How did Lupin know so much about the veil?

[auror_girl]

Sorry if this already has a thread but i was wondering how did Lupin seem to know so much about the veil? i mean the veil was in the DoM which is supossed to be all hush-hush and top secrect so how was he so sure that Sirius was dead when he feel through it and that it would be dangerous for Harry to go after Sirius? Maybe i missed something in the book.

[Bill W]

Im not sure, does anyone remember what Lupin did between graduating from Hogwarts and becoming DADA teacher? Seems like I remember him being unable to find work because he was a werewolf, or maybe that was afterwards...Perhaps he learned between school and teaching, doing whatever he was doing. He also seemed to be a reader like Hermione. I dont guess the veil is anything you would learn about later in school, being hidden away in DoM.

[RedCape]

I thought the MoM was studying the veil to figure out the mystery behind death/after life. I think they would know it's connection to death. I don't think that part is the 'mystery.'

I think Luna knew what it was as well. Hermoine seemed to sense it also.

I don't think we know what jobs Lupin has held (other than DADA teacher), just that he has trouble finding a job, especially after Umbridge's anti-werewolf legislature was passed a few years ago.

[SiriusPadfootGrl]

I really do not like that woman (umbridge) but that is totally different thread all together...

maybe, before lupin was "discovered" as a warewolf...he worked in the dept. of mysteries..that could be possible..

just a thought

[purplehawk]

He was in the original Order. He was close to Dumbledore. He was best friends with James and Sirius. I think he was well-positioned to learn about the death chamber based on his associations. Moreover, Lupin is definitely a scholarly type.

[phoenixsong]

I suppose it is possible that Lupin was an Unspeakable, but it seems unlikely, since he had been out of work before his appointment at Hogwarts, and why would he have stopped working at the DoM if he had been working there in the past?

The three who seemed to hear the voices were Harry, Luna and Ginny (did Neville? I can't remember but he may have too). I hypothesize that you can hear the voices if you have had some sort of near-death experience yourself. Having been bitten by a werewolf as a child, Lupin would certainly fall into this category as well, and would have heard the voices coming from behind the veil. And, as purplehawk said, I think he would at least have known about the kind of experimentation and study that goes on at the DoM and have been able to figure out what the veil was.

[RedCape]

Near death experience=hearing voices behind the veil. I like that idea, phoenixsong!

That explains Ginny in addition to the three who could see the thestrals (yes, Neville seemed to hear the voices). I think you may have figured that out!

[DWeasley]

Good catch! I like the idea of "the near death experiance" making them able to hear the voices. I was wondering why some could hear them, and others not. That may not be it, but it certainly seems like a good idea.

As far as Lupin knowing, I agree that he would probably know about it since he was in the Order.

[MalfoyIsMINE]

Good catch! I like the idea of "the near death experiance" making them able to hear the voices. I was wondering why some could hear them, and others not. That may not be it, but it certainly seems like a good idea.

As far as Lupin knowing, I agree that he would probably know about it since he was in the Order.

Well, DWeasly you took the words right out of my mouth, my post was going to say almost the exact same thing... :D

[Demented]

Maybe you all didn't notice, but not just Lupin knew about the veil ... the death eaters did too. When they go into the death chamber (Harry with the death eaters following him) Harry jumps up on to the dias that the arch is on and they "all halted, gazing at him. Some were panting as hard as he was" and then Malfoy says "Potter, your race is run." It seemed to me that they knew about it too that's why they were taken aback when Harry climbed right up onto it. And why would Malfoy say that Harry's race is run? I mean there was another side to the chamber that he could run up to escape. No, Malfory said this because Harry had backed himself into (without passing through it) the veil. Also I think the others knew of it too. When the order arrived wasn't one of the first things they did to get Harry away from the veil?

[GryffindorGal]

I was thinking that perhaps the "veil" is very very dark magic and that's why Lupin, the Order and the Deatheaters all know about it.

Perhaps those whispering voices are there to lure people into it the way that the Siren's song lured sailors onto the rocks.

[RavenclawsFinest]

What near death situation did neville get into?

[GryffindorGal]

It could be related to his grandfather's death. That's he can see the Threskels

[phoenixsong]

We don't know what near-death situation Neville got into, but I'm quite sure that there was one when he was very young, connected to the prophecy and his parents' madness, and to the memory charm that he is likely under. All speculation, I know, but I feel very certain about this!

[Mrs. Biggerstaff]

okay but then why was hermione so quick to drag him away from the veil? has she had a near deaf expericence i did she even hear anything, cause if she didnt then why did she wanna pull harry away from t maybe i 4got sumink!

[phoenixsong]

Hermione, I think, was quick to pull them away from the veil because there were more pressing concerns, like saving Sirius (they thought). She couldn't understand why they were standing around this archway looking so entranced. Just as they were pulling Ginny away from the time bell-jar when she was so engrossed in it.

[YouKnowWho]

Hermione had had a nearly dead experience in book two when she saw the Basilisk trough the mirror, at leat, i would call it a near death experience, because if she didn't see the basilisk trough the mirror she would be death...

[phoenixsong]

Hmm, it's a fair point, YouKnowWho, though one could argue that because Hermione was walking around backwards with a mirror prepared for a basilisk attack, it wasn't exactly a near-death experience, since she had taken the necessary precautions so as not to die.

I hesitate to say this one, because of the excessive amount of name-significance-theorizing going on these days, but Hermione is from Hermes, who was know as psychopompos, the "conductor of souls" because he was the only one who could pass back and forth between the world of the living and the underworld. So maybe there is more to Hermione and the veil, though I'm inclined to believe that JKR picked the name Hermione because she didn't want little girls with the same name as her character to be picked on (which is what JKR herself said in an interview).

[A_Reck]

Hermione and Ron have had close-to-death incounters though too. (They didnt hear the voices, right? I dont rememebr) The troll almost killed them all in book 1, when they went through the trapdoor in book 1, Hermione and the basalisk in book 2, Harry and Ron in the woods in book 2, Harry and Hermione with the dementors at the late in book 3, eh thats all I can think of.

[MSLupin]

Perhaps the Veil is not a secret, but a thing of legend - not widely known, but the sort of thing one might find in an old book. Hermione might have read about it, as might have Lupin and the Death Eaters.

[auror_girl]

I know that it is really hard for Lupin to get a job because he is a werewolf and so the odds of him being an Unspeakable are very unlikely. But I remember someone in the book saying that they did a lot of experiments in the DoM. Maybe Lupin was part of an experiment involving werewolves there and learned about the veil. Just an idea.

[IThinkNot]

I think Lupin's a smart guy. Perhaps Lupin actually had no idea what the viel really was, and so he didn't want Harry charging into it. Kind of like "I don't know what's in that scary looking house, don't go in there, kid." And especially after Sirius couldn't come out from it.

[isntlifejUiCy]

Okay, I definitely think Lupin knew this because, as there is another thread talking about the topic I'm gonna talk about, this fits in with this one too though, but Harry says the room with the veil had stone benches all around it, like the room he was tried in by the WIzengamot. It is like specators are there watching the veil. WHy then? Well, it could be like a death penalty kind of deal, which Lupin and other people would know about if they knew about trials that resulted in capitol punishment. Hermione might know because after all, she does read a LOT. She picks up some interesting facts!

The only thing that holds me back from thinking that is why Lupin knows about it is that it is in the Department of mysteries. If it was in a regular courtroom, that would make more sense, but why would specators (watching a death, yech) go through a place was that super~private?! that makes NO sense. I think it is just there, in an old room, to be placed somewhere, like the mirror of erised was in Harry's first year.

I dont know any more about how Lupin could know about it. I mean being in the order, they surely have some insight, and if they have an unspeakable in the order, he/she would know!

[HannahStarr]

Okay, I definitely think Lupin knew this because ... Harry says the room with the veil had stone benches all around it, like the room he was tried in by the WIzengamot. It is like specators are there watching the veil. WHy then? Well, it could be like a death penalty kind of deal, which Lupin and other people would know about if they knew about trials that resulted in capitol punishment.

I agree that it might be for trying people for something like the Death Penalty, but it's probably not something that people would generally know about, since it's in the DoM.

As to Lupin knowing about the veil, something tells me he didn't know about it, but guessed that if Sirius had gone through it and hadn't returned, then he most likely was dead, and didn't want anyone else dying either.

[IThinkNot]

That's what I said. ;)

[sindatur]

I can't accept that the veil is for use as a Death Penalty. Bellatrix and the other Death Eaters were sent to Azkaban, Sirius was sent to Azkaban. Bellatrix tortured at least 2 people to insanity, and no telling how many she may have killed. Sirius was believed to have killed Peter Pettigrew and 12 muggles (in front of Muggles). If these crimes don't warrant the Death Penalty, how heinous must your crimes be to warrant the Death PEnalty? Apparently you would have to kill more than 1 wizard or more than 12 Muggles, if Sirius wasn't given the Capital Punishment.

[morgan le fay]

they dont use the death penalty cuz instead they have dementors. the fate worse than *death* even is living life without a soul.

[purplehawk]

But how long had the dementors been under Ministry control? I recall Dumbledore saying Fudge should remove Azkaban from the control of the dementors in GoF.

"They will not remain loyal to you, Fudge... Voldemort will persuade them, as he did before... "

That makes me think Azakaban, as we know it, did not come to be until after Voldemort had fled. Maybe there was capital punishment before the Ministry worked out their deal with the dementors.

[morgan le fay]

not only did lupin seem to know what it was and how it worked but bellatrix seemed to know, too. :huh:

no matter how lupin knows, i think that in book 6 harry should ask lupin about it. he should have done that in the first place! :rolleyes:

[angel14]

Some of you have presented rather likable theories but for me as others have said... Lupin didn't exactly know about the veil, it's more of an instinct, like a mother have for her child.

As for the VEIL as a sort-of death chamber... i don't really think that it is one. Though extracting from that theory, i think that it has something to do with a crowd of people, maybe the one's who actually in the veil decides what punishment to give to the next soul that will come their way. Like a jury... so each soul will have to face them and something like reward the soul for all the good he have done and punish him for the bad deeds he did.

[Discordia]

I think Lupin's a smart guy. Perhaps Lupin actually had no idea what the viel really was, and so he didn't want Harry charging into it. Kind of like "I don't know what's in that scary looking house, don't go in there, kid." And especially after Sirius couldn't come out from it. Yeah, Lupin is a smart guy and he seems to be well informed on certain matters. I just wonder he was doing for all those years after he graduated? He looked rather shabby looking on the train going to Hogwarts in book 3. It could have just been instinct. I mean it's not exactly wise to be sticking your hands into certain things in the DoM bc you don't know what it can do. Just like when Ron tried to grab the brains. They didn't know what the after affects could do to him. Just like when Hermione pulled them away. Probably bc 1 they didn't know what it was or what it could do and 2 bc they had other matters to sort out. Lupin was either well informed or just had enough sense not to touch anything bc of how little there's known about the DoM. I mean if it's called the Department of Mysteries it probably means you won't really know exactly what half the stuff in there does anyway.


they dont use the death penalty cuz instead they have dementors. the fate worse than *death* even is living life without a soul.
YOU ARE A GENIOUS! You just gave me an idea! *runs off*

[Angora]

I figured it was one of those things that, as an adult, you would have at least heard of:

"Oh, they have that death veil in the department on mysteries."
"What's that do?"
"I dunno. Kills people, I expect."

Just because at some point during your life it would have been in the news or something for some reason, or mentioned in passing in a book or an article you've read.

But maybe as a fifteen year old (that's how old they were, right?) you wouldn't have heard of it.

I don't think it would have been used to execute people (except maybe, maybe in the dark ages or something). If it's in the DoM, clearly that means it's being studdied. You wouldn't study something like a guillotine, for example. And you wouldn't impliment something weird and mysterious in day to day use. At least, I don't think so.

[Tane]

Lupin probably knows about the veil and what it is capable of but whether he knows what is on the other side is another question. He knew enough to know that Sirius was not coming back from there and the rest is probably folk tail until someone does come back from veil.

What both Harry and Lupin might have to be careful of is going back to the veil and being coaxed into it by Sirius himself as I think they here the people they have lost.

[MissMarauder]

I would find it more surprising if Lupin didn't understand the veil. I was mad at Harry for being so slow about it.

[potterfreak]

I'm sure the order and death eaters knew about the veil because they had to watch the DOM and must have been aware and prepared for everything.

I think dumbledore would not have posted the "guards" of harry/you-know-who's prophecy without telling them what to expect in the DOM.

For example: If they had to follow some death eaters into one of the rooms (the deathroom perhaps?) then they had to know not to go through the veil, not to hear to the whispers from it or not to touch the brains.

[Slim_Moody]

hey when i was fighting beside the guys in the department of mysteries, i didnt notice the veil and later i got pumped by a spell by some scum, well its hard to find who the death eater is because he's wearing a mask. so maybe lupin had known nothing as far as i knew!

[Tane]

Yes I think your right about being surprised more if Lupin did not know about the veil as his specialized area is DADA and the veil appears to be something conjured up from dark ark magic. What I don’t understand is why the veil did not have the same drawing in affect on the members of the order compared to how it tempted the children to move closer too it.

[RemusLupinFan]

I figured it was one of those things that, as an adult, you would have at least heard of:

"Oh, they have that death veil in the department on mysteries."
"What's that do?"
"I dunno. Kills people, I expect."

Just because at some point during your life it would have been in the news or something for some reason, or mentioned in passing in a book or an article you've read.

This seems a reasonable way to learn about the Veil. If Lupin had heard of it, I think this would be the most likely way because the Veil (and just about everything in the DoM) is kept very secret.

However, if Lupin didn't know about the Veil, he may have intuited what it was instinctually- maybe he heard voices like Luna. I like the idea that someone mentioned saying one only hears voices if one has had a near-death experience. Maybe you also hear voices if you've seen someone die (kind of like seeing the Thestrals).

PS- Just a thought: what would happen to Voldemort if he fell through the Veil? Would it kill him? If so, could this be a possible way Voldemort is destroyed?

[Nymph]

I reckon that all great wizards know about the veil, I do think that, back in the death room, everybody (even sirius) but the children was aware of the veil. I even think they (the order) kind of know what the great weapon (let say the love weapon) is all about.

[Deliah]

We don't know about big parts of Lupins life ... he went to school with James and Sirius and after school he most likely joined the order with them, but what happened after that? He had some trouble finding a job before he got the DADA teacher job but I don't think he had been unemployed for over 10 years. And even if he was umemployed he could still have studied things from books ...

[SbIlRaIcUkS]

yea.........i think lupin only knows some basic facts about the veil and will try to help Harry as much as he can.....but REMUSLUPINFAN you had a great idea about Voldemorts death I LIKE IT!!!

[moon781]

I'm sure Lupin just read about it, apparently in the wizard world you can read about anything just ask Hermione.

But what did Lupin do for all those years? And what does he do now? For the order? very curious things..

I do not think LV can die through that veil(unless maybe Harry pushed him) because if it were that simple wouldn't he be dead already?

[Katarzyna]

Heh, I should change my username to "Stalking Lupin".

During that lovely scene between Snape, Harry and Lupin, after Snape caught Harry with the Marauders' map, Snape says, "This parchment is plainly full of Dark Magic. This is supposed to be your area of expertise, Lupin." (p 112, UK PoA) Although that could just be Snape being jealously sarcastic and/or baiting, it might also be true. Perhaps Lupin's speciality is Dark Magic, and he's teaching DADA for reasons other than the position happened to be open. It makes sense to me that someone suffering from lycanthropy would want to study the dark arts... in Lupin's case, not to use dark magic against people, but to defend against it, and possibly find a way to contain the beast within.

If Lupin's speciality is Dark Magic or the Dark Arts, then he might indeed know quite a bit about the veil. Among many other things....

[Murgatroid]

It seems like there was just something that told everybody that the veil was bad. Whenever they were around it, they were uneasy. Lupin also knew about what the MoM was working on because of the Order. After all, the Order was guarding the DoM. They would have to know what was going on inside.

[JPM_03]

Sorry to be a bit off-topic, but may somebody please describe in their own words what the veil looked like? I had a hard time picturing it; even after re-reading GoF, I'm still having trouble. :(

[mevam]

Why was the veil in that stadium-like room anyways? Maybe its the site of executions, it would certainly seem so with it being down in the centre and all you needed to do was give the criminal a little push. Very creepy.

[adamgnome]

That Veil is creepy-What I want to know, is why it drew people near it? o_O

[mrollivander]

JPM, it would be hard to have a good picture of what the veil looks like in your mind after re-reading GoF. Seeing as it's not in that book....


Anyway, I don't know that the veil is common knowledge, as Mr. Weasley says:

"From the Department of Mysteries, top secret, no idea what they get up to..."
(GoF, US ed., page 86.)

If Mr. Weasley, a MoM employee doesn't even know, I doubt that the general wizarding public does. However, Lupin and the Death Eaters seem to know...

[Incanus]

I also had troubles when trying to picture the veil. But anyway, I think Lupin doesn't know much about the veil, nobody seems to know, at least know exactly what tha veil is. Maybe DD knows, or even Voldemort. It was instinct, I think, to protect Harry, who wanted to go after Sirius. But look, they seem to know that who falls there dies, for Bellatrix got very, very excited when Sirius fell there.

Yes, I think they must have experienced any sort of death situations to hear the voices. Not only be in danger, but also see people dying.

[JPM_03]

JPM, it would be hard to have a good picture of what the veil looks like in your mind after re-reading GoF. Seeing as it's not in that book....

Doh! I meant OotP. Sigh.. my brain isn't working tonight. :upset:

Anyway, I like the "near-death" theory. It would be a bit odd to introduce the concept and only use it once (via thestrals).

[auror_girl]

The only word I can think to describe the veil is ominous. Lol.... I remember it being descibed as having a slight breeze coming through it. Very creepy.

[RemusLupinFan]

The way I picture the Veil is like a rounded archway upon a raised dais in the middle of the room, with the veil part hanging from it. The veil itself would look like a faded, thin, black curtain that is always faintly stirring in some unseen breeze. The back, I guess, would be against a wall, but I'm not sure.

That's just my vision of the veil, hope that helps those who were asking.

[moon781]

Maybe its not common knowledge but those who practice the dark arts(DE) or need to know about the dark arts(the order) have made it their business to find out because it concerns them.

[justineee]

Do you think Moody knew about the veil then? He did seem to have a common knowledge about the dark arts.. he was an auror after all..

[mrollivander]

The veil is not against a wall. It's an archway standing in the middle with a veil hanging from it... They go around the other side and see the backside, you know. I have seen a cool fanart of it, but is linking banned in these forums?

[michaela]

I think the veil is one of the most interesting objects so far in the books, although the Mirror of Erised seemed quite cool. I reckon Lupin would of known a. As defence against the dark arts is his subject, and b. because he is really clever.

[zeldaman67]

How I pictures the viel

It would be a rather large room wih beches on the sides with a raises platdform in the middle. There would be a huge old stone arechway with a tatterd older dark red torn rag kinda view that dropped right down to the floor.

[Trinny]

First I'd like to have my say in the matter of the near-death-experiences, hearing voices from the veil AND being able to see the testrals. Well, I think it's a reasonable theory, but what some of you have forgotten is that it's not a near-death experience that qualifies you to these abilities, it's WITNESSING death! Hermione and Ron can't hear the voices or see the testrals since they haven't seen anyone ELSE die. Harry couldn't see the testrals either until book 5, remember? That was AFTER he had seen Cederic being killed by Voldemort. Luna can see them because she saw her mother die.

[Incanus]

But look, Harry had 'seen' at least his mother dying as a baby and could only see the thestrals in book 5. There's something more about the Thestrals, I'm sure about it.

[Trinny]

Are we sure he actually saw his mother die? We know he heard her, but did he SEE her??

[Nymph]

Are we sure he actually saw his mother die? We know he heard her, but did he SEE her??

she came out of the wand, remember ? :angel:

[moon781]

I do think Moody would know about the veil. In his paranoid ways, he seems to know a lot about all things dark. This might help Harry later on.

[Trinny]

Nymph: yes, he saw his mother come out of the wand, but I was replying to the question if Harry had seen her die and therefore be able to see the testrals.
If he DID see her die, he should have been able to see the testrals the very first time he arrived at Hogwarts.

[Incanus]

I believe he may have seen. We don't know, but I think so. Maybe there's more about the Thestrals than we actually imagine. Let's wait. :D

[Trinny]

Okey, I'll TRY to wait for the next book, but it's soooo hard! Does anyone have a clue as to when it's due?

[hey_itz_me]

jkr sed, "sometime soon"

[strange magic]

Maybe Ginny Luna Nevile and Harry were Mesmerized by the veil because of their Horrific childhood (Tom, Bella, Parents dying)

[iluvlupin]

JKR has said that the reason Harry could not see the Thestrals before his fifth year, was because you have to be able to understand death. Therefore, even if Harry did see Lily die, he didn't understand it at the time. He didn't see them at the end of his fourth year, right after Cedric died because he still had not truly accepted everything that had happened.

[Lord Nicholai]

and also because she didnt want to introduce a new mystery in the final chapters of the books

[outoftheveil]

Lupin is a straight up GENIOUS!!! AND THE BEST CHARACTER EVER!!!!

Sorry, I kinda like Lupin.

[Mione Weasley]

Man, i was just wondering this the other day...did Lupin hear the voices in the veil or not?? To me, that´s the only reason why he could be so sure that Sirius was gone. I mean, if you see your only remaining best friend vanishing behind a veil with his son-in-law yelling desperate beside it, you would want to try to help and well, believe that he is fine. Why would you assume that he was gone for good?? You would at least have some hope that he was ok.

Anyway, this whole thing is very weird. I mean, some people seems to hear the voices and they get attracted to the veil, like Harry, Ginny and Neville (did Luna seem attracted?? I don´t remember), but some other seemed to know it was dangerous, like Hermione and Lupin. Why does that happen?? Maybe the voices in the veil are the voices of people that you know and that died, or from people you saw dying?? And maybe they are trying to communicate with you (apparently Luna heard the voices saying that they were only hiding. Maybe it was her mom??). But i still don´t get why some people just have the feeling that the veil is dangerous...but i do believe that maybe Lupin acted like Hermione, he just had the feeling that the veil was dangerous...do you think that Hermione could hear the voices too...??

And i definetly don´t think that neither one of them knew what the veil was exactaly. As somebody else said, if even Mr. Weasley who works in the Ministry doesn´t know what happens in the MoM, how could Hermione know?? I´m sure that what they do in there is top secret and it´s not written in any books or anything. Dumbledore knows things too, but i don´t know if he had been in the MoM before, nor known all it´s misteries. I mean, he doesn´t know everything. Maybe not even the Unspeakables knows what does that veil do. Afterall, it is in the Departament of Misteries.

[Libertine]

well i know lupin and everyone else isn't supposed to know what happens at the dept of mysteries (like at the quidditch world cup arthur weasley says he has no idea what they do in there) but i suppose if you're in the order you have access to top-secret information like that. because obviously arthur DOES know what goes on in the DoM, as he's protecting the prophecy.

[bloodstonemagic]

for me the behind the veil is a entry to the spirital world. who ever enters would meet death ,yes,of course. i don't recall anything in the books that Lupin know more then them. But Luna seem to know things. She's a strange little girl that luna. i think she will play an important role in the future. but too bad we don't know it yet...it's all in JKR's head

[Thorofasgard13]

The only thing that holds me back from thinking that is why Lupin knows about it is that it is in the Department of mysteries. If it was in a regular courtroom, that would make more sense, but why would specators (watching a death, yech) go through a place was that super~private?! that makes NO sense. I think it is just there, in an old room, to be placed somewhere, like the mirror of erised was in Harry's first year.

I dont know any more about how Lupin could know about it. I mean being in the order, they surely have some insight, and if they have an unspeakable in the order, he/she would know!

Usually During an execution in most court systems only the families of the victims and the one being executed are allowed to be there watching.

And back to the topic, it is said that Umbridge passed anti-werewolf legislation a few years back so it makes sense that before then that Lupin could hold down a job, being pretty much a genius a research job at the ministry wouldn't be too far off.

[peddlerofdeath]

Maybe lupin knew about the veil because he had heard stories about it. When he saw the veil he knew what it was because it was the centerpoint of a popular legend. Even though he had never seen it before he knew the stories so he knew what the veil could do.

[PaDfOoT5]

I think Lupin may be hiding something. Like, he was SO SURE that Sirius was dead. Maybe he has had past experience in dealing with the veil. I dont know..

[TylerDurden]

Perhaps the veil is just a [sort of] well known thing. You may even be able to look it up in books in the library [probably in the restricted section]. It's such a facsinating thing, I suppose he just found out about it through being the book worm that he is!

[Master Bere]

I have also wonder why Lupin was inmediatly sure about Sirius' death and why he stopped harry, I'm guessing that he kind of knew what the veil means and seeing Sirius fell in and not returning, he assume what would happen to harry if he went throught there;We know that Lupin is very bright and smart but I don't think he or anyone knows what really the veil is and that's what harry will find out in the next book...

[michaela]

Well he was a Defence Against the Dark Arts teacher, and seems to be an intelligent man so he would know about the veil.

[Violet Black]

Well, the sight of a black veil stirring faintly in a silent breeze would freak out almost anybody, so maybe Lupin was working from sheer intuition.

However ... I like the theory of the near-death experience, which Lupin would have almost certainly encountered after being bitten as a child. Those who understand death might not know the exact purpose of the veil, but possess just enough intuitive awareness to know it symbolises 'bad news' in some shape or form.

Having said that, Luna didn't seem especially peturbed by the Veil - in fact, she seemed to draw a sort of comfort from the 'voices' behind it.


I also like the idea that Lupin was a one-time DoM employee who studied the Veil during his tenure there, but was later fired for being a werewolf.

There's one small flaw in this theory, however - if the DoM (and by extension, the Ministry) was aware of Remus' lycanthropy before he took the DADA post at Hogwarts, then surely they'd have done everything in their power to overturn his appointment from the word go. Presumably there'd be children of DoM employees at Hogwarts during Remus' stint as DADA teacher; doubtless some of these employees would remember him, especially if he'd 'left' the DoM in a storm of controversy some years previously.

A letter home from an unsuspecting student saying, "Oh yes, we have a fantastic new Defence teacher, his name's Professor Remus Lupin ..." and it wouldn't be long before said parents put two and two together and tried to get Remus removed from his post, way before the fateful night of Sirius' return.

[DayVirgo]

I think the best possibilities for why Lupin knows about the veil are:

1. Lupin being an Unspeakible
We know that it was hard for him to obtain a job, but there had to be at some point of time when no one or very few people knew that he was a werewolf. Umbridge also was the one who put in a lot of anti-werewolf rules, so it is quite possible she found out about Lupin while he was working in the Ministry and, as a result of her severe dislike of halflings, got the Minister to change the laws and he got fired as a result. This was probably several years ago (possibly before Harry was born as his clothes are said to look really old and ratty. He probably bought them at a time when he had money)

2. Lupin read about it while at school.
This is also another good possibility. This also depends on whether or not the Department of Mysteries actually publishes stuff about what they are studying or if he read about a myth. If Lupin had read about it while at school, this means the veil is also very old and has been known and studied for a long time. It also has to deal with very dark magic. Lupin seems very well aquainted with dark magic so it is possible in his studies he had read about the veil.

I like number one the best. I think it would be awesome if Lupin did work for the Department of Mysteries as he could probably help out Harry with the door that can't be opened.

[RemusLupinFan]

Man, i was just wondering this the other day...did Lupin hear the voices in the veil or not?? To me, that´s the only reason why he could be so sure that Sirius was gone. I mean, if you see your only remaining best friend vanishing behind a veil with his son-in-law yelling desperate beside it, you would want to try to help and well, believe that he is fine. Why would you assume that he was gone for good?? You would at least have some hope that he was ok.It is pure speculation whether he heard the voices or not, but I think it's quite possible he might have. It seems to be a plausible explaination to explain why Lupin so very quickly stopped Harry from running up to the veil to look for Sirius. It could explain why he didn't have the same reaction that Harry did when Sirius fell through, which would have been to run into the veil to see where Sirius had gone. If he had heard the voices at some point, he would have recognized immediately that the veil was dangerous, and thus would have been a little more prepared to grab Harry when Sirius fell through.

As I was reading OotP, something struck me during the battle with the Death Eaters. At the point where Harry runs through the only uncharmed door in the Brain Room, prophecy in hand, he finds himself in the room with the veil. After he sort of tumbles down all the stone benches, ten Death Eaters appear from various entryways and surround him, so he's backed up against the dais:The back of his legs hit something solid; he had reached the dais where the archway stood. He climbed backward onto it. The Death Eaters all halted, gazing at him.I find it curious that all of the Death Eaters stop in their tracks once Harry climbs onto the dais, as if they’re considering his next move, or whether he’ll back up too far and fall through. At this point, they seem reluctant to attack him. Perhaps this is just because they've got Harry surrounded with no where to go, but when I read this scene, it just struck me that maybe Lupin wasn't the only one who knew (or intuited) more about the veil than they let on.

Anyway, this whole thing is very weird. I mean, some people seems to hear the voices and they get attracted to the veil, like Harry, Ginny and Neville (did Luna seem attracted?? I don´t remember), but some other seemed to know it was dangerous, like Hermione and Lupin. Why does that happen?? Maybe the voices in the veil are the voices of people that you know and that died, or from people you saw dying?? And maybe they are trying to communicate with you (apparently Luna heard the voices saying that they were only hiding. Maybe it was her mom??). But i still don´t get why some people just have the feeling that the veil is dangerous...but i do believe that maybe Lupin acted like Hermione, he just had the feeling that the veil was dangerous...do you think that Hermione could hear the voices too...??In the text, it was never clearly stated whether or not Ginny and Neville actually heard the voices behind the veil or not. They are only described as being "entranced" by it, while Harry and Luna most definately heard the voices. I've often wondered who the voices belonged to, and why Hermione and Ron were seemingly unaffected by them.

[atherella]

As I was reading OotP, something struck me during the battle with the Death Eaters. At the point where Harry runs through the only uncharmed door in the Brain Room, prophecy in hand, he finds himself in the room with the veil. After he sort of tumbles down all the stone benches, ten Death Eaters appear from various entryways and surround him, so he's backed up against the dais:I find it curious that all of the Death Eaters stop in their tracks once Harry climbs onto the dais, as if they’re considering his next move, or whether he’ll back up too far and fall through. At this point, they seem reluctant to attack him. Perhaps this is just because they've got Harry surrounded with no where to go, but when I read this scene, it just struck me that maybe Lupin wasn't the only one who knew (or intuited) more about the veil than they let on.

I'm so glad you posted that RLF. I just finished my summer re-read tonight, and when I got to that part you mentioned, when all the DEs halted, I wondered exactly what you said. It did seem as if they all knew that the veil was something more than just an archway with a veil. The way they all halted definitely raised a red flag with me. I know LV has spies in the MoM, so perhaps LV knows about the veil and told them about it. Doesn't seem likely though that they were unaware of its existence, otherwise, why would they have all stopped so suddenly, just to watch. :huh:

[blackmoon]

The idea that the veil is a well known thing probably carries the most weight with me.

I get the impression that things were run very differently at the Ministry (as well as Hogwarts) before the fall of Voldemort. Fudge was only Minister at some point after that. So:
- I think it highly likely that there were Ministry positions for non-humans and near-humans (like Lupin) before then. This could make him an unspeakable, perhaps a uniquely valuable one since he may have extra abilities and senses. He certainly knows his dark arts.
- I think it highly likely that there were executions as well as research into death happening in that room. The dementors came (back?) to Azkaban during Fudge's time, I believe. Also, mention has been made (see Barty Crouch Sr.) that the ends were justifying the means during part of Voldemort's time of power. There's also the goblin wars, the (possible) subjugation of the house elves, and the seperation of the centuars to give evidence that everyone isn't as open-minded as Dumbledore.

I think the links to those "beyond the veil" (DD says death is only the next great adventure) is strong in ties of love, so the theory about who hears the voices is a cool one.

Hermoine... well, she's basically the method by which to intruduce any information Harry doesn't know, as long as it could have been written down in a book. Her knowing things is never, for me, a clue relating her to the thing.

[azkaban]

it's a known fact that there isn't much info about DoM among ordinary wizards but i believe lupin has a little more knowledge than normal wizards. otherwise how would he be able to be a DADA teacher at Hogwarts? besides, remember harry heard bellatrix screaming triumphly after she shot sirius in the chest and he fell like he was drawing a curve with his body. so it means that bellatrix knows about the veil, too. so tihs got me thinking, why shouldn't lupin know if bellatrix does? i don't think that the veil has anything to do with dark magic or stuff. it seems like something that's perfectly suitable for lupin to know about.

[Meldy]

I love sirius and I was really sad when he died. died? did he truly died? I don´t think so.
While I was re-reading GoF for the 12 time I fonud something important. ell I think it is. I wanna know what you think.
here goes:

When was listenig at the golden egg in the prefects´ bath.
the song said:

"Come seek us where our voices sound, We cannot sing above the ground, And while you're searching, ponder this: We've taken what you'll sorely miss, An hour long you'll have to look, And to recover what we took, But past an hour - the prospect's black, Too late, it's gone, it won't come back." - (463 GoF)

Ok so how do you relacionaate this with sirius?
let´s analize it.

"Come seek us where our voices sound"
In OotP harry heard the voices through the veil. right?

"We cannot sing above the ground"
They only heard the voices in the death room, in the veil. nowhere else. this iisn´t very important.

"And while you're searching, ponder this: We've taken what you'll sorely miss" So sirius is obviously what he will sorely miss. the person he love the most. Sirius is like a father to harry.

"An hour long you'll have to look, And to recover what we took"
Maybe harry will have to go to the ministry of magic and rescue sirius. he has one oun to find him. one hour once he dissapear. from the end of OotP when sirius "died" Harry has one... year? he´ll rescue him in book six maybe?
One chapter after this is "padfoot´s retun" could this mean something?

"But past an hour - the prospect's black[/B], Too late, it's gone, it won't come back"
The prospect´ Black. curious because black is sirius last name. why did Jo say Black? she coul have used any word.
"it's gone, it won't come back" isn´t this what Lupin told harry at the end of OotP after sirius fell through that misterious veil?

Well that´s my theory. Maybe some things are incorrect buy I read the book in spanish so I could be wrong, but I think this makes sense.
Sorry if my grammar isn´t correct. I am argentinian and I ñnow a little English.

I want to know your opinion. it´s really impornat to me.
If you wanna discuss the books, my theory or anything you want I´d be glad.
Send me owls!!!

Thanks for your time.

Chau (bye in Spanish)

[Cine]

What kinda takes me away from the "scary looking house" theory, is that not only did Remus keep Harry from going after Sirius -which makes sense- but he also knew that Sirius wouldn't be going back, and that Sirius was dead! How would he know that Sirius was dead after going through the veil if he didn't have some expirence with the veil already?

Myself, I never noticed that there were benches around the veil! That, however, makes me think even more o_o WHY was the veil some kind of a scene?

Oh, and what kind of near-death expirence would Luna have? Sure, her mother died, but she wasn't having a near death exprience then, right?

[AndyRFan22]

That theory actually makes a lot of sense. I've never really thought too much about that merpeople song before...

[Snidget66]

Well he was ex-DADA teacher. He probably knows about it-like DD, Sirius, and others.

[Selene Sedai]

he probably knew about it because he's in The Order.. and the order was studying the Department of Mysteries.. remember all those blue prints? unless that was something else.. but they would have researched the Department of Mysteries anyhow because of the whole prophecy thing. But maybe Lupin's been in the Department of Mysteries before..or used to work there? But i doubt it..

Nymph: yes, he saw his mother come out of the wand, but I was replying to the question if Harry had seen her die and therefore be able to see the testrals.
If he DID see her die, he should have been able to see the testrals the very first time he arrived at Hogwarts.
he didn't see his mother die then.. he only saw the flash of green light... witch means.. a recount of the night Voldemort attacked the Potters! for book 6... :)

[LuvRed]

Simple, Lupin knows about the Dark Arts; and the Veil is a Dark tool with a history. I wonder if we find out how the Veil works in books 6 and 7.

[ydnam96]

I don't know that the veil is a dark tool. I mean, yes it was responsible for Sirius' death, but that doesn't mean it's evil...

I think that room has some more significance than we think. Why would there be benches? It made me think of an ampitheater, like from ancient Rome. Very Shakespere...why would it be in the department of mysteries? Possibly because they were trying to study death. It could be the portall between the living and the dead....

BUt I don't think just because it deals with death it's evil.
And, I think that even had Lupin not known what it was before he got there, he is pretty quick on the uptake and guessing from everyone's reaction it wasn't hard to figure out that Sirius wasnt' coming back.

[DuFF]

I've heard this theory and it makes sense to me:

The veil (veil of death) was used for executions before the Ministry teamed up with Dementors. People that were sentenced to death were put through the veil, never to return. That would explain why the room had benches (for spectators of the execution) and why the veil was raised in front of everyone. Many of the older wizards would have possibly seen an execution here or at least heard about them.

What do you guys think?

And on a second note, I believe that you hear voices from the veil if you have seen death, just like the Thestrals. Or at least if someone you knew died.

[PotterFan7]

... This is the first time that I've been here, but it seems to be a very interesting thread... I like the idea of the veil being used before the dementors were used... that's why the room reminded Harry so much of the courtroom that he was in before.

Anyways... I'm not going to start making comments yet... because I have 4 pages of reading to catch up on

[missblack321]

I agree with DuFF. I think that if you have seen death, then you can hear the voices. It makes sense now. When I read the book, I didn't realise why the others couldn't hear the voices, but now i understand!

[enthusiast]

Maybe adult Wizards and Witches as a whole know certain things about the Ministry of Magic. Those hearings of the Death Eaters that Harry saw in Dumbledore's pensive seemed to be open to the public and therefore some knowledge might come from a situation such as that. Maybe besides sending people on trial to Azkaban maybe some are sent to the Death Chamber?

Sarah

[Firebolt2004]

I agree with DuFF. I think that if you have seen death, then you can hear the voices. It makes sense now. When I read the book, I didn't realise why the others couldn't hear the voices, but now i understand!
I don't have the book with me now, but didn't Ginny hear something there too? She can't see thestrals.

[crystal_joy]

I don't have the book with me now, but didn't Ginny hear something there too? She can't see thestrals.

No, Ginny was just entranced by the veil, probably because she's been very close to death herself... I think the only ones that could hear the voices were Harry and Luna.