CoSForums Archive - Book SIX: Who will fall in love with whom? Part Two

GilyAnn

August 2nd, 2003, 11:49 pm

First of all, it doesn't say Harry had to drag Hermione forward because she was frozen. It simply reads that when the glasses shattered, Harry reached back, grabbed her robes and dragged her forward. If Hermione was forzen, JKR would've clearly said so.

Secondly, you're right. Ginny didn't need to be helped because along with Ron and Luna, she left Harry, Hermione and Neville behind. When you run as fast as you can and don't bother waiting just a bit for your friends to catch up to see if they're okay, you usually don't need help.

It's clear to me that we don't stand there. We hex, we run. That should be clear by now.

What does that mean? How does Ginny being (barely) alive in the chamber prove she's powerful? Do you know WHY Ginny was still alive? Because Riddle was sucking out her life force and the process was a slow one. I'm sorry but that doesn't make sense.

Your perspective is not the right one but neither is mine. Do show me where does it explicitly say that it was because Riddle had to slowly suck her soul out that she is still alive. It doesn't make sense to me that Riddle who had already all of Ginny's strenth need a slow sucking movement when she was half dead already.

Okay, unless you can back that statement up with text, this is best left alone.

I'm not the one that is saying that physical contact is a sign of feelings.

All I can say is at least Harry had a reaction to Hermione going down as opposed to his reaction when he saw Ginny get hit.

Ginny got attack by a stunner.

Okay, Neville is hurt. But it's his nose that's broken, not his arm or leg. The real danger lies in the fact that Neville's speech is garbled due to the broken nose and therefore isn't able to perform the curses and jinxs no matter what wand he is holding. So the best thing he can do to help Harry is to carry Hermione. Harry is the only one among them who is effective at this point. He asks Neville to take Hermione to get help while he goes to find the others. Not because he doesn't care about Hermoine, but because he is the only one in fit condition to do anything while trying to locate the others.

And on another note, it's not Luna who hurts Ginny in the DoM, it's the Death Eater who had hold of her ankle. Luna shot a Reductor curse to blow up Pluto in his face, but he managed to hurt Ginny in the process anyway.

Even worst! So Harry is willing to leave Hermione with a guy that has no speech! Then he puts him to carry when in the first place he didn't want to take her!

Yes and you are right is the DE who breaks Ginny's ankle. Wonder why he dind't use a wand and had to use his hands for it.

If Hermione is interested in Ron and she mentioned this to Ginny, but bemoaned the fact that Ron seems clueless, or incapable of acting on his feelings, does anyone think it strange that Ginny hasn't given her brother a shove in the right direction, or not been seen quietly banging her head against the wall as Ron suffers another case of 'Foot-In-Mouth' disease?

I will give you IMHO on this. Although Ginny is close with all of her family the closer she is with is Bill and the twins next. So I don't think she would give Ron a push for Hermione. Mainly because Ron will reject and Ginny probably knows that.

humongoratdropping :welcome:

You're not the only one that sees it. The whole them catching each other's eye and looking away grinning has also happened in PoA.

And twice in OoP!

humongoratdropping, Fairydust Have faith he will but let's hope Ginny get's clueless. Nothing like a dose of your own medicine for us to die out laughing!

Exactly humongoratdropping. It is funny to me that Ron and Ginny never bothered to ask Hermione and Harry. They both missed out big time.

Or maybe the pairings were too early to star forming! Like JKR says in the fullness of time.

My take on the first quote is that Harry and Ginny find Hermione's struggle with a grudging respect for Luna's bravery and friendship at the MoM with her need to argue about the validity of Luna's belief in the Crumple Horned Snorkaks a funny one. They are both close to Hermione and know just how much that took for her.

Ok I'll take that as acceptable. But still they see the fun of it.

Now for the nitpickers: Let's nitpick Harry didn't laugh. what's next ?

The second quote I'm putting more to the egg that Ginny brings having the iced snitches which reminds him of the snitch his father was playing with in the memory of Snape's that has left him with a disturbing view of his father and Sirius, both of whom he looks up to immensely, and a feeling of hopelessness about contacting Sirius to confirm what he has seen.

Yes and you are correct on this one! You see I do agree sometimes :agree: But the whole point of the library scene is not this one alone. Is the wholes scenario who is great plus Chocolate and easter eggs. . . I can't discouss the rest here.

Hermione was having a nervous breakdown because of the veil. Hm. If I recall correctly, Hermione was becoming extremely agitated because Harry was entranced by the veil, and so were most of the others. Hermione never 'CLUNG' to Ginny for comfort in a time of fear, which is what my original question was referring to. Either I'm very confused, or it was mentioned umpteen pages back that Hermione clung to Ginny in a similar way that she clings to Harry, in order to dispute feelings between H/Hr. I still didn't receive any clarification as to when this incident of Hermione clinging to Ginny occurred in canon. If the scene in question is actually the veil scene, then I would be happy to quote the textual sentence that shows that Hermione was not 'clinging' to Ginny the same way she 'clings' to Harry. I'll wait for clarification before I continue with this particular topic.

This has nothing to do with shipping first.

First let's get under perspective. The thing is that physical contact is beginning to be a based for feelings. So if it is then Hermione and Ginny have something going.

Second yes Harry, Ginny, Neville and Luna are entranced at the veil. (hint posibly)

Harry may have his faults, but I have a hard time believing that he's such a cold-hearted little worm that all he cares about when one of his best friends is injured is the possibility of himself being blamed for it. I thought that it was generally agreed upon that even if his feelings are platonic, Harry cares for Hermione to some degree, enough to actually be concerned for her well-being when she's hit by a powerful curse and knocked out cold. I may have misunderstood you in the part I quoted above, GilyAnn, and feel free to correct me if that's the case.

You may feel it's enough but I wanted to wack Harry hard on the head. His feelings are platonic but gezz Earendil a little more concern it wouldn't have honestly kill him! He goes and looks at her and after thinking that he doesn't want her to be dead he thinks that it will be all his fault. Nice! Couldn't he had though of her being the friends of five years who have supported him and take notes from him and help study? I'm sorry but I don't feel that Harry showed enough respect for Hermione there. Maybe H/Hr do feel that it was enough but I didn't feel it was enough. It was one of the parts that made me realize how cracked this relationship is.

Harry cannot just leave the others to goodness knows what kind of horrors when it was his fault that they were all led into the DoM in the first place.

This is going to be funny but here goes. Harry was not responsable for Ginny and Luna. They offer to go knowing what could happend.

Neville was the one who offered to carry her. Neville himself said that Harry would be better at fighting the DE's than he would. And by the way, he didn't tell Neville to "watch over" Hermione. The girl had been struck by who-knows-what--Harry said that Neville needed to get her out of there and get help. He didn't order a babysitter to watch over his unwanted luggage.

Keep missing my point! Harry said to Neville ."..find the right door before any more Death Eaters come, I'll bet you can get Hermione up the corridor and into the lift..." Harry just orders Neville to get Hermione.

And I agree. My point was that it is presumptuous to assume that Hermione is completely lousy at practical defense when the only examples we've seen of her being unable to fend for herself is when she is PHYSICAL danger and deprived of access to her wand. Yes, she has panicked and behaved rather stupidly on occasion, which I conceded in my previous post (the baby-headed DE is one example). However, there is also text to support that she doesn't completely lose it in dueling situations and has proven herself to be competent there as well, which was also mentioned in my previous post.

Finally! something we can agree. Yes I do believe that she is not entirely useless. But I would honestly prefer that Hermione would be kept out of the dueling parts. It somehow guarantees her living thru the rest of the series and marry Ron someday :p . Extreme danger is not her strong part. Books? She can eat alive anyone!

I really have to ask this: If you have such a low opinion of Harry. . that his only concern is himself when the girl he has been best friends with since they were 11 is laying possibly dead at his feet. .then why on earth would you want such a cold-hearted little _______ (no point in typing the word out.It'd only get bleeped) with Ginny?

Is not about my opinion is the fact that Harry doesn't appreciate Hermione enough. Harry showed more concern for Ginny when she dissapeard than for her friend of 5 years. I don't want Hermione to end up with a guy that doesn't appreciate her. Ron may tease her, bicker and looks out so she checks his and Harry's homework but at least he shows some appreciation that so far Harry has never shown. At least Ron (even though he teases her) shows intrigue and interest in her stuff. He may bicker with spew and hates it but at least he cares enough that he fights with her so she hears out his opinion. He cares when she has one of those I got to do something things but he cares enough to hate it because even though Ron has a lot to mature at least he shows some caring for Hermione that so far I failed to see on Harry. Mind me that I don't even like the pair but I still see it that way. Ron with all his bickering and fighting and teasing still shows a lot more signs of appreciating Hermione than Harry.

Gily Ann

Hope1272

August 3rd, 2003, 12:19 am

<Quote>GilyAnn

Even worst! So Harry is willing to leave Hermione with a guy that has no speech! Then he puts him to carry when in the first place he didn't want to take her!

At this time, the other three are missing and he is the only one with any hope of holding his own while searching for them in order to get them out. A Neville with disabled speech and without his wand is not Harry's first choice to take care of Hermione, but there really is no other choice in the situation. Harry wants to send Neville and Hermione back when there is an opening and no other Death Eaters around in order to get Hermione out and to get help for what is a very bleak situation for them. Neville is the one who insists on carrying Hermione with him while he goes with Harry, unintentionally making it harder for Harry with his show of loyalty of not leaving Harry alone.

Simply, he has no other choice if he wants to help Ron, Ginny and Luna. If he carries Hermione, it would make it very hard to duel effectively with an unconcious body impeding his movement. Harry being able to fight as effectively as possible gives all of them a better chance of getting out.

Whatever the reason for the Death Eater to use his hands instead of his wand, the fact remains he was still able to physically catch Ginny. Not that it matters to me because no matter how gifted they are, they are all still kids against adult witches and wizards. Ginny's prowess or nonprowess with magic isn't why I'm not for a H/G ship. And my personal opinion for having Ginny in the library scene is simply having someone who would be willing to go with Harry's desire to contact Sirius because Ron and Hermione wouldn't and how often do we see the twins in the library? :lol:

sone

August 3rd, 2003, 12:27 am

Not to mention Harry is still holding the prophecy as well as his wand. Let's just throw an unconscious body top of that.

noddwyd

August 3rd, 2003, 12:28 am

Wow Gily, that post was quite shocking. However, nothing could be further from the truth. If Harry was really that heartless, then we can expect him to kill Tom and take his place. But everyone has their own opinion, I guess.

GilyAnn

August 3rd, 2003, 12:33 am

Whatever the reason for the Death Eater to use his hands instead of his wand, the fact remains he was still able to physically catch Ginny. Not that it matters to me because no matter how gifted they are, they are all still kids against adult witches and wizards. Ginny's prowess or nonprowess with magic isn't why I'm not for a H/G ship. And my personal opinion for having Ginny in the library scene is simply having someone who would be willing to go with Harry's desire to contact Sirius because Ron and Hermione wouldn't and how often do we see the twins in the library?

Ohh! You missed my point! That wasn't related to Ship my comment on the feet.

On the library nooooo. Ginny giving chocolate eggs to Harry is a very important, funny and great thing! ;)

Wow Gily, that post was amazing.
:blush: Ahhh! Thank you!

Gily Ann

Mad Eye Mike

August 3rd, 2003, 12:45 am

It's clear to me that we don't stand there. We hex, we run. That should be clear by now.

Ok, what do you me 'WE'? Were you there? Is this how you know Hermione was frozen?

Your perspective is not the right one but neither is mine. Do show me where does it explicitly say that it was because Riddle had to slowly suck her soul out that she is still alive. It doesn't make sense to me that Riddle who had already all of Ginny's strenth need a slow sucking movement when she was half dead already.

Actually my perspective is the correct one and it's shared by millions of other HP readers. Riddle was killing Ginny by slowly taking her life force. The book makes that very clear.

Scholastic Edition: Chapter 17: The Heir of Slytherin: Pg 310

I'm not the one that is saying that physical contact is a sign of feelings.

Doesn't matter who started it. What matters is you said if physical touching is the sign of a ship, then Hermione & Ginny can count as one. Now I ask you, where's the proof?

Ginny got attack by a stunner.

And your point is?

Evaluna and Earendil - Amazing posts today! Blew me away! :clap:

AvadaKedavra

August 3rd, 2003, 12:47 am

Turambar :lol: Actually, Gollum is a double-double (or whatever you call it) agent. I'm being a bit cautious on what information I divulge him, as he could easily blurt everything back. Instead, I am coaxing information out of him about the wicknedness that resides upon the HMS Harmony, and how the Auror Division is actually the Ringwraith division, on the tantalising promise that I'll let him touch the ring around my chest. (As if!)

Gily-Ann, so sorry to steal your thunder with this post- that was an exceptional post. But I really need to get this out of my system.

Here is the long-awaited Five Stage Theory.

I must ask for your patience as you read through, your thorough reading of it, because this is essentially my fundamental vision of Ron and Hermione's relationship and it is this upon which all posts I make are based one.

You could say, this is my very own R/Hr bible, and please respect the fact that I have put in A LOT OF EFFORT in it, and any mistakes/contradictions are the result of genuine hardworking and accidental omissions, and not twisting and dishonesty. I have tried my very best to make this AS FAIR AS possible, and I sincerely hope that you enjoy this.

Please read carefully.

My Vision of Ron and Hermione.

As so exquisitely put by Davydee:

In the early books we see them as petty squabblers. More often than not provoking each other over minor points.

As they grow up a little we see these petty squabbles develop into deeper rifts, where neither will acknowledge the other for a period.

As adolescence and hormones dawn those deeper rifts evolve into arguments over personal boy/girl issues – very adolescent issues.

As they enter the second half of their teenage years they have a tendency to tone down their views and start to learn to accept each others differences.

With a few exceptions, they have done with the childish squabbling, with the pre-pubescent disagreements, with the adolescent arguments.

What I am going to do is to go through point by point, and show eventually how this progression of their relationship points to an R/Hr pairing in the future, with my Five-Stage-Theory.

STAGE 1: Inauguration

In the early books we see them as petty squabblers. More often than not provoking each other over minor points

Ron and Hermione, it appears, take a “disliking to each other” from the moment they meet. Hermione seems “snobby” as she points out that Ron has dirt on his nose, and seems very boastful afterwards. Her conduct towards Ron, and also Harry seems to be condescending, and Ron objects to this. He expresses dislike to Hermione. He wishes aloud that he is not in the same house as her, and visibly shows disappointment when she is. Ron and Hermione, who start off on a rocky basis, are forced together by the sorting hat. There is nothing they can do about it.

This continues throughout the Chamber of Secrets, and there is often pointless sniping and bickering. Notice JKR is so quick to clarify them as “opposites” or in other words, antagonists. So, early in the series, we get the impression of two very different people, who have different views and perspectives on life, who seemingly are going to be argumentative and allow that to play a significant role for the rest of their relationship.

However, there are traces of underlying caring and concern for each other early on in the books- in that they have a fundamental friendship which is shrouded by their arguing. Those are often shown in “flashes” of caring.

Such examples of this are;

Hermione screaming and being anxious about Ron as he sacrifices himself during the chess match in PS/SS and Ron standing up for Hermione and cursing Malfoy in CoS. Those are reminders that at this moment in the series, Ron and Hermione ARE, however unlikely it may seem, good and caring friends.

Thus we get a general picture of two people, who argue constantly and have quite opposite personalities, but deep down, genuinely care for each other and have a fundamental friendship.

I don’t think any of us can dispute this, and this is not in any way to prove an R/Hr relationship. This merely is to prove the first part of their relationship progression correct, before we go to the other, more vital stages.

Therefore, we have a set routine of bickering between the two, right from the start. But we also have another side to R/Hr, which is not shown much. This is the caring, friendly and thoughtful side to both, which at the start of the series, is not expressed much.

STAGE TWO: Expansion

As they grow up a little we see these petty squabbles develop into deeper rifts, where neither will acknowledge the other for a period.

The trio enters the phase of puberty. We see that Harry starts noticing girls, and gets feelings at the bottom of his stomach. Surely Ron and Hermione will experience similar feelings, deep down too, as they enter puberty? We are not told of who they may have feelings for, all we are told, from the text, is that the volume of their arguing and bickering increases HUGELY. Ron and Hermione arguing more coincides with the start of puberty.

Now, I am not insinuating anything here. At this stage, there seems no apparent sign of feeling, so I will not assume that there is at the moment. But what I do notice is even bigger arguing between the pair.

The strange thing is, the material of their arguments is not that different from what the material was in through PS/SS to CoS. They argue even more, as they start puberty, over similar trivial stuff, leaving no apparent reason to their increased arguing.

Ron and Hermione can easily reach a compromise over their pets. But they don’t. Right from the start, Hermione’s pet takes a disliking to Ron’s pet. This continues throughout the year.

As the year progresses, we get more “flashes” of caring, for example Hagrid telling Ron that Hermione was very upset when Sirius tried to stab him. Hermione still cares a lot about Ron, despite the fact that the pair are at loggerheads throughout the year. Ron is kick-started into caring, showing Hermione that he cares, by helping out with Buckbeak. He says this with passion and fierceness. This clearly touches Hermione, who bursts into tears and hugs him.

Now, I am not insinuating anything here. I am merely saying that whilst we have escalated levels of vicious sniping for no proportional reason (bigger arguments should have bigger reasons), there remains a caring and thoughtful side hidden beneath that we learn of, which is becoming more sentimental.

At the end of the year, Ron gets a new pet. It is Pig. Interestingly, the first thing he does is to go to Hermione’s pet, and seeks Crookshanks’s opinion of Pig. It is only when Crookshanks voices his hearty approval, (purring) that Ron accepts his pet.

Remember, at the start of the year, the pets of Ron and Hermione were at loggerheads. But at the end of the year, the pets are at harmony (pardon the pun) and they like each other. If the pets symbolised the karma/desire of Ron and Hermione, then POA was a big book, in terms of the changing feelings and desires of people as they enter puberty. In other words, the planting of the seeds.

STAGE 3: Culmination

As adolescence and hormones dawn those deeper rifts evolve into arguments over personal boy/girl issues – very adolescent issues.

The hormones start kicking in. As we know from Harry, feelings start developing and coming out in the open- i.e. conscious feeling. But we don’t know about Ron and Hermione’s feelings. Those feelings, to some degree, are kept hidden from us, to start with.

We finally start to glimpse Ron and Hermione’s possible adolescent feelings as the Yule Ball approaches. It is traditional for people to go to balls with “partners”. We see that Ron becomes increasingly interested about Hermione’s date for the ball, and half-denies that she could actually have one.
Eventually, in a sheer moment of panic, when he and Harry don’t have dates, the obvious suddenly becomes, well, obvious. Hermione is a girl. Ron then asks her to go with either Harry or Ron. Hermione refuses, because, she of course, is going with Krum. But Ron doesn’t know that.

Ron is extremely curious as to who Hermione’s partner is. This is because he is displaying the first external hints of his deep down, emotional feelings for Hermione. Ron doesn’t even at this moment, properly realise his feelings for Hermione, but they are manifested in his probes into Hermione’s private life.

And then comes the Yule Brawl- a legendary moment between Ron and Hermione, in whichever way perceived, will change things between them forever.

Ron, at the sight of Krum with Hermione, is hit badly. His feelings for Hermione, which before this, have been slowly bubbling up, take a huge, sudden upsurge, fuelled by jealousy. Ron feels anger at Krum, and whilst he does not understand (not fully) the feelings himself, he makes up a mental excuse for these feelings, jealousy and anger. Ron’s subconscious feelings are surfacing, and whilst the conscious has not yet identified them, it shrouds those feelings over, in other words, denial.

Hermione blushes hugely in her responses to Ron’s jibes, and is clearly uncomfortable about the whole situation. She is experiencing new emotions- emotions of embarrassment. Whilst there is nothing really indicated here, there are new and uncomfortable forays by Ron into Hermione’s private life. Hermione feels embarrassed and uncomfortable. R/Hr are now dealing with adolescent issues that previously were non-existent.

Cut to the huge argument. Now, JKR has us jump to only the closing stages of the argument. But from what can be gathered from those stages, at some point Ron confronted Hermione about the events that night. Ron, with his jealousy probably provokes Hermione into justifying herself/ her stance. A bit of to-and-fro-ing occurs, and Ron probably says that he doesn’t like it. Hermione, more shrewd at perceiving Ron’s feelings than Ron himself, suspects what Ron himself fails to recognise- that he may have feelings for her. She then tells him to NOT to ask her as a last resort NEXT time there’s a ball.

Now, I personally believe that this statement does not tell us much about Hermione’s feelings for Ron. But what is interesting is the choice of wording. Hermione does not cancel out the possibility of her accepting Ron as a partner for a ball.

It would be entirely different, of course, had Hermione said this instead- “Well, if you don’t like it, you’ve got to respect people and not to ask them as a last resort, and not to ruin their nights, then!” This would leave no mention at a future event, no future possibility and no future hope.

I don’t know much about how the statement reveals about Hermione’s feelings at that time but it is a very interesting choice of wording, which leads me to believe that Hermione was hurt by Ron using her as a last resort. I mean this in that Hermione was hurt that Ron attempted at other girls, before falling back onto her, implying that Ron doesn’t think of her as a girl, but rather as a friend.

I think the Yule Brawl had a significant impact on both. Hermione, in that she started to suspect that Ron had feelings for her, and subconsciously, examine what she felt at this, if it was true. Ron, in that he pondered the truth in Hermione’s statement, and thus began the slow process of examination of his own feelings for Hermione, consciously.

Fleur Delacour. A wonderful, stunning girl. The main attributes that she has are her stunning and beautiful looks. Not to mention that she is also, to some extent, clever. (This is likely, because the Goblet judged her most worthy to be a champion.)

We are told (clearly) of Hermione’s dislike of Fleur. Is it possible that Hermione dislikes Fleur, because she possesses what Hermione doesn’t have- outstanding beauty? Quite so, especially as we learn of Hermione’s dislike of Veelas and the Veela connection to Fleur. It is also possible that Hermione, deep inside, is jealous of Fleur’s beauty AND knowledge, despite also having other reasons to dislike her.

So, when Fleur kisses Ron, this is immediately followed by a “reaction” by Hermione. This is a hugely vital point, so I will be painstakingly going over the quotes for this.

"Fleur then said to Ron, 'And you too— you `elped—' 'Yeah,' said Ron, looking extremely hopeful, 'yeah, a bit—' Fleur swooped down on him too and kissed him. Hermione looked simply furious."

Ron is being hopeful that Fleur will kiss him. Fleur, in effect, makes Ron’s hopes come true. Ron is hoping that a very attractive girl will kiss him. And when his hopes are made true, we immediately see Hermione’s reaction, right after Fleur kissing Ron. It is arguable that this is a “continued reaction” from Harry’s kiss, but take a look at the following.

"'It's very good already,' said Ron in a strangled sort of voice. Fleur smiled at him; Hermione scowled."

What I like the most about this quote is the use of the grammar and syntax. Note the sentence Fleur smiled at him; Hermione scowled. This is a very telling sentence, as it shows Hermione’s reaction as Fleur does something. It does not leave to speculation that it could have been a “continued reaction”. It is set in stone that this reaction happened as this happened. Fleur smiled at Ron, and Hermione scowled as she did this. Fact.

I am not saying for sure that Hermione scowled because Fleur smiled at Ron. It could be that Hermione was scowling at someone making fun at her at the same time. But I will interpret this as Hermione scowling because Fleur smiled, and because this correlates directly to the quote above, I will draw my conclusion that Hermione is jealous because she thinks that Ron is attracted to Fleur.

Now, Hermione is at the same stage as Ron was at the Yule Brawl- allowing subconscious feelings to surface and manipulate reactions to such. However, she is in denial to this, like Ron was earlier at the Yule Brawl- developing mental excuses. And also if there are signs of jealousy past the Yule Brawl, which if true, this has significant underlying ramifications for what Hermione said at the Yule Ball.

All in all, GOF is a huge book in terms of growing adolescent feelings which surface and cause Ron and Hermione to act in certain ways, the culmination of this being the Yule Brawl, which has a significant impact on both Ron and Hermione and their feelings, and how they behave later on.

STAGE 4: Resolution

As they enter the second half of their teenage years they have a tendency to tone down their views and start to learn to accept each others differences.

This stage obviously occurs in OOTP. Ron and Hermione are now 15. Ron and Hermione are very good friends, but seem to have suppressed the progression of feelings sparked off by the Yule Ball.

Hermione seems to be constantly struggling with this. Hermione's growing feelings for Ron are a somewhat of a "clash" against her logicality. Hermione likes everything to be "logical" and follow set rules and likes everything to be generally explainable. But love certainly does not fall under this category.

Hence she is split over this. Part is fighting/denying the illogical- the illogical being that she is having feelings for Ron, who has been her opposite argument partner for the past few years. This is why her feelings are taking so long to emerge from the subconscious, whilst Ron on the other hand is more willing (but not by much) to examine those feelings and deal with them consciously.

One of the other parts is examining the illogical, and attempting to make sense of it- probing and exploring. Hermione is teetering. She still has her suspicions of Ron having feelings for her. Hermione has a problem here. She is very insecure about this sort of thing, as is proved by her blushing every time this subject is encroached.

Hermione, whom you would not expect to accept sexism, seems to accept the inherent sexism of the traditional view that it's the boy's responsibility to make the move. Hermione tells Ron to ask her before anyone else does next time there’s a ball regarding the Yule Brawl. This does not help. This confuses Hermione whilst she is feeling insecure, she wants something more of a sign by Ron. She wants a “confirmation”, no more, no less.

And at the same time she is examining the nature of her own feelings for Ron, who always argues with her. Part of her is still in denial and this frustration is outleted via the arguments, lashing out at Ron, as if it's his fault that she's falling in love with him. The frustration that "drives" the arguments is also coming from Hermione's helpless situation. She sees herself in a no-win situation, and finds it difficult to kick-start the relationship into romantic realms, due to her insecurity and fears.

Hermione, deep down, wants Ron to help her out of this situation, she wants him to do something- i.e. ask her out which will give her a DIRECT reason to drag her feelings out in the open, and get it off her chest. In other words, she seeks the "confirmation" which will lay the path for her to escape this emotional turmoil.

Hermione is divided over this. However, part of her consciously realises that she has to make some move and do something about this. But this is, unfortunately countered by the other parts of her which still deny it and other parts which are frightened and insecure.

Could the strength of Ron and Hermione's friendship be part of what's getting in the way of either one of them, especially Ron, 'making the next move'? In other words, does the fact that they're such good friends blur the lines a bit as far as their intentions with one another?

For example, Harry was aware from fairly early on that what he felt for Cho was of a romantic nature. He didn't want to just 'go hang out' with her or go chase the Snitch around for awhile on the pitch. He never once thought of her as 'one of the guys'. She was blushing and flirty most times that she encountered him unless she was with Cedric. Harry knew the distinction.

With Ron and Hermione, on the other hand, they already know each other so well. They've seen each other at their worst and at their best, both physically and emotionally. They've had huge arguments and managed to work their way through them without permanently damaging the relationship. They've made decisions together in life-threatening situations. They've obviously both vowed to protect Harry, as a team if necessary. They would die for one another. And this is all within the scope of their 'friendship'. It's got to be a little weird to go back now and tentatively ask the other if they want to do something or giggle and 'wonder if he's looking at me'.

Ron has seen Hermione act much the same way with Harry as she does with him, and he knows Hermione and Harry are just friends (in spite of his momentary doubts: "How do you know?"--but you know he wouldn't have asked if he really thought there was something going on!) So even with Hermione giving signals to Ron that would ordinarily be construed as romantic, short of telling Ron straight out that she likes him or snogging him breathless, he could technically interpret almost any signal as nothing more than her wanting to 'be just friends'. Hence, no 'next move' from Ron because he's afraid of being rebuffed or laughed at or both (in his mind he probably sees her laughing and saying, "You want to be what, Emotional-Range- of-a-Teaspoon? With me?”)

She's at the same disadvantage--many actions that would ordinarily be construed as part of a romantic relationship--spending lots of time together, discussing everything, bickering, always knowing that you automatically have a partner for the DA exercises or other classes,--are already part of their everyday relationship. So how does one tell, exactly, when the next move has been made and the tables turned--and even if it seems to be a move that's romantic in nature, was that the intent?

Hermione kissed Ron on the cheek. This could be interpreted as a sign of [b]encouragement from Hermione. If Ron’s feelings are significant, and that Hermione knows some of them, then why is Hermione kissing him? A gesture this affectionate is bound to give some encouragement to Ron, which if he makes a move, will make things more awkward if Hermione really doesn’t have any feelings for him. This is an example of the small, timid moves by Hermione, to attempt to provoke that “confirmation” that she wants so desperately. Hermione is thinking-

“If he does like me then he will interpret this as a move, and will respond with something bigger. If not, I could easily pass it off as a friendly gesture. After all, I did it to Harry last summer.”

But, unfortunately, Ron is hesitant before responding. Ron is more in the dark regarding Hermione’s feelings than she is to his. In fact, he does interpret the kiss in the way that Hermione doesn’t want him to. As a friendly gesture.

When an ample opportunity to encourage Ron arises (from our point of view), Hermione falters. Why?

Hermione didn't respond better to the perfume because she wasn't sure that it was a "move." Here she is waiting and waiting for a "move" and when it comes ... well, was it a move? Maybe he got cologne for Harry after all! Who knows?! Hermione could be totally scared to death that she's going to respond too positively to it and make it so obvious that she wants it to be a move, when in the end Ron will come back and say: "Perfume? I meant to get you Dungbombs, the perfume was supposed to be for my mother. The presents must have gotten switched."

So, she goes for playing it cool: "And that perfume's really unusual, Ron."

Ron answers back just as casually: "No, problem .... Who's that for, anyway?"

Hermione is probably blessing her lucky stars that she didn't make a bigger deal of it. Remember, for all Hermione's insights into female mentality - she misses certain "girly" traits. This is an example of “Hermionesque”, not an example of “Parvatish”.

This is a perfect example of Hermione's logical mind exploring/fathoming every situation and coming up for a possible explanation for it. And this is also a perfect example of their friendship blurring the “romantic” moves. And, unfortunately, this trait impedes R/Hr, instead of improving it. And this is another reason why I think Hermione wants something more- something like the "confirmation".

If Ron confirms his feelings for her outright, Hermione cannot just stand there and think for a possible explanation for it- "Oh, he's mistaken me for Molly"- this is the stark truth, which is the much-needed catalyst for an otherwise frustrating stalemate.

I would also like to note that when I read the scene, the first thing that came to mind (apart from the romantic nature of the perfume) was the extreme casualness of the whole situation. It was so casual- the event barely registered a blip on either’s radar. This led me to examine further possibilities of as to why this could be, and I came up with the above, and this fits in perfectly with my overall interpretation of their relationship.

I think part of their problem in OOTP is that they are resisting a change in the 'status quo' of their strong, satisfying friendship whether consciously or unconsciously, by stalling on ‘moves’, being hesitant, and not taking the plunge for fear of what might happen if they are wrong. The other side is that they're already such a strong couple in all but the romantic that it's going to make it more difficult to recognize the first indications that the relationship is evolving into a romantic one. Although, once it starts, there'll be no stopping it because the two of them already have the most difficult parts of forming a strong and healthy relationship out of the way.

One of the most significant parts in OOTP showing Hermione’s feelings as I have interpreted them so far and taking in mind what I have said so far is manifested in that quote. (no, you’re not).

"You should have told her differently," said Hermione, still with that maddeningly patient air.

Now I take this as Hermione being very, very patient at Harry’s apparent cluelessness. Harry is clueless, tactless and generally naïve about this area. This area is getting the girl that he wants.

"You should have said it was really annoying, but I'd made you promise to come along to the Three Broomsticks, and you really didn't want to go, you’d much rather spend the whole day with her, but unfortunately you thought you really ought to meet me and would she please, please come along with you and hopefully you'd be able to get away more quickly?

Hermione is explaining patiently to Harry what he should have done. She is explaining without the merest trace of hesitancy to Harry that he should pretend Hermione Granger is really annoying and why he doesn’t want to be there to meet her. She is telling Harry to give his crush an impression that he doesn’t find Hermione interesting (at that moment.)

And it might have been a good idea to mention how ugly you think I am too," Hermione added as an afterthought.

The critical point here is that Hermione said as an afterthought. Hermione, who has in the very previous sentence explained to Harry why he should give the crush the impression he doesn’t particularly find Hermione interesting, is adding something directly related to this. Hermione is on a train of thought. She is thinking about the very situation, and adding things as new things come to light in the conversation that could potentially be useful to the conversation.

"But I don't think you're ugly," said Harry, bemused.
"Harry, you're worse than Ron....

Harry has just paid Hermione a compliment, if it can be interpreted that way. Directly relating this to the overall scheme of things, Harry is clearly not picking up on Hermione’s advice. He is bemused, as the canon states. Harry is still tactless and still clueless.

As I said before, these traits Harry shows are shown on a specific area. This area is getting the girl that he wants.

Harry has just displayed tactlessness and cluelessness on how to get the girl he wants. Hermione is still on that train of thought. As this occurs to Hermione, another thought occurs to her. A thought directly related to tactlessness and cluelessness on how to get a girl that is wanted.. That thought, unarguably, is Ron.

Hermione’s mind springs to Ron when she thinks of tactlessness and cluelessness on how to get a girl that is wanted. And who does Ron want, as almost universally agreed here? That girl happens to be Hermione.

In other words, Hermione is thinking- Ron is tactless and clueless when it comes to getting Hermione, if he has feelings for her. In other words, Ron is going about it in the wrong way and he is simply not picking up the clues, for example, the kiss (if it was intended the way I think it was.). If he, Ron, does indeed, like Hermione, then why isn’t he doing anything about it? He is not (in Hermione’s opinion) making it totally clear that he likes Hermione, and refusing to take it up to the next level. Hermione wants confirmation, and Ron is not giving it, despite indications that he may like Hermione. Ron is seemingly stuck in a stalemate, and only giving timid steps that are lost in the complication of their strong friendship- i.e. perfume and his compliments to her.

Harry is being tactless and clueless on how to get a girl that he wants. “Oh! He’s worse than Ron!” thinks Hermione.

Well, no, you're not," she sighed, as Ron himself came stumping into the Hall splattered with mud and looking grumpy.

But, ironically, Ron walks in. Ron in the flesh. Ron who wants Hermione. Ron who is merely yards away from Hermione. Ron who is being muddy and grumpy, whilst in an ideal and romantic world should be walking to the girl of his dreams, smartly dressed with a bunch of flowers.

At this moment, Hermione wonders if Ron really does have feelings, in her despair. He doesn’t seem to be doing anything significant, not to the extent that, she, Hermione wants. And that is the confirmation.

Hermione retracts her statement, with a sigh, often a sign of despairing.

I found this very sad and depressing. It seems that nothing can go right, and every small attempt to break this deadlock during OOTP is blown out of the water.

However, as indicated by the name of this stage, this stage is about resolution. Hermione and Ron seek resolution to this deadlock- and in their opinion, even if the other doesn’t have feelings for them, this cannot go on. One good thing during this stage is the resolution to their basic connection, which so long ago, in the inauguration stage was established- their arguments.

Ron is maturing fast. Part of OOTP is about the accumulation of Ron's gradual maturation. In GOF, he thought Hermione was lying when she said she'd got a date for the ball, although thinking Hermione was lying could be a mental denial that she actually had someone other than him to cover his surfacing subconscious feelings. At the ball, he neglected Padma even more grossly than Harry neglected Parvati, and created a scene with Hermione and Krum. For the rest of the book he plagued her with remarks about "Vicky" and suspected him of being evil. By the end of GOF he'd matured to the point where he could overcome his animosity and ask Krum for an autograph, earning a little respect from Hermione (she smiled at this.). But he was still feeling desperately jealous, trying to see what Krum and Hermione were talking about.

Krum is mentioned twice in OotP. In the first scene he uses the name "Vicky" and she shows her boredom at the “continuation” of this “joke” ("ho, ho!"), but it's a brief scene, and as far as we can see it's the first time anything like this has happened for months. The second Krum scene is just after the Harry/Cho kiss, the infamous Post Kiss Analysis. Within the last few minutes Hermione has called Ron the most insensitive wart she's ever had the misfortune to meet, and said he has the emotional range of a teaspoon, yet on hearing she's writing a "novel" to Krum he doesn't explode, he says nothing, he just looks disgruntled. Not only is he vastly more mature than a year earlier, he's more mature than he was in OotP's first Krum scene a few weeks earlier. He also restrains himself and is generally more “diplomatic”.
Hermione is responding to this, and showing her “caring” attitude to Ron more, despite her huge internal struggles. The dialogue between them has changed, and I like one such example.

"He's lost his mind," said Ron in almost an awed voice.

"Yes," said Hermione irritably . . . "Yes, I'm starting to think he has. But unfortunately, he made Harry and me promise."

"Well, you're just going to have to break your promise, that's all," said Ron firmly. "I mean, come on . . . We've got exams and we're about that far . . . from being chucked out as it is. And anyway . . . remember Norbert? Remember Aragog? Have we ever come off better for mixing with any of Hagrid's monster mates?"

"I know, it's just that--we promised," said Hermione in a small voice.

Ron smoothed his hair flat again, looking preoccupied.

"Well," he sighed, "Hagrid hasn't been sacked yet, has he? He's hung on this long, maybe he'll hang on till the end of term and we won't have to go near Grawp at all."

I found this excerpt to be particularly interesting because it appears that Hermione and Ron have switched roles. Ron is appealing to Hermione with logic (i.e., here's the objective reasoning showing why this is not a good idea), while Hermione seems to rely on the subjective (i.e., we can't break a promise to our friend; it's wrong to break a promise). Usually Hermione would argue with logic, while Ron would take the subjective/emotional track. I think this dialogue demonstrates that Ron and Hermione are maturing, realizing that issues can be approached from more than one perspective, or, at the very least, it shows that Hermione and Ron know each other well enough to know the arguments that will convince the other.

Also note how Ron gives his opinion "firmly", but then softens when Hermione indicates that she would be uncomfortable breaking her promise to Hagrid. He suggests a scenario in which Hermione would not have to break her promise. This also shows Ron's burgeoning emotional maturity. In the past, I believe Ron would have continued a tit-for-tat dialogue with Hermione indefinitely (e.g., "I won't break my promise." "You have to." "I won't." "You must.") That doesn't happen here. Instead, after a moment of reflection, Ron diffuses the situation by suggesting an alternative resolution. I don't believe Hermione has convinced him that she is right, because he did not retract his firmly stated position. However, neither does he maintain that Hermione must break her promise. It's almost as if he is sympathizing with her or comforting her, saying, "Let's hope you won't have to break your promise after all."

This has significant good bearings as his growing maturity will cause him to realise that he in fact, cannot continue in this stalemate. Thus, he may give in and take the risk, plunge into the relative unknown and give Hermione that “confirmation” that is wanted badly.

Fortune favours the brave.

STAGE FIVE: Reconciliation

The coming together and eventual unity of what were once polar opposites.

From now on, is total speculation. It may be that I am totally wrong, but my speculation is based on my intensive study of the previous four stages of the R/Hr relationship, and a measured guess at what would come next. I would expect that some sort of external circumstance that “pushes” things over the edge, and for the matured Ron, this is a bit too much. He will “confirm”. That, or a huge argument, which like the POA argument, will result in a reconciliation, and this time, their feelings will be dragged into the open, and there will be no hiding.

Speculation, but there are many, many ways in which Stage Five can occur. I would be not at all surprised if this is dragged over two books, because if you look at the difficulty facing R/Hr at the end of OOTP;

We have feelings for each other, shrouded by insecurity, confusion, misunderstanding and ideas about rationalism/logicality.

We have misdirected attempts to break this stalemate, which only prolong it when they fail, blurred by the scope of their fundamental friendship.

We have mounting levels of frustration siphoned into a pre-set bickering routine established by the personality clash between them.

We have their substitution of romantic electricity by the electricity generated by the bickering to whet deeper and insatiable appetites for romance.

We have an emerging and growing side to them that includes caring and sweet moments between them.

Finally, all there is left for me to say is to reiterate Davydee’s wise words which inspired me to this theory.

Anyone see a pattern emerging here?

Does anybody not think that it might be remotely possible that JK set up the antagonistic relationship in PS/SS, developed it through CoS and PoA, culminated it in GoF, and begins to resolve it in OotP, because it makes interesting reading.

Ron and Hermione.

A wonderful tale of two people who detested each other from the beginning, learnt slowly but surely to change this across many stages and many years, into something so unbelievable, but yet so strong.

Signing out,

An exhausted Avada

GilyAnn

August 3rd, 2003, 12:55 am

Actually my perspective is the correct one and it's shared by millions of other HP readers. Riddle was killing Ginny by slowly taking her life force. The book makes that very clear.

No it is not! JKR perspective is the correct one when someone has an tunel on JKR's head we can debate the correct perspective. Until then your perspective, mine and the millions of HP fans is not the correct one.

Doesn't matter who started it. What matters you said if physical touching is the sign of a ship, then it's Hermione & Ginny. Now I ask, where's the proof?

"Without speaking, Hermione took hold of Ginny's arm, Ron..." 775

So if physical contact is base for feelings Then Hermione and Ginny have something going.

And your point is?

Yours?

Gily Ann

Edit:

AvadaKedavra :tu: :clap: :clap: AMAZING!!!

I mean WOW! There were stuff there that I haven't even though about! I love it!

_BT_

August 3rd, 2003, 12:57 am

hello all:

sorry in advance to interrupt the flow of discussion here- a quick introduction:
i have lurked on and off, here and there around different HP fora around the net (mainly just to keep up with current rumors and whatnot) for a while but it wasn't until after finishing book 5 (great read btw) that i actually felt compelled to actually join in on the online discussion. maybe it's just because there are so many possibilites left open after OoTP; perhaps even more so than book 4 (which left a slew of questions at the end)... so anywho, what better place to start posting then in the romance thread (which is obviously the most popular point of speculation involving HP)...

just skimmed through the last 50 or so pages of this thread and all i can say is... wow... to see so many people speculate and dissect the heck out of what is bascially a minor sub-plot in the books. not that doing so is a bad thing, it's just kinda fascinating. also so is how forum-users start to divide up into little sects supporting h/hr, h/g, etc. i've noticed the h/hr seems most prominent here while at other sites like hpn, you see a lot of h/g.

anyways, i'll throw in my opinion of each potential couple in turn-- it's probably nothing you all haven't heard before (what with 50 pgs of dicussion n all) but all the same, now everyone will know where i stand

Harry/Hermione:
The most talked about, and with good reason considering HP and HR are the two main male/female characters respectively. So it must be obvious that they hook up eventually, right? Well maybe so, and then again maybe not. I always thought pre book 4 that it would never happen becuase it just seemed too cliched and predictable to put the two leads together. But then again, after reading book 4/5 i have to admit that there are clues here and there. but then again maybe these "clues" are just attempts to read in between the lines when there's nothing there. hard to say because up to this point jk doesn't really outright write a lot of romance in the books (except with harry/cho) but instead just hints at feelings and leaves subtle clues, etc. I'd put good odds on h/hr happening though, and the one i'd probably most like to see (something about it just fits)..

Harry/Cho:
Now a lot of people have a dislike for Cho after 5... but i don't really. While Cho did act a little 'off' in OoTP, Harry also acted somewhat immature w/ her as well. (heck, but then again who doesn't at 15?)... anways.. most people have closed the door on this one mainly because harry supposedly has gotten over his crush (i think that's debateable-- he could've just been having an immediate but temporary reaction) and cho has 'served her purpose.' in any case i believe cho hasn't gotten over harry due to the train scene in book 5. i do believe that future h/c is not very likely but jk never fully closed this one off so a reuniting is possible. i'd place marginal odds on this.

Harry/Luna:
Suggested pairing but not enough to go on at this point. I do believe the two will become great friends in 6/7 but a deeper relationship is debateable. Although something developing here is possible, something tells me it just won't... i'd give it low odds.

Harry/Ginny:
the second most popular one and i can't really figure out why... maybe it's just because i've never found ginny that much of a likeable character. anyway, while i think the two characters would work for each other i don't see this happening for a couple of reasons. first off, at present, i believe both harry and ginny feel nothing for each other. harry has never said anything or left any of those jk subtle feeling hints that would suggest so. and ginny, while admittedly had a crush earlier, seems over it. in book 5 she has a totally different attitude and talks to harry in a manner that does not suggest those sorta feelings. now this is not to say that she won't develop something in the future but considering that new groundwork would have to be laid for this (as opposed to H/Hr) i don't really see it happening with only 2 books left. Marginal odds on this in my opinion

Ron/Hermione:
Another popular one. While a lot of ppl would like all the main characters to hook up with each other and create 'one big happy family' of potter/granger/weasley, there's only 1 main female character, whereas there's 2 main male characters... someone's gotta get the short end of the stick, and i believe it's ron. maybe this is where harry/ginny+ron/hermione fans come from, since that creates the 'big happy family.' personally i think that's kinda lame, and rather see h/hr and then see ginny and ron get people that aren't potters or grangers. however while i'm not really a fan of this one, i think it's very possible of happening. groudwork has been laid for the possibility.... especially in book 4. i think at the very least, ron is feelin something....possibly there's mutual attraction... i know there are clues that point in that direction (just look at the post above mine... nice work btw) despite what i'd like- good chances on this.

Ron/Luna:
Once again, we don't know a whole lot about Luna quite yet... but I'd say there are at least _some_ hints in book 5 to suggest this happening. Strong possibility that this could develop... and i'd actually rather see this than r/h for some reason. i'd place a good bet on this.

Ginny/Neville:
We really don't see _too_ much of either of these to say for sure... but from what we do hear: i think would point more in favor of this than of h/g. and (although this doesn't necessarily mean anything)... they did go together in the yule ball... plus it can be argued that there are clues pointing to this... anyways i'd rather bet on g/n then h/g...

Well, there you have it.... i guess one thing that makes speculation on hp romance so popular is the fact that jk has kept hinting at things here and there while really avoiding writing too much about it. and up to this point nothing is really set in stone... all possibilites are pretty much open

all for now as i settle into inevitable newbie status for my next 100 posts :)

haycheng

August 3rd, 2003, 1:01 am

physical contact, different between same sex and different sex
This is indeed the whole gender switch thing again. We can not simply compare same sex interaction with different sex interaction. For intance, I used to sleep with my female cousins until I am around 12, but I can no longer do that. It is simply wrong to do so. I am more aware when I have physical contact with a female than a male. I would not mind hit my male friends but I certainly would not do so with my female friends. May be because I am Asian, I would feel uncomfortable ever hugging my own sister now.

To AK , mind help me with the R/Hr moment? I am too lazy to find all of them in OFTP. I hope you trust my judgement and believe me, I will try to be as neutral as possible.

PS: AK, your post is long and well...a lot of your vision in it. I will wait and see. I will :nc: for now.

evaluna

August 3rd, 2003, 1:07 am

Original post by GilyAnn
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote: Earendil

Harry may have his faults, but I have a hard time believing that he's such a cold-hearted little worm that all he cares about when one of his best friends is injured is the possibility of himself being blamed for it. I thought that it was generally agreed upon that even if his feelings are platonic, Harry cares for Hermione to some degree, enough to actually be concerned for her well-being when she's hit by a powerful curse and knocked out cold. I may have misunderstood you in the part I quoted above, GilyAnn, and feel free to correct me if that's the case.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Response: GilyAnn]
You may feel it's enough but I wanted to wack Harry hard on the head. His feelings are platonic but gezz Earendil a little more concern it wouldn't have honestly kill him! He goes and looks at her and after thinking that he doesn't want her to be dead he thinks that it will be all his fault. Nice! Couldn't he had though of her being the friends of five years who have supported him and take notes from him and help study? I'm sorry but I don't feel that Harry showed enough respect for Hermione there. Maybe H/Hr do feel that it was enough but I didn't feel it was enough. It was one of the parts that made me realize how cracked this relationship is.

GilyAnn: I respect your position but as you've said before, I feel as if we've read two different books. You're being a bit harsh on Harry IMO. Harry collapses with worry at Hermione's side after she's been felled by the DE [Dolohov]. Then later whilst Harry is gripping an unconscious Hermione, at the point to which you're referring, the text mentions that Harry was in such a panic that he couldn't think straight. He was petrified of looking into Hermione's face, because he wasn't sure if she had survived. He says twice "don't let her be dead" and then right away "it's my fault if she's dead". Sounds to me pretty plainly like he's terrified of having lost her and is already blaming himself for her death. This is not a selfish reaction but a very natural one that people have had since time immemorial. At Neville's dubious word of a pulse in Hermione's wrist [Harry is grasping at straws here, and again it's a normal reaction, that is, grasping at the possibility of life rather than confirmation of death], Harry nearly faints with relief. Whatever else you may say, I have to respectfully disagree with any portrayal of Harry as unconcerned, disrepectful, or otherwise heartless or uncaring of Hermione. Seems to me like he cared very deeply indeed.

MEM: thanks very much! BTW where do I apply for my standard-issue invisibility cloak & firebolt upgrade kit [hyperdrive natch] ? Are they what're behind one of those locked door inside your offc.?

HayCheng -- nice post!

BT, Welcome! I agree with your odds, pretty much all of them. Laying heaviest odds on H/Hr myself, and keeping fingers crossed!

AK I disagree overall, but thanks very much for laying everything out in your R/Hr post. Let the shredding begin! :lol: However, I'll have to get back to you on this...and I'm sure my fellow shippers will have plenty to say till I do.
Cheers!

GryffindorGal

August 3rd, 2003, 1:15 am

Hermione enough. Harry showed more concern for Ginny when she dissapeard than for her friend of 5 years. I don't want Hermione to end up with a guy that doesn't appreciate her. Ron may tease her, bicker and looks out so she checks his and Harry's homework but at least he shows some appreciation that so far Harry has never shown. At least Ron (even though he teases her) shows intrigue and interest in her stuff. He may bicker with spew and hates it but at least he cares enough that he fights with her so she hears out his opinion. He cares when she has one of those I got to do something things but he cares enough to hate it because even though Ron has a lot to mature at least he shows some caring for Hermione that so far I failed to see on Harry. Mind me that I don't even like the pair but I still see it that way. Ron with all his bickering and fighting and teasing still shows a lot more signs of appreciating Hermione than Harry.

Gily Ann

ROFL. He asks what happened to her, Luna answers him and he tells Luna to take care of her. A few minutes later Ginny takes a spell in the face and not a bit of concern out of Harry.

However none of what you wrote in the rest of your reply answers my question: Why you'd want a boy that you seem to have such a low opinion of anywhere near Ginny. Surely Ginny would be better off with Neville (his inability to dance notwithstanding) than with a boy who can watch her get hit in the face with a spell and not react. At least Neville should some concern for her outside of Umbridge's office.

Daveydee

August 3rd, 2003, 1:24 am

My sister also pointed out that after Sirius' death, he's going to be pretty much over it. Not only over Cho...but over casual dating period.

And as we all know...Harry and Hermione would be anything but casual dating.

I don't see the connection between Sirius' death and Harrys attitude toward casual dating.

I'm glad you made the point about H/Hr being anything but casual if it were to happen - because that is one of my big problems with this ship. It's put forward by H/Hr folk as the lifelong, utopian relationship that all aspire to but which few achieve.

That really is not a typical teenager's approach. Let's get in the real world here - Harry's not thirty-something, you know. He's 16.

Nor does it fit either the books themselves, or JK's stated view that romance in the books will be light hearted, realistic and played down.

:clap: Good overnight posting AK - don't you sleep? (asks DD who's up at 6am on a Sunday morning)
:clap: :clap: :clap: Terrific post on the 5 stage analysis. Wonderful.

Fairydust

August 3rd, 2003, 1:26 am

Daveydee I love your sig. and that's so true, H/Hr is put out as the utopian relationship and a teenage relationship is anything but utopian. go R/H.

Mad Eye Mike

August 3rd, 2003, 1:33 am

No it is not! JKR perspective is the correct one when someone has an tunel on JKR's head we can debate the correct perspective. Until then your perspective, mine and the millions of HP fans is not the correct one.

I'm sorry to inform you but yes it is. CoS made it very clear that Riddle was draining Ginny's life force and was becoming stronger as time went on. This is in the book as written by JKR. I'll say no more on this.

"Without speaking, Hermione took hold of Ginny's arm, Ron..." 775

So if physical contact is base for feelings Then Hermione and Ginny have something going.

That makes no sense whatsoever. H/Hr shippers have said Hermione grabbing onto Harry in times of crisis/fearful moments is indicative of a subconscious feeling she displays where she'll reach for Harry and not Ron even when both boys are there.

The example you provided is clearly out of context. First of all it was one instance and secondly, it was Hermione trying to save little Ginny from probably walking right into the veil.

H/Hr shippers have never said every single little touch has a potentially romantic meaning. If that were the case, then everyone would be with everyone. Please keep in mind context when presenting evidence. Hermione was leading Ginny away from the veil. She wasn't grabbing onto Ginny for protection like she does with Harry. If you can find an instance where Hermione grabbed onto Ginny for protection, then you have something. If not, there's no connetion to be made between the H/Hr grabbing and the lone Hr/G one.

Yours?

I'm confused. I said this:

All I can say is at least Harry had a reaction to Hermione going down as opposed to his reaction when he saw Ginny get hit.

And you replied:

Ginny got attack by a stunner.

And so I'm asking, what's the point? Why are you replying by asking me what's my point?

fairy dust - It's funny how the H/Hr relationship is now considered utopian and yet all this time r/hr shippers have said the reason they wouldn't work is because they don't really get along.

evaluna - Don't concern yourself with what's behind the locked door in my office. ;) Your standard-issue invisibility cloak & firebolt upgrade kit has just arrived and you can pick them up whenever you want.

GilyAnn

August 3rd, 2003, 1:36 am

However none of what you wrote in the rest of your reply answers my question: Why you'd want a boy that you seem to have such a low opinion of anywhere near Ginny. Surely Ginny would be better off with Neville (his inability to dance notwithstanding) because atthe very least he showed some concern for her outside of Umbridge's office.

Your answer was in my post. Harry shows more concern for Ginny when she dissappeard than she showed for Hermione. Harry was bother when Riddle mocked Ginny. Harry shows more consideration and respect for Ginny than he shows to Hermione. It' clear to *me* than Harry even as early as book 2 found Ginny as likeable material. It's clear to me that Ginny is one of the few persons in Harry's life who can make it snapped out of his self center self and help him concentrate on the problem. In many ways Ginny is a better suit for Harry than either Ron or Hermione. Simply because she is the combination of both of those personalities. Ginny is funny, smart, strongwilled, powerfull, carefull and suits Harry very well. But Harry in return has much things that Ginny clearly likes and shows them. So in many ways they complement each other.

Harry is somewhat annoyed with Hermione and perhaps is the reason why sometimes he doesn't react as real friend should. But to me it's very clear that Harry is not atracted to Hermione.

I have other reasons but overall but all of this is IMHO, off course!

Gily Ann

Fairydust

August 3rd, 2003, 1:39 am

fairy dust - It's funny how the H/Hr relationship is now considered utopian and yet all this time r/hr shippers have said the reason they wouldn't work is because they don't really get along.

I didn't say it all of a sudden became a utopian relationship. i think you need to go back and read a few more posts. and anyhoo i don't know of any R/H shipper that said H/Hr wouldn't work because they wouldn't get along. Harry and Hermione are friends of course they'd get along.

Frostbite_Panda

August 3rd, 2003, 1:52 am

I don't see the connection between Sirius' death and Harrys attitude toward casual dating.

I'm glad you made the point about H/Hr being anything but casual if it were to happen - because that is one of my big problems with this ship. It's put forward by H/Hr folk as the lifelong, utopian relationship that all aspire to but which few achieve.

That really is not a typical teenager's approach. Let's get in the real world here - Harry's not thirty-something, you know. He's 16.

Nor does it fit either the books themselves, or JK's stated view that romance in the books will be light hearted, realistic and played down.

My point was, that Harry's going to be much more subdued...he's just had this awakening reality check. He just learned of his destiny as well. I don't think that he's going to be having anymore crushes. He's going to push everyone away, and only trust the ones he trusts now. I see dark times ahead.

And who said the H/Hr wouldn't be light-hearted, realistic and played down? It is in my opinion that any romance with Harry involved wouldn't be very light hearted anyways, so...

The Harry and Hermione romance, to me, would be more of a spiritual, deeper, and more intimate partnership. A more intense relationship than what they have now.

Basically, if you get right down to it, if JK keeps building on the H/Hr relationship, they're going to cross that little line and not even know it.

I really don't think I made a point in this post...but it's 1:30 and I was just going to go off to bed when I saw this post. I'll get back to it when my brain is in one spot. You made some great points though...I'm afriad I just can't do justice to them at this percise moment.

(I'm also an ineloquent 14 year-old I might add. >.< And a complete newbie to debating.)

*Glomps* to everyone!

And AK that's a wonderful essay! I'm going to have to do justice to it when I don't feel like my mind has been stomped on a couple times. Great effort on your part!

Eva Thanks for the compliments! And the links really interested me! I wish I was eloquent as you. :whistle: And the "FrBP" thing or whatever really amused me. ^.^ I've never been called that before.

:wow: Sorry...as you can see...I'm not all with it right now....*shakes head*

~panda

Mad Eye Mike

August 3rd, 2003, 2:13 am

evaluna

August 3rd, 2003, 2:15 am

Frostbite Panda I'll call you FBPanda for short, if that's alright? You made your point justs fine, and I agree with all of them. And it may very well be that the love in Harry's life, whilst not all fun and games, as Harry is Harry and love is what it is, nonetheless it may be the one shining thing in Harry's life, the only [sometimes] lighthearted thing he can rely on. And in Book 6, I think you've hit it -- it will be all about trust. Before love can flourish, there must be trust. Same, before Harry can defeat Voldy, he must be able to trust those who will accompany him into the fray. And so forth...where has the night gone? Actually it's come and gone...back in a bit...

DaveyDee, you may want to check out the link on 'no more crushes for Harry' in my post on p. 54 of this thread. It will take you directly to the earlier post, if you'd like to review. It doesn't relate to Sirius per se, but his death would of course be a part of Harry's awareness of the burdens and obligations in the larger world that he must shoulder. BTW I *really* love your avatar. I covet it. I will be in touch when the time comes...

Fairydust, I recommend the link for you as well. Please let me know if you require clarification on any points, and whatever I can't answer I will refer to my more senior shippers.

P.S. Believe me when I say I'm quite sure Mad Eye Mike has read all the posts...One of the many requirements of his position as lead Auror, of course...

MEM: I understand. Protocol and all. You'd have to kill me, of course ;) I'll be around shortly to testfly the upgrade. Still, with cloak in hand, you'd better keep that door locked.
Cheers!

Frostbite_Panda

August 3rd, 2003, 2:23 am

evaluna Yes! That's fine. ^.^ Seeing as we already have a FP. And thank you for your compliments! They explained what I was trying to say quite a lot more clearly. As I said...my brain's hanging by a thread. Thanks much! *Glomps*

Great posts, by the way, to all!

~panda

AurorSlayer

August 3rd, 2003, 2:45 am

noddwyd

August 3rd, 2003, 2:55 am

I agree with pretty much everything you just said, Slayer. welcome to the thread.

Daveydee

August 3rd, 2003, 3:06 am

Fairydust - Considering you've just joined the love thread debate (I have not), you've missed many r/hr shippers use the ''H/Hr don't really get along' as a reason they shouldn't get together argument. I suggest you go back a read a few posts yourself to get a better understanding of where many of your shipmates come from. I also suggest you carefully read a post to avoid any unnecessary miscommunication like in this instance here.
I'll answer that one.

Neither have I just joined the debate (nor would I make the presumption that anyone who had just joined has not read previous posts).

Can I suggest that you go back and find a few posts where R/Hr shippers on this forum including the likes of AvadaKedavra, Mutant for Hire, RowenaRavenclaw and myself, use that argument. Cut and paste quotes as you see fit.

duynd

August 3rd, 2003, 5:28 am

Harry is destined to be forever alone, at least in this 7 book series and especially if Ron and Hermione hook up like people expect. I doubt Rowling will turn her books into a love match free-for-all by pairing up everyone either.

I don't agree. Harry needs the power of love to defeat Voldermort. Now he has nobody to love (his parents, Sirius) so I think he will love a girl in the last two books (I hope she will be Hermione)

Elric

August 3rd, 2003, 8:29 am

I'm writing to praise the incredible post from Avada Kedavra on their '5 Step' process in the R/Hr relationship. I am in awe of the amount of research and intellectual effort that must have gone into formulating such a theory, and trust me I don't awe easily.

I wouldn't even attempt a step by step refutation as I really don't think I'd be up to it. I also can't refute the overall theory as, unfortunately, we haven't seen the 5th stage yet, and it's impossible to prove or refute a hypothesis until the 'experiment' has completed.

As a further thought about the 5th stage and an 'external' stimulus getting one or other to declare their feelings. How much of a push do they need? I'm thinking particularly of events in the Dept. of Mysteries, as both Ron and Hermione were badly injured, in Hermione's case there was a, momentary, fear that she had been killed. I'm using a rule of thumb for the 'badly injured' part as something that Madam Pomfrey can't fix overnight.

This may sound a bit 'forensic', but Ron & Hermione were both in the hospital ward for three days, both had the 'opportunity' and if they have the strong feelings for each other that is suggested they had the 'motive', to at least say something about how important each is to the other.

As of the end of OOTP we don't seem to have seen evidence of this having happened. Although, it could be suggested, something along these lines may have occurred, it just isn't going to play out until book six.

Comments?

FlyingPhoenix

August 3rd, 2003, 9:47 am

Nice post and a :clap: to AK though I do disagree :lol:

This continues throughout the Chamber of Secrets, and there is often pointless sniping and bickering. Notice JKR is so quick to clarify them as “opposites” or in other words, antagonists. So, early in the series, we get the impression of two very different people, who have different views and perspectives on life, who seemingly are going to be argumentative and allow that to play a significant role for the rest of their relationship.
Its true they are opposite to each other but the interest point is that through PS/SS after they make friends and COS they less bicker as in any other book. I can tell why this do happen in PoA and GoF its not hormones or only a part of it. Its much more the fact that Hermione who is a muggleborn witch is going to get her own view about the magical world. In PS/SS and COS they are pretty in the same line because Ron knows this world much better but from PoA till now Hermione starts to develop an own very much away from Rons view a new opinion about things. In POA was it not believing in unlogical facts and in GoF was it SPEW this two things do very much bring this two apart.

Now, I am not insinuating anything here. At this stage, there seems no apparent sign of feeling, so I will not assume that there is at the moment. But what I do notice is even bigger arguing between the pair.

Its because of they pets that they argue more as ever. I don't know how this year could be if this fight haven't happen maybe just like COS.

Ron and Hermione can easily reach a compromise over their pets. But they don’t. Right from the start, Hermione’s pet takes a disliking to Ron’s pet. This continues throughout the year.

They could thats true but they don't do it because they think both they are right and the other one is wrong. This is why they are opposite. Thats the main reason why they bicker both think they are right and have the need to show how wrong the other one is. The question is only why? To triumph over the other or to see that the other learn something or just the wish the other one agree.

Ron is kick-started into caring, showing Hermione that he cares, by helping out with Buckbeak. He says this with passion and fierceness. This clearly touches Hermione, who bursts into tears and hugs him.
Here is where I really disagree because if I right remember Harry thought this fight might be the end of there friendship and I'm sure Hermione thought the same thing in other words Ron could have say everything and Hermione had react just like that. Something like "The sky is blue!" and she would burst into tears and hugs him. Its not important what he say its important that they end this fight what nearly cost this friendship. And how I read in PS/SS is friendship something rare in Hermiones life. So she wasn't touched by his words, she was reliefed that they don't go apart.

At the end of the year, Ron gets a new pet. It is Pig. Interestingly, the first thing he does is to go to Hermione’s pet, and seeks Crookshanks’s opinion of Pig. It is only when Crookshanks voices his hearty approval, (purring) that Ron accepts his pet.

At this point the reader get that Ron, too did realise that this fight they had could easiely cost they friendship and its important to know that Ron was ashamed that his pet was wormtail and that Hermiones pet did realise it that say Ron don't wanted again be ashamed if this owl is again a animagus or an enemy of Harry so he shows it this cat and know this owl is allright.

Hermione, more shrewd at perceiving Ron’s feelings than Ron himself, suspects what Ron himself fails to recognise- that he may have feelings for her. She then tells him to NOT to ask her as a last resort NEXT time there’s a ball.

Now, I personally believe that this statement does not tell us much about Hermione’s feelings for Ron. But what is interesting is the choice of wording. Hermione does not cancel out the possibility of her accepting Ron as a partner for a ball.

First I don't want comment this Ball but I will comment this last resort thing. Its true Hermione said if there is an another ball he should ask her before anybody else. Why dos she say that? Dos she say it because she want go out with Ron? No, she say it because Ron did ask her as a last resort. If Harry did ask her and Ron would go jealousy at the ball because of Krum than she did say it different. She would in that case indeed say "If you don't like...!" Is just the fact that Ron asked her and not that she wanted go with him. After this trol comment I wouldn't even thing she would go with him even if Krum didn't.

Hermione blushes hugely in her responses to Ron’s jibes, and is clearly uncomfortable about the whole situation. She is experiencing new emotions- emotions of embarrassment.

I don't think its that new its just new for her that someone dos infact tell her that she is betraying Harry and that Krum didn't want go with her because of her. He wanted it because of Harry thats in every age embarrassem.

It is set in stone that this reaction happened as this happened. Fleur smiled at Ron, and Hermione scowled as she did this. Fact.
Yeah, it is fact but its not fact that Hermione react this way because she like Ron more as a friend. I think it was Buckbeack who said that female friends do react like that and it don't need to mean she like Ron. To make it clear Hermione dos act like that because its the very first time that a girl and not any girl its a girl which Hermione already don't like gives affection to both boys and well both boys are Hermione's best friends and If you read this scenes Hermione is pretty out of action and that isn't normal for her if she is together with them.
Its true its indeed interest that JKR write it that way but I start to think she did it because we should think its only Ron so she can create this rumor R/Hr but insteed mean H/Hr. Its to make Hermiones feelings unclear. But in that case I'm fully with the non-shippers.

Hermione seems to be constantly struggling with this. Hermione's growing feelings for Ron are a somewhat of a "clash" against her logicality. Hermione likes everything to be "logical" and follow set rules and likes everything to be generally explainable. But love certainly does not fall under this category.

Yeah, I agree but only if we change the name not Ron its Harry.

She is very insecure about this sort of thing, as is proved by her blushing every time this subject is encroached.

Not really because she blush everytime it comes to her own private conversations with Krum. Not because of her feelings.

Hermione tells Ron to ask her before anyone else does next time there’s a ball regarding the Yule Brawl. This does not help. This confuses Hermione whilst she is feeling insecure, she wants something more of a sign by Ron. She wants a “confirmation”, no more, no less.

She do say it because Ron did indeed ask her and not because its the old fashion that the boy have to make the first step.

And at the same time she is examining the nature of her own feelings for Ron, who always argues with her. Part of her is still in denial and this frustration is outleted via the arguments, lashing out at Ron, as if it's his fault that she's falling in love with him. The frustration that "drives" the arguments is also coming from Hermione's helpless situation. She sees herself in a no-win situation, and finds it difficult to kick-start the relationship into romantic realms, due to her insecurity and fears.

This can I interpret in another way for example if Hermione know Ron likes her and if Hermione likes Harry than is it very possible that she has a problem and for some reason is Ron guilty on her problem. That he is visible after her but she don't want it because she want someone else.- That explain why she react by side that rude against Ron because he is part of her problem.
There comes her comment into play "You are worst than Ron!" Its one part of clueless and the other part about problems. See Harry isn't that much her problem not yet. Its Ron who seems to like her more as a friend and the possible that Hermione don't like him back. She can't tell him this because first its kinda strange if your best friend comes to you and tell you you like her. What a big fight could start there?! If I look back than I see PoA where she nearly lost Ron as friend and GoF where Ron react rather rude against Hermione. So if she tells him he likes her. He might tell her things which aren't the best things in the world. So she wait till he get ride of it or till he comes to her and say it. In this case is Ron indeed worst as Harry. Because Hermione has suspicious feelings for Harry which she try to hid and try to understand but his comment that he indeed don't think she is ugly don't help her thats why he is at first worst as Ron but as she spotted Ron she know this problem or rather Ron's feelings for her are much more worst as Harrys cluelessness about her feelings.
Ron and Hermione.

A wonderful tale of two people who detested each other from the beginning, learnt slowly but surely to change this across many stages and many years, into something so unbelievable, but yet so strong.

This gos pretty both ways you could even say that about H/Hr and that is what JKR did. She did let it open for interpretation. She give a possible for both shipps and give hints and scenes for exactly both ships. Even the Yule Brawl can you turn around and look what Harry did or Hermione did say. Its interest that JKR dos that.

sone

August 3rd, 2003, 10:12 am

This is why I see a fall out happening. The GOF is where Ron and Ginny blew their chances, not increased them. I do not need to explain Ron, however Ginny never bothered to ask Harry. She just figured there was a line waiting out the door and he would of just chose them other than her, so she immediately accepts Neville's proposal not knowing that Harry does not have a dance partner. It was obvious that Ginny was not only surprised but upset at hearing this news. So she goes with Neville, meets Michael Corner and starts going out with him. She tells Hermione that she has given up on Harry but that does not mean she doesn't like what she sees. ;)

Much to Krum's chargin, it is not Ron who Hermione talks about very often, it is Harry. Hermione focuses her attention on Harry and almost completely ignoring Krum during the end of the second task. Then Fleur comes around (as I've said before, singing his praises) and kisses Harry twice on each cheek for saving her sister. Then she kisses Ron who looks extremely hopeful for even 1/10 of what Harry just got. Hermione does not like this girl from the start and after the verbal bruising she got from Ron about "fraternizing with the enemy", here he is begging like a dog for a kiss from Fleur (Harry's competition as well) in front of Hermione. It was like she got slapped twice in the face very hard. She is fuming and Krum, looking at all this is probably like "what the hell is going here?"

But after the judges give the contestants their scores, Krum tries to get Hermione's attention again, but he can't and is put out by the fact that Hermione is too busy clapping for Harry to listen. Krum between the end of the second of the task and near the third task is asking what there is between Harry and Hermione. Harry who has been getting battered with questions about Hermione being his girlfriend from the Rita Skeeter article immediately assumes Krum has been reading it as well and just as soon tells him that Skeeter is making things up. Krum however does not stop there. Personally I do not think it is the article that bothers him. It is that he says paraphrased "Hermione talks about you very often." The last time I remember someone talking about Harry very often was Ginny during the second book. Ron says she has been talking about Harry all summer.

In any case, Harry assumes "well duh. Were friends. Of course she is going to talk about me." Now while they're approaching the train, Fleur comes up the steps, hurrying to see Harry off yelling his name. Fleur is hoping that they will see each other again and telling Harry that she is hoping she can get a job here to improve her english. Ron of course compliments her english and Hermione is seen scowling. Again, it is like she got slapped twice. This girl who was so vain and arrogant is completely different around Harry. Ron never apologized for his behavior at the Yule Ball and while he reacts sharply to Hermione going with Krum all the time, he does the same thing with Fleur. That would piss me off too. Hermione was embarrassed and humiliated by Ron at the Yule Ball yet the same things he tore Hermione a new one for, he is doing the same with Fleur. A little hypocritical. Do I think Hermione was jealous? Yes, but not of Ron and Fleur but of Harry and Fleur. But that is just my opinion.

humongoratdropping

August 3rd, 2003, 10:46 am

Why would Harry really engage in a relationship though w/o struggling through like the first 500 pages of Book 6 b4 coming terms with Ginny?

noddwyd

August 3rd, 2003, 11:08 am

Plus, Ron and Harry never resolved their fall out from before. They never talked it out, or anything. And actually, I see a falling out coming either way, or at least one of them becoming distant from the other two. And then you have to take into account that Ron has predicted his own death many times, even if it is as a joke. Nice to finally see your entire theory, AK. But its like you said before, I think it was you anyway. Its just one of those things that further strengthens my own theories.

Earendil

August 3rd, 2003, 11:13 am

AK, I commend you on your thoughtful research and well-organized theory. :clap: Well done.
FP, nice rebuttal to AK, and I hope you don't mind that I'm adding a few things.

AK, I won't go through and refute certain statements in your post as much as I can, because it's the theory in its entirety that I'm responding to rather than an individual details. It seems that some of my posts are most curiously being ignored (not necessarily by you), so I would hope that you consider my reply and I won't have to send tricksy Gollum after you (who, BTW, is loyal to the Harmony under punishment of an elven rope-noose). ;)

Your theory fits together very neatly, with one glitch. It doesn't account for Harry. I understand that it is an analysis of Ron and Hermione's friendship and romantic potential, but the fact is that this relationship cannot effectively be assessed without taking the third part of the trio into account: Harry. On their own, Ron and Hermione's friendship takes an entirely new light. Add Harry and there are inevitable complications.

If Hermione's only best friend with whom she had shared all these heart-stopping experiences and moments of bonding was Ron, there would be absolutely no debate as to where her heart lies. However, in addition to Ron, she has this other best friend who has never treated her antagonistically, has indeed managed to express appreciation for her skills, and shares mutual caring with her. One might even say that Hermione is forced to subconsciously assess the different qualities of her two best friends in comparison with one another. Harry has certain characteristics that also appear in Hermione's only love interest to date, Viktor Krum, who is almost the polar opposite of Ron. When Harry disagrees with Hermione over certain issues, Ron is invariably on Hary's side rather than Hermione's. When Harry disagreed with Ron once over the course of five books, Hermione was automatically on Harry's side.

It's these type of things that factor in immensely in the R/Hr relationship. Take Harry out of it and it all makes perfect sense; put him back in and it's much more difficult to see whom Hermione cares more for.

Regarding the "confirmation" Hermione is seeking from Ron: Hermione is an intelligent girl. How, in God's name, is she still in any doubt as to how Ron feels about her? AK, after your thorough re-hash of the events of GoF, I almost wanted to yank my hair out over how obvious Ron's crush on Hermione is. I always knew he had a thing for her, but it's remarkable how glaringly obvious it is when all the evidence is staring you in the face. The thing is, it cannot be only obvious to readers because all his "signals" have appeared in the presence of Hermione herself. Unless she is truly daft, she has picked up on the fact that Ron is A) insanely jealous of Viktor Krum, B) giving her perfume, of all the awful things, for the very first time, and C) even acting weird about her and Harry. I understand your point that she is waiting for more clear-cut confirmation, and I agree. But for a different reason. The fact that she has not been going out of her way to behave strangely around Ron, the way he has done for her, indicates that she is not doing anyting to encourage him. An author like JK Rowling, so adept at covering all the bases in laying down her groundwork, has done nothing to show that Hermione is "tentative" concerning Ron and his feelings for her, or that she is making timid steps toward ascertaining said feelings. One perfect opportunity missed: the novel-length letter in the PKA. Write in one sentence of Hermione mentioning something about Krum with the intention of gauging Ron's reaction and I know I would have been satisfied. Another perfect opportunity missed: When Terry Boot is gushing over Hermione's brilliance, a furtive look from Hermione toward Ron to see what he thought about it. I could go on with all the missed opportunities to show more of the feelings that may be going both ways between Hermione and Ron, which brings me to my next point.

Stagnation.
AK's analysis showed that there was a sufficient buildup of possible feelings between Ron and Hermione prior to OotP. I myself was fully expecting to see some form of development in Book Five as to where Ron and Hermione were going with all this tension. I even expected this tension to culminate and erupt in a declaration of feelings and a temporary relationship, just for the purpose of resolving this weirdness going on between these two. Instead, I was shocked to find that instead of progress, there was stagnation. The tension went down and there was more nothingness in the scenes between Ron and Hermione. Sure, there was some more getting along and actually showing respect, but I was overwhelmed by the complete lack of any evidence of anything happening when the two of them were alone. There are two books left and an almost stand-still in the development of Ron and Hermione's relationship. I believe it was Sirius83 who brought up the point of Ron taking two steps forward and Hermione taking two steps back: or, Hermione taking two steps away from Ron and toward Harry.

Ron's feelings most obviously continued in OotP, but the author lost several opportunities to show anything about Hermione's feelings for Ron. AK made a point about Hermione being tentative and waiting for some kind of confirmation on his feelings, but I'm afraid that even after looking through the evidence my interpretation tells me that she has done absolutely nothing to encourage or provoke his feelings for her. Once again, the issue of Harry in the trio creates this gigantic complication in the quandary of Hermione's feelings, and there are indeed Hr-->H moments that--at best--question the presence of Hermione's feelings for Ron, and--at worst--dispute them entirely.

humongoratdropping

August 3rd, 2003, 11:21 am

Quote:
"Once again, the issue of Harry in the trio creates this gigantic complication in the quandary of Hermione's feelings, and there are indeed Hr-->H moments that--at best--question the presence of Hermione's feelings for Ron, and--at worst--dispute them entirely."

Not really, I agree with Harry complicating things, but when Fleur kissed Ron on the cheek in GoF, Hermione looked furious. Is this considered a provocation?

sone

August 3rd, 2003, 11:31 am

No, because the author was clever to cover up exactly what Hermione was furious about.

humongoratdropping

August 3rd, 2003, 11:32 am

Isn't it a bit obvious though?? Ron has a thing for Hermione and vice versa and Hermione was jealous.

sone

August 3rd, 2003, 11:38 am

On the front, yes. But other issues have to be taken into account. One, Hermione never liked Fleur. She thought she was vain and arrogant. That was clearly established before the Yule Ball. Two, Ron embarrassed and humiliated Hermione accusing her of "fraternizing with the enemy" or that Krum was somehow using her to get to Harry. Fleur is also competing against Harry yet Ron finds no problem in fraternizing with her. That's hypocritical don't you think? You have to remember, Harry and Hermione had no idea what Ron was so upset about. Hermione I am guessing found out what he was upset about during their argument when Harry was talking to Cedric.

humongoratdropping

August 3rd, 2003, 11:41 am

You're right, i guess. Hermione does seem to have this major thing with hypocrisy. (not that most teenagers don't, just Hermione has erm..a particular thing against it.)

sone

August 3rd, 2003, 12:00 pm

Also note that when Ron accused Viktor of using her to get close enough to Harry to sabotage his chances or get inside information, Hermione voice start quivering. She took that particular insult very personally.

humongoratdropping

August 3rd, 2003, 12:02 pm

Well, yeah, wouldn't you be a little offended if you were in a trio of best friends and one of them accused you of turning traitor on the other?

sone

August 3rd, 2003, 12:19 pm

humongoratdropping, personally I would of hit Ron so hard, his face would hit the ground before his knees did. He spend the rest of school year walking upside down. But that's just me.

Anyway, what I mean is Hermione was only the most upset when he accuse Viktor of using Hermione to get to Harry.

DumbledoreTheWise

August 3rd, 2003, 12:26 pm

:clap: for AK! Amen! Does amen even work in that context? Ah well. Good job.
R/Hr forever! I'm not an insane shipper, but I'm an R/Hr fan and a Ginny/Harry fan, and I am confident that the Genius (Jo Rowling) will write it that way, even if it is more minor than the rest of the plot.
and to everyone who still ships H/Hr after all the blatant evidence to the contrary: :nc: Only JKR will convince you otherwise. Can't wait until then!

lleyki

August 3rd, 2003, 1:24 pm

Hermione's Help to Harry in Crisis

PS/SS
She is the one who sets Snape's robes on fire. Granted Snape wasn't the real criminal but the fact is by doing that she inadvertently stopped Quirrel too, when she accidentally knocked him down. This was the first time that Hermione effectively saved Harry's life. Ron, Hagrid, etc. were just sitting around worried but no one had a clue what to do. Hermione thought fast on her feet and she saved his life. Interesting then that people don't seem to think they have some connection. However I guess that only works when one is completely useless before the other saves them. Good, must remember that one.

Hermione was the one to figure out the Devil's Snare. It is irrelevant whether or not she initially panicked and made a dumb statement. The fact is that at the end of it all, SHE was the who remembered a spell and knew what to do. She saved ALL three of their lives. Incidentally it is something to note that while Harry thanked her; Ron chose to mock her freezing up.

She solved the Potions puzzle. I've actually read persons saying "oh well that wasn't an emergency or intense situation, like when they were being faced with the DE's." I wonder if persons are conveniently forgetting that with one wrong slip-up, Hermione and Harry could have ended up drinking poison. Puzzles require logic, like Hermione said and being rational and yes while that is what she is best at; it is sometimes hard to keep a rational head when being faced with the possibility that "if I make a mistake I could make my best friend drink poison or worse if I can't figure out the right bottle, we'll be stuck in here forever." It's like taking an exam. Yes you know the material and under a casual setting could get every answer, but when the pressure of an exam is added, the tenseness of the room and atmosphere, you freeze up and suddenly can't string together many good thoughts. That was the pressure Hermione was facing and the same girl people accuse of being emotion-less; the fact is her cool and rational head is what saved Harry, AGAIN.

COS
Hermione figured out pretty much everything, with the exception of who opened the chamber and why. Had it not been for Hermione, Harry would have NO clue (1) what was terrorizing the school and (2) how to stop it and (3) he certainly would not be able to to find Ginny; who would have effectively died. Thus, the witch who persons are now actually trying to say is more powerful than Hermione; had her life saved by Hermione as much as Harry.

POA
Hermoine helped Harry get to Ron, she helped them hex Snape and she helped him save Sirius and Buckbeak. One can say she didn't do much but the truth is she stopped Harry MANY times from doing something irrational that would have gotten himself killed and would have caused Sirius and Buckbeak to NOT be saved. Plus, while she didn't do a powerful Patronus Charm like him; she NEVER became a liability to him either. He never had to lose sight of what had to be done because she got in trouble and he had to save her.

GOF
She helped him with the first task, by teaching him the Summoning Charm. Not only did he do amazing at the task but the charm also ended up saving his life. So in effect once again, without Hermione even being there PHYSICALLY, she ended playing a part in saving his life, AGAIN. However I can see why one would consider her useless to him in crisis.

OOTP
She saves him from the Cruciatus Curse. It amuses me that persons actually want to say that "oh well we don't know what Ginny and the others would have done if she didn't come up with this plan." The fact is JK wrote her book the way she did. I mean what's the matter; are we upset because we didn't get to see perfect Ginny perform her little bogey-hex (or whatever the hell it's called). Oh darn, I guess we'll just have to wait for the next book. As I was saying, Hermione was the one who saved Harry from that curse; she thought to mark the doors (I mean really, sometimes these kids are all really slow, I mean the doors kept circling and no one else thought of this), she pulled Harry and what do you know, Ginny too; from the veil. She was the one who used the silencing spell on the DE. The fact is persons want to make an issue of I don't know what; that Hermione isn't more physical in crisis? However my feeling is if she was as powerful physically as she is academically; WHY would we need Harry? Harry HAS to be the one to save the day, he is the one who has to fight those final big battles, he NEEDS to be more powerful than her because at the end of the day; HE is the one who has to defeat Voldemort. It's as Ron said, "he's the one who has to go on; not Ron and not Hermione." However everyone needs help on their journey and that's what Hermione has provided for Harry in more ways than one; and it is really insulting to the friendship and character that JK has created that persons try to minimize and disregard her strengths and accomplishments.

Hermione Showing More Concern and Warmth for Harry

PS/SS
I don't need to explain these since I have argued them to death; so I'll just list them. Her reaction to Harry's win against the Slytherins. Her reaction to him when he is about to face Voldemort and her reaction to him at the infirmary. Her reaction to Harry's suggesting that DD may have known all that was going on and felt like it was Harry's right to face Voldemort and finally her reaction to first seeing the Dursleys.

COS
Her letter to Ron. Again I've argued this so much that I'm tired of seeing myself type the arguments. I'll say this though; compare that letter to the one she wrote Harry in POA with his present. In COS, Hermione's letter to Ron is extremely pre-occupied with Harry. She makes statements because of how it would affect Harry. For example, them not doing anything illegal. Now compare this to when she mentions Ron in the letter to Harry in POA. It was always in the manner of how the thing affected Harry or herself. For example; "Ron told me about his phonecall to your Uncle Vernon. I do hope you're alright." In other words she's bringing it up out of concern for what might have happened to him because of the phone-call. "Did you see that picture of Ron and his family? I'm so jealous, I bet he's learning loads." In other words she is purely interested in how fascinating the whole trip could be to her, learning about new and ancient witches and wizards.

There's also her reaction to him when she first sees him in Diagon Alley; Hermione says everything in one breath and there's her reaction to him after she wakes up from being petrified. No need for me to go into this again. If one has never read my opinion on it; just look at my other posts.

POA
The lengths she went to in getting him the perfect gift. One can argue that since Harry is the narrator we wouldn't know if she ever gave Ron such a perfect gift; but the truth is there's been many times when JK has shown what Hermione has given both Ron and Harry for Christmas. She could have shown Hermione giving Ron a present to do with chess for Christmas; so we would have seen her paying just as much attention to Ron's gifts as Harry's.

Her being on the pitch just as he mentioned seconds before about his having problems seeing in the rain because of his glasses. Now that's what I call; paying attention to someone's needs.

Her pleading with him about not doing anything crazy or risky to the point of getting teary-eyed. She DID NOT nag, nor did she lecture.

Her reaction to his falling off his broom; her risking her friendship with him by reporting the Firebolt, her reaction to his sneaking into Hogsmeade. That moment was always rather interesting to me. First we have Hermione squealing when she sees him, then naturally she worries (like she does alot) and then she gets flustered once he grins at her, asking her if she'd report. This was strange because if I didn't know better I would think Harry was flirting with Hermione but as is this is Harry, so that's pretty unlikely. However, it certainly was effective in getting him what he wanted.

Her grabbing his arm when the Fat Lady was cut up, as well as leaning into him when they hear Hagrid's screams and assume that Buckbeak had been executed. Her holding on to him so tightly that he was losing feeling in his arm; during their entire experience looking for Ron and then going back in time.

GOF
Her reaction to his reaction to the veelas. Her reaching to him to share the joke about the referee. That's interesting when you consider that Hermione was between Harry and Ron. Why reach out to Harry and not Ron?

Her reaction when the Dark Mark shows up. Hermione's so scared that she's white and she's trying desperately to get Harry to move. When he talks about his dream, she looks so horrified that poor Harry couldn't even get himself to say that Voldemort was plotting to kill him.

Her anticipating his need to escape the school and students and thus, bringing him breakfast and suggesting a walk. Her sacrificing hours helping him with research and practicing for the first task. Her reaction to him after the first two tasks as well as when she is showing him Dobby.

Her watching him at the Yule Ball when talking to Krum, her talking about him alot to Krum. The cute moment they share when he informs her he was supposed to get past the dragon alone.

OOTP
Do I really need to say these again? All I'll say is Prefect Scene, Christmas Scene and Grawp Scene. Now persons will stubbornly continue to defend to the deaths their ship and in so doing disregard anything that remotely suggests another pairing; however what we must always remember is that JK wrote all those scenes the way she did for a reason. There were MANY different words she could have used, but she wrote the scenes as she did for a reason.

Hermione's Making Harry Feel Better
She reminds him why Voldmort can't hurt him with DD around in PS/SS. She tries to tell him why he can't be the Heir of Slytherin. She gets him the perfect gift which kept him almost sane for most of Aunt Marge's visit. She believes him that he didn't put his name in the Goblet and stands by him when no one else would. She comes up with the idea of the DA. She comes up with the idea of the article, she convinced him to leave his room, she's the only one of his friends who's been brave enough to say Voldemort's name. Something that both surprised and pleased him. She was there once she found out about his Detentions; to make him a potion for his hand.

On Harry's part, while many persons want to say how Hermione annoys him and he basically tolerates her; he continues to reach out to BOTH her and Ron when he needs someone, he continues to be impressed by her intelligence (the coin idea), he continues to have her as his friend. He cares enough to not tell her who is really taking the elf clothes. He had a hard time telling her no about making the elf clothes when he looked at the expression on her face. He continues to respect and care for her. When Harry discovers Ginny in the chamber, he is scared and pleads for her to not be dead but his reaction and the scene is NO WAY as intense as when he thinks Hermione is dead. Harry first screams out Hermione's name pretty loudly, falls to his knees and is so emotional that he has trouble concentrating on fighting the DE, then when Neville tells him there's a pulse, he gets light-headed from relief. Wow. All that for a girl who's pretty much like a business partner he tolerates. My god what would the boy do if he actually liked this girl.

Ginny
So Ginny has some character development in OOTP and she has gone from being invisible to being more understanding of Harry than Hermione, better at making him feel better, better in a crisis and stronger than Hermione? Uh-huh. Persons actually want to make an issue of Harry having to help Hermione when they were duelling in COS. Might I remind persons that Millicent was huge and she was no longer duelling with Hermione when Harry came to help; so much as she was beating up Hermione. They didn't even have wands anymore. The pyscho girl had the person in a head-lock, effectively chocking her. Hell even Harry had trouble getting the girl off. Also while Hermione panicked in the bathroom when Harry and Ron came to save her; it is important to point out that the two idiots were the ones to lock the troll in with the girl in the FIRST place. As Harry said; "she wouldn't have even needed saving if they hadn't locked the thing in with her." Now let's talk about dear, sweet Ginny for a second, shall we? She managed to be manipulated by a diary (even after her father always telling them not to trust anything that can think for itself if you don't know where it's power is coming from), almost got herself, half the kids in the school and Harry; killed. When he came to save her she was completely useless until everything was over, then got up crying about how she was going to be expelled.

After that she effectively disappers for two books, except to make requisite appearances of "girl who's taken with Harry and blushes when she first sees him." Then comes OOTP, where apparently she's dating, over Harry, can play Quidditch, makes a few funny comments, gives him exactly what he wants without considering any risks and by not doing ANYTHING except telling her big brothers. However because of this she has now become stronger and more helpful to Harry than Hermione. Hermione; who at the same age Ginny was when she foolishly got manipulated by a diary; was saving herself and her friends from tests placed by brilliant and older wizards. The girl who was saving her friend from his death by attacking a teacher. This girl; Ginny has become better than? When and which series was this in because it certainly wasn't in the series I've been reading.

Let me say that I don't hate Ginny. I simply find the character completely uninteresting even with her little personality change in OOTP. If JK does put her with Harry, fine. It would seem to me pitiful that this is all our hero got but hey, I don't control those things. What I have a problem with is persons need to knock Hermione's character down constantly to support this ship and Ginny. What does it say about H/G, that the best way to support and defend them is to minimize, disregard and assasinate Hermione's character? I've seen MANY H/Hr shippers (myself included) write tons supporting their ship with no mention of Ginny's character. However in the past months H/G shippers don't miss a chance to knock Hermione down. She's cold, emotionless, she doesn't get him, she was defending Ron by simply trying to get her friends to talk again,she doesn't show much concern for Harry, she's useless in a crisis, she's not as powerful as Ginny, etc, etc. It amazes me. Harry apparently has so many subconsious feelings for Ginny right? According to someone he's been subconciously "checking her out", there are SO many signs to why they'll end up together, yet the bulk of the arguments here for this ship come from discrediting Hermione's character. I guess that makes that sense. If Hermione is rendered completely imperfect, it certainly makes it believable that after all those years Harry would think Ginny is the one that's perfect for him. There's ONE major problem with this plan. That being that most of the criticism is biased, unfounded in cannon and unfair. Again it is perfectly fine to support any ship you want. Again it's personal taste. Hey if gay couples is your thing; by all means make a case for Harry and Ron. However the harsh criticisms of the characters is not necessary. Hermione may not be perfect as are none of the kids but to disregard her importance and strength over some girl who has had ONE book of not being semi-annoying is unfair and honestly ridiculos.

AvadaKedavra

August 3rd, 2003, 1:46 pm

Thanks for all the praise :clap: I am not worthy...

Flying Phoenix

Now to deal with your reply.

Yeah, I agree but only if we change the name not Ron its Harry.

Sorry. Changing names in my theory does not work. In fact, falling in love with Harry is logical- the hero, the lifesaver, the gentelman. What really gets Hermione is that she is starting to fall for Ron instead, and doesn't understand it- part of her still denies it, and if you read my theory again, this comes into play in several instances.

Not really because she blush everytime it comes to her own private conversations with Krum. Not because of her feelings.

Where did I say it was because of her feelings? I used this as "back-up" evidence for my theory, to establish that Hermione is insecure about this sort of thing, which would fit in my overall theory. I did not say- Hermione blushes when Ron askes about Krum, therefore she has feelings. That is too primitive. Instead, I say, Hermione blushes because she feels uncomfortable about this sort of thing and doesn't like it- hence insecurity.

The rest of your post seems mainly based upon an assumption that all the evidence that I throw up is a R/Hr positive.

Rather, I am pointing out this and that, explaining how this and that led to there and concluding, which is in the end, a R/Hr positive. You are just disputing the "this"es and "that"es, for example disputing the pet thing in POA. Does it really matter? The whole point of it was to prove there was strong levels of caring between Hermione and Ron. Are you disputing that?

Earendil

Are you so sure about that darned Gollum? Take another look, to see if he's still there. :lol:

*runs off to the local supermarket to get a can of cat-food. "Here, Gollum, you've been a good boy". :rotfl:

I appreciate fully your well thought out post. Take a :clap: for that. However, some points you raise are explained away in my "neat" theory. But seeing as it was so big, and things could be easily missed, I am more than happy to explain again. :D

Harry has certain characteristics that also appear in Hermione's only love interest to date, Viktor Krum, who is almost the polar opposite of Ron

Yes, but the critical thing is, IS there anyevidence showing that Hermione is interested in Krum more than as a friend? If there is, then this parallel is valid.

When Harry disagreed with Ron once over the course of five books, Hermione was automatically on Harry's side.

Was she? I understand that Hermione was on Harry's side in terms that she believed what Harry was saying, but in a direct conflict between Harry and Ron, she wasn't really on Harry's side and criticising Ron. Rather, she was fixing things, understanding Ron so well (which means observation took place :p) and explaining Ron's position to Harry.

A) insanely jealous of Viktor Krum, B) giving her perfume, of all the awful things, for the very first time, and C) even acting weird about her and Harry

I believe that I covered this in my essay. Jealous of Viktor Krum- Hermione, with her internal struggles, suspects Ron's feelings. But her insecurity and also part of her denial leads her to seek and possibly to believe the possible opposite.

I will cross reference my answers to your letters.

A) But the thing is, Ron at the Yule Brawl (whilst he was still in the denial phase) made up a mental excuse for his jealousy- he told Hermione that he was concerned for Harry- and told her that she was "fraternising the enemy". Now, as unlikely as this may seem, remember Hermione's position. With her insecurity and lingering denial, she will think- "what if Ron is really only a bit overprotective?" what if this, what if that? There is still a risk involved in this, and Hermione doesn't want to be 95%. 100% will only do. What if there was the smallest, tiniest chance that her suspicions were wrong? What would that mean? Drastic consequences.

B) I explained this in my perfume section in the essay.

C) Hermione is probably thinking- well, he is my friend after all. I suppose Harry would do the same in return "how do you know?" albeit in a less sharp tone. The trio have been friends so long, and any interaction is like a taboo- a gross violation.

I see your point absolutely about staganation.

But you need to remember two things.

1) This book is Harry suffering. Harry is having a difficult time, coping with Cedric's death, and there is SO much going on. Ron and Hermione have put a temporary slowdown on their feelings development- despite occassional outbursts. I think JKR put in more than enough to keep the cauldron boiling over. :p

2) Ron and Hermione are at different levels of feeling. Ron is more aware of his feelings, but he is very afraid. He doesn't want a repeat of the Yule Brawl. He is very tentative in his hints, which get blurred by the scope of their friendship anyway. Hermione still has lingering denial, from her logical mindset. She also has insecurity, and is even more tenative than Ron. Her possible clues are "blurred" by the scope of their friendship too, the kiss- Harry's got one too. The letter writing in front of Ron- she could be unconcerned about this sort of thing.

In fact, on re-reading I can see the main strong point of this theory- as excellently said by Elric.

I also can't refute the overall theory as, unfortunately, we haven't seen the 5th stage yet, and it's impossible to prove or refute a hypothesis until the 'experiment' has completed.

The groundwork has been laid. If Book Six evidence continues to follow this pattern (and all that there is needed is continued clues and developement), the theory continues.

This may sound a bit 'forensic', but Ron & Hermione were both in the hospital ward for three days, both had the 'opportunity' and if they have the strong feelings for each other that is suggested they had the 'motive', to at least say something about how important each is to the other.

As of the end of OOTP we don't seem to have seen evidence of this having happened.

Hey- right now isn't the best time to think about feelings! Harry's messed up, Sirius has just died and Ron/Hermione themselves will probably have done some grieving. Hermione, in particulare will probably be having slight twinges about her rash comments about Sirius's character. I think I am 100% right in saying this, and this really is not the time.

Signing out,

Avada

Ellefire

August 3rd, 2003, 2:20 pm

Ileyki that was an amazing post!
I can not agree with you more. The H/G ship is mainly based on Hermione-bashing. I can understand why you are so upset. I am too!
The evidence you gave was certainly convincing. Well done! :clap::clap::clap:

~Ellefire

Elric

August 3rd, 2003, 2:30 pm

Avada Kedavra, just a quick question regarding a point in your post.

Quote: 1) This book is Harry suffering. Harry is having a difficult time, coping with Cedric's death, and there is SO much going on. Ron and Hermione have put a temporary slowdown on their feelings development- despite occassional outbursts. I think JKR put in more than enough to keep the cauldron boiling over.

Do you mean that both Ron and Hermione independently came to this conclusion? Which would be a major plaudit to Ron as everyone sees him as unobservant and tactless.

Or are you implying a tacit agreement between the two to keep things quiet for Harry's benefit? This would imply that both have recognised and acknowledged their feelings for each other.

I'm also a bit confused why R/Hr getting together would necessarily upset Harry. Surely if his two best friends got together, he'd be happy for them?

The only way it would be, seriously, upsetting would be if Harry had romantic feelings for Hermione, and that R/Hr being an item means that, in some way, Harry has lost out to Ron.

Are you suggesting that both Harry and Ron love Hermione, and that they're in competiotion for her affection?

MoF

August 3rd, 2003, 2:32 pm

Hooray for Ilyeki! The myth of "useless-Hermione-in-situations-of-crisis" passed away earlier today 1:24 PM. Amen :clap: :clap: :clap:

Fairydust

August 3rd, 2003, 2:45 pm

Fabulous posts all you R/H shippers. :wow: I am proud to be an R/H and H/G shipper. :clap: :p

AvadaKedavra

August 3rd, 2003, 2:46 pm

Or are you implying a tacit agreement between the two to keep things quiet for Harry's benefit? This would imply that both have recognised and acknowledged their feelings for each other.

Not at all. You should have gathered from my theory, that this R/Hr are quite a long way from this.

I'm also a bit confused why R/Hr getting together would necessarily upset Harry. Surely if his two best friends got together, he'd be happy for them?

Did I say it would? It is something quite big, Harry's two best friends getting together. It needs to be written properly. Harry is really thinking/focusing on lots of things in the book, and this would be "out of place" in an already "overstuffed" book.

The only way it would be, seriously, upsetting would be if Harry had romantic feelings for Hermione, and that R/Hr being an item means that, in some way, Harry has lost out to Ron.

No. I do not mean this AT ALL.

Are you suggesting that both Harry and Ron love Hermione, and that they're in competiotion for her affection?

Sorry if you misunderstood me, but I firmly am of the school of thought that H/Hr are platonic, and will remain so.

Do you mean that both Ron and Hermione independently came to this conclusion? Which would be a major plaudit to Ron as everyone sees him as unobservant and tactless.

Yes! :clap: Hit it right on the head. If you look at my theory, it says that Ron is maturing fast. This is one such example. He is making small timid steps but not huge. He is thinking about his friend's struggle and supporting him first. So is Hermione.

Hope that cleared things up.

Signing out,

Avada

Daveydee

August 3rd, 2003, 2:51 pm

Are you suggesting that both Harry and Ron love Hermione, and that they're in competiotion for her affection?
AK's reply:

Sorry if you misunderstood me, but I firmly am of the school of thought that H/Hr are platonic, and will remain so.

Furthermore it is inconceivable (and there is some text evidence to support this) that Harry doesn't realise that Ron has feelings for Hermione.

Frostbite_Panda

August 3rd, 2003, 2:53 pm

:clap: :clap: Ileyki! That post was brillant! Great analysis and input on your part.

I hate anyone who underminds Hermione's chracter. As you can see, by my sig, I blatantly support that. That doesn't mean to say that I undermind any of the other chracters, and as you said, Ginny is a likable enough character, but she's completly...uninteresting.

Thank you so much for getting that out! I'm only sorry that I didn't have the guts to point it out myself!

Great posts to all of the other H/Hr shippers out there! I'm proud to support this ship!

:clap: :clap: :clap:

~panda

_BT_

August 3rd, 2003, 2:54 pm

Ginny
So Ginny has some character development in OOTP and she has gone from being invisible to being more understanding of Harry than Hermione, better at making him feel better, better in a crisis and stronger than Hermione? Uh-huh.

exactly. h/hr have shared a strong relationship since book 1 and two are constantly together in every book 1. ginny has talked to harry maybe once or twice before book 5 and in book 5 she talked to him just a couple times. the two just don't really share a relationship and nothing on the level that harry has with hermione. the long examples you give that span all the books are good on proving this. sorry folks but so far ginny and harry really haven't shown anything between each other.

Persons actually want to make an issue of Harry having to help Hermione when they were duelling in COS. Might I remind persons that Millicent was huge and she was no longer duelling with Hermione when Harry came to help; so much as she was beating up Hermione. They didn't even have wands anymore. The pyscho girl had the person in a head-lock, effectively chocking her. Hell even Harry had trouble getting the girl off. Also while Hermione panicked in the bathroom when Harry and Ron came to save her; it is important to point out that the two idiots were the ones to lock the troll in with the girl in the FIRST place. As Harry said; "she wouldn't have even needed saving if they hadn't locked the thing in with her."

i've never seen harry have concern like that for ginny

Now let's talk about dear, sweet Ginny for a second, shall we? She managed to be manipulated by a diary (even after her father always telling them not to trust anything that can think for itself if you don't know where it's power is coming from), almost got herself, half the kids in the school and Harry; killed. When he came to save her she was completely useless until everything was over, then got up crying about how she was going to be expelled.

although we are seeing a new ginny as per book 5, i have to admit that after that part in CoS i kinda saw ginny as weak

After that she effectively disappers for two books, except to make requisite appearances of "girl who's taken with Harry and blushes when she first sees him." Then comes OOTP, where apparently she's dating, over Harry, can play Quidditch, makes a few funny comments, gives him exactly what he wants without considering any risks and by not doing ANYTHING except telling her big brothers. However because of this she has now become stronger and more helpful to Harry than Hermione.

i agree. i _do_ like the new character development w/ ginny, but regardless, h/g just don't share anything, as of yet. and i don't think the trivial encounters in book 5 qualify as moments.

Hermione; who at the same age Ginny was when she foolishly got manipulated by a diary; was saving herself and her friends from tests placed by brilliant and older wizards. The girl who was saving her friend from his death by attacking a teacher. This girl; Ginny has become better than? When and which series was this in because it certainly wasn't in the series I've been reading.

Let me say that I don't hate Ginny. I simply find the character completely uninteresting even with her little personality change in OOTP. If JK does put her with Harry, fine. It would seem to me pitiful that this is all our hero got but hey, I don't control those things.

agree again. i don't really hate ginny (heck i don't really hate any hp character) but i don't find myself jumping in interest over her. not to mention putting harry with ginny would most likely leave ron with hermione-- which would create the amazingly lame 'one big happy family.' like i said before, i doubt the girl harry's going to end up with in the end is a side character with little 'screen time' that harry has so far shown no feelings for.

overall Ileyki, nice post/analyzation. :tu:

Fairydust

August 3rd, 2003, 2:59 pm

Ginny is a likable enough character, but she's completly...uninteresting.

I don't get how you can find Ginny uninteresting at all. She's a strong willed powerful witch and is o nly going to get better as the books progress. We haven't seen a lot of her and that makes her even more interesting. But that's just my opinion. You're entitled to your own. :agree:

noddwyd

August 3rd, 2003, 3:00 pm

Furthermore it is inconceivable (and there is some text evidence to support this) that Harry doesn't realise that Ron has feelings for Hermione.

If that's the case then it is even more 'inconceivable' that Hermione is unaware of Ron's feelings torwards her. And you have just discredited AK's entire theory.

Daveydee

August 3rd, 2003, 3:01 pm

If that's the case then it is even more 'inconceivable' that Hermione is unaware of Ron's feelings torwards her. And you have just discredited AK's entire theory.
Sorry - please explain how you arrive at that bizzare conclusion.

Buckbeak

August 3rd, 2003, 3:01 pm

Hey everyone, well it seems that another load of pages have gone by in my few hours of absence, it kind of makes me wonder what we'll all do when the Harry Potter series is over, go back to our jobs i suppose :sigh:.
I guess though that i should really blame AK for his post that took up almost a whole page. Very good by the way i have to say that over the last few pages your the only R/Hr shipper who has ever made any sense. Now thats a complement coming from someone who absolutely despises that ship, so consider yourself lucky :rolleyes: . Of course a lot of it, just seemed like lucky guess work to me, but you had a point, which was the most important thing.

Anyway on to Gilyann, first off can i just ask, were you that person who wrote that really long essay on who excactly Ginny was, i saw it ages ago on some Harry/Ginny site, can't remember the name, but anyway if it was you, it was very good you made me realize alot of things about Ginny that i never knew, also it made me like the H/G ship even more. If it wasn't you though, then theres another person with a similer name who also loves Ginny going around the net, you should meet up ;) .
Now Gilyann i have read your posts on here, and i know you really don't like H/Hr but to make Harry out to be some sort of selfless moron just to prove your point is kind of tactless. Its really not what Harry is about, he's the stupid, yes but at the same time brave and caring hero, who thinks to much about everyone else (if he didn't then there wouldn't really be much of a story line, considering we see everything for his POV), i have seen no proof that Harry cares more for Ginny than Hermione. Ginny is not part of the trio so she is not Harry's best friend like Ron and Hermione are, so theres no reason for him to care for her more, in fact, and it pains me to say this, but at the moment Harry sees Ginny no more than a little girl. for instances (i don't have my book so this isn't exact) in OoTP when they're about to board the thestrals Ginny says that she's coming and Harry is about to respond, your too young, and she has to remind him that she's two years older than he was when he rescued her from the chamber. Doesn't he then look to Ron for backup? i can't remember that exactly, i'll have to check that up. but anyway Harry's not interested in Ginny because of this reason. im sorry to break it to you, but thats a fact, whether things will change, i don't know, but for now there is nothing.

If im honest i really couldn't care less who Ron or Hermione or Ginny goes with, the only one who id like to see in a relationship is Harry, and the only reason for that is because he's the main character. if Ron and Hermione got together, then what? Harry won't be hanging around with them as much, he'll be an intruder. he might be able to stay best friends with Ron, but considering how jealous Ron gets, he won't be able to continue being as good a friends with Hermione.
And if Harry and Hermione arn't as good as friends as they are at the moment, then i don't know where Harry would be.
JK has said that 'Harry needs Hermione' so if R/Hr happen, the trio won't be as strong as it was and possibly even come to an end. If H/Hr happen, the trio won't be as strong as it was and possibly come to an end, but at least Harry would still have Hermione with him, because remember he needs her, for a whole lot more things than to stay alive.
Now once again im only posting my thoughts on the subject, whether i make sense or not, is not important, only the fact that i have a point is and it is in there somewhere believe me.
Need directions, tell me and i'll gladly show you the way. :)
That is all.

Daveydee

August 3rd, 2003, 3:04 pm

I guess though that i should really blame AK for his post that took up almost a whole page. Very good by the way i have to say that over the last few pages your the only R/Hr shipper who has ever made any sense. Now thats a complement ...
I'll take it as an insult, thanks all the same.

sone

August 3rd, 2003, 3:05 pm

Brilliant and thorough post as always lleyki, I agree completely. In any case, I always kinda find it silly that people so much want Harry to wake up to Ginny when someone else already has....Neville. It was Neville who asked Ginny to the dance, it was Neville who looked out for Ginny's welfare during Harry's break in to Umbridge's office.

Personally, I have little doubt that Neville has given far more recognition to Ginny's curvy, cat-like features than Harry ever will.

Buckbeak

August 3rd, 2003, 3:09 pm

I'll take it as an insult, thanks all the same.

:no: No please, please, please don't take it as an insult, because it wasn't one.

evaluna

August 3rd, 2003, 3:20 pm

FP, Sone, Earendil, brilliant rebuttals to AK’s 5-step theory ;) Stagnation says it all.
Ilyeki:, beautiful exposition across the series on how Hermione comes through for Harry in times of crisis, and how much they care for one another

It has been pure reading pleasure catching up today :)

Original post by Flying Phoenix

Quote: [Avada Kedavra]
And at the same time she is examining the nature of her own feelings for Ron, who always argues with her. Part of her is still in denial and this frustration is outleted via the arguments, lashing out at Ron, as if it's his fault that she's falling in love with him. The frustration that "drives" the arguments is also coming from Hermione's helpless situation. She sees herself in a no-win situation, and finds it difficult to kick-start the relationship into romantic realms, due to her insecurity and fears.

This can I interpret in another way for example if Hermione know Ron likes her and if Hermione likes Harry than is it very possible that she has a problem and for some reason is Ron guilty on her problem. That he is visible after her but she don't want it because she want someone else.- That explain why she react by side that rude against Ron because he is part of her problem.
There comes her comment into play "You are worst than Ron!" Its one part of clueless and the other part about problems. See Harry isn't that much her problem not yet. Its Ron who seems to like her more as a friend and the possible that Hermione don't like him back. She can't tell him this because first its kinda strange if your best friend comes to you and tell you you like her. What a big fight could start there?! If I look back than I see PoA where she nearly lost Ron as friend and GoF where Ron react rather rude against Hermione. So if she tells him he likes her. He might tell her things which aren't the best things in the world. So she wait till he get ride of it or till he comes to her and say it. In this case is Ron indeed worst as Harry. Because Hermione has suspicious feelings for Harry which she try to hid and try to understand but his comment that he indeed don't think she is ugly don't help her thats why he is at first worst as Ron but as she spotted Ron she know this problem or rather Ron's feelings for her are much more worst as Harrys cluelessness about her feelings.

FP: FP, this was brilliant. Hugs and clappies all round!
Finally it clicked on every level as I read your post. I am convinced you have hit one the correct interpretation. OK, in reponse last night to AK’s mention of this quote and this situation, I noted that Hermione’s offhand comparison of Harry to Ron was certainly not favourable to Ron on the surface , whatever her exact intent may have been. But what exactly was Hermione’s intent, especially as it seemed that this comment slipped out as an afterthought. I suggested that—given the general context of Hermione discussing his relationships with Harry [yet again, as she initiates and probes on this topic several times in OoP…] – there was indication IMO that her interest lay with Harry. Thus Hermione’s offhand comment regarding Harry not being as bad as Ron, in this context, seemed to indicate that she was mentally sizing Harry up favourably against what she knew she didn’t like [Ron], and that she was favourably regarding Harry as potential relationship material. Additionally, given the larger context of the discussion, it looked as if Hermione might also have been trying to help Harry better understand her views on relationships, by way of discussing her point of view on his goings on. But these were purely speculative logical suppositions based on the text.

You have done the same but have also provided the emotional foundation for this logical interpretation of Hermione’s behaviour: Assume now that Hermione’s final comments arise purely from her own perspective and regarding her own feelings: Hermione thinks Harry is clueless because he apparently hasn’t yet noticed that Hermione does care for him beyond friendship, whilst she knows that Ron is clueless because he has apparently continued on with his crush and still hasn’t yet noticed that Hermione does not care for him beyond friendship.

Original post by noddwyd
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote: [Avada Kedavra]
Furthermore it is inconceivable (and there is some text evidence to support this) that Harry doesn't realise that Ron has feelings for Hermione.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If that's the case then it is even more 'inconceivable' that Hermione is unaware of Ron's feelings torwards her. And you have just discredited AK's entire theory.

Original post by DaveyDee
Sorry - please explain how you arrive at that bizzare conclusion.

DD: In AK's "5-Step Theory" post, there is a direct reference that Hermione is unaware as to the existence of Ron's feelings for her "in that way", re: AK's discussion of the GoF era. Let's not split hairs, because it did seem to be very much part and parcel of AK's theory.

Original post by Avada Kedavra
One of the other parts is examining the illogical, and attempting to make sense of it- probing and exploring. Hermione is teetering. She still has her suspicions of Ron having feelings for her. Hermione has a problem here. She is very insecure about this sort of thing, as is proved by her blushing every time this subject is encroached.

noddwyd is making the logical connection that, if Harry must be certain in his awareness [of Ron's feelings for Hermione], then how much more certain in her awareness must Hermione be. The underlying assumption being that she is far more perceptive in these matters than either of them.

Cheers!

Narami

August 3rd, 2003, 3:22 pm

I don't know if any H/Hr shipper has use this frase before as a point, but it was so clear to me when I read it I just wanted to comment with someone and you posted all the reasons I believe referring to it so,is this:
In SS, Chap. 10, p. 179
"There are some things you can't share without ending up liking each other..."
All the reasons you posted support this! If JK thinks unique sharing is necessary to end up liking each other, then all that sharing between H/Hr will lead them together! :p JK herself is clearly saying so!!

Fairydust

August 3rd, 2003, 3:27 pm

"There are some things you can't share without ending up liking each other..."
All the reasons you posted support this! If JK thinks unique sharing is necessary to end up liking each other, then all that sharing between H/Hr will lead them together! :p JK herself is clearly saying so!!

I think that quote had to do with when Ron and Harry saved Hermioen from the troll on Halloween. They didn't like each other, but after they all nearly died and hurt themselves they all decided to put away their differences and becme friends. This isn't an H/H quote. It's from the book and it goes "There are some things you can't share without ending up liking each other and facing a troll is one of them..." something like that. This is not an H/H quote. Sorry. :p

Nia

August 3rd, 2003, 3:33 pm

Hello there,
I'm new to posting here, but not to this thread. I've spent quite a while dockside reading all the posts of the previous thread as well as all the posts in this one and the marvelous H/Hr File. All this time I’ve been gazing up at the good ship Harmony from under the enormous brim of my hat and have decided it is a very good ship indeed and it is high time to board her. (mounts the gangplank, minding the trailing hem of her skirts since she does quite tend to overdress)

I've gotten to know how a lot of you think and I'm very impressed with the depth of thought and perception most of you exhibit. (This includes the fine crews of the opposing ships, who often brilliantly support their own points of view—BTW AvadaKedavra’s recent treatise was the best I have ever read on the R/Hr relationship —even though I am an avid H/Hr shipper I must give credit to whom credit is due!) I've read some of the best canon-based essays on the web right here. I am especially impressed with the courtesy all of you show each other.

So now that I’ve settled aboard, taken my deck chair, and been graciously served my iced drink, my post:

I absolutely adore Harry and Hermione for each other. I've read the books more times than I'd care to mention to people outside the fandom and I've sincerely tried to see the validity in the opposing SHIPs. To be quite honest, there IS quite a bit of widely dispersed and some oh-so-obvious evidence out there to support most of the major ships. I've come to the conclusion that preferences ship-wise boil down to not so much what we have discovered as much as what we, the readers, perceive. People always react emotionally to romance in books and nearly always take sides. Because so may readers have become fans of the Harry Potter books and their characters, the shipping debates have become quite opinionated and virulent. I do, of course, have lots and lots of canon evidence to support my own ship, (hem, hem) but in this, my introduction, I wanted to let posters know where my heart is and how I think and how much I’d love to participate in a spirited debate with all of you very intelligent people.

My preference for Harry and Hermione has to do, of course, with the preponderance of concealed evidence, but also because I feel there is a true "rightness" to it. I DO NOT see it because it satisfies the standard of the hero-epic where the valiant hero "gets the girl," but because in any classic or Hollywood hero epic, Hermione would NOT be the girl the hero wants. Despite the flattering representations in on-line art and in the films (I hear Emma Watson now identifies herself as a 'babe.’ Hermione, the book character is anything but. She has bushy, unruly hair (contrast that if you will with Fleur's shimmery and silken tresses that are so controlled, they fall in a sheet – think shampoo commercial, gag) Up until GoF, we were constantly reminded of Hermione’s overlarge teeth and how she walks a bit hunched because she's always loaded down with books. Add to this picture her proclivity towards bossiness and always being the first to answer (to the point of being known throughout Hogwarts as a know-it-all) and you hardly have the cliché picture of the beautiful girl who is won by the hero. I prefer to think of the H/Hr ship as ‘the unpopular, nothing-special-to-look-at, insecure, nerdy girl’ who, because of something totally unconnected with her looks, wins the love and respect of the slightly insecure, not-so-great-to-look-at, nerdy hero.

A most interesting, but short-lived thread was begun a few days ago by the very observant MoF:

Time for me to mention something which has been nagging me for quite some time:

’How were the Runes?’ said Ron, yawning and stretching.
‘I mis-translated ehwaz,’ said Hermione furiously ‘It means partnership, not defence.’ I mixed it up with eihwaz.’

- OWLs, p. 631, UK Edition

Do you think JKR was trying to tell us something here? Should I just go early to bed? I just thought it was interesting that out of 34.567 words (that was just a random count) Hermione had to confuse partnership with defence.

EricaM picked up on this and went to the web to look these two particular runes up and found the following websites:

Eihwaz, the rune of defense, is associated with the Yew tree (as in Voldie’s wand wood) and looks remarkably like a 'lightning' bolt.
Link to Eihwaz (http://www.netlabs.net/hp/skatty/runes/eiwaz.htm)

Ehwaz, the rune for partnership also has keywords trust and loyalty
Link to Ehwaz (http://www.netlabs.net/hp/skatty/runes/ehwaz.htm)

I would like to add that eihwaz, the rune of defense, has a male polarity and that ehwaz, meaning partnership, has a male/female polarity. This rune is also associated with ‘physical shifts.’ Its upright: “Movement and change for the better. Gradual develoment, harmony, teamwork, steady progress, trust, and loyalty.” (squee--It's a FA thing)
I find it also enormously interesting that the rune is connected with horses. Hermione makes a statement posters on the Harry Potter for Grownups list have called “rude.” Ch. 27 “Centaur and the Sneak” p.599 (American edition)

“I bet you wish you hadn’t given up Divination now, don’t you, Hermione?” asked Parvati smirking. <snip>
“Not really,” said Hermione indifferently, who was reading the Daily Prophet. “I’ve never really liked horses.”

Of course, this conversation serves to carry the exposition of the story forward, but on another level, this seems not quite like Hermione who has such a social consciousness. IMO it is referring to partnerships, which are equal alliances. Hermione knows she is intellectually superior. You have to give her ‘snaps’ the girl is almost always right. This hampers her ability to truly form an ongoing equal partnership with anyone, including Harry, who she seems to respect most. She does not like to display less than stellar achievement. She is not as good as Harry in practical defense and she knows it. She does not quite appreciate that in practical defense one must sometimes ‘throw caution to the winds’ to succeed. (Reference PoA when she chides Harry about doing something foolish and he saves them both with his patronus) She likes to think things through and she and Harry always seem to butt heads in this area. Notice, though, in every book, Harry and Hermione are forced into some kind of partnership, where their combined strengths are required for success. I believe that in the end, we will see their combined strengths forming a deliberate partnership between these two that becomes an incredible force. Notice, also, that we have been allowed to see Hermione’s heart, her genuine care and compassion. In this respect, Harry and Hermione are the same, even though Hermione is sometimes mislead by her intellect (S.P.E.W.)

This brings me to what I also believe is a companion clue: Posted by Flying Phoenix, whose analytical thinking I greatly admire: (For reference to the following, see Ch.31 “O.W.L.S.” Pp. 718-719 (American edition)

Just let try a quick view at the fact that Harry missread Mars with Venus and Hermione defence with partnership. Its kinda ironic if H/Hr gonna happen than is this more as ironic. Because both would rather see the other sign as the obvious one. See what I wanna say is that Harry is now more focused at the war which is ahead or in front of him and Hermione is focused to keep Harry save. This include exactly that what I did always thought that all people around them recorgnise that H/Hr are more as just friends but they are to busy with saving the world if I may say it like that. This would really explain things for once that Harry don't think about it. He just don't think (we are in his head) about why in the devils name his mind sounds like Hermione or that he thinks or has a awule much related thinking with her and about her.or each other, that in fact could be their salvation?

I think this idea is spot on and would like to elaborate. In his Astronomy OWL, Harry correctly labels the constellation Orion. Orion was a mighty hunter slain by Artemis. The constellation depicts him with his lion skin and sword, and club followed by his faithful dog, Sirius. Up until book five “seeker” was one of Harry’s labels. He fully understand this about himself. Up until book five, Harry is seeking the truth about his scar as well as a knowledge of why Voldemort want to kill him. I think that with Dumbledore’s return, Harry will be restored to his former position as Gryffindor Seeker, but it will not be as important to him. Books six and seven, I believe, will take Harry beyond the mundane to discover the nature of his greatest power, love. I honestly believe JKR can pull this off without making it sickeningly sweet. Notice how during the OWL, Harry is first distracted from Venus because of the disturbances at Hagrid’s hut, then finally mislabels Mars as Venus. Harry has been focused since PS/SS on saving the world from Voldemort and the war that he knows is coming. (Note that the centaurs in the Forbidden Forest are also focused on Mars, but always reiterate that ‘they could be wrong.’) Hermione has been focused on defending Harry as PF has so well observed. All of Harry’s successes against Voldemort so far have entailed some kind of partnership between Harry and Hermione. On some occasions, the partnerships have been inadvertent, such as in CoS, where Harry’s unspoken knowledge of the snake voice and Hermione’s logic worked together to allow him to discover the Chamber and save Ginny. If you notice in OoP, they are moving slowly toward an equal partnership with Hermione learning practical Defense against the Dark Arts and Harry vowing to put more effort into his studies as well as his open acknowledgement that Hermione was right.

Although I see all the clues for other ships, I cannot see at this point how any ship (with Harry as the male half) other than H/Hr has any bearing on the exposition of JKR’s story. And I cannot see how she would write in so many H/Hr partnership moments if the fact that they work together is not significant. Perhaps AK has a brilliant theory how love between R/Hr could help bring about the defeat of Voldemort. Or maybe GilyAnn can discuss the story’s development from a H/G point-of view. I’d enjoy hearing everyone’s ideas.

I do have quite a lot more to say, *coughchatterboxcough* but I’ll save it for another post. I don’t want to get tossed overboard on my very first day for excessive verbosity.

Cheers to all of you, and *glomps* to my fellow “pumpkin pieoneer,” Panda. (waves from across the deck)
Nia

noddwyd

August 3rd, 2003, 3:39 pm

maybe not, Fairydust, but the fact that the writer believes those words, coupled with the fact that Harry and Hermione share so many of these types of moments without Ron does say something.

evaluna, thanks for clearing that up for me.

Narami

August 3rd, 2003, 3:44 pm

I think that quote had to do with when Ron and Harry saved Hermioen from the troll on Halloween. They didn't like each other, but after they all nearly died and hurt themselves they all decided to put away their differences and becme friends. This isn't an H/H quote. It's from the book and it goes "There are some things you can't share without ending up liking each other and facing a troll is one of them..." something like that. This is not an H/H quote. Sorry. :p
yes it is, da da da..but it's that frase I was putting importance into, they didn't like Hermione but after sharing something together they do. Jk is saying that there are things, unique things, that you can't share together without ending up liking each other... H/H shared a LOT of unique things together, without Ron, (PoA & OotP very recently) that might therefor point to them endind up together. Like in this last book, Harry found himself thinking very often what Hermione will think of this or that, in fact the voice in his head talking him out of doing something dangerous or not doing his homework and so forth, is Hermione's.
BTW I'm a H/H shipper with no intention what so ever of convincing others to be too, I was just commenting on someone elses post.

Narami

August 3rd, 2003, 3:49 pm

Daveydee

August 3rd, 2003, 3:54 pm

DD: In AK's "5-Step Theory" post, there is a direct reference that Hermione is unaware as to the existence of Ron's feelings for her "in that way", re: AK's discussion of the GoF era. Let's not split hairs, because it did seem to be very much part and parcel of AK's theory.
I'm well aware of AK's theory and I fully support it.

I made the point that Harry was undoubtedly aware of Ron's feelings for Hermione. (I didn't mention Hermione) How do you derive from that, that what I am saying is contrary to what AK says about Hermione's awareness of Ron's feelings.

noddwyd

August 3rd, 2003, 4:15 pm

DD, Harry is depicted as far more inept at understanding others feelings than Hermione, as she was the one trying to explain everything to him regarding Cho. So if she is so much better at it than him, and he does realize how Ron feels, then you can logically deduct that she would be much more aware of it than Harry was. And that would be contradictory to AK's theory that she is uncertain of his feelings.

Daveydee

August 3rd, 2003, 4:25 pm

because Harry is depicted as far more inept at understanding others feelings than Hermione, as she was the one trying to explain everything to him. So if she is so much better at it than him, and he does realize how Ron feels, then you can logically deduct that she would be much more aware of it than Harry was. And this is contradictory to AK's theory that she is uncertain.
That is just so convoluted.

My logical deduction is that Harry and Ron are best mates of 4-5 years standing, and that male bonding being what it is, the likelihood is that Harry would know abou Ron's feelings.

Oh, and of course the aftermath of the Yule Ball in the common room, where Harry quite clearly picks up on what the score is.

sone

August 3rd, 2003, 4:32 pm

Warning: This is my opinion only, nothing more.

I have been going about something incorrectly. Ron's shrewd expression when looking at Harry saying paraphrased "what if he doesn't want to ask her out?" I think Ron noticed that Harry really did not like Cho before Harry or Hermione did. I also think that Ron figured out for himself that there was something going between the two, even if they do not see it yet. More than likely at Grimmwauld Place when he saw Hermione going "spare" and how worried she was about Harry's hearing. She was actually shaking with her hand over her eyes when he came back cleared of all charges.

Ron made a triumphant gesture and rolled around and around on the half rug when he found Harry and Cho kissed. It signals to me that he knew that if Harry was with Cho, then Harry was out of the way as far as Hermione was concerned. Interesting is that Hermione is looking at Harry and then to Ron silent the whole time. She finally give Ron a look of deep disgust and then returns to her letter basically burying herself in it. But Ron almost notices at once that Harry is not as happy as he should be hence the unusual shrewd expression on his face. He knows that Harry may not actually like Cho in that way. As a matter a fact, even Harry's dream tells him why the relationship cannot work (I have an analysis of this somewhere around here).

Ron though finds out much to his dislike that Ginny is going out with Michael Corner. On the train, he is very happy that she has broken up with him and finds out that Harry and Cho are over. I am sure at after hearing this news, Ron gets an idea about Harry and Ginny. Kill two birds with one stone. If he "pushes" Harry in Ginny's direction, Ginny gets someone Ron likes and who he can watch over (he knows and is the best of friends with Harry) and Harry is out of the way being with Ginny which again makes the opening for Ron with Hermione. Viktor does not see Hermione as much as he does so.....full speed ahead ;)

noddwyd

August 3rd, 2003, 4:36 pm

oh yeah, speaking of that scene. "Harry didn't say anything. He liked being back on speaking terms with Ron too much to speak his mind right now -- but he somehow thought that Hermione had gotten the point much better than Ron had. -Gof, p.432
Which is exactly the point I was trying to get across. Hermione knows about Ron's feelings, and has no cause for uncertainty at all.

She finally give Ron a look of deep disgust

ahh, so that explains it. Nice post, sone. I wasn't so sure before, but now I'm pretty positive she knows how Ron feels and is reacting negatively to it.

Earendil

August 3rd, 2003, 4:37 pm

Originally posted by AvadaKedavra
Yes, but the critical thing is, IS there anyevidence showing that Hermione is interested in Krum more than as a friend? If there is, then this parallel is valid.

She accepted his invitation to the Yule Ball, was deeply engaged in conversation with him for part of the evening (so much that she wasn't even concerned about the house-elves for once), defended him on countless occasions against Ron, made it clear to both her best friends that she found him to be "really nice" and "not what you would expect him to be like, coming from Durmstrang, and--the fact that is most significant--she continued to consort with him even after the Yule Ball incident. The text certainly suggests that they were spending time together off-stage, due to the fact that five months after the Yule Ball, Krum confronted Harry with his suspicions about Hermione. Whatever relationship that exists between Krum and Hermione, be it platonic or romantic, it's clear that Hermione is keeping some form of contact with him (even when she knows that Ron doesn't like it, but that's a different topic). I personally think, based on the textual evidence, that Hermione most certainly did have some form of romantic feelings for him. Without the basis of friendship that she has with Harry and Ron, she already expressed some of the feelings that would be present for someone she cares about.

Was she? I understand that Hermione was on Harry's side in terms that she believed what Harry was saying, but in a direct conflict between Harry and Ron, she wasn't really on Harry's side and criticising Ron. Rather, she was fixing things, understanding Ron so well (which means observation took place :p) and explaining Ron's position to Harry.

It would have been easy and would have made a far more powerful statement if JKR had written Hermione as siding with Ron in the conflict, rather than choosing to spend time with Harry in situations where Ron was also clearly present. However, the fact that she understood Ron's feelings indicates that she did indeed discuss the fight with Ron when Harry wasn't around. If we know that this is happening off-stage, how do we know that Hermione wasn't explaining Harry's position to Ron as well?

We don't. Ron realizes after the First Task that he "shouldn't have--" (presumably, he shouldn't have jumped to conclusions and mistrusted Harry's word), but who knows if he came to this decision on his own, or if he had help from Hermione telling him that he needed to understand the way Harry was feeling. I certainly don't. I do, however, believe that Hermione was very much on Harry's side in this fight rather than Ron's, and it is significant that the author chose to place Hermione as Harry's sole ally during a time when everyone had deserted him. This is yet another example of a perfect opportunity to respectively develop R/Hr and H/G in a much more compelling way than has been done in the text as of now, and it was also passed up by Rowling.

A) But the thing is, Ron at the Yule Brawl (whilst he was still in the denial phase) made up a mental excuse for his jealousy- he told Hermione that he was concerned for Harry- and told her that she was "fraternising the enemy". Now, as unlikely as this may seem, remember Hermione's position. With her insecurity and lingering denial, she will think- "what if Ron is really only a bit overprotective?" what if this, what if that? There is still a risk involved in this, and Hermione doesn't want to be 95%. 100% will only do. What if there was the smallest, tiniest chance that her suspicions were wrong? What would that mean? Drastic consequences.

Very true. But when the jealousy continues past GoF and into OotP, Hermione would most certainly suspect that Ron is jealous of more than just the fact that Hermione was "fraternizing with the enemy". I understand the concept of Hermione needing to be 100% certain of Ron's feelings before she encourages him, but, as I mentioned before, she lost the opportunity to provoke him into a jealous reaction by diverting the conversation away from her relationship with Krum twice in OotP. Hermione is no manipulative vixen, but it would have been perfectly decent and understandable if she had mentioned something to Ron with the obvious intention of gauging his reaction. Instead, she immediately put a stop to any conversation about Viktor without even holding much importance to Ron's obvious jealousy.

About the perfume: I understood your analysis on this, and I still think that the word "unusual" holds a very negative connotation to it. Hermione uses the same exact word when describing The Quibbler in Luna's presence, for presumably the same reason of not wanting to get a person's back up.

"People won't mind if it's in a rather--unusual--magazine." {paraphrased}

C) Hermione is probably thinking- well, he is my friend after all. I suppose Harry would do the same in return "how do you know?" albeit in a less sharp tone. The trio have been friends so long, and any interaction is like a taboo- a gross violation.
I understand that in some editions (not mine) it even says that Ron said this in a VERY sharp voice. Yet Hermione had no reaction to this. She only continues to "vaguely" explain that Cho has been crying about everything; not once does she even look curiously at Ron to see why he practically flipped out on them, nor does she think to make it clear that she does NOT know that Harry is not a bad kisser firsthand. I have no doubt that she picked up on the sharp quality of Ron's inquiry, yet she didn't seem to make anything out of it whatsoever. If she misunderstood it to be platonic curiosity, there could at least have been some indication that she found Ron's reply to be a little suspicious.

Ron and Hermione have put a temporary slowdown on their feelings development- despite occassional outbursts. I think JKR put in more than enough to keep the cauldron boiling over.

Here's my problem. AK, alot of your five-stage theory focused on the progression of Ron and Hermione's feelings for each other, and it was entirely consistent in my eyes until OotP. Based on the pattern of progression you outlined, I myself had been thinking prior to OotP that the tension between these two would continue to progress and develop and eventually culminate into the declaration of feelings on Ron's part--but, instead of moving forward, it appears that they moved backward. Now, if Ron and Hermione's relationship is currently in the "resolution" phase, how could they put a slowdown on their feelings? They are not yet resolved; they cannot logically be manipulated to satisfy the circumstances of their best friend's current state of mind. The natural progression of feelings can't exactly be slowed down, especially if they are so unresolved as potential love. My personal opinion is that Ron's feelings did indeed progress, and so did Hermione's: just not in the direction that you suggested.

2) Ron and Hermione are at different levels of feeling. Ron is more aware of his feelings, but he is very afraid. He doesn't want a repeat of the Yule Brawl. He is very tentative in his hints, which get blurred by the scope of their friendship anyway. Hermione still has lingering denial, from her logical mindset. She also has insecurity, and is even more tenative than Ron. Her possible clues are "blurred" by the scope of their friendship too, the kiss- Harry's got one too. The letter writing in front of Ron- she could be unconcerned about this sort of thing.

I understand this, and I still find it highly suspicious that JKR chose to focus on Ron's tentative hints and leave Hermione's feelings carefully concealed. The above quote has alot of basis in speculation (the lingering denial, for one), and I won't refute anyone's right to speculate. However, JKR passed up the opportunity in OotP to reveal more insight into Hermione's potential feelings for Ron, and instead chose to show more alone time between Harry and Hermione. This has to do with the apparent stagnation of the R/Hr romance, which is what I was somewhat surprised to see in OotP. It may very well be that the author is trying to show more of the eventual resolution of the feelings between Ron and Hermione, but OotP did not tally with the linear progression of the R/Hr relationship in the rest of the series. (Oh no...I feel more math coming on...) I almost see it like a graph: R/Hr was increasing in a linear fashion, while H/Hr was also progressing linearly directly below R/Hr. In Ootp, R/Hr leveled off while H/Hr increased exponentially.

In my eyes, both pairings were being developed simultaneously. OotP was where, I think, the tide shifted slightly, due to the strange course of progression JKR chose to show for both R/Hr and H/Hr.

And I almost forgot. AK, you silly goose, Gollum has been peacefully sailing the Harmony all along. Looks like you've got Deagol passing you information instead--them Stoors just don't stay dead, do they? :whistle:

LLEYKI! Very well said. :clap: I'm quoting you here because I need to express my agreement with this statement:

I simply find the character completely uninteresting even with her little personality change in OOTP. If JK does put her with Harry, fine. It would seem to me pitiful that this is all our hero got but hey, I don't control those things. What I have a problem with is persons need to knock Hermione's character down constantly to support this ship and Ginny. What does it say about H/G, that the best way to support and defend them is to minimize, disregard and assasinate Hermione's character? I've seen MANY H/Hr shippers (myself included) write tons supporting their ship with no mention of Ginny's character. However in the past months H/G shippers don't miss a chance to knock Hermione down. She's cold, emotionless, she doesn't get him, she was defending Ron by simply trying to get her friends to talk again,she doesn't show much concern for Harry, she's useless in a crisis, she's not as powerful as Ginny, etc, etc.

I've seen alot of interpretations of Hermione's character, here and elsewhere, that are fairly inconsistent with the text. I myself am frequently accused of character bashing, but this often comes from shippers who almost always use arguments that frankly defame the character of Hermione in order to support their ship. It's perfectly fine to dislike a character for your own personal reasons, but when this dislike is brought into shipping arguments, it becomes less valid. I used to find Ginny to be boring and weak, but this was never my reason for disputing the H/G ship. Alot of us are familiar with Angua's essay regarding why Hermione is not the right girl for Harry, and the assumptions made about Hermione's character and Harry's perception of her are shocking to say the very least.

Also, nice posts to everyone, especially evaluna. And :welcome: aboard the HMS Harmony, Nia and Narami!

Elric

August 3rd, 2003, 4:38 pm

First, thanks to Avada Kedavra for their posts, it's cleared up any confusion on my part.

Could I address the point raised by DaveyDee, and the response to DD's statement by Noddwyd, as far as I can tell it wouldn't undermine AK's theory if Hermione was aware of how Ron felt.

If we accept that Harry is aware of Ron's feelings, it would be strange if Hermione was unaware of them as she seems more observant for these things than either Ron or Harry.

However merely being aware of them doesn't mean she'll act on what she has observed. I'll tray and elaborate and explain this counterintuitive conclusion.

Hermione is much more emotionally involved in her own feelings than she is in anyone elses. So, for example, even if she sees one of her close friends, Harry, have an interest in Cho for ages, and thinks 'Harry should just ask her out', it wouldn't follow that she'd take her own advice in relation to Ron.

She may be sure of her own feelings and fairly sure of Ron's, but there is a much greater potential for emotional pain if she has misread the signs Ron is giving out, than if Harry gets it wrong with Cho. In the H/C scenario the angst is second hand, she'd feel sad because Harry'd been hurt, if she got it wrong in relation to Ron the angst is all her own, and it would just hurt more.

I can see why both sides of the R/Hr couple would tread very carefully before showing their hand.

Fairydust

August 3rd, 2003, 4:41 pm

I know that is your opinion, sone, and i respect it. I just don't buy it. I don't think Ron sees anything between Harry and Hermione. I think he honestly saw Harry as truly liking Cho because he's liked her since third year. And he was rolling on the floor because he found the idea of his best buddy kissing a girl for the first time hilarious. I don't believe that the whole trying to pawn Ginny off on Harry is what Ron's trying to do. He knows that Ginny liked Harry. We know that he doesn't like any of Ginny's current and ex boyfriends. In his eyes no one would be good enough for Ginny except for his best buddy and that's why it might seem that he's trying to hook them up. Ron's not trying to keep Harry away from Hermione. In fact, Ron doesn't even see anything between Harry and Hermione because there isn't anything. If Ginny and Harry happens it will be because they actually found true feelings for each other. not because ron is trying to play match maker. and when Ron and Hermione get together it will be because of the fact that theu've had feelings for each other all along and not because Harry wasn't available for Hermione.

Thank you very much. :)

MoF

August 3rd, 2003, 4:50 pm

I agree with Narami about the "There are some things you can't share without ending up liking each other..." line from PS/SS. In its context, it is not a H/Hr proof, but it may be considered one, when you take all the books into consideration.
As much as Hermione has helped Harry (time for me to applaud Ilyeki's post again) it has only brought them closer. Any girl Harry that might start a realtionship with Harry will have to be able to replace Hermione's importance to Harry. Harry can't remain as dependent on Hermione if any other girl is to come into play. And the best to do that would be...erm...Hermione?

And welcome to the thread Nia. Nice of you finish the job I was too lazy to finish, while bringing in new interesting things to...applause for that! :clap:

Narami

August 3rd, 2003, 4:55 pm

Thanks Earendil for the welcome! :blush:

Buckbeak

August 3rd, 2003, 5:01 pm

Warning: This is my opinion only, nothing more.

I have been going about something incorrectly. Ron's shrewd expression when looking at Harry saying paraphrased "what if he doesn't want to ask her out?" I think Ron noticed that Harry really did not like Cho before Harry or Hermione did. I also think that Ron figured out for himself that there was something going between the two, even if they do not see it yet. More than likely at Grimmwauld Place when he saw Hermione going "spare" and how worried she was about Harry's hearing. She was actually shaking with her hand over her eyes when he came back cleared of all charges.

Ron made a triumphant gesture and rolled around and around on the half rug when he found Harry and Cho kissed. It signals to me that he knew that if Harry was with Cho, then Harry was out of the way as far as Hermione was concerned. Interesting is that Hermione is looking at Harry and then to Ron silent the whole time. She finally give Ron a look of deep disgust and then returns to her letter basically burying herself in it. But Ron almost notices at once that Harry is not as happy as he should be hence the unusual shrewd expression on his face. He knows that Harry may not actually like Cho in that way. As a matter a fact, even Harry's dream tells him why the relationship cannot work (I have an analysis of this somewhere around here).

Although Sone this is a good theory, it doesn't really sound like Ron to be able to pick up on this information before Harry and Hermione did. i mean he's not exactly the brightest of people is he?

Ron though finds out much to his dislike that Ginny is going out with Michael Corner. On the train, he is very happy that she has broken up with him and finds out that Harry and Cho are over. I am sure at after hearing this news, Ron gets an idea about Harry and Ginny. Kill two birds with one stone. If he "pushes" Harry in Ginny's direction, Ginny gets someone Ron likes and who he can watch over (he knows and is the best of friends with Harry) and Harry is out of the way being with Ginny which again makes the opening for Ron with Hermione. Viktor does not see Hermione as much as he does so.....full speed ahead ;)

Also i don't think he'd be able to be as cunning to get Harry out of the way to so he can make his move on Hermione. it just doesn't fit for Ron.

That said however, if there is anything between H/Hr Ron may well be one of the first people to notice.
thanks

noddwyd

August 3rd, 2003, 5:02 pm

I can see why both sides of the R/Hr couple would tread very carefully before showing their hand.
Yes, so can I, but Hermione has passed up several very good chances to test him in Ootp, and reacted negatively or not at all to any of his expressions of jealousy, not to meantion how she reacted to his Christmas present.

Mouthn of Merlin

August 3rd, 2003, 5:03 pm

Great posts everyone!

I just want to say something before I go. I think Harry and Hermione understand each other on another level is because they know the value of hard work. Hermione gets good grades because constantly studies and practice. Harry doesn’t study very much, but when he needs to learn something, he actually studies or find someone to point him in the right direction. Examples of this is when he asked Lupin to help him learn the patronus, and Hermione teaches Harry the summon spell. there are examples in all the books that demonstrate that Harry is actually willing to stop goofing around, and Hermione respects that about Harry. When Ron has to get serious and actually do some work, he usually crumbles under the pressure and tries to quit, or looks to Hermione and Harry for the answers. Even though Harry is not much better Ron, he doesn’t look to Hermione for all the answers and knows when to get serious. That’s why I think H/Hr respect each other more

Arissya_00

August 3rd, 2003, 5:26 pm

Although Sone this is a good theory, it doesn't really sound like Ron to be able to pick up on this information before Harry and Hermione did. i mean he's not exactly the brightest of people is he?

How can you say that? Even though Ron is not so bright in terms of academics, romance and academics are two different things. I think Ron does know a thing or two on romance. Besides, I believe that he might have sensed something between HArry and HErmione before they did, because its just hard not to notice when you're with them the whole time. I believe this is not whether you are smart or not, but if you are all eyes and ears.

Also i don't think he'd be able to be as cunning to get Harry out of the way to so he can make his move on Hermione. it just doesn't fit for Ron.

Really? Then why, is he always arguing with Hermione about Krum, when Krum is sooooo much older and an international Quidditch player? I don't believe cunning is the word, after all, he was placed in Gryffindor. I think it is more of I-don't-want-to-betray-my-friends, but then again, he's fifteen, and hormones are starting to flare, and people change. Besides, Harry and Hermione have not really realized their feelings for each other(if they have), so Ron can take this chance to prove his feelings for Hermione.

Now, I am not saying that Ron is going to snatch Hermione away from HArry, but I just think that Harry and Hermione currently don't have feelings for each other, so, if Ron really likes Hermione, he can prove it for her without causing a row.
And besides, I always thought Hermione was more like a sister to HArry, because she cares deeply for him and loves him in a friendship-like way. And there are tons of R/H hints. I, personally, support Sone's theory.

Fairydust

August 3rd, 2003, 5:31 pm

Now, I am not saying that Ron is going to snatch Hermione away from HArry, but I just think that Harry and Hermione currently don't have feelings for each other, so, if Ron really likes Hermione, he can prove it for her without causing a row.
And besides, I always thought Hermione was more like a sister to HArry, because she cares deeply for him and loves him in a friendship-like way. And there are tons of R/H hints. I, personally, support Sone's theory.

Yes! Harry and Hermione seem close in that sister/brother way. no romance needed. R/H all the way.

sone

August 3rd, 2003, 5:37 pm

Although Sone this is a good theory, it doesn't really sound like Ron to be able to pick up on this information before Harry and Hermione did. i mean he's not exactly the brightest of people is he?

He is not as bright as Harry and Hermione are this is true. Which I think it is interesting as to why was Ron was described as having an unusually shrewd look on his face. Because I think the reason he caught on to it quicker than they did was because Harry and Hermione were not really there. Harry was dazed about kissing Cho and what Hermione said pertaining to everything Cho was feeling, Hermione is burying herself in her letter, obviously not happy at the news of Harry kissing Cho.

Also i don't think he'd be able to be as cunning to get Harry out of the way to so he can make his move on Hermione. it just doesn't fit for Ron.

Neither do I which is why I think his plan is going to backfire terribly. I'm just thinking he saw an opportunity to get rid of his problems with Harry and Ginny.

Fairydust

August 3rd, 2003, 5:38 pm

Sone, are you an H/H shipper or an R/H shipper? just a question.

sone

August 3rd, 2003, 5:49 pm

They would call me a H/Hr "shipper". It is was just what I saw the the first time in the GOF and I have just stuck with it. But I have to admit after reading OOTP, I want H/Hr to happen. R/Hr just do not respect each other enough IMO.

AvadaKedavra

August 3rd, 2003, 5:50 pm

Very good by the way i have to say that over the last few pages your the only R/Hr shipper who has ever made any sense. Now thats a complement coming from someone who absolutely despises that ship, so consider yourself lucky

I'm sorry, but if you say that I make sense, you're also saying that Davydee and Mutant for Hire make sense too- because it was based their posting that I began to formulate my stage theory. In my post, I did give Davydee a lot of credit, and it was his post that inspired me to expand upon it, so he does make sense too. Just to clear that up. I would also like to announce that I have plenty of spare time on my hands and am lazy- hence my ability to submit a huge amount of material. Other people do not have that convenience, and are not able to thoroughly research and review any material.

To anybody

To clear up the confusion on my theory, at the Yule Brawl, the adolescent feelings were at their zenith. Hermione was very angry. At this moment, she has a suspicion of Ron’s feelings-hence that comment. Harry walks in, and perceives what is going on. He may be slow on the ball regarding people’s feelings, but he’s not a total dunderhead.

I make it crystal clear in my theory how, later after the Yule Brawl, Hermione’s logical mindset and her insecurity play a factor in determining her actions. Sometimes we all think things, but then we analyse how we came to that thought, and other factors that there need to be addressed, such as the scope of their friendship, which blurs certain actions.

It’s not a question of being AWARE, or UNAWARE. It’s more complicated than that. Hermione is dealing with a lot of things- lingering denial, the slight beginnings of conscious acceptance, and insecurity all mixed up at once.

Earendil

would have made a far more powerful statement if JKR had written Hermione as siding with Ron in the conflict

If this happened in GOF, a book which many consider a quite strong book R/Hr evidence-wise, the possibility of Ron and Hermione would have been practically guaranteed. Not what JKR wants. Besides, I thought the conflict wasn’t relevant in terms of “romantic connotation” but rather a struggle by the trio to hold together their fundamental friendship, taken at face value.

The natural progression of feelings can't exactly be slowed down, especially if they are so unresolved as potential love

Oh, yes it can. The events in OOTP, especially Harry’s struggles and Voldemort almost put a “total” stopper on the progression. The feelings are not advanced yet enough to be “unstoppable”, as in your vision of it suggests.

The stage is called Resolution, because that is the “theme” of it. I can only reiterate what I said.

However, as indicated by the name of this stage, this stage is about resolution. Hermione and Ron seek resolution to this deadlock- and in their opinion, even if the other doesn’t have feelings for them, this cannot go on. One good thing during this stage is the resolution to their basic connection, which so long ago, in the inauguration stage was established- their arguments.

Notice that throughout my 5 stage theory, I have focused on R/Hr interaction and important scenes, as per se, that are relevant to the romantic/potential connection between them. I refrained from quoting basic friendly interactions because H/Hr could easily do this, and it is pointless.

However, I would like to point out that in the Resolution stage the non-romantic/potential area of their relationship was improved hugely, like I said above in the quote. It was resolved- or nearly resolved. This establishes a better platform on which the development of romantic/potential feelings can be done- i.e. the scope of the friendship is more defined. There will be distinctions between “moves”.

Anyhow, there has been a sort-of resolution- the frustration of both, for both different and same reasons is near peaking. Soon, the frustration will be unsustainable.

I almost see it like a graph: R/Hr was increasing in a linear fashion, while H/Hr was also progressing linearly directly below R/Hr. In Ootp, R/Hr leveled off while H/Hr increased exponentially.

I see it like a graph too. But in my vision, R/Hr is increasing, but at a slower rate. H/Hr is on a different graph- the one that says “platonic friends only”. :p

And I almost forgot. AK, you silly goose, Gollum has been peacefully sailing the Harmony all along. Looks like you've got Deagol passing you information instead--them Stoors just don't stay dead, do they?

Oh, no, no, no. I’ve been teaching Gollum some basic magic and he seems to be taking to it like a duck to water.

“Gollum, excellent Confundus Charm! Take an extra bowl of cat food!” :rotfl:

Elric Nice commenting on the feelings, although I think a little differently on the situation about how Hermione perceives her own feelings and Ron’s. However, I agree completely on the conclusion- why Hermione doesn’t follow her own advice. May I extend the hand of :welcome: to the HMS Heron? This is voluntary, of course.

BTW, that line “there are some things that you can’t end up without liking each other”. Sorry, but IMO that cannot be considered as an H/Hr proof. In England the word “like” usually means in a friends context, and it is blatantly clear that this was written in a “friends” context.

Actually, I think it could be interpreted better as a R/Hr proof because there was more outright dislike between the two previously. But as I said, I care not for this quote. You may have it, if you want.

*throws quote off a very full-looking plate onto the floor. :p

Signing out,

Avada

EDIT: This hand of :welcome: is also given to Arissya 00. The HMS Heron is always open to all, even converts. Earendil? :p

Buckbeak

August 3rd, 2003, 6:07 pm

AK, yes since Daveydee has written that he feels insulted about what i wrote i have since read through some of his posts that i have probably missed (because i admit i don't read all of the posts), of course he makes sense and so do all the other R/Hr shippers but to me being more on the H/Hr side i will try to ignore everything you've written. Ok.

Arissya_00 are you having a go at me about what i wrote? cause it certainly sounds that way. Please don't iv already been shouted at by Mutant for Hire because he thought i was Ron bashing, which im not by the way. :scared:
I was merely saying what i thought of Sone's theory thats all. Which was a very good theory by the way sone, im worried now that i might have sounded offending to you. sorry if i did.

What i was trying to say was that i don't think Ron, has any idea about H/Hr, im sorry, but i can't see how he can. Also i don't think he knows anything about romance seeing as he is only fifteen, and has never had a girlfriend, how can he?
And this is assuming that there is anything between H/Hr to notice.
Also i was trying to point out that Ron wouldn't try to get Harry out of the way just so he could go for Hermione himself. there does that explain anything better? probably not i really am bad about explaining things. but ah well.

Auror77

August 3rd, 2003, 6:09 pm

Well, listening to all these quotes you guys point out are really making me go over Hermione and I've come to this point. Hermione's a very bright girl-duhh! I think, like others, she probably knows that Ron has a crush on her. She knew about Harry liking Cho after all and everything. That's why I think she might have feelings for Harry, or is ATLEAST starting to. Since she probably knows about Ron's feelings, and still hasn't said anything about them or even admit her own feelings(if she has any feelings for Ron that is), I think she does not like Ron. Surely she would tell him by now if she did. This is what I belive and I'm sure R/Hr supporters are gonna disagree but oh well.

Fairydust

August 3rd, 2003, 6:13 pm

If Hermione was a player then I would still not think she'd have an interest in Harry romantically. No proof whatsoever. There's the friendship, the mothering, where's the romance? Show me the romance between H/H. Let me see the light? You know why I can't see it? Because there is none. I have yet to see any real romantic proof of H/H.

sone

August 3rd, 2003, 6:15 pm

Of course I'm not offended Buckbeak. Those were good points you made.

AvadaKedavra

August 3rd, 2003, 6:17 pm

Buckbeak,

This is really not a personal attack, but I'm just curious about two things.

but to me being more on the H/Hr side i will try to ignore everything you've written. Ok.

So if you don't like something, you're going to ignore it. Please don't go and do a "fudge" on me. :sad: The whole point of my theories are to show the opposition ships my perspective, and debate. There's no point in debating with Davydee et al, because he agrees. How can I debate if someone ignores what I say?

Second thing- I thought you were of the HMS Friends4eva- well if that's true, then shouldn't you be non-biased to both ships???

I'm not shouting, mind you. :D

Signing out,

Avada

Turambar

August 3rd, 2003, 6:17 pm

Great posts. :clap:
I liked this point Nia:
"If you notice in OoP, they are moving slowly toward an equal partnership with Hermione learning practical Defense against the Dark Arts and Harry vowing to put more effort into his studies as well as his open acknowledgement that Hermione was right."

Harry and Hermione are not only clearly equals, becoming closer partners and indespensable to each other, in OOTP they also took a huge step forward as leaders of the students when their 'elders and betters' were ineffective or outmanoeuvered.
Who taught the students DADA when the Ministry of Magic was trying to stop it; who got the story of Voldemort's return out to the public; who put an end to Umbridge's rule at Hogwarts? Not Dumbledore, McGonagall and the rest of the well-meaning Order of the Phoenix. Sure, at the end DD made a deal with Fudge to have Umbridge removed but she was with the centaurs at the time, thanks to Hermione.
Harry and Hermione have already started on the journey to becoming influential, significant, powerful figures. That's why the attempt to show that Ginny has become more powerful than Hermione simply does not work. That's why Ron slipped back into a role of mainly emotional support in OOTP. They are not on the same level. They are, at this stage anyway, loyal friends, helpers, lieutenants.
Arthur, for instance, as worthy as he is, is not on the same level as Dumbledore. And it is that type of potential gap that we are starting to see widen.
OOTP also showed Harry and Hermione can be particularly powerful and effective together. Harry and Hermione, combined, do, think and plan things other wizards, not just fellow students, don't do, think or plan.
I think JKR has had Harry and Hermione on a pattern of accelerated development since half way through POA, but I thought before OOTP that she may bring Ron up closer to them. Perdy also had a good theory that Ron's talent for strategy as shown in chess might come through in a battle situation. That could still happen of course, but in OOTP JKR gave the tactical smarts to Hermione.
This for me is the real key pattern of OOTP.

Buckbeak

August 3rd, 2003, 6:26 pm

Buckbeak,

This is really not a personal attack, but I'm just curious about two things.

So if you don't like something, you're going to ignore it. Please don't go and do a "fudge" on me. :sad: The whole point of my theories are to show the opposition ships my perspective, and debate. There's no point in debating with Davydee et al, because he agrees. How can I debate if someone ignores what I say?

Second thing- I thought you were of the HMS Friends4eva- well if that's true, then shouldn't you be non-biased to both ships???

I'm not shouting, mind you. :D

Signing out,

Avada

Ok right i have to say this cause im starting to contridict myself here :sigh:

Ignoreing posts, isn't that what were all doing here? im sorry but reading through all of these i have noticed that no matter how many quotes one ship comes up with, the other one will continue to ignore it.
Like for instance Fairydust is still asking for quotes on any romantic links between Harry and Hermione, well there are pages and pages of quotes that people have submitted to support Harry and Hermione, but still R/Hr's are ignoring these and the same goes visa versa. in my view were just seeing what we want to see. And because there are quotes that support both ships, that is why i decided to board upon the HMS friends4eva. However i have never denied for one moment that i don't prefer H/Hr and i have to say that im not keen on R/Hr. but if in the end if all this love business is going to break up the trio i would rather they just stay friends.

FlyingPhoenix

August 3rd, 2003, 6:31 pm

Great post everybody.

Sorry. Changing names in my theory does not work. In fact, falling in love with Harry is logical- the hero, the lifesaver, the gentelman. What really gets Hermione is that she is starting to fall for Ron instead, and doesn't understand it- part of her still denies it, and if you read my theory again, this comes into play in several instances.

It dos work because like you said:

Hermione seems to be constantly struggling with this. Hermione's growing feelings for Ron are a somewhat of a "clash" against her logicality. Hermione likes everything to be "logical" and follow set rules and likes everything to be generally explainable. But love certainly does not fall under this category.

Growing feelings to a friend who should be only platonic, infact only very platonic isn't logical. You even say love isn't logical. How can it be that if Hermione falls for Harry (in her eyes her best friend and not the hero) be logical? You do implied if she falls for Harry she did understand it what I really doubt. Love, feelings aren't rational even they are for the hero. In my thinking more the anti-hero thats what Harry is really.

The rest of your post seems mainly based upon an assumption that all the evidence that I throw up is a R/Hr positive.

No, not positive but possible. To that I come later and may explain this little detail because it dos fit into my anti-shipp theory.

for example disputing the pet thing in POA. Does it really matter? The whole point of it was to prove there was strong levels of caring between Hermione and Ron. Are you disputing that?

It dos matter because its the second step of your theory. You say there rift between them grows because of hormones. Thats not right IMO. They rift grew through POA and GOF mainly because Hermione starts to see the magical World with her own critical eyes. Before that Hermione is pretty much with Ron in agreement about such trivial things like mudblood in COS. But now she steps away from Ron's view of his own world. They do care for each other no doubt thats why the whole fight was important. Its in that case important that we see Hermione in OotP how she is. It has change her this fight.

I did more as just to comment the PoA scene I did even give my statemant about this quote "You are worst!" from OotP which is again the last step of your theory. The whole last step can I turn around into H/Hr its both possible. I did comment Hermiones jealousy about Fleur which is again part of your theory.

Anti-shipp-theory or (the top-secret-files)

Now to my little theory how JKR could write this serie to end. First I warn you character-dead. Lets say we don't know after OotP which of this two best Friend dos Hermione like. We got pretty many hints and proofs for both ships. JKR dos everything to let both ship open and show that both still very possible. If we say that Harry dos indeed fall for Hermione through book 6 slowly but surely but he isn't sure if she likes him back or if she likes Ron who seems to like Hermione.
In other words again we don't get what Hermione want or who she likes. The story gos on and we still clueless like Harry himself. Book 7 We get again hints over hints in this book which tell us that indeed still both H/Hr and R/Hr are possible. The end fight shows up and Harry kills Voldemort but the price is Hermione. She dies and with her dies our little answer who she did like or love.
This one is a clue by JKR its pretty cruel but very much usefull because In all years which come after this serie we will still argue who the heck did Hermione love. That say no ship did happen and we can even in twenty years argue if H/HR or R/Hr. To come to the ironic part its than H/G what happen. Just to take it ironical again Hermione needed to be out off the way.

AvadaKedavra

August 3rd, 2003, 6:52 pm

Flying Phoenix :rotfl:

HAHAHA! I really hope that doesn't happen. If it did, I would be applauding JKR for her cleverness, and twisting us- that she's got us around her little finger. However, I don't see that happening. I just get the feel that it won't. I'm going by my gut instinct on this one.

And now, onto your other responses.

Growing feelings to a friend who should be only platonic,

Where does it say in canon that H/Hr should be platonic? It, however, does show in canon that Hermione and Ron seem apparent opposites. Out of Ron and Harry, logically, Hermione should go for the one who is the hero, the lifesaver, the gentleman. But she is falling for Ron instead- clashes her "Logicality".

Before that Hermione is pretty much with Ron in agreement about such trivial things like mudblood in COS. But now she steps away from Ron's view of his own world.

Sorry, but I don't get you on this. Steps away from Ron's view on what, precisely? If you're talking about the House Elves, that's in Book 4. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the reconcilitation in POA, which proved that they had a strong bond, that they cared for each other, underlying all the arguing that went on. You say so nicely here;

They do care for each other no doubt

I'm also pointing out that Hermione realises the good in Ron, admires him for it, and there is a sweet moment of togetherness. But, because of their undeveloped and non-existent feelings, what should be a catalyst has no effect on the romantic/potential side, except strengthing their friendship. This is really a trivial point in my theory, and I'm not too bothered if you don't agree with it.

Buckbeak

I don't ignore H/Hr evidence. I argue against it, explaining and giving my own interpretations. Ignoring and arguing against are two totally different things.

Signing out,

Avada

Mirror of Erised

August 3rd, 2003, 6:54 pm

There are good posts by many posters here ( I also wanted to thank those gave me a nice welcome ;) The HMS Harmony shall go on for a long voyage)

I also wanted to just say that I have noticed that many posters basing their opinions on Harry - Ginny / Ron - Hermione are looking at a more introspective thought than what the pages give them. Sure there are some moments that DO in fact prove that Ron does like Hermione. But there is much more substance to the fact that Hermione likes Harry.
Hermione shows that Harry has her interests as many have proven (great post LLeyki ;) as well as Mad Eye Mike's great post on another board (i read it a few days ago through a port key to their web site, another chat forum).
There is just so much thought between Harry and Hermione that this is exactly what could potentially lead to a Love that Harry has never seen before, TRUE LOVE.
But the whole idea is that Harry/Ron/Hermione (from the last book at least) were starting to grow individually. Ron finally started to get recognition for being his own Wizard (aside from all the heroics he was a part of as being one of Harry's side kicks). Harry, by the end of the book was feeling like a marked being, and went down the road of being an outcast. Now, even though Harry was told by Ron and Hermione that they will see him shortly (as well as the stand up actions of the OOTP to the Dursleys) I feel that this will be the catalyst for either ship (Now,this is where I believe the HMS Harmony is sailing in the intended direction) to pull through. Harry finally experienced the feeling of wanting to go back to 4 Privet Drive in this book.
Judging by the reactions of both characters to other circumstances that have affected Harry's short life to date, it is only Hermione who CAN pull him out of that black hole the death of his Godfather left. This includes, Ginny, Ron, Luna Neville, but perhaps Dumbledore could be a close second to Hermy.
The trio of Ron Harry and Hermione I believe will be disappated in the next book, but will come back together when Ron can find a woman who truly loves him as much as he will love her (Luna??? ). Harry makes Hermione have a side that she never experiences without him (bending the rules in order to create calm at Hogwarts). Ron has many moments clashing with Hermione's order, where Harry respects it. Harry will listen to Hermione's opinion out of respect, but it usually leads to a mutual agreement as to how to deal with situations (which usually lies in THE MIDDLE of both their idea's, where Ron will argue for his side only never really truly respecting Hermione's opinion's at all. He knows she is a great Witch, but he's stubborn in his own beliefs.
All in all, Ron is a great friend to Harry, but the relationship between Ron and Hermione is simply too stormy to have the bright moments that lead to deeper feelings (IMHO at least). There is simply so much more magic in a Hermione/Harry moment than any 2 characters in the book. Even more so than Ron/Harry (as it was in the first 2 1/2 books)

lleyki

August 3rd, 2003, 6:55 pm

Fairydust I can say the same thing. I'm still waiting to see the light on WHERE Hermione has those DEEP feelings, she's too scared to share with Ron and I'm still waiting to see the light on Harry's supposed sub-conscious feelings for Ginny. Harry hearing Hermione's voice in his head as part of him is NO sign of subconsious feelings but saying Ginny has flaming red hair; a description he used for ALL the Weasley kids at the start of POA, is? Where and when have there EVER been ANY obvious signs of Harry liking Ginny; but apparently according to you he's been checking her out; so it's a little ridiculos to say that there are NO signs of Harry and Hermione or of her liking him. H/Hr shippers have used MANY examples. Many of you just dismiss it as friendship but as far as I've seen here lately, Hermione cares more for Ron even with all the problems Harry has so there really should be no need for all the attention she gives to Harry and the many things she's done that's just a little too intense for just friendship. Personally like I said from my first post after the books came out; the truth is JK gave one or two moments to every ship. Nothing is concrete and persons acting like one ship is so crazy is just plain silly.

Fairydust

August 3rd, 2003, 6:58 pm

Buckbeak, I've read the H/Hr theories and evidence and I just don't buy it. It seems that the evidence is just all friendly and platonic to me. that's why I say give me gosh darn hard on proof that there is a little inkling of something more than friendship between Harry and Hermione. So far, I haven't seen any. so i will keep asking, where's the rpoof of H/Hr. I see the R/H proof (i don't know, you could probably call me biased because i'm an R/H shipper.) I see it a lot more than I see the H/Hr proof.

Elric

August 3rd, 2003, 7:03 pm

Avada Kedavra, I lean more toward H/Hr than R/Hr, so most of my posts would go that way so I doubt I'd be entirely welcome on HMS Heron, I just like to acknowledge good theories whatever ship they originate from. However if somebody wanted to, seriously, suggest a Draco/Hermione ship I may be unable to restrain myself. :)

Working from the post by Turambar, I do see H/Hr working very well as a complementary partnership. Each can temper the extremes of the others personality, Harry's recklessness and Hermione's tendency to over analyze. Both are extremely loyal to their friends and both react strongly to perceived injustice, Hermione and SPEW and Harry with respect to Snape in the Pensieve, and Luna's missing belongings.

I suppose a question to the ships other than H/Hr, for example the main competitors R/Hr & H/G, is could these other partnerships flourish and still allow the level of H/Hr interaction that will be necessary IMO for Harry to stand a chance at defeating Voldemort.

I know Ginny is developing as a character and it is entirely possible that she's Hermione's equal or even superior in pure magical power, but in terms of depth and breadth of knowledge, and the ability to apply this, she isn't close to Hermione's level and is unlikely to reach it. This isn't an attempt at Ginny bashing, just my take on the respective merits of the two characters.

Fairydust

August 3rd, 2003, 7:06 pm

Ileyki, when I say that Harry is checking out Ginny, I mean the way she is described. "...a long mane of red hair..." come on, 'mane' who would use that word? "...bright brown eyes..." come on? i know that many will think this is weak evidence and by all means, think it weak, but this and some other things make me believe that Harry and Ginny will get together later in the books.

AvadaKedavra

August 3rd, 2003, 7:11 pm

I suppose a question to the ships other than H/Hr, for example the main competitors R/Hr & H/G, is could these other partnerships flourish and still allow the level of H/Hr interaction that will be necessary IMO for Harry to stand a chance at defeating Voldemort.

Both can. Ron knows Hermione and Harry hang around anyway. Ginny, as Hermione's best girlfriend knows this. There shouldn't be any problem unless H/Hr give anyone any idea to think otherwise, to question their friend status.

Yes, Hermione has a better general knowledge and applies this well. But pure magicial power? I don't know, but if pushed to it, I'd opt for Ginny.

Signing out,

Avada.

P.S That seat's always available on the HMS Heron, should you change your mind. :p

Turambar

August 3rd, 2003, 7:19 pm

But Fairydust what about the reference to Harry noticing Ginny's strong resemblance to Fred and George? "...her jaw set so that her resemblance to Fred and George was suddenly striking." Ch Fight and Flight P671 Bloomsbury. How is that flattering?
Isn't that in fact the only full description we have of Ginny in any of the books as opposed to a few previous references to her height, hair or eyes?

Fairydust

August 3rd, 2003, 7:22 pm

Maybe Harry likes the way Fred and George look? lol. i'm just joking. The only time she ever looked like Fred and George was when she was extremely ticked off and wouldn't take any **** form anyone. think otherwise. your opinion, my opinion. tomato tomahto. :)

Hawk 92

August 3rd, 2003, 7:27 pm

*Hawk steps back on board the HMS Harmony*

Permission to come aboard.

OK AK here we go.

Your Five Stage Analysis

First here’s a link to your original post http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=14237&page=55&pp=30

Now here’s the five stages as you present them

STAGE 1: Inauguration
STAGE TWO: Expansion
STAGE 3: Culmination
STAGE 4: Resolution
STAGE FIVE: Reconciliation

OK so far we agree that you have five stages in your theory. Now stage 5 is dependant on the other stages and in fact if one stage is removed then the whole theory is toppled so lets start with

Stage 3: Culmination

Now I’ve posted that JKR clearly established that Hermione doesn’t like Fluer before there is any Ron/Fleur interaction. Here is a link to my post http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?p=499037

Now you may claim that it is irrelevant but JKR wrote it in the text so that makes it relevant to her and since this is a literary debate the text is relevant.

Now I also notice that you claim that Hermione has feelings for Ron after the Yule Ball despite her going out with Krum. OK, first Hermione likes Krum, wether this is romantic or not is still up in the air but lets look at one thing here. The Yule Ball is December 25th, this is Hermione and Krums first date. At the second task is on February 24th , at the second task Krum admits that he has feelings for Hermione that he has never felt for another person and invites her to visit him in Bulgaria. Then at the 3rd task Krum confronts Harry about Hermione. Now when Krum confronts Harry happens in the last week of May, now in Gof pg 549-550 JKR establishes that it is in the last week of May that McGonagall tells Harry to go to the Quiddich field, so lets make May 31st a Saturday in order to be generous, now that would make the earliest possible day to be told, no classes on Sunday’s of course, Monday May 26th. So from your establishing of feelings by Ron to the second task is (and I’ll even start on December 26th to be fair) 61 days. And from the second task to the confrontation between Harry and Krum(I’ll start on February 25th to be fair again) 92 days. So 61+92= 153 days that Hermione continued to see Krum. Now its actually longer than that as I don’t know when the final talk in Gof took place between Hermione and Krum but one has to admit that is a long time after Ron established his jealousy.

Now as we can speculate and I keep hearing that Hermione needs 100% confirmation, what lead up to this line, She then tells him to NOT to ask her as a last resort NEXT time there’s a ball. In short they are having an argument and something was said by Ron before this answer, so what was said?

Stage 3 has 2 glaring omissions. 1) It doesn’t address the fact that Hermione disliked Fleur before any Ron/Fleur interaction and 2) Hermione and Krum’s period of dating. Once again this is relevant to JKR because she wrote this things. So stage 3 is eliminated

Now we are left with,

STAGE 1: Inauguration
STAGE TWO: Expansion
STAGE 4: Resolution
STAGE FIVE: Reconciliation

At this point we could probably let this go as this is a theory of progression and since 3 is eliminated then 4 or 5 is not possible at this time but since you put a lot of effort into this I’ll do the same.

Stage 2

Your symbolism is flawed,

At the end of the year, Ron gets a new pet. It is Pig. Interestingly, the first thing he does is to go to Hermione’s pet, and seeks Crookshanks’s opinion of Pig. It is only when Crookshanks voices his hearty approval, (purring) that Ron accepts his pet.

Remember, at the start of the year, the pets of Ron and Hermione were at loggerheads. But at the end of the year, the pets are at harmony (pardon the pun) and they like each other. If the pets symbolised the karma/desire of Ron and Hermione, then POA was a big book, in terms of the changing feelings and desires of people as they enter puberty. In other words, the planting of the seeds.

In short Ron needs to get a new personality or Hermione needs to get a new partner. As established in your own symbolism.

As the year progresses, we get more “flashes” of caring, for example Hagrid telling Ron that Hermione was very upset when Sirius tried to stab him. Hermione still cares a lot about Ron, despite the fact that the pair are at loggerheads throughout the year. Ron is kick-started into caring, showing Hermione that he cares, by helping out with Buckbeak. He says this with passion and fierceness. This clearly touches Hermione, who bursts into tears and hugs him.

1) Show me what page it is on that Hermione was upset about Sirius trying to stab Ron. I seem to recall that she thought that Sirius was after Harry and had just gotten the wrong bed and that Ron was making a big deal out of it.
2) What words in that Buckbeak exchange to you use to show passion and fierceness?

The strange thing is, the material of their arguments is not that different from what the material was in through PS/SS to CoS. They argue even more, as they start puberty, over similar trivial stuff, leaving no apparent reason to their increased arguing.

I seem to recall that they argue over Harry and what Harry should and shouldn’t do, so is Harry trivial? And I’m afraid that you’ll have to give me some pages that show how you discern that there is no reason for their arguments? And conflicting personalities does once again spring to mind as established in the first book.

Now we are left with,

STAGE 1: Inauguration
STAGE 4: Resolution
STAGE FIVE: Reconciliation

Now stage 5 is agreed as speculation and since 3 and 2 are in doubt we can eliminate 5 for the purposes of this debate by saying that according to this theory it is a theory of progression and one cannot get to 5 without 2 and 3.

Now we are left with,

STAGE 1: Inauguration
STAGE 4: Resolution

So lets look at Stage 4

Hermione kissed Ron on the cheek. This could be interpreted as a sign of encouragement from Hermione. If Ron’s feelings are significant, and that Hermione knows some of them, then why is Hermione kissing him? A gesture this affectionate is bound to give some encouragement to Ron, which if he makes a move, will make things more awkward if Hermione really doesn’t have any feelings for him. This is an example of the small, timid moves by Hermione, to attempt to provoke that “confirmation” that she wants so desperately. Hermione is thinking-

Hermione didn't respond better to the perfume because she wasn't sure that it was a "move." Here she is waiting and waiting for a "move" and when it comes ... well, was it a move? Maybe he got cologne for Harry after all! Who knows?! Hermione could be totally scared to death that she's going to respond too positively to it and make it so obvious that she wants it to be a move, when in the end Ron will come back and say: "Perfume? I meant to get you Dungbombs, the perfume was supposed to be for my mother. The presents must have gotten switched."

These fit into the HMS Harmony theory of Interruptions which I’ll post later.

And the nice thing is that with the interruptions it is established in the text with out the need for additions.

And I guess I’ll have to repost the discussion on the Christmas gifts.

BTW why is Ron making a move and proving at the same time that he doesn’t know much about Hermione?

Now you go into this whole post Valentines day thing, I’m afraid you have to show me how Hermione giving advice on how Harry should have talked to Cho is how she’s giving advice on how to get Cho. At this point Harry is dating Cho, why does he need to get her?

And why are you contradicting your earlier statement, you said that Hermione wasn’t sure that Ron liked and wanted her but now she is comparing Harry’s attempts to Ron’s? So how can she be unsure one moment and sure the next? And how does this prove that Hermione likes Ron?

Hermione’s mind springs to Ron when she thinks of tactlessness and cluelessness on how to get a girl that is wanted. And who does Ron want, as almost universally agreed here? That girl happens to be Hermione.

At this moment, Hermione wonders if Ron really does have feelings, in her despair. He doesn’t seem to be doing anything significant, not to the extent that, she, Hermione wants. And that is the confirmation.

See the contradiction here. One minute Hermione is confidently telling Harry that he is a clueless as Ron then she’s wondering if Ron has feelings for her. Please tell me which one it is?

Well, no, you're not," she sighed, as Ron himself came stumping into the Hall splattered with mud and looking grumpy.

Care to explain to me how you arrived that this is a sigh aimed at Ron vs. a sigh that Hermione gave at the same time that Ron entered?

1) Nothing to suggest that Hermione even saw Ron enter
2) These are 3rd person limited stories. In short Harry noticed Ron enter. There is nothing in the text to suggest that Hermione was looking at Ron as he entered.
3) Interruptions again
4) Why is JKR giving so many multiple meanings to Hr/R moments?
5) Is the sigh because of Harry or Ron? Could go either way.

Now you state that we see signs of giving hints and whatnot. So how come we never hear of Hermione smelling unusual? She never wears Ron’s gift at all. Wouldn’t that have been a great way to encourage Ron?

Now we are left with,

STAGE 1: Inauguration

I agree that they are friends.

Cheers!

Turambar

August 3rd, 2003, 7:39 pm

:clap: :clap: :clap: 00Hawk awesome to have you back.

No Fairydust, it isn't opinion, it's what's written.
1) JKR SAYS when someone is pretty/handsome: Lily, Sirius when younger, Bellatrix when younger, Fleur, Cedric, Hermione, Parvati, Cho have all been described as goodlooking, pretty, very pretty or exceptionally handsome at various times.
2) When has she described any of the Weasleys as good looking? Bill came closest, being described as "cool" in GOF. Someone can be "cool" without being handsome.
3) The twins are short and stocky, like Charlie. Ginny and Molly are also described as short.
4) Ginny has never been described as "pretty" by Harry,
I'm not getting into the girl, I'm just pointing out how Harry sees her.

noddwyd

August 3rd, 2003, 7:42 pm

nice post Hawk, and thanks for finally making this clear, I don't think I quite got it across earlier.
Hermione’s mind springs to Ron when she thinks of tactlessness and cluelessness on how to get a girl that is wanted. And who does Ron want, as almost universally agreed here? That girl happens to be Hermione.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[QUOTE}At this moment, Hermione wonders if Ron really does have feelings, in her despair. He doesn’t seem to be doing anything significant, not to the extent that, she, Hermione wants. And that is the confirmation.See the contradiction here. One minute Hermione is confidently telling Harry that he is a clueless as Ron then she’s wondering if Ron has feelings for her. Please tell me which one it is?[/QUOTE]

Fairydust

August 3rd, 2003, 7:46 pm

No Fairydust, it isn't opinion, it's what's written.
1) JKR SAYS when someone is pretty/handsome: Lily, Sirius when younger, Bellatrix when younger, Fleur, Cedric, Hermione, Parvati, Cho have all been described as goodlooking, pretty, very pretty or exceptionally handsome at various times.
2) When has she described any of the Weasleys as good looking? Bill came closest, being described as "cool" in GOF. Someone can be "cool" without being handsome.
3) The twins are short and stocky, like Charlie. Ginny and Molly are also described as short.
4) Ginny has never been described as "pretty" by Harry,
I'm not getting into the girl, I'm just pointing out how Harry sees her.

It was a joke what i said about Harry thinking maybe Fred and George were good looking. :rolleyes: . and i've never said that Harry has said that Ginny was pretty. he's never checked her out that way. what i have said is that subconsciously he is describing her very glowingly.

Masterfroggy

August 3rd, 2003, 7:48 pm

Dreamprincess288

August 3rd, 2003, 7:51 pm

Wow... I haven't been here in a long time! I've been extremly busy but I'm gonna try and come back and post, I've been meaning to since I read OOTP. Anyway, I'll write more later... *Proudly continues waving the R/Hr and H/G flag!*

Fairydust

August 3rd, 2003, 7:54 pm

"Thanks for the book, Harry,' she said happily. 'I've been wanting that New Theory of Numerology for ages! And that perfume's really unusual, Ron.'"

"Unusual" is a nice way of saying the perfume smell awful and or cheap, (I have two older sisters and know this to my cost) I don't think there is any more to be read into this. Ron like alot of boys his age went into a shop and thinking " girls like perfume" and bought perfume not thinking much more about it than that

You could interpret that in many ways. In my case, I interpreted it as it was an unusual present. I mean, Ron has always gotten her candies or chocolates and now for him to get her perfume, that's a bit unusual. See, that line is so ambiguous that anybody can make any of it. Hermione straight up is a book worm and she would love a book. But Ron got her perfume, and Hermione doesn't really seem like the perfume type of girl. I'm just going to say that "unusual" could mean, not common. as in it's not common for Ron to get her a "girly" gift.

Thank you very much... :p

DumbledoreTheWise

August 3rd, 2003, 8:06 pm

Question: :eyebrows:
Why does everyone here seem to feel that they cannot "prove" the likeliness of a ship without insulting the opposing shipper's possible mate?
Example: H/Hr shippers insult Ron or Ginny to justify their argument.
H/G shippers insult Hermione's intelligence or talent for justification.

There is absolutely no reason why this is necessary. Frankly, it's pathetically childish. I am, and will remain, a believer in H/G and R/Hr. That said, I believe Hermione is extremely talented and can hold her own very well. Ginny is supremely capable of the same. Ron is a great person. Harry is incredible.....I have no animosity toward any four of these characters. I feel that people are supporting ships because they detest certain characters or believe them too stupid and talentless for the other person in question. None of these four deserve that description, and JKR has clearly written otherwise. If that is what you need to revert to for evidence for a ship, then not only do you need to take a look at your reasoning, but perhaps at your heart as well.

DumbledoreTheWise

Hawk 92

August 3rd, 2003, 8:09 pm

00Hawk awesome to have you back.

Good to be back Turambar. And thanks ;)

Great to be back.

*Hawk looks around at HMS Harmony*

Good Lord!! What happened. I see NSYNC posters everywhere. The Backstreet Boys are blaring out of the loudspeaker. And I smell, has Mad Eye Mike been eating dung again. No. Because of all of Mad Eye Mikes promises you had to fire the chef from the Harmony and Sirius83 is now doing the cooking. OK.

Here take the funds from SIGNS and HMS Rooney and hire a chef. In the meantime I’ll have a peanut butter and jelly sandwich for dinner tonight.

Now back on topic,

AK

Ever watch Tombstone, with Kurt Russell and Val Kilmer. If you have then just put Val Kilmer's Doc Holiday voice to this,

So if you don't like something, you're going to ignore it. Please don't go and do a "fudge" on me. The whole point of my theories are to show the opposition ships my perspective, and debate. There's no point in debating with Davydee et al, because he agrees. How can I debate if someone ignores what I say?

I'm your Huckleberry. That's just my game. Now lets look at this and lets not do a fudge :)

HERMIONE/FLEUR - JEALOUS OR DISLIKE?

Now I've heard alot about how Hermione is jealous of Fleur and Ron flirting and I've heard how its because Ron is superficial. But I have a different theory I think that Hermione simply does not like Fleur.

Now to prove this I turn to the text,

Gof pg 250-251 US.

"Good evening, ladies and genltemen, ghosts and -most particularly-guests,"said Dumbledore, beaming around at the foreign students. "I have great pleasure in welcoming you all to Hogwarts. I hope and trust that your stay here will be both comfortable and enjoyable."
One of the Beauxbatons girls still clutching a muffler around her head gave what was unmistakeably a derisive laugh.
"No one's making you stay!" Hermione whispered, bristling at her.

Gof pg 252 US

It was the girl from Beauxbatons who had laughed during Dumbledore's speech. She had finally removed her muffler. A long sheet of silvery-blonde hair fell almost to her waist. She had large, deep blue eyes, and very white, even teeth.

The girl is of course Fleur. After this paragraph Ron begins to flirt with Fleur.

Now lets analyze this....

1) Dumbledore is giving a welcoming speech
2) A Beauxbaton girl gives a derisive laugh
3) Hermione gets mad at that girl
4) JKR points out that Fleur was the one to laugh at Dumbledore's speech
5) Ron flirts with Feur

1) Nothing much here Dumbledore is extending the best hospitality and is being a gracious and welcoming host.

2) A derisive laugh is a scornful contemptable laugh. This Beauxbaton girl is scorning and treating with contempt Hogwarts and Dumbledore acts of hospitality. Please note that JKR makes sure that we know that it is an "unmistakeably a derisive laugh." JKR wants to drive it home.

3)Hermione becomes mad at the girl for being scornful of her school (which she cares about) and Dumbledore (whom she respects). Hermione dislikes this girl and her attitude.

4) JKR makes the connection for us that the girl who laughed is Fleur. We are never left to wonder who the girl is who laughed. JKR makes sure that we know that Fleur is the girl who Hermione was mad at for acting scornful of Hogwarts and Dumbledore. There is no debate at all here.

5) Ron acts flirty with a girl who acts scornful of their school and their Headmaster. And Ron calls Hermione the traitor later. Kinda hypocritical don't you think but thats not relavant here.

Now JKR makes sure that we know that Fleur has done something before Ron flirts with her. And JKR makes sure that we know that Hermione does not care for Fleur for her attitude towards Hogwarts and their teacher.

Now if the Ron/Fleur interaction is to make us aware of Hermione's jealousy then why does JKR make sure that we know that Hermione has a reason to, and a dislike, of Fleur before she shows us any interaction between Ron and Fleur?

Seems pretty clearly established in the text to me.

Cheers!

GilyAnn

August 3rd, 2003, 8:10 pm

So Ginny has some character development in OOTP and she has gone from being invisible to being more understanding of Harry than Hermione, better at making him feel better, better in a crisis and stronger than Hermione? Uh-huh. Persons actually want to make an issue of Harry having to help Hermione when they were duelling in COS. Might I remind persons that Millicent was huge and she was no longer duelling with Hermione when Harry came to help; so much as she was beating up Hermione. They didn't even have wands anymore. The pyscho girl had the person in a head-lock, effectively chocking her. Hell even Harry had trouble getting the girl off.

Incredibly enough Ginny was also being held by a large Slythering girl on OoP and she was able to free herself from her.

Now let's talk about dear, sweet Ginny for a second, shall we? She managed to be manipulated by a diary (even after her father always telling them not to trust anything that can think for itself if you don't know where it's power is coming from), almost got herself, half the kids in the school and Harry; killed. When he came to save her she was completely useless until everything was over, then got up crying about how she was going to be expelled.

Yes let’s do talk about her. Ginny was manipulated by the most evil wizard of times and one that Dumbledore said that he had fool wisest wizards than Ginny. So manipulating Ginny was a piece of cake if smartest wizards had been fool by Voldemort. Hell he even manipulated Dumbledore when he knew that he would act like someone who cared too much about Harry. If he manipulated Dumbledore what’s to say about Ginny. Off course we can always expect Ginny to be smarter than Dumbledore even though she is eleven and be able to be cool calm and collected and not to drop a tear now that she has almost seen or probably seen what’s in death or near death and she knows what kind of damage she could have done and did.

After that she effectively disappers for two books, except to make requisite appearances of "girl who's taken with Harry and blushes when she first sees him." Then comes OOTP, where apparently she's dating, over Harry, can play Quidditch, makes a few funny comments, gives him exactly what he wants without considering any risks and by not doing ANYTHING except telling her big brothers. However because of this she has now become stronger and more helpful to Harry than Hermione. Hermione; who at the same age Ginny was when she foolishly got manipulated by a diary; was saving herself and her friends from tests placed by brilliant and older wizards. The girl who was saving her friend from his death by attacking a teacher. This girl; Ginny has become better than? When and which series was this in because it certainly wasn't in the series I've been reading.

First given up on Harry. Hermione clearly states that. Also Hermione uses what Ginny and the twins used to let Harry talk to Sirius. And they were able to give perfect timing. They didn’t get caught unlike Hermione’s plan that did fail using the same way. And yes Ginny has become such a great character and JKR did her side when she foreshadow all of that in CoS, PoA, GoF. It happend on OoP so JKR foreshadow it and she is the one who should be asked if people don't see it. But I and many fans did see it coming. We didn't make up or interpret Ginny's personality JKR made her that way.

What I have a problem with is persons need to knock Hermione's character down constantly to support this ship and Ginny. What does it say about H/G, that the best way to support and defend them is to minimize, disregard and assasinate Hermione's character? I've seen MANY H/Hr shippers (myself included) write tons supporting their ship with no mention of Ginny's character. However in the past months H/G shippers don't miss a chance to knock Hermione down. She's cold, emotionless, she doesn't get him, she was defending Ron by simply trying to get her friends to talk again,she doesn't show much concern for Harry, she's useless in a crisis, she's not as powerful as Ginny, etc, etc. It amazes me. Harry apparently has so many subconsious feelings for Ginny right? According to someone he's been subconciously "checking her out", there are SO many signs to why they'll end up together, yet the bulk of the arguments here for this ship come from discrediting Hermione's character. I guess that makes that sense. If Hermione is rendered completely imperfect, it certainly makes it believable that after all those years Harry would think Ginny is the one that's perfect for him. There's ONE major problem with this plan. That being that most of the criticism is biased, unfounded in cannon and unfair. Again it is perfectly fine to support any ship you want. Again it's personal taste. Hey if gay couples is your thing; by all means make a case for Harry and Ron. However the harsh criticisms of the characters is not necessary. Hermione may not be perfect as are none of the kids but to disregard her importance and strength over some girl who has had ONE book of not being semi-annoying is unfair and honestly ridiculos.

First after AvadaKedavra wonderful post I have no doubt that Hermione will end up with Ron. Any doubts that I had AvadaKedavra had done the job on clearing them. But seeing the problems that jkr has created for this character is not flaming her is seeing the possibilities on JKR will do with a character that is so near her and has no one to respond. JKR is the first one to criticize Hermione and even created Luna as the Anti-Hermione like she says. JKR is the one that has created the problems for Hermione not any of us. Also I have always said that Hermione is bloody brilliant and that her part on the trio is being the brains. That I have no doubt about but she still need some lessons on others aspects of life that are never in any books. Also the H/Hr ship is based on Ron bashing. Many ppl can’t make a case of the H/Hr ship without bashing Ron.

Buckbeak

Anyway on to Gilyann, first off can i just ask, were you that person who wrote that really long essay on who excactly Ginny was, i saw it ages ago on some Harry/Ginny site, can't remember the name, but anyway if it was you, it was very good you made me realize alot of things about Ginny that i never knew, also it made me like the H/G ship even more. If it wasn't you though, then theres another person with a similer name who also loves Ginny going around the net, you should meet up .

If it was FATE it was mine. If not tell me which site it is because it was posted on several websites.

Now Gilyann i have read your posts on here, and i know you really don't like H/Hr but to make Harry out to be some sort of selfless moron just to prove your point is kind of tactless. Its really not what Harry is about, he's the stupid, yes but at the same time brave and caring hero, who thinks to much about everyone else (if he didn't then there wouldn't really be much of a story line, considering we see everything for his POV), i have seen no proof that Harry cares more for Ginny than Hermione. Ginny is not part of the trio so she is not Harry's best friend like Ron and Hermione are, so theres no reason for him to care for her more, in fact, and it pains me to say this, but at the moment Harry sees Ginny no more than a little girl. for instances (i don't have my book so this isn't exact) in OoTP when they're about to board the thestrals Ginny says that she's coming and Harry is about to respond, your too young, and she has to remind him that she's two years older than he was when he rescued her from the chamber. Doesn't he then look to Ron for backup? i can't remember that exactly, i'll have to check that up. but anyway Harry's not interested in Ginny because of this reason. im sorry to break it to you, but thats a fact, whether things will change, i don't know, but for now there is nothing.

Because I see Hermione as a great character is that I don’t think she is suitable for Harry. I failed to see how could anyone read this books and not see how little appreciation for Hermione Harry shows. Sure Ron bickers, teases her and bothers Hermione but at least he cares enough for her. Take for example the part about the Rita Seeker articles when Hermione was getting all that hate mail. It really PAIN ME to see how Harry never ONCE cared enough to demand to see Hermione’s mail and prevented her from getting all those awful letters. RON is the one who cared enough for Hermione to see blimey she should be carefull. Harry didn’t even bother to accompany her to the hospital wing. The whole thing was his fault! Yet I would like her to end up with a guy that doesn’t even care enough to prevent her from getting hate mail.

You and other shippers may want to make it look like I’m bashing Hermione to justify my ship. But I’m not! I’m more worried about Voldemort getting in the way of H/G that what I am about other ships. See it as you want to see it. It’s you opinion and you are entitled to it. But the fact is that Hermione is character that at the same time that she is a great character, incredibly brilliant and very loyal friend she is also a character that has a lot of problems. Problems that JKR hasn’t began to resolve and that as book 5 seemed to be getting deeper. So at this point I’m more worried about Hermione’s plot lines becoming in the way of R/Hr that what I am about of R/Hr not happening.

If im honest i really couldn't care less who Ron or Hermione or Ginny goes with, the only one who id like to see in a relationship is Harry, and the only reason for that is because he's the main character. if Ron and Hermione got together, then what? Harry won't be hanging around with them as much, he'll be an intruder. he might be able to stay best friends with Ron, but considering how jealous Ron gets, he won't be able to continue being as good a friends with Hermione.

You see this one thing that we deeply refer. R/Hr would cement the base of the trio. R/Hr are Harry’s support. Harry is always aside from them. Them happening won’t change much. Because at this point I’m sure IMHO that Harry knows that Hermione likes Ron and that Ron likes her back(I’m just wondering how thick headed Ron is going to finally notice). So if he hangs around them is because they are his friends. R/Hr won’t be snooging off every minute of the day and if they are snoogging. I’m sure that Harry will be with Ginny snoogging also. :p Harry knows that Hermione writes to Ron, talks about him with Ron, study’s with Ron, goes to Hogsmade with Ron they do a lot of things together and it still doesn’t bother him. So I see it clearly that R/Hr doesn’t change much on the trio dynamics. Plus I also see that jkr is starting to desintegrate the trio on the purpose of growing up.

And if Harry and Hermione arn't as good as friends as they are at the moment, then i don't know where Harry would be.
JK has said that 'Harry needs Hermione' so if R/Hr happen, the trio won't be as strong as it was and possibly even come to an end. If H/Hr happen, the trio won't be as strong as it was and possibly come to an end, but at least Harry would still have Hermione with him, because remember he needs her, for a whole lot more things than to stay alive.
Now once again im only posting my thoughts on the subject, whether i make sense or not, is not important, only the fact that i have a point is and it is in there somewhere believe me.

I have always said that they are friends. If anyone reads my post I make that very clear. But their friendship is on serious trouble. I don't doubt that they are friends but I don't see their friendship as deep as the one he has with Ron.

“Harry needs Hermione badly” here is what jkr said:

She breaks off and then starts to mutter. "It irritates me. It irritates me. What irritates me is that I am constantly, increasingly, being asked 'Can we have a strong female character, please?' Like they are ordering a side order of chips. I am thinking 'Isn't Hermione strong enough for you?' She is the most brilliant of the three and they need her. Harry needs her badly.

Harry needs Hermione intelligence. I have no doubt of that. JKR was specific about how brilliant of the three she was. I have no doubt that she is. NO DOUBT. Hermione’s side of the trio is being that the brains of the operation. Ron is the heart, people side and the one that knows about wizardings stuff that are not in books and Harry the leader. Harry is at the top of Ron and Hermione he is aside from his sidekicks. His sidekicks being together only cement the relationship and help’s it be stronger because Harry is always aside from them. Plus I see no love triangle coming up. NONE. Harry loves Ron too much, he is too special to him.

Gily Ann

Hawk 92

August 3rd, 2003, 8:19 pm

Now lets work on interruptions,

Ok Now I do claim a small amount for the whole interruptions theory but to be honest it was a combination of a lot of the crew of HMS Harmony from the old Love Thread. So Turamabar, Sirius83, Gracie, Perdita, Made Eye Mike, FP, Sarmi, GG, BabyMars, and a whole lot of others that are too numerous to write deserve the credit. They were pointing at the moments I simply made the connection. So the theory of Interruptions really belongs to all of HMS Harmony.

Anyway to recap briefly. JKR likes to keep us guessing and to keep us in suspense about our favorite characters. But at the same time she gives us ways to figure out what has been going on so that we do not feel cheated when these plot twists are given out. She creates a mystery but gives us the means to solve it. One way she gives hints is to give the hint and then shift our foucs to another person or event. It is a rather interesting pattern that you can notice that she uses with several of her mysteries.

I noticed that she does the same thing with H/Hr moments in the story. In short whenever you get a H/Hr moment JKR puts something in there to shift your focus away from H/Hr. So it lead me to wonder if there was something there that JKR didn't want us to see too easy.

In all honesty if this had happened once or twice you could dismiss it as conicindence or mere chance or that I was reading too much into the moments. But there is an established pattern back to SS/PS which made me wonder if there isn't something there after all.

All pages and quotes come from the US versions of the HP series, and all emphasis is JKR and not mine.

PS/SS Ch16 Through the Trapdoor pg 286-287.
Hermione's lip trembled, and she suddenly dashed at Harry and threw her arms around him.
"Hermione"
"Harry--you're a great wizard, you know."
"I'm not as good as you,"said Harry, very embarrassed, as she let go of him.
"Me!" said Hermione. "Books! And cleverness! There are more important things--friendship and bravery and --- oh Harry --be careful!"
"You drink first," said Harry.

Here we see in PS/SS a H/Hr moment and our attention is then immediately shifted to the bottle that they have to drink and the fact that one of these could be poison. After that our attention goes to Harry facing Voldemort and Quirrel.

Cos Chapter 14 Cornelius Fudge pg 256
McGonagall has just stopped the Quiddich match.

Then she (McGonagall) lowered the megaphone and beckoned Harry over to her.
“Potter, I think that you’d better come with me....”
Wondering how she could possibly suspect him this time, Harry saw Ron detach himself from the complaining crowd; he came running up to them as they set off towards the castle. To Harry’s surprise, Professor McGonagall didn’t object.
“Yes, perhaps you’d better come, too, Weasley.....”

Now Hermione had just been petrified and McGonagall, a teacher who JKR describes as very observant and does miss much seeks out Harry first to tell him. Then JKR inserts Ron and McGonagall includes him as a after thought. So a H/Hr moment has Ron inserted into it to confuse us (interrupt) with Ron.

PoA Chapter 12 The Patronus pg 250-251
“Can I sit down then? Harry asked Hermione.
“I suppose so ,” said Hermione, moving a great stack of parchment off a chair.
Harry looked around at the cluttered table, at the long Arthimancy essay on which the ink was still glistening, at the even longer Muggles Studies (“Explain Why Muggles Need Electricity”) and at the rune translation Hermione was now poring over.
“How are you getting through all this stuff?” Harry asked her.
“Oh, well — you know — working hard” said Hermione. Close up, Harry saw that she almost looked as tired as Lupin.
“Why don’t you just drop a couple of subjects?” Harry asked, watching her lifting books as she looked for her rune dictionary.
“I couldn’t do that!” said Hermione looking scandalized.
“Arthimancy looks terrible,” said Harry picking up a very complicated-looking number chart.
“Oh no, it’s wonderful!” said Hermione earnestly. “It’s my favorite subject! It’s — “
But exactly what was wonderful about Arithmancy, Harry never found out. At that precise moment , a strangled yell echoed down the boy’s staircase.

Insert Ron and the whole much debated Scabbers incident. So you see once again our attention is shifted from Harry and Hermione to Ron. And during this a rather long period of Hermione’s absence from the group.

Now AK has pointed out 2 more.
1) The christmas gifts. Hermione is excited about Harry's gift but we never get to find out Harry's reaction to Hermione's excitement because of Ron's gift and Hermione's gift to Ketcher.

2) Harry and Hermione never get to finish their talk about the Cho fiasco due to the insertion of Ron again. And it works great with that Sigh. Is that sigh for Harry or Ron?

Cheers!

Fairydust

August 3rd, 2003, 8:26 pm

I'm going to stick my theory that that sigh was for Ron. Everyone else can think otherwise. But I believe that sigh was because Hermione was frustrated about Ron.

Mad Eye Mike

August 3rd, 2003, 8:32 pm

What's this? Hawk is back? Whoo-Hoo!

*You never need ask permission to come on board.*

Brilliant rebuttles Hawk, simply brilliant. :clap: :clap:

I'd also like to :welcome: all the new H/Hr shippers to the thread.

Hawk 92

August 3rd, 2003, 8:33 pm

Had a pretty good trip on the HMS Hawknest there Turambar
Took a spin out by Degobah and learned some new tricks. Such as,

*Hawk waves his hand Jedi like*
Hawk: The investigation against the HMS Harmony MI6 division is dropped.
Mad Eye Mike: The investigation against the HMS Harmony MI6 division is dropped.
Hawk: Mad Eye Mike is a cheeky bugger
Mad Eye Mike: Mad Eye Mike is a cheeky bugger
Hawk: and a dung eating git.
Mad Eye Mike: and a dung eating git.

See it comes in handy.

Now for the second part of the interruptions theory:

Gof Ch 18 The Weighing of the Wands pg 290
Harry and Ron have just had their falling out because Harry was chosen as a school champion. And Hermione and Harry are talking about it.
Harry – “Maybe he’ll believe I’m not enjoying myself once I’ve got my neck broken or – “
“That’s not funny,” said Hermione quietly. “That’s not funny at all.” She looked extremely anxious. “Harry I’ve been thinking – you know what we’ve got to do, don’t you? Straight away, the moment that we get back to the castle?”
“Yeah, give Ron a good kick up the – “
“Write to Sirius”

Another moment interrupted by the insertion of Ron and then we focus on Harry telling Sirius so that our attention goes elsewhere.

Now in OotP the pattern remain Perdita in her excellent post, Very nicely done Perdy, already commented on the interruption with Harry and a possible second kiss so I won’t reexamine that one. Instead I’ll give you a new one to think about.

OotP Ch 26 Seen and Unseen pg 572
Hermione and Harry discussing Harry’s date with Cho.
Hermione – “And it might have been a good idea to mention how ugly you think I am too,” Hermione added as an afterthought.
“But I don’t think you’re ugly,” said Harry, bemused.
Hermione laughed.
“Harry, you’re worse than Ron.....Well, no, you’re not,” she sighed, as Ron himself came stumping into the Hall splattered with mud and looking grumpy.

Another moment and surprise it’s interrupted by Ron again so that our focus is once again shifted to Ron.

Do you see the pattern?

Cheers!

Fairydust

August 3rd, 2003, 8:44 pm

OotP Ch 26 Seen and Unseen pg 572
Hermione and Harry discussing Harry’s date with Cho.
Hermione – “And it might have been a good idea to mention how ugly you think I am too,” Hermione added as an afterthought.
“But I don’t think you’re ugly,” said Harry, bemused.
Hermione laughed.
“Harry, you’re worse than Ron.....Well, no, you’re not,” she sighed, as Ron himself came stumping into the Hall splattered with mud and looking grumpy.

Another moment and surprise it’s interrupted by Ron again so that our focus is once again shifted to Ron.

Do you see the pattern?

Cheers!

I'm sorry, but didn't she say that to Harry when he left Cho in Hogsmeade to meet her and Rita and Luna. They were in the Three Broomsticks and so weren't interrupted by Ron because Ron was at Quidditch practice. Hermione brought up Ron at that moment. Ron did not interrupt that *ahem* H/H moment. you got it a bit wrong. sorry.
Yup... :agree:

Hawk 92

August 3rd, 2003, 8:51 pm

I'm sorry, but didn't she say that to Harry when he left Cho in Hogsmeade to meet her and Rita and Luna. They were in the Three Broomsticks and so weren't interrupted by Ron because Ron was at Quidditch practice. Hermione brought up Ron at that moment. Ron did not interrupt that *ahem* H/H moment. you got it a bit wrong. sorry.

Actually no Fairydust. You're thinking of the Beetle at Bay chapter. Check my pages that I gave you. I'm talking about Harry and Hermione talking about his date with Cho then Ron comes in from Quiddich Practice.

Look at the Chapter and the Page. I realize that I might have the American version so the pages might be different but the chapter is the same. And I'm not talking about the meeting with Rita/Hermione/Luna/ and Harry in any way shape or form. Sorry. :no:

Now on to the Christmas Gifts: (As Promised)

Alot of people pointed to the Christmas gifts as being a sing of shipping so in my usual fashion I went to the book to see what had happened,

Page 503 US version,

"Thanks for the book Harry!" she said happily. "I've been wanting that New Theory of Numerology for ages! And that perfume is really unusal, Ron."

Emphasis JKR.

Now at an intial look it doesn't seem to be alot.
1) The Trio has exchanged gifts. This happens every Christmas.
2) Harry has gotten her a book
3) Ron has gotten her perfume
4) Hermione is thanking both boys for their gifts

Now a slightly deeper look,

I notice the word unusual in front of the perfume gift. This is usually not a good thing. Generally when people refer to an unusual gift it doesn't show that they like it alot. This however is based on personal experience and is subject to interpetation.

The book itself "New Theory of Numerology" is interesting. Hermione's favorite subject is Arithmancy and this book clearly seems to be a part of Arithmancy. Hermione told Harry that she loved Arthimancy and that it was her favorite subject. Harry was listening. Knowing that Hermione loves books and Hermione loves Arithmancy, Harry combined the two. I think it also illiustrates that Harry is not as oblivious to Hermione as is often claimed in many debates. She did tell him it was her favorite subject in POA. Harry heard and Harry remembered.

And now for what's truly interesting. The grammer. Hmm the grammer, that sounds wierd even to me. :)

*Hawk takes out his old grade school english book*

Now after Hermione speaking to Harry the sentence ends with an exclamation point, twice. While thanking him and while telling us what he gave her.

exclamation point
n (1824): a mark ] used esp. after an interjection or exclamation to indicate forcefulutterance or strong feeling--called also exclamation mark

And now the sentence with Ron's gift ends in a period.
period
1: the completion of a cycle, a series of events, or asingle action: conclusion

So while Harry's gift is being given emphasis, strong feeling, and a forceful utterance, Hermione is truly thanking him for the gift. The perfume comes off as a polite afterthought.

Cheers!

humongoratdropping

August 3rd, 2003, 8:55 pm

Yes, Fairydust. I don't agree with the H/H shippers that Ron interrupt liek every H/H moment; no, I think that JK put in Ron to deliberately shift the reader's attention away from any H/H hints.

Sirius83

August 3rd, 2003, 8:56 pm

I am currently trying to take a short break from this thread, but i'd like to welcome 00Hawk back aboard! It's good to have you back man. However, i should not cook. I can burn water (don't ask me how, just accept it). I'll pass the reins for that on to Hermes since he seems dormant enough to have the time for it.

EDIT: I just noticed, you're back Dreamprincess288! A big welcome back to you as well!

Hawk 92

August 3rd, 2003, 9:01 pm

Yes, Fairydust. I don't agree with the H/H shippers that Ron interrupt liek every H/H moment; no, I think that JK put in Ron to deliberately shift the reader's attention away from any H/H hints.

Oddly enough if you look at my examples I didn't give Ron shifting away the focus every time. In fact in one its Sirius and in the other its them facing the potions test.

Cheers!

Perdita

August 3rd, 2003, 9:06 pm

AK, good effort on that essay. You obviously put a lot of work into it and so I give you a :clap: for your hard work.

:welcome: to Elric and Frostbite Panda!

Welcome back to the thread, DreamPrincess!

And last, but not least, WELCOME BACK, HAWK 92! :D

Those 3 responses were simply excellent! :clap: :D

AvadaKedavra

August 3rd, 2003, 9:07 pm

Hawk

No. Sorry, but this time some of your rebuttals don't hold. Let's start. (please read carefully in order to prevent any misunderstanding.)

Now you may claim that it is irrelevant but JKR wrote it in the text so that makes it relevant to her and since this is a literary debate the text is relevant.

You're finding invisible holes, IMO. To this I can only reiterate what I said.

I said:

We are told (clearly) of Hermione’s dislike of Fleur. Is it possible that Hermione dislikes Fleur, because she possesses what Hermione doesn’t have- outstanding beauty? Quite so, especially as we learn of Hermione’s dislike of Veelas and the Veela connection to Fleur. It is also possible that Hermione, deep inside, is jealous of Fleur’s beauty AND knowledge, despite also having other reasons to dislike her.

In fact, it would not make a lot of sense, if Hermione's later reactions were "still provoked" by her original reason for disliking Fleur, given the context of those two situations (kissing) and (praising-"sucking up to"), which both involved Ron.

I notice that you have completely omitted my detailed analysis of the scenes, with analysis of the grammar and syntax, which are very telling. With the above paragraph in mind, I suggest you read them again.

Next, Now I also notice that you claim that Hermione has feelings for Ron after the Yule Ball

Ah...I cannot state how important this is, the critical thing is the nature of the feelings. It's not as straightforward as liking and not liking. If you read again, I say the following:

Hermione, in that she started to suspect that Ron had feelings for her, and subconsciously, examine what she felt at this, if it was true.

Hermione was deep down, at the back of her mind, examining what she felt at the possibility of Ron liking her. She wasn't liking Ron outright. This wasn't even prominent in her conscious.

May I point out that H/Hr have done the exact same thing, about Hermione's "feelings" when she gives advice to Cho- her subconscious feelings don't stop her from giving advice to Harry about Cho, or encouraging him, but when the kiss happens, this forces her to examine her subconscious feelings, influencing her actions in the PKA. If H/Hr do this, I think R/Hr are entitled to play the same card. Sorry, but that's being fair.

I'd like to point something out, to save some people's rebuttals, when they read this. If you're planning to point out the "inconsistency" that Hermione is subconcsiously examining her feelings in response to the possibility that Ron may like her, and this is inconsistent to her being jealous/displaying animosity to Fleur, indicating concsious feeling, read this from what I said in the essay.

Now, Hermione is at the same stage as Ron was at the Yule Brawl- allowing subconscious feelings to surface and manipulate reactions to such. However, she is in denial to this, like Ron was earlier at the Yule Brawl- developing mental excuses.

Hermione is using her original reason of disliking Fleur to "repress" the reason of her jealousy at those instances. And interestingly, those instances of "jealousy" or "animosity" occur after the Yule Brawl, giving us a good indication of what the subconscious examining of her feelings in response to Ron's possible feelings is throwing up.

Now, if it's clear that Hermione is only subconsciously examining her feelings at the possibility of Ron's feelings, and this does not have in any way an effect on the conscious behaviour, apart from occassional surfacing at stimuli-i.e. Fleur, and this means she does not outrightly have feelings for Ron at this stage, then I can, and will omit the length of time that Hermione spent with Krum.

Eliminated? Ahem.

Let's move on to your next "elimination."

In short Ron needs to get a new personality

What? What do you mean by that? I pointed out that if karmas are represented by pets, and that pets are united, in that they accept each other, then this is the planting of the seed.

I'm more than happy to point out why. First, allow me to produce a defnition of "karma". As I click on the "synonyms" in my word processor, the first three offered are "fate", "destiny", and "fortune".

Now, if pets are representative of "karmas", then this is the start- the interwining of those three words that have been thrown up by the word processor.

So if this rather plausible theory is correct, pre POA, R/Hr were not "connected"- in that their karmas were different. But after POA, things have changed. R/Hr's karmas are now linked. The seed has been planted.

That's out of the way.

Now onto your first glaring misinterpretation.

1) Show me what page it is on that Hermione was upset about Sirius trying to stab Ron. I seem to recall that she thought that Sirius was after Harry and had just gotten the wrong bed and that Ron was making a big deal out of it.
2) What words in that Buckbeak exchange to you use to show passion and fierceness?

1) OK. Here it is.

'Really upset, she was, when Black nearly stabbed yeh, Ron.'

2) OK. Here it is.

'Yeah it will', said Ron fiercely.'You won't have to do all of the work alone this time, Hermione. I'll help.'

'Oh Ron!'
Hermione flung her arms around Ron's neck and broke down completely. Ron, looking quite terrified, patted her very awkwardly on the top of her head. Finally, Hermione drew away.
'Ron, I'm really sorry about Scabbers...' she sobbed"

A lot of emotion and passion in that scene.

[QUOTE]I seem to recall that they argue over Harry and what Harry should and shouldn’t do, so is Harry trivial? And I’m afraid that you’ll have to give me some pages that show how you discern that there is no reason for their arguments? And conflicting personalities does once again spring to mind as established in the first book.

I was referring to the pets. If you notice, the BIGGEST arguments in the book and the longest bust up, was over the pets. Pets are trivial. Hermione and Ron could've easily found a solution. As Hagrid said,

'Ah well, people can be a bit stupid abou' their pets.' said Hagrid wisely.

Conflicting personalites? I'm going to have to agree there. But how does this detract from my theory as a whole? If you remember that in PS/SS to COS, their arguments were the result of "conflicting personalites". So what is the result of the "increase"?

Moving on.

Now you go into this whole post Valentines day thing, I’m afraid you have to show me how Hermione giving advice on how Harry should have talked to Cho is how she’s giving advice on how to get Cho. At this point Harry is dating Cho, why does he need to get her?

What??? After Valentine's day, I assumed that Cho had dumped Harry. Cho walked out of the cafe. Hermione was giving Harry advise on what he should have done, and advice on girls in general. Harry can then keep this in mind, and go to Cho, and regurgiate what Hermione said he should have done, albeit in the past tense, and all will be happy.

And why are you contradicting your earlier statement, you said that Hermione wasn’t sure that Ron liked and wanted her but now she is comparing Harry’s attempts to Ron’s? So how can she be unsure one moment and sure the next? And how does this prove that Hermione likes Ron?

One moment, then the next? I think you mean a year and a quarter. Things change. After the Yule Brawl, Ron did nothing at all to indicate to Hermione that her suspicions were correct. Then perfume for Christmas. This gets Hermione thinking again. She wants to find out a little bit more. So she kisses him. Read the following, once again extracted from my essay.

In other words, Hermione is thinking- Ron is tactless and clueless when it comes to getting Hermione, if he has feelings for her. In other words, Ron is going about it in the wrong way and he is simply not picking up the clues, for example, the kiss (if it was intended the way I think it was.). If he, Ron, does indeed, like Hermione, then why isn’t he doing anything about it? He is not (in Hermione’s opinion) making it totally clear that he likes Hermione, and refusing to take it up to the next level. Hermione wants confirmation, and Ron is not giving it, despite indications that he may like Hermione.

Perfectly self explanatory. What is Ron doing? Does he like her? If he does, he isn't going about it the right way. He's clueless and tactless.

Next.

1) Nothing to suggest that Hermione even saw Ron enter
2) These are 3rd person limited stories. In short Harry noticed Ron enter. There is nothing in the text to suggest that Hermione was looking at Ron as he entered.

The thing is the word "as". Thanks to my word processor, the synonyms are (first three) "because", "since", "seeing that". I rest my case. You would do well to keep this in mind when you re-read the Fleur analysis.

So how come we never hear of Hermione smelling unusual? She never wears Ron’s gift at all. Wouldn’t that have been a great way to encourage Ron?

This is not Ron's failure to notice that she wears it. This is Harry's failure to notice that she wears any. Hmm?

And so I come to the end of the "rebuttal". I applaud you for your effort, and thank you for making me realise some things that aren't so clear in the original essay, which I will modify myself. Accept my apology for this.

Sorry, but I think you appreciate that the theory still stands, firmly.

Signing out,

Avada

EDIT: Don't worry I'm not going to do a fudge on you. I explain above what I think about that particular situation. I have never seen Tombstone, and I am profoundly deaf, so I can't even imagine what a Doc Holliday voice would sound like. :lol:

Turambar

August 3rd, 2003, 9:18 pm

Posted by Fairydust:
It was a joke what i said about Harry thinking maybe Fred and George were good looking. . and i've never said that Harry has said that Ginny was pretty. he's never checked her out that way. what i have said is that subconsciously he is describing her very glowingly.
xxxxxx

Yes I realised it was a joke. My point was to make it clear that so far Harry has not described Ginny as good looking in canon. He does not find her physically attractive. Obviously that could change, if JKR wants it to change.
Just to be clear:
a) the fact that Harry doesn't see her as attractive is not a negative reflection on Ginny herself and
b) other characters have found her attractive, Neville, Michael and Dean.
But by saying that subconciously Harry describes her very glowingly aren't you saying that subconciously he finds her attractive? Aren't you in effect arguing that the guy finds her attractive but doesn't realise it?

:welcome: back Dreamprincess.

Mirror of Erised

August 3rd, 2003, 9:19 pm

Originally posted by Avada Kedavra:
1) OK. Here it is.
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'Really upset, she was, when Black nearly stabbed yeh, Ron.'
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yeah... But either way they were/are good friends. A person like Hermione would've been upset if it was Colin Creevey who got stabbed. I believe that JKR wrote about Hermione's disposition of Sirius entering the Gryffindors boys dorm, which can emphasize that Hermione still cares for the boys. What would have been interesting is to see where Hermione whould have went if it had been Harry attacked. For example in this past book, she put her neck on the line alongside Harry's in Umbridge's office... Just prior to Harry being hit with the Crucio curse. She went with pure instinct on that one, and truly did not have a plan other than the fact that at least in the forbidden forest, there was bound to be the Centaurs to tell Umbridge (and perhaps both of them) off.

AvadaKedavra

August 3rd, 2003, 9:27 pm

Mirror

Hawk challenged that particular, tiny, part of my OVERALL theory. I was happily supplying the evidence for this challenging. I never ever said because Hermione was upset/cared about Ron that it meant she liked him.

Signing out,

Avada

Earendil

August 3rd, 2003, 9:33 pm

Originally posted by AvadaKedavra
If this happened in GOF, a book which many consider a quite strong book R/Hr evidence-wise, the possibility of Ron and Hermione would have been practically guaranteed. Not what JKR wants. Besides, I thought the conflict wasn’t relevant in terms of “romantic connotation” but rather a struggle by the trio to hold together their fundamental friendship, taken at face value.

Nothing would have been guaranteed because, as you said above, the conflict did not necessarily have a romantic connotation (or, in my eyes, romantic implications). If Hermione had sided with Ron, I believe that it would have shown where her loyalties lie stronger within the trio. As such, the author took the trouble to show Hermione as Harry's lone ally in his time of need.

Oh, yes it can. The events in OOTP, especially Harry’s struggles and Voldemort almost put a “total” stopper on the progression. The feelings are not advanced yet enough to be “unstoppable”, as in your vision of it suggests.

I don't believe that the natural progression of feelings in two fifteen year olds can be manually impeded to fit the circumstances. While I can readily accept that they can suppress the expression of said feelings, but the evidence given supports only speculation rather than a clear-cut indication that Hermione, at least, is attempting to hide her growing feelings for Ron for the sake of convenience.

Regarding the resolution: if, as you suggested, the arguing part of Ron and Hermione's friendship has been resolved (or nearly resolved), they still continue to bicker pettily as late as the chapter "OWLs". It seems that they have no problem in continuing to verbally spar, rather than to settle their disagreements maturely.

I see it like a graph too. But in my vision, R/Hr is increasing, but at a slower rate. H/Hr is on a different graph- the one that says “platonic friends only”.

:no: Math. What does the world need with it. Funny thing is, I used to think that R/Hr was increasing at a constant rate prior to OotP, and then it slowed down--or, in my eyes--leveled off. Hm. :whistle:

Oh, no, no, no. I’ve been teaching Gollum some basic magic and he seems to be taking to it like a duck to water.

“Gollum, excellent Confundus Charm! Take an extra bowl of cat food!”

Say what you will. I've put my trust in Gollum (and who said he likes cat food anyway? Unless its fissssh flavored?). Not to mention that, with the return of Hawk, it appears that the Harmony now has yet another powerful ally in the form of Qui-Gon Jinn. *bows to Liam Neeson*

And with that, I want to extend a warm welcome back to Hawk--some very nice replies today, but I never even knew we had a chef around here. :scared: And here I've been sharing Gollum's food.

Hawk 92

August 3rd, 2003, 9:35 pm

AK

No. Sorry, but this time some of your rebuttals don't hold. Let's start. (please read carefully in order to prevent any misunderstanding.)

Lets both take this advice shall we.

Now Hermione dislikes Fleur for her treatment of her school and her headmaster before she knows that she is a Veela. Harry doesn't confirm this until after the weighing of the wands.

So,

Hermione is using her original reason of disliking Fleur to "repress" the reason of her jealousy at those instances. And interestingly, those instances of "jealousy" or "animosity" occur after the Yule Brawl, giving us a good indication of what the subconscious examining of her feelings in response to Ron's possible feelings is throwing up.

Now, if it's clear that Hermione is only subconsciously examining her feelings at the possibility of Ron's feelings, and this does not have in any way an effect on the conscious behaviour, apart from occassional surfacing at stimuli-i.e. Fleur, and this means she does not outrightly have feelings for Ron at this stage, then I can, and will omit the length of time that Hermione spent with Krum.

Eliminated? Ahem.

Anything that you omit is because it takes away from your theory and thus proves that your theory cannot stand against the text. Simply put it is in there for a reason. But you omit what you want.

Now you go to all this lengths to say the Hermione has subconscious feelings for Ron but I'll give you one from Harry straight from the text no need to add anything.

Krum says to Harry Hermione speaks about you alot. No need to insert anything here, a simple statement.

And your texual proof that Hermione is the type to repress things?

In fact, it would not make a lot of sense, if Hermione's later reactions were "still provoked" by her original reason for disliking Fleur, given the context of those two situations (kissing) and (praising-"sucking up to"), which both involved Ron.

And Harry.

What? What do you mean by that? I pointed out that if karmas are represented by pets, and that pets are united, in that they accept each other, then this is the planting of the seed.

I'm more than happy to point out why. First, allow me to produce a defnition of "karma". As I click on the "synonyms" in my word processor, the first three offered are "fate", "destiny", and "fortune".

Now, if pets are representative of "karmas", then this is the start- the interwining of those three words that have been thrown up by the word processor.

So if this rather plausible theory is correct, pre POA, R/Hr were not "connected"- in that their karmas were different. But after POA, things have changed. R/Hr's karmas are now linked. The seed has been planted.

Simple Scabbers is a rat when they first meet. Pig is an owl. 2 different types of animals. Second Scabbers is a second hand rat and Pig is a brand new pet bought just for Ron. So Ron either needs to get a new and different type of personality for this karma or a new and different type of girl. The seed has no roots.

Sorry, but I think you appreciate that the theory still stands, firmly.

Not so long as there are omissions.

Cheers!

evaluna

August 3rd, 2003, 9:35 pm

Fellow shippers, great posts all! Earendil [the light *has* saved us!], Turambar, Sone, and Hawk [WOW re: your posts & glad you’re back, my fellow traveller & shipmate -- seems your shore leave was time well spent], hats off to your superb rebuttals.
And noddwyd:, my thanks to you as well! You didn’t miss a beat there, did you?
Welcome all ye newbies. Still feel that way myself...Anyway, we will not let you abandon all hope, so rest easy.

There’s a lot to address, but I’m going to leave that for tonight and just ruminate…my mates aboard the Harmony continue to implement such great strategic maneouvers, so I have no worries…

Nia, enjoyed your post – well researched stuff is always appreciated here. I agree that Harry is a classic anti-hero ! In particular, I very much agreed with the following:

Original post by Nia
Notice, though, in every book, Harry and Hermione are forced into some kind of partnership, where their combined strengths are required for success. I believe that in the end, we will see their combined strengths forming a deliberate partnership between these two that becomes an incredible force

If you notice in OoP, they are moving slowly toward an equal partnership with Hermione learning practical Defense against the Dark Arts and Harry vowing to put more effort into his studies as well as his open acknowledgement that Hermione was right.

Although I see all the clues for other ships, I cannot see at this point how any ship (with Harry as the male half) other than H/Hr has any bearing on the exposition of JKR’s story. And I cannot see how she would write in so many H/Hr partnership moments if the fact that they work together is not significant.

And on the lighter side…
Original post by Nia
I find it also enormously interesting that the rune is connected with horses. Hermione makes a statement posters on the Harry Potter for Grownups list have called “rude.” Ch. 27 “Centaur and the Sneak” p.599 (American edition)

“I bet you wish you hadn’t given up Divination now, don’t you, Hermione?” asked Parvati smirking. <snip>
“Not really,” said Hermione indifferently, who was reading the Daily Prophet. “I’ve never really liked horses.”

LOL. :lol: Does seem a bit rude, doesn't it? Re: ship, this was humourous. Regarding such, I could then perhaps assume if [or rather, when] Hermione gets over her dislike of horses, then things might move along a bit more briskly in their partnership... ;)

Nia’s posts brought something to mind that I wasn’t sure had ever been addressed. I’m still planning to show why star-sign matchups some had posted on the R/Hr side a bit earlier won’t work per JKR [*way* too obvious IMO for her anyway…] but I wanted to just briefly and casually explore why I think Harry and Hermione are anti-heroes and how it’s largely based on character and attitudes, because I hadn’t previously given much thought to how others in canon might perceive them physically.

As Nia described [& per others' posts on the issue [Ecthelion, Sone, Ilyeki], including my earlier posts on the essay reviews by Hermione], I felt that in OoP Harry and Hermione were shown to be very well matched re: intellectual capacity [intelligence], though Harry has rather much still to learn from Hermione regarding the sheer compilation, application, and organisation of academic knowledge. Hermione likewise has shown great aptitude under Harry’s guidance for defensive magic, but again still has much to learn [as does everyone, vis-à-vis Harry] from Harry in the application and practical usage of this knowledge.

And likewise, IMO, I don’t think the love or affection Harry and Hermione feel for one another is based on looks. Not that they don't find one another attractive; judging their behaviour toward one another, they feel extremely deep emotion toward one another. I would call it love, though Harry's emotions are still unexamined at the conscious level. And going on that assumption, of course they find one another attractive; love the soul [spirit], love the body. Moving on, I wanted to address what for me has always been a non-issue but is rather something I wanted to address after reading a ton of stuff from earlier when the new pics became available and so forth, whilst focusing only on the characters as they appear in canon.

[b]Harry and Hermione: How perceived outwardly by others, appearance-wise?

And how does this tie into their characters and their antihero status?[/b]

[*short* discussion follows, I promise...]

[b]1. Hermione[/b]
Judging by the reaction everyone else -- and not just Harry -- had to Hermione at the Yule Ball [they appeared to be struck by just how good she looked as well as that Krum was on her arm], I had assumed that it wasn’t about Hermione being plain or not. Rather it’s that Hermione isn’t interested in packaging herself under the current expectations of style and fashion. Apparently she is therefore considered attractive but chooses to emphasise not this but her intellect. And as has been said, many probably are initimidated by her intellect [though not Harry, interestingly]. Hermione is thus usually given credit for being attractive only when she signals that she is playing down her intellect and thus could be perceived as less intimidating to less secure persons.

In other words, Hermione is “given permission” to be considered attractive when she does what many other do, i.e., [i] when she bothers regarding her presentation. At that point, when she’s perceived as fulfilling social expectations for being “pretty” [the biggie for her is “doing” her hair, i.e., getting it “under control”, since these social expectations of “prettiness” are all about controlling your appearance such that it conforms to the passing fashion], suddenly it’s okay for everyone to recognise that Hermione might just be more or less DDG. However, in the main, Hermione cares rather less [or chooses to care less] what people think of her appearance and instead bases her self-esteem on her integrity, her character, [SPEW, loyalty, bravery] and her intellect. Day-to-day, Hermione’s about more important stuff and really could a fig if her hair is ratty or slick, rather preferring to let her character, integrity, and intellect shine. Hermione is definitely the anti-heroine, as well, and I absolutely love that, but for me this is because of her attitudes, her willingness to take stances against society’s expectations (re: SPEW, racism, prejudice…) on a variety of levels from the universal to the personal, including her refusal to let society "define" her or pass judgment on her -- whether regarding her muggleborn background, her appearance, or what have you.

[b]2. Harry
Same with Harry, who is described by Rita Skeeter [with his picture attached] as having a “charming” face, though one with a big lightning bolt scar on it, but anyway…shows character ;) Harry too has messy hair and tatty civvies [worn hand-me-downs], and overall is definitely not the well-groomed pretty boy or conventional hero type [a.k.a. Cedric, for all he was nice guy and that]. Note that Cho obviously likes him [and potentially several other girls do as well], so we can assume she and others finds him attractive on some level, both physically and as a person. However note the scathing comments from the Slytherin girls at Hogsmeade to Cho & Harry –- Harry would’ve been in civvies here -- and we can assume that their comments are attributable not only to meanspiritedness and interhouse competition, but also to the shallow appraisal of the fact that Harry’s not well-dressed and smoothly groomed -- we assume they know nothing of his bank account and why would they? Harry doesn’t make anything of it. [N.B.: Cho is embarrassed at the Slytherin comments; Hermione would never have been, but rather would have been angry and scornful of their attitudes].

Thus in the eyes of many like the Slytherin girls, Harry is unattractive not based on objective appearance but because of implicit class-based associations. Yes, Harry’s on the smaller side till OoP, when he’s no longer described as such, but nonetheless he’s always been extremely brave, a great athlete since Year 1, and whilst clearly extremely bright [even Voldy says, and he’s supposedly a magical genius], was thoroughly unmotivated academically till 5th year [thanks, Hermoine!], so he’s not exactly the stereotypical nerd either. But I agree strongly that Harry is a classic anti-hero in the best possible sense, per his suffering, his background and experience with neglect and abuse, his complexity, his compassion and intrinsic goodness on the one hand, his grittiness and his intensity on the other...[BTW I have a prior post on Harry and Vulcan, God of Fire [the original antihero] several pages back, which addresses Harry as antihero more fully].

So, in my book, it’s not so much about what the characters look like – for all intents and purposes, they seem to look just fine objectively – rather, it’s all about presentation and perception. And how it can work for or against them. And that it's how these two, Harry and Hermione, define themselves as persons in the face of implicit bias and stereotyping based on various social and class-based expectations. My admiration for these two characters, and my belief in their rightness together, is underscored by the fact that they each of them believe that standing up against intolerance and injustice, that standing up for their beliefs and their right to be accepted for who they are, are more important than whether or not they meet various prejudicial external social and class-based criteria for "attractiveness" and more general "success" in the world at large.

Cheers!

Mega

August 3rd, 2003, 9:39 pm

About the whole stabbing thing, Hermione is the kinda girl that would be upset even if it where one of her enemys.

Also could I take this oppertunity (sp) to do a shamless plug? Could some of you please read my fan-fic? I need some advice on it. Click Here (http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1400818) to read it. Theirs only two chapters up right now but I also have two more that I have not uploaded yet on my PC. PM me and please tell me what you think.

_BT_

August 3rd, 2003, 9:43 pm

Wow… this thread moves fast. 2-3 PAGES since I last posted just yesterday? Darn. Anyway, my reply to the hot topic on the thread right now:

Here is the long-awaited Five Stage Theory

I must ask for your patience as you read through, your thorough reading of it, because this is essentially my fundamental vision of Ron and Hermione's relationship and it is this upon which all posts I make are based one.

You could say, this is my very own R/Hr bible, and please respect the fact that I have put in A LOT OF EFFORT in it, and any mistakes/contradictions are the result of genuine hardworking and accidental omissions, and not twisting and dishonesty. I have tried my very best to make this AS FAIR AS possible, and I sincerely hope that you enjoy this.

first off, i would like say this is the most exhaustive description on hp romance i've read so far. congrats on what seems to be the most thorough analyzation of a harry potter romance pairing. Although I disagree with basically all of it, I highly commend and respect the effort you put into this :)

In the early books we see them as petty squabblers. More often than not provoking each other over minor points.

As they grow up a little we see these petty squabbles develop into deeper rifts, where neither will acknowledge the other for a period.

As adolescence and hormones dawn those deeper rifts evolve into arguments over personal boy/girl issues – very adolescent issues.

As they enter the second half of their teenage years they have a tendency to tone down their views and start to learn to accept each others differences.

With a few exceptions, they have done with the childish squabbling, with the pre-pubescent disagreements, with the adolescent arguments.

hmmm... i can see the basis of your hr/r argument. kinda like a han solo/leia situation from star wars: initial dislike develops into love. anyways i personally hope we don't see an end to the bickering between them. it keeps the dialogue interesting and is kinda trademark.

STAGE 1: Inauguration

Ron and Hermione, it appears, take a “disliking to each other” from the moment they meet. Hermione seems “snobby” as she points out that Ron has dirt on his nose, and seems very boastful afterwards. Her conduct towards Ron, and also Harry seems to be condescending, and Ron objects to this. He expresses dislike to Hermione. He wishes aloud that he is not in the same house as her, and visibly shows disappointment when she is. Ron and Hermione, who start off on a rocky basis, are forced together by the sorting hat. There is nothing they can do about it.

This continues throughout the Chamber of Secrets, and there is often pointless sniping and bickering. Notice JKR is so quick to clarify them as “opposites” or in other words, antagonists. So, early in the series, we get the impression of two very different people, who have different views and perspectives on life, who seemingly are going to be argumentative and allow that to play a significant role for the rest of their relationship.

agree with you up to this point. i think we can all agree that hr/r had some rocky beginnings, but have developed into a pretty firm friendship. i guess the question remains where it goes from there, if at all...

However, there are traces of underlying caring and concern for each other early on in the books- in that they have a fundamental friendship which is shrouded by their arguing. Those are often shown in “flashes” of caring.

Such examples of this are;

Hermione screaming and being anxious about Ron as he sacrifices himself during the chess match in PS/SS and Ron standing up for Hermione and cursing Malfoy in CoS. Those are reminders that at this moment in the series, Ron and Hermione ARE, however unlikely it may seem, good and caring friends.

Thus we get a general picture of two people, who argue constantly and have quite opposite personalities, but deep down, genuinely care for each other and have a fundamental friendship.

I don’t think any of us can dispute this, and this is not in any way to prove an R/Hr relationship. This merely is to prove the first part of their relationship progression correct, before we go to the other, more vital stages.

Therefore, we have a set routine of bickering between the two, right from the start. But we also have another side to R/Hr, which is not shown much. This is the caring, friendly and thoughtful side to both, which at the start of the series, is not expressed much.

ok fine. We have established that r/hr do care for each other at least on some level, and that the origins of their relationship were constant fighting. Well, once again, the question remains if this is going to develop into anything more or not.

STAGE TWO: Expansion

The trio enters the phase of puberty. We see that Harry starts noticing girls, and gets feelings at the bottom of his stomach. Surely Ron and Hermione will experience similar feelings, deep down too, as they enter puberty? We are not told of who they may have feelings for, all we are told, from the text, is that the volume of their arguing and bickering increases HUGELY. Ron and Hermione arguing more coincides with the start of puberty.

Now, I am not insinuating anything here. At this stage, there seems no apparent sign of feeling, so I will not assume that there is at the moment. But what I do notice is even bigger arguing between the pair.

The strange thing is, the material of their arguments is not that different from what the material was in through PS/SS to CoS. They argue even more, as they start puberty, over similar trivial stuff, leaving no apparent reason to their increased arguing.

Ron and Hermione can easily reach a compromise over their pets. But they don’t. Right from the start, Hermione’s pet takes a disliking to Ron’s pet. This continues throughout the year.

so an increase in the childish bickering. Plus it happens during puberty. I think whether you wanted to or not you are kinda insinuating something behind it. I personally think the bickering is nothing more than a natural evolution of the two character’s personalities, but I guess it could be argued that these are actually seeds for something more. I guess that’s later in your theory…

As the year progresses, we get more “flashes” of caring, for example Hagrid telling Ron that Hermione was very upset when Sirius tried to stab him. Hermione still cares a lot about Ron, despite the fact that the pair are at loggerheads throughout the year. Ron is kick-started into caring, showing Hermione that he cares, by helping out with Buckbeak. He says this with passion and fierceness. This clearly touches Hermione, who bursts into tears and hugs him.

Now, I am not insinuating anything here. I am merely saying that whilst we have escalated levels of vicious sniping for no proportional reason (bigger arguments should have bigger reasons), there remains a caring and thoughtful side hidden beneath that we learn of, which is becoming more sentimental.

ok, so their friendship becomes deeper. A natural turn of events after 2 years.

At the end of the year, Ron gets a new pet. It is Pig. Interestingly, the first thing he does is to go to Hermione’s pet, and seeks Crookshanks’s opinion of Pig. It is only when Crookshanks voices his hearty approval, (purring) that Ron accepts his pet.

Remember, at the start of the year, the pets of Ron and Hermione were at loggerheads. But at the end of the year, the pets are at harmony (pardon the pun) and they like each other. If the pets symbolised the karma/desire of Ron and Hermione, then POA was a big book, in terms of the changing feelings and desires of people as they enter puberty. In other words, the planting of the seeds.

STAGE 3: Culmination

The hormones start kicking in. As we know from Harry, feelings start developing and coming out in the open- i.e. conscious feeling. But we don’t know about Ron and Hermione’s feelings. Those feelings, to some degree, are kept hidden from us, to start with.

because they were not important, I’m sure

We finally start to glimpse Ron and Hermione’s possible adolescent feelings as the Yule Ball approaches. It is traditional for people to go to balls with “partners”. We see that Ron becomes increasingly interested about Hermione’s date for the ball, and half-denies that she could actually have one.
Eventually, in a sheer moment of panic, when he and Harry don’t have dates, the obvious suddenly becomes, well, obvious. Hermione is a girl. Ron then asks her to go with either Harry or Ron. Hermione refuses, because, she of course, is going with Krum. But Ron doesn’t know that.

but that’s just what it was, a sheer moment of panic—nothing more.

Ron is extremely curious as to who Hermione’s partner is. This is because he is displaying the first external hints of his deep down, emotional feelings for Hermione. Ron doesn’t even at this moment, properly realise his feelings for Hermione, but they are manifested in his probes into Hermione’s private life.

or maybe he’s just curious. I know if one my best friends had a mysterious date, I’d be naturally curious.

And then comes the Yule Brawl- a legendary moment between Ron and Hermione, in whichever way perceived, will change things between them forever.

Ron, at the sight of Krum with Hermione, is hit badly. His feelings for Hermione, which before this, have been slowly bubbling up, take a huge, sudden upsurge, fuelled by jealousy. Ron feels anger at Krum, and whilst he does not understand (not fully) the feelings himself, he makes up a mental excuse for these feelings, jealousy and anger. Ron’s subconscious feelings are surfacing, and whilst the conscious has not yet identified them, it shrouds those feelings over, in other words, denial.

you make a good point. But there’s nothing to really suggest what you’re saying is true in the books. I think that rather than ron having these hidden, subconscious feelings, he’s just a little taken back and surprised by seeing one of his best friends with one of his quidditch idols.

Hermione blushes hugely in her responses to Ron’s jibes, and is clearly uncomfortable about the whole situation. She is experiencing new emotions- emotions of embarrassment. Whilst there is nothing really indicated here, there are new and uncomfortable forays by Ron into Hermione’s private life. Hermione feels embarrassed and uncomfortable. R/Hr are now dealing with adolescent issues that previously were non-existent.

Cut to the huge argument. Now, JKR has us jump to only the closing stages of the argument. But from what can be gathered from those stages, at some point Ron confronted Hermione about the events that night. Ron, with his jealousy probably provokes Hermione into justifying herself/ her stance. A bit of to-and-fro-ing occurs, and Ron probably says that he doesn’t like it. Hermione, more shrewd at perceiving Ron’s feelings than Ron himself, suspects what Ron himself fails to recognise- that he may have feelings for her. She then tells him to NOT to ask her as a last resort NEXT time there’s a ball.

so ron is jealous. But that doesn’t necessarily mean he has any feelings. Nothing really conclusive here. He could be just feeling inferior to krum, or miffed that his friend could get a date before he did.

Now, I personally believe that this statement does not tell us much about Hermione’s feelings for Ron. But what is interesting is the choice of wording. Hermione does not cancel out the possibility of her accepting Ron as a partner for a ball.

I think that hermione is just a little ticked that ron is thinking of her as a ‘last resort’ deal. if some of my female friends asked me to a prom or something as a lastchance-last resort-we can't get anyone else thing, i'd probably feel kinda bad too

It would be entirely different, of course, had Hermione said this instead- “Well, if you don’t like it, you’ve got to respect people and not to ask them as a last resort, and not to ruin their nights, then!” This would leave no mention at a future event, no future possibility and no future hope.

I don’t know much about how the statement reveals about Hermione’s feelings at that time but it is a very interesting choice of wording, which leads me to believe that Hermione was hurt by Ron using her as a last resort. I mean this in that Hermione was hurt that Ron attempted at other girls, before falling back onto her, implying that Ron doesn’t think of her as a girl, but rather as a friend.

actually agree with you there, but I don’t think it’s that much deeper than the fact the hermione thought she might be inferior to other girls if ron asked her last.

I think the Yule Brawl had a significant impact on both. Hermione, in that she started to suspect that Ron had feelings for her, and subconsciously, examine what she felt at this, if it was true. Ron, in that he pondered the truth in Hermione’s statement, and thus began the slow process of examination of his own feelings for Hermione, consciously.

I don’t see how you make the connection between what hermione said and her “suspection of Ron’s feelings.” I think that in this moment hermione is not wondering if ron likes her or not, but why ron considered her less than the other girls (as far as asking goes)

Fleur Delacour. A wonderful, stunning girl. The main attributes that she has are her stunning and beautiful looks. Not to mention that she is also, to some extent, clever. (This is likely, because the Goblet judged her most worthy to be a champion.)

We are told (clearly) of Hermione’s dislike of Fleur. Is it possible that Hermione dislikes Fleur, because she possesses what Hermione doesn’t have- outstanding beauty? Quite so, especially as we learn of Hermione’s dislike of Veelas and the Veela connection to Fleur. It is also possible that Hermione, deep inside, is jealous of Fleur’s beauty AND knowledge, despite also having other reasons to dislike her.

i don't think it's jealousy. maybe instead, dislike for their 'improperness' and how every male seems to be drawn towards their flirty behavior.

So, when Fleur kisses Ron, this is immediately followed by a “reaction” by Hermione. This is a hugely vital point, so I will be painstakingly going over the quotes for this.

Ron is being hopeful that Fleur will kiss him. Fleur, in effect, makes Ron’s hopes come true. Ron is hoping that a very attractive girl will kiss him. And when his hopes are made true, we immediately see Hermione’s reaction, right after Fleur kissing Ron. It is arguable that this is a “continued reaction” from Harry’s kiss, but take a look at the following.

What I like the most about this quote is the use of the grammar and syntax. Note the sentence Fleur smiled at him; Hermione scowled. This is a very telling sentence, as it shows Hermione’s reaction as Fleur does something. It does not leave to speculation that it could have been a “continued reaction”. It is set in stone that this reaction happened as this happened. Fleur smiled at Ron, and Hermione scowled as she did this. Fact.

fine, but what exactly does the scowl mean though?

I am not saying for sure that Hermione scowled because Fleur smiled at Ron. It could be that Hermione was scowling at someone making fun at her at the same time. But I will interpret this as Hermione scowling because Fleur smiled, and because this correlates directly to the quote above, I will draw my conclusion that Hermione is jealous because she thinks that Ron is attracted to Fleur.

I guess it _could_ be interpreted that way, but I don’t think there really is enough in one word to be making conclusions. I mean, the scowl could’ve been for many reasons: general dislike of veelas, thinking it was improper, etc.

Now, Hermione is at the same stage as Ron was at the Yule Brawl- allowing subconscious feelings to surface and manipulate reactions to such. However, she is in denial to this, like Ron was earlier at the Yule Brawl- developing mental excuses. And also if there are signs of jealousy past the Yule Brawl, which if true, this has significant underlying ramifications for what Hermione said at the Yule Ball.

no hard evidence of this. Good speculation, and quite convincing, but still—not enough seen in the argument to be making conclusions. That and from what we did see, I deduced that hermione was just not feeling great about her friends considering her as a lesser girl than others.

All in all, GOF is a huge book in terms of growing adolescent feelings which surface and cause Ron and Hermione to act in certain ways, the culmination of this being the Yule Brawl, which has a significant impact on both Ron and Hermione and their feelings, and how they behave later on.

STAGE 4: Resolution

This stage obviously occurs in OOTP. Ron and Hermione are now 15. Ron and Hermione are very good friends, but seem to have suppressed the progression of feelings sparked off by the Yule Ball.

Hermione seems to be constantly struggling with this. Hermione's growing feelings for Ron are a somewhat of a "clash" against her logicality. Hermione likes everything to be "logical" and follow set rules and likes everything to be generally explainable. But love certainly does not fall under this category.

Hence she is split over this. Part is fighting/denying the illogical- the illogical being that she is having feelings for Ron, who has been her opposite argument partner for the past few years. This is why her feelings are taking so long to emerge from the subconscious, whilst Ron on the other hand is more willing (but not by much) to examine those feelings and deal with them consciously.

and you deduced this all from the continued bickering in book 5? JK may be subtle in leaving hints and clues here and there in the books, but I don’t think she’s _that_ subtle. You may be just grasping at thin air here.

One of the other parts is examining the illogical, and attempting to make sense of it- probing and exploring. Hermione is teetering. She still has her suspicions of Ron having feelings for her. Hermione has a problem here. She is very insecure about this sort of thing, as is proved by her blushing every time this subject is encroached.

pure speculation. Good speculation, but speculation nonetheless. All of hermione’s reactions and bickering in book 5 could just as easily be continued disagreements with ron and a natural difference in personalities.

Hermione, whom you would not expect to accept sexism, seems to accept the inherent sexism of the traditional view that it's the boy's responsibility to make the move. Hermione tells Ron to ask her before anyone else does next time there’s a ball regarding the Yule Brawl. This does not help. This confuses Hermione whilst she is feeling insecure, she wants something more of a sign by Ron. She wants a “confirmation”, no more, no less.

already covered that.

And at the same time she is examining the nature of her own feelings for Ron, who always argues with her. Part of her is still in denial and this frustration is outleted via the arguments, lashing out at Ron, as if it's his fault that she's falling in love with him. The frustration that "drives" the arguments is also coming from Hermione's helpless situation. She sees herself in a no-win situation, and finds it difficult to kick-start the relationship into romantic realms, due to her insecurity and fears.

or maybe she doesn’t kick start anything because she feels nothing. Hard to prove one way or another, since JKR doesn’t give much to look on in the books.

Hermione, deep down, wants Ron to help her out of this situation, she wants him to do something- i.e. ask her out which will give her a DIRECT reason to drag her feelings out in the open, and get it off her chest. In other words, she seeks the "confirmation" which will lay the path for her to escape this emotional turmoil.

if she wanted it that bad, I think she would do something about _herself_. I don’t think hermione would be one to wait for ron to make a move, if she was feeling anything. Hermione may be unexperienced in love but I don’t think she’s waiting around for a reason to talk about these feelings. If she had em, I think she’d bring em out herself.

Hermione is divided over this. However, part of her consciously realises that she has to make some move and do something about this. But this is, unfortunately countered by the other parts of her which still deny it and other parts which are frightened and insecure.

Assuming denial, this explanation would make sense. But I don’t think she’s in denial, I just think she doesn’t have feelings for ron.

Could the strength of Ron and Hermione's friendship be part of what's getting in the way of either one of them, especially Ron, 'making the next move'? In other words, does the fact that they're such good friends blur the lines a bit as far as their intentions with one another?

or the fact that they ARE just friends?

For example, Harry was aware from fairly early on that what he felt for Cho was of a romantic nature. He didn't want to just 'go hang out' with her or go chase the Snitch around for awhile on the pitch. He never once thought of her as 'one of the guys'. She was blushing and flirty most times that she encountered him unless she was with Cedric. Harry knew the distinction.

With Ron and Hermione, on the other hand, they already know each other so well. They've seen each other at their worst and at their best, both physically and emotionally. They've had huge arguments and managed to work their way through them without permanently damaging the relationship. They've made decisions together in life-threatening situations. They've obviously both vowed to protect Harry, as a team if necessary. They would die for one another. And this is all within the scope of their 'friendship'. It's got to be a little weird to go back now and tentatively ask the other if they want to do something or giggle and 'wonder if he's looking at me'.

hmmm good point

Ron has seen Hermione act much the same way with Harry as she does with him, and he knows Hermione and Harry are just friends (in spite of his momentary doubts: "How do you know?"--but you know he wouldn't have asked if he really thought there was something going on!) So even with Hermione giving signals to Ron that would ordinarily be construed as romantic,

like what signals?

short of telling Ron straight out that she likes him or snogging him breathless, he could technically interpret almost any signal as nothing more than her wanting to 'be just friends'. Hence, no 'next move' from Ron because he's afraid of being rebuffed or laughed at or both (in his mind he probably sees her laughing and saying, "You want to be what, Emotional-Range- of-a-Teaspoon? With me?”)

She's at the same disadvantage--many actions that would ordinarily be construed as part of a romantic relationship--spending lots of time together, discussing everything, bickering, always knowing that you automatically have a partner for the DA exercises or other classes,--are already part of their everyday relationship. So how does one tell, exactly, when the next move has been made and the tables turned--and even if it seems to be a move that's romantic in nature, was that the intent?

that’s exactly why I think if hermione did feel anything, she would outright say it. I don’t see her as a character to beat around the bush, so to speak.

Hermione kissed Ron on the cheek. This could be interpreted as a sign of encouragement from Hermione. If Ron’s feelings are significant, and that Hermione knows some of them, then why is Hermione kissing him? A gesture this affectionate is bound to give some encouragement to Ron, which if he makes a move, will make things more awkward if Hermione really doesn’t have any feelings for him. This is an example of the small, timid moves by Hermione, to attempt to provoke that “confirmation” that she wants so desperately. Hermione is thinking-

kisses on the cheek are not necessarily affectionate signs. It’s a common greeting in many countries, on the level with handshakes.

“If he does like me then he will interpret this as a move, and will respond with something bigger. If not, I could easily pass it off as a friendly gesture. After all, I did it to Harry last summer.”

But, unfortunately, Ron is hesitant before responding. Ron is more in the dark regarding Hermione’s feelings than she is to his. In fact, he does interpret the kiss in the way that Hermione doesn’t want him to. As a friendly gesture.

probably because that’s what it was

When an ample opportunity to encourage Ron arises (from our point of view), Hermione falters. Why?

Hermione didn't respond better to the perfume because she wasn't sure that it was a "move." Here she is waiting and waiting for a "move" and when it comes ... well, was it a move? Maybe he got cologne for Harry after all! Who knows?! Hermione could be totally scared to death that she's going to respond too positively to it and make it so obvious that she wants it to be a move, when in the end Ron will come back and say: "Perfume? I meant to get you Dungbombs, the perfume was supposed to be for my mother. The presents must have gotten switched."

or—ron _isn’t_ making a move, and maybe hermione’s construing the way it really is.

So, she goes for playing it cool: "And that perfume's really unusual, Ron."

Ron answers back just as casually: "No, problem .... Who's that for, anyway?"

Hermione is probably blessing her lucky stars that she didn't make a bigger deal of it. Remember, for all Hermione's insights into female mentality - she misses certain "girly" traits. This is an example of “Hermionesque”, not an example of “Parvatish”.

no real evidence of this from the quote. I think the exchange could’ve been one of just surprise that ron decided to give a gift unlike him.

This is a perfect example of Hermione's logical mind exploring/fathoming every situation and coming up for a possible explanation for it. And this is also a perfect example of their friendship blurring the “romantic” moves. And, unfortunately, this trait impedes R/Hr, instead of improving it. And this is another reason why I think Hermione wants something more- something like the "confirmation".

perfume is not necessarily a romantic move; I give it as a gift all the time. And once again if she really wanted this “confirmation,” she would do it herself.

If Ron confirms his feelings for her outright, Hermione cannot just stand there and think for a possible explanation for it- "Oh, he's mistaken me for Molly"- this is the stark truth, which is the much-needed catalyst for an otherwise frustrating stalemate.

I would also like to note that when I read the scene, the first thing that came to mind (apart from the romantic nature of the perfume) was the extreme casualness of the whole situation. It was so casual- the event barely registered a blip on either’s radar. This led me to examine further possibilities of as to why this could be, and I came up with the above, and this fits in perfectly with my overall interpretation of their relationship.

lol, barely registered a blip on my radar as well… :)

I think part of their problem in OOTP is that they are resisting a change in the 'status quo' of their strong, satisfying friendship whether consciously or unconsciously, by stalling on ‘moves’, being hesitant, and not taking the plunge for fear of what might happen if they are wrong. The other side is that they're already such a strong couple in all but the romantic that it's going to make it more difficult to recognize the first indications that the relationship is evolving into a romantic one. Although, once it starts, there'll be no stopping it because the two of them already have the most difficult parts of forming a strong and healthy relationship out of the way.

my main disagreeemnt stems from the fact that I don’t believe hermione would be one to resist change or not speak on manner she felt something about. When she has an strong opinion, she makes it known. I don’t think she’d be that much different on the romance manner.

One of the most significant parts in OOTP showing Hermione’s feelings as I have interpreted them so far and taking in mind what I have said so far is manifested in that quote. (no, you’re not).

Now I take this as Hermione being very, very patient at Harry’s apparent cluelessness. Harry is clueless, tactless and generally naïve about this area. This area is getting the girl that he wants.

Hermione is explaining patiently to Harry what he should have done. She is explaining without the merest trace of hesitancy to Harry that he should pretend Hermione Granger is really annoying and why he doesn’t want to be there to meet her. She is telling Harry to give his crush an impression that he doesn’t find Hermione interesting (at that moment.)

The critical point here is that Hermione said as an afterthought. Hermione, who has in the very previous sentence explained to Harry why he should give the crush the impression he doesn’t particularly find Hermione interesting, is adding something directly related to this. Hermione is on a train of thought. She is thinking about the very situation, and adding things as new things come to light in the conversation that could potentially be useful to the conversation.

Harry has just paid Hermione a compliment, if it can be interpreted that way. Directly relating this to the overall scheme of things, Harry is clearly not picking up on Hermione’s advice. He is bemused, as the canon states. Harry is still tactless and still clueless.

I think we can all agree on harry’s lack of knowledge in this department.

As I said before, these traits Harry shows are shown on a specific area. This area is getting the girl that he wants.

Harry has just displayed tactlessness and cluelessness on how to get the girl he wants. Hermione is still on that train of thought. As this occurs to Hermione, another thought occurs to her. A thought directly related to tactlessness and cluelessness on how to get a girl that is wanted.. That thought, unarguably, is Ron.

Hermione’s mind springs to Ron when she thinks of tactlessness and cluelessness on how to get a girl that is wanted. And who does Ron want, as almost universally agreed here? That girl happens to be Hermione.

In other words, Hermione is thinking- Ron is tactless and clueless when it comes to getting Hermione, if he has feelings for her. In other words, Ron is going about it in the wrong way and he is simply not picking up the clues, for example, the kiss (if it was intended the way I think it was.). If he, Ron, does indeed, like Hermione, then why isn’t he doing anything about it? He is not (in Hermione’s opinion) making it totally clear that he likes Hermione, and refusing to take it up to the next level. Hermione wants confirmation, and Ron is not giving it, despite indications that he may like Hermione. Ron is seemingly stuck in a stalemate, and only giving timid steps that are lost in the complication of their strong friendship- i.e. perfume and his compliments to her.

Harry is being tactless and clueless on how to get a girl that he wants. “Oh! He’s worse than Ron!” thinks Hermione.

you might be taking that out of context. I don’t think she’s thinking about how Ron is refusing to “make moves” with her. I think rather she’s just expressing how ron has a well-known general lack of knowledge in this area and also sometimes doesn’t know how to articulate his general feelings.

But, ironically, Ron walks in. Ron in the flesh. Ron who wants Hermione. Ron who is merely yards away from Hermione. Ron who is being muddy and grumpy, whilst in an ideal and romantic world should be walking to the girl of his dreams, smartly dressed with a bunch of flowers.

At this moment, Hermione wonders if Ron really does have feelings, in her despair. He doesn’t seem to be doing anything significant, not to the extent that, she, Hermione wants. And that is the confirmation.

Hermione retracts her statement, with a sigh, often a sign of despairing.

or, the sigh could just be expressing how clueless harry and/or ron sometimes are.

I found this very sad and depressing. It seems that nothing can go right, and every small attempt to break this deadlock during OOTP is blown out of the water.

However, as indicated by the name of this stage, this stage is about resolution. Hermione and Ron seek resolution to this deadlock- and in their opinion, even if the other doesn’t have feelings for them, this cannot go on. One good thing during this stage is the resolution to their basic connection, which so long ago, in the inauguration stage was established- their arguments.

Ron is maturing fast. Part of OOTP is about the accumulation of Ron's gradual maturation. In GOF, he thought Hermione was lying when she said she'd got a date for the ball, although thinking Hermione was lying could be a mental denial that she actually had someone other than him to cover his surfacing subconscious feelings. At the ball, he neglected Padma even more grossly than Harry neglected Parvati, and created a scene with Hermione and Krum. For the rest of the book he plagued her with remarks about "Vicky" and suspected him of being evil. By the end of GOF he'd matured to the point where he could overcome his animosity and ask Krum for an autograph, earning a little respect from Hermione (she smiled at this.). But he was still feeling desperately jealous, trying to see what Krum and Hermione were talking about.

good points all around. But like I said earlier, the jealousy could have stemmed from many different factors. We don’t know that jealousy=mad attraction, at least from what were given. Subconscious attraction? Maybe, but that is really hard to prove one way or another… it’s all speculation at that point.

Krum is mentioned twice in OotP. In the first scene he uses the name "Vicky" and she shows her boredom at the “continuation” of this “joke” ("ho, ho!"), but it's a brief scene, and as far as we can see it's the first time anything like this has happened for months. The second Krum scene is just after the Harry/Cho kiss, the infamous Post Kiss Analysis. Within the last few minutes Hermione has called Ron the most insensitive wart she's ever had the misfortune to meet, and said he has the emotional range of a teaspoon, yet on hearing she's writing a "novel" to Krum he doesn't explode, he says nothing, he just looks disgruntled. Not only is he vastly more mature than a year earlier, he's more mature than he was in OotP's first Krum scene a few weeks earlier. He also restrains himself and is generally more “diplomatic”.
Hermione is responding to this, and showing her “caring” attitude to Ron more, despite her huge internal struggles. The dialogue between them has changed, and I like one such example.

agreed. Ron showed is showing a new wave of maturity at that point. The disgruntled look could mean many different things though.

I found this excerpt to be particularly interesting because it appears that Hermione and Ron have switched roles. Ron is appealing to Hermione with logic (i.e., here's the objective reasoning showing why this is not a good idea), while Hermione seems to rely on the subjective (i.e., we can't break a promise to our friend; it's wrong to break a promise). Usually Hermione would argue with logic, while Ron would take the subjective/emotional track. I think this dialogue demonstrates that Ron and Hermione are maturing, realizing that issues can be approached from more than one perspective, or, at the very least, it shows that Hermione and Ron know each other well enough to know the arguments that will convince the other.

guess I agree there.

Also note how Ron gives his opinion "firmly", but then softens when Hermione indicates that she would be uncomfortable breaking her promise to Hagrid. He suggests a scenario in which Hermione would not have to break her promise. This also shows Ron's burgeoning emotional maturity. In the past, I believe Ron would have continued a tit-for-tat dialogue with Hermione indefinitely (e.g., "I won't break my promise." "You have to." "I won't." "You must.") That doesn't happen here. Instead, after a moment of reflection, Ron diffuses the situation by suggesting an alternative resolution. I don't believe Hermione has convinced him that she is right, because he did not retract his firmly stated position. However, neither does he maintain that Hermione must break her promise. It's almost as if he is sympathizing with her or comforting her, saying, "Let's hope you won't have to break your promise after all."

This has significant good bearings as his growing maturity will cause him to realise that he in fact, cannot continue in this stalemate. Thus, he may give in and take the risk, plunge into the relative unknown and give Hermione that “confirmation” that is wanted badly.

first off, I agree on the maturity level. You take the extra step and say that this maturity will lead to Ron’s realization that he wants hermione and has to break this “stalemate” of yours. This is the main point where you and I disagree. I don’t believe hermione is yearning for confirmation or she’d seek it herself. Secondly, while all the evidence you present is compelling, I’m still not really convinced that ron/hermione are experiencing any of these wild feelings. While the hints you’ve provided do sorta point in a r/hr manner… it’s still kinda circumstantial. The clues and such you’ve speculated on make a pretty good point, but in the end I still think a lot of what’s been given to us in the books can just as easily be taken as normal friend bickering/conversation caused by a natural difference in personalities. Hard to prove one way or another as JKR isn’t really that outward about this.

STAGE FIVE: Reconciliation

From now on, is total speculation. It may be that I am totally wrong, but my speculation is based on my intensive study of the previous four stages of the R/Hr relationship, and a measured guess at what would come next. I would expect that some sort of external circumstance that “pushes” things over the edge, and for the matured Ron, this is a bit too much. He will “confirm”. That, or a huge argument, which like the POA argument, will result in a reconciliation, and this time, their feelings will be dragged into the open, and there will be no hiding.

assuming there’s feelings to be had. I think maybe some futher exploration into this issue could be seen in book 6, but a full blown “confession” I doubt.

Speculation, but there are many, many ways in which Stage Five can occur. I would be not at all surprised if this is dragged over two books, because if you look at the difficulty facing R/Hr at the end of OOTP;

if, in fact, there _is_ something between the two (there’s only one person on this earth that really knows for sure), we can be certain it’ll take at least 2 books to develop.

Signing out,

An exhausted Avada

Ok, so in the end, your theory can be stated in a couple words: r/hr meet, friendship develops, r/hr have differences, r/hr mature --> feelings develop, feelings are hidden, stalemate develops, hermione wants confirmation, ron tries but can’t give it.

The main reason I disagreed with most of your points above is because the evidence you’ve give (and the speculations) seem to be for the most part, extrapolations on trivial points. I’m willing that concede that r/hr may have felt some fleeting feelings here and there—maybe. And we all know that there’s some definite chemistry between the two. However, up to this point, when I read the books, I’ve never really seriously considered r/hr. I guess when I read them, the moments you speak of came off to me as just friendly moments. Everyone’s got a different interpretation of what happened, I suppose, and it won’t be until the series is over till we all know for sure. But in any case, I think hermione is destined for _one_ of the two main male characters. At this point I’m thinking it’s going to be harry. Although Ron is still a likely possibility.

Once again, fine job on a well-written and interesting examination of the characters.

-BT

Hawk 92

August 3rd, 2003, 9:56 pm

AK

I notice that you have completely omitted my detailed analysis of the scenes, with analysis of the grammar and syntax, which are very telling. With the above paragraph in mind, I suggest you read them again

I submited a link as to keep the length down.

What??? After Valentine's day, I assumed that Cho had dumped Harry. Cho walked out of the cafe. Hermione was giving Harry advise on what he should have done, and advice on girls in general. Harry can then keep this in mind, and go to Cho, and regurgiate what Hermione said he should have done, albeit in the past tense, and all will be happy

In other words, Hermione is thinking- Ron is tactless and clueless when it comes to getting Hermione, if he has feelings for her. In other words, Ron is going about it in the wrong way and he is simply not picking up the clues, for example, the kiss (if it was intended the way I think it was.). If he, Ron, does indeed, like Hermione, then why isn’t he doing anything about it? He is not (in Hermione’s opinion) making it totally clear that he likes Hermione, and refusing to take it up to the next level. Hermione wants confirmation, and Ron is not giving it, despite indications that he may like Hermione

Now if your working on the assumption that Harry has been dumped aren't you contradicting yourself again. If that is the case then Hermione is telling Harry what he should have done to not lost Cho. So if the comparision is with Ron and the train of thought is also along those lines then Ron has lost any chance with Hermione. Unless you could point out at what point it becomes Harry has lost Cho.

May I point out that H/Hr have done the exact same thing, about Hermione's "feelings" when she gives advice to Cho- her subconscious feelings don't stop her from giving advice to Harry about Cho, or encouraging him, but when the kiss happens, this forces her to examine her subconscious feelings, influencing her actions in the PKA. If H/Hr do this, I think R/Hr are entitled to play the same card. Sorry, but that's being fair.

I have never played that card so I can dispute your theory. If I have tell me what post I played that card in.

The thing is the word "as". Thanks to my word processor, the synonyms are (first three) "because", "since", "seeing that". I rest my case. You would do well to keep this in mind when you re-read the Fleur analysis.

Another omission,

As
1. conj at the time that: used to indicate that something happens at the same time as something else

Syn. while, when, during, whilst

used in a sentence

A woman stands near the water’s edge as two large golden retrievers frolic in the river.

I have a computer with a Thesaurus and Dictionary as well. :)

Cheers!

Elric

August 3rd, 2003, 10:09 pm

Is it just me or is anyone else slightly surprised that most of the events on Valentines day are a Ron free zone. Now I know why Ron wasn't there, he was at Quidditch practice, but it seems that a good opportunity to give more steam to the R/Hr ship if Ron had been at the Three Broomsticks with Hermione, and to R/L as well although JKR would have had to be clairvoyant to predict that ship, was missed.

Instead we're left with a H/C situation that begins to go disastrously wrong as soon as the door to Mrs Puddifoots coffee shop is opened.

This is then counterpointed by a successful H/Hr situation, in which Hermione needs to have arranged to meet and interact with someone she loathes, Rita Skeeter, and someone she's ambivalent about, Luna.

All of this for the express purpose of helping Harry, i.e. getting his story out so that people might not think he's an attention seeking lunatic. This complicated arrangement is of no direct benefit to Hermione herself, the only 'payoff' as such is that she helps Harry and maybe reduces the burden on him a little.

_BT_

August 3rd, 2003, 10:11 pm

And likewise, IMO, I don’t think the love or affection Harry and Hermione feel for one another is based on looks. Not that they don't find one another attractive; judging their behaviour toward one another, they feel extremely deep emotion toward one another. I would call it love, though Harry's emotions are still unexamined at the conscious level. And going on that assumption, of course they find one another attractive; love the soul [spirit], love the body.

highly agree. i think harry and hermione share one of the most, if not the most, deepest relationships in the books. a high amount of not only respect, but emotion for each other that has nothing to really do with physical attraction.

And as has been said, many probably are initimidated by her intellect [though not Harry, interestingly].

word. didn't even think of this

Is it just me or is anyone else slightly surprised that most of the events on Valentines day are a Ron free zone. Now I know why Ron wasn't there, he was at Quidditch practice, but it seems that a good opportunity to give more steam to the R/Hr ship if Ron had been at the Three Broomsticks with Hermione, and to R/L as well although JKR would have had to be clairvoyant to predict that ship, was missed.

interesting. of course, this could just be unintentional on jkr's part... but it does make ya think...

AvadaKedavra

August 3rd, 2003, 10:32 pm

Hawk

Now Hermione dislikes Fleur for her treatment of her school and her headmaster before she knows that she is a Veela. Harry doesn't confirm this until after the weighing of the wands.

From the World Cup, we know that Hermione dislikes the Veela, because of their beauty and their ease to have an effect on males. Fleur displays the exact same traits, is described vividly, Ron has a very obvious reaction, Hermione displays exsperation. Ron says she is a Veela, Hermione rubbishes this but is proved wrong by the other reactions. Hermione generally displays a negative reaction to the Veela traits, regardless if she knew for sure or not.

Moving on.

Anything that you omit is because it takes away from your theory and thus proves that your theory cannot stand against the text. Simply put it is in there for a reason. But you omit what you want.

I will explain why I omitted it. I omitted it because I didn't even think of it in the first place. I omitted it "accidentally" not purposefully. But now that you bring it to light, and say this is why my theory doesn't stand, I realise it's not even a point. By my theory, Hermione has "no conscious feelings" for Ron at this point. Allow me to explain this by reposting what I said.

Now, if it's clear that Hermione is only subconsciously examining her feelings at the possibility of Ron's feelings, and this does not have in any way an effect on the conscious behaviour, apart from occassional surfacing at stimuli-i.e. Fleur, and this means she does not outrightly have feelings for Ron at this stage,

Now, if she does indeed have no "conscious feelings" then still seeing Krum would have no significance at all. She could continue to see him, but yet at moments when stimuli are presented, show any kind of indication of what may be going on deep down, subconsciously, the examination of what she feels at the possibility of Ron's feelings. That is why this is not important.

Next.

And Harry.

*groans.

I used two examples of reaction from Hermione. Could they be interpreted because of Harry?

The first one, yeah, could be. The second one, no. Canon evidence is given. And because of this, I draw the conclusion that they are related, and on both instances the aggravating factor was Ron.

Read the analysis carefully and objectively, please. Here it is again.

...........................................
So, when Fleur kisses Ron, this is immediately followed by a “reaction” by Hermione. This is a hugely vital point, so I will be painstakingly going over the quotes for this.

"Fleur then said to Ron, 'And you too— you `elped—' 'Yeah,' said Ron, looking extremely hopeful, 'yeah, a bit—' Fleur swooped down on him too and kissed him. Hermione looked simply furious."

Ron is being hopeful that Fleur will kiss him. Fleur, in effect, makes Ron’s hopes come true. Ron is hoping that a very attractive girl will kiss him. And when his hopes are made true, we immediately see Hermione’s reaction, right after Fleur kissing Ron. It is arguable that this is a “continued reaction” from Harry’s kiss, but take a look at the following.

"'It's very good already,' said Ron in a strangled sort of voice. Fleur smiled at him; Hermione scowled."

What I like the most about this quote is the use of the grammar and syntax. Note the sentence Fleur smiled at him; Hermione scowled. This is a very telling sentence, as it shows Hermione’s reaction as Fleur does something. It does not leave to speculation that it could have been a “continued reaction”. It is set in stone that this reaction happened as this happened. Fleur smiled at Ron, and Hermione scowled as she did this. Fact.

I am not saying for sure that Hermione scowled because Fleur smiled at Ron. It could be that Hermione was scowling at someone making fun at her at the same time. But I will interpret this as Hermione scowling because Fleur smiled, and because this correlates directly to the quote above, I will draw my conclusion that Hermione is jealous because she thinks that Ron is attracted to Fleur.
.............................................................

I need not to remind you the synonyms of "as".

Next.

So Ron either needs to get a new and different type of personality

I don't understand still. Ron's fate and destiny has been *changed*. Ron has not changed. In other words, POA was important in that Ron and Hermione's fates and destiny's became united. The seed has been planted, and the seed does not appreciate being pulled out. :D

I've pointed out that I haven't "intentionally" omitted anything. I've pointed out, as per se with my theory, the Krum/Hermione dating thing bears no relevance because Hermione was not having "feelings" outright for Ron while she saw Krum.

Now, I'd be willing to accept your rebuttal like BT's and FP's that my theory is based on my interpretations of events. But this means it still stands and is valid. I am not claiming victory in any sense, and IMO, if Ron is not the boy for Hermione, then it certainly will be Harry. :D

Inter-ship unity? :lol:

I would like to thank all of the people, especially the H/Hr shippers who have given their praises and applause at my theory. I am not worthy...

Signing out,

Avada

P.S Evaluna, as you may remember, we had a conversation about star sign match ups- well I admitted that this was a load of rubbish even though it looked favourable for R/Hr. So no need to discredit the match ups. I think it is JKR showing her distate for Divination, as is shown in the books. :D

EDIT

If that is the case then Hermione is telling Harry what he should have done to not lost Cho. So if the comparision is with Ron and the train of thought is also along those lines then Ron has lost any chance with Hermione. Unless you could point out at what point it becomes Harry has lost Cho.

Cho dumped Harry *IMO*, in the Valentine's day fiasco. But I don't know if Hermione is of the opinion that Cho dumped Harry. What I do know though is, Hermione is telling Harry what he should have done. Hermione is telling Harry information about Cho's thinking. Harry can then use this information to go to Cho and fix things. But he doesn't seem to be getting it. He doesn't seem to be displaying shrewdness and tactfullness.

Hermione despairs, because Harry displays tactlessness and cluelessness on how to get the girl he wants. He does not display the necessary shrewdness and tactfullness to get her- because Cho is not his girl, at this moment. But if he did understood the advice she was giving him, then he could get Cho, the girl he wants.

In fact, the Yule Brawl is a parallel (in terms of mess up) to the Valentine's day Fiasco. So when Hermione is on this train of thought, she thinks he is worse than Ron at getting the girl he wants.

No contradiction.

As for the "as" (pardon my pun)- :D

Nice bit there. This is JKR at her cleverest. JKR carefully chooses her choice of words. H/Hr will see the "while/during" part, and R/Hr will see the "because" part. I give all respect to JKR. WOW.

David rolled his eyes, as Joseph continued telling everyone who would listen that he'd invented a broomstick that'd reach jupiter.

As I said, it's a matter of interpretation. My theory however, is valid.

Turambar

August 3rd, 2003, 10:41 pm

Nice post Evaluna.
One of the things I liked about OOTP was the way Hermione went about things her own way, even when it meant opposing what Harry wanted or upsetting him despite her awareness of her feelings for him. For instance I love the scene in the DA class where she interrupts Harry to officially make him leader while Cho takes the more typical line with him.

_BT_

August 3rd, 2003, 11:08 pm

From the World Cup, we know that Hermione dislikes the Veela, because of their beauty and their ease to have an effect on males. Fleur displays the exact same traits, is described vividly, Ron has a very obvious reaction, Hermione displays exsperation. Ron says she is a Veela, Hermione rubbishes this but is proved wrong by the other reactions. Hermione generally displays a negative reaction to the Veela traits, regardless if she knew for sure or not.

her dislike for the veela could be for a number of reasons, since jkr really never says. i do agree with you on that the dislike could be because of the effect on males but i don't think it has anything to do with beauty. hermione doesn't really care too much about whether someone looks better than her or not, or she'd spend a lot of time on her looks (a la yule ball) every day. i don't see any jealousy here

i do agree that hemione displays negative reactions to veela traits, and that was what was going on with fleur

Now, I'd be willing to accept your rebuttal like BT's and FP's that my theory is based on my interpretations of events. But this means it still stands and is valid. I am not claiming victory in any sense, and IMO, if Ron is not the boy for Hermione, then it certainly will be Harry

i do believe your theory is valid. while i do, of course, disagree with your interpretation of events, i see no inner-contradiction and it still holds up as one explanation of behaviors in the book

Hawk 92

August 3rd, 2003, 11:16 pm

AK

Now, I'd be willing to accept your rebuttal like BT's and FP's that my theory is based on my interpretations of events. But this means it still stands and is valid. I am not claiming victory in any sense, and IMO, if Ron is not the boy for Hermione, then it certainly will be Harry

Sure a theory is a theory after all and only one thing can prove or disprove a theory. But since this is a debate thread I will offer rebuttals yet again.

From the World Cup, we know that Hermione dislikes the Veela, because of their beauty and their ease to have an effect on males. Fleur displays the exact same traits, is described vividly, Ron has a very obvious reaction, Hermione displays exsperation. Ron says she is a Veela, Hermione rubbishes this but is proved wrong by the other reactions. Hermione generally displays a negative reaction to the Veela traits, regardless if she knew for sure or not.

Actually Hermione shows a dislike for the superficiality that the boys show towards the Veelas. Treating them as objects to be goggled at. She never in the text says anything about the veelas. But it all comes down to this I gave you text in my rebuttals and you gave me speculation in return. See what I mean. ;)

I will explain why I omitted it. I omitted it because I didn't even think of it in the first place. I omitted it "accidentally" not purposefully. But now that you bring it to light, and say this is why my theory doesn't stand, I realise it's not even a point. By my theory, Hermione has "no conscious feelings" for Ron at this point. Allow me to explain this by reposting what I said.

Now, if it's clear that Hermione is only subconsciously examining her feelings at the possibility of Ron's feelings, and this does not have in any way an effect on the conscious behaviour, apart from occassional surfacing at stimuli-i.e. Fleur, and this means she does not outrightly have feelings for Ron at this stage,

Now, if she does indeed have no "conscious feelings" then still seeing Krum would have no significance at all. She could continue to see him, but yet at moments when stimuli are presented, show any kind of indication of what may be going on deep down, subconsciously, the examination of what she feels at the possibility of Ron's feelings. That is why this is not important.

So when does this moment of stimuli happen between the fight after the Yule Ball and the end of Gof? When does Hermione become aware? Text please.

BTW you said that you omited it after I pointed it out.

I am not saying for sure that Hermione scowled because Fleur smiled at Ron. It could be that Hermione was scowling at someone making fun at her at the same time. But I will interpret this as Hermione scowling because Fleur smiled, and because this correlates directly to the quote above, I will draw my conclusion that Hermione is jealous because she thinks that Ron is attracted to Fleur.

Or because Ron accuses Hermione of fraternizing with the enemy and then goes on and does the same thing himself without a care in the world. Not to mention the fact that Ron is flirting with a girl who has been scornful of Hogwarts (very important to Hermione) and Dumbledore (who Hermione respects).

Now why does JKR give us this link? Why establish in the text that Hermione doesn't like Fleur for her actions and attitude before all of this happens? It's in the text I haven't had to add anything to come up with this interpetation. How is any of Hermione's reactions to Ron/Fleur hightened in any way?

I don't think that anyone has to think that Ron was attracted to Fleur. Everyone knew it.

The second one, no.

Fleur didn't kiss Harry in the second one?

Note the sentence Fleur smiled at him; Hermione scowled. This is a very telling sentence, as it shows Hermione’s reaction as Fleur does something. It does not leave to speculation that it could have been a “continued reaction”. It is set in stone that this reaction happened as this happened. Fleur smiled at Ron, and Hermione scowled as she did this. Fact.

How is this a fact? You can't prove when the scowl started.

I need not to remind you the synonyms of "as".

I have posted mine and used it in a sentence as well. When does one substitute as for at by the way?

I smiled at her. I smile as her
I threw the ball at him. I threw the ball as him.

But once again I offered my syn.

I don't understand still. Ron's fate and destiny has been *changed*. Ron has not changed. In other words, POA was important in that Ron and Hermione's fates and destiny's became united. The seed has been planted, and the seed does not appreciate being pulled out.

One last time Ron's pets:
rat/owl not the same. second hand/new not the same.
Hermione's pet
Cat/cat same new/ new same.
Matthew 13:6

Cheers!

AvadaKedavra

August 3rd, 2003, 11:49 pm

Hawk

So when does this moment of stimuli happen between the fight after the Yule Ball and the end of Gof? When does Hermione become aware? Text please.

The two examples of Fleur reactions. Text already provided. Everything already explained.

BTW you said that you omited it after I pointed it out.

And? I omitted it originally by accident. But when you pointed it out, I realised that it wasn't a necessary inclusion, as per se, because according to my interpretation of things, Hermione still seeing Krum would have no significant meanings. I can't explain something that doesn't need explaining.

Fleur didn't kiss Harry in the second one?

No. She kissed neither. She came to Harry to thank him for everything etc, and then Ron jumped in, giving his praise, provoking a reaction from Hermione.

How is this a fact? You can't prove when the scowl started.

Second misinterpretation of the night.

Fact! This is an extract from a website, called "Punctuation made simple".

This explains thoroughly the use of the "semicolon" as there is one in the sentence "Fleur smiled;Hermione scowled".

READ CAREFULLY

(START OF EXTRACT)
..............................................

The semicolon is most often used to connect two sentences. Obviously, the sentences ought to be relatively close in content, but other than that you can connect any two sentences with a semicolon.

As a communicator, you are always putting together complex items in your prose and showing how they relate to one another. A semicolon is an economical way to join two sentences, and therefore two ideas, so that your reader sees the relationship. For example, you may write any of the following sentences:

Jim is a good typist; he makes few mistakes.

The AFC Corporation is an excellent company to invest in; its investments have risen sharply and steadily over each of the last ten years.

Ms. Sanchez is a successful real estate salesperson; however, she was unable to sell her own house.

Each of the three examples above contains two sentences glued together by a semicolon. The second part of each sentence makes a comment on the first. Certainly, each sentence could be written as two sentences, but you wouldn’t be expressing the close relationship between the two parts that you do when you use a semicolon. With two separate sentences, the reader must stop at the period of the first sentence and then begin to read the second; with two sentences connected by a semicolon, the reader does not come to a full stop and, therefore, the relationship seems that much closer. Also, this type of sentence allows you to express your ideas economically.

............................................................

(END OF EXTRACT)

Pure, unarguable fact.

Here is the address in case you think this is in any way fabricated or tampered with.

http://www.stpt.usf.edu/pms/semicolon.html

One last time Ron's pets:
rat/owl not the same. second hand/new not the same.
Hermione's pet
Cat/cat same new/ new same.

And? If this can be symbolised as Karma, it shows that Ron's Karma has changed significantly, and it is now united with Hermione's Karma. I never said in my essay that both changed.

I think the signifcant change was *symbolised* in that re-concilation. Ron did something that changed his future/his destiny. Ron did something for Hermione. And this is backed up by the uniting of the pets, and in fact, I've realised that this is such good piece of theory that I'm changing the essay slightly to expand upon this.

Signing out,

Avada

Dreamprincess288

August 3rd, 2003, 11:55 pm

sone

August 4th, 2003, 12:08 am

But Harry would not of been there in the first place if it wasn't for Hermione.

Hawk 92

August 4th, 2003, 12:12 am

OK first off a big thanks to all for the Welcome back on board HMS Harmony. But you can stop the 00 stuff. The MI6 Division is disbanded. I’m starting a new order. The Jedi Knights of Pumpkins Army.. All one has to do is to take the oath of The Knights of Pumpkins Army and build a lightsaber. Yes Mars you can have a pink one.

Now back on topic,

AK

The two examples of Fleur reactions. Text already provided. Everything already explained.

But Hermione is still seeing Krum at this time. So how can you omit it?

No. She kissed neither. She came to Harry to thank him for everything etc, and then Ron jumped in, giving his praise, provoking a reaction from Hermione.

Gof Ch 26 The Second Task pg 506
Fleur bent down, kissed Harry twice on each cheek
<Snip>
Fleur swooped down on him(Ron) too and kissed him.

Fact! This is an extract from a website, called "Punctuation made simple".

READ CAREFULLY

Happy too.

with two sentences connected by a semicolon, the reader does not come to a full stop and, therefore, the relationship seems that much closer.

Hawk stresses the word seems. Red Herring anyone? ;)

And? If this can be symbolised as Karma, it shows that Ron's Karma has changed significantly, and it is now united with Hermione's Karma. I never said in my essay that both changed.I think the signifcant change was *symbolised* in that re-concilation. Ron did something that changed his future/his destiny. Ron did something for Hermione. And this is backed up by the uniting of the pets, and in fact, I've realised that this is such good piece of theory that I'm changing the essay slightly to expand upon this.

It will be interesting to say the least to see more Pig/Crookshanks interaction. Now given the fact that they fight again in Gof how did Ron's karma change again? What is the karmic reaction for his accusations in Gof? Given that Ron didn't trust Crookshanks in PoA and then he didn't trust Hermione in Gof what does that mean?

But I'm a little confused right now? When did Ron realize that he liked Hermione?

Well AK I think it all comes down to how we view theories.

To me they are text+specualtion=Theories

But as much as I hate to say it I think that we have reached the old agree to disagree stage.

Cheers!

GryffindorGal

August 4th, 2003, 12:12 am

That's true but at the same time Ginny is the same way with Harry, like when she confronted him about being possesed by Voldemort.

Spunky. Too bad she was wrong.

Hawk 92

August 4th, 2003, 12:30 am

Heres the oath for the Jedi Knights of Pumpkins Army,

I am a member of the Jedi Knights of Pumpkins Army

I believe,

That Pigs can fly
That the greatest thing you’ll ever learn
is just to love
and be loved in return
that it is my choices that make me who I am

I swear,

To defend the HMS Harmony
without considering the cost
to the best of my abilities
to accept no monetary recompense for defending her
to never leave a comrade behind
complete solidarity and loyalty to HMS Harmony and her crew

We are the Jedi Knights of Pumpkins Army

We believe in
love over hate
courage over fear
right over easy

We are the Jedi Knights of Pumpkins Army
We die on our feet rather than live on our knees

Cheers!

Fairydust

August 4th, 2003, 12:41 am

Mad Eye Mike

August 4th, 2003, 12:45 am

:rotfl: :lol: @ Hawk's oath.

I have something to post, but it'll be much later as I'm busy now.

AvadaKedavra

August 4th, 2003, 12:45 am

Hawk

But as much as I hate to say it I think that we have reached the old agree to disagree stage.

I agree to disagree. (There is no shame in this.) I am proud that my theory stood up to the heated scruntiny of most celebrated and skilful debater, Jedi Knight Hawk, captain of the HMS Harmony.

Just a few things to add/clear up, before we move onto new horizions.

Gof Ch 26 The Second Task pg 506
Fleur bent down, kissed Harry twice on each cheek
<Snip>
Fleur swooped down on him(Ron) too and kissed him.

That's the first one. The second "reaction" instance is at the end of the year, when it's time to say goodbye. I'm sure you can find it.

then he didn't trust Hermione in Gof what does that mean?

We all know that Ron was using a "mental excuse"- accusing Hermione of fraternising with the enemy. I included this in my essay. He was subconsciously covering up his growing feelings for Hermione. He knew deep down all the time what he was saying was utter rubbish.

But Hermione is still seeing Krum at this time. So how can you omit it?

I have reiterated zillions of times that post-Yule Brawl Hermione is examining what she feels to her suspicions that Ron likes her subconsciously. She however, has no feelings for Ron, consciously- in that she "thinks" "I like Ronald Weasley." So off she goes to Krum, not having a problem with him.

However, at those Fleur instances, the stimuli is there. It stimulates her subconscious examination of her feelings at the possibility that Ron likes her. A reaction surfaces. It is a jealous/furious reaction. This gives us a *good* indication at feelings what this subconscious examination of her feelings at the possibility that Ron likes her, is producing. I know you won't agree, and I don't expect you to but this is why Hermione displays a reaction whilst still with Krum, and why I omit this.

Hawk stresses the word seems. Red Herring anyone?

:rotfl: You're clutching at straws here! OK, I'll let you get away with that one, but because I have done so, I will reserve the right to declare any possible H/Hr moment a red herring. Such as the "krum-telling-harry-that-hermione-talks-about-him-a-lot".

When did Ron realize that he liked Hermione?

Subconsiously, it was the approach to the Yule Ball. Post-Yule Ball, he stopped using mental excuses and started accepting it.

I'd like to offer my apology in my incorrect thinking that you played the "subconscious-cho-kiss-conscious" card. It was Sirius83. I apologise, for the distinction between such fine and celebrated H/Hr debaters is thin, and it is difficult to remember who said what. (I find that often with H/Hr mistaking me and Davydee :D)

And with that, the debate draws to a close.

GryffindorGal

Maybe you missed it, but I remember a few days back expressing my anger and my frustration at the "continued" mock up of my sigs. In that post, I said that I understood the "joke" the first time around, but when it continues it can get a little disrepectful. Not only to me, but also to the artist that drew that picture. She is an avid R/Hr shipper, and if she saw the way in which her pictures have been descrated in order to be manipulated, she would be very dismayed. In my original post, I requested all those who had the "mock up" signature to kindly please remove it, stopping the joke. Mad Eye and Ecthelion and others (can't remember who) respectfully complied.

You might've overlooked it the first time around, but please read this. I, of course, have no power over you, but this is a request.

I'm sure that there are zillions of talented H/Hr artists out there who would be more than happy to provide their art for a signature, instead of pinching other pieces of art, which were intended to portray something, manipulating them, so that the original message is not portrayed.

Thanks in advance.

Signing out,

Avada

EDIT

Most admirable sentiments, Hawk. :clap: on a good oath.

Hawk 92

August 4th, 2003, 12:46 am

This post really has nothing to do with ships debating but anyhoo. You all know that after the books are done and either of our ships are proven the Harmony or Heron might have to eat crow. Now that's what sucks.

I agree here Fairydust. Sometimes I think that JKR will play the ultimate prank on us and have Hermione end up with Krum so we're all sitting here go :censored:

:lol:

But after the last book I was wondering myself if we'd get some kind of victory thread and would the opposing ships offer congratulations to the winning ship. :D

Who knows?

Cheers!

BabyMars

August 4th, 2003, 12:48 am

Welcome back Hawk 92!! My Pink light saber is out and ready for action. :D

Cheers to you! *smooch*

AvadaKedavra

August 4th, 2003, 12:57 am

:rotfl:

Or like Flying Phoenix said, have Harry start feelings for Hermione, and then kill Hermione off. leaving us in the dark to who she ever did love. That's even worse than Krum. :lol:

A victory thread? Sounds like a good idea, but you'd have to tread very carefully, as not to let a full scale riot to break loose, with a lot of expletives, and plenty of bannings. It'd be the first thread watched 24/7 by the mods. :lol:

Signing out,

Avada

Turambar

August 4th, 2003, 12:58 am

:tu: Nice one Jedi Hawk.

Fairydust

August 4th, 2003, 12:59 am

It's amazing really, so many people are so invested into their couples that it would be pretty sad if they didn't get their way. :shrug:

BabyMars

August 4th, 2003, 1:04 am

It's amazing really, so many people are so invested into their couples that it would be pretty sad if they didn't get their way. :shrug:

I agree with you there, Fairydust.

crazyforharry

August 4th, 2003, 1:05 am

yay-i am so proud to say that i have officially become a hms harmony-aurors division member! go harry and hermione. you just got to love them! great posts guys!

AvadaKedavra

August 4th, 2003, 1:09 am

Still, it's fun to invest yourself in a couple, debate and theorize. It passes the time/wait for No.6 and is in many ways, a hobby.

noddwyd

August 4th, 2003, 1:12 am

Actually, Fairydust, I think it would be very entertaining to see some of the ships I'm against, especially R/Hr because imo, they would attempt to murder each other after about five minutes. But for some it is very important and I mean no disrespect to anybody.

Hawk 92

August 4th, 2003, 1:15 am

Welcome back Hawk 92!! My Pink light saber is out and ready for action.

Cheers to you! *smooch*

Hawk returns Jedi Mar's smooch. ;)

Had to do it huh AK

Well lets go again,

I agree to disagree. (There is no shame in this.) I am proud that my theory stood up to the heated scruntiny of most celebrated and skilful debater, Jedi Knight Hawk, captain of the HMS Harmony.

1) I'm not the captain of HMS Harmony.
2) Your theory did not stand up to the scrutiny of Flyphoenix or the others
3) I have presented my rebuttals from the text and you have stated that your theory is based on interpetation. In short your theory can only be proved or disproved based on Hr/R happening.
4) Since you keep saying that its your interpetation of the events we are now entering the realm of arguing. I have presented my counter arguements and don't want to argue. This is professional and nothing more
5) I'm not the Harmony's most celebrated and skillfull debater, Turambar, Mars, FlyingPhoenix, and the others are better than I.

Just a few things to add/clear up, before we move onto new horizions.

I think that we should.

That's the first one. The second "reaction" instance is at the end of the year, when it's time to say goodbye. I'm sure you can find it.

Yes. I also noticed that. I also noticed that you cannot prove one way or the other if Hermione is seeing Krum on a platonic or romantic level. So Krum and Hermione still stand and their relationship in Gof still counts. And how do you explain away the kiss at the end of Gof? If as you claim its the point where Hermione realizes her subconscious feelings.

We all know that Ron was using a "mental excuse"- accusing Hermione of fraternising with the enemy. I included this in my essay. He was subconsciously covering up his growing feelings for Hermione. He knew deep down all the time what he was saying was utter rubbish

Or simply as others have pointed out Ron was jealous for other reasons. Perhaps if there was something besides Ron saying that Hermione is a girl and getting perfume to look at. Text only please. Oh and we've already done the whole Krum thing so something new.

However, at those Fleur instances, the stimuli is there. It stimulates her subconscious examination of her feelings at the possibility that Ron likes her. A reaction surfaces. It is a jealous/furious reaction. This gives us a *good* indication at feelings what this subconscious examination of her feelings at the possibility that Ron likes her, is producing. I know you won't agree, and I don't expect you to but this is why Hermione displays a reaction whilst still with Krum, and why I omit this.

Buy your own theory you prove H/Hr. For after Hermione realizes her subconscious feelings, by your theory the talk with Krum, she kisses Harry. After feeling something she has never felt before she does something that she has never done before and kisses the man she realizes that she loves. Thank you AK.

You're clutching at straws here! OK, I'll let you get away with that one, but because I have done so, I will reserve the right to declare any possible H/Hr moment a red herring. Such as the "krum-telling-harry-that-hermione-talks-about-him-a-lot".

Nope. It was from your own post. And you can claim that the Krum thing is a red herring all you want because if you look at the text its a simple question. Nothing there to indicate a red herring in any way. But you claim that card all you want. And there's no need to let me get away with anything. You haven't proven anything but this is how you interpet the text.

Subconsiously, it was the approach to the Yule Ball. Post-Yule Ball, he stopped using mental excuses and started accepting it.

Like when he accused Hermione of brewing love potions. And what else did he do to examine or to let Hermione know that his feelings had changed? Wasn't he still flirting with Fleur after the Yule Ball and Padma Patail as well I believe. Fleur you can claim the Veela thing but what about his flirting with Padma?

I'd like to offer my apology in my incorrect thinking that you played the "subconscious-cho-kiss-conscious" card. It was Sirius83. I apologise, for the distinction between such fine and celebrated H/Hr debaters is thin, and it is difficult to remember who said what. (I find that often with H/Hr mistaking me and Davydee )

Know your opponet and yourself.

Cheers!

GryffindorGal

August 4th, 2003, 1:16 am

yay-i am so proud to say that i have officially become a hms harmony-aurors division member! go harry and hermione. you just got to love them! great posts guys!

Welcome crazyforharry. (watch out for Mike . .I think he's under the influence of a Jedi Mind Trick).

OK. .just trying to live up to the rep you gave me as a "cheeky bugger"
But ya'll win I've changed it back. 'Sides I prefer this pic any way . .and the quotes from JKR of course ;-)

Fairydust

August 4th, 2003, 1:21 am

( Avada Kedavra, do you go to sugarquill?)

Hawk 92

August 4th, 2003, 1:25 am

Welcome crazyforharry. (watch out for Mike . .I think he's under the influence of a Jedi Mind Trick).

Actually Tina everytime we try a mind trick on Mike all we get is an echo. :p Mike's mind, a book with many a blank page :rotfl:

I can hardly wait to see the oaths that are coming in the next couple of days. Because I'm sure we'll see at least one for the Aurors.

Cheers!

crazyforharry

August 4th, 2003, 1:26 am

thanks for the welcome. anyways, do you guys know of any good harry and hermione shipper sites? sorry it's out of topic.

Fairydust

August 4th, 2003, 1:29 am

i'm not an H/Hr shipper, but I do know that www.portkey.org or something like that is a pretty good site.

Mad Eye Mike

August 4th, 2003, 1:29 am

In my original post, I requested all those who had the "mock up" signature to kindly please remove it, stopping the joke. Mad Eye and Ecthelion and others (can't remember who) respectfully complied.

AK - In the interest of accuracy, I actually changed my sig before you posted that request. It was only meant as a good natured and temporary joke (like a few hours) but I never had any intention of leaving it up. I dearly missed my 'Samara' sig.

:welcome: crazyforharry

Back on topic...

Light Elven Mage

August 4th, 2003, 1:33 am

I think that Harry and Hermione will get together at least for a while in one of the future books. I myself would rather see HR/R and G/H, but I noticed that Harry had a dream in OotP on page 462 in the U.S. version. In this dream, Harry sees Cho, and then Cho turns into Hermione. I think this is foreshadowing that Harry and Hermione will get together, but I also think that their relationship in such an aspect will be doomed from the beginning, just as Harry's and Cho's was. I have a thread somewhere analyzing the dream in more detail, but this was the best place to post this part of it. Sorry if someone already said this, but I don't have enough time to look through 1700 posts.

BabyMars

August 4th, 2003, 1:40 am

Mike, I'm serious, your sig is giving me nightmares :scared:

This is another h/hr site: www.Pumpkinpie.org (www.pumpkinpie.org)

Cheers *smooch*

GryffindorGal

August 4th, 2003, 1:56 am

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by AvadaKedavra
In my original post, I requested all those who had the "mock up" signature to kindly please remove it, stopping the joke. Mad Eye and Ecthelion and others (can't remember who) respectfully complied.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As I tend to skim posts when I'm really far behind I probably skimmed right over it. But as you can see its been changed back.

Narami

August 4th, 2003, 1:59 am

Hawk 92

August 4th, 2003, 2:04 am

OK I've been wanting to submit a theory of my own for a while now,

OotP Ch32 Out of the Fire Pg 737

Even through his anger and impatience Harry recognized Hermione's offer to accompany him into Unbridge's office as a sign of solidarity and loyalty.

Lets look at 2 words solidarity and loyalty

sol·i·dar·i·ty

mutual agreement and support: harmony of interests and responsibilities among individuals in a group, especially as manifested in unanimous support and collective action for something

loy·al·ty

a feeling of devotion, duty, or attachment to somebody or something

So what we have here is harmony of interests among individuals in a group, in this case Harry and Hermione, and a feeling of devotion.

Now that makes for a pretty stong statement when one considers that it isolates Harry and Hermione's agreement and support among the group and shows the level of devotion that Hermione has for Harry.

I think our boy Harry is starting to see the light. ;)

And for fun lets use some syns.

solidarity-unity, harmony

loyalty- faithfulness, devotion,

I like unity and devotion (although I think that Harmony would fit the thread better) and so;

Even through his anger and impatience Harry recognized Hermione's offer to accompany him into Unbridge's office as a sign of unity and devotion.

Light dawned on Marble head (Harry's head to be exact).

Cheers!

PS Do you think that JKR visits this sight and gave us a word that can be substitued with Harmony as a tongue in cheek joke. :eyebrows:
:lol: Right.

_BT_

August 4th, 2003, 2:05 am

Light Elven Mage

August 4th, 2003, 2:11 am

It might not be doomed. I really don't care who Harry gets with, Hermione would be cool anyways, but I think the evidence, especially in the movies, points to R/Hr. I just think that the dream, if it means anything at all, shows an analogy between Cho and Hermione in Harry's head. And because Cho didn't work out so well, I would be inclined to think that Hermione wouldn't work out so well either. I think it would be better than Harry and Cho were though, because Hermione doesn't really burst into tears over everything... Especially now.

_BT_

August 4th, 2003, 2:22 am

It might not be doomed. I really don't care who Harry gets with, Hermione would be cool anyways, but I think the evidence, especially in the movies, points to R/Hr.

i'm with you on your first point. i'm not HUGE into the romance aspects of the books... but i usually end up agreeing/supporting hr/h.

as for your second point... what evidence in the movies? i would think the movies slant heavily hr/h... just look at gryffindorgal's sig

Light Elven Mage

August 4th, 2003, 2:29 am

I'm talking about the stipulation some people have about the hug at the end of CoS. Harry and Hermione had a nice friendly hug, then she turned to Ron and shook his hand... I think it would be harder to hug someone you like than someone you don't... As for that picture, isn't that supposed to be (putting this in Spoiler stuff, I think it may be a movie spoiler, don't read if you don't wanna know!)at the end, when the Dementors are around them? I'm not sure where I heard that, or whether or not it is common knowledge. And also a lot of people seem to think that Ron and Hermione argue like an old married couple.

Sirius83

August 4th, 2003, 2:35 am

Time to start back getting into the thread, although this is my only post for the night :p

1) The movies do indeed slant heavily H/Hr actually. There are tons of H/Hr moments in them that simply were not in the books, and POA seems to have one already judging by the scene in my sig.

2) The dream does have a symbolism to it if you ask me. I've been saying for a while that the fact Cho(Harry's crush) turns into Hermione instead of just having Hermione enter the dream normally says a lot. As for it meaning that it is doomed from the start, i don't agree. It is Hermione's suggestions that makes Harry think the whole thing with Cho is ridiculous. It seems to me that Hermione is showing a problem in the H/C relationship while taking Cho's place in Harry's heart.

Harry doesn't conciously like Hermione thatw ay right now, so how would JKR let us know his inner feelings that even he does not realise yet? Through dreams and mentioning that part of his sobconcious now speaks in Hermione's voice! :)

EDIT:
Light Elven Mage: I've looked at that scene on the DVD several times and noticed something. Ron is the one who freezes up, so Hermione stops moving in to hug him and watches him like "What's up with you?" Then, after the non-hug, Hermione is quite fine blabbering on about how they solved the mystery, while Ron still looks uncomfortable. Sorry, but it's as one sided as the books are.

Additionally, to my knowledge, Hermione was supposed to hug both boys in the script but Emma wouldn't do it. Columbus then managed to get her to just hug Dan quickly, which they lengthened using various camera angles and not hug Rupert. Columbus felt this would foreshadow the events of GOF, but it was apparently not in the script that Kloves created with JKR's help. In the COS DVD interview, JKR says she felt the movie foreshadowed feelings between the THREE of them, not the two. This suggests Harry was involved in the "feelings" as well.

_BT_

August 4th, 2003, 2:41 am

I'm talking about the stipulation some people have about the hug at the end of CoS. Harry and Hermione had a nice friendly hug, then she turned to Ron and shook his hand... I think it would be harder to hug someone you like than someone you don't...

it's all up to interpretation. i interpreted it as harry/hermione having an easier, and at the point, deeper friendship, while ron/hermione felt awkward doing it since their friendship was not at that level yet. nothing to really conclusively point to mutual or even one-sided feelings in that scene. but like i said, it's all about one's interpretation since there's no way to prove it one way or another.

as for the picture bit... despite the situation the two are in.. harry's clutch on her still seems suggestive :tu:

finally.. the married bit. again, everyone has a different opinion on this. i think it's just friendly arguing/contrasting personalities... nothing more :)

Light Elven Mage

August 4th, 2003, 2:51 am

Yeah. Those are very good points from everyone. Sirius, I never knew that about Emma. Sheds some light on some stuff, doesn't it? It's too bad that there isn't something a little more difinitive, so we don't have to do so much guessing and analyzing of stuff that might not even mean anything... I still read most of it as Ron and Hermione not being comfortable hugging each other for that reason, but I still think we will see at least something H/Hr. As to how much, I don't really know...

Grace Granger

August 4th, 2003, 2:53 am

All I'm posting tonight is to say:

:welcome: Back, Hawk! I hope everything is well. Unfortunately, I am attached at the hip to Mike, so I won't be leaving the Aurors Division to join your Jedi-Pumpkin Army. Forgive me.

Love,
Grace

PS: Great poem! ;)

Augurey

August 4th, 2003, 6:31 am

Hello everyone :clap:
Im completely new here, so i hope you'll be nice to me :) *steps nervously upon HMS Harmony, and looks around in awe at her splendor*
Well iv been scanning through everyones posts (and there were a lot to scan through) and im sticking with the relationship, that i would like to see happen the most, and that is the nicer one H/Hr of course. I say nicer, because well in my opinon it is, there is a lot more respect going on between the two, than there is between R/Hr. Alot of opposing shippettes will disagree of course, but in my view theres nothing to disagree with, Harry and Hermione are perfect for eachother.
Now seeing as its my first day aboard this ship, i should really try to make a good first impression to the captain (which is who? by the way) and all of his/her crew. So i begin with the saying 'two peas in a pod' (sorry i just love that expression) that is how i see Harry and Hermione, they are extremely close to each other. So close in fact that Harry is prepared to listen to Hermione's girl advice, which i have found some boys (perticuly around Harry's age) to be rather senstive about. No man likes to admit that they are completly clueless when it comes to relationships, and although a lot of them are (no pun intended), they are still reluctant to show it, that is why when i first read OoTP, i was suprised at how Harry felt no alkwardness to listening to Hermione tell him what to do about Cho.
Now Harry is, in my opinon, extremely stuborn, and he proves it by sticking to the conclution that he was not at fault with Cho, and she was the one who stormed off at Madam Puddifoots (leaving him to pay, good on you Cho!) and it is basically down to her 'whining teenage agnst'. Don't judge Harry on it by the way, its perfectly normal, for eg, my brother who is fifteen, has a girlfriend, but judging by the fact that we haven't seen her round for a couple of days, im begining to suspect that they've had an argument, of course if i mention this to him, he scoffs in my face and merely tells me to mind my own business (talk about gratitude!). Anyway as i was walking past his bedroom yesterday, i heard him telling his friends about it, saying how it was completly her fault and she was over-reacting to something stupid, i didn't catch the entire coversation, so i have no idea whats going on, but it proves that teenage males can not tell the difference between what they think is right and what is right. (now don't go shouting at me all you teenage males out there, it will only prove that my theories correct ;) ) Well anyway, as i was saying if Harry was ok with all Hermione's advice then it proves he thinks highly of her, and no one can deny that they are extremly good friends.
Now, i bet your all thinking, what the hell she on about? she's given one example that Harry and Hermione are destined together.
Well, it is my belief that from that example alone you can see that they are close enough to be able to talk to each other about such complecated things such as 'love'. Ok maybe Hermione has never told Harry about her love life, but girls are different, they only tell when theres something to tell. And maybe theres nothing to tell about her and Krum, we don't know.
The most logical explanation i can come up with, is that there is not going to be platonic feelings between the two of them forever, its only natrual that they will feel something between them, even if its only for a little while. I was briefly looking at a thread in Knockturn ally called 'Can a girl and a boy ever really just be good friends' its quite interesting actually and i recommend you take a look at it, as it brings up quite a lot of valued points, to do with both H/Hr and R/Hr. I believe, No, a girl and a guy will never be able to be just friends, even if they don't act upon feelings, one of them at least will have a thought, whether brief or not, about the other in a romantic sense. It can be denied of course, but its only human nature, so theres nothing you can do about it. That is why the 'plantonicness' (is that a word?) will not always be a good excuse, when it comes to H/Hr.
Now Harry and Hermione are better friends, in my opinon, than Ron and Hermione, that can be argued of course, but then thats what debating is all about.
Im merely trying to give out my views on things, and by no means am trying to convince anyone to join H/Hr. Its just what i think on the subject really.

Anyway thanks for reading (if you did) my very first post, its not excellent, but i hope i'll be able to join in this discussion, because i admit since finishing OoTP iv been constantly thinking about who Harry's going to end up with, my favourite choice being Hermione of course.

May HMS Harmony sail gractious to the end. Thank-you very much.

FlyingPhoenix

August 4th, 2003, 8:14 am

Welcome to all new members
and off course great post.

Hawk good to see that you are back on our beloved ship. It was kinda quiet without you. Well, If I did ignore the Backstreet Boys.
Nice poem by the way. This did remind me on something.

Now about H/Hr is logical or not-logical.

For this I need to bring my beloved Hermione-POV into play or rather explain that love isn't easy.

Love is indeed not easy it has problems make your live before it make you happy it makes you worst. You all know Romeo and Juliet or just Moulin rouge all this storys about love not a single is about easy love. Its not like love is nice and look for you the person out who is the easiest way to fall for and its without any problems. Love is cruel and search for you this person out who bring you to your abyss what brings problems and make you greatly unhappy. Thats why I do think OBHWF is logical and to easy. There you don't has any problems and how AK shows with his 5-steps-theory it is without any problems straight to R/Hr and that is easy love. All what they need to do by this theory is to make a move and everything is allright.

But Love isn't like that. Its not that easy and nice and fluffy not in a serie where everything is difficult, Harrys live is difficult.
So that say love should be difficult and I will explain why it is logical to fall for Ron and not for Harry.
Its where my Hermione-POV comes in again let say its fact that Hermione likes Harry and know Ron dos like her:

My question is Why? Why it has to be him and not the one who likes me? I'm that stupid to fall for someone who brings me into troubles. Since I know him, since this very day I fear to lose him. Now in that year after Voldemort is back, now where he could die every single moment I start to fall for him. This just unlogical but isn't love unlogical? It is and thats a crime. Because if it were like I want it I did feel this for Ron. There is it save, there I don't have to fear to lose him. There I didn't need to break the heart of my best friend. I know it since the yule ball that he likes me that way but I just don't like him back. First I didn't get it that I felt that way about Harry it was as I was at home and asked myself why I did feel like that through my year and why I did kiss him and it was just like that. I didn't figured it out not yet that I was falling. Than I heard Harry was attacked by dementors I freaked out. I mean this is my best friend we talking about and he was attacked there where he should be save. As he did come to 12G I huged like I never huged him before. I was all days in a bad mood but as fast as I did know he was here and save I was happy but as he yelled it was as if I could feel how he did feel through this weeks.
Anyway where was I? Right how I get that I fell for Harry it was after he did get off from the hearing and wasn't expeled. I never felt that reliefed in my life not like that and I did know it. I did know the worst thing was happening. Ron feels for me and I for Harry who just feel for Cho. I had a real problem. If I could chose for whom I should feel like that I did chose Ron. All this cost problems, big problems. Now where Voldemort is back now where we need to stand together is it our feeling what could bring us in trouble. I mean if I felt, I really tried, for Ron this way it were everything just fine. No broking hearts, no knowing your feelings are wasting time, no fears to lose the one you like or love could die.
I didn't ask for to fall for him, I didn't even want it. About trying to like Ron its the reason why I kissed him on the cheek. I tried to look if I feel the same which I felt as I kissed Harry but it didn't work. (Believe me girls do such stupid things so quiet possible).
Sometimes I'm mad about Ron and call him names as if he could something for it but he can't he didn't chose it. (It was this mad author of this POV :D)

Now see what I mean its difficult that way its not easy and its not logical. Logical implied the best and in the sametime easiest way. In that case to fall for Ron, who allready likes Hermione, someone who is not the hero. Someone who is not in every year in danger, his very live in danger. Its foolish to fall for the hero because he is the one who die most likely and who is that stupid to fall for someone who won't even live long enough?
But if we argue that Harry is logical to fall for than Ginny did in her first year the right thing she falls for Harry. But to fall for Neville the guy who is not the hero is even unlogical. And there we are again love is in general unlogical. It don't chose the best person for you. I'm sure Hermione don't want to fall for Harry and Harry don't want to fall for her. But love don't ask what you want its just happens.

Thats another reason why I ship H/Hr because its not easy, because it include problems what I know from every story which is about love.

potterfreak24

August 4th, 2003, 10:06 am

OK that's it...I'm not going to sleep again..to many posts to catch up on the next day...

Gily Ann you said something that I just don't understand...

Because I see Hermione as a great character is that I don’t think she is suitable for Harry. I failed to see how could anyone read this books and not see how little appreciation for Hermione Harry shows.

Gily Ann

To me it seems that you are contradicting yourself here. Let me explain. A few pages back you said how Harry noticing Hermione's "solidarity and loyalty" in OOTP is a bad thing. How can this be?

I agree with you in that Harry has been a dunderhead at times when it comes to acknowledging all that Hermione is willing to go through for him in the past 5 years. However towards the end of book 5 "even through his anger and impatience Harry recognized Hermione's offer to accompany him into Umbridge's office as a sign of solidarity and loyalty" (US version Chap 32:Out of the Fire: Pg 737.) He finally wakes up and recognizes all that Hermione is willing to go through with him.

1) So in the past 4-5 years Harry doesn't appreciate Hermione
2) In Book 5 He finally reaches that conclusion
3) You see that as a bad thing.
4) Hermione is the only one that he recognizes "solidarity and loyalty".

To claify my point 4 just a bit further: Remember all the way back to year 1 (PS/SS). Remember why Neville Longbottom got the 10 points to help Gryffindor win the house cup?

"There are all kinds of courage...it takes a great deal of bravery to stand up to our enemies, but just as much to stand up to our friends" (American PB Version SS: Chapter 17: The Man with Two Faces: pg. 306). This is exactly what Hermione is/has been doing all throughout Book 5. She's the only one brave enough to stand up against THE Harry Potter. Not because she's probably right, but because she is his friend, who worries and cares a great deal for him. Harry finally wakes up (and smells the coffee) and realizes what Hermione is trying to do...and in the meantime realizes that she's the only who is/has done it.
You see this as a bad thing. It's taken him 5 years to finally realize this. I see this as a good thing. It's a sign of Harry's maturity. And he realizes that no matter how much he throws a fit (in book 5) Hermione no matter what will always be there to help him. He comes to realize that she will always be there for him. Yes he was a bit slow on the pick up..but he finally got it. How is that a bad thing?

ps: :welcome: Back to Hawk, and I have a request, if I would be permitted to join your Jedi Pumpkin Army.. :blush:

GilyAnn

August 4th, 2003, 10:52 am

potterfreak24 Actually . . .

Harry seeing Hermione's loyalty is for me a sign of him not appreciating her. I mean after 5 years he has to see Hermione's loyalty to recognized it? By now he is suppossed not to have a hint of doubt about that. He has no questions of Ron's. He even looks surprised when Ron agreed with Hermione about the DA because Harry always assumes that Ron is loyal to him. Yet he never assumes that with Hermione. In the chapter when a new teacher for care of magical creatures came in he looked at Hermione waiting for her to say that Hagrid was a good teacher. He didn't had to look at Ron.

By 5 years now and all that Hermione has done for Harry he should have no questions of her loyalty and support. Yet he does, he has to see her loyalty to be sure of it. It's for me a bad sign.

Gily Ann

FlyingPhoenix

August 4th, 2003, 11:10 am

Harry dos know that Hermione is loyal to him. But this arguement they have is hug and I for once didn't expect that Hermione gives in and even gos with him and don't let him go alone into Umbridge office. Off course Harry think this is a sign of true loyality.
Because How I said so many times already that if you are angry at someone you don't want spent time with him or even do this things which you think is wrong and still Hermione dos it thats loyality in a very high form. There isn't written that Harry didn't know it till to this page that Hermione is trustfully and all the way on his side.
Its you who understand it that way. Fron PS/SS as both Ron and Hermione told Harry they come with him to the 3th floor till now Harry did always know she is loyal. If he didn't know it than he wouldn't share with her all his little secrets from Sirius till his breaking rules to his invisible cloak or this map. She just wouldn't know it because if Harry think she isn't loyal to him he have to think she might betray him and that is for sure through all books never the cast.

Nia

August 4th, 2003, 11:59 am

Thank you Earendil and MoF and everyone for your warm welcome! And welcome :welcome: to Augurey. I loved your perspective. I don’t think I’ve heard anyone approach Harry and Hermione’s discussions of his problems with Cho from quite that angle before. It was a very good observation. :agree:

Quote from Flying Phoenix regarding the most logical relationship:
(From the Hermione POV—which I think is brilliant) :tu:
_____________________________________________________________
Love is indeed not easy it has problems make your live before it make you happy it makes you worst. You all know Romeo and Juliet or just Moulin rouge all this storys about love not a single is about easy love. Its not like love is nice and look for you the person out who is the easiest way to fall for and its without any problems. Love is cruel and search for you this person out who bring you to your abyss what brings problems and make you greatly unhappy. Thats why I do think OBHWF is logical and too easy. There you don't has any problems and how AK shows with his 5-steps-theory it is without any problems straight to R/Hr and that is easy love. All what they need to do by this theory is to make a move and everything is allright.

But Love isn't like that. Its not that easy and nice and fluffy not in a serie where everything is difficult, Harrys live is difficult.
So that say love should be difficult and I will explain why it is logical to fall for Ron and not for Harry.
Its where my Hermione-POV comes in again let say its fact that Hermione likes Harry and know Ron dos like her:

My question is Why? Why it has to be him and not the one who likes me? I'm that stupid to fall for someone who brings me into troubles. Since I know him, since this very day I fear to lose him. <snip>
_____________________________________________________________

All I can say about this post and the other Hermione POV post which can be found here (http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=501637&postcount=1394) is BRAVO! :clap:
I just LOVE the way you think, Flying Phoenix!

Just as Harry and Hermione are not your typical hero and heroine, a relationship between them is not the logical easy-to-imagine one. The first two times I read GoF, I was certain that Ron and Hermione were the destined pairing. It just seemed so logical. All the overt signs seemed to point to Hermione’s suppressed and Ron’s not-so-suppressed feelings for each other. It was "obvious." Harry, on the other hand, although I adored him, was much, much too complicated. Well, several re-readings later, I’ve changed my mind. Hermione is complicated too. She doesn’t relate to the superficiality of Parvati and Lavender, nor to Fleur’s shallow packaging. I think Evaluna gives us the clearest picture of both her and Harry in her Post 1742 on page 59 0f this thread:
Quote from Evaluna:
____________________________________________________________
(After pointing out that Hermione is appreciated at the Yule Ball because she made the effort to fit in with the prescribed superficial appearance that defines ‘beauty.’):
However, in the main, Hermione cares rather less [or chooses to care less] what people think of her appearance and instead bases her self-esteem on her integrity, her character, [SPEW, loyalty, bravery] and her intellect. Day-to-day, Hermione’s about more important stuff and really could a fig if her hair is ratty or slick, rather preferring to let her character, integrity, and intellect shine. Hermione is definitely the anti-heroine, as well, and I absolutely love that, but for me this is because of her attitudes, her willingness to take stances against society’s expectations (re: SPEW, racism, prejudice…) on a variety of levels from the universal to the personal, including her refusal to let society "define" her or pass judgment on her -- whether regarding her muggleborn background, her appearance, or what have you.
_____________________________________________________________

Hermione’s attraction to Harry (platonically speaking here) is not based on anything external because, quite frankly, there is not much external to look at. JKR goes to pains to try and give us a clear picture of Harry’s appearance—and Harry is NOT by any stretch of the imagination Dan Radcliffe. Hermione, who doesn’t see the importance of illusional packaging for herself is not turned off by the packaging of others, she ‘goes for the good stuff’ – those ephemeral things that present society seems to discount—character, integrity, courage, friendship… This is what makes her love Harry (as a friend) and I believe that this friendship has become so close that if and when they cross over into romantic love, it will be as natural as breathing.
The big problem for Hermione in loving such a boy is that the very things she admires about him are the very things that could get him killed. His insistence on telling the truth in Umbridge’s class—in spite of the horrifying detention assignments and the loss of his place on the Quidditch team, shows to what lengths he will go for the sake of his integrity. JKR makes it clear that his punishments and his humiliations by the Daily Prophet which turns him into a pariah in the wizarding world cause Hermione tremendous distress. Such an anti-hero in literature is generally not allowed a beloved. Generally speaking, these types of heroes become martyrs. The LOGICAL affiliation would be between Ron and Hermione—both his best friends, who are not the targets of Voldemort. Ron is a decent, loyal friend with a great deal of courage and incredible strategic skills, which he hides behind boyish foolishness. He is not subject to tormenting dreams, or dramatic mood swings or anything other than the normal distresses of a teen-aged boy. He very rarely acts the prat, and has a great sense of humor. All he needs is a little push to become a very admirable guy indeed. He is the logical choice. Why not him? Ron is not right for Hermione for the same reason Ginny is not right for Harry—both Harry and Hermione are too complicated to love anything less than a kindred spirit—one who sees the world as they each do and feels their convictions with the depth of passion they both do.

As Ron is a slowly evolving character, I don’t feel I’d be too upset if JKR gave him a few deeper convictions in the next two books, wrote him a backbone and allowed Hermione to see his inner strength and love him for it. I think it would be a tacky, amateurish way to resolve the romantic questions, but I am not JKR. As Flying Phoenix says, all Hermione has to do is open her eyes and there is the romance—no obstacles. Now, Ginny and Harry is another story.
There was a time (prior to OoP) that I believed, in the back of my mind, that Ginny might be Harry’s destined mate. In CoS, because Ginny felt it necessary to pour her heart into the diary, I thought maybe, in spite of Ron saying she “never shuts up normally,” she could be this introspective girl that had deep unspoken thoughts she could one day share with Harry. She and Harry would then have a commonality. We never saw her hanging out with anyone other than Hermione in PoA and GoF. Just before the Yule Ball, when she was quietly comforting Ron in the common room, I thought we would maybe see JKR show us a Ginny who, because she had been possessed by Voldemort, had been quietly observing things from the sidelines and had perspectives no other character had managed. I thought that JKR would have her acknowledge Harry’s extraordinary efforts on her behalf during her second year and that their common experience with Voldemort might serve to help her understand Harry were even Hermione couldn’t. I thought wrongly. Instead, in OoP we get this trivial “Super Ginny” who almost completely negates all of the previous character set up. My guess was that JKR wrote her this way to placate all the yapping head feminists who couldn’t see that Hermione was an incredibly strong female character. I was annoyed--especially by Ginny’s flippant remarks to Harry regarding the Chamber experience. Granted, Harry’s forgetting that she had been possessed somewhat trivialized the event, but at the same time, for the past four books, she has [B]completely failed to acknowledge the efforts his extraordinary rescue entailed. I simply cannot see these two coming together, I don’t care if Harry finds her a brilliant, ‘blazing beauty’ in Book 6, the exposition simply would not work. JKR can write whatever she wants but the reason I love these books is that so many things ring true. A Harry/Ginny romance would seem phony and totally contrived and a cheap out for an otherwise gifted writer.
The best stories necessitate twists and turns, obstacles, catastrophes and near catastrophes, the unknown and the unexpected, but with enough hints and clues tossed out along the way so that all the events and nail-biting moments appear to flow into a believable confluence at the end. This holds true for romances as well as mystery-adventures and any other type of fiction. The Ron/Hermione relationship, as presented by the very intelligent AK and others IMO, seems the most logically simplistic and much too easy to be even mildly interesting.

Cheers,
Nia