And as in the beginning as in the end

[Crayak]

This line was in a song I was singing today and it got me thinking. We all know JKR has the ending all figured out and hearing that line made me really want to finish this theory I have been working on for a while.

We have all pretty much agreed that the power in the DoM is the power of his heart. Assuming he needs to open the door to beat Voldemort that would mean Opening the Door to His Heart. How poetic. It definately sounds like something JKR would do. Harry Potter has had a difficult life so far. Not least of all seeing people he knows or loves dying. He has seen his parents, Cedric, and Sirius die. The last two we know he blamed on himself. Basic psychological analysis would tell us that he will never let someone he loves die in his presence again. How will he prevent death you ask? Self-sacrifice.The ultimate act of love.

You may be thinking now, well if he sacrifices himself that would mean that Voldemort wins and JKR wouldn't do that? Well, not exactly. We have been told over and over that saving one's life creates a strong bond between two people. How strong though? Strong enough to banish a Dark Lord perhaps? Chemistry tells us that the breaking of a bond creates energy. That energy would presumably be used against Voldemort.

Of course, if Harry does sacrifice himself, that brings up the question of who? Who will Harry sacrifice himself to save? The answer I believe is Hermione. Many of you have probably heard this,(Hermione - Hermione was a character in Greek mythology who was loved by two men. She was the daughter of Helen of Troy and Menelaus. These men (Orestes 2 and Neoptolemus, the son of Achilles) fought terribly for the love of the beautiful Hermione. Orestes 2 was killed by a snake. Hermione translates as "well-born" in Greek.), explanation of the origin of Hermione's name. I present a new one to you. On my vacation to Colorado this summer I came across an animal called an "Ermine", pronounced Er-my-knee(Ron called Hermione this one time when his mouth was full). Now an Ermine is a type of weasel. In CoS(the key book of the series) we learn that only a weasel can kill a basilisk(aka the King of Serpents). Who else is known by that name? Salazar Slytherin of course. And whom is descended from Slytherin and is now the reigning bad guy? Voldemort. So would it be safe to assume that Voldemort could be killed by a weasel?

What does all of this leave us with? In the end Harry will sacrifice himself to save Hermione from Voldemort thereby killing him. As in the beginning as in the end. The story begins with a potter sacrificing themself to save someone and, in doing so, getting rid of Voldemort. So fitting that the story would end in the same way. This also clears the way for the reunion of Harry, his parents, and Sirius in the afterlife. Ties up all the loose ends quite nicely. Any questions or comments?

[Hpmons]

That is an excellent theory, and I feel like hopping on two feet doing "eeni meeni meini mo" to decide whether I believe it or not!

I do quite like the theory that Harry will sacrice himself to save somebody, and Hermione is one of the most likely candidates.

I also like the way you mention about bonds between people (and chemical bonds...) and I think this is a very good thing to bring up; as it has been featured twice so far (Lily-Harry, James-Snape, and Peter-Harry - though we havent seen the outcome of Peters).

[Daveydee]

Very thoughtful idea, but I still don't get the Harry=weasel connection.

And Ermine is pronounced ER-min.

[Sirius83]

Nice theory. Scary, but good. What doesn't make sense to me though, is if Harry's going to die, why then does Ron have the death signs?

[Crayak]

The Weasel connection wasn't to Harry. It was to Hermione.

I geuss the difference in pronunciation is just a regional kind of thing. The old po-tay-to po-tah-to thing. Not really important though.


I don't know what death signs you're talking about with Ron, but who knows. He may die too. I don't know. The trio does have a lot of secrets, and as the old saying goes "Three can keep a secret if two of them are dead."

[mad_for_lupin]

Interesting theory! I had thought of the connection of the name Hermione in Shakespeare, but I didn't know she was the daughter of Helen of Troy. I don't want to see Harry die, but your theory makes sense.

[Fortescue]

I think it's an interesting theory. I don't agree with some of it, but I like the idea of Harry sacrificing himself for some cause or person.

[Mirror of Erised]

I believe it will be Ron who passes, not Harry.
I think you are most definately right about Ron and Harry going to have a fight about Hermione, but I believe this will lead to Ron straying away from his friendship with Harry until the final showdown with Lord Voldemort. Where Ron will sacrifice himself for Harry and their friendship... That will run on the predictions of Ron's death, and I also think after Harry witnesses this (along with Hermione being threatened) will finally give him the gumption to wipe Lord Voldemort's carcass clean out of the series With an act of power that will never have been seen from before, or again.

[FreyaCrescent]

That's an excellent post, and an excellent theory Crayak! I just have one question:

Whereabouts in CoS does it say a weasel is the only thing that can kill a Basilisk? Could you point it out.. I didn't see that part! I thought the only thing a Basilisk ran from was a rooster, because the crowing of a rooster was fatal to it.

[rons-lover]

That is an interesting theory. And the thing with things coming full circle(Harry dying as a sacrifice, still I think he could die for Ron, or maybe both Ron And Hermione. Makes sense, Harry loves his friends.!). So the thing is I hate how people always like all the loose ends tied up, how oft' does that happen in real life? Not to much. It happens in Hollywood. lol Though Harry Potter is fantasy, it is closely tied to reality as is all great fantasy.! :D

So yup.!

[Crayak]

Sorry, I was crossing my references on that. I can't check now because my sister has my books, but it was either in FB or in my additional notes on basilisks. I'll get back to you on that later though.

[Robin]

Why link Hermione to weasel? Isn't Ron WEASLEY <-> weasel an easier connection than Hermione <-> Ermine <-> Weasel ...

"the Basilisk flees only from the crowing of the rooster, which is fatal to it." - Chamber of Secrets

Nothing about any weasel

[Catgirl]

I like the theory of Harry sacrificing himself, but I don't think it would be for Hermionie.
Maybe Harry will find love somewhere else and then sacrifice himself for her.
Maybe the long-lost relative theory will happen. In Buffy the Vampire Slayer Buffy sacrificed herself to save her sister, Dawn, even though she hadn't always been in her life, because of how strong their blood-ties were and how much she loved her.
Don't rule out the theory of Harry dieing for a new character. Sirius didn't come into the story untill the third book and he and Harry only became a part of each others life at the end of the book and yet Sirius sacrificed himself for Harry.
Harry could also sacrifice himself to save a lot of innocent people.

[RedCape]

Perhaps Peter (a.k.a. Wormtail) will sacrifice himself to save Harry. That would tie up a lose end or two.

Peter's actions caused the beginning of book one. Perhaps his actions will cause the end of book seven.

[morgan le fay]

i love your idea crayak, and all that hermione-ermine stuff is interesting. but when you mentioned


We have been told over and over that saving one's life creates a strong bond between two people. How strong though? Strong enough to banish a Dark Lord perhaps? Chemistry tells us that the breaking of a bond creates energy. That energy would presumably be used against Voldemort.


it made me think of peter, like red cape said. plus jkr made a point of DD telling harry something about how when you save someones life, it creates a special bond. great theory, though! ^_^ it has closure in it. i like closure.

[Crayak]

Thanks for all the feedback people. I found where the weasel/basilisk thing was coming from. It was in a mythology book that JKR said she got a lot of her information on creatures from.

[caroline40]

I still doubt that JKR would have Harry effectively committing suicide not the best example to her younger readers .
I think if Harry does die it will be accidentally definately not a conscious decision on Harrys part.

[Summergurl]

now, this may seem stupid but im kinda wondering this.....


the book is seen through Harry, not through his eyes but we are ALWAYS with him...almost like a ghost following him around...when he leaves a room, we leave, when he enters, we enter. so if he kicks the bucket at the very end..where does the view point go?? you know??

If Hermione is there with Harry at this point and Harry is laying lifeless it wouldnt make sense to say something like "Hermione looked at Harrys lifeless body..." blah blah blah. thatd be switiching views wouldnt it? am I making sence??????? lol We are always with Harry but once he dies he isnt there anymore....unless we follow him to the afterlife. Please tell me I make sence lol.

I am torn between the Peter sacrificing himself for Harry or Ron sacrificing himself for Harry....

[Hpmons]

We are almost always with Harry (OK; we are always with him, apart from one small scene which isnt that important anyway...)

I understand what you mean, that when he dies, the view point will have to change.

What I beleive, is that IF Harry does die, the viewpoint will be neutral. It will tie up loose ends about what happens to various people, what they feel, how they get on with their lives, and the final paragraph will be some philisophical thing, or just one sentance to sum up all seven book in a neat sentance.

Soo many people could sacrifice themselves for Harry, its hard to decide who WILL though. Dumbledore, Snape, Wormtail, Hermione, Harry, Nagini, a flobberworm...

[RedCape]

As in the beginning, as in the end.

The very first chapter of PS/SS, The Boy Who Lived is NOT from Harry's point of view. We start out with the Dursleys day and end with Dumbledore and McGonagal waiting for Hagrid to bring Harry. Harry finally arrives and is left on the doorstep.

I don't think Harry is going to die at the end of book seven. But, the last chapter of book seven could very well be an omniscient point of view.

[hesdead-dealwithit]

As in the beginning, as in the end.

The very first chapter of PS/SS, The Boy Who Lived is NOT from Harry's point of view. We start out with the Dursleys day and end with Dumbledore and McGonagal waiting for Hagrid to bring Harry. Harry finally arrives and is left on the doorstep.

I don't think Harry is going to die at the end of book seven. But, the last chapter of book seven could very well be an omniscient point of view.

Yeah, it's supposed to be an epilogue of sorts, telling what happens to everyone. (By the way, the first chapter of GoF is also omniscient)

[Pumpkin Juice]

Since the thread I started was closed and not merged and there are things I'd like to reply to, I'm going to reply in this forum. :) Hope you don't mind, it was one of the two reccomended and I chose it because it was the shorter of the two. :)

Here is the link (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?p=888291#post888291) to that thread.

This is what I had written to begin that thread.

What's Harry going to do after he defeats Voldemort? (And I'm feeling positive he will survive.)

Honestly, I could hear Harry saying the exact same words Frodo spoke at the end of "Return of the King."

"How do you pick up the threads of an old life? How do you go on, when in your heart you begin to understand there is no going back? There are some things time cannot mend. Some hurts that go too deep that have taken hold."

He defeats Voldemort, he'll be an even bigger celebrity than he is now, and he's already feeling uncomfortable when people stare at his scar. He doesn't like what he's famous for because of what it means - of all the people he lost. That scar is a reminder to him that he lost his parents and was raised by relatives who didn't love him and had a miserable childhood. And in his fight against Voldemort, he's already witnessed the deaths of two people, Cedric and Sirius, and Sirius hit him the hardest, harder even than his own parents death sense he hadn't formed the bond with them as he had with Sirius. And we can pretty much assume he's going to experience the pain of more deaths in the future.

Right now, he has the focus to keep going - Voldemort. It's his mission in life, to save the world. But once he saves the world, once he defeats Voldemort once and for all, what's he going to do? After all, he doesn't have the Gray Havens to go to like Frodo.

The only thing I could see him doing is surrounding himself with the people who love him, don't treat him like a celebrity, and can feel his pain along with him. So around the Weasley's or Lupin or Tonks or his school friends. The Weasley's would really work great if he ended up falling in love with Ginny and marrying her. Then he'd really have a solid family connection with them. Of course we don't know who's going to die still in the future.

Where is he going to find healing for his soul when all is said and done and he's left with the memory of all the people he loved and lost?

What would he do if all the people he loved died? Would he be able to find a corner of the world where no witch or wizard lived where he could live out the rest of his life in peace and isolation? That's the most depressing thought, that he'd have no one left once he defeated Voldemort.

[Pumpkin Juice]

Personally I think Harry will die and if he survives Harry won't become an Auror. I think that his whole life at the point up until and after the final defeat may be hard on him. I can see Harry taking a couple of years to live solitary - travel the world that sort of thing and then return to normality as he knows it. But it will change him.
I think he would be a great auror, but I agree that I don't think he'll become one. I don't think after Voldemort he would have the desire or heart to keep going after dark wizards and witches. I could see him returning to Hogwarts to teach DADA some day, but I think he would was a break for awhile.

And how likely would it seem to him right now that will ever be successful at that?
How likely does it seem right now that Harry can defeat Voldemort? Extremely likely. The odds are in his favor. After all, if you read what happened in book 5 at the Ministry of Magic when Voldemort finally took control of Harry's body and spoke through him telling Dumbledore to kill the boy, it wasn't Dumbledore who sent Voldemort fleeing for his life, it was Harry. When Harry thought about Sirius, that love and compassion or whatever, is what sent Voldemort fleeing. Harry won that battle on his own, proving his power over Voldemort. Afterwards he might not have felt that way, but that's what happened. Harry defeated Voldemort, not Dumbledore or anyone else.

So don't you think that no matter how greviously injured he ends up becoming, the fact that he has the chance to live out the rest of his life and that he and the people he cares about are safe- don't you think it will come as a relief?
I never meant to imply it wouldn't be a relief. I'm sure it will be. But it's very possible it will be overshadowed by the grief and despair of all the people he loved and lost. A bitter-sweet victory of sorts.

2. From a more plot-related point of view, i think, in a way, it would be a better ending if Harry doesn't live. I don't doubt that he will kill voldemort - there's no way that evil will triumph, that goes against the entire ethos of the series. however, it's not jkr's style to have harry defeat voldie and everything to go singing and clapping to a nice disney ending with them all folloping (pardon the adamsian reference) into the sunset. bittersweet would be a much more powerful ending.
Though I think he'll live with a bittersweet ending. This is a young readers book and tragic deaths of the heroes I don't think are common in young readers literature and I don't think would be accepted very well. I think people might boycott the series if she chose to kill Harry in the end and many people who had loved the books might end up hating it. Just my thoughts though. :)

She's earnt them enough money.
I think she's earned herself enough money that if she wanted to, she could retire now and never finish the series and live comfortably. Although that might put her life in danger from disgruntled fans who want a conclusion to the HP series. :p I imagine though that she enjoys writing books and will keep at it for that reason. ;)

Please perform a search before starting a new thread.
I do wish people would stop accusing me of not trying to find threads. I do try to find threads on topics before deciding to start a topic on my own. All you had to do was mention the threads that had already been started on the topic, I didn't appreciate the accusation that I didn't at least try to find a similar topic. It's interesting, I've never seen the issue of repetative threads be this big a deal anywhere except on Harry Potter boards. Usually if a couple months go by without a reply, people aren't bothered with a new post being made.

[Baron_G]

How likely does it seem right now that Harry can defeat Voldemort? Extremely likely ... When Harry thought about Sirius, that love and compassion or whatever, is what sent Voldemort fleeing. Harry won that battle on his own, proving his power over Voldemort. Afterwards he might not have felt that way, but that's what happened. Harry defeated Voldemort, not Dumbledore or anyone else.
.
.
.
I never meant to imply it wouldn't be a relief. I'm sure it will be. But it's very possible it will be overshadowed by the grief and despair of all the people he loved and lost. A bitter-sweet victory of sorts.
The question was, how likely would it seem to Harry that he could defeat LV? You heard him. He admits he couldn't fight the way Voldemort did that night. He couldn't possess or kill people. Dumbledore only talked about a vague power but was Harry convinced he could beat LV with it? To me and you, it may be conceivable that Voldemort could be defeated with ease but he doesn't know that. He somehow managed to drive Voldemort away from his mind/body just when he was overcome with the pain of it, when he was willing to die- which was why he thought of Sirius last and that turned out to be the counter to this assault.

Look where he is now. Unless he falls in love with a girl and she gets in the way of an AK cast by him(when he learns how to do it), it would be hard to top what happened with Sirius. It was Harry who had led Sirius to his death. A few more people could die and Harry would only feel as worse as he does right now or when he was in Dumbledore's office and wanted it all "to end". He has to face the horror of it all- Everybody, every single muggle or wizard who dies would be because of a still living Voldemort and whose burden is that? Heck, he doesn't even have the luxury to die himself and meet his parents in the afterlife, because that failure would cause his remaining loved ones to suffer in this world, that has a living and vengeful Voldemort. Which is why I say that after coming out of that mindset, any future will start to look rosy.

[RoadSafetyGirl]

I really like the idea of Harry going to sacrifice himself to save Hermione, I think it is an excellent theory. It makes sense that Voldermort will go after Hermione because she is Muggle-born, and if you take how much the Malfoys hate her, I think its likely she will find herself in danger but that may be going slightly off topic! ... I also agree with the idea of an estrangement theory with Ron where they only reunite at the end to save Hermione together, so winning the battle?

[Buckbeak2004]

Neat theory. I wouldnt be surprised if you're the smarty pants thats worked it all out.

[Pumpkin Juice]

I think it's more likely Ron would die to save Hermione if it ever came to that. He is the one who's always willing to die and he's the one with the strongest feelings for Hermione.

[Buckbeak2004]

Neat theory tane.

[brighteyes]

I do agree that Harry sacrificing himself would make a good ending. The "power" Harry has may relate to Harry not being afraid of death and Voldemort fearing death more than anything. But Harry sacrificing himself for Hermione? No. Even Ron would be more likely, he is the thing he would miss the most.
This could also have something to do with "Harry having Lily's eyes" thing, because eyes represent their characters, so Harry sacrificing himself like his mother would make sense. Maybe someone else will end up with a scar at the end?

[Marie Lexis]

That's a great theory and totally agree with it. Although towards the middle it was getting kind of confusing. But I figured it out.

[luv2read]

I also think the theory of Harry sacrificing himself is a high possibility. Interesting fact you picked up in Colorado!

I think he may even sacrifice himself for both Ron & Hermione. Maybe with the timeturner, they'll go back and somehow save him too. That would really tie up loose ends. I think there is going to be a fall out between Ron & Hermione and Harry. Harry will be jealous of Ron and Hermione's relationship which will create a rift between them, but in the end he will realize how much they are his friends (maybe because they risk their own lives to help him or something) and then he will sacrifice himself for them both.

[shaggydogstail]

I can imagine Harry being willing to sacrifice himself to save one of his friends, but I don't think he will actually die. I can see the appeal of history coming "full-circle" with Harry defeating Voldy by sacrificing himself BUT, there is a big flaw in this theory.

Lily's sacrifice saved Harry, but it didn't defeat Voldy - only made him very weak. It may be that Harry's willingness to sacrifice himself helps to defeat Voldy - we know he doesn't fear death the way Voldy does, 'cos this helped him "drive out" Voldy when he possessed him in OotP.

I think Harry will survive at the end, partly because I think he is the only one who could ever be sure that Voldy was dead (that "connection" thing). Also, I think we need to know his feelings at the end to bring some resolution to the story. He might lose his magical powers though - maybe this would be his sacrifice?

[yxs]

Well, theories get wilder and wilder...

And I just can't believe people want Harry to sacrifice himself!

When this story is all about getting him a life he deserves... his parents already sacrificed themselves for him.

That's the worst ending this story could have.
I mean... death, angst, death, angst, pain, suffering, sacrifice, tragedy through all the books... and in the end... also. It has no balance like this.

I'm sure Rowling knows how to write a good story where good and bad, life and death are balanced and with a fair ending for her main character. He deserves normal life.
And he will kill Voldemort... because as long as both are living, they both can't have a normal life.

[Eido]

Basic psychological analysis would tell us that he will never let someone he loves die in his presence again.
Or, slightly less dire, Harry refuses to let anyone near him. He blames himself for Cedric's and Sirius' deaths, so he keeps everyone at arm's length in the next two books. Becomes more emotionally distant, thus tries to keep the danger of himself away from those who already cares about. Just as he tried to do in OOTP (after he'd overheard Voldemort possibly using him as the weapon via possession).

Harry being more emotionally distant and, in theory, love being what's hidden behind the DOM Locked Door. It would make it more difficult for Harry to open such a door if he is isolating himself from any/everyone. Even if it is more wonderful and more terrible than death.... it looks like Harry is going to have to open that door whether he wants to or not.

[srenne1982]

Something that has been bothering me is the Idea of Harry Killing Voldemort. JK has told us that we need to answer the question of why Voldemort didn't die that night in Godrics Hollow. We all know he took steps to see that he would have immortality because of his speech in the graveyard in GoF, but JK very recently told us to ask this question, there has to be more to it. All of the sacrificing ideas could be pointless unless we find out the true 100% reason behind the fact that Voldemort is still alive.

[LilCubanita67]

Chemistry tells us that the breaking of a bond creates energy. That energy would presumably be used against Voldemort.

Nice going...remind me of my chemistry final on Monday!(The joys of being a college student)


In CoS(the key book of the series) we learn that only a weasel can kill a basilisk(aka the King of Serpents). Who else is known by that name? Salazar Slytherin of course. And whom is descended from Slytherin and is now the reigning bad guy? Voldemort. So would it be safe to assume that Voldemort could be killed by a weasel?

Maybe Ron won't kill Voldemort...he'll probably kill another Slytherin. I'm definately sticking to the prophecy which says that only Harry (though others will argue Neville too) will be able to kill Voldemort. But there is a big chance that Harry will sacrifice himself, because that's just the type of guy that he is, and Voldemort knows that only too well (remember that whole bit in OTTP where Harry went to go save Sirius' life and it was all but a trick?).