Book SIX: Who will fall in love with whom? Part Two

[Hope1272]

<quote>GilyAnn

How ironic saving him from the cruciatus curse to almost have him killed later on. I think Harry may have been better taking pain than probably dying. After all the others free themselves and they were in worst standings than Harry and Hermione. It's amazing that Hermione a girl who gots 300 and something in exams and is so brilliant. Didn't think that the centaurs could harm them! I mean even Ginny (the one who is the supoossed to be dangerous) knew already . At least Ginny and the twins plan was thought out completly. Even taken into accounts the minutes, Harry could have. So when you look at it the Weasley's take risk yes. But they think of every single detail. They are not as careless as people want them to make.


Now correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Longbottoms lose their sanity from being tortured by the Cruciatus Curse? Looking at the pages of the scene, Umbridge has just admitted to sending Dementors to Little Whinging to silence or discredit Harry. Hermione now knows that this woman is dangerous, very dangerous. There is a very real possibility that when Harry would refuse to talk after Umbridge began cursing him, that she would continue until she either drove Harry insane or killed him. Hermione's one shot is to distract her from her intentions and even the odds since they don't have their wands. Snape is busy with what Harry told him in code about Padfoot and there is no one left from the order to save them at this time. So Hermione remembers that the Centaurs hate humans, especially adults, and Umbridge hates half breeds. It's a long shot, but one that bears more of a chance of Harry escaping torture and possible insanity or death. And it worked, not exactly the way she planned it, but it still worked.

BTW, the only credit that Ginny should really get on the Fred and George's plan is that she went to them. There's nothing in the text that supports. she had anything to do with the actual planning. But she did come up with that garroting gas lie very quickly and that bought them time in the second run on Umbridge's office. And you are right, the Weasley's should get more credit for their planning skills, but to be fair, they also weren't in the same situation as Hermione was either.

[GilyAnn]

It would have been better for Harry to have to yet again experience pain beyond the human imagination, possibly risking damage to his mind or sanity, and eventually end up divulging a) the fact that he is in contact with Sirius, b) the exact location of Sirius, c) that he has been having dreams about Voldemort and the DoM, and d) the existence of the Order of the Phoenix?

Umbridge wasn't planning on torturing Harry because she's a mean old lady. She wanted to get information out of him. Would it have been better for Hermione to just stand by like a good little lass and let Umbridge torture one of her best friends into submission? She had to take this risk, and if she hadn't led Umbridge into the forest, they would never have escaped.

I honestly can't believe that Hermione is getting blamed for this. All the evidence she had about the centaurs pointed to her and Harry being able to walk away free and leave Umbridge in their custody ("They wouldn't hurt foals--I mean, kids"), and yet she didn't take into account that they would be bloodthirstier than they were before? How could she possibly predict this? Under the circumstances, her plan was successful and she and Harry did manage to get away, thanks to Grawp. This wasn't stupid or thoughtless of Hermione; she not only saved Harry from being tortured, she prevented him from being forced to spill the secrets of the OotP and Sirius.

That is ONLY speculation on our part. Because we don't know what would have realy happend. I mean the other free themselves and they were in a worst position that Harry and Hermione. Another posibility is that they were able to free themselves just before Umbridge could have done anything to Harry.

You guys are blaming Ginny for being risky. I merely saying that Hermione is also risky. So if we take considerations of who's riskier than who they are all risky! I see no point on blaming one character of being risky when they all are risky! I'm playing under your rules.

Ginny knew the centaurs would want to attack Harry and Hermione?

And was Ginny really involved in the twins' plan to create the diversion? My book says that Ginny told Fred and George that Harry needed to use Umbridge's fire. I'm not sure where it says that Ginny helped out in thinking of the swamp and taking into account how much time Harry would need.

Yes she said to them:

"And they left you behind?" asked Ginny, looking astonished.

Ok so based on what you say then Ginny had nothing to do with the twins plan of talking to Sirius. Then we can't accused her of being risky, right? So the risky people here would be Fred and George and not Ginny.

Gily Ann

[MoF]

Hmmm. Scary avatars and sigs seems to have become some kind of fashion in here...I suppose that the HP critics is right; HP does indeed promote the occult and satansim. Monsters, freaks and teletubbies (I'm having trouble categorizing teletubbies since they are both scary and freaks..) I haven't been sleeping for the last couple of days.

[Grace Granger]

That is ONLY speculation on our part. Because we don't know what would have realy happend. I mean the other free themselves and they were in a worst position that Harry and Hermione. Another posibility is that they were able to free themselves just before Umbridge could have done anything to Harry.

What would have happened is irrelevant. What happened was that Hermione saved Harry from being Crucio'd. I think that Harry and Hermione in the hands of angry centaurs is worse than being in the hands of the I-Squad, but that's just my opinion.

You guys are blaming Ginny for being risky. I merely saying that Hermione is also risky. So if we take considerations of who's riskier than who they are all risky! I see no point on blaming one character of being risky when they all are risky! I'm playing under your rules.

Agreed, they all take risks. But I think what should be taken into consideration is that Hermione thinks ahead instead of jumping in.

FP that was a great post! :clap: Back slap for you! ;) It makes me wish JKR would re-write the books in Hermione and Ron's perspective.

[Mad-I Moody]

Mad I, the thing is Hermione is not going up to her crush to give advice. It's Hermione going up to her tactless bestfriend. I think it would have been inevitable, she would have said something regardless. It's what a bestfriend does.

exactly -- that's just it. She's advising her tactless best friend, not her crush. She doesn't have feelings (in a romantic way) for Harry.

2) Hermione did it for the best of intentions: Yes, again this would apply to the Cho situation. I personally think that Hermione has feelings for Harry, but she didn't allow these feelings to obstruct Harry's pursuit of potential happiness with another girl. Rather than to focus on keeping Harry away from his feelings for Cho, she wanted him to have this chance to possibly be happy with her and understand his feelings. Unless Hermione put some kind of Hosepipe Hex on Cho, it was not her fault that Harry was turned away by Cho's emotional wallowing.

I just don't think even Hermione would be so mature as to push her own feelings aside to encourage Harry in another relationship IF she had feelings for him. But she doesn't, so she was able to give objective advice on the issue.

[FlyingPhoenix]

Why can we just take it how it was Hermione did speak up and thats all! The consequents are happens its don't dwell if we ask what if and what could I mean what dos this show for any ship?
All what I see is that Hermione is through the whole book more worry as in all other books about Harry!

EDIT: Nice this new sigs here around. MOF I hope you can find sleep.

[GilyAnn]

Agreed, they all take risks. But I think what should be taken into consideration is that Hermione thinks ahead instead of jumping in.

Yes she does I'm not denying that the point is that Ginny thinks ahead also. So I see no reason for blaming who or looking for who is worst than who.

What would have happened is irrelevant. What happened was that Hermione saved Harry from being Crucio'd. I think that Harry and Hermione in the hands of angry centaurs is worse than being in the hands of the I-Squad, but that's just my opinion.

It is relevant. You guys are the ones that bring it up not me! The fact is that the others free themselves so we should also consider that they could have been set out free and Harry would have never experience any course.

Gily Ann

[Grace Granger]

Gily, I don't know who brought it up. I've missed a few pages, I'm just going with the flow here.

exactly -- that's just it. She's advising her tactless best friend, not her crush. She doesn't have feelings (in a romantic way) for Harry.

Mad I, this is where I disagree with you. I think Hermione has started to realize her feelings for Harry here, but she's trying to just push it to the side. :agree:

[snitch14]

it seems that hermione is forcing any romantic feelings out. [for either boy]. it's very hard to see who she likes and definately, she is starting to get the feeling for one of them, but she wants to stay clever and say to herself that it is all very foolish and could never happen.

maybe she's not even very aware of what her feelings might be. she'd be scared to admit to herself that she might like either ron or harry. she would think that it would all just ruin the relationship, but she'd suffer, trying to decide what to do. i dun think the library can help with that, but then, what do i know?

[Kalie]

I agree, Grace. I have a few interpretations of that seen myself. Of course, they've already been noted here several pages back about Hermione's reaction to the kiss( especially about the use of certain words like "briskly" and "business-like" ).

Anyway, before Hermione even asked Harry how his date with Cho went, she could have known that it didn't go very well, simply because of the fact that Harry was at the Three Broomsticks early...without Cho. I think that says alot right there. She asked him "brightly." Now, why would she ask him brightly how is date went. Of course, she's one of his best friends, but I find JKR's choice of words very interesting. Hermione asked him a simple question( "Oh, I forgot to ask you. What happened on your date with Cho? How come you were back so early?" ). Notice she never asks how the date went. She asks "what happened."

If Hermione truly wanted this date to go well, she would have given him some advice before the date. Don't say she didn't know, because Harry told her, remember? But, she chose to give him "advice" after the damage had already been done.

[FlyingPhoenix]

My thoughts to this issue is simple Hermione couldn't know that she and Harry would be in danger if they go into the forrest because Hagrid did say it by himself they are save. And she did believe him.
So it wasn't really her fault. It was from the beginning risky but she rather took the risk as to see Harry tortured. She know probably exactly what this curse do just look at the longbottoms.
I mean if Hagrid get sacked it was clear they would go back into the forrest and check after Grawp so she thought it might be save.

Between isn't it ironic thats Voldemort guilt that Harry is friend with Hermione? Wouldn't Voldemort turn up in PS/SS Harry were never be friend with her.

Wait thats another strange connection to Voldi. I think this fit into my theory.

[Grace Granger]

I agree, Grace. I have a few interpretations of that seen myself. Of course, they've already been noted here several pages back about Hermione's reaction to the kiss( especially about the use of certain words like "briskly" and "business-like" ).

Anyway, before Hermione even asked Harry how his date with Cho went, she could have known that it didn't go very well, simply because of the fact that Harry was at the Three Broomsticks early...without Cho. I think that says alot right there. She asked him "brightly." Now, why would she ask him brightly how is date went. Of course, she's one of his best friends, but I find JKR's choice of words very interesting. Hermione asked him a simple question( "Oh, I forgot to ask you. What happened on your date with Cho? How come you were back so early?" ). Notice she never asks how the date went. She asks "what happened."

If Hermione truly wanted this date to go well, she would have given him some advice before the date. Don't say she didn't know, because Harry told her, remember? But, she chose to give him "advice" after the damage had already been done.

Kalie, you've said something that caught my attention. Hermione did see that something happened in their date and that it wasn't good. I didn't notice that. Then she asked this brightly. Why would Hermione's asking be described as brightly when the situation is dim. Could it be that at this point she has already given in to her feelings? Is she secretly relieved at the fact that it didn't went well?

Why does she react differently to Harry/Cho's situation? Both of them were dim, so why briskly in one page and brightly the next?

Greicy with things that make ME go hmmmm....

[FlyingPhoenix]

Grace, I thought we had this already with this brightly. I always thought thats kinda strange. Why brightly if its clear it was bad Harrys date.

[Kalie]

Glad my comments are making people think! ;)

[Grace Granger]

Grace, I thought we had this already with this brightly. I always thought thats kinda strange. Why brightly if its clear it was bad Harrys date.

I know, but you know it's going to keep coming up eventually. And exactly, why is she asking brightly. I think we all know why. ;)

Yes Kalie you're making us think. Keep refreshing our minds.

[Daveydee]

You all seem to be suggesting that Hermione has now become the devious little vixen.

JK is pretty liberal with the use of adverbs, so I wouldn't really read too much into them - just take them at face value. On the specific point - 'brightly', as with 'briskly' and 'business-like' merely underline Hermione's assumption that things between Harry and Cho are progressing as well as she would like them to.

[Kalie]

DD, I'm just going to ignore your post, because you're taking our comments quite out of context. We never suggested that Hermione was devious. We were just wondering why she said things the way that she said them and why JKR chose those particular words.

[FlyingPhoenix]

Actuelly. It was clear for me thats why I did thought before that Hermione heartly less care if Harry gos with Cho into Hogsmead even if it valentins-day. Just wondering, did Ron sent her a card?
I guess NO.
Anyway Its for me interest that she chosed Valentins-day and didn't even explain things to Harry. Only say she want meet him and thats all.
I mean its interest how less she is before anything happen interest in those two. Only if something happens she want know it. That is it she want know it and gives by the way some advice so its looks innocent. Not like Ron who ask directly in GoF.
Smart ;)

[Daveydee]

DD, I'm just going to ignore your post, because you're taking our comments quite out of context.
You haven't ignored it - you've just responded to it. :)

We never suggested that Hermione was devious. We were just wondering why she said things the way that she said them and why JKR chose those particular words.
Glad to have provided you with the answer.

[noddwyd]

what exactly is the Hawknest? Is that a non-shipper thing?

[Perdita]

Hi Folks,

I just got back from a visit to HMS Hawknest and this is the message that I have agreed to help convey to the Captain and crew of HMS Harmony from Hawk 92:

"The HMS Harmony MI6 Division is hereby disbanded. As most have already joined the Aurors I would encourage all the members to do so. I wish the HMS Harmony Aurors Division the best of luck in the trials ahead.

I’m also sending my lightsaber back with Perdy to be given to the commander of the Auror Division Mad Eye Mike. May it serve him well.

*Hawk salutes the HMS Harmony Auror Division*

Good Luck and God speed HMS Harmony Auror Division. HMS Harmony forever!

Cheers!
Hawk"

---End of Message---

Let's wish Hawk 92 all the best and a pleasant journey.

[FlyingPhoenix]

noddwyd: Its Hawks nonshipper ship. But I think he leans very hard to HMS Harmony by now

Hawk good sailing, than. But still stay in sight.

[Ecthelion]

Ok, since we're on the topic of whether Hermione really noticed Cho's affections and took heed of them.....here's some speculation based on some facts:

The Kiss: *audible groans* yah, yah, well, just hear me out!

First of all, the amount of time when Hermione and Ron left Harry and Cho, till the time when Harry got back, it was about 30 minutes. That's a lot of time to think about things. Also, I think that we all find it obvious that Hermione has feelings for Harry. However, did Hermione think of what was going to happen before it did? I think so.....

For one, Hermione left the room with only Harry, Marietta, and Cho....it's not hard to figure out what's happening. After all, Hermione has sppotted Sho trying to iscolate herself and Harry before, and knows why she's doing it. So she would have easily known something was going to happen. And the longer Harry was gone...the more she could have suspected what they were doing....And if she truly did like Harry (which she does, but no comment), but also love him as a friend, than it would perfectly explain why she adopted those "buisness-like" tones. Wouldn't you do that as well? And now that I think about it, the only way I see it, is the one reason she could possibly be in that "buisness tone" manner would be because she likes Harry romantically. I see no other plausible explanation as to why she would.

Ok, I really don't know if this fits in with the current topic of discussion, so if it does, that's what I meant. And if it doesn't, I've been wanting to say this for a while :)

By the way: GPE :tu:

[Grace Granger]

Hi Folks,

I just got back from a visit to HMS Hawknest and this is the message that I have agreed to help convey to the Captain and crew of HMS Harmony from Hawk 92:

"The HMS Harmony MI6 Division is hereby disbanded. As most have already joined the Aurors I would encourage all the members to do so. I wish the HMS Harmony Aurors Division the best of luck in the trials ahead.

I’m also sending my lightsaber back with Perdy to be given to the commander of the Auror Division Mad Eye Mike. May it serve him well.

*Hawk salutes the HMS Harmony Auror Division*

Good Luck and God speed HMS Harmony Auror Division. HMS Harmony forever!

Cheers!
Hawk"

---End of Message---

Let's wish Hawk 92 all the best and a pleasant journey.

:upset: I feel like crying. For real! :upset: I want Hawk back! :upset:

[FlyingPhoenix]

That would explain why she write this novel exactly only on the day as he got this kiss. Ever later we never saw her with a letter or before only on this day, only in that moment as Harry comes in and she did already wrote a whole page. You can do that pretty well in a half hour

[noddwyd]

Yeah, its been my experience that non shippers in general tend to lean that way more than any other, myself included. I wonder why that is....

[Turambar]

Good luck Hawk, we'll keep your seat warm for you. Nice posts Sone, FP, Earendil.
It is definately deliberate that Hermione is writing to Krum on that night instead of just doing homework.
From a book structure point of view it helps keep up the comparison of Harry/Cho with Hermione/Krum.
But also perhaps it's a confidence thing: she's feeling a bit down over Harry/Cho, Viktor's the guy who was keen on her, writing to him makes her feel more positive. It also shows she's been thinking about their relationships to think about writing to him at that time.

[diam0ndgrrl]

But also perhaps it's a confidence thing: she's feeling a bit down over Harry/Cho, Viktor's the guy who was keen on her, writing to him makes her feel more positive. It also shows she's been thinking about their relationships to think about writing to him at that time.

I never thought of that! The only time we hear of Viktor is immediately after Harry and Cho kiss. Hermione must of known he was staying behind with her, she's very perceptive like that. It's very interesting that JKR chose that time to bring in the Hr/V.

[FlyingPhoenix]

She did bring Viktor in as it gos about DA!

[Kalie]

I never noticed that, diam0ndgrrl! Thanks for sharing ;)

[Turambar]

I just thought of another possible Harry/Cho and Hermione/Krum parallel:
Krum came on emotionally strong to Hermione telling her she was the most wonderful girl he'd met and inviting her to Bulgaria. Cho came on emotionally strong to Harry, crying and wanting heart to heart chats.
Actually just after Krum tells Hermione this we see her cheering Harry on when he comes out of the lake, and of course just after Cho has her big moment with Harry in the cafe, Harry goes and sees Hermione.
Harry was repulsed by Cho's emotion, Hermione didn't go to Bulgaria and seemed slightly irritated by Krum at the Lake Task.
Both had the same response of not wanting to let their admirer in close. They are both pretty reserved people and while they don't seem to mind being vulnerable at times to each other, they find it more difficult with others.

[FlyingPhoenix]

Yeah and both act strange after that first Hermione in GoF and now Harry after this kiss. Just wierd. There again I ask myself why Ron don't get a girl so we could see any reaction like that. Just wondering because I believe as fast he got a girl which is not Hermione as fast he see that he has indeed no problems with that girl and this ship might work

[Hope1272]

I can't agree with your assessment, DD. JKR may be generous in her word usage, but I don't see her putting in a word incorrectly. The readers rely on her wording to paint the scene in their heads and give the proper attitude for the character's words. We're supposed to be getting what's going on even if they aren't through the words and inflections.

The word 'brightly' just seems an odd choice for JKR to make for Hermione's tone after she has witnessed Cho sit with her back turned to Harry and not even glancing at the Griffindor table after their first date. Hermione hasn't missed when Cho couldn't keep her eyes off Harry and guessed correctly as to what happened when Cho kissed Harry, but somehow she doesn't see this as a bad sign? There's nothing hopeful, cheerful or promising about Cho actively ignoring Harry or Harry not going over to Cho when he sees her so using a word that means these things in order to describe Hermione's tone when asking about their date just seems to stand out all the more if she genuinely wants it to work out for them.

But I do see what you are saying about taking things out of words and perhaps making them more than they are. I just don't think that this is the case here. I think JKR chose it for a reason. We can agree to disagree on what exactly that reason is.

And no, I don't think Hermione is acting the vixen. Quite the opposite, actually. She's honorable enough to give Harry her honest knowledge of the inner workings of a girl's mind, situations at hand, etc. and does not at any time try to steer him the wrong way. She's given him information or advice after the fact, never for any upcoming event or time with Cho. She asks him if he's going to ask Cho out after the kiss and mentions that there will be plenty of times to do so, but she never volunteers the best way to do it. ;)



*now wandering around the Harmony wondering if she should timidly, but resolutely head over to the Auror Training facility for further instruction and training*

[diam0ndgrrl]

Thanks Kalie! Although it's Turambar who's coming up with these great parallels! Harry and Hermione both seem to go through possible romance, and both don't seem half as interested as the significant other! I also really think that both Cho and Viktor will prove to be very good friends to Harry and Hermione. Harry seems to have found closure with Cho- they may turn out to be good friends. Since Hermione still keeps in touch with Viktor, we may see him later- perhaps as an ally!

We also forget the famous- both had suspicions of H/Hr!

BTW.. does *anyone* know what's goin on with Portkey?

[Kalie]

I never really noticed those parallels before you all brought them up. Very interesting, I must say. And yes,they did both have suspicions of H/Hr. *ponders*

diam0ndgrrl , Portkey is down...once more. It was doing fine yesterday a bit, but later on in the day it began not functioning properly. I do hope they'll fix it up. But from what I heard, the administrators have recovered all of the files, they just need to be fixed up a bit.

[FlyingPhoenix]

I don't doubt that she means well but she do it after the damage. Everytime before anything happens she is less interest but as fast as something happens she give him advice which give him a view but more not its don't help him to solve his problems with Cho. And I dare to say it was never meant to solve his problems because how I said before it was Chos failure.

Bet: Portkey has some problems and I think it will took time till its running again

[Turambar]

Lots of people have noticed similarities between Harry/Cho and Hermione/Krum. It's just an ongoing debate.

[TheDan]

I am standing by the Harry/ Hermione love affair. Just think about how similar it is to James/Lily. But it will be in the 7th book, just like James/Lily.

[Sirius83]

I should probably comment on Hermione's asking "brightly" after Harry's failed date since i was one of the first who brought it up.

It's quite simple really. Hermione didn't intend to cause damage to Harry's relationship with Cho. However, the date did not go down well and she saw him turn up early and without Cho. She also would have noticed Cho walking right past Harry and sitting with her back to him. His date did not go well. She also didn't react very nicely to Harry being kissed. So she asks brightly what happened. However, after that she manages to get herself back to her usual way...or rather maddeningly patient, as if she was making sure not to let her emotions get the better of her.

It really seems as though she was happy H/C wasn't working out, but being Harry's friend she made sure not to show that she was happy after. The brightly bit sure did slip out though.

[Ecthelion]

*Upon finishing Auror training for Beginners, Ecthelion espies Hope1272 gazing upon the near facility. Quickly understanding her indecision, he casually welcomes her to join the Auror Division if she likes :)*

I should probably comment on Hermione's asking "brightly" after Harry's failed date since i was one of the first who brought it up.

It's quite simple really. Hermione didn't intend to cause damage to Harry's relationship with Cho. However, the date did not go down well and she saw him turn up early and without Cho. She also would have noticed Cho walking right past Harry and sitting with her back to him. His date did not go well. She also didn't react very nicely to Harry being kissed. So she asks brightly what happened. However, after that she manages to get herself back to her usual way...or rather maddeningly patient, as if she was making sure not to let her emotions get the better of her.

It really seems as though she was happy H/C wasn't working out, but being Harry's friend she made sure not to show that she was happy after. The brightly bit sure did slip out though.

Sirius, I know what you mean. Almost all of the situations where cho is brought up or she is present, her actions obviously mean she has inner feelings conflicting against each other. One, her affection for Harry romantically. Two, her love for Harry as a friend. These two emotional feelings aren't always a good combo, and when they collide in Hermione, it forms the "buisness-like" and "bright" comments that we so often discuss. Sort of elementary really.

ALSO: New sig, Yeah! :cool:

[Mad Eye Mike]

I'm going to touch on a few things from earlier:


How ironic saving him from the cruciatus curse to almost have him killed later on. I think Harry may have been better taking pain than probably dying.<edit>


When H/Hr were with Hagrid, Hermione heard the Centaurs say they didn't hurt young ones. Based on that, she took the only viable chance she had to save Harry from Umbridge. There's no way Hermione could've known the Centaurs were going to change their minds. Hermione cannot predict the future - she is not a seer. She did what she thought was right at the time and you know what? She was right for doing it.

Btw, Umbridge was going to perform the Cruciatus curse on Harry, it's not like she was going to give him a really bad headache. So for Harry to take the pain as you say either would've killed him or driven him insane like Neville's parents.

I guess that would be one less problem for Voldemort though.


That is ONLY speculation on our part. Because we don't know what would have realy happend. I mean the other free themselves and they were in a worst position that Harry and Hermione. Another posibility is that they were able to free themselves just before Umbridge could have done anything to Harry.


You are you assuming the kids would have been able to free themselves had Umbridge stayed in the office. It's one thing to get away from a gang of Slytherin punks, it's another from a woman who has gone completely mad. And what do you mean "what would've really happened?" This isn't real life. JKR controls everything and she had all this happen for a reason.


Also, the HMS Harmony Auror Division would like to :welcome:

Sarmi
Sirius83
Falcon
Kalie
Hope1272

As of now, each of your locations (under profile) should read:

HMS Harmony - Auror Division.

Now as an Auror, you get to personalize your room by choosing a 'theme' for it. We have all kinds of themes: Matrix, LOTR, HP, Nsync ( ;) Grace) and many more. However, at this time, the Star Wars theme is unavailable as it's being reserved for Hawk upon his return.


Btw everyone, really good posts today. :tu:

[AvadaKedavra]

Hang on!

"Brightly".... Now, let me offer my interpretation of that.

Note- this forthcoming interpretation is based on the *assumption* that Hermione sussed out that there was something going on- and that it wasn't good.

Hermione is treading on eggshells throughout most of the book, and attempts to go about "issues" delicately, and in the manner she thinks best. Now, Hermione is thinking-

"If I go to Harry and ask him why things didn't go well with Cho, or give him any reason that I think otherwise, he will probably be snappy and say 'How did you know???'- no, I'll play it safe and pretend that I don't have a clue about anything, and let him tell me."

Now, as I said, this is*assuming* Hermione knew about the mess-up.

I personally think she did not notice it- I think Hermione is concerned about the H/C relationship up to the point for Harry's well being, but NOT the overall H/C success. Hence, she will not be at hand, with a clipboard and intensively analysing every single move or interaction. I think she *was* being genuine at that point.

If Hermione senses something and she feels that she needs to talk to Harry about it- she will. She won't play it "false" and pretend to be in the dark. But- if she WAS, then I think it's simply because she was treading on eggshells throughout the book.



it seems that hermione is forcing any romantic feelings out. [for either boy]. it's very hard to see who she likes and definately, she is starting to get the feeling for one of them, but she wants to stay clever and say to herself that it is all very foolish and could never happen.


Snitch14 said this, and for once I agree.

Hermione's growing feelings for Ron are a somewhat of a "clash" against her logicality. Hermione likes everything to be "logical" and follow set rules and likes everything be generally explainable. But love certainly does not fall under this category.

Hence she is split over this. Part is fighting/denying the illogical- the illogical being that she is having feelings for Ron, who has been her opposite argument partner for the past few years.

One of the other parts is examining the illogical, and attempting to make sense of it- probing and exploring. So when an ample opportunity to encourage Ron arises (from our point of view), Hermione falters. Why?

Hermione didn't respond better to the perfume because she wasn't sure that it was a "move." Here she is waiting and waiting for a "move" and when it comes ... well, was it a move? Maybe he got cologne for Harry after all! Who knows?! Hermione could be totally scared to death that she's going to respond too positively to it and make it so obvious that she wants it to be a move, when in the end Ron will come back and say: "Perfume? I meant to get you Dungbombs, the perfume was supposed to be for my mother. The presents must have gotten switched."

So, she goes for playing it cool: "And that perfume's really unusual, Ron."

Ron answers back just as casually: "No, problem .... Who's that for, anyway?"

Hermione is probably blessing her lucky stars that she didn't make a bigger deal of it. Remember, for all Hermione's insights into female mentality - she misses certain "girly" traits. This is an example of "Hermionesque", not an example of "Parvatish".

This is an perfect example of Hermione's logical mind exploring/fathoming every situation and coming up for a possible explaination for it. And, unfortunately, this trait impedes R/Hr, instead of improving it. And this is another reason why I think Hermione wants something more- something like the "confirmation" that I have been talking about.

If Ron confirms his feelings for her outright, Hermione cannot just stand there and think for a possible explaination for it- "Oh, he's mistaken me for Molly"- this is the stark truth, which is the much-needed catalyst for an otherwise frustrating stalemate.

Now, this is my interpretation of why Hermione didn't respond in that particular moment.

This is an extract of my ever-growing "five-stage theory" (coming soon) and in it will be an improvised version of this, including the "extreme casualness of the whole thing" and "clues and hints to each other getting lost in the background of a long/strong friendship".

Signing out,

Avada

EDIT:

Earendil

I'm sorry but I don't think that Hermione has the emotional control or measured levels of premeditation to actively encourage Harry to go for Cho, to not to sabotage their relationship, on the basis that "Harry needs to get Cho out of his system first". It's too unrealistic and far-fetched. (This, of course, is in my opinion.)

BTW, I see that you're taking up the trend of putting self-photos as avatars, like Mad Eye. :p

Seriously, Gollum freaks me out. But you have to take pity on the poor bugger, aka Smeagol.

(and by the way, even though I don't agree with the theory, when you read the theory about Ron and Hermione being the bad and good conscience earlier on in this thread, didn't you instantly think of Gollum's "famous" scene?)

[BabyMars]

Stinkin' HMS Harmony divisions are always changing on me... :grumble:

[crazyforharry]

i love harry and hermione together!!! how do i become apart of the hms harmony aurors division?

[Mutant for Hire]

Hang on!
Hermione's growing feelings for Ron are a somewhat of a "clash" against her logicality. Hermione likes everything to be "logical" and follow set rules and likes everything be generally explainable. But love certainly does not fall under this category.

Hence she is split over this. Part is fighting/denying the illogical- the illogical being that she is having feelings for Ron, who has been her opposite argument partner for the past few years.

There is also the fact that Hermione is the overachiever type. "logically" she should be interested in Harry who has done all of these brave and heroic deeds over the years and is a great wizard and all of that (and so many Harry/Hermione types keep arguing). He is what Lockheart tried to pass himself off as. She expected Harry to get the prefect badge because clearly he's so much more than Ron. She was clearly boggled when Ron got it because it did not fit into her view of the world and Hermione is not good when her views on the world clash with reality. Intellectually, she should be more interested in Harry than Ron, and yet she keeps finding herself drawn to Ron more.

And while he does tend to be her verbal sparring partner, he hasn't always been that. My personal feeling is that the start of their relationship was in book three, when Ron volunteered to help Hermione (not Hagrid, read the passage closely and look at exactly what Ron said) and her reaction to that. Perhaps there was something there before but I think that helped push things along. Ron said exactly the right thing in the right place at the right time (admittedly, something of a rarity for him).

[Frostbite_Panda]

*Steps in timidly*

Heh...*Waves*

I'm new at the CoS Forums, but I've read almost all of this debate thread, and the one that you have on the HMS Harmony (I know, I know, I have no life). I just joined today, and am interested in debating with y'all.

I just thought I'd introduce myself as a H/Hr supporter, and would like to give big *Glomps* to all of thoes faithful shippers out there defending the ship. (R/Hr inculded ^.^)

Sorry if this post is completly pointless...but right now I'm short of time and don't really see a good opening to start debating on. I'll get back as soon as I can and try to make a proper post.

But I'd like to comment Sirius' statement on Hermione's not quite so hidden happiness at the failure of Harry and Cho's "realtionship". Her behavoir both amused me and perplexed me.

Here here everyone!

Thanks! ^.^

~panda

[GilyAnn]

I'm going to touch on a few things from earlier:





When H/Hr were with Hagrid, Hermione heard the Centaurs say they didn't hurt young ones. Based on that, she took the only viable chance she had to save Harry from Umbridge. There's no way Hermione could've known the Centaurs were going to change their minds. Hermione cannot predict the future - she is not a seer. She did what she thought was right at the time and you know what? She was right for doing it.

Btw, Umbridge was going to perform the Cruciatus curse on Harry, it's not like she was going to give him a really bad headache. So for Harry to take the pain as you say either would've killed him or driven him insane like Neville's parents.

I guess that would be one less problem for Voldemort though.


You are you assuming the kids would have been able to free themselves had Umbridge stayed in the office. It's one thing to get away from a gang of Slytherin punks, it's another from a woman who has gone completely mad. And what do you mean "what would've really happened?" This isn't real life. JKR controls everything and she had all this happen for a reason.

Even Ginny knew that the centaurs were dangerous. Hermione is brilliant, very smart if she couldn't deduct that they would be dangerous there is a problem.

Also the others free themselves and they were all being gagged and being held. Neville was near suffocation and he did great!

And exactly because jkr controls this the reason that everything happens. So Hermione's mistake came from jkr. She choosed to have Hermione in that situation. She choosed to have Hermione make an error of judgement.

Gily Ann

[noddwyd]

umm...well her being on eggshells doesn't fully explain that away for me, but maybe you just lost me there, I guess. I think the author would have used a different word than 'brightly' to describe it if that's all it was.

And Gily, Hermione's plan was for the best, given the situation. The only reason it backfired is because she slipped and told the centaurs that she was using them to get rid of Umbridge. If she hadn't then they probably would have just thrown them out of the forest. But since Grawp stepped in and caused a diversion they were able to escape, anyway. I can hardly see how this is a worse outcome than Harry being tortured and possibly dying or losing his mind, or spilling any important information. I would dearly love to see just how the others escaped and what they did to their captors, but since we didn't we can only speculate how quickly they got out or if they could have escaped while Umbridge was still there. In any case it would seem unlikely that they could have saved Harry before she tortured him for a good while. They didn't meet them in the forest until much later.

[Mega]

Exactly where have you got the evidence that Ginny knew that at the time in Umbridge's office that the centaurs where dangerous? I can't remember that.

[noddwyd]

She had a general idea about the centaurs being dangerous, but Hermione and Harry obviously knew more, cause they knew about the 'not harming foals' bit. Which was what she was banking on. That, and Hagrid had reassured them that it would be safe to go visit Grawp, since they were children.

[Sirius83]

Big welcome aboard the HMS Harmony to Frostbite_Panda! :welcome:

On Ginny and the Centaurs - Ginny was not the one who got to see how brutal the Centaurs can be first hand in the forest.

Now, about why JKR had Hermione be the one to lead Harry and Umbridge out to the forest, i'll put it this way. Hermione was the only one who was willing to take that big a risk so Harry would not need to endure the Crucio curse from a madwoman and end up like the Longbottoms. She saved Harry and was the only one to think up a plan to do so. The others managed to get loose eventually yes, but they were taking on fellow students, not a crazed, fully qualified witch.

[sone]

Not to mention they all had Harry's DA training at hand with them.

[GilyAnn]

Exactly where have you got the evidence that Ginny knew that at the time in Umbridge's office that the centaurs where dangerous? I can't remember that.

Here is the part were Ginny questions Hermione and Harry over the centaurs.

"She got carried away," said Harry. 'By a herd of Centaurs"
"An they left you behind?" asked Ginny, looking astonished.

So if Ginny knew Hermione had to know how dangerous this things were. Then again Ginny knew that Hagrid lure Thestrals with Raw meet.

Now, about why JKR had Hermione be the one to lead Harry and Umbridge out to the forest, i'll put it this way. Hermione was the only one who was willing to take that big a risk so Harry would not need to endure the Crucio curse from a madwoman and end up like the Longbottoms. She saved Harry and was the only one to think up a plan to do so. The others managed to get loose eventually yes, but they were taking on fellow students, not a crazed, fully qualified witch.

Well yeah, she and Harry were the only ones who could speak also, since the other were being gagged and near suffocation. The bat boogie hex could have been performed on Umbridge instead of Malfoy. That would have been fun. I mean the Slythering girl that was holding Ginny must have looked like a monster given the fact that Ginny is even smaller than Harry.

Gily Ann

[AvadaKedavra]

I didn't get the impression that Umbridge was a particulary good witch (skills wise). She was inadept with the "fireworks", fighting the centaurs, and she gave the general air of someone who wasn't that skilled anyhow.

So, even though she is fully qualified and crazed, I don't think she could have done much damage.

This is creeping off topic here, and soon new posters coming on will think "what the hell?" when we're discussing the level of Umbridge's skills, when we should be discussing romance in the next books. :rotfl:

By the way, in my personal opinion, I think Ginny could beat Hermione in a duel, hands down. She really is a tough nut to crack, and Hermione, we would have thought, has an excellent knowledge of spells, how is it that she let Millicent Bulstrode overpower her in the duelling competition, when Hermione could have jinxed her into the next century? Hermione is very useful, but mainly in non-combatory spells- i.e. "colloportus", "flagrate", and so on. There *are* instances of combatory spells -i.e. petrificus totalus, but I think Ginny is better in the combatory department.

[Kalie]

Yes, they were gagged, but( like someone said before )hadn't Ron been able to chock out the words, "Er-my-knee-no!"? It was only mentioned that Neville was close to suffocation. I hadn't read anything about the others.

And for once I agree with AK. This is a strange topic.

[Mad Eye Mike]

Well yeah, she and Harry were the only ones who could speak also, since the other were being gagged and near suffocation. The bat boogie hex could have been performed on Umbridge instead of Malfoy. That would have been fun. I mean the Slythering girl that was holding Ginny must have looked like a monster given the fact that Ginny is even smaller than Harry.


Are you saying that Ginny could've taken down a fully grown witch who at that point was insane? You're comparing Malfoy (a student) with a member of the MoM? Oh well.

Back on topic...

[AvadaKedavra]

Unfortunately this is the only topic on hand as everyone has completely ignored my long-ish post earlier on. So I am forced to respond to this one.

As a matter of fact, I think Ginny could've given Umbridge a real run for her money- read my previous post as to why.

[Sirius83]

Well, why didn't JKR write in Ginny taking out Umbridge? She didn't, but chose to show Hermione putting her neck on the line for Harry, although we already have other instances of that.

[AvadaKedavra]

It is a testament to my love of HP that I am still awake at the ungodly hour of 4.30 discussing Umbridge. :rotfl:

You have a point there, but I am saying that Ginny has the potential to blow Umbridge to bits.

This goes for some people (really can't remember who- I've been awake for ages so don't blame me) who say that Harry needs a girl who is strong and doesn't put him in danger. In fact, I think this is Ginny- she blows Hermione out of the water (IMO) regarding duelling/combatory, although Hermione has her positives.

Anyway, to answer you question, Sirius, I think JKR wanted a "hermione humiliation" moment- i.e. Hermione's brilliant plan does get them away but ends up getting them nearly killed and in Harry's opinion wasting time. Other than that, it could really only be Hermione that could think of an excellent plan on the spot.

BTW, I think Hermione is heading for a *BIG* fall soon. She's been right a tad bit too many times and pride comes before a fall. (There's an excellent thread by Mutant For Hire noting inter-book patterns and Hermione's fall is indicated by this.)

Off topic, but I really despise nitpicking about Umbridge's skills, why didn't JKR write in Ginny "offing" her, when its SO far away from the ships. I think it's time to return from our "swim". :lol:

Signing out,

Avada

[GilyAnn]

Are you saying that Ginny could've taken down a fully grown witch who at that point was insane? You're comparing Malfoy (a student) with a member of the MoM? Oh well.

Back on topic...


Avadakadavra In a testament of my admiration for being at that time discoussing HP I will copy your post because you took the words out of my mouth.


I didn't get the impression that Umbridge was a particulary good witch (skills wise). She was inadept with the "fireworks", fighting the centaurs, and she gave the general air of someone who wasn't that skilled anyhow.

Ginny has the potential to blow Umbridge to bits.

This goes for some people who say that Harry needs a girl who is strong and doesn't put him in danger. In fact, I think this is Ginny- she blows Hermione out of the water (IMO) regarding duelling/combatory, although Hermione has her positives.

Hermione is bloody brilliant but she needs a lot of practice. I mean having not stunned the one with the baby death eater was a big mistake. She get's really nervous and sometimes when your nerves posessed you the ability to think clearly is blocked.

[QUOTE]BTW, I think Hermione is heading for a *BIG* fall soon. She's been right a tad bit too many times and pride comes before a fall. [QUOTE]

Oh boy that is so true! Twice her plan failed. First with the fire and then in the forest. Yesterday in my book club people were discoussing that galleon she made. It is really scary! And Rita!

I think we all agree that Hermione sometimes doesn't listen to people. Usually those people learn by a big fall and jkr has a few things that can't be used against Hermione that will make the hairs of anybody's neck raise up. It even worries me more because jkr is so selfish (she said it not me) and she just can do so much with a character that it's herself.

Gily Ann

[haycheng]

Hi, I have been out of action due to exam. I see Hawk has disbanded the 00divison and I am back to solo status. I am free to take any offer.
Here is some Theory and view that was posted couple days ago that I want to answer. I will only use examples in OFTP. It is partly due to my laziness and I believe the most recent material carry more weight.

Gender Switch technique on proving H/Hr are just friends.
Someone(R/Hr shipper) believes that H/Hr’s moments are just friendly moment and if we switch Hermione with Ron, we will about to see those moments mean nothing. The problem is that the technique simply does not work. Trying to switch Ginny with any boy in this scene:
Pg. 295 US version OFTP
She was sitting with Crookshanks on her lap and chatting merrily to Ginny as a pair of knitting needles flashed in midair in front of her, now knitting a pair of shapeless elf socks.
If we put Ron or Harry or any boy, the scene would be a romantic scene. Therefore, the gender switch techniques cannot be used.

SPEW, Ron help Hermione to see her problem?
Mutant of Hire believes that Ron can help Hermione to see her problem with SPEW. Ron will help Hermione fix SPEW, make her either drop the topic or improve her way. While Hermione is tactless when she tries to improve the way of the elves, Ron is and will not be the one to help her.
Pg. 159 US version OFTP
“I’ll sponsor you to shut up about spew,” Ron muttered irritably, but only so Harry could hear him.
There is a plus on R/Hr part as Ron tries not to hurt Hermione’s feeling. However, this scene has more negative for R/Hr then anything positive. First, Ron has not voiced his opinion openly toward Hermione. That means he is not trying to help her. He is also not try to commnicate his opinion is a civil way. Also in this sentence, Ron clearly believes that SPEW is wrong and they should do nothing to Elves situation. To whoever believes SPEW’s principle (notice, not able tactic.) is wrong, DD has told us Elves should be treat with respect. To whoever believes SPEW will need Ron to success, please take notice of Pg 295. Ginny is helping Hermione making socks. It is clear Hermione has finally find a supporter, and Ginny may help Hermione to improve her tactic on perching SPEW.

To GileAnn , The DA scene:
In the DA scene, Ginny voices her opinion about the naming the DA. Her idea is taken instead of Cho’s. It is indeed interesting. However, let see the earlier scene. Cho believes Hermione is stupid to suggest electing a leader. However, they eventually have an election. The whole first DA meeting is indeed very interesting. Either Ginny’s or Hermione’s could be a red herring. Therefore, this useless scene proves nothing.

Hermione’s problem:
Since someone decided to bring up Hermione’s character problem, I will try to answer him or her. Everything you guys say are true, except we do not know will Hermione has a big fall. However, this has nothing to do with ship at all. I do not see how it can be anything remotely important to ship. (Just as I do not know how Ginny’s power has to do with ship)
However, I will answer Hermione’s decision on go into the forest. I believe she has made the right call. The curse is indeed very powerful and it is called an unforgiving curse. There are persons who become insane due to the curse. I do not know the power level of Umbridge. However, Umbridge may be lack of knowledge to due with firework among other things may not necessary mean she cannot use the unforgiving curse properly. Moreover, it is also made clear to Hermione that centaurs do not harm children. Her choice is logical.

This is it for now. I will come back for “Hermione’s motherly toward Harry” and “Ron and Hermione’s fight, what they mean?” later.

PS: Wish you good luck Hawk!! :cool:

[Young_Prodigy]

A day and a half later and there is over 250 extra post over 10 pages since i last post. I see everyone been busy :elaugh: .....But to the topic at hand i'll just say that like some other indiividuals I think Ginny would probably give Umbridge a run for her mone.

How did talks get all the way to Umbridge from the big debates with H/Hr, and R/Hr?

http://www.cosforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6965&stc=1

[BabyMars]

:welcome: Frostbite_Panda!!

Good to see another h/hr shipper here. There are plenty of seats on the HMS Harmony, being that it is so big. You may eventually qualify for the auror division (I'm not the determiner of that. Actually Mad Eye Mike hasn't asked me to be an auror, so instead, I'm going to be perfectly happy being the HMS Harmony Shark. Care to join me in the choppy waters?? ;) )

Anyway, glad you read the HMS Harmony file. Turambar put that together and did a wonderful job, don't you think? Looking forward to reading your posts. :)

Cheers *smooch*

[Mad Eye Mike]

Haycheng and Babymars - Consider this an open invitation to all of you to join the Auror division.

:welcome: Frostbite_Panda.

Welcome the newest member to the HMS Harmony - Auror Division:

GriffindorGal

[BabyMars]

GriffindorGal, Haycheng and Babymars - Consider this an open invitation to all of you to join the Auror division.

:welcome: Frostbite_Panda.

Waiting to re-open the 00Division. If I can't, I will be more than happy to be a HMS Harmony Auror...shark...thingy.

Cheers Mike

[GilyAnn]

I don't know who brought up the part about switching genders but let's see:
This is the original version.

Pg. 295 US version OFTP
She was sitting with Crookshanks on her lap and chatting merrily to Ginny as a pair of knitting needles flashed in midair in front of her, now knitting a pair of shapeless elf socks.

Other versions:

She was sitting with Crookshanks on her lap and chatting merrily to Dean as a pair of knitting needles flashed in midair in front of her, now knitting a pair of shapeless elf socks.

She was sitting with Crookshanks on her lap and chatting merrily to Neville as a pair of knitting needles flashed in midair in front of her, now knitting a pair of shapeless elf socks.

She was sitting with Crookshanks on her lap and chatting merrily to Seamus as a pair of knitting needles flashed in midair in front of her, now knitting a pair of shapeless elf socks.

I'm failing to see how is this romantic. She is talking, crosshanks is on her lap and they are knitting.

In the DA scene, Ginny voices her opinion about the naming the DA. Her idea is taken instead of Cho’s. It is indeed interesting. However, let see the earlier scene. Cho believes Hermione is stupid to suggest electing a leader. However, they eventually have an election. The whole first DA meeting is indeed very interesting. Either Ginny’s or Hermione’s could be a red herring. Therefore, this useless scene proves nothing.

The whole thing about the leader was that Cho though that obviously Harry had to be the leader. The though about someone else being the leader was simply ridiculous on Cho's mind. Evidently so did everyone else.

'I think we ought to elect a leader,' said Hermione.
'Harry's leader,' said Cho at once, looking at Hermione as though she were mad.

Gily Ann

[BabyMars]

Alright Mike ( :grumble: ), add me to the auror list, but I'm still gonna try to get the 00Division back up for newer members.

Cheers :smooch:

EDIT: Can we all stay in context when debating? Thanks.

[Falcon]

Hey MEM,

Glad you liked the pic ;) She sure is :drool: worthy, ain't she?

I humbly accept your invitation to the HMS Harmony Aurors, and thanks for asking. I shall try to live up to the standards set forth by such notables as yourself and our other esteemed shipmates.

Falcon

[Grace Granger]

Falcon, I'm coming out of my part time Lurkdom, just to say I LOVE your sig.

:welcome: To all Members! I hope to see you soon at HMS Harmony ~ Aurors Division.

Ciao y'all! ;)

[Sarmi]

Hey guys!

Just making a quick post because I'm out of town at the moment. :upset:

Great posts everyone!!!! :clap: :clap: :clap:

MEM - I accept your invitation to HMS Harmony Aurors, thank you for the invitation! :agree:

See ya guys later!

Oy.......catching up will be interesting.... :sigh:

BTW Falcon, love your sig picture!!!!!! ;)

Sarmi

*Yeah! My 200th Post!!!!!!*

[erroom_potter]

This is my though about two girls that people think deserve for harry
1.Hermione
Situation: best friend, same class, same house, always around with him especially when he lonely and Need someone (GOF-where the other girl)
Feeling for him: Care, Worry, Miss.
2.Ginny
Situation: best friend's sister, younger class, same house, I don't see she around him.
Feeling for him: Crush with the fame ((PS/COS),POA/GOF I don't see her, well as same as harry doesn't see her, this story is Harry's POV), Over crush (OotP)
About two boys that people think deserve for hermione
1.Harry
Situation: best friend, same class, same house, always around with her
Feeling for her: Care, Worry, Miss, and Annoy but understand (POA), and angry but finally understands (OotP)
2.Ron
Situation: friend (I don't think he stand the same place as Harry), same class, same house, around with her when he need her help (Homework) and when the other friend around (don't say they stay together when harry doesn't see, it isn't in canon)
Feeling for her: don't care (speak everything that he want even though it made her upset (S.P.E.W), jealous/angry and don't (try to) understand (Krum)
About girl that people think deserve for Ron
1.Hermione
Situation: friend, same class, same house, around with him for the other friend (include the borrow, 12GP)
Feeling for him: Care, but after 'Perfume event' I doubt she doesn't care anymore.
About boy that people think deserve for Ginny
1.Harry
Situation: brother's friend, older class, same house, never around with her
Feeling for her: I don't see any feeling from him for her.
Maybe I'm wrong in the future but this is I see in present. (Canon from PS->OotP)
Harry & Hermione deserve each other.

[Mad Eye Mike]

Gilyann,

I noticed you omitted the rest of that scene where it clearly shows Hermione wasn't actually trying to elect a leader. It was just a formality vote to avoid any power struggles later on. Hermione knew Harry was leader because without Harry, there was no DADA. Here's the rest of that scene:

'I think we ought to elect a leader,' said Hermione.
'Harry's leader,' said Cho at once, looking at Hermione as though she were mad and Harry's stomach did yet another back flip.

"Yes, but I think we ought to vote on it properly," said Hermione, unperturbed. "It makes it formal and gives him authority. So--everyone who thinks Harry ought to be our leader?"

[GryffindorGal]

I've always thought Hermione's advice with Cho was strangely endearing. It only serves to bring her in higher esteem with Harry, and it doesn't rule out any chance for a relationship in the future. It shows her loyalty, as well as a cleverness that Harry will start to value more. Plenty of friends have given each other love advice, only to have themselves end up together later on.


After having re-read it for the umpteenth time, I'm not so sure "advice" is the word to use regarding the PKA or the date fiasco. She wasn't advising Harry as much as she was dissecting what had gone wrong. Its very similar to the way she was wanting dissect the various OWLS post test.

[haycheng]

To GilyAnn
I see you try to replace the knit scene with boys other than Ron or Harry. May be I am going little to far by saying any boy. However, boys generally do not stick around and help girl to knit. It is gnerally a scene for lovers or female friends. I am sure R/Hr and H/Hr will both make a big hint if they stay around when hermione's knit. I simply want to prove the theory is wrong. People can also change the Ron and hermione interaction with Ginny or Harry, they would just mean nothing as well.

DA scene. To me, it seems Cho knows how important Hermione is to Harry, and purpose try to make hermione look stupid. We know enough about Cho that she can be jealous enough to do such a thing. As for Ginny part, may be she wants to shot down C/G as well. She is not so nice to Cho, isnt she? To me both scene in the DA meeting are red-herring. Either one is good enough to prove anything. It seem JKR creat both of them to cover each other.
Gily Ann, you are not going to debate this scene with me, right? I mean I can see Ginny action as hint but the problem is that there is just a Cho jealous Hermione scene right before that. I do not know which one is the cover up and which one is the real hint....

I am happy to be aboard aruor department. anything I need to change on my sig. ?

[Turambar]

Thanks Mars for tirelessly promoting the H/Hr file. :) I'm working on a Phoenix File,BTW.
And I'll have to give the auror division a miss. Nice idea but I like being a free agent.;)
I had a query for shippers about this scene: "For a moment Harry was tempted to go with Dobby. he was halfway out of his seat, intendinfg to hurry upstairs for his Invisibility Cloak when, not for the first time, a voice very much like Hermione's whispered in his ear: reckless. It was,after all,very late, he was exhausted, and had Snape's essay to finish."
Can people think of previous occasions when the voice has been heard; is the point of the scene that he associates Hermione's voice with his sense of reason or that he's come to REALISE that it does equate to Hermione, or that he's starting to be aware that he should listen more to her.

[Mad Eye Mike]

Falcon - your sig rocks! :lol:

The Auror Division is shaping up quite well. Our members include:

FlyingPhoenix
Evaluna
Grace Granger
Kalie
Earendil
Ecthelion
Falcon
Sarmi
Sirius83
GriffindorGal
Babymars
Hope1272
Haycheng

For those of you wondering what to do, go into your profile and change your location to read HMS Harmony - Auror Division.

haycheng - In Diagon Alley there's a thread named "Signature Hosting And Question Thread". There are directions inside on how to put a pic in your sig.

Turmabar - I'm disappointed. :upset: Oh well, moving on.

Back on topic...

Turambar - As OotP goes on, doesn't Hary begin to hear Hermione's voice in his head more and more? I'm not sure.

[Kalie]

As OotP goes on, doesn't Hary begin to hear Hermione's voice in his head more and more? I'm not sure.

That's what I'm beginning to see more and more of. He also seems to remember alot of what she is saying quite a bit. Especially when he is in Dumbledore's office after the DE fight at the DoM( "Hermione said-" ). He made that remark quite a few times, I might add. Perhaps Hermione is becoming his voice of conscious?

[Turambar]

Mike: I was just interested in the fact that JKR wrote "not for the first time" yet by my reckoning that WAS the first time she'd mentioned Harry hearing Hermione's voice in his head. I could be wrong.
Maybe the point for the reader to take in was the fact that Harry had suddenly realised that voice - his voice of reason - sounded like Hermione's voice.

[Mad Eye Mike]

Turambar,

Harry suddenly became conscious of Hermione's voice even though it's been there all this time. Let's see, Hermione's voice has always been there but Harry's never noticed it. Hmm, now why does that particular pattern of realization sound familiar? ;)

[Turambar]

He's 'realised' quite a bit about her in the past two books.
In GOF he realised she was attractive as a girl and I also think he recognised her strength of character while dealing with public pressure (the Rita articles) and also her extreme loyalty to him. He specifically aknowledges that loyalty when they are arguing about Sirius in OOTP. He also realises by the end that she is more often than not right and that he should listen to her and that she has his best interests at heart.

[Mad Eye Mike]

Do you see how Harry is realizing things about Hermione in small doses? How much longer until he's hit with the final, obvious one about her?

[MoF]

The whole thing about the leader was that Cho though that obviously Harry had to be the leader. The though about someone else being the leader was simply ridiculous on Cho's mind. Evidently so did everyone else.

'I think we ought to elect a leader,' said Hermione.
'Harry's leader,' said Cho at once, looking at Hermione as though she were mad.

Are you suggesting that Hermione didn't want Harry to be the leader? I'm sorry if I'm misunderstanding you, but Hermione also wanted Harry to be the leader, she just wanted to make it formal, so no one could question his authority.

[BabyMars]

Mike, your sig is scaring me! After seeing The Ring, I had nightmares for a month. Sometimes I still think that little girl is going to pop out of my tv screen. :scared:

I'm going to look up instances in OotP where Harry hears Hermione his voice of reason or conscience. I'll post text and page numbers tomorrow.

The 00division is still disbanded until further notice. I apologize for the inconvenience for new H/Hr posters. Please disreguard any rediculous remarks or comments Mad Eye Mike (he loves NSYNC) might throw at me about that. ;)

Oh, and you are very welcome Turambar. I'm looking forward to the OotP file. :)

Cheers *smooch*

[Turambar]

Mars: It's really hard to keep up with all these posts for the file. I'm well behind.
Mike: The other interesting thing is why does JKR feel the need to change/step up the pattern? Why does he have to realise it's Hermione's voice in his head. Why does Cho change into Hermione in the dream. Why not leave them puttering along with their nice 'platonic' little friendship?

[FlyingPhoenix]

First about Ginny. I'm sure she didn't know that the centaurs were dangerous. She just did ask why they cared Umbridge away but not Harry and Hermione. Thats exactly the same question which Hermione ask before to Hagrid: Why the centaurs didn't act against her and Harry, ans why its for them still save to go into the forrest? Answer because they are too young. The centaurs don't attack innocent life.

I think I need to quote good old Hagrid maybe than you might understand that Hermione didn't act wrong or didn't think wrong.

"Hagrid." said Hermione breathlessly, skirting the patch nettles they had passed on their way there, "if the centaurs don't want humans in the forrest, it doesn't really look as though Harry and I will be able-" "Ah, you heard what they said," said Hagrid dismissively, "they wouldn't hurt foals-I mean kids. Anyway, we can' let ourselves be pushed aroun' by that lot," "Nice try," Harry murmurred to Hermione, who looked crestfallen.
At this point was for Harry and Hermione clear that if Hagrid have to go they will come back into the forrest and teach or look after Grawp. So it was save at this point. I just don't get why you say it wasn't save if there was this chapter named grawp where you can read this part.
I mean if they knew its not save or that they could say "Sorry, Hagrid its to dangerous!" Do you really believe that they did bother that much about grawp in the next two chapters?

About Ginny has the possible potential to fight Umbridge. If I'm not that wrong than was she very less mentioned as it was time to train spells in DA. So I doubt that Ginny could fight Umbridge. The only few people which were mentioned were: Neville, Hermione and Cho. As a quick side note Hermione was always on top of this list only once or twice Neville was on the same level.

I personally think she did not notice it- I think Hermione is concerned about the H/C relationship up to the point for Harry's well being, but NOT the overall H/C success. Hence, she will not be at hand, with a clipboard and intensively analysing every single move or interaction. I think she *was* being genuine at that point.

This still not an explaination why Hermione is brightly. Thats kinda strange if that did fit to that what you say. If someone is worried about someone else relationship I'm sure this one don't look brightly or ask brightly.

Hermione didn't respond better to the perfume because she wasn't sure that it was a "move." Here she is waiting and waiting for a "move" and when it comes ... well, was it a move? Maybe he got cologne for Harry after all! Who knows?! Hermione could be totally scared to death that she's going to respond too positively to it and make it so obvious that she wants it to be a move, when in the end Ron will come back and say: "Perfume? I meant to get you Dungbombs, the perfume was supposed to be for my mother. The presents must have gotten switched."

Sorry, but I lost you here. Because first Hermione dos like Ron and know he likes her back, how thick have she to be that she don't get that this perfume is meant like it should be meant? I do think she know what Harry get from Ron. This thought that Ron did give her the wrong gift its kinda stupid from her if you ask me there isn't any logical basis for that. Not in a friendly way and not in a romantical way.

Nice post so far thought I'm more and more confused.
And thank to haycheng for clear this SPEW part which I don't understand why this should turn into a mess.

[Mega]

I can't belive people are saying Ginny could give Umbridge a run for her money. All Fred said was that she could do a good bogey hex and now you are all saying she has a chance of taking down someone from the MoM? She's only in her 4th year. Even if Umbridge isn't the most skilled witch in the world she still has more experience and a wider knowledge of spells and hexes. Can anyone give me another quote from the book where Ginny's skills have been explained as above avrage? The only one I think their is the bogey hex one in OotP.

I don't think Ginny could beat Hermione either. I don't think we have even seen Ginny use her magic in a duel. Hermione in many occasions has proven what a fast thinker she is: the pixies in CoS, the MoM in OotP. Not only doe's Hermione know every spell under the sun but she also knows how to use them all. If their ever is a problem it is always Hermione that comes up with a spell. She isn't top of her year for nothing.

Now back on topic. I think it is very stupid that Ron bought Hermione perfume for Christmas. We all know Hermione isn't that knod of girl and the only time she made a real effort was in GoF. Harry knew what Hermione was like and knew that she would prefer a big, meaty book. Even better was that it was a book that she wanted and not just any old one. This shows that Harry not only knows Hermione better but also pays attention when she talks (because he knew what book to get her).

[sone]

As I was wanting to say much, much earlier Hermione gets in the middle of Harry and Cho's relationship directly and indirectly. Take the Hogsmeade scenario for example. She wants Harry to meet her at noon at the three broomsticks. He is not sure he can because he may spend the whole day with Cho. But Hermione is insistent, she has already said that this is really important. She is not really interested in hearing about Harry spending his whole day with Cho. You can tell by not her letting Harry know why she needed him to see her or give him any advice on what to say to Cho. Hermione knows Harry just as well if not more than anybody he has ever known in his life. Did she really expect Harry to tell Cho that he was annoyed, that he did not want to meet her, or that she was ugly.....even as a lie? She already knows Harry is a little clueless about girls, yet she does not offer anything to help him smooth things over with Cho before it potentially gets worse. Hermione not offering to help Harry is very rare indeed. Not unless she thinks he is doing something wrong. :)

[GilyAnn]

I noticed you omitted the rest of that scene where it clearly shows Hermione wasn't actually trying to elect a leader. It was just a formality vote to avoid any power struggles later on. Hermione knew Harry was leader because without Harry, there was no DADA. Here's the rest of that scene:

No I didn't omitted the point was with Cho not Hermione.

DA scene. To me, it seems Cho knows how important Hermione is to Harry, and purpose try to make hermione look stupid. We know enough about Cho that she can be jealous enough to do such a thing. As for Ginny part, may be she wants to shot down C/G as well. She is not so nice to Cho, isnt she? To me both scene in the DA meeting are red-herring. Either one is good enough to prove anything. It seem JKR creat both of them to cover each other.
Gily Ann, you are not going to debate this scene with me, right? I mean I can see Ginny action as hint but the problem is that there is just a Cho jealous Hermione scene right before that. I do not know which one is the cover up and which one is the real hint....

No the whole thing about Cho in the DA is that she though Hermione wanted to be the leader and Cho CLEARLY though that Harry should be the leader. If you notice even though Hermione only wanted to voice it out properly Cho ended up winning and Harry ended up being the leader.

Are you suggesting that Hermione didn't want Harry to be the leader? I'm sorry if I'm misunderstanding you, but Hermione also wanted Harry to be the leader, she just wanted to make it formal, so no one could question his authority.

Read above.

First about Ginny. I'm sure she didn't know that the centaurs were dangerous. She just did ask why they cared Umbridge away but not Harry and Hermione. Thats exactly the same question which Hermione ask before to Hagrid: Why the centaurs didn't act against her and Harry, ans why its for them still save to go into the forrest? Answer because they are too young.
At this point was for Harry and Hermione clear that if Hagrid have to go they will come back into the forrest and teach or look after Grawp. So it was save at this point. I just don't get why you say it wasn't save if there was this chapter named grawp where you can read this part.
I mean if they knew its not save or that they could say "Sorry, Hagrid its to dangerous!" Do you really believe that they did bother that much about grawp in the next two chapters?

So she knew that the Centaurs could be dangerous.

About Ginny has the possible potential to fight Umbridge. If I'm not that wrong than was she very less mentioned as it was time to train spells in DA. So I doubt that Ginny could fight Umbridge. The only few people which were mentioned were: Neville, Hermione and Cho. As a quick side note Hermione was always on top of this list only once or twice Neville was on the same level.

No Ginny was mention in the spells also. And I have no doubt that she could have and that a bat bogey hex on Umbridge would have been lovely to see.

I don't think Ginny could beat Hermione either. I don't think we have even seen Ginny use her magic in a duel. Hermione in many occasions has proven what a fast thinker she is: the pixies in CoS, the MoM in OotP. Not only doe's Hermione know every spell under the sun but she also knows how to use them all. If their ever is a problem it is always Hermione that comes up with a spell. She isn't top of her year for nothing.

Yes we have. Ginny only got a broken ankle (because Luna broke it)and recover from the stunner fairly fast. Poor Hermione was the first one to be black out. Being smart doesn't guaranteed that she be good at dueling.

Gily Ann

[Mega]

Yes but we do not know what Hermione was hit with when she blacked out. It must of been stronger than a stunner if she was still having to take a potion three times a day a few days later.

Hermione is not one of those people that knows alot about something but when it comes to doing it she isn't very good. She has proven again and again that she is fully capable of doing almost any spell. She's the best in her year and she didn't become the best by just knowing about the spells. She is good at doing them aswell.

Just because Ginny can do one good hex that doe's not mean she is this all powerful witch that can take down MoM officials.

[FlyingPhoenix]

Thats very much what I think Hermione just don't care that much about the relationship H/C she want only know whats going on. Thats very different as to give advice or want to help. I will show you that this is exactly how it is from the very first time as Hermione mention Cho.

"And talking about Michael and Ginny...what about Cho and you?" "What d'you mean?" said Harry quickly. It was as though boiling water was rising rapidly inside him;a burning sensation that causing his face to smart in the cold- had he been so obvious? "Well," said Hermione, smiling slightly, "Ahe just couldn't keep her eyes off you, could she?"

Its interest what Harry dos think. He think that Hermione has watch him but not Cho. Much more interest is that Hermione went from Ginny to Cho? I mean from one crushed girl to the next one. See what I mean she is asking him what is with Cho? And she did mention Micheal by her own. It wasn't neccesary to say it or even bring it into the conversation not if she wanted to say something about Ginny. She did it and just told Harry she isn't any more interest in Harry.

Later about this Kiss again before anything happens she isn't interest but after it she ask, what did happen? Only by the way she explain things about this topic. Its not a help its still only asking what Hermione dos. Harry is even surprised that Hermione guess right that is was indeed Cho.

Ron s******ed, breaking off when Hermione caught his eye.
At this point is for me clear that her look is'nt nice not in the slightest way. I mean how often dos Ron stop anything only by a look on Hermiones face? Not often if its not very near of McGonnagall impression. Why should she at this moment look like that?

Hermione did expect it that this might happen thats why she sit there since 30 minutes and is writing her letter. You can count she did write on it since she was back in the common room. Its mention that one page was already finished.
Its writen that nearly everybody else had gone to bed though still she did wait so she wanted know and not wait till the next day. Why was it that important to her?

After Harrys date again she ask whats with Cho? Did you recorgnise that Hermione is much more interest whats going on as Ron? Someone who is usually the one who ask all this stuff but suddenly Ron is replaced by Hermione who ask. This is kinda strange. She always asks what did happen or whats between you two? She shouldn't be that interest in his relationship with Cho but still she is.

EDIT: I disagree Hermione didn't know that they are dangerous against her and Harry. Because in this scene is clear that the centaurs do warn Hagrid and not Harry and Hermione. They say they don't tou´ch innocent life thats sounds in my ears awule like the forrest is save for Hermione and Harry.

In all DA meetings is Ginny only once mentioned as she did disarm Michael after that nothing more. Only Neville, Hermione and Cho are mentioned. For example the shield-charm: only Hermione did master the charm faster as Neville or the patronus only Cho and Hermione did it again nowhere is mentioned Ginny. So if I take the DA as my line where I can say how good Ginny is than she isn't better as Cho, Neville and Hermione. But if she were I have no doubt that Harry or JKR did mention that Ginny was better as Hermione because its even mentioned that Neville was nearly as good like her. So no Ginny isn't that good and can fight a full grown wizard.

[duynd]

Hi everyone! I’m a newcomer here and I appreciate all your posts which help me know more throughly about the book (I’m a Vietnamese and my English is very bad. So if I make some mistakes in using English please correct them for me).
And here is my thought:
In book 4, how did Ron response when he saw Harry’s name fly out the goblet? How dare he doubt his best friend while he was the first one had to know Harry never want to be famous or do something to be famous. After came back from St Mungo, I think Ron’s behaviour made the problem was more serious. Why did it take him one day before he told Harry what he thought? (In these two scenes, Hermione always appeared in time and cheer Harry up, why somebody said she was tactless?). Moreover, I think Ron is the one who tends to chose “what is easy”. In book 5 “what is easy” is being a friend who always agree with Harry and let him do whatever he wants. It seems that Ron want to satisfy Harry more than to protect him. From book 3 onwards, especially in “Fight and Flight”, Harry needed his friend who is clear-sighted and calm enough to protect him from doing something reckless because he absolutely lost his calm. But what did Ron do for Harry? He agreed with him easily and I don’t know why Ron didn’t realize how dangerous to go to rescure Sirius without inform to the Order (maybe he thought DA can defeat Voldemort???).
Secondly, Ron and Hermione often bickered about something trivial when Harry tend to discuss with Hermione not Ron to dealt with serious problems. And even if he don’t agree with her, he always listen carefully enough to realise that she always put his safe on top-ranking and her opinions are often … right.
Finally, I’m an Easterner so maybe my conception about love is different from all of yours but I think R/Hr love (if it happen) is too unstable because they are completely contradictory. On the contrary, H/Hr relationship was building step by step from book 1. At the beginning it’s purely a friend relationship and will gradually develop into love. Furthermore, Hermione is based on JKR’s childhood (many points confirm this: Rowling said that in some interviews; the Hermy’s Patronus is an otter which is Rowling’s favorite animal…) so I don’t think Rowling wants her precious Hermy to end up with such a…. typical boy like Ron. He needs someone else who highly appreciates his virtues, who don’t care about his tactlessness or his insesitivity (Luna???), not Hermione - Harry needs badly.

PS:
- I wonder if Hagrid asked Ron to go to the Forbidden Forest what would he respond? (in book 2 it seemed that Ron didn’t want to go to the Forest again and he blamed Hagrid so much about his hint).
- What is HMS Harmony? I guess that is the Order of H/Hr shippers (Harry + Hermony). Right?

[esicardi]

Hi People! :)
I am a newbie in this forums. Some of the posters here probably know me from FAP forums *waves to Sarmi and Falcon*, but I hadn't post before to this thread, even when I had lurked it for a long while.
I will make first a short introduction: I am an Harry/Hermione shipper, and always was one, from the begining, far before I discovered fandom.
My name is Estrella, I am 26, ans I am from Montevideo, Uruguay. English is NOT my native tongue, so I apologize in advance for my grammatical and spelling mistakes.
Well, now on topic, I wanted to add some extra comments to a little part of the great post FlyingPhoenix sent, answering Avada Kedabra post.


<snip>
Quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by AK
I personally think she did not notice it- I think Hermione is concerned about the H/C relationship up to the point for Harry's well being, but NOT the overall H/C success. Hence, she will not be at hand, with a clipboard and intensively analysing every single move or interaction. I think she *was* being genuine at that point.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
This still not an explaination why Hermione is brightly. Thats kinda strange if that did fit to that what you say. If someone is worried about someone else relationship I'm sure this one don't look brightly or ask brightly.


First of all, I will quote the scene where Hermione asks Harry about his date for future reference:

From OotP, Ch 26, Seen and Unforeseen
Cho Chang walked into the Hall with her friend Marietta. Harry's stomach gave an unpleasant lurch, but she did not look over at the Gryffindor table, and sat down with her back to him.
'Oh, I forgot to ask you,' said Hermione brightly, glancing over at the Ravenclaw table, 'what happened on your date with Cho? How come you were back so early?'
'Er… well, it was…' said Harry, pulling a dish of rhubarb crumble towards him and helping himself to seconds, 'a complete fiasco, now you mention it.'


Here I see an important detail in this scene people tends to forget. What happens right before Hermione asks Harry about his date with Cho?
Cho passes by with Marietta, totally ignoring Harry, not even looking at him, and sits with her back to him. In the way that it is written, it seems like it was the view of Cho what inspired Hermione to ask Harry about his date with Cho. Now Cho was acting indifferent and distant with Harry (ignoring him, not looking at him, and sitting with her back to him), so it doesn't take a genious to guess H/C date went wrong. Hermione just saw that when she asks, even she seems to have the idea of asking Harry, reminded by the view of Cho, and still she asks *brightly* Harry about his date with her. Now, this is very odd. I mean, even if Hermione didn't notice before that Harry getting early to their appointment was a sign that something went wrong in H/C date, after seeing Cho cold attitude towards Harry she obviously joined the clues and reckoned the date went wrong. I mean, she even mentions it in her asking, she says "what happened on your date with Cho? How come you were back so early?". And here it comes the weird part. Hermione seems to suspect H/C date went wrong, but she doesn't sound *worried* but instead *brightly*. Why if Hermione wished to help H/C to get together wasn't she worried about the possibility of H/C date going wrong? And why instead Hermione asked Harry in a *brightly* tone instead? It doesn't make sense, if Hermione's feelings for Harry are purely platonic. However, if Hermione was jealous of H/C and felt relieved at the signs of H/C fiasco, the scene is perfectly explained. The idea of Hermione not realizing before asking about H/C fiasco is not correct since Hermione obviously realized of something wrong with H/C date when she decided to ask Harry, as she reminds to ask Harry about it after she sees Cho entering the Great Hall and acting indifferently to Harry, and Hermione obviously related Harry had been to early at their Hogsmeade appointment with Cho's attitude and the posibility of something going wrong, since she even mentions it in her question.

Well, that's all for now.
See you,
:cool:
esicardi

PS: :clap: Great posts everyone. I love to read this forum, and I will love to participate since now in it. :)

[FlyingPhoenix]

:welcome: duynd. First HMS Harmony is that ship where all H/Hr shipper on it. If you like go on my sig and click at HMS Harmony there you got a file where all scenes from book1 till 4 are debattet.

And about your english its quiet well.

Moreover, I think Ron is the one who tends to chose “what is easy”. In book 5 “what is easy” is being a friend who always agree with Harry and let him do whatever he wants. It seems that Ron want to satisfy Harry more than to protect him.

Thats right, thats how I see it too the reason for that is the fight in GoF with Harry.

EDIT: :welcome: esicardi at cosforum nise to see you here

[MoF]

Being smart doesn't guaranteed that she be good at dueling.

No, just because you're smart it doesn't necessarily
mean that you are a good at dueling. But, even though we know that Hermione was a bit scared when in the DoM, she does some nice tricks:
She marks the doors in order for them to recognize the doors they have already ben through; she gets Harry away from the archway; she retrieves Harry's wand after Neville had tried to use Expelliarmus on a DE; She (maybe accidentally) renders a DE helpless when it gets a baby head; She silences a DE crying for help, before she is finally knocked unconcious by a spell from a DE (which was not a regular stunning spell, it was described differently).
I'm not saying that Hermione is a superhero equaling Harry, but i do think it is a mistake to say she is usleless in tight situations.

And a warm welcome to duynd and esicardi :welcome: I have rarely seen people fro outside America/Europe posting here.

[Mad Eye Mike]

No the whole thing about Cho in the DA is that she though Hermione wanted to be the leader and Cho CLEARLY though that Harry should be the leader. If you notice even though Hermione only wanted to voice it out properly Cho ended up winning and Harry ended up being the leader.


Cho didn't 'win' anything because it was NOT a real vote. It was a formality vote. It's only purpose was to 'officially' make Harry leader - even though he already was for all intents and purposes. By making everyone openly acknowledge Harry was the boss, it ensured no one could question it later on. Hermione knew if they didn't make it formal, problems could arise. Someone, somewhere down the line (the Smith kid probably) would've said to Harry "Well who decided you were the leader? We never voted on it."

Going through that formality means no one could say they never voted on it. If the students had said "We don't think Harry should be the leader" guess what? There wouldn't have been a DADA class. The only reason those students participated was because they wanted to learn DADA from Harry as he was the only one qualified to teach them. Not Ron, not Hermione, not Ginny, not Luna - Harry. Thus, by that simple fact alone, Harry was already the leader. This 'vote' just made it official.


No Ginny was mention in the spells also. And I have no doubt that she could have and that a bat bogey hex on Umbridge would have been lovely to see.


How do you know the bat boogie Hex would've worked on Umbridge - a fully grown and experienced witch? Is there any text evidence anywhere to support this claim that Ginny's spell would've taken out Umbridge and saved the day?


Yes we have. Ginny only got a broken ankle (because Luna broke it)and recover from the stunner fairly fast. Poor Hermione was the first one to be black out. Being smart doesn't guaranteed that she be good at dueling.


1. Hermione was hit with an unknown spell and that's why she went down. Notice how she didn't get taken down by a simple stunner, no it took a much bigger spell to drop Hermione.

2. Hermione did alot more than anyone (including Harry) before that DE took her out. Everyone except Harry got knocked out at some point. Neville was made to dance; Luna and Ginny - stunners; Ron some type of laughing spell and Hermione an unknown spell. Just because Hermione was taken out first doesn't lessen her contributions. At least she actually did something in the DoM which brings me to...

3. Ginny. She did absolutely nothing before she went down - nothing. Ginny (and Ron) were useless in that whole DoM chapter. Harry might as well have brought Crookshanks and Hedwig along instead.

4. If Ginny is so good at dueling, she never would've gotten smacked in the face with a stunner in the first place. She would've blocked or repelled the spell. I mean, it's not like she waves her wand with her ankle. As such, she was too busy worried about Ron and *BAM*, she took a slapshot to the face and got taken out.


esicardi and duynd - :welcome: to the thread.

[AvadaKedavra]

First things first.

Once is funny :lol:

twice is going too far.

The artist who drew those pictures is an avid R/Hr shipper and I am sure if she saw the way in which those pictures have been manipulated then she would be deeply dismayed.

I got the joke the first time around, and changed my sig, ignoring the fact that some people continued to keep a mock up of my signature.

There wasn't any problem by this, but when people continue to make a mockery of my signatures and twist them, it can be quite hurtful and insulting. I don't know who is copying them,doctoring them and passing them on, but I have my suspicions. I would like to ask people to stop doing this, and to remove all mock ups of my signature, as it really is getting a little bit too far, and is unfair.

Of course, I have no power over you, but this is a request.

If you like the art contained in my pictures, let it be. I am sure that there are zillions of talented H/Hr artists out there, who would be happy to supply their art. Make a little effort and search through the web, like I did, instead of pinching mine and photoshopping them up.

Ok, now I've got my point out of the way, back to the debate.

Hermione's voice. All I can say is that to reiterate what Turambar said.

He also realises by the end that she is more often than not right and that he should listen to her and that she has his best interests at heart.

We, the readers, have always known this- i.e. the firebolt episode. Harry realising this means that Harry realised this. It does not mean that Harry realised that he likes Hermione.

Note- Turambar said that Harry realised he should. We all know that we should do this and that, but we don't always. Read on.

Even though Harry has "realised"- (when I say "realised" I mean that we know now that he knows) all of this about Hermione, it does not necessarily mean his attitude to Hermione when she confronts him will change completely. Even though Harry knows something is wrong, and Hermione may be wiser, HE WILL STILL plough on regardless, because that's what is in his heart. A true Gryffindor.

I made a point earlier on about Ron still standing by Harry, even though it might become a total mess-up, because Ron knows it is useless to try and change Harry's mind. It is not a matter of what is "easy". Is Ron really 100% wrong? Is he at blame? Harry is SET on things.

Hermione, on the other hand, needs to do some "realising" herself. She needs to realise that "nagging" and "hissing" at people simply won't work, and different approaches need to be devised. In short, Hermione needs to change her confronting "attitude".

If you're going down the "he-realises-a-bit-more-every-book-therefore-he-will-realise-something-more-in-the-next-few-books-and-this-will-be-his-feelings-for-hermione", road, be careful.

If this theory was to be applied loosely to Ron,

(GoF) Harry realises that Ron is sometimes jealous of him and can be selfish sometimes.

(OoTP) Harry realises that Ron is more mature and his own person now.

I could then assume, in the sixth and seventh books Harry will realise that Ron is the "next dumbledore" in terms of maturity and wisdom, because of his growing maturity. But I won't.

(Slightly off topic)

Notice that Harry has had his MAJOR bust up with Ron. This was "once"- and didn't speak to him for a long period. But that's out of the way now. Harry has a lot of periods of "not speaking" to Hermione, even in OOTP- is this healthy?

Signing out,

Avada

[shanobyl]

excellent theory sone. i agree with you coz that's definitely what a girl has going through her mind when their crush likes someone else. and for someone as shy as hermy, the sewing thing is an excellent outlet!

good thinkin!

[erroom_potter]

3. Ginny. She did absolutely nothing before she went down - nothing. Ginny (and Ron) were useless in that whole DoM chapter. Harry might as well have brought Crookshanks and Hedwig along instead.
:clap: MEM :clap: :clap:

[Mega]

Is it me or do H/Hr shippers outnumber R/H shippers by miles of this thread? New H/Hr shippers seem to be joining up every minute.

[October]

Is it me or do H/Hr shippers outnumber R/H shippers by miles of this thread? New H/Hr shippers seem to be joining up every minute.

Delurking to say yes, it does seem that way. But if that's true, this is one of the few places that's like this. H/Hr shippers seem to be quite outnumbered in most other forums that are open.

[Elanoria]

I'm sure this has been mentioned many times; however, my guess for the most likely couple is Ron and Hermione. He shows all the symptoms for a boy with a crush; anger and jealousy (the Hermione and Krum thing), and as a general rule, boys don't give gals things like perfume unless they're interested :) (Xmas OotP). I think he might have gained admiration for her, which metamorphosized into greated feelings, through all those times that Rowling wrote of his awe in result of her actions.

Although Harry and Hermione seems like a possibility, I personally don't think it'll happen. First off, it's too cliche. It's the pairing that everyone expects. I don't think that it will support the story and help any of the characters in anyway. Although she helps Harry with his love problems, I stick with my opinion that Hermione makes a better best friend and advisor and a girlfriend in general.

[GilyAnn]

Quick reply since I'm short on time

Ginny was also the one who realized that the doors closed to unable them to know which door they came out off.

The fact that Hermione and Ron were both the firsts one's out of the whole dueling says a little bit that jkr plans on separating Ron and Hermione from Harry. Hermione is the first one out and Ron the second one out. Last book Harry faced Voldemort alone. The fact that Harry this time around couldnt be with his two sidekicks basicly tells you the jkr is starting to desintegrate the trio. Ginny went in and out and only got one stunner(which she recover rather quickly. Didn't stunners require an Ennervate charm?) and a broken ankle. Neville was there until the end and got also hexed. Luna was out by then. In the end jkr left Harry and Neville, Ginny woke up just when Harry was passing her by. This says a lot. Ron, Luna and Ginny were among the 5 that help break the spheres and fought the death eaters without any one help, Luna and Neville bewitched the doors and Ginny shouted to Harry who didn't know what the brains would do to Ron that he it will suffocate him. If we are going to talk about useless to support a ship. Hermione was the first one out and Neville carried her. So maybe in the end we will have Hr/N.

Gily Ann

[EricaM]

Although Harry and Hermione seems like a possibility, I personally don't think it'll happen. First off, it's too cliche. It's the pairing that everyone expects. I don't think that it will support the story and help any of the characters in anyway. Although she helps Harry with his love problems, I stick with my opinion that Hermione makes a better best friend and advisor and a girlfriend in general.


I'm curious, how do you think that Hermione's role of best friend and advisor change if she were to become Harry's girlfriend?

Erica

[FlyingPhoenix]

I disagree, what a surprise.

Hermione was especially in front of Harry knocked out because he needed to realise that he put them all in danger and Sirius wasn't even there. It had to be Hermione because she was the only one who did doubt that Sirius was ever in Voldemorts hands. Its rather strange that Ron and Ginny were injured as Harry wasn't around so he wouldn't see how they get hit by this spells. But by Hermione was it different she was hit directly in front of Harry so he would think and pray she isn't dead.

Thats for sure not an image what suggest that Harry will turn from Ron and Hermione to Ginny and Neville. Its quiet different thats show how close this two are to Harry. Both were very much injured only one person was worst and that is Sirius who died. So I just don't see that this are signs that JKR will write Ginny more important to Harry.
JKR is still on her path to write Hermione more important as in her books before. In every book she got more important parts. In OotP was she the one which suggested DA and that did a great deal through the whole book.

[sone]

excellent theory sone. i agree with you coz that's definitely what a girl has going through her mind when their crush likes someone else. and for someone as shy as hermy, the sewing thing is an excellent outlet!

good thinkin!

Thanks shanobyl. It is also interesting that while Hermione has Viktor and Harry has Cho, they are still close to each other. If Viktor, Ginny, Ron or Cho saw Hermione clinging on to Harry behind the tree when Grawp was trying to grab her, they would be furious with jealousy. All simply because they cannot get that same comfort from Harry and Hermione. It seems to come all too natural for them.

[Fairydust]

It is also interesting that while Hermione has Viktor and Harry has Cho, they are still close to each other. If Viktor, Ginny, Ron or Cho saw Hermione clinging on to Harry behind the tree when Grawp was trying to grab her, they would be furious with jealousy. All simply because they cannot get that same comfort from Harry and Hermione. It seems to come all too natural for them.

are you saying that if you came face to face with a scary giant you wouldn't cling on to one of your best friends? Hermione seems to cling on to both Ron and Harry when she's freaked out about things.

[sone]

No. I am saying between Viktor, Ron and Harry, Hermione would go to Harry first for comfort. She always does. I do not remember reading anywhere Hermione grabbing Ron's arm when she is afraid.

[GilyAnn]

are you saying that if you came face to face with a scary giant you wouldn't cling on to one of your best friends? Hermione seems to cling on to both Ron and Harry when she's freaked out about things.

Hermione cling on to Ginny also. I don't see how clinging on to someone is a sign of love. It just mean that you are nervous.

Gily Ann

Edit:
Hermione was especially in front of Harry knocked out because he needed to realise that he put them all in danger and Sirius wasn't even there. It had to be Hermione because she was the only one who did doubt that Sirius was ever in Voldemorts hands. Its rather strange that Ron and Ginny were injured as Harry wasn't around so he wouldn't see how they get hit by this spells. But by Hermione was it different she was hit directly in front of Harry so he would think and pray she isn't dead.

No Hermione was on Harry's side. Not in front of him. And it's not strange jkr didn't want the readers to know for some reason that she only knows how did they got injured. But we do know how Ginny got injured, Ron we don't know how. BTW nice selfish reaction of Harry upon seeing Hermione getting hexed.

Thats for sure not an image what suggest that Harry will turn from Ron and Hermione to Ginny and Neville. Its quiet different thats show how close this two are to Harry. Both were very much injured only one person was worst and that is Sirius who died. So I just don't see that this are signs that JKR will write Ginny more important to Harry.

jkr is separating the trio. She is opening the horizons and opening Harry's circle.

Gily Ann

[Fairydust]

Hermione cling on to Ginny also. I don't see how clinging on to someone is a sign of love. It just mean that you are nervous.

I totally agree GilyAnn. :agree:

[Daveydee]

R/Hr & H/Hr signature pics

First things first.

The artist who drew those pictures is an avid R/Hr shipper and I am sure if she saw the way in which those pictures have been manipulated then she would be deeply dismayed.

I got the joke the first time around, and changed my sig, ignoring the fact that some people continued to keep a mock up of my signature.

There wasn't any problem by this, but when people continue to make a mockery of my signatures and twist them, it can be quite hurtful and insulting. I don't know who is copying them,doctoring them and passing them on, but I have my suspicions. I would like to ask people to stop doing this, and to remove all mock ups of my signature, as it really is getting a little bit too far, and is unfair.

Of course, I have no power over you, but this is a request.

Well said Avada.

It really is bad form to take somebody's lovingly created hard work and adulterate it in that way - regardless of whether or not you agree with the content. What is really surprising is that most of those who have these abortions in their signatures are generally highly regarded here. What is doubly surprising is that there must be reams of genuine H/Hr fan art on the net, and it would require very little effort on the part of those who wish to use such signatures to spend a few moments looking for it.

For anybody who is interested here is the link to the site from where the original artwork came. It's not a shipping site but I recommend all to take a look.


www.artdungeon.net (http://www.artdungeon.net)

[FlyingPhoenix]

Ginny is clinging on Hermione thats slightly different. Its natural that humans cling on that person where they think they get the best comfort or the best savety.

Edit: There very nice pics out there which are H/Hr. Maybe I show some as my avatar ;)

[Fairydust]

Those are great pictures. Wow. the person who does them is a great artist. and an R/H shipper yea! :p

[GilyAnn]

Ginny is clinging on Hermione thats slightly different. Its natural that humans cling on that person where they think they get the best comfort or the best savety.

Ok this worries me! First for the implications that we can't discouss and then for the fact that Hermione feels safe with Ginny. If that's so, then thank you for accepting my point then. Because then Hermione feels safe around Ginny which implicates that Ginny is powerfull.


Gily Ann

[FlyingPhoenix]

No thats exactly the other way around Ginny feels save if she is with Hermione. That say Hermione is powerful enough to protect her

[GilyAnn]

You guys said that Hermione clings on to Harry because she feels safe and in that scene is Hermione the one who clings on to Ginny not the other way around. Just like she grabs Harry she grabs Ginny.

Gily Ann

[Fairydust]

No thats exactly the other way around Ginny feels save if she is with Hermione. That say Hermione is powerful enough to protect her

What? Ginny is a powerful enough witch and doesn't need protection or to feel safe with anyone. Fred and George even said she was a powerful witch on her own. Even in the MoM Ginny didn't want help. She only took help from Luna because her ankle was broken and she would have fell down. Ginny's a powerful witch. and no where does it say that Ginny feels safe with Hermione. nor is it expressed anywhere that Ginny feels safe with Hermione. :)

[EricaM]

Hermione cling on to Ginny also. I don't see how clinging on to someone is a sign of love. It just mean that you are nervous.

Gily Ann


That's not the point. JKR purposely put Hermione in stituations where Harry moves to protect her. He does it instinctively. In the MoM, he's not playing the hero, grabbing at a generic anyone to pull them out of harms way, he reaches for Hermione in particular. He was standing in front of Ginny, yet when the shards start to fly, he yells for everyone to Run! but it's Hermione that he grabs to help along. And it's not because he thinks that she needs the help (i.e. doubts her abilities) since before they even set off for the MoM, it's Ginny, Neville and Luna's ability he doubts, not Hermione's.

JKR built Ginny up perfectly to be the one to help Harry when caught by Umbridge. We saw how smooth she is at lying (spinning that yarn about Crookshanks and the dungbombs to her mum). When talking to Harry about contacting Sirius, says something to the effect of, hanging around the twins, you start to think that anything is possible, that if you want something bad enough you can make it happen.

Why then, does JKR not build on this and have Ginny protest at Harry's being Crucio'ed. Why wasn't she the one to think up the lie for Umbridge (she's obviously good at it). Why wasn't she the one to think of the Forbidden Forest plan on the fly, (she need not have known about Grawp or the Centaurs before hand).

JKR has made Hermione, a pivotal/significant person in Harry's life. Yes Ginny did some things to help him along, but then so did Luna, and Neville etc. By the end of OotP, Harry's sphere of friends and helpers increases exponentially with the 'Order' and with the DA (it was the 'non-sextet' members of the DA that came to Harry's aid on the train ride home). However, with all these people helping him out, Hermione is the only one who we've seen actually affect him, it's her voice he hears etc.

Erica

p.s. wasn't Sirius killed by the same curse that felled Hermione? I thought this was the case, the two of the significant persons in Harry's life where delt the same blow eventhough it was only fatal for one of them

[evaluna]

Great posts all! I’m away a day and now so much to say…
Hawk 92 – my fearless MI6 leader of yore…please don’t be a stranger…and remember that we will always have your back… *extends astral protection and defense from Auror Division of the HMS Harmony to encompass the boundaries of the HMS Hawksnest*

Onward through the fog…

Original post by Turambar

Posted by Evaluna:
Moreover, of all the persons on Harry's "list", only Hermione is near and dear to him. Only Hermione is a person he admires and respects highly, a best friend, and someone he thinks about and upon whose form he dwells start-to-end in OoP, whether awake or dreaming. Only Hermione's voice whispers to him inside. And nowhere across the series was there a description of any female to rival the GoF Yule Ball scene when Hermione makes her entrance (lengthy description of Hermione, and Harry's "jaw dropped").
xxxxxx
Just to add to your observation Evaluna but Hermione is also notably the girl Harry understands.
A lot is made in OOTP of him being clueless about Cho, what she's thinking, what she's meaning.
But Harry knows Hermione better than anyone else including Ginny, apparently her female best friend, and Ron her other male best friend.
There are three scenes:
1) Harry's scar hurting at 12 Grimmauld Pl
2) Malfoy's "dogging" comment
3) When Hermione is trying to trick Umbridge
which clearly show H/Hr understanding each other while Ron and Ginny are present but clueless as to what H/Hr are thinking.

Turambar, agreed! In fact Hermione is the only female that Harry seems to understand intuitively. Again, his hearing Hermione’s voice speaking to him inside his head has meaning on several levels, and this can be seen as one of them: that is, Harry and Hermione have an intuitive understanding that goes beyone space and time – symbolically, as has been noted, Hermione doesn’t even have to be physically present for Harry to “know” or understand her perspective.


Original post by noddwyd
Ginny, actually. Oh, and ot, but I think the reason Neville's gotten better at everything this year, is due to that plant he's got. the mimbulus mimblutonia, which is latin for "immitation of something praiseworthy" or something to that effect. I think the stinksap can be used in some kind of confidence or courage boosting potion, or something.

noddwyd, on Neville – his memory problems do seem hugely improved, don’t they? The plant seems almost a counterjinx to what almost surely was ill magic perfomed on Neville’s memory as an infant or young child, IMO. Perhaps now that Neville can get a better grasp on reality, i.e. Now that Neville can “see” the world, so too we can see [the real] Neville?

Re: on why non-shippers tend a certain way? I was a nonshipper for quite some time but leaned H/Hr after reading OoP. Not sure if that holds for everyone. Though I could never stomach the thought of Ron and Hermione, based on their mutual disregard, and their conflicting natures and interaction. But I think that for me the appeal is the selflessness and protectiveness Harry and Hermione show [and consistently have done] toward one another when the other’s life, the other’s very existence is at stake. Not that they aren’t human and not that they don’t show emotion or vulnerabilities. They do. Nonetheless, they have each for the other shown that they do not hestitate to sacrifice themselves for the sake of the other. The depth and purity of what seems to me a very true love is all the more real IMO because they seem to fight so hard against it. And this too is natural, because this kind of thing is lifechanging, and it is gutwrenching, because it can’t be ignored but rather only denied or acknowledged. It’s not soft and pretty, it’s rather like Dumbledore said, a force both awesome and terrible, but if handled with integrity and respect [re: Draco & Hippogriff as what not to do] then it reveals itself to be a force of great power and beauty nonetheless. Anyway IMHO. See below.

Original post by Falcon
See Gily, I don't think she will use "overused or cheap" themes either. I believe that when the Love between Harry and Hermione becomes known to them, it will be more beautiful and powerful than anything the WW has ever seen.

Absolutely, yeah. What he said!!!


Original post by Flying Phoenix

To this come that since the Yule Ball Ginny is changing, is changing to her normal self and Neville is in OotP changing into something more as a nearlly squib. So both are changing in the direction of the other one. I really doubt JKR did let change or wake Ginny up because of Harry its because of Neville.

FP, I never thought of it like this but I agree! Neville has arguably shown interest in Ginny since GoF [after being turned down by Hermione and moving on – so perhaps Neville’s a bit quicker on the uptake than we think, yeah?] and she has shown some protectiveness toward him, meaning that at least she values his friendship and respects him. I think that as Neville comes into his own, he is drawing the attention and continuing to earn the regard of Ginny. And my guess is he will continue to do so.


Original post by Flying Phoenix

One of your best friends is Harry Potter. The guy who did survive the dead-curse. Now your 4th year is to end. After three years where you had adventures beyond your imagination and where you see more as once in how much danger he was. By the way he was always closer to you as Ron. Not because you did like him more. No, because he has a muggle background. He is in the same way new in this world like you. You discover this world together with Harry though you know more as him just because you did read all this stuff already but still if you see it real its still something special. Thats why you don't need to proof things for Harry but by Ron because he did grow up in a wizard family. For him isn't everything new, he is used by all this stuff.

FP, I really loved your post re: Hermione’s POV. I think you are correct. I think Hermione feels that all she is [an outsider, muggleborn] and all she stands for [against racism and prejudice] is validated in Harry Potter, and not because he’s the boy who lived. Rather, she values in Harry the most intrinsic part of him, the part that was always there before wizardry, fame, and Hogwarts. This is the part that stands up to injustice, that fights for right, that is compassionate, inclusive, and sees beyond categories to the heart of persons, to their characters. This is symbolised in the Troll scene at Halloween in PS/SS that you’ve discussed so well, where it’s Harry who says they must find and tell Hermione about the danger. Harry’s compassion and lack of prejudice or judgment are revealed here [from the start, Harry never put her down for being bookish or different – note after PS/SS charms class, he tells Ron that he thinks Hermione overhead his snarky comments – even here, Harry is concerned and compassionate regarding her feelings] and this reflects just his basic nature, as he barely knew Hermione then. IMO because of who she is at heart, because of her very nature and her intrinsic values, Hermione can’t help but be drawn to Harry, to his very nature and his intrinsic values. I think Hermione needs Harry in the most basic, life-affirming way, and in OoP she becomes fully aware of just how much. In OoP, I think we are seeing Harry slowly begin to realise the same.

I think we have some good posts back on the old thread on this. Maybe we should repost a few ;)?
BTW, FP I think your avatar is awesome, toothy smiles and all;)
EDIT: oops I see you have a new one already!


[i]Original post by Flying Phoenix [/i]

[quote]Between isn't it ironic thats Voldemort guilt that Harry is friend with Hermione? Wouldn't Voldemort turn up in PS/SS Harry were never be friend with her.
Wait thats another strange connection to Voldi. I think this fit into my theory. [/quote]

FP: Yes! Further underscoring the importance of [i]Hermione[/i] to Harry in overcoming Voldy.
Can’t wait for more on your theory in future!


[i]Original post by AvadaKedavra[/i]

[quote]I think Harry knows of Ron's feelings for Hermione. Let's assume that Hermione makes a move on Harry, and Harry knows Ron still likes Hermione. Will Harry brush aside HIS BEST FRIEND IN THE WHOLE WORLD'S feelings aside and go ahead anyway?[/quote]

[b]AK[/b], many have addressed this well. Let me just ask you to read my conversational response to noddwyd addressing why I took my decision after OoP. In particular, read the last few bits, and then ask yourself if in fact Harry does love Hermione, if he truly loves her, whether all the denial in the world will change the situation for better. Harry may deny his feelings, yes. He may do, but at the cost of his very soul. Is that what a best friend would want for him? And even if Ron feels the same [not sure of this myself…tend toward more of a crush for Ron] – but assuming he does, would Ron wish that sort of agony on his worst enemy? For Ron’s sake, I hope not, because deriving pleasure from the suffering of others is a serious character flaw and the first step on the path to the dark side. There’s no concise word in English. Sadism is not quite it. The Germans call it schadenfreude, and it’s considered a low and scornful trait, one that should be mastered and controlled if present. No one, not Ron and not anyone else either, should indulge this weakness, because the cost could be their very soul. Interesting, that Harry’s denial of love could lead him to despair at the cost of his soul, whilst Ron’s potential joy in Harry’s suffering [as a result of Harry denying love] could lead Ron down the path of envy, fear, and hatred [they are a worst-case logical progression] and could cost Ron his own soul. Just a thought…

EDIT: And BTW it is exactly this pleasure in the suffering of others [in far greater amounts, of course] than makes both Bellatrix [i]and[/i] Umbridge so dangerous, despite the fact that otherwise Umbridge may be a very ordinary witch. It is her darkness that gives her power to perform the unforgivable curses, and it is this which makes her dangerous. I don't think anyone present in the room other than Umbridge could have performed the Cruciatus curse, and I think Hermione rightly realised this in an instant. I won't discuss further the soundness of her actions based on the information at hand, because so many others have done already.


[i]Original post by diam0ndGrrl [/i]

[quote]In addition, we can't all say "Harry wouldn't be hurt if R/Hr got together, he doesn't care at all". "That's another reason why Ron/Hermione should be together." I'd like to point out that we don't know Harry wouldn't be upset. In OotP, Harry was very angry that he was left out so much from the trio. He grilled Hermione on what they had been doing together, acting very suspiciously. He was so angry at the thought of them having fun together, that he threw out their birthday presents for him. If R/H did get together, that would mean alot of alone time away from Harry, and he might not take this as calmly as you think.[/quote]

[b]dG[/b], per above, I agree.


[i]Original post by Turambar [/i]

[quote]I just thought of another possible Harry/Cho and Hermione/Krum parallel:
Krum came on emotionally strong to Hermione telling her she was the most wonderful girl he'd met and inviting her to Bulgaria. Cho came on emotionally strong to Harry, crying and wanting heart to heart chats.
Actually just after Krum tells Hermione this we see her cheering Harry on when he comes out of the lake, and of course just after Cho has her big moment with Harry in the cafe, Harry goes and sees Hermione.
Harry was repulsed by Cho's emotion, Hermione didn't go to Bulgaria and seemed slightly irritated by Krum at the Lake Task.
Both had the same response of not wanting to let their admirer in close. They are both pretty reserved people and while they don't seem to mind being vulnerable at times to each other, they find it more difficult with others.[/quote]

Turambar: I agree & this is a fascinating angle that I hope you explore further! I think their mutual difficulties in this regard, and their eventual ability to overcome their own natural reserve toward one another [outside of critical situations, where they do already instinctively reach for one another], will be critical for Harry and Hermione’s physical and emotional survival.

Also, the voice in Harry’s head whispering “reckless” indicated to me that even though he may not have consciously recognised it as Hermione just yet, nonetheless Harry was aware on some level, through Hermione’s concern for him, that he needed to take care of himself, so that he could in turn take care of his larger obligation to the DA cause and all its members who were depending on him. I need to go hunting now to see where this type of thing might have occurred prior to OoP but you’ve got me thinking.

Perhaps this is one of the first signs in canon of Hermione's love for Harry transforming him and allowing him to feel and act on that same kind of love, projected outwardly as a universal love for others. Not to reach too far, but the symbolism is deep here.


[i]Original post by Turambar [/i]

[quote]Why not leave them puttering along with their nice 'platonic' little friendship?[/quote]

And as for the last, your lovely rhetorical question speaks for itself, IMO ;)


Also:
[b]HayCheng![/b] Welcome back and great observation on Hermione, SPEW, principle and tactics.

[b]FP, MEM, Mega, Sone, et al [/b]– great defense of Hermione in combat/DoM and great point, MEM re: canon detail that Ginny and Ron simply did not come through in the DoM. There is no doubt a reason JKR portrayed this as such.
P.S.: FP if you know of some good h/hr artistic sites, could you post for us as I trust your taste? Thanks so much!

And welcome [b]duynd, esicardi, and everyone else who joined or posted[/b] during the past 24 hrs I’ve been away :)

[AvadaKedavra]

Being outnumbered doesn't necessarily mean that R/Hr is less likely. In fact, I stick around here because the counter arguments that are thrown back at me help me analyse this from more than one perspective, improving my overall vision of R/Hr.

Davydee, nice avatar. It's nice to see that you've finally got one. :D (BTW, When you become third year, are you allowed to have one?)

Flying Phoenix

JKR was p.l.a.y.i.n.g with us. She made a dramatized reaction from Harry so that we would jump up and cry "good lord! Hermione's the one to die! I never saw that coming!". Well, perhaps it didn't work with you, but it certainly did with me. I thought it was Hagrid, then Ron,then Mr Weasley, then Sirius, then Hermione, then possibly Ron again, then Tonks before I knew.

[Mega]

AV I never said that because H/Hr where getting more shippers that it was more likley. You came up with that. It's just that for the last 2 years it's seemed that R/Hr has had more fans. But since OotP I'v seen more H/Hr feans emerge and I think they are catching up (I'm not just talking about the CoS forums, the whole web).

[Buckbeak]

Wow, im gone for a day and already three or four pages have gone by, i have no idea what people are talking about when they say MI6 devision or what ever it is, so i won't comment on that. :scared:

Anyway can i just say that, even though im a trio stay together as friends shipper, i definatly prefer H/Hr, not only because its nicer but also i just can't picture Ron and Hermione lasting more than three seconds, four at the most.
Yeah Ron likes Hermione, but which strikes me as odd about that is that he only really makes it obvious when Krum is the subject of conversation, i mean in GOF he didn't show any feelings, that i will accept as more than just friendship stuff, that he likes her until he found out about her and Krum. Then in OoTP he was fine with her until she mentioned Krum again and started acting all jealous, i mean if he's going to be like this when their just friends imagine what he'll be like if they go out, i don't suppose he'll even let her talk to Professor Flitwick without his supervison. My point is that if Ron and Hermione is going to happen Ron is going to have to change alot, which is sad cause he has a special character and by changing he will be different and probably not as lovable, but as he is, he doesn't go with Hermione's character, and because i don't want her to change either, your going to have to accept that this R/Hr relationship is doomed even before it has begun.
Of course this is based on if Hermione even likes Ron, which IMO she doesn't, and no amount of evedence that R/Hr shippers have managed to produce so far to convince me otherwise is going to change my view on that.
Hermione and Ron are best friends, as for Hermione and Harry, well their even better friends and much more likely to happen.
These are only my thoughts, nothing more, seeing as i can't pridict the future yet, but im practising, so we may know soon enough. ;)
that is all.

[Mega]

Fred and George even said she was a powerful witch on her own.

No. They just said she could do a good bogie hex. Theirs a big difference to being able to do one good hex and being a powerful witch. Theirs has been no evidence in the books that say that Ginny's abilitys are above avrage (unlike Hermione who is constinatly parised and seems to get every spell right first time).

[AvadaKedavra]

Mega,

I know that you didnt say anything about the likelihood of this and that, but this is a place for attempting to come up with evidence which increases the likelihood of a particular ship.

Back on topic

Sorry, but I got the impression from Book 2 that Hermione sucked at duelling- Milicent Bulstrode overpowered her. Hermione is good at thinking spells that are non combatory but when she is FACE to FACE with someone, duelling, she's not the person that I'd put my betting money on. I would, although, place a fiver on Ginny. :D

Signing out,

Avada

[Mega]

If Hermione is only good at spells that are non combatory then how come she is the second best in DATDA? The subject has alot of pratical work that you have to use combatory spells. I think Hermione would be able to disable Ginny before she could even flick her wand.

[Fairydust]

Mega,

I know that you didnt say anything about the likelihood of this and that, but this is a place for attempting to come up with evidence which increases the likelihood of a particular ship.

Back on topic

Sorry, but I got the impression from Book 2 that Hermione sucked at duelling- Milicent Bulstrode overpowered her. Hermione is good at thinking spells that are non combatory but when she is FACE to FACE with someone, duelling, she's not the person that I'd put my betting money on. I would, although, place a fiver on Ginny. :D

Signing out,

Avada

I totally agree. Hermione is smart, no doubt about it. But when she's faced with fighting people and using spells against people she doesn't do well. Ginny on the other hand can duel. She was the one that took Malfoy on.

Quote from the book. "...size is no guarantee of power." "Yeah look at Ginny". "What do you mean?" (Harry). "You've never been on the recieving end of her bat bogey hex..."

It basically says that Ginny's a powerful witch. and her bat bogey hex is particualry strong. Fred and George speak fairly high of her and for them to speak of Ginny so high is a great feat. Ginny's a powerful witch.

anyhoo, shipper debate, I don't think that JK would go so far to forge a bond between Harry and Ginny if nothing more was going to come of it. I mean, after the second book Ginny could have become a smaller and smaller character, but she's been thrust into the book and has become a bigger and bigger character. and Harry seems to notice her even when she's barely there he seems to notice things that she does. i think something is there.

[FlyingPhoenix]

What? Ginny is a powerful enough witch and doesn't need protection or to feel safe with anyone. Fred and George even said she was a powerful witch on her own. Even in the MoM Ginny didn't want help. She only took help from Luna because her ankle was broken and she would have fell down. Ginny's a powerful witch. and no where does it say that Ginny feels safe with Hermione. nor is it expressed anywhere that Ginny feels safe with Hermione.

In PoA as Ginny was in the train and on the edge of her strength was it Hermione who hold her. Who gave her strength and not Ron. So Hermione did gave her savety and a helping hand. Hermione do give her protection after the dementor was in there compartment. That say to me she feels safe with Hermione. Especially if her own brother is in the same compartment is it Hermione who dos that.
Powerful is the wrong word if she can one spell or one charm pretty good this say nothing only that she can this one well. Powerful witch is McGonagall but not Ginny not yet. She didn't show a sign that she is that powerful.

Now if you search after an avatar or sig look at this thread and check this fanart-links out if you want a pic from chamberofkey just go to this link by phoenixwriter. fanart (http://talk.portkey.org/index.php?showtopic=891&st=0)
I hope this help.

[Buckbeak]

Considering in book 2 they were all 12, its kind of unfair to judge Hermione's duelling skills by three minutes of practice.
Remember in OoTP, when they were in the department of mysteries, and they've just blown up the prophecys and are running from the death eaters, well a death eater grabs Harry and Hermione stuns him. that scene to me seemed pretty intense.

[Mega]

I totally agree. Hermione is smart, no doubt about it. But when she's faced with fighting people and using spells against people she doesn't do well.

As I said before Hermione isn't the second best in DATDA for nothing.

[FlyingPhoenix]

Hermione didn't even lose in magic abilitys she did it in a muggle way. You know in a head-lock. Sorry but we carry away.

[evaluna]

ErikaM, FP, Mega, Buckbeak -- I agree re: Hermione over Ginny. Hermione is proven on many levels and in many situations, whereas Ginny shows much potential but has simply not seen the depth and breadth of action Hermione has, therefore Ginny has not even had the opportunities to perform that Hermione has had and in which Hermione has successfully produced. JKR moreover has clearly written the books as such for a reason, and IMO the DoM scenes are critical in this regard for foreshadowing the roles and relative importance or closeness to Harry that these characters might play in future books.

That is that whilst Ginny, like Ron and perhaps other DA members, will be a solid supporter of Harry & his cause [and we all hope Ron continues to do], -- including actual combat situations as well as providing moral support -- per implications from closing DoM scenes, it is Neville [as Harry's shadow, or alter-ego of sorts] and Hermione [as Harry's partner, his complementary other half] perhaps followed by Luna [?] who will play more active roles in Harry's inner circle, protecting Harry as his last physical line of defense. Particularly if Harry tries to isolate himself in Book 6, it seems that it is most critically Hermione, followed in various ways by Neville and perhaps Luna [which IMO also implies Lupin, per my earlier essays] who will be most important in keeping Harry safe, both physically and emotionally . Earlier posts going back a few pages from many fellow shippers have outlined well those persons who were most critical to Harry in his hour of need at DoM, allowing him to survive until such time as the Order and then DD arrived.

[i]Original post by BuckBeak
These are only my thoughts, nothing more, seeing as i can't pridict the future yet, but im practising, so we may know soon enough.
that is all.

Well Buckbeak [Beaky?] I enjoy your posts but re: divination...ahem...you're a braver woman than I am. All the best but please proceed...er... cautiously...and don't wade too deeply lest you FALL IN !!! And don't be surprised if JKR comes after you ;)
Take care and cheers!

[AvadaKedavra]

Yes, we're carried away no doubt about that. But there's nothing else to discuss atm, so I'm more than happy to continue this line of argument. Plus I feel like standing up for Gily Ann, who has done the same for me. :D

Like I said, Hermione wasn't faced up to the Death Eater. She got him when he wasn't looking. DADA is a subject- theory and practical. When it comes to the real thing, one-on-one against a foe, or one-against-many foes, I'd rather Ginny than Hermione.

BTW, nice Avatar, FP. Can't say I agree with it, but I for one, can appreciate fine art when I see it, without wrecking it.

Signing out,

Avada

[FlyingPhoenix]

If this link don't work go just at www.portkey.org to the talk-board H/Hr forum and into the fanart thread there you get every art you can get. But just I said chamberofkey don't work so use the link by phoenixwriter.
Bit the link above should work I tried and it dos.

Abou this avatar I have I bet Mike know which artist it is.

Anyway back to topic. Indeed Ginny didn't has any chance to show her abilitys but to say at hand a single spell she is powerful is like to say Neville is the smartest wizard at Hogwarts because he is doing very well in one class.

EDIT: And the deatheater got Hermione as she wasn't looking. In the DoM: First Hermione fight a DE away from Harry who did hold him. Than she close the door with a spell. than again fight another DE as this one want attack Harry. Bring back Harrys wand. She silence another DE and at the moment as Hermione turned to Harry a DE did hit her with this spell. So far Hermione did rescue Harrys skin pretty often in DoM

[Ecthelion]

First of all, I fail to see how putting down Hermione because she is supposably bad at Defense against the Dark Arts is going to affect Harry's potential relationship with her.

But in case I've missed something I'd like to add that the scenes at the end of this recent book convinced me that she is a formidible opponent. Second only to Harry, I believe she may have been the one who did the most work there. I'd say she was a deciding factor there on many outcomes.

By the way: FlyingPhoenix, nice avatar! (Your link for me doesn't work though.)

And to contribute something of possible significance or absolute nonsense.....

pg. 571 US version OotP

"...so then," he finished several minutes, as the final bit of crumble disappeared, "she jumps up, right, and says ''I'll see you around, Harry," and runs out of the place!" He put down his spoon and looked at Hermione. "I mean, what was all that about? What was going on?"
Hermione glanced over at the back of Cho's head adn sighted. "Oh, Harry," she said sadly. "Well, I'm sorry, but you were a bit tactless."
"Me, tactless??" said Harry, outraged. "One minute we were getting out, and how she used to go and snog Cedric in that stupid tea shop--how was I supposed to feel about that?"
"Well, you see," said Hermione, with the patient air for one explaining that one plus one equals two to an overemotional toddler, "you shouldn't have told her that you wanted to meet me halfway through your date."
"But, but," spluttered Harry, "but--you told me to meet you at twelve and to bring her along, how was I supposed to do that without telling her--?"
"You should have told her differently," said Hermione, still with that maddeningly patient air. "You should have said it was really annoying, but I'd made you promise to come along to the Three Broomstickes, and you really didn't want to go, you''d much rather spend the whole day with her, but unfortunately you thought you really ought to meet me and would she please, please come along with you and hopefully you'd be able to get away more quickly? And it might have been a good idea to mention how ugly you think I am too," Hermione added as an afterthought.
"But I don't think you're ugly," said Harry, bemused.

Alright, this is pure speculation based on almost no facts so just hear this out. Ok, we know what Cho was trying to do to Harry. Use techniques of jealousy to find out how much Harry really likes her. Easy enough. But then we see Hermione explaining what she did and what he should have done. However, doesn't it seem as if Hermione, in the process of explaining to Harry, is doing the same thing as Cho? Why did she have to add that part about her being ugly? Harry would have perfectly understood without it. I know this is a lame observation but I can't help but think that Hermione, in her own way, tried to find out a bit about Harry's thoughts of her by the same strategy as cho....just not through jealousy.

Also GPE. :tu:

EDIT: Why is my post in here? It was about 3 posts back.....

[Mega]

Ginny has never proven herself. While Hermione has many times. It's that simple.

[MoF]

I know this is a lame observation but I can't help but think that Hermione, in her own way, tried to find out a bit about Harry's thoughts of her by the same strategy as cho....just not through jealousy.

Right you are, Ecthelion. It is also interesting that immediately after your quotes, Harry, in frustration, says something like 'Why didn't she just ask if I fancied her' and Hermione answers 'Girls don't ask question like that'. That particular comment by Hermione made me very suspicious of her answers to Harry about Cho.

And I thought by that we had cleared up by now that Hermione isn't useless when it comes to practical DADA in life-threatening situations. But if we reached agreement that easily I suppose this thread wouldn't contain hundreds of posts...

[snitch14]

Ecthelion, it's a good spotting, i got the part about brightly but i never paid attention to hermione mentioning her as being ugly. that was probably to see if harry would say she wasn't ugly. testing him, or just letting her feelings get the better of her.

now, when she said "Girls don't ask question like that", it made me think that it was like she was trying to make him see something, like she was like cho and wouldn't ask harry if she was pretty or not. if harry looked at that comment, and then back on the conversation when hermione told him bout 'ugly', he would have found a little connection.

ok, so IMP, hermione wanted to know how the date went, asking brightly, and then squeezing in, casually, the ugly part, wanting to see if harry saw her as being one.

[FlyingPhoenix]

By the way: FlyingPhoenix, nice avatar! (Your link for me doesn't work though.)

It should work, maybe you need wait some seconds because portkey is slow at times.

Anyway before you call me a Hermione-lover let me speak out first in DoM is she very active if not one of the few who were did the most spells something wjat I thought was rather odd I did always wait that Neville do something more. But now to that what I did recorgnise at that moment its the fact that Harry had in the forrest his rescue-Hermione-thing thats how JKR did write it (only the fact I don't say he should stay there and just look) in the DoM has suddendly Hermione her rescue-Harry-thing thats kinda odd for me just how JKR did write it. I bet she could have shown it different like Neville rescue Harry or Hermione jumps by herself from Grawp away.

[AvadaKedavra]

Ecthelion. GP :tu:

I see that you've removed the sig- and I can do nothing but offer my humble thanks. Now onto the good post that you made.

I can't really comment on speculation and admit that you could be correct, but can point out TWO things.

1) The legendary quote has been neatly omitted. It could be argued that this bears no relevance on the whole situation, such as "then Hermione looked across Harry's shoulder at a speck of dust settling" and does not need to be taken in consideration with the whole situation.

However, this does indeed have ramifications on the whole situation as can be perceived. For starters- the reaction- "oh- you're worse than Ron"-tells us that Harry is being totally tactless- he is not going around it the right way to win his girl's heart. Hermione displays no "pleasure" at Harry's response, but rather immediately thinks of Ron. Now, that, I think is interesting.
(I will offer my own intepretation of the whole situation later.) On the other hand, it could also been have intended as a half-joke, and the response does not seem right if it indeed was a "test".

2) However, if your theory of "testing out" is correct, then Hermione could've been testing out Ron, trying to provoke him into a bigger reaction by openly writing a letter to Krum in front of him, knowing that he was bound to ask at some point sooner or later.

Signing out,

Avada

[sPtProphecy1]

Harry + Cho = end of story

[TheDan]

NO! Harry and Cho are done.

If anyone is going to end up together, it has to be Harry and Hermoine. Just think about it, it's James and Lily all over again....

[snitch14]

What are you talking about? Cho and Harry? Read the end of OoPT, Harry said he didn't feel any jealousy to any boy who went out with Cho, I think that closed that part of the plot. I mean, he found out what kind of person she was, and i dun think he really liked it.

[Earendil]

Originally posted by GilyAnn
Hermione cling on to Ginny also.

Hermione clings on to Ginny, as in, she holds on to her presumably for protection in a moment of fear and tension? I might be having a huge mind block here, but the only moment of any physical interaction between Hermione and Ginny that I can recall is when Hermione pulls Ginny away from the Veil room in the DoM.

BTW nice selfish reaction of Harry upon seeing Hermione getting hexed.

What was his "selfish" reaction? When he was thinking, "..If she's dead, it's all my fault..."?

I'll wait on clarification before I respond to this.

Originally posted by Fairydust
Hermione seems to cling on to both Ron and Harry when she's freaked out about things.

When does Hermione ever cling on to Ron?

Originally posted by AvadaKedavra
Sorry, but I got the impression from Book 2 that Hermione sucked at duelling- Milicent Bulstrode overpowered her.

Here's the thing about Millicent Bulstrode. Both times Hermione ended up tussling with her, they weren't using magic. In the Dueling Club, it specifically said that "BOTH wands lay forgotten" as Millicent held Hermione in a headlock. In the OotP scene, Umbridge ordered Millicent to take Hermione's wand, and if memory serves, Millicent had to wrestle it away from her.

Can we really expect Hermione to be fabulously skilled at physical defense in addition to being academically talented? Why is it always brought up that Hermione panics in dangerous situations, loses her nerves, and is rendered useless?

I have no doubt in my mind that Hermione does not have nerves of steel. The girl prevented Harry from cursing the baby-headed DE for no plausible reason whatsoever, because her first instinct to protect babies overrode her ability to reason well in a tense situation. But she has proven herself to be more than useful in other dangerous episodes. In Dumbledore's own words, she used cool logic in the face of fire in SS/PS by figuring out a pretty tricky puzzle under alot of pressure. Many people might want to say that this isn't exactly a dangerous moment, but think about it this way: if she had made the slightest mistake, she could have killed either her or one of her best friends, Voldemort could have gotten the stone and returned to power, and the whole thing would have been her fault. I would say that's pretty intense.

In PoA, Harry and Sirius were having an all-out fight and Harry was almost getting choked to death. To whom did that foot belong that forced Sirius away from Harry? In OotP, who was it that summoned Harry's wand while Harry was fighting Dolohov? Hermione may be panicky at times, but I think it's going a little far to assume that Ginny--who I can easily accept has the potential to be a powerful witch, given the examples of foreshadowing--would beat Hermione in a duel.

I've heard countless times that Ginny has proven herself in a number of strange ways which I interpreted completely differently, and this is well and good. Readers have the right to make whatever they want out of the text, and I would never expect everyone to look at these books in the exact same way. However, the simple fact is that no matter how amazing Ginny may turn out to be, Hermione has already proven herself to be well above the average skill of any wizard in their year. I'm not trying to make unfair assumptions, but I have heard from more than a few non-H/Hr shippers certain arguments about Hermione's character that make it seem like readers need to drag Hermione down in order to justify why she can't be with Harry.

EDIT: :welcome: to all new posters--duynd, esicardi, and anyone else who just boarded. esicardi, I recognize you from FAP (where I'm a casual lurker and occasional poster) and it's nice to see you around here. :)

Nice posts to all, fellow Harmonians and otherwise. :clap:

[Young_Prodigy]

NO! Harry and Cho are done.

If anyone is going to end up together, it has to be Harry and Hermoine. Just think about it, it's James and Lily all over again....

I agree, Harry is over Cho..............Hermoine wouldnt be a bad fit, but I think Ginny is ultimately gonna win out. Based on OotP, her character can only get better.

[FlyingPhoenix]

There is only one time where Hermione is rather fearfully in all books and that is this wood accident in PS/SS. But otherwise I can't remember where she did fall out?! In COS well if you say she was so stupid to run around with a mirror than that might count but if she hadn't this mirror she were dead.
In PoA that Hermione did everything she could to prefend that anybody spotted them this wasn't a failure or that she warned Harry he shouldn't do something. She didn't know Harry saw himself.
In OotP that she was that stupid to look at Harry and say almost "Well done!" Yeah this was kinda foolish. The ironic part is that she did so after Harry used the same spell which Hermione used in her first year against Neville. Just curious that all three were there again. Harry used in OotP two spells which Hermione used before in PS/SS and PoA.

[Fairydust]

Ginny has never proven herself. While Hermione has many times. It's that simple.

she took on Malfoy, does that not prove anything? and it was said by Fred and George that Ginny is in some ways powerful. "size is no gurantee of power....look at Ginny"

[snitch14]

well, still, hermione would beat ginny anyway. hermione can be cool in very desperate and tense situations. ginny just isn't like that. ok, she can hex someone and defend herself, but honestly, hermione has proven herself much more.

and besides, ginny just started to become more confident in OoPT. what bout the other books? where hermione already proved to be an above average witch of her age

[evaluna]

It should work, maybe you need wait some seconds because portkey is slow at times.

Anyway before you call me a Hermione-lover let me speak out first in DoM is she very active if not one of the few who were did the most spells something wjat I thought was rather odd I did always wait that Neville do something more. But now to that what I did recorgnise at that moment its the fact that Harry had in the forrest his rescue-Hermione-thing thats how JKR did write it (only the fact I don't say he should stay there and just look) in the DoM has suddendly Hermione her rescue-Harry-thing thats kinda odd for me just how JKR did write it. I bet she could have shown it different like Neville rescue Harry or Hermione jumps by herself from Grawp away.

FP: BTW I love your posts! But I am having the same trouble as Ecthelion & have been for several days. I can't seem to get to the Portkey site with your link or with just the www.portkey.org main URL. For some reason. Earlier in the week I tried but it loaded VERY funny, like it ran out of memory or something -- maybe I need to download some software 1st? Not sure. But if you know of the direct links to the H/Hr fan art, I could try those & let you know if they work out.

Thanks so very much!
Cheers,
Evaluna

[Fairydust]

who's to say that one would be better than the other in a tense situation? we've never seen both of them in action and can't compare them. let's just say that Hermione and Ginny are both good powerful witches.

[Ecthelion]

Ecthelion. GP :tu:

I see that you've removed the sig- and I can do nothing but offer my humble thanks. Now onto the good post that you made.

I can't really comment on speculation and admit that you could be correct, but can point out TWO things.

1) The legendary quote has been neatly omitted. It could be argued that this bears no relevance on the whole situation, such as "then Hermione looked across Harry's shoulder at a speck of dust settling" and does not need to be taken in consideration with the whole situation.

However, this does indeed have ramifications on the whole situation as can be perceived. For starters- the reaction- "oh- you're worse than Ron"-tells us that Harry is being totally tactless- he is not going around it the right way to win his girl's heart. Hermione displays no "pleasure" at Harry's response, but rather immediately thinks of Ron. Now, that, I think is interesting.
(I will offer my own intepretation of the whole situation later.) On the other hand, it could also been have intended as a half-joke, and the response does not seem right if it indeed was a "test".

2) However, if your theory of "testing out" is correct, then Hermione could've been testing out Ron, trying to provoke him into a bigger reaction by openly writing a letter to Krum in front of him, knowing that he was bound to ask at some point sooner or later.

Your welcome. There was never anything against you personally anyways :)

Regardless, I'll talk about the bolded parts up there.

Ok, what we are discussing about has a million alternatives. While we give one scenario, it can easily be answered with another. So I'm not saying this is right.

1.) Well, you see, I would accept this possibility except for the fact that Ron cut in (once again interrupting I might add), he didn't just immediately pop up in Hermione's thoughts. The only reason he was brought up because he came into the room and intervened. I don't think that it has any other significance other than she is comparing Harry's social skills to that of Ron's....

2.) So, if your theory of my theory is correct, it could be very well be that Hermione, being downcast by the fact that she knew Harry and Cho were doing something, could have thought instantly of her relationship with Krum and turned to it for solace.

And another little problem I have with your theory there is the fact that you said Hermione was testing Ron. I honestly don't think there is any testing to be done at all. She knows he has a crush on her. She is fully capable of finding that out by the all but blatently obvious actions of his last year and certain comments he makes this year. Why would she need to test him? My goodness, doesn't she know enough already!

[GilyAnn]

That's not the point. JKR purposely put Hermione in stituations where Harry moves to protect her. He does it instinctively. In the MoM, he's not playing the hero, grabbing at a generic anyone to pull them out of harms way, he reaches for Hermione in particular. He was standing in front of Ginny, yet when the shards start to fly, he yells for everyone to Run! but it's Hermione that he grabs to help along. And it's not because he thinks that she needs the help (i.e. doubts her abilities) since before they even set off for the MoM, it's Ginny, Neville and Luna's ability he doubts, not Hermione's.

JKR built Ginny up perfectly to be the one to help Harry when caught by Umbridge. We saw how smooth she is at lying (spinning that yarn about Crookshanks and the dungbombs to her mum). When talking to Harry about contacting Sirius, says something to the effect of, hanging around the twins, you start to think that anything is possible, that if you want something bad enough you can make it happen.

Harry had to dragged Hermione forward. This very well tell us that she stood there while everyone run away. Ginny didn't need to be helped. perhaps this also mean that Hermione in situations of terrible stress needs a guiding hand because she get's way to freaked out. Not that I hold it against her. I think it's perfectly normal I mean I would have probably done it in my pants. ;)

Again if holding on to someone is a sign of love we have a problem.

wasn't Sirius killed by the same curse that felled Hermione?

No he was 'killed' by the second light which apparently was red.

No. They just said she could do a good bogie hex. Theirs a big difference to being able to do one good hex and being a powerful witch. Theirs has been no evidence in the books that say that Ginny's abilitys are above avrage (unlike Hermione who is constinatly parised and seems to get every spell right first time).

No they clearly inferred that Ginny was powerfull.

"A weapon is going to be a lot bigger than the Stone though!" said Ron.
"Not necessarily." said Fred.
"Yeah size is no guarantee of power," said George. "Look at Ginny."
"What d'you mean?" said Harry.
"You've never been on the receiving end of one of her Bat-Bogey Hexes, Have you?"

They infered that even though Ginny is small she holds a lot of power and also it infers that George has been in the receiving end of one of Ginny's hexes.

Sorry, but I got the impression from Book 2 that Hermione sucked at duelling- Milicent Bulstrode overpowered her. Hermione is good at thinking spells that are non combatory

Yes AvadaKedavra I got the same impression. I think every person has a function in a company. Obviously Hermione's role is too good out of combat. Every person between this six has something that the other can't do. It's what make's it work so well.

In PoA as Ginny was in the train and on the edge of her strength was it Hermione who hold her. Who gave her strength and not Ron. So Hermione did gave her savety and a helping hand. Hermione do give her protection after the dementor was in there compartment. That say to me she feels safe with Hermione. Especially if her own brother is in the same compartment is it Hermione who dos that.

D E M E N T O R S the word that change it all. Specially after Harry who indeed end it up passing out.

Plus I feel like standing up for Gily Ann, who has done the same for me.
:blush: Ahh! Thank you!

Alright, this is pure speculation based on almost no facts so just hear this out. Ok, we know what Cho was trying to do to Harry. Use techniques of jealousy to find out how much Harry really likes her. Easy enough. But then we see Hermione explaining what she did and what he should have done. However, doesn't it seem as if Hermione, in the process of explaining to Harry, is doing the same thing as Cho? Why did she have to add that part about her being ugly? Harry would have perfectly understood without it. I know this is a lame observation but I can't help but think that Hermione, in her own way, tried to find out a bit about Harry's thoughts of her by the same strategy as cho....just not through jealousy.

Didn't Hermione added the question like and afterthough?

Ginny has never proven herself. While Hermione has many times. It's that simple.

Ooookkkk, Ginny was able to throw away the diary on her 2nd year when she was 11. Ginny was still alived when Harry got into the chamber, Ginny didn't pass out in PoA when the Dementors came in the train even though she was looking 'as bad as Harry', Ginny was able to only to free themselves from the Slytherings and if it wouldn't have been for Luna her ankle wouldn't have been broken. Yes I see what you mean. :scared:

Hermione clings on to Ginny, as in, she holds on to her presumably for protection in a moment of fear and tension? I might be having a huge mind block here, but the only moment of any physical interaction between Hermione and Ginny that I can recall is when Hermione pulls Ginny away from the Veil room in the DoM.

And wasn't Hermione having a nervous breakdown because of it?

One more time if Physical contact is a base for love then we have Hermione and Ginny.

What was his "selfish" reaction? When he was thinking, "..If she's dead, it's all my fault..."?

Hell, yes it is that one! Nice reaction of Harry. He doesn't want to get blamed for her death. Then he doesn't bother to carry her. If H/Hr is going to be the final pairing this was really terribly written and awfully put out. He let's NEVILLE watch over her while he go gets the others and then even hesitated to help Neville prop up poor Hermione in top of him. I mean Harry mate a little concern is not going to kill you. She may have a pulse but God knows later. One would say that Hermione and Neville are it!

Can we really expect Hermione to be fabulously skilled at physical defense in addition to being academically talented? Why is it always brought up that Hermione panics in dangerous situations, loses her nerves, and is rendered useless?

It is your shipmates who expected her to be extremelly talented on both sides. I CLEARLY see what is Hermione's part on this. I CLEARLY see that she is talented academically and that her role should be there because she is bloody brilliant at it. I CLEARLY see that.

I think Ginny is ultimately gonna win out. Based on OotP, her character can only get better.

I COMPLETLE AGREE WITH THIS.


Gily Ann

[DumbledoreTheWise]

NO! Harry and Cho are done.

If anyone is going to end up together, it has to be Harry and Hermoine. Just think about it, it's James and Lily all over again....

How is Harry/Hermione anything like James and Lily? I cannot find one way in which they are similar. In fact, Ron and Hermione are closer to the James/Lily dynamic, and Harry and Ginny say James and Lily all over the place. The only thing that is different is their eye color. It's the opposite of J/L. Ginny has the brown eyes, and was interested in Harry first. James had the brown eyes, and was interested in Lily first. oh that's right, it's happening people......get ready. And Lupin is going to be at the wedding.........wow, I am WAY too emotionally invested in this.
But it's gotta be Harry and Ginny.....where are my supporters??
And fitting with tradition I'll add a BOOYAH for good measure.

[FlyingPhoenix]

Pumpkin pie (http://art.pumpkinpie.org/index.php) and HP-fanfiction-art (http://www.translations-for-harry.de/indexjs.htm)

So the second link is a german page but its don't matter just go to fanfiction-art document and there you should find some artist.

About portkey, by me is it working again thats strange

she took on Malfoy, does that not prove anything? and it was said by Fred and George that Ginny is in some ways powerful. "size is no gurantee of power....look at Ginny"

Yeah, so did Neville, too. Now Ginny is powerful with one spell. If she were that powerful like you'll say than why isn't she mentioned more as it gos about spells in DA? I bet Harry would spott that if Ginny can produce a great patronuse or use a spell very proper. Why isn't it mentioned than? But instead we hear how great Neville, Cho and Hermione are doing!

[AvadaKedavra]

Hey guys!

:rotfl: The Ginny/Hermione debate has been one of the most funny and pointless nitpicky things ever! Now that Ecthelion and I have created a different line of debate, I'm respectfully withdrawing from this debate. (BTW, Ginny rocks!) Sorry! Couldn't resist. :p

Ecthelion,

Forgive me. I should've used another word to "testing out". Instead, ignore that and read straight on to the next part- "trying to provoke a bigger reaction". By my own theory, Hermione seeks Ron to "confirm" his feelings. Hermione wants Ron to do something about the situation. (Personally I think Hermione should take the risk and plunge for it, but Hermione is a measured woman. :p). Keep that in mind for the next part.

Here is my rather long winded analysis of the whole thing, but I think it is rather critical for me to put everything on the table for you to read, (and hopefully weep). :D

N.B Read all of it very carefully please.

"You should have told her differently," said Hermione, still with that maddeningly patient air.

Now I take this as Hermione being very, very patient at Harry’s apparent cluelessness. Harry is clueless, tactless and generally naïve about this area. This area is getting the girl that he wants.

"You should have said it was really annoying, but I'd made you promise to come along to the Three Broomsticks, and you really didn't want to go, you’d much rather spend the whole day with her, but unfortunately you thought you really ought to meet me and would she please, please come along with you and hopefully you'd be able to get away more quickly?

Hermione is explaining patiently to Harry what he should have done. She is explaining without the merest trace of hesitancy to Harry that he should pretend Hermione Granger is really annoying and why he doesn’t want to be there to meet her. She is telling Harry to give his crush an impression that he doesn’t find Hermione interesting (at that moment.)

And it might have been a good idea to mention how ugly you think I am too," Hermione added as an afterthought.

The critical point here is that Hermione said as an afterthought. Hermione, who has in the very previous sentence explained to Harry why he should give the crush the impression he doesn’t particularly find Hermione interesting, is adding something directly related to this. Hermione is on a train of thought. She is thinking about the very situation, and adding things as new things come to light in the conversation that could potentially be useful to the conversation.

"But I don't think you're ugly," said Harry, bemused.
"Harry, you're worse than Ron....

Harry has just paid Hermione a compliment, if it can be interpreted that way. Directly relating this to the overall scheme of things, Harry is clearly not picking up on Hermione’s advice. He is bemused, as the canon states. Harry is still tactless and still clueless.

As I said before, these traits Harry shows are shown on a specific area. This area is getting the girl that he wants.

Harry has just displayed tactlessness and cluelessness on how to get the girl he wants. Hermione is still on that train of thought. As this occurs to Hermione, another thought occurs to her. A thought directly related to tactlessness and cluelessness on how to get a girl that is wanted... That thought, unarguably, is Ron.

Hermione’s mind springs to Ron when she thinks of tactlessness and cluelessness on how to get a girl that is wanted. And who does Ron want, as almost universally agreed here? That girl happens to be Hermione. In other words, Hermione is thinking- Ron is tactless and clueless when it comes to getting Hermione. In other words, Ron is going about it in the wrong way and he is simply not picking up the clues (if they are provided).

Harry is being tactless and clueless on how to get a girl that he wants. “Oh! He’s worse than Ron!” thinks Hermione.

Well, no, you're not," she sighed, as Ron himself came stumping into the Hall splattered with mud and looking grumpy.

But, ironically, Ron walks in. Ron in the flesh. Ron who wants Hermione. Ron who is merely yards away from Hermione. Ron who is being muddy and grumpy, whilst in an ideal and romantic world should be walking to the girl of his dreams, smartly dressed with a bunch of flowers. Hermione retracts her statement, with a sigh, often a sign of despairing.

Whew! Now that's done, I'm taking a breather.

Signing out,

Avada

[snitch14]

First, DumbledoreTheWise, James had hazel eyes.


Second, why does it matter who is a better witch, Hermione or Ginny. I mean, would that really increase their chances of being Harry's soulmates?

[Fairydust]

How is Harry/Hermione anything like James and Lily? I cannot find one way in which they are similar. In fact, Ron and Hermione are closer to the James/Lily dynamic, and Harry and Ginny say James and Lily all over the place. The only thing that is different is their eye color. It's the opposite of J/L. Ginny has the brown eyes, and was interested in Harry first. James had the brown eyes, and was interested in Lily first. oh that's right, it's happening people......get ready. And Lupin is going to be at the wedding.........wow, I am WAY too emotionally invested in this.
But it's gotta be Harry and Ginny.....where are my supporters??
And fitting with tradition I'll add a BOOYAH for good measure.

i'm a supporter of H/G. and i totally agree with you.

[GilyAnn]

How is Harry/Hermione anything like James and Lily? I cannot find one way in which they are similar. In fact, Ron and Hermione are closer to the James/Lily dynamic, and Harry and Ginny say James and Lily all over the place. The only thing that is different is their eye color. It's the opposite of J/L. Ginny has the brown eyes, and was interested in Harry first. James had the brown eyes, and was interested in Lily first. oh that's right, it's happening people......get ready. And Lupin is going to be at the wedding.........wow, I am WAY too emotionally invested in this.
But it's gotta be Harry and Ginny.....where are my supporters??
And fitting with tradition I'll add a BOOYAH for good measure.

LOL :lol: :agree: I don't even have to say that I'm one of them!

Gily Ann

Edit: Avadakadavra also Hermione doesn't blush when Harry pays her a compliment. He goes on to say how clueless Harry is and the rectifies that Ron is worst. Maybe because he doesn't g e t i t.

Edit:
Quote:
Once in my live I agree with AK this debatte which witch is better is rather nonsense
~~~

Hey haven't you laugh!

[FlyingPhoenix]

I just can't like the comparing between any ship with J/L because for once Harry,Hermione and Ron are all best friends so that say they don't hate each other but if you ship D/Hr than I'm with you otherwise is that rather not right to compare with each other.

Once in my live I agree with AK this debatte which witch is better is rather nonsense

[Buckbeak]

It seems i have to defend Harry again



Hell, yes it is that one! Nice reaction of Harry. He doesn't want to get blamed for her death. Then he doesn't bother to carry her. If H/Hr is going to be the final pairing this was really terribly written and awfully put out. He let's NEVILLE watch over her while he go gets the others and then even hesitated to help Neville prop up poor Hermione in top of him. I mean Harry mate a little concern is not going to kill you. She may have a pulse but God knows later. One would say that Hermione and Neville are it!

Hey Harry wasn't being selfish, he blames himself for it, he never says anything like 'oh god she's dead, everyones going to blame me' not in my virsion of the book anyway.
Oh and the thing with making Neville carry her, well for a start Harry isn't really what you'de call musculer, he's a shrimpy little guy (COS, he couldn't even hold Ginny up for more than ten seconds when they were in the chamber and she's only little herself...you know what bit mean?) and Neville seems to me to be bigger built anyway, besides he offered to carry her, because Harry's better at spells than Neville is and he would need both arms free and Neville didn't have a wand, yes...alright he got Hermione's in the end, but that was after he had Hermione on his shoulder, so it was to late to change his mind.
Harry had a lot of consern otherwise he wouldn't have gone looking for the others, in fact he has too much consern. He's the Master of Consern.

[FlyingPhoenix]

You did forgot Neville was injured, too. So he couldn't use spells properly so he had to carey her and not Harry. He was the only one without any injureing

[Ecthelion]

First of all, I would like to voice my humour at the fact we are trying to convince each other about something that cannot be proven. :D Anyways....

All quotes exclusively from AvadaKedavra.

Forgive me. I should've used another word to "testing out". Instead, ignore that and read straight on to the next part- "trying to provoke a bigger reaction". By my own theory, Hermione seeks Ron to "confirm" his feelings. Hermione wants Ron to do something about the situation. (Personally I think Hermione should take the risk and plunge for it, but Hermione is a measured woman. :p). Keep that in mind for the next part.

Ahh. Now I see what you mean. But I still stick to my own analysis. Hermione does not need anymore evidence or conviction. The Yule ball alone could have lasted her a lifetime of evidence. Even if she didn't realize it then....she can certainly realizes it now! I think that it is fairly obvious that Hermione is quite gifted at reading emotions. And the ones Ron gave her could have been written down and she would have gotton the same drift. They were so obvious!

Now I take this as Hermione being very, very patient at Harry’s apparent cluelessness. Harry is clueless, tactless and generally naïve about this area. This area is getting the girl that he wants.

Or is it :)

Hermione is explaining patiently to Harry what he should have done. She is explaining without the merest trace of hesitancy to Harry that he should pretend Hermione Granger is really annoying and why he doesn’t want to be there to meet her. She is telling Harry to give his crush an impression that he doesn’t find Hermione interesting (at that moment.)

The critical point here is that Hermione said as an afterthought. Hermione, who has in the very previous sentence explained to Harry why he should give the crush the impression he doesn’t particularly find Hermione interesting, is adding something directly related to this. Hermione is on a train of thought. She is thinking about the very situation, and adding things as new things come to light in the conversation that could potentially be useful to the conversation.

Harry has just paid Hermione a compliment, if it can be interpreted that way. Directly relating this to the overall scheme of things, Harry is clearly not picking up on Hermione’s advice. He is bemused, as the canon states. Harry is still tactless and still clueless.

See now, this is where it gets tricky and can be interpreted many many ways. You say Hermione just said it as an afterthought. So do I. Except I say it for a different reason which you can undoubtably glean its meaning from my original theory. That's what is so great about literature. He is "bemused" as "canon" states, correct? Sad thing is, canon can still be read differently, interpreted one way or the other, or it could have a double meaning. Yet, it could mean what you suggest, just as it reads. But as of now, we have no way of knowing which. So I guess I'll stop talking now since it really doesn't matter what I say :)

Harry is being tactless and clueless on how to get a girl that he wants. “Oh! He’s worse than Ron!” thinks Hermione.

Only because he stepped in the room at an extroidanarily convienent moment. Almost as an...an...afterthought ;)

Whew! Now that's done, I'm taking a breather.

Same here :tu:

[Buckbeak]

Yep FP your right. so that settles it, Harry wasn't being selfish. The end.

I always get into defensive mode when someone says anything bad about Harry. Its a condition i believe.

Wow iv just noticed im a second year. Yeah! :clap: :clap: :clap:

[Umbridge]

I didn't get the impression that Umbridge was a particulary good witch (skills wise). She was inadept with the "fireworks", fighting the centaurs, and she gave the general air of someone who wasn't that skilled anyhow.

I realize this was dropped aways back, but I wanted to add that Umbridge couldn't clear up the twin's swamp either, while Flitwick did it in mere moments.

[AvadaKedavra]

:rotfl:

Ecthelion- the afterthought crack was genuinely funny. It is true that JKR writes those scenes with "slight ambiguity" in mind- in other words, throwing H/Hr a lifeline :p

But you have to admit that my interpretation of the scene in the overall scheme of things is pretty solid and as the only thing you could argue back was that it was after all, an interpretation. :lol:

Buckbeak, welcome to my year! Although I am sad to announce that I will be moving up soon...

Signing out,

Avada

[FlyingPhoenix]

Hermione is still on that train of thought

Why should she be on a train of thoughts? Its not as if she say something vague or as if say it so by the way without thinking. All what is written she is patient like mad. Now where get you she is lost in her own little world?

[Mega]

Ooookkkk, Ginny was able to throw away the diary on her 2nd year when she was 11. Ginny was still alived when Harry got into the chamber, Ginny didn't pass out in PoA when the Dementors came in the train even though she was looking 'as bad as Harry', Ginny was able to only to free themselves from the Slytherings and if it wouldn't have been for Luna her ankle wouldn't have been broken. Yes I see what you mean.

Ok. You presented 5 facts their to try show how Ginny is a better witch than Hermione. Now do you know how many of those 5 facts actually have anything to do with Ginny's magical ability? None. Not one of those facts are about Ginny's magical abilitys. Now correct me if I am wrong but isn't this whole debat over who would win in a duel between Hermione and Ginny? If it is then you wasted your time posting those facts because they have no relivance to the argument. Go back a few pages and read the question again carefully.

[Mad Eye Mike]

Harry had to dragged Hermione forward. This very well tell us that she stood there while everyone run away. Ginny didn't need to be helped.<edit>


First of all, it doesn't say Harry had to drag Hermione forward because she was frozen. It simply reads that when the glasses shattered, Harry reached back, grabbed her robes and dragged her forward. If Hermione was frozen, JKR would've clearly said so.

Secondly, you're right. Ginny didn't need to be helped because along with Ron and Luna, she left Harry, Hermione and Neville behind. When you run as fast as you can and don't bother waiting just a bit for your friends to catch up to see if they're okay, you usually don't need help.


<edit>Ginny was still alived when Harry got into the chamber<edit>


What does that mean? How does Ginny being (barely) alive in the chamber prove she's powerful? Do you know WHY Ginny was still alive? Because Riddle was sucking out her life force and the process was a slow one. I'm sorry but that doesn't make sense.


One more time if Physical contact is a base for love then we have Hermione and Ginny.


Okay, unless you can back that statement up with text, this is best left alone.


<edit>Nice reaction of Harry. He doesn't want to get blamed for her death. Then he doesn't bother to carry her. If H/Hr is going to be the final pairing this was really terribly written and awfully put out. He let's NEVILLE watch over her while he go gets the others and then even hesitated to help Neville prop up poor Hermione in top of him. I mean Harry mate a little concern is not going to kill you. She may have a pulse but God knows later. One would say that Hermione and Neville are it!


:wow: All I can say is at least Harry had a reaction to Hermione going down as opposed to his reaction when he saw Ginny get hit.

[Fairydust]

I still don't get why we have to debate who's the better witch. They are both strong and powerful and good in their own right. Unless this was going to turn into a shipper debate as in who is better for Harry, then I don't see that question going anywhere.

[evaluna]

Original post by Dumbledore the Wise
Originally Posted by TheDan
NO! Harry and Cho are done.

If anyone is going to end up together, it has to be Harry and Hermoine. Just think about it, it's James and Lily all over again....

[DtW Response:]
How is Harry/Hermione anything like James and Lily? I cannot find one way in which they are similar. In fact, Ron and Hermione are closer to the James/Lily dynamic, and Harry and Ginny say James and Lily all over the place. The only thing that is different is their eye color. It's the opposite of J/L. Ginny has the brown eyes, and was interested in Harry first. James had the brown eyes, and was interested in Lily first. oh that's right, it's happening people......get ready. And Lupin is going to be at the wedding.........wow, I am WAY too emotionally invested in this.
But it's gotta be Harry and Ginny.....where are my supporters??
And fitting with tradition I'll add a BOOYAH for good measure.

DtW: Sorry! I haven't tried to create a link here but try this
and go to post #464 on p. 16 of this thread. Thanks FP!

evaluna's post p. 16 (http://www.cosforums.com/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=481079)

Please see my long post on the topic. About halfway down, there is discussion from canon on why none of the current generation relate directly to James and Lily -- and moreover why you wouldn't want them to do so anyway.

If you are interested, there is much more in Part 1 of this love thread, this being Part 2. I'm sure some of my more senior fellow shippers can point you to some addition info on this topic, having been around much longer, which will add a great deal of clarity and background to the discussion.
Cheers!

[sone]

Of course Harry hesitated. He wanted Neville to get Hermione out of the DoM. Neville wanted to stay with Harry, Harry asked paraphrased "but Hermione....", Neville answers paraphrased "we'll take her with us." Dragging a "thought to be dead" Hermione around the DoM is not what Harry had in mind and of course hesitated to pick her up.

[noddwyd]

AK, its funny you should use the word 'lifeline' there, 'cause Harry's gonna be needing one in his near future, and if he doesn't get it you can kiss the wizarding world goodbye.

[GilyAnn]

You did forgot Neville was injured, too. So he couldn't use spells properly so he had to carey her and not Harry. He was the only one without any injureing

And Injured and all he carry her!

Harry didn't even offer to carry her. He insinuated that Neville do it. He gave Hermione's wand to Neville after he was carrying her.

Gily Ann

[GilyAnn]

Ok. You presented 5 facts their to try show how Ginny is a better witch than Hermione. Now do you know how many of those 5 facts actually have anything to do with Ginny's magical ability? None. Not one of those facts are about Ginny's magical abilitys. Now correct me if I am wrong but isn't this whole debat over who would win in a duel between Hermione and Ginny? If it is then you wasted your time posting those facts because they have no relivance to the argument. Go back a few pages and read the question again carefully.

First you are connecting it to Hermione not me.

Second Read my post carefully and you'll be able to follow my responses and why I give the responses that I give. When you do you'll see that I was responding to a statement.

Third I don't waste my time those are facts based on the books the fact that H/Hr choosed to see it another way it's not my problem.

Gily Ann

[FlyingPhoenix]

Evalunas post (http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=481079&postcount=464)

Now to how this works just go to this icon with the world its on the left side of the quote buttom than you write how you call your link than okay after that the URL that should work that looks like that:

URL=http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=481079&postcount=464]Evalunas post[/URL

arry didn't even offer to carry her. He insinuated that Neville do it. He gave Hermione's wand to Neville after he was carrying her
And who fight against the DE? Neville who always yell stubefy?
He had to carry her if they want get there out in one pieces

[Buckbeak]

And who fight against the DE? Neville who always yell stubefy?
He had to carry her if they want get there out in one pieces


That made me laugh :lol: and its completely true of course.

[sone]

Harry did not need to offer, Neville already suggested that he do it knowing that Harry is better at defending. On top of that, Neville's nose and his wand was broken. Harry had no interest in keeping Hermione in the DoM where there was Death Eaters running around looking to kill them. He does not even know what they did to her, he was just extremely relieved to know that she was still alive. It takes alot to shake up Harry, the thought of Hermione dying in front of him did that job thoroughly.

[Hope1272]

Quote<GilyAnn>:

And Injured and all he carry her!

Harry didn't even offer to carry her. He insinuated that Neville do it. He gave Hermione's wand to Neville after he was carrying her.


Okay, Neville is hurt. But it's his nose that's broken, not his arm or leg. The real danger lies in the fact that Neville's speech is garbled due to the broken nose and therefore isn't able to perform the curses and jinxs no matter what wand he is holding. So the best thing he can do to help Harry is to carry Hermione. Harry is the only one among them who is effective at this point. He asks Neville to take Hermione to get help while he goes to find the others. Not because he doesn't care about Hermoine, but because he is the only one in fit condition to do anything while trying to locate the others.

And on another note, it's not Luna who hurts Ginny in the DoM, it's the Death Eater who had hold of her ankle. Luna shot a Reductor curse to blow up Pluto in his face, but he managed to hurt Ginny in the process anyway.

[AvadaKedavra]

No'wydd, I meant lifeline as if in something for H/Hr shippers to "grasp" at. I was joking, of course.

Any response on my lengthy interpretation of the whole Hermione/Cho advice scene, plus that legendary quote?

[noddwyd]

I know how you meant it, It just reminded me of that, though. And other than the fact that you contradicted yourself, no, I am too tired to go and dissect your 'advice' post.

anyways, first you say that Hermione is unsure of Ron's feelings, correct? And that this is part of your big theory, and that it explains why she isn't trying to send more obvious hints his way?

then you say this:

how to get the girl he wants. Hermione is still on that train of thought. As this occurs to Hermione, another thought occurs to her. A thought directly related to tactlessness and cluelessness on how to get a girl that is wanted... That thought, unarguably, is Ron.

which would indicate that she is, in fact, entirely aware of Ron's feelings for her. I'm sure this was just an honest mistake on your part, though.

[evaluna]

AK, I think noddwyd knew what you meant, and I think his meaning is clear, as well. I certainly got it.

The "quote" has been discussed many times. You are right in that if taken singly, it might signify more for R/Hr. Your opposing shippers are also right that, if taken singly, it could also signify something clearly negative for R/Hr. In its context, I lean further toward reading a negative meaning into it, simply because Hermione appears to be joking gently or expressing mild frustration directly to Harry about how clueless he is with girls, whilst as an afterthought comparing Harry to the worst-case scenario [Ron] and realising [with private relief, perhaps?] that Harry's not as bad as Ron. Why would Hermione even feel the need to compare Harry to Ron, and especially to Harry's face in a way that is unflattering to Ron [on the surface certainly] -- really, it seems as if her final comment was said as an afterthought, right? Almost as if Hermione were thinking out loud without realising that her comment sounded insulting toward Ron...So if she were just thinking out loud, what could this quote mean? Especially in the context of a conversation with Harry about relationships [also, note that the scene itself is one of several times in which Hermione has a conversation with Harry about relationships -- specifically his]...

A variety of subjective reasons could apply...

Perhaps Hermione voices the thought that there's still hope for Harry, because...well, perhaps because she needs or wants to feel that there is still hope for Harry on the relationship front . Perhaps Hermione is reminding herself that, although Harry is still fairly clueless with women, nonetheless Harry is more mature, more sensitive, more considerate, and thus she can reassure herself of Harry's [i]relationship potential for future? Or perhaps, Hermione just hopes by discussing her perspective on relationships with Harry face-to-face here and there, Harry will better understand her, meaning what she likes and by comparison with Ron, i.e., perhaps what she is certain that she doesn't like? Of course this is [b]all speculation, but without getting into the exact text, which you and others have already done, the point of this purely speculative exercise is just to show that there are clearly two ways to interpret the "quote" specifically and the context of the quote, more generally.

BTW your sig pic is cute and tasteful but somehow calls Fred or George to mind for me ;)
Cheers!

[Turambar]

Well personally I thought Harry showed far more concern for Hermione in the DOM than for anyone else. He was completely shaken up when he thought she might be dead. Like a good leader her sized up the situation and realised that he had to find the others and he was the only one physically able to fight as Neville had a broken nose and wand. He wanted Neville to take Hermione and go for help, which would also have the advantage of getting Hermione out of the line of fire. I thought there was an element of Harry being protective there.

[Elric]

I'm new to this thread so I'll start by saying that my preference for a couple would be H/Hr, but I'm not fundamentally opposed to R/Hr and H/G.

I've tried to track all the posts on the thread, but I've only managed about half, so if this has been raised before I apologise.

I was wondering about any positive influence that Ginny could exert on getting R/Hr together, reasoning as follows.

Ginny and Hermione are friends, are of similar age and spent time together during the summer in Grimmauld Place, so it's a reasonable assumption that they chatted about any number of things, including the 'objects of their affections'. Hermione seems to know about Ginny's love life so it would be strange if she hadn't responded in kind.

If Hermione is interested in Ron and she mentioned this to Ginny, but bemoaned the fact that Ron seems clueless, or incapable of acting on his feelings, does anyone think it strange that Ginny hasn't given her brother a shove in the right direction, or not been seen quietly banging her head against the wall as Ron suffers another case of 'Foot-In-Mouth' disease?

Please feel free to debate or deride as seems appropriate.

[Fairydust]

Well personally I thought Harry showed far more concern for Hermione in the DOM than for anyone else. He was completely shaken up when he thought she might be dead. Like a good leader her sized up the situation and realised that he had to find the others and he was the only one physically able to fight as Neville had a broken nose and wand. He wanted Neville to take Hermione and go for help, which would also have the advantage of getting Hermione out of the line of fire. I thought there was an element of Harry being protective there.

He was scared for her and protective of her because if she died it would have been his fault.

[humongoratdropping]

This probably was mentioned in teh what...53 pages of this thread..lol....but take a look at this quote from the hospital wing at the end of OotP.

"That sounds lovely," said Hermione.
Ginny caught Harry's eye, and looked away quickly, grinning..

[Am i the only who sees something here...hmmmm?]

Also, during the Easter Egg part when Ginny meets Harry in the library. Why was there a lump in his throat, eh?
And yes, I'm a H/G shipper. lol

[Fairydust]

This probably was mentioned in teh what...53 pages of this thread..lol....but take a look at this quote from the hospital wing at the end of OotP.

"That sounds lovely," said Hermione.
Ginny caught Harry's eye, and looked away quickly, grinning..

[Am i the only who sees something here...hmmmm?]

Also, during the Easter Egg part when Ginny meets Harry in the library. Why was there a lump in his throat, eh?
And yes, I'm a H/G shipper. lol

You're not the only one that sees it. The whole them catching each other's eye and looking away grinning has also happened in PoA. :clap: more H/G shippers! Yea.... :clap:

[evaluna]

Turambar: I agree. For me it was clear Harry's priority was Hermione's safety, and he wanted her out of harm's way whilst he of necessity returned to the fray of battle.

(speaking of which, love your avatar...)

EDIT:
Original post by Fairydust
Quote:Originally Posted by humongoratdropping
This probably was mentioned in teh what...53 pages of this thread..lol....but take a look at this quote from the hospital wing at the end of OotP.

"That sounds lovely," said Hermione.
Ginny caught Harry's eye, and looked away quickly, grinning..
[Am i the only who sees something here...hmmmm?]

Also, during the Easter Egg part when Ginny meets Harry in the library. Why was there a lump in his throat, eh?
And yes, I'm a H/G shipper. lol

[Fairydust response:]
You're not the only one that sees it. The whole them catching each other's eye and looking away grinning has also happened in PoA. more H/G shippers! Yea....

Just to clarify, ladies and gents, yes it was discussed. And someone astutely pointed out [FP?] that unlike in PoA, Harry does not grin back. Ginny caught Harry's eye to share a moment, but per text it's not clear that Harry responds in kind. She [Ginny] looks away and she grins, but it's not specific regarding Harry. I read this as Harry from his POV noticing that Hermione caught herself and instead acted in a more mature manner. Hermione instead acted in a way that was both sensitive toward Luna's feelings and appreciative of Luna's support of Harry. I see Harry's approval and recognition in the very fact that he doesn't appear to grin back when Ginny catches his eye. Ginny sees the humour, which is fine, but whilst Harry probably does as well, Harry also sees something deeper in Hermione's behaviour, IMO. And that's the difference.

Re: easter, I think the lump in the throat for Harry was the poignant contrast between the solid family life that the Weasleys have with his own lack, and at a time when Harry is not only deprived of parents [as always], but also cut off from the only real family he's ever had [Sirius] at a critical time when Harry is also feeling intense private pain at what the pensieve revealed concerning his own father, James. The kind and familiar gesture/gift from Mrs. Weasley simply served to contrast his situation with that of any and all of the Weasleys.

[Turambar]

Cheers Evaluna and thanks for your comments earlier.
The moment in the hospital was a three-way moment. Hermione was trying not to laugh and be nice to Luna and Ginny and Harry were aware of that and found it, and what Luna said, funny.

[sone]

Well humongoratdropping, some of us believe that Umbridge infiltrated Harry's chocolate egg so he can start hemoraging information about the whereabouts of Dumbledore and Sirius Black.

In any case, I still believe Ginny has something for Harry. Something that happened in the GOF makes me think that "blackboard" hair and "fresh pickled toad" eyes still very much appeal to her.

[humongoratdropping]

Yeah, i agree, sone. Who really cares whom Ginny is going out with? Imvho, she's still obsessed with Harry. Only time will tell when harry will notice Ginny...sigh.....

Yeah, the GoF moment for me was when they were talking about their dates for the Yule Ball and when Harry didn't succeed in asking out in Cho Chang adn told Ron this, Ginny stopped smiling. Heh.

[Fairydust]

See, I don't think Ginny is over her crush on Harry. Sure she "gave up on him" but that doesn't mean she doesn't like him anymore. She gave up on trying to get him to like her, but it doesn't mean she gave up on liking him. sorry if i sound repetitive.

[humongoratdropping]

Nah, you aren't repetitive. And Harry will like her, (please JK, mutters prayer.) Harry will end up liking her (again, mutters prayer)

[AvadaKedavra]

Evaluna

Absolutely. I was just being "perky" because that for once, no one said what I said couldn't be true because of this and that, or because I haven't supported myself in canon or any nitpicky reason, and the only counter argument offered (yourself included :p) was there are two ways of intepreting something.

Noddwyd, well spotted. Thank you, and yes it was a honest mistake on my part. Or rather an omission in the heat of the moment. :lol:

How I mean to express it all, is in terms of Hermione "suspecting" some of Ron's feelings, which albeit her possible clues and encouragement, still doesn't take it to the next level.

Here are the adjusted parts to make allowance for my omissions. :lol:

In other words, Hermione is thinking- Ron is tactless and clueless when it comes to getting Hermione. In other words, Ron is going about it in the wrong way and he is simply not picking up the clues (if they are provided). If he, Ron, does indeed, like Hermione, then why isn’t he doing anything about it? He is not (in Hermione’s opinion) making it totally clear that he likes Hermione, and refusing to take it up to the next level. Hermione wants confirmation, and Ron is not giving it, despite indications that he may like Hermione. Ron is seemingly stuck in a stalemate, and only giving timid steps that are lost in the complication of their strong friendship- i.e. perfume and his compliments to her.

At this moment, Hermione wonders if Ron really does have feelings, in her despair. He doesn’t seem to be doing anything significant, not to the extent that, she, Hermione wants. And that is the confirmation.

Hermione retracts her statement, with a sigh, often a sign of despairing.

Please acknowlegde that this is an extract from my five stage theory and in order to see everything beautifully, you need other essays, which will, of course, be included in the final version. In fact, my five stage theory is becoming so huge that i think I'll have to split it up. :D

Signing out,

Avada

[sone]

Exactly humongoratdropping. It is funny to me that Ron and Ginny never bothered to ask Hermione and Harry. They both missed out big time.

[humongoratdropping]

Maybe they would've actually enjoyed the Yule Ball somewhat..well the boys at least...if they actually asked out what we matchmakers think they're destined for...rotflmao

[Hope1272]

<Quote>:humungoratdropping

"That sounds lovely," said Hermione.
Ginny caught Harry's eye, and looked away quickly, grinning..

[Am i the only who sees something here...hmmmm?]

Also, during the Easter Egg part when Ginny meets Harry in the library. Why was there a lump in his throat, eh?


My take on the first quote is that Harry and Ginny find Hermione's struggle with a grudging respect for Luna's bravery and friendship at the MoM with her need to argue about the validity of Luna's belief in the Crumple Horned Snorkaks a funny one. They are both close to Hermione and know just how much that took for her.

The second quote I'm putting more to the egg that Ginny brings having the iced snitches which reminds him of the snitch his father was playing with in the memory of Snape's that has left him with a disturbing view of his father and Sirius, both of whom he looks up to immensely, and a feeling of hopelessness about contacting Sirius to confirm what he has seen.

[Fairydust]

all shipping aside. What if Hermione liked Ron. what if what she told Harry that Cho was doing to him was what she was actually doing to Ron? anybody? ideas?

[humongoratdropping]

Yeah, you may be right...but still....these quotes can be interpreted many ways in a H/G romance

[humongoratdropping]

Harry would nearly die laughing, realize it was rude, think about it in his pea-sized section of his brain for romances, and realize that his two best friends were destined for each other.

[Frostbite_Panda]

O.o Wow...I didn't know how busy this post was. Oh well! All the better I guess!

Thanks and *glomps* to all of the warm-welcomners out there! ^.^ I certainally hope that I'll prove myself as worthy to be in the Auror Division! :)

:clap: To all the great posts! *Schnoogles*

:welcome: To Eric! Glad to have you here!

"That sounds lovely," said Hermione.
Ginny caught Harry's eye, and looked away quickly, grinning..

[Am i the only who sees something here...hmmmm?]

Also, during the Easter Egg part when Ginny meets Harry in the library. Why was there a lump in his throat, eh?

I think you are. I don't see why everybody thinks that every single little thing is a sign of inevitable "love".

And I think there was a lump in his throat because he had a fear that his dad was a malicious moron. I don't think it was because of seeing Ginny...I mean, why would he have?

Trumabar I agree. I might have not thought much of it though if it weren't for the progressive intimacy between the two during the book. (The Grawp incident, the centaurs, ect.)

Third I don't waste my time those are facts based on the books the fact that H/Hr choosed to see it another way it's not my problem.

This amuses me...because isn't that what debate is all about? ;) No offense, just a simple observation. ^.^ I don't even really know what your talking about. Nice to meet you GilyAnn!

I would also like to leave this horrible first post of mine with a little theory I have. Feel free to refute it.

I think the H/C "relationship" was really set up to show us that nobody, as of yet, can compete with Hermione in Harry's life...romantically or not.

Another thing, my big sis' fiancee pointed out is that Cho was looking for someone to support her. She chose Harry...when Harry was ready to topple himself.

Hermione is, in my humble opinion, much stronger than that.

My sister also pointed out that after Sirius' death, he's going to be pretty much over it. Not only over Cho...but over casual dating period.

And as we all know...Harry and Hermione would be anything but casual dating.

Harry and Hermione just seem to be on a whole nother levle. I love Ron as much as anyone. I know he's not going anywhere, but he's not moving forward either.

Let the angry bashing come. :rotfl:

~panda

[sone]

The GOF to me is where Ron and Ginny blew it. Harry went to take out the best looking girl (according to Dean) Parvati (who had been looking at Harry ever since she heard about the Yule Ball coming up) and Hermione went on to go with Krum (internationally famous quidditch player who had been looking to ask her from the start). But after that ball, everything changed.

[evaluna]

Original post by Avada Kedavra
the only counter argument offered (yourself included) was there are two ways of intepreting something.

Difference being, your way is wrong...JUST kidding! ;) Glad we can disagree like civilised persons. No, but seriously, if you'll notice, I placed heavy emphasis on context. In the context of the conversation, and in the context of a larger pattern of similarly themed conversations, and in the context of a wealth of other supporting patterns throughout OoP, just for starters, well, the evidence seems to much more heavily favour one interpretation...thus I sail the ship that I do. I thought I took my stand as courteously as possible whilst still maintaining the clarity of my argument...but cheers nonetheless!

Original post by Avada Kedavra
In other words, Hermione is thinking- Ron is tactless and clueless when it comes to getting Hermione. In other words, Ron is going about it in the wrong way and he is simply not picking up the clues (if they are provided). If he, Ron, does indeed, like Hermione, then why isn’t he doing anything about it? He is not (in Hermione’s opinion) making it totally clear that he likes Hermione, and refusing to take it up to the next level. Hermione wants confirmation, and Ron is not giving it, despite indications that he may like Hermione. Ron is seemingly stuck in a stalemate, and only giving timid steps that are lost in the complication of their strong friendship- i.e. perfume and his compliments to her.

AK, surely you jest? Short of a signed contract, what more could Hermione want from Ron by way of clues, statements, and obvious gestures? If she's hoping for him to be honest and upfront regarding his feelings, she could simply desist from cutting him off or telling him to shut it, perhaps in combo with a simple thank you for the slicker gestures he does manage to pull off [his holiday gift, for starters], etc., etc. Hermione's not dense regarding the emotional motiviations of others. Simple courtesy in their basic exchanges, even if just one-sided on her part, would probably be enought to shift the dynamic and give Ron the courage to come forward. And quite frankly, I think this all beside the point because we have every indication [I'll look up and ref the posts later, but there's been much documentation if you need it] that Hermione does have the wherewithal to put forward the conversation and steer it where she wills. After all, she gets quite a bit of info from Harry when she talks to him about his relationship stuff, so do you think Ron would be slicker and more evasive conversationally than Harry if Hermione were to bring up a relationship- or feelings-based topic? I think not. Perhaps a younger Hermione would have been more tentative if in fact she did or had ever fancied him...] but I just don't see it as a valid obstacle at this point.
Cheers!