Ludo Bagman

[phoenixsong]

Okay, after GoF I bought the line that Ludo Bagman was just a bit of an idiot, and that his connection with LV was only accidental, that he had been tricked by Augustus Rookwood. But after reading OotP, and seeing the mention of Bagman at least twice (once when Bill says that the head goblin is still mad that the ministry isn't punishing Bagman, and again during Harry's hearing, when Fudge describes long odds as (paraphrased) "Even Bagman wouldn't bet on that one"), I wonder if we mightn't see him again, and if so, in what connection? Does Rita Skeeter know more about him then the Rookwood incident (I know things about Ludo Bagman that would make your hair curl...not that it needs it)? And Winky (Ludo Bagman is a bad, bad wizard...)?

[ssssalizar]

I think Winky was just repeating what Crouch might of said to her. It is mentioned in GoF that Crouch would have been really angry after Bagman's hearing, and might have slandered him in front of Winky, perhaps exaggerating things in his anger. This would have lead Winky to believe he is a bad wizard.
As to Rita Skeeter, despite the conclusion the trio came to that the horrible things she knew about Bagman was that he slip info to Voldys supporters- I would think that she knows more about Bagman than this little slip up- that wouldn't exactly make anyone's hair curl. Maybe she did find out some real bad stuff about him, but somehow he found out that she was an animagus and a deal was made ('I don't tell- you don't tell') Why else wouldn't Rita tell Hermoine these things that day- Rita was never the one to hold back information on someone? I mean, if she had reported all these horrible things about Bagman, it would be common knowledge wouldn't it? With the statement 'I know things about Ludo Bagman...' I get the impression that she knows things about him that no one else does.
But will we see him in future books? I don't know. The references to him in OotP could simply be a way to show whats happened to him- or it could be a way to keep him in our minds for future books. I am undecided.

[phoenixsong]

Originally posted by ssssalizar (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=477951#post477951))
As to Rita Skeeter, despite the conclusion the trio came to that the horrible things she knew about Bagman was that he slip info to Voldys supporters- I would think that she knows more about Bagman than this little slip up- that wouldn't exactly make anyone's hair curl. Maybe she did find out some real bad stuff about him, but somehow he found out that she was an animagus and a deal was made ('I don't tell- you don't tell')
OMG, ssssalizar, do you think it possible that Ludo is himself an animagus? I am not a big fan of the "everybody and their brother is an animagus" type theorizing, but when you said this^, something just clicked about the wasp buzzing around during Harry's O.W.L. exam - Bagman's Winbourne Wasps robes are repeatedly emphasized.

[Dedalus Diggle]

I have suspected since GoF that we would have to have a book where the goblins are a major factor. The sides are being chosen, LV appears to be having more success with the giants, and certainly with the dementors. The centaurs appear neutral, but Firenze has taken a stand and may be a harbinger of a break in the centaurs' cultural aversity to taking sides (by the way, where are the girl centaurs?). The goblins appear to be most interested in what is good for business. They have grievances with the ministry, and they have often been inrebellion, but they are also cunning enough not to want to switch a moderately contentious relationship for slavery. Bagman may come up in a goblin-based plot, with the large sum he owed being a sticking point, where either he shows some fiber and making the commitment to do what he has to or in some other way the Dumbledore faction making it up to them (Sirius's Vault 711?). This might also be the sort of tough negotiation that makes the wizard world dump a mushy waffler like Fudge and make someone who is ready to fight LV the MoM

[Jerkwater]

I definitely think there is more to Ludo Bagman than we have been let in on. I believe he is a Death Eater of some sort, but not connected to the other Death Eaters. Perhaps he works directly for Voldemort.

In GoF, he kept trying to help Harry with the tasks, and later we find out that it was because he had bet on Harry with the goblins. Well, that's one reason, but what if he was also helping Harry so that Harry would be sure to reach the Goblet first and be taken to Voldemort??

[Dark Fallen Pride]

Yes I think that Ludo is probably an evil man, we wouldn't know but I think Winky was telling the truth, Mr. Crouch wasn't a bad man, I think it shows compashion when he took in his son to save him from the dementors...I was thinking we would see more Ludo in book 5, but I was wrong...perhaps in book 6...wait didn't we look in a pensive or something and see Ludo? we did didn't we?

[schwarzendrache]

Originally posted by Dark Fallen Pride (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?postid=479888#post479888))
Yes I think that Ludo is probably an evil man, we wouldn't know but I think Winky was telling the truth, Mr. Crouch wasn't a bad man, I think it shows compashion when he took in his son to save him from the dementors...I was thinking we would see more Ludo in book 5, but I was wrong...perhaps in book 6...wait didn't we look in a pensive or something and see Ludo? we did didn't we?

I'm not so sure about Crouch Sr.'s "compassion". In the book it said that he tried to sever ties with his son right after the hearing. (Or something to that effect.) And the only reason he "saved" his son from the dementors was his wife's dying plea, which was also stated in the books. I agree that maybe there is more to Bagman than we know. But I cannot take Winky's word as proof because she probably is brainwashed by the Crouches. (Crouches? Real wierd.)

[Dark Fallen Pride]

Crouch just wanted to keep his good image, the fact that he kept his son for his wife was really nice of him...
Perhaps Crouch went a little far in describing Ludo to Winky, I still think he has an evil side to him, Ludo just seems the type.

[Hammi]

I think over all Bagman will return and have an impact on the books. Jk mentioned Bagman enough that we didn't forget about him, but not to much that the plot dwelled on him. I don't think Bagman is working or ever has for LV but he has his own things going on, I mean, did the ministry actually do some sort of cover up type thing to get him out of the goblin trouble?

[NiCk RiDdLe]

Rita definately knows more then she has told Herminie. it only makes sence. and also as Hammi said JKR mentioned Bagman enough times so we don't forget him. JKR always leaves little clues and we jus have to notice them.

[Ashkins]

Winky being a house elf can hear things that go on. Not just what she is told. She could have over heard or been in the same room when Bagman and Crouch were speaking to each other. (Sr or Jr Crouch) And formed her opinion based on that.

[phoenixsong]

A new thought about Bagman. If he was still a Winbourne Wasps player back at the time he was accused of being a Death Eater, what kind of information could he possibly have been gathering and passing on to Rookwood? Why would anything that he would have access to in that capacity be of any value to Voldemort? If nothing else, shouldn't this convince us that there is more to Bagman than meets the eye?

[Falcon121]

Hi all,

I know how you guys are raking the books for clues while waitng for the coming book ...but here's something u should look at...

Here's a connection I've made...

Bagman...

1.Accused of being a Death Eater, got off because of he was a Quidditch player and his fans voted him not guilty...

2.Hard Core Gambler...loss lots of money gambling...world cup...tri-wizard tournament...

3.Rita Skeeter knows some thing about him "that will make your hair curl"

4.Winky says Bagman is a dark wizard

Ok...Let's see,Bagman being a Quidditch player has lots of money and goes of squanddering it(like many Celebrities we've seen so far;Elvis etc)and makes a huge bet...he losses and a whole lot of people chase him for their gold...he sells his secrets to a death eater(i forgot his name,its in GoF,the trail scene)and gets the gold back to pay them back...when accused of selling Ministry secrets to the Dark side his fans show up and get him of the hook...

Or...

Bagman loses his money gambling and goes to the Dark Side trading information for protection(against the people he owes gold) then after Voldy shows up at Godric's Hollow he brings in an army of nifflers to search the house for the gold the Potter's have,(unfortunately its at Gringotts)and they tear the house down...the rest of the theory follows as the above...

So tell me have i gone to far on streching the predictions?Well, i do have evidence,remember Skeeter saying she knows things about Bagman that would make Hermione's hair curl? and what about Winky eh?

The Second theory would also explain the time gap on the day that Potters were attacked...

[_BT_]

Okay, after GoF I bought the line that Ludo Bagman was just a bit of an idiot, and that his connection with LV was only accidental, that he had been tricked by Augustus Rookwood. But after reading OotP, and seeing the mention of Bagman at least twice (once when Bill says that the head goblin is still mad that the ministry isn't punishing Bagman, and again during Harry's hearing, when Fudge describes long odds as (paraphrased) "Even Bagman wouldn't bet on that one"), I wonder if we mightn't see him again, and if so, in what connection? Does Rita Skeeter know more about him then the Rookwood incident (I know things about Ludo Bagman that would make your hair curl...not that it needs it)? And Winky (Ludo Bagman is a bad, bad wizard...)?

well i can be sure we'll be seeing some more of ol' ludo bagman. as for your last statements (rita quote and the winky deal) i think it's possible that maybe he has connections to the darker side. i always thought he was a bit suspicious in gof... but who knows.

Ok...Let's see,Bagman being a Quidditch player has lots of money and goes of squanddering it(like many Celebrities we've seen so far;Elvis etc)and makes a huge bet...he losses and a whole lot of people chase him for their gold...he sells his secrets to a death eater(i forgot his name,its in GoF,the trail scene)and gets the gold back to pay them back...when accused of selling Ministry secrets to the Dark side his fans show up and get him of the hook...

that's actually a pretty good possibility. we all know ludo loves to gamble... and usually loses.

[Mutant for Hire]

Actually, I don't think that there's really any hidden depths to Ludo Bagman. He was just an idiot.

On the other hand, Voldemort might capture Bagman and hand him over to the goblins as a token of good faith. Certainly it will help his envoy get their foot in the door.

[Popkin]

Ludo might be an idiot, but that wouldn't keep him from being a death eater. Look at Crabbe and Goyle. Also, I don't think all the former death eaters were present at the cemetary. Karkaroff said that no one knew who they all were, so that no one could turn them all in. The death eaters in the circle were probably like LV's board of directors - his closest alies.

Winky is a loyal house elf, but she knows the difference between a good wizard and a bad one. She calls Barty Crouch Jr. a bad wizard, and she's loyal to Barty Sr. for good reason. He's a responsible and dedicated man. Certainly he has been overzealous. We know this because Dumbledore said he was, and Dumbledore is always right. Crouch erred when he convicted Sirius without a trial, but he was certainly right about his own son.

And I think Crouch Sr. was right about Ludo Bagman, too. Ludo was present when the dark mark appeared at the campsite in GoF. Even though the goblins were nearby, I don't think Ludo was at that particular place because he was evading them. I think he was aiding Barty Crouch Jr. It probably made him nervous to be so near to the goblins, but if he had been hiding from them, he would have apparated somewhere far away. After all, he did apparate when he knew the ministry officials would be missing him.

Also, Ludo made no attempt to find Bertha Jorkins until he was really pressured to do so. He explained her disappearance away by saying she was forgetful. But Dumbledore said he remembered Bertha having an exceptional memory - especially for gossip. Bertha worked closely with Ludo, and I'm guessing that Rita Skeeter was not the only one who knew things about him that would make your hair curl. Ludo was probably glad to see Bertha go, and was hoping to never see or hear of her again. Voldemort probably got information from Bertha about Ludo. He said he extracted every bit of information from her that he could, until she was completely useless. Then he probably went to Ludo, or sent Wormtail, to use Ludo's secrets to coerce him to help Barty Jr. and sway events to make sure Harry would win the tournament.

I also think Ludo is likely an animagus. In GoF p274, after the sound of scurrying feet Ludo Bagman appears. He's supposed to be a burly man, and burly men do not "scurry".

The quote (above) from Ludo's trial ends just a tad too soon. In GoF p593, Barty Crouch Sr. goes on to say, "The day Ludo Bagman joins us will be a sad day indeed for the Ministry." I think that message is probably prophetic. Another possible bit of evidence is "Fleur Delacour" anagrams to say "Fear cruel Ludo."

One last thought: Who was kissing Florence and then put a hex on Bertha Jorkins? (GoF p599) Do you think that might have been Ludo?

I thought we'd see Ludo in book five. I really expect him to have a big part in book six.

[Popkin]

I really like the niffler idea. It never is explained what happened to the Potter's home after Harry is attacked. The nifflers make some sense.

[Fortescue]

I doubt Ludo is a Death Eater. If he was trying to guide Harry through the tournament so that Voldemort could come back, then Crouch would not have had to pose as Moody. However, I do think that we have not seen the last of Ludo, but my impression of him was just a gambling sort of idiot.

[hermeeownninny]

Interesting point, Falcon121, anyone remember the OJ Simpson trial? Celebrities always get off. . .

I doubt that Ludo is a Death Eater. . he's just too stupid, too bumbling- would Voldy want someone like that working for him? All the people that we know to be Death Eaters- Lucius, Bellatrix, Macnair (with the exception of Wormtail) are dripping with evil. Unless all that is an act? And I doubt he's an animagus- not everyone is- jk's already used that three times- Sirius, Wormtail, Rita Skeeter. But what if Bagman is a metamorphmagus? I think someone else is beside Tonks.

[phoenix_gurl]

~~~If he was a DE, wouldn't he have the Dark Mark and be called at the end of book four? Was he mentioned in LV's circle?(just a quick note)~~~

[Popkin]

A metamorphmagis does make sense, Hermeeownninny. At one time Ludo appears after the sound of scurrying feet, which sounds like a rodent - but at another time he probably appears as a wasp (like the Wimbourne Wasps that he played for). He's definitely dodgy.

[Popkin]

I stick by what I said earlier. You do not have to be smart to be helpful to LV. If that were the case, he'd just dispose of Crabbe and Goyle.

I don't know what Ludo did for LV and Barty Jr. Maybe he just gathered information. If he is an animorphmagis, he would have unique abilities in that area.

We also know that he tried to help Harry succeed in winning the triwizard tournament, but he was completely unsuccessful in making any difference.

[jasper]

Ludo is more of a support character. He's out there for contrast with other characters, or help give info to or about important characters. I don't think he'll play a big active role.

[Yellowhead]

I don't believe that Bagman is simply a support character with a severe gambling problem. J.K. doesn't give that much depth to a character just to leave them running away with so many open ends. I also believe the same for Igor Karkaroff. After all, lesser characters have come back into play latter as more important ones (Think Sirius Black). Even if Bagman himself physically doesn't play I feel his story will play a crucial part in how the Goblins react to the second war with Lord Voldemort.

[Liselle]

This is something that I came across quite awhile ago and I just tihnk that its food for thought!

Liselle

This is a theory that I have so far not heard from anybody else. I think that Ludo Bagman is an animagus and his animal is Crookshanks. I am aware of all the counter—arguments (the kneazle thing and him just being a smart cat etc.). I'm just trying to throw out so evidence that we can be expecting some weird (and evil) stuff from Ludo in the near future. To start, Ludo got off WAY too easily at his trial. It was basically "Hey! I like you in Quidditch! You're free!" there was hardly any trial at all, no truth serum, no interrogation, nothing. Plus, he's a little too... I dunno, slippery. No one ever really questions him or even considers him a threat (personally I thought he was the behind-the-scenes bad guy throughout GoF). This quote is my biggest piece of Animagis proof: ""He had the looks of a powerfully built man gone to see...large belly.... his nose was squashed (probably borken by a stray bludger, Harry thought)"" (the bold is mine) didn't we hear the same thing about Scabbers in book 1? He's missing a toe, oh, probably just got in a fight with another rat. In this case its the reverse. Crookshanks has a broken nose and they just brush it off. There is another descriptions that are indicative if the dots are connected: ""blond hair". Crookshanks is blond (orange) with stripes. Ludo Bagman's quidditch team was the Wasps, with a striped uniform (granted, black and yellow but still stripes). We never find out whether or not Ludo is bowlegged but Krum walked strangely and after years of Quidditch and gripping the broom with one leg (as one does with a horse with the same results) one WOULD become bow-legged! Ludo Bagman doesn't have a very demanding job and Crookshanks isn't always around. The old switch-a-roo could work, all he has to do is apparate outside the grounds and appear often enough so Hermione wouldn't get suspicious. I'm assuming that Ludo is a bad guy, probably in league with Voldemort. Crookshanks hated Scabbers (this can be tossed to Sirius telling him to) and I figure that a lot of Voldemort supporters are pretty ticked off at Peter for bringing Voldemort's reign to a temporary end. Most likely Ludo/Crookshanks could smell that it was Peter or had earlier knowledge of him being an illegal animagus.<o:p></o:p>
To counter a counter-argument that questions why Crookshanks would be in a pet store may I suggest that JKR wasn't lying and that it is quite possible that the original Crookshanks was part kneazle....until Ludo either replaced him so Harry Potter or his friends would buy him. This is stretching it a bit but I don't wholy believe this theory is true but there are a few too many similarites to brush off Ludo or Crookshanks (or both combined!)

[Liselle]

This one is all my own though…………

Bagmans realname = Ludovic Bagman. After a little digging I came up with these meanings for the name

*LUDOVIC: English form of Gaelic name meaning "devotee of the Lord." Diminutive is Ludo. (the dark Lord??)

*Ludovic= Learned (who's to say that Bagman really is taht stupid? could it be argued only someone really clever could be so stupid?

*Bagman, Ludo: A former Beater for the Wimbourne Wasps, a Death Eater allowed to remain free after
pleading youthful misconduct, more recently the head of the Department of Magical Games and Sports, and
most recently in hiding from goblin financiers who do not understand the term "debt restructuring".

Etym: The name means "one who carries a bag". In criminal jargon, can mean a money launderer, or someonewho specializes in making inconvenienct people disappear.

Bagman, Otto (GoF ch. 5): Ludo Bagman's brother, who got into "a spot of trouble" with the Misuse of MuggleArtifacts Office over an enchanted lawnmower.

*Ludovic "Ludo" Bagman: Ludovic is from Gaelic for "devotee of the Lord." Ludo also is Latin for "I play." (He heads the Department of Magical Sport and Games.) In British slang, a bagman is a traveling salesman. In U.S.slang, it means a person who transports cash for a criminal operation. Ludo was a secret gambler who threwaway his money.

Basically I wouldn't trust Bagman as far as I could throw him (or Fudge for that matter either). Let me know what you think about this!

Liselle :)

[phoenixsong]

~~~If he was a DE, wouldn't he have the Dark Mark and be called at the end of book four? Was he mentioned in LV's circle?(just a quick note)~~~
He is not mentioned in Voldemort's circle at the end of GoF, but of course you can't apparate from the grounds of Hogwarts. BUT, on the train home in GoF, when Fred and George explain about the bet with Bagman, and about Bagman's bet on Harry to win the triwizard tournament, George describes how Bagman had to flee the goblins after the 3rd task: "So Bagman had to run for it. He did run for it right after the third task." It is certainly possible that he ran for it, not only to escape the goblins, but in order to make a slightly late appearance at the side of Voldemort.

[Popkin]

"a devotee of the lord" makes perfect sense. And I'm with you 100% in the Fudge department. Those guys are both bad news. I'm looking to find out Fudge thinks Goblins taste just like chicken.

But, I can't see the Ludo is Crookshanks logic. If he were Crookshanks, he would not have been in league with Sirius. The broken nose is something to look out for, but to me blonde and orange hair are not at all alike. In another forum, it says that Crookshanks hair is actually described as ginger colored - just as Dumbledore's was before it turned white, and as Ginny Weasley's is. All the blondes I've noticed in the books have been bad characters. I'm putting my money on Crookshanks being a polar opposite of Ludo.

Where do you get etym? I sure can see Ludo making the inconvenient Bertha disappear - setting her up to meet Peter in that pub in Romania.

[Liselle]

It was so long ago that I got the Crookshanks/Bagman theory and then came up with my own after a bit of random digging around the internet that I honestly don't remember.....I don't really subscribe to the Crokshanks/Bagman bit myself I just thought that it was interesting.

I agree with what you're saying about JK not giving characters depth unless needed and there is a whole lot there about Bagman....inuendos from people and here-say about him too.

On the other hand Ludo didn't go looking for Bertha when he probably should have organised someone to do so......I honestly think that he is bad bad news....

Liselle

[phoenixsong]

I LIKE the idea that Bagman set up Bertha's "disappearance" in Romania - he was always making excuses ("but Bagman just keeps laughing and saying she probably misread the map and ended up in Australia instead of Albania"). In fact, he could have made certain that she had the necessary information about the triwizard tournament before she left. Only thing is, it really didn't seem like Bagman was in on Barty Crouch, Jr.'s plan. I suppose he could have been unwittingly used, yet again, if he was, in fact, innocent the first time around.

[Liselle]

true he could have been a pawn but we've seen time and time agian that things are not always as they seem

[Falcon121]

Hang on!

I really like the Bagman/Crookshanks theory posted by Liselle ,but there's a BIG rift in that theory...

Remember when Sirius was at Hogwarts in PoA? He said that Crookshanks saw him for what he was,an Animagus...but wouldn't Sirius be able to see that Crookshanks was an Animagus as well??

[Liselle]

not necessarily......on does one animagus recognise another? did anyone recognise Rita as an animagus.....Hermionie just put two and two together I think.....

Crookshanks could be a kneazle on the other hand.....

[phoenixsong]

Yeah, I'm pretty certain that Crookshanks is all or part Kneazle, since they are able to detect "unsavoury characters" which Pettigrew certainly is. And if Bagman were Crookshanks, why on earth would he have been helping Sirius? I don't think that one animagus can recognize another, because surely then McGonagall would have recognized the 3 unregistered animagi (Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs) who were sitting in her Transfiguration classes.

[Liselle]

I'm in agreement with you Phoenixsong, also McGonagall should have recognised Rita as one too

[Falcon121]

Erm...could you just refresh my memory...

what's a Kneazle?

[Liselle]

oh sorry, in the book Fantastic Beasts and where to find them (written by JK for the Comic REeief Charity in the uk)....here's a brief run down of them

Kneazle
M.O.M Rating: XXX

Kneazle - originally from Britain, a small catlike animal that is now a worldwide export. Its fur is spotted or flecked, its ears large, and its tail resembles a lion's. They are characterized by intelligence, independence, occasional aggression, and are capable of being wonderful pets if they like a wizard or witch. They can breed with cats.

Hope that clears things up a little for you
Liselle


ps: you know reading that little description really makes me think that Crookshanks is Kneazle or part knezle, I think that it was the occasional bouts of agression that they are known for sold it to me finally.

I think that with Fantastic Beasts and where to find them as well as quidditch through the ages that there are some clues to the canon!

[phoenixsong]

There's a bit more relevant information in the Kneazle description in Fantastic Beasts:
The Kneazle has an uncanny ability to detect unsavoury or suspicious characters and can be relied upon to guide its owner safely home if they are lost.

This part explains why Crookshanks (rather than Ludo Bagman) would instantly see Scabbers for what he was.

[Mad I]

I know that others have already said this in other threads but it is also a possibility that Crookshanks is a half-kneazle thus allowing her kneazleness to not be known by her handler (the pet guy).

[Liselle]

yup maybe, thanks Phoenixsone for pointing out the last bit, I was just too lazy to go get my copy of Fantastic Beasts and where to find them!

I wonder what else we can know about Crookshanks......

Liselle

[Merrymime]

Okay. I thought I would reawake the Ludo Bagman thread, because I don't think we should completely forget him and I have had a crazy thought since before OotP ever came out in regards to GoF. I'm leary to mention it, because I'm sure you will all hang me by my ankles in Filch's office for this one. It's quite an insane theory and I had hoped after the fifth book came out it would either encourage or discourage this theory in some form or another. But...unfortunately, it didn't do either. It's a highly unlikely theory and I'm hanging on a thread, because the book isn't really over. We've only finished Chp. 5, really. There's two more chapters left. And I wanted to get this theory out there, just incase by some miracle it pans out.

Basically, I don't buy the end of GoF. It was too simple. Everything was taken care of so easily. All of a sudden the faithful servant of Voldemort is caught, given Veritaserum; he tells all that is necessary about how he is the faithful servant and then he collapses. Shortly after that, Fudge comes in with a Dementor and the Dementor (who we know to be on Voldemort's side) pounces and kills him immediately. This was not on Fudge's order. Fudge just wanted to bring the Dementor in for protection. Dumbledore and McGonagal and Snape were not very happy about this. However, no matter. The faithful servant of Voldemort is dead and that's all we really care about, right? So everything is taken care of and all is well with the world. The faithful servant to Voldemort is dead. Yea!

This seems funny to me. It seems very Ministry of Magic like; too easy.

Why would a Dementor on Voldemort's side kill his most faithful servant? Well, maybe because Voldemort somehow found out he had been captured. But, how did he find out?

Personally, I don't think Crouch Jr. was the faithful servant to Voldemort. I still think as I have always thought, that it is Ludo Bagman. Either Crouch Jr. or Crouch Sr. was in Snape's office. And could have very easily switched out the Veritaserum with fake Veritaserum. We now have learned from OotP that there is such a thing as fake Veritaserum that looks just like real Veritaserum.

"Ludo Bagman is a bad, bad wizard," says Winky.

"I could tell you things about Ludo Bagman that would make your hair curl." says Rita Skeeter.

There's a few little holes in GoF and each of them could be mistakes, I suppose. But, I've found quite a few.

1 - When Harry dreams of Wormtail getting punished by Voldemort for letting Crouch Sr. get away, we don't actually see Voldemort; we just see the back of the chair. However, a wand appears from behind the chair and performs the Cruciatus Curse on Wormtail. But, how could Voldemort have held the wand if he didn't have a body?

When Harry tells Dumbledore about this dream, Harry asks Dumbledore this same question. In which Dumbledore replies, "How indeed?"

Later when Priori Incantatum happens, we hear the cries of the Cruciatus Curse between Cedric and Frank. So, the Curse had to have really happened sometime between Frank's death and Cedric's death. Wouldn't it make sense that it was the curse against Peter? But how? This was not explained by the end of the book. Could it have been Ludo Bagman there, having apparated and let Voldemort possess him?

2 - It seems fishy to me that Ludo Bagman was tried as a death eater, but went free. He went free not because it was proven that he was innocent, but because he was this handsome and popular Quidditch player. One person says, "We'd just just like to congratulate Mr. Bagman on his splendid performance for England in the Quidditch match against Turkey last Saturday." Also, we're supposed to believe he is just this stupid git who had no idea what the information was he was carrying to Rookwood. I don't believe it. I think he's been putting on an act that he's stupid.

3 - Also, Crouch Jr. was brought in to the courtroom with the LeStranges. Bellatrix and her husband and his brother were proud to go to Azkaban. They knew their master would come for them. But, Crouch Jr. pleads with his father and mother to not go. He denies it and screams to not have to go. We're supposed to believe that this was an act, but Sirius says later that Crouch Jr. looked pretty ill when he came to Azkaban and was dying. Why was the most faithful servant of Voldemort ill when he first got to Azkaban?

4 - When Crouch Jr. as Moody, takes Harry into his office, he gives him some sort of drink that clears his head. It has a peppery taste to it. I haven't figured out yet what this was. Does anyone know? What was this? And why? This was not explained.

5 - Doesn't it seem to be a pretty big coincidence that at the same time Crouch Jr. is caught is the same time Bagman disappears? "Oh, he's just running from the Goblins, the stupid idiot," you may be saying. But, is he? Or has he returned to his master? When Harry came back with the Portkey after Voldemort had gained back his power, Ludo wasn't even around. How would he have even known who won?

6 - How did Voldemort get his wand back? Perhaps Ludo has been keeping it for him. Ludo got in to work in the MoM even though Crouch Sr. had said at his trial that it would be a sad day indeed if he ever worked for the Ministry. Perhaps Ludo had been looking for his master all this time and he just hadn't found him. I think this is what makes Ludo a faithful servant.

7 - Other questions I had was why was Bertha in Albania? And how did the rumor come about that Voldemort was in Albania? And what stupid idiot sent Bertha to the same place Voldemort was rumored to be?

GoF is my favorite of all five books. I think I like it best, because there is so much detail; even more than in OotP, I think. There was so much deception; so many characters we were unsure of. Voldemort's plan was so carefully laid out. There had been much thought gone into it. I think that's why he was able to come back. He deceived everyone.

However, are we sure we are still not deceived? What it boils down to is are we sure JKR would not go so far as to end one book in a deception that she plans to reveal in a later book? Should we so blindly believe everything she writes down in every sentence? Lockhart tells Harry in CoS that "Books can be deceiveing." Through the whole 3rd book she made it very clear to us that Sirius Black was a treacherous murderer. He was the reason Harry has no parents. We were deceived. However, she did reveal to us before the end of the book that we were wrong.

But, would she always end each book like that? In books one through three all our questions always seemed answered by the end of the book, but starting with GoF, everything didn't seem to be answered, like in a couple of things I stated above. And if there are things left unanswered, couldn't we still be deceived?

I'm sure you will now tell me all the reasons why this theory cannot be and that's good, because there are still a few things I haven't worked out and if this is impossible, I want to know.

[phoenixsong]

Welcome, Merrymime. Some of your questions/theories have been discussed earlier on this thread, but I will respond to some of those that weren't:
1 - But, how could Voldemort have held the wand if he didn't have a body?

When Harry tells Dumbledore about this dream, Harry asks Dumbledore this same question. In which Dumbledore replies, "How indeed?"The point here was that Voldemort did, indeed, have a body. The ugly baby body. Which was enough to hold a wand. Harry and Dumbledore are trying to figure out whether or not Harry's dream was true. Dumbledore knows of Frank Bryce's death from reading the Muggle papers. Therefore they can conclude that Voldemort has returned in bodily form.

Later when Priori Incantatum happens, we hear the cries of the Cruciatus Curse between Cedric and Frank. So, the Curse had to have really happened sometime between Frank's death and Cedric's death. Yes, we saw this cruciatus curse, via Harry's vision during his Divination class. Harry sees Voldemort torturing Wormtail for having "blundered" by not properly controlling Barty Crouch, Sr. And again, he could perform this curse in his ugly baby form.

but Sirius says later that Crouch Jr. looked pretty ill when he came to Azkaban and was dying. Why was the most faithful servant of Voldemort ill when he first got to Azkaban?Crouch Jr. would have been affected by the Dementors as much as everybody. I think that Sirius was just "reading back" from the apparent fact that Crouch, Jr. soon died, that he must have been dying when he came in; Sirius didn't know that Crouch Jr. didn't die, that his mother took his place.

4 - When Crouch Jr. as Moody, takes Harry into his office, he gives him some sort of drink that clears his head. It has a peppery taste to it. I haven't figured out yet what this was. Does anyone know? What was this? And why? This was not explained.I assumed that it might be Pepper-Up potion.

7 - Other questions I had was why was Bertha in Albania? And how did the rumor come about that Voldemort was in Albania? And what stupid idiot sent Bertha to the same place Voldemort was rumored to be?Bertha wasn't sent to Albania, she was on holiday, visiting her cousin. I don't think that Ludo Bagman could have arranged that.

But some of the other ideas have been discussed here; why don't you take a look at the other posts in the thread?

As for me, I've got another possible piece of evidence:
does anyone else think it odd that Bagman, if he were actually betting on Harry against the goblins, would have gone up to Harry to offer him help right in front of the goblins that day in the Three Broomsticks? I mean, first of all, it seems odd that the goblins would place a bet on the outcome of a competition with one of the judges of that competition. But then would they overlook blatant evidence that he is trying to influence the match? Maybe Ludo Bagman has a different relationship with the goblins, altogether.

[Mrs Padfoot]

I would just like to say that Dementors don't always do things for people, they work for themselves, or whoever will offer them the most people to kiss. So a Dementor would have no problem finishing off Crouch jr even if it was working for Voldemort, which the Dementors weren't then.

Anyway. The theory about Bagman being Voldemorts most loyal servant sounds very far-fetched. (Not saying it's completely false) Rita Skeeter probably just meant his gambling.

I can't think of anything else to put - Why are everyone else's replies so much longer than mine?

[Hermy121]

I can't think of anything else to put - Why are everyone else's replies so much longer than mine?
I know what you mean mine are never very long either.

I think that we will hear about ludo more. Did anyone actually say weather he got away from the goblins.

[Kaonashi]

I can see Ludo becoming more and more crooked in Books 6-7 just to get out of his desperate situation with the goblins. Let's face it, if Lucious Malfoy, bellatrix, or even Voldemort himself told Bagman that they would pay off his debts with the goblins if he could arrange for Harry to be at a certain place at a certain time, he would do everything in his power to make it so.

Crookshanks part-kneazle? Makes sense to me. That might also explain why he was "in that petshop for ages; nobody wanted him!" according to Hermoine. A full-grown witch might have her reasons for not wanting a half-kneazle cat; at that point they had yet to study kneazles and Hermoine wouldn't recognize those traits in Crookshanks.

[phoenixsong]

I think that we will hear about ludo more. Did anyone actually say weather he got away from the goblins.Well, he got two mentions in OotP. First when Bill is talking about whether or not the Goblins will side with Voldemort, he says that Ragnok (some goblin leader? chief banker?) "hasn't stopped raging about the Bagman business, he reckons the Ministry did a cover-up, those goblins never got their gold from him, you know-" and then later, during Harry's trial, Fudge says, "But dementors wandering into a Muggle suburb and just happeningto come across a wizard? The odds on that must be very, very long, even Bagman wouldn't have bet-"

So, yes, Bagman is still very much around, and seems to have a certain iconic status as a gambler, and is the apparent cause for goblin resentment of the Ministry at the moment.

[Wab]

I tend to think Bagman is a stupid venal man. Not evil, exactly but perfectly capable of serving it if need be.

Part of this seems to be that he desperately wants to be liked by everyone and may happily and unwittingly serve the Dark Lord in the belief he is just doing someone a favour.

Plus his gambling problem leaves him open to all sorts of manipulation.

[Liselle]

Okay. I thought I would reawake the Ludo Bagman thread, because I don't think we should completely forget him I think that one of creepiest aspects of OOTP was the absolute no show of Bagman and Wormtail! They are gone for the moment but definitely not forgotten


Basically, I don't buy the end of GoF. It was too simple. Everything was taken care of so easily. All of a sudden the faithful servant of Voldemort is caught, given Veritaserum; he tells all that is necessary about how he is the faithful servant and then he collapses. Shortly after that, Fudge comes in with a Dementor and the Dementor (who we know to be on Voldemort's side) pounces and kills him immediately. This was not on Fudge's order. Fudge just wanted to bring the Dementor in for protection. Dumbledore and McGonagal and Snape were not very happy about this. However, no matter. The faithful servant of Voldemort is dead and that's all we really care about, right? So everything is taken care of and all is well with the world. The faithful servant to Voldemort is dead. Yea!

This seems funny to me. It seems very Ministry of Magic like; too easy.

Why would a Dementor on Voldemort's side kill his most faithful servant? Well, maybe because Voldemort somehow found out he had been captured. But, how did he find out?

Personally, I don't think Crouch Jr. was the faithful servant to Voldemort. I still think as I have always thought, that it is Ludo Bagman. Either Crouch Jr. or Crouch Sr. was in Snape's office. And could have very easily switched out the Veritaserum with fake Veritaserum. We now have learned from OotP that there is such a thing as fake Veritaserum that looks just like real Veritaserum.

OOOOOOH! I like that one although when he said his most faithful servent was at Hogwarts I think it fits Crouch Jr a little more than Bagman...although as you say it sounds a little too neat. Red Herring alert prehaps?

"Ludo Bagman is a bad, bad wizard," says Winky. = we think its true however we don't have any actual truth. Winky would have seen stuff and heard stuff about Bagman alright that we don't know......I don't believe that he's reformed at all

"I could tell you things about Ludo Bagman that would make your hair curl." says Rita Skeeter. = like what, again we suspect but we don't actually know anything besides the gambling and the "suspicion of being a death eater"


2 - It seems fishy to me that Ludo Bagman was tried as a death eater, but went free. He went free not because it was proven that he was innocent, but because he was this handsome and popular Quidditch player. One person says, "We'd just just like to congratulate Mr. Bagman on his splendid performance for England in the Quidditch match against Turkey last Saturday." Also, we're supposed to believe he is just this stupid git who had no idea what the information was he was carrying to Rookwood. I don't believe it. I think he's been putting on an act that he's stupid.
check out the Main Hall, there's a discussion on Justice not being served....I think this would tie in well with it. Its just a shocking example of how fame and fortune can help you worm your way out of things (OJ anyone?!)

3 - Also, Crouch Jr. was brought in to the courtroom with the LeStranges. Bellatrix and her husband and his brother were proud to go to Azkaban. They knew their master would come for them. But, Crouch Jr. pleads with his father and mother to not go. He denies it and screams to not have to go. We're supposed to believe that this was an act, but Sirius says later that Crouch Jr. looked pretty ill when he came to Azkaban and was dying. Why was the most faithful servant of Voldemort ill when he first got to Azkaban?never ever thought of that you know.......

4 - When Crouch Jr. as Moody, takes Harry into his office, he gives him some sort of drink that clears his head. It has a peppery taste to it. I haven't figured out yet what this was. Does anyone know? What was this? And why? This was not explained.I always assumed that this was Pep-up thing that Madame Pomfrey was giving out for colds......

5 - Doesn't it seem to be a pretty big coincidence that at the same time Crouch Jr. is caught is the same time Bagman disappears? "Oh, he's just running from the Goblins, the stupid idiot," you may be saying. But, is he? Or has he returned to his master? When Harry came back with the Portkey after Voldemort had gained back his power, Ludo wasn't even around. How would he have even known who won?hmm perchance

6 - How did Voldemort get his wand back? Perhaps Ludo has been keeping it for him. Ludo got in to work in the MoM even though Crouch Sr. had said at his trial that it would be a sad day indeed if he ever worked for the Ministry. Perhaps Ludo had been looking for his master all this time and he just hadn't found him. I think this is what makes Ludo a faithful servant.
I put the wand down to either Ollivander (there's a thread about the wand in his window) or Lucius Malfoy as I strongly believe that he owns the riddle house and is up to a lot of self serving trouble making



There was so much deception; so many characters we were unsure of. Voldemort's plan was so carefully laid out. There had been much thought gone into it. I think that's why he was able to come back. He deceived everyone.

However, are we sure we are still not deceived? What it boils down to is are we sure JKR would not go so far as to end one book in a deception that she plans to reveal in a later book? Should we so blindly believe everything she writes down in every sentence? Lockhart tells Harry in CoS that "Books can be deceiveing." Through the whole 3rd book she made it very clear to us that Sirius Black was a treacherous murderer. He was the reason Harry has no parents. We were deceived. However, she did reveal to us before the end of the book that we were wrong.

But, would she always end each book like that? In books one through three all our questions always seemed answered by the end of the book, but starting with GoF, everything didn't seem to be answered, like in a couple of things I stated above. And if there are things left unanswered, couldn't we still be deceived?
you know I think MerryMime you could be right, alot of us (me included) are only seeing what is written down...we are falling for red herrings all over the place, to keep us guessing. Only someone very clever could be so deceptive like Bagman, there is so much more to him than the "loveable rogue" that he's painted to be. He's calculating and up there with the worst of them

Liselle

[phoenixsong]

Okay, guys, here's another issue. If we wish to run with the idea that Ludo Bagman is a death eater, then I think that we also have to start speculating about his connection with the goblins. Either he is a death eater who also happens to have a gambling problem, and truly got in trouble with the goblins over money issues, OR he is a death eater who is secretly forging ties with some of the goblins, and the whole gambling thing was just a show. Because we do know that word of the gambling thing is common knowledge, as it is referred to twice in OotP, but it could be all for show.

It might also be interesting here to throw in the real-life story of Moe Berg, (I think that was his name), who was an American baseball player who was also an American spy: he travelled to Japan under the guise of playing baseball there, but was actually spying for the American government, which would work well with the question of: what kind of useful information could a Quidditch player be passing to Rookwood, anyway?

[Liselle]

Okay, guys, here's another issue. If we wish to run with the idea that Ludo Bagman is a death eater, then I think that we also have to start speculating about his connection with the goblins. Either he is a death eater who also happens to have a gambling problem, and truly got in trouble with the goblins over money issues, OR he is a death eater who is secretly forging ties with some of the goblins, and the whole gambling thing was just a show. Because we do know that word of the gambling thing is common knowledge, as it is referred to twice in OotP, but it could be all for show.
....Genius I love it! I like the idea that Bagman is forging ties with the Goblins right under our nose!...the only thing I have against that is that the Goblins did seem to be a bit mad, that and the Goblin family that was referred to by Mrs Weasley (I think anyway).......just to throw the cat amongst the pigeons for a moment I wonder would Bagman make a bid to overthrow Fudge? After all he has the popular support on the outside even if he is a turd in every other way

It might also be interesting here to throw in the real-life story of Moe Berg, (I think that was his name), who was an American baseball player who was also an American spy: he travelled to Japan under the guise of playing baseball there, but was actually spying for the American government, which would work well with the question of: what kind of useful information could a Quidditch player be passing to Rookwood, anyway?
excellent back up of point, I'd never heard of this at all! Wow! As to what information Bagman could be passing it could be anything....if you look at the structure of the Mom building its interesting to notice the level that the Sports department is on.....Bagman may seem stupid but chances are that he's not as stupid as he would seem (see below ~ learned!).....kind of like a false sense of security, people would say stuff infront of Bagman and he would soak it up like a sponge and pass it to Rookwood or others

just to re-hash what I said earlier on again (whats in a name? apparantly alot!)

*Ludovic: English form of Gaelic name meaning "devotee of the Lord." Diminutive is Ludo.
*Ludovic= Learned (who's to say that Bagman really is that stupid? could it be argued only someone really clever could be so stupid?

* Ludo is also from the latin I play


Liselle

[Jonny Boy]

He hasn't got the brains!

[phoenixsong]

He hasn't got the brains!Well, that is one of the things we are discussing here, the possibility that his "thickness" is all a show, that he can get away with all kinds of spying by playing the part of the charming but dim athlete.

[Merrymime]

*Ludovic: English form of Gaelic name meaning "devotee of the Lord." Diminutive is Ludo.
*Ludovic= Learned (who's to say that Bagman really is that stupid? could it be argued only someone really clever could be so stupid?

* Ludo is also from the latin I play

This is so good. I know I had read about what his name meant at an earlier time and I defiantely think it helps support the theory that Ludo is not what he appears. I think he is very learned and that is how he has been able to fool everyone. Thanks Liselle.

[Angora]

I don't know if Bagman was the most loyal servant, but Merrymime makes a really good point about the way Crouch Jr. got dragged off to Azkaban... although, at the time, the only people who could have told Voldemort about that were the Lestranges, and they were in jail. So, when Voldemort declared Crouch the most faithful (if indeed he did) he might not have known what went on at the trial.

I think Bagman might be the one who was too afraid to return (or failing that, the one set to be killed).

I mean, yes, you can think of him a little bit as a loveable fool, but there's something sinister lurking under there. He cheats people, and finds himself in financial difficulty all the time, and can't let go of Quidditch glory that's passed him by.

I could buy that he joined the DEs without knowing quite what he was getting himself into... and then when he didn't end up in prison he just went with it.

The reason I think that marks him as Cowardly Death Eater rather than Days Are Numbered Death Eater is that he avoided conviction by saying "I don't know, I don't know" and Karkaroff did it by betraying everyone. Whether Voldemort would know that, I don't know.

And I've talked myself right into him being the one that's supposed to die now. I don't know any more. But I think he's one or the other of them.

[phoenixsong]

I don't think that Bagman need be either the cowardly death eater or the days are numbered death eater. There were other spaces in the graveyard circle that Voldemort passed over in silence, and any of those spaces might have belonged to Ludo Bagman.

[Liselle]

This is so good. I know I had read about what his name meant at an earlier time and I defiantely think it helps support the theory that Ludo is not what he appears. I think he is very learned and that is how he has been able to fool everyone. Thanks Liselle.

no worries at all, its what we're all here for :)
I agree with what you're saying though only someone skilled and fairly intelligent could fool poeple into thinking they're so stupid...there is far more to Bagman than we know in my view. The whole death eaters debate is unbelieveable.....yes Voldemort did pass over some in the circle but who did he mean
*most faithful servent is at Hogwarts Snape? Bagman?
*One too cowardly to return, Snape? Bagman ??
*one who has left me forever.....DD, Snape, Karkaroff?

its just so hard to know unless we get some sort of hint or answer.....questions questions questions!

Liselle

[Sabine]

Great thoughts around here :tu:

I agree that there is much more to Bagman than just being a gambler "on the loose".

This gambling business does not justify the "curly hair"- remark from Rita.

And being cleared of from the judges for being a Death eater doesn't really count for something, especially not when you remember all the others that have been cleared: Malfoy, McNair, Crabbe, Goyle ....

But nevertheless I think that the "faithful servant" at Hogwarts indeed was Crouch jr.

Being able to be a spy in foreign countries, while playing Quidditch, seems a very good opinion - yes.

Sabine

[Softy]

I really don't see Bagman being a Death Eater.

You cant act stupid continuously for years so i don't think it is part of a cover story.

I think what we learned about him the the GoF is true.

1. He passed on information to a DE but he did it unknowingly. Rockwood worked for the MofM it was a shock for everyone in the court when Rockwoods name was given.
2. He is not the most responcible department leader, not worrying about Bertha and wearing his wasps robes and talking loudly about Quidditch. Though AW says you could not asks for a more enthusiastic head of department though so he has his good points.
3. Bagman has a gambling problem and owes serious money to goblins.

I could see him getting involved with unsavoury types to try and sort out his debts in future books and i think he will be around though as a minor charactor. I don't see him joining Voldemort though. He is just not the type.

Serously could you see him in Slitherin?

Remember the world isn't split into good people and death eaters!

[Sabine]

Serously could you see him in Slitherin?

Remember the world isn't split into good people and death eaters!

What would his schoolhouse have to do with it??? The world isn't split into good people and Slytherins either!

Sabine

[Liselle]

What would his schoolhouse have to do with it??? The world isn't split into good people and Slytherins either!

I agree with you Sabine, after all if Gryffindor's are brave, loyal, courageous etc then wouldn't you say that at the moment Wormtail is a very very bad example of it? He betrayed his friends leading to their death and gave his arm (*right arm*) for Voldie himself to come back. That not typical gryffindor material at all.

I'm not buying for one moment that he's a "loveable rogue" and is innocent of all the charges that were brought against him, yes he's stupid he owes money to the Goblins (not a good thing) but he was let off sure Azkaban time as he was a famous quidditch player not necessarily because he was innocent. JK has played the innocent man being accused of horriffic crimes already with Sirius, she wouldnt (I think) do the same thing for a character she likes less than Sirius.

(just my opinion on the matter!)
Liselle

[Merrymime]

Well, I wasn't planning on bringing this thread back up again, but there were a couple of things I had just recently caught when rereading GOF that seemed odd to me. Both things have to do with the scene in the woods after the Qudditch World Cup and they think Winky has conjured the Dark Mark.

First of all, (and this is pretty far fetched, but I thought I'd mention it anyway) is this part on pg. 137 Am. ed.:

"But then, she'd have been only a few feet away from the real culprit!" said Mr. Diggory impatiently. "Elf?" Did you see anyone?"

Winky began to tremble worse than ever. Her giant eyes flickered from Mr. Diggory, to Ludo Bagman, and onto Mr. Crouch. Then she gulped and said, "I is seeing no one, sir...no one..."

I thought it was very interesting that when asked if she had seen anyone, her eyes immediately went over to Ludo. It's pretty normal for the eyes to do that when asked a question like that and the answer is in front of you...and you're not sure if you should answer. But, then also her eyes went to Crouch Sr. Maybe Bagman had threatened Winky that if she said anything, he (Ludo) would kill her master. Or maybe Winky just automatically knew that if she turned Ludo over, her master (Crouch Sr.) would be in danger. So, she looked at the person she saw in the trees (Ludo), but then got scared for Crouch Sr., so she looked at him and then decided to lie in order to protect her master.

Yeah, that's really stretching it, I know. In fact, this may be my craziest thought, yet.

------------------

But, the 2nd thing I noticed lately is more curious to me. When Winky is found by Amos Diggory, she is found with Harry's wand specifcally in her hand. And this isn't just mentioned once in this scene. It is mentioned 4 different times through the scene on seperate pages...not just one right after another.

1) "Here, look." Mr. Diggory held up a wand and showed it to Mr. Weasley. "Had it in her hand..." (pg 132)

2) "And she had one," said Mr. Diggory. "I found her holding one, Ludo..." (pg 133)

3) "You were found with a wand in you hand!' barked Mr. Diggory, brandishing it in front of her. (pg 134)

4) "You've been caught red-handed, elf!" Mr. Diggory roared. "Caught with the guilty wand in your hand!" (pg 136)

Okay, so Winky had the wand in her hand, but when you go to listen to Crouch Jr. in the end explain what was really happening it reads as such:

"...I used the stolen wand to cast the Dark Mark into the sky.

Ministry wizards arrived. They shot Stunning Spells everywhere. One of the spells came through the trees where Winky and I stood. The bond connecting us was broken. We were both Stunned.

When Winky was discovered, my father knew I must be nearby. He searched the bushes where she had been found and felt my lying there. He waited until the other Ministry members had left the forest. He put me back under the Imperius Curse and took me home. He dismissed Winky. She had failed him. She had let me acquire a wand. She had almost let me escape."

Okay, so nowhere does this explain how Winky actually had the wand in her hand. It would have had to mysteriously bounce from Crouch Jr.'s hand into Winky's hand as soon as they were Stunned.

Winky in the Dark Mark scene tells the officials that she picked up the wand, but how could she have picked it up. Crouch Jr. would have had to drop Harry's wand right after conjuring the Dark Mark (and why he would do that, I have no idea) and Winky pick it up all before the officials came and Stunned them both. Maybe...but if Crouch Jr. had dropped his wand, wouldn't he have told that to Dumbledore under Veritaserum?

Okay, lengthy and tedious, but if anyone can explain to me how Winky got Harry's wand in her hand, I would love to hear it. I don't think it would just be a mistake of JKR's since she mentioned it 4 times. I think Ludo was involved somehow. I tried to find this on another thread, but I couldn't find it.

Also, didn't I read somewhere that "The Dark Mark" chapter JKR rewrote a lot. I don't remember exactly.

[potterfan300]

I hope Bagman comes back, but why would he?
He owes a lot of money from what we know so why would he even bother to come back??????????????????

[Nephel]

I always thought there was something not right about Bagman, if you ask me I'd say he's been a DE all along. Remember when Winky says 'Mr Bagman is a bad wizard!" I know this is probably referring to the fact that he gave information to Lord Voldemorte, but it could be something else.
A quote that also sticks out is "The day Ludo Bagman joins the Ministry will be a sad day for the ministry indeed". And whaddya know, he's head of magical games and sports.

[AffectedMangoO]

Ive got a question, does the last name Bagman have a meaning? Or is it a common name in England?
Anyways, I don't think we'll see him again anytime soon. :eyebrows:

[jasper]

Do you think Bagman planted the wand in her hand?
I don't know. I guess we need to understand the magic bond that was connecting Barty Jr. to Winky because that could explain it. Maybe she was holding onto the wand at the same time he was.


Well, I wasn't planning on bringing this thread back up again, but there were a couple of things I had just recently caught when rereading GOF that seemed odd to me. Both things have to do with the scene in the woods after the Qudditch World Cup and they think Winky has conjured the Dark Mark.

First of all, (and this is pretty far fetched, but I thought I'd mention it anyway) is this part on pg. 137 Am. ed.:



I thought it was very interesting that when asked if she had seen anyone, her eyes immediately went over to Ludo. It's pretty normal for the eyes to do that when asked a question like that and the answer is in front of you...and you're not sure if you should answer. But, then also her eyes went to Crouch Sr. Maybe Bagman had threatened Winky that if she said anything, he (Ludo) would kill her master. Or maybe Winky just automatically knew that if she turned Ludo over, her master (Crouch Sr.) would be in danger. So, she looked at the person she saw in the trees (Ludo), but then got scared for Crouch Sr., so she looked at him and then decided to lie in order to protect her master.

Yeah, that's really stretching it, I know. In fact, this may be my craziest thought, yet.

------------------

But, the 2nd thing I noticed lately is more curious to me. When Winky is found by Amos Diggory, she is found with Harry's wand specifcally in her hand. And this isn't just mentioned once in this scene. It is mentioned 4 different times through the scene on seperate pages...not just one right after another.

1) "Here, look." Mr. Diggory held up a wand and showed it to Mr. Weasley. "Had it in her hand..." (pg 132)

2) "And she had one," said Mr. Diggory. "I found her holding one, Ludo..." (pg 133)

3) "You were found with a wand in you hand!' barked Mr. Diggory, brandishing it in front of her. (pg 134)

4) "You've been caught red-handed, elf!" Mr. Diggory roared. "Caught with the guilty wand in your hand!" (pg 136)

Okay, so Winky had the wand in her hand, but when you go to listen to Crouch Jr. in the end explain what was really happening it reads as such:



Okay, so nowhere does this explain how Winky actually had the wand in her hand. It would have had to mysteriously bounce from Crouch Jr.'s hand into Winky's hand as soon as they were Stunned.

Winky in the Dark Mark scene tells the officials that she picked up the wand, but how could she have picked it up. Crouch Jr. would have had to drop Harry's wand right after conjuring the Dark Mark (and why he would do that, I have no idea) and Winky pick it up all before the officials came and Stunned them both. Maybe...but if Crouch Jr. had dropped his wand, wouldn't he have told that to Dumbledore under Veritaserum?

Okay, lengthy and tedious, but if anyone can explain to me how Winky got Harry's wand in her hand, I would love to hear it. I don't think it would just be a mistake of JKR's since she mentioned it 4 times. I think Ludo was involved somehow. I tried to find this on another thread, but I couldn't find it.

Also, didn't I read somewhere that "The Dark Mark" chapter JKR rewrote a lot. I don't remember exactly.

[Nephel]

Ive got a question, does the last name Bagman have a meaning? Or is it a common name in England?
Anyways, I don't think we'll see him again anytime soon. :eyebrows:


Well I dont know anybody called Bagman (besides the HP character) and I live in England. I think the name Bagman means Book Maker (i.e bookie, the person in charge of a gambling house in England)

[Merrymime]

Do you think Bagman planted the wand in her hand?
I don't know. I guess we need to understand the magic bond that was connecting Barty Jr. to Winky because that could explain it. Maybe she was holding onto the wand at the same time he was.

Actually, yes, I think maybe he did...or did something at least. The whole scene just seems fishy to me. Harry, Ron and Hermione are deep in the woods and Mr. Bagman comes walking up looking white and strained (this is supposed to be from the Goblins, but I don't know) and they have to tell Bagman about what's going on with the DE's attacking the Muggles. This comes as a complete shock to Bagman. He swears and curses them loudly, which seems odd to me and then apparates away immediately without another word. You'd think he's maybe going to go help with capturing the DEs, but he isn't. If he was, then he would have been with them later on when 20 or so of them come to get whoever conjuered the Dark Mark. Ludo wasn't with them. He showed up later...and he didn't seem to be as upset as he did with Harry and gang earlier.

Furthermore, just a few seconds after Ludo apparates away from Harry, Ron and Hermione in the woods is when the Dark Mark appears. If Bagman wasn't conjuering the Dark Mark, then what was he doing during that time he left Harry and came back in the middle of questioning Winky?

As far as the magical bond goes, wouldn't Crouch Jr. have mentioned something like Winky also holding his wand or grabbing for his wand or the bond causing the wand to somehow magically fly into Winky's hand after conjuering the Dark Mark, but before the Ministry officials stunned them? That would seem like a bit of important information to me. Crouch Jr. was under Veritaserum, right?

[jasper]

Okay, everything Bagman did was to make him look suspicious. JKR was writing him to make us wonder what he was up to. I think maybe you're following one of those false trails. " If Bagman wasn't conjuering the Dark Mark. . . " ? Bart Jr. admits he did it himself, doesn't he? Under vertisirum?

Such was Winky's loyalty that she might have tried to make it look like she conjured the Dark Mark. She might have been stunned after Barty Jr. so he would have been unconscious. Even if she had only seconds, she could have summoned the wand to herself before she got hit.

[Wab]

Ive got a question, does the last name Bagman have a meaning? Or is it a common name in England?
Anyways, I don't think we'll see him again anytime soon. :eyebrows:

From dictionary.com: "A person who collects money, as for racketeers."

In the Australian usage it also means the person who is the go-between in corrupt deals.

[Merrymime]

Okay, everything Bagman did was to make him look suspicious. JKR was writing him to make us wonder what he was up to. I think maybe you're following one of those false trails. " If Bagman wasn't conjuering the Dark Mark. . . " ? Bart Jr. admits he did it himself, doesn't he? Under vertisirum?

Well, you could definately be right that she intentionally wrote Bagman for us to think it was him, but I'm still not completely sure. I think it could have been fake veritaserum (which we learned in OotP exists) that either Crouch Jr. or Crouch Sr. had put in Snape's office. Harry saw on the Marauder's map one of them (supposedly Crouch Jr.) in Snape's office. I know it's farfetched and chances are I'm wrong, but earlier in the thread I give quite a few reasons behind why I think this, so I won't go into them all again. But, I just think there were quite a few things within GOF that seemed odd; including even the theme that the ending conveyed. I'll explain.

Crouch Sr. was looked at by Harry, Ron and Hermione at least as mean and cruel for sending his son to Azkaban without a fair trial. Crouch Sr. did this with with others, as well, including Sirius. His son was petrified, shaking and screaming to his mother and father over and over that he didn't do it, however, Crouch Sr. disowned him in front of everyone ("You are no son of mine...I have no son!") This was heartless and cruel. But, after we see the ending we learn that Crouch Sr. actually did the right thing. He was right to have sent his son to Azkaban and he was right to have had no mercy. His son really was a horrible, eveil Death Eater.

But, then later, Crouch Sr. turned soft and took compassion on his dying wife...However, this turned out to be wrong. Crouch Sr. never should have taken mercy on his dying wife. He should have stayed cold, heartless and cruel, right? Then, his son would have stayed in Azkaban and all the troubles in GOF wouldn't have happened. Can you see my point in that the message seems a bit off? This is just one of the reasons I'm not totally convinced that Crouch Jr. was the faithful servant. I'm holding by a thread, but still think it might have been a set-up and Bagman went back to Voldemort...not just running away from the Goblins.

Such was Winky's loyalty that she might have tried to make it look like she conjured the Dark Mark. She might have been stunned after Barty Jr. so he would have been unconscious. Even if she had only seconds, she could have summoned the wand to herself before she got hit.

Perhaps, but she gasped when she saw the Dark Mark in the sky; she was terrified during the whole scene; and she kept telling them over and over that she did not conjure the Dark Mark or use the wand. Wouldn't she have just confessed that she had done it if her aim was to make it look like she conjuered it?

But, for your sake, she perhaps could have automatically grabbed it from him at the last second after he did the spell so that he would not be able to do anything else; automatically knowing that he should not have a wand. But, I don't think she would have thought that during a moment when there are stunning spells flying in every which direction. If you had a few seconds, that's what you would be concerned about. I don't know.

[mr.berts'n'botts]

i'm betting that we'll see him around b4 the 7th book ends.
yay?
hah i don't realli care abouts him

[Oreo112]

I just want to recap on everything that I've found about Ludo (in regards to being a Death Eater):

Okay, so what's the deal with Ludo? Let's take a trip back to GoF, shall we? In the paperback version on page 90, Ludo is talking with the Weasleys, Harry and Hermione before the World Cup begins. Mr. Crouch appears and says "I've been looking for you everywhere. Where was Ludo? Was he just screwing around like normal. My first response would be, "Of course. It's Ludo Bagman. He was just running around, talking to people, having fun."

HOWEVER, a few hours later, after the Muggle torturing had begun, Harry, Ron, and Hermione were off in a secluded part in the woods. No one was near them. All of a sudden, they hear footsteps. It's Ludo. What was he doing in the woods, by himself? In the middle of nowhere? And when he appears, Harry notes that "a great change had come over Bagman. He no longer looked buoyant and rosy-faced; there was no more spring in his step. He looked very white and strained." Ludo didn't know anything bad was going on - so why was he so white and strained? THEN, when Ron told him what was going on with the Muggles, Ludo said, "**** them" and looked quite distracted. The way he said it almost appears as if he knew exactly what was going on, who was involved, and why they were doing it. That they had possibly promised him nothing like that would happen.

The, after the Dark Mark had appeared and all of the Ministry wizards and witches showed up almost immediately, Ludo was nowhere to be seen. Where was he? He wasn't trying to help the Muggles, because the Death Eaters disbanded and Apparated right after the Dark Mark appeared. So what was he doing? He showed up a good 5-10 minutes after all of the others did, looking "breathless and disoriented". After he shows up, he distracts the others by questioning Mr. Crouch on where he had been during the match. No one even took note of his absence.

And I know that many people feel that when Winky said Ludo was a "bad man" and Mr. Crouch didn't like him, it was because he had been tried as a Death Eater. HOWEVER, right after saying this, Winky says how she'll never reveal her master's secrets. Did Mr. Crouch know something about Ludo that he had kept hidden from the Ministry? And if he had, why did he?

I wonder if Ludo wasn't one of the Death Eaters Voldemort walked by in the graveyard in GoF...we were told that Ludo ran away from the goblins at the end of the book. But do we know that for sure? How do we know he wasn't running to his master? We don't know who the Death Eaters who Voldemort walked by were - he easily could have been one of them.

In GoF on pg. 450 (paperback), Rita Skeeter says about Ludo, "...he was always a bad liar..." What was she referring to? When did he lie? And he was either caught lying or else some people knew he was lying, even though he got away with it. What did he lie about? Being a Death Eater? Something else?

[Liselle]

AffectedMangoO, if you want to know what Bagman means or Ludo means, check the previous page, I have posted meanings on both of them


Oreo112, thats interesting re-cap alright. Have we decided where we stand on this? Bagman death eater or not? I'm going for deatheater myself

[Nephel]

I just want to recap on everything that I've found about Ludo (in regards to being a Death Eater):

Okay, so what's the deal with Ludo? Let's take a trip back to GoF, shall we? In the paperback version on page 90, Ludo is talking with the Weasleys, Harry and Hermione before the World Cup begins. Mr. Crouch appears and says "I've been looking for you everywhere. Where was Ludo? Was he just screwing around like normal. My first response would be, "Of course. It's Ludo Bagman. He was just running around, talking to people, having fun."

HOWEVER, a few hours later, after the Muggle torturing had begun, Harry, Ron, and Hermione were off in a secluded part in the woods. No one was near them. All of a sudden, they hear footsteps. It's Ludo. What was he doing in the woods, by himself? In the middle of nowhere? And when he appears, Harry notes that "a great change had come over Bagman. He no longer looked buoyant and rosy-faced; there was no more spring in his step. He looked very white and strained." Ludo didn't know anything bad was going on - so why was he so white and strained? THEN, when Ron told him what was going on with the Muggles, Ludo said, "**** them" and looked quite distracted. The way he said it almost appears as if he knew exactly what was going on, who was involved, and why they were doing it. That they had possibly promised him nothing like that would happen.


That is what I was thinking. It makes it look like his 'boyish' behaviour is an act. Why was he in the woods? Who else do we know that could have been in the woods with him? Crouch JNR? Funnily enough, who turns up in the next part of the chapter, but Crouch JNR.


The, after the Dark Mark had appeared and all of the Ministry wizards and witches showed up almost immediately, Ludo was nowhere to be seen. Where was he? He wasn't trying to help the Muggles, because the Death Eaters disbanded and Apparated right after the Dark Mark appeared. So what was he doing? He showed up a good 5-10 minutes after all of the others did, looking "breathless and disoriented". After he shows up, he distracts the others by questioning Mr. Crouch on where he had been during the match. No one even took note of his absence.


If you ask me, I 'd say he was involved in helping Crouch JNR fight the Imperius Curse


And I know that many people feel that when Winky said Ludo was a "bad man" and Mr. Crouch didn't like him, it was because he had been tried as a Death Eater. HOWEVER, right after saying this, Winky says how she'll never reveal her master's secrets. Did Mr. Crouch know something about Ludo that he had kept hidden from the Ministry? And if he had, why did he?


This ties in with my above statement. Ludo helped Crouch JNR. Crouch SNR knew this, but kept is secret. The question is why.


I wonder if Ludo wasn't one of the Death Eaters Voldemort walked by in the graveyard in GoF...we were told that Ludo ran away from the goblins at the end of the book. But do we know that for sure? How do we know he wasn't running to his master? We don't know who the Death Eaters who Voldemort walked by were - he easily could have been one of them.


Definately dodgy. We never hear the goblins demanding gold. He could have been trying to draw them over to Lord Voldemort's side. There were quite a few disappearances at the end of GoF, Bagman, Karkaroff, Snape. They could have all gone to the graveyard, though Snape is allowed to arrive late, because Lord Voldemoret knows you can't apparate inside Hogwarts.


In GoF on pg. 450 (paperback), Rita Skeeter says about Ludo, "...he was always a bad liar..." What was she referring to? When did he lie? And he was either caught lying or else some people knew he was lying, even though he got away with it. What did he lie about? Being a Death Eater? Something else?

I think this has something to do with his trail, where he was accused of passing on information to the dark side. This, I think, is the biggest clue to his identity- he was cleared of the court, not because he was found innocent, but because he played well in the Quidditch Match.

Did you know Fleur DeLacour is an Anagram of = Fear Cruel Ludo.

Sorry for posting my 'life story', I haven't posted in a while.

[Merrymime]

Great thoughts, Oreo!!!!!! Those are all my thoughts exactly. I don't trust Ludo one bit. He's definately a death eater. Just like Nephel said, he got off just because he was this great Quidditch player, so I don't buy it one bit. This whole "I'm such a stupid idiot" routine is nothing but that...a routine. In addition with what you said, did you ever wonder why Ludo wouldn't send anyone to look for Bertha even when he (and many others too, actually) knew that she was in the exact place where Voldemort was rumored to be...coincidence? I don't think so. And let's not forget, Ludo was the one that got Arthur the seats in the top box. I still even think he could have been the faithful servant and Crouch Jnr. was being used by him all along. That's why the Dementor came and killed him so quickly. I know that Ludo was supossedly the red-hering, but he fits in every situation so perfectly and Crouch Jr. just didn't seem like he'd be such a great Death Eater to me.

Crouch Jr. was only 18 or 19 when he was tried as a Death Eater. And this was all after Harry had gotten his scar, because it was shortly after Sirius had gone to Azkaban. So Crouch Jr. couldn't have been a Death Eater for long before that, because he was so young. And Voldemort had thought up his plan for the use of "his faithful servant" before the Quidditch World Cup and before he ever went to pick up Crouch Jr. All Voldemort had to go on was what he had known about Crouch Jr. before he disappeared and what Bertha had told him. I don't know. It just seems weird that Voldemort could have had so much faith in Crouch Jr. Crouch Jr. would have had to have been really smart and evil when he was perhaps even still in school.

Either Crouch Jr. or Sr. was in Snape's office and could easily have switched out his Veritaserum with fake Veritaserum. Anyway, I'm not so sure about whether Ludo was really the faithful servant inside Hogwarts or not, but I'm pretty sure he was a Death Eater.

Anyway, I've said most of this stuff in earlier posts on this thread, I know, but oh well. :) Welcome to the boards, Oreo.

Oh, and as Liselle has pointed out earilier in the thread, Ludovic means "devotee of the Lord." Hmmmmmmmmmm.

[Nephel]

Either Crouch Jr. or Sr. was in Snape's office and could easily have switched out his Veritaserum with fake Veritaserum. Anyway, I'm not so sure about whether Ludo was really the faithful servant inside Hogwarts or not, but I'm pretty sure he was a Death Eater.


:wow: Wow. Nice idea, I never thought of that. Definately dodgy goings on with Crouch/SNR/JNR and Bagman.

[Liselle]

Cheers MerryMime....its nice to have someone agree with me for a change! It doesn't happen often enough! :tu:

[Merrymime]

:tu: No problem, Liselle. Anytime. I just think there still has to be something happen with Ludo. That whole fourth book was not tied up so easily. It was too weird how Ludo happened to disappear at the same time Voldemort comes back in his body. And it was too weird how the Dementor killed Crouch Jr. so quick and easily. The Dementors are on Voldemort's side. Would they really kill Voldemort's most faithful servant so quick? It smells fishy.

And, the thing about Crouch Sr. being murdered, transfigured into a bone and buried outside Hagrid's hut is an odd little tidbit of information, too. Something has to come about with that, I believe. Surely Fang's gonna dig up that bone or something and perhaps something will be found out about Crouch Jr's testimony not being true or something. I don't know.

I know some of this stuff is talked about in the Three Missing Death Eaters thread and I'm in the process of reading that thread, too. I'm just not through with it, yet. I think I'm only on page 6 or something like that. The long threads I tend to read in stages. :)

[Nephel]

Basically, Ludo is nowhere to be seen after the portkey transportation, so he could have disappeared the same time as LV summoned the DE's with the dark mark tattoo.
About the bone, I don't know what to make of it except the on;y reason bones are used is for the resscurection spell 'Bone of thy Father, flesh of servant and blood of foe.' Unless someone is going to use the transfigured bone to restore Crouch Jnr :huh:
During the interrogation scene when they administer the 'Veritaserum', it could be fake Veritserum. Crouch Jnr was searching Snape's office, but what for? It is possible he could have switched Snape's Veritaserum, which means he lied about his part in Harry's kidnap, which means that there is someone else involved.

[Pazarius]

And it was too weird how the Dementor killed Crouch Jr. so quick and easily. The Dementors are on Voldemort's side. Would they really kill Voldemort's most faithful servant so quick? It smells fishy.


When Crouch Jr. is killed the Dementors are not already on Voldemort's side, Dumbledore only says that they will not remain loyal to Fudge and the Ministry as Voldemort can offer more, he will allow them to use their abilities on wizards much more freely.

Lord Voldemort has only just been restored, he has not had time to recruit the Dementors, although as doing so will free his brethren from Azkaban, Dumbledore knows recruiting them will be a high priority for Voldemort.

As we have seen before when the Dementors attempt to kiss Harry in PoA, the control the Ministry of Magic has on the Dementors is tenuous at best. The Dementor kills Crouch Jr. because it WANTS to, and thinks it will be allowed because it has been told that Crouch is a criminal, like Sirius.

The dementors probably join Voldemort at the time of the prison break in OoTP.

[zoeydsngwrtr]

1) I always figured that Winky had the wand in her hand because she was trying to get it away from Crouch Jr.
2) Snape was carrying the Veritaserum around in his pocket. I'm working on re-readin GOF (purposly slower this time) and last night I was reading about the second task. Remember from the scene (sorry I do not have my book with me) where they go to potions, and get caught reading the story about Hermiane in witch weekly. Snape puts Harry alone at the desk just in front of him and under his breath hisses insults at Harry, then he wisks it out and says he could prove that Harry stole the gillyweed, it didn't seem that planned really that he had it there, it was as if he was carrying it around for a reason, mabye he didn't want his secrets spilled.

I definatly think there is more to Ludo Bagman though. I've been thinking that he is the cowardly one of the three missing DE's but there are five that I thought should be mentioned and aren't, so he could easily be in the crowd, I think we are going to have to watch out for more of Ludo

[Liselle]

Basically, Ludo is nowhere to be seen after the portkey transportation, so he could have disappeared the same time as LV summoned the DE's with the dark mark tattoo.
About the bone, I don't know what to make of it except the on;y reason bones are used is for the resscurection spell 'Bone of thy Father, flesh of servant and blood of foe.' Unless someone is going to use the transfigured bone to restore Crouch Jnr :huh:

During the interrogation scene when they administer the 'Veritaserum', it could be fake Veritserum. Crouch Jnr was searching Snape's office, but what for? It is possible he could have switched Snape's Veritaserum, which means he lied about his part in Harry's kidnap, which means that there is someone else involved.


I just don't see why fake veritaserum would have been necessary at that point, and anyway Crouch spilled his guts out....he told us everything so either the serum was real or Crouch was in some sort of delirium. It is interesting to speculate that there could be someone other than Crouch involved, it all could point back to Snape trying to cover his tracks maybe giving more than was needed if the serum was real....hmm

I agree though that the information about transfiguring his father to bone is strange, its juts dangling there really not telling us anything. Could Crouch Jr be restored? He's not actually dead, just soul free (just being a relative term....its a pretty large handicap!), if the spell that was performed on Voldie was performed on him, I wonder would he be restored.....I think thats outside the scope of this thread though...sorry for rambling :lol:

[Nephel]

I just don't see why fake veritaserum would have been necessary at that point, and anyway Crouch spilled his guts out....he told us everything so either the serum was real or Crouch was in some sort of delirium. It is interesting to speculate that there could be someone other than Crouch involved, it all could point back to Snape trying to cover his tracks maybe giving more than was needed if the serum was real....hmm

I agree though that the information about transfiguring his father to bone is strange, its juts dangling there really not telling us anything. Could Crouch Jr be restored? He's not actually dead, just soul free (just being a relative term....its a pretty large handicap!), if the spell that was performed on Voldie was performed on him, I wonder would he be restored.....I think thats outside the scope of this thread though...sorry for rambling :lol:

To be honest, I think transfiguring Crouch Snr into a bone made it easier for Crouch Jnr to bury him.
It's kinda fishy though, what animal burys bones? A dog. Could this mean anything? Conected to Sirius? Dogs are loyal so, loyality to Voldemort :p

[Discordia]

Well if the serum was fake than we'd have atleast learned something of it by now and the stories match up. Also if the serum was fake it would kind of leave a hole in the story.

[jordmundt6]

I posted this on another thread and thought it might be relevant here:

Ludo didn't steal the wand, Crouch Jr. did. Ludo didn't fire the Mark, Crouch Jr. did. When Ludo heard there was an uproar at the campsite, he didn't think DEs, he thought GOBLINS. Why? He'd just paid his debt in leprechaun gold and right about the time that the uproar broke out, the leprechaun gold would have vanished--translation ANGRY goblins. That's where he went, that's what he thought was going on. He was completely thrown for a loop by the Mark and by the person accused of casting it.

Now something else--When Amos reported what they found, he said that the wand was next to Winky. I think Amos just got carried away with his interrogation and overstated his facts hoping to get a confession. To be honest, although his grief at his son's death is heart-breaking, before that I didn't like him at all.

[Jane Granger]

I wonder if Ludo wasn't one of the Death Eaters Voldemort walked by in the graveyard in GoF...we were told that Ludo ran away from the goblins at the end of the book. But do we know that for sure? How do we know he wasn't running to his master? We don't know who the Death Eaters who Voldemort walked by were - he easily could have been one of them.


I don't think LB was one of the DEs Voldy walked by.

According to George Weasley:


"The goblins play as dirty as him. They say you drew with Diggory, and Bagman was betting you'd win outright. So Bagman had to run for it. He did run for it right after the third task."


I don't think goblins openly came to tournament judge's table and
discussed the bet with LB, when HP & CD just disappeared and the
tournament was not officially over yet. And I don't think LB,
being a judge & commentator of the tournament, could find a good
excuse to leave the ground shortly after HP&CD disappeared -- again,
when the tournament was not officially over yet.

I take George's "right after the third task" to mean after it is really over
--probably during the chaos after HP came back.

[Oreo112]

What would the fake veritasium do? Make him lie? I don't understand the significance of it...

[Marie Lexis]

I think that he might be a Death Eater. I mean everything you said is evidence that he is.

[Remus Black]

Wait a moment....Ludo was the announcer for the third task. Voldemort touched the Dark Mark and called his Death Eaters to him....how could he have gone without anyone noticing? I think he's just a gambler.

[Elrod Ubramowic]

He is not mentioned in Voldemort's circle at the end of GoF, but of course you can't apparate from the grounds of Hogwarts. BUT, on the train home in GoF, when Fred and George explain about the bet with Bagman, and about Bagman's bet on Harry to win the triwizard tournament, George describes how Bagman had to flee the goblins after the 3rd task: "So Bagman had to run for it. He did run for it right after the third task." It is certainly possible that he ran for it, not only to escape the goblins, but in order to make a slightly late appearance at the side of Voldemort.

Lately, I've been inclined to think Bagman was the DE who LV described to have run away, and Karkaroff is the one who has left LV's service forever. The event that makes me think this is after the Dark Mark had been conjured at the Quidditch World Cup Bagman apparates to the site just a little bit later than everyone else. Rather than being prepared to fight DE's he appears confused by the crowd there. I'm thinking Bagman is just dumb enough to have taken the Dark Mark as a summons of DE's by LV to which he reluctantly arrived.

[Gwenog Jones]

Great post Oreo, my thoughts exactly.

HOWEVER, a few hours later, after the Muggle torturing had begun, Harry, Ron, and Hermione were off in a secluded part in the woods. No one was near them. All of a sudden, they hear footsteps. It's Ludo. What was he doing in the woods, by himself? In the middle of nowhere? And when he appears, Harry notes that "a great change had come over Bagman. He no longer looked buoyant and rosy-faced; there was no more spring in his step. He looked very white and strained."

The second time I read GoF this stuck out for me. He was by himself, in the woods. Why was he so strained? It doesn't make any sense. He didn't even know anything was going on yet. This really makes me think that Ludo was very involved in helping Crouch Jr.

The, after the Dark Mark had appeared and all of the Ministry wizards and witches showed up almost immediately, Ludo was nowhere to be seen. Where was he? He wasn't trying to help the Muggles, because the Death Eaters disbanded and Apparated right after the Dark Mark appeared. So what was he doing? He showed up a good 5-10 minutes after all of the others did, looking "breathless and disoriented"

I think he was with Crouch Jr, making sure he was alright and everything was going according to plan. He was breathless because he realized that the Ministry wizards would be nearby and they would be looking for him, so he had to hurry up and find everyone.

In GoF on pg. 450 (paperback), Rita Skeeter says about Ludo, "...he was always a bad liar..." What was she referring to? When did he lie? And he was either caught lying or else some people knew he was lying, even though he got away with it. What did he lie about? Being a Death Eater? Something else?
I think he was a bad liar when he lied about being a death eater. He only got off because of his fame as a beater. However, there could be something else.. something more. Maybe Rita Skeeter knows what Ludo is up too, since she could have easily been buzzing around him in GoF.

[soccergoddess24]

For some reason I just happen to think of Ludo today, so I thought I would do a search and see what came up! I really like phoenixsong’s theory: I am not a big fan of the "everybody and their brother is an animagus" type theorizing, but when you said this^, something just clicked about the wasp buzzing around during Harry's O.W.L. exam - Bagman's Winbourne Wasps robes are repeatedly emphasized.
I actually think that could work! But for some reason I don’t remember a wasp..well vaguely…hm…I agree that everyone thinking everyone’s an animagus is pretty annoying, but this one does seem to have a tad more evidence than some I’ve read…I also find them annoying lol…but this one isn’t real annoying, it makes me ponder:eyebrows:

So if Ludo IS an animagus, maybe he turned into a wasp to keep an eye on Harry and make sure he was coming along ok with his tasks.

Ok, 2 theories…1. Ludo is nothing more than what we’ve seen, and is a pretty good person except for the minor things.
2. He’s with Voldemort for some reason, and wanted to help Harry get through the tasks for 2 reasons…1.to win the bet and 2. to get Harry to Voldmort

I think that his real character is in the middle of those 2 theories, and hopefully in the next book we’ll find out more!

[whizbang121]

Okay, after GoF I bought the line that Ludo Bagman was just a bit of an idiot, and that his connection with LV was only accidental, that he had been tricked by Augustus Rookwood. But after reading OotP, and seeing the mention of Bagman at least twice (once when Bill says that the head goblin is still mad that the ministry isn't punishing Bagman, and again during Harry's hearing, when Fudge describes long odds as (paraphrased) "Even Bagman wouldn't bet on that one"), I wonder if we mightn't see him again, and if so, in what connection? Does Rita Skeeter know more about him then the Rookwood incident (I know things about Ludo Bagman that would make your hair curl...not that it needs it)? And Winky (Ludo Bagman is a bad, bad wizard...)?
Bagman, like Wormtail, doesn't show up in OotP. Interesting character. I wonder if he's an animagus, too?

[jordmundt6]

Could he be the mysterious wasp buzzing about the History of Magic OWL and then flitting back to report success to Voldy? Perhaps--it'd make for great irony--except he'd be poor-man's Wormtail, or, even worse, poor-man's Crouch Jr. JKR is many things but one thing she tries to be is endlessly imaginative about her villains. I think at some point we have to accept that some poeple are just self-centered (Lockhart), some people are just prejudiced (Umbridge), and some people are just stupid (Bagman) or we'll end up with migraines and no cure.

P.S. Hi, Whizbang! I'm back--for the moment.;)

And Gwenog--We GOT an explanation for why Ludo was so white and strained. He'd just pulled probably the biggest grift of the century paying off hundreds of thousands of Galleons of debt and gambling pool with Leprechaun gold and goblins get cranky when people try to cheat them (I mean Harry passed them seconds before their gold disappeared, they were still cackling over their haul when he passed them, remember? This is explained very well and though the wasp thing sounds possible, I just don't buy him as involved with Crouch Jr. There's a perfectly reasonable and very fleshed out explanation with actual facts (not Ron's usual flights of fancy) to explain Bagman's behavior.

[whizbang121]

jordmundt6! Welcome back!
The wasp in the exam room............

Interesting.

[oryon]

So if Ludo IS an animagus, maybe he turned into a wasp to keep an eye on Harry and make sure he was coming along ok with his tasks.

Ok, 2 theories…1. Ludo is nothing more than what we’ve seen, and is a pretty good person except for the minor things.
2. He’s with Voldemort for some reason, and wanted to help Harry get through the tasks for 2 reasons…1.to win the bet and 2. to get Harry to Voldmort

I`ve always thought that the buzzing was made by Rita`s bug when she landed on the window.

So i`ve entered here because I`ve posted recently a new thread about Ludo but I missed this one (some objective reasons) and thought to talk to you about Ludo`s caracter: is he a great kwiddich player or a simple DE who just wanted more and thought that he could get more power by becoming a DE?Or something between?

What do you think?

[mareesa]

Personally, I think Ludo's a bit too dim to be an animagus.
I don't know about the Gaelic translation of Ludo. I found the names to be Teutonic.
Ludovic and his brother, Otto, are both Teutonic (germanic) names prevalent in Austro-Hungarian (Holy Roman Empire).
Ludovic (Ludwig): famous warrior (perhaps the gaelic translation could mean "knight": the Teutonic knights were in the service of the Holy Roman Emporer)
Otto (Odo): Wealthy; name of the Kings

Interestingly, King Ludovic I de Anjou began the construction of Bran Castle in Romania in 1377. Bran Castle was the future home of Vlad Tepes, otherwise known as Dracula.

Well, the first names certainly seem at odds with their last name. But the fact that both are Germanic (and eastern European) Royalty names, makes me wonder a little about their ancestry. Could it be possible that the Bagmans have relatives living in, say, Albania? What was their mother's surname? I wouldn't be surprised to find out that Ludo went into hiding somewhere east of Germany's border at the end of GoF. It has always made me curious that Vapormort made a pilgrimage to Albania. Why? Perhaps he went to see a guy about a vampire? I wonder if in Albania, the Bagman's relatives refused to help Vapormort. Albania: close to Transylvannia (Romania)? Another potential reason for Bagman to be the "one too cowardly to return". :huh:

The fact that we know Ludo has a brother, also into criminal activity (lawnmower with unusual properties), makes one think that their upbringing was dodgy. Otto could be the smarter of the two since his name is kingly and Ludo's is just a "warrior"; or supporter of the king. Wonder if he'll get more screen time next two books.

[Snidget66]

Wait wasn't Ludo Bagman a deatheater or something? Couldn't he be the missing death eater that Voldemort said would be killed?

[mareesa]

Wait wasn't Ludo Bagman a deatheater or something? Couldn't he be the missing death eater that Voldemort said would be killed?
That is what's up for debate in this thread. Other theories for this candidate is Snape, Karkaroff, or someone we don't know is a DE. This thread also proposes Ludo is the one who is too "cowardly" to return whom Voldemort said will "pay". I'd suggest reading some of the earlier posts. Good stuff for thought. We just don't know, since he's disappeared from book 5.

[Simes]

I'm intrigued by this. Does no-one believe Ludo is a member of the Order? After what JKR mentioned on her site..?


Section: Rumours
The Order of the Phoenix communicates using chocolate frog cards

This is such a great idea that I was in two minds whether to shoot it down; however, a chocolate frog card, or any object that would have to be remembered and carried on the person, would always be vulnerable to loss, destruction or trickery. The Order communicates in a way that requires nothing but a wand. You saw the Order’s method of communication in use even before you knew about the existence of the Order; it was employed by an Order member.

One of the only ways a wand is used to communicate sound is when Ludo Bagman to greet the crowd at the Quidditch World Cup...

p. 93, GoF, UK Edition...
...Ludo whipped out his wand, directed it at his own throat and said 'Sonorus!' and then spoke over the roar of sound that was now filling the packed stadium; his voice echoed over them, booming into every corner of the stands: 'Ladies and gentlemen ... welcome! Welcome to the final of the four hundred and twenty-second Quidditch World Cup!'

...perhaps theres a different spell to just speak to one wand (like Sonorus Dumbledore!)..and the fact that JKR mentions that "it was employed by another order member" leads me to believe, no matter what his traits, he is on the side of good.

[hgrwfan]

Originally posted by Snidget66
Wait wasn't Ludo Bagman a deatheater or something? Couldn't he be the missing death eater that Voldemort said would be killed?


I thought Voldemort was talking about Karkaroff being the missing DE that would be killed.

[mareesa]

I thought Voldemort was talking about Karkaroff being the missing DE that would be killed.
This thread goes extensively into that if you haven't checked it out already:
Three Missing Death Eaters (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=22246&highlight=Missing+Death+eaters). And yes, he is certainly one of the prime suspects.

[Sheep]

First off, I think that another animagus at the moment would be one too many... but who knows.
However, there is definitely something more about Ludo. As it has been mentioned before, the episode in the forest during the World Champs was more than just strange to my mind. There is some connection between Bagman and Crouches. The strangest thing about the three of them is that they appear in year4 and they disappear in book4. To my mind this storyline with the three of them should be developped furher. What leads me to this opinion:
1) Fudges switch of attitude at the end of book4. What are the real reasons for it? Why does he make the dementor kiss Crouch Jr? Could there be another Polyjuice Potion? Could the Fudge we see in the end of year4 and in year5 be actually Bagman OR Crouch Sr?
2) Percy's new post at MOM. Why would anyone want him to continue to work for MOM after the trouble with Crouch? What is more, why would he become senior assistent of the Minister himself? To my mind, it could go in a way together with point1^
3) Crouch's Jr explanation about his father' s death. Well, well... if we would believe it to be truth, than a bone impersonating Crouch Sr's body should be found in Hagrid' s garden... Here we come to the question if the Veritaserum given by Snape was real. In fact, he' s not allowed to keep Veritaserum, he says himself in book4, and he proves that he has fake Veritaserum in book 5 when he gives it to Umbridge... Now what if Snape lied to DD?
4) To go on, Bagman disappears in the end of GOF and that' s when the "New Fudge" appears.

Ok, it might sound like total nonsense. Up to you to judge...

[papos_rane]

its because he probably went to the dark side with voldemort.