Book SIX: Who will fall in love with whom part three

[lanifiel]

Thats right, its that time again. A fresh start for you to go nuts in. Same rules as all the others apply. Be good.

Old Thread: http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=14237

[Mad Eye Mike]

Harry & Hermione will get together. Everyone else will die. :evil:

[sone]

You know Hawk, your post about the Christmas gifts just brought up a weird thought in my head. JKR supposedly said that Harry will end with someone who has been there since "the beginning" Well in the last chapter of GOF called "the beginning" Hermione kisses Harry on the cheek. Hmmm....ain't that something?

Anyway, I think Harry and Hermione will have one of those "magic" moments when he finally tells her what the prophecy said about him and Voldemort.

[Mad Eye Mike]

sone - You think that's when Hermione will finally tell Harry she loves him? When she's faced with the prospect of truly losing him?

[Turambar]

Well it's a bit more definate - knowing that he has to kill or be killed - than a general fear of Harry being in danger.

[sone]

Definitely Mike. I think Hermione would be very lonely without him. That is not to say that she does not have Ron, but Harry and Hermione are different. It does not seem surprising now what Hagrid said about Hermione being upset and feeling lonely not talking to either Harry or Ron. She was extremely busy and not getting much sleep but still found time to watch Harry play Quidditch and did not sit next to Ron.

Not to mention her reaction to him falling off his broom in the first place. She had been crying very hard and/or very recently. She was shaken up than everyone in the hospital wing. Didn't even mumble words at first but rather a squeak. Even her fear of Harry going after Sirius Black reduced her to tears. How upset she got at Trelawney when she had predicted Harry's death yet again. When Harry had told the Weasleys and Hermione that he was cleared of all charges, she literally had a shaking hand over her eyes. Her reaction to Harry getting near that veil in the DoM.

Hearing what that prophecy would just be too much I think. I honestly do not know how Harry is going to tell or explain it to her.

[FlyingPhoenix]

Earendil: Nice sig, indeed very nice :evil:
Mike : I just love your new one, especially the iceberg very nice :rotfl:

Now to this kiss by Hermione to Ron. Remember as I said one day she will make a failure and I think this is where its starts. To be exactly you say that Hermione don't act as if she avoid Ron or don't want with him together and that what you do if you don't like the fact he likes you and you not him. If Hermione realy decide that she wait till he comes to him or if its become to obvious like this perfume than she do something than this what she do makes perfect sense. She don't avoid him not really. She act as if nothing had happen. You need to keep in mind that Hermione fears to lose Ron's friendship. Now if we say Hermione did kiss Harry, too than it would be very strange if she only kiss Harry though its not his first match. But by Ron is it the first match and even she know he likes her, he is still her best friend and still freaking out because he is that nervous and still there are Slytherins which wear this badges and still Hermione do like Ron as a friend. So why shouldn't she kiss him? Its on the cheek and might nothing say as only friendly if you say Ron saw how Hermione kissed Harry on King Cross on the cheek than you might say he thought well this was friendly why should he think now she fancy me? If he think about this kiss that way than he have to think about her kiss for Harry much more this way if you take: She speaks often about Harry, she hugs him like a maniac and she break every schoolrule for him.
So I really doubt that you could say this kiss was because she likes him and if she not like him than she shouldn't kiss him. Thats wrong because if she decide to act normal and she think this kiss would be normal even she didn't know he like her than she do kiss him like a friend.

Ron is after all still her best friend and has his most difficult game in front of him.

But still this kiss could be a failure a start of her failure.

Now to her rudness she is it everytime if she is very emotional like if it comes to H/C and than Ron give his comments to that. There she shows that Ron is her problem that she don't want to deal with it. Better she just want that everything is like in her 2th year in this friendship. that this don't exist R>Hr>H but how I said Harry isn't her problem its Ron. He is the one who she might reject in book6. Off course she think its his fault that he feel like that so she act at times rude.

[Turambar]

That's interesting FP.
It got me thinking about the physical contact between H/Hr: most of it happens when they are having adventures alone together. The hug in PS, the shrieking shack and time-turner scenes, the visit to Grawp, the forest trip with Umbridge.
There have been occasions when there's been H/Hr contact while Ron is there: such as when the Fat Lady is slashed, when she pulls Harry back into his seat at the QWC, she grabbed his robes to pull him away when they saw the Dark Mark and vice versa in the DOM. But with these occasions it's quite possible Ron was unaware of it, since they were emotional/distracting situations.
So Ron's never had to face the sight of Hermione whimpering with fear [at Grawp] in Harry's arms.

[Mad-I Moody]

Well, it doesn't exactly say that she was whimpering with fear in Harry's arms, now...

Doesn't it say that she "clung to Harry behind the tree, shaking and whimpering"? This doesn't mean that Harry took her in his arms now, does it? I mean, I thought of it more like she was clinging to his arm, or cowering behind Harry, not embracing him. Not that this is a huge deal or anything...but, then again, I'm a R/Hr shipper! ;)

[sone]

Exactly Turambar. Harry has always been the one Hermione has stayed close to. I do not think Ron has been aware of it as of yet because he has not really been there but even when he is, does not notice that Hermione stays close to him. Makes you wonder if he saw Hermione kiss Harry in GOF. It never said whether he did or not.


I mean, I thought of it more like she was clinging to his arm, or cowering behind Harry, not embracing him.

I'm sure you did. However it never said that Hermione clung to Harry's arm. Just that she clung to him which does mean to embrace.

[Mad-I Moody]

Yes, but Harry definitely saw Hermione kiss Ron in OotP, didn't he? She didn't make any point not to do it in front of Harry -- I mean, she didn't make any point not to do it at all, good luck kiss or not.

OK, this is from the old threas, but I'd like to respond:
I'm not saying that Hermione was the only one that could of reached Harry, I am saying she is the only who did. I do not need the rest of the conversation to support that. That is how I can signify that she reached him. That and many other examples throughout the book. One of the reasons why I see Harry and Hermione because yes she can get Harry out of that room. More importantly, the author chose to write Hermione as the one to do it.
So Hermione gets Harry out of a room after he's been sulking for a day. OK, and let's even say it was significant that JKR chose to write Hermione as the one who got him out. Why is in not then significant that JKR chose Ginny to be the one who begins to truly break down Harry's defenses -- it says, after she tells him what it was like to be possesed by LV, that "Harry hardly dared believe her, yet his heart was lightening almost in spite of himself." So in this scene as a whole, Hermione is not the "only one" to reach Harry - she gets him out of the room, Ginny begins to break his sulky mood, Hermione interjects with support, and then Ron seals the deal with "You didn't leave your bed, mate."

I can't, in good conscience, give more weight to Hermione (and JKR's choice of using Hermione) getting Harry out of the room than I do to Ginny being the one to crack the ice, so to speak. ;)

EDIT: Oh, and Ecthelion, I wanted to respond to a post of yours at the end of page 71 or so in the old thread. I wanted to apologize if I made you think your post irked me or anything. None of my posts are ever intended to be rude or biting -- but, as we all know, it is difficult to discern tone from typed words! In any case, no hard feelings, eh? :)

[ronrocks]

Hi, I have been lurking at the love threads for a while now. I am amazed by the great discussions presented by all ships! I love to come to this thread each day and see what new ideas everyone has regarding the love lives of Harry and friends.

I would love to hop aboard the HMS Harmony! I am so amazed to see how much Harry and Hermione's friendship has grown with each book, and I believe that by the end of Book 7 we will see this friendship develop into love. :love:

[Mad-I Moody]

I'm sure you did. However it never said that Hermione clung to Harry's arm. Just that she clung to him which does mean to embrace.

Yes, but I guess it should be clarified that cling CAN mean "to embrace," but it can also mean other things, too -- things not precisely in line with Harry and Hermione holding one another.

cling ** (*P*)*
intr.v. clung, (klng) cling·ing, clings

1. To hold fast or adhere to something, as by grasping, sticking, embracing, or entwining: clung to the rope to keep from falling; fabrics that cling to the body.
2. To remain close; resist separation: We clung together in the storm.

So it can mean "to grasp" -- as in Harry's arm or something. It can also mean "to embrace," but, as you said, the text never says she clung to Harry's arm. It also never says that Harry and Hermione embraced, hugged, Harry took Hermione into his arms protectively, or what have you. Finally, in the dicitionary example of the second definition of cling, which I think is also an appropriate definition, the text states that two people "clung together." Now, if this was a mutual embrace that JKR really wanted to signify something deeper between Harry and Hermione, why wouldn't she word it "Harry and Hermione clung together"? Instead, it is "Hermione clung to Harry," who is, by the way, the only person in proximity to her that isn't either 16 feet tall, or very close to the 16 foot tall creature. It is a huge conclusion to draw, IMHO -- to assume that Hermione's reaction to Grawp trying to seize her is indicative of her romantic feelings towards Harry.

[sone]

Why is in not then significant that JKR chose Ginny to be the one who begins to truly break down Harry's defenses -- it says, after she tells him what it was like to be possesed by LV, that "Harry hardly dared believe her, yet his heart was lightening almost in spite of himself."

Mad-I, you are going to have stop asking questions that I am not arguing. I do not downplay R/Hr moments or H/G moments.....I just do not believe they're more of them than there is H/Hr moments.

[Mad Eye Mike]

Yes, but Harry definitely saw Hermione kiss Ron in OotP, didn't he? She didn't make any point not to do it in front of Harry -- I mean, she didn't make any point not to do it at all, good luck kiss or not.


Since the kiss meant nothing, there was no reason to hide it from Harry's view.

[Grace Granger]

:welcome: ronrocks to the HMS Harmony Ship. If you would please be kind to walk towards your right. There you will have a choice to join the Aurors Division whose Captain is Mad Eye Mike or the Jedi Knights of Pumpkin Army Division whose Captain is Hawk92. Either division, you'll be in good hands.

Warning: What is written below is not directed towards anyone in particular so don't jump down my throat because it isn't about you. :)

R/Hr Kiss
I don't see this as Hermione accidentally leading Ron on at all. They're friends and if she wants to show him support by giving him a kiss on the cheek then so be it. It'll be Ron's fault if he thinks it's because she likes him, especially since she has not hinted that she is interested any other time and she's still writing to Krum and doesn't know what is going on with their relationship, or friendship, whatever it is at this point.

Why hasn't Hermione mentioned anything about her relationship with Krum!?

Hermione's clinging
It all depends on how you pictured Harry grabbing Hermione and pulling her backwards. I had assumed the tree was not too far away, but in order for Harry to get Hermione behind that tree he had to put his weight on doing that (I'm sure she has some weight on her). So I always thought he had put his hands around her arms to move her away, thus major contact (and I'm not saying this in a SHIPpy way.)

I have pictured that once behind the tree either 1) Harry has his back against the tree, hands on Hermione's upperarms or beside him looking back at Hagrid and Grawp OR 2) Harry putting Hermione's back against the tree, hands on her upperarms, looking forward to Hagrid and Grawp. Either way, I pictured her head against his chest looking down while holding on to the front of his robes.

Enough rambling.

[Mad-I Moody]

Mad-I, you are going to have stop asking questions that I am not arguing. I do not downplay R/Hr moments or H/G moments.....I just do not believe they're more of them than there is H/Hr moments.

I'm only asking the questions because I want there to be a balance. I'm merely pointing out that I don't see how the H/Hr moments outweigh any of the other (R/Hr or H/G or any other ship) moments. I'm not asking the questions specifically of you -- they're more for rhetoric's sake than for actual answering. Though I'm not opposed to anyone answering them...Anyway, I'm not meaning to offend, I'm just trying to make my own point.:D

Since the kiss meant nothing, there was no reason to hide it from Harry's view.
I can understand the view that this was a harmless, good-luck kiss. However, I don't understand how it could mean nothing. Why would Hermione do it, then? Why not a pat on the back, a handshake, a side-hug, or a wink? ;)

[Mad Eye Mike]

I can understand the view that this was a harmless, good-luck kiss. However, I don't understand how it could mean nothing. Why would Hermione do it, then?<edit>


Hermione did it because it did mean nothing. Nothing = no harm.

[Grace Granger]

I can understand the view that this was a harmless, good-luck kiss. However, I don't understand how it could mean nothing. Why would Hermione do it, then? Why not a pat on the back, a handshake, a side-hug, or a wink? ;)

I believe Hermione did it because she truly saw how nervous he was and wanted to be supportive. On the rare occasion Hermione is affectionate and this is one those moments.

[Auror77]

The reason she probably kissed him on the cheek was just to give him good luck. She knew he was nervous after all. Also anyone noctice how Harry said there was nothing going on with him and Hermione when he was in that tea place with Cho on Valentine's Day? Well, when later on, she told him that was a terrible trick Hermione did to that D.A. list. He said he thought it was a brilliant idea then she's like 'Oh yes, if it was darling Hermione's idea!"! This time he didn't try to defend himself by saying there wasn't anything going on between them, he just warned her saying, "Don't start crying again!" Now I'm not saying there is something going on between them(Not yet anyway), I just meant he didn't defend himself this time and defended Hermione instead.

[Mad-I Moody]

All I'm saying is that it seems a bit deliberate that JKR chose to have Hermione
a) be worried enough about Ron to alert Harry that he shouldn't let Ron see the Slytherin's badges and
b) show her support for Ron/her confidence in Ron or whatever by standing on her tiptoes and kissing him on the cheek in the Middle of the Great Hall.

Wouldn't a pat on the arm or shoulder or a one-armed hug have been affectionate AND supportive? something like:

"Good luck, Ron," said Hermione as she reached out and patted his hand affectionately. "And you, Harry -"

Why a kiss?

[FlyingPhoenix]

I can understand the view that this was a harmless, good-luck kiss. However, I don't understand how it could mean nothing. Why would Hermione do it, then? Why not a pat on the back, a handshake, a side-hug, or a wink?
Do you realise that you sound exactly like a H/Hr shipper? This are exactly the same question which H/Hr shipper asked after the King Cross kiss.
Why not a hug? This shows much more comfort why a kiss? This do show everything and nothing at the same time. This on the King Cross wasn't a good luck kiss. What was it than? A supporting kiss? Say I'm with you or is it just was it is a kiss?
Did Ron see it or not? Or was nobody there who could be suspicious?

See you can ask this about both kiss.

It got me thinking about the physical contact between H/Hr: most of it happens when they are having adventures alone together. The hug in PS, the shrieking shack and time-turner scenes, the visit to Grawp, the forest trip with Umbridge.

This is one off few things why I think the movies are wrong. In PS/SS They don't hug but in COS in front off the whole school this isn't right because this make the story more confusing and obvious how this will work in this serie that indeed Hermione might choice who will be the guy.

Once I mentioned that in canon is some lack off feelings by Harry this is always if it comes to Hermione. I mean the only time we read emotions about her its as he think she might be dead. In all other instance JKR just don't describe it. R/Hr and H/G say its because they aren't there but thats to simple. They aren't describe to let his feelings about Hermione in the dark. Its not negative or posstive feelings if Hermione hugs him in PS/SS or as she was petriefied he was more as numb in that scene as he saw her. In PoA about this fight and as they all reunited. In GoF as Ron ask her to the ball, its like Harry isn't even there. At the Ball or the kiss in OotP as she again hugs him.
All this is without any reaction without any feelings. Just get it straight she is his friend even as author you don't want H/Hr than you might write about his concern or that he is shocked. But what is Harrys lack of emotions in conection with Hermione is because off the illusion of R/Hr?

I need to explain in OotP Harry start to think often about Hermione and hears her voice in his mindm shows the first time emotions as something happens to her or as they argue. JKR said this book is that big because the reader don't want be clueless in book6 if something in surprise happens. That he sit there and shake the head and ask where was that? Are there any hints in the other books?
If JKR will really bring H/Hr in a way she did it in PS/SS with Snape/Quirell than she have to create an illusion off R/Hr that say there are obvious hints and the reader think "Ha, this two will go together!" Now for this illusion JKR need to cut out Harrys emotions in connection off Hermione it would destroy this illusion if Harry is concerned in COS or blush about the kiss in GoF or if we get Harrys thoughts as Hermione kiss Ron. In OotP JKR do give suddenly more if not real hints for H/Hr and even emotions from Harrys part shows that his mind sound like Hermione or that he think very much in connection to her. So it won't be complett out off thin air and if H/Hr at least in book6 happens the reader skip back through the books and get that it was all the way hinted like Quierell in PS/SS or the Timeturner in POA.
If you doubt JKR could really do this with H/Hr than look at all this books where she played with our mind.

[Sarmi]

Hey guys! Great posts! :clap: :clap:

Grace - Your sig is making me :blush:

Now, to AK's question from the previous thread.

Does perfume have romantic connotations?

In all honesty and no shipping connections, no. Perfume is a standard gift to give a girl.

If your best friend, who you have been completely platonic with for five years, gave you perfume, would you immediately make a move based on the romantic connotations of perfume?

Me, personally, no. It depends on the type of girl to judge the reaction. Hermione is not the frivolous type, she doesn't pretty herself up. So, by saying that she doesn't wear perfume is not too much of a stretch.

As I have said before, perfume is a standard girl gift. Because it's such a standard gift, we really can't tell if Ron put a lot of thought into it. Hermione's reaction to this "romantic gift", "really unusual", wasn't very supportive of her feelings or any encouragement for Ron. It just wasn't a very good gift for Ron to give her.

See ya later!

Sarmi

[Mad-I Moody]

Do you realise that you sound exactly like a H/Hr shipper? This are exactly the same question which H/Hr shipper asked after the King Cross kiss.
Why not a hug? This shows much more comfort why a kiss? This do show everything and nothing at the same time. This on the King Cross wasn't a good luck kiss. What was it than? A supporting kiss? Say I'm with you or is it just was it is a kiss?
Did Ron see it or not? Or was nobody there who could be suspicious?

See you can ask this about both kiss.

A great point, and one I made myself on the old thread. :) Neither of these kisses can be used to prove anything one way or the other. The intentions behind them are not clear, and only up to interpretation. If Hermione's kiss to Ron meant nothing, then it is an equally vaild assumption that Hermione's kiss to Harry meant nothing. If her kiss to Ron meant something, then we must also assume that her kiss to Harry meant something (gosh, she sounds like a bit of a player, huh? ;) ). Just another bit of "textual evidence" that is basically inconclusive either way...

[SeniorFishy]

The Kiss before the game could have been used to distract Ron from looking at those badges that the slytherin made. Also it could be read that Harry gets kissed too. However since at the end of GoF Hermione kisses Harry, it kinda makes it concrete that it most likely means nothing.

[Sirius83]

There is just one thing you guys are overlooking, and i've mentioned it before.

I've said in the past that both kisses were platonic, however - i believe JKR used the Kings Cross one to hint at something in the future. In other words, the kiss was platonic, but JKR used one to drop a hint. Why the Kings Cross? I draw to your attention this bit right here:

'Bye, Harry!' said Hermione, and she did something she had never done before, and kissed him on the cheek.

Note that JKR felt the need to bring special attention to that kiss. The kiss itself is platonic, but it seems JKR wanted to draw special attention to it, unlike the one in OOTP.

[FlyingPhoenix]

If her kiss to Ron meant something, then we must also assume that her kiss to Harry meant something (gosh, she sounds like a bit of a player, huh? ). Just another bit of "textual evidence" that is basically inconclusive either way...

That is what I try to say in canon isn't a moment which is 100% only R/Hr you can always interpret it different even turn around and say this is H/Hr.
But by H/Hr there are moments which R/hr not has. Even if you say this moments just platonic they are still 100% H/Hr no buts and no anything.

This is another problem with R/Hr

[Dreamprincess288]

It seems as if both kisses cancel each other out. Neither an R/Hr shipper or an H/Hr shipper can come out and say "Well the Hermione/______ kiss meant more." Both were done at times where Harry and Ron were in need of a little comfort because of something they were about to experience. Hermione is their best girl friend, so if she doesn't give them a good luck kiss what do you expect? Ron to lean over and give Harry a kiss on the cheek so he'll feel better? I'm not gonna get into slash here but being that I'm 15 I'll just say that a hug/kiss is a very comforting and normal thing to do to one of your best friends. My best friends from theater do the same thing, right before we go on for a show we give everyone a quick hug or a kiss and it makes us feel better. I really don't see anything romantic about the two kisses from Hermione's point of view. However, it's the reaction of the two guys which differs and that's what you should be looking at. ;)

[FlyingPhoenix]

However, it's the reaction of the two guys which differs and that's what you should be looking at.

Right but this don't tell us anything what we not already knew.

[Sirius83]

Ah, but Dreamprincess, Ron's feelings are not in question, so we come back to who Hermione likes.

But doesn't the fact that the JKR felt the need to emphasise that the GOF kiss was "something she had never done before" make it somewhat suspicious? AGain, the kisses may both be platonic, but JKR wanted to draw our attention to one for some reason.

[FlyingPhoenix]

But doesn't the fact that the JKR felt the need to emphasise that the GOF kiss was "something she had never done before" make it somewhat suspicious? AGain, the kisses may both be platonic, but JKR wanted to draw our attention to one for some reason.

This isn't the only thing what is suspicious. IMO is it very suspicious that after GoF was out she said in a Interview or in a TV-show that she think about King Cross as a romantical place because her own parents did meet there. This one sounds awul suspicious in my ears.

[Dreamprincess288]

Ah, but Dreamprincess, Ron's feelings are not in question, so we come back to who Hermione likes.

*Laughs at the fact that we used to think that after OOTP we would finally know who Hermione likes, but look at us, we're back to the same question again!* :lol:

As for JKR's emphasis, you may be right, there may be a reason that she emphasised that kiss a bit more, I never read into it as being romantic but it may be, we'll just have to see where she takes the story.

[JofpGallagher]

I don't remember myself giving my opinion in this thread...well...this is what I think so far:
***Ron and Hermione
***Harry and we don't know her yet. (Not Ginny nor Cho)
Unfortunately, book 5 was way too much centered in Harry so we had few new hints about future love among characters. :sigh:

[FlyingPhoenix]

"I've told her I'll let her out when we get back to London," said Hermione. "I've put an unbreakable charm on the jar, you see, sp she can't transform. And I've told her she's keep her quill to herself for a whole year. See if she can't break the habit of writing horrible lies about people."

This is very interest to know that in book6 Rita Skeeter will be able to write her lovely storys again.
That include off course what she saw between H/Hr for some reason I get this feeling this kiss on King Cross might come back in Book6 if RS did saw it.
I mean Rita might want some revange on Hermione :evil:

[Grace Granger]

Once I mentioned that in canon is some lack off feelings by Harry this is always if it comes to Hermione. I mean the only time we read emotions about her its as he think she might be dead. In all other instance JKR just don't describe it. R/Hr and H/G say its because they aren't there but thats to simple. They aren't describe to let his feelings about Hermione in the dark. Its not negative or posstive feelings if Hermione hugs him in PS/SS or as she was petriefied he was more as numb in that scene as he saw her. In PoA about this fight and as they all reunited. In GoF as Ron ask her to the ball, its like Harry isn't even there. At the Ball or the kiss in OotP as she again hugs him.
All this is without any reaction without any feelings. Just get it straight she is his friend even as author you don't want H/Hr than you might write about his concern or that he is shocked. But what is Harrys lack of emotions in conection with Hermione is because off the illusion of R/Hr?

I need to explain in OotP Harry start to think often about Hermione and hears her voice in his mindm shows the first time emotions as something happens to her or as they argue. JKR said this book is that big because the reader don't want be clueless in book6 if something in surprise happens. That he sit there and shake the head and ask where was that? Are there any hints in the other books?
If JKR will really bring H/Hr in a way she did it in PS/SS with Snape/Quirell than she have to create an illusion off R/Hr that say there are obvious hints and the reader think "Ha, this two will go together!" Now for this illusion JKR need to cut out Harrys emotions in connection off Hermione it would destroy this illusion if Harry is concerned in COS or blush about the kiss in GoF or if we get Harrys thoughts as Hermione kiss Ron. In OotP JKR do give suddenly more if not real hints for H/Hr and even emotions from Harrys part shows that his mind sound like Hermione or that he think very much in connection to her. So it won't be complett out off thin air and if H/Hr at least in book6 happens the reader skip back through the books and get that it was all the way hinted like Quierell in PS/SS or the Timeturner in POA.
If you doubt JKR could really do this with H/Hr than look at all this books where she played with our mind.


I LOVE this post right here, FP! :clap: I agree with it because I myself have thought about it. There are times (not all the time) that we do not know what Harry is thinking or feeling. Is this what you mean FP, or am I going coming out from left field?

Sarmi I'm happy that I make you :blush: :rotfl:

Originally posted by Mad-I Moody
Neither of these kisses can be used to prove anything one way or the other.

So true, but....

Originally posted by Sirius83
But doesn't the fact that the JKR felt the need to emphasise that the GOF kiss was "something she had never done before" make it somewhat suspicious? AGain, the kisses may both be platonic, but JKR wanted to draw our attention to one for some reason.

So true, too, enough to make me reconsider climbing up Hawk's tree. So I'll just sway in the water between HMS Heron and HMS Harmony, more towards the Harmony side of course.

Why would JKR point out to use that "little" detail? Perhaps this is the start of Harry's subconscious feelings/reactions towards Hermione which JKR is displaying to us bit by bit, as FP mentioned. Their feelings for one another is a gradual process of the subconscious to the conscious.

EDIT: FP, maybe she'll write about how Hermione was acting in defense to Harry in the Three Broomsticks! :D

[Sirius83]

Oh, we have tons of new hints JofpGallagher...problem is none of them are able to tell us for sure where JKR is going, and this debate is proof of it...

[FlyingPhoenix]

I LOVE this post right here. I agree with it because I myself have thought about it. There are times (not all the time) that we do not know what Harry is thinking or feeling. Is this what you mean FP, or am I going coming out from left field?

That is what I mean. Its often as if Harry just do nothing only act like a machine

[Mad-I Moody]

Well, JKR puts an emphasis on how Ron reacts to Hermione's kiss, too.
"Ron seemed to come to himself slightly as they walked back across the Great Hall. He touched the spot on his face where Hermione had kissed him, looking puzzled, as though he was not quite sure what had just happened."

I see this as equal to "she did something she had never done before"

Obviously, it affects both Ron and Harry -- surprises them more than anything, I would say from how I interpret the texts -- when Hermione kisses them on the cheek. Emphasis is placed on both kisses.

[JofpGallagher]

Oh, we have tons of new hints JofpGallagher...problem is none of them are able to tell us for sure where JKR is going, and this debate is proof of it...
Well, I'm now re-reading OotP fro second time...very slow since I've been very busy, but I will pay a lot of attention to love details and see if I can contribute in this thread with more concise thoughts!

[_BT_]

new thread? well, i suppose it has to happen every 2000 posts or so.. and we already have 2 pages here... lol, there'll probably be more than 5 by the end of the day. anyway, first post in the new thread

sone: You know Hawk, your post about the Christmas gifts just brought up a weird thought in my head. JKR supposedly said that Harry will end with someone who has been there since "the beginning" Well in the last chapter of GOF called "the beginning" Hermione kisses Harry on the cheek. Hmmm....ain't that something?

lol, good observation

sone:Anyway, I think Harry and Hermione will have one of those "magic" moments when he finally tells her what the prophecy said about him and Voldemort.

interesting. yeah, this could be the scene where feelings are revealed.

sone: Definitely Mike. I think Hermione would be very lonely without him. That is not to say that she does not have Ron, but Harry and Hermione are different. It does not seem surprising now what Hagrid said about Hermione being upset and feeling lonely not talking to either Harry or Ron. She was extremely busy and not getting much sleep but still found time to watch Harry play Quidditch and did not sit next to Ron.

true true. if something happened to harry, well.. everything would be different. the ron and hermione relationship might even fall apart. in any case, we know hr/h share something special. like your last comment about quidditch.

sone: Hearing what that prophecy would just be too much I think. I honestly do not know how Harry is going to tell or explain it to her.

it'll be hard for sure, but it's coming

Turambar: So Ron's never had to face the sight of Hermione whimpering with fear [at Grawp] in Harry's arms.

wonder what he'd think?

Mad-I Moody: Doesn't it say that she "clung to Harry behind the tree, shaking and whimpering"? This doesn't mean that Harry took her in his arms now, does it? I mean, I thought of it more like she was clinging to his arm, or cowering behind Harry, not embracing him. Not that this is a huge deal or anything...but, then again, I'm a R/Hr shipper!

not necessarily an embrace, but it sounds suggestive

sone: Exactly Turambar. Harry has always been the one Hermione has stayed close to. I do not think Ron has been aware of it as of yet because he has not really been there but even when he is, does not notice that Hermione stays close to him. Makes you wonder if he saw Hermione kiss Harry in GOF. It never said whether he did or not.

probably not or he'd probably say something about it... or then again he might not. could go either way on this one.

Mad-I Moody: So Hermione gets Harry out of a room after he's been sulking for a day. OK, and let's even say it was significant that JKR chose to write Hermione as the one who got him out. Why is in not then significant that JKR chose Ginny to be the one who begins to truly break down Harry's defenses -- it says, after she tells him what it was like to be possesed by LV, that "Harry hardly dared believe her, yet his heart was lightening almost in spite of himself." So in this scene as a whole, Hermione is not the "only one" to reach Harry - she gets him out of the room, Ginny begins to break his sulky mood, Hermione interjects with support, and then Ron seals the deal with "You didn't leave your bed, mate."

i actually agree with you there. don't see anything in the room sequence

ronrocks: I would love to hop aboard the HMS Harmony! I am so amazed to see how much Harry and Hermione's friendship has grown with each book, and I believe that by the end of Book 7 we will see this friendship develop into love.

exactly.. a natural development that i think we'll see. and welcome btw

Mad-I Moody: Now, if this was a mutual embrace that JKR really wanted to signify something deeper between Harry and Hermione, why wouldn't she word it "Harry and Hermione clung together"? Instead, it is "Hermione clung to Harry," who is, by the way, the only person in proximity to her that isn't either 16 feet tall, or very close to the 16 foot tall creature.

ok i agree with your first point (not quoted here) that cling can mean many things. i interpreted as an embrace but it's not real clear. secondly, if it was an embrace, (even though i like h/hr), i agree that in that in this situation there probably no romantic relations-- the embrace is due to a feeling of fear, and security from being with harry. however, from that, one could possibly draw romantic conclusions.

Mad Eye Mike: Since the kiss meant nothing, there was no reason to hide it from Harry's view.

exactly. a friendly moment, nothing more

Grace Granger: I don't see this as Hermione accidentally leading Ron on at all. They're friends and if she wants to show him support by giving him a kiss on the cheek then so be it. It'll be Ron's fault if he thinks it's because she likes him, especially since she has not hinted that she is interested any other time and she's still writing to Krum and doesn't know what is going on with their relationship, or friendship, whatever it is at this point.

yup

Mad-I Moody: I can understand the view that this was a harmless, good-luck kiss. However, I don't understand how it could mean nothing. Why would Hermione do it, then? Why not a pat on the back, a handshake, a side-hug, or a wink?

because they're still good friends and i guess it's her way of showing support, so the kiss is acceptable.

Auror77: He said he thought it was a brilliant idea then she's like 'Oh yes, if it was darling Hermione's idea!"! This time he didn't try to defend himself by saying there wasn't anything going on between them, he just warned her saying, "Don't start crying again!"

exactly. if he didn't feel anything at all, i'm sure he would of said something to that remark. but it's also possible that he was getting by miffed by cho's behavior and just didn't care any more

Mad-I Moody: Wouldn't a pat on the arm or shoulder or a one-armed hug have been affectionate AND supportive? something like: "Good luck, Ron," said Hermione as she reached out and patted his hand affectionately. "And you, Harry -" Why a kiss?

who knows? maybe it's hermione's favorite method of showing support. regardless, it's still a friendly moment unless proven otherwise. and i don't think it can be proven to have romantic connections just because she chose to kiss him.

Mad-I Moody: A great point, and one I made myself on the old thread. Neither of these kisses can be used to prove anything one way or the other. The intentions behind them are not clear, and only up to interpretation. If Hermione's kiss to Ron meant nothing, then it is an equally vaild assumption that Hermione's kiss to Harry meant nothing. If her kiss to Ron meant something, then we must also assume that her kiss to Harry meant something (gosh, she sounds like a bit of a player, huh? ). Just another bit of "textual evidence" that is basically inconclusive either way...

i actually agree there. again, almost all the 'moments' in the book can be argued easily in one way or another. the reason why i support h/hr more, i guess, is just because i interpreted these moments in an h/hr fashion when reading and the r/hr moments as 'friendly' things. everything up to this point is all up to interpretation, however.

Sirius83: 'Bye, Harry!' said Hermione, and she did something she had never done before, and kissed him on the cheek. Note that JKR felt the need to bring special attention to that kiss. The kiss itself is platonic, but it seems JKR wanted to draw special attention to it, unlike the one in OOTP.

true. the ron kiss didn't have the special attention. thus pointing towards the h/hr kiss having possible deeper implications than the r/hr.

FlyingPhoenix: This isn't the only thing what is suspicious. IMO is it very suspicious that after GoF was out she said in a Interview or in a TV-show that she think about King Cross as a romantical place because her own parents did meet there. This one sounds awul suspicious in my ears.

interesting. i also used to think that both kisses were more or less just friendly. but in light of sirius83's point and this new evidence... it seems more and more like more weight is being put on the h/hr moment.

Mad-I Moody: Well, JKR puts an emphasis on how Ron reacts to Hermione's kiss, too.
"Ron seemed to come to himself slightly as they walked back across the Great Hall. He touched the spot on his face where Hermione had kissed him, looking puzzled, as though he was not quite sure what had just happened."

true... that would kinda defeat sirius83's point... but still look to FP's post about king's cross. this is hardly conclusive, but i still find it suggestive.

[Sirius83]

Mad-I-Moody: Except that one shows us Ron's side and the other Hermione's. However, Hermione's draw of attention pointed at H/Hr while Ron's pointed at R/Hr. We do know where Ron's feelings lie though, but we don't know where Hermione's feelings lie. That's why the "never done before" line is so important, it gives us a little hint of where her feelings lie.

[Grace Granger]

Well, JKR puts an emphasis on how Ron reacts to Hermione's kiss, too.
"Ron seemed to come to himself slightly as they walked back across the Great Hall. He touched the spot on his face where Hermione had kissed him, looking puzzled, as though he was not quite sure what had just happened."

I see this as equal to "she did something she had never done before"

Obviously, it affects both Ron and Harry -- surprises them more than anything, I would say from how I interpret the texts -- when Hermione kisses them on the cheek. Emphasis is placed on both kisses.

Well it affects Ron in a different way than it does Harry. We know for a fact that Ron likes Hermione so the impact maybe more so for him than for Harry because of his feelings.

[haycheng]

Mad-I Moody
IMHO, The action of Ron is not important because he is aleady having a crush on Hermione. It provide no new information. The kiss on GoF is different. It is that Harry take notice Hermione has never done it before(Harry pay more attention to Hermione then we let on). On Hermione's part, It is the first time Hermione do anything like this.

To Grace Granger
Still want to go bird hunt? My F-14E tomcat is loaded and ready.

[_BT_]

Well it affects Ron in a different way than it does Harry. We know for a fact that Ron likes Hermione so the impact maybe more so for him than for Harry because of his feelings.

lol, how do we know this is a fact. does it explicitly say so anywhere in the book?

[Grace Granger]

lol, how do we know this is a fact. does it explicitly say so anywhere in the book?


Oops...you got me there! ;) :rotfl: No it does not state in the book that Ron likes Hermione. I suppose I meant it's a fact here on this board because everyone agrees that Ron likes Hermione in one way or another. ;)

haycheng, Thank you very much. I won't aim yet, until Hawk actually responds to my question.

[noddwyd]

JKR supposedly said that Harry will end with someone who has been there since "the beginning" Well in the last chapter of GOF called "the beginning" Hermione kisses Harry on the cheek. Hmmm....ain't that something?

When did she say that? If that's true, then doesn't this prove that Harry will, in fact, 'end up' with somebody?

[Mad-I Moody]

Except that one shows us Ron's side and the other Hermione's. However, Hermione's draw of attention pointed at H/Hr while Ron's pointed at R/Hr. We do know where Ron's feelings lie though, but we don't know where Hermione's feelings lie. That's why the "never done before" line is so important, it gives us a little hint of where her feelings lie.

I guess I just don't see how Harry noticing that Hermione had never before kissed him on the cheek indicates anything about Hermione's feelings. For all we know, she had never kissed Ron on the cheek either. Harry notices that she did something she had never done before - I could see someone arguing that this indicates Harry's feelings (even though I think that is a stretch, too - since he doesn't seem to reflect on it the way Ron did in OotP, at least, not that we see) before I can see how it indicates Hermione's feelings.

[Dreamprincess288]

Well, JKR puts an emphasis on how Ron reacts to Hermione's kiss, too.
"Ron seemed to come to himself slightly as they walked back across the Great Hall. He touched the spot on his face where Hermione had kissed him, looking puzzled, as though he was not quite sure what had just happened."

I see this as equal to "she did something she had never done before"

Obviously, it affects both Ron and Harry -- surprises them more than anything, I would say from how I interpret the texts -- when Hermione kisses them on the cheek. Emphasis is placed on both kisses.

I agree, Ron is "puzzled" and "not sure what happened" because it's the first time Hermione ever did anything like that. Harry thought the same thing but said it more directly.

[SkyHi1825]

ok hi everyone i've been reading and finding all these theorys interesting but about the kiss at the end of GOF there are only two ways to know if this and the kiss she gave to Ron is of any importance.
If it says so in the next two books or if they are shown in the movies. if they are significant than they will be alot of emphisis on the scene..... IMO

[Sirius83]

Yes, but the point i'm getting at, is that Hermione's feelings are what are in question right now. How does the boys reactions to her kiss say her feelings? They say the boys feelings, not hers. The reactions of the boys show the boys feelings at that point in time - not Hermione's.

Once again i raise that point of never done before though. JKR has in other instances shown Ron's feelings. We have nothing much going for Hermione, yet JKR decides to draw special attention to the GOF kiss. What is significant here is while the kiss itself may be platonic, the author may be trying to draw our attention to a bit of foreshadowing.

I fail to see how Ron's reaction shows Hermione's feelings. Both seem to be completely platonic on Hermione's part. My interest is in that never done before line JKR stuck in there. It is totally unnecessary unless she's trying to tell us something.

[Dreamprincess288]

It's not that I'm saying that Hermione's kiss to Ron shows feelings... I'm trying to say that I don't think either of them show Hermione's feelings!

[ronrocks]

Thanks Grace Granger for the welcome!

I think it is the fact that JKR prefaces the kiss with Harry noticing that Hermione "did something she had never done before" that makes it important. We have Harry spending more time with Hermione in GOF and noticing how pretty she looks at the Yule Ball and then she emphasizes that kiss. I would not have really thought that much about that kiss without the emphasis put on it. When I read this it was the first time I started to think about Harry and Hermione as a couple. Then I went back and reread the books and found many subtle clues.

I did not realize that Kings Cross was a romantic place for JKR...interesting.

[hermy_weasley2]

Hi everyone. I'm new to this thread. Well, I was new to good ole part 2, but I think you were all already engaged in your own debates eough to notice anything else. Right now I'm looking forwards to a Ron/Hemione relationship as well as Harry and Ginny. I think there's a good chance Ron/Hermione will happen in book 6, but Harry and Ginny will cycle through a couple more love interests before they land on in each other, probably in bookseven or some kind of epilogue at the end.

I know you all have VERY complicated reasons for arguing whatever it is that you do, but I'm going to go back to the basics.First Ron/Hermione:
1. Ron has been very defensive when it comes to Hermione ever since COS, almost protective.
2.Ron has always been jealous at the slightest mention of Hermione noticing anyone else.
3.Hermione's reaction to Fleur kissing Ron on the cheek, and Ron's crush ---? on Fleur seems a lot like jealousy.
4. Hermione's now famous words in the "Yule Brawl" about asking her first next time. Also, Hermione's reaction to Ron's lack of emotion towards eveything. I see this as frustration.
5.Ron and Hermione's time spent alone in OoTP as prefects and over the summer. In other words, their time spent away from Harry is a big clue.
6.The awkward handshake after Harry's hug in COS makes it seem as though the are too shy to do anything else.
7. They are compared to Mr. and Mrs. Weasley in OoTP, and they often argue like an old married couple.
8. Hermione's now famous kiss she gave Ron on the cheek in OoTP, and Ron's reaction. The mood is different here than it was when she kissed Harry on the cheek in GoF. It was less tense. Harry had just witnessed the return of the greates Dark wizard of all time, Ron needed good luck in a Quidditch match.
9. Hermione's letter to Victor Krum. As was pointed out, there's nothing going for this guy except fame and Quidditch skill, which Hermione can have in Harry if she wanted that.I think Hermione might be keeping in touch with Krum to make Ron jealous so that Ron will finally admit his feelings for her. I think she's too socially...challenged to admit them herself.

Now for Harry/Ginny
1. I dont't think Ginny's over her crush, yet.
2. They share the connection of both being very talented in Quidditch and wizardry/witchcraft.
3.They share the experience of almost being killed by Voldemort. Harry realises this now, Ginny made sure of that when she reminds that she is the only person he knows that has ever been posossed by Voldemort. I think that's good for Harry. He needs to know that even though his problems are unique, other people experience similar situations. I remember this from psycology somewhere.....
4. All the times in OoTp when Ginny's name or something about Ginny just randomly popped up. This is of course when Harry learns she replaced him as Seeker, when Hermione tells them she is dating Micheal Corner and when Fred mentions Ginny's Bat Bogey curse. I think this, along with the event above, is JKR's way of forcing Harry, and therefore us as readers, to notice Ginny. This also includes all all the times we saw ginny's talent/ability to cause trouble come up suddenly.
5. The library chat with the Easter egg. Enough said...

Anyway, that's all that there is that's defeinate. The rest is just speculation until Book 6 is published.

[FlyingPhoenix]

I'm positive that the H/Hr kiss on King Cross will appeare on screne different as the R/Hr in the great hall just because off the place where it dos happen. I think this is an important fact that we forget the place where this kiss are happening. A kiss on a Station or a kiss in the school.

This need a closer look if you ask me this scenario at the King Cross: There are trains on either side people say hello or good bye and in the mddle of this are two teenagers. That girl do kiss him on the cheek. The sentence "she did something what she never did before!" suggest that the time stand still so you could recorgnise this.

By R/Hr. Its in the great hall in the school. People around, young people speaking are exiting about Quiditch. Harry stands on Rons side is about to go as Hermione stand on tip toes and give Ron a kiss on the cheek its like a normal thing.

[Dreamprincess288]

:welcome: hermy_weasley2! Nice to have another R/Hr and H/G shipper on the boards! I'd reply to your post but I think I'll wait for an H/Hr to rip it apart before I go back and try and put it back together again! ;) Hope you stick around!

[SkyHi1825]

hermy_weasley2 i see were u get the R/Hr moments but the H/G moments are very VERY one sided. I agree that Ginny must still have feelings for harry but harry still refers to her as rons sister that, for me anyways killed that ship for me well for now anyway. they are still possable but the way OOTP went it be so much better for Neville and Ginny to hook up :cool:


Oh and hi every one i've been reading you posts for a while now and finally decided to enter this heated debate. After reading all 5 books over I have decided to ship H/Hr beause there relation ship seems so strong to me and the way they act torward each. they just seem so perfect for each other :D

But i also made an observation wouldnt it also help defeat voldomort if his love intrest is the one type of people voldemort would like to get ride of... Muggle borns.

ok after re reading your post hermy_weasley2 there are alot of opprotunities for harry to notice ginny but he doesnt see her Quidditch Cup winning catch and he's to preoccupied to pay attention to whats going on with ginny. i just dont see it happening after OOTP but i may be surprised.

[SeniorFishy]

I've gone through OotP again and have noticed that when Harry has a crush on Cho, his feelings are preety easy to tell. He is awkward around her and gets a funny feeling in his stomach and everything. Preety normal feelings for a boy who has a crush on a girl, but the important thing is that I do not think that Harry had any types of these feelings with anyone else. He's much more comfortable around preety much every other girl in school including the Fleur girl in GoF. My point is that I really do not think that Harry has any romantics feelings at the end of OotP. He no longer really seems to be bothered by Cho yet he doesn't really have any of the other characteristics of having feelings for someone else.

A lot of people have gone to show how much Harry cares for Hermione and while I do believe that they will end up together personally I have to admit that most of these signs are nothing more that being compatible. Yes Harry likes Hermione, they're best friends. Yes Harry cares for Hermione, they are best friends, they have grown quite close to each other but is this anything greater than friendship? I'm not so sure.

I'm not trying to discredit the possiblity of H/Hr happening, I know plenty of people who Marry someone who was like their best friend in school. Infact I do think they are on the right track to moving their relationship further, however..


I really dont have a point... arg

[Fairydust]

I can't believe that being away for just one day has made me miss so much. I still stand by my R/H and H/G. Bring on the debating. :)

[Fairydust]

This isn't the only thing what is suspicious. IMO is it very suspicious that after GoF was out she said in a Interview or in a TV-show that she think about King Cross as a romantical place because her own parents did meet there. This one sounds awul suspicious in my ears.

Well if you think about it the first wizard girl Harry met was at King's Cross and she was Ginny. Ginny was the first wizard girl he met at the train station. Romance could be there. :agree:

Sorry for double posting.

[SkyHi1825]

But then again his first kiss was at Kings cross with Hermione.

[ronrocks]

SeniorFishy, I don't think that Harry has romantic feeling about Hermione either. But I do think that the way Harry and Hermione relate to each other now is important in regards to a future relationship. With each passing book we see their relationship grow and mature. We see Harry come to trust and respect Hermione's abilities more and more. We watch how well they work together. We even see Hermione's voice in Harry's head. I believe a strong relationship grows out of, love, respect, understanding and honesty and Harry and Hermione's relationship have these in spades. I love watching H and H's friendship grow with each book, and I believe we will watch it grow into a strong and lasting love in the next 2 books.

[Fairydust]

But the first girl he met was Ginny at King's Cross. I'm not trying to say that that kiss on King's Cross didn't mean anything. It's just that as an R/H shipper I don't really see anything in it. but that's just my humble opinion. :)

[FlyingPhoenix]

Well if you think about it the first wizard girl Harry met was at King's Cross and she was Ginny. Ginny was the first wizard girl he met at the train station. Romance could be there.

Meet say I meet someone face to face not just watching and Harry did Ginny only watching he didn't know her and didn't learn to know her on King Cross. Not a introduce like between the twins and Harry. It was just looking how a family works. So he didn't meet her. He saw her and that is different.

Remember how JKR came to Harry Potter to this story? She sat in a train and suddenly she saw an imagination off a black haired boy going through the train. Its interest that Harry did meet Hermione nearly like that at the train.

[ronrocks]

Yes, he met Ginny at Kings Cross but she was acting like a "fan"...not really a great beginning and not very romantic.

[ronrocks]

Remember how JKR came to Harry Potter to this story? She sat in a train and suddenly she saw an imagination off a black haired boy going through the train. Its interest that Harry did meet Hermione nearly like that at the train.

Wow! That is really interesting. I never even thought about that.

[AvadaKedavra]

Not another thread! To the old timers, is this a record? The thread has been through hundreds of pages and it hasn't been closed. :wow:

Back on topic.

Hawk

but it doesn't immediately have a romantic connotation.

*sigh. Misreading the question.

The question was- does it have a romantic connotation, NOT “is the romantic connotation of perfume the most obvious one?”

Connotation- according to my trusty word processor, the synonyms of connotation are:

nuance, suggestion, implication, undertone, association

I was asking if perfume as a gift would have a romantic [ADD ANY ONE OF THOSE WORDS ABOVE]. Now, as we have established many times over the history of this thread, there are several ways of interpreting something. You have just denied that perfume can possibly have a romantic [ADD ANY ONE OF THOSE WORDS ABOVE]. Fine, if that’s how you are going to do things.

The perfume comes off as a polite afterthought.

And? In my theory I have made it crystal clear why Hermione might have behaved like the way she did. BTW, where did you get the “polite afterthought” thing from? From your interpretation. I’ve given mine from the text. I’ve looked at the text and explained why Hermione behaved as she did. You’ve looked at the text and thought, oh, it’s a polite afterthought, based on your interpretation.

BTW, are you American? Because it’s “grammar” over here. :D

BT

the two kisses are written in the same fashion in the books

No they are not. Harry reacts indifferently to Hermione’s kiss, only to notice that she had never done that before, whereas Ron’s kiss reaction is more dramatic and marked. BTW, if so many people claim that Hermione had “got the point” regarding the Yule Brawl, explain to me why she kissed Ron, with the suspicion that he had feelings for her?

Grace Granger

Why hasn't Hermione mentioned anything about her relationship with Krum!?

She has. She gave a comment that they were “pen-pals” to Ron, although not directly- i.e. she didn’t go up to Ron and say “Viktor and I are only pen pals.” (that would be SO blatantly obvious).

On the rare occasion Hermione is affectionate and this is one those moments.

And realise that there are more and more affectionate moments in OOTP from Hermione to Ron. More than Harry, I would think but that’s debatable. :D

Flying Phoenix

This on the King Cross wasn't a good luck kiss. What was it than? A supporting kiss? Say I'm with you or is it just was it is a kiss?

It was a kiss for Harry not long after he had suffered a terrible ordeal, a kiss for Harry just before he was facing a horrible, horrible summer with the Dursleys with no one to face-to-face confide in about seeing someone die and seeing the person who murdered his parents come back to power. Yes, it was a supporting kiss that’s for sure. Context counts. (at least, for me it does.)

Sirius83

Ron's feelings are not in question,

Or are they? I was under the impression that Hawk, BT and a few others were implying that this wasn’t the case, that it was questionable that Ron did not have feelings for Hermione. In any case, thank you for the confidence/agreement vote, Sirius. :p

I fail to see how Ron's reaction shows Hermione's feelings. Both seem to be completely platonic on Hermione's part. My interest is in that never done before line JKR stuck in there. It is totally unnecessary unless she's trying to tell us something.

The point is, that it was Harry who noticed that Hermione had done something that she had never did before. (If you ask why, I’ve explained why somewhere above). And from Ron’s reaction, he is thinking something along those lines too.

JofpGallagher

Unfortunately, book 5 was way too much centered in Harry so we had few new hints about future love among characters.

Exactly. It’s Harry in this book. It’s focused on Harry this book. JKR has plenty of time to develop the R/Hr romance, it’s already 3/5 the way there. :D

DreamPrincess288

I agree, Ron is "puzzled" and "not sure what happened" because it's the first time Hermione ever did anything like that. Harry thought the same thing but said it more directly.

:rotfl: Sorry, but I’m just laughing because that really beautifully puts the “something she had never done” argument away. And I’m laughing because of “said it more directly”- it’s Harry’s POV!

SeniorFishy

A lot of people have gone to show how much Harry cares for Hermione and while I do believe that they will end up together personally I have to admit that most of these signs are nothing more that being compatible. Yes Harry likes Hermione, they're best friends. Yes Harry cares for Hermione, they are best friends, they have grown quite close to each other but is this anything greater than friendship? I'm not so sure.

Very honestly said. :clap:

Signing out,

Avada

[Fairydust]

Yeah but when Harry and Ron first met Hermione they didn't like her. And Hermione introduced herself to Ron first and then she recognised Harry. could be something there. that's just my humble opinion though.

(this is in regards of the post before AK's)

[Bloodpop]

If you get out a copy of the first book, most of the dialogue and dynamics in that first meeting with Hermione, are between her and Ron.

"You've got dirt on your nose."

[DRxD]

"However, it's the reaction of the two guys which differs and that's what you should be looking at."

Problem is, when Hermoine kisses Harry, we dont get a reaction from anyone.

[Mad-I Moody]

Except that one shows us Ron's side and the other Hermione's. However, Hermione's draw of attention pointed at H/Hr while Ron's pointed at R/Hr. We do know where Ron's feelings lie though, but we don't know where Hermione's feelings lie. That's why the "never done before" line is so important, it gives us a little hint of where her feelings lie.

Sirius83, I thought you were saying, in this post, that the "never done before" line indicated something about Hermione's feelings.

But then you said:
Yes, but the point i'm getting at, is that Hermione's feelings are what are in question right now. How does the boys reactions to her kiss say her feelings? They say the boys feelings, not hers. The reactions of the boys show the boys feelings at that point in time - not Hermione's.

This I agree with, and I think it is along the lines of what I was trying to say. :D

Once again i raise that point of never done before though. JKR has in other instances shown Ron's feelings. We have nothing much going for Hermione, yet JKR decides to draw special attention to the GOF kiss. What is significant here is while the kiss itself may be platonic, the author may be trying to draw our attention to a bit of foreshadowing.

I fail to see how Ron's reaction shows Hermione's feelings. Both seem to be completely platonic on Hermione's part. My interest is in that never done before line JKR stuck in there. It is totally unnecessary unless she's trying to tell us something.


I just don't see it as forshadowing. I think that the only thing she is trying to show us is that Hermione had never before kissed Harry on the cheek. This points to the fact that one of his best friends recognized that he had been through something traumatic and was offering a platonic extention of comfort (which, by the way, Mrs. Weasley also did, when she "hugged Harry very tightly").

I feel like JKR made a much bigger deal out of the OotP kiss than she did over the GoF kiss. The GoF kiss got about 20 words "screen time" - almost 3 lines, while the OotP kiss got about 6 lines of "screen time."

[Dreamprincess288]

AK: Great Post, once again! :D

[Fairydust]

Mad-I, "screen time" i love it. excellent posts everyone. :D :agree:

[Augurey]

Hello everyone, well i can honestly say that i wasn't prepared for a completly new thread to be opened, but then i guess we do like to discuss Harry's love life so its inevitable really, it had to happen.
By the way great posts Flying Phoenix, you seem to always no what to say to argue for H/Hr, i perticurly liked this post.


originally Posted by FlyingPhoenix

Once I mentioned that in canon is some lack off feelings by Harry this is always if it comes to Hermione. I mean the only time we read emotions about her its as he think she might be dead. In all other instance JKR just don't describe it. R/Hr and H/G say its because they aren't there but thats to simple. They aren't describe to let his feelings about Hermione in the dark. Its not negative or posstive feelings if Hermione hugs him in PS/SS or as she was petriefied he was more as numb in that scene as he saw her. In PoA about this fight and as they all reunited. In GoF as Ron ask her to the ball, its like Harry isn't even there. At the Ball or the kiss in OotP as she again hugs him.
All this is without any reaction without any feelings. Just get it straight she is his friend even as author you don't want H/Hr than you might write about his concern or that he is shocked. But what is Harrys lack of emotions in conection with Hermione is because off the illusion of R/Hr?
I need to explain in OotP Harry start to think often about Hermione and hears her voice in his mindm shows the first time emotions as something happens to her or as they argue. JKR said this book is that big because the reader don't want be clueless in book6 if something in surprise happens. That he sit there and shake the head and ask where was that? Are there any hints in the other books?
If JKR will really bring H/Hr in a way she did it in PS/SS with Snape/Quirell than she have to create an illusion off R/Hr that say there are obvious hints and the reader think "Ha, this two will go together!" Now for this illusion JKR need to cut out Harrys emotions in connection off Hermione it would destroy this illusion if Harry is concerned in COS or blush about the kiss in GoF or if we get Harrys thoughts as Hermione kiss Ron. In OotP JKR do give suddenly more if not real hints for H/Hr and even emotions from Harrys part shows that his mind sound like Hermione or that he think very much in connection to her. So it won't be complett out off thin air and if H/Hr at least in book6 happens the reader skip back through the books and get that it was all the way hinted like Quierell in PS/SS or the Timeturner in POA.
If you doubt JKR could really do this with H/Hr than look at all this books where she played with our mind.

Iv never thought of this before but now that you mention it, there are alot of gaps in the books where Harry's thoughts should be. If i could just go back to the kiss scene? when Hermione kisses Ron, she then says 'and you Harry-' i suppose its left up to the reader to decide whether she gave Harry a kiss too (i think she did, but then i ship H/Hr) but what if she really cut the scene there so that she wouldn't have to write what Harry was thinking at that precise moment, i mean even if he didn't get a kiss there was bound to be some speculation on his part about it, but if he did he could have had a feeling which lasted about a second then was gone before he even realized what it could have meant. The scene then goes to Harry and Ron walking out of the hall Ron in a shock over what just happened and Harry trying to get a look at the badges, right?
Like FP says, maybe JK is trying to keep Harry's feeling in the dark too and fool us with R/Hr. you never know right?

Sorry when i started writing this i had it all in my head what i was going to say, but then i forgot so if i doesn't make sense, just remember i do have a point of some sort, even if its impossible to find. thanks

[Elric]

I just had a thought while reading all the post's regarding the two kisses.

The last act between Harry and Hermione in GOF was a kiss. The first act between Harry and Hermione in OOTP is Hermione running across the room to hug Harry, anybody find this interesting?

Of course Ron could have ran across the room to hug Harry, but maybe Ron isn't very demonstrative :)

[FlyingPhoenix]

Yeah but when Harry and Ron first met Hermione they didn't like her. And Hermione introduced herself to Ron first and then she recognised Harry. could be something there. that's just my humble opinion though.

Thats not exactly right she said who she is but Ron is the one who answer first than Harry. Practicullary she introduce herself to both but Ron answer as first.

But as fast Harry introduce himself Hermione do speak with him. So if you want this interpret this way you could say Ron will get a crush at first on Hermione. Than Harry recorgnise his feelings for her and guess what? She recorgnise and feel it in return!

But I doubt this scene was ever more as just an introduce. Though I did like this scene.

[AvadaKedavra]

Dreamprincess288, no problem. Quality+Quantity are the recicipe for success!

[Dreamprincess288]

I think all of us are starting to mistake friendship with romance a bit (r/h and h/h shippers). Hermione is the only girl in the trio so she can be more expressive. I mean, do you honestly expect Ron and Harry to give each other kisses on the cheek and run and give each other hugs? So for one thing the way the trio expresses themselves varies depending on the person.

Of course Ron could have ran across the room to hug Harry, but maybe Ron isn't very demonstrative

Ron isn't very demonstrative, and neither is Harry. Besides the fact, how demonstrative is he going to be with his [I]male[I] best friend? As for Hermione, both her best friends are guys so she treats them the same. Harry and Ron each have one male best friend and one female so their actions are obviously going to differ depending on which friend they are reacting to.

[SeniorFishy]

The difference in the kisses is preety small in my opinion. There are points both ways but honestly they are the same type of deal.

Harrys:
-Done in front of Mrs Weasley, Uncle Vernon, and Ron/Twins. (no mention of Hermione's parents but they were most likely there too).
-A 'goodbye' kiss
-Knights Cross has some value to JKR
-Harry notices that this is the first time that she kisses anyone

Rons:
-Done infront of most of the school
-A 'good luck' kiss
-Ron was quite 'puzzled' and definately noticed this kiss.

Which would you rather do? Kiss someone in front of your parents or someone infront of your schoolmates?

Would a kiss to signal a goodbye because you were not going to see them for several months be more meaningful than a kiss to show your support and place trust and cheer into someone?

There are also alternative motives in Hermiones kiss. First she says good luck to Ron, kissing him and then good luck to Harry which afterwards there is a time jump of a few seconds. Something is a little odd about that whole situation. But more importantly in my view is that Hermione had just told Harry not to let Ron see the badges, then we are told that Ron is making his way over to the badges and thats when she says goodluck and kisses him. This can totally be viewed as a thing Hermione did to distract Ron from looking at those badges.

'Don't let Ron see what's on those Slytherins' badges,' she whisper urgently.
Harry looked questioningly at her, but she shook her head warningly; Ron had just ambled over to them, looking lost and desperate.
'Good luck, Ron,' said Hermione, standing on tiptoe and kissing him on the cheek. 'And you Harry ---'

[FlyingPhoenix]

Something strange there are so many ships out there and so many people say Hermione isn't a lead character or the main female character, right? Though there are: R/Hr, H/Hr, N/Hr, D/Hr, V/Hr but only H/G, H/Hr, H/C, H/Ll what about Ron?
R/Hr,R/L well thats interest if you ask me.
This girl seem to get every guy :lol:

[AvadaKedavra]

This can totally be viewed as a thing Hermione did to distract Ron from looking at those badges.

So this was the only motive then? In fact, Hermione using her kiss to distract Ron tells us that she knows of the potential effects her kiss would have, if Ron does like her indeed..

If Hermione didn't like Ron back, kissing him would perhaps give him the wrong idea. So why create a bigger problem, to solve a short term one? To me that doesn't make sense- IMO there is an ulterior motive. And that is to give him an hint, which was completely missed BTW. :rotfl:

Signing out,

Avada

[Fairydust]

hermione does seem to be paired up with a lot of people. as with Harry and Ginny, they too, get paired up with a lot of people. Ron, when i read fics with H/Hr he was always paired up with Lavender. now Ron can be paired with Hermione, Luna, Lavender, etc, etc. but i'm betting it's going to be R/Hr, H/G, and just to mention N/L.

[humongoratdropping]

I don't think Hermione is that stupid; she wouldn't kiss Ron in front of the whole school, knowing how Ron would interpret it, by accident. She simply knows about relationships too well; (Harry/Cho discussion); she isn't that stupid to not know the repurcussions of her action.

[SeniorFishy]

If Hermione didn't like Ron back, kissing him would perhaps give him the wrong idea. So why create a bigger problem, to solve a short term one?

Don't girls strive to confuse and perplex guys anyways? Its just a kiss on the cheek, people greet in such fashions in many countries. I'm saying that this kiss meant goodluck and maybe to lead him away from the badges and nothing else. Just as the kiss at the end of GoF meant goodbye and nothing else. Otherwise Hermione is in love with them both.

[Daveydee]

Just a brief comeback on the perfume discussion.

Yes - perfume is seen as a traditional gift of love, originating in biblical times, the most notable being the gift of myrrh from the Magi to the baby Jesus.

Incidentally - please dispense with the idea that Hermione's description of it as unusual as being a euphemism for horrible. Here's the Oxford English Dictionary definition:

unusual: remarkable or interesting because different from or better than others

[humongoratdropping]

Seniorfishy, never spoke a truer word. The girls out there in the world do strive to confuse guys. (I love your sig, too)

Anyway, you have a point. What people in this thread though, are nitpicking about is that the situation was different. Hermione in GoF, I think, was saying goodbye and her way of comforting Harry with the ordeal he went through. In OoTP, the kiss she gave Ron was more casual, more of a goood-luck kiss, something a girlfriend would do. (Note Ron's puzzled expression-what a stereotypical idiot guy (lol)). And notice how Harry really didn't really brood on Hermione's kiss all summer.

[Hawk 92]

AK

I'm your huckleberry.

Now here's my original post

Alot of people pointed to the Christmas gifts as being a sing of shipping so in my usual fashion I went to the book to see what had happened,

Page 503 US version,

"Thanks for the book Harry!" she said happily. "I've been wanting that New Theory of Numerology for ages! And that perfume is really unusal, Ron."

Emphasis JKR.

Now at an intial look it doesn't seem to be alot.
1) The Trio has exchanged gifts. This happens every Christmas.
2) Harry has gotten her a book
3) Ron has gotten her perfume
4) Hermione is thanking both boys for their gifts

Now a slightly deeper look,

I notice the word unusual in front of the perfume gift. This is usually not a good thing. Generally when people refer to an unusual gift it doesn't show that they like it alot. This however is based on personal experience and is subject to interpetation.

The book itself "New Theory of Numerology" is interesting. Hermione's favorite subject is Arithmancy and this book clearly seems to be a part of Arithmancy. Hermione told Harry that she loved Arthimancy and that it was her favorite subject. Harry was listening. Knowing that Hermione loves books and Hermione loves Arithmancy, Harry combined the two. I think it also illiustrates that Harry is not as oblivious to Hermione as is often claimed in many debates. She did tell him it was her favorite subject in POA. Harry heard and Harry remembered.

And now for what's truly interesting. The grammer. Hmm the grammer, that sounds wierd even to me. :)

*Hawk takes out his old grade school english book*

Now after Hermione speaking to Harry the sentence ends with an exclamation point, twice. While thanking him and while telling us what he gave her.

exclamation point
n (1824): a mark ] used esp. after an interjection or exclamation to indicate forcefulutterance or strong feeling--called also exclamation mark

And now the sentence with Ron's gift ends in a period.
period
1: the completion of a cycle, a series of events, or asingle action: conclusion

So while Harry's gift is being given emphasis, strong feeling, and a forceful utterance, Hermione is truly thanking him for the gift. The perfume comes off as a polite afterthought.

Cheers!


The perfume comes off as a polite afterthought.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And? In my theory I have made it crystal clear why Hermione might have behaved like the way she did. BTW, where did you get the “polite afterthought” thing from? From your interpretation. I’ve given mine from the text. I’ve looked at the text and explained why Hermione behaved as she did. You’ve looked at the text and thought, oh, it’s a polite afterthought, based on your interpretation.

Now there is the point you dispute so lets elimate that speculation and see whats left:

Alot of people pointed to the Christmas gifts as being a sing of shipping so in my usual fashion I went to the book to see what had happened,

Page 503 US version,

"Thanks for the book Harry!" she said happily. "I've been wanting that New Theory of Numerology for ages! And that perfume is really unusal, Ron."

Emphasis JKR.

Now at an intial look it doesn't seem to be alot.
1) The Trio has exchanged gifts. This happens every Christmas.
2) Harry has gotten her a book
3) Ron has gotten her perfume
4) Hermione is thanking both boys for their gifts

Now a slightly deeper look,

I notice the word unusual in front of the perfume gift. This is usually not a good thing. Generally when people refer to an unusual gift it doesn't show that they like it alot. This however is based on personal experience and is subject to interpetation.

The book itself "New Theory of Numerology" is interesting. Hermione's favorite subject is Arithmancy and this book clearly seems to be a part of Arithmancy. Hermione told Harry that she loved Arthimancy and that it was her favorite subject. Harry was listening. Knowing that Hermione loves books and Hermione loves Arithmancy, Harry combined the two. I think it also illiustrates that Harry is not as oblivious to Hermione as is often claimed in many debates. She did tell him it was her favorite subject in POA. Harry heard and Harry remembered.

And now for what's truly interesting. The grammer. Hmm the grammer, that sounds wierd even to me. :)

*Hawk takes out his old grade school english book*

Now after Hermione speaking to Harry the sentence ends with an exclamation point, twice. While thanking him and while telling us what he gave her.

exclamation point
n (1824): a mark ] used esp. after an interjection or exclamation to indicate forcefulutterance or strong feeling--called also exclamation mark

And now the sentence with Ron's gift ends in a period.
period
1: the completion of a cycle, a series of events, or asingle action: conclusion

So while Harry's gift is being given emphasis, strong feeling, and a forceful utterance, Hermione is truly thanking him for the gift.

Now its your turn for the challenge AK repost your analysis of this scene and we shall erase speculation. And we shall see if this is a fact that supports a theory or a fact that is created by a theory.

Cheers!

[Mad-I Moody]

Hawk --
I'm a little confused; forgive me if this is just a debate between you and AK. If so, I'll butt out. :D
I just don't understand what the point in dispute is. Is it the usage of the word "unusual"? Is it the connotation of Ron's gift? Is it the thought that Hermione thanking Ron is viewed by some H/Hr shippers as an afterthought? I'm confused.... :frown:

[humongoratdropping]

Don't blame you, Mad-I Moddy. Half this thread is like debates between two people with around four other subjects going on at once.

[Daveydee]

Mad-I,

Hawk believes Hermione thinks less of Ron's present than Harry's. He should read my post above.

EDIT: Re: the exclamation mark - ignore it. Of course she was pleased with the book. She might have positively gushed over the perfume. But since there is no punctuation which signifies gushing we don't know. Best, therefore not to read too much into punctuation.

[SeniorFishy]

Incidentally - please dispense with the idea that Hermione's description of it as unusual as being a euphemism for horrible. Here's the Oxford English Dictionary definition:

unusual: remarkable or interesting because different from or better than others

In the context of the book, it does suggest that Hermione didn't like the present. Personally if someone told you that your present was unusual would you think that they liked it? Honestly though, it might suggest that perhaps Ron had made some moves on Hermione over the summer and maybe they agreed that it wasn't the right time. And maybe perhaps she thinks this is odd because they had that talk and Ron isn't giving up. Ron still wants it to happen and is telling her that he still likes her.

However to say that Hermione thought the present was remarkable is a bit off. Its most definately described that she doesn't approve of it and perhaps by saying unusual trying to tell Ron off (or she's oblivious to Ron's feelings which is possible but unlikely).

[humongoratdropping]

Didn't someone look up the definition of "unusual" to settle this little argument???

[Hawk 92]

Hawk --
I'm a little confused; forgive me if this is just a debate between you and AK. If so, I'll butt out.
I just don't understand what the point in dispute is. Is it the usage of the word "unusual"? Is it the connotation of Ron's gift? Is it the thought that Hermione thanking Ron is viewed by some H/Hr shippers as an afterthought? I'm confused....

Mad-I Moody

I removed the part that AK disputed as speculation. We're contending that AK theory is creating facts instead of using facts to support his theory. Now a theory is just a theory but I disputed his theory on the grounds that it created this fact independant from the text. So AK challenged and I accepted.

Now AK

Since I misread your question I'll ask one as well. Does accusing someone of betraying one's friends and fraternizing with the enemy have romantic implications?

Cheers!

[snitch14]

Well, actually, the gift scene doesn't take sides on couples. Hermione was thanking both the boys for the presents, though she didn't like Ron's as much as Harry's. She'd rather have a book than a perfume. So, if it was Ron who gave the book and Harry who gave the perfume, then she'd thank ron with an exclamation point and thank harry with a dot at the end.

this doesn't prove much for either H/Hr or R/Hr

[Sirius83]

One must take into consideration the context the word is in used as well. She thanks Harry for the book and says that she's been wanting it for ages. Then she just adds in that the perfume was really unusual. This isn't a positive light. She didnt evens ay thanks for it, and we're not told of her wearing any 'unusual' perfume later on.

[Augurey]

I think Hermione used the word 'unusual' because she couldn't think of a better word that told Ron that she was grateful for it and trying to hide the fact she wasn't perticuly pleased. Its probably more to do with the smell of the perfume rather than that Ron gave her perfume, which is kind of a romantic present.

[snitch14]

Well, she doesn't show favoritism in the boys, but in the presents. oh, this is giving me a headache

[Hawk 92]

Mad-I,

Hawk believes Hermione thinks less of Ron's present than Harry's. He should read my post above.

EDIT: Re: the exclamation mark - ignore it. Of course she was pleased with the book. She might have positively gushed over the perfume. But since there is no punctuation which signifies gushing we don't know. Best, therefore not to read too much into punctuation.

You may choose to ignore anything you wish but it is in the text and JKR put it in the text.

Now about that post

you left something out

unusal
not common or familiar

And if you want to claim it was remarkable

remarkable also means strange

In short we can only speculate on the word unusual.

Cheers!

[SeniorFishy]

Perhaps that 'unusual' perfume is really unusual. Maybe it is some really odd perfume he got that has some magical properties. Maybe the perfume isn't just normal perfume like were all assuming. Ron doesn't seem to think odd of her mentioning that it was unusual, it almost is as if he expected her to say it was unusual.

[Daveydee]

In the context of the book, it does suggest that Hermione didn't like the present. Personally if someone told you that your present was unusual would you think that they liked it?
It suggests nothing of the sort, and the definition of unusual on the previous page is quite clear and unequivocal. I should think that we all like to receive 'unusual' presents from time to time, as opposed to boring old ....stuff.
Its most definately described that she doesn't approve of it and perhaps by saying unusual trying to tell Ron off ...
It is most definately described as nothing of the sort, and where does the bit about telling Ron off come into play?

EDIT:

In short we can only speculate on the word unusual.No - we have absolutely no need to speculate on the meaning of that word. It's quite clearly defined in the OED - the leading canon on words and their meanings.

[Mad-I Moody]

I'm totally missing something. Which fact did AK's theory create? Is this still in regards to the Christmas gifts?

And, as long as we're asking questions of everyone...
Does leaving the boy some people speculate you like alone with his crush so that he can ask her out, even going to the extent to dragging his (the boy you supposedly care for) best friend away so that the boy you like and his crush can be completely alone have romantic implications?

Maybe, but more so for the boy you supposedly like and his crush (who isn't you), in this instance.

[snitch14]

But wait, Hermione was all excited when she told harry about his gift to her. her excitement dropped a little when she told ron bout HIS present to her. why did she do that? couldn't she go on the same happy line and thank him? she didn't say thanks for the unusual perfume, ron! but she just said, ron, that perfume was...unusual. and no exclamation points. that doesn't really looked like she was remotely excited with the gift. and harry didn't notice her actually putting on the perfume

[FlyingPhoenix]

Unusal:
adj 1: not usual or common or ordinary; "a scene of unusual beauty"; "a man of unusual ability"; "cruel and unusual punishment"; "an unusual meteorite" [ant: usual] 2: being definitely out of the ordinary and unexpected; slightly odd or even a bit weird; "a strange exaltation that was indefinable"; "a strange fantastical mind"; "what a strange sense of humor she has" [syn: strange] [ant: familiar] 3: not commonly encountered; "two-career families are no longer unusual"

Deffinition: abnormal, different, foreign, deviating, wild, irritable, very odd, bizarre, strange, unreasonable, absurd

That is what I found. Its interest that all this sound well unnormal.

[Hawk 92]

I'm totally missing something. Which fact did AK's theory create? Is this still in regards to the Christmas gifts?

OK Mad-I Moody let me see if we can explain.

Ak had a 5 point theory that he used to show how Ron and Hermione will get togeather. Now the theory itself is not wrong but I pointed out that in certain instances he created clues by reading the text from his theory instead of using the facts in the book to furthur his theory. This is one of those instances.

Cheers!

[Sirius83]

O_O I can't make much sense of that, Mad-I. But it seems to me you're talking about when Hermione marched off with Ron to the library so Harry could talk to Cho? I'd like you to look at the tone she used. Her tone leaves much to speculation. Either she's giving Ron a clue to leave them alone, or she's not pleased with the entire H/C thing, but isn't malicious to go damaging it on purpose. I think it's the latter.

[GilyAnn]

Oh neat! Spanking new thread! Good because I was beginning to have problems quoting. Is that what happens when we pass the 2000 mark?

Meet say I meet someone face to face not just watching and Harry did Ginny only watching he didn't know her and didn't learn to know her on King Cross. Not a introduce like between the twins and Harry. It was just looking how a family works. So he didn't meet her. He saw her and that is different.

Remember how JKR came to Harry Potter to this story? She sat in a train and suddenly she saw an imagination off a black haired boy going through the train. Its interest that Harry did meet Hermione nearly like that at the train.


Why are H/Hr so set out in denying the H/G interaction? I mean it's surprising! I don't mean to be rude but it's a simple interaction. Harry meet Ginny on the train station and he met Hermione and on the train. Why is it so difficult? The first Girl that jkr introduces us in the series is Ginny, on King Cross station.

On the kiss:

The fact that JKR showed us a reaction coming from Ron is very important. Unlike Harry, Ron showed a reaction towards the kiss. Even though both kiss from a sing of support and friendship. It makes a difference on the kiss because of Ron's reaction.

Gily Ann

Edit: Here the definition of Unusual humongoratdropping


Not usual, common, or ordinary.



1: not usual or common or ordinary; "a scene of unusual beauty"; "a man of unusual ability"; "cruel and unusual punishment"; "an unusual meteorite" [ant: usual]

2: being definitely out of the ordinary and unexpected; slightly odd or even a bit weird; "a strange exaltation that was indefinable"; "a strange fantastical mind"; "what a strange sense of humor she has" [syn: strange] [ant: familiar]

3: not commonly encountered; "two-career families are no longer unusual"


So overall Unusual is not a bad thing, on the contrary it was a good idea. Hermione notice the change on the gift.


Gily Ann

[humongoratdropping]

I know this will have been mentioned, and this is off-topic from the perfume discussion:
From GoF, why was Mrs. Weasely so cold towards Hermione at the beginning of the Third Task?? We know Hermione has been spending time with Ron that Harry doesn't know about, but Mrs. Weasely was particularly incensed when she learned that Hermione was Harry's girlfriend from Witch Weekly.
As a Ron/Hermione shipper, I can interpret this as Mrs. Weasely knowing that something is going on between Ron and Hermione and is angry that her son's girlfriend is cheating on her son. (hell yeah, I would be angry too)
But also, you Harry/Hermione shippers can probably come up with a good argument

[snitch14]

I know this will have been mentioned, and this is off-topic from the perfume discussion:
From GoF, why was Mrs. Weasely so cold towards Hermione at the beginning of the Third Task?? We know Hermione has been spending time with Ron that Harry doesn't know about, but Mrs. Weasely was particularly incensed when she learned that Hermione was Harry's girlfriend from Witch Weekly.
As a Ron/Hermione shipper, I can interpret this as Mrs. Weasely knowing that something is going on between Ron and Hermione and is angry that her son's girlfriend is cheating on her son. (hell yeah, I would be angry too)
But also, you Harry/Hermione shippers can probably come up with a good argument


Witch Weekly said that Hermione was 'playing' with Krum's and Harry's hearts. You know Mrs. Weasley, she doesn't want Harry to suffer.

[Sirius83]

humongoratdropping, don't you think it more likely she thought it was wrong that Hermione broke Harry's heart? Because she didn't get angry when the article about Harry and Hermione dating came out, she got angry when the article saying Hermione was playing with Harry and Krum's hearts came out.

[humongoratdropping]

But there was no contact between Hermione and Mrs. Weasely after the second article.And remember the Easter eggs????

[Sirius83]

The Easter Eggs came after the second article. Also, if JKR wanted us to know Mrs. Weasley was angry about the first article - we would know through Bill or Percy.

[FlyingPhoenix]

Why are H/Hr so set out in denying the H/G interaction? I mean it's surprising! I don't mean to be rude but it's a simple interaction. Harry meet Ginny on the train station and he met Hermione and on the train. Why is it so difficult? The first Girl that jkr introduces us in the series is Ginny, on King Cross station.

I don't deny it I just say how it was. Meet someone is in my eyes I do see someone he or she see me I say Hi she say Hi I talk with her or him but this don't happen. Wait, Harry meet her with her mother before the barriere.
So what now they meet before the barrier and than? Right if this a H/G moment I agree.

[snitch14]

so, u think that mrs. weasley got used to the thought that ron and hermione will make a couple? when had she had time to decide that?

[SeniorFishy]

The fact that JKR showed us a reaction coming from Ron is very important. Unlike Harry, Ron showed a reaction towards the kiss. Even though both kiss from a sing of support and friendship. It makes a difference on the kiss because of Ron's reaction.


I'm confused, it was very clear that Harry did notice the kiss. she did something she had never done before, and kissed him on the cheek. He definately notices that this is the first time she kisses him. I would even say that Harry notices his kiss much more than Ron noticed his.

[noddwyd]

but they didn't actually meet at the train station. Harry saw her interacting with her family from the train, but they weren't introduced there. Harry, Hermione, and Ron all met on the train leaving from king's cross, though.

[snitch14]

what difference does it make who harry met first anyway? it's not a rule that u have to end up with someone u met first. and even so, harry didn't have a clue who the little girl with red hair was..

[FlyingPhoenix]

Easter egg? That is interesting if I may say. How did Hermione look at her egg kinda sad and now in OotP this scene in the library again easter egg this time Harry has it?!
Hmmm this sounds interesting, very interesting.
Hell, I grasping thin air.

[Sirius83]

I find it funny that it is a big thing H/G had a first glance at each other at Kings Cross, but H/Hr is nothing, although the something she had never done before kiss takes place there. Remember H/G didn't officially meet or anything till COS - at the Burrow.

[humongoratdropping]

She had plenty of time to get the idea in her head...all through the summer after PoA , GoF, and (this is not relevant, OotP.)
Also, she might be pushing towards Harry/Ginny. Remember how Harry saved Ginny's life??

[Narami]

Kind of way back and butting in... but this is what forums are for:
EDIT: Re: the exclamation mark - ignore it. Of course she was pleased with the book.Best, therefore not to read too much into punctuation.
Heck yeah, lets not read into puntuations marks, after all what importance do they have? :lol:
She might have positively gushed over the perfume. But since there is no punctuation which signifies gushing we don't know.
oh, yeah, Harry and Hermione might have positively kissed 100 times and declare their love to each other, but, since JK didn't wrote that we just don't know. :rotfl:

[Auror77]

I belive the reason Mrs. Weasley acted coldly to Hermione due to she thought Hermione was playing with Harry and Krum's feelings. She's always had respect for Harry and she didn't want to see Harry hurt or anything.

[FlyingPhoenix]

Uhm yeah we losing the grip. I mean we argue who meet first or which egg they eat or how a perfume smell or that Hermione kissed Ron friendly or if she was already deeply in love.

Why not argue that Hermione has the same favor for Hagrid like Harry has it to him? For example If it were any other teacher she never did accept the way he taught. Everytime Harry look at her intensly if she get away with her anger about Hagrids naivity she change her opinion like a chameleon the colour.
That is interest. Why not stay at this opinion what she always do but there she say she don't mean it.

[GilyAnn]

I'm confused, it was very clear that Harry did notice the kiss. she did something she had never done before, and kissed him on the cheek. He definately notices that this is the first time she kisses him. I would even say that Harry notices his kiss much more than Ron noticed his.

Harry has no reaction towards Hermione's kiss. He doesn't think why did she did it or seems space out like when it happend to Ron. Ron showed the reaction of normal boy that likes a girl. Harry didn't seemed floaty space out or even ponder upon the kiss on the next book. I see the diference on the kiss with the strong reaction Ron had that Harry didn't have. IMHO

but they didn't actually meet at the train station. Harry saw her interacting with her family from the train, but they weren't introduced there. Harry, Hermione, and Ron all met on the train leaving from king's cross, though.

But he knows who she is from the train station. He's seen her! If we need to obliviate this fact. Then I'll help out all off those who want to do so. Harry and Ginny still haven't met because they were never introduced. There!

what difference does it make who harry met first anyway? it's not a rule that u have to end up with someone u met first. and even so, harry didn't have a clue who the little girl with red hair was..

It's related to the Mystery rules that JKR is awfully fond of following.

Gily Ann

[Sirius83]

She had plenty of time to get the idea in her head...all through the summer after PoA , GoF, and (this is not relevant, OotP.)
Also, she might be pushing towards Harry/Ginny. Remember how Harry saved Ginny's life??


But that's completely speculation. Where is the proof of this in the text?

[humongoratdropping]

Most of this thread is speculation, anyway, Sirius83

[Mad-I Moody]

I'd like you to look at the tone she used. Her tone leaves much to speculation. Either she's giving Ron a clue to leave them alone, or she's not pleased with the entire H/C thing, but isn't malicious to go damaging it on purpose. I think it's the latter.

The only indication of tone we are given is the word "Firmly."
Hermione grabs Ron and says "firmly" that they will be in the library.
1. This comes after she has already asked Harry if he's planning on asking Cho on a date -- so Hermione planted the idea of asking Cho out in his head in the first place.
2. I don't see how Hermione's "firm" tone could possibly indicate that she is in any way displeased.
firm1 **
adj. firm·er, firm·est

1. Resistant to externally applied pressure.
2. Marked by or indicating the tone and resiliency of healthy tissue: firm muscles.
3. Securely fixed in place: Despite being hit by the car, the post was still firm.
4. Indicating or possessed of determination or resolution: a firm voice.
5. Constant; steadfast: a firm ally.
6. a. Not subject to change; fixed and definite: a firm bargain; a firm offer.
b. Unfluctuating; steady: Stock prices are still firm.
7. Strong and sure: a firm grasp.

firmly

adv 1: with resolute determination; "we firmly believed it"; "you must stand firm" [syn: firm, steadfastly, unwaveringly] 2: in a secure manner; in a manner free from danger; "she held the child securely" [syn: securely] 3: with firmness; "held hard to the railing" [syn: hard]

Now, there are any number of ways JKR could have indicated that Hermione was displeased and still left it slightly cryptic. She could have said "Ron and I will be in the library," Hermione said with a slight frown.
She could have said "Ron and I will be in the library," Hermione said sternly. "Ron and I will be in the library," Hermione said abrubtly. "Ron and I will be in the library," Hermione said coldly. "Ron and I will be in the library," Hermione said harshly.

But firmly? I don't see any way that can connote displeasure.

[snitch14]

she was probably just giving ron a clue. that is the only way i can see it. maybe later on, hermione wasn't so happy with h/c, but she didn't show any signs of dislike to the couple before the kiss

[SeniorFishy]

Harry has no reaction towards Hermione's kiss. He doesn't think why did she did it or seems space out like when it happend to Ron. Ron showed the reaction of normal boy that likes a girl. Harry didn't seemed floaty space out or even ponder upon the kiss on the next book. I see the diference on the kiss with the strong reaction Ron had that Harry didn't have. IMHO


But Ron was described as being 'lost' and 'desperate' before the kiss, his mood didn't change much and we're described as him rubbing the spot he was kissed not really knowing what happened. Ron was preety much zoned out the whole time before the match. I don't think that kiss affected him much at all. Where as Harry definately noticed that Hermione did something she had never done before.

[Mad-I Moody]

that scene happened after the kiss, though. The scene where Hermione pulls Ron away from Harry and Cho so that Harry and Cho can be alone.

[humongoratdropping]

Why does concern for Harry pairing up with human hosepipes signify the wanting of a relationship with Harry?

Why can't this be interpreted as concern for one of your best friends that you're going out with a slut?

[snitch14]

Mad-I Moody:

then i'm confused

[Sirius83]

Most of this thread is speculation, anyway, Sirius83

Speculation based on cannon evidence as we analyse the books - not speculation on what is not suggested.

I mean as i've said before, if we can just speculate to no end, Hermione knows Harry isn't a bad kisser because they kissed back in the broom closet in POA. We're just not told of it. :evil:

[Mad-I Moody]

Well, we've had some speculation that Hermione didn't like the perfume because it is not suggested that she ever wears it...
;)

[FlyingPhoenix]

I'm confused as well. I mean she say it firmly and whats the deal?
Wasn't that still before anything happened? Or is it after this famous christmas kiss?

Its disen't matter not really. Only that she let them as fast as she can alone. Like I don't wanna hear and I don't wanna see it.

[Undómiel]

Oh man, people never grow tired of this tread! I can see why, I come here almost every day just to check out the new theories and analisis - most of them are very interesting . (especially the ones made by H/Hr shippers... For me is Harry and Hermione all the way! :) )
Well, this is my prediction about harry´s love life:

Harry will end up together (if he survives) with the girl in front of which (or because of which) he cries for the first time. I don´t know, I just feel that the fact we never saw him crying will have something to do with it.

For everyone that posts here, no matter what ships you support, keep doing the great job! You help me diminish to the boredom of my days at work/college research-lab... heheh...thanks!

[Sirius83]

Oh, i'm not saying she doesn't like it based on we don't hear of her wearing it(although that would be a nice R/Hr clue if she did!) - i'm saying she doesn't like the perfume because of the way she answered it. After thanking Harry for the book and saying how long she ha dbeen waiting for it, she just adds a little something to Ron saying the perfume was unusual, no thanks, no anything. Just "And that perfume is really unusual, Ron." and thats it.

EDIT: :welcome: Welcome to the HMS Harmony, Undómiel! I don't understand why Harry would get together with the girl he first cries in front of, but for the record, he did sort of cry in front of Molly, Ron and Hermione back in GOF, after he got back from the graveyard.

[GilyAnn]

Here is the part on the Kiss. Ron did had a positive reaction towards the kiss.

But Ron was described as being 'lost' and 'desperate' before the kiss, his mood didn't change much and we're described as him rubbing the spot he was kissed not really knowing what happened. Ron was preety much zoned out the whole time before the match. I don't think that kiss affected him much at all. Where as Harry definately noticed that Hermione did something she had never done before.


Here is that part:

Ron seemed to come to himself slightly as they walked back across the Great Hall. He touched the spot on his face where Hermione had kissed him, looking puzzled, as though he was not quite sure what had just happened. He seemed too distracted to notice much around him, but Harry cast a curious glance at the crown-shaped badges as they passed the Slytherin table, and this time he made out the words etched on to them:

Gily Ann

[Mad I]

It could also be that Ron simply likes Hermione more now, that doesn't mean that in the future that they are more likely to get together (Harry could have a change of heart or Hermione could just plain like Harry as more than a friend more than she likes Ron more than a friend.

[Mad-I Moody]

it (the scene where Hermione drags Ron away from Harry and Cho) is after the kiss between Harry and Cho, and after Hermione gives Harry the idea that he should ask Cho on a date.

Its disen't matter not really. Only that she let them as fast as she can alone. Like I don't wanna hear and I don't wanna see it.

Again, I say if JKR wanted to connote this in any way, she had an abundance of more appropriate, yet still cryptic, adverbs and other parts of speech (huffily, coldly, abruptly, sternly, harshly, with a slight frown, brusquely, icily) on hand to describe Hermione's manner and tone. Instead, she says that Hermione grabs Ron and tells Harry (firmly) that they will be in the library.

[FlyingPhoenix]

By the way I still think "really unusual" is a really unusual choice off words for Hermione. Maybe you look up in which instance Hermione said once unusual maybe than we got how she might mean it. If I remember it was in COS as she said about Riddles Diary its unusualy. Well, not common that isn't a comment if she like it or not it is just a statement. Like the sun is yellow or the sky is blue. Its not great, not sweet, not nice its unusual. Thats maybe the reason why I don't want hear it if I give such a gift. I mean I want hera an opinion and not a statement. Like I say this sig is unusual, well is it bad or good? I don't know but unusual.

[Mad I]

Plus Ron was already nervous at the time of the kiss and that could have simply put him over the edge.

[humongoratdropping]

Hmph...the subject of Mrs. Weasely's idignation in GoF seems to have been quashed quite nicely by Sirius83 and snitch14

[Sirius83]

Excuse me while i turn an argument around on you guys okay? :evil:

You say Hermione lacks tact. Well, how's this for lack of tact? Ron is nervous about the badges. Hermione takes Harry aside and tells him not to let Ron see the Slytherin badges. Harry doesn't get it. Ron wanders over, and completely out of left field, Hermione kisses him good luck. Ron then indeed is too distracted to notice the badges.

Do you see where i'm coming from? Hermione is aware of Ron's feelings, but does not return them. However, she needs something to distract Ron and fast, so she does something to distract him - a kiss, tactless as it may be.

Interesting as that is by the way, whatever Hermione did after the "And you, Harry -" sure distracted Harry as well, because Harry seemed to have blacked out until they were making their way across the Great Hall as well.

[noddwyd]

actually, we, the readers, have seen him crying at least twice. Once after the graveyard in the hospital wing in front of Hermione, Molly, and Ron, and then again alone at the end of OoTP, when he was hiding behind that bush for most of the afternoon.

[Elric]

Regarding the point raised by Humungoratdropping, re: Mrs Weasley indignation with Hermione in GOF.

I don't have the book to hand so I can't quote the page, but didn't Harry say something to Mrs Weasley along the lines of, "You don't believe that rubbish in Witch Weekly do you? Hermione's not my girlfriend".

After this it describes Mrs Weasleys attitude to Hermione as being much warmer.

But Harry wasn't in any position to deny anything about Hermione and Krum, who was also mentioned in the article. So if Mrs Weasley was angry with Hermione for two-timing Ron by going out with Harry, then she should have still been angry, as Hermione was allegedly involved with Krum and so would have still been two-timing Ron, just not with his best friend.

Does that sound reasonable?

[humongoratdropping]

Yeah it does....*admits grudgingly*

[Turambar]

FP just on your earlier point about JKR dreaming up Harry on the train:
It must have seemed a really personally significant thing to her for two hugely important things for her family to happen on train journeys:
Her parents meeting and falling in love and herself dreaming up the Harry Potter story. That's a couple of family legends right there.
It suggests that Harry meeting Hermione on the train is a lot more significant, carries more romantic symbolism to JKR, than any attached to his short passing meeting with the Weasleys, including Ginny, in PS that happened on the platform. Harry and Ginny were not introduced to each other at that stage. The twins introduced themselves and Ron to Harry on the train and of course so did Hermione once the journey was underway.

[snitch14]

Excuse me while i turn an argument around on you guys okay? :evil:

You say Hermione lacks tact. Well, how's this for lack of tact? Ron is nervous about the badges. Hermione takes Harry aside and tells him not to let Ron see the Slytherin badges. Harry doesn't get it. Ron wanders over, and completely out of left field, Hermione kisses him good luck. Ron then indeed is too distracted to notice the badges.

Do you see where i'm coming from? Hermione is aware of Ron's feelings, but does not return them. However, she needs something to distract Ron and fast, so she does something to distract him - a kiss, tactless as it may be.

Interesting as that is by the way, whatever Hermione did after the "And you, Harry -" sure distracted Harry as well, because Harry seemed to have blacked out until they were making their way across the Great Hall as well.


That does seem plausible. Looking at it that way, it DOES make sense. I dun see any other explanation for it. Hermione never kissed either of em before for good luck. She had a reason behind it. Well spotted!

[Phoenix_Fawkes]

Hey everyone From Pumpkins army Please explain to me what that is... And all My fellow H/Hr shippers I have made a website! It is Under Construction.. But take a look.. www.flyingsparks.tk (http://www.flyingsparks.tk) Bye!

[Dreamprincess288]

Are you people crazy? Three new pages in the time it takes me to take a shower?!? Woah... I skimmed over it, dunno if I'll have time to read it all!

[Sirius83]

:lol: Funny, theres a site in the works...it already has a design, a name(still subject to change though!) and a staff...consider this a little plug for it, because it will have a nice romance section as well :p

Pumpkins Army is just a group of H/Hr shippers. Nice site layout there, by the way.

[Phoenix_Fawkes]

Yay! Well i need to talk to some Pumpkin army people.. Cause Sign Me up! and I have a H/Hr web site in the works.. We can exchange links mabye.......

[AvadaKedavra]

Hawk

You are my Huckleberry? I am thinking this is probably a referrence to Huckleberry Finn, but what do you mean by this? (SHOCK: never read it.)

I don’t know what your issue is. You are complaining that I speculate, then provide text to support my speculation. That is EXACTLY the same as providing text, then speculating upon this text.

BTW, to clear something up. I was not using the perfume instance to “promote” Hermione’s feelings for Ron. I was using the perfume instance to furtherly explain my mini-theory on as to why Hermione showed a lack of response to Ron’s moves.

And, you have also to give the speculation credibility (far fetched, or very reasonable).

Here is my take on the perfume thing (in your preferred format).

Ron gives perfume, a gift which, in a lot of people’s opinions has clear romantic connotations, alongside other connotations. Ron gives this gift to Hermione. Ron’s previous behaviour towards Hermione in certain instances suggests possible feelings for Hermione. So it is natural to assume that even if perfume does have other connotations, taken in the context of Ron’s previous behaviour, this gift was most likely chosen for its romantic connotation. This is from Ron’s perspective.

Now, we analyse it from Hermione’s perspective.

Her comment on the present was:

“And that perfume was really unusual, Ron”

Now, the word unusual. I take this as “recognition” from Hermione that the perfume is not quite what you would expect as a present. I, from my point of view, am thinking that Hermione recognises the possible romantic connotation. But, at this moment, there is no “positive response” from Hermione, one that would encourage Ron in his attempts to give out hints. This is established so far from the text.

However, we also know that Hermione is a brilliantly analytical witch. Hermione analyses everything from every perspective. It is natural to assume, given that perfume given to her by Ron does indeed have possible romantic connotations, Hermione would analyse the total possible connotations of Perfume, and the total possible explanations of this gift, in accordance with her normal analytical mindset.

Now, Perfume has plenty of connotations. If it was given as a gift, the connotations for it other than it could be platonic. Hermione, with her analytical mind would come to this conclusion. This perfume, given by Ron, could be meant platonically.

(This was pointed out in the forum, thanks to some H/Hr shippers who denied that it had romantic connotations and insisted that it had platonic connotations.)

If Hermione arrives to this conclusion, then this potentially ambiguous gift by Ron, creates problems. How shall she react? Their friendship, as established by the text, is very deep, very strong. This creates two implications-

1) The gift has extra likelihood of being platonic, given the scope of their friendship, as established by text.

2) Reacting wrongly, even giving a strange reaction or something out of place could be deadly, because their friendship is great, and too much to lose for a misleading response.

So, even though Perfume was most likely chosen for its romantic connotations, Hermione is thinking, you can never be too sure. She therefore opts to play it safe, giving Ron some “indication” that she recognises the potential nature of the gift, and furtherly (based on some people’s interpretation, as nicely pointed out by Davydee, that she appreciates the unusualness of it).

Now, I have to point something out, before your attempts to discredit a small part of my theory continue. The above is not based on speculation. It is based on one piece of text. And I have pointed out many conclusions on textual examples. Such are:

1) Ron could feel for Hermione, based on the textual evidence which leads so many people to agree that Ron has feelings for Hermione

2) Hermione is analytical and examines every possibility of situations, based on the textual evidence which leads so many people to appreciate her cleverness.

3) R/Hr’s friendship has very strong fundamentals, (plenty of textual evidence for this) and the scope of their friendship blurs many actions which in any other boy and girl relationship, take the H/C relationship for example, would be considered as romantic.

I am praying that you will see the light. Not for R/Hr (that would never happen) but at least for this part.

Now onto your questions.

Does accusing someone of betraying one's friends and fraternizing with the enemy have romantic implications?

On its own, no.

Applied to the Yule Brawl and taken contextually, yes. I have explained thoroughly why Ron did this (IMO) in my theory.

Now leave me alone. (Not likely) :p

I’m exhausted. (and the 35 degree temperature here is not helping).


I just feel that the fact we never saw him crying will have something to do with it.

He cries twice. Once in front of Dumbledore at the end of Book One. The second time is on his own, at the end of Book Five.

Sirius83

Just one problem.

This does not fit in with Hermione's character. Plus, kissing Ron would give her long term problems if it was going to encourage him. I don't think Hermione would be fool and tactless enough to solve a short term problem by creating a potential and even bigger long term problem. (And Hermione has displayed extraordinary tact and cleverness- re: excellent advice to Harry about Cho.)

signing out,

Avada

[Sirius83]

Just one problem.

This does not fit in with Hermione's character. Plus, kissing Ron would give her long term problems if it was going to encourage him. I don't think Hermione would be fool and tactless enough to solve a short term problem by creating a potential and even bigger long term problem. (And Hermione has displayed extraordinary tact and cleverness- re: excellent advice to Harry about Cho.)

It fits in quite well if she's as tactless as many people claim her to be though, which is my point. You can't say she's tactless and then say that she thought out out the long term implications of the kiss to distract Ron. ;)

However, i am of the belief she is not that tactless, and she was aware of the implications - BUT, she could for one pass it off as a friendly good luck kiss, and secondly - it is suggested that she kissed Harry as well. While there's nothing to prove it, there's nothing to disprove it, because JKR purposely left us hanging there. I was just pointing out a double standard.

By the way, excellent advice about Cho? Can you remind me what advice she gave? More precisely, where does she give advice on Cho following the kiss? All she did was tell things as they were, which is a far cry from giving advice, let alone excellent advice.

[AvadaKedavra]

By the way, excellent advice about Cho? Can you remind me what advice she gave? More precisely, where does she give advice on Cho following the kiss? All she did was tell things as they were, which is a far cry from giving advice, let alone excellent advice.

She gave Harry a very useful insight into how a girls mind works, and I think her advice on what he should have done was very good, in other words, excellent. Harry could've taken Hermione's word for it, gone to Cho, recited it (the advice on what he should have said) from memory (albeit in past tense) and I'd have been prepared to bet ten galleons that Cho would have taken him back.

Let's go back to my trusty old word processor and synonyms,

Advice:

recommendation, counsel, suggestion, guidance, opinion, information, instruction.

All of those can be put in the following blank.

Hermione was giving Harry __________ on how he should have handled things.

And IMO, that __________ was excellent.

:lol:

[Sirius83]

But where is this AK? Where did she give Harry advice and not just tell things as they were? Quotes and/or chapter references, please. The advice we're looking for here is Hermione telling Harry what he should be doing.

[Hawk 92]

AK

You are my Huckleberry? I am thinking this is probably a referrence to Huckleberry Finn, but what do you mean by this? (SHOCK: never read it.)

I told you about the movie Tombstone once.

I don’t know what your issue is. You are complaining that I speculate, then provide text to support my speculation. That is EXACTLY the same as providing text, then speculating upon this text.

As I pointed out this is a debate forum and I was just making a point. Speculation can lead a person anywhere they want to go.

However, we also know that Hermione is a brilliantly analytical witch. Hermione analyses everything from every perspective. It is natural to assume, given that perfume given to her by Ron does indeed have possible romantic connotations, Hermione would analyse the total possible connotations of Perfume, and the total possible explanations of this gift, in accordance with her normal analytical mindset.

So Hermione is a great analytical witch who since December of last year has been unable to confirm Ron's feelings for her. As you claim. Unless there is something in the text that suggests otherwise. Now it has also been a since Feburary since you claim that she began to realize after the second task. So Hermione is a clever witch who needs over a year to realize that Ron likes her. Which is it?

Then you shift into this whole she realizes her feelings for him after the second task but goes into shift down mode. So why? What is holding her back? What does she need to analyze that takes so long? What can't she resolve? So your theory shifts in order to support itself.

I am praying that you will see the light. Not for R/Hr (that would never happen) but at least for this part.

No. Sorry you've shown that without your speculation this is not a moment. Now I could speculate that Hermione has analyzed this as well that she doesn't like Ron in a romantic sense and that she is merely thanking him for his Christmas gift. I can also point out that Ron says "No problem Ron said" there is nothing in Ron's response or Hermiones to suggest more. Ron has no reaction to Hermione's at all. Nothing about him being embarassed Nothing about Hermione saying it tenatively or anything else. So my speculation leads me to believe that Hermione does not like Ron romantically.

Applied to the Yule Brawl and taken contextually, yes. I have explained thoroughly why Ron did this (IMO) in my theory.

Is that the same text in which Hermione was given the same things as Harry and got the same attention as Harry? Hermione who got a special entrance? The same text that compared the look on Ron's face to the one on Karkoff's? Did Karkoff like Hermione as well? And what about the part that lead up to "Ask me first"?

And we have explained texually that Hermione likes Harry and that Harry likes Hermione and has now realized how much Hermione means to him.

Now leave me alone. (Not likely)

As you wish. I was merely using our debate to prove our different approaches to the theories.

But I will point out that you cannot call this texual proof until Hr/R is written in cannon. So nice speculation none the less.

Cheers!

[AvadaKedavra]

You know- Hermione explaining to Harry how he should have acted on his date, immediately preceding the "confusing quote".

EDIT: Hawk

I haven't seen the movie Tombstone. So please explain what you're on about.

So Hermione is a clever witch who needs over a year to realize that Ron likes her.

Not once, not even once in the whole of my theory that I have said that Hermione fully realises that Ron has feelings for her. You CONTINUE IGNORING many things that I say. I wish you would read everything I read with care and not jump to conclusions, especially when I go to extra lengths to clarify myself, by re-re-re-re-re posting parts and bolding some parts and explaining myself over and over again.

IT. IS. NOT. AS. SIMPLE. AS. THAT.

Even at the end of OOTP, Hermione is not totally sure that Ron has feelings for her. I totally refuse to retype what I have said because we are going around and round in circles and it is begining to infuriate me.

But I will, in the spirit of so-called "professionalism" (where professionals take what they take seriously and remember every point before they dispute each other), re-post what I've said that is relevant on this matter.

She's at the same disadvantage--many actions that would ordinarily be construed as part of a romantic relationship--spending lots of time together, discussing everything, bickering, always knowing that you automatically have a partner for the DA exercises or other classes, giving affectionate gestures to each other, showing sweet moments of caring to each other--are already part of their everyday relationship. So how does one tell, exactly, when the next move has been made and the tables turned--and even if it seems to be a move that's romantic in nature, was that the intent?

And Hermione's analytical mindset could also to be blame. She is seeking alternative explanations for certain actions, and the explanations that she comes up add to her hesitancy, and internal struggle.

[QUOTE]Then you shift into this whole she realizes her feelings for him after the second task

Where did I say this? I assume that you're on about the whole Fleur thing. Go back to what I said and read it, before you start making assumptions about what I've said!

So my speculation leads me to believe that Hermione does not like Ron romantically.

Fine! Do I care? No. All I care about is defending my theory. As for the speculation part- you DONT GET THE POINT. I am looking at the text and speculating on it. And you said yourself.

Text+Speculation=Theory.

HUH???

You may dispute that Ron's actions at the Yule Ball were not driven by underlying feelings for Hermione, but I think otherwise. I think the same as 90% of the people on this forum do. That Ron likes Hermione and that his actions at the Yule Ball were clearly driven by his feelings for Hermione.

But I will point out that you cannot call this texual proof until Hr/R is written in cannon.

I think I have just done so. I'm calling it textual proof which supports my theory. Now that's a big difference.

That textual proof can be interpreted differently however.

BTW, that "leave me alone" was a joke. You don't have to heed it. And don't even say that my theory is "speculation". It's a theory.

Before you reply, as you undoubtedly will, READ. EVERY. SINGLE. WORD. OF. MINE. so that no misinterpretation of my language (which I hope is crystal clear) will occur. Otherwise I will ignore it.

As I recall a certain someone saying,

Know your opponent and yourself.

Signing out,

Avada

[_BT_]

lol, looks like my prediction is coming true... 5 pages in one day. where else but the love thread?
since i'm reached 50 posts here (most of which are in the love threads, lol) and i guess have elevated from 'newbie' to 'not-quite-so-newbie' i'd reintroduce myself quickly for anyone who missed my first intro (old thread, like page 40-something...) I'm BT, and my views are thus: all possibilites are open for the next 2 books (yes even harry/cho even though i wouldnt like it) because jkr never firmly closed the door on anything. the pairing i support the most is h/hr, although i ackowledge there are clues in the books that could be interpreted as r/hr. i'd disagree with those interps, but i realize they're there. i also realize that this thread is pretty much going to go in circles for the next 2-3 years but still.. i like debating

ok then.. replying as usual to the last 3 pages

Grace Granger: oops...you got me there! No it does not state in the book that Ron likes Hermione. I suppose I meant it's a fact here on this board because everyone agrees that Ron likes Hermione in one way or another.

lol... i guess that puts me in the minority, in a level more primitive than you all have debated to-- since i don't believe ron has feelings for hermione.

noddwyd: When did she say that? If that's true, then doesn't this prove that Harry will, in fact, 'end up' with somebody?

i haven't seen this jkr interview, but i've heard of it before. supposedly, harry ends up with one of the original book 1 characters. if it's true, then yes-- harry will end up with someone. 3 possibilites from book 1: Ginny, Hermione, Parvati.

Mad-I Moody: I guess I just don't see how Harry noticing that Hermione had never before kissed him on the cheek indicates anything about Hermione's feelings. For all we know, she had never kissed Ron on the cheek either. Harry notices that she did something she had never done before - I could see someone arguing that this indicates Harry's feelings (even though I think that is a stretch, too - since he doesn't seem to reflect on it the way Ron did in OotP, at least, not that we see) before I can see how it indicates Hermione's feelings.

i think what sirius83 was trying to say, was that because jkr was putting emphasis on this kiss in description... it may be pointing towards something.

ronrocks: I did not realize that Kings Cross was a romantic place for JKR...interesting.

true, that is one thing the h/hr kiss has going over the r/hr. could be a clue..

hermy_weasley2: I know you all have VERY complicated reasons for arguing whatever it is that you do, but I'm going to go back to the basics.First Ron/Hermione:
1. Ron has been very defensive when it comes to Hermione ever since COS, almost protective.
2.Ron has always been jealous at the slightest mention of Hermione noticing anyone else.
3.Hermione's reaction to Fleur kissing Ron on the cheek, and Ron's crush ---? on Fleur seems a lot like jealousy.
4. Hermione's now famous words in the "Yule Brawl" about asking her first next time. Also, Hermione's reaction to Ron's lack of emotion towards eveything. I see this as frustration.
5.Ron and Hermione's time spent alone in OoTP as prefects and over the summer. In other words, their time spent away from Harry is a big clue.
6.The awkward handshake after Harry's hug in COS makes it seem as though the are too shy to do anything else.
7. They are compared to Mr. and Mrs. Weasley in OoTP, and they often argue like an old married couple.
8. Hermione's now famous kiss she gave Ron on the cheek in OoTP, and Ron's reaction. The mood is different here than it was when she kissed Harry on the cheek in GoF. It was less tense. Harry had just witnessed the return of the greates Dark wizard of all time, Ron needed good luck in a Quidditch match.
9. Hermione's letter to Victor Krum. As was pointed out, there's nothing going for this guy except fame and Quidditch skill, which Hermione can have in Harry if she wanted that.I think Hermione might be keeping in touch with Krum to make Ron jealous so that Ron will finally admit his feelings for her. I think she's too socially...challenged to admit them herself.

1. examples?
2. again, examples? if you're talking bout the krum issue, that's just because ron was surprised that his idol was with his friend.
3. Ron's crush on Fleur wasn't jealousy, it was lust. Hermione's reaction was due to a general dislike of improper veela behavior.
4. Not frustrated. Just miffed that Ron saw her as less than the other girls and only asked her because he had to.
5. Not a clue. Just because they're prefects; that doesn't mean anything.
6. Or that they're not good enough friends to display that much emotion publically.
7. Bickering=difference in personalites. Not marraige foreshadowing.
8. That doesn't prove anything. If anything it weakens your arg. Because it was before the quidditch=more of a friendly kiss.
9. Absurd speculation. Hermione's not the type to try to induct jealousy from someone else. Secondly, she's not THAT socially challenged. If she had feelings, I think she'd admit em.

hermy_weasley2: Now for Harry/Ginny
1. I dont't think Ginny's over her crush, yet.
2. They share the connection of both being very talented in Quidditch and wizardry/witchcraft.
3.They share the experience of almost being killed by Voldemort. Harry realises this now, Ginny made sure of that when she reminds that she is the only person he knows that has ever been posossed by Voldemort. I think that's good for Harry. He needs to know that even though his problems are unique, other people experience similar situations. I remember this from psycology somewhere.....
4. All the times in OoTp when Ginny's name or something about Ginny just randomly popped up. This is of course when Harry learns she replaced him as Seeker, when Hermione tells them she is dating Micheal Corner and when Fred mentions Ginny's Bat Bogey curse. I think this, along with the event above, is JKR's way of forcing Harry, and therefore us as readers, to notice Ginny. This also includes all all the times we saw ginny's talent/ability to cause trouble come up suddenly.
5. The library chat with the Easter egg. Enough said...

1. agreed, but this is a moot point. harry feels nothing
2. so what? this has no romantic connotations
3. Yup, this 'almost killed' bond is so important, it's brought up all the time in books 3-4-5. or not. ginny disappears in 3/4, comes back in 5, and harry forgot about everything.
4. Or JKR is just developing ginny's character, for un-romantic=with-harry reasons
5. not enough said. specifics on why this points to a relationship?

SkyHi1825: Oh and hi every one i've been reading you posts for a while now and finally decided to enter this heated debate. After reading all 5 books over I have decided to ship H/Hr beause there relation ship seems so strong to me and the way they act torward each. they just seem so perfect for each other

yup

Fairydust: Well if you think about it the first wizard girl Harry met was at King's Cross and she was Ginny. Ginny was the first wizard girl he met at the train station. Romance could be there.

hmmmm.. 'tis true..

ronrocks: I believe a strong relationship grows out of, love, respect, understanding and honesty and Harry and Hermione's relationship have these in spades. I love watching H and H's friendship grow with each book, and I believe we will watch it grow into a strong and lasting love in the next 2 books.

true. i don't believe h/hr at the moment have HUGE feelings, like they're totally head over heels or anything....but, i do believe since they share such a strong, deep, relationship, and possibly HAVE had fleeting feelings here and then... leads me to predict: H/HR!

AK: No they are not. Harry reacts indifferently to Hermione’s kiss, only to notice that she had never done that before, whereas Ron’s kiss reaction is more dramatic and marked.

A) Cross-apply FP's ev on King's cross. B) more marked... i'll agree. i don't believe it has romantic implications however.

AK: Or are they? I was under the impression that Hawk, BT and a few others were implying that this wasn’t the case, that it was questionable that Ron did not have feelings for Hermione. In any case, thank you for the confidence/agreement vote, Sirius.

yes they are, and you had the right impression: i am STRONGLY implying the case that ron has NO, REPEAT NO feelings for hermione and i will defend the position

Fairydust: Yeah but when Harry and Ron first met Hermione they didn't like her. And Hermione introduced herself to Ron first and then she recognised Harry. could be something there. that's just my humble opinion though.

A) the only one who outwardly expressed dislike was Ron. B) saw she ron first. nothing else there

Dreamprincess288: I think all of us are starting to mistake friendship with romance a bit (r/h and h/h shippers). Hermione is the only girl in the trio so she can be more expressive. I mean, do you honestly expect Ron and Harry to give each other kisses on the cheek and run and give each other hugs? So for one thing the way the trio expresses themselves varies depending on the person.

interesting

SeniorFishy: Don't girls strive to confuse and perplex guys anyways?

lol, it certainly seems that way. :)

snitch14: Well, actually, the gift scene doesn't take sides on couples. Hermione was thanking both the boys for the presents, though she didn't like Ron's as much as Harry's. She'd rather have a book than a perfume. So, if it was Ron who gave the book and Harry who gave the perfume, then she'd thank ron with an exclamation point and thank harry with a dot at the end. this doesn't prove much for either H/Hr or R/Hr

it does actully prove a little for h/hr. at the very least it shows how harry is in tune with hermione's likes/dislikes... he knows her better on the whole.

Augurey: I think Hermione used the word 'unusual' because she couldn't think of a better word that told Ron that she was grateful for it and trying to hide the fact she wasn't perticuly pleased. Its probably more to do with the smell of the perfume rather than that Ron gave her perfume, which is kind of a romantic present.

Disagree with your interpretation of why Hermione said unusual. I think she said it because she has never received perfume before, especially from a guy like Ron. It has nothing to do with the smell, and we haven't established that perfume is necessarily a romantic gift.

Daveydee: No - we have absolutely no need to speculate on the meaning of that word. It's quite clearly defined in the OED - the leading canon on words and their meanings.

fine but that definition said "different OR better than others." so hermione could just be saying it because it was DIFFERENT than her usual gifts.

GilyAnn: The fact that JKR showed us a reaction coming from Ron is very important. Unlike Harry, Ron showed a reaction towards the kiss. Even though both kiss from a sing of support and friendship. It makes a difference on the kiss because of Ron's reaction.

sure Ron showed a reaction, but i think it's more of an uncomfortable or awkward feeling rather than romantic.

SeniorFishy: I'm confused, it was very clear that Harry did notice the kiss. she did something she had never done before, and kissed him on the cheek. He definately notices that this is the first time she kisses him. I would even say that Harry notices his kiss much more than Ron noticed his.

quoting your sig- nevowned.

GilyAnn: Harry has no reaction towards Hermione's kiss. He doesn't think why did she did it or seems space out like when it happend to Ron. Ron showed the reaction of normal boy that likes a girl.

or a normal boy that feels awkward around girls.

SeniorFishy: But Ron was described as being 'lost' and 'desperate' before the kiss, his mood didn't change much and we're described as him rubbing the spot he was kissed not really knowing what happened. Ron was preety much zoned out the whole time before the match. I don't think that kiss affected him much at all. Where as Harry definately noticed that Hermione did something she had never done before.

once again, nevowned.

Undómiel: Harry will end up together (if he survives) with the girl in front of which (or because of which) he cries for the first time. I don´t know, I just feel that the fact we never saw him crying will have something to do with it.

interesting. well if he cries in front of any girl, it'll be hermione, i guarantee that.

GilyAnn: Ron seemed to come to himself slightly as they walked back across the Great Hall. He touched the spot on his face where Hermione had kissed him, looking puzzled, as though he was not quite sure what had just happened.

ok, so he's puzzled, awkward, maybe even uncomfortable. i don't see anything beyond that

[_BT_]

AK:

i know you're arguing with specifically hawk on this issue, but allow me to reply as well. bold are my words, regular font were yours.

Ron gives perfume, a gift which, in a lot of people’s opinions has clear romantic connotations, alongside other connotations. Ron gives this gift to Hermione. Ron’s previous behaviour towards Hermione in certain instances suggests possible feelings for Hermione. So it is natural to assume that even if perfume does have other connotations, taken in the context of Ron’s previous behaviour, this gift was most likely chosen for its romantic connotation. This is from Ron’s perspective.

No clear romantic connotations. We went over this before and many people replied how they give perfume regularly as a friendly gift (myself included). What previous behavior? Are we talking like WAY BACK in GoF, or the bickering in Ootp? And, regardless, i don't see any connection between a friendly gift and behavior from way back when.

Now, we analyse it from Hermione’s perspective.

Her comment on the present was:

“And that perfume was really unusual, Ron”

Now, the word unusual. I take this as “recognition” from Hermione that the perfume is not quite what you would expect as a present. I, from my point of view, am thinking that Hermione recognises the possible romantic connotation. But, at this moment, there is no “positive response” from Hermione, one that would encourage Ron in his attempts to give out hints. This is established so far from the text.

i agree that hermione is taken back by the unexpected present. i don't think she recognises a possible romantic connotation. agree that there is no positive response, and it certainly doesn't encourage ron to give "hints" (that is, if he even likes hermione, which i don't believe)

However, we also know that Hermione is a brilliantly analytical witch. Hermione analyses everything from every perspective. It is natural to assume, given that perfume given to her by Ron does indeed have possible romantic connotations, Hermione would analyse the total possible connotations of Perfume, and the total possible explanations of this gift, in accordance with her normal analytical mindset.

She _might_ consider that Ron COULD HAVE given it romantically, but i don't think she considers it that way in the end.

Now, Perfume has plenty of connotations. If it was given as a gift, the connotations for it other than it could be platonic. Hermione, with her analytical mind would come to this conclusion. This perfume, given by Ron, could be meant platonically.

It was given platonically, and i think she realizes it.

(This was pointed out in the forum, thanks to some H/Hr shippers who denied that it had romantic connotations and insisted that it had platonic connotations.)

If Hermione arrives to this conclusion, then this potentially ambiguous gift by Ron, creates problems. How shall she react? Their friendship, as established by the text, is very deep, very strong. This creates two implications-

1) The gift has extra likelihood of being platonic, given the scope of their friendship, as established by text.

2) Reacting wrongly, even giving a strange reaction or something out of place could be deadly, because their friendship is great, and too much to lose for a misleading response.

true. she doesn't want to come off in the wrong way.

So, even though Perfume was most likely chosen for its romantic connotations, Hermione is thinking, you can never be too sure. She therefore opts to play it safe, giving Ron some “indication” that she recognises the potential nature of the gift, and furtherly (based on some people’s interpretation, as nicely pointed out by Davydee, that she appreciates the unusualness of it).

What? Davydee? Davydee's OED definition of unusual said "different OR better." so hermione could be saying unusual in terms of different. Next, i disagree with your interp that this perfume likely has romantic implications. Next, i think if she was fully aprreciative of the gift, she'd use a word different than unusual.

Now, I have to point something out, before your attempts to discredit a small part of my theory continue. The above is not based on speculation. It is based on one piece of text. And I have pointed out many conclusions on textual examples. Such are:

sure based on text; i disagree with the interps

1) Ron could feel for Hermione, based on the textual evidence which leads so many people to agree that Ron has feelings for Hermione

lol, theres no textual EVIDENCE of feelings, just interpretations of certain events

2) Hermione is analytical and examines every possibility of situations, based on the textual evidence which leads so many people to appreciate her cleverness.

she is analytical, and i do agree that she might consider the possibility that the perfume has romantic implications

3) R/Hr’s friendship has very strong fundamentals, (plenty of textual evidence for this) and the scope of their friendship blurs many actions which in any other boy and girl relationship, take the H/C relationship for example, would be considered as romantic.

I am praying that you will see the light. Not for R/Hr (that would never happen) but at least for this part.


My summary on my stance on the perfume is that i believe Ron gave the present with no romantic intentions. Hermione receives it and says it unusual strictly because A) she was taken back by receiving perfume (i doubt she has ever before), especially from a guy like Ron and B) it was way different than gifts she got and way different than gifts Ron had gave in the past.

[Hawk 92]

Last time on this I promise,

I don’t know what your issue is. You are complaining that I speculate, then provide text to support my speculation

spec·u·la·tion
1.
noun 1. opinion based on incomplete information: a conclusion, theory, or opinion based on incomplete information or evidence

2. reasoning based on incomplete information: reasoning based on incomplete information or evidence.

That is EXACTLY the same as providing text, then speculating upon this text.

Wrong it is exactly the opposite. I start with the text which is fact established by JKR,

fact
noun 1. something known to be true: something that can be shown to be true, to exist, or to have happened

2. truth or reality of something: the truth or actual existence of something, as opposed to the supposition of something or a belief about something

3. piece of information: a piece of information such as a statistic or a statement of the truth

4. actual course of events: the circumstances of an event, motion, occurrence, or state off affairs, rather than an interpretation of its significance

5. something based on evidence: something that is based on or concerned with the evidence presented in a legal case


As I tried to show you if you remove all of my speculation I can still support this moment with nothing more than fact. If we remove all of your speculation then there is nothing. And since this is a literary debate if you can't establish a fact then you have nothing.

BTW, I have always said that there is doubt as to Ron liking Hermione or Hermione liking Ron. But I didn't dispute that they are friends.

Cheers!

[hermy_weasley2]

Okay, I have to say, I haven't read all replies since my last post,because my eyes were getting tired. So I'm going to be kind of the person who jumps in and says something then just dissappears for a little while. Anyway...

I just want to bring up a few points....
1. We have to remember that these books are from Harry's POV, for the most part. Excep for Chapter 1 of Book1 and Chapter 1 of GoF we see only what Harry sees. Who are we to say whether or not Hermione doesn't hug Ron as much as she does Harry? I mean there have been several times when harry's been in the hospital wing or at Quidditch practice or in detention or left alone whe they're off doing whatever prefects do or while he was spending his month on Privet Drive. Who are we to say she hasn't shown just as much concern for Ron as she does Harry when Harry's not there? Harry can't see everything, and therefore we can't see everything. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it's not there....we all breathe in oxygen, but what does oxygen look like? Hmmmm?
2. We never saw the begininng of the Yule Brawl did we? What brought the whole subject of Viktor Krum around? Why were Ron and Hermione in the common room at the same time anyway? Maybe I'm forgetting part of the book....
3. Hermione was trying to persuade Ron to give Harry and Cho their privacy. Where do I begin? So many points to be made.....Why would she keep doing this as well as asking Harry about what was going on between he and Cho if she wanted to date Harry? This could also be because Hermione wanted Ron to herself,and wanted to get Harry out of the way with Cho. She just seemed so supportive of Harry and Cho, but that was not the case with Ron's little thing with Fleur was it?

Again, just jumping in to sum up a few arguments from the other R/H shippers out there. Just trying to bring you all down out of where you are a few inches.

[Sirius83]

You know- Hermione explaining to Harry how he should have acted on his date, immediately preceding the "confusing quote".

If you're talking about after the date, i will concede that she did give him some advice, but it allows me to bring up another problem. She does this all after H/C has started to fall apart. She also used this opportunity to stick in that bit about how ugly she is(what?!) which is quite interesting. Back to the 'advice' - why does Hermione only do this after the dates ruined, after she can see H/C is down the drain, after she asks brightly, quite aware that things didn't seem to go well?

Why didn't Hermione give any advice after the kiss? Why didn't she at least show a little interest in Harry's date before Harry went on it? Maybe even give him a little pointer or two if she's as happy for Harry as others have suggested? Fact is, she didn't. She was only willing to give Harry the good advice after she sees with her own eyes Harry turn up early without Cho and Cho walk right by Harry and sit with her back to him, then ask brightly how it went?

Yes Hermione gave some advice. No, she did not give any advice to help Harry with Cho. Maybe if the book just had Hermione stick in a little "Maybe you should go explain all this to her" or something to that effect, this post-date scene would be quite different. However, that isn't the case.

EDIT: hermy_weasley2, actually - Chapter 1 in GOF is inside Harry's dream, so it was still in his view. It also doesn't matter if it is in Harry's view, because if something happens "off-camera" and JKR wants us to know it, we find out through another character. Additionally, Hermione was quite unsupportive of H/C, as several posters here will be able to show you, including my recent posts. As for Fleur, i should stick in that Hermione didn't like Fleur one bit from the start and was very much against superficiality. When Haryr was watching the Veela at the QWC, she was quite quick to yank him away, even though he was out of his trance and no longer about the jump.

[_BT_]

Hermy_Weasley2

yo- first off i have some replies to an earlier post of yours.. they're in my LONG post on this page

I just want to bring up a few points....
1. We have to remember that these books are from Harry's POV, for the most part. Excep for Chapter 1 of Book1 and Chapter 1 of GoF we see only what Harry sees. Who are we to say whether or not Hermione doesn't hug Ron as much as she does Harry?

We don't. Everything can be interpreted one way or another

I mean there have been several times when harry's been in the hospital wing or at Quidditch practice or in detention or left alone whe they're off doing whatever prefects do or while he was spending his month on Privet Drive. Who are we to say she hasn't shown just as much concern for Ron as she does Harry when Harry's not there?

You're using the arg that there could be r/hr moments outside the text? dude, i find r/hr speculations based ON the text pretty sketchy as it is. Unless you can point to the place in the text where it happens, there's no way to prove it did.

Harry can't see everything, and therefore we can't see everything. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it's not there....we all breathe in oxygen, but what does oxygen look like? Hmmmm?

weak argument. the only reasonable interpretations we can make are based on moments we actually see. everything else is so completely speculative, it can't be debated.

2. We never saw the begininng of the Yule Brawl did we? What brought the whole subject of Viktor Krum around? Why were Ron and Hermione in the common room at the same time anyway? Maybe I'm forgetting part of the book....

who knows why they're in the common room? how does this link to an arg for r/hr feelings?

3. Hermione was trying to persuade Ron to give Harry and Cho their privacy. Where do I begin? So many points to be made.....Why would she keep doing this as well as asking Harry about what was going on between he and Cho if she wanted to date Harry?

because she's not annoying/nosy enough to outwardly intrude his privacy, but she's naturally curious... maybe even protective

This could also be because Hermione wanted Ron to herself,and wanted to get Harry out of the way with Cho. She just seemed so supportive of Harry and Cho, but that was not the case with Ron's little thing with Fleur was it?

Your first sentence: this is weak. There is nothing in that scene that points towards hermione trying to get ron for himself. 2nd sentence: she was not supportive of the fleur thing because she disapproves of veela behavior, their improper actions, and the way they use beauty to play off of men's natural... feelings

[AvadaKedavra]

Hawk

yeah, yeah.

You can have text, and speculate upon that text.

You can have speculation, then insert text to support that speculation. As I already showed, you can rearrange that to have the original text, then speculate upon that.

Read my EDIT on my previous post for my response to your response.

[DumbledoreTheWise]

I just wanted to say that AvadaKedavra, your posts are the best on this thread by far! :clap: You just keep proving your points, and supporting them, and all opposing shippers can do is ask you a question for which you have already provided the answer. I'm sensing a trend of thickness on this thread...... ;)
Oh I know, that was harsh. But really, you're just pushing the posts in circles, people!

[AvadaKedavra]

DDTheWise

Thank you for the "moral" support, but you said it yourself. That was very harsh and it's best to keep a tone of civilness. If you want to really *rant*, do it privately, and away from here. I don't want you to be kicked out on my behalf.

That said, thank you again. :D

[hermy_weasley2]

well, I think I'll leave all of you here to argue. good Luck everybody!!! I think you're all taking this way tooo seriously anyway. This is just a story...a fictional story. This isn't even the most important issue in the story. There's a quote from the documentary/movie thingy about JFK Jr. called "America's Prince" where JFK Jr. says something to the effect of "They think all I can do is date." I think if Harry or Ron or Hermione or Ginny or Luna or Neville or whoever. could see this thread, they'd be saying that,too. I can actually see H/Hr to some degree, but not as much as R/Hr, and I admit I see the weaknesses in H/G, too. But oh well, I'll get i over it doesn't happen. Anyway, no offence meant to anyone of course. :nc: from now on.

[Hawk 92]

In short since one cannot approach the text seperate from your speculation you admit that you only see what you want.

And I have proven by the text that Hermione dislikes Fleur from the start from her actions and her attitude. Text only.

So in short since you cannot prove that Hermione likes Ron then all speculation is invalid from that point on.

Because Hermione and Fleur begin with Bristled and end with scowled there is no heightened anger to speak of.

Cheers!

[Sirius83]

Some people just like to debate, and this is the most debatable part of the books we all have a passion for. Besides which, love is a defining theme in the story, and romance is one type of love. Love was Voldemorts undoing once and there is nothing to say it won't be again - there is also nothing to say this love won't be romantic in nature. Additionally, part of Harry potter is the coming of age storyline, they're all growing up, part of growing up is experiencing romance.

Now as for going in circles, it runs both ways. Trust me when i say there are many, many times us H/Hr shippers feel we're having to go back to points we once put to rest. However, this is not a thread to be putting people down and i must ask that things be kept civil in here. We're all debating and that's all. Until JKR releases book 7, none of this is set in stone, for all we know - R/Hr, H/Hr and all the other ships could all be wrong.

EDIT: Hawk, actually, one can say Hermione's dislike of Fleur went down over time. Scowl seems less severe than bristle. In your own words, cheers!

[AvadaKedavra]

Ron then all speculation is invalid from that point on.

You've just ignored a gazillion things I've covered in my essay including the fleur instances, so I will ignore you, like I said I would.

EDIT:

Trust me when i say there are many, many times us H/Hr shippers feel we're having to go back to points we once put to rest.

Not post after post having to revert to old points. I simply can't put up with it.

[Earendil]

Nice new thread and already six pages to sift through. :wow: *eyes glazing over* I might start sounding a little "thick" with so much to respond to, so I beg you to forgive me. (And by the way, DumbledoreTheWise, comments like that are best kept to yourself, or this thread will undoubtedly be closed.)

BT already responded to this, but there are a few things that I wanted to cover as well.

Originally posted by hermy_weasley2
1. We have to remember that these books are from Harry's POV, for the most part. Excep for Chapter 1 of Book1 and Chapter 1 of GoF we see only what Harry sees. Who are we to say whether or not Hermione doesn't hug Ron as much as she does Harry? I mean there have been several times when harry's been in the hospital wing or at Quidditch practice or in detention or left alone whe they're off doing whatever prefects do or while he was spending his month on Privet Drive. Who are we to say she hasn't shown just as much concern for Ron as she does Harry when Harry's not there? Harry can't see everything, and therefore we can't see everything. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it's not there....we all breathe in oxygen, but what does oxygen look like? Hmmmm?

This is an argument that applies quite well to real life. However, in fiction--if the author wants us to know about it, we will know about it. The argument that such and such is happening when Harry's not looking is weak because, A) it cannot be supported by text, and B) once we start naming things that could be happening unbeknownst to us, we start treading dangerously close to making stuff up. Who am I to say that Sirius83 isn't right and that Hermione and Harry didn't kiss in the broom cupboard in PoA? :whistle: The idea that things are happening without the third-person limited narrator present is impossible to support with text and is therefore unreasonable to use in a debate.

2. We never saw the begininng of the Yule Brawl did we? What brought the whole subject of Viktor Krum around? Why were Ron and Hermione in the common room at the same time anyway? Maybe I'm forgetting part of the book....

They were in the common room at the same time because the Yule Ball ended at a fixed time and everyone went up to their dormitories together. Harry was not there because he was talking to Cedric, and Ron went ahead up to Gryffindor Tower.

Apart from that, I'm not sure how this is a positive point for R/Hr. From the context of the dialogue, I would assume that Ron as expressing further dislike to Hermione attending the Ball with Krum ("Well, if you don't like it..."), but I'm not quite clear on where this point is going.

3. Hermione was trying to persuade Ron to give Harry and Cho their privacy. Where do I begin? So many points to be made.....Why would she keep doing this as well as asking Harry about what was going on between he and Cho if she wanted to date Harry?

Well, I or many of the H/Hr shippers here have rarely--if ever--claimed that Hermione wants to "date" Harry. I personally feel that she fundamentally cares deeply and has romantic feelings for him that are strong enough to the point that she wants him to be happy, even if it can't be with her. Hermione is smart enough to know that Harry needed to resolve his feelings for Cho, and it would be downright rotten of her to sabotage this relationship to keep Harry all to herself. The fact that she was able to suppress any jealousy (and I do believe she was jealous, judging by the Post-Kiss scene) in order to allow Harry's crush run his course indicates to me that she cares about him so deeply that she sincerely wants him to be able to pursue happiness in a time when he needs it especially.

This could also be because Hermione wanted Ron to herself,and wanted to get Harry out of the way with Cho

Why would Hermione need to get Harry out of the way in order for her to be with Ron?

She just seemed so supportive of Harry and Cho, but that was not the case with Ron's little thing with Fleur was it?

Ron didn't have a little "thing" with Fleur, because there was never any possibility of anything happening between them. Fleur was so utterly out of his league that even JKR mentioned it in an interview. Ron was basically a drooling fanboy with Fleur, and I can see perfectly how a best friend would react negatively to such behavior, especially due to the fact that Ron was being a downright hypocrite about "fraternizing with the enemy".

Anyway, I honestly don't see why Hermione should in any way or form have been supportive of Ron goggling over Fleur, even if she does not have romantic feelings for him. Ron's crush on Fleur was shallow, superficial, unreasonable, hypocritical, and ridiculous. Harry's crush on Cho was also superficial, but was far more reasonable due to the fact that Harry was at least on friendly terms with Cho and she is "accessible", if you will, not to mention that Hermione did not have any previously formed grudge against her. The situations are so drastically different from each other that a comparison in this case is not effective.

hermy_weasley2, I see that your post has already been responded to and I am most likely repeating a few things. However, I hope that you consider these replies, as it seems like other posters are becoming irritated at miscommunications.

On that note, I ask that we please keep the snarkiness down. I know that I won't be the only exceedingly pissed-off person around these parts if this thread gets shut down.

Nice posts, BT, Sirius, Hawk, Grace, sone, and others.

[Sirius83]

Not post after post having to revert to old points. I simply can't put up with it.

Well, time to get used to it :D
Seriously though, both sides just run around in circles...it's been going on since the first love thread on both sides and this is the...wow, 9th...

[Phoenix_Fawkes]

Well we can settle this for good id all you R/Hr and D/Hr shippers just surrender and admit H/Hr is the best ship and is the Ship!

[AvadaKedavra]

I think I might take your advice, Sirius83 and take a break. I will only come back here three times a day with bite sized posts from now on, in order to preserve my sanity. :lol:

As for having to revert to old points, I mean that when I write something, I want it to be taken seriously, and when people dispute things, I don't want to be having to constantly point things out, like "look, I said this here" or "I'm sorry but I did point that out after all", post after post after post after post after post after post after post after post after post after post... you get the point?

Anyone is welcome to dispute anything, just as long as they don't overlook things that the poster that they are disputing has said previously too often.

And with that, I'm off to start my long deserved "cutting down rest". Just hope that the HMS Heron will be ok. I'm sure it will, it's a tough old cookie :p

Signing out,

Avada

[sone]

I'm only asking the questions because I want there to be a balance. I'm merely pointing out that I don't see how the H/Hr moments outweigh any of the other (R/Hr or H/G or any other ship) moments.

Well then you are asking the wrong person (though I know you are not asking me). Like I said, I do not downplay moments between R/Hr and/or H/G moments. In this case you asked "why is it not significant that JKR chose Ginny to be the one who begins to truly break down Harry's defenses -- it says, after she tells him what it was like to be possesed by LV, that 'Harry hardly dared believe her, yet his heart was lightening almost in spite of himself.'"

It is significant, but not as a sign of love. The connection is that she was possessed, he was not and that what was lightening his heart. He did not want to believe but he was anyway. Like I said before, it does not speak highly of Harry for him to forget one the worst years of Ginny's life considering he had to go through hell and high water to save it.

[Sirius83]

Always helps to step back once in a while, i know i've done it myself many times, lol

I understand where you're coming from on people going back to posts when you feel you've covered it...it's just people often won't agree on your view, so something you feel you explained may not have been explained in their eyes and vice versa. Not much you can do about it, unfortunately.

dd2905: Much as i agree in that i think H/Hr is the best ship...which is only a personal opinion anyway, i will never ask the other ships to surrender...what would then happen to our beloved debate? :shrug:

[evaluna]

Hello all! I see we’re on a new thread and there’ve been loads of posts I’ll only take a *few items* :lol: for starters...


Elric
I suppose another interesting point arising out of Hermione getting Harry to start talking to everyone, is this.

Either Hermione offered to try to talk to Harry and get him out of Buckbeak's room, or she was asked to do it, if this was the case I'd guess it was Mrs Weasley that was doing the asking, what with the fire being lit, sandwiches etc.

This at least hints at one of two intriguing possibilities. Firstly that Hermione believes that she can get through to Harry, even if others have failed to do so. Alternately someone else who was at 12GP believes that Hermione is able to reach Harry when others have failed.

Alternative interpretations welcome of course.

Elric, yeah I have thought the same might have been the case. I’ll get back to you on this, b/c DaveyDee really got me thinking about stuff I meant to post sooner. If sone doesn’t get back to you on this first..

DaveyDee
Just a brief comeback on the perfume discussion.

Yes - perfume is seen as a traditional gift of love, originating in biblical times, the most notable being the gift of myrrh from the Magi to the baby Jesus.

Incidentally - please dispense with the idea that Hermione's description of it as unusual as being a euphemism for horrible. Here's the Oxford English Dictionary definition:

unusual: remarkable or interesting because different from or better than others


DaveyDee, there is something indicated from the legends, biblical and other, of the three Zoroastrian magi and the gift of perfume. You’re right. And I am extremely impressed. Though it's not a romantic love per se, obviously. More a universal love. I meant to post stuff on Zoroastrianism sooner, but I thought it might be too much. It’s the intermediary of the original estoric lore “source”, which in turn derives from the triangulation of ancient Sumerian/Egypt and Sumerian/Mesapotamian [through Babylon and Persia] cultures. I’m going to do this backwards. I’m going to post my quick disclaimer first [below] and then my followup re: Zoroastrianism and how relating to the series.

But I still have to think about how that could possibly relate to Ron’s gift to Hermione. Could be taken many ways, and I probably won’t really touch this part too much but will present on how the larger subject relates to the series. Because I think it may strangely be pointing to Ron’s spiritual recognition of Hermione as Harry’s saviour. And that makes me feel bad for Ron, even though I feel H/Hr are meant for one another. I’m no biblical scholar. But perhaps someone else will know if all the magi returned home. I believe they did. But they were foreign priests who worshipped what they saw as the One Wise God’s successor for that age [for every new age, a new representative would be needed, here one to herald the start of the Age of Pisces] from afar. I don’t think it can be literally meant that Ron worships Hermione. That’s just wrong, on many levels.

I think it just might indicate that Ron in fact does understand who Hermione is to Harry in the grand scheme of things, of a world in which Harry must fight for light and right using the most estoteric of all weapons [love], and in which the cost of Harry’s defeat could mean the loss of the world as they all know it. Even without knowing the details of the prophecy, I think Ron -- and anyone else who knew what had gone before—knows this much on some level. Actually the gift of the perfume, in an esoteric sense, leads me to a truer appreciation of Ron’s depth and once more leads me to believe that it is Ron who will sacrifice himself before letting Hermione be sacrificed and thus Harry as well. This implies that on some level Ron could be aware of the depth of the connection between Harry and Hermione, and how much Harry needs her. Perhaps Ron [deep down?] fundamentally grasps some truths that neither Harry nor Hermione have fully comprehended [especially Harry].

Will post Zoroastrianism/background after edits taken.


[b]Potential Foreshadowing: Harry and Hermione[/b]

Below are an incredible collection of scenes and details potentially foreshadowing H/Hr:

sone
[quote]You know Hawk, your post about the Christmas gifts just brought up a weird thought in my head. JKR supposedly said that Harry will end with someone who has been there since "the beginning" Well in the last chapter of GOF called "the beginning" Hermione kisses Harry on the cheek. Hmmm....ain't that something?

Anyway, I think Harry and Hermione will have one of those "magic" moments when he finally tells her what the prophecy said about him and Voldemort.[/quote]

[b]Sone[/b], this is a brilliant point re: "the beginning". Major foreshadowing.

[b]Turambar[/b]
[quote]That's interesting FP.
It got me thinking about the physical contact between H/Hr: most of it happens when they are having adventures alone together. The hug in PS, the shrieking shack and time-turner scenes, the visit to Grawp, the forest trip with Umbridge.
So Ron's never had to face the sight of Hermione whimpering with fear [at Grawp] in Harry's arms.
[Response: [b]Mad-I Moody[/b]]
Well, it doesn't exactly say that she was whimpering with fear in Harry's arms, now... I thought of it more like she was clinging to his arm, or cowering behind Harry, not embracing him.
[Response: sone]
I'm sure you did. However it never said that Hermione clung to Harry's arm. Just that she clung to him which does mean to embrace.
[Response:[b]Grace Granger[/b]]
Either way, I pictured her head against his chest looking down while holding on to the front of his robes.[/quote]

[b]Turambar[/b], I agree! This is a scene that can definitely be argued as containing romantic imagery. Moreover, it has already been immediately preceded by another romantic image. Harry catches Hermione and doesn’t let her fall: Harry builds symbolic romantic trust by “catching” Hermione’s “fall” – [see below paragraph] This “catching Hermione’s fall” scene is potentially strong romantic symbolism IMO -- and then again by “saving” her [protecting her from harm [Grawp’s paw]] so it’s not surprising she clings to him for security. Makes perfect sense. Harry is symbolically showing her that even when she’s most vulnerable and at risk [emotionally, for example, by falling for Harry], she can trust him to protect her [i.e., to protect her heart].

Re: Grawp chapter, whilst still approaching Grawp, Hermione stumbled into Hagrid and fell back. Harry caught her before she hit the ground. Just there we already have some romantic imagery. After this, Hagrid rambles a tad bit in his usual manner [paraphrased] about it maybe being a good idea to stop first for a bit, so he can fill them in…you know, before they “get there”. Then Hermione says good and Harry helps her to her feet. So he’s holding her bodily off the ground [or, at the least, all but her feet, presumably] for several seconds there as well, for at least the length of time Hagrid speaks, lasting until Hermione responds. They prolonged contact, since it could have been written that Harry immediately set her back on her feet as soon as he caught her. After Harry rights her, they illuminate the area together [with their wands] so they can proceed onward. Sweet, yeah?

Also:
[b]Turambar[/b]
[quote]It must have seemed a really personally significant thing to her [JKR] for two hugely important things for her family to happen on train journeys:
Her parents meeting and falling in love and herself dreaming up the Harry Potter story. That's a couple of family legends right there.[/quote]

[b]Yes![/b] And these JKR legends are potentially reflected in 1) Harry and Hermione initially meeting one another on the train, of course, and, if the parallel holds, 2) Harry and Hermione [potentially] initially falling in love at the train station, symbolised by Hermione’s kiss and Harry’s awareness of said kiss at the train station platform [I’ll let someone look up some of the OED synonyms for “platform” ;) ]. Something along the lines of both declaration of shared position or principle, and a surface or device for raising [persons or things] up, and, in the case of train platforms, a transitional [liminal] point of departure and point of entry.

[b]Sirius83[/b]
[quote]'Bye, Harry!' said Hermione, and she did something she had never done before, and kissed him on the cheek.

Note that JKR felt the need to bring special attention to that kiss. The kiss itself is platonic, but it seems JKR wanted to draw special attention to it, unlike the one in OOTP.

Once again i raise that point of never done before though. JKR has in other instances shown Ron's feelings. We have nothing much going for Hermione, yet JKR decides to draw special attention to the GOF kiss. What is significant here is while the kiss itself may be platonic, the author may be trying to draw our attention to a bit of foreshadowing.

Also:
Do you see where i'm coming from? Hermione is aware of Ron's feelings, but does not return them. However, she needs something to distract Ron and fast, so she does something to distract him - a kiss, tactless as it may be.

Interesting as that is by the way, whatever Hermione did after the "And you, Harry -" sure distracted Harry as well, because Harry seemed to have blacked out until they were making their way across the Great Hall as well.[/quote]

[b]Exactly.[/b] Isn’t it strange that [i]Harry[/i] has a mental lapse as well? Just like the fade-out or unexplained lapse in commentary as Cho moved in for the kill..er..kiss…Apparently neither Harry nor Ron could keep a thought in his head after Hermione worked her magic.


[b]Flying Phoenix[/b]
[quote]This isn't the only thing what is suspicious. IMO is it very suspicious that after GoF was out she said in a Interview or in a TV-show that she think about King Cross as a romantical place because her own parents did meet there. This one sounds awul suspicious in my ears.
[also]
This is very interest to know that in book6 Rita Skeeter will be able to write her lovely storys again.
That include off course what she saw between H/Hr for some reason I get this feeling this kiss on King Cross might come back in Book6 if RS did saw it. I mean Rita might want some revange on Hermione[/quote]

[b]FP[/b], Excellent cases of potential foreshadowing. I’m curious about Skeeter as well. In the Three Broomsticks, Hermione as much as said she was expecting more guff from Skeeter on her and Harry next year.


[b]haycheng[/b]
[quote]IMHO, The action of Ron is not important because he is aleady having a crush on Hermione. It provide no new information. The kiss on GoF is different. It is that Harry take notice Hermione has never done it before(Harry pay more attention to Hermione then we let on).[/quote]

Good observation! And there’s also been much discussion of Harry’s bespoke gift for Hermione – he knew it was just the sort of thing she fancied. These are both clear indications that Harry’s not as clueless as he usually appears to be..at least, not for Hermione. Harry’s gift to Ron is also thoughtful [something for his broom, yeah? A compass?] but not as difficult to choose as a book for someone who already has loads of books. At the very least, it shows Harry a) likely spent more time on her gift, which implies he b) not just cares but really cares about pleasing Hermione.


[b]Undómiel[/b]
[quote]Harry will end up together (if he survives) with the girl in front of which (or because of which) he cries for the first time. I don´t know, I just feel that the fact we never saw him crying will have something to do with it.[/quote]

Welcome! You may in fact be right re: ship. Harry just needs to trust someone so he can let his guard down a little and vent his pain. I think that realistically this is most likely to be Hermione, although...perhaps first Lupin or Luna will help "prep him" to trust in his feelings [I mean platonic, esoteric guidance only re: Luna, since to me she fancies Ron], so that he can finally acknowledge them. Lupin and Luna [especially Luna] are the archetypal "Wise Fools", which means they possess deep wisdom of a universal nature, not of a romantic nature. IMO.

Though the text does describe Harry wiping a wet face on his robes or sleeves after thinking on Sirius down by the lake at end of OoP. I would say that counts as crying.
EDIT: [b]noddwyd[/b] caught another time, as well! Are there more?


[b]Avada Kedavra[/b]
[quote]BTW, are you American? Because it’s “grammar” over here.[/quote]
[b]AK:[/b] Cheeky fellow. You’ll have major aggro if my mates get too brassed off at you. :)


[b]Earendil[/b]
[quote]Well, I or many of the H/Hr shippers here have rarely--if ever--claimed that Hermione wants to "date" Harry. I personally feel that she fundamentally cares deeply and has romantic feelings for him that are strong enough to the point that she wants him to be happy, even if it can't be with her. Hermione is smart enough to know that Harry needed to resolve his feelings for Cho, and it would be downright rotten of her to sabotage this relationship to keep Harry all to herself. The fact that she was able to suppress any jealousy (and I do believe she was jealous, judging by the Post-Kiss scene) in order to allow Harry's crush run his course indicates to me that she cares about him so deeply that she sincerely wants him to be able to pursue happiness in a time when he needs it especially.[/quote]

[b]Earendil,[/b] very well spoken. That’s the real thing. :tu:

[Hawk 92]

HERMIONE/FLEUR - JEALOUS OR DISLIKE?

Now I've heard alot about how Hermione is jealous of Fleur and Ron flirting and I've heard how its because Ron is superficial. But I have a different theory I think that Hermione simply does not like Fleur.

Now to prove this I turn to the text,

Gof pg 250-251 US.

"Good evening, ladies and genltemen, ghosts and -most particularly-guests,"said Dumbledore, beaming around at the foreign students. "I have great pleasure in welcoming you all to Hogwarts. I hope and trust that your stay here will be both comfortable and enjoyable."
One of the Beauxbatons girls still clutching a muffler around her head gave what was unmistakeably a derisive laugh.
"No one's making you stay!" Hermione whispered, bristling at her.

Gof pg 252 US

It was the girl from Beauxbatons who had laughed during Dumbledore's speech. She had finally removed her muffler. A long sheet of silvery-blonde hair fell almost to her waist. She had large, deep blue eyes, and very white, even teeth.

The girl is of course Fleur. After this paragraph Ron begins to flirt with Fleur.

Now lets analyze this....

1) Dumbledore is giving a welcoming speech
2) A Beauxbaton girl gives a derisive laugh
3) Hermione gets mad at that girl
4) JKR points out that Fleur was the one to laugh at Dumbledore's speech
5) Ron flirts with Feur

1) Nothing much here Dumbledore is extending the best hospitality and is being a gracious and welcoming host.

2) A derisive laugh is a scornful contemptable laugh. This Beauxbaton girl is scorning and treating with contempt Hogwarts and Dumbledore acts of hospitality. Please note that JKR makes sure that we know that it is an "unmistakeably a derisive laugh." JKR wants to drive it home.

3)Hermione becomes mad at the girl for being scornful of her school (which she cares about) and Dumbledore (whom she respects). Hermione dislikes this girl and her attitude.

4) JKR makes the connection for us that the girl who laughed is Fleur. We are never left to wonder who the girl is who laughed. JKR makes sure that we know that Fleur is the girl who Hermione was mad at for acting scornful of Hogwarts and Dumbledore. There is no debate at all here.

5) Ron acts flirty with a girl who acts scornful of their school and their Headmaster. And Ron calls Hermione the traitor later. Kinda hypocritical don't you think but thats not relavant here.

Now JKR makes sure that we know that Fleur has done something before Ron flirts with her. And JKR makes sure that we know that Hermione does not care for Fleur for her attitude towards Hogwarts and their teacher.

Now if the Ron/Fleur interaction is to make us aware of Hermione's jealousy then why does JKR make sure that we know that Hermione has a reason to, and a dislike, of Fleur before she shows us any interaction between Ron and Fleur?

Now to point out that this is what JKR has written. I do not need to speculate on anything here. JKR makes it quite clear that it is Fleurs actions and not Fleur herself that earns Hermione's anger. In fact JKR goes so far as to keep a muffler around Fleur to furthur show that it is not Fleurs beauty that makes Hermione mad and JKR doesn't confirm that Fleur is a veela until later at which time Hermione is not present when Harry tells Ron.

Cheers!

[ronrocks]

[QUOTE=hermy_weasley2]=3. Hermione was trying to persuade Ron to give Harry and Cho their privacy. Where do I begin? So many points to be made.....Why would she keep doing this as well as asking Harry about what was going on between he and Cho if she wanted to date Harry? This could also be because Hermione wanted Ron to herself,and wanted to get Harry out of the way with Cho. She just seemed so supportive of Harry and Cho,

How is Hermione supposed to react to Harry's feelings for Cho? Hermione is one of Harry's best friends and as his friend she should be supportive of his relationships regardless of any romantic feelings she may harbor.

I do think in the post kiss scene Hermione does display some jealously. I find it interesting that when she is questioning Harry about the kiss her tone is described as brisk and businesslike and when Ron asks if they kissed Hermione is looking at Harry with a slight frown on her face. She does not seem all that happy about Harry's kiss.

[Mad Eye Mike]

AK - Regarding all your complaints all I can say is this:

Cry me a river. :upset:

You're not the first (and only) person that has had to reiterate their essay points over and over. You're not the first (and only) person to have to go back and clarify again and again what they meant. You're not the first (and only) person to post an essay/theory and feel like it was completely misunderstood by the opposing side. You're not the first (and only) person to get annoyed at having to say the same things over and over only to feel like they're not being heard.

Have you forgotten about how you r/hr shippers treated my essay and how it was twisted to be something it wasn't? Or how many times has Perdita, Sirius, Turambar, etc have been misunderstood? It happens, deal with it. You presented your theory (most of which was speculative-based IMO) and it was challenged. If your theory is sound, it'll hold up against any barrage. It it isn't, it won't.

At the very least, the debate between you and Hawk was civil until you seemed to lose it near the end. However for the most part, it was a nicely contested battle and that in and of itself is something to be proud of (especially in this thread).

Cheers!

[Dreamprincess288]

Sorry to go off topic but Mad Eye Mike your avator totally creeps me out!

AK: What Mad Eye Mike said, the way this thread moves a lot of important points can be looked over and sometimes you have to repeat yourself, and then you find you're misunderstood and so on. It just so happens that in this particular forum the debates can get pretty heated and not everything you say is picked up on during the eagneress to reply. I myself have many times started reading an H/Hr's post and before I even get halfway through am ready to reply so I read the end faster and sometimes miss important points. That's one of the reasons I haven't posted here in a while and even now I'm lurking more than fully joining in. I just read the posts and normally another R/Hr shipper ends up posting what I would say but in the few cases they don't I jump in and post my opinion. A lot of fights happen in this thread (it's been closed a ton of times) so just don't get upset if you feel that you're not being heard, I've been here a long time and posted a ton, mainly in this thread (which, if I hadn't lost about 250 of my posts would be obivious) and I just wanna say it's not worth getting worked up over. Just keep repeating yourself, they have to listen eventually! ;)

[Ecthelion]

Ronrocks: Excellent reply :tu: Even though you registered here way before me I have not seen you on this thread nor anywhere else so.... :welcome: :D

Just a brief comeback on the perfume discussion.

Yes - perfume is seen as a traditional gift of love, originating in biblical times, the most notable being the gift of myrrh from the Magi to the baby Jesus.

Incidentally - please dispense with the idea that Hermione's description of it as unusual as being a euphemism for horrible. Here's the Oxford English Dictionary definition:

unusual: remarkable or interesting because different from or better than others

Agreed. Perfume is a traditional gift of love or affection. But I have to disagree with its incentives. Here's my reasoning why the perfume gift really meant nothing at all.

First of all, I think we can all agree on the fact that Ronny here, does not control his emotions very well. They are easily discernable to the point where he is practically carryies a bulletin that tells how he's feeling at the moment. I myself look forward to having Ron in an embaressing moment or tough situation to see what kind firework display he'll show for us. (exageration....sort of)

Alright, so Ron, in a situation that deals with high emotions, will not be able to control his facial features or conceal his true feelings. Remember this....

Ok, taking that into consideration, look at the situation of the perfume gift being exchanged. If Ron had really meant for this perfume to show his affection, wouldn't this be a highly emotional situation? I'd say it is. After all, it's openly saying that he likes her...something which everytime Ron has done so in various ways, his face turns red or he starts to yell....well, here he does nothing. This is so uncharacteristic of Ron not to show emotion in a high emotion moment. It doesn't fit? How then, if the perfume really did mean what can be presumed, could Ron take it so naturally? This is one of the reasons I don't see Ron giving this gift with romantic motives...just a gift he grabbed off the shelf in order to have something to give.

[Hawk 92]

OK

Now I've seen misinterpeted, misread, ignored and misuderstood. Let me establish this

I am disagreeing with the speculation presented in my running debate. And I am doing this from the text right here,

One of the Beauxbatons girls still clutching a muffler around her head gave what was unmistakeably a derisive laugh.
"No one's making you stay!" Hermione whispered, bristling at her.

1)JKR wrote this not Hawk 92.
2) All of this takes place before we know that Fleur is part Veela
3)JKR delibrately wrote that Fluer had a muffler around her head so that we didn't know what she looked like
4)JKR wrote all of this and shows that Hermione doesn't like Fleur before
a)we get a description of what she looks like
b)before we find out that she is part Veela
c)before there is any Ron/Fleur interaction

Now Hermione's reactions begin with bristled and end with scowled so there is nothing there to suggest any heightened emotions while this whole Ron/Fleur thing is going on. In fact the time that Fleur criticizes Hogwarts Hermione snapps at her and there is no Ron/Fleur interaction at all.

So once again based on the text I am disagreeing with this speculation and that's all I'm doing. Disagreeing.

Cheers!

[Grace Granger]

Harry has no reaction towards Hermione's kiss. He doesn't think why did she did it or seems space out like when it happend to Ron. Ron showed the reaction of normal boy that likes a girl. Harry didn't seemed floaty space out or even ponder upon the kiss on the next book. I see the diference on the kiss with the strong reaction Ron had that Harry didn't have. IMHO
Gily Ann


I think my fellow SHIPpers have forgotten something: Interruption Theory! Oh yeah baby, it's back!

The reason why we don't get any reaction from Harry is because Fred and George intervene.


Hawk keep up the good work!

[Turambar]

Nice post on Fleur, Hawk. :clap: Quite clearly JKR made us aware of Hermione's dislike of her before Ron flirted with her for a reason.
Evaluna: did you also think with the H/Hr touching scenes in OOTP that they were more instinctive with each other than in POA?
I just want to make a brief comment on Hermy Weasley2's post about how things could be happening off-camera but we, the reader, don't know about it. As someone who has written quite a lot myself in the past I want to say that that belief takes away the author's right to present the story as she wants to present it. Sentences, paragraphs, pages of text are crafted carefully by the author, to reveal themes, events, character development how she wants to reveal them. If a reader dismisses that approach, you are treating the work as though it is a piece of fan fiction to be reshaped at will. You take the author's power away.

[GryffindorGal]

Originally Posted by humongoratdropping

Didn't someone look up the definition of "unusual" to settle this little argument???
-------------------------------
I don't think that the definition is in question, it's the context that's beginning debated.
-------------------------------

Originally Posted by Sirius83
The Easter Eggs came after the second article. Also, if JKR wanted us to know Mrs. Weasley was angry about the first article - we would know through Bill or Percy.
-------------------------------

As it is we hear from Charlie that she's touched that he (harry) cries over his dead parents. So we know that she read that article. We also know that she knows Rita's ususal Modius Operandi (she refers to her as that "wretched Skeeter Woman" after the QWC.) Yet believes the 1st interview.

[_BT_]

DumbledoreTheWise: Oh I know, that was harsh. But really, you're just pushing the posts in circles, people!

lol... dude, of course they're going to go in circles. unless you haven't noticed, all romantic 'parts' in the book are up to interpretation. since there's no explicit statement of love, nothing can be proven one way or another. so naturally, the debate's going to kinda repeat itself

hermy_weasley2: well, I think I'll leave all of you here to argue. good Luck everybody!!! I think you're all taking this way tooo seriously anyway

i don't think anyone is taking this TOO seriously... at least i don't. i just like to debate some of the ideas here..it's fun. in all honesty, the romance part isn't what i'm looking forward to _most_ in book 6/7 (althought it's interesting)

Sirius83: Seriously though, both sides just run around in circles...it's been going on since the first love thread on both sides and this is the...wow, 9th...

lol, too true, too true. i've seen (and participated) on harry potter h/hr-r/hr love debates on usenet since book 1 was released.


anywho, i've already made 3 huge posts in this thread today... so i'm not going to examine anything in great detail tonight... but briefly:

The Perfume: friendly gift, nothing to prove it's romantic directly from the text

Fleur/Hermione: not jealousy, but general dislike/disapproval of veela (or veela like) behavior.

[sone]

I suppose another interesting point arising out of Hermione getting Harry to start talking to everyone, is this.

Either Hermione offered to try to talk to Harry and get him out of Buckbeak's room, or she was asked to do it, if this was the case I'd guess it was Mrs Weasley that was doing the asking, what with the fire being lit, sandwiches etc.

This at least hints at one of two intriguing possibilities. Firstly that Hermione believes that she can get through to Harry, even if others have failed to do so. Alternately someone else who was at 12GP believes that Hermione is able to reach Harry when others have failed.

Alternative interpretations welcome of course.

Elric, believe me there have been "alternative" interpretations. Like I said before, whatever Hermione said to the Weasley's, it was quick considering the snow had not melted nor had it been removed from her hair and her cheeks were still pink.

Anyway, this is speculation:

I'm thinking that as soon as Hermione came through the door, they wanted Hermione to talk to Harry at once. The Weasley's are very fond of Harry. I imagine they would be considering he is the best friend of one of them and he has now saved the life of Ginny and Arthur Weasley. I would suspect that Hermione did ask how Mr. Weasley was doing and then asked where Harry was. They say "up in Buckbeak's room. He won't look or talk to any of us and he hasn't eaten anything." Hermione being Hermione probably just said "I'll talk to him." Mrs. Weasley made sandwiches and Hermione probably asked them (Ron and Ginny) to carry them upstairs into the bedroom while she gets Harry. My basis for this is that it is clear the Weasleys nor Sirius do not know what to do to get Harry to stop ignoring them. They want to talk to him but they do not know how to initate a chat. Ginny may even be wondering why won't Harry talk to her....she at least knows how it feels to be possessed. I really do not think Ginny was impressed by Harry's answer despite the apology.

End speculation.

Now not only does Hermione get Harry out of that room, she does it quickly. I was reading this scene expecting Harry to shut her out as well, but he does not even try to oppose. This plays a big part to me because it reminds me of when Harry's short fuse is once again lit up by Ron and Hermione smiling when he is saying all the great things he did were mere luck (so many wish they had that type of "luck"). While Harry is going off, Ron is almost speechless. He starts off ok but soon he cannot really think of anything to say and he looks helplessly at Hermione. To me, it is like he is saying, "Hermione say something." She of course does. To add measure to how serious she actually is about Harry teaching them DADA, she says Voldemort for the first time and right there, Harry stops dead, calms down and slumps back into the chair.

What is signficant about these types of scenes is that Hermione does not know exactly what to say to Harry to get through to him or to calm him down. You can say she shoots in the dark but when she does, she hits right on target or as close as one is ever going to get. This is the same for Harry in all the great things he has done. Saving the stone, beating Riddle and the basilisk, fighting off the dementors, fighting off Voldemort and his death eaters alone enough to escape with Cedric's body. He does not exactly know what to do in those situations, yet when he acts, he usually hits dead on. When we see how Hermione and Harry react to each other physically when the one or the other is in danger or afraid, we do not see them with time to think straight or to make elaborate schemes. They have to react off their instincts.

Hermione's instinct is to hold on to Harry because it is he who she looks to protect her or be there for her. Harry's instinct is to be there for Hermione.....always though Harry hardly recognizes this. He won't let her fall (Hermione running into Hagrid and Harry being there to catch her), or ever let Grawp touch her without keeping her out of harm's way (Hermione clinging onto Harry really symbolizes this) or fighting tooth and nail for her (paraphrased " devoid of a wand, he was prepared to punch, bite or kick or whatever else it took") against Grawp. Not even for Cho would Harry give up Hermione. Not even a little bit. Hermione never told Harry why she had to meet him at the Three Broomsticks, he does not even bother to be suspicious of why she doesn't tell him. It is enough that she said it was important and that she did not have time to tell him. He lets that go without question even though he had no idea what he was going to meet her for.

Harry would of never said anything bad about Hermione to relieve Cho of her jealousy because he never did. Her being ugly would of been the least of all of them. Cho herself could not slide a criticism of Hermione pass Harry without him reacting to it. Cho I think realized at that point that if it came between herself and Hermione, he would choose Hermione. He chose Hermione over Cho on Valentine's Day, and now he chose Hermione over Cho again despite what happened to her friends's face. "If it was darling Hermione's idea". It does not even bother Harry that Cho thinks of them that way, he just rather not see Cho cry about it because he was getting annoyed. Harry made of been angry with Hermione but he never hated her, in fact it strangely drew him closer to her.

All of this goes back to the kiss at the end of the Goblet of Fire. Ever since then Harry has taken more notice of Hermione consciously and subconsciously but Hermione has always been there. She has always been thinking about him and as far as the book says, Harry is the first boy Hermione ever kisses. Viktor (well Goblet of Fire itself) gave us the clue. Paraphrased "she talks about you very often."

[Turambar]

Nice post Sone. A couple of things

Quote:
I'm thinking that as soon as Hermione came through the door, they wanted Hermione to talk to Harry at once. The Weasley's are very fond of Harry. I imagine they would be considering he is the best friend of one of them and he has now saved the life of Ginny and Arthur Weasley. I would suspect that Hermione did ask how Mr. Weasley was doing and then asked where Harry was. They say "up in Buckbeak's room. He won't look or talk to any of us and he hasn't eaten anything." Hermione being Hermione probably just said "I'll talk to him." Mrs. Weasley made sandwiches and Hermione probably asked them (Ron and Ginny) to carry them upstairs into the bedroom while she gets Harry.
xxxxxx

This could have been done very quickly. Which explains the very short time it took for Hermione to get upstairs.
Hr: "Hi Mr Weasley, how are you? How's Harry?"
A: "Not good"
M: "He's up in Buckbeak's room. He won't look or talk to any of us and he hasn't eaten anything."
Hr: "I'll go and talk to him and try and get him to come out".
M: "Take him to Ron's room. I'll make some sandwiches, Ron and Ginny can bring them up."

Quote:
To add measure to how serious she actually is about Harry teaching them DADA, she says Voldemort for the first time and right there, Harry stops dead, calms down and slumps back into the chair.
xxxxx

The same thing happens when Harry first meets up with Ron and Hermione. Harry gives full vent to his anger and it's only when Hermione tears up and says "You're absolutely right, Harry - I'd be furious if it was me!" that Harry at least stops shouting and cools it for a bit.

Quote:
What is signficant about these types of scenes is that Hermione does not know exactly what to say to Harry to get through to him or to calm him down. You can say she shoots in the dark but when she does, she hits right on target or as close as one is ever going to get. This is the same for Harry in all the great things he has done. Saving the stone, beating Riddle and the basilisk, fighting off the dementors, fighting off Voldemort and his death eaters alone enough to escape with Cedric's body. He does not exactly know what to do in those situations, yet when he acts, he usually hits dead on. When we see how Hermione and Harry react to each other physically when the one or the other is in danger or afraid, we do not see them with time to think straight or to make elaborate schemes. They have to react off their instincts.
xxxxxx

That's right. And they also know each other better than anyone else.
They can communicate with each other and have a significant impact on each other just with a glance or a sentence or two. For example when Hermione criticises Hagrid after Harry and Hermione come back from seeing Grawp.

Quote:
Hermione's instinct is to hold on to Harry because it is he who she looks to protect her or be there for her. Harry's instinct is to be there for Hermione.....always though Harry hardly recognizes this. He won't let her fall (Hermione running into Hagrid and Harry being there to catch her), or ever let Grawp touch her without keeping her out of harm's way (Hermione clinging onto Harry really symbolizes this) or fighting tooth and nail for her (paraphrased " devoid of a wand, he was prepared to punch, bite or kick or whatever else it took") against Grawp. Not even for Cho would Harry give up Hermione. Not even a little bit. Hermione never told Harry why she had to meet him at the Three Broomsticks, he does not even bother to be suspicious of why she doesn't tell him. It is enough that she said it was important and that she did not have time to tell him. He lets that go without question even though he had no idea what he was going to meet her for.
xxxxxx

Doesn't that reflect the Mutual Admiration Society established in PS?
"Harry - you're a great wizard, you know."
"I'm not as good as you."
In Hermione's eyes Ron is someone who needs her help at times, rather than somone she can count on to be strong for her on occasions when she needs it. And she doesn't mind calling on Harry's strength at times because she knows she can - and has - return the favour.

[SeniorFishy]

You know the first thing I thought about when I saw the Newsweek photograph where Hermione is clinging tightly to Harry was:

Hey its the scene from OotP where Harry pulls Hermione back from Grawps reach.

almost forgot that the scene had to be from PoA.

what I wonder is why Hermione was at the whole Grimmauld place during the vacation. It seems she would have to come up with a **** good excuse to distance herself from her parents. Plus doesn't she always go on vacations with her parents to other countries. I have a hard time believing she was able to convince her parents to let her stay at an underground movement against an evil wizard. I even have a hard time believing that she could convince her parents that she would stay with the Weasleys for the whole summer. Parents usually rather keen and spending time with their children, especially if they don't get to see them for the entire school year. Could it be possible that Hermione is another foster kid or something along that angle? Could she be a kid of a wizard who was slain by voldemort and grew up with foster muggle parents? She could even be related to ______. Arg.


too much theories to go around, i need book6 already.

[Turambar]

SeniorFishy: There's some curious aspects to the Christmas sequence.

Harry feels isolated from everyone from the start of the stay:
1) Harry is unable to help Ron during that long night while they wait for word about Arthur
2) Ron is unable to help Harry get out of his misery before Hermione arrives
3) Molly's brand of motherly affection doesn't help Harry either.
4) Sirius is unable to comfort him and Harry notes, while sitting upstairs in anguish, that Sirius is very happy and singing, because he's got a full house at Christmas
5) During the period before he hides away, Harry is aware he feels apart from the Weasleys. Guilt has a lot to do with this but he does think about the fact that as much as they treat him as part of the family, he isn't a family member. He's "intruding" on the family grief.
6) He feels "dirty", "contaminated" "unclean" with the "taint" of Voldemort and considers running away.

I wonder if this is meant, in part, to shed light on different characters' priorities.
Despite the fact that his godson is upstairs miserable, Sirius is happy because this is something good that's happening to him: he's been feeling lonely and bored - now he's got company to share Christmas with. And it's finally a great Christmas after years of misery for himself.
For Ron and the other Weasleys their priority is their family and they've just been dealing with a severe family crisis.
All Harry really has in life are his best friends, his surrogate family and his godfather. But as much as they care about him, they have other concerns at this time and he is isolating himself, cutting himself off from them.
Except Hermione, that is.
Compare Hermione's priorities to the others. She turns her back on her parents - whom she hasn't seen all year - and a nice holiday - to help her friend. That's self sacrifice.

There's a certain biblical symbolism about all this:
1) The timing of just before Christmas.
2) Harry's concern about being "possessed" and "unclean".
3) Hermione's self sacrifice in coming to Harry's rescue.
4) Her drawing him out of a room with a symbol of love (Buckbeak) present, complete with an almost romantic description of snow in her hair and her face pink with the cold.
5) The fact that Harry dreams that suspicious dream, that has a different feeling to it compared to the others, and with those suspicious words "something he wanted with all his HEART lay beyond".
6) The fact that Harry goes from the depths of despair to his "heart swelled with happiness and relief" after Hermione, Ron and Ginny make him feel better.
It's interesting that earlier Harry is worried about attacking people. He thinks Ron is scared to be in the same room with him. Yet Hermione arrives and he opens the door without a second thought.
I also like the way Hermione totally downplays what she's done, coming up with the excuse that skiing's not her thing. Maybe. But it's still a holiday. With her parents.
She seems to instinctively know that the right approach is to cut through Harry's fear and despair rather than allow him to wallow further in melancholy feelings.

[FlyingPhoenix]

I did mention that JKR did come to HP in a train as an imagination and Harry did meet Hermione on a train. Now what I think is interest is the fact that JKR dos always remind us that Hermione is a lot like herself! So if she is a lot like herself than this say JKR did meet Harry in a train and Harry did meet Hermione on a train. Just interesting.

Now what I think is really a hint if not a proof for H/Hr is the very interesting comment of JKR about Luna.
See you have to listen what she say especially if it not related to Harry.
Luna is the anti-Hermione. That is what JKR did say. She is un-logical, strange, just different as Hermione. If you like you can say she isn't that much emotional like Hermione.
Now Luna do fancy very obviously Ron. She sings dreamly "Weasley is our king!" she tells him she had love it to go with him to the ball. So she clearly fancy Ron that is what JKR did show in OotP.

Do you realise what the opposite to this is? The opposite to Ron? Its Harry. He is opposite of Ron and if you take Lunas obvious way than you can imagine how Hermione might fancy someone. Exactly in the secret. Not obvious but in the dark. Just like H/Hr shipper say.

Its interest that JKR did say anti-Hermione.

Something about love its again JKR who said right after OotP that she only believe in the magic of love. So she write books about magic do you believe she let this kind off magic out if this is the only magic she believe in? This implied we might get some magic in book6.

Great post so far but I need to read this at first

[Daveydee]

So, FP, the logical outcome of your argument above then is that, given that Ron and Hermione are opposites and attract each other, then Harry and Luna as opposites also attract each other.

Seriously though:

Do you realise what the opposite to this is? The opposite to Ron? Its Harry. He is opposite of Ron and if you take Lunas obvious way than you can imagine how Hermione might fancy someone. Exactly in the secret. Not obvious but in the dark. Just like H/Hr shipper say.
Ron and Harry - opposites? I don't really think so, do you?

[Turambar]

FP: I really liked Luna as a character and to me from the point of view of the series structure, she does suit Ron more than Harry.
Harry's end romance is the one that needs to be appropriate for the more serious themes of the series and needs to carry emotional depth.
And if it is with Hermione, the reader looking back on the series once it's finished will be able to see that relationship as the backbone of the Harry Potter story.
Luna is rather like Ron in the sense that while they have their dramatic moments they can be really entertaining - there's a lot of scope for fun.

[Hawk 92]

seniorfishy

My own speculated theory on why Hermione was at 12 Grimmauld Place runs more along the lines of since Voldemort had returned Dumbledore wanted to protect those who are close to Harry. Now Harry couldn't be harmed at his Uncle's so he just had to be watched. And so Dumbledore probably thought it best that Hermione and Ron stay at 12 Grimmauld Place for their protection.

Cheers!

[FlyingPhoenix]

Ron and Harry - opposites? I don't really think so, do you?

I do. Just try a look at the background: Harrys parents are dead, he lifes with his realive which hate him.

Ron lives with his parents which love him, he has a big family.

Harry didn't know he is a wizard till he was 11.

Ron did know it all the way

Harry is rich and famous.

Ron is poor and not famous.

Ron is an open guy. He show his emotions

Harry is closed, He don't show his emotions.

If this isn't opposite than I don't know.

So, FP, the logical outcome of your argument above then is that, given that Ron and Hermione are opposites and attract each other, then Harry and Luna as opposites also attract each other.
If you take it like I take it and say if people have some things in common they will understand each other.
Look at Hermione and Luna. Do they understand each other? No. They are opposite. So if Ron and Hermione are opposite, too this say they might not work in that way.

All Harry really has in life are his best friends, his surrogate family and his godfather. But as much as they care about him, they have other concerns at this time and he is isolating himself, cutting himself off from them.All Harry really has in life are his best friends, his surrogate family and his godfather.
Except Hermione, that is.
Compare Hermione's priorities to the others. She turns her back on her parents - whom she hasn't seen all year - and a nice holiday to help her friend. That's self sacrifice

Very true. This is what I mean as I said why didn't Sirius try it or the Weasleys. I mean really try it. They had other problems at this moment.
If you take this scene than you might understand what I mean if I say Harry need someone who love him, this love which include sacrifice.
You see there Harry is alone and falls into the dark but there is this hammering that what Harry at least expected that someone would try and get him out. Its even more surprising that it is Hermione.
Harry was right the other did isolate him. Better I say they make it easy for him to do so. To let him fall into the dark. Nobody did fight against it or prefend it. They just let it happen. But Hermione not.
Its not important why she is there if it only for Harry or not important is that she is there. That she hammered against the door. Even she knew the other try it. What dos she think that she can do it better?
I doubt this. It just her way. She is just like that since PS/SS she is interfering. She don't let someone fall away, she don't let it happen.

Some say Hermione and Ron might fall apart of Harry. This scene show how it can be in book6. That the Weasleys can't reach Harry, Remus can't reach him and even Dumbledore not. I don't say its because they don't care or Harry don't let them. Its much more the fact that nobody of them is that interfering. Harry need Hermione. Not so much her intelligenc. He need her way. This way to be interfering no matter what. She don't stop and shut up and wait till he comes out again. She go to him nagg him, annoy him till he comes out. That is what he will need. Especially after OotP. It might be that nobody try to annoy him or to nagg him to come out off this shadows but Hermione will do this. That is her way. That why he need her badly.

[Turambar]

FP: I think the difference is passion. The Weasleys and Sirius were well meaning and concerned but without the drive to go that extra mile. Hermione wasn't going to take no for an answer.

[sone]

Speaking of passion, I thought it was funny that after Harry looked at Hermione's slight frown and nodded, Hermione was silent. Not one word. Same with Harry. Not with Ron though. He is excited. Then when she and Harry see Ron celebrating and rolling around on the half rug, Harry gives a "reluctant" grin, Hermione gives Ron a look of "deep" disgust.

Harry and Hermione do not really want to talk about it but they do anyway. Hermione is jealous because it was not her that Harry was kissing. Harry maybe is not happy about the kiss because it was not Hermione that he was kissing.

[humongoratdropping]

No, not really. What, Harry likes to "kiss and tell"?
I really don't think so.

[ronrocks]

Thanks for the welcome Ecthelion! I have been mostly a lurker up till now. But I have always enjoyed coming to the love thread and reading all the great debates and discussions.

I find it very significant that Hermione is the one able to get Harry out of Buckbeaks's room. Harry is in the house with most of the people who love and care about him, but he sits alone in Buckbeak's room feeling very sad and isolated and none of them are able to get him to come out...not his best friend Ron, not his godfather Sirius and not the motherly and kind Mrs. Weasly. But then Hermione comes to the door and is able to lure him out very quickly. She hammers on his door until he opens it. Hermione was not going to go away without getting Harry out of that room, and I think Harry knew that. Hermione was supposed to be on vacation with her parents but here she was instead at Grimmauld Place becuse Harry needed her. I do think that someone must have let Hermione know what was happening with Harry and that why she gave up her vacation with her parents.

I find the after kiss scene interesting too, Sone. Why did Hermione have a slight frown on her face and was her tone described as brisk and businesslike when asking Harry if him and Cho kissed? Was she a bit jealous?