Pensieve Theory/Question

[RJLupin]

Ok a Pensieve has your memories extracted form your head and put into the bowl type thing, whatever it is. Now, if you die your memories are already extracted and put inside so would you still be able to see those memories if someone was to look at them? Like if Harry was to find a pensieve his father owned if he had one, could Harry look inside like he was able to with Dumbledores and Snapes? I think it's and interesting theory, hopefully it wasn't brought up already, if it was feel free to move this or close it.

[SiouxsiesCure]

That's an interesting thought...I think that you would still be able to see the memories, since they were extracted before the person died. I don't think the person being dead has anything to do with not being able to see their memories.

[SirCadogan]

Is there more than one Pensieve? I always thought it was a unique item owned by Dumbledore. I know it doesn't mention a second pensieve but I think there is only one ever created. That would be cool, though, for Harry to see James' memories. I rather like the 'pensieve' scenes.

[Synthetic]

This topic belongs in the Theories Section. Not the book five discussion area. Maybe then more people will reply...good theory though. I think the memories disappear once a person dies.

[krazechika]

This topic belongs in the Theories Section. Not the book five discussion area. Maybe then more people will reply...good theory though. I think the memories disappear once a person dies.


I dont think so.Just becuz the person is gone doesnt mean that memories tooken from it will be.Memories last, horrible or not but they last.

[Synthetic]

but the memories belong to the person who died, the pensive is like a second brain that stores memories that can be extracted and imported at any time, and when a person dies who is left to think these thoughts? I believe that the thoughts no longer exsist.

[JenJen]

I think that if someone stored their memories in a pensieve, people could access them, even after the person died. I always imagined it as something like a photo album for memories.

[Fortescue]

I'm guessing that the memories could still be accessed because the person in question didn't have them when he/she died. I think if there was a Pensieve with Lily or James' memories, it would be a cool thing to see. Somehow, though, I don't think Rowling is going to use this particular theory, though, although it is a good one.

[rayrayjohanna]

I've thought that the memories reside in the brain and are taken out only for
study and comparison. Snape removed those three threads (only one of which
Harry got to see) each time they had occlumency. He must have put them back
once they were finished.

It's an interesting questions as to whether the memories, stored outside of the
brain in "pensieve format", would continue to exist if the person who experienced
them had died. I wonder if the Department of Mysteries studies such things,
especially in the Brain room.

[phoenixsong]

It really is a lovely thought, RJLupin. I hadn't really considered it before. It seems logical that any thoughts that the witch/wizard had in the pensieve at the time of her/his death would remain there and still be accessible. Perhaps a particularly old pensieve might be imbued with the memories of its former owners.

While I doubt that there are many pensieves in circulation, I don't think Dumbledore is the only one to possess one. But I don't really expect to see one that had belonged to James and/or Lily.

[GrangerGal]

OK now for another question along the same lines. If I take out my memories and something happens to the penseive storing them, do I forget those memories? If so that could be trouble!

[tintinboy]

OK now for another question along the same lines. If I take out my memories and something happens to the penseive storing them, do I forget those memories? If so that could be trouble!

Yes, because they are no longer in your head.

[phoenixsong]

OK now for another question along the same lines. If I take out my memories and something happens to the penseive storing them, do I forget those memories? If so that could be trouble!
Yes, but it could also be useful: if you have extracted those memories yourself, they are not available to someone else trying to access them using legilmency or veritaserum.

But this digression from the original question probably belongs in the more general discussion of the pensieve. Sorry!

[moon781]

i would think that the memories stay in the pensieve because they were removed before death and are no longer part of the person once removed

i have a kind of related question (sorry if this is the wrong place to ask) do dumbledore and snape have separate pensieves or is it one they are sharing?

[a1waysthedreamer]

the memories belong to the person who died, but because they weren't inside the person when he/she died, they should be visible to other people.

[Hazelnutt1230]

I was thinking along the same lines, moon781. Harry referred to it as Dumbledore's Pensive. "Harry's attention was drawn toward the desk, however, where a shallow stone basin engraved with runes and symbols lay in a pool of candlelight. Harry reconized it at once-Dumbledore's pensive". pg 529 US version. But I don't think they are sharing one. I think that it is a very rare item just like Invisibility cloaks are.

[GryffindorKeeper]

I think that the memories would stay in the pensieve after the person died since the pensieve is sort of like a floppy disk storing data that originally came from the hard drive (sorry about the computer analogy but it's the best one I could come up with). If you remove the memories before death, then that means they are no longer in the person but in the pensieve, correct?

But I can't see the person dying having no effect at all on that person's memories. The memories in a pensieve are more personal than portraits. The portraits are representations of people, their personalities. While a person's memories essentially defines them. Maybe the memories stored in the pensieve require energy and are drawing this force or whatever it is from the living person. If the person dies, maybe the memories will begin to lose juice and start to fade?

And in response to moon781, at first, when I read the scene where Harry sees the Pensieve in Snape's office, I thought it was the same one. I don't think there's actually anything written that tells us otherwise. However, I personally think that it's kind of nasty if they were using the same one. Why would you want your memories mixing around with someone else's? And what if you accidentally put someone else's memory back into your own head? That would be awkward and pretty gross.

Sorry if this is off-topic for this forum/thread

Jennifer

[Hammi]

I think that if a person dies, even if the memories were extracted, they will go with them, wherever the sole goes. I mean, memories and expieriences are what makes a person. If a person memories remain, how can a person ever be truly dead.

[A_Reck]

I also really like the pensieve scenes, and would love to find out more about Snape, Dumbledore, James, Lily, Sirius, Lupin, Voldemort, Lucious, or anyone else that way. I dont think that the memories go away after you die. If you took them out of your mind, why would they vanish from a bowl?

[LESTRANGEMUSTDIE]

hm... im wondering what a pensieve is without any thoughts... i mean, is it just a stone basin? and if so, why not just store thoughts in any old container?

edit: "This topic belongs in the Theories Section. Not the book five discussion area. Maybe then more people will reply..."

this thread is in the theories section. i think. *looks around*... yeah, i think it is.

[Mad I]

I definitly think that you can still see the memories of people who have died, but I don't think that we will see any of this because I think that the Pensieve is extremely rare, if not unique to Dumbledore.

[YouKnowWho]

I think there are more pensives on the world...

But i don't think you can see death means thougt... Every time someone uses the pensieve the person puts back the thougt in his head. So you could only see a death man's thougt if a person was killed when using the pensieve, when he was just about to put the thougt back in his head..

[phoenixsong]

But i don't think you can see death means thougt... Every time someone uses the pensieve the person puts back the thougt in his head. So you could only see a death man's thougt if a person was killed when using the pensieve, when he was just about to put the thougt back in his head..
I don't think that a person has to put a thought back in their head after putting it in the pensieve. While it is useful for viewing one's memories and making connections between them, it may have other uses, as when we saw Snape storing his there to keep them away from Harry. Some of us think that Snape might be using it to store memories that he wants to keep away from Voldemort, things that might give him away were Voldemort to access them using legilimency. So the pensieve could be used for more long-term storage as well.

[SirCadogan]

I definitly think that you can still see the memories of people who have died, but I don't think that we will see any of this because I think that the Pensieve is extremely rare, if not unique to Dumbledore.

That's what I was playing at. I really think that there is only one, but JKR may prove me wrong.

[GrangerGal]

OK if I lose my memories if I accidently tip over the penseive or someone destroys them than that isn't something I would want to do. And how do you remember to which memories you took out? DD said he uses it to take out memories to see common threads that he couldnt see in his mind. Well how would he know that there is a memory in there that would match up with another one spur of the moment like he did when he took out one in his office in GoF. OK I am being silly now but I don't get it. I love the idea but how do you know what is in there! How did Snape know Harry saw that specific horrible thing that happened to him?

[xlupin_loverx]

Ok a Pensieve has your memories extracted form your head and put into the bowl type thing, whatever it is. Now, if you die your memories are already extracted and put inside so would you still be able to see those memories if someone was to look at them? Like if Harry was to find a pensieve his father owned if he had one, could Harry look inside like he was able to with Dumbledores and Snapes? I think it's and interesting theory, hopefully it wasn't brought up already, if it was feel free to move this or close it.

That's an intriguing notion. And it makes sense. I hadn't thought of that at all. Hmm. Now JKR just needs to tell us more about pensieves.

[phoenixsong]

OK if I lose my memories if I accidently tip over the penseive or someone destroys them than that isn't something I would want to do. And how do you remember to which memories you took out? DD said he uses it to take out memories to see common threads that he couldnt see in his mind. Well how would he know that there is a memory in there that would match up with another one spur of the moment like he did when he took out one in his office in GoF. OK I am being silly now but I don't get it. I love the idea but how do you know what is in there! How did Snape know Harry saw that specific horrible thing that happened to him?
Uh, can't you just look in yourself to see what's in there?

[moon781]

sooo many questions about pensieves maybe we are not supposed to read into it so much (or are we? jk always has us thinking)

snape saw harry at that moment b/c he could see him in that memory when he looked into the basin remember when dumbledore caught harry he was looking in and saw him

[Mad I]

There is no way that we will find that James had a Pensieve and now Harry can look at all of his memories because that would allow Harry to watch James thoughout his entire life and that would be lengthy. Also, someone would have said something to Harry by now that his dad had a Pensieve even if they didn't want Harry to look at it. Also, I am not sure but didn't the Pensieve that Snape used bear a striking resemblence to the one Dumbledore has? That would lead me to believe that there is only one or that it is extremely rare to have one (maybe they are very expensive or require difficult magic to create.)

[GryffindorKeeper]

OK if I lose my memories if I accidently tip over the penseive or someone destroys them than that isn't something I would want to do.
OK, that would really, really suck if you accidentally spilled your memories. I'm thinking there must be some sort of safeguard against that. Otherwise, the use of a Pensieve would be quite risky -- there's always the potential for spilling.

And how do you remember to which memories you took out? ... I love the idea but how do you know what is in there! How did Snape know Harry saw that specific horrible thing that happened to him?

Maybe you remember what you memories you took out? Yeah, that sounds odd. You took out the memory so how could you know which one was there? Maybe whatever is put into the Pensieve is like a carbon copy of the real memory in your head. Or maybe, you're left with an impression of a memory in your head when you take the memory out -- not a full memory but a shadow of one that lets you vaguely know/recognize which memory is missing from your brain.

And I think that even if Snape didn't know which memory Harry had been looking at, he'd be undeniably pissed. I think Snape probably took out multiple memories that he didn't want Harry seeing so no matter which one Harry did end up seeing, it's still one that he wouldn't have wanted to share.

[GrangerGal]

phoenixsong - "Uh, can't you just look in yourself to see what's in there?"

Not if it tips over. Isn't it in a liqud?

Also if you are referring to what I said about remembering memories I was thinking about when DD took out his memories in GoF. He was looking for patterns in his memories that he couldn't figure out in his mind and wanted to look at them from a fresh point of view. In GoF he takes one out and adds it without looking into the Pensieve first. So he already knew what memories or what type of memories were in there without checking. So I was asking if he knows the memories (remembers them) or if there is a way to keep track of which ones were in there. OK maybe I am thinking too much into this.

Now GryffindorKeeper you said "Maybe whatever is put into the Pensieve is like a carbon copy of the real memory in your head. Or maybe, you're left with an impression of a memory in your head when you take the memory out -- not a full memory but a shadow of one that lets you vaguely know/recognize which memory is missing from your brain."

I like this idea. Simple yet makes sense to me. Thank you!

[Somegirl]

That is intresting purhaps so. but i'm not sure because i think harry would have already tried it.

[GrangerGal]

What would have Harry tried?

[Pumpkin Juice]

I have a question concerning the pensieve. Why wouldn't Snape use a pensieve to store his worst memory so he wouldn't have to constantly be reminded of it every time he saw Harry? I'm sure he'd be a lot more pleasant if he didn't live with that memory in his head all the time and a pensieve would give him a nice option out of it. Store the pensieve there so he wouldn't have to keep remembering it. That's what I'd do.

Can memories be destroyed? If a pensieve breaks with your memories inside, do the memories die?

[whizbang121]

Ok a Pensieve has your memories extracted form your head and put into the bowl type thing, whatever it is. Now, if you die your memories are already extracted and put inside so would you still be able to see those memories if someone was to look at them? Like if Harry was to find a pensieve his father owned if he had one, could Harry look inside like he was able to with Dumbledores and Snapes? I think it's and interesting theory, hopefully it wasn't brought up already, if it was feel free to move this or close it.
It is interesting. I don't remember seeing the memory of a deceased person, yet, unless photos and portraits are similar.

[oryon]

An other interesting problem! How come Harry didn`t use Dumbledore`s Pensieve to proove to the magical people (and to Cornelius Fudge) that Voldemort did come back. He could have extracted his memories about that night and so proove that he isn`t joking. Think about this, it could be important!

[whizbang121]

It's possible that Dumbledore's pensieve, the only one we've seen so far, is not widely known about or understood.

[filius]

I just reliased this. If you take the memories out of your head, you will not think about them anymore. You will not remember what is in the pensieve. Other wise, what use is it? Could it be used for memory modifying?

[zay4dan]

There's actually a great North Tower article on mugglenet about this, use it for reference if you need, because it has defined a lot of the arguments/points in here into a short essay. Go check it out.

[Liv4Sirius]

I think that if a person puts his or her thoughts in the pensieve before he or she dies and never takes them back out that yes, you could still see them. I don't think you can take memories out of a dead person's body though. And I do think there are more than one pensieves because (and I know DD let Snape use his but thats beside the point) what if you happend to reach in the pensieve and actually take someone elses memory? it's risky really.

An other interesting problem! How come Harry didn`t use Dumbledore`s Pensieve to proove to the magical people (and to Cornelius Fudge) that Voldemort did come back. He could have extracted his memories about that night and so proove that he isn`t joking. Think about this, it could be important!

:welcome: to the forums!!!!

I don't think that that would have worked because even if the Ministry DID look in the pensieve and see those memories, they would have been remembering it from Harry's point of view. And sometimes people create memories in their heads... if you believe something bad enough then it can become real to you and it's hard to tell the diff. between fact and fiction. They could have simply said that he made it all up or that the pensieve was "lying" not that i'm sure they could prove it.

[magical]

What I think is weird about them is why people don't use them for evidence, or maybe they do? I mean for example, if Snape had put his 'Worst Memory' into it when he was younger, couldn't he have followed James etc and have found out that Lupin is a werewolf? I also think it's a bit strange that if you go back into them, you can listen into other people's conversations when you never experienced them in the first place. I hope that makes sense lol.

[clara_bell]

i believe that the thoughts would go once the person had died. The thoughts are only in existence because the person is alive and is able to acess them. Once the person has gone the thoughts go with the person. When someone dies they take their secrets with them.

[Elf]

Original post by rayrayjohanna
It's an interesting questions as to whether the memories, stored outside of the
brain in "pensieve format", would continue to exist if the person who experienced
them had died. I wonder if the Department of Mysteries studies such things,
especially in the Brain room.

I was thinking something similar. Wouldn't that be weird if they stored people's memories at the Department of Mysteries, just like the prophecies? Shelves & shelves of people's memories...that would be weird. It would also be a really convenient way to explain some of the back history in the story.

Can you imagine what that would be like for someone to hand Harry a container full of his parents memories. What a profound an amazing gift that would be! That sends shivers up my spine thinking about it! I don't think that will happen, but it's an intriguing concept.

[pufflepuff]

i wonder why they don't just extract Harry's memories when they need to prove something happened. example: to prove to Crouch that LV came back and killed Cedric and to prove who the death eaters were that were there.

sorry to oryon and Liv4Sirus. I didn't realize you had already discussed this.

[harp230]

Memories may not be considered reliable. Plus, they wouldn't want the trouble , they would not believe the truth anyway.

[ComicBookWorm]

What I think is weird about them is why people don't use them for evidence, or maybe they do? I mean for example, if Snape had put his 'Worst Memory' into it when he was younger, couldn't he have followed James etc and have found out that Lupin is a werewolf? I also think it's a bit strange that if you go back into them, you can listen into other people's conversations when you never experienced them in the first place. I hope that makes sense lol.

It all makes sense if you realize that the Pensieve is just a very clever literary device to give us flashbacks, as well as show Harry an image of his parents when they were alive. There have been many times during Pensieve scenes were I am very conscious that I am seeing or hearing something that could not possibly be from that person's POV. I just tried to sit back and enjoy the scene.

It seems to me it could be a perfect way to prove one's innocence, so why couldn't Sirius have used it.

[filius]

There must be more than one pensieve. It is just a matter of where to buy one or if you can make one. But it does seem weird that DD has everything - like a Phoenix. It may be all the things he has accumilated over the years

[oryon]

Maybe JK didn`t want Harry to show his memories of that night, because somenting else could have came out,for ex. the story with Sirius...

But there could be an other problem: maybe just very powerfull wizards can extract theire memories (Dumbledore,Snape), so Harry could`n do this "operation" because he is just in shool. All together there are manny "if"-s and "maybe"-s, probably to many...

[Remus Black]

That would be awesome if he found James' pensieve.....he would know so much :upset: :p

[oryon]

That idee with James`s Pensieve is cool :) probably we will see something like that in the future.. (Harry saw his parents in the mirror when he was in second year, so there is still time..but it will be probably happening in the sixt book..until then dreem on:)

[SiriusBlack22]

Interesting theory...

I think that you would be able to see them...

In the pensieve are stored thoughts. Just things that people remember. It's actually somewhat fake. Because you aren't looking at the actual actions. Just looking at a memory from someone. Memories live forever, so you should still be able to see them...

Hope that makes sense...

Tom Riddle for HBP!

[SquibOnline]

That's an interesting thought. When a person dies the memory of them is left behind, so I doubt that the Pensieve would be affected by death.

[Joe44]

The memories do NOT dissapear when a person dies. Think back to the DoM, when the brain attacks ron. The white stuff trailing the brain is later identified as memories, so the brain of a clearly dead person still has memories stored in it, which means memories in the pensieve would survive and memories can still even be extracted from a dead persons brain.

[phowell13]

I think the pensieve is similar to Tom Riddle's diaries. It holds memories for a person. It doesn't take away a memory (erase it from your brain) because Dumbledore used it to look for patterns in his memories, but it may remove some of the emotions associated with the memory (i.e. distance a person from the thoughts that most affect them). The reason for this speculation is that if the memory isn't erased per se, then what was the point of Snape using the pensieve in the occlumency lessons? Remember you must clear yourself of emotions to be good at occlumency. Snape speaks of the fools who wear there hearts on their sleeves. If placing the memories in the pensieve helps distance a person from an event then it would help him in teaching Harry Occlumency. We know Snape thinks of Harry as very similar to his father and there was a lot of anger and resentment there. So, that may have been the role of the pensieve for him. Also, it is possible that when the pensieve is holding the memory, even though the individual still retains the memory, maybe it is faint enough as to escape detection by a Legilimens. That may be how Snape can escape revealing certain information to Voldemort.
Basically, the pensieve would retain the selected memories, like Riddle's diary, until called upon to share information. Even after Voldemort has been defeated (although he still exists as Vapormort), Riddle's diary was able to work and retain the memories. So, I would assume the pensieve works in a similar manner.

[Joe44]

i think you've got it in a nutshell Phowell13

[atherella]

There must be more than one pensieve. It is just a matter of where to buy one or if you can make one. But it does seem weird that DD has everything - like a Phoenix. It may be all the things he has accumilated over the years


It's like DD says in OotP after meeting Harry back in his office when Harry is extremely peeved at DD
By all means continue destroying my possessions, " said Dumbledore serenely, "I daresay I have too many."
:lol:

[RockRevival]

+ There are more than one pensieve (Severus has got one, too).
+ Memories remain.

- James was not the person to spend his time looking into a pensieve.
- If someone found that pensieve, maybe used it erasing James' memories.
- How could James have found a pensieve ?

It's possible, but i don't think so.

[Joe44]

the book never states that the Pensieve in snapes office belongs to snape... infact theres more to suggest that it actually belonged to dumbledore.

[atherella]

the book never states that the Pensieve in snapes office belongs to snape... infact theres more to suggest that it actually belonged to dumbledore.

I believe that the book says outright that it is DD's pensieve in Snape's office. :)

[~Tonks~]

I had a thought about the pensieve...

Well... it shows you something that happened... but since it's the thoughts of someone else... isn't it likely that the flashback is also skewed according to the person's perspective? Like when you remember something, you don't always remember it exactly as it happened. This is why eyewitnesses aren't always the most reliable sources... So depending on whose memory you're seeing, it could be altered apart from reality...

I could be wrong, I can't find the quote right now, and if I'm wrong please feel free to correct me, but didn't Jo say not to feel too bad for Snape just yet? I love Snape and I'm not suggesting he's a bad guy, but maybe what we saw in the pensieve isn't exactly what happened?

[Starlight]

^ Well, in a way it wasn't accurate because we only saw part of the memory. Who knows, maybe just after we left the memory, Snape could've turned James and Sirius into toads.

[Padfoot_001]

Is there more than one Pensieve? I always thought it was a unique item owned by Dumbledore. I know it doesn't mention a second pensieve but I think there is only one ever created. That would be cool, though, for Harry to see James' memories. I rather like the 'pensieve' scenes.

I must agree, I too thought that only Dumbledore had one. Snape put his thoughts into DUmbledores pensieve it said so in the 5th book, in the chapter where Snape is extracting memories, so I got the impression it was a unique item. If James did have one however, I really think Harry would still be able to see his memories. Just because James is gone does not mean the memories go to, its like a diary, he's written the memories down and they are there to stay.

[ComicBookWorm]

I had a thought about the pensieve...

Well... it shows you something that happened... but since it's the thoughts of someone else... isn't it likely that the flashback is also skewed according to the person's perspective? Like when you remember something, you don't always remember it exactly as it happened. This is why eyewitnesses aren't always the most reliable sources... So depending on whose memory you're seeing, it could be altered apart from reality...

I could be wrong, I can't find the quote right now, and if I'm wrong please feel free to correct me, but didn't Jo say not to feel too bad for Snape just yet? I love Snape and I'm not suggesting he's a bad guy, but maybe what we saw in the pensieve isn't exactly what happened?
I proposed that exact issue on the Young Severus Snape thread and would have received bodily harm from most of the people there if they could have gotten their hands on me. It was as bad as posting on the love thread.

Memories are colored by the eyes of the beholder. There have been innumerable psycological studies done of eyewitness accounts. They all show that people perceive things through the filter of their world view. No two people perceive the world the same. No matter how magical the Pensieve is, the memory is shaped according to the mindset of the person at that point in time. They are the primary filter for that information.

[atherella]

I agree that a pensieve could hold skewed memories. Since the pensieve is storing a person's memories, and like you mentioned (Call Me Tonks), a person's memories are often skewed by his interpretation of events, simply storing memories in the pensieve does not make them absolutely reliable.

For example, I work in law, in court, we'll often see witness all testify about the same event, all with different interpretations of what actually happened.

Since to store a memory in the pensieve, you are actually removing that memory from your mind and storing it, it makes sense (at least to me) that what is being stored is actually the person storing the memory's version of the memory.

[DarkThunder]

But didnt Dumbledore say something about catching thing he hadnt last time? If it were a memory how would that be possible?

[Joe44]

well from the chapter "snapes worst memory" we can see that memories are intruiging things. Snape didn't hear the conversation between the marauders, yet it was stored inside his memory... perculiar no? its quite difficult to say without any form of confirmation from JKR exactly how this memory storage thingy works.

[Starlight]

Someone on another message board made a good point - DD said that the Pensieve is used to spot connections, and to spot connections, the memories would pretty much have to be accurate, otherwise things would be missed and it would be pretty useless. And Harry did tell Sirius and Lupin what he saw of Snape's memory in the pensieve, so if it that wasn't what happened, they would've said so, instead of defending themselves against something they never did.

Another thing to remember is that it's a plot device, a means for Harry stumble upon past events without, say, going through dusty old records at the MoM to discover that Karkaroff accused Snape of being a DE. It's purpose is to show us past events from a neutral PoV, and not through a third person such as DD or Snape who we would think could be biased. The point of the pensieve is that the memories in it can't be biased, so we can interpret the events ourselves.

As for why it's not used in trials - well, that would make things just too easy! :p

[oryon]

You are right Starlight: the Pensieves could make things to easy, but Dumbledore could have thinked that in this way (if he would use the Pensieve to proove that Harry isn`t imagining that Voldemort is back) he would have saved Harry from a lot of misery, and the MoM then could have started the fight against HeWhoMustNotBeNamed.

[oryon]

Where are u lads? C`mon there is still much to be said..