Can Snape really be trusted?

[lunalovegood03]

I know everytime we suspect Snape it ends up that he really is working for good but what if thats just a set up for at the very end the seventh time we question him we write it off as no way he can't be and he really is?!?!

I mean dumbledore trusts him but only to a point. He won't let him be dada teacher even when the only other options are :censored:? Is it like dumbledore fears if snape gets to close to his old ways he'll trade?
Like how you don't let an acholic (sp?) tend bar?

Snape refers to voldemort as "the dark lord"? what's up that??

snape is friends with Lucius Malfoy a known death eater? If snape is a trader to them how come their still friends?

just wondering what yall think

[stayre]

When reading OOP I wondered why was Dumbledore trusting Snape so much. I don't know if you have already discussed this issue, I'm new in this forum. I don't think it's just because he is spying on Voldermort, I think there's something more but I can't guess what!!!

PS Sorry for my English but I'm Italian and I don't practice it much

[jerb]

I've been convinced that Snape is good. However, the recent interview makes me doubt it. I don't know if it is that he is a traitor, but rather he never left the Death Eaters. I think the fact that Snape is a master of Occulemency (sp) means we should question everything about him, and never settle on an answer. Always question.

[Puffskein]

Even though I'm not Snape's number one fan, I would feel cheated if he turned out to be bad after all. Maybe JKR's hint meant just that Snape will never become a nice guy despite being good, or that we will learn what he did as a DE, or that his bitterness will lead to a tragedy.

[jerb]

Welcome, and your English is great!

I think there is a reason that Dumbldore trusts Snape. I just have no clue as to why. I think it has something to do with the "great personal risk" Snape took to turn to the good side.

[ilovedan112389]

Well, Dumbledore has his reason, hadn't he????

I am from Hong Kong, may be the english is bad.......I regret for that..

[FawkesBox]

Oh no he should not trust Snape. All along Book 1 (well the movie- I regretably saw that first) I was convinced that Snape was evil. His actions in POA. Always DD defended him then there is the "Dark Lord." Only the death eaters call V the Dark Lord (ytes, Ludo Bagman included). What about the comment that it seemed like Snape was opening up Harry's mind more than he was teaching him to close it? Snape has clearly returned to fold. I would even venture that it is possible that he is a souble agent- now spying for Voldemort.

[Arissya_00]

Yes, Dumbledore is wise, he has his own ways..... I don't think Snape is evil, he probably just suffers from the bad memories of James......:(

[Quasi_EviL]

Stephen Fry (heavily paraphrased):
Then there's characters like Snape, who are bad but there is a certain ambiguity about him. You can't quite decide because there's something quite sad about him. Something very lonely. We're slowly (after five books) getting the idea that maybe he is not so bad after all.

JK Rowling:
Yes, but you shouldn't think he's too nice. Let me just say that. It is worth keeping an eye on old Severus Snape, definitely.

^That's from the webcast with J.K. Rowling a couple of days ago.

I think Snape is just a very bitter, cynical, middle-aged man, who's trapped in the past.

[Catwalkk]

I think Snape is kinda like Fudge/Umbridge when it comes to Harry, his friends, and the Marauders. I don't think Snape will ever be able to see clearly and think straight when dealing with our heroes. That doesn't mean that Snape is working for Voldemort, it just means that Snape has a weakness that I think Voldemort is going to exploit. And Snape hates being weak, so he might wind up redeeming himself after all.

[hermiones mum]

Is Dumbledore in Snapes Debt for saving his life....he would be obliged to believe that he supports him.

It is a good place to keep an eye on him, but both of them play mind games (blocking and probing)

[vickygirl4]

I think Snape is TRYING to be good, but perhaps he still has some evil in him. So DD trusts him because he knows that Snape has good intentions, but he won't let him be DADA teacher because he's afraid that might make Snape evil again.

Also, Snape is probably good friends with Malfoy so he can find out information about Voldemort and help the ORder.

I trull think he is a good guy!

[Neila Weiss]

I agree with what catwalkk said. One thing that book V definitely highlighted was how fallibility was an inherent trait in all human beings, in both wizards and muggles alike. Dumbledore himself said that he'd underestimated Snape's hatred for James, and the lengths to which that hatred has manifested itself in Potter Junior, and as such even though Dumbledore TRUSTS Snape that trust might not be enough to prevent Snape from committing some tragic act in the heat of the moment.

Nevertheless, I think another reason Dumblebore might trust Snape might have to do with Snape's life debt to James. When Harry saved Peter in PoA, Dumbledore said that such an act creates a bond between the two wizards, enforced by a magic more powerful than Harry could ever imagine. Therefore, even though James is dead, who's to say that that debt didn't carry over to Harry? I'm not really familiar with the logistics of wizarding debts, but hey, you never know.

I believe that Harry won't die in book seven as many people seem to be speculating. Rather, perhaps a sacrifice by either Snape or Pettigrew on account of that 'life debt' might be in order?

[Hagamaba]

I belive Snape is good.
Like most middle aged men who did'nt end up in life where he thought he'd be, became bitter and blames others for his faults.

I think that because he is a master of Occulemency (and probley only second to that of Dumbledore) it allows him to keep the Spy contact within the DE org.

With Malfoy Sr (Snape's main contact) being caught now... does this make it more dangourus for Snape. Yes, Snape will go deeper into darkness and may have to lay down his life for someone.

Snape is a man with a good heart, he just does not show it well. And I think readers can only see this depending upon life experiances. Some kids may pick up on this right away or some adults may never pick up on it.

[lorna]

Yeh, I noticed Snape calls Voldie the "Dark Lord" and doesn't that have red herring written all over it. Dumbledore may have made mistakes but he hasn't turned into a blithering moron. Surely somebody has pointed this tendency of Death Eaters to call Voldie "Dark Lord" before now.

[Aprilsbunch]

I always thought Dumbeldore was right for trusting Snape. I thought he was misunderstood and must have done something really good for Dumbeldore to always be on his side. After rereading Ootp I am not so sure anymore. Snape refused to give Harry any more lessons even though he knew how very important they were, When everyone went to ministy to save Harry, Snape went to the forest to look for Harry, why didn't he find Umbridge then ( Dumbeldore went to get her himself) He can block Voldermorts finding out he is lying so I am sure he could block Dumbeldores too. There is more that I found odd but I can't think of them right now.

[Moonstone]

When everyone went to ministy to save Harry, Snape went to the forest to look for Harry, why didn't he find Umbridge then

Why would he want to? :angel:

Seriously, though, Umbridge was hardly Snape's priority at the moment. And he owed her no loyalty or favors. Students in the school are his responsibility, as is working toward the goals of the Order as far as keeping Harry alive. The High Inquisitor was not his problem.

[The Oracle]

Originally posted by Neila Weiss (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=399274#post399274))
Nevertheless, I think another reason Dumblebore might trust Snape might have to do with Snape's life debt to James. When Harry saved Peter in PoA, Dumbledore said that such an act creates a bond between the two wizards, enforced by a magic more powerful than Harry could ever imagine. Therefore, even though James is dead, who's to say that that debt didn't carry over to Harry? I'm not really familiar with the logistics of wizarding debts, but hey, you never know.

I believe Snape does owe James and now Harry a life debt, but if Snape is a traitor then that would be all the more reason to try and repay that life debt before Ol' Cold, White n' Pastey came back into power. That's why Snape tried to save him as early as possible, back in Harry's first year. Once he got it out of the way, he could go back to being a spy for Voldie without the guilt of the Life Debt over his head. Now, he might be forced to save Harry's life from his master, the Dark Lord. What a conundrum that would be... :P

I really do believe that after the events of book 5, and what JKR has said in the webcast that Snape is a double agent. We're just being lead to believe he's a good guy. *really bummed*

[Gandalf_the_White]

I Was just thinking after i saw Hermione's sneak charm on Marietta that maybe Snape could have had someone put one on him to prove his loyalty. When Harry asks Dumbledore how does he trust Snape. He says something along the lines that is something between him and Snape and not really any of Harry's business. Do you think Snape or Dumbledore would do this, it would be a way for Snape to show that he had changed his ways, because we saw that Crouch Sr. wasn't lenient at all and he must have done something to convince Crouch that he was on the good side? What does everyone think? I did a check and couldn't find this theory anywhere else.

http:// Dreams are Wiser than men

[Doggy]

Somehow, I don't believe Dumbledore is the person who would stick "sneak charms" or something of the sort onto a person to check their loyalty. That's far below his morals.

[idbeasquib]

I think that Dumbledore's trust of Snape is just that; Trust. I don't think it's any form of magic or test or anything. I think that Dumbledore is just relying on his basic human feelings, which seem to be the strongest of magicks (Lily's love for Harry saved him from an unblockable curse).

[Gandalf_the_White]

Yeah i understand that Dumbledore would not, but Crouch did not seem like the type who would say well Dumbledore if you trust him we will let him go. They had to do something to convince Crouch that Snape had truly switched sides, if he didn't Crouch would have tossed him to the Dementors. what evidence did Dumbledore present

[MommaaLuna]

I think the reason Dumbledore trusts Snape has something to do with Snape telling Dumbledore that Voldemort was going after the Potters. In GoF, (page 590, American edition) when Karkaroff says Snape is a death eater, Dumbledore says, "I have given evidence already on this matter. Severus Snape was indeed a Death Eater. However, he rejoined our side before Lord Voldemort's downfall and turned spy for us, at great personal risk. He is now no more a Death Eater than I am."

I think the fact that Snape informed them of Voldemort's plans, trying to keep the Potters (who he hated) safe was good enough for Dumbledore.

[*Darth Voldemort*]

I believe, we will find out, that Snape did something very heroic to earn Dumbledor's trust. Rowling is continuingly making us curious about Snape. We still do not know, what kind mission was given to him at the end of GoF. We will be told, of course. And we will learn why exactly Dumledore trusts Snape.

[KeLiSiTing]

I agree with the idea that Snape is the one who told DUmbledore that Voldmort was after the Potters. It would make a lot of sense. Because if truth be told, I don't think Snape would ahve minded much to ahve James dead. If he indirectly tried to save the Potters Dumbledore could easily trust him.

[Kerbox]

I thought it was quite obvious throughout the book that he returned to Voldemort. He told harry in occlumancy lessons that it was his job to spy on Voldemort.

[pasalita]

I've merged Gandalf the White's most recent thread pondering Snape and Dumbledore into this already existing thread.

Please do a search prior to posting any new thread topics. If you need help narrowing down a search, PM a Prefect, Moderator, Professor or Admin.

Thanks!

[randomfan86]

I think Snape can be trusted....I think Dumbledore doesn't let him have the DADA job to serve as a reminder of his past mistakes.

[DaN+EmMa]

if dumbledore isn't worried, then none of us should be. the reason shall be answered within the upcomming books. dumbledore is an extremly wise man and when he puts his trust into someone, he's willing to back them up 500%

[sscourtney]

jk in that interview said(quoting):when Professor Dumbledore took Professor Snape onto the staff and Professor Snape said he'd like to teach Defence Against the Dark Arts please and Professor Dumbledore felt that it might bring out the worst in Professor Snape, so Dumbledore said: "I think we'll let you teach potions and see how you get along there
well more will be of course in the books...

[braggyboy]

Something that caught my eye when reading the order of the Pheonix the second time round was a sentence (forgive me for being too lazy to go and get the book) that goes something like
'You are on probation. I am surprised at you Severus, Lucius Malfoy always speaks very highly of you.' - Dolores Umbridge
If Snape had gone back to the 'good' side before Voldemorts downfall, then surely Lucius Malfoy would be very angry with Snape and not speak highly of him?
The only explanation i can think of is that Lucius beleives Snape is still working for Voldemort and is spying on Dumbledore, or that Snape is indeed working for Voldemort and is spying on Dumbledore. However this doesnt seem likely as he has saved Harry's life before now.
Sorry if this seems confusing i am a newbie to this board!

[Fairydust]

Snape is working for Dumbledore and is spying on Voldemort. He's pretty tight with Lucius because he has to keep up a front. I think that if Snape was going against Dumbledore then Dumbledore would know. He trusts Snape fully so it shouldn't even be debated if Snape is trustworthy. :)

[braggyboy]

I think after seven years Lucius Malfoy would have seen whether Snape was lying to him and other death eaters. However i am probably wrong. I also believe that severus is trustworthy, i just wanted to see if anyone had any ideas about this particular idea.

[Alastor D]

Kindly note that there is a thread 'All about Snivellus Snape' already. This will probably be closed.

[Ian P.]

I believe that Snape is being so nice to Draco and Lucius because Snape can spy on the Death Eaters through Lucius. There are plenty of clues for that in the book. Even though I really really hate Snape, I don't think he's evil.

[RedCape]

It's probably in the thread mentioned above, but I don't recall. To quickly answer your question, in GoF when Voldemort gets his new body and calls his followers, he goes around the circle and comments at the empty places. He says how one will never return, one is at Hogwarts and so on. He doesn't name them. Speculation is that Lucius Malfoy thinks Snape is the loyal one at Hogwarts. We know Voldemort was referring to Barty jr., but Malfoy probably does not and therefore still trusts Snape.

Also of note though is JKR saying in Albert Hall interview that we shouldn't trust Snape too much. Perhaps she just means stuff like when he stopped giving Harry occlumency lessons. We'll see!

[The Golden Snitch]

I think JKR just doesnt want us to think Snape is going to be sending Harry butterbear for Christmas. Snape can be trusted in my mind, after 5 years at Hogwarts, if Snape wanted Harry dead, Harry would be dead.

[seeker-girl]

I reckon Snape can be trusted, because Dumbledore trusts him.

[ClausBrisik]

You know what, this is something is going to last for ages...Snape, good, evil...or both?!
As I read the sentence that braggy qouted from the book for the very first time, it came to my mind the idea of a double agent...And I guess it fits. Snape, under Dumbledore's orders, convinced Malfoy that he had never been with Dumbledore and his order, and he was just pretending to work for them...Then, he would give false/useless information to the death eaters and Voldemort so that they could believe him, while he was really doing a spiesjob.
Perhaps he gave Fudge the hint that Sturgies would be in the MoM, so he wouldn't blew his work...
er...does it sound likely?

[Dormitorius Draco]

Though you gotta admit, it must be tiresome for DD to constantly having to defend Snape whenever ppl ask if he's really on their side, lord knows DD had to say he trust him atleast 2 times whenever he's in the presence of Harry.

[Hammi]

I think snape can be trusted but it doesn't mean we have to like him

[Haplo]

DD says hes a o k JKR says t okeep a watch on him..

hmmmmmmm

Well think im gonna go with DD. JK seems to like to points us in the wrong direction occasionally to keep us on our toes.

I kind of like the guy anyways. :o)

[MorningGlory]

There's more to Snape than meets the eye. He's got his flaws, sure, but he is not evil. He's just misunderstood. He hasn't truly ever recovered from being "Snivellus" as a child. He harbors adolescent fears and hides inside of himself.

Dumbledore is an excellent judge of character. He would never allow Snape to give Harry occlumency lessons, or teach in the same school as him, if for one second he thought that he might be a threat to him. Dumbledore has a "grandfather's" love for Harry.

Although Snape is hard on Harry because he reminds him of James, I think that Snape actually really likes Harry. I think he knows that Harry is not at all like James was at his age (picking on those less fortunate than he and such), and that all-in-all, he's a pretty good kid. He just doesn't want him to get a big head or any grand ideas.

If Snape wanted Harry dead he would have let Quirrel do it for him on the quidditch field and kept his hands clean to boot.

[Pr0nGs]

Hmm... In book 4, when the DE's returned to Voldemort, he said that he believes one has left him forever, Snape. I am not seeing how he is still spying on Voldemort. They know he has turned. Or is he acting like he is spying on Dumbledore?

[Andromeda_Black]

How can Snape be a spy for Dumbledore when voldermort knows he has turned to the good side? Remember Quirrel in the first year! Voldermort was in his head, he knew snape was against him! And if Voldie can get inside Harrys brain then he will be able to see Snape teaching occlumency, and so I dont see how Snape's strength at legicilimincy will be any use to him! Voldermort and Lucius are not stupid, they would not trust Snape unless they had very good reason to think he was on their side.

I dont trust Snape, i'm not sure about him being pure 'evil' but there is definately something about him not be trusted. Ive said this before but why does everyone attach so much importance to Dumbledore trusting him? Dumbledore has been wrong before.

[braggyboy]

Well, there seems to be two different opinions here, the first being that Snape is fooling Voldemort and the Death eaters, and the other being that he is fooling Dumbledore and Harry etc. However, like Andromeda says above, Voldemort is also not a fool, and when he talks about 'one who i believe has left me forever,' this could refer to Karkaroff or snape.

[FreyaCrescent]

Originally posted by braggyboy (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=470453#post470453))
Voldemort is also not a fool, and when he talks about 'one who i believe has left me forever,' this could refer to Karkaroff or snape.

Yeah, I think he's referring to Snape there. If my memory serves correctly, Voldemort is referring to Karkaroff when he says there is "one too cowardly to return".

I believe Snape can be trusted if Dumbledore believe he can. He doesn't seem the type of guy who would defend Severus' past if he didn't firmly believe he had turned away from that. Snape serves a vital role in The Order as a spy, he'd have to be trusted for that.

As for Umbridge's comment, I agree that Snape would have to keep up some kind of act with the Malfoy's so not to raise too much suspicion. I doubt Lucius Malfoy even knew Snape had renounced Voldemort until GoF.

[illuminati]

I still think Snape had a thing for Lily, and Voldemort killing Lily gave Snape every reason to become turncoat and why DD would so whole-heartedly trust Snape without question

[migo]

^ I still think Malfoy is the weak link in all of this. He trusts Snape and Snape takes advantage of that.

Snape isn't to be fully trusted but I like him exactly because he never was one of those "Harry Rulez" kind of guy.

[Insomnia]

Severus can be trusted, I think. You all know perfectly if someone swapes sides he can't be completely trustforthy. However... Albus Dumbledore is not a person to be outwited. If Lord Voldemort who is almost as powerful as Dumbledore can't do that then someone like Severus Snape particularly can't do it. And I really trust that Severus has his full loyalty for Albus.
I only wish to know what is so convincing for Headmaster...

About Sev and Lucius: it's very useful to have a friend like Lucius Malfoy in these days, isn't it? I mean- not real friend. Maybe Severus managed to convice Lucius with something, I suppose? Maybe he make Malfoy believe he is spying on Dumbledore and he gives Lucius false informations?

[Severely Snapped]

Originally posted by Andromeda_Black (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=470310#post470310))
Ive said this before but why does everyone attach so much importance to Dumbledore trusting him? Dumbledore has been wrong before.


Because any other time that DD has been wrong, he has indicated either before or after the fact that he had some doubts along the way. It is made abundantly clear that DD has NO doubts about Snape's trustworthiness. His words make it clear--"He is now no more a Death Eater than I am"--and more importantly, his actions: he would never let Snape assume the duties he has for the Order if he had any doubts about him at all.

And (GODImgetting tiredofsayingthis) Rowling never said we shouldn't trust Snape, she said we should keep an eye on him...which she's been saying for five years now.

[desecre_demorte]

Just curious, but when has JK Rowling said that we shouldn't put too much trust in Severus Snape? I know she's said something along the lines of "But don't think Snape is too nice..." and "Keep your eyes on old Professor Snape...." but she never outright says to not trust the character. I know there was recently an interview/Question/Answer session with one of the essay winners of the whole JK Rowling appearance deal, and he said Snape isn't to be trusted...but perhaps that is simply his interpretation of the phrase "Don't think Snape is too nice..."

I personally think Snape can be trusted. His character and goodness has been thrown into doubt time and time again (especially in the Philosophers Stone and Order of the Phoenix)--and he has come through on several occasions. Yet people continue to doubt him...lol.

Cheers,
Desecre Demorte

[Angora]

I think he can be trusted in certain situations, and generally the more important it is, the more trust I would place in him.

That is to say, in his role fighting Voldemort, I would trust him, but if we were just sitting around and he said "Here, drink this" you'd better believe I wouldn't drink it.

The only exception is that he has a personal little neurosis about how people were mean to him in school, so sometimes when he's in a situation that reminds him of that (the end of PoA, or whenever Harry speaks :) ) he doesn't exercise the best judgement.

His relationship with Lucius confuses me, mostly because I don't feel like I really understand Lucius. And I can't think of a time we've ever seen them interact in the books. Have we?

[Andromeda_Black]

Severely Snapped- when did Dumbledore indicate that he had doubts about Quirrel and Wormatail? he let Quirrel teach and Wormtail join the order which was a big mistake! He thought that someone in the order was a spy but i dont ever remember him saying that he suspected Wormtail.

My reasons for not trusting Snape are just based on things in the books and an instinct. I dont take any notice of wat JK sais, i think she likes to play with us and put us of the scent so i would probably be more suspicious if she said, "Oh snape, he's great isnt he!"

[harp230]

As far as I remember we only hear of them interacting from someone else's perspective. Like Draco, or Umbridge or Sirius, and we really cant trust their judgements. All of them have their own agendas and opinions so we can not gauge their intrepretations as solid evidence as the the nature of Snape and Lucius relationship. Dumbledore does trust Snape highly and we can have faith in that. Ultimately, Snape will do the righ thing even if he is a jerk about it before then.

[[Pretty]_[Unicorn]]

Snape probably still thinks highly of Voldemort but is aware of the things he has done which are downright evil making him switch sides. Voldemort has done horrible but great things (Olivanders). Snape respects the guy but won't fly the way Voldie flys. And Snape probably joined Voldemort to get rid of Lily Evans to hurt James as much as possible.

[Draco Serpensortia]

Well, I know that Snape is a fictional character and all but somehow, I believe he's indeed back on the good side of things. Unpleasant as he may be, it might just be the way he was around the Dark Lord and the other Death Eaters, and because he knows full well that the children of some Death Eaters are in his House, he's putting up a sort of front in front of them, in case their parents ask about his disposition or personality. But even I doubt my thoughts.

[vickygirl4]

I think Snape joined Voldemort to get power and respect. But he didn't really know what he was getting into. As soon as he saw all of the horrors that Voldemort was doing, he went back to DD. I really believe that Snape is on the good side now. I doubted him for the first four books, but now for some reason I trust him. Offcourse, with my luck, now that I think he's good he will probably turn out bad.

[ninakix]

i dunno. he did do a lot to save harry's life. he couldve easily lead harry straight into the hands of voldemort by now, dont you think?
but then again, we do notice that he really hasnt done THAT MUCH since voldemort has come back.

[STaRRy MaRauDeR]

*yay the forums are back* anyways...now that thats said and done...i really dont trust our good ol' buddy snape...but then *and dont shoot me for this* im not so sure how much i trust dumbledore's opinion anymore...he didnt tell harry about the prophecy which would have saved my precious sirius. he just trusted that everything would be ok still even without harry's knowledge of trewlawny's prophecy. since he screwed up on that *and yes i know that nobody's perfect* can he really be trusted to know who snape is really spying for? i say no :no:

[jasper]

Mr. Malfoy speaks highly of Snape to Dolores Umbridge/ the ministry. What does that mean? Does that really mean that Malfoy trusts Snape and thinks highly of him? Malfoy is in the business of lying to the ministry.

Malfoy speaking highly of Snape could just be Malfoy schmoozing up, trying to secure favors for his kid, and trying to sound like a supporter of the ministry effort at school reform.

What is Malfoy going to tell Umbridge if he in fact doesn't trust Snape? He can't say, "That Snape is a dirty double crosser. It makes me so mad that he's working against my pal Voldy."

So, anyway, no matter what Snape is up to, we are unlikely to hear Malfoy badmouthing him for it.

[avada_kedavra]

But what if Umbridge was on Voldemort's side? If Umbridge and Lucius both are on Voldy's side, then why can't Lucius speak of Snape as he wants to? I think that Umbridge just wanted to make Snape THINK about possibly Umbridge and Lucius being on to him, and maybe getting caught.

[vickygirl4]

I don't think Umbridge was on Voldemort's side. She was evil, but like Sirius said, the world is not divided into good people and death eaters. SHe is too proud and selfish to serve Voldemort.

[MadMagic]

I would like to trust him, actually I completely trust him. But I don't know if we can in the future. JK said (at least I am pretty sure she did) that we shouldn't be feeling so sorry for him (because of his Worst Memory), which leads me to think that he will do something that will make us not want to trust him anymore. Hopefully whatever is going to make us not feel sorry for him anymore took place in the past, but we don't really know.

For now though, I think we can trust him.

[Severely Snapped]

Mr. Malfoy speaks highly of Snape to Dolores Umbridge/ the ministry. What does that mean? Does that really mean that Malfoy trusts Snape and thinks highly of him? Malfoy is in the business of lying to the ministry.

Malfoy speaking highly of Snape could just be Malfoy schmoozing up, trying to secure favors for his kid, and trying to sound like a supporter of the ministry effort at school reform.

What is Malfoy going to tell Umbridge if he in fact doesn't trust Snape? He can't say, "That Snape is a dirty double crosser. It makes me so mad that he's working against my pal Voldy."

So, anyway, no matter what Snape is up to, we are unlikely to hear Malfoy badmouthing him for it.

All excellent points. But I have a question: is Malfoy speaking "highly" of Snape to Umbridge personally, or is this just what she's getting trickle-down from Fudge? Because if Malfoy is singing Snape's praises to Fudge, I'm VERY confused. Fudge KNOWS Snape is supporting Dumbledore; Snape showed him his Dark Mark at the end of GoF ("I don't know what you and your staff are playing at, Dumbledore...") and told him DD was right, that the Dark Lord had returned.

Now, Fudge doesn't trust DD, so why on earth would he trust Snape, no matter what Malfoy said?

[Severus15]

I theink Snape's still on the good side. Moreover, I think he was that spy that alerted Lily and James Potter about Voldemort comming after them so that they could perform the Fidelius Charm to protect themselves. In The Prisoner of Azkaban, McGonnagall tells Madam Rosmerta that it was a spy that found out about Voldemort comming after them. Snapes really the only spy we know so the idea seems plausable.

Severus15:evil:

"You should have realized that if Voldemort didn't kill you, we would. Goodbye, Peter."

"The crumple-horned snorkack can't fly!"

[TiffW04]

""Then there's characters like Snape, who are bad but there is a certain ambiguity about him. You can't quite decide because there's something quite sad about him. Something very lonely. We're slowly (after five books) getting the idea that maybe he is not so bad after all.

JK Rowling:
Yes, but you shouldn't think he's too nice. Let me just say that. It is worth keeping an eye on old Severus Snape, definitely.

^That's from the webcast with J.K. Rowling a couple of days ago.""

Do you have a link to that interview?

[paradoxpanda]

"Only the death eaters call V the Dark Lord (ytes, Ludo Bagman included). "

I might be wrong, but in PoA I think Sibyll Trelawney calls him the Dark Lord when she's making her prediction.

We all know Snape was once a Death Eater. So what if he didn't stop calling Voldemort the Dark Lord?


I like Snape in general, but it was in PoA that he was genuinely slimy. Assuming he WAS a spy for Voldemort before his downfall, he knew that Sirius was innocent, and he still tried to get him put in Azkaban. That's all that we really have against him.

[xx-adele-xxx]

i agree with u, why does dumbledore trust snape so much? well, i think he trusts snape because snape isnt all he thinks he is. i think snape puts on an act. i think that deep dwon, he isnt as bad as he makes out he is. i know that sounds stupid but it is what i think. and that is why dumbledore trusts him, coz dumbledore knows the real snape. dumbledore is bery wise and i think he knows best. if he suspected at all that snape was still workin for voldemort, he would certainly sack snape hterefore i dont think snape is still working for voldemort and i think he is trustworthy. plz reply.

[Cosmos]

So many possibilities here.
First of all, correct me if I'm wrong. Didn't Dumbledore say that he gives everyone a second chance? It's been a while since I read the earlier books, so I'm kinda rusty.
But I do have a feeling snape will turn bad again, only because he still calls Voldemort the Dark Lord.
But I could (and probably am) totally wrong. It might be the totally opposite, he could end up really helping harry in the end, and even die saving him (maybe I'm getting too far here)

[Severely Snapped]

"What made you believe he'd really stopped supporting Voldemort?"
"That, Harry, is a matter between Professor Snape and myself."

Obviously, we don't know what "that" is (or was), but with a setup like that, it has to be big. I can't wait to find out more about this. :agree:

Oh, and Rowling would NEVER tell us to "keep an eye" on a character if she's planning some major shocking plot twist around him or her. It's not her style. Can you imagine how it would have spoiled GoF, for example, if she'd said, "It's worth keeping an eye on old Mad-Eye Moody?"

[paradoxpanda]

Back to the Dark Lord thing, Trelawney does call him the Dark Lord in her prediction, Kreacher calls him the Dark Lord (I forget where, but I remember that distinctly). For anyone who knows the books particularly well, does Karkaroff refer to him as the Dark Lord? Because he's ALSO an ex-Death Eater.

[Prosperine]

I think Snape did something to save someone else, which he probably risked his own life to do, which is why Dumbledore trusts him. I think the thing JKR refers to us having to keep an eye on is the fact that it is quite obvious that Snape has a VERY dark past and there may be several things that he has done that are downright evil.

The Death Eaters in the dept of mystery (OotP) reacted very strongly when Harry said Voldemort's name. They're just as afraid as everyone else of using it. And if Snape knew or even suspected he would have to return to associating with them someday, why would he get out of the habit of refering to Voldie as the Dark Lord?? If he slipped, then he might be killed, and I would be sad with no Snape around! ;)

[hesdead-dealwithit]

I think Snape did something to save someone else, which he probably risked his own life to do, which is why Dumbledore trusts him. I think the thing JKR refers to us having to keep an eye on is the fact that it is quite obvious that Snape has a VERY dark past and there may be several things that he has done that are downright evil.

Several? He was a Death Eater, for crying out loud. He's probably killed or tortured dozens! At heart, probably, he is a good person, which is why DD trusts him, but on the surface, he probably succumbed to some sort of peer pressure and joined the DEs. And you can't be a Death Eater without doing some evil stuff.

[[Pretty]_[Unicorn]]

I think Snape proved himself in OotP because somewhere in the book DD said Snape is doing some very dangerous work (wonder what it can be). But he has always struck me as being evil. He past seems to make him what he is in the future and HP being James's son, and James who played a lot of tricks on Snape and even saved his life but Snape won't admit it, Snape wants to get back whatever way he can. I have my doubts on Snape and really actually hate him.

[Angora]

I don't think there was some dramatic gesture that made Dumbledore trust Snape. I think it's just a matter of Dumbledore being very good at understanding people.

I think if at some point DE Snape approched him and indicated (intentionally or unintentionally) that the whole DE thing was kind of upsetting him, Dumbledore would have trusted that.

I think Snape is trustworthy as far as the larger issues go. But there'll probably be something smaller that he'll cop out on because of his personal issues.

[purplehawk]

I don't like Snape at all. I felt a bit sorry for him when James and Sirius were tormenting him. I felt admiration for the way he discussed matters with Harry at the beginning of their occlumency lessons. These things are outweighed in my mind, however, by the way he set out to make Harry pay for James from Harry's first day at Hogwarts. Snape is a good teacher in terms of knowledge... but that doesn't change the fact he is a hopelessly flawed person.

[Jill]

I don't like Snape at all. I felt a bit sorry for him when James and Sirius were tormenting him. I felt admiration for the way he discussed matters with Harry at the beginning of their occlumency lessons. These things are outweighed in my mind, however, by the way he set out to make Harry pay for James from Harry's first day at Hogwarts. Snape is a good teacher in terms of knowledge... but that doesn't change the fact he is a hopelessly flawed person.


Yes but sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind. I think this is what Snape has been doing all along with Harry. I think its more than just a grudge caused by past wrongs with James. Everyone else moddlecoddles Harry and really thats not preparing him to face Voldermort, thats shielding Harry from what he needs and has to face. Snape on the other hand gives Harry a bit on insight into what Voldermorts personality is like. If Harry can not cope with Snapes tauntings then what chance does he have with Voldermort. I am not saying that Snape has help Harry out intensionally but he has taught him how to hold his tongue and be patient even at the worst of times.

[purplehawk]

Yes but sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind. I think this is what Snape has been doing all along with Harry. I think its more than just a grudge caused by past wrongs with James. Everyone else moddlecoddles Harry and really thats not preparing him to face Voldermort, thats shielding Harry from what he needs and has to face. Snape on the other hand gives Harry a bit on insight into what Voldermorts personality is like. If Harry can not cope with Snapes tauntings then what chance does he have with Voldermort. I am not saying that Snape has help Harry out intensionally but he has taught him how to hold his tongue and be patient even at the worst of times.

Snape has also taught Harry hate, cruelty, utter disregard for fairness, and sheer loathing - traits more associated with the dark side than the good. No way will I ever believe Snape's behavior is intended to help Harry grow strong. Snape would love nothing better than the pound Harry into the ground.

[Jill]

Snape has also taught Harry hate, cruelty, utter disregard for fairness, and sheer loathing - traits more associated with the dark side than the good. No way will I ever believe Snape's behavior is intended to help Harry grow strong. Snape would love nothing better than the pound Harry into the ground.

Yes but then so has Voldermort before hand, so Snape really hasn't taught him those qualities, Tom and Voldermort have. Even so Harry now has a better understanding of where Voldermort gains his powers from. So Snape is teaching Harry to expect the worst from Voldermort and also where to hit him the hardest because Harry now knows where Voldermorts power comes from.

Harry has learnt to restrain himself from Snapes teachings proving that he is capable and has the potential to defeat Voldermort himself. Thats why Snape tells Harry that he is no match for the Dark Lord if he doesn't even try to hold back on his emotions. Not in those such words but thats what Snape was trying to teach him in OotP and possibly all along throught out the books.

I just hope she doesn't kill Snape off in the next book, if she does I won't cope and I will not be able to continue with the series. It would be too devestating for me.

Besides Snape has also taught Harry that no matter how much you dislike someone, you can never stand by and see them die. Snapes saved Harrys life so many times, I have lost count. This is actually something good in Snapes character, he would never allow a student to be harmed in anyway and would put himself infrount of any danger instead. Thats why Dumbledore trust Snape so much.

[purplehawk]

You know what? I don't buy that at all. Sorry! Snape's intentions relative to Harry are NOT altruistic. No way.

[Jill]

You know what? I don't buy that at all. Sorry! Snape's intentions relative to Harry are NOT altruistic. No way.


What does altruistic mean.

And Snape saves Harrys life so many times, I have lost count. So how can that make Snape a bad person. He is a bit confused yes and probably with good reason but he is not a bad person. He would give his life to save a child or pupil at Hogwarts and that is why Dumbledore trusts Snape so much.

[tabby]

Snape would love nothing better than the pound Harry into the ground.

We know that's not true because Snape has saved Harry's life on a number of occasions. In Philosophers Stone, and again indirectly in OotP. Snape does hate Harry, but he doens't want him dead.

[purplehawk]

Snape saved Harry because of the life debt he owes Harry's father. Left to his own devices, Snape wouldn't have lifted a hand.

al·tru·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ltr-zm)
n.
Unselfish concern for the welfare of others; selflessness.

I'm unsubscribing from this thread. I don't wanna get into a debate on Snape.

[tabby]

Snape repaid that life debt in PS. He didn't have to do anything in OotP.

[Jill]

Snape saved Harry because of the life debt he owes Harry's father. Left to his own devices, Snape wouldn't have lifted a hand.

al·tru·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ltr-zm)
n.
Unselfish concern for the welfare of others; selflessness.

I'm unsubscribing from this thread. I don't wanna get into a debate on Snape.


But Snape returned the life dept the first time he saved Harrys life, so why did he carry on saving Harrys life after that. He does care I just think, he can't show that he does to Harry because of Lucious Malfoys son Draco being present. Draco would run and tell daddy dearest that Snapes not treating Harry the way a DE should.

Oh and thanks for the interpretation of altruism. Thats a new word I shall add to my list, me thinks.

By the way Tabby you beat but you got the same idea, sorry.

[Pyro Duo]

Snape is one of those gray characters. He may be bad and evil to Harry and all Gryffindor characters, but the man has a good heart. He felt truely bad about the deaths that he caused and what not. Snape is sincere I don't think he'll be a trader unless someone :censored: up royally.

Also about the bit of Snape and Lucius Malfoy still being friends. Malfoy is obviously a Death Eater and thinks Snape is still one. So I'm assuming that Snape probally kept contact with him incase old Volvo came back to life.(and look he did wow!!) Either that or he truely enjoyed Lucius companionship. Though the later is probally truer. Considering he's so nice to Draco Malfoy(unles Draco is there to spy on Snape and make sure that Snape is in line. And that's the real reason Malfoy's at Hogwarts and not Dumstrang)

[MadMagic]

I think so far Dumbledore has been right to trust Harry. But when JK said something about us not feeling sorry for Snape after the next book or something (I have no idea where I heard that), that kind of changed my mind.
I don't think he is bad necessarily in regards to Voldemort, I just don't know that I would trust him implicitly the way Dumbledore seems to now.

[OrbitingElle]

Dumbledore tells Harry that we have spies working for us, I think it's fairly obvious that it's Snape. Snape will most likely go back to being a "death eater" in the next book, but I think he's working for us, giving information to Dumbledore.

Just because Snape is a jerk doesn't make him evil... kind of like Percy Weasley (Who I'm guessing will become a corrupt politician, not a Voldemort supporter.)

[Severely Snapped]

Several? He was a Death Eater, for crying out loud. He's probably killed or tortured dozens! At heart, probably, he is a good person...

Um...how can you reconcile being "a good person at heart" with killing and torturing "dozens" of people?

I believe Snape has a dark past (well, duh, right?) but I don't believe throwing Unforgivables around left and right was ever part of it. I don't believe even Dumbledore could forgive cold-blooded murder. And I do believe that if Snape were capable of such things, he never would have left Voldemort in the first place. Why risk your own life to betray the old psycho when you have no moral compunctions about what he requires you to do?

I'm sure that part of the reason DD trusts Snape is that he recognized, perhaps even before Severus himself did, that Snape isn't cut from the same cloth as people like Malfoy and Bellatrix...no matter how much he may want to be! :lol:

[Barbara Kennedy]

Or how much he's been told he is throughout his life.

[BeautifullyM]

Welcome, and your English is great!

I think there is a reason that Dumbldore trusts Snape. I just have no clue as to why. I think it has something to do with the "great personal risk" Snape took to turn to the good side.

I believe the same Jerb.

[jaffa_16uk]

Snape is a tough character. I hate him for the attitude he has towards Harry, but the flashbacks in Order made me pity him. James & Sirius were horrible to him and in a strange way, he wanted to be them. He wanted popularity and fame. He hates Harry because of James and he hates him because he reminds him of the popularity he never could get. And although he'd be an obvious choice to label a traitor or untrustworthy person, DD has a strange trust in him. I also trust DD to do the right thing, he has admitted his mistakes in Order but I think Snape should be trusted. In the end, I believe he will probably die protecting Harry, which makes his life all the more saddening. :sad:

[Serpentine]

Here's another suggestion, connected to the idea of Snape being a double agent that popped up somewhere. Maybe he got his advanced Potions training at Hogwarts, and Voldemort had "suggested" to him to spy on DD before even sending him there. He would have taught Snape Occlumency to avoid being discovered by DD. But after some time something prompted Snape to change his mind about his master, so he went to DD and dropped his mind barriers to reveal the truth to him. And that's why DD trusts Snape. DD, kind as he is, wouldn't kick him out, but see the opportunity for the Order and ask Snape to spy the other way round, on his previous master Voldemort. And Voldemort wouldn't be able to find out that his own Occlumentic spy has turned sides.

[Hood Teacher]

ok Snape ain't the brightest diamond in the jewlery store but if Dumbledore trust him well i'll give him a good 50% of my trust cause of dumbledore also the fab 3 have been accusing Snape in every single book of doing sumthing wrong and well he hasn't he did look for harry in the forest he did use that countercurse when quirrel was trying to kill him also ok I hate him about the same as the rest of us who hate him here but the only why he is actually gonna prove he still with Lord Voldemort is when he does until then he only get's 50%

[mina]

I have said this before on another thread (I really can't remember which one), but I think that Snape is truly a "good guy". He just tends to let his emotions get in the way of his judgement. I will say this though, he is one incredible character to have kept us guessing all this time.

[Edward Lupin]

come on guys, give him a chance.. maybe he hated James as well as harry.. but that doesnt mean Dumbledore can't trust him..besides, Hermoine said that if we couldnt trust Dumbledore, whoelse could we trust?

[Edward Lupin]

come on guys, give him a chance.. maybe he hated James as well as harry.. but that doesnt mean Dumbledore can't trust him..besides, Hermoine said that if we couldnt trust Dumbledore, whoelse could we trust?
---> sorry i mean, Snape hated James and Harry.. :P ;)

[Discordia]

On the one hand I do trust Snape and on the other I have a feeling that when Harry's back is turned he might serve him up on a platter like a roast rack of lamb.

Rowling said that Dumbledore never gave Snape the DADA job because she was afraid it would bring out the worst in him. I figured that maybe this meant Snape had done something horrible in his past and by keeping the job from hin Dumbledore was putting a stopper on what ever he feared might come out in Snape. He's probably the best and the worst person possible to teach them. Good bc he knows soo much about the Dark Arts but bad bc it would probably be hard for the students especialy Harry and Neville to actually learn anything. He tried to teach Harry occulmency and that ended in disaster. Neville can barely get his act together in potions class. Harry and Snape don't trust eachother. Besides if he did become the DADA teacher I'm sure there would always be that risk of Snape trying to curse Harry during the class or use him for demonstration and than of course Harry would retaliate and there'd be chaos. No, If Snape taught that class it would do more harm than good. Just bc he wants the job doesn't mean he'll get it.



Dumbledore trusts Snape even though he knows he's an ex deatheater. Everyone around them is also pertubed as to why he signed Snape on. Sirius couldn't understand it, Ron and Harry don't trust Snape, and others don't either. However has anyone noticed how people seem to refer to Snape with alot of respect. Dumbledore always reminds Harry to adress Snape as professor and so does Mrs.Weasley. Besides Sirius it seems like few other people truly have any qualms about him. Hermione trusts Snape bc Dumbledore does and she's the only one of the trio that's convinced of this. Ron believes that Snape is truly evil but knowing how well he judges character doesn't really make him a reliable source. Hermione is an excellent judge of character so I think we should listen to her more. Everyone seems to trust Snape. Hagrid does, Dumbledore does,Mcgonagall does, the Order does. The matter of Snape's loyalty seems to be kept between Dumbledore and Snape and it seems as if no one else but those at the MoM who Dumbledore presented the evidence of Snape's past knows what's really going on. No way in Hell would Snape tell Harry about his past and open up to him. Dumbledore is probably going to keep everything under wraps but after what's happened Harry might want more facts and he might feel obligated to tell Harry. Either Dumbledore will tell him or Harry will find out through a third party.

What ever Snape did to switch sides like that must have been for a pretty good reason. Dumbledore obviously trusts him so Snape's reason have got to be good. I think we can trust Snape to do his job....it's his manner with Harry that I don't trust. Snape may never have tried to physically harm him but the two of them haven't exactly been all hunkey-dorey and picking wild flowers together. I think Snape is loyal to Dumbledore. He showed Fudge his tatoo, he didn't go to Voldemort's rebirthing ceremony,he's obviously doing some sort of spy work and he's gone to great lengths to make sure that Harry stays alive. Sure he'd have loved to see him dead but Snape isn't going to go against Dumbledore and kill one of his students. Snape must have really had a turn around or something must have happened for the sudden change of heart.

It seems as if Voldemort kept the DE's identies hidden from eachother so that if one was caught than he wouldn't be able to bring the rest of them down with him. It's entirely possible that the DE's didn't know who Voldemort was talking about but than again how couldn't they? It seems like the DE's would have found out sooner or later.

A traitor for an alli is an enemy in waiting. Just some food for thought.

[SaveeSurpens]

Snape is a man of mystery. None of us are ever directly told what he's up to, and we are left to speculate and speculate and specaculate some more. What it boils down to is Occlumency/Legilimency skills. Snape, in his Slytherinlike spirit of self preservation, will naturally work for whomever is best at this mental skill. I have narrowed it down to the obvious three factions that he possibly works for: The Dark Lord, Dumbledore, and Himself. I will present both textual evidence and inferential evidence from the texts of the books, some of which are not at hand, so deal with the paraphrasing, please.

SNAPE FOR THE DARK LORD

Of course, this means that, out of the three, the Dark Lord is the most powerful at occ/leg. Snape could therefore not hide his intentions from the dark lord-he would be completely loyal. Snape would have to be the second most powerful at occ/leg or Dumbledore wouldn't trust him, much less let him in the Order or inside Hogwarts. This theory also implies that Snape was present at the Dark Lord's rebirthing party, which is a possible theory as well, and best argued in Snape Versus Time, an editorial under The North Tower on Mugglenet.com.
WHY THIS THEORY DOESN'T WORK: Dumbledore is revered famously as an extremely powerful wizard. It seems unlikely that JKR would make him the weakest of the three at Occlumency. If this was the case, Dumbledore would have probably met his downfall long ago, either at the Dark Lord's or Snapes' hands. Yet if Snape was weakest of the three, Dumbledore would find out via Legilimency Snape's true nature as a loyal Death Eater. He would never be at Hogwarts, in that case.

SNAPE FOR DUMBLEDORE

Dumbledore would be the best at occlumency, then. If Snape was second best at Occ/Leg, It would make sense for Dumbledore to have arranged for Snape to be at the Dark Lord's rebirthing party in order to spy. If it doesn't seem likely that the Dark Lord would be the weakest at Occlumency, you must take into account that he had just been reborn. Plus, he probably only developed his Occ/Leg powers only enough to deal with other Death Eaters. Severus could have spent the time from his reformation to the rebirth of the Dark Lord practicing Occ/Leg. At that time, the Dark Lord was only willing himself to exist, to gain back his old body.
This theory would also explain the still friendly faction Severus has with Lucius Malfoy. Yet, there is the fact that Snape had to return to the Dark Lord even whilst in Harry's first year, Snape foiled his former master again and again. Snape's explaination could have been that he was completely unaware of the Dark Lord's presence, and thought he was foiling Quirrell - Snape could have easily lied his way out of that without being caught, because in this adaptation of the theory, he is better at Occ/Leg than the Dark Lord. But, one might still argue that the Dark Lord does not easily forgive his followers for failure - and to that I scowl at my computer screen. See, I'm scowling and sneering quite viciously now. A very small fraction of the Death Eaters received actual physically harmful punishment for not looking for him before at his rebirthing party.
The Dark Lord might also actually want Snape back at all costs because of his close relationship with Dumbledore. He could be under the impression that Snape is in fact his spy on the inside. It would be easy for Snape to tell the Dark Lord that he is not often let in on Dumbledore's secrets, or a fat lot of other half-truths and false information - after all, whilst our favorite Potions Master is at Hogwarts, his mind cannot be broken into - no eye contact, and powerful protective spells surrounding the school prevent this (this is mentioned somewhere in OotP in one of Harry's Occlumency lessons by Snape, I think). Snape could therefore quite easily be a double agent who is actually working for Dumbledore.
Now, if Dumbledore was the most powerful at Occ/Leg, then the Dark Lord is second-most powerful, and then Snape the least, this completely destroys the idea that he could have returned as a Death Eater to spy for Dumbledore. The Dark Lord would see through our favorite potions master like a vial of Veritaserum and Avada-Kedavara'd him faster than Cho Chang is. (OOOOOH BURN! Please don't crucify me.) In this case, Snape would have to stay at Hogwarts all the time for fear of his mind being broken into, fear of all the fanatical Death Eaters who want his blood, plus, Lucius Malfoy would either hunt him down or make his opinion of Snape known, if not to the Dark Lord himself, then his son Draco. Lucius' views would instantly surface in Draco - as we know, Draco adopts all his father's ideas - about Purebloods, Dumbledore, the Weasleys - and unless something in Malfoy has changed - highly unlikely, but still a small possibility - Draco would be giving Snape endless trouble, sarcasm, embarassment, etc. Yet there Draco is, laughing along at his torment of Harry in OotP.
Also there is the infamously questionable scene at the Quidditch World Cup in GoF that corresponds with Snape's Worst Memory in OotP. An unnamed Death Eater flips a muggle woman upside down in midair in the former, as Snape was by James in the latter. It is quite the coincidence that this occurs, is it not? But, for all the skeptics I will only mark this as a possibility, and not as concrete evidence, as no clear connection is made in the texts.
Clearly some conclusions can be made from this evidence.
(1) In order to spy for Dumbledore, Snape must be more powerful than at least the Dark Lord as an Occlumist. Snape had to be able to hide his intentions to spy or otherwise.
(2) Snape must have returned to be a Death Eater. This makes perfect sense as he would be most useful for the Order, and would explain Severus and Lucius still being on good terms.
(3) Snape is more skilled in the art of Occlumency/Legilimency than the Dark Lord. Otherwise he would have been accosted as soon as he left Hogwarts or been killed when he went back to the Dark Lord for his rebirthing party. And yet...

SNAPE FOR HIMSELF
This is to assume that Severus Snape, our favorite potions master, has surpassed both Dumbledore and the Dark Lord in the arts of Occlumency and Legilimency. He is entirely self-intrested, and will double, triple, and quadruple his agency as a spy in order to be sure he is at the right hand of whomever is winning. He can fool either wizard into trusting him, as either could look into his mind and find nothing but loyalty, owing to his mastery of these mental arts. This seems a very open possibility, as we are only at least sure that Snape is more powerful than the Dark Lord, yet not necessarily Dumbledore.
WHY THIS THEORY IS WRONG: Let's take this from a chronology standpoint of Snape's life, starting as being a Death Eater. For this he would have to be loyal to the Dark Lord, or already be good enough to fool him. The latter notion is ridiculous - Snape would have been in his late teens or early twenties when he joined then renounced. Hardly enough time to master this art. So he had to be loyal at first, but he eventually was disillusioned with the life of Death Eaters before the Dark Lord actually found out the truth, or else, refer to the Cho-bashing simile above. A year before the fall of the Dark Lord, before James and Lily are killed, Snape renounces his ways and is taken in by Dumbledore. A year later the Dark Lord is nearly vansquished by Harry Potter. Snape then has fifteen odd years to practice Occ/Leg, without the Dark Lord's skills developing (Maybe I should draw a graph for this). The reason it is implausible that Snape is better than Dumbledore is because of Dumbledore's age - simply that he has practically decades more to develop his skills that even Severus cannot surpass, despite his intelligence and cunning. Yet, the same argument could be applied to the Dark Lord, that he was probably more skilled than Severus, even at the time of his downfall, and at least twenty years his senior. But perhaps just this margin was all Snape needed - after all, Dumbledore is about forty years older than the Dark Lord, which is too much to learn in fifteen years, of course, but perhaps twenty is just enough for our favorite potions master to catch up to. It seems like a stretch, but Snape's intellectual prowess was apparent at a very early age. Therefore, Snape has surpassed the Dark Lord, but not Dumbledore. He is truly loyal to Dumbledore.
But how did Snape reform a year before the Dark Lord's fall without experiencing his wrath when he returned at the rebirthing? Snape is useful; the Dark Lord could be thinking he is his loyal spy in the best position possible from which to watch his enemy. Snape is cunning; surely our favorite potions master could cook up a good one and easily drop it on the Dark Lord, reinforced by his superior Occlumency skill? Do not forget his mysterious method of reform either - although we have no concrete textual evidence of what exactly happpened, we can make inferences from what we know about the characters. It would have to have been pretty deft to just slip out from under the radar of the Dark Lord. This is open to a plethora of possibilities. The most likely scenario I can possibly think of is that Snape was definitely away from the Dark Lord when he began to have second thoughts (Off on a mission?), when he is converted or indebted, or whatever put him on Dumbledore's side, and somehow communicates to the Dark Lord without being in danger of his master's Legilimency, that he can spy for him at Hogwarts on Dumbledore. Or perhaps spying was his mission already, and Dumbledore broke him with his powerful mental prowess, using Snape as a weapon against the Dark Lord? All speculation, of course. But plausible, no?

Some skeptics may say then, still disregarding the absolute trainload of evidence to the contrary I have just presented, that Snape is EVIL. "He's bad! He tortures Hermione and Harry and Neville and Ron! Why does he hate them? Huh? That means he HAS to be EVIL. I mean he looks pretty evil. And I don't understand him. And those big long paragraphs were too much so I just skimmed all of what you said and looked at all the capitalized letters. Snape hates Harry! HE HAS TO BE EVIL!" To them I say "Puddles." Just to clear their minds first. Then I would say something along the lines of this next paragraph:
Snape is a dark, bitter, grudging person whose painful past makes him a dementor's feast. Being just like him, I find it hard to beleive that he hates Harry for other than the fact that he resembles both his father James, and himself. Right after Snape's worst memory, Harry finds himself empathizing with Snape, for the humiliation he experienced at school in his key years of personality development, and for his broken family life, feelings of anger, alienation, loneliness. And Snape hates Harry for being like him because he, like all people of this type, hate themselves. Imagine a living miniature of yourself walks into your life that shares every pathetic trait you have - everthing you hate about yourself embodied in this person. This is what Harry is to Snape, only different...better. Harry possesses the successfulness, talent, bravery and arrogance Snape hated about James. To have only a limited social life as Snape did, each event, good or bad, counts for more in Snape's mind, than someone with such an expanded social life that they can easily find something good to quash their bad events with. But Snape...the negative events are magnified by years of a lack of resolution. Even after about twenty years, Snape hates each Maurader vociferously. He probably sees their personalities manifest themselves in Harry's group, in his own twisted, corrupted way: Hermione is Lupin, Harry is James, Ron equates to Sirius, and Neville equals Pettigrew. Don't even try to argue that Severus doesn't hate Wormtail just because they were both Death Eaters. Would you, a dark, begrudged, embittered person, be particularly neutral to the scum who drooled and cheered with rapture for the boy who flung you upside down in midair and exposed your no-no spot to everyone, grinding into powder the shattered pieces of your social life? If you said yes, you must be one of those people who identify with Percy or Lockhart, or Cho Chang. For you I harbor no pity. Please refer to the Cho-Bashing simile again.

Hence, from what evidence I have gathered and interpreted to the best of my ability, is conducive toward the theory that Snape has returned to the Dark Lord as a spy for Dumbledore, the Dark Lord being conscious of Snape's fruitful position for spying; that Dumbledore is the foremost powerful at the art of Occlumency, Snape the second best, and the Dark Lord the least skilled of the three in this respect. Any TEXT BASED evidence to support or disprove this theory would be greatly appreciated, as I am open to only the truth, and will adopt the truth if I am proven wrong.

Savvy?

[Muggical Me]

Well, personally I don't think Snape will turn out to have been working for Voldie all this time. I do think that should Dumbledore die.. all bets are off. The way Snape talks about Dumbledore and Voldemort in one of the Occlumency sessions makes me think of his loyalty in a bit of a Pettigrew-esk light.

[canteurervan]

There's no way that Snape will return to become spy on Voldermort for Dumbledore. Voldermort, DD and Snape are masters of (Legimens/Occul), and Voldermort said that he will kill Snape eventually for betraying him. Snape won't be stupid enough to return to Voldermort. However, I bet Snape is more powerful than any death eaters alive. He must have found ways to pribe information out of them.

However things turn out, Snape is loyal to Dumbledore. The story behind the reason why isn't clear. I believe this will becomes clear in the following books. Though there's no explaination toward why, but my best guess is Dumbledore must have shown Snape the truth. Which truth is this?...well, serving Voldermort is the lifetime service, dead or alive. Being deatheaters mean either being killed by Aurors, or being killed by Voldermort himself once you make mistakes. So, choosing not to serve Voldermort gives you choice of freedom. The only way to die is being killed by Voldermort. (of course, except you die of old age).

Obviously, the best choice is not to serve Voldermort.

***van.

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My Website (http://cs.wisc.edu/~hiep)
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http://cs.wisc.edu/~hiep/images/hermy.jpg

[rotsiepots]

I think on some level Dumbledore trusts Snape because he has to. If Dumbledore didn't trust Snape, he would probably revert to his old habits, or may never have returned from Voldemort's fold in the first place. Dumbledore's unyielding faith in Snape gives many others within the magical community the reassurance to trust Snape too; without Dumbledore's "seal of approval" (so to speak) Snape would probably be an unemployed outcast who would almost inevitably return to Voldemort.

I think on some level Dumbledore understands this and that's why he invests his trust in Snape.

[SaveeSurpens]

Where is this written, that the Dark Lord says he wants Snape dead?

And how do you explain Snape's ongoing friendly relationship with Lucius Malfoy? Even if there is not a scene where they are together, it is reflected in Draco.

I wanna see some page numbers or chapters or something.

And did you not read my post? I just explained that Snape, the Dark Lord, and Dumbledore's relationship and interactions depend fully on their relative powers of Legilimency/Occlumency. Please read carefully so I don't have to repeat myself. Savvy?

[Muggical Me]

Where is this written, that the Dark Lord says he wants Snape dead?

Well, it never says that definately Snape is the one that Voldemort mentions in his speach to the Death Eaters. In order for Snape not to have been one of the Death Eaters mentioned he would have had to have been in the graveyard (which wouldn't have been too hard) but there was lack of time for him to do everything in which we saw him. He would have had to have made a portkey to get out of Hogwarts (which would have been possible to do in a hurry) but then after Harry escaped Snape was with Dumbledore when they barged into Crouch's office. How could he have gotten back in time to join up with Dumbledore and McGonagall? Also I would think on Voldemort's night of return there would have been a bit more discussion... especially after Harry escaped which would have really screwed up any plans Voldemort already had and I highly doubt any excuse to leave would have been taken.

Just so you know, your theory is a good one and well thought out, but it's not the handguide to Snape... so no need to jump down other's throats.

[SaveeSurpens]

If its a matter of time you are concerned with, then be my guest to read this (http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/thenorthtower/nt16.shtml). It addresses your argument about time. I mentioned this article in my long post.
I re-read a part of GoF, in the Pensieve chapter, in the scene where Karkaroff is on trial and naming names of Death Eaters, and he mentions Snape. In response, Dumbledore says:

"I have given evidence already on this matter. Severus Snape was indeed a Death Eater. However, he rejoined our side before Lord Voldemort's downfall and turned spy for us, at great personal risk. He is now no more a death eater than I am."

This means that:
1) The reformation of Snape was something that could be proven with irrefutable, concrete evidence, something more than just Dumbledore or Snape's words, as the Ministry would be highly skeptical of it.
2) Snape, at least at this point in time, was a spy FOR DUMBLEDORE.
3) The great personal risk involved shows his loyalty for Dumbledore. It still could be a Pettigrewesque type of loyalty, in that he might cut off his own hand to stay on the winning side.
But, I assure you that there is little Snape, or even the Dark Lord, could do to fool Dumbledore. I think he knows who to trust. The concrete textual evidence, in every book, on almost every page, is right there, waiting to be analyzed just a bit deeper. The answers are there, in the books! This is one of those moments, like in the movies, where we all put our hands in the middle and yell "Go-Team," but seeing as that's more or less physically impossible, and kind of dumb, I'll settle for people just using textual evidence, with at least a vague reference to where it is found in the books. I don't mean to be mean; it just happens when people don't consider the evidence.
Here's what you do for me to consider you seriously: Instead of saying, "I don't think he's this or that because of a personal convicton or hunch," say, "Snape is truly evil because he does this in chapter whatever of book whatever, and this means that he is evil because blah blah blah." Then we can have an intellectual discussion, which is more fun than having to redirect you to my very long post which more or less proves that Snape is working for Dumbledore as a spying, but not true Death Eater since GoF.
Savvy...?

[nightingale]

You have really good evidence supporting what you're saying in your posts, SaveeSurpens, but I don't understand why you give Occlumency and Legilimency such a main part. I do understand their importance, but I don't think they have such a role in determining who Snape is working for. He doesn't have to be better than DD or V to be able to block them from his mind. After all, it's not like anyone expected Harry to be better than V at this, he just has to be able to do it sufficiently.

And no need to be so harsh in replying to people, it's a friendly place, after all :).

[NeuroComp]

I agree with savy only partially.
I do not think it both legimens and occlumens matters but rather one or the toher. You have to separate the two. One is the ability to read minds the other is the ability to close ones mind to readers. Being better in one does not necessarily mean your better in the other as your post seems to indicate.
Notice how they are not teaching harry legimens.

I do however believe your notion of the order amongst the 3 has some say.
I mean if snape is the best occlumist but dumbledore is the best legimenist
perhaps dumbledore is still able to read his mind. So it is here that I must say the power of the legimens takes priority. Because if you are able to read anyones mind then you can (this is just a matter of opinion). In order for snape to go back to Voldie his occlumens must be more powerful then
voldies legimens skills but inorder for dumbledore to put so much trust in snapes I believe dumbledore must have more power as a legimens then snape does as an occlumist.

Going back to why dumbledore trusts snapes...some one posted that snape saved ADs life thats why AD trusts him so much...but i beg to differ, its the
other way around. AD saved snapes life thats why AD trusts snape so much.
Somone posted its similar to pettigrew and harry. We know that the DEs were being hunted and of courses many were captured others were killed like the paragraph about the prewitts who took out 5. We also no that AD is the one feared most by the dark lord. So if snape fears voldie he's bound to fear
AD but of course we don't know if he feared voldie. Now why would snapes convert back to the good side 1-2 years before the down fall of voldie.
It is mostlikely that AD caught him and spared him.
However who knows

maybe 1) snapes is under the imperious curse by AD
2) maybe they are related
3) maybe AD was really nice to snapes in school as he is to everyone esle

But in order to change sides with the 2 most powerful wizards leading each group it'd have to be a life threatening situation


AS FOR snapes not getting DADA job...my opinion is that AD knew that snapes would have it out for HP and was afraid he would sway HP awawy from learning DADA(look at potions class). I would really like to see JKR put snapes as the DADA teacher for book 7. Snapes must come to terms
with HP and to teach him all he knows.

[Muggical Me]

SaveeSurpens, I don't know if I said before, but I have always believed, like you said that "Snape for Dumbledore" is the current situation, however I don't think Snape was at the rebirthing of Voldemort, that is all.

For starters, towards the end of GoF, in the hospital wing, Dumbledore says to Snape "Severus, you know what I must ask you to do, if you are ready.. if you are prepared". That doesn't make it sound much like Snape has already been to see his old pal Voldie. Also if he was at the rebirthing one would think Dumbledore would have had him along to listen to Harry's story to be certain all the facts were straight. Furthermore, Snape shows Fudge his Dark Mark, attempting to show Fudge the truth. If Snape was going to show his Dark Mark and show that he is not loyal to Voldemort (by showing Voldie's returned) couldn't he just as well have said "I was there also and Potter's story is true"?

I think Snape might have returned to Voldemort, which I've only recently started to believe purely because of the line Dumbledore said to him that I mentioned above. Perhaps Snape could have convinced Voldemort that he simply could not have gotten away from the school when his Dark Mark burned but managed to reach Voldemort as soon as he possibly could without drawing notice to himself. If Snape wasn't going to go have a little chat with Voldemort after leaving Dumbledore in the hospital wing it would be very hard to explain Snape looking paler than usual, or his eyes glittering strangely, or furthermore, why Dumbledore looked apprehensive.

Those are my beliefs, I have read your posts, and you are more than welcome to try to prove otherwise. So I do hope you can keep your arrogance at bay so we can have... what was it you said? An intellectual discussion.

[ami padme]

Hope this isn't too redundant, just wanted to add my two cents...


I think Snape is loyal to Dumbledore, and to the "right side" in the war generally. I don't expect that we'll find out in later books that he's double-crossed Dumbledore or betrayed him, or that he's directly or purposefully done anything to help Voldemort, the Death Eaters, or the "bad guys" in general. So, as far as Dumbledore trusts him on being loyal to him and being on the right side, I think the Headmaster's correct.


But -- and this is a big BUT -- Snape's moral clarity on the war or personal attachment to Dumbledore doesn't translate into positives across the board. Snape, even though he's on the right side, is still a angry, bitter, resentful, bullying git. Snape, even though he's close to Dumbledore, still hates, resents, antagonizes, and is antagonized by many, many people who are high up on the good side (the Potters, Sirius, Remus, etc.). Snape, even though he must have shown bravery in leaving Voldemort, doesn't not always do the right/difficult thing.


Dumbledore's big mistake, IMO, is not in believing that Snape is on his side, but in believing that being on the right side is enough. He should never have trusted Snape with teaching Harry Occlumency -- not because there was any question about Snape softening Harry up for Voldie's thoughts or anything, but simply because Dumbledore should have realized that Snape's animus toward Harry could not be overcome, and would only make the lessons incredibly difficult. Since so much of Dumbledore's plans in OotP hinged on Harry blocking Voldie's thoughts, he was careless to entrust the lessons to someone who had to overcome a great deal of personal, long-standing issues with Harry, someone who had shown absolutely ZERO inclination to do such a thing in the 4 years prior to OotP. Even before the pensieve incident, the lessons were not going well at all, and after the pensieve, Snape ends the lessons, without so much as a word of notice or warning to anyone else in the Order. That Dumbledore couldn't forsee problems arising from Snape's personal issues -- and the specific issues between him and Harry -- was very surprising to me.


Snape can cause a great deal of trouble and danger for Harry and the Order based solely on his personality and past problems (it could be argued that he already has), even if he's fully committed to the right side. That's what Dumbledore needs to realize, that's where his trust seems to be misplaced. Hopefully, Dumbledore will make adjustments in the way he has Snape serve the Order in the next book.

[SaveeSurpens]

Well played. I'm proud of your responses. Now...

From NeuroComp:

"I do not think it both legimens and occlumens matters but rather one or the toher. You have to separate the two. One is the ability to read minds the other is the ability to close ones mind to readers. Being better in one does not necessarily mean your better in the other as your post seems to indicate."

They are seperate, yes, but very related. I did throw them around and interchange them a bit in my long post, and I apologize. Occlumency is a defensive strategy designed to counter the attacking force of Legilimency. I meant that Snape could have established great Occlumency powers, enough to defend against the Dark Lord, while his Legilimency powers are, from what we can see, at least enough to get past Harry's relative Occlumency skill, which is completely undeveloped at that point. It is possible that Snape cannot perform Legilimens on the Dark Lord, yet can guard himself against the Dark Lord's.

NeuroComp says here:

"...if snape is the best occlumist but dumbledore is the best legimenist perhaps dumbledore is still able to read his mind."

Yes...and no. If Snape is the best Occlumist, but Dumbledore, the best Legilimenist, can still break into Snape's mind, then Dumbledore is still more powerful, in a more general sense. This is the fine distinction I have failed to make before. So these powers are separate, but depend on each other very much. It's quite murky, because separate powers are being compared to one another. So, as NeuroComp kind of said, in order for Dumbledore to have to read Snape's mind, Dumbledore must have attacking power (L) better than Snape's defending power (O). In order for Snape to be a spy, the Dark Lord's attacking power must be less than Snape's defense, although Snape's defense could not be enough to keep Dumbledore out.

As for NeuroComp's numbered points:
1) No. Dumbledore would never do such a thing. This is because of his reactions to Dementors, and Barty Crouch's confession. He is too collected and dislikes such barbarity to stoop to a Death Eater's level and use the Imperious curse.
2) Possible because it is so wide open. Not probable because it just sounds absurd to my arrogant ears.
3) This one doesn't really make sense. Dumbledore is never impolite to anyone.

Dumbledore has taken Snape under his wing for either strategic purposes, as Rosiepots has told us, or out of the goodness of his heart, which fits his character more than anything else.

Muggical Me, I can find nothing concrete to completely disprove what you have said. In fact I think you may be right. Why indeed would Snape look so pale in the hospital had he already experienced the Dark Lord's reprimand?...Truth at last.

Arrogance? You're talking to someone who identifies with Snape. Of course I'm arrogant. But I want th truth, even if I have to beat it out of people. Savvy?

[Muggical Me]

Fair enough SaveeSurpens, nothing wrong with a little arrogance I suppose...

Further to what I mentioned earlier though. I just noticed when I was "restarting the loop" of HP. In book one, when Harry realizes what he's going to do (go after "Snape" and the SS/PS) JKR describes Harry in this way; "He was pale and his eyes were glittering.". It more speculation than I'd like to use but this is almost the exact same description as that of Snape before he goes to do what Dumbledore asks in the end of GoF. If we use how we know Harry was feeling in that instance in book one and relate those feelings and the causes of those feelings to Snape at the end of GoF it would strengthen my position that Snape has yet to have met with Voldemort. Like I said.. that's a lot of speculation, but I find it interesting (and maybe even probable) all the same.

[Nys]

I'm not sure whether Snape is good or bad. I agree that mostly he is out for himself. Even though he apparently is good at DADA his main strength seems to be potion making. I think that it is for this skill that Voldie enlisted his support. Maybe even for his ability in Legilimany and Occulamancy. I just get the feeling that he wouldn't be as barbaric as to kill people. Even though he seems evil there still is a feeling of class about him that seems that he wouldn't stoop to these sorts of tactics. I think that eventually he was asked to kill as a DE and he backed out. It was at this point that he changed sides. Though I think that in changing sides he told Voldie that he was going in undercover.
Thus the DE's would think that he was actually on their side thereby explaining why he isn't dead and why Lucius Malfoy and him are still friends.
In changing sides he probably provided information to Dumbledore something about Voldie going after the Potter's. Although there must have been some information that would pass back to Voldie for this cover to exist.
Ultimately I think that he is trustworthy in the cause of ridding the magical world of the Dark Lord. I don't think however he is trustworthy will Harry. I don't think that he hates Harry as much as he hates his father and I don't except this as the reason for a mature adult to treat Harry with such contempt. I do however think that in doing this he is actually pushing Harry to excel. Most people have the experience of a teacher being horrible to you so that you rebel against them and prove them wrong and ultimately work harder. If he bowed down to the greatness of Harry Potter like so many others he would be in essence be undoing the good that Dumbledore did by sending Harry out of the Magical world.

[NeuroComp]

savee
yeah i just tossed those numbers in as options...i truly believe that AD saved/spared his life,possibly from near death.
3) isn't too farfetched though, since even though dumbledore's mannerism is polite it doesn't mean his words don't hurt, look how he talks to umbridge and rita skeeter.\

and smart people no that if you really want someone dead you get other's to do it for you...so snapes coulda been the leader at killing but never actually did it himself...or he coulda been a weapons maker since he is a well established potions master.

[SaveeSurpens]

I have noticed that Professor Snape's eyes glitter a lot, although under what general circumstances is it hard to say. It seems significant (but of course everything he does is significant to me) in a general sense. If we could figure out why and when their eyes do this, it could help a lot.
That is a pretty specific theory Nys. I beleive you contradict yourself as well. If Snape is completely self interested he must be willing to sacrifice and/or kill to survive. Your theory doesn't work because the very reason Death Eaters are there is to serve the Dark Lord. I assure you if Snape does not kill when the Dark Lord orders him to he would be dead already. It is most likely that Snape's reformation was an event which could be proven with hard evidence, and is not detrimental to any valuable Death Eater or the Dark Lord himself. You must remember that even though Karkaroff tells the Ministry that the identities of Death Eaters are protected (GoF, Chapter: The Pensieve), we are shown that that notion is rubbish, as the Dark Lord addresses several of them by name (GoF, Ch; The Death Eaters). So now we know that pretty much all the Death Eaters know one another, some, like Lucius Malfoy and Macnair, work inside the ministry. So yes Nys, Snape must have entered Dumbledore's service in a way that would appear he was spying for Death Eaters.
We need a list of conditions for Snape's reformation. A kind of What it is And What it Ain't thingy.
The theory about Snape trying to strengthen Harry by being mean to him cannot be true. Professor McGonagal seems to like Harry but she's not soft on him by any means. She would be the one who is trying to toughen him up. Snape is probably doing this too, but not intentionally. Not because he likes him but because he genuinely hates Harry. I understand where Snape is coming from; he is not as mature as we think he is. His inability to move on from his painful past and the grudges he built leave little room for the emotional growth most healthy adults undergo. I am not surprised he lets these things get to him and reacts immaturely, such as canceling the Occlumency lessons.
It's true-Snape is valuable to either side. He is in both places, he has social conections, he has knowlegde. It is for this that the notion of Snape as a double agent shouldn't be too far off the mark.
Savvy?

[Nys]

That is a pretty specific theory Nys. I beleive you contradict yourself as well. If Snape is completely self interested he must be willing to sacrifice and/or kill to survive. Your theory doesn't work because the very reason Death Eaters are there is to serve the Dark Lord. I assure you if Snape does not kill when the Dark Lord orders him to he would be dead already. It is most likely that Snape's reformation was an event which could be proven with hard evidence, and is not detrimental to any valuable Death Eater or the Dark Lord himself. You must remember that even though Karkaroff tells the Ministry that the identities of Death Eaters are protected (GoF, Chapter: The Pensieve), we are shown that that notion is rubbish, as the Dark Lord addresses several of them by name (GoF, Ch; The Death Eaters). So now we know that pretty much all the Death Eaters know one another, some, like Lucius Malfoy and Macnair, work inside the ministry. So yes Nys, Snape must have entered Dumbledore's service in a way that would appear he was spying for Death Eaters.

Maybe the Dark Lord didn't have Snape there specifically to kill people. As I stated he has skills in Potion brewing (even Lupin says this). Maybe he was there so as to aid the Dark Lord to gain immortality. My theory is that he was asked to kill Regulas Black, but found himself unable for some reason, but instead told Voldie that someone helped Regulas escape. He would have been punished for this we know but with Snape's skills in lieing to Voldie which he himself told Harry that he could do he could have gotten away with it.


We need a list of conditions for Snape's reformation. A kind of What it is And What it Ain't thingy.
The theory about Snape trying to strengthen Harry by being mean to him cannot be true. Professor McGonagal seems to like Harry but she's not soft on him by any means. She would be the one who is trying to toughen him up. Snape is probably doing this too, but not intentionally. Not because he likes him but because he genuinely hates Harry. I understand where Snape is coming from; he is not as mature as we think he is. His inability to move on from his painful past and the grudges he built leave little room for the emotional growth most healthy adults undergo. I am not surprised he lets these things get to him and reacts immaturely, such as canceling the Occlumency lessons.

Yes cancelling the Occulmency leasons was an extremely immature response by Snape. But; Harry had just hit upon an extremely touchy subject with Snape i.e the way Harry's father and friend had tormented him. I would have to say that Snape taking thoughts out of his mind just before the lessons would say that these were thoughts Snape didn't want anyone to see, ESPECIALLY Harry. He seemed to think that Harry would thrive knowing what his father had done, he does seem to like being told he's like his father up until this point. But as we know this isn't the way that Harry reacted thus Snape cancelling these lessons was incredibly stupid and useless to Snape. But why would he try to take out these thoughts?! It must be incredibly hard to get into someone's mind and why would Snape think that Harry would be able to? Unless Snape realises that Harry is actually quite skillful at magic! But this is getting away from my point. Some teachers help their students in different ways. Yes McGonnagal is nice to Harry, strict too, but Snape seems to like getting Harry angry trying to get him to prove him wrong!

It's true-Snape is valuable to either side. He is in both places, he has social conections, he has knowlegde. It is for this that the notion of Snape as a double agent shouldn't be too far off the mark.
Savvy?
Finally something that we agree on. But I still think that Snape is ultimately out for himself. And having Voldermort around isn't going to help him much and he realises this, I can't imagine what it would be like to constantly have to lie to people and do what Snape has to do whenever talking to Voldie.

[Lupin_Lady]

In GOF Voldemort says that there is one Death Eater that can never return to him... Did any one else think Snape??
I know that this mysterious Death Eater isn't dead as Voldie said that he would have to be killed, along with the one that abandoned him, Karkaroff...

So if this Death Eater is Snape, then i got to thinking that perhaps Dumbledore put a spell on him, where Snape can only be loyal to Dumbledore.
Never is forever don't forget.

Also Dumbledore has never trusted anyone that has been evil, or even a little off. He nver trusted Umbridge. He wasn't a great fan of Karkaroff, but he was hospitible, as though he knew that Karkaroff was going to do a runner.

So, Dumbledore trusts Snape, because he knows Snape can never return to Voldemort>

[SaveeSurpens]

In response to Nys:
Snape doesn't, nor will he ever, nor will anyone, have a "desk job" as a Death Eater. Being such, all Death Eaters are expected to dirty their hands sooner or later. I disagree that Snape was only hired to engineer potions for the Dark Lord. The functon of a Death Eater is to kill and torture muggles, and to carry out the Dark Lord's orders. Even though it is still fuzzy as to Snape's days as a Death Eater, which is why this question goes unanswered, it is clear that we can draw my conclusion partially by what has just been said, and from Snape's limited social background; That he would cling to what friends he has at all costs. His friends became Death Eaters, therefore he voluntarily followed suit. Death Eaters are then accepted on the basis of their destructive abilities, brute strength, and purity of blood-not necessarily for specialized talents or intelligence, as demonstrated by the prescence of the seniors Crabbe and Goyle, and maybe for their position to spy on the Order or the Ministry, best demonstrated by the prescence of Peter Pettigrew. Now this partiicular argument culd be switched against me. One might say that Snape was too in a prime spying position at Hogwarts. No, no, no... That is utterly wrong. At the time, Snape was not teaching at Hogwarts yet, which probably only happens after he reforms, years after becoming a Death Eater. Therefore, the only reason to hire Snape was because he is a pure-blood, he hates (or hated) muggles and muggle-borns, he had some amount of strength or useful agility in his youth, and he was eager to prove himself in front of his friends and the Dark Lord. Of course this could be debated endlessley since so little has been revealed about this period of his life...We'll find out though. I'm sure of it.
Again, you contradict yourself. If Snape had a "desk job," why would he be ordered to kill Regalus Black? The chronology does match up - both Snape's reformation and the death of Regalus Black happen around the time of Harry's birth - but again, it is another thing that is inconclusive because there is not enough evidence to support a connection between the two events.
Plus, Snape could not possibly have had enough Occlumency skill to lie to the Dark Lord at that time. The former Tom Riddle was a few decades his senior, and much more advanced in Legilimency at the time. Snape needed the gap of fourteen or so years to gain enough Occlumency skill in order to lie to the Dark Lord. He could do this without worrying about how the Dark Lord's powers were developing because he was completely incapacitated. After the Dark Lord was vanquished, he was only willing himself to exist. He was probably not specifically developing his Legilimency skills. In fact, he neglected them so long, they may have even atrophied. Ergo Snape could not lie to the Dark Lord in person before his fall, nor before a certain point when he surpassed the Dark Lord sometime in that fifteen year period of Occlumency development.
Obviously I didn't explain my point well enough on the Protecting Harry matter. SNAPE HATES HARRY. Truly, deeply, irrationally maybe, permanently, and most important of all, GENUINELY. He is NOT protecting Harry. He does not act like he hates him only for this purpose. Is Snape trying to strenghten the entire house of Gryffindor by being nasty to everyone? No, obviously, he hates them all - it is his character to be nasty and grudging and hateful. He just has a deeper hatred for Harry because of his history with his father, so of course he baits him to provoke a reaction, and this is probably overemphasized simply because the story is told from Harry's point of view. Another example is James. Snape hates him because he tormented Snape, not because he is tryng to strengthen James, In fact, Snape sees James manifesting himself in Harry. This is why he especially hates Harry. Is the following made-up scenario from book seven plausible at all?:
"Harry emerged from Dumbledore's office after telling him the entire story of how he vanquished Voldemort at last. As the staircase came down, Harry could hear the voices of the whole school in the hall waiting for him. He reached the bottom and a rush of people surrounded him, first of all Snape. Harry thought he was going to be murdered and struggled against Snape as he rushed forward and grasped him, pulling him close to his body, but suddenly realized that his Potions master was hugging him. Too surprised to react, Harry froze and let Snape break the hug. 'You did it! You did it!' Snape whooped exultantly, shaking Harry's hand profusely, tears running down his cheeks, a massive smile spread over his face, as he jumped up and down in pure joy, 'I always knew everything would pay off! I'm sorry I tortured you! I had to-I was trying to strengthen you! And you did it!' Professor McGonagal then broke in and proclaimed 'Group Hug!!!'"
If this happened, people would be driven to murder.
Snape is not for himself. Dumbledore, because of his age, is a superior legilimenist. He could easily break into Snape's mind and see whether or not he is loyal. Snape is not an idiot - he knows this too. They would not have the relationship they have if Snape was for himself, because Dumbledore would know of his disloyalty, Snape would know of Dumbledore's discovery, and get away as quickly as possible. Since none of this has occured, Snape, up until this point, is loyal to Dumbledore. If this logical argument doesn't persuade you then stop mentioning how you have a hunch that he is evil or for himself because you are beyond reason.

In response to LupinLady:
You completely misquoted and misinterpreted the passage. I suggest you read it again. It does not mention "never".

Also, ANYONE THAT IS NEW TO THIS THREAD: READ PAST POSTS CAREFULLY BEFORE RESPONDING. Otherwise everyone becomes irritated by having to respond to the same faulty assertions we have already addressed. Look at the things we have already established and for my sanity's sake, get your facts straight.
Otherwise, I like discussing my favorite character. I don't want to have to insult people but some people make me feel like they deserve it. Just be smart. Savvy?

[Barbara Kennedy]

In response to Nys:
Snape doesn't, nor will he ever, nor will anyone, have a "desk job" as a Death Eater.
Give me textual proof of this statement.
As I see it, there have been many 'desk job' Death Eaters. Rookwood comes to mind.

Being such, all Death Eaters are expected to dirty their hands sooner or later.
That would depend on Voldemort's orders. If one of his followers was ordered to spy within the MoM undercover for years and report all their findings back to Voldemort but otherwise keep themselves free of all suspicion, I think they would be required to avoid 'dirtying their hands' on orders.

I disagree that Snape was only hired to engineer potions for the Dark Lord. The functon of a Death Eater is to kill and torture muggles, and to carry out the Dark Lord's orders. Even though it is still fuzzy as to Snape's days as a Death Eater, which is why this question goes unanswered, it is clear that we can draw my conclusion partially by what has just been said, and from Snape's limited social background;

Why are we required to draw your conclusion. Have we no will and mind of our own to draw our own conclusions, even should they differ from yours given the same evidence?

That he would cling to what friends he has at all costs. His friends became Death Eaters, therefore he voluntarily followed suit. Death Eaters are then accepted on the basis of their destructive abilities, brute strength, and purity of blood-not necessarily for specialized talents or intelligence,

Give textual evidence of this, please?
I was under the distinct impression that Voldemort had some intelligence and would know that it is brains that win a battle, not just brute force and mindless violence.

as demonstrated by the prescence of the seniors Crabbe and Goyle,

The last time I looked, Voldemort's followers were not exclusively Crabbe and Goyle clones.

and maybe for their position to spy on the Order or the Ministry, best demonstrated by the prescence of Peter Pettigrew.

What is your evidence that he chose Pettigrew? Let alone that he knew Pettigrew was a member of the Order before he was recruited to Voldemort's ranks?

Now this partiicular argument culd be switched against me. One might say that Snape was too in a prime spying position at Hogwarts. No, no, no... That is utterly wrong. At the time, Snape was not teaching at Hogwarts yet, which probably only happens after he reforms, years after becoming a Death Eater.

Of course it was only after he left Voldemort. He had left the school after his seventh year and possibly sometime after that joined the Death Eaters. James and Lily (in his same year) married right out of Hogwarts and soon had a child, Harry.
Since we know that Snape had defected back to the good side several months before the death of James and Lily, He has been teaching at Hogwarts and spying for Dumbledore since a few months after Harry was born.

You need to check out the timeline before making too many assumptions about how long he was a Death Eater before he went to Dumbledore and wanted out of the Death Eaters. Dumbledore shows his trust of Snape by then giving him a teaching position at Hogwarts.

Therefore, the only reason to hire Snape was because he is a pure-blood, he hates (or hated) muggles and muggle-borns, he had some amount of strength or useful agility in his youth, and he was eager to prove himself in front of his friends and the Dark Lord.

Please show your supporting evidence.
We have no proof so far that Snape is a pure-blood or that he has any prejudice against muggles or muggle-borns. The single use of the word 'mudblood' is not definitive proof either. He could have been in the habit of using the word like anyone uses any other insult when they are mad.

I have not seen much evidence in the book for his 'strength or useful agility in his youth' either.

Just for the record, Voldemort doesn't 'hire,' he recruits and expects his recruits to follow him without pay or any other recompense. He promises power, but enslaves his followers to his bidding and whim. That is what the Dark Mark is all about.

Of course this could be debated endlessley since so little has been revealed about this period of his life...We'll find out though. I'm sure of it.
Perhaps we will, I hope so, but that is ultimately up to JKR.

Again, you contradict yourself. If Snape had a "desk job," why would he be ordered to kill Regalus Black?

Was he? When did this happen?

The chronology does match up - both Snape's reformation and the death of Regalus Black happen around the time of Harry's birth - but again, it is another thing that is inconclusive because there is not enough evidence to support a connection between the two events.

Who is contradicting themself here?
Why did you bring it up as proof then if it is inconclusive?

Plus, Snape could not possibly have had enough Occlumency skill to lie to the Dark Lord at that time. The former Tom Riddle was a few decades his senior, and much more advanced in Legilimency at the time. Snape needed the gap of fourteen or so years to gain enough Occlumency skill in order to lie to the Dark Lord.

Where is your textual proof?

How long does it take to learn Occlumency? Is it possible to have some natural talent at it that just needs honed and fine-tuned for it to be effective enough? Since Dumbledore was the one to send Snape back to spy on Voldemort, isn't there at least some possibilty that he would also arm Snape with the means to protect his mind from Voldemort's Legilimency by teaching him Occlumency?
Dumbledore seemed to think Harry could learn enough Occlumency in a short time to prevent Voldemort from accessing his mind.


He could do this without worrying about how the Dark Lord's powers were developing because he was completely incapacitated. After the Dark Lord was vanquished, he was only willing himself to exist. He was probably not specifically developing his Legilimency skills. In fact, he neglected them so long, they may have even atrophied. Ergo Snape could not lie to the Dark Lord in person before his fall, nor before a certain point when he surpassed the Dark Lord sometime in that fifteen year period of Occlumency development.

Again, where is your textual support for this statement?
You make a lot of brash and overbearing statements without textual proof and expect us to accept them as the only way it could possibly happen.

Obviously I didn't explain my point well enough on the Protecting Harry matter.
Perhaps if you bring in actual book quotes and examples, it would help.

SNAPE HATES HARRY. Truly, deeply, irrationally maybe, permanently, and most important of all, GENUINELY. He is NOT protecting Harry.

Then explain to me why he has saved Harry's life when it would have been very easy to simply let him fall from the broom and pretend he didn't see it happening.


He does not act like he hates him only for this purpose.

Excuse me, what purpose?

Is Snape trying to strenghten the entire house of Gryffindor by being nasty to everyone? No, obviously, he hates them all - it is his character to be nasty and grudging and hateful. He just has a deeper hatred for Harry because of his history with his father, so of course he baits him to provoke a reaction, and this is probably overemphasized simply because the story is told from Harry's point of view. Another example is James. Snape hates him because he tormented Snape, not because he is tryng to strengthen James, In fact, Snape sees James manifesting himself in Harry. This is why he especially hates Harry. Is the following made-up scenario from book seven plausible at all?:

Does it matter? What does your 'made-up scenario' prove, other than you have a good imagination? We want you to provide scenes from the book to prove your point, please.

"Harry emerged from Dumbledore's office after telling him the entire story of how he vanquished Voldemort at last. As the staircase came down, Harry could hear the voices of the whole school in the hall waiting for him. He reached the bottom and a rush of people surrounded him, first of all Snape. Harry thought he was going to be murdered and struggled against Snape as he rushed forward and grasped him, pulling him close to his body, but suddenly realized that his Potions master was hugging him. Too surprised to react, Harry froze and let Snape break the hug. 'You did it! You did it!' Snape whooped exultantly, shaking Harry's hand profusely, tears running down his cheeks, a massive smile spread over his face, as he jumped up and down in pure joy, 'I always knew everything would pay off! I'm sorry I tortured you! I had to-I was trying to strengthen you! And you did it!' Professor McGonagal then broke in and proclaimed 'Group Hug!!!'"
If this happened, people would be driven to murder.

Yes, especially since your Snape was written totally out of character on purpose.

Snape is not for himself. Dumbledore, because of his age, is a superior legilimenist. He could easily break into Snape's mind and see whether or not he is loyal. Snape is not an idiot - he knows this too. They would not have the relationship they have if Snape was for himself, because Dumbledore would know of his disloyalty, Snape would know of Dumbledore's discovery, and get away as quickly as possible. Since none of this has occured, Snape, up until this point, is loyal to Dumbledore.

Of course Dumbledore is a better legilimens (proper term). That is why I believe he was the one to teach Snape the Legilimency and Occlumency skills for his advantage as a spy in Voldemort's Inner Circle.

If this logical argument doesn't persuade you then stop mentioning how you have a hunch that he is evil or for himself because you are beyond reason.

As to this statement, I believe you had better read the rules regarding conduct toward other members of the forums. They have a right to their opinions too, whether you agree with them or not.

In response to LupinLady:
You completely misquoted and misinterpreted the passage. I suggest you read it again. It does not mention "never".

Also, ANYONE THAT IS NEW TO THIS THREAD: READ PAST POSTS CAREFULLY BEFORE RESPONDING. Otherwise everyone becomes irritated by having to respond to the same faulty assertions we have already addressed. Look at the things we have already established and for my sanity's sake, get your facts straight.
Otherwise, I like discussing my favorite character. I don't want to have to insult people but some people make me feel like they deserve it. Just be smart. Savvy?

Rudeness is a quick way to get yourself banned, be warned. This is supposed to be a family-friendly forum, emphasis on the 'friendly.' See my earlier response about reading the rules. Anyone can post in here whether they have read the entire thread or not and you have no right to try to dictate whether they can or not.

By the way Snape is my favorite character too, but most people here know that already.

[Discordia]

SaveeSurpens, I agree with you entirely. It's Snape's nature to be rotten and he has not even a modicum of liking for Harry. THe only reason that Snape hasn't tried to murder Harry yet is because Dumbledore is standing in his way. He's not just going to let the boy die but he's not going to go out of his way to ensure that he's comfortable. I think that Snape for all his issues is loyal to Dumbledore. Everyone always thinks that Snape is evil but I think that the problem is that he just hates the whole of Gryffindoor house in general and every other house except Slytherin bc they're reminders of the hell he went through at the hands of the Marauders.

The problem is that there isn't enough evidence to really prove anything. There are still really huge gaping holes that could point to several people. So the following we don't know:
1)Is Regulus is really dead or not and if he is dead than who killed him
2)Who was the spy that told Voldemort part of the prophecy
3)Who tipped off Dumbledore that Voldemort was going after the Potters
4)Does Voldemort know for sure about Snape?
5)Why did Snape switch sides
All of those we're not really sure about and they may or may not explain alot about Snape.

I don't think that Snape's out for himself. I think that Lucius falls under that category bc he'll follow Voldemort if it ensures him power. Lucius wants to be on the side that wins and he'll switch sides for the one that will better suit him. Snape chose the good side even with the risk that he might get himself killed during the height of Voldemort's power which goes against his principles of looking after your own neck first. I think that he's just trying to survive and make it out with his head still screwed on. You can't be a DE and than turn spy for the good side if you don't have any brains and Snape is no fool.


So, Dumbledore trusts Snape, because he knows Snape can never return to Voldemort>
I think that the reason is because Snape switched sides putting his life on the line in the process and Voldemort must have obviously known about it but it meant that Snape wasn't about to betray him. Snape's still alive because Dumbledore's around and Voldemort has to know about Snape. THe only reason that he hasn't skewered him like a shish kabob yet is because Hogwarts gives Snape sanctuary and he can't just break in and kill him. He's going to wait until the right time to get rid of Snape or he'd have done it already which makes me think that Voldemort is either using Snape against himself or that he has no clue. Voldemort isn't an idiot and he always knows who betrays him so I doubt that he wouldn't know. He has to know by now.

Snape and Harry aren't exaclty closest people in the world. I seriously doubt that we'll see them picking wild flowers and acting all hunkey dorey. They despise eachother and there's a better chance of them attempting to do eachother in once and for all than having some big family reunion. I think that eventually they may come to have some respect for eachother and atleast be civil to eachother but I wouldn't say that they'll ever be friends. I think there may always be some hate for eachother but they will have to get over that eventually and Snape needs to understand that Harry isn't James.


That is why I believe he was the one to teach Snape the Legilimency and Occlumency skills for his advantage as a spy in Voldemort's Inner Circle.Actually I think that Snape may have taught himself. Not to help him against Voldemort but to block out all the bad memories that the Marauders gave him. Snape buries his anger until it explodes, Voldemort takes it out by using revenge, Harry always lets his emotions go and sometimes they get the better of him.

[GryffindorGr]

SaveeSurpens, I agree with you entirely. It's Snape's nature to be rotten and he has not even a modicum of liking for Harry. THe only reason that Snape hasn't tried to murder Harry yet is because Dumbledore is standing in his way.


Do we really know? Yes, we see a lot of Snape's attitude towards the trio quite severe but he's usually "fair"--in the harshest way he could be, I suppose. He doesnt seem to me to sabotage anything against DD's wishes. Murder Harry? Do you really believe that if DD wasnt in the picture, he'd try to kill Harry? All we've seen so far is Snape "saving" Harry.

by Rotsiepots
I think on some level Dumbledore understands this and that's why he invests his trust in Snape.


This is what I’ve always invested some of my trust in Snape, because not only DD trusts him to a degree but Hermione too when she defends Snape in OotP, by saying if we can’t trust DD then who can we trust?

And too that DD said in OotP, p.735/735 British Edition:
I trust Severus Snape,’ said Dumbledore simply. “But I forgot—another old man’s mistake—that some wounds run too deep for the healing. I thought Professor Snape could overcome his feelings about your father—I was wrong.”

These are emotions and emotions are uncontrollable, sometimes even rationale cannot stop it. We even see it in Sirius Black’s attitude with Snape.


1)Is Regulus is really dead or not and if he is dead than who killed him

Which is discussed in detail here :)
http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=11319
(return of Regulus Black)

by Discordia
Everyone always thinks that Snape is evil but I think that the problem is that he just hates the whole of Gryffindoor house in general and every other house except Slytherin bc they're reminders of the hell he went through at the hands of the Marauders

I dont know about that. hate the whole house and other house? I think it's just specifically James and Sirius. I dont know how he feels about Lupin and Pettigrew. Perhaps Lupin's alignment with the marauders give Snape a feeling of, well, you're on their side so you can't really understand. Though Lupin does understand, that's why he's tried in his own way to defend Snape. Lupin's just a softie.

[SaveeSurpens]

About the "desk job" thingy - I am trying to say that Snape was not solely a potions engineer. When you become a Death Eater, unless you're the first, you have already seen what other Death Eaters do. You know that murder, torture, or at least espionage is expected of you. It is like Al Capone hiring a scientist to make him a better gun, when he already does adequate damage with his cronies, his power is rising just fine, and he can plan his own strategies. The Dark Lord was an extremely skilled wizard. As can be seen from his rebirth in GoF, he has the power to make his own potions and has extensive knowledge of Dark magic. It doesn't sound plausible that the Dark Lord ever needed Snape's help in this way. Speculation of course, we'll find out later.

Rookwood was a spy. Engaging in espionage seems pretty dangerous, even if you're not killing people every day. Karkaroff denounced him to ministry members. Even being a spy has its risks - being put in Azkaban by your fellows, for example. "Desk job" was in quotes for a reason. It wasn't meant to be taken literally. I think Snape was capable of murder at one point in his life. He had just found acceptance with his fellow Death Eaters, some of which he went to Hogwarts with, and would probably do anything to keep it. This is taken from what Sirius says in the chapter "Padfoot Returns," in GoF, about Snape and his Slythering friends almost all turning out to be Death Eaters. Speculation of course, we'll find out later.

Another reason I think all DE's have to kill is the Dark Mark. It unites them under the Dark Lord and was usually procured to signify a kill. Why would they all have the same insignia burned into their arm if they weren't expected to kill? Speculation of course, we'll find out later.

As I read the series, the dominant impression of the dynamics of the Dark Lord and the DE's as a group was mainly that the Dark Lord took care of all the planning and strategy, and he would delegate tasks to the Death Eaters using the information they provided. Of course they need a certain amount of skill in order to carry out their tasks, but the main requirements were unwavering loyalty, pure blood, and a penchant for muggles. The Death Eaters kept by the Dark Lord must be looked at as a whole to determine the requirements, those were the immediate ones that came to mind.

Did you know you said this:
"What is your evidence that he chose Pettigrew? Let alone that he knew Pettigrew was a member of the Order before he was recruited to Voldemort's ranks?"
And then you say this:
"Just for the record, Voldemort doesn't 'hire,' he recruits and expects his recruits to follow him without pay or any other recompense."
Does he recruit or accept volunteers? If I am wrong in assuming he chooses Pettigrew, then why would Pettigrew, according to your later statement, be recruited like all other Death Eaters? If he does recruit, then the Dark Lord would have to know Peter was in the Order so that he would have use for him.

It makes sense that the Dark Lord would only make pure-bloods into Death Eaters. Take the following quote, in GoF, from the chapter "The Dark Mark," when Ron, Hermione and Harry are running from the Death Eaters into the woods and they run into Draco Malfoy, who tells Hermione they're after muggles, and when Harry says she's a witch, Draco says, "If you think they can't spot a Mudblood, stay where you are." This can be taken to mean that he's told his father Hermione is muggle-born, or that they have some way of knowing who is who. But wouldn't they then know that the Dark Lord is a half-blood? Or did they just not have reason to doubt his blood-purity until the end of the fifth book? Yet, you can imagine the Dark Lord's response to a Death Eater just attempting to ask such a question. Completely unfounded though; we can't really know what Draco means.
So I'm afraid it is difficult to say why a Death Eater is chosen or thinks they can volunteer.

I was not aware Lily and James married right out of Hogwarts. Could you please tell me when this is mentioned?

As to Regalus Black, I was responding to a rather specific theory belonging to Nys a few posts ago. It's a possible theory, but cannot be proven right or wrong yet.

I am also afraid that my theory that Snape could not lie face to face to the Dark Lord before his fall is shaky as well, as what we know so far about Occlumency and Legilimency is not as extensive as we'd like it to be. But if it was that easy to fool the Dark Lord, and just fine tune their powers, then there must be several spies working as Death Eaters for Dumbledore, hasn't there?

Perhaps my choice of words hurts your interpretation of what I am saying. I misused the word "Protect." Again, I was responding to another theory that Snape only acts like he hates Harry to make him stronger. I did not mean Snape wants to murder Harry. I meant that he has deep dislike for Harry, and the sole purpose for his hate is Harry's "resemblance" to James. Assuming faultily that he did want Harry to die, it would definitely hurt his relationship with Dumbledore to just let him fall. So obviously he dislikes Harry, for reasons other than to strengthen him, but doesn't want him to die.
I wrote the made up scenario to show how unlikely the theory that Snape is only mean to Harry to make him stronger. Plus, it's just funny.

Anyway, I doubt if this thread is going anywhere worthwhile, so I'll just quit while I'm ahead.
PS - (The funny thing about forums is that people forget they can just turn off their computer. You can't be harassed online. Nobody is being forced to see or accept the opinions I present. Even if I say "You should think this," I can't make you. It's still your decision. I don't see why people allow themselves to feel violated by words on a screen. It's absurd. I'm less of a threat online than I would be if what I was saying was printed in a book. Just because there's a person behind the screen doesn't mean you can't ignore me the way you can simply put down the book.)

[padfoot1008]

Im not sure that dumbl. should trust snape, but on the other hand, snape is kinda pathetic. Hes still living in the past, and now that james is dead, hes torturing harry, thats a little sad. Anyways, doesnt dumbly. know that voldy knows snape is *no longer evil*?, or does he know, and is just trying to use snape.. is that dumbledore behavior.. but then again, what IS dumbledore's behavior, he often surprises us. This is a little off subject, but i think dumbl. is evil. (most of you are probably gasping, but think about it), at the end of book 4 on page 696 it says, "for a fleeting instant, Harry thought he saw a gleam of something like triumph in dumbledore's eyes... :huh: ", i know JKR wouldnt have put that in for no reason, and JKR always surprises us, and dumbledore being evil, would be the biggest surprise yet.

[Discordia]

Murder Harry? Do you really believe that if DD wasnt in the picture, he'd try to kill Harry? All we've seen so far is Snape "saving" Harry.

Lol. I think that if the occasion ever arose they might get into another fight and try to kill eachother but they wouldn't necessarily suceed. I think that Snape wouldn't mind if Harry died but I don't think that he'd let that happen. They may try to torture eachother now and than but I don't think they'd actually murder eachother. I think that the fact that Dumbledore's there is the reason that Snape hasn't tries to truly make Harry's life a living hell.

[GryffindorGr]

Im not sure that dumbl. should trust snape, but on the other hand, snape is kinda pathetic. Hes still living in the past, and now that james is dead, hes torturing harry, thats a little sad. Anyways, doesnt dumbly. know that voldy knows snape is *no longer evil*?, or does he know, and is just trying to use snape.. is that dumbledore behavior.. but then again, what IS dumbledore's behavior, he often surprises us. This is a little off subject, but i think dumbl. is evil. (most of you are probably gasping, but think about it), at the end of book 4 on page 696 it says, "for a fleeting instant, Harry thought he saw a gleam of something like triumph in dumbledore's eyes... :huh: ", i know JKR wouldnt have put that in for no reason, and JKR always surprises us, and dumbledore being evil, would be the biggest surprise yet.

But there's nothing more to support this--unless i'm mistaken. Is there other clues i'm missing--I'm sure i must have. Besides in JKR's interviews, she says DD is so wise and wishes she was as wise as him. I dont think she would not like him if he were doing something diabolical. It just throws the whole thing off you think?

By SaveeSurpens
I was not aware Lily and James married right out of Hogwarts. Could you please tell me when this is mentioned?

http://www.hp-lexicon.org/wizards/lily.html
here you go, they married in 1979, and had baby Potter in 1980. :)

[Barbara Kennedy]

Thanks for the dates, GryfindorGr, I just haven't had time to compile a response for SaveeSerpens yet.

[GryffindorGr]

Thanks for the dates, GryfindorGr, I just haven't had time to compile a response for SaveeSerpens yet.

No probs, Babs :) Looks like a long response for you.

[So Sirius]

FIRSTLY... As far as Draco being the defining point of Severus's and Lucius's friendship (God, hate those us-ending names) that is unnecessary... Umbridge says herself, (to Snape) "I am upset whatever, Lucius Malfoy always speaks very highly of you." That right there pinpoints amicable terms between Snape and Malfoy.... just to start off my argument, I would like to point out that that is just an example of how readers read too much into simple things... instead of the roundabout and unnecessarily complicated deduction about their friendship based on Draco, JKR points some things out to us if we only humble ourselves enough to see it...

Also... it doesn't say who Voldemort is talking about when he says that one Death Eater has to die... he says and I quote...

"And here we have six missing Death Eaters... three dead in my service. One, too cowardly to return... he will pay. One, who I beleve has left me forever... he will be killed, of course... and one, who remains my most faithful servant, and who as already reentered my service."

I was surprised that no one brought this up earlier, because although we assume we know who Voldemort is referring to, we don't really. The cowardly Death Eater would be Karkoroff, reentered servant to be Crouch, and the servant who is to be killed Snape... but just to throw it out there, we don't really know if that is accurate. (Also, who are the three dead DEs? Can't think right now)... so toy with names and think who Voldemort could have been referring to.

And as for Snape being DADA teacher, where does it ever say that snape is good at DEFENSE against Dark Arts? All that JKR says about what he knows about Dark Arts, she never mentions anything about him defending them.

Snape's past as a DE... didn't Sirius say that Regulus was killed because he panicked and tried to back out at what he was being asked to do... therefore I think it's safe to assume that Snape has killed or tortured someone at some point, otherwise he wouldn't have been a DE for very long... he would have been killed (or escaped, whatever glass half full empty) not long after he joined. I don't think there is any concrete evidence on this, but from what I've read I infer that Snape was a DE for quite some time, and since Barb over there is so hasty to point it out, from what timeline does it show how long Snape was a DE? And take into consideration that unless the timeline was created by JKR herself or some people in close ranks with JKR, this timeline could be completely useless guesswork anyway... anyhoo... all things considered i assume snape killed and tortured... let's not try that Snape is innocent and a good person at heart route.

Snape was chosen to teach Harry Occlumency because Dumbledore thought it would have been unwise for him to teach it to Harry himself. This, therefore, suggests the opposite of Snape being the world's greatest Occlumens/legimens.

Savvy, pretty obvious anagram. There's also Save Sure Pens. Anyway. I think you're going overboard on the Occu/legi theories... after all, they have no bias in fact at all. Who says Snape couldn't lie to Voldemort? JKR... and she hasn't said anything about that yet. For all we know, this whole occu/legi theory will never be brought up in the last two books... sometimes we readers get too overzealous. Unless you have some kind of inside connect with JKR that we don't know about please continue merrily on and spill more goods.. I am inclined to gently remind you that otherwise, don't get too rooted in unfounded theories.

As for Snape being afraid of Voldemort, unless I'm mistaken he doesn't wince or jump at the name, but he does react oddly to his Dark Mark... (rubbing it unconsciously)...

And speaking of the name situation... it has always bothered me, even before Harry pointed it out... I think it means a lot more than any of us has caught on to. I thought that during the Occulmency lessons JKR made it very pronounced and redundant so the readers would pick up on Snape calling Slitnose the Dark Lord (before Harry pointed it out I mean)... in the very first book, Professor Dumbledore reminds Harry to call Snape PROFESSOR Snape, and now that issue is being brought up often... there is a very important significance on the name usuage if only I could figure out what it was... The comment on Dumbledore being "Strong enough" to use Voldemort's name places a particularly powerful emphasis on it...

Edit: Inappropriate message


What was I saying...

Overall, I think that Snape's trust is limited and it has nothing to do with Dumbledore or maybe even the choices he has made in the past, but all to do with his character flaws, no matter how Snape fans go through lengths to defend him... he is tragically and irrepably(sp) flawed... The Snape/James/Harry grudge triangle is inexcusably PATHETIC on Snape's part... you have to ask yourself what kind of grown man would behave in that manner and allow a childhood grudge to affect him in the way that his hatred of James affects Snape. If Snape is so hateful to everyone but Slytherins (which would make sense as long as none of the Marauders were in Slytherin house right), why doesn't he get a job somewhere else, if Hogwarts constantly reminds him of the "hell he went through during his school years there"?

So. To answer the eternal question.. NO. Dumbledore should not trust Snape.


Edited:

[Nys]

I don't think that anyone has said that Snape didn't do any killing as a Death Eater. I did suggest that he was mainly there to aid in Voldie's quest to become immortal many of which he said himself was in the usage of powerful potions. It was from this that I came to the thought that this was most likely to have been Snape.

I know that its not in this thread but my theory is that Snape was the one that was sent to kill Regulas Black. BUT... up until this time the killings that he had done were against those who weren't pure of blood. Once asked to kill another pure-blood he could bring himself to do it, even if it was the brother of the person he hated most in the world.

On the subject of Occulmency and Legilmency Snape would have had to be extremely powerful at the time that he changed sides. It doesn't seem like something that can be learnt and mastered overnight! But the change of sides would have been. He would have had to able to fool Voldie straight away otherwise he would have been killed immediately.

I also agree that the 3 missing Death Eaters aren't those that we suspect but this is discussed in another thread. I would attach it but I don't know how to do that.

Also... wasn't the name mentioned in book 5 of who the person who told Voldie about the prophecy. I don't have the book on me but it was because Dumbledore said that the person was ejected from the premises before it ended.

My answer to the question. I think that Dumbledore wouldn't trust Snape unless he had a very good reason. I don't think that he's stupid enough to be fooled into thinking that he could unless it was true.

[koli]

i think if dumbledore trusts him, everyone else will. However I find it peculiar even though he has a grudge against harry's dad, he should continue it to his child. Harry's practically nothing like his father, also Harry is what is going to overcome voldemort, snape shoudln't hate him. But if the time comes, snape will protect harry, and i dont think will go to voldie's side... ::crosses fingers:: lol

[nightingale]

True, DD is a wise man, but Snape's no fool, either. If say, just hypothetically speaking, he was still on V's side, he could play DD very well off of DD's weakness: he has a heart, he gives people second chances, where others wouldn't. Like Moody/Crouch said in GoF. I think I might have already brought this up somewhere, but isn't it a tad strange that it's Crouch saying all this?

[AffectedMangoO]

I don't think Snape is hatefull to so many people. I think he has to pretend he is, imagine what would happen if Draco tells his father that snape is friends with hp and others. That would be a very big problem!!! Voldy wouldnt trust him at all. Especially now Voldy can see things in Harrys mind, what would happen if he sees Harry likes Snape?

So yes, I think DD can trust Snape, there is more to this than we know

[wavy]

In light of the recent JKR interview, thought I'd resurrect this. She says that Dumbledore trusts Snape because Snape gave him his story and D believes it.

So, basically, she helps us not at all. :p I guess the only thing to take from that is that Snape's story was so convincing D had to buy it. I personally think it would be ridiculous to assume Snape just said "this is it" without D reviewing that story in a pensieve or using legillimens to verify it, but we'll see.

At this point, as of the end of OOTP, I think D has every reason to trust Snape. He has done too many things for the benefit of the order AND Harry - telling the Order about Sirius, keeping Umbridge from using Veritaserum, even looking out for Neville in the veritaserum scene. He's a slytherin, he's not going to come out and stick up for someone, but in his own backhanded way, he's done everything right with the exception of holding questionable grudges against Harry and the Marauders.

Not to say that this may not change in Book 6, but I have other reasons I suspect it won't, and they only relate to narrative and themes. It's cheap to have a fake bad guy in book 1 end up being a good guy in that book and then have him turn out to be a real bad guy in book 7 - in other words, she would be playing the "I was only kidding" card twice. I can't see that happening. It will also be impossibly lame and a terrible statement if not a single Slytherin breaks the mold of being a bad guy, and JKR has pretty strongly suggested that the only other really notable Slytherin from the books - Draco - won't be that guy. The next best candidate to break the mold is Snape.

I have no doubt we will find out all kinds of new things about Snape, but I think it would be disappointing if "he's really evil" is one of them.

[SaveeSurpens]

I whole heartedly agree about the other reasons to trust Snape thingy. And Dumbledore's reason for trusting him must be something that can be proven, otherwise the jury wouldn't be conviced, referring to the pensieve scene in GoF where Dumbledore says he has presented evidence on why Snape can be trusted. He also says he turned spy...interesting.

[Weatherby]

Dumbledore has information we don't. I can't really say why he trusts Snape but I don't think he's made a mistake. He's not blinded to Snape's nature. You don't have to perfect and impartial to be trustworthy at some things. Perhaps Dumbledore needs Snape and has no choice to trust him.
I think Snape is deserving of a second chance. Perhaps not from Harry's point of view since he might be expelled and thus rendered helpless to Voldemort as soon as he is eighteen and can't call the Dursleys home but who knows what he's done in Dumbledore's service.

[MadMagic]

Like Weatherby said, I'm sure Dumbledore has valid reason's for trusting Snape.
However, I'm not totally convinced that he should. Just things that JK has said have made me doubt wether Snape will be good for the long run. Snape I think is one of the most complex characters with many secrets, hopefully as more of him comes out we can be more certain that he deserves the trust Dumbledore has lavished upon him.

[Weatherby]

That's true Mad Magic.
Voldemort might also have been told Snape's story and believes him.

[Barbara Kennedy]

It makes me believe that there is something crucial about Snape's story that might help defeat Voldemort, or that explains how Voldemort got to be so powerful the first time around. The information might be useful in defeating him this time too.
Just another of my wild theories.......

[padfootgrim]

dumbledore trusts him... and if we cant trust dumbledores judgement

well anyway we know DD is good at occulmency and legitemecy cause he could have taught potter... but since snape is good at it too could he be tricking DD... actually DD is much stronger than snape as a wizard so i think if DD trusts snape, snape was telling the truth...

i would trust snape cause i trust DD...

wow that is confusing... :) and plus i like snape...

[GryffindorGr]

Now that I've re-read parts of OotP, I think it's a good idea that Dumbledore trusts Snape. I wonder if Dumbledore has ever been wrong before. He did elect Percy to be prefect (was that even debatable as to how they get elected?) but people do make choices in their lives later. I think with Snape's life, it seems as if it's more of looking back at his life of what had happened. (so much mystery surrounding it) instead of looking forward. He might have learned too many things and achieved too many mistakes to want to repeat the life he had before.

[Quaffle]

I believe the answer to this is in PoA. While talking in the Three Broomsticks in Hogsmeade, Fudge says someone told the Potters Voldemort was after them. This person was a spy under Dumbledore working for the old Order. I believe this person is Snape!

[MnMbabe]

I believe the answer to this is in PoA. While talking in the Three Broomsticks in Hogsmeade, Fudge says someone told the Potters Voldemort was after them. This person was a spy under Dumbledore working for the old Order. I believe this person is Snape!
hmm...i never thought of that before! Good observation!

[wavy]

I believe the answer to this is in PoA. While talking in the Three Broomsticks in Hogsmeade, Fudge says someone told the Potters Voldemort was after them. This person was a spy under Dumbledore working for the old Order. I believe this person is Snape!

I definitely think this is the case. When Snape finds Harry with Sirius doesn't he explode and say something like "you're just like your father - I try to save you from Sirius and you should be thanking me but instead you're acting like a dunderhead and you're going to end up dead like your father?" Paraphrasing there as if you couldn't tell. :p

I suspect that Snape not only made the Potters aware Voldie was after them but was maybe even there the night they died and told them Sirius had betrayed them (wouldn't he have thought Sirius was the secret keeper?). James didn't believe Sirius would do that, and that's the incident Snape was referring to in his confrontation with Harry.

Anybody with access to the books got that section handy?

[Nys]

Yeah you've got it about right!

But I don't think it was Snape that told Dumbledore about the Potter's being on Voldie's hit list, I think it'd make most of the story revolve around Snape. I mean he's important, but I don't think everything that Dumbledore finds out about Voldie comes from Snape, he'd have to have other spies as well.

[Pegasus]

As someone pointed out on another thread, it took a great deal of courage for Snape to show Fudge his Dark Mark. He was presenting it as solid evidence--I don't understand how it would discredit Dumbledore at all--and Fudge could have easily just thrown Snape to the dementors. Snape is in a unique position to be a spy, and as such, he's a great asset to the Order. Snape has never proven unworthy of Dumbledore's trust--in fact, just the opposite. The only doubt anyone has shown comes from school kids who don't like him--and I greatly trust Dumbledore over them. Also remember that Hermione is really the smartest of the bunch, and ever since Book One, Hermione basically does the "eye roll" whenever anyone suggests wrongdoing on Snape's part.

[ravenclawgrl]

I think Severus can be trusted. Although his work for the Order could be suspected to be spy work, in the previous books he has always shown loyalty to Dumbledore. I doubt this would change. JK sometimes tries to lead us into thinking Snape is bad. For instance, in SS, when Harry thought Snape was trying to control his broom, he was actually trying to stop Quirrell from doing it. JK likes to lead us on. So Snape really can't be bad.

[Pegasus]

I just commented on this in another thread. Interesting how everyone seems to be talking about the same thing:) How did I put it...I think Rowling is playing with our heads, and having a wonderful time doing it. Sometime during the next two books we're all going to smack ourselves in the head and say, "Oh, duh!" (It sounds even less intelligent with the second post!) Oh, she's doing a wonderful job.

[stic]

We can seriously try to figure Snape out. But we have to think like a cop.

All Snape worshippers and haters: Please take the time to read and think this through, best keep the book handy so you can check me. Don't skim through and reply something like: "Well, uh, I trust Dumbledore's judgement." or "I just like him and want him to be good"

JKR the masterful deceiver has challenged us. Let's
switch to cop-mode now

Subject: first Occlumency lesson in OotP:

Timeframe: The Lesson begins on a Monday at six o clock in the evening, about the same time as the Azkaban breakout of the 10 DEs (the Tuesday edition of the the Daily Prophet reports that "ten high security prisoners escaped in the early hours of yesterday evening" , page 481 OotP, british hardcover, some time might have elapsed between the actual breakout and the time it had been noticed---remember: the Dementors were under Voldemort's control and basically let them go)

It had been Voldy's plan to put Bode under the Imperius curse and make him steal the Prophecy because "Avery told (Voldy) that Bode would be able to remove it" (page 516) . Well, the DE Avery was wrong, Bode got insane and landed in St. Mungos and just a short time before the first Occlumency lesson he gets sent a "pot plant" (p.453) which turns out to be Devil's Snare. Well, that's a Crucio for Avery for messing up.
At this point The Dark Lord desperately wants to know why it didn't work and how he could make it work now. Hmmm, wait... he's got a DE rotting in Azkaban who "used to work in the Department (of Mysteries) after- after all..." (p 515) : Rookwood! Hah, it's finally time to get him and the others out, Rookwood will know how to get the prophecy.
And so it was done.
Almost TWO CHAPTERS worth of time after the Azkaban breakout (and the first Occlumency lesson) Harry has a vision of Rookwood and Voldy.
The Dark Lord asks at the beginning: "You are sure of your facts, Rookwood?" (515) He must have told Voldy that only he or Harry can lift the prophecy of the shelves. Now, when do you think this chat really took place? Before the Azkaban breakout (and the first Occlumency lesson) Voldy DESPERATELY wanted to know why the Bode-plan failed and how he can get the prophecy now. Do you really think Voldy waited almost TWO CHAPTERS WORTH OF TIME until he asked Rookwood for this information? Isn't it safe to assume that Voldy INSTANTLY touched his Dark Mark to summon Rookwood and the other 9 DEs as soon as they were in safe distance from Azkaban? ( Heck, they could have jumped into the water and disapparated!) The Dark Lord hates to wait, when he calls everybody has to come, PRONTO !
But I thought Harry's visions at night were live and realtime?
Well, since he saw Arthur Weasley's attack Voldy and Dumbledore have been both aware of the mind-connection of Harry. Since that point of awareness Voldy surely has upped HIS own defense against mind intrusion and that would mean Harry's visions after that do NOT have to be live and realtime anymore; a time delay could be a result of Voldy's blocking-efforts, later Voldy is even able to manipulate and give Harry a completely fake vision of a tortured Sirius!
Now I come to Snape. Hem hem, I BELIEVE HE HONESTLY ABANDONED THE DARK LORD ONCE BECAUSE THE LIFE OF SOMEBODY HE ACTUALLY CARED ABOUT WAS ON THE LINE: LILY EVANS. BUT I THINK HE DECIDED TO TURN BACK TO VOLDEMORT BETWEEN THE END OF POA AND THE END OF GOF.
Please follow me: OotP, early Monday evening Rookwood and the other DE's escape (get released by the Dementors), they are instantly summoned by the Dark Lord and Rookwood tells his story. Voldy makes up his new plan. It requires Harry to be lured into the MoM to lift the prophecy off the shelf so it can be taken from him afterwards. Therefore it is necessary:

-to have a reason for him him go there (which became a manipulated vision of a Sirius Black who needed help),
-to constantly weaken Harry's mind to enable the intrusions and finally the manipulation (done by Snape who has been delegated to teach him Occlumency)
-to make Harry know WHERE to go: the MoM/ Dep. of Mysteries. Snape's mission in the very first Occlumency lesson. Let's assume
this for a moment and dive into it:
In the pretalk Snape gets agitated by Harry's use of the name Voldemort,
Harry replies quietly: "Professor Dumbledore uses his name."
"Dumledore is an extremely powerful wizard" Snape muttered. While he may feel secure enough to use the name... the rest of us..." He rubbed his left forearm, apparently unconsciously, on the spot where Harry knew the Dark Mark was burned into his skin" (p. 470)
Snape is highly afraid of Voldemort, just as all DE's are. They are all scared of messing up, read again how Bellatrix Lestrange freaks out in the final confrontation when Harry yells at her that the prophecy she was supposed to obtain had smashed.
So Snape knows how important his mission in the first Occlumency lesson is. But it should be easy, Harry's just a kid and he a pro. Snape is only under moderate pressure so far. First go:
"Snape had struck before Harry was ready, before he he had even begun to summon any form of resistance." (p.471) Harry has extraordinary
powers regarding defence against the Dark Arts, JKR specially reminds us again at this point that he was the only one who could throw off the imperius curse IN A VERY SHORT TIME. And now:
Snape gets only a couple of short flashes and when he reaches the Cho-memory he gets thrown out of Harry's head! Harry even produced a kind of non-incantation-stinging-hex! Doesn't it hit you that Harry is NOT a loser in Occlumens/mind-defense but a real talent?
Snape's pressure rises, he did not expect this. He must make it harder
for Harry:
He increases his anger by taunting him for one of his memories ("to whom did the dog belong?",p.472), and various insults. Harry thinks: "Let go of his anger? He could as easily detach his legs..., (p.473)
He increases Harry's fear ("now I want you to shut your eyes." ,p. 472)

Next go: Snape gets only three short flashes this time! The last one is the Dead Cedric, one of Harry's most horrifying memories, he cries "NOOOOOOO!" and Snape gets thrown out again. That wasn't a NOOOOOO of defeat, that was a NOOOOO of regaining control and breaking free!
Now Snape is unnerved: " Get up! (he) said sharply. "Get up! You are not trying, you are making no effort. You are allowing me access to memories you fear, handing me weapons!" (p.473) Allowing me access? Man, he just threw you out of his head in no time! No matter how often Snape says that Harry is "not doing it", HE IS.
"Snape looked paler than usual", (he always does that when he's extremely scared!) "and angrier" (maybe sign of panic),p.473 . What other than the fear of messing up and having to face Voldemort would make him freak out SO INAPPROPIATELY MUCH?
Now Snape has to give it all he can:
He gets a few flashes and then reaches the memory of the black door and the corridor... and Arthur Weasley leading Harry off to the left, down a flight of stone steps... " I KNOW! I KNOW!
Harry recognizes FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER that the corridor he had been dreaming about for months is in the MOM / Department of Mysteries.
And...... "It looked as though, this time, Snape had lifted the spell before Harry had even tried to fight back." Notice how carefully that sentence is constructed, it leads us to believe that Snape has lifted the spell ALL THREE times. And Snape asks: "What happened then, Potter?, eying Harry intently. I saw-I remembered, Harry panted.
I've just realised..." (p.474) "...and I think Voldemort wants something from-" (p.475) Bingo.
Snape immediately ends the lesson and not more than an hour later
Harry breaks down in his dormitory because he feels Voldy is
"the happiest he had been in 14 years" . These sharings of emotions WHILE AWAKE are most likely to be live and real time. A spontanious emotion is not a vision of events or memories. The next day people read in the Daily Prophet about the Azkaban breakout, and Ron says: "There you are Harry. That's why he was happy last night." (p. 481)
I don't buy that distraction. Note the emphasis on "the happiest in 14 years", what was Voldy so EXTEMELY happy about 14 years ago? He thought he could kill the only one who would ever be able to destroy him as a 1-year-old baby, because the fragment of the prophecy
told him who it was. Voldy would not be happy in that exact same amount just because he had had his DE's released. He made a new plan the same evening that would bring him the prophecy AND would finally result in the death of the only one who could ever vanish him. Get my point? Rookwood's supposed to have told the Dark Lord about how to get his prophecy 2 chapters worth of time after he got released from Azkaban? Nah.
And Snape did what he was told. Then and later on. As Occlumency continues Harry feels that he turns into a sort of aerial and his resistance gets constantly weaker, "he was sure he could date this increased sensitivity firmly from his Occlumency lesson with Snape." (p. 489)
What distractions are we given? Snape's anger in all the Occlumency lessons
comes from the usual "I-hate-Potter-and-his-father-stuff" and because Harry is absolutely not supposed to make any realizations about the Dep. of Mysteries.
Remember how Snape asks in the PERFECT moment "What happened then, Potter?" so that Harry would realize.
We will learn so much more about Snape's past until the final showdown that I believe most readers will love and pity and trust him. And then.......
WHAM! They'll get whacked over the head so violently that the shock is really effective. From a writer's standpoint this would be the greatest achievement and IMO the most interesting way for the story to turn out. The alternative is just so much tamer.
"Time and space matter in magic potter" (Severus Snape, p.469)

[Wesley Senior]

I've got a rather far out theory on why Dumbledore trusts Snape. Here goes the fowl person he is met and a women and fell in love with her (hope not Lily) but she refused to be with him as long as he worked for Voldemort. Voldemort spots Snapes love for this women and triies to squash it by killing her before Snape makes up his mind. Snape completely distraught goes to DD and tells him he was a DE and now hates Voldemort for what he did to the love of his life and wants to help bring him down to honor his lost love.

Far Fetched I know but what do you think?

[heirofslytherin_dm]

Well it does add an oddly twisted perspective on the Snape I love. While it is interesting I do think it is quite far-fetched. I mean he has to have some dark and mysterious reason not to be DE, it just seems like there has to be some evil work afoot here. I personally can't wait to find out just why DD trusts him so much. Then again the way JKR throws in twists, you could be right.

[_Draco_Malfoy_]

I've seen JKR is trying to create a lil confussion in ur mind for make HP be more and more interrestng But I always trust n Severus Snape ... And I don't think that snape was on the place where Potters died in that night ... I think that Voldemort was alone ...

[Doggy]

I agree that Dumbledore probably didn't directly just accept Snape's story. Of course, we don't know how or why or in which situation Snape turned around - if it was just Snape one day coming up to Dumbledore and saying that he had switched sides, or if it was more stormy. Dumbledore isn't foolish enough to just say "fine" at once.

However, Dumbledore is very trusting. Of course, this may be because Dumbledore has lived a long time, and has gotten used to how "people's minds work" to put it roughly, but I think that, at least in the beginning, Dumbledore was forced to accept Snape mostly on trust, before Snape had a chance to prove himself and his loyalty.

Still, by now I'm pretty sure that Snape can be trusted. So far, we haven't heard of any way that Snape has done something wrong - even though that may be because he works in secret of course - and you'd think that he would have shown himself at least once during all these years.

Besides, I think it's good for JKR to show "goodness" from another angle. Not everyone who works for the right side has to be just and fair and sweet-tempered and caring etc. Some can be annoying and stuck up and proud, and quick to hold grudges (like Snape).

[Bjornar]

I think that is a very romantic idea and I like it. The motivation of Snape towards and eventually away (hopefully a permanent shift) has been and will be the subject of many wild and ranging theories. I personally trust him though I don't have a specific reason. I think the fact that he's unpleasent and even cruel at times just makes him more colorful. I say "Snape, go on with your bad self!" Perhaps what he has for harry could even be considered a most extreme "tough love."

Edit: left out a key word!

[Azkaban escapee]

Snape was a DE we know that. In POA Sirius say Peter was passing on info to Voldemort for a year, in GOF Dumbledore say Snape joined his side shortly before Voldemort lost power, so this makes me wonder did Snape know Peter was the spy. If he knew that then he would have know Sirius was innocent BUT he never told anyone he let him stay in Azkaban.

If Snape is able to lie to Voldy then he will be able to lie to Dumbledore. And as other have pointed out why does he call Voldy the dark lord? and he gets angry with Harry for have the guts to say Voldemort just like Bellatrix did.

I personally wont trust Snape until I see evidence and until the things I have mentioned are explained.

I have my own theory on Snape which is probably will off the mark and I will be posting it soon

[sfaist]

Ok, here is my guestimate.

We know James saved Snape from getting killed by Lupin when he was a Werewolf. DD says to Harry that he may find a time where is glad he saved Wormtail's life.

My guess is that when Voldy decided to target the Potters, Snape went and told DD and started passing information to him. When Snape couldn't save James, he still felt he needed to save Harry to repay his debt to James.

Now, as to can Snape be trusted. I think absolutely not. I think Snape will fall back to Voldemort's camp and think that DD will be killed in book 7 because of Snape's betrayal. I think we will begin to see evidence of this in the next book. I think Harry will go through great leaps in magical ability in Book 6 in order to setup the ultimate showdown in Book 7.

[Lanc]

Snape was a DE we know that. In POA Sirius say Peter was passing on info to Voldemort for a year, in GOF Dumbledore say Snape joined his side shortly before Voldemort lost power, so this makes me wonder did Snape know Peter was the spy. If he knew that then he would have know Sirius was innocent BUT he never told anyone he let him stay in Azkaban.

If Snape is able to lie to Voldy then he will be able to lie to Dumbledore. And as other have pointed out why does he call Voldy the dark lord? and he gets angry with Harry for have the guts to say Voldemort just like Bellatrix did.

I personally wont trust Snape until I see evidence and until the things I have mentioned are explained.

I have my own theory on Snape which is probably will off the mark and I will be posting it soon

Snape might not have known Peter was the spy. We know from Karkaroff's evidence at his trial that not all the Death Eaters knew who all the other Death Eaters were, so I can quite easily see Snape not having known who the spy was, though it might have been him that passed on the information that there was a spy. Also, even if he did know Peter was a spy, why would he believe Sirius to be innocent? As far as everybody knew, it was Sirius who was the secret keeper, therefore he must have betrayed them. Unless Snape also knew the secret keeper had been changed to Peter, he would naturally (especially with his prejudices were Sirius is concerned) believe him to be guilty. And if he did know, and assumed Peter to be dead (or maybe even if he didn't), I could see him allowing Sirius to go to Azkaban, given his grudge against him, though that wouldn't necessarily be loyalty or disloyalty to Dumbledore or Voldemort.

As for his problems with Harry calling Voldemort by his name, he's not the only one. There was a time when Ron got quite annoyed with Harry over his habit of naming Voldemort. And he would have got so used to calling him "the Dark Lord" when he was a Death Eater that he would probably find it hard to think of him any other way.

I'm not certain of Snape's loyalty. I tend to trust him at the minute, possibly partly because I've twice doubted him and been proved wrong. I think Dumbledore must have good reason to believe Snape's changed sides, whatever that reason is. I wouldn't rule out Snape changing sides again, however. But, for now at least, I think he can be trusted, even if it's only as far as Hagrid could throw him.

[blackjack21]

It's hard to know whether Snape is trustworthy or not. However, there is a startling bit of evidence that supports he is trustworthy.

1.Snape saved Harry's life in the 1st book. If Snape was willing to protect someone whose father he hated so bitterly, then why can't we think him genuine.

2.The books say "Dumbledore trusts where other people wouldn't." Obviously Dumbledore took in Hagrid (a giant) and Lupin (a werewolf), which are two of the most hated groups in the wizarding world. So, why would Dumbledore hire a former Death Eater, the ultimate in evil, to be a teacher, if Dumbledore didn't trust him?

3.Many of us do believe it was Snape who warned the Potters about Voldemort. Again, if Snape would help protect the man whom he hated, why isn't he trustworthy?

Despite any feelings of ill will we may harbor towards Snape because of his foul personaliy and attitude, we cannot discount what evidence the books have given us. I have simply written a few, but much more evidence exists. So, I am of the opinion that Snape is trustworthy and will play a large impact in the final 2 books still to come.

[Haeton]

I don't completely trust Snape yet as ssome others have stated. I thing he still has a long way to go. The animosity he shows for everyone involved with the Order still bothers me. I will not trust Snape until the series for done and over and all the pieces fall where they may. I can however see Snape dieing if he is truelly on the side of good.

[Hatake Kakashi]

What I've always thought is that Lucius and the Dark Lord don't know Snape is a traitor. We all know that the Dark Lord knows Legilimens, but was it merely a coincidence that Snape used someone not unlike him as an example for Occlumency? I think not! (If you don't remember, it's the chapter where Snape explains Occlumency to Harry - he says that only a Death Eater who is a skilled Occlumens can lie to the Dark Lord's face).

And perhaps Dumbledore won't give Snape the Defense Against the Dark Arts post because of other reasons. Maybe Snape's lesson plans include learning the Dark Arts, like in Durmstrang, instead of just Defense against it. Who knows? I am quite surer that it'll be revealed in the future books.

[UselessCharmMaster]

I don't completely trust Snape yet as ssome others have stated. I thing he still has a long way to go. The animosity he shows for everyone involved with the Order still bothers me. I will not trust Snape until the series for done and over and all the pieces fall where they may.

Uhm, he doesn't show his animosity to all members of the Order. He doesn't like the young Weasleys (because he doesn't like his students in general), but we never see him interact with Arthur and Molly. He hates Sirius and Lupin, but this is not because they are in the Order. McGonagall is in the Order, and I've always thought he respected her.

[wavy]

I don't think its as simple as Snape can or cannot be trusted, and I don't think DD is just trusting him b/c he has a trusting nature. DD presented EVIDENCE that Snape spied for the Order and was no more a DE than DD himself. So, in my mind, its not just like DD is making a leap of faith with his trust. He's seen proof, and apparently it wasn't just proof enough to convince the trusting DD. It was proof enough to keep Snape out of Azkaban, so it had to be pretty good.

I don't think JKR has invested this much time developing contradictions in Snape's character for the result to be: he was working for Voldie the whole time or he was working for DD the whole time. Like Sirius, he's got his flaws that make him do things he shouldn't.

In my mind, the question is whether Snape's flaws will have results as disastrous as Sirius', whether that means his own death or someone else's or doing something that hurts the order. I have no doubt right now that he changed sides (of course JKR could convince me otherwise in later books), and I don't think right now that he would through intentional premeditated planning switch back, but I'm not sure his weaknesses might not come back to haunt him in some way.

[sirius_gerl]

I think Snape can be trusted, even though Harry doesn't like him. I think Harry is just singling all of the good parts of Snape out...even though we don't know any...:lol:...i think DD has a good reason to trust him...and we will find out sooner or later in the books.

[mevam]

I don't trust Snape, and I am not deterred by the fact that Dumbledore thinks Snape is a jolly good ol' Order member now. Dumbledore is not superhuman, and as JK pointed out in OOTP, he has made significant errors of judgment in his past, so why now something as huge as trusting Snape with no good reason to do so? If the Order members welcomed Snape to their side because he spied on the Death Eaters, then I'm sure Voldemort would accept the same offer if Snape offered him some dirt on the Order.

[nightingale]

I don't think that Voldemort would accept Snape back, if he is indeed on the good side. He's not like DD, I don't think he gives second chances. Personally, I think some people in the Order have their doubts about Snape, too, they just don't share them in front of the "children".

[mevam]

Voldemort isn't dumb enough to pass up a chance to get inside news on the Order's doings. He would be wise enough to pretend as though he accepted Snape back, and only backstab him when he was of no more use. That's what Voldemort does, essentially, he uses people for their skills, and once they are nothing more but burdens, he kills them.

[nightingale]

Definitely, I agree. I just said he wouldn't accept him back. I mean, why wouldn't he use him?

[mevam]

If Dumbledore dies sometime in the next two books, and he is the only one who seems to trust Snape, why wouldn't Snape be tempted to turn back over to the other side? Makes me wonder...

[Rahven]

I Would trust Snape for 4 different reasons

1. He is probably the person who "tipped off Dumbledore of the attack on the Potters
2. Dumbledore trusts him
3. Dumbledore trusts other people where others wouldn't (Lupin and Hagrid for example)
4. Dumbledore doen't say he trusts people for no reason

[Girl]

I don`t trust Snape and I feel that he will show his true colours soon. I remember in an interview JK did just after OotP came out she said that we should not be too trusting of Snape and that there is a reason why Dumbledore never gave Snape the DADA job.

Snape may be on the good side but he has a dark and bad side to him. I feel that although the members of the Order trust Snape they don`t trust him 100%. Not even Dumbledor trust Snape fully otherwise why has Snape never gotten the DADA job?

[wavy]

Girl, JKR never said we shouldn't be too trusting of Snape. What she has said is that we "shouldn't think him too nice," which in my mind is a different issue. She also said in one of her earliest interviews that Snape was a horrible person but that there was more to him than meets the eye and we should keep our eye on him.

All this demonstrates definitively is that: a) Snape is not a nice person (duh!); and b) Snape is going to be significant in the future.

And we don't know what DD's reasons are for trusting Snape, so who's to say he has no good reason. What I always come back to is Karkaroff's trial. DD presented enough hard evidence to convince the Ministry that Snape was spying for the Order. Unless I see some indication otherwise, we have no reason to doubt that Snape DID, in fact, spy during the first war. So why would he switch now? What has changed?
There's a lot we don't know, but I think Snape HAS proven himself - 15 years ago.

And another thing that I think is VERY significant. DD always emphasizes to Harry the importance of trusting other Order members. What has not trusting Snape gotten Harry so far? Well, it quite possibly got Sirius killed. JKR wrote Sirius' death in such a way that if Harry had believed in Snape, Sirius probably wouldn't have gotten killed. Why ON EARTH would JKR have written Sirius' death in such a way if we weren't meant to learn that Harry has to ultimately learn to have faith in Snape?

[y0rkie]

I totally agree, I think that it is possible for someone to be mean, but trustworthy. Different people have different priorities and morals and Snape may just be someone who believes very strongly in being trustworthy, but who doesn't much care about going about it in a nice manner.

[Bouncing_Ferret]

I'm frankly quite scared at JK's comment regarding Snape - I can handle the fact that he's not nice, that's fine, I'm used to it, but the possibility that he could still turn bad? No, I don't like that at all!

I really, really want to be able to trust him, as he is one of the major players in the plot - he's possibly the cleverest Order member there is, apart from DD. I think I'm just going to have to trust him - if Dumbledore does, then that's enough for me. I hope. *shuts eyes and waits for something terrible to happen*

[harlle15]

for me! while im reading the books the other side of me is telling that Snape can be trusted but the other half no... why?? simply b'coz im not that sure of what snape character is?? in book 1 he's very you know kinda evil same on book 2... on book 3 well! kinda jealous i think coz he really wanted 2 get a order of merlin frst class and didnt get it.. book4 kinda i cnt tell well! book 5 kinda u can trust him but idnt really know.. they tell taht he's on dumbledore side but i kinda dnt know for that's what i know.... ciao!

[Jade Evans]

Like Hermione, I believe Snape can be trusted. He might be bound by some kind of magic to not turn to the dark side again. I don't have proof for that, just a wild theory I have.

[onyxmoon]

i believe that he turned to the good side. who knows, perhaps in later books it could look as he's back on the dark side (for the sake of his "job"), dunno.
anyway, i definitely doubt the theory that he's bounded by any sort of magic. if dumbledore trusts him he wouldn't do a thing like that and if the ministry ordered a thing like that i doubt that he'd agree to it.

[Katarzyna]

I think Snape can be trusted to be loyal to Dumbledore and the Order. However, I don't think Snape can be trusted to master his own emotions.

I think some people have made a good point in that it behooves Snape to be nasty to Harry in public--especially in front of Malfoy and other Slytherins. But there's no excuse for the way Snape treats Harry during occlumency lessons. Instead of instructing Harry on how to close his mind to Voldemort, Snape seemed to use the lessons as an opportunity to mentally torture Harry. I believe Harry did indeed become more vunerable after Snape started "teaching" him occlumency, not because Snape meant to make him vunerable, but because Snape couldn't control himself.

Also, Snape saw some mighty suspicious things going on in Harry's mind. He should have deduced these visions were put there by Voldemort, and warned Harry about exactly what they were. Harry's ignorance led to him going to the Ministry, and while we can blame Dumbledore for that ignorance, Snape is also partially to blame.

Snape stopping the lessons was also inexcusable. Yes, Snape had every right to be angry with Harry for looking in the Pensieve, and every right to punish him for it. Given the high emotions they were both feeling, it was probably a good idea for Snape to cancel that evening's lesson. But to continue to not teach Harry, and to ignore him? That was wrong, and immature, and was partially the reason why Harry didn't trust Snape, and didn't go to him when he had the vision of Sirius. Someone previously mentioned that Harry didn't trust Snape, and that led to Sirius' death. That's true, but Snape has never given Harry much reason to trust him. I doubt Snape would have to go to great lengths--Harry seems like a very trusting person--but Snape can't bring himself to do it.

In conclusion, I think Snape's inability to master his own emotions led him to let down not only Harry, but the entire Order of the Phoenix. I hope Dumbledore addresses this problem... well, actually, it would create more tension in the story if Dumbledore didn't address the problem, but to benefit the OotP, Dumbledore needs to help Snape adjust his attitude.

[wavy]

I think Snape can be trusted to be loyal to Dumbledore and the Order. However, I don't think Snape can be trusted to master his own emotions.

I think some people have made a good point in that it behooves Snape to be nasty to Harry in public--especially in front of Malfoy and other Slytherins. But there's no excuse for the way Snape treats Harry during occlumency lessons. Instead of instructing Harry on how to close his mind to Voldemort, Snape seemed to use the lessons as an opportunity to mentally torture Harry. I believe Harry did indeed become more vunerable after Snape started "teaching" him occlumency, not because Snape meant to make him vunerable, but because Snape couldn't control himself.

Also, Snape saw some mighty suspicious things going on in Harry's mind. He should have deduced these visions were put there by Voldemort, and warned Harry about exactly what they were. Harry's ignorance led to him going to the Ministry, and while we can blame Dumbledore for that ignorance, Snape is also partially to blame.

Snape stopping the lessons was also inexcusable. Yes, Snape had every right to be angry with Harry for looking in the Pensieve, and every right to punish him for it. Given the high emotions they were both feeling, it was probably a good idea for Snape to cancel that evening's lesson. But to continue to not teach Harry, and to ignore him? That was wrong, and immature, and was partially the reason why Harry didn't trust Snape, and didn't go to him when he had the vision of Sirius. Someone previously mentioned that Harry didn't trust Snape, and that led to Sirius' death. That's true, but Snape has never given Harry much reason to trust him. I doubt Snape would have to go to great lengths--Harry seems like a very trusting person--but Snape can't bring himself to do it.

In conclusion, I think Snape's inability to master his own emotions led him to let down not only Harry, but the entire Order of the Phoenix. I hope Dumbledore addresses this problem... well, actually, it would create more tension in the story if Dumbledore didn't address the problem, but to benefit the OotP, Dumbledore needs to help Snape adjust his attitude.


I think its exactly right that Snape can't necessarily be trusted to master his own emotions!! AND, what's even more interesting is that JKR has never really shown us how far Snape will go in those irrational moments.

In the Shrieking Shack, he gets knocked out before we see if he'll really call the Dememtors. And in the occlumency lessons - well, DD later admits to Harry that he knew Snape stopped them, and he apparently never ordered Snape to resume them (I suspect at that point, they knew occlumency wasn't what was going to help Harry). So we never find out how far Snape would have gone in refusing lessons if they had been considered important at the time he stopped them.

I think JKR is purposefully withholding here. If Snape ends up doing anything that harms the Order, it won't be because he favors V, it will be because he can't control his own weaknesses at times.

[onyxmoon]

the fact is that with all this info witholding we just want to now more because we've seen almost every character react to his/hers full extent except snape.
perhaps JK is waiting until the very end to show his true colors.

[noxerised]

i think that the 'great personal risk' that Snape has on the line would make Dumbledore trust him...but it's not just that...Snape saves Harry on several occasions, regardless of how he treats him in his classes...

Snape was on the Dark Side, and was very experienced w/ the Dark Arts, and since Dumbledore doesn't consider Potions to be Dark Arts, he doesn't really have the chance to refine his Dark Arts...sure, some potions are bad, but just b/c they are bad or harmful doesn't make it a Dark Art, since there are good potions as well...

I agree w/ the alcoholic analogy completely in this case...

[Fool]

Well if we look at some of the memories that were briefly shown in OoTP, you get a little insight into Snape's past.

For instance the scene of him cowering in a corner why a hook nosed man screamed at a woman, presumably his father and his mother. Very likely, Snape had an abusive father. Snape became extremely introverted growing up, prefering to be by himself. Chances are, Snape's father was very much a "pure blood" fanatic, deep in the dark arts, and it rubbed off on him.

We know Snape ran with a crowd that all turned out to be Death Eaters. We also know from Sirius explaining his family history to Harry, that with Voldemort you don't get cold feet. Lifetime of service or death. Possibly someone Snape cared about was murdered by Voldemort. Perhaps his mother?

Snape had turned spy prior to Voldemort going after Harry, so it's very likely that an event such as the death of a loved one would trigger him to change loyalty.

[Scarlet Tears]

I'm really torn on this issue. The skeptical side of me warns not to trust anyone or make any assumptions (I guess I've read to many mystery novels), and I agree with Katarzyna's and Wavy's assertion that Snape cannot be trusted to control his emotions, as their evidence has clearly pointed out. Yet another part of me feels that Snape can ultimately be trusted because he must have shown some pretty convincing evidence to prove to Dumbledore that he was worthy of receiving his trust. When Harry went into Dumbledore's Pensieve, Dumbledore sounded very certain that Snape is no longer a Death Eater, as he turned spy for the Order before Voldemort's dowfall. However, I'm not sure that even Dumbledore trusts Snape completely. For instance, he still refuses to allow him to teach Defense Against the Dark Arts for unknown reasons. And Dumbledore may have simply trusted Snape in the beginning because they were desperate enough to accept his offer to spy on Voldemort. Perhaps in order to trust Snape, we need to first ask ourselves whether or not we can trust Dumbledore's judgement on him.

[harripottrfreek]

I want to be sure Snape is good, but until the end of book 7 i dont think i will trust that he is completely good or bad. JKR has some tricks and I am sure Snape is somewhere in them. I am not sure what to think of Snape anymore because of when Malfoy said that he should be the new headmaster Snape didnt say no...great loyalty to DD...I dont know about him...net yet.

[CicadaInvasion]

Snape is a man on the road to redemption. He has obviously completed the first step in admitting his guilt and severe indescretion to Dumbledore. I do believe however, the character created by his youth, and nature, perhaps leave him with dark tendancies...example...he has a salvagable personage, and soul, but if allowed to be overly reunited with the dark arts, his character and nature are so inclined that he might return into Voldemort's service. He knows this. But the redeemed man within him brings him to help Harry, however discreetly, because Snape knows that the hope for the world's salvation rest upon Harry.

[Fawkes_Reborn]

If you rearrange the letters in Severus Snape, you get Persius Evans. (I'm sure all of you have read this anagram before, it's not new news.) Anyway, Lily Potter's maiden name was Evans, and there's a Mark Evans at the beginning of OotP, the 10 year old boy Dudley beat up. Coincidence? Maybe Snape is related to Harry in some way, and, much to his extreme dislpeasure in having to do so, he feels an obligation to protect him even though he hates him.

[full_moon0714]

i dunno....i really think snape's changed cuz DD trusts him,right?so,if DD trusts him then we should trust him too....but i still don't like him...^^

[glugunkwen]

I have tried and tried to NOT trust Snape, but I just can't! He is horrible to Harry, but then there are these brief moments when he shows slivers of being protective. His trustworthiness has been questioned by several, but I just get the feeling he is more loyal than any realize.

I think his loyalty to Dumbledore, and Harry for that matter, come from something we don't know about yet. And I think his previous involvement as a death eater is pretty important to that. Can't wait to find out what it is!

[Sirk Rolyat]

i think he can be.. but that might just be because i feel sorry for him :(

[emerald eyes]

I'm really stuck on the fence with this issue. I really, really want to trust Snape and to believe in him. I want to see him be "redeemed." He's my favorite character. I think sometimes, maybe its a struggle for him to do right but he knows he has to. But I'm so scared that JK going to have him turn back to his old ways before the end.

[loislane]

hi, i'have wondered about this but havent had my books with me to check up on it: in PoA snape reviels himself in the shrieking shack and says while he's trowing down the unvisebility cloack "thanks harry, thats very usefull..." now...when did Snape find out Harry owns this cloak? i thought it was a secret!
who can help me on this one?
By the way...I think Jk will leave us in doubt about snape's true loyalties until the very end...i mean, he IS one of the most interesting characters because of his mystery!

[Dead Star]

hi, i'have wondered about this but havent had my books with me to check up on it: in PoA snape reviels himself in the shrieking shack and says while he's trowing down the unvisebility cloack "thanks harry, thats very usefull..." now...when did Snape find out Harry owns this cloak?

He probably knew that Harry's dad owned the cloak before him and therefore Harry inherited it.

Anyway, I believe Severus can be trusted. Yes, he's not all that nice to the trio, but that's most likely because they remind him of the Marauders (minus Wormtail). I don't think he's evil, I mean, he's done a lot of good things (excluding joining the Death Eaters...didn't he leave them before Voldemort lost his powers though?), and he's very intelligent and dead useful to the Order. But then again I might be biased since he's one of my favorite characters.

[young@heart]

Hi! I'm still new to this whole forum thing and it's quite tricky doing searches to find exactly what I want to discuss *sigh* I did post this on another thread about Snape but i think it's an old one. Never mind! Hopefully my thoughts on Snape will fit in this thread too so i've pasted it.

I've built up quite a theory about Snape. His character is the one which intrigues me the most.

We haven't been told much about him. The snippet of his past in OotP is fascinating! He has had an unhappy childhood which undoubtedly led to him joining Voldemort. What is his purpose in the whole scheme of things though?

I believe he was a true Death Eater and he was the one who overheard the prophecy. It is not revealed to us who the eavesdropper was and it is entirely plausible that Snape went to Voldemort with his information. When was the prophecy made? (Just found in OotP it was 16yrs ago! - but that still gives a whole year before Harry's parents were killed!) When was Snape employed? Could it be that after the fall of Voldemort Dumbledore decided that he needed Snape for some reason and employed him as Potions Master?! This reason could be because Snape heard the prophecy and Dumbldore needed to keep the prophecy quiet - no-one else knew only Trelawney who is protected by Dumbledore.

Snape is now working for Dumbledore. Yet he maintains his facade of disliking anyone who's not a Slytherin, he favours Malfoy and possibly other DE children. They may not realise he is Dumbledore's spy! He has not given anybody any reason to suspect him of turning away from Voldemort's values ect.. Those DE's who evaded Azkaban, including Lucius, would have possibly maintained their loyalty to Voldemort yet had to convince everyone else that they were upstanding members of the community for many years. Snape's employment at Hogwarts would therefore not be suspicious.

Over the summer after GoF he returned to Voldermort "at great personal risk". If Voldemort ever discovers he is Dumbledore's ally he will be killed. His mission therefore is extremely dangerous. His skills of Occulmency and quite probably Legilimency have kept him alive so far. He is respected by all the DE's and is also Lucius Malfoy's friend which makes all information given to Voldemort accesible.

Perhaps his relationship with Harry is the most frustrating! He despised James and Sirius - Harry embodies them and therefore he hates Harry. He protects Harry only because of orders from Dumbledore. At the end of the day Snape will not want to betray the trust he has built with Dumbledore. The fact remains that he is not the Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher and therefore is not in a position to be tempted back to that aspect of his life. Yes, Dumbledore trusts Snape to a degree, but there is a risk involved. Why hasn't he ever been given the DADA job?!

Snape probably was the "coward" who didn't come when summoned in the graveyard in GoF. Voldemort will suspect that Snape, like Karkaroff, is afraid because he denied his dealings with DE's & Voldemort and not guess the truth. Therefore Snape had to earn back his place. I wonder how?! In the Department of Mysteries I doubt every single DE was there which would excuse Snape's absence.

JKR has warned us not to shut our eyes to Snape. There is a complex battle in the man to do what is right. It is possible that he will not remain loyal to Dumbledore forever! Can Voldemort offer him more? I guess we'll find out in Book 6 & 7.

I know I've asked more questions than given answers but he certainly keeps me on my toes!!

[emerald eyes]

:welcome: young@heart !

I think you just pretty much agree with my thoughts on Snape as well. I just never have taken the time to type it all out! Lazy me! :lol: I have to say that I never thought about him as being the one that overheard, but I like it and I think it would really fit.
I've always believed that he was a true DE but not for too long and that huge happened to make him change sides - probably at some point after he started teaching - may at Voldemort's downfall to Harry, realizing that the Prophecy was actually being fulfilled. I also think that he took the teaching job first to spy on Dumbledore. :agree:

[young@heart]

Yeah it took me a while to type up! It is quite possible that Snape took the position at Hogwarts initially to spy on Dumbledore. However I generally disagree that he is a "double agent" as suggested by lots of people. He is certainly working for Dumbledore and getting information for him, there isn't any substantial reason he would be doing the same thing for Voldemort. If he is indeed the eavesdropper then he didn't hear the full prophecy - or maybe just didn't reaveal it all to Voldemort!!

[Serpentine]

It is quite possible that Snape took the position at Hogwarts initially to spy on Dumbledore. However I generally disagree that he is a "double agent" as suggested by lots of people. He is certainly working for Dumbledore and getting information for him, there isn't any substantial reason he would be doing the same thing for Voldemort.

I don't know whether or not Snape was the eavesdropper, and to be honest I don't care if it was him or Wormtail or Regulus or whoever. He could have heard the part revealed to Voldemort in a different way - maybe he was present when it was revealed, or he was ordered to find out who it could be referring to.

Still, if he was initially sent to spy on Dumbledore and turned sides later (and I quite like the theory), he'd have to bring SOME kind of information back to Voldemort. Same thing now - obviously he still has the trust of his former master, or he wouldn't be able to run around alive and spying for the Order. So he could very well be a double-spy.

However, this doesn't have to mean that he's playing both sides. As a double-agent Snape could be feeding Voldemort information Dumbledore wants him to get: lies, half-truths, and intentional misinterpretations of correct facts about the Order. Actions are based on previous intelligence, and with intelligence as a "weapon" Dumbledore could, up to a certain degree, steer Voldemort's actions. (And Snape must still bring Voldemort SOMETHING back to prove his loyalty, unless he wants to be discovered as a turncoat and killed.)

There's nothing to say of course that Voldemort doesn't use the same tactics, but he must be thinking that Snape is still loyal to him - otherwise he wouldn't have let him have his trust back, paranoid as he is, but killed him instead. And if Snape is truly loyal to Dumbledore (and I believe he is), he'd at least try to find out how much truth is in the info Voldemort wants him to give Dumbledore. So Dumbledore would be at least at the same level as Voldemort, and hopefully a step ahead.

These following tidbits about Snape are from an interview JKR did in 1999, when only the first three books were out yet and she was writing GoF:

http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/1999/1099-connectiontransc.html
What about Snape?
Snape is a very sadistic teacher, loosely based on a teacher I myself had, I have to say. I think children are very aware and we are kidding ourselves if we don’t think that they are, that teachers do sometimes abuse their power and this particular teacher does abuse his power. He’s not a particularly pleasant person at all. However, everyone should keep their eye on Snape, I’ll just say that because there is more to him than meets the eye and you will find out part of what I am talking about if you read Book 4.

In book 4 we learned about his past as a DE (which may well have something ugly in store for us later), but he didn't display any treacherous tendencies towards Dumbledore - rather the contrary. Besides she started out calling him sadistic, power-abusing and all that, "however" everyone should keep their eye on him. Doesn't quite sound like he's going to turn REALLY evil, now does it? :D

One of our internet correspondents wondered if Snape is going to fall in love.
(JKR laughs) Who on earth would want Snape in love with them? That’s a very horrible idea.
There’s an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape
He, um, there’s so much I wish I could say to you, and I can’t because it would ruin. I promise you, whoever asked that question, can I just say to you that I’m slightly stunned that you’ve said that and you’ll find out why I’m so stunned if you read Book 7. That’s all I’m going to say.
This is encouraging.

Redemptive pattern. (As early as after book 3, I can see why she'd be surprised at the suggestion.) Seems like he IS going to be redeemed, hmm? :evil: Which would imply again that the big revelation - "keep your eyes on him" - will NOT be that he's going to betray DD and the Order. I only hope that she won't make him die to protect Harry, as a kind of "final step of redemption"... :no:

[young@heart]

I don't know whether or not Snape was the eavesdropper, and to be honest I don't care if it was him or Wormtail or Regulus or whoever.

I think that if it was Snape then it is important! I understand you saying you don't care but it might be the explanation as to why Dumbledore initially trusted Snape or the reason why Snape changed sides. The fact that a whole year elapses between the prophecy and Voldemort losing his power gives enough time before any trials were heard and means that when Dumbledore vouches for him it is because he wants to protect Snape or information Snape possesses as a result of his DE experience.


(And Snape must still bring Voldemort SOMETHING back to prove his loyalty, unless he wants to be discovered as a turncoat and killed.)...he must be thinking that Snape is still loyal to him


Yeah you are quite right! But what is it he's giving Voldemort? Perhaps it is as you suggested false info of the Order. But I suspect that it is merely the fact that Voldemort doesn't suspect that Snape has changed sides - as I said there is no reason for him to suspect this! Lucius still is involved with the Ministry etc and nobody ever proved his connection with Voldemort and he hasn't had to do anything to prove his loyalty to the Dark Lord!

Redemptive pattern. (As early as after book 3, I can see why she'd be surprised at the suggestion.) Seems like he IS going to be redeemed, hmm? :evil: Which would imply again that the big revelation - "keep your eyes on him" - will NOT be that he's going to betray DD and the Order. I only hope that she won't make him die to protect Harry, as a kind of "final step of redemption"... :no:

I didn't know she had spoken about this! That's very interesting. Maybe that is why he does work so hard to protect Harry because he is attempting to redeem himself and prove to Dumbledore that he his truly on the Order's side. I agree that I hope she won't make him die to protect Harry!

[Serpentine]

I think that if it was Snape then it is important! I understand you saying you don't care but it might be the explanation as to why Dumbledore initially trusted Snape or the reason why Snape changed sides. The fact that a whole year elapses between the prophecy and Voldemort losing his power gives enough time before any trials were heard and means that when Dumbledore vouches for him it is because he wants to protect Snape or information Snape possesses as a result of his DE experience.

True, a year would be an adequate amount of time for him to prove his loyalty to Dumbledore, and to do enough important spy work to be vouched for. Still, I don't see a necessity for Snape to have been the eavesdropper to bring that about.

Firstly, the barman in the Hog's Head (whom I suspect to be Aberforth, goats and all) would surely have told Dumbledore whom he had just kicked out for eavesdropping on Albus for Voldemort. If the same eavesdropper had then turned up on Albus' doorstep claiming to be turning sides, that would have (initially at least) decreased the trust Albus could have in him, instead of increasing it. As said before, Snape could have heard about the prophecy in a different way. E.g. he could have been present when it was revealed, or been ordered to find out who it could refer to.

Secondly, which part of the overheard prophecy would explain Dumbledore's trust in Snape, or give Snape a reason to not only turn sides but even turn spy on his former master? :huh: From the way I see it, he could well have known about the partly overheard prophecy and that there was someone to be born who could *possibly* vanquish Voldemort. (Note that the prophecy never said that that person WILL vanquish him, only that "one cannot live while the other lives" - so there was also the possibility of the "vanquishing" working the other way round.) It would have given him an additional reason to change sides to see that his master's power was not unchallenged, but I don't think that it alone would be sufficient. There must be more.

Yeah you are quite right! But what is it he's giving Voldemort? Perhaps it is as you suggested false info of the Order. But I suspect that it is merely the fact that Voldemort doesn't suspect that Snape has changed sides - as I said there is no reason for him to suspect this! Lucius still is involved with the Ministry etc and nobody ever proved his connection with Voldemort and he hasn't had to do anything to prove his loyalty to the Dark Lord!

Hmm... I have a hard time seeing Voldemort trust his DE minions for nothing but their sheer existence and the fancy tattoo on their arm. :shrug: With the way he scolded Lucius, Crabbe, Goyle, and Macnair at the rebirthing scene in GoF, he seems to be a rather exacting master with high expectations. True, we don't know what exactly Lucius and the others did or are now doing for him (apart from the battle at the Ministry of course), but that doesn't mean that they didn't do anything. The Azkaban DEs for instance probably didn't break out on their own, and the attack in the Ministry also had to be prepared somehow. Ever wondered why there was no guard around, nor any other security measures for that matter? I don't think that was pure coincidence. Maybe Lucius bought them, or Mulciber Imperio'd them to stay away, or whatever... the possibilities are endless. The DEs surely had to do something beforehand.

As for Snape... Imagine you are Voldemort. An evil and powerful wizard about to take over the wizarding world and cleanse it of muggles and muggleborns. There are only two obstacles on your way: Dumbledore ("the only one you ever feared"), and Harry (the child of the half-overheard prophecy, who besides has humiliated you to spend 13 years as "less than a ghost").

You have a circle of followers with different abilities and strategic locations. One of them is Snape, the Potions Master of Hogwarts. A guy who hasn't given you any reason so far to distrust him - else you would have killed him long ago -, and his strategic position is a brilliant one: as a Hogwarts teacher he's close to both Harry and Dumbledore. Dumbledore even seems to trust him and believes him to have spied on you, the old fool has even kept your minion out of Azkaban for it (remember, this is still from Voldemort's point of view). Snape is intelligent, he's gifted in Potions - and possibly you even put him there in the first place to spy on Dumbledore, with a little help from Lucius and the school board of governors.

You have been out of the game for some crazy reason, but now you're back to get the Second War going - and Snape is still there as the Potions Master of Hogwarts, to all appearances still a loyal DE. He's still on good terms with Lucius, openly favours the students in Slytherin where the dear offspring of your DE minions resides, and lives out his anger issues on the back of the students from the "good" houses. And as said before, the guy is in a brilliant strategic position near both of your worst enemies.

If you were Voldemort, would you just let this huge asset lie around unused, without expecting anything of him? :evil: I very much doubt it. Especially now that nearly a dozen of DEs, including Lucius, has landed themselves in Azkaban and made themselves useless. Voldemort will most certainly be expecting something of Snape, even more so after the DoM fiasco - either informations, or actions, or both. Snape is walking a fine line, and I'm more than curious how he will go about Voldemort's tasks without betraying his true loyalties to Dumbledore. :agree:

[Evelien19]

Welcome, and your English is great!

I think there is a reason that Dumbldore trusts Snape. I just have no clue as to why. I think it has something to do with the "great personal risk" Snape took to turn to the good side.

Yeah, I think that's where I am with it. I'm just wondering what the "great personal risk" could ever be to make Dumbledore hae faith in Snape. :huh:

[jasper]

As readers, I don't think we can trust Snape. JKR isn't letting us trust him, is she? He may or may not be trustworthy or worthy of Dumbledore's trust.

[hpfan47]

Since Dumbledore knows so much of whats going on in the world, I think that we can trust him to know whether or not he should trust Snape. Snape's story must have checked with Dumbledore and if we can't trust Dumbledore, who can we trust?

[i_wear_cotton]

i think snape can be trusted. i mean dumbledore trusts him and just cuz he gave harry a hard time and all, i dont think it has to do anything with him being worthy enoungh for trust but then again, dumbledore did make mistakes.....