christmas until Mr. Weasley ended up at St. Mungo's. I know, I know, she shows up while Harry is hiding from other people, but she had to finish the term first and couldn't get to 12GP any sooner. I tend to think that her canceled skiing trip has more to do with Mr. Weasley than with Harry's feelings. Of course, that is just my opinion. :p

Everyone here is debating on their opinions, but for your arguments to stand up to dispute, you need a solid understanding of the text, as well as evidence to support your claims.

Examine the sequence of events:
-Mr. Weasley is attacked.
-He is taken to St. Mungos. Harry and Weasley siblings go there to visit him. They learn that he has recovered fine and is not in danger.
-Harry, Molly and Weasley siblings return to 12 Grimmauld Place.
-Harry sulks and hides away for a day.
-School term ends, and Hermione arrives on the first evening of that day.
-She goes straight to Harry in Buckbeak’s room. For the next two scenes in Buckbeak’s room and in Ron and Harry’s room, Hermione never made mention of Mr. Weasley.

Your opinion is that Hermione cancelled her trip to come and see Mr. Weasley instead of Harry. Cannon states otherwise, and that is not my opinion.

As much as I love this debate, :elaugh: I have to bail for a never ending meeting. :rasp:

Sorry you have to leave. Hope to see you around here again.

Fairydust

July 31st, 2003, 3:59 pm

4. Show me passages in cannon where Ron and Hermione are disagreeing and both of them are enjoying it (i didn't know how to use the quote button)

Ron and Hermione were bantering about who disarmed who the most. It was playful enough and they seemed to enjoy it.

Daveydee

July 31st, 2003, 3:59 pm

Everyone here is debating on their opinions, but for your arguments to stand up to dispute, you need a solid understanding of the text, as well as evidence to support your claims.

In addition to a dose of common sense, and a basic understanding of human behaviour.

Grace Granger

July 31st, 2003, 4:03 pm

In addition to a dose of common sense, and a basic understanding of human behaviour.

Are you insinuating that Perdita doesn't have common sense?

Daveydee

July 31st, 2003, 4:06 pm

Are you insinuating that Perdita doesn't have common sense?
:no: Really, Grace - is that my style?

AvadaKedavra

July 31st, 2003, 4:10 pm

Righty ho!

This thread has certainly run away, in my absence.

Time to address a few things.

Ron's Importance to Harry

Forgive me for saying so, but I think Ron in so many levels is a better "friend" to Harry than Hermione. I am not going down the "hermione is bad for harry" road but by the shape the posts have been going recently, this is something that needs to be challenged. :p

Ron is a friend. Friends give each other respect, and part of that respect is respecting a friend's decision even if you know it is wrong. Part of respecting friends is supporting them, even if it means doing something wrong.

Hermione, all credit where it's due, cares for Harry a lot. But, the thing is, she cares for Harry in a different level to Ron's care, and also Ginny's care. The difference is the way in which Hermione expresses her care.

Ron and Ginny will express their care by helping Harry doing what HE wants, even if it is potentially WRONG, or will bring no good.

Hermione expresses her care by attempting to make Harry do what is right, to follow the rules and to do what is good for him in the long run.

There is nothing against this.

Ron's care is more typical to a friend's care, by tending to what Harry WANTS.

Hermione's care is more typical to a mother/guardian's care, by tending to what is the best thing for Harry in the long run, tending to his moral shaping. I am not saying that Hermione is a mother figure. I am saying that there are noted differences in the way Ron and Hermione care for Harry, without any bashing intended.

Now, that's out of the way. What type of care do you think Harry appreciates more? Ron's care or Hermione's care?

There are MANY instances in the books, OOTP especially, where he tires of Hermione's "care", especially with Sirius and Occlumency. Even though in the long run Hermione is usually right, Harry doesn't appreciate it the manner of which Hermione "forces" her care upon Harry.

I don't think in the future Harry will start listening to Hermione. It is in his nature to be Harry, to break rules, or to do something he really wants, he will do it. Hermione needs to realise this, and change the way that she sets about caring for Harry- not the actual care itself (which is ok).

The more she tries to "force" that care, the more Harry will defy it.

Ron, on the other hand, is easy going. He identifies Harry's needs/wants and doesn't obstruct him. Whilst this may not be good in the long run, Harry appreciates this more. There are instances, i.e. when Harry is down, Ron knows exactly how to cheer him up- i.e. a game of quidditch.

This level of connection that Harry and Ron have, Hermione fails at. Perhaps H/Hr have a better intellucal connection. But this doesn't mean Harry appreciates it more than his connection with Ron.

Now, moving on. Harry misses Ron most- as we know from the second task. You could argue that they had to choose someone else because Hermione was already chosen. But I don't think so. I also did a thread on "whose death would affect Harry most, Ron's or Hermione's" and the overhwelming majority of people chose Ron.

You could argue this by using the "reactions" given in OOTP when R/Hr were in mortal peril. However, I think this is irrelevant. Remember, Harry knew Ron was downstairs. So we were prevented from seeing his reaction if he really knew/thought that Ron could be dead, like the later reaction given when he thought Hermione was dead. But in that "few seconds" when he thought Ron was really dead, the reaction was pretty severe and probably would have worsened if he had continued to think Ron was dead.

The point is, I think Harry considers Ron a better friend, marginally. For example, Ron is 100% and Hermione is 98%. Not much difference. Now, I think JKR "pulled" Ron away from the action a little bit in OOTP, in order to "mature" him and to "expand" him- to give him more of the success he deeply wanted. But now that Harry really needs Ron, Ron will be by his side, his best knight.

( I say this out of total honesty and not shipping bias, if I was to swear this in court, I would swear by what I have said, as my honest opinion. Harry considers Ron as his better friend, marginally.)

Now I've established that. Let's move on and keep what I've established in mind.

.............................................

I think Harry knows of Ron's feelings for Hermione. Let's assume that Hermione makes a move on Harry, and Harry knows Ron still likes Hermione. Will Harry brush aside HIS BEST FRIEND IN THE WHOLE WORLD'S feelings aside and go ahead anyway?

Be honest, when you answer my question.

...................................................

Second thing to address.

Hermione's role in R/Hr arguments

Some, not all, people are picturing the R/Hr arguments as a Ron bad, Hermione upset, Hermione walk away scencario. In fact, apart from the Yule Brawl and any Krum related scencario, which are specifically put in by JKR to show us Ron's hormonal ragings anyway, Hermione is as bad as Ron. In some ways, worse.

Hermione shows extraordinary insensitivity in POA when she deals with the rather sensitive issue of Ron's uncle's death, and is contextually "wrong" with the whole pet thing (even Harry admitted it). There are instances where they are as bad as each other.

Now, you will be firing back with rebuttals and saying, "Exactly! They're clearly bad for each other! Man, they need better!". But I have to reiterate, when Hermione is as bad as Ron in the arguments, it shows that there is an equal amount of input between the pair when they argue. This may have some inconsistencies here and there, but I'm talking on general terms here.

Now, we know that Ron likes Hermione (could be subconsciously, could be semi-consciously, could be consciously). And Hermione puts in as much input to the argument as Ron (who likes her) does. Now, I'm not implying anything, I'm *in my opinion* laying the facts on the table and allowing people to draw the conclusions from them.

Note. Hermione is clearly mentally superior to Ron. So why does she play along with the game and argue along? She could easily ignore him and walk away straight away every time an argument is provoked, either by herself or Ron. It is only by the end of a "session of arguing" that the pair ignore each other. Why then? Why not before then?

If you're going to claim the ho-ho in a bored voice about the Krum thing, I say- that "line of argument" by Ron has been criminally overused, and Hermione eventually gives back a flat response. But as to other things, she is willing to give as good as she gets, even when she knows she is mentally superior and doesn't need to play along.

Another note.

We see Ron "like" Fleur. Hermione displays animosity to Fleur. This could be explained away by- Harry too! But, we see Luna "like" Ron. Hermione does display some animosity to Luna. This might be because Luna is the opposite of Hermione, or it might not be.

The fact remains, there have been two girls who could have been romantically involved with Ronald Weasley, and Hermione Granger has displayed animosity to both of them, with an undefinable reason.

When I say undefinable, I mean- interpretable to both causes. Think I'll leave it at there.

Hawk Did you not see my "grovelling" post, in response to your :clap:? I think it would be a rather waste if you missed it, because it's a quite rare occassion. :p

Signing out,

Avada

Watch out for my (well, it was inspired by Davydee) Five Stage theory soon.

treehugs_are_best

July 31st, 2003, 4:13 pm

u all need to calm down, it's a book!
they ar not real characters!

CALM THE **** DOWN!

Mad-I Moody

July 31st, 2003, 4:14 pm

As I don't have the book in front of me, nor text to support me, I just have to say (a)go Ron and Hermione! and (b) I thought Hermione might've stayed at the Quidditch match, but it was painful for her to watch Ron do so badly -- since she cares for him. Also, she didn't want to hear any more of the Slytherin's taunting. Besides, Hagrid did --er--coax Harry and Hermione to come with him. They have been wondering what has been going on with him for half the year, do you really think Hermione would pass up the chance to find out, even if she was watching the love of her life play Quidditch? I don't.

OK, and about Christmas. I thought that Hermione planned to go skiing, even after she knew Harry and Ron would be spending Christmas together. After the attack on Mr. Weasley, Hermione presumably changed her plans and had to wait for the end of term before she could get to 12GP. If she just wanted to be with Harry over the holidays, why wouldn't she cancel her plans BEFORE Mr. Weasley is attacked, either when she thinks that Harry is going to be by himself over the holiday or when she finds that he is going to the Burrow?

Finally, I think that people who care for each other but sometimes don't have a way to communicate it often get frustrated with the other person and it results in arguments. Not enjoyable, flirtatious arguments, but real ones. For instance:
A girl (Jane) really likes a guy(Billy), and she keeps dropping hints for him to ask her to an event, like prom or something. He is too thick to realize what she is doing, and ends up going to the prom with someone else. Then, when Jane shows up to the prom with another guy, looking really pretty, Billy gets jealous and starts acting like a jerk to the girl he came with. After the prom, Billy asks Jane why she went to the prom with that other dopey guy, and Jane ends up getting really P.O.ed with Billy because, well, he's just so dumb -- why can't he understand that she likes him?!?!??!
And the gloves come off....

Edit: Also, I think a HUGE indication of Hermione's feelings for Ron is when she says something about how Harry should tell Cho that Harry doesn't think hermione is pretty. Harry says that he does think she's pretty. she smiles, and says something cryptic like "Oh, you're as bad as Ron." then pauses, sees Ron and says "No, no you're not." (Not direct quotes--I don't have the book with me).
So here is my 2 cents about that.
1. Why is Hermione offering Harry all of this advice about his relationship with Cho if she has feelings for him? Don't you think she'd be talking about what a loser Cho is and how Harry could do so much better than her? Even if she didn't do that, I can't see her ENCOURAGING the relationship if she didn't like it.
2. Hermione's cryptic comment indicates, to me, that same frustration mentioned in the original body of my post. She's frustrated with Ron's inability to see her as someone other than a "pal" -- he's difficult to deal with because, since hermione is so much smarter, she can see their relationship for what it is and what it should be. Ron, well, he's a little slow on the uptake.

treehugs_are_best

July 31st, 2003, 4:14 pm

ron / hermione will never happen u hear me!

bow down to ME!!!!!

Perdita

July 31st, 2003, 4:16 pm

I disagree. I dont think she cares less for one over the other. However, you must realize that the books are about...Harry Potter. Almost every chapter, in every book shows us from a 3rd Person persective what Harry is doing. Thus, everyone that cares for Harry, everything that happens or is written about in the books appears to be amplified around Harry. So yes, it may appear that she 'cares more' for Harry.

Unless I have misunderstood you, narrative focalization is a technique employed by the author to present what she wants the reader to see. It is flexible and does leave room for manipulation.

If Rowling wanted to show Hermione as being much more caring towards Ron than any other character in the novels, she could have. She could have taken the narrative focalization away from Harry and place it on Hermione to show Hermione’s feelings for Ron. That would solidly confirm that Hermione does in fact return Ron’s feelings of romantic affection. However, look at GOF and OOTP. Hermione has not been shown to act this way.

There were plenty of opportunities for Rowling to do so. The reunion at Grimmauld Place at the beginning, the exchange of Christmas presents, the Quidditch game where Ron helped win the House Cup; these are 3 opportunities that were passed up by Rowling. Why is that? The only logical explanation seems to be that Rowling is trying to show us that Hermione does not feel the same way about Ron.

Then there is a comedical point of view of why her and Ron argue and disagree so much. There is a formula at work here that Harry and Hermione do not share. Hermione simply respects Harry as a friend, because...Harry is seemingly more responsible than Ron is. A Harry/Hermione relationship is too obvious, and well.. too bland. Mrs. Rowlings is a little better than that to make things so blatantly obvious.

1. You claim that Hermione and Ron’s arguing is a “formula” that is not used to depict Harry and Hermione’s relationship.
2. Then you go on to say that Rowling would not use such a blatantly obvious pairing as H/Hr and would choose, instead, to go a more subtle route.

That sounds to me like a contradiction. Formulas are obvious because they have been used repeatedly in many works of literature. That is what has made them formulaic. How can that subtle? And if it is not subtle, then your entire “H/Hr are too obvious” argument does not hold together at all. It is simply a contradiction that is manipulated to serve a personal preference.

I used to believe this too that H & H would be together. But that changed since GoF at the ball. It was BECAUSE the way Ron reacted to Hermione and seemed to be harsh that he also began to realize just how much he liked her. The little formula's that human's work by are sometimes much stranger than you think. Often one person will seem to tease and argue with someone because THEY DO like them, but do not know how to express it directly...so they find another way to do it, often expressing the opposite of what they feel or think. You must remember, these are teens discovering things...they dont really know what these things exactly are.

1. Ron likes Hermione does not automatically imply that Hermione feels the same way about him.
2. Again, the formula argument that is self-contradictory.
3. Remember, what you perceive as arguing for attention based on romantic attraction has been contradicted by the text.
4. Not all teenagers behave the same way.
5. Again, please supply evidence where Hermione exhibits the following sentiments: “Often one person will seem to tease and argue with someone because THEY DO like them, but do not know how to express it directly...so they find another way to do it, often expressing the opposite of what they feel or think. You must remember, these are teens discovering things...they dont really know what these things exactly are.”

Abstract

July 31st, 2003, 4:17 pm

1. Most H/Hr shippers at this forum have never said that Harry shouting at Hermione is a sign of his affections for her.

Harry at the time of yelling at Hermione was out of pure frustration of no one communicating at him. He would have yelled at a cat at that point for not giving him any answers.

2. Only R/Hr shippers have said that about Ron and Hermione.

Ron and Hermione argue with each other because they do not see eye to eye on issues. Hell, me and my GF argue about things that we dont see eye to eye on. Yet, R&Hr are friends before anything. Friends argue, couples argue, strangers even argue. It's the personality of each that creates these 'friendly' arguements. There is never any venom behind R/Hr's arguments.

3. I think you all have to remember that the fighting that you find so cute is not perceived as such by Ron and Hermione. They celebrate their victory when one of them is able to shut the other up. The other is left to feel angry or annoyed. That is not an indication of playfulness or romantic attraction between the two.

Because of thier personalities yes. But this does not negate chemical attration and human nature. Rivalry between people who like each other, even love each other is not all that uncommon. And yes, often there IS a playfulness to some of thier arguments. Other times it is mainly Hermione's By-the-bookedness conflicting with the Fred-and-Georgedness that Ron carry's with him. Rules vs Rebellion. Still, neither one will hate each other, and attraction will still overcome these squabbles.

4. Show me passages in cannon where Ron and Hermione are disagreeing and both of them are enjoying it.

Human nature is not often is any one or two groups of words, but a combination and culmination of all things acted out and said.

1. Hagrid did not “beg.” He urged, at the most. If Hermione cared about Ron so much, she would have insisted on staying to watch him play. If Rowling wanted to show us that Hermione cares about Ron more than her other friends (which I would expect to be the case if she were in love with Ron), then Rowling would have told the story differently. She would have had Hermione insist on staying behind.

Both Harry and Hermione wanted to stay and watch. This wasn't a points scoring session, it was a fact that Hagrid had to show someone what he's been up to. It was plot advancement. I think you are reading too much into the event that happened here.

2. Look at how they went to meet Grawp. Did Hermione have to be there? No. Harry could have gone by himself and told Hermione and Ron about it afterwards, just like how Hagrid suggested to Harry and Hermione. She did not have to go with Hagrid and Harry, but she did. She could have insisted to stay and watch Ron play, but she did not.

I bet if Ron wasn't playing Quittich, he would have been there as well. I think again you are reading too much into the character's motives in this event. Simply, I think Hermione was just as curious to see what Hagrid has been up to...and Hermione is a knowledge junkie like that. Going with Harry, leaving the game because Ron was playing had little to do with her motivations here.

Everyone here is debating on their opinions, but for your arguments to stand up to dispute, you need a solid understanding of the text, as well as evidence to support your claims.

Examine the sequence of events:
-Mr. Weasley is attacked.
-He is taken to St. Mungos. Harry and Weasley siblings go there to visit him. They learn that he has recovered fine and is not in danger.
-Harry, Molly and Weasley siblings return to 12 Grimmauld Place.
-Harry sulks and hides away for a day.
-School term ends, and Hermione arrives on the first evening of that day.
-She goes straight to Harry in Buckbeak’s room. For the next two scenes in Buckbeak’s room and in Ron and Harry’s room, Hermione never made mention of Mr. Weasley.

This is because we mainly see all events that take place in the stories, from Harry (in 3rd person). I think you again, read to much into her motivations. Harry is a good friend. He was hurt once again by something beyond his control. Had Ron seen the vision of the snake and he was the one that was hurt, she would have gone to see him.

Also, while Mr. Weasley was attacked, Harry being the protagonists of our favored books was hurt once again by the strange powers that rule his world.

treehugs_are_best

July 31st, 2003, 4:17 pm

quidditch rocks!

ur an arsebandit if u think ginger minger is gunna get with herpies hermione! mwahahaaa!

acctually they belong together
they're both munters!

mind u so is harry

not draco...

treehugs_are_best

July 31st, 2003, 4:18 pm

stop writing pointless long replies! no-ine ever reads them!

Daveydee

July 31st, 2003, 4:20 pm

Let's assume that Hermione makes a move on Harry, and Harry knows Ron still likes Hermione. Will Harry brush aside HIS BEST FRIEND IN THE WHOLE WORLD'S feelings aside and go ahead anyway?

Be honest, when you answer my question.

Well done AK. Can I just come in on your coat tails there and ask those H/Hr folks who choose to answer the question you posed to also consider this supplementary question:

If you were Harry - would you?

EDIT:

Nobody grace the person above with a reply. She's already been reported for other posts.

treehugs_are_best

July 31st, 2003, 4:21 pm

neither of them will end up with the gurl...

...they'r gay and will end up together...

Abstract

July 31st, 2003, 4:26 pm

Unless I have misunderstood you, narrative focalization is a technique employed by the author to present what she wants the reader to see. It is flexible and does leave room for manipulation.

Exactly. She wants us to see what happens around Harry. How are we to know what else happens in the world, unless it is told or shown around Harry. We know nothing abour Ron and Hermione EXCEPT when they are around Harry or someone else talks about them.

Also, nothing really supports the fact that Hermione has more affection for Harry. Again, because of the focus mainly on Harry.

You cannot really prove it either way based on these types of arguments. It'd be like trying to prove:

"This flower is pretty."

treehugs_are_best

July 31st, 2003, 4:38 pm

none of them will end up together, one of the three will die...

Buckbeak

July 31st, 2003, 4:50 pm

Ron's Importance to Harry

Forgive me for saying so, but I think Ron in so many levels is a better "friend" to Harry than Hermione. I am not going down the "hermione is bad for harry" road but by the shape the posts have been going recently, this is something that needs to be challenged. :p

I think Ron is a better friend to Harry in the past books, i totaly agree there.
but Harry was basically a 'kid' in the earlier books, and i have to say this although alot of you will probably disagree, but it is extremely unusual for a young girl and a boy to be best friends, its not unheard of of course but, at the age of around 11 to say 14 most children prefer to be best friends with those of the same sex, its all in the human nature and im really not going to get into Freud cause im no expert on it, but he always used to say that in the early stages of adolesence, boys would stick with boys and girls will stick with girls. Boys more so, it is highly unlikely, although again i don't presume to think that i know everything, but i don't think you'll get an 12 year old boy hanging around with a bunch of girls, it just doesn't happen (very rare anyway)
Now what we have with Harry, Ron and Hermione is this small unique little group, where they all see each other as equals, but sub-contiously the two boys are the bestest of friends, because their more similer to eachother, its the way society has bought them up. i do not believe for a second that the three of them had feelings of love between them (and i mean then), well not in the relationship type way anyway. its only now when their entering those tough years where everything changes.
Now you say Ron has always been a better friend to Harry, which i don't doubt for a minute but Harry's growing up and he will start to look at things differently, its not all about being similer now.

Anyway i just had to say this, i could comment on the rest of what you've wrote but im sure a H/Hr'er will do that.

p.s sorry if its hard to understand, iv always had trouble explaining things.

p.p.s

oh and on to your question

I think Harry knows of Ron's feelings for Hermione. Let's assume that Hermione makes a move on Harry, and Harry knows Ron still likes Hermione. Will Harry brush aside HIS BEST FRIEND IN THE WHOLE WORLD'S feelings aside and go ahead anyway?

Be honest, when you answer my question.

this is the main reason why i think H/Hr will not get together, because i don't think Harry would do that to Ron and as iv said before it is forbidden in any friendship to go out with your bestfriends crush.
thanks

Perdita

July 31st, 2003, 4:52 pm

Hi Mad-I Moody,

As I don't have the book in front of me, nor text to support me, I just have to say (a)go Ron and Hermione! and (b) I thought Hermione might've stayed at the Quidditch match, but it was painful for her to watch Ron do so badly -- since she cares for him. Also, she didn't want to hear any more of the Slytherin's taunting.

Since you don’t have the books with you, does another R/Hr shipper who agrees with this statement have the appropriate textual evidence to support this claim?

In the past, Harry has been in horrible situations during Quidditch games and other similar activities (POA & GOF), sometimes even near death. Not only has Hermione been presented as one who is brave enough to face whatever obstacle is placed in front of Harry, she is also portrayed repeatedly in the books as one who stands up to ridicule instead of backing down from it (Malfoy).

Now, I ask, how does that statement that she finds it too painful to watch Ron do badly and wants to avoid the Slytherin ridicule stand? This claim is contrary to the character that Rowling has shown us through 5 books.

Besides, Hagrid did --er--coax Harry and Hermione to come with him. They have been wondering what has been going on with him for half the year, do you really think Hermione would pass up the chance to find out, even if she was watching the love of her life play Quidditch? I don't.

What you or I expect Hermione to do is debatable. However, if you look at the text, Hagrid pleads with Harry and Hermione. He did not coax. Also, it was Harry who objected and asked if it could wait. One would expect, that if Hermione loves Ron, she would at least appear sad at having to leave. Does she, though? Nope. Harry says “let’s go” and off they go.

OK, and about Christmas. I thought that Hermione planned to go skiing, even after she knew Harry and Ron would be spending Christmas together. After the attack on Mr. Weasley, Hermione presumably changed her plans and had to wait for the end of term before she could get to 12GP. If she just wanted to be with Harry over the holidays, why wouldn't she cancel her plans BEFORE Mr. Weasley is attacked, either when she thinks that Harry is going to be by himself over the holiday or when she finds that he is going to the Burrow?

Before Mr. Weasley was attacked, Harry did not suspect himself to be possessed by Voldemort and to have powers at such times to cause fatal injury to others. After the attack is a different story. Harry is brooding and sulking and avoiding some of the closest people to his heart (best friend like-a-brother Ron, mother figure Molly and father figure Black). He was so depressed he was considering running away.

That’s why it makes sense that Dumbledore sent for Hermione to come and help Harry get out of his depression.

Finally, I think that people who care for each other but sometimes don't have a way to communicate it often get frustrated with the other person and it results in arguments. Not enjoyable, flirtatious arguments, but real ones. For instance:
A girl (Jane) really likes a guy(Billy), and she keeps dropping hints for him to ask her to an event, like prom or something. He is too thick to realize what she is doing, and ends up going to the prom with someone else. Then, when Jane shows up to the prom with another guy, looking really pretty, Billy gets jealous and starts acting like a jerk to the girl he came with. After the prom, Billy asks Jane why she went to the prom with that other dopey guy, and Jane ends up getting really P.O.ed with Billy because, well, he's just so dumb -- why can't he understand that she likes him?!?!??!
And the gloves come off....

Good theory, very thorough and very realistic. Unfortunately, that is not what is portrayed in GOF. Hermione found Krum as her date for quite some time before Ron started asking her about it. She also never gave hints to him to ask her to the ball.

Edit: Also, I think a HUGE indication of Hermione's feelings for Ron is when she says something about how Harry should tell Cho that Harry doesn't think hermione is pretty. Harry says that he does think she's pretty. she smiles, and says something cryptic like "Oh, you're as bad as Ron." then pauses, sees Ron and says "No, no you're not." (Not direct quotes--I don't have the book with me).

Cryptic? Definitely. However, it can be argued from so many angles including non-shippy ones that this above claim can only work weakly on inference.

So here is my 2 cents about that.
1. Why is Hermione offering Harry all of this advice about his relationship with Cho if she has feelings for him? Don't you think she'd be talking about what a loser Cho is and how Harry could do so much better than her? Even if she didn't do that, I can't see her ENCOURAGING the relationship if she didn't like it.
2. Hermione's cryptic comment indicates, to me, that same frustration mentioned in the original body of my post. She's frustrated with Ron's inability to see her as someone other than a "pal" -- he's difficult to deal with because, since hermione is so much smarter, she can see their relationship for what it is and what it should be. Ron, well, he's a little slow on the uptake.

Answers:
1. Hermione cares about Harry and wants him to be happy, even if that means helping him a bit with the girl he likes. Also, her ugly comment was very likely her way of testing to see what Harry thinks of her looks. After the kiss discussion, Hermione doesn’t offer anymore advice on how Harry should proceed with asking Cho out on a date. Instead, she seems to attempt sabotage using a perfectly noble reason when she invited Harry to join her at the Three Broomsticks after his date with Cho. Note, eventhough I used the word sabotage, that is only in reference to the effect. She never forced Harry into anything, nor did she trap him into meeting her. She gave Harry the freedom to choose and he chose to meet up with her.

2. Again, her comments are so cryptic and can be interpreted in so many ways. This one has been discussed at length and when I have time, I’ll dig out my interpretation of it to show you what I mean.

AvadaKedavra

July 31st, 2003, 4:56 pm

I must say this.

A MASSIVE WELCOME aboard the HMS Heron (R/Hr ship here at CoSForums) to Abstract. Your posts are refreshing and really insightful. Please stick around, we could do with a different perspective.

Davydee

Don't worry, I'm not going to grace that person, it's really not worth it.

evaluna

July 31st, 2003, 4:59 pm

:clap: Perdita, GREAT posts! Same to all my fellow shippers and travellers!

Thoughts on Luna, Lupin, the Moon, and the DoM Arch or Gateway of Souls: How Pertaining to Harry?

Thoughts on Luna, Lupin and the Moon

I'm not sure when either Luna or Lupin was born, but their names are related to the Moon, with 'Luna' actually being Latin for 'moon'. Lupin's character signifies a tie with the moon, and his name [first and last] also doubly signifies a tie with wolves [the werewolf, a magical creature whose cycles ebb and flow with the moon's, and the she-wolf who suckled Romulus and Remus, sons of Mars and mythical founders of Rome]. For Lupin, the moon in full has negative implications and brings out the negative aspects of Mars [violence, destruction, signified by the werewolf] in his character, but the implication is that Lupin has clearly gained or has increased in mystical insight, wisdom, tolerance and compassion from his suffering. Obviously, the Moon is centrally linked to both characters, so what is the significance of the Moon, esoterically, and thus how are these figures [Luna, Lupin] significant for Harry?

[i]The Moon in Esoteric Lore[/i]

The Moon represents the Soul of the kabbalistic Grand Man, the unconscious, the Universal Mother [Isis to the Egyptians], and the initiation of Soul into the mysteries of life at birth and the Spirit at the end of earthly existence [veil of Isis or Gateway of Souls]. On the esoteric plane, Cancer [Moon] symbolises tenacity for life, hence the desire for immortality which leads the Immortal Soul to the end of its earthly pilgrimage and material incarnations. Having passed from the lower arc of matter, the Soul enters once more upon the spiritual path of eternal conscious life [BTW all this is paraphrased from various Kabbalistic/Gnostic sources].

[i]Influence of Luna, Lupin, and the Moon on Harry[/i]

The influence of the moon is reflective, amplifying the effects of those bodies [celestial] aspecting her. The connection with the Gateway of Souls reflects for Luna and Lupin an instinctive knowledge of these esoteric mysteries, a knowledge that may be key to Harry's healing and growth in this regard. Also it symbolises that these two are key in helping Harry cross the spiritual and emotional threshold of adulthood, i.e., helping Harry discover himself. Specifically, I see them facilitating Harry in his discovery of his inner life and in giving Harry the courage to reveal his heart - both to conquer his deepest fears and to own his deepest love [for Hermione]. Without recognition of the love in his heart, without passing the spiritual threshhold from childhood to maturity [through bonding with another per Turambar], without opening himself to the heights of love as well as the depths of despair, Harry cannot overcome Voldy [fear and hatred]. Only through finding and trusting in love himself can Harry give love to the world.

Luna amplifies Harry's natural compassion in one of the final scenes in OoP, and this is symbolic of what she might represent to Harry: an intuitive, non-logical source of emotional and spiritual knowledge or understanding, in order that Harry may access or understand his emotions more deeply or more clearly. Also, she can provide affirmation for Harry's life experiences to date with the mysteries of life and death [DoM] Specifically, Luna may also have knowledge of Harry's mother, Lily [?] and Lily's work through her own mother. Lupin, wise and tolerant, may serve similar functions, but more with the moral authority of a father figure of sorts; he, too, may have redeeming or healing knowledge regarding Harry's parents - specifically of James but...perhaps Lily is implied, as well.

The Sun [Harry's ruling planet] represents the central spiritual source of All [be it God, the force, or what have you], spiritually and materially, and is the Divine Self of the Grand Man. The sun represents the positive creative and active forces of the Cosmos. It is the 'grand conservatory' of Life, Light, and Love. Those dominated by the influence of this planet are said to be the natural-born leaders of humankind, embodying principle, high-mindedness, conscientiousness, pride, generosity, and nobility of spirit. Traditionally, the span of life was thought to be greatly affected by the favourable positions or influence, of both the Sun and the Moon.

Symbolically, Harry is well-characterised in many ways by his ruling planet [Sun], and yet his seemingly ill-favoured "chart" at birth [or, at the death of his parents just over 1 year later] can be seen to be countered symbolically by the positive influence of the Moon [Luna and Lupin] in his life. This does not address Harry's need to partner with someone for life, nor his need to find true love and completion through unity with another. IMO no one excepting Hermione could fulfill this role for Harry. However, Lupin and Luna can provide spiritual support on a different level or in different areas than Hermione. Hermione is Harry's foundation and his insight. It is through Hermione's love and support that Harry will be able to utilise and learn from the knowledge, both direct and intuitive, of himself and his background that Luna and Lupin provide.

[i]P.S.: More on Lupin: THEORY only follows...[/i]

Remus Lupin, Lupin's name, is clearly significant but also strange. Remus [the] Wolf. Lupin's name has ties both to the 1) Moon [werewolf] and 2) the Wolf and Mars/War [see below]. The Moon aspect has been addressed above.

[i]Significant:[/i] Remus and Romulus in mythology are half-human sons of Mars, god of War. They were suckled by the she-wolf and adopted by a human couple. The wolf, interestingly, is sacred to Mars, and thus these two were favoured by this god, their father.

[i]Strange: [/i] Remus of yore was killed by his brother Romulus when the decision of who would found Rome was left to the council on Olympus because the brothers could not decide - and came down against him,i.e., Remus was slated for death by the gods' decree, by fate as it were. Yet Remus Lupin has no brothers that we know of [?] and clearly is alive. Per his namesake, Remus Lupin should have died upon reaching manhood, yet that's long since passed. Other than a resident font of wisdom, tolerance, and noble suffering [who -- unlike Sirius -- actively and seemingly supportively discussed SPEW with Hermione, as Harry notes across the table at No. 12], who is Remus Lupin, [I]really[/I]?

I feel sure that Lupin's symbolic brother was James, as Lupin was estranged from Sirius until Pettigrew's betrayal was revealed at conclusion of PoA. But surely James did not kill Lupin; James would never have done so, certainly not intentionally. And of course, Lupin still walks. But Lupin's name is tied to War, as well. Clearly, Lupin will be a key figure in the external war for Harry, as well as in Harry's internal war to overcome the scars and pain of his past and present. But there is more to Lupin and undoubtedly there is much about James that Lupin has yet to reveal. And this implies…what? Lupin didn't die in the first [round of ] "war" - in fact, James did. James died, so what could Lupin's first name possibly signify? I'll go no further without any shred of evidence, but I am banking that Lupin's irreplaceable knowledge of James will be key to Harry's reconciliation of his father's character and his father's death.

Mega

July 31st, 2003, 5:03 pm

Daveydee as of right now Harry doesn't even know Ron has feelings for Hermione. So if he wants Hermione then their is nothing stopping him.

FlyingPhoenix

July 31st, 2003, 5:07 pm

Forgive me for saying so, but I think Ron in so many levels is a better "friend" to Harry than Hermione. I am not going down the "hermione is bad for harry" road but by the shape the posts have been going recently, this is something that needs to be challenged.

This depents on how you see at it. IMO they are quiet on the same level in GoF. Its true Ron was from PS/SS till PoA or GOF a "better" friend to Harry but its depent from which ankle I look at it.

Is a better friend depent on it if I tell you the true, my opinion no matter what? Or is it if I tell you exactly that what you wanna hear?

For the first three years was it Ron who was a better friend to Harry and that was fine it did fit to the atmosphere in this books. But how I said in my post before it was generally easier to becaome friend with Ron for Harry as with Hermione. By her needed it a 12 feet (again 12) tall trol to become with her friends and like I said this show how the friendship will be.
Hermione needed til GoF than she was on one step with Ron in things like friendship. By now she is overroling Ron.

I don't think in the future Harry will start listening to Hermione. It is in his nature to be Harry, to break rules, or to do something he really wants, he will do it. Hermione needs to realise this, and change the way that she sets about caring for Harry- not the actual care itself (which is ok).

There is a problem and you know which one? Its that Hermione was only in OotP really annoy Harry about stuff. Before she was it who did help to break rules. She didn't stop Harry as he and herself used the polyjuice potion what broke 50 school rules. Or as she forced him in PS/SS to go into the r-section. Or walking at nights through the castle. So she do break rules much easier as I thought at the beginning. She overact only if its gos about Harrys life and that is something I don't want that she change this.

Better friend is the wrong word I prefer the very first best friend.

Fairydust

July 31st, 2003, 5:15 pm

If i could never have R/H...i'd still never want H/H. I don't see the chemistry between the two. I'm sorry, but I don't. There's more chemistry between Luna and Harry for goodness sakes. If you look at all the subtle clues. You would see that there's foreshadowing of an R/H and H/G relationship. Luna can be with Neville. I like those two... :agree:

FlyingPhoenix

July 31st, 2003, 5:17 pm

I wonder if Ginny is ruled too by mercury? I mean this would be ironic. Especially in order to Neville because he is lion like Harry.

Nice post eva.

Daveydee

July 31st, 2003, 5:24 pm

Daveydee as of right now Harry doesn't even know Ron has feelings for Hermione. So if he wants Hermione then their is nothing stopping him.

You've addressed this to me, but it was AvadaKedavra who asked the original question. Now read AK's question again - carefully.

I think Harry knows of Ron's feelings for Hermione. Let's assume that Hermione makes a move on Harry, and Harry knows Ron still likes Hermione. Will Harry brush aside HIS BEST FRIEND IN THE WHOLE WORLD'S feelings aside and go ahead anyway?

Fairydust

July 31st, 2003, 5:28 pm

NO he wouldn't.

SeniorFishy

July 31st, 2003, 5:29 pm

My biggest problem with a R/Hr relationship is that it felt like the whole thing took a giant step backwards in OotP. The general feeling I got is that Hermione wants to keep Ron as a friend, and nothing else. It seemed that she notices Ron's moves and is gently trying to put him down, seeing if perhaps she can get out of this whole odd situation without totally pissing of Ron. It seemed like the tension that was in the previous books has died down and the feelings if any are just all one sided. I think the constant mentioning of Victor and Her interest in Harry's love interests are there to try to give signs to Ron that she doesn't want it to go any further. The whole ordeal with the perfume was to try and tell Ron that it won't happen. This might sound a bit mean, but I believe that Hermione wants someone better than Ron, and I honestly believe that she deserves someone better.

Mutant for Hire

July 31st, 2003, 5:30 pm

Why am I in favor of Ron and Hermione? The fact of the matter is that the guy does have his downside, but he also has his good sides as well, and it's far too easy to focus on the negatives and overlook the positives. When you look past the bickering, you find a history of support and help to Hermione across the books that surpasses the record of Harry Potter himself with respect to Hermione.

Who was it in book two who had to be physically restrained over and over again because Malfoy said something unpleasant about Hermione? It wasn't Harry. Not that he agreed with what Malfoy was saying, but Ron was the one who was most fervent in his support of Hermione in that book. And in other books as well. For all he and Hermione bicker, whenever someone says something unpleasant about her, such as that Rita Skeeter article in book four, Ron is firmly in Hermione's camp.

Then there was book three. While one can look at the fact that Ron and Hermione had a falling out over their pets, it is the reconciliation that really stands out. Hermione told them of what happened at the Ministry with Buckbeak, and Ron instantly volunteered to help Hermione out. Which got Hermione hugging him and crying and poor Ron not exactly sure how to handle this situation. I think that Ron made a very good impression on Hermione in that moment. She really needed help and Ron was giving it to her. Harry did not volunteer to help, nor did he get that sort of response from her. It was Ron who spent the following weeks slaving away at books to try to save Buckbeak, not Harry.

In book five, Hermione starts using subterfuge to try to free the House Elves against their will. Ron is the one who stands up as the voice of morality there. Ron objects to Hermone using trickery to do things to the House Elves that they don't want. Perhaps the slavery of the House Elves is of foul magic, but Hermione's methods aren't exactly the right ones. Her heart is in the right place, but the ends do not justify the means. One of the few times Hermione needs someone to take a moral position against her, and its Ron who is doing it. He warns her that the House Elves aren't going to like it, and as Harry finds out later, Ron was right.

The fact of the matter is that Harry mainly helps Hermione in issues that are of concern to him as well as her. He was not very helpful during the whole Buckbeak mess up until he had to break Buckbeak out by force, and Harry had the agenda of rescuing Sirius as well. It would have been more impressive if he had helped Ron with the reading for the trial proper. Instead he let Ron do the hard, tedious work. And he failed to tell Hermione about what Dobby was doing in book five, which means he's let Hermione knowingly waste all this effort for months now. She is not going to be happy that Harry kept this from her. Harry seems mostly indifferent to Hermione's efforts. Ron was not indifferent even if he was opposed, and I still think that's a step up.

I think that this situation with the problems between the House Elves and Hermione is going to blow up into a real mess. And I think Ron is going to be the first one to help Hermione, as he was the first last time to help her with the problems with Buckbeak. Given his performance in book three, and for that matter his indifference to S.P.E.W.'s failure and the problems its causing in book five, I'm not optimistic that Harry is going to help in book six. Ron at least made an effort in book five to keep Hermione from freeign House Elves against their will, making them see the trap that Hermione set for them.

I think that Ron, by dint of simply being there for her and helping her with things that matter to her, is going to earn her love and respect. I also think he's going to be doing a bit of growing up during his sixth year, the way that James Potter did, which is probably going to help a bit as well. Ron has many virtues, and sometimes its easy to lose track of them. I think the look Hermione gave Ron after he tore up and burned Percy's letter indicates that she herself realized that Ron is a very good person. Ron's thanking her and other praise of her was also getting a positive reception in that scene. I think there was genuine warmth between them in that scene, signs that the eternal arguing could give way to other things in time, if they simply start being nice to each other.

She gives him a lot of emotional support when he's struggling with Quidditch, despite the fact that she herself only has academic interest in the game. So why make the effort if she's not really caring if the team wins? Because its Ron that's having the problems there and it bothers her that he's depressed like that. She's more concerned about his feelings than anything else. And when it comes time to wish luck for the game, the first thing she does is kiss Ron on the cheek. It is debatable whether or not Harry got a kiss, but even if he did, she went to Ron first.

I think Hermione finds Ron very frustrating, because he can be brave and kind and loyal and a whole list of virtues in his good moments, and then he can be immature or thoughtless and say things that drive her up the wall on other occasions. Actually, in the discussions that Hermione and Harry have had with Cho, frustration about Ron has leaked out more than once. What the root of that frustration is isn't at all certain, but I tend to think that Hermione is far more sensitive to Ron than she is to Harry. Sensitive in the sense that she reacts more strongly to him than to Harry. Even Ron's obvious flattery does seem to have an effect of mollifying her feelings.

Hermione is a good person and she's given a lot over the series. I think the guy she should end up with is the guy that has given her the most back and the one who has stood up for her the most, and I think that guy is Ron, not Harry. He's already been there for her when she needed it once before, and he'll be there going ahead as well. And I think his helping her with the mess that S.P.E.W. is going to become is going to be what makes her realize he is the guy for her. Someone who is there for her as well as her being there for them.

Abstract

July 31st, 2003, 5:31 pm

I suppose if I had to choose a ship it would be: R/H

However, Mrs Rowlings has proven difficult to read sometimes. I just seriously doubt H/H would happen mainly. But R/H may not even happen. The stories are turning darker and darker as they come in. OotP was the darkest of all.

However. I must state, you cannot use facts and be exacting when you are talking about human relationships. The only fact you can place down on the table to support an emotional debate such as this, is if something that the characters actually did to confirm a definate relationships. Most of the things I've seen stated support only conjecture and opinion.

Go Ronnie go!

Fairydust

July 31st, 2003, 5:41 pm

Yes! Ron all the way! R/H all the way.

GryffindorGal

July 31st, 2003, 6:00 pm

It's true that clashes with Harry do affect Hermione. Fights with friends are never pleasant. Throughout OotP Harry is pretty upset. He yells at everybody so I don't think the fact that he yells at Hermione is particularly revealing of any deeper feelings. What I find so important about Ron and Hermione's huge fight in GoF is that she loses control. Hermione strikes me as the kind of girl who likes to have everything on an even keel. I find it interesting that Ron is the one who can make her lose her cool.

If you'd just been accused by one friend of betraying another. A friend that you'd spent considerable time and effort in helping to keep alive over the past 3 1/2 years. One to whom you, unlike your accuser, had been incrediably loyal you'd probably blow your top as well.

I'd have lost mine well before the Yule Ball.

FlyingPhoenix

July 31st, 2003, 6:06 pm

Who was it in book two who had to be physically restrained over and over again because Malfoy said something unpleasant about Hermione? It wasn't Harry. Not that he agreed with what Malfoy was saying, but Ron was the one who was most fervent in his support of Hermione in that book. And in other books as well.

Not only Ron did react everytime another Weasley was around they act just the same. In COS was it the Twins, in OotP Ginny.
By the Way Harry didn't know what it means in COS like Hermione.

Hermione told them of what happened at the Ministry with Buckbeak, and Ron instantly volunteered to help Hermione out.
Just because he had a nice chat with Hagrid where he said that Hermione has her heart on the right place. Harry was sorry and wanted to offer his help but Hagrid said he had enough to do with practise quiditch so it could have been only Ron.

Which got Hermione hugging him and crying and poor Ron not exactly sure how to handle this situation. I think that Ron made a very good impression on Hermione in that moment

She did it because everything comes down on her at this moment. First she don't sleep anymore enough than the fight with Ron and than the loseing of Buckbeak, poor girl really. In any other moment Ron wouldn't get such a image of Hermione where she nearly break down. He had this fight since nearly 3 months heavy enough for my taste.

Ron is the one who stands up as the voice of morality there. Ron objects to Hermone using trickery to do things to the House Elves that they don't want.
This isn't realy a standing up because Hermione just don't care which opinion Ron has

The fact of the matter is that Harry mainly helps Hermione in issues that are of concern to him as well as her. He was not very helpful during the whole Buckbeak mess up until he had to break Buckbeak out by force, and Harry had the agenda of rescuing Sirius as well. It would have been more impressive if he had helped Ron with the reading for the trial proper. Instead he let Ron do the hard, tedious work. And he failed to tell Hermione about what Dobby was doing in book five, which means he's let Hermione knowingly waste all this effort for months now. She is not going to be happy that Harry kept this from her. Harry seems mostly indifferent to Hermione's efforts. Ron was not indifferent even if he was opposed, and I still think that's a step up.
Like I said Quiditch at every evening and much more homework. Ron that he has to waste all his time because he has from all three the most freetime. Do you believe Hermione had stoped? I for once not.

I think the look Hermione gave Ron after he tore up and burned Percy's letter indicates that she herself realized that Ron is a very good person I hope she know this already.

She gives him a lot of emotional support when he's struggling with Quidditch, despite the fact that she herself only has academic interest in the game. So why make the effort if she's not really caring if the team wins? Because its Ron that's having the problems there and it bothers her that he's depressed like that. She did hid it very well if she did surport him that much. Well, she has at the moment as both were still in the Team indeed no problem if Ron catch a quaffle or not because as long Harry catch the snitch is everything fine.

What the root of that frustration is isn't at all certain, but I tend to think that Hermione is far more sensitive to Ron than she is to Harry. Sensitive in the sense that she reacts more strongly to him than to Harry. Even Ron's obvious flattery does seem to have an effect of mollifying her feelings. To tell someone to shut up or that he is the most immatureal guy she had the unfortune to meet or that he has feeling like a teaspoon thats sensitive. I don't want see if she get unsensitive

Nice post Mutant though I had to disagree

Turambar

July 31st, 2003, 6:06 pm

:clap: :clap: Great work FP, Evaluna and Perdy especially.

Hawk 92

July 31st, 2003, 6:07 pm

AK

We see Ron "like" Fleur. Hermione displays animosity to Fleur. This could be explained away by- Harry too! But, we see Luna "like" Ron. Hermione does display some animosity to Luna. This might be because Luna is the opposite of Hermione, or it might not be.

The fact remains, there have been two girls who could have been romantically involved with Ronald Weasley, and Hermione Granger has displayed animosity to both of them, with an undefinable reason.

HERMIONE/FLEUR - JEALOUS OR DISLIKE?

Now I've heard alot about how Hermione is jealous of Fleur and Ron flirting and I've heard how its because Ron is superficial. But I have a different theory I think that Hermione simply does not like Fleur.

Now to prove this I turn to the text,

Gof pg 250-251 US.

"Good evening, ladies and genltemen, ghosts and -most particularly-guests,"said Dumbledore, beaming around at the foreign students. "I have great pleasure in welcoming you all to Hogwarts. I hope and trust that your stay here will be both comfortable and enjoyable."
One of the Beauxbatons girls still clutching a muffler around her head gave what was unmistakeably a derisive laugh.
"No one's making you stay!" Hermione whispered, bristling at her.

Gof pg 252 US

It was the girl from Beauxbatons who had laughed during Dumbledore's speech. She had finally removed her muffler. A long sheet of silvery-blonde hair fell almost to her waist. She had large, deep blue eyes, and very white, even teeth.

The girl is of course Fleur. After this paragraph Ron begins to flirt with Fleur.

Now lets analyze this....

1) Dumbledore is giving a welcoming speech
2) A Beauxbaton girl gives a derisive laugh
3) Hermione gets mad at that girl
4) JKR points out that Fleur was the one to laugh at Dumbledore's speech
5) Ron flirts with Feur

1) Nothing much here Dumbledore is extending the best hospitality and is being a gracious and welcoming host.

2) A derisive laugh is a scornful contemptable laugh. This Beauxbaton girl is scorning and treating with contempt Hogwarts and Dumbledore acts of hospitality. Please note that JKR makes sure that we know that it is an "unmistakeably a derisive laugh." JKR wants to drive it home.

3)Hermione becomes mad at the girl for being scornful of her school (which she cares about) and Dumbledore (whom she respects). Hermione dislikes this girl and her attitude.

4) JKR makes the connection for us that the girl who laughed is Fleur. We are never left to wonder who the girl is who laughed. JKR makes sure that we know that Fleur is the girl who Hermione was mad at for acting scornful of Hogwarts and Dumbledore. There is no debate at all here.

5) Ron acts flirty with a girl who acts scornful of their school and their Headmaster. And Ron calls Hermione the traitor later. Kinda hypocritical don't you think but thats not relavant here.

Now JKR makes sure that we know that Fleur has done something before Ron flirts with her. And JKR makes sure that we know that Hermione does not care for Fleur for her attitude towards Hogwarts and their teacher.

Now if the Ron/Fleur interaction is to make us aware of Hermione's jealousy then why does JKR make sure that we know that Hermione has a reason to, and a dislike, of Fleur before she shows us any interaction between Ron and Fleur?

Here it is established in text. Now if you'd care to show us where Hermione acts jealous over a Ron/Luna moment. Text please.

I think Harry knows of Ron's feelings for Hermione. Let's assume that Hermione makes a move on Harry, and Harry knows Ron still likes Hermione. Will Harry brush aside HIS BEST FRIEND IN THE WHOLE WORLD'S feelings aside and go ahead anyway?

Back to the all about Ron again. So what your saying is that Hermione must return Ron's feelings. Even if she loves someone else she must return Ron's feelings. And your saying that Ron doesn't care enough about Hermione to let her be happy if she loves someone else. And you say the Harry and Hermione should be all to happy to sacrifice for Ron but Ron shouldn't care enough about his friends to want to sacrifice in return.

In short what your saying is that you cannot see a way that JKR could write H/Hr and not cut Ron out. You don't want this to happen so it must be Hr/R.

So you can't see Ron maturing and caring about his friends?

Cheers!

FlyingPhoenix

July 31st, 2003, 6:11 pm

I start to like my new avatar.

Anyway I think we losing track here. Its for me new that SPEW will be a mess maybe can give me a clear view because this part of Mutants post I didn't get.

Kalie

July 31st, 2003, 6:18 pm

Buckbeak

July 31st, 2003, 6:21 pm

Right im mainly going to defend Harry here rather than give my views on R/Hr, so bare with my ranting.

Who was it in book two who had to be physically restrained over and over again because Malfoy said something unpleasant about Hermione? It wasn't Harry. Not that he agreed with what Malfoy was saying, but Ron was the one who was most fervent in his support of Hermione in that book. And in other books as well. For all he and Hermione bicker, whenever someone says something unpleasant about her, such as that Rita Skeeter article in book four, Ron is firmly in Hermione's camp.

hey you've already shouted at me for Ron bashing, which im not doing by the way, i just think that, that whole Malfoy thing is not really realiable when you support R/Hr, iv already explained what i think about this, but no one ever reads my posts, their rubbish granted, but i tried to explain how this whole Malfoy calling Harmione a mudblood goes.
Despite what the movie sugests i don't believe Ron had any feelings for Hermione in the COS apart from friendship, sure he may seem like Hermione's knight in shining armour, but he wasn't the only one who was about to stick up for her, Fred and George were willing to pounce on Malfoy, but Flint got in the way, and im sure they would have gotten there before Ron had even produced his wand. Personally i think the Weasleys have been brought to hate anything that goes against muggleborns, and the fact it was Hermione, she was his best friend so its understandable, but in defence of Harry, for all he knew Malfoy could have been saying 'No one asked for your opinon you filthy little fly thats sitting on Hermione nose' ok that unlikely but you can't blame Harry he's fairly new to the wizarding world and he doesn't read alot of books so basically he has to learn something new every year.

Then there was book three. While one can look at the fact that Ron and Hermione had a falling out over their pets, it is the reconciliation that really stands out. Hermione told them of what happened at the Ministry with Buckbeak, and Ron instantly volunteered to help Hermione out. Which got Hermione hugging him and crying and poor Ron not exactly sure how to handle this situation. I think that Ron made a very good impression on Hermione in that moment. She really needed help and Ron was giving it to her. Harry did not volunteer to help, nor did he get that sort of response from her. It was Ron who spent the following weeks slaving away at books to try to save Buckbeak, not Harry.

did you forget Harry had a pycho mass murderer after him, i suppose my mind would be on other things too.

In book five, Hermione starts using subterfuge to try to free the House Elves against their will. Ron is the one who stands up as the voice of morality there. Ron objects to Hermone using trickery to do things to the House Elves that they don't want. Perhaps the slavery of the House Elves is of foul magic, but Hermione's methods aren't exactly the right ones. Her heart is in the right place, but the ends do not justify the means. One of the few times Hermione needs someone to take a moral position against her, and its Ron who is doing it. He warns her that the House Elves aren't going to like it, and as Harry finds out later, Ron was right.
The fact of the matter is that Harry mainly helps Hermione in issues that are of concern to him as well as her. He was not very helpful during the whole Buckbeak mess up until he had to break Buckbeak out by force, and Harry had the agenda of rescuing Sirius as well. It would have been more impressive if he had helped Ron with the reading for the trial proper. Instead he let Ron do the hard, tedious work. And he failed to tell Hermione about what Dobby was doing in book five, which means he's let Hermione knowingly waste all this effort for months now. She is not going to be happy that Harry kept this from her. Harry seems mostly indifferent to Hermione's efforts. Ron was not indifferent even if he was opposed, and I still think that's a step up..

yeah and Ron also makes a point to call it spew instead of S.P.E.W causes he knows Hermione hates that. Also your basically calling Harry selfish by saying that he only helps out people if its in his best interests, well that couldn't be further from the truth, for one thing he wasn't selfish about not telling Hermione about her hats, he comments on not having the heart to tell her that her plan is not working.

There you've heard what i think. thanks.

By the way its Harry's birthday today and JKR's did anyone
know. :birthday:

(i can see you all laughing at the complete weirdo that is me) :nc:

FlyingPhoenix

July 31st, 2003, 6:25 pm

Buckbeak, I did read your post and what you said about defending Hermione is absolute right so long don't thing your post was ignored. I would never do such a thing, really. ;)

Buckbeak

July 31st, 2003, 6:33 pm

Thanks FP, your so sweet :)

Earendil

July 31st, 2003, 6:55 pm

There comes a time in every shipper's life when he or she must wonder whether we are all reading the same books.

No, seriously, well-thought out post, Mutant, but there are quite a few things I disagree with.

Originally posted by Mutant for Hire
Who was it in book two who had to be physically restrained over and over again because Malfoy said something unpleasant about Hermione?

The same kid who had to be physically restrained over and over throughout the course of the entire series because Malfoy insulted his mom, his dad, his sister, his house, and whatever else Malfoy likes to insult. Ron's problem with Malfoy does not only extend to Malfoy's slander of Hermione, nor are his hot-tempered retaliations are never met with admiration and gratitude from Hermione.

Hermione told them of what happened at the Ministry with Buckbeak, and Ron instantly volunteered to help Hermione out. Which got Hermione hugging him and crying and poor Ron not exactly sure how to handle this situation. I think that Ron made a very good impression on Hermione in that moment. She really needed help and Ron was giving it to her. Harry did not volunteer to help, nor did he get that sort of response from her. It was Ron who spent the following weeks slaving away at books to try to save Buckbeak, not Harry.

Ron didn't do this for Hermione. It was Hagrid whom he was providing this assistance for. Also, I find it interesting that Ron never even apologized to Hermione for being immature and helping to make her life utterly miserable. I firmly believe that both Ron and Hermione were partially at fault in the Scabbers/Crookshanks fight, but goodness knows that it takes two hands to clap, and the only apology I heard came from Hermione. The only thing Ron made up for was his neglect of Buckbeak's trial--which, by the way, Harry could not have possibly helped out with. Hagrid made it clear for narrative purposes that Harry had a good excuse for not helping out to begin with, while Ron had none.

In book five, Hermione starts using subterfuge to try to free the House Elves against their will. Ron is the one who stands up as the voice of morality there.

The voice of morality? That's an interesting choice of words there. I would say that he is the voice of realism as opposed to the voice of idealism, which was partially what Hermione was applying to her campaign. Whatever voice Ron is channeling, it doesn't seem to be bothering to make itself heard in OotP. All Ron did about SPEW was to mutter rudely about Hermione behind her back and to clear the rubbish off the hats when she wasn't looking. It doesn't appear that he's bothering to try and get through to her anymore.

He warns her that the House Elves aren't going to like it, and as Harry finds out later, Ron was right.

Again, Ron never tries to make a decent case to Hermione and help her to understand. He tells her that house-elves LIKE to be enslaved, because that is what he has grown up knowing and becoming accustomed to.

"Open your ears, Hermione," said Ron loudly. "They. Like. It."

Then he complains about her nagging of the house-elves and makes it clear that he wants nothing to do with her campaign, although he never bothers to make a sufficient case against it.

"You're trying to rope us into that SPEW stuff again!" <snip> "I'm not going to try and stir them into a revolt, I'm not going to...."

"Way to go, Hermione," said Ron. "Now they won't want us coming back! We could've gotten more stuff out of Winky about Crouch!"

I fail to see how Ron is taking a moral stand against Hermione. All he is doing is belittling her attempts and complaining about her stubbornness, because it annoys him. If anyone is taking a stand against Hermione on this subject, I would say that Mr. Weasley and Fred actually bothered to present their opinions on it with some kind of substance to back up their assertions.

And he failed to tell Hermione about what Dobby was doing in book five, which means he's let Hermione knowingly waste all this effort for months now.

And Ron failed to tell Hermione that he cleared away the disguise on the hats and thus made it impossible for her to free any elves in the first place.

I think the look Hermione gave Ron after he tore up and burned Percy's letter indicates that she herself realized that Ron is a very good person.

I hope that I've misinterpreted you here, because I would imagine that Hermione knew all along that Ron was a very good person, seeing as how they've been best friends for five years.

She gives him a lot of emotional support when he's struggling with Quidditch, despite the fact that she herself only has academic interest in the game.

Off the top of my head, here are the only instances in OotP in which I can personally remember Hermione showing sympathy for Ron's Quidditch misery. Someone please correct me if I've overlooked something.

....her frostiness seemed to melt. "Well, it was only your first one," said Hermione consolingly. "You're bound to--"
"Who said it was me who made it lousy?"

"Have you seen Ron?" asked Hermione. "I think he's avoiding us."
<enter Ron> "Where have you been?" Hermione asked anxiously. "Come and sit down."

Other than that, Ron appeared to be offended by Hermione's lack of open enthusiasm on his making the team. The only words of encouragement she can display for Ron before his first match--when he is absolutely faint with nerves, no less--is a "hearty" comment about performing better in exams when you're nervous. This is in sharp contrast with the girl who was literally looking terrified before Harry's first match in SS/PS. Hermione didn't even express any pity for the kid who appeared to be longing to drown himself in the dregs of his cereal. Not to mention the fact that she made a semi-snarky remark about her happiness not depending on Ron's ability as a goal-keeper. If she's ever made a nasty comment like that behind Harry's back, then I'm a flobberworm.

And when it comes time to wish luck for the game, the first thing she does is kiss Ron on the cheek. It is debatable whether or not Harry got a kiss, but even if he did, she went to Ron first.

First in OotP. The first ever to receive a kiss from Hermione was Harry, at the end of GoF.

Just for the record, I'm of the school of thought that Harry did NOT receive a kiss after Ron in OotP, as much as the grammar perplexes me. However, it is true that Hermione kissed Harry well before she ever kissed Ron, no matter how much shippers debate about the different reactions.

What the root of that frustration is isn't at all certain, but I tend to think that Hermione is far more sensitive to Ron than she is to Harry. Sensitive in the sense that she reacts more strongly to him than to Harry. Even Ron's obvious flattery does seem to have an effect of mollifying her feelings.

She reacts more strongly to him because she's provoked more by him. Where else does she respond more to Ron than to Harry, other than when she is fighting with Ron?

As for the flattery, Hermione responds well to flattery from anyone. She laps it up from Hagrid, Flitwick, and Terry Boot. I know exactly what quote from canon the "mollification" statement is coming from, and it's interesing that it's following up a retort from Ron about Hermione rubbing her intellectual superiority in his face.

:wow: at evaluna's post on Luna, Lupin, and the moon. Very interesting and well thought out.

GilyAnn

July 31st, 2003, 6:58 pm

GilyAnn, it's certainly true that many things need to happen in order to end the slavery of the house elves, and certainly their oppressed worldview and limitations of experience must be taken into account with sensitivity. Nonetheless you are putting far more on Hermione's shoulders than is humanly fair. It is not her responsibility to raise the consciousness of everyone in the wizarding world -- it's up to each individual to do that for him- or herself. Nor can Hermione force the racism and prejudice from their hearts. Again, that is a responsibility that we all share. Hermione is doing everything she feels she must, from the position of her beliefs, to raise the issue and present another perspective, that perhaps it's not alright and that perhaps the wizarding world has chosen the easy way out on this issue rather than the right way. We can assume that as she matures and gains more experience of politics and bureaucracy, Hermione will find ever more strategic ways to implement her vision.

You see I don't deny that Hermione has good intentions. Hell, I believe in them. But having good intentions and having good tactics are too different things. Hermione has the whole wizarding world against her. She even has the Elf's against her. Hermione has a tunel vision on this and refuses to hear anybody that has a different opinion. The first person she needed to CALMLY explain her POV was to Ron. He has the prejudice of the wizarding world. But he also has in the back of his mind a small doubt whether is right or wrong. That's what Hermione had to take advantage off. But she didn't instead Ron she attacks him about the subject which only causes for him to be more stubborn on his PoV. It's good the have a cause but you need people behind you and right now Hermione is standing alone on that issue. Hardly something good for a cause. Furthermore Hermione doesn't think about what would happend if the elves would have been set out free against their own will. The reason why this didn't become a bigger issue was because Dobby was covering for her. But it could have been a real issue if she would have set some house Elf's free and Umbridge would have found out. She probably would have kick her out and the she would have been no good to the Elf's and nothing would have been achieved. All for nothing because no even one person actually believed her and then she couldn't have done anything else.

Sorry but you seems to misunderstand my post I'm more as just sure if my post did say that what you implied in it than my shipmates and nonshipper did all jump on me. I did never say that Harry became friends with Hermione on the train. I did not even write Hermione in the train not a single moment in my post. I ask myself did I read a different post of my. Maybe someone runs around with my name and post such stuff. All what I said is that Harry has never difficults to become friend with Ron directly as he saw him on the train. Like I said Mrs. Weasley dos say that Harry is like a son to her but sadly it will never be the same like with Harrys real mother. So indeed that include Mrs. Weasley is very important.

You said this:

On the train Harry find his very first friend. To be honest it wasn't difficult to become friend with Ron.

You are implying that Hermione became friends with Harry on the train.

I didn't say it but if you understand it like that than is it not my fault. I said his first friend in Harrys life well if that isn't important than I don't know. Ron is the very, nah not exactly Hagrid was first but that is different, first best friend which Harry has ever in his whole life. Do you really believe I don't know that this is important and that I don't know how special this make Ron for Harry? If you believe that than you has never understand my post.

You disregard the importance of Ron when you say that he was an easier Friend to make and that Hermione is his first real friend.

Again Hermione do love Harry but not in a romantical way. Not like you might understand it. If I say emotions than I mean she shows in front of Harry more emotions in PS/SS as to any other person. That implied that he is for her very important. If that say she loves him. Yeah she do but different as you think.

Is either one or the other. If she loves him romatically speaking then she doesnt' has feelings on a friendship level and viceversa. But you are implying that she loves him romantically.

All nice points but not a single off them has that what Hermione did in the first year. Nobody, if I say nobody than I indeed mean nobody, did tell Harry in his first year after ten year without any careing, without any kind of love that he is practiculary a great person and that he should be careful. Something what he hears the very first time in his whole life that is what every person want hear once in his life. In COS at the end Hermione ask if his aunt ot uncle aren't proud of him you know what he answer? That they are disapointment that Harry didn't die. Thats exactly why this little word "be careful!" means so much in his first year. Harry don't need to remember this hug and not this kiss because Hermione is just always around him. Mrs. Weasley did sort of reach Harry but she don't get that near of his heart as if this were the same like his own mother. Nobody of the Weasleys reach his parents and nobody can give him this feeling to be a part of there family. You need only look at OotP and the scene as it gos about Mr. Weasley. Sirius is that what Harrys heart could recorgnise as family and this he did lose in OotP. What I said is that Hermione did create a path into Harrys heart with this hug in PS/SS. This is IMO true because in another way I could not explain why Harry never did not understand Hermiones doing in all books. He never did stand ther and did not understand why she do things how she do it.

If Hermione would *have* created this path on Harry's life. Things would be different and we would be reminded how much Harry loves and cares for Hermione. But we hear those things about Ron. Ron is the one who is closest on Harry's heart.

H/Hr shippers are not the only ones to have noticed that Ron was slowly slipping away from the action in OotP. There's an entire multi-page thread in the Book Five Discussion Area called "Where's Ron?" The fact is that, if the stage is being set for a major falling-out or pulling-away or whatever it is between Harry and Hermione in the future, JKR is not going about it in a favorable way. Instead of having Hermione drop out of the important scenes, she's putting Harry and Hermione together. Without Ron. Why build up the importance of Hermione in these scenes if she's going to have her back away in the next two books and play second fiddle to a less developed and less important character?

If anything OoP demostrated was that Ron and Harry are closer to each other. What OoP showed was a desintegration of the trio. Eventually this will die out. They are not 11 anymore they are 15 soon to be 16 things changed. It's seems obvious to me that Ron has started to take the path of maturing, being more diplomatic and on his own path. Ron is the one who sets out the path. Next year this will happend to Harry and he will be the one who take a different path. Harry and Hermione were completly mess out in this book and this friendship needs a healer fast!

It seems that a considerable part of Harry and Hermione's friendship is being disregarded. Harry does not spend every waking moment of his time with Hermione in ignoring, disregarding, and objecting to her. If he did, I would begin to wonder why they're best friends. Canon, in fact, tells us that he does listen to her sometimes; he does appreciate her intelligence; they can have fun together, and they do get along perfectly well.

No I'm not disregarding it. But if you want to know why Harry doesn't appreciate Hermione enough I'm afraid that's a question for JKR and not me. You say that he appreciates her intelligence but he rarely says it to her. Even Hermione is aware that just like Ron Harry uses her for homework purposes. At least Ron shows it somehow by teasing her and always looking for her notes. Harry does the same but instead he let's Ron ask. Read my post carefully I never said that they are not friends but this friendship is being craked out by jkr herself not me!

But since when does hurt equal romance? You sometimes hurt the one you love, but you never do so conciously. Ron walks away from their fights feeling triumphant. Hermione walks away in tears.

This is not always the case. Hermione has had her triumphant her fair amount of times.

This isn't romantic in the least bit.

That's the problem for jkr it appears to be that it is.

If R/Hr were to get together, they would clash so often i'd be surprised if it lasts more than a week to be quite honest. Flaring temper relationships aren't the ones that last. There has to be respect, and Ron and Hermione lack the kind of respect for each other Harry and Hermione do. Ron has moved a step forward and gotten to respect Hermione a bit more in OOTP, but Hermione seems to have moved 2 steps backward in the respect department towards Ron.

I don't think that Hermione has gone 2 stepbackwards but I do believe that she needs to appreciate Ron more. But have faith I believe on the power of the master(jkr) and that she has enough good plot line to make Hermione appreciate more Ron.

Do she discredit Sirius because she don't like him? Dos she annoy Harry about his need to talk with Sirius because she has no idea how important Sirius is to him?
She did it because she know how important Sirius is to Harry. Thats the reason for her doing.

Well this is peachy of Hermione in this perspective. So for the sake that she knows how important he is on Harry live and how much he loves him and because she *believes* that she was right. Hermione has the power to harshly and willingly critized Sirius in the eyes of Harry. If this is true then it's even more of proof on how incompatible H/Hr are.

From the beginning of OotP is Hermiones goal that Harry know that no matter what his best friends are stand behind him. (Its Ron goal, too) Hermione and Ron both did saw Sirius without Harry around its the first time that they with him without Harry around. That say they get a different view about Sirius. Harry's thinking about Sirius is very alike to his thinking about his parents. There just don't exist any bad or wrong sides of Sirius character. After Harry's hearing also two weeks after Harry is at the PHQ and after Sirius was visible not that happy about Harrys return to Hogwarts do Hermione say this things about Sirius. She did it because Harry did feel sorry that he left Sirius behind.

Funny thing is that Ron didn't have the same perspective than Hermione neither Ginny, Fred, George, Mr. Weasley or Lupin. Harry has no reason to believe that Sirius was doing anything wrong and in the end even Dumbledore acepts that what he did was wrong. Sirius was a man of fights not a wimp to be hiding. Dumbledore's stupidity is what caused this mess. Making them think that he was reckeless because Sirius wanted to protect Harry.

About the point that Harry wanted to speak with Sirius or write Sirius a letter and Hermione was both not for it. Why are people think Hermione didn't understand Harrys need? Its only that she was more concerned about the fact what if through this Sirius get caught and go back to Azkaban? What if Sirius get the dementor kiss because of that? What if he die because of that? Than Harry will never again speak to him, will lose this person in his life who was like a father. It wasn't Hermione didn't understand, it was because she did understand. But it was more important for her to know Sirius is at the PHQ without any possible to talk with Harry in some months as that he sit in azkaban and is never again able to talk with Harry.

Hermione never said that in her words. She said he was being careless, selfish and guilty. That she agreed with Ron's mother about him being careless and that he was trying to live thru them.

Though H/HR is too obvious half the world believe it will be R/Hr kinda strange. Just strange.

Well don't be so sure. How many R/Hr are on this forum that is so popular!

Daveydee as of right now Harry doesn't even know Ron has feelings for Hermione. So if he wants Hermione then their is nothing stopping him.

I'm sure he does know about Ron's feelings.

gily Ann

noddwyd

July 31st, 2003, 7:06 pm

first of all, just wanna clear this up.
"a friend = someone who tells you the truth, especially when you don't want to hear it" I am quoting this from a bible, if anyone cares to know. Now, who did you say is his best friend?

I think Harry knows of Ron's feelings for Hermione. Let's assume that Hermione makes a move on Harry, and Harry knows Ron still likes Hermione. Will Harry brush aside HIS BEST FRIEND IN THE WHOLE WORLD'S feelings aside and go ahead anyway?

If he does indeed know of Ron's feelings, and I'm not certain he does, then he may be worried about how it will affect Ron, yes. But if that scenario does occur, then it means H/Hr do, in fact, concsiously realise they love each other. And if that happens, then I'm not sure what they'll do, I am not them. But as long as Harry has the capacity to love someone like that, then I think he will be able to defeat Voldemort with that power Dumbledore told him about. Plus, as Hawk says, the whole world doesn't revolve around Ron, and Love certainly can't be stopped because of his jealousy. But, as I have stated before, Ron does have a serious problem with jealousy and envy, in more ways than just this. And, as many have said, he is similar to Leontes in this respect. I just hope Ron doesn't go as far and murder his best friend over it or anything.

Fairydust

July 31st, 2003, 7:14 pm

Fairydust

July 31st, 2003, 7:15 pm

AvadaKedavra

July 31st, 2003, 7:19 pm

Hello you all.

Not one H/Hr shipper has answered my question. Hawk came closest, but all you did was to rip my question apart, explain in your opinion why it's not valid, but not actually answer it. I asked a fair question, and no one answered it. In an exam, if you're given a question about something you don't agree with, you still have to answer it. However, you can leave it blank and lose marks, which is the case here.

(I did say *assuming*).

Regarding the evidence about Luna, we both know that there isn't any direct evidence. I did indicate this in my original post, but I am stating that there is *still* animosity towards Luna, and there may be *other*, underlying reasons towards the animosity, despite the lack of canon to support this. Plus, I did point out the seemingly apparent *coincendence*, so this leads me to explore other possible reasons.

Fleur-

Note that JKR described her very well, and described Ron's fixation very well. As I've stated above, there can be more than one reason for disliking someone, and in my opinion, JKR is simply throwing a lifeline to the H/Hr shippers. :p

Earendil

:rotfl: I would absolutely love to find the evidence that declares you a flobberworm. But you're right, there isn't.

Seriously,

Hermione offers Ron moral support regarding quidditch, but what about Harry? In OOTP, I mean. Also, in PS/SS, Hermione was just a 11 year old girl. This was her first quidditch match too, her first time to watch one. She was frightened for Harry, as Quidditch is a *brutual* game, (the movies portray it very well) and Harry was just a small kid up against all of those *big* 6th years and so.

Cut to 4 years later. Hermione is a big girl now. She knows the game well, understands it and knows Harry's a tough nut. Ron is one too, and she doesn't want to be too *patronising* because look where that got her the last time. She does kiss him good luck, and I'm sorry but I am of the school of thought that the kiss was a *genuine* distraction ploy by Hermione.

Also, to answer your question about the responding, Hermione seems also to take the non-bickering Ron more seriously- Ron offers his theories and Harry scoffs but Hermione seems impressed. Hermione becomes *small* when Ron berates her about Grawp. Note the interesting reversal of roles here.

Signing out,

Avada

EDIT

Nowydd, apologies for not being *totally clear*. I am figuring it out from Harry's standpoint, who *he* thinks is *his* best friend.

Ok, if it was you, would you go ahead anyway?

Kalie

July 31st, 2003, 7:20 pm

The thing is, in no way shape or form has Harry shown any feelings towards Hermione that are more than platonic. Ron has. Hermione, in no way shape or form has shown any interests in Harry that are more than platonic. To Ron, she has.

Care to back up your statements with some good solid proof. Now, we all know Ron likes Hermione. I'm not denying. But give me some proof in which Hermione has shown more than friendly feelings toward Ron. What your stating here is an opinion.

Harry and Ginny. I think they'd be the greatest thing since sliced bread. I mean, Harry subconsciously checks her out for goodness sakes. I've posted this mant times. Harry subconsciously checks out Ginny. There's going to be something there. You just have to wait till the next book.

Once again, care to back that up. And while were on the subject of subconsciousness, have you noticed the way that Harry is always subconsciously thinking about Hermione...and not Ginny? Hmmm...and I remember people bragging and saying things like, "Ron and Hermione are going to date in the 5th book, I just know it! You wait and see!" And look what happened..they didn't. And I've seen greater things than sliced bread, thank you very much. Gah, I hate snarky comments like that.

Buckbeak

July 31st, 2003, 7:22 pm

The thing is, in no way shape or form has Harry shown any feelings towards Hermione that are more than platonic. Ron has. Hermione, in no way shape or form has shown any interests in Harry that are more than platonic. To Ron, she has.

Harry and Ginny. I think they'd be the greatest thing since sliced bread. I mean, Harry subconsciously checks her out for goodness sakes. I've posted this mant times. Harry subconsciously checks out Ginny. There's going to be something there. You just have to wait till the next book. :agree:

Hey, just a quick note on what your saying.

Harry has never shown any interests in Ginny anyway shape or form that are more platonic. (not even that really)

now im not saying that, that means its not possible, cause i actually like Ginny and Harry, but if he has never been interested in Ginny, and is meant to, then the same thing applys to Hermione.

and another thing Hermione has not really shown any feelings for Ron, yeah iv heard all the quotes that could prove me wrong, but personally even then i find it hard to believe Hermione likes Ron. sorry

Oh and Harry sub-contiously chacks out Parvti Patil as well (the exam) he's a teenage boy, i think he's aloud to insolently look at girls even if he has no real interest in them.

WeasleyIsOurKing

July 31st, 2003, 7:31 pm

The future R/H relationship is very obvious! They obviously like each other - Ron's jealousy of Viktor Krum (and it's not just because he's a good Quidditch player), Hermione's disapproval of Fleur Delacour, Ron giving Hermione perfume for Christmas, Hermione kissing Ron on the cheek before his Quidditch match.... sure, some people will say that Hermione kissed Harry too in the GoF, but that was only because they're friends and it was a very non-platonic kiss. Anyway, Ron and Hermione argue just like a married couple, their personalities balance the other's out very well - Hermione gets Ron back on track when he's goofing off too much, Ron helps Hermione relax, etc.

I think Harry and Ginny will end up together, too. Ginny looks similar to Lily (the hair, at least), and Harry looks just like James... probably just a coincedence, but I like to think of that. Harry has the chance to get to know Ginny better now because she isn't held back by her little crush. JKR has also said that she finds train stations to be very romantic, because her parents met at King's Cross. Well... Harry met Ginny at King's Cross!

Mega

July 31st, 2003, 7:39 pm

But he also has in the back of his mind a small doubt whether is right or wrong.

Care to back this up with some evidence?

Fairydust

July 31st, 2003, 7:41 pm

In regards to the way Harry checks out Ginny, it's all in the words that are chosen to describe her. The words that are chosen to describe her are very flattering. Harry checking out Parvati? Yeah, I saw that, I thought that was because he wasn't concentrating on his test and she was sitting right in front of him. He actually was wishing that he could see into her mind just to get answers from her about the test.

Kalie

July 31st, 2003, 7:43 pm

The future R/H relationship is very obvious!

See! Even a R/Hr shipper thinks they're obvious! Now this really confuses me, because some seem to think H/Hr is too obvious *scratches chin*

They obviously like each other - Ron's jealousy of Viktor Krum (and it's not just because he's a good Quidditch player), Hermione's disapproval of Fleur Delacour, Ron giving Hermione perfume for Christmas, Hermione kissing Ron on the cheek before his Quidditch match.... sure, some people will say that Hermione kissed Harry too in the GoF, but that was only because they're friends and it was a very non-platonic kiss. Anyway, Ron and Hermione argue just like a married couple, their personalities balance the other's out very well - Hermione gets Ron back on track when he's goofing off too much, Ron helps Hermione relax, etc.

Yes, we know that Ron likes Hermione, but I do not believe that Hermione likes Ron. Firstly, Hermione disliked Fleur WAY before Ron showed any interest in her( i.e. Snapping at her after she laughed at Dumbledore's speech ). This was before they began eating and before Ron goggled at her! Also, Hermione seemed to appreciate Harry's gift a bit more. Just look at her reaction. Girls appreciate different things. I'm not saying that she didn't like the perfume, I'm just saying that Hermione obviously loved Harry's book. Not all married couples argue like R/Hr. This is strictly an opinion and not a fact. Hermione doesn't get Ron back on track. He still begs for her homework! And Ron tends to get Hermione more worked up than relaxed.

I think Harry and Ginny will end up together, too. Ginny looks similar to Lily (the hair, at least), and Harry looks just like James... probably just a coincedence, but I like to think of that. Harry has the chance to get to know Ginny better now because she isn't held back by her little crush. JKR has also said that she finds train stations to be very romantic, because her parents met at King's Cross. Well... Harry met Ginny at King's Cross!

Looks don't hold too much weight for me. It's personality that you have to look out for. And I seriously doubt that JKR will write another L/J ove story. Oh, and Hermione and Harry met on a train. And unless, I'm mistaken, her parents got married on a train. So, that argument is completely useless as well.

Perdita

July 31st, 2003, 7:50 pm

I think Harry knows of Ron's feelings for Hermione. Let's assume that Hermione makes a move on Harry, and Harry knows Ron still likes Hermione. Will Harry brush aside HIS BEST FRIEND IN THE WHOLE WORLD'S feelings aside and go ahead anyway?

Avada, I think you mean this question, right? Okay, I’ll try to answer it.

First, Hermione is also Harry’s best friend, and I don’t think that it’s accurate to say that Ron is his best friend in the world. In PS/SS to GOF that may be so, but after GOF and OOTP, I honestly can’t agree with you on that statement.

Now, to answer your question, I would say that as of the end of OOTP, based on Harry’s character, he will not act on his feelings for Hermione even if he comes to the realization that he loves her. I think that he would feel very confused about the whole situation and not even have an inkling of how to face up to the two of them. I think he might try to avoid the issue instead of dealing with it.

That is my honest answer, but I don’t see how it helps any ship.

If he loves Hermione, he’s not going to stop loving her just because he knows that Ron feels the same way. He’s also not going to run to the next girl available just so he can have someone to love. Since Hermione loves Harry, unless he outrightly rejects her, I don’t think that she’ll stop loving him. And even if he does confront her and reject her, I don’t think she’s going to stop loving him just like that, much less fall in love with Ron right afterwards. Moreover, I doubt that Harry would even confront Hermione about it because, as I said, Harry will be more likely to avoid the issue.

Again, just because Harry might not act on his love doesn’t help your ship or any other ship.

Any number of things can change this, of course. For example:

-Ron dies.
-Hermione dies.
-Ron loves someone else.
-Ron stops loving Hermione.
-Ron gives up on Hermione because he knows that she loves Harry and wants her to be happy.
-Harry realizes that he cannot simply ignore love, but he must face it instead because it is such a wonderful thing.
-Harry dies.

Mega

July 31st, 2003, 7:50 pm

Fairydust Harry checks out almost every person he meets. Their is no difference between Harry checking out Ginny or checking out the bartender at the Hog's Head. It doe's not mean he's attracted to them. All Harry did was explain what Ginny looked like. He doe's that with everyone because this is Harry's POV and if he didn't we would not know what anyone looked like.

Fairydust

July 31st, 2003, 7:53 pm

I'm talking about the words used to describe Ginny. They are much more flattering than the way Hermione or what not is described.

Buckbeak

July 31st, 2003, 7:57 pm

Their is no difference between Harry checking out Ginny or checking out the bartender at the Hog's Head.

:lol: sorry i had to laugh at that :lol:

Mega

July 31st, 2003, 7:57 pm

Would you mind quoting what Harry said about Ginny from the book? I don't have my copy on me right now (last time I lend anything to my cousin).

Kalie

July 31st, 2003, 7:57 pm

Hmmm...Harry seemed to describe Hermione quite nicely during the Yule Ball. I don't remember him thinking of Ginny has "very pretty." He describes Ginny has having "flaming red hair." How is that more flattering? It just means that Ginny's hair obviously sticks out a bit more than Hermione who has brown hair.

Mega

July 31st, 2003, 8:00 pm

Very good point Kalie. Big thumbs up. :tu:

AvadaKedavra

July 31st, 2003, 8:02 pm

No, Perdita, but it certainly is another *complication* for H/Hr... Some people claim that H/Hr is gonna be smooth sailing

Hope1272

July 31st, 2003, 8:02 pm

But in all honesty Fairydust, Harry's observation of Ginny's physical likeness to George and Fred during a conversation isn't exactly flattering to her as a girl unless Fred and George are the prettiest boys in Hogwarts.

Edit:

To answer AK's question what Harry would do if Hermione made a move on him and he knew how Ron felt about Hermione: Yes, I think he would if he has come to the realisation that he loves her as well, But I think he and Hermione would try to talk to Ron before they proceeded any further. Ron is a friend to them both and I think that they would try to be as tactful as they could given Ron's past behavior.

But this really isn't a fair question. For one thing Harry's feelings aren't clear in this scenario and secondly, Harry is darned if he does and darned if he doesn't. If an H/Hr shipper says that he will, then Harry's a jerk who took the girl poor, best friend Ron is in love with. If an H/Hr shipper says that he won't, then the strength of his love for Hermione is in question. Whatever the outcome of the pairings, emotional blackmail shouldn't be a deciding factor and that's what we have in this scenario.

Earendil

July 31st, 2003, 8:04 pm

The points that are used to indicate that Harry finds Ginny attractive are the descriptions of her "bright" brown eyes, "vivid Weasley hair", her face "glowing like the setting sun", etc.

I need not say that I disagree with the positive connotation of these words necessarily indicating subconscious attraction on Harry's part, but that boils down to personal opinion. I would hope that Harry would show more signs of being attracted and admiring of Ginny's character, but I have yet to see this.

AK, I must have accidentally overlooked the question you're referring to in the all the kerfuffle over answering Mutant's post. Just so I don't go answering the wrong one, is this the one you're referring to?

I think Harry knows of Ron's feelings for Hermione. Let's assume that Hermione makes a move on Harry, and Harry knows Ron still likes Hermione. Will Harry brush aside HIS BEST FRIEND IN THE WHOLE WORLD'S feelings aside and go ahead anyway?

BTW, AK, I meant to say this before. Nice sig pic--although I never knew you shipped Percy/Hermione? ;) (Hey, a faceless kid with red hair could be any of the Weasley boys.)

:whistle:

evaluna

July 31st, 2003, 8:05 pm

Original post by FairyDust
Harry and Ginny. I think they'd be the greatest thing since sliced bread. I mean, Harry subconsciously checks her out for goodness sakes.

Absolutely no offense intended, but I can’t think of a single example [say, from OoP] where Harry subconsciously “checks [Ginny] out”. Could you be more specific? Also sliced bread is not the greatest thing since sliced bread. One man’s food being another man’s poison, and all…so let’s just toss that right out, shall we?

Original post by Mega
Fairydust Harry checks out almost every person he meets. Their is no difference between Harry checking out Ginny or checking out the bartender at the Hog's Head. It doe's not mean he's attracted to them. All Harry did was explain what Ginny looked like. He doe's that with everyone because this is Harry's POV and if he didn't we would not know what anyone looked like.

Fairydust, I agree with Mega but with one additional clarification: Harry does describe Madame Rosmerta as "pretty", as he has likewise done in GoF for several other girls, including: Hermione, Parvati, Fleur, and Cho. There is nothing more in OoP to indicate that Ginny [or Luna, for that matter] is now to be included on this "list" of girls Harry finds pretty or attractive. There is nothing more to indicate that anyone else has "dropped off" the original list, either. It doesn't mean that Ginny [or Luna] isn't pretty or attractive by others' standards; however there is simply no statement by Harry to indicate that he thinks so.

Moreover, of all the persons on Harry's "list", only Hermione is near and dear to him. Only Hermione is a person he admires and respects highly, a best friend, and someone he thinks about and upon whose form he dwells start-to-end in OoP, whether awake or dreaming. Only Hermione's voice whispers to him inside. And nowhere across the series was there a description of any female to rival the GoF Yule Ball scene when Hermione makes her entrance (lengthy description of Hermione, and Harry's "jaw dropped").

That is:
-Ginny is not on the list [neither is Luna].
-Out of everyone on Harry's list, Hermione gets the most attention regarding descriptive detail in any particular setting and certainly the most emphasis: Harry's "jaw dropped" -- (and Hermione is not part Veela as with Fleur...so this is Harry's purely natural reaction to Hermione)
-Most importantly by far, out of everyone Harry does find pretty or attractive, there seems only one for whom Harry already cares deeply, respects deeply, and admires deeply, and thus IMO there is only one who could become much more to Harry: Hermione.

BTW per Earendil's quotes, Harry also describes Tonks's dark eyes as bright or sparkling, and there are frequent references to all the Weasley's vivid hair colour (so, this proves...that Harry's not colour-blind -- yea!). The 'glowing face' reference is the only time [thanks Earendil] that Harry mentally notes anything about her in any way...too bad I can't recall the context of this quote...but one time out of an entire fat tome of several hundred pp. just doesn't really signify IMO.

(...and thanks to all who waded through my post & enjoyed :) GPE right back at you...)

Mega

July 31st, 2003, 8:09 pm

Could someone please quote from OotP where Harry is "supposedly" checking Ginny out and also quote from GoF the part when he is talking about the way Hermione looks at the Yule Ball?

Kalie

July 31st, 2003, 8:10 pm

Thanks, Mega ! I completely agree with that last statement by eveluna . Nothing else to say *hehe*

Buckbeak

July 31st, 2003, 8:15 pm

Hey AK if it is the question Earendil is refearing to, then i answered that ages ago, but you probably didn't notice so i'll post my answer again. thanks :)

oh and on to your question
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by AvadaKedavra

I think Harry knows of Ron's feelings for Hermione. Let's assume that Hermione makes a move on Harry, and Harry knows Ron still likes Hermione. Will Harry brush aside HIS BEST FRIEND IN THE WHOLE WORLD'S feelings aside and go ahead anyway?

Be honest, when you answer my question.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

this is the main reason why i think H/Hr will not get together, because i don't think Harry would do that to Ron and as iv said before it is forbidden in any friendship to go out with your bestfriends crush.
thanks

There simple answer.

Kalie

July 31st, 2003, 8:18 pm

also quote from GoF the part when he is talking about the way Hermione looks at the Yule Ball?

Ok, Yule Ball. Ch.23 pg. 413( American edition, paperback ).

Krum was at the front of the party, accompanied by a pretty girl in blue robes Harry didn't know.

Also...

His eyes fell instead on the girl next to Krum. His jaw dropped. It was Hermione. But she didn't look like Hermione at all. She had done something to her hair; it was no longer bushy, but sleek and shiny, and twisted up in an elegant knot at the back of her head. She was wearing robes made of a floaty, periwinkle-blue material, and she was holding herself differently somehow-or maybe it was merely the absence of the twenty or so books she had usually slung over her back. She was also smiling-rather nervously, it was true-but the reduction in the size of her front teeth was more noticable than ever; Harry couldn't understand how he hadn't noticed it before.

Hmmm...seems like he was "subconsiously checking her out."

Mega

July 31st, 2003, 8:19 pm

I think that at first Harry would try and ignore his feelings so that he would not hurt Ron's feelings. But I think with a little help from Hermione (who I don't think would care as much as Harry) they would just get it off and let Ron find out himself.

GryffindorGal

July 31st, 2003, 8:20 pm

Yes, we know that Ron likes Hermione, but I do not believe that Hermione likes Ron. Firstly, Hermione disliked Fleur WAY before Ron showed any interest in her( i.e. Snapping at her after she laughed at Dumbledore's speech ). This was before they began eating and before Ron goggled at her!

Yep and Harry was eyeing Cho. She told them both to put their eyes back in their heads (or words to that effect).

Also, Hermione seemed to appreciate Harry's gift a bit more. Just look at her reaction. Girls appreciate different things. I'm not saying that she didn't like the perfume, I'm just saying that Hermione obviously loved Harry's book.

I agree. Describing something as "unusual" is what one tends to say to avoid hurt feelings

Not all married couples argue like R/Hr. This is strictly an opinion and not a fact. Hermione doesn't get Ron back on track. He still begs for her homework! And Ron tends to get Hermione more worked up than relaxed.

Speaking as half of a married couple I agree that not all married couples argue like that. With a divorce rate of 50%, I daresay that many of those that do end up in those statistics.

Looks don't hold too much weight for me. It's personality that you have to look out for. And I seriously doubt that JKR will write another L/J ove story. Oh, and Hermione and Harry met on a train. And unless, I'm mistaken, her parents got married on a train. So, that argument is completely useless as well.

She said that she thinks that trains are romantic and that her parents met on a train leaving Kings Cross.

Earendil:

BTW, AK, I meant to say this before. Nice sig pic--although I never knew you shipped Percy/Hermione? ;) (Hey, a faceless kid with red hair could be any of the Weasley boys.) . .

That was Hermione? I thought it was Luna. Her hair looks blondeish to me :elaugh:

Sirius83

July 31st, 2003, 8:21 pm

Well Mega, for the first one, we don't have any instances of Hary "checking Ginny out"

The second, here's the bit out of GOF:

Krum was at the front of the party, accompanied by a pretty girl in blue robes Harry didn't know.

On the next page when he gets a closer look, it reas as follows:

...His eyes fell instead on the girl next to Krum. His jaw dropped.
It was Hermione.
But she didn't look like Hermione at all. She had done something with her hair; it was no longer bushy, but sleek and shiny, and twisted up into an elegant knot at the back of her head. She was wearing robes made of a floaty, periwinkle-blue material, and she was holding herself differently, somehow - or maybe it was merely the absence of the twenty or so books she usually had slung over her back. She was also smiling - rather nervously, it was true - but the reduction in the size of her front teeth was more noticeable than ever. Harry couldn't understand how he hadn't spotted it before.

Now that sounds like he was checking someone out - and it was Hermione. That is an absurdly long analysis of the girl. Read it aloud and see for yourself how long Harry was in essence gaping at Hermione. What also caught my eye as i was typing it out, is that Harry couldn't understand how he hadn't spotted it before. What is it? He already said the reduction in her front teeth was more noticeable than ever so he did notice them before. So what was he spotting? How pretty Hermione is? Sounds like it. He's woken up to the fact that Hermione's not just "one of the guys", but a girl and a very pretty one at that.

EDIT: While speaking of King's Cross, it's also the place JKR had Hermione "do something she had never done before" and kiss Harry. The fact that it's the final closing scene of GOF that is supposed to be so important is also quite interesting since love seems like love will play a huge role in the ending.

Mega

July 31st, 2003, 8:25 pm

You can't even compare what Harry said to Ginny in OotP to that. Harry definatly takes his time analyzing Hermione. See Fairydust that is what I call checking someone out.

Buckbeak

July 31st, 2003, 8:26 pm

Hey Mega your from England too, and i just have to say how glad i am that im not the only one up at 1 o'clock in the morning talking about Harry Potter. :)

Anyway have to say that i agree that Harry checks out Hermione more than he does Ginny, he also does it contiously so he's aware of it which must be better than sub-contiously, right?

Mega

July 31st, 2003, 8:30 pm

lol Buckbeak :D :D. What can I say?

Sirius83

July 31st, 2003, 8:31 pm

Actually, wasn't this followed up in OOTP? Harry was checking Hermione out at the ball, and then there's the whole thing about how she stood by his side when nobody else would.

Then, in OOTP, we see Harry's subconcious. There is a part that speaks in Hermione's voice and he has a dream where Cho turns into Hermione. The turns into part is the most facinating part, because Cho is his crush. Hermione didn't just enter his dream or something, but Cho turned into Hermione. As in, Cho disappeared and Hermione took her place. Is Hermione replacing Cho as the subject of Harry's romantic affections? Seems so.

migo

July 31st, 2003, 8:35 pm

Not only Ron did react everytime another Weasley was around they act just the same. In COS was it the Twins, in OotP Ginny.
By the Way Harry didn't know what it means in COS like Hermione.

[...] etc etc [...]

Nice post Mutant though I had to disagree

Flying Phoenix , I'm sorry to sound rude but your post seemed to me something like: "Ron has no merit whatsoever in anything he does. In fact he sucks and this is why he will never end up with Hermione. She must end up with the Hero of the series"

I'm sorry if I misread and missed your point completely but I believe it's better that I share my opinion rather than not.

Nevertheless, enjoyed reading your post. :tu:

Sirius83

July 31st, 2003, 8:39 pm

migo: Welcome to the thread, and i should mention something. Nobody is bashing the characters here. However, it is not uncommon that various shippers from both sides sometimes forget that the characters have flaws and tend to think of their shipped character as perfect, thus a 100% perfect match for the other character. We just tend to point out the characters faults a lot during the course of this thread. I can assure you that nobody here is trying to belittle any character, even though there are posts that tend to look that way, especially regarding the Ron character. The boy isn't flawless and has made some serious errors in the past, that's all.

Mad Eye Mike

July 31st, 2003, 8:51 pm

:tu: nice posts today everyone.

AvadaKedavra

July 31st, 2003, 8:58 pm

Hey I'm english too :D

Yes, Buckbeak, I got it the first time :)

While we're still on the topic, I would like to point out to people saying that my question is unfair, that my question was a hypothecial one. I think I am entitled to ask this, as it so nicely highlights some difficulties shadowing the H/Hr "coming together. "

It could end up this way, and Ron's feelings for Hermione pose a complication for H/Hr, especially if Harry is aware of them.

But for this situation to arise

(1) Hermione would have to declare her love for Harry, whereas previously her actions could be *easily translated* into platonic feelings.

(2) Harry would have to return this love, and this would be rather "sudden" as there has been no real developement of obvious feelings for Hermione at all.

(3) Ron would still have to like Hermione, and not be together with her.

Now, I was just merely pointing out a *huge difficulty and obstacle* for H/Hr, assuming Ron still has feelings for Hermione in future books. This means that if Ron still has feelings and H/Hr is to happen, H/Hr will have to overcome the BIGGEST OBSTACLE of them all.

And in my opinion, they won't.

This is of course, *assuming.

This is not a *R/Hr positive* post. I'm developing one, and for now, I'm content with nitpicking with *H/Hr negatives*. :D

Cheeky buggers Earendil and G.G about my Sig. Expect some Goblins to be knocking on your cabin door soon. :p

Signing out,

Avada

Sirius83

July 31st, 2003, 9:10 pm

As others have said, Ron's feelings should not be standing in the way. However, if you want a more detailed answer i'll give it to you. I think Ron's going to ask Hermione out and get shot down. I think he already suspects Hermione's feelings for Harry as well. I don't think Ron's feelings would stand in the way as he would be over it by book 7(although if my theories turn out true, he'll be in the middle of a fallout with H/Hr when book 7 starts).

What if he doesn't fess up? We have 2 possibilities. The first is Harry does not know of Ron's feelings and goes through with becoming a couple with Hermione. The second is that he is very much aware of Ron's feelings and does not become a couple with Hermione until the very end when things have a chance to work out.

Honestly, i think Ron follows the 3 book crush theory and will get trampled by that rampaging Hippogriff in book 6. Hermione will not hide her feelings for Harry forever. She is going to tell him because she will know he needs to know. Additionally, after knowing about Ron's feelings from since GOF, i do not think Hermione is going to just wait for forever for Ron to get over his crush so she can move on with her life.

So no, i don't see Ron's feelings as a stumbling block for H/Hr. I do however see the Hr->H trend as a huge stumbling block in the R/Hr possibility.

Hawk 92

July 31st, 2003, 9:16 pm

This is not a *R/Hr positive* post. I'm developing one, and for now, I'm content with nitpicking with *H/Hr negatives*.

Its a shame that you can't do it from text though. All of your negatives come from the I can't see it assumption. And the only person that I can't see it is valid for is JKR.

While we're still on the topic, I would like to point out to people saying that my question is unfair, that my question was a hypothecial one. I think I am entitled to ask this, as it so nicely highlights some difficulties shadowing the H/Hr "coming together. "

Because you can't see JKR writing a more mature Ron who cares enough about his friends that their happiness should be considered.

Cheeky buggers Earendil and G.G about my Sig. Expect some Goblins to be knocking on your cabin door soon.

I think that your sig represents HMS Heron quite well. The Yule Ball. It shows that Ron only cares for the glammed up Hermione and not the day to day Hermione. The one that is the true Hermione and that Ron is not loving her for who she is but what she looks like.

Now, I was just merely pointing out a *huge difficulty and obstacle* for H/Hr, assuming Ron still has feelings for Hermione in future books. This means that if Ron still has feelings and H/Hr is to happen, H/Hr will have to overcome the BIGGEST OBSTACLE of them all.

No its not the BIGGEST OBSTACLE of them all. First your obstacle has no basis in text. And to answer your earlier question, I think that if Harry has feelings for Hermione he will approach Ron and Ron will encourage him to go to Hermione. I can see a more mature Ron who is willing to put the happiness of others before his own. I cansee a Ron who puts Harry and Hermione before himself and is willing to make sacrifices for his friends. In short I'm willing to raise Ron to a level that you do not.

And because I can see the possibility of both H/Hr and Hr/R, for I believe that JKR is a great writer who could write the romances either way, I can approach the text objectively and look at what is written there. And base my theories and speculations on cannon (the books).

Cheers!

Buckbeak

July 31st, 2003, 9:25 pm

Hey I'm english too :D

Yes i should have known we English are the only ones who use the word 'buggers' as an insult for someone, its funny really cause iv never heard it being said without it sounding british. :wow:

Anyway on to my point, im glad we finely agree on something AK, seeing as i seem to be all on my lonesom shipping HMS Friends4eva i would like to say how differcult its been for me to agree with a R/Hr shipper, anyway, In my opinion Harry is knows full well that Ron likes Hermy, even though he hasn't speculated on it, so i only hope that he seriously thinks about his friendship with Ron before he gets into a relationship with Hermione.
Well iv completely forgotten what i was going to say (it is now 2 am so you can't really blame me) so i'll leave it there and post the rest when i remember.that is all.

crazyforharry

July 31st, 2003, 10:00 pm

harry and hermione all the way...i was always a firm believer in those two. after reading all the posts everyone has put on here, i am stronger in my beliefs. thanks to all the harmony's out there!!!

crazyforharry

July 31st, 2003, 10:04 pm

wow...did it show up?

GilyAnn

July 31st, 2003, 10:16 pm

Fairydust, I agree with Mega but with one additional clarification: Harry does describe Madame Rosmerta as "pretty", as he has likewise done in GoF for several other girls, including: Hermione, Parvati, Fleur, and Cho. There is nothing more in OoP to indicate that Ginny [or Luna, for that matter] is now to be included on this "list" of girls Harry finds pretty or attractive. There is nothing more to indicate that anyone else has "dropped off" the original list, either. It doesn't mean that Ginny [or Luna] isn't pretty or attractive by others' standards; however there is simply no statement by Harry to indicate that he thinks so.

Moreover, of all the persons on Harry's "list", only Hermione is near and dear to him. Only Hermione is a person he admires and respects highly, a best friend, and someone he thinks about and upon whose form he dwells start-to-end in OoP, whether awake or dreaming. Only Hermione's voice whispers to him inside. And nowhere across the series was there a description of any female to rival the GoF Yule Ball scene when Hermione makes her entrance (lengthy description of Hermione, and Harry's "jaw dropped").

That is:
-Ginny is not on the list [neither is Luna].
-Out of everyone on Harry's list, Hermione gets the most attention regarding descriptive detail in any particular setting and certainly the most emphasis: Harry's "jaw dropped" -- (and Hermione is not part Veela as with Fleur...so this is Harry's purely natural reaction to Hermione)
-Most importantly by far, out of everyone Harry does find pretty or attractive, there seems only one for whom Harry already cares deeply, respects deeply, and admires deeply, and thus IMO there is only one who could become much more to Harry: Hermione.

Off course I'm going to take Fairydust side on this one. Harry has given more flattering descriptions to Ginny than to the semi-goddess Cho. While Harry has never said flat out like many need that Ginny is pretty. His descriptions and adjectives says that he finds her likeable material. Also the use of constant flattering adjectives is also a way that authors use for the Love interest of the hero.

Hermione got the most description that evening because the she was the one that make the biggest impression. Everyone in the hall was open mouth with Hermione's appearance. She was transformed into a girl. Therefore she had to be the one that gotten the most descriptions. Problem is that Harry goes back again to describe her as usual the next day and the rest of the series. If the moment would have been foreshadowing for a H/Hr pair. Harry's attitude towards Hermione would have been different. Harry described EVERYONE at the Yule ball. Even Percy's robes got descriptions. Cho, Pavarti, almost every person got a description. Hermione had to get hers also. While he does find Hermione pretty the constant nice adjectives that he gives to Ginny may say that he may find her atractive and not aware of it. So he does check her out. Like Fairydust calls it.

In Oop most descriptions of Ginny were related to cats and most of them rather nice. Probably for the purpose of foreshadowing.

While speaking of King's Cross, it's also the place JKR had Hermione "do something she had never done before" and kiss Harry. The fact that it's the final closing scene of GOF that is supposed to be so important is also quite interesting since love seems like love will play a huge role in the ending.

Yes but Ginny is the first girl under the age of 30 that we have on the books. Also JKR's parents met at train pulling from King Cross Station. Her father manage to get a ticket by the 'skin of his teath' or something like that. Ginny is the girl who he watches run along the train.

BTW it is soooo clear to me that what happens is the return of Voldemort and all that come from that. I think it bears no chance of being a kiss that wasn't mention at all in this books. A kiss can't affect her over all plot. Look on Voldemort's return affects the return. There are a lot of plot lines completly unrelated to Romance that are important on the final scene. Why does the H/Hr ship make of HP a romance novel? Not everything is related to romance. Sometimes I think you guys are so eager that find romance where it simply doesn't exist and where I'm sure jkr didn't even think she put in romance. :frown:

Gily Ann

Edit:
Oh! I love it when the H/Hr ship get supporters. It means that the more 'obvious' it becomes the less is likely to happend. According to the rules of it!

Ecthelion

July 31st, 2003, 10:19 pm

harry and hermione all the way...i was always a firm believer in those two. after reading all the posts everyone has put on here, i am stronger in my beliefs. thanks to all the harmony's out there!!!

Ahh. Another convert :D :welcome: to the thread crazyforharry!

Remember though, try not to double post. The mod's don't like it :no: Just use the edit button located in the lower left of your post's box to add whatever you may need. Hope to see you here again!

AvadaKedavra

July 31st, 2003, 10:19 pm

Hawk

Thank you for voicing you opinion on my signature, even though it was wholly unasked for.

I see your point about Ron being more mature and willing to make sacrifices for his own friends, and I can also see this, Ron has matured a lot, but as I have said before, I am analysing this from a Harry point of view- WHAT would Harry do in this position, if it occured?

And you have answered my question- that Harry would consult Ron in your opinion.

In my opinion Harry would martyr himself- sacrifice his own feelings and turn Hermione down, without asking Ron if it is ok, because:

Ron is Harry's best friend, and he has liked Hermione for a long time. Harry would feel uneasy about consulting Ron and would find it hard on his conscience about "stepping in and snatching Hermione away" from Ron, especially when Ron in GoF, was very bitter and jealous of Harry for getting everything, when he, Ron hardly did.

Despite the more mature Ron (if this happens), Harry would still feel extremely torn about this, and extremely guilty, and choose to martyr himself.

Now, that's my take on things. Of course, if Ron's feelings for Hermione crumble away, as Sirius83 said, then this big obstacle would be gone.

This is purely hypothecial, I am assuming this and that, and asking how would this affect that, and pointing out that if this happens, there would be a big obstacle, regardless. (My personal opinion is that this will not happen, because I, of course, think R/Hr will happen, and this situation will never arise).

I'm very sorry but I will have to point out that you are wrong- you say all my "negatives" come from "I can't see it" assumption.

Well in this case you may be correct, but I have explained thoroughly why *I* think Harry will not consult Ron, martyr himself because of his care for Ron, as Harry's best friend, (as my exhaustive, canon based essay earlier pointed out that) his conscience, and previous events-i.e. GoF.

Neverthless, I admit that I may have bordered on the edge of the "and I can't see it, and therefore it can't be". Accept my apology for this.

However, if you look in the history of this thread, there are numerous instances of my rebuttals (in other words, negatives) to pro H/Hr, and those rebuttals have been based on canon.

I am willing to be civil, and even friendly, as it makes things SO MUCH easier, and the debates get along better.

BUT

And because I can see the possibility of both H/Hr and Hr/R, for I believe that JKR is a great writer who could write the romances either way, I can approach the text objectively and look at what is written there. And base my theories and speculations on cannon (the books).

Accept my sincerest apologies if I am wrong, but I take this "out of the blue" comment to also insinuate that I close my mind to only the possibility of R/Hr because I want it to happen, and base my theories and speculation on my "wants", and not canon. Now, I'd appreciate it if you said that out loud and clear, and not cleverly hidden in a seemingly innocent comment.

But as I said, if you really meant nothing by that, and it means what it means, and nothing else is insinuated, accept my sincerest apologies, and let's continue the debate.

Buckbeak glad you perceive things like I do. Surely can't we continue this good connection and allow me to invite you for a tour aboard the HMS Heron? :p

Signing out,

Avada

noddwyd

July 31st, 2003, 10:21 pm

Did what show up?
And please don't double post, if you want to add anything to a post, then use the edit button.

v@sh

July 31st, 2003, 10:31 pm

Originally posted by AK:

It could end up this way, and Ron's feelings for Hermione pose a complication for H/Hr, especially if Harry is aware of them.

But for this situation to arise

(1) Hermione would have to declare her love for Harry, whereas previously her actions could be *easily translated* into platonic feelings.

(2) Harry would have to return this love, and this would be rather "sudden" as there has been no real developement of obvious feelings for Hermione at all.

(3) Ron would still have to like Hermione, and not be together with her.

Your post is based on mostly assuming future events in the next two books. Firstly no-one exactly knows IF Harry's aware of Ron's feelings towards Hermione except JKR as we haven't been told by Harry that he is aware of Ron's feelings for Herm. If i'm wrong here it would be appreciated that someone give evidence from the book to point this out to me.

But I do agree with you that IF H/Hr were to get together Ron would pose a problem for the H/Hr pairing depending on how deep Ron's feelings for Hermione are. I do though, disagree that the list posted has to be happen since there is still 2 whole books to go and a lot can change in them two books. Particularly the last one where Ron would still have to like Hermione, and not be together with her.

Depending on Ron's depth of feelings for Hermione he might come to realise that Harry is indeed better for her than he is or he might be extremely angry/depressed so much so that the trio aern't on speaking terms with each other (these are just examples they don't have to exactly happen either). But by then the trio will be 16/17 in the last two books and would of matured greatly as well have a better knowledge of the opposite sex (well I hope so for Ron and Harry's sake) so things might play out quite differently to what any of us think. Like AK
and others I'm just merely speculating on the future because of what I percieve might/has to happen for the ship H/Hr or R/Hr to work. This is one of the reasons why most (not all) ship the ship that they do - opinions and preference.

Originally posted by AK:

In my opinion Harry would martyr himself- sacrifice his own feelings and turn Hermione down, without asking Ron if it is ok, because:

Ron is Harry's best friend, and he has liked Hermione for a long time. Harry would feel uneasy about consulting Ron and would find it hard on his conscience about "stepping in and snatching Hermione away" from Ron, especially when Ron in GoF, was very bitter and jealous of Harry for getting everything, when he, Ron hardly did.

Despite the more mature Ron (if this happens), Harry would still feel extremely torn about this, and extremely guilty, and choose to martyr himself.

Now, that's my take on things. Of course, if Ron's feelings for Hermione crumble away, as Sirius83 said, then this big obstacle would be gone.

This is purely hypothecial, I am assuming this and that, and asking how would this affect that, and pointing out that if this happens, there would be a big obstacle, regardless. (My personal opinion is that this will not happen, because I, of course, think R/Hr will happen, and this situation will never arise)

I partialarly (is that a word? haha) agree with you there. Harry being noble as he is could maybe sacrifice his own feelings and turn Hermione down, but I feel if this happens Hermione will be definately quite depressed and down if this happens since its my opinion that Hermione has feelings for Harry. IF this did happen Harry would be torn between between his head and his heart and the trio would be in disarray if this were to happen. Harry would be weird round Ron because his best friend has feelings for the same person he has, it wouldn't be normal to be 'normal' around each other. I don't think considering Harry's previous experiences with the opposite sex would know how to comfort Hermione or act around her after hes just turned her down which means he would be very alone cept for Ginny/Luna/Neville.

BabyMars

July 31st, 2003, 11:00 pm

Love your signature Mike. :lol:

Sirius83 has a really good post in the "What clues have been layed out for books 6 and 7" thread. I don't have a link, so you'll have to go find it. He explains very well on how the R/hr/h relationships may play out in the future. Oh, and he does use book eivdence to support it. Well done, Sirius. :)

Cheers (Where is my smooch?? :grumble:)

sone

July 31st, 2003, 11:02 pm

Harry and Hermione will not have Ron and Ginny as stumbling blocks, but nevertheless, we will see them both go red out of anger.

Hawk 92

July 31st, 2003, 11:02 pm

AK

I see your point about Ron being more mature and willing to make sacrifices for his own friends, and I can also see this, Ron has matured a lot, but as I have said before, I am analysing this from a Harry point of view- WHAT would Harry do in this position, if it occured?

Omission: Hermione's feelings.

In my opinion Harry would martyr himself- sacrifice his own feelings and turn Hermione down, without asking Ron if it is ok, because:

Again no say for Hermione about how she feels.

Ron is Harry's best friend, and he has liked Hermione for a long time. Harry would feel uneasy about consulting Ron and would find it hard on his conscience about "stepping in and snatching Hermione away" from Ron, especially when Ron in GoF, was very bitter and jealous of Harry for getting everything, when he, Ron hardly did.

Text that Ron has liked Hermione for a long time. Besides didn't you say that they were both unsure of their feelings. But once again, Why is Hermione's feelings not important?

Despite the more mature Ron (if this happens), Harry would still feel extremely torn about this, and extremely guilty, and choose to martyr himself.

Doesn't Hermione's feelings count at all?

I'm very sorry but I will have to point out that you are wrong- you say all my "negatives" come from "I can't see it" assumption.

My apologies as well. I misinterpeted.

Well in this case you may be correct, but I have explained thoroughly why *I* think Harry will not consult Ron, martyr himself because of his care for Ron, as Harry's best friend, (as my exhaustive, canon based essay earlier pointed out that) his conscience, and previous events-i.e. GoF.

I disputed that essay with text. But the whole problem is still that Hermione's feelings are being left out in this theory.

Neverthless, I admit that I may have bordered on the edge of the "and I can't see it, and therefore it can't be". Accept my apology for this.

This is a debate forum. I do not take anything in here personal. We are here to provide arguements and counter arguements. No apologies necessary. We are not being snipy after all but providing arguements for our respective ships.

However, if you look in the history of this thread, there are numerous instances of my rebuttals (in other words, negatives) to pro H/Hr, and those rebuttals have been based on canon.

I do believe that I have offered rebuttals to these. In short I have given your arguements complete validity and have approached them as accurate and then given counter arguements based on cannon.

Accept my sincerest apologies if I am wrong, but I take this "out of the blue" comment to also insinuate that I close my mind to only the possibility of R/Hr because I want it to happen, and base my theories and speculation on my "wants", and not canon. Now, I'd appreciate it if you said that out loud and clear, and not cleverly hidden in a seemingly innocent comment.

Now lets look at my own quote:

And because I can see the possibility of both H/Hr and Hr/R, for I believe that JKR is a great writer who could write the romances either way, I can approach the text objectively and look at what is written there. And base my theories and speculations on cannon (the books).

Please notice the word I. I was speaking about myself and showing how I approached this. In short I was justifying my stance. Once again please note that I was speaking about myself.

Now AK I will try to make myself clear,

This is how I feel about the ships,

It does matter what and how Hermione feels. Hermione has as much in this as Ron and Harry. Harry and Ron sitting around deciding Hermione's future is just not acceptable to me. Now I should make myself clear here. I think that if JKR writes H/Hr we will see a resolution to your many questions but it will involve all 3 of them and how they all feel. I do not see Harry and Ron discussing Hermione's future without Hermione and her imput and I don't see Hermione going along with that at all. Now please note that I am just offering my thoughts here. So that we don't have anymore misunderstandings.

Cheers!

noddwyd

July 31st, 2003, 11:03 pm

Despite the more mature Ron (if this happens), Harry would still feel extremely torn about this, and extremely guilty, and choose to martyr himself.

Yes, but even if that does occur, the truth will come out eventually, especially if Hermione doesn't have those type of feelings for Ron. And if Hermione confronts Harry about it, then I'm not so sure he'd be able to lie, or if he tried then she'd see right through it.
Interesting scenario, by the way. Currently, I am at a loss as to how this would actually play out.

But let's reverse this. Do you think Ron would do the same thing in this position? I'm not so sure, myself.

Hawk 92

July 31st, 2003, 11:10 pm

BabyMars

July 31st, 2003, 11:16 pm

Here ya go Mars

*Hawk plants a big :smooch: on Mars*

Hmm Oreos again??

:lol:

Cheers!

Thanks 00Hawk :blush:

Cheers to you! :D

Sarmi

July 31st, 2003, 11:19 pm

Great post guys!!!! :clap: :clap: :clap:

In my opinion Harry would martyr himself- sacrifice his own feelings and turn Hermione down, without asking Ron if it is ok, because:

Ron is Harry's best friend, and he has liked Hermione for a long time. Harry would feel uneasy about consulting Ron and would find it hard on his conscience about "stepping in and snatching Hermione away" from Ron, especially when Ron in GoF, was very bitter and jealous of Harry for getting everything, when he, Ron hardly did.

Despite the more mature Ron (if this happens), Harry would still feel extremely torn about this, and extremely guilty, and choose to martyr himself.

Ya know, as honorable as Ron & Harry trying to decide how to go about winning Hermione's heart and/or Harry stepping back, there is one problem with this theory.

What about Hermione's feelings?

It doesn't just come down to Harry or Ron's feelings, it's all three of them!

Sarmi

BabyMars

July 31st, 2003, 11:22 pm

Great post guys!!!! :clap: :clap: :clap:

Ya know, as honorable as Ron & Harry trying to decide how to go about winning Hermione's heart and/or Harry stepping back, there is one problem with this theory.

What about Hermione's feelings?

It doesn't just come down to Harry or Ron's feelings, it's all three of them!

Sarmi

Agreed Sarmi. It is between all three of them. Why is it that Hermione's feelings always seem to be left out of the picture?

Mad Eye Mike

July 31st, 2003, 11:23 pm

Exactly Sarmi. Hermione's feelings do seem to get overlooked when discussion the trio. Anyone ever consider that Hermione may not want to date Ron? There's certainly lots of text evidence to back this up.

Kalie

July 31st, 2003, 11:26 pm

Yes exactly, Mike. I think it's because of the fact that there is evidence to support that Hermione may not like Ron more than a friend is one of the reasons perhaps other people leave her feelings out. *looks at post* Did that make sense? :shrug:

v@sh

July 31st, 2003, 11:27 pm

Yep agrees with Sarmi there as well. Hermione would be devastated if she was turned down by Harry and I don't think JKR would do that, would she?

sone

July 31st, 2003, 11:28 pm

Well it seems sad to me because when I first read the book, I thought Ron looked at Hermione like some kinda trophy for him to mount in his room.

diam0ndgrrl

July 31st, 2003, 11:51 pm

Hi everyone! This is my first post at COS... so be gentle! I frequent other forums as well, and decided to give this place a try!

I'll just start small, and say that I agree with the "what about Hermione's feelings." I sometimes think, because she's the only girl Ron seems to be close with that's *not* a Weasley, Ron has developed an attachment to her. He may grow up and out of his crush later on. We never know...

Also, it's become apparant in OotP that Hermione is no dunce when it comes to boys. She seems to know what's going on with Ron's feelings and such. Now, she's had plenty of opportunities to give him a little push with things... but hasn't really done too much to really let him know that she returns his feelings. I can't see her character waiting patiently throughout all 7 books, and at the ending when Ron realizes it go, "Oh, Ron I've loved you for 7 years.. it's about time you realized it!"

So, yeah.. sorry if I've repeated old topics, (which I probably have) but I really didn't know where to start.

Hawk 92

August 1st, 2003, 12:08 am

:welcome: diam0ndgrrl to COS forums. Hope you enjoy it here.

Don't worry as most of us who live in the love thread understand that there is a lot of material to read and we often go over the same things.

If you are interested there is a HMS Harmony (H/HR) file in BabyMars signature. A little long I'll admit, but well worth the time.

Once again enjoy COS.

Cheers!

Mad Eye Mike

August 1st, 2003, 12:22 am

:welcome: to the forum diam0ndgrrl.

The_5th_Marauder

August 1st, 2003, 12:25 am

My predictions, though undoubtly probably made before :) are:

Harry/Luna
Ron/Hermione
Neville/Ginny
and Cho.. will be out of the picture.

sone

August 1st, 2003, 12:28 am

I still do not see how Luna wants Harry when she is singing "Weasley is our king".

Kalie

August 1st, 2003, 12:32 am

And I don't see Harry/Luna half as much as I see Ron/Luna. Although, manys shippers are writing off the pair of R/Lu simply because of Ron's "thing" for Hermione. Well, if that's the case, then we can write off Harry/Ginny, because Harry had a "thing" for Cho. Look at all the possibilities. Sure, I was getting worried about H/Lu near the end, but it's quite obvious that Luna likes Ron just as it is obvious that Ron likes Hermione. You can't ignore that.

Sarmi

August 1st, 2003, 12:33 am

I still do not see how Luna wants Harry when she is signing "Weasley is our king".

I agree, Luna was blatantly attracted to Ron, she just couldn't keep her eyes off of him! :eyebrows:

BTW - :welcome: diam0ndgrrl to the Love Thread! Don't worry about repeating old topics, it happens all the time!

Sarmi

*desperately trying to get to her 200th post* :D

BabyMars

August 1st, 2003, 12:41 am

:welcome: Diam0ndGrrl! I have this wonderful H/hr file in my signature if you are interested in reading it. It doesn't cover ootp, having been written prior to. Hopefully, there will be an edition added on to it! Happy posting!

Cheers *smooch* <---- that'll have to do for now....

diam0ndgrrl

August 1st, 2003, 12:59 am

Thanks BabyMars! And everyone else for welcoming me! I already have that file though lol, I'm a *very* avid H/Hr shipper.

And about Harry/Luna, the only thing between them really is shared death experience, and that doesn't seem too romantic to me. I found plenty of canon hints to suggest a crush on Luna's part towards Ron. Plus she calls him "Ronald," which is just the cutest thing! :angel:\

Hey Kalie! Yes.. I'm starting to get a little worried about it. Hopefully this will tie me over! FA is too snarky.

Kalie

August 1st, 2003, 1:02 am

Hey diam0ndgrrl ! Portkey down again, huh? *hehe* I just started coming here too!

sone

August 1st, 2003, 1:15 am

I agree diam0ndgrrl. I mean really. They share in common that they have both seen someone important to them die. Lovely but is not a romance. People use Voldemort to romantically connect Ginny with Harry. We can do better than that. I'm not sure if I said it here but I am going to say it anyway. Harry gets the kisses, the hugs and the true affection from Hermione without the bite. Ron very much more often than not, gets the bite.

Grace Granger

August 1st, 2003, 1:17 am

Well fellow portkeyers! diam0nd, I recognize you, but kalie I don't. Still that doesn't matter we're all family here. :welcome:

Could I interest you in signing up for HMS Harmony MI6 Division, by chance? :D

Mad Eye Mike

August 1st, 2003, 1:23 am

Excuse me Grace, but as of now the MI6 division is under investigation and recruitment has been frozen until we can sort out what's going on. :agree:

Sarmi

August 1st, 2003, 1:24 am

Oh Grace.........

I love your sig picture!!!!!

HMS Roony Forever!!!!!! :clap:

Sarmi

Grace Granger

August 1st, 2003, 1:27 am

Excuse me Grace, but as of now the MI6 division is under investigation and recruitment has been frozen until we can sort out what's going on. :agree:

Hey, whatever my boss, 00Hawk, did is between you and him. I have nothing to do with it. I'm an innocent bystander.

EDIT: Thanks Sarmi. Did you notice MEM's? We did the same thing!

BabyMars

August 1st, 2003, 1:28 am

Oh Grace.........

I love your sig picture!!!!!

HMS Roony Forever!!!!!! :clap:

Sarmi

I do too grace! LOVE IT! :rotfl:

I've just been informed that the MI6 Division has been temporarily shut down (good going Hawk). Can I still play with all the cool doo-dads??

Cheers (man, they took away the :bite: smily too...How can I be a shark without my bite smily!?!?!:upset: )

sone

August 1st, 2003, 1:41 am

To bring this thread just a little bit back on track, does anybody finds Harry and Hermione's behavior a little "cold" (I cannot find the words for it) towards Ron winning the cup? I mean granted they have come back after a rather miserable experience with Grawp and the Centaurs. However, they find out that Ron had the game of his life and surprisingly he is holding the Quidditch Cup being the only player carried by the crowd.

Rather than celebrate with him, they just go upstairs together. I mean WTF? Sometimes I wonder if Harry and Hermione would even miss Ron if he just disappeared off the face of the earth.

Mad Eye Mike

August 1st, 2003, 1:41 am

No you don't get to play with all the doo-dads Babymars. All gadgets and equipment have been confiscated until further notice.

Btw, not one person answered my question before (and to get back on topic)

Assuming everyone survives, who would you like to see Neville hook up with? Ginny, Luna or Hermione?

sone

August 1st, 2003, 1:46 am

Ginny, to be honest Mike. Gives a bit more proper attention to her than Harry does.

Fairydust

August 1st, 2003, 1:47 am

I would like to se Neville hook up with Luna! I think they'd be such a cool couple because they're totally opposites. Luna'd be the one that was all far out and everything and Neville could be the stable one. :agree:

Grace Granger

August 1st, 2003, 1:47 am

I say Neville should get with Ginny. They both seem so fragile, but have this strength that everyone underestimates.

Mad Eye Mike

August 1st, 2003, 1:49 am

I like Ginny for Neville as well. I mean, she is the only available option anyway.

Arissya_00

August 1st, 2003, 1:51 am

No, there is still Luna. I like the idea of Neville and Luna together, because I feel they have some things in common. Ginny, I think, is destined for Harry, there is just too much clues.

Kalie

August 1st, 2003, 1:53 am

I think it should be Neville/Ginny personally. I saw a lot of hints leaning towards that in OotP. When Neville said to Luna, "I'm nobody," Ginny sharply said, "Oh, no you're not!" Not to mention, that he tried to beat someone for trying to take Ginny. They are also overshadowed by others. Ginny, the youngest and only girl in the family( besides Molly ). Also, I seriously doubt that she'll be able to take Hermione's place in terms of friendship. It's possibility, but I doubt it. And Neville, who is not very bright( as opposed to Hermione who is very smart )and pales in comparrison to his famous roommate. I think there is a lot of common ground there.

Grace Granger

August 1st, 2003, 1:54 am

I like Ginny for Neville as well. I mean, she is the only available option anyway.

All I can do is :rotfl: I think this is the funniest post we've had here! :rotfl:

Fairydust

August 1st, 2003, 1:54 am

No, there is still Luna. I like the idea of Neville and Luna together, because I feel they have some things in common. Ginny, I think, is destined for Harry, there is just too much clues.

i believe that also. Ron is for Hermione and Harry is for Ginny. and on the train, i just thought that something could and should happen with Neville and Luna. I mean, Ginny's his friend and that's all i'm getting from them: friends. R/H, H/G, and N/L. :agree:

VeelaGirl

August 1st, 2003, 1:59 am

Neville and Ginny. Although it falls under the nasty theme of unrequited love in these books.

Fairydust

August 1st, 2003, 2:06 am

Neville and Ginny have that 'you're like one of my best friends and i'll do anything to help you out' thing going for them. imho. i don't see anything but very pure friendship.

Kalie

August 1st, 2003, 2:09 am

If you're SO sure about Neville/Luna, then I'd like to hear some evidence. Please, I really do. And good SOLID points too, not opinions. Thanks!

Hawk 92

August 1st, 2003, 2:10 am

Excuse me Grace, but as of now the MI6 division is under investigation and recruitment has been frozen until we can sort out what's going on.

Sorry there MEM but only the Captain can order an investigation or freeze recruitment. Once again I must wonder about your seriously overstepping your bounds. Perhaps I could suggest that you read your HMS Harmony manuel and stop listening to BYE BYE BYE all the time. Mike is a huge NSYNC fan. :elaugh:

Now back on topic,

Where does this Neville/Luna thing come from? Seriously. I mean great to speculate but what are we speculating on here?

Ron/Luna I see and I did see a chance of Harry/Luna with a moment or two. But I didn't see any Neville/Luna.

SIGNS is still the way to go. Ginny/Neville. There are a couple of moments here for this ship.

No you don't get to play with all the doo-dads Babymars.

Easy there Mike. A big technical word like doo-dads must have taken you a while.

Cheers!

BabyMars

August 1st, 2003, 2:14 am

SIGNS is still the way to go. Ginny/Neville. There are a couple of moments here for this ship.

Easy there Mike. A big technical word like doo-dads must have taken you a while.

Cheers!

LOL @ 00Hawk!

There are a couple of moments for the Neville/Ginny ship. It also has a couple more moments than the Harry/Ginny ship if I'm not mistaken. Anyone care to write a comparative essay??

Cheers *smooch*

GryffindorGal

August 1st, 2003, 2:18 am

I say Neville should get with Ginny. They both seem so fragile, but have this strength that everyone underestimates.

OH I Agree with this. I think that Ginny has somethign that Neville needs. She's a bit brash. She defends him. He's more timid but I think would treat her like a queen. And he was looking out for her as well.

Turambar

August 1st, 2003, 2:23 am

Posted by Evaluna:
Moreover, of all the persons on Harry's "list", only Hermione is near and dear to him. Only Hermione is a person he admires and respects highly, a best friend, and someone he thinks about and upon whose form he dwells start-to-end in OoP, whether awake or dreaming. Only Hermione's voice whispers to him inside. And nowhere across the series was there a description of any female to rival the GoF Yule Ball scene when Hermione makes her entrance (lengthy description of Hermione, and Harry's "jaw dropped").
xxxxxx
Just to add to your observation Evaluna but Hermione is also notably the girl Harry understands.
A lot is made in OOTP of him being clueless about Cho, what she's thinking, what she's meaning.
But Harry knows Hermione better than anyone else including Ginny, apparently her female best friend, and Ron her other male best friend.
There are three scenes:
1) Harry's scar hurting at 12 Grimmauld Pl
2) Malfoy's "dogging" comment
3) When Hermione is trying to trick Umbridge
which clearly show H/Hr understanding each other while Ron and Ginny are present but clueless as to what H/Hr are thinking.

Sirius83

August 1st, 2003, 2:28 am

For Neville? Ginny. They really seem to get along well and are both underestimated. I think they would make a good couple and would really look out for each other.

noddwyd

August 1st, 2003, 2:32 am

Ginny, actually. Oh, and ot, but I think the reason Neville's gotten better at everything this year, is due to that plant he's got. the mimbulus mimblutonia, which is latin for "immitation of something praiseworthy" or something to that effect. I think the stinksap can be used in some kind of confidence or courage boosting potion, or something.

Turambar

August 1st, 2003, 2:50 am

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Excuse me Grace, but as of now the MI6 division is under investigation and recruitment has been frozen until we can sort out what's going on.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry there MEM but only the Captain can order an investigation or freeze recruitment. Once again I must wonder about your seriously overstepping your bounds.
xxxxxxxx

:lol: Look, we're not having any unseemly brawling in public between rival officers on the HMS Harmony. It's either a night in the brig for both of you or a duel, cutlasses at the ready. What's it going to be?

EvilRaven

August 1st, 2003, 4:36 am

So ...is this a thread to debate of the H/Hr and R/hr ships?

Cos I'm wondering if Cos forums has a board for ship threads. :D

Kalie

August 1st, 2003, 5:06 am

Well, you can discuss almost any ship, I believe. Although, I'm not completely sure.

Mad Eye Mike

August 1st, 2003, 5:08 am

:welcome: to the thread evilraven.

In here we do debate the romances in the books - H/Hr, R/Hr, H/G, R/L, etc. We present our cases with text evidence (well some do) and we seriously discuss the characters and any possible romance they may become involved in. Please stick around the thread and enjoy.

Kalie - 'Slash' ships are not allowed here just so you know.

Moving on...

I see many people said Luna should be with Neville but I just don't see how that's a realistic pairing. Oh I know many of you want N/L to hook up so it'll pave the way clear for a H/G and R/Hr pairing. However, taking into account canon, Luna showed absolutely no interest in Neville whatsoever. She was clearly fixated on Ron and Ron alone. She is the first girl in the books (besides Ginny obviously) to pay more attention to Ron than Harry. And of course I meant a teen girl, not someone like McGonagall or anything stupid like that.

Turambar - You're right of course. As such, I've decided to start my own division on the HMS Harmony - The Aurors. This group of highly trained debaters are the creme of the crop on the Harmony and have the opportunity to move on up to Unspeakable status. :agree:

Anyone H/Hr shipper interested in joining The Aurors please say so. :p

Kalie

August 1st, 2003, 5:12 am

Thanks for the clarification, Mike! Slash ships really didn't even cross my mind in the first place :shrug: Ah well.

FlyingPhoenix

August 1st, 2003, 5:20 am

Originally Posted by FlyingPhoenix
Not only Ron did react everytime another Weasley was around they act just the same. In COS was it the Twins, in OotP Ginny.
By the Way Harry didn't know what it means in COS like Hermione.

[...] etc etc [...]

Nice post Mutant though I had to disagree
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Flying Phoenix , I'm sorry to sound rude but your post seemed to me something like: "Ron has no merit whatsoever in anything he does. In fact he sucks and this is why he will never end up with Hermione. She must end up with the Hero of the series"

I just did tell facts its in canon so I don't understand why this is rude. I didn't even say that Ron was already mad at Malfoy and he could have said anything that Ron get after him. I can't say things which aren't in canon and in canon is that the twins react in COS with Ron and in OoTP Is it Ginny who act with, she do it actuelly two times.

On the train Harry find his very first friend. To be honest it wasn't difficult to become friend with Ron.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You are implying that Hermione became friends with Harry on the train.

On the train Harry find his very first friend. To be honest it wasn't difficult to become friend with Ron. Thats what I think is very interest this fact. Harry saw the very first Time how a family works. He never saw it like that by the Dursleys was to much and more played as to be real. But here it was again perfect, this family was again everything Harry did want but will never have. For sure Harry wished at this very moment he had red hairs and be a part of this family. At this moment Harry has to know he don't has a family and will not have something like that.The interst part comes now to play as Hermione steps into Harrys live. Why is that interst? Because its wasn't easy to become friend with. To be exactly it needed a 12 feet high trol to get her as his friend.
That is what I did write there is no where written that I write exclusive about Hermione. But I wrote that Ron was directly as he steps into Harrys compartment become friend with him and thats an much easier was as to run one month in the school around with a nagging and annoying girl on your heels which turns after you and your best friend knocked a 12 feet tall trol out to be your second best friend.
To clear it up I didn't mean that Hermione was Harrys first friend and I didn't wrote it like that for me is it clear that we all know that on the train Harry became friend with Ron. But if this help I promise I will from now one write clear that Ron was at first.

Mad Eye Mike

August 1st, 2003, 6:12 am

Hawk 92

August 1st, 2003, 6:58 am

I just want to touch on something FlyingPhoenix brought up before and that's how Hermione reacted to Ron's Christmas gift. If she is so in love with Ron like some r/hr shippers say, this would've been a perfect time to show him. Yet, she's much more happy by Harry's gift. Now why if JKR is setting up r/hr didn't she have Hermione at least show Ron some gratitude?

The Aurors would like to welcome our first member - FlyingPhoenix.

It begins....

Nope. It ends.
1) FlyingPhoenix is already a member of the 00 Division. I suggest that MEM look at the list of members that is posted earlier.
2) I've been considering going rogue for a while now. I'm missing the old days of non shipper status. ;)

Cheers!

Turambar

August 1st, 2003, 7:00 am

Don't tell me 00Hawk whimped out, Mike. :D So what are the Aurors: the Harmony equivalent of navy SEALS? :cool:

EDIT: sorry Hawk didn't realise you were back on duty. :blush:

Mad Eye Mike

August 1st, 2003, 7:13 am

Nope. It ends.
1) FlyingPhoenix is already a member of the 00 Division. I suggest that MEM look at the list of members that is posted earlier.
2) I've been considering going rogue for a while now. I'm missing the old days of non shipper status. ;)

Cheers!

Hawk - I suggest you take a look at FP's location. ;)

Turambar - Unfortunately that info is classified to members only. :p

Btw Turambar, who do you think Neville should wind up with?

Turambar

August 1st, 2003, 7:19 am

I see so you're both going rogue on me. :no:

Well Neville is interesting because his personality is developing, he's becoming more confident. It could be that a more confident Neville could be good with Ginny. I think her comment to him when he put himself down on the train, something like "I'm nobody" was interesting.

Buckbeak

August 1st, 2003, 7:21 am

I think Neville would be best suited with Ginny, i think they could be the relationship that is in the background of the series but is the strongest and will last the longest, iv never really put much thought into it, but now i think that they should happen.

Oh and Neville and Luna, i see nothing there, i think Hermione showed more interest in Luna than Neville did, and we all know Hermione didn't really like Luna.
No Luna's for Ron.

P.S What are you all talking about 00 division? whats that? or is that clasified information?

Mad Eye Mike

August 1st, 2003, 7:24 am

Turambar - Me go rogue? Never. You'll always be welcomed in the Aurors.

I do think that in subtle ways, JKR laid the foundation for a Neville/Ginny pairing.

:rotfl: @ Buckbeat's confusion.

vagos

August 1st, 2003, 7:30 am

im pretty sure luna liked ron(well it was kind of obvious,wasnt it?),and after ootp i changed ships.from ron+hermione,im now ron+luna.

Turambar

August 1st, 2003, 7:41 am

JKR certainly wrote them both showing concern and interest in each other. That moment I mentioned before and when Neville was caught outside Umbridge's office. He wasn't trying to help Ron - his friend, classmate, dorm mate - but Ginny.

vagos

August 1st, 2003, 7:45 am

neville probably likes ginny,but i dont think ginny likes him...

PrettyVeela

August 1st, 2003, 7:53 am

Ron and Hermione are meant to be

sone

August 1st, 2003, 8:21 am

Ron still likes Hermione and Ginny still likes Harry. However Harry and Hermione do not return the feelings to them but rather to each other. R/Hr and H/G are right now one sided relationships.

EDIT: (Just wanted to add something) You know what I also noticed? Harry and Hermione are really starting to take each other under their care. Harry is so much quicker to protect Hermione (and only Hermione I might add) nowadays. Like when Hermione ran into Hagrid and nearly fell to the ground Harry catches her. When Grawp tries to grab her twice, the first time Harry seizes Hermione immediately and pulls her behind the tree. The second time, Harry without a wand was ready to do anything to stop Grawp from reaching Hermione. As soon as the Centaurs attack Grawp, Harry runs to pick up Hermione and get them out of there. In the DoM, Harry pulls her down and protects from the shattering orbs and other falling debris.

With Hermione, she takes on the role of talking Harry and being able calm him down. She starts giving him girl advice, she gives Harry a chance to tell the public the truth taking out her own personal time (on Valentine's Day no less, kinda symbolic thinking what happened with Cho and then he turns around to see Hermione at their noon meeting) and calling in a few favors from she does not really like all that much. She sets up and organizes the DA (personally I think she did it more for him as much as herself and other people). When Umbridge is going use the Cruciatus Curse on Harry, Hermione immediately tries to protect him. First letting two rather interesting (but not surprising) exclaimations and then a very shrewd (considering how much time she had to work with) plan that was supposed to kill Umbridge.

The comfort they take in holding each other is becoming quite alarming. Hermione shrieks even louder than Pigwidgeon when she first sees him and nearly tackles him to the ground in a hug, she doesn't even let go of him for a bit, talking breathlessly and beaming at him all the same. Harry of course does not mind this at all. It is not at all weird to me that after Hermione lets go of Harry and Ron starts talking Harry starts going cold at the pair of them.

There is much more of course as has been stated on this very long thread but they are so comfortable around each other is the point. Harry and Hermione do not always let people in, but when it comes to each other, then let themselves in more than anyone else. There has been plenty of evidence that says why Harry needs Hermione but there is still the question of why Hermione needs Harry. For me it is because Hermione's experience at Hogwarts would be thoroughly miserable if it was not for Harry. Harry was the first one to think about what danger Hermione was in when the Troll was in the school and he was quick to protect her when it look like the Troll was going to kill her. Ron was rude to Hermione but he was right, Hermione didn't have any friends and she certainly would of never been friends with Ron if not for Harry. Do you notice how nerve racked Hermione is at the thought of Harry getting kicked out of school? Hermione thinks of and worries about Harry all the time. I thought it was just often but after OOTP it has become evident to me that Hermione has Harry on the brain at least every 30 seconds of everyday. Even when he was thinking of talking to Sirius, Hermione nearly went nuts but all the same she almost begged and pleaded Harry not to do it, she even for the very first time did not pay any attention to Professor Binns to try and talk him out of it.

I also think that in the dark times ahead, Hermione truly looks to Harry to protect her not out just who he is but out of love. I say that because Hermione is not some timid girl but when she is vulnerable, she only lets Harry know how much so, depending on how hard she grabs his arm. No matter how bad things have gotten in the book, Harry has never failed to look after Hermione and it is not surprising to see that everytime she is vulnerable she moves to Harry and not anyone else.

Mega

August 1st, 2003, 8:22 am

Harry / Hermione
Ron / Luna
Neville / Ginny

Also what the hell is the HMS Harmony MI6 Division?

Mad Eye Mike

August 1st, 2003, 8:45 am

sone - I agree completely. Relationships are two way streets and H/G, R/Hr are horribly one-sided. Even Hr/K was one-sided as Krum basically felt more for Hermione then she did for him. I think she was certainly flattered by his attention, but to visit him in Bulgaria? To be the thing he'd miss most in ALL the world? Him never having felt that way about anyone before? Good lord was Krum a pathetic character. I think Hermione was drawn to him in a small way since he was the first boy to ever show interest in her, but I don't think it was anything more than friendship and has since remained that way.

Here's another: Right now, Harry doesn't return Hermione's feelings consciously. So her feelings for him go one way as well. Poor thick-headed sap, if he'd just explore his feelings a bit, he'd see what she already means to him.

Mega - Don't concern yourself with MI6. There's a new division named The Aurors and you're welcomed to join us if you like. :agree:

FlyingPhoenix

August 1st, 2003, 8:45 am

I do think that Ginny do like Neville. Alone her reaction in the train and she did go with him to the ball. I mean if she isn't interest in him she wouldn't go with him because the whole school knows what a clumsy person he is. Its rather interest for me that in GoF Ginny who had a long lived crush on Harry don't wait that he ask her and gos with to this time rather surprising clumsy unimportant Neville to the ball. Its true that she stopped to smile as she get Harry is still without a date but she react annoyed as Ron starts to laugh about Neville and the fact that nobody would go out with him. This is interest that at the point as she get that if she wait for Harry that this might be wasted time and than she lose the chance because of that, because she go with Neville. Maybe she is even thankfuly that he did open her eyes indirect because she did go with Neville.
Now in OotP we get that Neville is more as just the clumsy guy. He is in truth like a shadow of Harry. In this view looks it slightly different that JKR did choice him to go with Ginny to the ball. It could been everybody from Colin till Seamus but no JKR choice Neville the other one who could have been the-boy-who-lived.
JKR do or did create an interest connection between Neville and Ginny. To this come that since the Yule Ball Ginny is changing, is changing to her normal self and Neville is in OotP changing into something more as a nearlly squib. So both are changing in the direction of the other one. I really doubt JKR did let change or wake Ginny up because of Harry its because of Neville.

The Grim

August 1st, 2003, 9:20 am

Hey all, I know this is from a few pages back but I am quite fed up with R/Hr shippers making this point:

I think the fact that Hermione and Ron's fight was so much more explosive than fights between Hermione and Harry shows that there is more passion between Hermione and Ron.

Seems to me that this means more explosive fights equates to more passion between the two members; does this imply Ron/Draco? :D
Their fights certainly seem more explosive than any others I've seen in the series.

Also, passion doesn't always imply love; ever heard of someone hating something with a passion.

About Ron defending Hermione for the 'Mudblood' comment:
Think some ppl have already mentioned this but the situation is that Harry simply doesn't comprehend what the word implies. An example of this would be someone with a sheltered upbringing facing a racist person for the first time. They simple would not know that the word means.

Another point is that Ron simply wears his heart on his sleeve as mentioned many times. He ALWAYS defends his friends whenever someone looks down on them (aside from when Ron and Harry had their argument in GoF).
Don't have my books with me but in OoP at the DA meeting at Hog's Head, Ron (along with the Twins) defends Harry against Zachariah Smith several times.

Hawk 92

August 1st, 2003, 9:31 am

Ouch, FlyingPhoenix.

To: Captain, HMS Harmony
From: Hawk 92

Captain,

Effective immediately I am resigning my 00 post and my commission with the HMS Harmony. I had hoped that my service record onboard the HMS Harmony would clear both myself and my department. As this is not the case I am hereby submitting my resignation.

I would like to recommend BabyMars as the new head of the MI6 division.

After you receive this letter I shall depart the HMS Harmony and return to the HMS Hawknest.

I have enjoyed my time aboard the HMS Harmony and wish her and her crew the best of luck and God’s speed.

Hawk 92

*Hawk departs the HMS Harmony and boards the HMS Hawknest*

Cheers!

FlyingPhoenix

August 1st, 2003, 9:40 am

Someone I guess it was AK did ask will Harry move if he has feelings for Hermione and know at the same time Ron has some, too?

I'm not even sure if Harry do know that Ron has feelings for Hermione. Because honestly through the whole OotP book was never, I really think never where Harry get a thought that Ron might have a crush at Hermione. For sure if my best friend is interest in my other best friend I did mention that even It was only to myself. But Harry just don't do it. Its for me very possible that he don't know it and that mean if Harry realise he has feelings for Hermione he might indeed act even Ron has still a crush at her.
Or even he don't act this don't need even to happen because there have to be only some more suspicouse moments between Harry and Hermione. I mean with this that Harry or Herrmione don't need to act after there feelings because alone by moments just let say strange looking at each other or suddenly speaking different. I mean you full in track to speak about a topic and than you look at someone and you slow down with your speach in that case Ron would get very suspicious and even start to ask what is or something like that.
If there really feelings going to development I'm more as sure it comes so or so out. Especially if both share this feelings something what I didn't saw by R/Hr. Hermione did never go nervous if she looked at Ron or as he yelled at her. She was never shocked and gos a atep back. No signs that Ron do reach her and distract her doing something what a crush just look at COS and Ginny butter acident really can do.

There is just nothing in that line. If I did read such signs I swear I didn't ship H/Hr but there aren't signs. Its like so many R/Hr say about H/Hr just no interest there, not in the slightest way.

Hawk I'm sorry but Mike had his way you know and as a girl I'm weak like nothing. :upset:

sPtProphecy1

August 1st, 2003, 10:03 am

so does this mean its over for Harry and Cho? After all the hype and romance in book five the trip stops here??

Ecthelion

August 1st, 2003, 10:26 am

so does this mean its over for Harry and Cho? After all the hype and romance in book five the trip stops here??

Yes, sPtProphecy, I believe it does. When Harry looked at Cho at the end of the train and didn't flinch or have that "tumbling in the tummy" type thing it symbolized that he's over with her. And I think Cho knows it as well.

By the way, GPE everyone and I love the sig's :D Go Roony!

Edit: Hawk, I'm sorry to see you go like this, dramatic as always. Good luck on the HMS Hawknest. :tu:

*turns around non-chalantly and eagerly steps onto the The Aurors training deck aboard the HMS Harmony*

Grace Granger

August 1st, 2003, 11:06 am

Earendil

August 1st, 2003, 11:23 am

Well, I'm backtracking here quite a bit to answer AK's's question (better late than never).

Originally posted by AvadaKedavra
I think Harry knows of Ron's feelings for Hermione. Let's assume that Hermione makes a move on Harry, and Harry knows Ron still likes Hermione. Will Harry brush aside HIS BEST FRIEND IN THE WHOLE WORLD'S feelings aside and go ahead anyway?

Before I even answer this question, I have to say that I could apply the same exact closing sentence of this question to put Hermione as the subject.

Will Harry brush aside HIS OTHER BEST FRIEND IN THE WHOLE WORLD'S feelings and go ahead anyway?

This was brought up by my shipmates and not yet responded to, so it needs to be revived. What about Hermione? In this situation that AK is proposing, is Harry really going to just focus on Ron's feelings and barter off Hermione in an effort to keep the peace?

If so, I won't even begin to point out how many things are wrong with this picture.

But anyway, to answer the question asked, no. I think that if it should happen that Hermione reveals her feelings to Harry and Ron is still crushing on her, Harry and Hermione would talk it over and decide to keep their feelings a secret until Ron resolves his issues. I don't mind saying this because I never believed that Harry and Hermione could live happily ever after together; rather that they will develop and realize that they have stronger feelings for each other and use these feelings in the fight against Voldemort, as previously outlined by FP and Sirius and all the other Harmonians who subscribe to the Love Room theory.

Speaking of Harmonians, I see that Hawk has left our ranks. *prepares torpedoes to sink the HMS Hawknest*

:elaugh: Think if I send over some teletubbies, he'll get scared and come back?

Ah well, the MI6 Division is crumbling as we speak. 00Mars, godspeed to you and your remaining agents. *Earendil saunters over to the Auror Training Division and hopes for shiny weapons*

Grace Granger

August 1st, 2003, 11:32 am

I
Now in OotP we get that Neville is more as just the clumsy guy. He is in truth like a shadow of Harry. In this view looks it slightly different that JKR did choice him to go with Ginny to the ball. It could been everybody from Colin till Seamus but no JKR choice Neville the other one who could have been the-boy-who-lived.
JKR do or did create an interest connection between Neville and Ginny. To this come that since the Yule Ball Ginny is changing, is changing to her normal self and Neville is in OotP changing into something more as a nearlly squib. So both are changing in the direction of the other one. I really doubt JKR did let change or wake Ginny up because of Harry its because of Neville.

You know it's interesting that JKR has written Luna as the anti-Hermione. Do you think that Neville is the anti-Harry?

There's definitely a connection between Ginny and Neville. From GoF we already know that they talk to each other off-stage, the problem is we don't know what about, but obviously the conversations led for Neville to ask her to the Ball.

They're like Harry and Hermione, they protect each other. They make sure they're not hurt physically and/or verbally.

It's interesting how you said "wake Ginny", everyone talks about Harry waking up with either Hermione or Ginny and how Ron definitely woke up in regards to Hermione, but how about another character waking up and realizing their feelings, like Ginny could with Neville.

EDIT: Everyone's leaving MI6! See Hawk what happens. MI6 is going to be abandoned because I know Mars does not want to be by herself over there. :no:

Perdita

August 1st, 2003, 11:45 am

Hawk is leaving HMS Harmony? I think I need to sit down.

---Memo to Captain Turambar---

I am requesting 3 days leave of absence.

---Memo to Lt. Commander MEM---

I am afraid I will have to put your offer on hold.

---BACK ON TOPIC---

sone, that was a beautiful essay. I was so touched by it. My fave part is when you highlighted the fact that the H/Hr friendship at this point is mutually dependent and as a result, a strong bond is formed, and is constantly being strengthened with every test they go through together.

EDIT: (Just wanted to add something) You know what I also noticed? Harry and Hermione are really starting to take each other under their care. Harry is so much quicker to protect Hermione (and only Hermione I might add) nowadays. Like when Hermione ran into Hagrid and nearly fell to the ground Harry catches her. When Grawp tries to grab her twice, the first time Harry seizes Hermione immediately and pulls her behind the tree. The second time, Harry without a wand was ready to do anything to stop Grawp from reaching Hermione. As soon as the Centaurs attack Grawp, Harry runs to pick up Hermione and get them out of there. In the DoM, Harry pulls her down and protects from the shattering orbs and other falling debris.

Perhaps someone can start an essay examining how Harry and Ron defend Hermione? What was the cause of such a reaction from the boys? What would have resulted had the boys not acted? What was Hermione’s response to their acts of “chivalry?” What are the implications for each ship of H/Hr and R/Hr, as well as the implications for other ships (H/G, H/L, H/C, and R/L) ?

BabyMars also had a good idea for an essay. Maybe you could write it, Mars! ;)

FlyingPhoenix

August 1st, 2003, 11:56 am

Exactly Grace, Neville is something like a anti-Harry. Now guess who is the anti-Ron? Its starts with M.

See the anti-heros (Neville and Luna) get the two youngest Weasleys that dos make perfectly sin to me. I mean this two after our heros and at the end they get the anti-heros? Kinda ironic and I think it did fit to JKRs way of humor.

EDIT: sone you hit a part of H/Hr which nobody did debatte till now. Indeed why dos Hermione need Harry? An answer is that he bring a different light into her live. For example the friendship to him has delighten her thats how I see it. If she break school rules than for Harry. Remember in PoA as Harry forgot his cloak in the passage. She run and get it by her own.

Grace Granger

August 1st, 2003, 12:08 pm

erroom_potter

August 1st, 2003, 12:17 pm

I don't think I will post again but after reading I can't stop my thought.
I think 'Love' in this case that we try to debate is the 'Love between 2 persons' (a lot of shippers here)
In my country we got some phrase about love between 2 person
' Love as same as Clap your hands One-hand never make a sound '
Now the relation/feeling that I see.
1.R->Hr (isn't obvious for me because I only see the jealous that he shows I don't think he standing for her when Malfoy insult her can help while he is the one who insult her with the word 'mental/nightmare' too. And I never see he care/understand her especially when he act about S.P.E.W.)
2.Hr->H (it's obvious for me she do everything for him even though risk her life for him)
3.H->Hr (it's not obvious but for me its on his subconscious when he remind her voice, remember what she said, automatic protecting her (forbidden forest, MOM)
4.Hr-/->R (it's obvious for me she hasn't any feeling for him especially 'perfume event' it shows she wanna tell him 'No way')
5.G->H (it's obvious she had feeling for him but after OotP I'm not sure)
6.H-/->G (it's obvious for me he hasn't any feeling for her he acting as same as plain friend's sister)
Well, Love will work if it happen from Both side that why I see H/H beside I believe in their relation that strong and develop everyday like JK try to make it the point of story.

Falcon

August 1st, 2003, 12:24 pm

To all the H/Hr's, have some :clap: :clap: :clap:

MEM, I have an Anna Paquin pic that you might like! :drool:

I haven't been here in a while, and while catching up on posts, this little gem caught my eye.

Forgive me for saying so, but I think Ron in so many levels is a better "friend" to Harry than Hermione. I am not going down the "hermione is bad for harry" road but by the shape the posts have been going recently, this is something that needs to be challenged. :p

Ron is a friend. Friends give each other respect, and part of that respect is respecting a friend's decision even if you know it is wrong. Part of respecting friends is supporting them, even if it means doing something wrong.

Hermione, all credit where it's due, cares for Harry a lot. But, the thing is, she cares for Harry in a different level to Ron's care, and also Ginny's care. The difference is the way in which Hermione expresses her care.

Ron and Ginny will express their care by helping Harry doing what HE wants, even if it is potentially WRONG, or will bring no good.

No offense intended here, but the bolded and italicized parts sure make Ron and Ginny out to be the worst kinds of friends a person can have. "A friend supports their friend's decision even though they know it is wrong," that sounds like the kind of friends that let friends drive drunk, or take drugs, or rob stores. I'm sure that isn't what you meant, but I had friends that "support a friend's decision even when they knew it was wrong," and most of them ended up in jail a time or two. I'm sorry dude, but if Ron and Ginny are those kind of friends, then Harry does not need them.

I think Harry knows of Ron's feelings for Hermione. Let's assume that Hermione makes a move on Harry, and Harry knows Ron still likes Hermione. Will Harry brush aside HIS BEST FRIEND IN THE WHOLE WORLD'S feelings aside and go ahead anyway?

Be honest, when you answer my question.

I think he will. Or at least he should. If Hermione comes forward with her feelings, then Harry should be a man and accept what she is offering. If Ron can't accept that, then he's a lousy human being. (Not Ron bashing) I think Ron will grow to accept it, if he hasn't already.

Falcon

Mad Eye Mike

August 1st, 2003, 12:37 pm

Hawk I'm sorry but Mike had his way you know and as a girl I'm weak like nothing. :upset:

1. FlyingPhoenix - That's the funniest thing I've ever seen posted about me. I was LMAO @ that! :rotfl:

2. Evaluna, Ecthelion, Grace Granger and Earendil - Welcome to the Auror Division.

3. Perdita - Hmph. :grumble:

4. sone - Very nice edit on your post. :clap: You know, there's still space in the Auror division if you're interested. ;)

5. Falcon - :welcome: back. Long time no post huh? High quality Anna Paquin .jpegs are always welcomed Falcon, always. We missed you here, hopefully you'll stick around.

6. Hawk - You shall be missed but even the best of us need a sabatical every now and then. We await your return to us stronger than you were before.

Seriously though, you couldn't find anyone better than Babymars to take over the MI6 division? :p

Mad-I Moody

August 1st, 2003, 12:51 pm

Hi Perdita,

OK, this post was like 30 pages back or something, but I have to respond anyway. I was going to try and wait until I could get my books back so that I could support my claims with textual evidence, but I'm going to have to wait until next week to do that, and by that time, surely this thread will have expanded exponentially. So here goes:

Post 1202
1. Hagrid did not "beg." He urged, at the most. If Hermione cared about Ron so much, she would have insisted on staying to watch him play. If Rowling wanted to show us that Hermione cares about Ron more than her other friends (which I would expect to be the case if she were in love with Ron), then Rowling would have told the story differently. She would have had Hermione insist on staying behind.

Post 1220
What you or I expect Hermione to do is debatable. However, if you look at the text, Hagrid pleads with Harry and Hermione. He did not coax.

Ah, semantics, Perdita. ;)

Beg, begged, beg·ging, begs
v. tr.

1. To ask for as charity
2. To ask earnestly for or of; entreat: begged me for help.
3. a. To evade; dodge: a speech that begged the real issues.
b. To take for granted without proof: beg the point in a dispute.

v. intr.

1. To solicit alms.
2. To make a humble or urgent plea.

plead ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pld)
v. plead·ed, or pled (pld) plead·ing, pleads
v. intr.

1. To appeal earnestly; beg: plead for more time.
2. To offer reasons for or against something; argue earnestly: plead against a bill.
3. To provide an argument or appeal: Your youth pleads for you in this instance.
4. Law.
a. To put forward a plea of a specific nature in court: plead guilty.
b. To make or answer an allegation in a legal proceeding.
c. To address a court as a lawyer or advocate.

I just thought, since we are picking nits here, that I'd point out that Hagrid does seem to entreat, plead with, beg, what have you, Harry and Hermione to come with him -- even you said so.

In the past, Harry has been in horrible situations during Quidditch games and other similar activities (POA & GOF), sometimes even near death. Not only has Hermione been presented as one who is brave enough to face whatever obstacle is placed in front of Harry, she is also portrayed repeatedly in the books as one who stands up to ridicule instead of backing down from it (Malfoy).

Now, I ask, how does that statement that she finds it too painful to watch Ron do badly and wants to avoid the Slytherin ridicule stand? This claim is contrary to the character that Rowling has shown us through 5 books.

OK, as far as the teasing of Ron goes…yes, Hermione is a strong girl, and she has stood up to the taunts of Malfoy before. And I will agree that it IS out of character for her to turn tail and run, even in the face of everyone shouting Weasley is Our King – but that's the point. It is out of character for her. She has been able to watch Harry being chased by a rogue bludger and almost killed in many a Quidditch match – but it is too difficult for her to continue to watch Ron being tormented. On top of that, she is offered a chance to both escape AND to find out what Hagrid has been up to – what's our little Hermy gonna do? She's going to go with Hagrid.

With the Harry/Cho thing – I just can't see a fourteen year old girl enough foresight to say "Well, if I can't have him, I at least want him to be happy with the girl he DOES like." I'm sorry, I'm not meaning to offend any fourteen year old girls on this thread, but I was one once, I live with one now, I've taught classes full of them, and I just don't think that it is their character. They might not be outwardly jealous or anything like that – but I haven't ever seen a fourteen year old girl go up to her crush and offer advice on how he should go about getting some other girl. Hermione calmly explains what Cho is thinking and how Harry should be more understanding. She's obviously not upset when Harry announces that he and Cho have kissed. She tries to make Ron behave when he confronts Cho about the Tornadoes badge – doesn't she reprimand him saying something like "Can't you see that Cho wanted to talk to Harry alone?" She tells Harry to bring Cho with him to the meeting with Rita Skeeter – why would she do that if she was trying to get him to choose between her and Cho? She would just say "Can't you and Cho have a date some other time – this is REALLY important," wouldn't she?

sone

August 1st, 2003, 12:58 pm

Moody, Hermione never offered Harry advice on how to get Cho.

Sarmi

August 1st, 2003, 12:59 pm

MEM - Falcon says he fully intends to hang out here a whole lot more, just owl him the rules for sig pics because it's kinda racy. :D

To: Captain, HMS Harmony
From: Hawk 92

Captain,

Effective immediately I am resigning my 00 post and my commission with the HMS Harmony. I had hoped that my service record onboard the HMS Harmony would clear both myself and my department. As this is not the case I am hereby submitting my resignation.

I would like to recommend BabyMars as the new head of the MI6 division.

After you receive this letter I shall depart the HMS Harmony and return to the HMS Hawknest.

I have enjoyed my time aboard the HMS Harmony and wish her and her crew the best of luck and God’s speed.

Hawk 92

*Hawk departs the HMS Harmony and boards the HMS Hawknest*

Hawk!!!!!!!!! You, you,........... *huffs*

Since, MI6 division has been disbanded.......... :grumble: I'm going to the Training Center of The Aurors, if they'll have me since Hawk ran out on us. :upset:

*glares at Hawk*

Now, back on topic. Sone, that was a great post! I don't have much to say because everyone has said what I wanted to say. But I hope to say more later!

Sarmi

Daveydee

August 1st, 2003, 1:13 pm

Relationships are two way streets and H/G, R/Hr are horribly one-sided.
Unlike H/Hr which is wonderfully none-sided.

Hey all, I know this is from a few pages back but I am quite fed up with R/Hr shippers making this point:
Fed up are you? Well - you know the answer.

sone

August 1st, 2003, 1:21 pm

I honestly have to ask, what makes people think Hermione did not interfere with the relationship directly or indirectly?

Mad-I Moody

August 1st, 2003, 1:21 pm

Moody, Hermione never offered Harry advice on how to get Cho.

Not by saying "Harry, here is what you need to do to get Cho," no. But by clueing Harry in to what Cho was thinking -- by telling him things he should have said to her to make her feel special on Valentine's Day -- she was, in effect, advising Harry on his relationship. Oh, and wasn't Hermione the one who, after Harry talked about the kiss, asked if Harry had asked her to go anywhere/do anything with him (like a date)? OK, I know I don't have my book so I'm operating on pure memory here, so if I'm wrong, don't chew me up. Anyway, that seemed like a suggestion to me -- a suggestion that resulted in Harry asking Cho to Hogsmeade on Valentine's Day.

sone, I don't understand your question. Are you asking: what makes us think that Hermione did NOT interfere with Harry and Cho's relationship? Well, what makes me think that is because I can see no textual OR sub-textual evidence that she did anything to interfere. Asking Harry to meet her in Hogsmeade on Valentine's Day does not, to me, seem like interfering, because she told Harry to bring Cho with him -- and afterwards, she told him what a dope he was for not saying the right thing to Cho.

Boopers

August 1st, 2003, 1:39 pm

I think Ginny CAN be a little vixin, not saying she is. She does lie we've realized that much already. I think she's going to play a huge role in the last two books. I feel that she will eirther A) Finally admit that she like Neville B) Finally admit that she like Harry or C) (more of a joke than anything) JKR will make her gay.

GilyAnn

August 1st, 2003, 1:40 pm

Quote:
No offense intended here, but the bolded and italicized parts sure make Ron and Ginny out to be the worst kinds of friends a person can have. "A friend supports their friend's decision even though they know it is wrong," that sounds like the kind of friends that let friends drive drunk, or take drugs, or rob stores. I'm sure that isn't what you meant, but I had friends that "support a friend's decision even when they knew it was wrong," and most of them ended up in jail a time or two. I'm sorry dude, but if Ron and Ginny are those kind of friends, then Harry does not need them.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The same could be said for Hermione who led Harry and Umbridge to an almost certain death. If it wouldn't have been for Graspw they would have die. Ron and Ginny bashing won't help the H/Hr ship it only makes it look weaker because it sounds as if you have no proof for the ship and need to bash characters to make it happen.

I clearly see Hermione's feelings pointed towards Ron. There is not even the smallest doubt in my mind that she likes Ron. I see no chance of jkr bringing themes of cheap and overused romantic novels plots to the Harry Potter series.

Gily Ann

Boopers

August 1st, 2003, 1:41 pm

I think Harry will end up with Ginny, and Ron with Hermione. You can already see they like each other, I've thought this the entire time.

sone

August 1st, 2003, 1:47 pm

To me Moody I believe it does. But the Hogsmeade visit is just the most obvious example, not the only one. Besides, she didn't call him a dope. But I am busy I will have to explain later.

Grace Granger

August 1st, 2003, 1:53 pm

Mad I, the thing is Hermione is not going up to her crush to give advice. It's Hermione going up to her tactless bestfriend. I think it would have been inevitable, she would have said something regardless. It's what a bestfriend does.

:welcome: back Falcon! :D

COME BACK HAWK! :upset:

sone, I think Hermione interfered unintentionally, unknowingly. Her simply being friends with Harry caused Cho to be jealous, Harry getting fed up at Cho for being jealous and the relationship went down hill after that. It wasn't the only reason why the relationship went down hill, but it was definitely a main one.

GILY, Falcon said he wasn't Ron-bashing. I think you should go back and re-read that part.

I see no chance of jkr bringing themes of cheap and overused romantic novels plots to the Harry Potter series.

As opposed to the Damsel-In-Distress cheap, overused cliche?

Kalie

August 1st, 2003, 1:57 pm

Here's my opinion about the "Hermione giving Harry 'love advice' " issue. I don't see it as her giving advice. If she really wanted to help him out with his date, wouldn't she have done it before and not after the initial damage was done? I have a feeling that she messed up the date unintentionally.

GilyAnn

August 1st, 2003, 2:03 pm

Quote:
GILY, Falcon said he wasn't Ron-bashing. I think you should go back and re-read that part.
~~~~~~

I did read it!

Quote:
As opposed to the Damsel-In-Distress cheap, overused cliche?
~~~~~~~~~~

Every ship is Cliche! By this point in literature all posibles themes have been cover. Damsel-In-Distress is not that much popular anymore. Besides weren't the H/Hr shipers the one who said that Character development was important. Then many say that Ginny is not a Damsel anymore. :evil:

Gily Ann

Falcon

August 1st, 2003, 2:04 pm

Thanks for the :welcome: back folks! I'll be hanging around here quite often. Or at least when Sarmi lets me have the comp. :grumble:

Quote:
The same could be said for Hermione who led Harry and Umbridge to an almost certain death. If it wouldn't have been for Graspw they would have die. Ron and Ginny bashing won't help the H/Hr ship it only makes it look weaker because it sounds as if you have no proof for the ship and need to bash characters to make it happen.

Hermione SAVED Harry from the Cruciatus Curse, she led them into the forest, banking on the fact that the centaurs don't want GROWN humans in there and that like with Hagrid, she and Harry would be let go. She DID NOT take into account just how riled the centaurs would get when she said she was hoping they would show up. I'm not Ron or Ginny bashing, I was saying that IF R/G are the types of friends to support a friend's decision and back that friend up no matter what the consequences, then they are not the kind of friends Harry needs, because they could/would get him killed.

Quote:
I clearly see Hermione's feelings pointed towards Ron. There is not even the smallest doubt in my mind that she likes Ron. I see no chance of jkr bringing themes of cheap and overused romantic novels plots to the Harry Potter series.

See Gily, I don't think she will use "overused or cheap" themes either. I believe that when the Love between Harry and Hermione becomes known to them, it will be more beautiful and powerful than anything the WW has ever seen.

Falcon

Kalie

August 1st, 2003, 2:06 pm

I agree about the cliche thing. I hate using that word, because every ship out there is a cliche, because in one time or another, someone has gone that route. Yes, I think H/Hr is a cliche( I don't think it's "Hero gets the girl" I see it as "Hero gets the heroine" )and I think R/Hr and H/G ae cliches as well. No use trying to argue about which ones are cliche and which ones aren't, because they all are.

Daveydee

August 1st, 2003, 2:08 pm

I thought H/Hr folks always went with the idea that one of the big deals in that potential ship was that Hermione is the one who is always there advising Harry on the right course of action to take, and that she always does it for the best of intentions, and that she's always right.

Curious how H/Hr folks choose NOT to include the 'advice to Harry re:Cho' sequence to back up that idea.

sone

August 1st, 2003, 2:12 pm

Grace, that is what I mean by directly or indirectly...but like I said, I'll have to explain later.

snitch14

August 1st, 2003, 2:14 pm

:nc: Ok, I'm kinda confused. I haven't been here in a few days.

Some of you say that Hermione likes Ron as well, but the evidence you gave wasn't very strong. I mean, the part where Hermione's frostinness 'melted', that was because she felt sorry for Ron as she believed that he didn't do so great, and would you really want to be cold to your friend that's so down?

When Hermione stretched out a hand to Ron, that was for comfort, she would do the same for Harry, and she proved being comfortable with hugging and kissing both boys.

I really think that Hermione doesn't show more favoritism for either of her two best friends. Though she does tend to argue with Ron more...

Kalie

August 1st, 2003, 2:17 pm

The fact that she argues more with Ron has NOTHING to do with her possibly liking Ron more than a friend. He instigates most of those arguments and Hermione is clearly in the defensive mode. There is nothing warm and fuzzy about arguing at all. And not all married couples argue like that. As one person said 50% of married couples divorce because of this.

GilyAnn

August 1st, 2003, 2:19 pm

Hermione SAVED Harry from the Cruciatus Curse, she led them into the forest, banking on the fact that the centaurs don't want GROWN humans in there and that like with Hagrid, she and Harry would be let go. She DID NOT take into account just how riled the centaurs would get when she said she was hoping they would show up. I'm not Ron or Ginny bashing, I was saying that IF R/G are the types of friends to support a friend's decision and back that friend up no matter what the consequences, then they are not the kind of friends Harry needs, because they could/would get him killed.

How ironic saving him from the cruciatus curse to almost have him killed later on. I think Harry may have been better taking pain than probably dying. After all the others free themselves and they were in worst standings than Harry and Hermione. It's amazing that Hermione a girl who gots 300 and something in exams and is so brilliant. Didn't think that the centaurs could harm them! I mean even Ginny (the one who is the supoossed to be dangerous) knew already . At least Ginny and the twins plan was thought out completly. Even taken into accounts the minutes, Harry could have. So when you look at it the Weasley's take risk yes. But they think of every single detail. They are not as careless as people want them to make.

See Gily, I don't think she will use "overused or cheap" themes either. I believe that when the Love between Harry and Hermione becomes known to them, it will be more beautiful and powerful than anything the WW has ever seen.

Well we can agree to disagree because I see that H/Hr won't come to be in love. I believe that they will be best friends but nothing else.

Gily Ann

diam0ndgrrl

August 1st, 2003, 2:21 pm

Curious how H/Hr folks choose NOT to include the 'advice to Harry re:Cho' sequence to back up that idea.

I've always thought Hermione's advice with Cho was strangely endearing. It only serves to bring her in higher esteem with Harry, and it doesn't rule out any chance for a relationship in the future. It shows her loyalty, as well as a cleverness that Harry will start to value more. Plenty of friends have given each other love advice, only to have themselves end up together later on.

snitch14

August 1st, 2003, 2:21 pm

I didn't mean it like that. hehe, i'm not a r/hr shipper. i just pointed out that hermione argues more with ron than harry. MEANING that H/Hr have more similar points and opinions.

if r/hr become a couple, they'd be constantly on the verge of breaking up, it just wouldn't work. if they're bickering like that when they're friends, imagine what'd it be like if they were gf and bf?

FlyingPhoenix

August 1st, 2003, 2:22 pm

Now I have my goal with Hermione:

One of your best friends is Harry Potter. The guy who did survive the dead-curse. Now your 4th year is to end. After three years where you had adventures beyond your imagination and where you see more as once in how much danger he was. By the way he was always closer to you as Ron. Not because you did like him more. No, because he has a muggle background. He is in the same way new in this world like you. You discover this world together with Harry though you know more as him just because you did read all this stuff already but still if you see it real its still something special. Thats why you don't need to proof things for Harry but by Ron because he did grow up in a wizard family. For him isn't everything new, he is used by all this stuff.
Thats the reason you do argue back about simply everything he say to you even its make you mad. You need to proof if not for the people around than for yourself that you indeed a witch. Something what is still after 3 or 4 years is amazing to know for you.
The darkest and most evil wizard of his time is now back he is after your friend. He will end what he begun 14 years ago. Even you did see all this years how often Harry was injured still you have fears to see him hurt still fears it could happen worst. Now is the worst happen this guy who did follow Harry since his very first step in Hogwarts is again powerful. If you imagine that Voldemort was only weak in Harrys first year but still did nearly kill him or in his second year nearly did it again and now he is probably more powerful as ever.
You has more as just fears. You afraid what could happen next. Its summer and you are at 12 G with Ron your best Friend, too. Than its happen you hear dementors did attack Harry. You speachless. If this year start like that? Could it be you lose him? Will he even with you at Hogwarts? You simply don't want imagine how Hogwarts will be without him. You look everything up if there is a chance for him though you know what the ministery did with Harry already.
Weeks went by where Harry comes to at 12 G and stay till end but before is his hearing. Even you know or you speak yourself into it that they just can't expel him you a nervous bag and as you get he is off you feel how much it did bother you this fear.
Back at Hogwarts on off Fudge people are teaching DADA and its getting worst everybody think Harry lied as he say the true he get detention. This year is terrible in every sense. You try to keep Harry save more as ever before because you are aware that you really could lose him. There are deatheaters, Voldemort out there and want kill him. So you don't want that he risk anything in this year. You even thinking if you learn all this spells from him you could help him or better stay at his side if it comes to Voldemort. You don't want to let him go alone.
Christmas is near and Harry isn' anymore in the quiditch team but Ron this don't help much. This year get worst as more month go by. Harry has funny dreams. At christmas you get Harry feels Voldemorts mood and see what he dos but you get very fast that this could go both ways. You worried probably more as ever in your life. The danger is real. As you get he don't do this lessons probably you tells him again and again he has to do it. Its get worst if not terrible worst Dumbledore is away. You always knew if he is around nothing could harm Harry but now everything can happen. Even Harry could die. You starts to nagg Harry, to annoy him because of his lessons with Snape because you know how dangerous his dreams are. You even ask Ron out about Harry. As you get that Harry want to speak with Sirius and he had already everything settled you runs crazy about it. You can't believe it that Harry will risk Sirius savety and his own. All you can do is again nagging. You have to stop him if not anybody else dos but He won't hear.
If you thought it couldn't get worst you was wrong Harry had a dream about Sirius and Voldemort. You know directly it can't be. You know its a trap by Voldemort but how will you bring Harry at your side especially he is yelling and screaming at you. With fear and difficult you try your best but even Ron is against you. Its like nobody understand that you don't want to lose him, that Harry bring himself in danger, risk his life. This is just wrong whats happens. As you see that you lost Ginny and Luna came and you has an idea. Just get check 12G and show Harry that Sirius is perfectly save. Thats the last thing you can do.
Like everything it gos wrong. This year is to end you are in the train and looks back. Everything what you wanted was to keep Harry save and yet everything went wrong. Terrible wrong because Sirius is now dead.

EDIT: Hermione didn't help Harry with Cho. Not really because if she really wanted to help him than she did give all this advice before anything happens an not after it was done. Its don't help if you hear after a row what you did wrong if you did indeed need it before. Hermione did know that Chos past and the possible difficults yet she never said before Harry had this date to him that he have to be carefully with her or that she might be still depressed because of Cedric or just a tiny sentence where she tells him not to say that he is willing to meet Hermione later. Just a hint but nothing did come. All what Hermione did do was to describe a damaged or a allready in falmes staying House than to go and make sure that it never caught fire.

Kalie

August 1st, 2003, 2:23 pm

*hehe* Sorry, misread you post a bit there. I can see your point. And Ron is usually the instigator in these arguments as well.

Completely agree, diam0ndgrrl !

snitch14

August 1st, 2003, 2:26 pm

s'kay. :D I also like to agree with diam0ndgrrl and great post FlyingPhoenix!!! ;D

MoF

August 1st, 2003, 2:32 pm

If Hermione and Harry gets together at some point, I don't see why it all would have to turn into some classical fight between Ron and Harry. Maybe it will, but I think that Ron just needs to grow up a bit. Harry learned his lesson with his first crush on Cho. Ron needs to become more mature and learn his lesson about his "crush". I'm not comparing Harry/Cho with Ron/Hermione, I'm just saying that it is typical for teenagers to learn a bit about love in those years, and often, you end up realising that the kind of people you fell in love with the first time isn't necessarily the kind of people you end up with. Just as Harry's crush on Cho wasn't very serious, I don't think Rons "crush" on Hermione is very serious. I believe that JKR is describing teenage relations very realistically.

diam0ndgrrl

August 1st, 2003, 2:42 pm

I have a little snippet I wrote about the argument "H/Hr would ruin the trio"

Let's look at this two ways:

1) Yes, Ron would be devastated and probably livid with Harry. His jealousy would take over once again, and the trio as we know it would be over. Right now, this is probably what would happen. But it's against my beliefs to say, "we can't have Ron hurt, so he gets Hermione." Sorry, but real life isn't like this. We have a boy who's lost his birth parents, a peer, and the only parental figure he's ever known. We also have a boy who is struggling to crawl out from the shadow of his six siblings, and make a name for himself. Things don't always work out the way you want them too. Just because it would hurt Ron doesn't mean it can't/shouldn't happen. It would be another one of JKR's attempts to portray how gritty life is. And yes, there are innumerable times when friendships are tested because of a girl.

2) We see Ron maturing, slowly but steadily. Perhaps if Harry and Hermione form a relationship, it will show Ron that he doesn't feel the way he thought with Hermione. Ron might possibly grow out of his crush, or he might handle the news of a H/Hr relationship better than we imagine.

In addition, we can't all say "Harry wouldn't be hurt if R/Hr got together, he doesn't care at all". "That's another reason why Ron/Hermione should be together." I'd like to point out that we don't know Harry wouldn't be upset. In OotP, Harry was very angry that he was left out so much from the trio. He grilled Hermione on what they had been doing together, acting very suspiciously. He was so angry at the thought of them having fun together, that he threw out their birthday presents for him. If R/H did get together, that would mean alot of alone time away from Harry, and he might not take this as calmly as you think.

~Jessica

Earendil

August 1st, 2003, 2:47 pm

Originally posted bY GilyAnn
How ironic saving him from the cruciatus curse to almost have him killed later on. I think Harry may have been better taking pain than probably dying.

It would have been better for Harry to have to yet again experience pain beyond the human imagination, possibly risking damage to his mind or sanity, and eventually end up divulging a) the fact that he is in contact with Sirius, b) the exact location of Sirius, c) that he has been having dreams about Voldemort and the DoM, and d) the existence of the Order of the Phoenix?

Umbridge wasn't planning on torturing Harry because she's a mean old lady. She wanted to get information out of him. Would it have been better for Hermione to just stand by like a good little lass and let Umbridge torture one of her best friends into submission? She had to take this risk, and if she hadn't led Umbridge into the forest, they would never have escaped.

I honestly can't believe that Hermione is getting blamed for this. All the evidence she had about the centaurs pointed to her and Harry being able to walk away free and leave Umbridge in their custody ("They wouldn't hurt foals--I mean, kids"), and yet she didn't take into account that they would be bloodthirstier than they were before? How could she possibly predict this? Under the circumstances, her plan was successful and she and Harry did manage to get away, thanks to Grawp. This wasn't stupid or thoughtless of Hermione; she not only saved Harry from being tortured, she prevented him from being forced to spill the secrets of the OotP and Sirius.

I mean even Ginny (the one who is the supoossed to be dangerous) knew already . At least Ginny and the twins plan was thought out completly.

Ginny knew the centaurs would want to attack Harry and Hermione?

And was Ginny really involved in the twins' plan to create the diversion? My book says that Ginny told Fred and George that Harry needed to use Umbridge's fire. I'm not sure where it says that Ginny helped out in thinking of the swamp and taking into account how much time Harry would need.

Originally posted by Daveydee
I thought H/Hr folks always went with the idea that one of the big deals in that potential ship was that Hermione is the one who is always there advising Harry on the right course of action to take, and that she always does it for the best of intentions, and that she's always right.

Curious how H/Hr folks choose NOT to include the 'advice to Harry re:Cho' sequence to back up that idea.

1) Hermione is always there advising Harry on the right course of action to take: Yes, this applies to the "advice to Harry re: Cho sequence". Harry needed to resolve his feelings for Cho, both from the character perspective and from the literary perspective. Things like these don't just disappear in fiction; Harry's three-year crush needed to have some kind of closure, whether negative or positive. The right course of action was indeed to pursue a relationship with Cho and to judge from there whether they were compatible.

2) Hermione did it for the best of intentions: Yes, again this would apply to the Cho situation. I personally think that Hermione has feelings for Harry, but she didn't allow these feelings to obstruct Harry's pursuit of potential happiness with another girl. Rather than to focus on keeping Harry away from his feelings for Cho, she wanted him to have this chance to possibly be happy with her and understand his feelings. Unless Hermione put some kind of Hosepipe Hex on Cho, it was not her fault that Harry was turned away by Cho's emotional wallowing.

3) Hermione is always right: I never believed that Hermione is always right. It may sound like that in my posts because I sometimes feel frustrated when other shippers neglect to give Hermione's character the credit it deserves, but I don't believe that the girl is infallible. Nevertheless, she was completely right in all the advice she gave to Harry about Cho. All she told him was that he had to be nice to her, and he was. This wasn't the problem. Then she told him in retrospect that he should not have brought Hermione herself up on his date with Cho--and, big surprise, she was most likely right about that. Unfortunately, we will never know because it's all over and done with. What was Hermione wrong about in the Cho sequence? All her interpretations about Cho's feelings are indeed supported by canon.