Trelawney "Safe" at Hogwarts?

[purplehawk]

I'm trying to sort out whether there was more to Dumbledore's refusal to let Sibyll Trelawney be booted out of Hogwarts by Umbridge than meets the eye.

D'ya think he's keeping her there to prevent Voldemort from getting to her? Or that the last thing he would have wanted is to have her at large when Voldemort was searching so assiduously for the prophesy she made relative to the boy child born at the end of July?

And while I'm at it... anyone think we'll see Umbridge again? Or that Fudge will be forced to resign?

[MorningGlory]

I think you answered your own question, purplehawk. Why else would he keep her there? She's not a recluse.

As for Umbridge and Fudge: Umbridge is outta there from where I stand. Fudge won't be forced to resign but people are going to want some drastic changes made for safety purposes and he may pelt DD with more owls than ever!

But there are many threads going about them already. I don't think the mods are gonna let another one run.

[Lord Thingy]

I hadn't thought about Dumbledore keeping Trelawney at Hogwarts in order to keep her (and her prophecy) safe. I think that's a good idea, but one thing that doesn't seem to fit is the fact that in PoA, Trelawney didn't know what she prophesied to Harry about Wormtail rejoining Voldemort.

Unless somehow his skill at legilimency would allow Voldemort to access a memory of a prophesy that even Trelawney can't access herself, I don't know why Voldemort would want her in his clutches.

[purplehawk]

Think Bertha Jorkins and that so-called memory modification Crouch put on her... later broken by Voldemort.

[swtevejade]

good point... maybe dumbledore does want to keep trelawney safe away from voldemort. i wonder if voldemort even knows who was the one that made the prophecy?

[Dark Fallen Pride]

He probably didn't want Trelawney going out and bragging about things she predicted, and to keep an eye on her.

[Moonstone]

Trelawney wouldn't go about bragging about things she can't remember. But the person who overheard her first true prediction probably did identify her to Voldemort. Voldemort, if he knows Trelawney made the prediction, might not know that she does not remember it.

Trelawney is safe at Hogwarts, and that is part of the reason Dumbledore wishes to keep her there. She is also around just in case she makes another real prediction. Yes, they are few and far between, but Dumbledore isn't going to take any chances of letting any true prediction of Trelawney's getting to the wrong side. My money would be on a third true prediction before the book seven draws to a close.

[purplehawk]

I agree on another big prediction before the end.

Conversely, I'm pretty sure he's familiar enough with seers to know she won't remember uttering the prophesy. The statement "the means I used to break the memory charm put on her were powerful... her mind and body were both broken..." in GOF (relative to Jorkins) makes me not doubt for a minute he could get into Trelawney's mind and extract whatever he wanted.

[lollypopgurl]

Yeah, the only other way is to 'break' Dumbledore, and we know that not going to be happening.

[MalfoyIsMINE]

Back to the question on why dumbledore kept Trelawney at Hogwarts, well, I think it could be a mix of things...

1. He didnt want to gove Umbridge the satisfaction of kicking someone out.

2. He has known Trelawney for a long time and did it out of courtesy & respect.

3. (one i havent thought of til i read this thread) He wants Trelawney safe, I think that Sibyl will most definetly have another true prediction, and Dumbledore knows she can so he doesnt want he abilities put in the wrong hand, just like Moonstone said

[Animagi Girl]

I think that he kept her at Hogwarts because he was afraid that she could make another prediction, possibly about something very important, around someone untrustworthy, like in her first prediction.

[Dark Fallen Pride]

Originally posted by Moonstone (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=477881#post477881))
Trelawney wouldn't go about bragging about things she can't remember.


But Dumbledore probably told her what she predicted, and also she really didn't want to leave when she was about to be thrown out of the school, she had to have a really good reason to stay, like the prophecy.

[tree guardian]

Yep. That seems to be the case. Dumbledore was set against Trelawny leaving Hogwart, I think for the particular reason of her safety and the prophecy's safety. Voldemort must know who originally gave and heard the prophecy curteousy of the spy who was chucked out of the Hogshead. But does Trelawny have a clue? I'd say no. Sad woman she is. "Forget the cooksherry Trelawny, I know where there's a good stash of Fire Whiskey, step this way please..." :)

[Lord Thingy]

Good point, Animagi Girl... I think it has more to do with keeping Trelawney safe for possible future prophecies than protecting her past prophecies.

[Hammi]

I think thaat DD saw the possibility for another prediction and wanted to keep her close. And in OOTP im guessing he just kept her to keep her sanity, i mean she was practically insane when she was told to leave

[purplehawk]

Both of Trelawney's "real" predictions and/or prophesies were dead-on related to Voldemort. She foresaw Pettigrew's return to Voldemort in POA and we learned of her first prophesy in OOP, where she foresaw the birth of a child who could conquer the Dark Lord at the end of July sixteen years ago. It would seem she has a gift for homing in on critical events relative to old Voldy.

Would she prove to be an asset to Voldemort, should he get his hands on her? I don't believe there's any question she would be. Certainly she is the "weak link" insofar as the 16-year-old prophesy Voldemort wanted so badly. The record of the prophesy has been destroyed. As far as we know, the only people who know what she said in that prophesy are Dumbledore, Harry, and perhaps the keeper of the Department of Mysteries. I can't imagine the information is well-known.

Okay... Voldemort is obsessed with the prophesy. What wouldn't he do to gain that information? My guess is he'll find out before the end of the series. And Dolores Jane Umbridge almost handed Trelawney to him in OOP. There's a thread around here speculating as to whether or not Umbridge was evil and/or a Death Eater. Really makes you wonder!

How did she manage to send Dementors after Harry without knowledge of anyone else within the Ministry? Were the Dementors already under Voldemort's control that summer? She mentioned in OOP that Lucious Malfoy "always spoke highly" of Snape just before she put Snape on probation for "being deliberately unhelpful" in not providing her with the truth serum she wanted after catching Harry in her fire. She attempted to put the cruciatus curse on Harry - a very Death Eater-ish move if ever there was one.

Also, Sirius and Lupin mentioned the need for spies within the Ministry, noting that "you can bet Voldemort will have them... "

And during her persecution of Trelawney at Hogwarts, she continually demanded Trelawney "demonstrate her skill at the crystal ball, the tea leaves, and the rune stones in turn." Was it all just for meanness, or was someone else very interested in possibly hearing another of Sibyll's prophesies?

[Bit]

I agree she's there for protection, but I have a strong hunch that she's also to remain for selfish reasons. She's already predicted two prophecies relating to Voldemort, one to Harry... who knows if she'll make another one? I'm sure DD will want to hear it, rather than let it get into the wrong hands.

[purplehawk]

Oh, yeah. That's pretty much what I meant, but I wouldn't use the word "selfish." I think it's safe to assume Trelawney will remain under Dumbledore's protection - but for reasons of security. I think she was hired at Hogwarts after her first prophesy, after DD had already told her she wasn't suitable for the job, because she made that prophesy in his presense. Selfishness probably didn't come into play, or at least not as I undestand the word.

The snitch who overheard her make that prophesy would have known who she was, right? No way could Dumbledore have simply walked off and left her in her room at the Hogshead Inn. And, consider all Voldy's planning to listen to the prophesy... couldn't a contingency plan include a stab at kidnapping Trelawney with the help of an Umbridge coached by Lucious Malfoy?

[writer007]

I think she has a total of three real predictions, the third one might come out in the 6th book.

[purplehawk]

Why three?

[Hammi]

I agree with writer that there will be another prediction, but I don't think it will be until the 7th book. I just it will be too soon for another prophecy, i just think it will be too crowded (i cant think of another word) who really knows though besides jk

[klatter]

I have mentioned this theory in a few other threads. I am probly not the first to think of this:) I think the death eaters are going to come to hogwarts to try to kidnap traylawny to hear the prophecy.

How will the death eaters get into hogwarts?

Will Draco Malfoy let his father into school and take her OR

Will a secret death eater stationed at hogwarts try to get traylawny an betray Harry in the process?


I would love to hear everyones thoughts for and against this theory! :D

[Elizabeth B]

That's a distinct possibility especially since Trelawney does not seem to understand her own importance. When Umbridge sacks her, she is quite willing to leave Hogwarts not realizing that she would be in danger if she left. Dumbledore realizes that the Death Eaters might possibly try to use her as a weapon and won't let her leave the castle. They couldn't force The Prophecy out of her as prophecies seem to be one-time occurances that she, herself, does not recall. On the other hand, she could make another one that could be of benefit to the Death Eaters. Trelawney only makes predictions at dangerous times -before Harry's birth when the first war was at its height, when Voldemort was about to get a servant back- so it seems logical that she will begin making more frequent predictions. Dumbledore didn't hire her out of gratitude for making one significant prediction; he hired her because he knew she would be important and therefore, be in danger.

[Cat]

I love newcomers to the forum! It means great new theories!

I do really like this theory. I mean, it does make a lot of sense. People don't seem to know much about Seers, we saw Umbridge trying to poke a real prophecy out of Trelawney and we know you can't do it properly at will. It would also play into the fact that Trelawney thinks she's a skilled Seer, but she isn't aware when she makes genuine prophecies. Voldemort has many skills, but seeing the future isn't one of them. It makes perfect sense to suppose he might want a Seer in his presence.

If he wouldn't want her to predict the future for him, he might want her to reveal the FULL prophecy that he only half heard - but, of course, she probably doesn't know it.

Oh, yes, and I think this thread should go in the Hall of Prophecy.

[Liselle]

nice theory alright, I wonder does Trewlaney even know that she made the prophecy regarding Voldemorts downfall....I had had never put two and two together about her being a danger to herself either.....

Liselle

[HannahStarr]

I think the death eaters are going to come to hogwarts to try to kidnap traylawny to hear the prophecy.

How could the DEs hear the prophecy if Trelawney doesn't even know that she made one? It would seem totally pointless for the DEs to try and kidnap her.

BTW, there is a thread that touches on this: Trelawney "Safe" at Hogwarts? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=14633&highlight=trelawney)

[Tirwen Lupin]

Great threory! For some reason, I'd never really thought of Trelawney as a Death Eater target. But it seems so obvious now! :lol:
But it might not have occured to Trelawney herself. She thinks she's a seer, but for all the wrong reasons. When she makes a genuine prophecy, she doesn't know she's doing it, and in PoA she denied it afterwards. If Voldemort would somehow kidnap her and try to force her to make a Prophecy, she'd probably give her usual routine of "You'll break a pink teacup!" to keep him from finding anything out. :lol:
But, as Elizabeth B said, she seems to make Prophecies in dangerous times, a real one could possibly be given.

Dumbledore, though, will probably take as many precautions as possible to keep her out of the Death Eaters' paths.

[morgan le fay]

Trelawney only makes predictions at dangerous times -before Harry's birth when the first war was at its height, when Voldemort was about to get a servant back- so it seems logical that she will begin making more frequent predictions. Dumbledore didn't hire her out of gratitude for making one significant prediction; he hired her because he knew she would be important and therefore, be in danger.

i agree, she only makes prophecies in dangerous times, so.................... seems to me like were due for another prophecy soon. ;)

[Prof.Aze]

My thoughts... I am pretty sure not... They all think that Trelawny is a fraud and can't do anything than predict Harry's death.. and stuff. So i don't think they would... If ever they intend to kidnap someone then i guess they will get someone who are real seers...

[MaraudersGirl]

Interesting idea. It seems entirely logical for the Death Eaters to try and get to Trelawny. Maybe it couldn't be that hard. After all she never leaves the tower and a DE could just slip in the window (entirely crazy and not likely to happen I know). But I dont think that the DE will ever manage to attack Hogwarts.

[*Maven*]

I posted something before about getting into Hogwarts to attack Harry or DD. I think this post is relevent here so I will post it again.

Well I think Harry will not be foolish to leave Hogwarts this year. So if that is right the main plot will be at Hogwarts. Therefore I am very curious how anyone could attack someone else at Hogwarts. I have several theorys:

1) Obviously the same way as Barty Jr. did. Polyjuice potion and just walk right on in. You would most likely need to transform into someone like Percy or Fudge to get into Hogwarts without suspicion.

2) A little like the above way above. Just use the imperious curse on someone who would be allowed in Hogwarts. This was done to Krum in the maze.

3) You can't apparate but apparently you can use a port key to get in. Most likely only into Dumbledore's office.

4) Flew powder into certain fires. This will most likely be monitered closely just like book 5.

5) Secret passages. There is one that worries me. Its the one that I think is suppose to be blocked off but no one knows for sure. This could be trouble.

6) I don't know how Karkorov got in but I guess there is a way to get into the lake or something.

7) Have someone open the gate... like Draco.

Once inside you could do a few things to attack someone or capture.

1) Strait up attack.

2) I would use poision (or a potion) and have the House elves put it in someones drink or food.

There are Gargoyles and winged boars on the outside of the castle. It would be best to go undetected. A combination of the above would probably be the best way.

[purplehawk]

I guess this proves what goes around comes around, at least on these forums! No one seemed much interested when I first brought up the question in July. Now there are more posts today than there were for the three or four days it was up before.

I'm glad to see some discussion on it. I read that "sacking scene" in OotP, particularly Trelawney's offer to leave the school and Dumbledore's insistence that she stay, as critically important.

I don't think it matters much that Sybill doesn't recall her real prophecies after they are given. Once she utters a prophecy, her brain will retain a subconscious memory of it - at least I think it will. If that is true, Voldemort has the power to break into her subconscious mind just as he did with Bertha Jorkins. Remember the memory charm Crouch put on her? The one that was so powerful it damanged her memory? Whatever the truth of that, Voldemort did extract the information he wanted. I think Sybill is at great risk, particularly after his failure to get his hands on the record of the prophecy kept by the Ministry.

[Brachah]

I guess this proves what goes around comes around, at least on these forums! No one seemed much interested when I first brought up the question in July. Now there are more posts today than there were for the three or four days it was up before.
I'll bring it up again!
Yeah, I found that suspicious, too. I found it a clever topic and don't understand why no one is talking about it!

[purplehawk]

Actually, Brachah, it has been talked about spradically in the Layers thread in History of Magic - largely because I post a lot there. :p Opinion seems split on whether of not Trelawney has any beneath-the-consciousness memory of the prophecy. I maintain the mind will record anything she has ever spoken, or dreamed about, whether or not it is a conscious memory of something she might have been doing at any given time. Moreover, I believe Voldemort has the power to break into her mind, as he broke through Crouch's "too powerful memory charm" on Bertha Jorkins.

This could be critical if Voldemort is continuing to obsess about the prophecy in Book Six. Luring her away from Hogwarts might be a bit easier than getting the actual prophecy from Harry or Dumbledore.

[sirius_gerl]

agreed.

i think Trelawney is in some sort of danger. Voldemort could come and torture her into finding out what the prophecy said.

[Magi]

Not too long ago, I suggested that Dumbledore was keeping Trelawney at Hogwarts because of the prophecy. Good to see that this issue has been brought up in its own thread.

So obviously, I agree with the thread starter. But I think it's more of a precaution than a response to an actual threat. The big question is: did the eavesdropper know the identity of the prophetess? That would determine just how much danger Trelawney might be in.

[purplehawk]

Hi Magi. You know this thread is nearly a year old. It was the first and only thread I originated since registering at CoS. I've posted about it several different threads since then, trying to generate some discussion about it.

I'm totally guessing when I say this, but I think the spy was tailing Dumbledore much the same as members of the Order are now tailing known Voldemort death eaters and other supporters. We know Dumbledore met with Sybill "in a room above the bar at the Hog's Head Inn" and that the inn "is a place where it is never safe to assume you are not being overheard."

It doesn't seem likely the spy was someone employed at Hogwarts, particularly as we know he or she was caught and thrown from the building. Thus, the spy had to have encountered Dumbledore in the Hog's Head, or known he would be there by some other channel of information. It seems it would be a small matter to discover who had checked into the inn - again, the spy knew which room Dumbledore was visiting.

So, yes, I think Voldemort knows who gave the prophecy. I also believe Dumbledore hired Sybill on the spot, against his disinclination to allow Divination to continue to be taught at the school, because he knew or guessed word of the prophecy would swiftly get back to Voldemort.

Remember his reaction when Umbridge sacked Sybill? Remember Sybill volunteering to leave at one point? Dumbledore said "No!" and his tone was described as "sharp." I took that to mean he was determined she wasn't leaving the castle. I wonder, too, how much whispering Lucius Malfoy did to draw Umbridge's attention to Trelawney...

[ravenclaw02]

Great thread! I agree with Magi, I don't think that a direct threat has been made on her; since no one knew about the prohecy, it was more of a precaution. Now, however, that the initials on the prophecy have been seen, both Dumbledore and Trelawney might be in danger. I'm sure that Dumbledore kept her around not only out of sympathy, but also as a precaution. Also, dont forget, Trelawney made another prediction in PoA ("It will happen tonight ..."). It's probably advantageous to keep her around - and keep her monitored - in case she makes another prophecy. Ever notice how all of Trelawney's real prophecies (that we know of) relate to Voldemort? I wonder if there's some kind of connection? Do you think that other Seers make predictions specific to one person, or do they make more general predictions? Kind of off-topic, I know, and I'm sorry, but this thread has really made me think!

[Magi]

I agree with you Purplehawk, and your suggestion that the spy knew who DD was meeting makes sense.


PS: I wasn't trying to upstage you in any way with my post. Merely pointing out the coincidence. I hadn't seen this thread before, even though I've been a member for nearly two years, so I assumed it was a new thread.

[purplehawk]

Not a problem, Magi. I end up posting in what I first supposed were new threads all the time; then I find out they're a couple of years old. I was disappointed when I first started this thread, as no one seemed intereseted, and decided to post from then on rather than originate ideas.

I half think there may well be a third prophecy - perhaps already given and maybe another of Sybill's - and the contents are related to how Voldemort and/or Tom Riddle will end. If this theory pans out, it could explain why he is so afraid of death and has fought so hard to keep it at bay. It certainly wouldn't be the first time prophecies have been made about two combatants destined to clash head-on.

[silver ink pot]

I'm obsessed with Trelawney. I think she has been kept at Hogwarts because she needs protection. And the attention JKR draws to Trelawney's eyes is important. There is definitely something amiss with her eyes. In OotP, there is that scene in which Harry goes to class early because Hermione and Ron are fighting. He sits under the tower for a while, and then goes up the ladder. When he enters, Trelawney is putting books on desks, but she doesn't seem to know he's there. Why not? Is Harry invisible all of a sudden? I don't think so - but maybe she really just can't see him well?


And Sybill just needs protection. Look at the way Umbridge treated her! And Sybill didn't really fight back at all - why? Because maybe she isn't very good with magic. Maybe being a seer is her only talent as a witch?

Does anyone think it is strange that she never does a "reparo" spell, or hardly any spells at all? She tells Neville not to break certain teacups because they are her favorites (he does anyway) but, unlike almost every other witch or wizard we've seen, she doesn't repair the damage immediately. She just looks at the pieces on the floor. Compare that to when Harry is in Snape's Dungeon and he is pushed backward into the liquid-filled jar and breaks it. Snape immediately says, "Reparo." Now, I think that is a clue. Of course, someone will say that a teacup doesn't matter, but a speciman in a laboratory does matter. At any rate, Sybill may be alot like Neville, I think - brave, but not very good with magic.

Whatever the case, she sure didn't fight back very well against Umbridge. She is really vulnerable, and I think all her drinking and crying is out of fear. Like Harry and also Sirius, she is "marked" and she is trapped. She knows she is in trouble with the DEs. If her tower at Hogwarts is somehow destroyed or she is too much at risk, I could see her being taken to Grimmauld Place.

Also, I constantly wonder about Trelawney's eyes and that "sickly-sweet" odor in her room. What is that? Something is simmering in her kettle over a low fire. Well, I have a theory about that. I was thinking about magical protection and maybe part of that would be to put a magical substance into the very air around her so that DEs wouldn't be able to touch her. One thing that came to mind was frankincense.

Frankincense has a sickly sweet smell, and also has some magical qualities, according to the Egyptians. Many people in the Middle East still burn in on their fires.

http://members.aol.com/parijata/frankincense.html
The smoke from the burning gum is considered to have powerful curative and protective properties. Sick humans or domesticated animals are customarily fumigated with incense. Gum is a common ingredient in eye washes to treat a soreness, infection, irritation.

http://www.scents-of-earth.com/frankincense1.html
Frankincense resin is distilled by steam or CO2 to extract its precious essential oil, which is used extensively in modern aromatherapy. This oil is rejuvenating to the skin, treating acne, bacterial and fungal infections, and to treat wounds and scars. Thus, it is used in cosmetics, soaps, and perfumes. The University of Munich found the anti-inflammatory properties of frankincense very effective as a treatment for joint pain and arthritis.

The famous eleventh-century Arabian physician, Avicenna, recommended its cooling effects as a remedy for infections and illnesses that increase the body’s temperature. Greek and Roman physicians used Frankincense in the treatment of a great variety of diseases. Frankincense remedies appear in the Syriac Book of Medicine, ancient Muslim texts, and in Ayurvedic and Chinese medical writings.

Frankincense is also a natural insecticide and was used in ancient Egypt to fumigate wheat silos and repel wheat moths. In Arabia, the smoke of burning frankincense resin is used to repel mosquitoes and sand flies. Researchers have found that burning frankincense indoors improves the acoustic properties of the room. Dioscorides described how the bark of the tree was put into water to attract fish into nets and traps. In ancient Egypt the resin was a key ingredient for embalming their dead.

[padfootgrim]

i agree.. i think dumbledore is protecting trelawney to keep voldemort from torturing her and getting the prophecy

but i dont understand.. all that voldemort is going to find out is that harry has the one power that the dark lord has not.... how is that going to help voldemort?

[FirefightingMuggle]

Just wondering something...
If the Department of Mysteries has a record of all the prophecies, I wonder if Voldemort would go looking for Trewlaney's second prophecy, that is if he ever finds out about it. I mean, granted, it was about his return, but do ya think he'd ever be curious?
Would it be him or Wormtail who would be able to lift it?

I do think that Trewlaney is in danger if she leaves Hogwarts. IF a thrid prophecy is on it's way, the last people that I would want to be hearing it is Voldey and the DEs. She is much better off at Hogwarts, where Dumbledore can keep an eye on her.

[Alastor D]

He would also find out that "either must die at the hand of the other..." But that isn't the point. He doesn't know what he would find out. He thinks that he would find out how to get rid of the obnoxious brat.

Purplehawk may have a point in that perhaps Malfoy is somehow behind the sacking of Trelawney. Umbridge didn't seem to care much about quality of teaching. She sacked Hagrid because she hates all kinds of half breeds. And perhaps also because his loyalty to Dumbledore is well known. But Trelawney seems too harmless to bother with. So it's perhaps possible that Malfoy filled Fudge up with rubbish about her.

[Magi]

but i dont understand.. all that voldemort is going to find out is that harry has the one power that the dark lord has not.... how is that going to help voldemort?Knowledge is power. :)

Surely Voldemort knows what power he's missing. If he finds out Harry has this power, he'll try to find a work-around. Perhaps even be able to deduce chinks in Harry's armour.

But as long as Voldemort is kept in the dark, he has no way to prepare.

[purplehawk]

"... Either must die at the hand of the other, for neither can live while the other survives... "

Voldemort fears Dumbledore most right now. He is still discounting Harry as his greatest foe. Very foolish of him, but that's how it is. If he heard the quoted line of the prophecy, he would know Dumbledore can't destroy him and the focus of his malice would surely change. Harry's situation would become more dicey than ever with the threat of Dumbledore removed from the equation. As Magi said, knowledge is power.

The Hall of Prophecy was pretty much destroyed in OotP. If the second prophecy was ever placed there, it's probably gone. Personally, I don't think it was. Certainly Harry never recalled the exact wording for anyone.

[GryffindorGr]

I'm obsessed with Trelawney. I think she has been kept at Hogwarts because she needs protection. And the attention JKR draws to Trelawney's eyes is important. There is definitely something amiss with her eyes. In OotP, there is that scene in which Harry goes to class early because Hermione and Ron are fighting. He sits under the tower for a while, and then goes up the ladder. When he enters, Trelawney is putting books on desks, but she doesn't seem to know he's there. Why not? Is Harry invisible all of a sudden? I don't think so - but maybe she really just can't see him well?

I think so too! And in OotP, Dumbledore makes sure she is kept there even after Umbridge tries to get her kicked out. Eyes seem to be used a lot in descriptors for JKR; Hermione's brown eyes, constantly mentioned, Harry's green eyes of course, and Dumbledore's bright blue eyes twinkling, Draco's grey eyes, (although may mean ambiguity--since grey eyes really don't exist), etc. But with Trelaweney, we get her glasses, like Harry. I wonder what she'd be like without them? Vulnerable like Harry?


Frankincense is also a natural insecticide and was used in ancient Egypt to fumigate wheat silos and repel wheat moths. In Arabia, the smoke of burning frankincense resin is used to repel mosquitoes and sand flies. Researchers have found that burning frankincense indoors improves the acoustic properties of the room. Dioscorides described how the bark of the tree was put into water to attract fish into nets and traps. In ancient Egypt the resin was a key ingredient for embalming their dead.
Nice analysis on Frankincense. Since it was also used as a gift by the three wise kings for the birth of Christ scene.

by Magi
Knowledge is power.

Surely Voldemort knows what power he's missing. If he finds out Harry has this power, he'll try to find a work-around. Perhaps even be able to deduce chinks in Harry's armour.

But as long as Voldemort is kept in the dark, he has no way to prepare.
I think Voldie knows a lot though. Even in PS/SS, Voldie told Quirrell how Harry would react, etc. and in OotP, Bella and Lucius mentions how Voldie knows all. He probably knows Harry has this power but cannot touch him because of all the reasons mentioned before. It's trying to break down those barriers of protection that will ultimately be Harry's undoing and Voldemorts triumph.

[ravenclaw02]

And Sybill just needs protection. Look at the way Umbridge treated her! And Sybill didn't really fight back at all - why? Because maybe she isn't very good with magic. Maybe being a seer is her only talent as a witch?

Does anyone think it is strange that she never does a "reparo" spell, or hardly any spells at all? She tells Neville not to break certain teacups because they are her favorites (he does anyway) but, unlike almost every other witch or wizard we've seen, she doesn't repair the damage immediately. She just looks at the pieces on the floor. Compare that to when Harry is in Snape's Dungeon and he is pushed backward into the liquid-filled jar and breaks it. Snape immediately says, "Reparo." Now, I think that is a clue. Of course, someone will say that a teacup doesn't matter, but a speciman in a laboratory does matter. At any rate, Sybill may be alot like Neville, I think - brave, but not very good with magic.

Interesting analysis, silver ink pot! I thought your whole post was great, but this bit really stood out to me. Has anyone ever seen Trelawney do magic? I'm re-reading OOTP at the moment, and I can't remember any instance where we actually see her do a spell. Could this be a clue about Trelawney? Do you even need to be a witch to be a seer? I think it's pretty obvious that Dumbledore is protecting her, but I wonder about her magical abilities ...

[Lanc]

I definitely think Dumbledore's protecting Trelawney by keeping her at Hogwarts. She's the only teacher with the exception of Hagrid that we know actually lives at Hogwarts. It is her home, not just the place where she works. I would say most of the other teachers don't live at Hogwarts except in term time. Whether Voldemort actually could get the full prophecy from her memory I'm not certain (and I'm not sure Dumbledore or Voldemort are either), since she certainly has no conscious memory of her prophecies, but I am certain that so long as Dumbledore doesn't want Voldemort to know the whole prophecy, he can't take the chance that he could. That, I think, is the only real reason that he allows Divination to be taught, since with the exception of Trelawney's true prophecies I think he shares McGonagall's assesment of the subject's worth.

As for how capable Trelawney is, I doubt she's very capable. She rarely uses magic so far as I can remember, and if she was capable I doubt she would have applied for the job. She must know that most of her predictions are worthless (though I think she tries to make herself believe otherwise), and that most of the staff (most noticeably McGonagall) are less than fond of her. If she had much in the way of magical skill I think she would be doing almost anything rather than what she is doing.

[purplehawk]

Has anyone ever seen Trelawney do magic? I'm re-reading OOTP at the moment, and I can't remember any instance where we actually see her do a spell.

I can remember only one occasion when she did indeed use magic. It was in GoF in the chapter called "The Dream." She waved her wand and the lamps in her room went out. You can read it on page 575, American Edition.

[Frazil]

I think that Trelawny is being kept at Hogwarts in case she makes another prophecy - possibly also for security, but we don't know for sure that she remembers the prophecy. Personally, I doubt she has to worry about Voldemort abducting her - if anyone gives the prophecy away it'll almost certainly be Harry. He's bound to tell Neville the prophecy at some point, and he'll either be overheard or will find out that he'd really told a polyjuiced Draco or something like that. :)

[FlyingPhoenix]

Personally I think Trelawney might be a squib. Not possible? Nah, I say it is just look what Mrs Figg says and what Fudge dos in COS. They can do magic but its so little that its pretty useless. If Trelawney just get all few years a real vision being a squib is fairily able to do that.

'Of course I know Dumbledore, who doesn't know Dumbledore? But come on — I'll be no help if they come back, I've never so much as Transfigured a teabag.'

But something different what I just read yesterday in OotP the Bar-man of Hog's Head was to Harry oddly familiar.

The barman sidled towards them out of a back room. He was a grumpy-looking old man with a great deal of long grey hair and beard. He was tall and thin and looked vaguely familiar to Harry.

I guess Harry might have seen this guy on that photo by Mad Eye Moody:

Caradoc Dearborn, vanished six months after this, we never found his body .

and

That's Dumbledore's brother Aberforth, only time I ever met him, strange bloke

So there are two possible's it could be Dumbledore's brother something I doubt but from that beard he could it be.
No, I rather go for Caradoc Dearborn because someone must have overheard the prophecy and gone straight to Voldemort.

[purplehawk]

Good catch, FP! Caradoc Dearborn gone missing, eh? Aha!

[FlyingPhoenix]

'Voldemort tried to kill you when you were a child because of a prophecy made shortly before your birth

This might be interesting if we assume that photo by Mad Eye Moody was older as that. Let say 8 months or 9 months. But surely it was since Lily didn't look at all pregnant and after Harry was born they did start to hide.

Now the most interesting part is how Wormtail plays in this. Because in PoA its said he spied one year before they did hide or was it one year before Harry was born? I'm not sure about this one. But anyway if Dearborn vanished before Wormtail was Voldemorts spy, you should start to wonder.
To wonder what exactly happened. Dearborn must have known Wormtail is close to the Potters since he was too by the Order. But he probably knew too wormtail was the weakest of James's friends.

Only an insider might have known exactly who of them did defead Voldemort three times and which kind of surrounding they had. But it can't be only Wormtail but someone more smart as that, someone who was probably close to the Longbottom's, too.

Since I do not believe it was just so by the way that the Lestrange's and Crouch jr did tortur the Longbottom's. Mind you there is probably more to this story as we now know since its bit far fretched to think that the Longbottom's knew where Voldemort was gone. I found that always bit strange.

To bring sense in this post I do think Dearborn did run over to Voldemort because there was hardly any hope I suppose and after he heard a bit from that prophecy he went to Voldemort and he assumed it will be the Potter's or the Longbottom's and there it started to find a spy who was close enough.

[Frazil]

Only an insider might have known exactly who of them did defead Voldemort three times and which kind of surrounding they had. But it can't be only Wormtail but someone more smart as that, someone who was probably close to the Longbottom's, too.

Since I do not believe it was just so by the way that the Lestrange's and Crouch jr did tortur the Longbottom's. Mind you there is probably more to this story as we now know since its bit far fretched to think that the Longbottom's knew where Voldemort was gone. I found that always bit strange.

Yeah that sounds intriguing. :) I hadn't thought about it before, but as the Potters had a Secret-Keeper, it would be likely that the Longbottoms also had one - and one just as ineffective as Peter, it would seem.... :/

(What am I talking about - the Longbottoms were only attacked after Voldemort was defeated, so they wouldn't have thought they'd had any need for a Secret-Keeper. :blush: )

[purplehawk]

I'm guessing the Longbottoms would have felt safe coming out of hiding by that time. Moody's description of Dearborn doesn't actually say he was killed; Moody seems to be assuming he was killed because they never saw him again... or is he?

[Magi]

So there are two possible's it could be Dumbledore's brother something I doubt but from that beard he could it be.
No, I rather go for Caradoc Dearborn because someone must have overheard the prophecy and gone straight to Voldemort.So... Caradoc Dearborn, an employee or owner of Hog's Head was thrown out of the bar he runs/owns? Remember the eavesdropper was promptly thrown out when he was caught.

[purplehawk]

I think Aberforth Dumbledore owns the Hog's Head. Dearborn was there in some other capacity, perhaps? I don't believe Dearborn was the spy who heard the prophecy, if only because he was caught. Moody would surely have known he was a spy and said so when showing the picture to Harry.

[FirefightingMuggle]

The barman sidled towards them out of a back room. He was a grumpy-looking old man with a great deal of long grey hair and beard. He was tall and thin and looked vaguely familiar to Harry.

I guess Harry might have seen this guy on that photo by Mad Eye Moody:

Caradoc Dearborn, vanished six months after this, we never found his body .

and

That's Dumbledore's brother Aberforth, only time I ever met him, strange bloke

So there are two possible's it could be Dumbledore's brother something I doubt but from that beard he could it be.
No, I rather go for Caradoc Dearborn because someone must have overheard the prophecy and gone straight to Voldemort.

I love this theory! It would make perfect sense
1) Voldemort would know who made the prophecy, because Dearborn told him, there by putting Trelawney in danger.
2) Dearborn would know who in the Original OotP had thrice defied the Dark Lord.
3) Harry would have only vaguely recognized Dearborn because he only saw Moody's photo once.
4) Dumbledore would know that Trelawney is in danger and is keeping her at Hogwarts so that Voldemort doesn't find a way to extract the original prophecy from her, or so she doen't make a new prophecy in front of him.
5) Dearborn found a way to somewhat disguise himself, just enough, so that he wouldn't be recognized right away by OotP members or Death Eaters.

It would make sense for JKR to throw a random name in there that we haven't heard before, and surround it with mystery, only to have that person show up again in an important way. If Dearborn was the person who heard the prophecy, and he is in league with Voldey, and he knows that Trelawney is the one who made the Prophecy, then she is in definate danger.

[purplehawk]

The hole in all this is that the Hog's Head is frequented by people who would, or should, have known Dearborn well enough to recognize him at some point. Mundungus Fletcher seems to have frequented the bar off and on since he was banned twenty years before. Hagrid was in and out on a regular basis.

I'm not discounting the fact Dearborn may well have been the spy who overheard the prophecy, or a part of it, before being thrown off the premises. I actually believe he probably was. I just don't believe the barman and/or owner of the Hog's Head is anyone other than Aberforth Dumbledore, who serves at his brother's eyes and ears in Hogsmeade.

Aberforth has been mantioned just twice in the series - once by Dumbledore himself, when telling the story of his brother being charged with inappropriate charms on a goat, and once by Moody. Moody also pointed him out to Harry that night, so I'm guessing that's why Harry thought he looked familiar.

[Nicole]

Trelawny is probably as safe as anyone else at Hogwarts right now. Heaven help her if she makes a trip to the Hogs Head and trips someone to the fact that the barman may also have heard the prophecy. We know an "eavesdropper was detected...and thrown from the building." Was the eavesdropper the barman (now almost positively identified as Aberforth Dumbledore, member of the original Order of the Phoenix), or someone else? (Or maybe this was before Aberforth became the barman?).
Hogwarts best be well protected from aerial invasion (owls and thestrals seem able to fly around there) as Trelawney makes her home in a tower. An attempt to nab her does not have to come through the entrance hall!
If there is an attack on Hogwarts, though, I think the focus will be Harry not Trelawney.

[C8H10N4O2]

I'm trying to sort out whether there was more to Dumbledore's refusal to let Sibyll Trelawney be booted out of Hogwarts by Umbridge than meets the eye.

D'ya think he's keeping her there to prevent Voldemort from getting to her? Or that the last thing he would have wanted is to have her at large when Voldemort was searching so assiduously for the prophesy she made relative to the boy child born at the end of July?
I think that is exactly why, and also why he was so quick to replace her -- to let her keep her rooms. Even if she cannot remember her prophecies, Voldemort doesn't know that.

And while I'm at it... anyone think we'll see Umbridge again? Or that Fudge will be forced to resign?
Fudge will be forced to leave. You can see this on the advertisements on the Romors section of JKR's website.

I think that Trelawny is being kept at Hogwarts in case she makes another prophecy
A good point, as all her predictions have involved Voldemort.

[snakeshark]

I'm trying to sort out whether there was more to Dumbledore's refusal to let Sibyll Trelawney be booted out of Hogwarts by Umbridge than meets the eye.

D'ya think he's keeping her there to prevent Voldemort from getting to her? Or that the last thing he would have wanted is to have her at large when Voldemort was searching so assiduously for the prophesy she made relative to the boy child born at the end of July?

And while I'm at it... anyone think we'll see Umbridge again? Or that Fudge will be forced to resign?
Jo said there will be a new Minister of Magic. Whether Fudge resigns or is killed, we do not know yet. We will see Umbridge again...but to what extent, I cannot say.

Think of who can recall the prophecy...it would be bad to have Trelawney "out and about" with such knowledge locked away somewhere in her head. But I think there are other reasons Dumbles is keeping her around. ;)

[no1 potter fan]

That could be possible but I have got a few resons against it: Voldemort doesn't know who made the prophecy because there a a fair few seers in the magical world so Dumbledore either kept her to protect her from voldemort if he does take a wild guess she would be safe at Hogwarts with Dumbledore around, he also could have done it just to get back at Umbridge or maybe Dumbledore got close friends and kept her at Hogwarts by loyalty.

Yes I think (and hope) that we have seen the last of Umbridge and Fudge because JKR said that Fudge lost his job In HBP and I think the the students have scared umbridge off for good.

[atherella]

That could be possible but I have got a few resons against it: Voldemort doesn't know who made the prophecy because there a a fair few seers in the magical world so Dumbledore either kept her to protect her from voldemort if he does take a wild guess she would be safe at Hogwarts with Dumbledore around, he also could have done it just to get back at Umbridge or maybe Dumbledore got close friends and kept her at Hogwarts by loyalty.

I'm not sure it's safe to say that LV didn't know who made the prophesy. Afterall, someone, whoever it may be, did overhear part of the prophesy and tell LV about what was heard. He doesn't know the entire prophesy, but he does know part of it, from ST being overheard. Also, there is a record of the prophesy being made by Sybill to DD. I do realize that no one other than the ones involved are able to remove the prophesy from the shelf it was on, but that doesn't mean that LV didn't know who delivered it.

I always figured that DD didn't want Prof. Trelawney to leave Hogwarts for a combination of reasons.

1. If LV was able to break the memory charm that was on Bertha, and we have to figure since it was a ministry implaced charm, it should be a very powerful one. Actually, it was said that the charm was very powerful, and once broken, left Bertha useless. So, assuming that Prof. Trelawney didn't remember the contents of the prophesy she delivered, it isn't that far out to think that it could somehow be extracted from her subconscious memory. So, by keeping her at Hogwarts, DD is keeping LV from attempting to figure out the contents of the prophesy from the 'seer' herself.

and
2. As we saw the night that Wormtail went back to LV, Prof. Trelawney has made another prophesy, and you never know when she might just come up with new ones. It is better to have her safely tucked away at Hogwarts, under DD's eye where he can keep an eye on her, and know immediately if she delivers any more prophesies.

[snakeshark]

That could be possible but I have got a few resons against it: Voldemort doesn't know who made the prophecy because there a a fair few seers in the magical world so Dumbledore either kept her to protect her from voldemort if he does take a wild guess she would be safe at Hogwarts with Dumbledore around, he also could have done it just to get back at Umbridge or maybe Dumbledore got close friends and kept her at Hogwarts by loyalty.

Yes I think (and hope) that we have seen the last of Umbridge and Fudge because JKR said that Fudge lost his job In HBP and I think the the students have scared umbridge off for good.
You will see them both again, if but briefly mentioned. Their story is not complete...and I daresay Umbridge's has quite a ways to go before it reaches the end. ;)

[MMELevrier]

Perhaps Sybill Trelawney doesn't do much magic because most of the "essence" of her ability is so consciously directed toward seeing, when, in reality, her ability to "see" is completely unconscious.

Like the Delphic Oracle she's named for, she is most likely simply a voice for whatever force causes the prophesies to emerge, like a stereo speaker. The speaker doesn't make the music, only makes it audible.

And of course, it makes perfect sense for Sybill to remain at Hogwarts, where she is safe. Aside from the fact that I don't believe she is capable of defending herself, there is the chance that she will pass something useful to the good guys.

[Tane]

I like this thread, good post I think there might be two reasons for Dumbledore keeping Trelawney and in a way both have already been covered:


That Trelawney knows the whole prophecy and Voldemort has the means to extract it from her, Dumbledore cares about Trelawney too much to see any harm come her way over a prophecy.
That the original prophecy has always sounded incomplete to me and that there may be a lot more to come along but I think that what ever Trelawney prophecies will be for Harry's ears.

On another note, should there be a prophecy stating H.P and S.T regarding P. P and V locked away in the department of mysteries along with the other prophecy now?

I wonder what Trelawney will tell use all in the end, a way of defeating Voldemort or Harry perhaps if that was the case then Dumbledore would never let Trelawney fall into the Dark Lords hands.

[Trisha]

Are there any portraits in Sybill's tower? Otherwise, how would Dumbledore know if she had gone into a trance?
She could be keeling over every few minutes when no one is looking... muttering in her sleep... babbling in the bathtub... prognosticating over tea and crumpets....

And I have to say it's a sad, sad life if she hasn't had a real vacation from school in 16 years.

[RemusLupinFan]

I agree that Trelawney is probably safest at Hogwarts, whether or not there has ever been any specific threat to her person. I think it's a good bet Voldemort does indeed know that it was she who made the prophecy concerning himself and Harry. I also agree that if Voldemort had gotten his hands on her, she would undoubtedly be useful to him. But Dumbledore's reasons for keeping Trelawney at Hogwarts were probably precautionary- I'm not sure Voldemort was specifically after her.

It's also likely that Dumbledore wanted Trelawney to stay just in case she made another prediction, like several people mentioned. Despite the fact that she generally isn't a very good Seer, Dumbledore recognizes the potential in her to make another valuable prediction. This is the very reason that Dumbledore hired her against his better judgment in the first place. I definitely believe that Trelawney will make another prediction by the end of the series, one that will probably concern Harry.

Lastly, I believe several Dumbledore's reasons for insisting that Trelawney was to stay at Hogwarts were personal. Before being sacked, Trelawney was showing signs of destructive behavior and overall sadness. She was drinking cooking sherry, appeared very disheveled, and seemed to cry a lot. Therefore, I believe Dumbledore made it clear Trelawney would stay out of concern for her well-being. The scene where she was sacked was very humiliating and demeaning for Trelawney; she was obviously distraught. To have to leave Hogwarts, which she considered her home, might have been too much for her. Also, I wonder if she really had anywhere else to stay. In OotP, Dumbledore tells Harry she chose the Hog's Head Bar for the interview for it's cheepness, possibly suggesting that she wasn't very well-to-do. With that in mind, I think some of the reasoning behind Dumbledore's insistance that Trelawney stay was to make sure she would be alright and would have a place to stay.