Another Priori Incantatem Mistake?

[Qeomash]

While reading Priori Incantatem again, I noticed another mistake. (Probably not the first, slap me if this has been discussed)


Anyway, in the chapter "Flesh, Blood, and Bone", Harry and Cedric appear in the graveyard. Wormtail approaches them and sets Voldemort down.

From Flesh Blood, and Bone:
From far away, above his head, he heard a high, cold voice say, "Kill the spare."

A swishing noise and a second voice, which screeched the words to the night: "Avada Kedavra!"


Voldemort gave Wormtail the order to kill Cedric. Wormtail used his wand, since Voldemort's was stashed in the extra robes that were (presumbably) around Voldemort. Voldie wasn't revealed, so the cloak wasn't opened to retrive the wand.

Then, later, during Priori Incantatem, Cedric comes out of Voldemort's wand. How is this possible, when Wormtail killed him?

[Cat]

I'm sure Wormtail doesn't have a wand after spending so long as a household rat. I think it was Voldemort's wand.

He could have been carrying the wand until he put it in the pocket while tending to matters with little baby gruesome.

[Da da da da da86]

Originally posted by Cat
I'm sure Wormtail doesn't have a wand after spending so long as a household rat. I think it was Voldemort's wand.

He could have been carrying the wand until he put it in the pocket while tending to matters with little baby gruesome.

But then that begs the question, how did they get Voldemort's wand, if he was away for so long?

Also, why didn't the curse against Harry appear?

[Cat]

Goodness knows how they got Voldemort's wand. But it could have been stashed and returned to him. It certainly was returned to him because the Priori Incantato spell revealed the spells he himself had cast. He didn't borrow Wormail's wand to kill Lily and James.

What curse do you mean? The failed one? That didn't appear because it failed. He cast it and he might as well have cast it at a rock for all the Harry-killing it accomplished.

[Elangomatt]

I always assumed that Wormtail was using Voldies wand. After all Peter can't just walk into Ollivanders and get himself a new wand.

As far as why the curses that missed Harry, what is there to see about them? The spells that were used agaisnt Harry before the wands connected, had no visual representation since they did not do anything. (I don't have the book around, but if I remember correctly, there were screaming noises between some of the people that came out. I always thought those were people screaming from the Cruciatus curse)

[timmay]

same here and there was a flash of green ;light representing the curse used againt harry im fairly sure

[Qeomash]

Actually, the shouts of pain were Voldemort's "Curico!" curses on Harry. I just wonder why we didn't see Voldemort's attacks on Crouch Sr.

[Sinistra]

Probably the various screamings and such represented a whole bunch of crucios and other things. What would an alohamora look like coming back out of a wand? Some spells may not have any visual or auditory representation.

[Puffskein]

I don't understand myself what happened to Voldemort's wand. He didn't have a body to get it out of the rubble. JKR had better answer that question later.

[dantares]

Another mistake I found is that it was clear Voldemort use power magic to break Bertha's memory charm (if I'm not wrong, it's the cruciatus curse) but right after Bertha appeared, James and Lily appeared, meaning, Voldemort must have totured Bertha with another wand or JKR simply forgets to put it in.

[Sam]

I think that Wormtail probably got a hold of Voldie's wand in the shuffle. How else would he have one? He's been a rat for years--for goodness sake??!?! And, he's supposed to be dead-how can he walk into Ollivander's and buy a wand?
He's definitely using the wand that Voldemort carried when he was at full power.

[HbAznKyootie]

this is what i think happened to voldemort's wand: peter was there on the night of godric's hollow, but watch from afar waiting for the dark lord to be done and to be rewarded. but then voldemort failed, and the house was destroyed. peter ran over to see what happen and saw that the dark lord was gone and powerless, but just in case he returned, peter took voldemort's wand skrank the wand and transformed back into a rat. far-fetched i know, but its just a theory. :)

[hpangel102]

It was Voldemorts wand. How could a rat carry around a wand and have it not be noticeable?

[HbAznKyootie]

well, say that night peter was wearing a robe with pockets. he could have done a shrinking charm on voldie's wand and put it in his pocket, and then transformed into a rat.

[Bilbo]

Perhaps, in OotP or in later books, JKR will reveal how Voldemort's wand was kept safe.

[Oddfellow]

I have a theory about how a rat could keep a shrunken wand...
has anyone seen the movie "Three Kings" with George Clooney?
just a thought....

Liars Prosper
anonymous

[martinnyg]

Originally posted by Oddfellow
I have a theory about how a rat could keep a shrunken wand...
has anyone seen the movie "Three Kings" with George Clooney?
just a thought....

Liars Prosper
anonymous

LOL it would be uncomfortable having it there for 13 years :D

[Bilbo]

Maybe we should wait for all seven books before we start finding faults...give JKR a chance to explain everything.

[Qeomash]

If I'm recalling correctly, didn't Pettigrew have a second wand hidden behind his back when he blew up the half the street? Perhaps that was Voldemorts, and Pettigrew had both wands at hand. (The above theory that Wormtail pulled the wand from the house.) He then transformed and the wands went with him like his clothes.

And JKR then made a mistake.

[Cobra245063]

Originally posted by Qeomash
If I'm recalling correctly, didn't Pettigrew have a second wand hidden behind his back when he blew up the half the street? Perhaps that was Voldemorts, and Pettigrew had both wands at hand. (The above theory that Wormtail pulled the wand from the house.) He then transformed and the wands went with him like his clothes.

And JKR then made a mistake.


Yeah Peter did have a wand hidden behind his back. I think that was his own wand because the explosion didnt come out of Voldie's wand (although it may have I lent my GoF copy to a friend) So I think when Pettigrew reached for his wand he was actually reaching vor Voldie's. With his own wand in his hand he dropped and the Ministry of Magic recoved the wand and Peter's finger. With the idea that when he transformed the wand just stayed in his robes, I agree. The reason he didn't pull it out in the Shrieking Shack 1) He was outnumbered. 2) Having it in his pocket for 12 years he probably forgot about it. 3) If he did pull it out he would have been killed instatly or possibly stunned. Again this may not be true, but hey atleast I tried.


P.S. The Three Kings theory really freaks me out. I have seen that movie.

[WhiteSlash]

First of all, my thread is sort of like this, exept if harry could have saved Cedric. 2nd: I agree with Cobra. That's what most likely happened. and 3rd, I've never seen the 3 kings. Hehe!!:D ;)

[Qeomash]

Neither have I. What's this theory that you guys are talking about?

[rotsiepots]

Originally posted by HbAznKyootie
well, say that night peter was wearing a robe with pockets. he could have done a shrinking charm on voldie's wand and put it in his pocket, and then transformed into a rat.

Is it possible to perform magic on an object so potently powerful as a wand? For some reason I always assumed it wasn't possible...

Edit: I always assumed that one of the Death Eaters turned up in Godric's Hollow to witness the death and destruction first hand. Perhaps even Peter's conscience drove him to see what he had done. Undoubtedly a Death Eater would have picked up Voldemort's wand and kept it for their own motivations (whether it was to return to Voldemort later, or to treasure).

[Oddfellow]

"I'll never tell! I'll never tell! I'll never tell!"

[Ashley Summerlight]

I think that JKR felt like putting that in to kinda mystify the readers. She must've known that the release of book five would be delayed so she kinda put in something for everyone to ponder on whilst they waited.

[EvilMeghan]

In GoF, Harry and Voldemort couldn't perform any spell on the other if they casted the spells at the same time, due to Priori Incantatem and the common core of their wands. Knowing this, each could just perform a spell at the same time as the other to prevent from being killed.

Does this mean a final showdown with Harry (solo) vs. Voldemort (solo) is impossible? Does someone else have to kill Voldemort for Harry? Or will Harry use someone else's wand, even though it won't work as well, just so he can kill Voldemort?

[daniel4hp]

The spells would have to be cast at the exact same moment, so even if one of them tried to block the other's spell, it would be near impossible. In GoF Harry wasn't trying to block Voldemort's spell, but if he had been trying to, he would have most likely failed. The caster would have the advantage of deciding when to cast the spell, and only after it was cast would the other person know to cast a spell to stop it. By that time it would be to late.

[TUNKNAPS]

As it stands, harry is the ONLY person who can kill voldimort. Because of the mark his mother left him, which is now in voldemort, no one can proform avada kidivara without suffering the same fate voldemort did when he used it on harry.

No either harry will need another wand, or he'll use some other means to kill him. If he's as powerful as some people think (i've heared some people think he's more powerful than dumbledore) his raw magic mignt be powerful enough to fry voldemort to death.

either that or it'll be a really sad end to the books :(

[jr119us]

To do priori incantatem the wands have to be used against eachother at the same time, so it was just lucky (or destiny, or whatever) that they were at the same time in GoF. Personally, I think Voldy will get the Dementors kiss, though, because he cant be physically killed. Dumbledore said so

[EvilMeghan]

How could Voldemort get the Dementor's Kiss if the Dementors are in the same league as Voldemort?

It is true that it would be hard to recreate the Priori Incantatem, but that would get annoying if that happened...

[1MelissaPotter]

If they were promised more prisoners at Azkaban and Voldemorts soul to suck maybe they would take it. They'd probably need a lot of convincing though.

[rotsiepots]

Originally posted by TUNKNAPS (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=174440#post174440))
As it stands, harry is the ONLY person who can kill voldimort. Because of the mark his mother left him, which is now in voldemort, no one can proform avada kidivara without suffering the same fate voldemort did when he used it on harry.

I don't necessarily agree with this statement. :no:

Harry isn't immune to Avada Kedavra; his mother's love saved him once from the spell, but I doubt this "ancient magic" has left him permanently resistant to the spell's effects.

I think anyone could kill Harry or, indeed, Voldemort with a strategically placed Avada Kedavra.

[GlassRoses314]

I kind of doubt that Voldemort can be killed by Avada Kedavra. Because when he did it the first time, his body died, yet his soul remained. What's to stop it from happening again? So I don't think Voldie will die by means of Avada Kedavra. It took a complex ritual to bring him back to life, who's to say it won't take an equally complex ritual to kill him? And now that he has Harry's blood, I'm sure that will provide another obstacle for Harry to face. Poor kid :(

[Beatrice Bottbean]

Someone suggested in another thread (though I can't find it now) that when Harry thought he saw a glimpse of triumph for a second in Dumbledore's eyes after telling Dd about how Voldemort had used Harry to perform his restoration spell that Voldemort's using Harry to give Vd protection also gave Vd Harry's weaknesses or humanness. I think it is implied in Book One that Harry can die when Dd says he almost didn't there in time to save Harry. The look of triumph really puzzled me and I like this explanation the best of all the ones that I've heard. It seems probable to me that if Harry had a real weakness, or if there was a way to undue the effect, Dd would be the one who would know it.

I also don't think Vd has any of the protections that he afforded himself last time to prevent his death. He says in Book 4 that after he failed to get the stone, he stopped seeking immortality temporarily and set his sights lower - on returning to his mortal form.

As far as avada kedavra is concerned, I think it would take someone like Bartie Crouch, Sr. to use that on Voldemort - someone who may be on the "good" side but whose tactics have sunk as low as the Death Eaters as Sirius describes him. Relatedly, Sirius doesn't seem to agree w/Crouch's decision to allow aurors to use the unforgivable curses against Death Eaters, though maybe this is only b/c of his understandable belief in the need for a proper trial. In addition, there are several times that characters talk about how there are some powers that no good wizard would use, particularly in response to the notion that Voldemort had powers that Dd never did. Keep in mind that the only person besides Vd that we have ever seen actually perform the curses was Crouch, Jr.

On the notion of the Dementor's kiss, I think there is a lot to suggest that the Death Eaters will end up working for Vd b/c he will be better able to accomodate their needs - though I wouldn't put it past one of them to betray Vd if that somehow better suited the Dementor's needs. I doubt Dd would ever align himself with them, though.

To summarize everything I just said, I have NO IDEA how or whether Vd will be killed. I say whether b/c of the scene where Harry saves Pettigrew and says his parents would not have wanted Sirius and Lupin to become killers. I think the debt Dd told Harry that Pettigrew would owe him will pay a big role in this. Maybe the look of triumph on Dd's face also had something to do with the debt and the fact that Pettigrew was the one cutting Harry's arm? Perhaps Pettigrew will be a turncoat again now that he is in Harry's debt? In any case, I am really having a difficult time imagining how Vd will die, but you guys have given me more ideas than I ever could have hoped to come up with. Please keep them coming!

[rotsiepots]

Originally posted by GlassRoses314 (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=174845#post174845))
I kind of doubt that Voldemort can be killed by Avada Kedavra. Because when he did it the first time, his body died, yet his soul remained. What's to stop it from happening again? So I don't think Voldie will die by means of Avada Kedavra. It took a complex ritual to bring him back to life, who's to say it won't take an equally complex ritual to kill him? And now that he has Harry's blood, I'm sure that will provide another obstacle for Harry to face. Poor kid :(


Voldemort has embraced mortal life, thus a strategically placed Avada Kedavra will kill him. The fact that he is no longer immortal is what prevents him from becoming a spirit-like form, should someone attempt to kill him with Avada Kedavra. Voldemort was immortal when he attacked Harry, thus he didn't die (his spirit remained). Now that he is mortal the consequence of being hit by Avada Kedavra is, most certainly going to be, death.

[hermiones mum]

Would you say that in some ways Harry has lead a charmed live.
His mother, Lily, was excellent at charms and it was her protection that kept Harry from being killed by Voldemort. We presume that Dumbledore has placed a form of protection on Harry whilst he is in the care of his relatives the Dursleys. Fawkes affected a kind of protection by the core of their wands in priori incantatem - the two wands being useless against each other.
Would the love of a mother protect Voldemort...does he believe he can touch Harry because that protection now runs through his veins, or does it just mean that his presence is not registered, as he is masked by Harrys blood. Will Harrys blood remain uncontaminated in Voldemorts body? Has Voldemort become mortal which is why Dumbledore appeared triumphant, surely anyone can kill Voldemort.
Will Harry and Voldemort have to fight in a more muggle way!

[Beatrice Bottbean]

Voldemort and Harry fighting as muggles is such a great idea, hermione's mum! How much would Slytherin's heir hate that? So fitting with the pureblood/muggle-born theme too!

Also, you made me really think about the protection from Lily being placed in Voldemort. From what Voldemort says, he seems to think that he has gained that protection but, going back to the look of triumph that I still don't understand, we don't understand the complete nature of the magic that was used to create the protection. You've really got me wondering what effect that magic would have when someone whom the magic was meant to protect against now has that magic running through his own blood. All Dumbledore says when Harry asks is that "Voldemort has overcome that particular barrier." Does this also imply that whatever magic was used has other barriers as well? He is cryptic, that Dumbledore.

[hermiones mum]

Will the sword that Harry pulled out of the sorting hat be the item that kills Voldemort.

[Picko]

Will the sword that Harry pulled out of the sorting hat be the item that kills Voldemort.

For soem reason I just find it hard to see Voldemort get killed by a weapon like a sword, it just seems a little far-fetched.

[hermiones mum]

Wouldn't it be ironic that such a mundane muggle like item would kill the great wizard, of course it doesn't have to be held in Harrys hand.
perhaps it is the force of three wizards sending into his body or the fact that it could be dipped in a poison....sorry Snapes opening line to Harry comes flooding back :huh:

[Picko]

Well it certainly would be ironic considering that Voldemort has successfully killed many powerful wizards whose powers would be far more dangerous than any common muggle weapon.

[hermiones mum]

He didn't have Harrys blood in him them, unless he goes through all the potions and spells to keep him immortal again won't he be weaker than before.

[ilovelifex1000]

I always thought DD was capable of killing Voldie.

[hermiones mum]

Yes, Dumbledore has already killed one evil wizard, he wouldn't be using Harry as bait would he?

[TUNKNAPS]

No, dumbledore cannot kill voldemort, either because of his good nature, or he jsut isn't powerful enough. If he could jsut kill him why didn't he do it 15 years ao during his origional reign of terror?

Also... Why dont you think harry's mother's protection is still in effect? Didn't we see in book one that it worked well on prof. Quirrell when he tried to kill harry? There is no evidence that it won't work anymore.

The only person it won't work for is voldemort, because we saw that he now is immune, and maybe has the same effect, when he touched harry in book 4.

I think, this would go right with J.k Rowling's stratagy to have to have to have harry fight and resist the excruciating pain caused by being near voldemort and have harry have to kill him.

As far as the pheonix having aythign to do with it, i think the pheonix will paly a part on some level. I heared someone give a good theory in another thread that fawks chooses her next caretaker. I also heared smewhere someones theory that fawks' caretakers are the "decendants of Gryffindore". I would go one step further and say that these decendants are also the order of the pheonix mentioned in the title of the next book. A high caliber of wizards who got to the status because of the choices they made in their life. :)

Far Fetched, i know... And amybe the wrong palce to say this but i had a sudden insparation :)

[fuzzi95]

His mothers protection is no longer in affect, because voldemort can touch him. I don't think that any other death eaters will try to get at harry though. But, voldemort now has the protection that harry recieved from his mom.

[GodricSlytherin]

But, if Harry is no longer protected, then Voldy doesn't have the protection. Why does the protection have to be contained in his blood....why not his magic aura.....
If it doesn't work for Harry, what protection does voldy have? Who says there is protection. A spell has to be performed....
I am just rambling....don't mind me
LA LA LA!!!
Whoosh!

[fuzzi95]

Whoa, well, I guess the protection is gone then!

[Harvey16]

i think to defeat voldy harry, ron ,and and hermoine will work together to and the magic between them will be somewhat stronger that voldermort's. about harry's protection it said it was in his skin not his blood .

[MoonyMechele]

I've wondered about this, too...... I can't think of anything really logical to say, except wait. :)

[1MelissaPotter]

I don't think Voldemort will ever die- body, but i definatley think if a Dementor sucked his soul he'd be gone- or take over the dementor. Hes really hard to get rid of. DD will have to finish him off somehow.

[rotsiepots]

Originally posted by hermiones mum (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=175088#post175088))
He didn't have Harrys blood in him them, unless he goes through all the potions and spells to keep him immortal again won't he be weaker than before.


:yup: Voldemort is weaker than before, hence the gleam of triumph in Dumbledore's eye etc. As a result of embracing mortal life he can now be killed. I think that's a source of celebration for anyone in the wizarding world who remembers Voldemort's first reign of terror.

[Beatrice Bottbean]

Just a thought that occurred to me from reading some posts in this thread, but what do you think a more powerful instance of priori incantatem would do? Even though it only creates shadows of previous spells, these shadows were able to delay Voldemort once. What if Harry could hold the connection long enough to make all Voldemort's victims reappear? What effect do you think they could have on Voldemort? They must be able to do something since they could delay him last time.

Also, do you think there is any significance to the fact that the flesh of the servant needed to be willingly given and Pettigrew initially wanted to use someone other than Harry for the spell, was still in Harry's debt, and seems to be giving the flesh as much out of fear of Voldemort as a desire to see Voldemort return? In other words, willingly can mean different things in different contexts and do you think that Pettigrew's actions fully satisfied the criteria for willingness here or only satisfied the criteria enough for the spell to work but still produce repercussions down the road? Just a possibility...

[Elangomatt]

I have always thought that Wormtail did not exactly "willingly give" his flesh either. It appears to be enough for Voldemort to get his body back, but maybe Voldemort is weakened by the fact that Pettigrew did not really want to give he flesh. Also the fact that Pettigrew is in debt to Harry for having his life saved may be a weakness of Voldemorts too.

P.S. Beatrice, I am going to answer your private message, but I have been kinda busy

[EvilMeghan]

Did anyone else notice that Voldemort seemed to have gotten nervous with all the echoes of the victims of Avada Kedavra coming out of his wand, or was it just me?

[1MelissaPotter]

I think I would be nervous if I was an evil killer and my victims returned to do god knows what to me- however thats just me.

[nfh_aftran]

I think he still has the protection....except now it's not nearly as evident. I'm not sure about Voldie being able to kill him, though....

That would be interesting to see, a 21/22 year old Daniel Radcliffe wincing in pain and clutching his scar while fighting/being tortured by Voldie.....

[Eva Gaade]

He wasen't only nervous, he was in shock. he was just as unprepared for this as Harry.

[1MelissaPotter]

I hope hes unprepared for the Order of the Phoenix (If they are a group of wizards/witches set out to kill Voldemort, but thats a whole different thread! lol)

[Hpmons]

I search for a thread, but couldnt find one on this.

In the Priori Incantatem scene, Harry sees all the spells Voldermort has done since his parents died. But how comes it doesnt show Voldermorts spell on Harry? He did cast it, even if it did backfire, so it should have shown something. Is it just a mistake? Or perhaps something more... :p

[Auri DeMeer]

:goes to re-read the passage for the n-th time:

[Shoujo Kitsune]

I think that there might be something with the ghosts/spirits/shadows of the victims, as Harry is still verymuch alive, he wasn't able to keep the essence of Harry trapped in his wand....

[Hpmons]

But Wormtails silver hand Voldermort made came out of his wand? And it is made out to sound like ANY spell Voldermort did would come out, Dumbledore made it sound like that, and he would know best.

[Shoujo Kitsune]

But the hand had a part of Wormatail in it...Being as he gave his hand to Voldemort...but I could be completly off here!

[Rounded Buddha]

But the spell never touched Harry, did it? It got merged with Harry's spell into the Priori Incantem

RB

[Earendil]

If I remember correctly, there were "screams" heard from Voldemort's wand, to represent the Cruciatus Curse he had just cast.

[Shoujo Kitsune]

oo oo! good thinking Earendil! I forgot about that! so, my essance theory is out...

[supergirly]

Maybe Voldie didn't use his own wand on the 'dreaded night'. He was in a wizarding house after all; maybe for some reason he decided to use Lily or James's wand to kill them? Wizards seem to have a very strong connection with their wands, so perhaps Voldie didn't want that death 'recorded' on his for some reason?

[remo]

Voldie used his own wand since Lily and James came out of it. I don't think he would have then used one of their wands to try to kill Harry. It would have been more time consuming to stop pick up Lilys wand, then kill Harry.
It is a very good question. The spell he used on Harry didn't come back out of the wand, only the 5 echos did. I always thought the screams were from them squeezing back out of the wand. But the cruciatis curse makes more sense. But then why didn't we see an echo of wormtails hand or Avadra Kadavra when it was used on Harry.

[Shoujo Kitsune]

we did see an echo of the hand, and that's what we are trying to debate...where is the curse that hit harry? Even if it didn't work , then we would see something, right?

[Rounded Buddha]

Yes, but what would you see, Aren't the things that come out of the wand are results of the the spells cast? So you see nothing in the space where the Adrava Kedrava was cast.

[remo]

I totally forgot about seeing wormtails hand. I'd never noticed that before. I checked the book and there is no mention of anything happening with Voldemorts wand between Bertha Jorkins and Lily coming out. Hmmm, very odd. I wonder if it was an oversight since the spell didn't work on Harry. Or, since the spell hit Voldemort should we have seen an echo of Voldie suffering in pain?

[GrangerGal]

I dont think it came out b/c the spell DIDN'T work... He tried to do it but it wasn't successful so there wasnt a shadow of the spell to come out. A spell produces something. When he killed someone, he produced a spirit. When he made a hand for Wormtail, there was, well, a hand! Anyway after he tried to kill Harry, he failed and therefore there was no product to come out of the wand. At least that is my theory on this one! Feel free to disagree! :)

[remo]

I thought that at first. But we do know a spell worked. It bounced off Harry, gave him the scar, and nearly killed Voldemort. So something came out of his wand that night. Technically it should have come out in reverse, but there is no mention of it. It may or may not have anything to do with the rest of the series. But according to how Priori Incantatem works something should have come out between Bertha and Lily.

[GrangerGal]

But the actual spell didn't work. I think the spell went wrong and so there was no product from it. Hummm.... now I don't know though. It wasn't the product that was desired so maybe that is why it didnt come out. Also we don't know if the spell that hit Voldemort was his own spell or the ancient magic protecting Harry, or his mother's countercurse. Hummm... the more I think about it, it would make sense if what reduced Voldemort was the countercurse of love from Lilly Potter and that is why there wasn't a shadow from Voldemort's wand.

[pasalita]

FYI: I've merged HPmons' thread about the Priori Incantatum scene to this already existing thread. Again, if you've done a search but still have questions about whether or not one should begin a new thread or simply post in an already existing one, it would bode well for the staff if you PM'd one of us prior to beginning a new thread. Thanks!

[GrangerGal]

Now that the threads are together I think that Voldemort was harmed more by the counter curse than his spell not working which would explain the missing spell. I also think that Voldemort was scared b/c his victims were coming back... who wouldn't be.

[rusk]

Several people on this thread have talked about the time between when Bertha came out of the wand and then Lily.

But in my book it goes from Bertha to James to Lily. That has always bugged me too because it was a mistake, if they were truly in reverse order then Lily should come out and then James.

Was this mistake later corrected, and I just have an older printing of the book? Or does everyone else's book have James and Lily switched in the order they should come out of the wand?

Mine is labeled "First American edition, July 2000"

[jordmundt6]

You and I have old printings rusk. That was a major error that was corrected.

On Voldie being scared. He had no clue what was happening or how this kid could stand up to him. Remember he set this all up as final proof that Harry was weak and lucky and not really a threat. Also, the phoenix song which heartened Harry unnerved him. It emboldens the pure of heart and makes evildoers quail.

There's another possible mistake though. If Pettigrew killed Cedric, why did Cedric come out of Voldemort's wand? Did Pettigrew use his master's wand?

I've also read the revised version. The timing is off, it doesn't seem to make as much sense.

Originally posted by remo (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=271970#post271970))
I totally forgot about seeing wormtails hand. I'd never noticed that before. I checked the book and there is no mention of anything happening with Voldemorts wand between Bertha Jorkins and Lily coming out. Hmmm, very odd. I wonder if it was an oversight since the spell didn't work on Harry. Or, since the spell hit Voldemort should we have seen an echo of Voldie suffering in pain?


Ooh, I get it. No. In order for there to be an echo there'd have to be a death. The spell bounced off Harry (or more likely got chewed up by whatever curse Harry threw back at it.) Voldie didn't die, he wouldn't have left an echo. One other thing. There was no echo for any of the Cruciatus or Imperius Curses.

Ear--that doesn't explain the Imperius Curses that are missing and the screaming continued throughout the Priori Incantatem sequence, so it can't be solely linked to the Cruciatus Curse.

I think we did see the curse that rebounded on Voldemort. If you remember Harry's Dementor memories from PoA, he feels the pain in his forehead while he still hears his mother screaming, which would indicate that perhaps the curse passed through her and hit him as well.

[rotsiepots]

Presumably Wormtail abandoned his wand when he chose to lead the life of Scabbers. I have no doubt that he used Voldemort's wand to kill Cedric.

:)

[Nys]

maybe what J.K forgot to put in was that the Priori Incantateum only brings back all of those spell's done that were the spell that was met with its brother. Voldermort had used the Avakdava spell so all of those spell's that had been used came out.
I also don't understand completely the animagi thing, the spell must cause the wand to shrink, they must still have it otherwise they wouldn't be able to change back.

[rusk]

Nys: you are forgetting that the hand that Voldemort made for Wormtail came out of the wand. Clearly not the Killing Curse.

[jordmundt6]

I don't think the transformation spell for Animagi requires a wand. Anybody wanna jump in here and explain what the echoes of the other Unforgivables look like or should look like?

[remo]

Ooh, I get it. No. In order for there to be an echo there'd have to be a death.
But no, because the first thing that comes out of the wand is "echoing screams of pain...then _ Voldemorts' red eyes widened with a shock - a dense, smoky hand flew out of the tip of it and vanished...the ghost of the hand he had made wormtail...more shouts of pain..." Then cedric and the rest of the human echos came out. The first shouts of pain would have been the cruciatis curse on Harry, then wormys hand, then the shouts are from the DE he used crutiatis on, Avery. I don't see how the Imperious could have been seen as an echo since it is controlling another person. But with the screams and Wormtails hand there were no deaths involved.

Now the Avada Kadavra curse didn't fail or go wrong. When Voldi is explaining to the DE's what happened he says "My curse was deflected by the woman's foolish sacrifice, and it rebounded upon myself." So the curse did work, then it should have come back out of the wand somehow. But it didn't.

[jordmundt6]

That's an explanation he got from Harry. But did you notice that the wand was screaming in spaces where there weren't Cruciatus Curses? The screaming was attributed to the wand (the wand's reaction to being forced to regurgitate its spells). In order for an Avada Kedavra to work completely, there has to be a death. It didn't work on Voldie. Besides, If the countercurse was completely successful, shouldn't Harry have been unmarked?

[jordmundt6]

I think what hit Voldemort might have been partially his curse, but partially something else, something Harry generated by himself. And I don't know if we'll ever know what that was.

[kneazlet]

Am I the only one who thinks it unlikely that JKR would have Harry or anyone else on the Good side actually kill Voldemort when it comes down to it? It's only the dark wizards who use the Unforgiveable Curses -- and it's not like the UC's are forgiveable-under-circumstances-of-dire-need-but-generally-to-be-avoided, they're flat out Unforgiveable.

Isn't it more likely that by accepting love/humanity into his system through Harry's stolen blood, V has doomed himself to redemption, and that's the glint in DD's eye at the end of Bk4? Or would that just be too Star Wars?

[jordmundt6]

Yeah, I think she mentioned that in an interview already. I think we might end up wiht a repeat of the time they first met and Voldemort's own curse will rebound on him and make him the same kind of spirit, but that Harry will trap him. Realizing he's trapped, Voldemort will quit, thereby committing souicide (or he won't quit, he'll just play another waitng game. Long may he wait!

[remo]

That's an explanation he got from Harry. But did you notice that the wand was screaming in spaces where there weren't Cruciatus Curses? The screaming was attributed to the wand (the wand's reaction to being forced to regurgitate its spells). In order for an Avada Kedavra to work completely, there has to be a death. It didn't work on Voldie. Besides, If the countercurse was completely successful, shouldn't Harry have been unmarked?
Actually the only other time the wand screams is between Bertha and the old muggle man. Remeber back to Harrys dream in the divination room (chapter 29), V gets a message that Crouch Sr. has been killed, but he does crucio on Wormtail again since it is wormtails fault that Crouch Sr escaped. That is the other scream during the priori incantatem, the wand doesn't emit screams at another time.
But Voldi had taken steps to avoid death. I think the curse would have worked had Harry not been protected by his mothers sacrifice. And even if it hadn't work some sort of echo still should have come out of the wand. But the Imperius curse didn't echo either.
Maybe it was something JKR overlooked or maybe it does mean something. Or maybe there was no echo to visualize, so that is why there is none (like with the imperius curse).

[GrangerGal]

I agree with your last statement remo. Maybe if there is no SOLID product of a curse or a spell there is no shadow or echo that can come out of the wand. For example, Priori Incantatum can't bring back torture b/c how can it show pain unless it brings up the person's face who felt the pain. Maybe the screams are just echoes of previous torture that the wand has done and aren't specific times that Voldemort killed or tortured. Maybe the screams are the wands cries and not victims cries. That wand has been through too much. Anyway what I am trying to say is if there is not a visual product than there is nothing that comes out of the wand. Also could it be that the wand just spits out spells that they want to.

[Nys]

Originally posted by GrangerGal (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=273560#post273560))
I agree with your last statement remo. Maybe if there is no SOLID product of a curse or a spell there is no shadow or echo that can come out of the wand. For example, Priori Incantatum can't bring back torture b/c how can it show pain unless it brings up the person's face who felt the pain. Maybe the screams are just echoes of previous torture that the wand has done and aren't specific times that Voldemort killed or tortured. Maybe the screams are the wands cries and not victims cries. That wand has been through too much. Anyway what I am trying to say is if there is not a visual product than there is nothing that comes out of the wand. Also could it be that the wand just spits out spells that they want to.


I agree with the first bit of this, I reckon that it brings back things that it has killed off, thereby it has something to show (I was kinda leading towards this last time I wrote something(actually I forgot about the had coming out)) but it would make sense that it couldn't show all the other curses ect that the wand had done, it wouldn't have anyway of showing it.

[Barbara Kennedy]

Perhaps this should be merged with the newer thread about Priori Incantatem?
Sorry, my goof. The new thread was closed. I didn't see that it was closed before I moved this thread.:banghead: :sorry:

[pasalita]

*bump*

[purplehawk]

I've just had a severe shocker this evening. (Thanks Whiz... :evil: )

Follow this link (http://www.hp-lexicon.org/timeline_potters-old.html) and please post your thoughts here!

I don't think I've felt quite so stupid in a long time. I knew there was something fishy about the order in which Lily and James came out of Voldemort's wand in the cemetery. In fact, I sent an email to the publisher and got the stock answer that it was a mistake and had been corrected in later editions. I have one book and one set of Jim Dale CDs each - one with Lily coming out first; the other with James first. I intended to be ready for either contingency.

Now someone points out the spell Voldemort cast to kill Harry did NOT come out of his wand in the graveyard!!! I am almost speechless. I've always thought Voldemort killed James then Lily, or Lily then James, and then tried to kill Harry. If that is fact, that backfired Avada Kadavra should have shown up in the cemetery before either of Harry's parents!

The absence of the echo of that spell from Voldemort's wand does seem to indicate Voldemort somehow tried to kill Harry first. If that is true, how could the "Ugly Baby" Voldemort use his wand to kill James and Lily? (I loved that phrase)! Which begs the question: who did kill them?

[fawkes5]

If the rebounded AK did come out of the wand, in what form shall it take? The AK on Lily and James came out as Lily and James. So shouldn't the rebounded AK come out as Voldemort? Would that be possible considering Voldemort was then alive and well?

I don't really know yet what to think. Have to go back to GoF first. :)

[Daveydee]

Mystery or mistake?

It's all being discussed here in this thread:

Prioir Incantatem: Inconsitencies in the scene (http://cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=5962&highlight=priori+incantatem)

[purplehawk]

I followed your link, Daveydee, but that thread hasn't had a post in three months, and that was a one-word "bump!" The last viable post was April 26th. I dunno... I guess the mods can sort it out. :)

[Schlubalybub]

do you know what really annoys me about harry potter fans. the fact that they have to work out what year everything happened in. it doesnt matter. yes, it say when Nick died, 500 years before, but that was when she wrote the book, not when she intends them to be set. they are set in the immediate present, and nobody should be that bothered about what year it was. it doesnt matter, get me?

[purplehawk]

I was a little turned off by the "timeline" of events I saw there, too... and particularly those under the priori incantatum section, where they treated the screams of pain echoing from Voldemort's wand as spells not mentioned in the cemetery scene. It just struck me as too much. I am, however, intrigued by their hypothesis that Voldemort attempted to kill Harry before James and Lily were killed.

[Schlubalybub]

some of the theories were interesting. but i dont care what YEAR it was in!

[purplehawk]

some of the theories were interesting. but i dont care what YEAR it was in!

Neither did I! :lol:

[jasper]

Now someone points out the spell Voldemort cast to kill Harry did NOT come out of his wand in the graveyard!!! I am almost speechless. I've always thought Voldemort killed James then Lily, or Lily then James, and then tried to kill Harry. If that is fact, that backfired Avada Kadavra should have shown up in the cemetery before either of Harry's parents!

The absence of the echo of that spell from Voldemort's wand does seem to indicate Voldemort somehow tried to kill Harry first. If that is true, how could the "Ugly Baby" Voldemort use his wand to kill James and Lily? (I loved that phrase)! Which begs the question: who did kill them?

I always assumed, since we know Lily sacrificed to save Harry, that she stepped in front of the spell. That way, I don't see a contradiction
in the reverse order where Lily comes, and she says, Hang on for your father.

At the time of her death, Voldy had just killed James, then Voldy comes in where she is and tells her, "Stand aside you silly girl" and she pleads; No, not Harry. Voldy takes a shot at Harry and she steps in front of it or (through whatever counter-charm) turns it so it hits her, transfigures herself into a sheild, or something. We've been told by fake-Moody-Crouch Jr. that the AK spell can't be blocked, so it hits Harry anyway, but the effect isn't as intended because of what Lily does. Blam, it bounces. Poof goes Voldy.

[Schlubalybub]

i wasnt particularly bothered bout the order lily and James came outta the wand either!

[FuruiousThird]

Oh man I just thought of something! Right before Voldemort gave the command to kill Cedric Harry's scar was burning with pain. When avada kedavra went off Harry didn't know what was going on. What if he was the one that killed Cedric? What if Voldemort took advantage of their link and somehow forced Harry to do the job...?

This could explain Harry's loss of control during some parts of ootp

[purplehawk]

Ah... we've been merged into that ancient thread. :grumble:

FuruiousThird, Harry doesn't know how to do the Avada Kadavra. He has attempted only one of the Unforgiveable Curses and that didn't go off as he meant it to. Harry doesn't have the evil necessary to pull off those three curses. Also, Voldemort was not aware of the connection until midway through OotP.

[whizbang121]

The mods must be doing a lot of cleanup. I was a seveth year, (2,000 posts) for a bout 10 minutes and now I'm back to sixth. This happens when they delete old threads that we have posts on.

i wasnt particularly bothered bout the order lily and James came outta the wand either!

okay, well? :huh:

But, the order that spells came out of Voldemort's wand in the Priori Incantatem effect is the topic on this thread. So I guess we'll see you back at the prophesy thread? ;)

Oh man I just thought of something! Right before Voldemort gave the command to kill Cedric Harry's scar was burning with pain. When avada kedavra went off Harry didn't know what was going on. What if he was the one that killed Cedric? What if Voldemort took advantage of their link and somehow forced Harry to do the job...?

This could explain Harry's loss of control during some parts of ootp
Hmm....

But, in the Priori, Cedric did come out of Voldemort's wand, which was in Wormtail's hand when Cedric was killed. So, I doubt Harry killed Cedric.

[purplehawk]

Sorry about your lost posts, Whiz. I wonder if the mods are trying to introduce us to the effects of time turning gone amiss - as in when you and the Old Gray Mare come back, things ain't what they use'ta be?

I'm being altogether silly... sorry folks.

Are we allowed to cut-and-paste parts of the article here? With a link giving the other site full credit for the content?

[whizbang121]

Sorry about your lost posts, Whiz. I wonder if the mods are trying to introduce us to the effects of time turning gone amiss - as in when you and the Old Gray Mare come back, things ain't what they use'ta be?

Cleanup is good. As long as they don't take me off the chocolate frogs.......
:whistle:
I'm being altogether silly... sorry folks.
:lol: I can't concentrate today, either. Silliness reigns! And McNuggets. ;)


Are we allowed to cut-and-paste parts of the article here? With a link giving the other site full credit for the content?
I'm not sure. Maybe you could ask permission first? That's why I was cautious and just posted the link.

Did you realize we're in the Great Hall? Rather that spoilers?

Hey, I wonder if that's what all the cleanup is about. The spoiler policy ends soon, doesn't it?

[purplehawk]

Nope, didn't realize. Then, of course, I never know where I am here. It took me ages just to find my way back to the threads I am familiar with. Not sure I could have if it weren't for the email notifications. This is a huge forum!

Come to think of it, that explains why I didn't see this thread earlier. I've never been anywhere but those three boards at the top under Predictions and Theories.

Hey, I lost some posts, too!

[whizbang121]

I've just had a severe shocker this evening. (Thanks Whiz... :evil: )

Follow this link (http://www.hp-lexicon.org/timeline_potters-old.html) and please post your thoughts here!

I don't think I've felt quite so stupid in a long time. I knew there was something fishy about the order in which Lily and James came out of Voldemort's wand in the cemetery. In fact, I sent an email to the publisher and got the stock answer that it was a mistake and had been corrected in later editions. I have one book and one set of Jim Dale CDs each - one with Lily coming out first; the other with James first. I intended to be ready for either contingency.

Now someone points out the spell Voldemort cast to kill Harry did NOT come out of his wand in the graveyard!!! I am almost speechless. I've always thought Voldemort killed James then Lily, or Lily then James, and then tried to kill Harry. If that is fact, that backfired Avada Kadavra should have shown up in the cemetery before either of Harry's parents!

The absence of the echo of that spell from Voldemort's wand does seem to indicate Voldemort somehow tried to kill Harry first. If that is true, how could the "Ugly Baby" Voldemort use his wand to kill James and Lily? (I loved that phrase)! Which begs the question: who did kill them?

Following the same line of thought, why does Lupin seem surprised when in PoA Harry mentions he hears his father during Patronus lessons? "You heard James?"
he asks?

But James does come out of the wand. I'm going to go read it all again. :grumble:

[purplehawk]

Following the same line of thought, why does Lupin seem surprised when in PoA Harry mentions he hears his father during Patronus lessons? "You heard James?"
he asks?

But James does come out of the wand. I'm going to go read it all again. :grumble:

I just pulled Jim Dale's CDs out of the cabinet. I'm going to listen to them tonight.

You know, Lupin's query doesn't seem odd to me. Harry was just one year old when Voldemort attacked him and his parents. It strikes me as incredible that a one-year-old had a subconscious memory of that evening. I know he's had a few flashbacks early on - he remembered "green light " and was trying to equate the color with what he thought was the car crash that killed his parents in SS. Then, after Hagrid reached him on the little island and told him the story, he had a vague memory of high-pitched cackling laughter.

Think about your own earliest memories... Do they go back that far?

[whizbang121]

I just pulled Jim Dale's CDs out of the cabinet. I'm going to listen to them tonight.

You know, Lupin's query doesn't seem odd to me. Harry was just one year old when Voldemort attacked him and his parents. It strikes me as incredible that a one-year-old had a subconscious memory of that evening. I know he's had a few flashbacks early on - he remembered "green light " and was trying to equate the color with what he thought was the car crash that killed his parents in SS. Then, after Hagrid reached him on the little island and told him the story, he had a vague memory of high-pitched cackling laughter.

Think about your own earliest memories... Do they go back that far?

A few. It's like with Harry, though. Snippets.
A full event memory though, I was probably three, so ... no. But no ever tried to kill me or my family so maybe serene childhoods just aren't as memorable?

[ultimate sacrifice]

Well, could the shadows that come out only be prompted by a Priori Incantim (sp?) and could it be that only murders come out with a shadow like that. Someone who's physical life was taken by a curse from the wand? Maybe only murders/deaths come out during a priori incantum????

Then again, maybe Wormtail was there with Voldemort and Voldemort went after Harry and the curse backfired James and Lily were not dead yet. Maybe Wormtail killed them because they would reveal the truth about them. Maybe Wormtail was at the door and James would have opened the door for him and then Voldemort came in. Then Wormtail took Voldemorts wand and stored it somewhere and went to get it after he escaped from the shrieking shack.

Conjecture of course, nothing in canon to support my thoughts.

[jasper]

Following the same line of thought, why does Lupin seem surprised when in PoA Harry mentions he hears his father during Patronus lessons? "You heard James?"
he asks?


Is Lupin expressing surprise? I don't think it's surprise based on any knowledges of the order of events at Godrick Hollow that night. Lupin wouldn't know what happened there. I think he just exclaims that way when Harry mentions James- it just bursts out- not out of surprise, but longing. Lupin lost all his friends that night, and as a werewolf, he had few and depended on the ones he had. Who's voice would Lupin want most to hear, that he knows he will never hear again?

And then, after he says that, we (and Harry) know Lupin knew James, and we find out they were friends at school.

[purplehawk]

Well, could the shadows that come out only be prompted by a Priori Incantim (sp?) and could it be that only murders come out with a shadow like that. Someone who's physical life was taken by a curse from the wand? Maybe only murders/deaths come out during a priori incantum????

I don't think so... Wormtail's shiny new hand came out of the wand.

Then again, maybe Wormtail was there with Voldemort and Voldemort went after Harry and the curse backfired James and Lily were not dead yet. Maybe Wormtail killed them because they would reveal the truth about them. Maybe Wormtail was at the door and James would have opened the door for him and then Voldemort came in. Then Wormtail took Voldemorts wand and stored it somewhere and went to get it after he escaped from the shrieking shack.

I think it's highly likely Voldemort went to the Potter home with a full complement of death eaters - and not just Peter Pettigrew. One or more of them must have collected Voldemort's things - including the wand - after the curse backfired. Witness Lucious Malfoy having Voldemort's old diary in CoS. I highly doubt Voldemort just passed those things around as birthday gifts. No, I am not suggesting the diary was present in Godric's Hollow, but Voldemort had to live somewhere. I think wherever that somewhere was, perhaps the house in Little Hangleton, Malfoy and others took Voldemort's things from it for safekeeping (and a bit of evil).

Is Lupin expressing surprise? I don't think it's surprise based on any knowledges of the order of events at Godrick Hollow that night. Lupin wouldn't know what happened there. I think he just exclaims that way when Harry mentions James- it just bursts out- not out of surprise, but longing. Lupin lost all his friends that night, and as a werewolf, he had few and depended on the ones he had. Who's voice would Lupin want most to hear, that he knows he will never hear again?

This makes perfect sense. Lupin is a tragic character and his situation is made worse by the loss of Sirius. Those two more or less supported each other on Grimmaud Place and Sirius was much lonelier when Lupin was out doing work for the Order. Now it will be Lupin alone in that house. I think he will prove to be invaluable to Harry as they each grieve the loss of their friend and mentor.

[whizbang121]

Hmmmm......
Well, in PoA the characters did seem to be confused among themselves about who did what when on Oct 31-Nov 1, 1981.

It does seem the backfired curse should have come out of Voldemort's wand before Lily, then James. What if Voldemort didn't use his wand on Harry?

I have no idea what he might have used instead, but .... ????

Second thought. What if Lily did something to Voldemort's wand before she died?
:no: Nevermind. I don't like it either.

[ultimate sacrifice]

Oh yea, I forgot about Pettigrew's hand coming out. Well, so much for that theory...

Is this a mistake in canon? There are too many questions about the order of things on the night of Harry's parents death and Harry's attack and the Priori Incantim thing in the grave yard. After reading that artile on HPLexicon about the missing 24 hours, I have so many questions. I think I read somewhere at one time that JKR was unhappy with GOF, she felt like she rushed it, trying to make everybody happy. That's why she took her time on OotP. Hopefully, she'll clear it up in book 6 for us. She never could have imagined that her books would have started all of this!

Our little online book club is quite a Phenomina! (Sp?) (By the way, is there a way to do a spell check before I post?)

[purplehawk]

I want to know who died first - James or Lily? This has been troubling me since GoF was first released. I have a copy with James coming first and telling Harry "Your mother's coming. She wants to see you."

I also have a copy of Lily coming first and telling Harry his father is coming.

It almost seems as though that question has to be answered definitively before any real second-guessing can be done.

If Lily died first, after James was stricken but not killed... and Voldemort tried the Avada Kadavra on Harry, not knowing James was still alive... and James aimed a curse at Voldemort just as Voldemort aimed at Harry... and James' curse deflected Voldemort's curse or collided with Voldemort at the same time Lily's "shield" rebounded Voldemort's curse at Voldemort himself...

Well, shoot. That wouldn't work either, because Voldemort wouldn't have been able to kill James - unless one of the death eaters picked up Voldemort's wand and used to do so.

This is driving me crazy.

[jasper]

I want to know who died first - James or Lily? This has been troubling me since GoF was first released. I have a copy with James coming first and telling Harry "Your mother's coming. She wants to see you."

I also have a copy of Lily coming first and telling Harry his father is coming.

It almost seems as though that question has to be answered definitively before any real second-guessing can be done.

If Lily died first, after James was stricken but not killed... and Voldemort tried the Avada Kadavra on Harry, not knowing James was still alive... and James aimed a curse at Voldemort just as Voldemort aimed at Harry... and James' curse deflected Voldemort's curse or collided with Voldemort at the same time Lily's "shield" rebounded Voldemort's curse at Voldemort himself...

Well, shoot. That wouldn't work either, because Voldemort wouldn't have been able to kill James - unless one of the death eaters picked up Voldemort's wand and used to do so.

This is driving me crazy.

What's happening in the grave yard duel scene is the wand is caughing up its spells in reverse order. So the order the victims died and who cast the individual spells can't be told with certainty from that scene.

But I thought from Harry's dementor induced memories that it was clear James struggled with Voldemort first (before Lily) and got hit with the AK- he wouldn't be stricken and not killed, as it was AK, after all.

[purplehawk]

What's happening in the grave yard duel scene is the wand is caughing up its spells in reverse order. So the order the victims died and who cast the individual spells can't be told with certainty from that scene.

But I thought from Harry's dementor induced memories that it was clear James struggled with Voldemort first (before Lily) and got hit with the AK- he wouldn't be stricken and not killed, as it was AK, after all.

If that's the case (the reverse order bit), then Lily died first - which makes a lie of what Voldemort told Harry in SS/PS and what we've been led to believe.

With the dementors, Harry heard Lily's voice much earlier than James's. I dunno if that's relevant or not, but he was pretty well into the school year before he heard James calling "Lily, take Harry and go! It's him! Go! Run! I'll hold him off - " That certainly seems to indicate James at least confronted Voldemort first - but it doesn't shed any light on which of them was stricken first.

[jasper]

If that's the case (the reverse order bit), then Lily died first - which makes a lie of what Voldemort told Harry in SS/PS and what we've been led to believe.

With the dementors, Harry heard Lily's voice much earlier than James's. I dunno if that's relevant or not, but he was pretty well into the school year before he heard James calling "Lily, take Harry and go! It's him! Go! Run! I'll hold him off - " That certainly seems to indicate James at least confronted Voldemort first - but it doesn't shed any light on which of them was stricken first.


Right. At first Harry is hearing Lily. Later when he is hearing James, I interpreted that to mean he is remembering farther back. Probably only minutes farther back. But he's getting more of the memory. If he was listening to a tape of what happeded, at first it is only wound back to where Lily is pleading and screaming. Later it gets wound back as far as the part where James speaks -- then plays back through Lily.

Voldemort says to Harry in SS/PS "I killed your father first, and he put up a courageous fight. . .but your mother needn't have died... she was protecting you. . . " Does that contradict the reverse order? And with AK, the first one stricken is the first one dead.

I understand earlier GoF editions have James' shadow say Lily's shadow is coming next, but I thought it was an actual error that was corrected in later printings to have Lily's shadow say, Harry, hold on, your father's coming- and so I thought that all that was cleared up at this point.

Maybe I don't undertstand what you mean?

[purplehawk]

Oh, you seem to understand fine, Jasper. I interpreted the passage in Lupin's office the same as you've done. But there remains the fact that confusion seems to reign as to which of Harry's parents died first. I visited Barnes and Noble over the weekend and went through every copy of GoF they had on the shelves. Every single one shows James coming out of Voldemort's wand first. And the print date is very close to the release of OotP!

Like you, I was told three years ago that it was a print error and that more recent editions had been corrected. I was foolish enough to go out and buy another copy, the supposedly corrected copy, only to discover this year that newer editions have reverted back to the James-Out-of-the-Wand-First version.

I wore out my cassette version of GoF (both of them) and the cassette player as well sometime last year, and bought the CD versions last Christmas. They, too, have James issuing from Voldemort's wand before Lily.

If this is a simple "mistake," it would seem that both Scholastic Press and Listening Library have a big problem.

[jasper]

Okay. That is pretty weird. Right along the lines of the last living ancestor vs. last living descendant thing for Tom Riddle the heir of Slytherin.

Possibly someone over at the publisher has been playing around with a time turner, eh?

[purplehawk]

Yep. I think so, too.

[fawkes5]

I think James died first, then Lily. Then Voldie went for Harry.

Uhmm, I had an argument.. but I just lost it! :banghead:

Anyway, let me get back to you....

[jen15poms]

Likely, the actual bodies (or echos) that came out of Voldemort's wand were the people that he murdered. The other spells that his wand did obviously did not show up during this Priori Incantatem. The thing that was of help to Harry was the fact that the people coming out of LV's wand allowed him to get to the portkey. Possibly, the spell only shows the prior spells that will be beneficial to the person that used the spell.

[AtomicGreymon]

As for how Peter might've been in possession of his wand, or Voldemort's wand, or both all the years he spent as a rat, Animagus transformations do seem to include the Robes and other clothing of the person doing it.

If Peter had wand(s) in his pocket, his transformation most likely would've included them as well.

[JoWilson]

I noticed that the AK curse that tried to kill Harry was missing, but after reading this thread maybe it isn't. I always assumed the was a curse for James, then one for Lily and then the one that went bad and hit Harry. Maybe there were only 2 AK that night, one for James and one for Harry that Lily intercepted. When Lily made the ultimate sacrifice to protect Harry, maybe the ancient magic of Love radiated from her, catching most of the AK curse meant for Harry. Part of it still hit him, giving him the scar. But perhaps it was this love radiating from Lily that took Voldemort's body away from him. Feelings of compassion forced him out of Harry's body in OotP, could it have been the love that stripped him of nearly everything that night?

I think this may have to do with the look of triumph in Dd's face, when he hears Harry's blood was part of Voldemort's rebirth. Harry's blood contains remnants of that great love, which Voldemort has never known and can't stand to be in contact with. I think that Voldemort's demise will come about becuase of love - not any spell cast.

[whizbang121]

Well, okay, we know that James died first. But where is the backfired curse? We hear the screams and shouts from the crutatius used on Harry and we see the phantom hand. Where is the death curse that backfired? Or wasn't there one? :huh:

[Trishg19]

Thats a good point where is the spell that was supposed to kill Harry? I've never noticed this before. Maybe in the coming books we will find a reason for this. Or perhaps it was just a mistake? Since the curse killed neither Harry or Voldemort how would JK protray this spell coming out from the wand?

[whizbang121]

It didn't kill either of them, but it did mark Harry and rip Voldemort from his body leaving him less than the meanest ghost. I wonder if baby Harry, seeing his mother murdered, had an emotional reaction. You know how Harry is when he gets emotional. I suspect there was no backfired curse from Voldemort's wand. I think Harry initiated the strike and it rebounded. I also think Harry blew up the house. Remember how his aunt wouldn't leave him home alone because she was afraid he would blow up the house?

[BabyNorbert]

Wait a minute.....didn't Dumbledore say that Cedric was murdered by Lord Voldemort at the end of the fourth book? Did he mean literally killed by him, or killed on his orders? I'm very confused about this, was it Voldemort that killed him, or Wormtail?

[BabyNorbert]

It didn't kill either of them, but it did mark Harry and rip Voldemort from his body leaving him less than the meanest ghost. I wonder if baby Harry, seeing his mother murdered, had an emotional reaction. You know how Harry is when he gets emotional. I suspect there was no backfired curse from Voldemort's wand. I think Harry initiated the strike and it rebounded. I also think Harry blew up the house. Remember how his aunt wouldn't leave him home alone because she was afraid he would blow up the house?

Harry didn't see his mother being killed. He was in his cot at the time. All he saw was a shot of green light. Otherwise he would have been able to see the Thestrals when he started Hogwarts.

[HarryPotter]

I think it was Voldemort's wand too... what I don't understand is why Harry keeps on saying that Voldemort killed Cedric, when it was Pettigrew who did it...

[DerHalfBlood]

I think its possible that Wormtail gave the wand to Lucius after the night the Potters were killed and that it is one of the things that would "embarass" Lucius if a raid were done at his house. And he just gave it back to Voldemort now that he's returned.

[the1hefeared]

But if Lucius Malfoy had the wand, how could Voldemort/Wormtail use it on Cedric? Voldemort reveals that no one came to him besides Wormtail, and the Death Eaters didn't come calling until Voldemort was 'reborn'.

Even if Lucius did have it, I doubt there is any way that it would have gotten back into Wormtail's hands...
Besides, why exactly give his master's wand to some pitiful wizard otherwise believed to be dead. And even if he knew Wormtail once worked for Voldemort, he still wouldn't easily give up that wand, especially if he knew what Wormtail was doing, or where Voldemort was. Think about it, all the Death eaters were power-hungry, and whoever helped Voldemort would probably get handsome favors from the Dark Lord himself, especially if it was Lucius (Wormtail probably didn't because of the way that he hid and faked his death by renouncing Voldemort, that and how pitiful and weak Wormtail was).

[Remus Black]

Who knows how he got it? Good job finding this.

[Darkillness]

Well, okay, we know that James died first. But where is the backfired curse? We hear the screams and shouts from the crutatius used on Harry and we see the phantom hand. Where is the death curse that backfired? Or wasn't there one? :huh:
Oh dang, that was what I was going to ask. I bet there's something to it. I first tried to explain it to myself that failed curses don't appear, but that really doesn't make sense since it's all the spells that the wand performed, meaning magic was attempted, regardless of whether it was done or not, since the wand only has partial control over that. So that leaves that there was either only 2 curses, or something else happened and Harry did something himself (unlikely) or Lily did something that know one knows about yet. I've always found it fishy that Dumbledore knew exactly how the curse was blocked anyway, since he wasn't there.

[SquibOnline]

Wormtail used voldemorts wand - thats the only explanation

[Steps4ever]

how can cedric and Frank came out from voldemort want when harry and voldemort duel (GoF)? wormtail kill cedric (how come the prisoners can get back their wand? like sirius, wormtail, and other death eaters? and how the voldemort wand can still with him?) Frank died that cause of fear, didn't he?

[I_Adore_Lupin]

How would a killing curse be 'shown' if it didn't work? The echoes that come from Voldemort's wand are all echoes of definite murder vitcims. The screams from the wands are evidence of the Cruciatus Curse. I don't know what could come out of the wand to show the Avada Kedavra curse that backfired off of Harry and onto Voldemort. I think the reason we don't see that curse among those coming from Voldemort's wand is that there isn't any tangible evidence (like echoes, screams, Wormtail's hand, etc). That would means there are loads of spells that couldn't be shown through Priori Incantatem because there is nothing to 'show' (like Alohomora, Accio, Evanesco, etc)

[whizbang121]

Well, maybe an echo of Voldemorts consciousness that was ripped from his body. I think my point is that, maybe it wasn't the AK backfiring that did Voldemort in. Maybe it was Harry.

[I_Adore_Lupin]

So, because it was Harry that did Voldemort in and not the curse, nothing came out of the wand? That would make sense if the Avada Kedavra curse was not the reason for Voldemort's first downfall (and Harry was the reason)

[Toonie_Lupin]

That was bugging me SO much. I was wondering why James came out of the wand first and not Lily. I didn't know it was a mistake that they corrected later. That's a load of my mind. ...well, unless I forgot it :p .

[ultimate sacrifice]

I have been pondering this idea....maybe the reason that there was no echo from Lord Voldemort's wand in the priori incantum is because LV didn't use his wand when he cast the AK at Harry.

We have chatted about this endlessly in the Mugglenet chat room and many of us believe that it is possible that Lord Voldemort did not use his wand for that curse....We all agree that the curse did not kill Harry because of Lily's willing sacrifice of herself for him. We started this conversation while trying to answer JKR's question...."Why didn't Lord Voldemort die"...and then went on to priori incantum from there.

It's worth considering...What if there were a duel and Lord Voldemort lost his wand and inadvertantly picked up James or Lily's wand to cast the AK...or what if someone else was there and they cast the AK at Harry or what if Lord Voldemort grabbed their wand to cast the AK???

We have come to the conclusion that the AK spell on Harry not showing up in the priori incantum is not an editing error...there is more to the story...:)!

[Fred Black]

Yes i certainly think there is way more to the whole idea. All spells are supposed to regurgitate. Peter's new arm appears, why wouldn't the body of Tom Riddle, or for that matter the spells he used to break Bertha Jorkins memory? The trouble you get into here is that not all of the ficitional magic is done to or on tangible objects. I think it would have been better if the arm hadn't appeared, then prudence would suggest that Priori Incantatum only reguritated the Avada, etc. God i should really be putting my brain somewhere else right now....