His Dark Materials

[symplet]

Have any of you read that trilogy by Philip Pullman? To begin, here are the sumary of the three books:

You can find summaries of the three books here:
The Golden Compass (http://www.randomhouse.com/features/pullman/goldencompass/index.html)
The Subtle Knife (http://www.randomhouse.com/features/pullman/subtleknife/index.html)
The Amber Spyglass (http://www.randomhouse.com/features/pullman/amberspyglass/index.html)

These books are intended to be read by kids from 11 to 16. (Ok, I know I'm 20, but I read them anyway!) Don't get me wrong, those books are good: full of action and aventure and fantasy, but they are quite violent.

Anyway, the reason I want to discuss those books (because, yes, there IS a reason!) is because they really denigrate the Church and the Catholic Religion. While I was reading them, I couldn't stop thinking about all those priest saying that HP is the Devil's creation, when in His Dark Materials, the main objective of the protagonist is to win a war against Heaven. In Pullman's view, God, or 'The Authority' is the source of all oppression in the universe. The rebel angels represent freedom, tolerance and enlightenment. Lyra's father, Lord Asriel, helps to lead a new war against The Authority. Lyra's mother, the appalling Mrs. Coulter, has other ideas. She is a servant of the mighty and tyrannical Church.

As you can see, quite more provocative than HP!

For those who have read the books, what do you think of them?
For those who haven't read them, would you?

[EDIT] Oops! Thanks Alex!

[Erised]

I read them and loved them...though the ending was kind of sad...I have wondered why the radical christians have not singled this book out...the only thing I can think of is it's not as widely known...which also means that if the radical christians were a little more informed on books they might not attack Harry Potter so much...

[Emerson]

I've read the series - it's terrific! Probably second best children's book series I've read. I'm not sure about that recommended age though. It definitely seems to be targeted at teenagers (more mature then HP).
I've often wondered about why the radical christians haven't singled these out as well as HP. If they thought HP was evil then they'll go crazy over this.

Symplet, wasn't the first book in the series called "The Golden Compass?"

[Fuchsia]

I love the books. I read them when I was 20.
I'd be shocked though if most 11-16 year olds liked them.

[Ghost]

I wondered that too. I haven't read them in a while, but wasn't the first God a good and enlightened one, before he became demented? Wasn't he ousted from his position by the evil one?

I was surprised that the church and everyone in it were shown in such a bad light all the time. Everyone is totally corrupt. They don't care about making things better for everyone, only themselves. I found that priest who was an assassian and sent after Mary Malone a particularly repulsive character. All that repentence to absolve himself of a crime he's going to commit... :rasp: Don't think/hope that the Church doesn't agree with that one! And if not, I'd imagine all those zealots would really find something to whine about.

Still... cracking books. :D I liked that bit when the harpy clawed Lyra for being a lying little *****. :p

[go_anna40]

i loved it, even though i haven't read them for ages.

i find it really clever how Pullman how made up everything, gotta be hard to do that. the end is sad...but i loved them.

[MissPotterHead]

Oh my gosh, those books were amazing... far better than HP. They're not even in the same league! I'm reading "The Golden Compass" for the 15th time right now. The best part of it is, though, the orginality of the plot. It's so original, it's like a blow. I really like those books. Didja know they're making a movie out of TGC? I can't wait.

[go_anna40]

they were great, i was recommended to them when i was 12 by a teacher (i'm now 13) and it kinda get confusing, not getting some words and stuff, but i did get the big picture.

[MissPotterHead]

Definately read them over and over a few times; they get better. :)

[Tarawyn]

I'd say that the first book was probably the best of them. What was nice was that, to begin with, it was just a fantastic novel, a little childish, well-built and well-written. The major problem was that the potentially perfect story was somewhat spoiled by what became religious bashing. When you could separate actual Christianity from the written one, making it just another embellishment of the story, it was all right, but too much emphasis was put on the wrongness of the religion. I'd have to say that if the religious problems had only been a minor subplot, the story could have been more enjoyable.

[LewsTherin]

I read them and really enjoyed them. It's not as good as WoT (which I rate as the best series ever) but only a step below it. I basically just ignored the religious aspect and enjoyed the story, which was, as has been said, very original and entertaining. The plot has a bit of a hole in it, but that can be forgiven. Mrs Coulter is a simply stunning character, as is Lyra, and I look forward to seeing the films when they come.

[go_anna40]

i loved the character of Coulter and i loved the aspect of Daemons!! it's so cool!

[Ghost]

Apparantly Phil Pullman wants nothing to do with the movie adaption, and the story is being altered, not sure if it's to a greater or lesser degree though. I just hope they do right by the books... poke:

[go_anna40]

there's gonna be a movie?? i never knew that, they better make it good...

[groovypokie]

I have never read them before. But, if all of you are saying they are good then they must be. Are they very long?

[Ghost]

There's some info about it on this (http://www.darkmaterials.com/adap2-1.htm) site. :) Something else I found there...

Lyra will be changed into a boy for the movie adaptation.
This rumor has its root in an off-hand comment that Philip Pullman once made and has absolutely no bearing in fact. At this point the movie script hasn't even been written yet - therefore, there is no way of knowing how any of the characters are going to turn out.

How bad would it be if they made Lyra a guy... especially with her and Will being in love and all, if they made her a guy how would they explain that to the kiddies! :lol: And they Harry Potter's a bad influence... they'd go nuts over that!

*edit nah, groovypokie, well, they're longer than the HP books but not as long as the LOTR books. The Amber Spyglass is quite long compared to the others. They're a wonderful read, though. There's not enough pages in them. :)

[nonexistent]

I was recomended to read the books when I was 16 and after reading The Golden Compass, I had to go out and buy it. I rarely buy books, because I generally take 10 out at a time from the library and that's way too much money. I thought the religious aspect was an intresting perspective. I could see where he was coming from. I also liked how he worked some of the Inferno in with the Harpies and gate keepers. He really is a good storyteller. I actually cried at the end of the Amber Spyglass, it was so sad.

As for the movie, they better stay pretty close to the books or I'm not going to be happy. Lyra as a guy... how dumb is that? :rotfl: What movie bigwig thought that one up?

[Eva]

I absolutely love the books. I read them for the first time when I was about 13, I think, which was probably too young. I've read them many times since then, and every single time I get something new out of them (and cry at the ending :'( ). My brother (age 11) just read them. I tried to stop him, as he was far too young, but he still read them and liked them, but didn't love them, like he would have if he'd waited longer.

About the movie: those books have great potential to be turned into killer movies. There would be slight problems with the daemons, bears, harpies, etc., but if they got the right people for the parts they could be really good. They could also go horribly wrong very easily, though. It would be better if they waited a while so there were better special effects at hand.

[go_anna40]

i know how you feel Eva!!

a boy...Lyra!! *shivers* that will practically screw the story with Will.

[Ghost]

*snort* That it would... :p

Out of the little grove, away from the baffled Spectres, out of the valley, past the mighty form of his companion the armour-clad bear, the last little scrap of consciousness that had been the aeronaut Lee Scoresby floated upwards, just as his great balloon had done so many times. Untroubled by the flares and the bursting shells, deaf to the explosions and the shouts and cries of anger and warning and pain, conscious only of his movement upwards, the last of Lee Scoresby passed through the heavy clouds and came out under the brilliant stars, where the atoms of his beloved daemon Hester where waiting for him.

:sigh: :( :'(

That's the only part I cried at. *wipes away another lil tear*

[Alicia_Potter]

I read them when I was twelve, and like Kelly, I read them over and over again. They were well written and the plot of fantastic. It was very profound and left a lot to think about. I will not be seeing the movie because I just know that I won't like it. I have perfect pictures of everything in the book.

[rebkos]

so what do you guys think about the upcoming movie?

[outk0ld]

I think any movie that brings the general populace closer to respect for that which is fantasy literature is definitely a good thing. One thing that kills me...

"Do you read fantasy books?"

"No, only Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings."

Whaaa??

[martinnyg]

I liked the two first books, but i think the third really sucked with gay angels, minors having sex and the balloon guy died :'( I didn't like that. But the first two were really great

[go_anna40]

It was sad how Lara's dad killed her friend just for an experiment in the first one. *sniff*

[Inkwolf]

I loved the first, liked the second, and found the third dull and disappointing.

Re the religious bashing, did you notice, though, that the religion of Lyra's world is science? It's been said before that science is like a religion, with scientific heretics being 'excommunicated' and such, and I think the point the book was making was not anti-religion, but against the tendency of science and the quest for knowledge to become cold, impersonal, and uncaring. Science is just as often callously cruel in the search for knowledge as it is helpful. I think it was a criticism of the scientific community, in the allegorical form of a religion. The true nemesis in these books is the relentless, ruthless quest for knowledge--which makes it ironic that Asrael is also a ruthless scientist, and Lyra must learn everything she does (in the 'Garden of Eden', yet) to overthrow the tyranny.

[Tarawyn]

Now that you put it that way, I'm leaning more towards that side, but there are enough parallels in it to circle back to some bashing. In his world, Pullman merged God and science into one dangerous force, the knowledge dangerous but ignorance moreso. It's a question of cause and effect. Yes, their science is ruthless and cruel, but the Church isn't completely scientific. Religion seems to be what caused the desperate search for knowledge; the roots limited truth, and they looked for the explanation. It could be considered an allegory, but, judging by the tangibility and some of Pullman's comments, it's not. When you see a problem, you automatically look for the ones who caused it.

[harryton]

i havent read those books, yet but i think that those who are trying to rid of hp just dont appreciate good writing.

[MagpieOnaga]

Originally posted by Inkwolf
I loved the first, liked the second, and found the third dull and disappointing.

That's more or less how I felt about them as well. Except, I really hated the third one. Or, more accurately, I hated that almost all the questions I had were never answered -- at least not to my satisfaction. I still don't know what dust is. :rolleyes:

I loved "The Golden Compass" -- absolutely loved it. The concept of daemons was so intriguing, and I was hoping to find out more about them in the second and third books. Unfortunately, the story pretty much neglected the idea of the daemons as it progressed. I was bitterly dissapointed.

I thought the second and third books were sloppy and uninteresting.

Oh yeah, and the parts with the animals that rolled around on wheels -- what the....?!?



Sorry, I don't mean to bash on anyone's favorite books, but I just wasn't that impressed with the way the series turned out. I really did love the first one, though, and I definitely think the series had wonderful potential.

[rebkos]

Originally posted by martinnyg
I liked the two first books, but i think the third really sucked with gay angels, minors having sex and the balloon guy died :'( I didn't like that. But the first two were really great


They didn't have sex! They were just proven to be very attracted to each other, and they discovered they were in love.

The touching the daemon stuff was suppose to be like making out.

[Rowena Ravenclaw]

Hmm...unlike everyone else, I sort of liked the first one and loved the second one. I agree the third one was disappointing, though. I particularly hated what happened to Mrs. Coulter. All the fire got taken out of her. What a letdown. :(

Anyway, I don't think the books were so much anti-science or anti-religion as anti-hierarchy and stagnation. I don't think the Church in Lyra's world or most of the scientists in Will's were really looking for knowledge--or rather, they were looking for a very specific type of knowledge that would fit with their own worldview and further their own ends, rather than something that would open them up to new possibilities. (I guess that was kind of Inkwolf's point. :o)

And I can't wait to see how they handle the movie. Tom Stoppard (one of my favorite playwrights) is supposedly working on the adaptation. :D

[go_anna40]

Yes, The Amber Spyglass was sort of disappointing. I loved the first one and the second one was better! The creation of "The Subtle Knife" must of taken a lot of imagination. I haven't read it recently, so, I can't really remember things.

[With Rye]

MagpieOnaga, the mulefas are my absolute favorite aspect of the entire series =P I kept getting annoyed when the story shifts to the other uninteresting things, like the whole epic battle and all that. The whole nifty, and extrememly original, concept of the organisms with diamond-shaped forms fascinated me to no end. I wish there were more such creative lifeforms in other fantasy series, instead of the cliché batch of mythological/legendary stuff.

When I was reading through, I suddenly realized the story had no humor whatsoever. That was quite a turn-off. Yeah, I know the series is suppose to be very serious and urgent and all that, but I certainly wouldn't mind a few jokes to lighten things up. The constant slog of drama got really depressing really quickly.

Eh, I think I'll stick to Harry (:

[rebkos]

Subtle knife was my favorite.
I'm worried what they'll do for mulafa for the movie, I have a hard enough time making a firm mental image

[roz]

I have read all three of these books and I admit that they are very well written but I am afraid that I just don't get the appeal. I liked the Golden Compas well enough that I bought the other two but I really didn't like the final book. I think that it was because not only was it a really dark story but it felt to me like there is no hope in them.

Of the books that are being hyped at the moment I would much rather recommend Sabriel by Garth Nix.

[Mad Macca]

The Golden Compass? :??: :huh: :shrug: Where I live (in Australia), its called "Northern Lights", the first one that is.
I thought the books were Fantastic. I want a daemon!!!
They seem to be so cool!

[DarlingChild]

I LOVED these books. The Amber Spyglass was my favorite of the series. I wish I could go back and re-read them from the beginning, but I lent my book to...someone...and I never got it back! So, I only have the second and third books. I cried at the end. I absolutely loved the way it gave a different perspective about religion. Lyra was an amazing character, and so was Will.

Love them love them love them!!

[Moonlight]

Originally posted by Lavender*Quill (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=180527#post180527))
Yes I pointed this out in a couple of other potsts. It's quite unfair, they just target JK because of all the fame the her book is getting.

What ever happened to Liberty and fair treatment for all?:rolleyes:

I've read AS, and SK and I'm going to star Golden Compass tonight. They were good so far, and I had nothing much bad to see except I almost cried at the end.

[Henry Potter]

THEY ROCK, they changed the "northen lights" to the "golden compass" over here in little old NZ

[Virtuousdream]

I too wondered what the Golden Compass is, I live in the UK, and it's Northen Lights here.

I have to disagree, I loved the third one. I cried with Lee Scoresby returning with Hesper and when they had to say goodbye to each other.
I read the first one one day, bought the second one the next morning, had read it by the afternoon and was so desperate to know what happened, I walked into town and bought the 3rd book! I had finished by the evening!

The are currently writing the scripts for the film. They can't turn Lyra into a boy, they would have to turn Will into a Girl, AND IT'S WRONG!
I keep thinking who is going to act the parts though, I cannot imagine a suitable Lyra (girl!).

[Aranel]

The part with Lee Scoresby dying made me cry so much and I am not one for crying during books...

[WhiteSlash]

Did you know that these books are based on real Astronomy. The Dark Matter in the books are what most astronomers is in the universe. They are elementry particles floating around in space. Sound familar?

Does anyone know when they are making a movie for it or when they are holding casting? Thanks!

[Lord_Chatterley]

Ehm...I think the amber spyglass it's the best book of the trilogy!I love it most for the speech of Mary Malone about falling in love and the existence of God.
I found these banners searching the web,I think they are fan arts.But if they are not,they choosed wonderful actors!
JENNIFER CONNELLYhttp://www.hogwarts-network.com/album/albums/userpics/MissCoulter.jpg
ALAKINA MANNhttp://www.hogwarts-network.com/album/albums/userpics/normal_lyra.jpg
JEREMY NORTHAMhttp://www.hogwarts-network.com/album/albums/userpics/LordAsriel.jpg
PATRICIA ARQUETTEhttp://www.hogwarts-network.com/album/albums/userpics/parquette6.jpg

[WhiteSlash]

That's Miss Coulter alright. I thought Lyra should look more 'tom boyish' but that's me.

[Aranel]

Originally posted by WhiteSlash (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=327811#post327811))
Did you know that these books are based on real Astronomy. The Dark Matter in the books are what most astronomers is in the universe. They are elementry particles floating around in space. Sound familar?


Another interesting point, I am pretty sure that 'Lyra' is actually a constellation!! I could be wrong though, I don't know much about astronomy...

I agree that Jennifer Connelly would make a great Mrs Coulter, but I always imagined her to look something like Catherine Zeta-Jones, she just has a very stunning look to her that I think suits Mrs. Coulter...

[Lady Greyjoy]

Love :) Love :) Love :) these books

My favorites in order are 1) The Subtle Knife 2) The Amber Spyglass 3) The Golden Compass.

The characters are breathtakingly brilliant, and I have never read children as well written in fiction (sorry J.K. Rowling).

But the best part above all is the plot, it for one thing is totally original and at the same time very familiar (growing up).

This series only gets better the more you read it...so get back to the books :D

[dan_r]

I loved the books, My favourite book was probably the subtle knife altho Northern lights was very good too. I liked the amber spyglass, i just thought the ending was a bit weak (IMO that is) dunno what i was expecting, just more than that.

[Lady Greyjoy]

More than multiple universes being saved and humankind free after death???

What more can you want? :) :) :)

[WhiteSlash]

I was on the end of the 2nd book when I had to return it to the library. I feel hurt! Suspense hurts.

[Katze]

Originally posted by symplet (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=45908#post45908))
For those who haven't read them, would you?


They are sitting on my shelves waiting to be read. I do intend on reading them, but they aren't a priority. I picked them up because everyone spoke highly of them.

BTW - I think reading young adult books are fine. Just because they are intended for a certain audience doesn't means we can't enjoy them.

Frankly - I like having these types of books around after reading an thick science fictions book.

[Rowena Ravenclaw]

Originally posted by Lady Greyjoy (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=343438#post343438))
More than multiple universes being saved and humankind free after death???

What more can you want? :) :) :)

That's part of the problem, I think. You build the stakes up that high, there's just no way to deliver a fully satisfying payoff. It's not so much a question of saving everyone as how you save them.

[Mary Jane]

I've seen these books mentioned around the forums but until I read this thread I had no idea what they were. They sound awesome. I would agree that they haven't been targeted simply because the zealots attacking HP just don't know about them. Careful now, if you draw too much attention to them you'll be targeted as a witch/fiend/satan worshiper! :lol:

I think I'll have to add these to my list of summer reading.

[Tarawyn]

Time has changed my opinions of the books (again). To quote something I posted on another site: when I took a break from His Dark Materials about half a year ago, I started to think that Pullman had crossed the line with some of his comments, his "bashing," and the like. I was 11 or 12 when I read the books for the first time, and none of that occured to me until articles online pointed it out. Now that I've read the books again, I don't see how I drew that conclusion. There are amazing points made in the book, religion aside. The things being attacked are greed, hunger to know too much, and maybe, just maybe, organized religion.

I like the main plot. I like the side plots. I like the minor characters more than I like some of the major characters, but Mary Malone is my favorite by far. I think there's a lot of hope because there had to be - one door was always closing and another was always opening, and when things looked negative there was always something Pullman had said before that made negativity impossible. I don't know. The final plot wasn't extremely satisfying - like Rowena Ravenclaw said, when an issue is that big, satisfaction isn't entirely in it - but there's enough going on that it seems minor. I like Pullman's style, Pullman's emotion, Pullman's twists. I think it's a taste issue.

[Hula]

I love these books so much! I first read Northern Lights when I was 12 I think, and I was absolutely spellbound. I don't think that age is too young to read them.

The plot is so intricate, I love it! I don't think the ending of The Amber Spyglass is disappointing at all, I think it's very fitting. It's terribly sad, but also positive and happy too. I love Lyra's last speech about how we have to be kind, and brave, and curious etc. and then we'll build the Republic of Heaven.

To be honest, they are a bit religion-bashing, but as I'm not religious and agree with most of Philip Pullman's points, I like that aspect. However, to (roughly) quote Pullman, the things he's encouraging is curiosity, kindness, bravery etc. and the things he's condemning is ignorance and narrow-mindedness.

I also agree that I don't think that Will and Lyra had sex at the end of The Amber Spyglass. It wasn't about physical love, the point was just that they'd realised they were in love. I loved the ending! :) And so what if the angels were gay? Does it really matter? The point again with the angels was that they were in love, not that they both happened to be males.

And to be honest, HDM has come under a lot of criticism from religious people - trust me, I've read lots of articles. I think that maybe people on here, as they're more into Harry Potter, would just be more likely to notice anti-HP stuff.

[WhiteSlash]

The end to subtile knife is SO sad! Why, why, why! That witch is evil!!

I feel so bad for Will. To find his father and then watch him die...

[Lady Greyjoy]

Yes,

but it taught Will about love...if love can cause a witch to do that, then its something more powerful than he has experienced.

Personally i love the ending of The Amber Spyglass....and i don't think there is anyway it could have been done better ( i suggest a re-read for those who thought it was dissapointing..it grows on you after further reading, you piece the plot together)


"'and then what?' asked her daemon sleepily, 'build what?'...' The republic of heaven' best.ending.ever. :)

(and Pullman himself said weather will and lyra had sex was left up to the reader....i'm one of those who think they did.))

[misspadfoot]

I LOVED His Dark Materials! All three books were absolutely amazing.

I didn't mind the religious criticism at all. I dislike religion myself. But I don't think that the book was meant to be Satanic. Lyra and Will are in a war against Heaven, yes, but that doesn't mean they're fighting on the side of Hell. It's not like everything that's not Heaven, is Hell. Lyra and Will let people out of hell.

I think Pullman's ideas are summed up by this bumper sticker: "It's your hell, you live in it." Only God can control whether there is a hell. And he has decided to make one. Pullman, not surprisingly, doesn't like the idea, and he wrote these books accordingly.

[WhiteSlash]

Ok, I'm almost done with the 3rd book and I just started it. So far, I've felt like crying through out most of the book.

EDIT: I finished it. About 4 hours ago. I feel sad. Why can't there be two or something. Gosh, this book made me feel worse than when Cedric died. I didn't cry though. I've never cried at a book in my life, but I certainly felt like crying through out this book. :'(.

[Earendil]

Well, I finally finished the trilogy right before OotP came out. I have to say that if ever a series of books were to mess with one's mind, it would be His Dark Materials. The scale, the stakes, the concept, the theory, the risks--I can honestly say that after reading The Golden Compass, I was impressed. There are few books that can make such an impression on me, but TGC made me think. It made me wonder, what if the world was like this? What if there were alternate universes, and what if there was a physical embodiment of conciousness? In summary, what if there was a tangible reason why human beings are the way we are?

The trilogy makes you think. It makes you wonder. Unfortunately, with The Amber Spyglass--I was left wondering.

The first two built up so many questions: Who is the Authority? What are the rebel angels? How is Lyra destined to play the role of Eve? How will the subtle knife kill the Authority? And what the hell is Dust? I opened The Amber Spyglass practically twitching with excitement at the thought of having these questions answered and reading these loose-ends being tied up...and I was disappointed.

Pullman sets up this wonderfully spectacular battle that I wanted to exceed even my own expectations. I wanted to have these questions answered and these loose-ends tied, but it never happened. The ending of the trilogy as a whole made me feel cheated as a reader, only because the potential of the final conflict was so tremendous. Instead, there were a few chapters of the battle with the Clouded Mountain, in which I was utterly confused as to what was happening. Wasn't the subtle knife supposed to destroy the Authority? Who was the old man on the stretcher--God? Well, then what was Metatron for?

The problem here was not lack of sufficient buildup and background plot development. On the contrary, this was done so beautifully that the ending of The Amber Spyglass should have been stupendous, but it wasn't. The answer to the mystery of Dust was never revealed. (I wasn't satisfied with the whole deal with the Dust fertilizing the wheel plants...) Nor was I completely satisfied with the resolution of the battle. Seriously, the ending confused me beyond reason and left more questions than answers, with almost zero closure.

This trilogy introduced such a brilliant and controversial concept that it truly is a pity that I and many other readers could not be satisfied with the conclusion. It could have gone somewhere wonderful; yet Pullman chose to focus on the rather sudden romance between Will and Lyra. Don't get me wrong--I felt that he initially handled their relationship beautifully. And I loved Will's character, much more than Lyra's--but I felt that he too was cheated with the ending. The lack of closure was so disappointing, even more so because of the extraordinary development of the plot and the characters up until the final conclusion. I'm almost tempted to write my own ending to the trilogy to give myself a sense of closure, so the fascinating questions brought up in this trilogy will not continue to go unanswered in my mind. :rolleyes:

Just writing this review makes me all frustrated again. I honestly feel like I missed something in The Amber Spyglass. I'm just glad to see that I'm not the only one who felt that the ending was unfulfilling.

About the movie: I'd be interested to see how they handle the controversial concepts in these books. The Christian fundamentalists are having kittens over Harry Potter, for goodness sake: I'm wondering why they're not in a more public frenzy over a series in which one of the protagonists' ultimate goal is to kill God? More likely than not, the studio making HDM will severely sugarcoat the concepts in the novel, which will most probably make the movies into absolute bosh. Plus, with the limit of exceedingly talented child actors, I wouldn't be surprised if the movies turned into a HP-esque fiasco of mutilating quality Young Adult literature into a media-powered mess of sickeningly sweet wide-eyed-wonder.

[WhiteSlash]

I totally agree. I think he is writting two more book explaining dust and Lyra oxford.

[Aranel]

Yeppy, there are two more books due for release in the near future! As WhiteSlash mentioned, they are called 'Lyra's Oxford' and 'The Book of Dust'.

Here is some info that I found at www.bridgetothestars.net

Lyra's Oxford:
- Lyra, 2 years after TAS.
- 64 pages long.
- Will include extras, such as pull out maps of Lyra's Oxford, black and white illustrations, and a 'bundle' of materials from Lyra's universe (including a postcard).
- Story will be called 'Lyra and the Birds'
- Premise: Lyra and Pan are sitting on the roofs of Oxford when they see a witch's daemon being pursued by a flock of birds.
- Will help to 'bridge the gap' between the trilogy and The Book of Dust.
- Will be released Oct. 28, 2003
- Will sell for £9.99

And for 'The Book of Dust'
Philip Pullman is working on a sort of companion novel to His Dark Materials, entitled "The Book of Dust." The Book of Dust" will contain short stories about many of the secondary characters such as Lee Scoresby and Serafina Pekkala. There may also be information about Dust, the Alethiometer, the Subtle Knife, and dæmons. Basically, all the things we wondered about, but weren't important enough to put into the books themselves. There is no date listed (not that I could find, anyway) about when "The Book of Dust" will be released, but we can all hope that it is soon.

Here's a few things that Pullman has said will probably be in TBOD:
-How Lee and Iorek met
-How Farder Coram and Serafina Pekkala fell in love
-Possibly the story of how Coulter and Asriel met

This is pretty exciting!! I can't wait! Yet another fantastic book release for this year!

[Veritaserum]

Hi,

In my final year at school, I had to do a 3000 word thesis on pretty much anything we wanted. I did mine on Phillip Pullman's His Dark Materials and I wrote about whether they were an attack on christianity or a conformation of human worth, if you'd like to see it, I would be quite happy to show you, just PM me. Even my dad liked it as it helps to explain some of the really confusing things such as dust and such sort!

Oh and I LOVED the novels, I have to say they are some of my favourites!

Veritaserum

[danwilkie]

I loved the Philip Pullman trilogy! Second only to HP. Not many authors have the ability to make you so sad. I suffered from severe depression at the end of book 2 and at the end of book 3. I could still be found about a week later just sitting in my room thinking about it, with a glum look on my face.

I wonder if anyone goes to the real Oxford Botanical gardens at a specific time and date?

I tried to keep this spoiler-free.

[Earendil]

"Lyra's Oxford" and "The Book of Dust" certainly do sound exciting. I would hope that they clear up some of the confounding issues I had with HDM. There were so many loose ends for me after TAS, as I mentioned in my review, that I need some kind of closure on this trilogy or I'll go bonkers.

[Padfoot127]

I'm only on like the third chapter of the first one... :D

[Aranel]

I urge you on Padfoot127! They are sooo excellent! Keep going keep going!

[danwilkie]

Yeah keep reading! I've already convinced 3 of my friends to read them...

[Virtuousdream]

Wow at the information, that's made me a happy little bee, I loved this trilogy and cried when it ended.

[Lord_Chatterley]

Yeah,it's an awesome trilogy!I hpe the movies won't ruin the deep message of the books to not scandalize the church.

[Daveydee]

They are indeed beatifully written and tremendously imaginative books.

I wonder if anybody agrees with me that on celluloid they would be better served by animated features rather than live action.

Remembering such disasters as the movie 'Babe', the image of live animals talking (whether that be real animals with dubbed oral movements, or CGI created) really does not work well in live action IMO.

[mercury1122]

I agreee, Daveydee. As I was reading the series and wondering if they would make a movie of it, I kept thinking that an animated series would be much better. Something more along the lines of Spirited Away than Pixar. I feel that way for the HP movie series as well.

I'm so glad to have found this thread. The search for a good HDM formum left me much in awe of the organization of CoS. And, on that note, if anyone knows of a forum as detailed and organized as CoS for HDM, please share.

On age:
It's neat to read the posts/perspectives from so many different age groups. HDM is the ultimate coming of age story, and there are so many different levels to appreciate in HDM depending on your age or at least your experiences. Some of ya'll expressed frustration, ambivalence, or disappointment, and I wonder how those perspectives would change with time. I experienced more nostalgia than direct empathy and entirely admire Pullman for his interpretation of the experience. Indeed, as I was reading, I thought that I would never really recommend this book for a young (13 and under) audience. There's just so much more to appreciate if you have the life experiences to relate to.

On god:
Inkwolf said it well. It seems that Pullman was using the institution of religion as a vehicle for exploring the implications of limiting consciousness. Also, it's important to note that he was using a very old construct of the church - the church of inquisition, the church of death for heresy. I would venture to say that Pullman may be aware of the fact the church has changed somewhat in the past 800 years. Definitely, there is a lot of room for interpretation, but hopefully people consider more than one interpretation.

Balthamos and Baruch:
Whatever Pullman intended with their sameness of gender, the relationship he created between these two beings was phenomenally pure and balanced and profound. Their devotion and their unity of consciousness was just as intense as Lyra and Pan, and I love the notion that in loving your true partner you are loving yourself.

The ending:
I read the whole series back to back, and so I didn't have the gap between publication to let my expectations go anywhere. I read it as one big novel. I think that I would have been quite unsatisfied with AS if I had given myself time to build questions and anticipated and predict what was coming. But, as it were, I thought the ending was entirely appropriate and interesting (however much it made me cry).
Iorek:
Favorite character, hands down. Armored bears RULE! Talk about crying....when he was licking Lyra's hands before their second departure...I LOVE YOU IOREK!

[Buckbeak]

Well i read the books about two years ago and i thought they were extremely emotional and well-thought up. i can say that when i first read the Northen Lights, it took all of my stimulation to carry on, i didn't quite understand the end of the first one, what with Lyra's little friend dying and all. but i found the second book great, it was so much more exciting, but again the ending happened so suddenly i was like 'what!'. The Amber Spyglass, despite what many of you think here, was by far the best, it took me a whole week to read the shorter Northen Lights, but only a day to read the Amber Spyglass. i loved how the characters all came together to fight against one belief, it was truelly amazing. and i have to say the best part was the young love between Lyra and Will, the way that was written was so beautiful. it didn't occur to me then that they had sex (considering they were only 12) and i still don't think they did now. i absolutly love these books that im glad they got voted as one of the top 100 best reads in britain.
As for the ending of the Amber Spyglass, although it was sad (keeping Lyra and Will apart was just cruel) it was a perfect ending to a trilogy of amazing books. thank you very much.

As for the movie, well while i was reading it i sort of got mental images of the Narnia films (did anyone ever see them?) the sort of quiet fantasy without so much special effect but magical all the same, so i hope they go for that type of approach rather than LOTR and HP style.

[rons-lover]

I'm reading them right now, I'm the on The Subtle Knife. I'm almost finished with it.

But yeah, I totally noticed that whole church thing.... Of course these books are'nt nearly as popular as HP.

And I dunno I think 11-16yrs age range is a little narrow. They're quite a bit darker then HP and more mature. And have alot of adult ideas. Yet considered children's books(Much like HP). But I think at heart these are adult books from a childs veiw point(And not even always from a childs view point).

These books are easy enough for a teenager to understand, there alot of things that would even consider an 11yr. I think adults could really enjoy these. A wide-age range much like HP should enjoy these books.

And okay, I am a Christain not catholic, but I really love God and everything... But I agree since he was representing a much older church in the books, he seemed to more-or-less be using religion to point out how we narrow our ways of thinking.But I still love these books.! I'm almost done with The Subtle knife.! I can't wait to finish the series!!! I just don't want to put these books down, I'd say they definitely as good as HP, but nothing like them. Except that it involves children doing extrordinary things. But then so do 1,000,000 other books. :p hehe

So if they like fantasy or just a good read, I'd check them out. They just get better and better as you get further in. And they are full of mystery and suprizes. Its really hard to tell what's going to happen.

And there's no point comparing these to HP or HP to these... WHY? Because I think in most cases comparisons are really stupid. Esp. in cases where the things are hardly alike(Like in this case).

BTW just so you know both these books and HP were written and came out around the same time.! :D hehe

Oh, and I *HOPE* they make movies of the books.! I'd go see them definitely.! And with all these recent fantasy movies... Maybe they will? What about Chronicles of Narnia being remade? They never even finished making all the movies. I think they were like a British mini-series? I remember watching them on tape a long time ago though.! :D

Actually though I'd rather see real people and not animation. I have a picture of what it all looks like and in my head it would looks so much better real then animated. Unless we get animation so advanced it looks completely real(Which eventually will probably happen as the rate its going.!).

*Enjoy*!

[quidditch seeker]

I thought the first book was called 'Northern Lights'.
That's the name of the book I have?

[Aranel]

Yeppy, it's much like the Philosophers and Sorcerers stone thingy. The British version is Northern Lights, the American version: The Golden Compass. :D :D

[Iorek]

I've been really surprised by reading some of the messages that have been put up. My absolute favourite of the series was The Amber Spyglass and I thought it was fantastic. It was a bookd about Will and Lyra and it followed them through to a most powerful and climactic conclusion, answering all the questions that needed to be answered.
People have mentioned feeling cheated because we didn't learn how the battle ended and various other things, but you don't need to know. If everything had been wrapped up in a nice little package and tied off it would have felt too finished.
The whole point of that ending was "we have to build the republic of heaven where we are". Almost the moral of the story, if everything had been tied up you wouldn't have had the idea that there was so much left to do, which indeed there is.
The Amber Spyglass was my favourite of the trilogy and has brought me as close to crying as any book ever has.

[HannahStarr]

I really liked His Dark Materials, but unfortunately I had a problem with Lyra, especially when she kept calling Iorek "dear" all the time. That just didn't seem right for a 12-year-old. And I HATED Will. Couldn't stand him. (Yeah, I hated the two main characters... :rolleyes: )

[girl_wizardry]

I'm now reading Book 1 The Golden Compass...the first few chapters was quite confusing for me cos I don't really know what they were saying. Daemon...the Dust..the city in the sky...ah well, guess I have to read more. Sounds like a great book!

[Chrysalis]

I've read those books and I love love love them! They're absolutely fantastic. I didn't know that the angels form 'The Amber Spyglass' were gay though: I thought they just loved each other? Also, Lyra and Will didn't have sex.
One thing I don't get: the British version is called 'Northern Lights', why on earth did they change the title to 'The Golden Compass'? It makes no sense. Also, the American versions have really crappy covers. Just needed to get that out of my system.

[owl post 1992]

*walks in*

I read the first one and hated it and read book 2 cos I thought it would get better it did but the ending was a bit too drawn out and rubbish the third one I haven't read but I have listened to it and found it totally crappy.

*runs out before the food throwing starts*

[HannahStarr]

Also, the American versions have really crappy covers. Just needed to get that out of my system.

Actually, there are different covers for the three books (at least, I've seen different ones for The Golden Compass and the Subtle Knife - don't know about The Amber Spyglass though). My favorite cover for the GC is one with Lyra riding on Iorek with Pan in his mouse form. It's quite cute :D I don't like the ones for the other two though.

I didn't know that the angels form 'The Amber Spyglass' were gay though: I thought they just loved each other? Also, Lyra and Will didn't have sex.

Well, I wouldn't exactly call the two angels gay, but they were in love with each other. And, who said anything about Lyra and Will having sex?

[Aranel]

Just bringing this thread back from the dead.

I was wondering, has any one purchased a copy of Lyra's Oxford yet?

I got mine before christmas, I started and finished it this afternoon, it only took about 45 minutes. It's incredibly short though, but of a disapointment. Nice enough story, i enjoyed it.

One thing though. The book is very pretty. I mean it too, the cover is nice, the paper is pretty good quality and the maps, pictures, photograms, catelogues included are not too bad on the eyes.

Just wondering what others thought?!

[Catgirl]

How did this thread escape my notice. I love His dark Materials. Northan Lights is my all time second favorite book (Prisoner of Azkaban no.1). This is the most amazing trilogy ever. My favorite character is Serafina. She is so cool. I'd love to be her. Serafina Pekkala is one of my screen names. In fact I almost used it here. I don't know if they have name changes on this site, but if they do, I'll probably change mine when we have one.

[Lord_Chatterley]

Didi you see the pics took by the stage play?
they are on bridgetothestars.net

[Kwaffle]

I really, really enjoyed HDM. In fact, Philip Pullman is probably my favorite author. I started reading them when I was 10, I think... (I was a fairly precocious 10-year-old but I'm sure 2/3 of the trilogy went right over my head.) There are so many original aspects to the books: mulefa, Dust, dæmons, the knife, the alethiometer, the intention craft...

By the way, anybody remember Sir Charles Latrom (the man Lyra meets in the museum and who later steals the alethiometer)? His last name is "mortal" spelled backwards.


One thing I don't get: the British version is called 'Northern Lights', why on earth did they change the title to 'The Golden Compass'? It makes no sense.


According to www.darkmaterials.com:


The title change for the first book of His Dark Materials has been the source of endless confusion for fans on both sides of the Atlantic, and the rationale behind the change isn't entirely clear. When the book was first published in the United Kingdom, it was called Northern Lights. However, when it was published in North America, it was renamed The Golden Compass.

Apparently, Pullman's original name for the series was The Golden Compass Says..., and that was the name under which he sent it off to American publishers. He heard nothing from them for months, and in the interim, decided (with his British publisher's full blessing) to rename the series His Dark Materials. Months later, RandomHouse sent a letter to inform him that they would be thrilled to publish The Golden Compass and, when Pullman explained that the name had changed, insisted that the cover artwork was already slated to publicly appear the following month, and it was too late to change the title.

Regardless of the name, the two books are essentially the same beast (minus the art by Philip Pullman that headed up the chapters in the UK version). Since The Golden Compass fits with the naming pattern that the rest of the series maintains, this site will generally refer to the book under that title.

[GryffindorSeeker]

Those books were wonderful. I can see why someone wouldn't like them, but I have no problems with the series.

[Catgirl]

I can't believe that the publishers didn't snap the book up straight away.

At least they have a good reason for changeing the book title unlike HP.

[errols-a-cutie]

*bumps*

I've just started reading the trilogy and will undoubtedly want to add to this discussion in a couple weeks. Hence me not wanted this fantastic thread to fall into oblivion. It's been a fantastic read and has convinced me to give the book ago, despite my previous dislike of Philip Pullman. Maybe I mis-judged.

[WeasleyIsOurKing]

I'm about halfway through The Amber Spyglass. I know how it ends (I have a bad habit of flipping to the back of the book) and I have to say it's very sad... Harry Potter had better not end like that!!

I have a question, though: How do you pronounce Lyra's name? I say it like "Leer-a." Is the "y" supposed to be pronounced like a long "i" sound?

[phoenixsong]

WeasleyIsOurKing: I pronounce Lyra as Lie-ra, with a long i sound, like the instrument the lyre. It also makes sense given the scene when the harpies are screaming her name and it echoes back to her as "Liar".

The books are just brilliant, and I would suspect that HP fans would really like them, since they, too, valourize human emotion.

But the best word for describing their religious perspective would be "heretical"! Fortunately, most of the heresies that it entertains were successfully quashed by the Church several centuries ago. And I don't think most Christians today care enough to revive them. They are much more concerned with everyday practical matters (like contraception and female ordination) than with issues of dogma regarding human nature and the Fall.

Finally, regarding "gay angels" (!): to me, the whole relationship between these two angels seems directly taken from Plato's Phaedrus, in its discussion of the process by which one soul (in the Phaedrus, that of a young man), in falling in love with a worthy object of love (usually an older philosophical mentor, someone like Socrates), sprouts wings and soars to spiritual heights beyond those achievable by regular human beings.

[Evilrabbit]

I read HDM and loved it! I wasn't offended by the religious bashing, and I agree with PP when he says that he's just advocating good things like compassion and tolerance and dismissing narrow-mindedness, but then again I'm not religious and I can see how others would disagree. The people who say HP is evil have absolutely no case, but a case can be made, not that I agree with it, that HDM is disrespectful to others' faith.

About halfway through TAS, I got to thinking, this series must have some killer Will/Lyra shipping fanfics! Then I got to the part where they fall in love and realized they'd already taken care of that for us! :p

I'm just wondering about a few things (sorry if these have already been mentioned) First of all, how did the gyptian boat get Will and Lyra from the mulefa city to Citagazze if they're in different worlds? And what exactly was the matter with Will's mom? I think it has something to do with Specters but they never really say. And if daemons want to go back to the world they come from, why did Pan and Kirjava go to Asriel's army world if neither of them is from that world?

I love the whole many-worlds idea, so cool to think other stuff is in the exact same place as us and we can see it! And the daemon idea too is sooo cool! I want one! I've only read the series once but I'll have to again sometime.

[Aschenputtel]

Hi,

my first posting. And it´s not about Harry Potter .

Honestly, I think the trilogy "His Dark Materials" is quite boring, here and there senseless violent.
And the plot is no plot. Too much hype for what? Well, I would say a lukewarm message.

From my point of view "His Dark Materials" isn´t a typical fantasy book and that´s indeed ok. It seems to me there is much more of a political ambition beyond "The Republic Of Heaven". Britons told me that Pullman is a British Republican. So I would say he critised the British Kiingdom much more than the "Church" (what ever his understanding of it could be).

Greetings from Austria

[Tim the Wiz]

Hey Aschenputtel,

Welcome to the CoS Forums!

Well I read these books when I was ten or eleven and I really enjoyed them. I'm re-reading the series again as a matter of fact, I'm half-way through the third book.

I have to say that the basic plot is excellent and everything but as one of his quotes inside his books says (from Byron?) "I don't like fiction unless it is based upon fact" and while I am Christian, there is no Church in the world which would murder a girl who carries Original Sin, as this does not exist in real life (whether you choose not to believe it or not but Pullman uses the Bible and the story of God essentially in his story) because of Jesus Christ, in the eyes of the Church.

As he gave up his life for our sins and our future sins so all we had to do was ask for forgivness.

The harshness of the Church is pretty steep but otherwise the books are OK. Mr Pullman himself is a ex-Christian and I wonder if he had borne the thought that God had double-crossed us if in fact he existed because of the suffering in the world, the bad people, etc., etc. ...

That and the fact that Pullman heavily criticises the Christian influences in the Narnia books and even Lord of the Rings ... But I might not like the plot as much but the main story is very good and exceptionately written and I think he is one of the great fantasy writers since Tolkien and Lewis.

While some might find it boring, I find it a good, long story for those in need of a long quest (*coughlordoftherings*) type book mixed with fantasy, large amounts of action and a dash of wit.

[ChoChanger]

i love that set of books! i read them a while ago now and at first found them really hard to get into but when i did, they were so incredibly well written and moving, a cried a fair few times :D definately a great set of books - i'd recommend them to anybody!

[MSLupin]

I read His Dark Materials last summer. Being entertained by The Golden Compass (although Lyra irked me mildly), and enjoying The Subtle Knife immensely (largely due to Will's facinating character) I continued to read the travestial The Amber Spyglass.
I am not Christian, and I was offended. It felt to me as though Mr. Pullman had garnered his masses of readers, and then vented his acerbic spleen into this ridiculous volume. And don't misunderstand me- the bits focusing on Lyra and Will were completely up to the standard of the two preceeding books, and I wept steadily through the world of the dead. However, the vicious, unrelenting tirades against organized religion wore me right through. What I gathered, essentially, was this; G-d is nonsense, religious people are a waste of space, but pagans are acceptable, being as they go against the grain of most systems of belief. To say that I was relieved to have completed the series is a vast understatement.
One more nitpick- twelve year old's are not adults. I don't care how mature or experienced they are. The way Pullman would have it, I (at 16) would have the general worldly know-how of a 35 year old at least. (That is to say, unless I was Christian...)

[Tim the Wiz]

I read His Dark Materials last summer. Being entertained by The Golden Compass (although Lyra irked me mildly), and enjoying The Subtle Knife immensely (largely due to Will's facinating character) I continued to read the travestial The Amber Spyglass.
I am not Christian, and I was offended. It felt to me as though Mr. Pullman had garnered his masses of readers, and then vented his acerbic spleen into this ridiculous volume. And don't misunderstand me- the bits focusing on Lyra and Will were completely up to the standard of the two preceeding books, and I wept steadily through the world of the dead. However, the vicious, unrelenting tirades against organized religion wore me right through. What I gathered, essentially, was this; G-d is nonsense, religious people are a waste of space, but pagans are acceptable, being as they go against the grain of most systems of belief. To say that I was relieved to have completed the series is a vast understatement.
One more nitpick- twelve year old's are not adults. I don't care how mature or experienced they are. The way Pullman would have it, I (at 16) would have the general worldly know-how of a 35 year old at least. (That is to say, unless I was Christian...)

I whole heartedly agree with you MSLupin ...

[WeasleyIsOurKing]

I finished the series for a second time yesterday. I thouroughly enjoyed the read, but I do agree with some of you here. Pullman really has some, er, issues to work out with the Church. He's awfully bitter, don't you think?

And I have a quick question: Did we ever find out the name of Mrs. Coulter's daemon?

And if daemons want to go back to the world they come from, why did Pan and Kirjava go to Asriel's army world if neither of them is from that world?

I think maybe because that's where Lyra and Will needed to go... ah, wait. Now I'm confused.

[Tim the Wiz]

And if daemons want to go back to the world they come from, why did Pan and Kirjava go to Asriel's army world if neither of them is from that world?

Thats a question I asked myself ...

[Tortuga]

Oh, these books are so cool. I loved the first and the second one. The third one was also good but I thought that the "Mulefa" chapters were extremly boring and the ending was dissapointing like everyone else said.

It really is a thought provoking literary masterpiece. It made me think that, Will can open windows to go to other worlds. Millions and more worlds we can think of.

Wouldn't it bee cool if Will and Lyra met Harry and they unexpectedly opened a window to Harry's world? :D :)

That would be so cool. :)
Someone should write a fan fic about that.

[Tim the Wiz]

Good idea, but I'm sure you could find other fanfics about HDM at FanFic.Net (http://www.fanfiction.net) and possibly other sites ... You could even write one yourself ...

[Pockiness]

I love the books. I read them when I was 20.
I'd be shocked though if most 11-16 year olds liked them.

oo!! I do! I do!! the books rock! I love the last one, the amber spyglasss, its so...gothy and dark..and its cool! :clap:

[voldies_counsellor]

I love the books and I was not offended by them in the slightest. I was utterly captivated and read the series within a week. I think Pullman is the best writer of teenage fiction of his generation.
I felt the message he portayed was more that desire does NOT remove our innocence, something many churches need to realise. Even modern Christianity often preaches that sexuality should be reserved for marriage, that we should all follow the pack like good little sheep, checking our Bibles as we go. Pullman tried to introduce the idea that our "daemons" are good for us. That it it only right and normal to feel desire or fear. That without our individuality and ability to make choices we would all be the same...just like the nurses in the books without their daemons. The concepts of science, religion, sects and prejudices were excellently woven into one of the most powerful stories I've ever read.

I am worried about them making a film though...I can't imagine how it will work.

[HannahStarr]

One more nitpick- twelve year old's are not adults. I don't care how mature or experienced they are. The way Pullman would have it, I (at 16) would have the general worldly know-how of a 35 year old at least. (That is to say, unless I was Christian...)

I had that problem, too, when I read the series. It didn't seem very realistic because Lyra and Will both acted much older than they actually were. The series would have been much better if they were at least 15-years-old.

The ending wasn't disappointing for me, but everything up to the ending was. I've read The Amber Spyglass twice, and both times I had to force myself through the novel, especially the parts with Mary Malone and the mulefa. And it was pretty cute when Will and Lyra fell in love, awww! :D

[TallAsLint]

I love the books and I was not offended by them in the slightest. I was utterly captivated and read the series within a week. I think Pullman is the best writer of teenage fiction of his generation.
I felt the message he portayed was more that desire does NOT remove our innocence, something many churches need to realise. Even modern Christianity often preaches that sexuality should be reserved for marriage, that we should all follow the pack like good little sheep, checking our Bibles as we go. Pullman tried to introduce the idea that our "daemons" are good for us. That it it only right and normal to feel desire or fear. That without our individuality and ability to make choices we would all be the same...just like the nurses in the books without their daemons. The concepts of science, religion, sects and prejudices were excellently woven into one of the most powerful stories I've ever read.

I am worried about them making a film though...I can't imagine how it will work.

I read the first book, and I started the second book, but then stopped. By the end of the first book i couldnt tell if Pullman was anti-christian, because I read it when I was about 12. So I decided to go on Amazon and read some reviews and found out that the third book was extremely anti-christian, so I stopped reading it. I know I shouldnt judge the books just by a couple of amazon reviews, but being christian, I just didnt think that was something I should read.

Although, Voldies_councellor, I found some of your remarks rude or not true. The bible doesnt preach "follow the pack like good little sheep" It says in order to have eternal life you must believe in Jesus and has rules on how to live righteously. And yes it says that sexuality should be saved for marriage, but I think that's much better than having pre-marital sexual relationship(s). There are statistics (that i cant recall right off the top of my head) that sexually promiscuous people are more likely to get cancer in reproductive organs, and that those who lived together before marriage were more likely to divorce.

About the following the pack thing, There are so many examples from the bible about people who didnt follow the pack. Jesus for example, he preached new concepts to the people of isreal, even though the Pharacees and other Jewish Leaders disliked it. Esther spoke up when the king's assistant Haman was going to kill her people (the jews) because of a personal grudge, even though she knew it could get her killed. If you read the book Jesus Freaks, It's all about people going against their culture, standing up for what they believed in, even though it was illegal or looked down upon by the government or the people.

Also, the bible never says there is anything wrong with emotion, Personally, I'm afraid of practically everything known to man. It's just when those emotions cause us to sin, then it's wrong. Christianity isnt about "Your a christian so you are now a mind slave, and you can never do anything fun ever again".

Back to HDM, I might read the rest of the series, so I wont be called a hypocrite, for not even reading the books (as many of the Anti-HP people appear to do). Also, I dont want to start a religious debate, I just wanted to point out to Voldies_councellor that christians are not emotionless drones who have no free will.

[voldies_counsellor]

I read the first book, and I started the second book, but then stopped. By the end of the first book i couldnt tell if Pullman was anti-christian, because I read it when I was about 12. So I decided to go on Amazon and read some reviews and found out that the third book was extremely anti-christian, so I stopped reading it. I know I shouldnt judge the books just by a couple of amazon reviews, but being christian, I just didnt think that was something I should read.

Although, Voldies_councellor, I found some of your remarks rude or not true. The bible doesnt preach "follow the pack like good little sheep" It says in order to have eternal life you must believe in Jesus and has rules on how to live righteously. And yes it says that sexuality should be saved for marriage, but I think that's much better than having pre-marital sexual relationship(s). There are statistics (that i cant recall right off the top of my head) that sexually promiscuous people are more likely to get cancer in reproductive organs, and that those who lived together before marriage were more likely to divorce.

About the following the pack thing, There are so many examples from the bible about people who didnt follow the pack. Jesus for example, he preached new concepts to the people of isreal, even though the Pharacees and other Jewish Leaders disliked it. Esther spoke up when the king's assistant Haman was going to kill her people (the jews) because of a personal grudge, even though she knew it could get her killed. If you read the book Jesus Freaks, It's all about people going against their culture, standing up for what they believed in, even though it was illegal or looked down upon by the government or the people.

Also, the bible never says there is anything wrong with emotion, Personally, I'm afraid of practically everything known to man. It's just when those emotions cause us to sin, then it's wrong. Christianity isnt about "Your a christian so you are now a mind slave, and you can never do anything fun ever again".

Back to HDM, I might read the rest of the series, so I wont be called a hypocrite, for not even reading the books (as many of the Anti-HP people appear to do). Also, I dont want to start a religious debate, I just wanted to point out to Voldies_councellor that christians are not emotionless drones who have no free will.


But my point was that the Church attempts to control people...Christians believe this is a good thing, and I don't have a problem with Christiantiy. I am not a Christian but I believe everyone should make their own mind up. But I personally do not want to live my life by the same standards as Christians are expected to. I do not want to live my life obeying Jesus or God, I'd rather go my own way. I did not mean that Christians are emotionless drones...BUT that Pullman was attempting to open discussion about SOME churches. There are SOME religious communities who main or kill their people for not following the guidelines for their religion...so my point wasn't that people ARE sheep, but that in some religious communities they are forced to be..forced to follow the will of others.

On the sexuality issue...not sure if this should be discussed too deeply on a HP forum, but people who have pre-marital sex are not necessarily promiscuous and I find that quite offensive!! This is the attitude I am uncomfortable with within the Christian community. That people who do not live their lives the "right way"...ie people who happen to have sexual relationships before they marry, or who happen to be gay, are outcast and seen as sinners. I spent my childhood at a Catholic School having those opinons forced upon me and quite frankly I find them narrow-minded.
The books actually encourage compassion and friendship (qualities which are not exclusive to religious communities and are sometimes found more prolifically outside of such groups). They encourage acceptance, which includes acceptance of the beliefs of others. Therefore I don't feel the books "attack" organised religion, so much as encourage people to respect the rights of others to make their own minds up :tu:

[Tim the Wiz]

But I personally do not want to live my life by the same standards as Christians are expected to. I do not want to live my life obeying Jesus or God

If in fact you actually believe that God created everything and still made that comment, that was a very narrow minded conclusion. To me thats like saying you shouldn't obey your mother and father.

I really don't want to start a religious argument, but I will continue if you comment again on this voldies_counsellor. But of course I hope you don't otherwise things will start to get ugly and this is an all ages forum.

So lets stay on topic please.

[voldies_counsellor]

If in fact you actually believe that God created everything and still made that comment, that was a very narrow minded conclusion. To me thats like saying you shouldn't obey your mother and father.

I really don't want to start a religious argument, but I will continue if you comment again on this voldies_counsellor. But of course I hope you don't otherwise things will start to get ugly and this is an all ages forum.

So lets stay on topic please.

Where did I say that I believed God created everything? I would have thought it was apparent that i DON'T believe in God from my comments. However, as I stated, I have no problem with other people's beliefs...I hope you feel the same too. We are all entitled to make our own minds up.

[HannahStarr]

Hey guys, if you want to argue about God and your religious beliefs, check out the Spirit Division (http://www.cosforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=53), but let's not go into that in this thread, okay? :)

[Tim the Wiz]

Where did I say that I believed God created everything?
Ahem.

If in fact you actually believe that God created everything and still made that comment ...


I have no problem with other people's beliefs...I hope you feel the same too.

As a matter of fact, I do to. Now isn't that cool?


Now that thats over with, back on topic we go ...

[voldies_counsellor]

Ahem.






As a matter of fact, I do to. Now isn't that cool?


Now that thats over with, back on topic we go ...

:rotfl: Oh dear...

Anyway...is there anyone else who can't see how it will translate to the screen? I don't know if there has actually been any confirmation they are making a film? But I just can't imagine it working for some reason.

[HannahStarr]

I read somewhere they were making a film, and on the Internet Movie Database it's listing as coming out in 2005. Tom Stoppard is doing the screenplay. I don't think they've done any casting yet. In all honesty, I think it will be very hard to turn this trilogy into a series of movies. There are some parts that would be very difficult to film.

[Tim the Wiz]

Yeah, I'm not sure either if it will work well on screen ...

[RoadSafetyGirl]

I really did enjoy the books. I mean, I'm 22 years old and blown away by the books coming out classed as young fiction, not because I find them shocking or wrong but because they are all so well written that they blur the lines between young and adult fiction. The Dark Materials is such a good example of that (can I think of another? Mmmmm. Where am I?) and I really enjoyed it but strange that I didn't find it in the slightest a religious work, it was never judegemental nor did it hit you in the head with religious metaphor.
While I can see it is incredibly hard to translate into film, I can see that if they pull it off it could be really spectacular. I think the difficulties isnt in the special fx like the demons and talking animals but in the casting. Particulary because it is at its heart a coming of age story so whoever is cast as Lyra and Will would have to be able to translate that growing up onto screen, from complete innocence to falling in love. I can't even begin to imagine who could fulfill those roles.

[Tim the Wiz]

Yeah, I whole heartedly agree its one of the finest pieces of fiction ever made under "Young Fiction", I sometime's feel it should not belong there.

[Codemastar]

I really, really like the 'His Dark Materials' trilogy. For me, it's up there with Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter on my list. It was probably the best trilogy I've ever read. I enjoyed reading The Golden Compass/Northern Lights, which got me to read 'The Subtle Knife' which I really enjoyed and got me hooked on the series and gave me a large anticipation for reading 'The Amber Spyglass'. The Amber Spyglass was my favorite book in the entire series, and it was the book that caused me to consider one of my favorite books. This book has the Science vs. Religion fight, which I enjoyed, and I really liked how Pullman portrayed different universes.

Spoiler: For those of you who do not know; dust/elementary particles, were, according to the books, created by thought of conciousness, which started at the exact same time for every universe, whether it be Eve eating the apple, the animal thing putting the wheel on it's foot, etc. and the holes in the universes were causing dust/thoughts to seep through.

When I read the book I was 12 and I understood the concepts pretty well. I don't think it's an age thing, just how you percieve the books and how knowledgeable you are about the subject. I really enjoyed the books. Although The Amber Spyglass was sad, I really like how Pullman ends the series, leaving us with questions, not desperate must-be-answered questions like Harry Potter and Goblet of Fire/Order of the Phoenix, but questions about how things happened. Not all books have to have a happy ending. This one is different, letting us know that it won't be an immediate happy ending, but when they met each other in the world that's connected to the dead world, then things would be a happy ending. Very different, unique, and original, and I liked it... A LOT.

[Da_Chinkster]

I really liked the trilogy as well. The only problem was that the trilogy came out at the same time as Harry Potter which was getting quite a bit of hype and so many people would not have hear dof HDM which is a real shame

[Sweetie]

I read the first and second ones when I was 11 or 12, and liked them a lot. I just read the third one this year, and I loved that one too. They're just so different than the other books out there.

[carrot top]

i have read the 1 and part of the 2 one (i got side-tracked; i read 2-4 books at once) so far so good, is all i have to say. here are more: Immortals series by Tamora Pierce are pretty good, and Brian Jaqucues. Inkheart and East, too are good

[dcbaxter]

I have just finished reading His Dark Materials trilogy and find myself wanting more much more, not dissimilar to that yearning for Book 6 to hit the shelves in the HP septet. I would say that HDM would appeal to older teenagers in general as of course to oldies like myself but there of course are/will be younger readers who will enjoy them immensly. As far as 'lose yourself in its depths' fantasy goes HP are amazing reads, HDM is totally stunning too, to the point of being, in my humble opinion, up there with the very very best. Dark yes, controversial yes but no more than any great story should be. HP and the Bible included.
That comment should cause a ripple ;-)

[bludger_beater]

A friend recommended His Dark Materials to me, and I completely fell into it, it was so thought-provoking, the idea of thousands of different worlds out there was just horribly appealing. The Subtle Knife was by far my favorite, though the cliff-hanger ending was just horrible! It drove me crazy until I could get to the Amber Spyglass. HDM is definitely one of the best series of books I have ever read.

[SSdraken]

Honestly, I think the trilogy "His Dark Materials" is quite boring, here and there senseless violent.
And the plot is no plot. Too much hype for what? Well, I would say a lukewarm message.

WARNING - SPOILER


What are you saying dude? The plot is no plot? And senseless violence? Well, lets see. The violence in book one is mostly the fight to save little children who are going to be seperated from their daemons. Thats senseless? The combat in book 2 is to get the knife which can be used to save the entire universe. Thats sensless? The combat in book 3 is between the two greatest armies ever who want to rule the world. I can't see how it is senseless - it makes everything else seem senseless in comparison. His Dark Materials trilogy are, in my opinion - as good as harry potter. The only reason the haven't done as well is that Harry Potter is set in our world with things we can relate to - where as His Dark Materials is set in a purely ficitional world.

The plot is the most gripping one I have read in a long time - it decides not only the fate of the living but also the fate of the dead.

[LiRA]

I've just finished the trilogy, and I loved it. I actually found Northern Lights/ The Golden Compass under a cushion of a sofa in the local library and had a squiz.
I have some issues with the whole religion thing, being rather undecided in my beliefs right now (what can I say? I'm a typical teen) so the books really appeal to me in that a totally new point of veiw is taken on religion. I love how Pulman's turned 'God' into a rogue angel of sorts. Because that's one of the flaws I saw in the Christian theory of beginning, as in 'what was there before god?'.
I guess books like that appeal to me because I like to think that I'm not stuck here in this world and that there's more options, you know? It's the same with Harry Potter.If there's a possibility of there really being magic and fantasy like in the books, then it gives a little hope. MAybe I'm just strange.

Anyways, for anyone who really liked HDM, I'd recommend Dianna Wynne Jones's Deep Secret and The Merlin Conspiracy whch also does a lot with the whole parrallel universes thing.

[loony4moony]

I loved 'His Dark Materials', and I'm a Christian. :) The way I see it, you don't have to agree with something to enjoy it.

It was exciting, well-written, and the characters were all brilliantly realised. I especially liked Lee Scorseby and cried my eyes out when he died! I couldn't believe it! I adored the idea of daemons, too.

The only thing that vaguely got on my nerves was Pullman's constant portrayal of the Church as being pure evil/ a complete waste of time. I know he was trying to make a point, and I know that the church has made some pretty huge blips throughout history, but it did get a bit much in places. :lol: But hey. As I said, the fact that I didn't agree with the message didn't spoil the book.

I'd highly reccomend Philip Pullman's other series, the Sally Lockhart books.

[Blossom]

The only thing that vaguely got on my nerves was Pullman's constant portrayal of the Church as being pure evil/ a complete waste of time. I know he was trying to make a point, and I know that the church has made some pretty huge blips throughout history, but it did get a bit much in places. :lol: .

Yeah, that annoyed me too slightly ( i am also a christian) but they did it really well in the stage production and i think the humour lessened the evil.

[SSdraken]

As you can obviously tell, HDM is a fantasy, so thats not how the church is in reality, but how it is in the world he is writing about. It makes a good enemy, just like the FBI makes a good enemy in some crime novels. I love the way angels are portrayed - they aren't very powerful as they are made out of light, but **** they look cool ! My favourite character was definetly Iorek Byrinson (spelling?). That bear is too cool ! I can just imagine him blundering into a load of soldiers and tearing them apart.

[Blossom]

my favourite character was Mrs Coulter. Wish i had my own golden monkey to do my evil deeds.

[Catgirl]

Nah, Serafina Pekkala is by far the coolest. The witches totally rock. I love the way they ride pine springs instead of brooms. I always found it odd that out of all the things it the world, witches alway seemed to fly brooms.

What do you guys think that your daemon would be? I think mine would be an owl.

[Tortuga]

I posted this on another board.

Its some dialogue I wrote, like what If they met?

Hermione: Whats that?

Lyra: It's my Alethiometer

Hermione: Really? I think I've read a book about those.

Lyra: Right....



Lyra: That rat your're holding...Is that your--

Ron[interrupted]: --Him? His name is Scabbers.

Lyra: Him? But you're a boy, you're deamon is not suppose to be the same gender as you!

Ron: Demon!!!??? Scabbers is a demon!!???

I suck at this.

[numenor_maiden]

I absolutley loved the Golden Compass- I have that one and still read it all the time! :D The Subtle Knife was good, but not as good as the first one. Then the Amber Spyglass was just plain weird. I never really finished it! :sad:

[Aschenputtel]

Hello SSdraken,

this is my opinion about the trilogy. I think it´s just a big bunch of nonsens. Maybe I´m too old for it, 34 years, but I doubt that! :p The really big difference between HP and HDM is one very important thing: HP is written with love, the motivation behind the HDM story is hatred against people who have got a different view of life than Phillip Pullman.

Greetings

[Morag]

Well I have to say that the series is one of my all time favourite! I love Philip Pullman's idea of God being evil and Devil being good - it made me think (can you tell I'm not a Christian? :D)!

Northern Lights/The Golden Compass is my favourite, followed by the Amber Spyglass and The Subtle Knife in the third place! I like the books so much I bought all three of them when I was in London (I still can't belive how cheap the books are in GB)!

My favourite characters would have to be Will - I can totaly see myself in him, and Iorek - he's just cool!!



What do you guys think that your daemon would be? I think mine would be an owl.
Well I never realy thought about it....yea right:D...I think mine would be a wolf!

[LiRA]

I posted this on another board.

Its some dialogue I wrote, like what If they met?

Hermione: Whats that?

Lyra: It's my Alethiometer

Hermione: Really? I think I've read a book about those.

Lyra: Right....



Lyra: That rat your're holding...Is that your--

Ron[interrupted]: --Him? His name is Scabbers.

Lyra: Him? But you're a boy, you're deamon is not suppose to be the same gender as you!

Ron: Demon!!!??? Scabbers is a demon!!???

I suck at this.


Hahaha, I like this. Did you actually write this story, or is it just something you posted for not particular reason. Cos I think it'd make a fine story. Rather amusing, actually.


My favourite character was probably Asriel. I loved his and Stelmaria (his daemon for anyone who didn't pick it) and if I had a daemon, he'd probably be a cat of some type, like a panther.

[Tim the Wiz]

God being evil and Devil being good

That scares me a bit but ... :rotfl:

Anyway I have to say fave character: Will, the boy with the Subtle Knife. (Not James Bond material but y'know ... :D Yes I'm getting pretty crazy in my old age ...)

[HannahStarr]

What do you guys think that your daemon would be? I think mine would be an owl.

Mine would be something very docile and peaceful, like a butterfly. (Didn't someone have a butterfly daemon in The Golden Compass?)

[Chrysalis]

Mine would be something very docile and peaceful, like a butterfly. (Didn't someone have a butterfly daemon in The Golden Compass?)

Yes, it was the reporter whom Mrs. Coulter kicked out of her appartment.

[Catgirl]

Tortuga, I like your dialogue. I had a fanfic idea which was basicly what the Harry Potter books would be like if they all had daemons, but I never got round to writing it. I started thinking of what everybody's daemon would be. As I have a few thoughts on this maybe you guys could tell me your thoughts on what daemons you think the HP character would have.

Firstly, I think the animagi would have their animagi forms as their daemon, as I have a theory that the two are the same. They both are animal reprisentations of a person's soul. I'm not sure if patronus forms would be the same or not. I don't quite think so.

I think Ron would have a dog daemon, as a dog daemon reprisents a servent and I think Ron, though very individual, above all follows Harry faithfully. I think Ron's daemon would be a terrior.

Hermione's would probably be an owl, as they are a symbol of intelligence.

Fred and George's daemons would be monkeys- mischivious, yet they have hidden intelligence.

I'd love Malfoy's daemon to be a ferret, just becuse it suited him so much being a ferret.

Voldermort's daemon would obviously be a snake, but I am uncertain of what Dumbledores would be. What do you guys think? What about Harry's daemon?

Sorry about getting a bit off topic, but I just adore the concept of daemons and I love talking about them.

[Rebel_sheep]

i adore these books! and, no, they didn't have sex! they were like, what, 13?? that would just be wrong!

[aragog]

I think the idea of Dumbledore's dæmon being a phoenix is too obvious, so I'm not sure what to say. Knowing him it could be something totally oddball like an armadillo or a badger. :D Are magical creatures included in the running?

[loony4moony]

I think Harry's daemon could be a stag. Bit inconvenient for when he plays quidditch...:D

[ornjbreezy]

I loved this trilogy and completely cried at the ending to it. I didn't get many connections then because I was like eleven, but perhaps I should read the books again to really get the full effect. They were very confusing- Oh great, now I just want to pick one up and read it now! Thanks a lot...

[herbertsandbach]

Loved the first two but I'm on the Amber Spyglass and have got stuck the book has been left unread for a couple of weeks now....I'll go back to it soon but I can't leave it too long otherwise I'll forget where the story is up to.

[FizzingWhizbee]

Gah! What is a daemon?

[ornjbreezy]

It's like a soul- more like the mature form of a soul. It's very confusing in the beginning of the trilogy when you see a nonexistant word like that.

[WeasleyIsOurKing]

I think the idea of Dumbledore's dæmon being a phoenix is too obvious, so I'm not sure what to say. Knowing him it could be something totally oddball like an armadillo or a badger. :D Are magical creatures included in the running?
I'm really not sure... I could have sworn there was a magical or mythological daemon in the trilogy but I can't remember.

[greeneyes]

I dont think it would be a major thing if they did have sex! I mean Romeo and Juliet were young when they got together! Love is love! But i guess these days it would seen as a bad thing for 2 underage kids to have sex. With the amount of unwanted babies going around i can see why!
Anyway...enough of that topic...I loved the books! The ending in the Amber Spy Glass was a little disappointing! I expected some huge big temptation from Mary Malone, instead we got this big shpeel about marzipan!
My favourite was Northern Lights. I cant get used to the name Golden Compass!! Doesnt have same ring to it as Northern Lights! The alithiometer is used all through the book so why name one book after it?

Amy :D

[FizzingWhizbee]

It's like a soul- more like the mature form of a soul. It's very confusing in the beginning of the trilogy when you see a nonexistant word like that.
Thanks! I thought it was just my dictionary, so I put the book aside and started another one.

[aragog]

I'm really not sure... I could have sworn there was a magical or mythological daemon in the trilogy but I can't remember.

Ahh, yup.. someone's dæmon (maybe Pan?) turned into a dragon at one point in the first book.

[Nostalgia]

I read them when I was like, 15. Very good novels in my opinion. I don't recall which volume I would call my favourite. Maybe The Subtle Knife? Whatever.

I would recommend them anyway. On the subject of some comparisons, I thought they lacked the charm of the Harry Potter books. Nothing real deep, just not as captivating. Not that the comparison is so relevant.

[loopdeedoo123]

I love those books!! Daemons are awesome, I wish we had them.

spoiler warning

My favorite was the Amber Spyglass, except it was so sad at the end. I kind of invented an alternate ending for myself where they can open 2 windows instead of one. I always hoped that they could make a bridge the way Lyra's father did...

[Bee]

I read a bit of the first one, and I thought the basis for these books was really interesting, with everyone having a personal daemon and so forth... however, I found them incredibly dull and therefore didn't pass the halfway mark in the first book.

[FlyingPhoenix]

His Dark Materials

Finally I managed to end this serie and well I really liked it that it wasn't a happy ending though I stay by my saying that it seems everybody loves Lyra.

Its like that she didn't had to face or lets say interact with people who hate her from the bottom of their heart like Harry in HP with Snap or Malfoy.

In my view is this the fundamental different to HP. But lets talk about the books itself without comparing. Don't worry I won't spoil much since I'm more interest in the theme itself. You see this books are about a war against God, authority how you like to call it but I say this isn't the theme for Lyra, it might not even the theme of this books.
Some might say if not all its against a god believe and as christian one should wonder about this books again I don't think so.

Pullman made a mistake at least I think so its a mistake. Uhm this is based on my own understanding, my own view at God or faith that matter. In fact I agree with His Dark Materials and its view at the church cause its my view too and probably a reason why I despite them so much, if not hate this played faithfulness though those guys are till their core full of my understanding of sin.

I'm bit splitted in my thinking if Pullman made a mistake or not in this book with the view at god. Basicaly in the books is to be read God (real God) don't exist but a bunch of Angel's or let them call creatures then after all they are not different as creature's are who fight about who is going to rule the worlds.

Through Lyra and her journey however we learn (I think so) what God is really about but its shown much more subtle (grin subtle knife) as one might expect. Its in practiculary her journey what shows it and I find it very interesting and fascinating how it was shown.

I liked how much attention Pullmann gave the idea of Love in this books because like I said to me it seemed everyone loves Lyra and at some points it was sappy (really it was) but then again I realise it was important for the theme.

Funny enough the orginal sin isn't betraying or anything a like this in the books but something I did probably call what God is really about in my believe. Once I said I believe in Love and yeah I suppose how strange it might sound I think Love is god. Love is divine after all.
And this is exactly what this books are about. Not so much about the fight since you don't really see Lyra fight against the authority or the regent whatever. Its not so important like one thinks it is in book2.

I really liked this books and the ending though its sad but yet again it makes sense, a doomed sense if you like. At some points it had everything I might expect from HP just on a different level and theme but yet again its at a few area's similar just differently looked at.

Is this serie against God? I don't think so not if you see it like I do. After all Pullmann brings in Angel's one can't bring this in without to have an idea what God is suppose to be about. In the last book you see through the amber spyglass what God is or does. Very interesting if you think about what view you read at a certain part of this book. Important even the methaphor is very telling. But yeah I promised not to spoil it.



I'd never read Lost Paradies but yet again I think this title itself tells us very rightly what this books are about in fact its a backwards way of telling the story of Eve and Adam. With the result they will anyway thrown out of the Paradies but with the promise to come back later after life is finished.

Love is complicated and at hands of Lyra's parents you can read how complicated it can be. Another part I really liked.

This books might get a really good place on my shelf because they are really fantastic. You know one part of me would like to hug thereader till dead for this rec I had really fun to read it.

[Dead Star]

Anyway, the reason I want to discuss those books (because, yes, there IS a reason!) is because they really denigrate the Church and the Catholic Religion. While I was reading them, I couldn't stop thinking about all those priest saying that HP is the Devil's creation, when in His Dark Materials, the main objective of the protagonist is to win a war against Heaven. In Pullman's view, God, or 'The Authority' is the source of all oppression in the universe. The rebel angels represent freedom, tolerance and enlightenment. Lyra's father, Lord Asriel, helps to lead a new war against The Authority. Lyra's mother, the appalling Mrs. Coulter, has other ideas. She is a servant of the mighty and tyrannical Church.

WOW O.O I didn't even know that, but that's probably because I'm not yet done with the first book. That's interesting though, even though I'm an Atheist and don't believe in God in the first place, HOWEVER, I do think the idea of him has really, er, screwed up this world of ours (I've taken World History, so sue me).

I really like this story though, and I find it frighteningly alike to the HP books. But now I'm scared to read what's left because you've all said the trilogy has a sad ending =| I don't like sad endings, they always make me feel like "Well, if they'd only done/hadn't done that, then..." That's what I do everytime I read OOTP, because of a certain character's death.

EDIT: A question's been nagging me ever since I started reading the first book. Now, I get the general idea, but what EXACTLY is the function of a daemon? Is it like Lyra says, a person's soul? Because when the kids had theirs cut off from them, I had the fleeting image of a Dementor since that's their profession in the HP books =\

[pale88]

I think that the way Pullman presented love in this book was great. It wasnt sappy or anything.

One thing I didnt like though, was the idea of God being a farce(cv).

[pink delights]

I just finished reading them. Bought them a couple of weeks ago.

Sorry, Mr. Harry Potter, but you've been replaced by His Dark Materials as my favorite books ever.

They were just plain amazing. That's really all I have to say. Pullman is a genius.

I don't think I've ever cried that much. I almost cried when Lee died, when Lee leaves to reunite with Hester, and when Asriel and Mrs. Coulter sacrifice themselves for their daughter. Now, at the end? I bawled. I really did. It was extremely sad. Also, the whole Lyra and Will's Bench was amazing. So romantic. It was great.

And like someone else said, Pullman couldn't have ended the book any better. Lyra telling Pan they were going to build the Republic of Heaven. Amazing.

I said amazing so many times. Hee.

Another thing, I wanted Mrs. Coulter and Lord Asriel to survive. I wanted them to go back to their world with Lyra. I really loved both characters.

I'm getting 'Lyra's Oxford' as soon as possible.

Also.. Guess who's directing 'The Golden Compass' movie?

Chris Weitz (American Pie, About a Boy)

I won't lie.. I'm really scared.

[Angelic Demon]

i love those books so much. And i agree that i don't think i have cried as much as when lyra and will had to say good bye and o god just the whole love story stil chokes me!

[T_Z]

I finished the series about two weeks ago, and I think its excellent, tough I still think HP is better.

In my opinion, the best book was the second one - The Subtle Knife. It was very good, since it was when the whole worlds confusion really started. And I loved the plot around Will and the knife.

[WeasleyIsOurKing]

IAlso.. Guess who's directing 'The Golden Compass' movie?

Chris Weitz (American Pie, About a Boy)

I won't lie.. I'm really scared.

Wait.

The guy who did American Pie, of all movies, is doing The Golden Compass?

God help us.

[pink delights]

Wait.

The guy who did American Pie, of all movies, is doing The Golden Compass?

God help us.

Yeah, I'm quite scared. 'About a Boy' was good, but 'American Pie' not so much. I'd give him a chance though, he's a fantasy buff and it's quite excited about the films. He might give us a surprise.

[Aquaria]

I love these books!

But everytime I read the last one, I cry so hard. I just can't stand the 2 kids being separated for ever. :upset: Just when they found each other!

[toryvic]

Ok, I'm a bit slow, but is the Golden Compass, the non-British name for Northern Lights??

I absolutely loved the first book, I loved Iorek Byrrinson and Lee Scoresby, the second book was quite cool as well. For some reason I didn't love the third book though, I felt that the action was all over the shot, and I didn't like the outcome. (not becasue they missed out on being together, I just found it corny and a tad annoying)

I still far prefer the Harry Potter books (although was told that HDM would blow my mind)

I very much liked the way that Pullman dealt with the issue of homosexuality. (I found the whole Balthamos/Baruch thing far more touching and poignant than Will/Lyra interaction)

Very enjoyable and thought provoking books, and a must read for any literature lover, however the ideas Pullman conveys aren't up everyboy's street!!!

[Norbertha]

I just finished reading the trilogy about two weeks ago (and I'm 25, but after all, growing up is optional, it's only growing old that's compulsory... I know and 8 year old, though, who read the books and liked them).

And over all, I absolutely loved them.
I liked book 1, though book 2 I found far too predictible. For example, I knew all along that Stanislaus Grumman was Will's father. And the whole thing about war on Heaven and the thing about Eve and the original sin - during book 2 and early on in book 3, I thought oh no, this is only going to be a re-make of the Bible, how fun can that be? But then, in book 3, it turned out that it wasn't a re-make of the Bible at all. And I liked that. I like the way that Pullman uses themes from the Bible, but he turns them completely upside down, and makes an original story out of it. So that way you get a very elegant and powerful mix of the familiar and the unexpected (powerful in the way that it makes the book exiting to read).

I also love the way he has made Lyra's world. It seems that our world and Lyra's might have split sometime around the Reformation (late 1500s) - Lyra's world is in some respects like what our one could possibly have been like if the Reformation and the Scientific Revolution had not happened. I especially enjoyed the way that scientists are called "experimental theologians" - like in mediaeval science, where everything is either Theology or Philosophy. (I'm not having a go at the Catholic church here, I'm just speaking about how universities etc were run before and after the 16th/17th century.)

But out of the 3 books, I found book 3 by far the best. The ending in particular. Quite a few folk have said here that they found it sad. Yes, i was sad, of course, that Lyra and Will couldn't spend the future together. But I also found the last 4 chapters the most beautiful part of the whole series. The ending was wonderful! It made me feel as if I were made of hot chocolate inside. Especially the "gold and silver grove" and the way that Lyra puts the fruit in Will's mouth. And also the bit when Mary Malone tells Lyra and Will about her childhood love, and Lyra feels like she's gotten a key to a new house with lots of doors that open up, and then she sits without moving a muscle because she feels like a cup that's been filled up, and she's afraid of spilling it. And Will on the beach, when "every fibre of his being" is "saturated with love". This all made me feel very happy and warm and filled up with love myself, towards my husband and towards the world in general.

In the end, Pantalaimon asks what it is that they have to build, and Lyra's answer is "the republic of Heaven". This caused a great inspiration in me: The message, as I got it, is to make the most of your life, be happy and help others to be happy too (boths humans and animals). Be curious, make the most of every day. Appriciate the beauty of the world, the world that you live in, and use all your senses to do so. Seek love, not hatred, because love is the most important thing of all. And all this, in a way, is no less than The Meaning of Life... isn't it?

[Ghosted]

I haven't read the whole thread so please forgive me if I repeat (which I am likely to do) things others have said :)

I've read all three and loved the trilogy as a whole.However, I wasn't as keen on The Subtle Knife, but that doesn't really affect my view of the lot.

I was very impressed by the way that Pullman's story was somehow completely mind-blowing and orginal and yet still familiar, as Norbertha said. It's an extremely thought-provoking read.

The thing that got me into the series was actually the first line of Northern Lights. It's something like, "Lyra and her dæmon..." I thought, What the heck is a dæmon? I have to find out... Some people are completely thrown by that and seem to switch off any ability to be at all receptive to the author's new ideas, but others are bitten by the curiosity bug and want to find out more.
In the first few pages, I felt like Pullman was respecting his readers. He wasn't immediately explaining everything, (good story-telling device) or putting any pressure on them and he seemed to just be expressing his faith that they would continue reading. For me personally, it was a subtle way of pulling me into Lyra's world. And then of course I fell in love with the concept of dæmons... :p

Spoiler Warning:

Book 3 was my favourite. I found it very powerful and it evoked a lot of emotion from me. The part where Lyra betrays Pantalaimon and leaves him on the shores... oh, that was so sad! :sad: I'll admit I cried a little at the end. But it had to happen, and IMHO it was a much better ending than it could ever have been if Pullman had just written a happily-ever-after type thing. For me, that would be undermining the rest of the entire book. It was very realistic as we rarely get happy endings like that in life, and so it was a much stronger way to conclude the book.

Anyway, I'll stop rambling. I learnt a lot while reading those books! :)

[ragga]

I just finished the trilogy today after taking a long time to finish the three. I cannot really comment on which is my favourite book, because i didnt really get into the books too well at first(i tended to compare them to HP, and seeing they werent In my opinion, as good left them) Though i finally a few month ago decided to finish number 2, and then i got the spyglass, and well got hooked.

The 3rd book, especially, was so emotional, so thought provoking, so intense, i couldnt put it down towards the end, and just wanted to see if what i thought would happen would actualy happen(and a little of it did)...the ending, i dont know, was interesting. To me i personaly believe a book shouldnt have a happy ending and so should be like life, and this book had the perfect, sad, yet happy ending. It was just so beautiful to read the relationships, and the way they grow closer before what happens, happens.

He is a very powerful author, with so many ideas, and points to make. I would highly recommend those books to anyone. Though i do find my self wondering what would have happened in the future of the characters. Wonderful, im soo glad i decided to try and read them again.

[merlyn509]

Thought this might be of interest to some of you -- as you probably know, New Line is doing the film adaptation of His Dark Materials, with Chris Weitz directing. BridgeToTheStars.Net, a fansite for HDM, just interviewed Chris Weitz about his plans for the adaptation -- you can read the interview at http://www.bridgetothestars.net/index.php?p=weitzinterview

[Natalie_Figg]

Hi I'm new to all this forum stuff so if i end up repeating what other people have said I apologise. I've been reading over the things that everyone has been saying about HP compared to Pullman's trilogy. It's quite interesting. I love both the different sets of books, but think that they are extremely different. Now please no one hate me for saying this because i don't mean it nastily (I love HP) but HP is much more like popular fiction that Pullman, which is more like literature.
By this I'm taking the definitions of literature and popular fiction that I learnt at Uni, popular fiction is essentially what it says it is. It may have some meanings that reflect aspects of our world, but it is essentially a really good story. This doens't mean that it wont stand the test of time, Jane Austen has been accused of being quite simplistic, in that the number of issues it deals with are quite limited. In some ways it can be seen to be the popular fiction of it's age.
Literature on the other hand is concerned not only with a 'good' story, but with reflecting and commenting upon things in our world. Pullman's exploration of religion, and the way in which he links religion with the political ideas of dictatorship and republic, is embedded into every character and part of his novels. Not all the comments may be as clear as others (e.g. the old man in the bottle that Lyra and Will release, possibly being God, and the bears making their own armour or soul), but that's what I love about literature!!
Well this was a very long posting, hope this is the sort of thing that people discuss and I didn't bore you all to tears! :)

[FizzingWhizbee]

Wow. I finished The Amber Spyglass a few days ago. I was simply blown away - it was so amazing! I can't remember ever crying so hard from reading a book.

Ghosted - I agree about the daemon thing! When I first picked up The Golden Compass, I started another books instead because I was so confused by the daemon. Of course, when I read it, I fell in love with daemons. I want one.

This is random, but what does the ae close together (like in daemon) mean? I've seen it in other books, but I don't get what it means.

[Starborn]

I discovered His Dark Materials trilogy 2 years ago, and it's one of my favorite books!

Apart from the different universes (an idea I always liked) the existance of the daemons, the great characters and story, that whole Christianity-war against God thing didn't bug me at all!

Well, I agree with some points made out of the book, and after all, it's the author's imagination and opinion!

But something I agree is that thing, all Christians have something with HP, when His Dark Materials is far more provocative (in their opinion) than HP!

[Drusilla]

I first heard of the His Dark Materials trilogy (then incomplete) when I was about fourteen, and got my hands on a copy of the first book right then. I cried at Roger's death, and now, after five years, I've just finished reading The Amber Spyglass and I've never read a book that made me feel more like my heart was being wrenched out of my chest. Will and Lyra....it's strange to feel for imaginary people the way I do for real ones, and it still hurts to think how they had to be separated- worst of all being how Will had to use his love for Lyra to destroy the only means he had of accessing her during their lifetimes right then... but there's always the one window left through which they will one day reunite, and they have to.....I think I want to cry now.

[loopdeedoo123]

I know... I was SO sad when they couldn't be together... they were so sweet... and I sound like such a sap...

I invented a new ending for my personal well-being. It goes

And then they could open two windows, one for the dead and one between Will and Lyra's world. The end.

hehehe

[Pure_Light]

I love thease books thease are better than harry potter they are more for people my age the thing that is better about harry potter is we are keeped wating.... and there are movies and stuff. There is ment to be one for this set but not sure whats happening about that.
I am reading his books about 'Sally Lockheart' yes conection with COS and the name but any way (thease books were writen before Jks) and I'm loving reading thoes they are so good.

[Norbertha]

I've never read a book that made me feel more like my heart was being wrenched out of my chest.. :agree: I know you're talking about Will and Lyra's final farewell, but 'the heart being wrenched out of her chest' is also the words Pullman used to describe Lyra's feeling when she had to leave Pantalaimon behind (and Will felt similarly, even if he couldn't see his daemon yet). I thought that was a very strong chapter too. It seems that an important theme of the books is that of making a personal sacrifice for the common good. Both leaving their daemons behind in order to travel to the land of the dead, and closing all windows apart from the one out of the land of the dead, thereby being shut away from each other, Lyra and Will make sacrifices that do them terrible pain, but they grow from it.

[Gooner]

I found these books brilliantly written and very moving. Infact it took me less than 2 days to finish the Amber Spyglass. I felt the theme of Sacrifice came though very strongly and I found myself agreeing with Pullmans views on organised religion. The ending touched me more than anyother book has. It left me wondering just what I would have done in there place. I hope I could have made the same decision...

If you didn't know, Chris Weitz has left the film version because he felt he couldn't do the books justice. Lets hope someone comes in who can...

[Drusilla]

Lyra and Will's parting was sad enough, but there were bits in the middle that really did make me cry- Roger's death (the reason I didn't continue reading the trilogy right away), Balthamos and Baruch (one of the thorniest and most brilliantly dealt-with issues in the book- I can bet that kids reading these books will think twice before being bigoted about homosexuals), and the death of Lee Scoresby and Hester. Not to mention the image of poor Pan left on the shores of the land of the dead- in some ways, that was worse than even Will and Lyra's realisation that they had to be apart- again, I could actually feel Lyra's pain as the boat pushed off. And the death of the Lady Salmakia...it was all just so sad. Deaths everywhere, most of the people dying are characters we come to know and love....but the way it ended was brilliant- not happy but hopeful.

I really wonder how a movie is going to do justice to the books. Well, I suppose it'll be good as long as they don't get Chris Colombus.

[Gooner]

Balthamos and Baruch (one of the thorniest and most brilliantly dealt-with issues in the book- I can bet that kids reading these books will think twice before being bigoted about homosexuals)

I completely agree. It was so refreshing to see a childrens book deal with homosexuality as well...

I really wonder how a movie is going to do justice to the books. Well, I suppose it'll be good as long as they don't get Chris Colombus.

yep, the first two HP movies where cheesy enough. Colombus would completely strangle HDM

[HaRrYpOtTeR5000]

I love this books.... So majestic. Sad ending.... true. But these books are still great!!!