CoSForums Archive - Is Ron THAT Bad?

Hawkmoon

September 22nd, 2003, 11:28 pm

Hi, I am a spanish fan of HP, and I want to take part in this forums.
Sorry about my english, English is my third language and Im capable of understand it but unable to express in it. My grammar and vocabulary is AWFUL.

As my first post I would like to share a theory about the fifth book. It's a theory about the development of my favourite character, Ron.

Why I like Ron.
---------------
Because I first watched the movies. I liked them, but they are nothing special (IMO). Then I read the books and I simply loved them.

And the character which have major changes between movie and book is Ron. The Harry of movie and book is the same. The movie Ron is dumber, pasive in action scenes and is there only to provide comedy relief. The Ron in the books is a more fleshed character and I liked it bc of that.

I dont want to give the impresion that I think I am reading The Ron Weasley adventures or something like that. Ron is a sidekick, a character whose function in the books is provide comedy relief. But I like the boy, so I followed his steps in the books with attention and I found something peculiar in the last one.

The Chosen Ron.
---------------
Ok. Everybody expected Harry to be prefect. But Dumbledore choses Ron. The twins make laugh of him. Harry feels jealousy and everybody noticed it. Hermione asked if there was a mistake. Kingsley asked in front of Ron and his family why Dumbledore did'nt choose Harry as a Prefect. And Ron?.
Well, I think it hadled the situation in a perfect way. He downgrades the importance of the badge to Harry, to prevent this to be an obstacle between them. At the beginning of term, we see Ron acting as a incompetent prefect (oi, midgets, firewiskey and all), but, at the middle of the year, references of Ron as prefect dissapear. We know Ron goes on prefect duties but we dont know how was doing things. Why?

Posibilities.

1.- Ron is still a bad prefect. He is rude and irresponsible through the whole year.

2.- The prefect responsabilities is something Ron was not expecting. At the beginning of term, he tries to do the prefect job acting as always did. Ron is used to provide comedy relief, and if there aren't references to Ron as a prefect in the second half of the book,maybe it's because his behavior is not funny. Maybe because he is doing things right.

Also Ron's attitude at the twins through the year. This is the worst aspect of Ron in the book and is something he needs to work with. But its something identical to the behavior of Lupin in the pensieve when James and Sirius were bullying Snape. Lupin worked on it and it's a cool character. Why not Ron?.

And at the end we get the answer . Dumbledore told Harry that he didnt chose him as prefect because he was too much responsability.

Posibilities.

1.- Ron is a leftover. A Stand by. He is not worthy to be a prefect. The twins were right when they were making fun of Ron at the beginning. Harry was right to be upset when Ron was named prefect instead of him. Hermione and Kingsley were not rude, they were right, it was a mistake.

2.- What Dumbledore said at the end means nothing. There are five boys in Griffindors fifth year dormitory. Dumbledore told Harry the reason why he cannot be a prefect but THERE MUST BE A GOOD REASON TO NAME RON A PREFECT. And these reason must be related with Ron, nothing of the sort of "because he is Harry's friend".

Ronaldinho.
-----------
Well, Ron as a quidditch player is , for me, the way JKR choses to show us Ron's problems and his potential. He failed in the first matches, when the Slytherins were humiliating him with their song. And he succeeded at the end, when he thought "I Can do this". He gets over his problems and show to the school he can be a good player. To the school, but no to us. Because Harry was not at the match.
Am I the only one who found the way JKR presents this part of the story very strange?. Ron is, I suppose, one of the main secondary characters. This part of the story is about how a character can overcome his fears (lack of self confidence) and succeed (I can do this). We know first hand the humiliation of Ron at the first match with all detail. But the shining moment is eluded. We see him at the end of the match, bearied by the Griffindors and with the cup in his hands. Why?

Posibilities.

1.- Ron is still a bad quidditch player. Maybe the rest of the Grifindors tried to cheer him at the end. When he was talking about the saves he did, he was inventing these stories, as he did after the second Triwizard Tournament Test.

2.- Ron is a good player after he succeded en overcome his lack of confidence.

We will never know until book 6

Qui Gon Ron.
------------
How about Ron as a wizard through the year?. We have the DA and scenes in wich we see how other students were learning defensive magic. We get references of Cho, Dean Thomas and Luna in this aspect of the book. But.. Ron? the only mention we got about Ron in the DA is when he says he disarmed Hermione three times (and she says he did it only two). And that's it. No patronus, no spells, nothing.
Later Ron gets involved in two magical fights. One with the Inquisitorial squad and another with Death Eaters in the DOm. And in both fights Ron is off the plane. Why?

1.- Ron is a horrible wizard. He is unable to cast a spell and he needs to learn how to fight from Harry. Maybe in both fights he did nothing but act like a coward. His wounds at the end were self inflicted

2.- Ron is a competent wizard. We have seen Ron casting spells in previous books outside the class. He trained in book 4 with Harry and not only as a target for Harrys jinxes. The book specificaly states that both Ron AND Hermione practiced with Harry all the jinxes of the textbook. Also in GOF it is stated that the protective magic the students have is protection against lesser jinxes. Maybe in the DOM Ron was hitted by a heavy curse and it was unable to protect himself.

Recapitulation.
---------------
What Im trying to say is that the character of Ron is hiding from us through the whole book. Ron is there but we dont know how is handling things through the year.

Ok, Ron is a bad wizard?. Why not to show us?. Trying to cast a spell and failing. Unable to summon smoke in the patronus class. Acting cowardly in both fights. Being a bad keeper of quidditch , making saves with pure luck.
He is a bad prefect through the whole year?. Why not a scene with a student questioning his autority, or Hermione nagging him about his lack of responsability in prefect duties at the end of term?.

Ron is a good wizard?. Again, Why not to show us?. If the autor wrote the fight in the DOM with Ron fighting with valor as Hermione or Neville but being hit with a curse as they did.... But she didnt. Why?.

MY THEORY
---------

I feel that in the next books there will be a breaking of the trio, like in POA and GOF. One member of the Trio will have a fallout. IN Poa Hermione had this fallout with both boys. In Gof Ron had his time of rupture. And Its the time for the other part of the trio. I Think in the next book HARRY will have a big quarrel with his friends. And the way JKR handle the development of Ron in this book will be of significance.

I'm feeling that there is some tension growing between the characters of Ron and Harry through the book. Ron , IMO, is over his jealousy of Harry. The Ron of the GOF , if Harry shouted at him the way he does through all fifth year, would reply without thinking of the consecuences. And I like how this Ron handles the situation with Harry with the Prefect Badge. But I had the feeling that he is bottling up angryness at Harry ,for the way he treats him and Hermione through the entire book. He will help Harry if he needs him and be loyal to harry, but he will be distant. Did anyone notice that Harry NEVER makes an apologice at his friends after his continuous explosions of anger?.

Alas Harry. Look at this scene after Ron had received his prefect badge.

"Harry opened his eyes and stared through his fingers at the wardrobe's clawed feet, remembering what Fred had said: "No one in their right mind would make Ron a prefect".
Harry gave a small snort of laughter. A second later he felt sickened with himself.
Ron had not asked Dumbledore to give him the prefect badge. This was not Rons fault."

See?. this is Harrys first reaction the first time, as the book said, Ron had beaten Harry at something. For the first time he sees Ron as a rival.

I read some posts saying that Harrys reaction is much better than Ron's after the beginning of GOF. Wrong. Hermione said that Ron had feelings of jealousy at Harry before the Triwizard Tournament. The TWT was the last drop. And Harry was surprised bc he never realized Ron's feelings. Now, the Prefect badge is the first drop for Harry. And everybody notices it, even Malfoy in the train.

And the prefect badge is something Harry really didnt want. He had forgotten completely about prefects being chosen in the fifth year. What will happen if Ron gets something Harry really wants?.
Then he will question himself. Why he/she choose Ron instead of ME?. And he will think on Ron , the mediocre quidditch player, the pathetic Ron of the DOM incapacitated to defend himself. The Ron who gets a recognition that was mean for Harry , as Dumbledore said.

Well, this is my theory for why JKR hid the development of the character of Ron through the OOTP. We see things through HARRY's point of view. Harry didn't see Ron in his winning match. He did'nt know how was Ron's behavior in the battle at the end. He did'nt know how he handles the prefect duties. He saw Ron's bad moments and ignores the rest.

Also it is something that could be foreshadowed in one scene of the Philosopher's stone. The mirror scene.
Harry looked in the mirror. He sees his family.
Ron looked in the mirror . He sees himself as prefect (he gets the badge in this book), playing quidditch (as happens in this book), with the quidditch cup (again, it happens in this book), and as quidditch captain (who will be chosen in the next summer, and in OOTP Harry is banned from the team).
Harry tried to push Ron out and both boys begun to fight. They hear a noise and flee.
Couldnt this scene be a foreshadow that in the next book Harry and Ron will have a fight when Ron gets something both boys DESIRE?.

And about the mirror scene. I've read posts saying that in this scene Ron sees himself as a Head Boy with the House Cup. In the Spanish version of book and movie, Ron's vision ended as quidditch captain. Could someone explain this to me?. Is the spanish version wrong?

I think it is posible for the Harry of Book Five to have this feelings. Personally I thought it was arrogant. If Ron had an inferiority complex, Harry is the opposite. Hey, and this is not bashing him. I liked the Harry of this book, it is realistic for a teenager feel this way and have this behavior. It is understandable, but also something that needs to be corrected. And a fallout is a good way to make the character do some soulsearch.

Well, What do you think?.

EndlessDreamer

September 22nd, 2003, 11:44 pm

In the books and movie (in english) Ron sees himself as Head boy and Quidditch captain. And interesting I think I need to think about everything I just read, but you did put a lot of thought into that.

Dragonfly the 2nd

September 23rd, 2003, 12:32 am

chop

September 23rd, 2003, 12:53 am

Wellcome Hawkmoon,

I don't think your english is that bad, whose are your other languages? Seriously, you have put a lot of thought in this one and we have to consider carefully what can be hidden on it. A first thought as a possible fight starter is Ron starting to date Hermione and Harry feeling jealous and left apart.

Katy Kedevra

September 23rd, 2003, 12:55 am

:welcome: Hawkmoon. (Love your name)

I like the idea of Harry spending more time on his own this year. I do think he needs to be alone for a while and would be staying more by himself to come to terms with Sirius' death and then what the prophecy held. You make a lot of good points too. I definately agree with that. Nice theory and welcome to COS!!! (By the way, your English is great for being a third language)

Cat

September 23rd, 2003, 1:17 am

Ron is NOT comic relief. Not at all. No way.

The series itself is humorous. There are a lot of jokes and laughs, generally more subtle than Ron's occasional entertaining outbursts. In a series that is already humorous, there is no such thing as comic relief.

Ron is also much, much more than just a sidekick character. For one thing, he accepts this role and depresses over it. That is not typical sidekick behavior.

I don't think Ron was any more concealed than anybody else in OOTP. What about Dumbledore? Harry was wrapped up in himself after seeing Cedric die and Voldemort come to life. He didn't pay much attention to anybody when he wasn't rampaging at them. Not even his best friend. It wasn't just Ron, though.

Anyway, I like Ron and I'm horrified by the persona the film gives him. Ron can be a bit clueless and gawky, but he's not as much of an imbecile as the film would lead a person to believe. He has his role to play. He's not some lap dog, he's a young soldier, the warrior, the knight on the chess board. He's hasty to raise his fists, but he generally does it to defend the honour of somebody he cares about (including himself, which goes to show that his ego isn't below ground level yet). I also think that, if Hermione is the brains of the outfit, Ron must be the heart. He doesn't always say the right things or make the best decisions, but he's the most attentive to the feelings of his friends. While Hermione says 'Do the sensible thing', Ron says 'Do what you think is best'.

I don't agree that Ron will get what he wants from the image he saw in the Mirror of Erised. He might become Head Boy and he might become Quidditch captain. But is that really what he wants? I don't think so. That was just an example. What Ron wants is his moment to shine. The way I see it, he's already bettered his brothers in many ways. He's seen more action than they ever have and he's achieved things that they never have. What Ron needs, which is far more important than what he wants, is the grace and ability to accept all this about himself. Which position holds the most glory - being Head Boy or being Ron Weasley?

And I think he made an admirable prefect. Well, I don't think Harry would have done any better. Certainly not during this particular year.

EndlessDreamer

September 23rd, 2003, 1:26 am

I honestly didnt see this horrible portrayle (i can't spell) of Ron in the films. I actually thought it was quite good, maybe I don't pick up on things *shrugs* But I do agree with whoever said that if there is a falling out, it will be over Hermione and Ron dating, and maybe Harry keeping the prophecy to himself, even though he has good reason.

Baron_G

September 23rd, 2003, 2:22 am

Maybe book 5 was JKR's way of telling us that this is the worst Harry can get. Like you said, PoA it was Hermione, then Ron in GoF and now Harry. I don't think there will be any break in the trio at all. Someone might get into trouble or they all might voice their opinions and dissent; but eventually they'll work it out.

rons-lover

September 23rd, 2003, 2:50 am

Hi, I am a spanish fan of HP, and I want to take part in this forums.
Sorry about my english, English is my third language and Im capable of understand it but unable to express in it. My grammar and vocabulary is AWFUL.
For being your third language you speak it very well.! :D Don't get down on yourself.!

Ron is a sidekick, a character whose function in the books is provide comedy relief. But I like the boy, so I followed his steps in the books with attention and I found something peculiar in the last one.
I disagree with this. Well that Ron is a sidekick anyways. I think that he in the first book at first he seemed like one, but he did win that chess match and he's been starting to gradually come into his own. Maybe part of the reason Harry wasn't seeing as much of what Ron was up to is because he was jealous of Ron being more independent? Not only of Harry, but everyone else. If there was one person who deserved Prefect as much as Ron did it was Neville. They both needed a boosted confidence. And I am hoping next book we wont see less of Ron, more I hope. So he can develop more. Besides Harry was alone or wishing he was alone most of book 5. So he needs some companionship. And I would know... :p

Ok. Everybody expected Harry to be prefect. But Dumbledore choses Ron. The twins make laugh of him. Harry feels jealousy and everybody noticed it. Hermione asked if there was a mistake. Kingsley asked in front of Ron and his family why Dumbledore did'nt choose Harry as a Prefect. And Ron?.
It baffeled me that everyone in the book asummed Harry would be Prefect. I thought it was obvious he would'nt be prefect. Why? Well as Dumbledore said he had to much on his shoulders anyways!!! And not only that but there are better candidates. And since Harry has to much on his shoulders already, obviously he wasn't even a candidate. So Ron was picked as second best. Obviously he was picked because he was thought to be the best one.

Moonhawk, Very well said and thought out, even though I don't agree with it all, wonderful.! :D

hesdead-dealwithit

September 23rd, 2003, 3:07 am

If Hermione is the brains of the outfit, Ron must be the heart.

Exactly. The movies have destroyed Ron's character (I've heard - I haven't seen either of the first two and am not going to see any of them until I've read Book 7 so as not to corrupt my reading of HP), but he is NOT at all a weak, cowardly, stupid little kid. He can be awkward at times, but that's perfectly normal. I'm not the biggest fan of Ron - I like Hermione a lot more - but he is definitely an important character.

:welcome: to COS, Hawkmoon! That was an awesome first post, third language or thirtieth language. I especially liked the "Ronaldinho" title. I would have to go with #2 on each of your possibilities: Ron is not a bad prefect, just not Hermione; there is a reason Ron was chosen prefect, and anyone who's been reading at all carefully knows it; Ron is not a great Keeper but at worst a competent one; Ron is not a brillian wizard - but then again, neither is his father, who I think is the person most like him in HP.

Enkidu

September 23rd, 2003, 4:47 am

Fairydust

September 23rd, 2003, 5:48 am

If Hermione is the brains of the outfit, Ron must be the heart.

True that. Harry's the brawns. Hermione's the brains. Ron's the heart/emotions/dude that weras his heart on his sleeve.

I have to say that the movies did make Ron into a more comic relief character. He lost a lot of his lines to Hermione in the second movie and his facial expressions were made to be funny but they irked me. Rupert Grint did a good job though. Anyhoo, I'm getting sidetracked.

EDIT: Whoops! I forgot. :welcome:

EndlessDreamer

September 23rd, 2003, 10:31 pm

Meh I still felt Ron was played fine in the movies, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But I do agree Ron is the Heart of the trio, for the most part, and that's because I don't see Hermione as just the Brains, or Harry as just the Brawn. I mean maybe that's how they are the majority of the time, but I think we've seen them all demonstrate each characteristic at least once. Just what I think.

Katy Kedevra

September 23rd, 2003, 11:03 pm

periwinkle-blue

September 24th, 2003, 5:08 am

Hi, I am a spanish fan of HP, and I want to take part in this forums.
Sorry about my english, English is my third language and Im capable of understand it but unable to express in it. My grammar and vocabulary is AWFUL.

AWFUL? Are you kidding me?? :lol: You're great with that post! Wow... and to know that English is your third language, I really admire you for that.

(From Why I like Ron)

And the character which have major changes between movie and book is Ron. The Harry of movie and book is the same. The movie Ron is dumber, pasive in action scenes and is there only to provide comedy relief. The Ron in the books is a more fleshed character and I liked it bc of that.

Like Cat, heasdead-dealwithit and Fairydust, I agree with you that Ron's character had a noticeable slight of difference in both book and movie. Though I'm not sure whether 'dumber' is the word I'm looking for if asked what's the differences are. I'd say he's more numb and simpleton in the movies.

(From The Chosen Ron)

Well, I think it hadled the situation in a perfect way. He downgrades the importance of the badge to Harry, to prevent this to be an obstacle between them. At the beginning of term, we see Ron acting as a incompetent prefect (oi, midgets, firewiskey and all), but, at the middle of the year, references of Ron as prefect dissapear. We know Ron goes on prefect duties but we dont know how was doing things. Why?

Posibilities.

1.- Ron is still a bad prefect. He is rude and irresponsible through the whole year.

2.- The prefect responsabilities is something Ron was not expecting. At the beginning of term, he tries to do the prefect job acting as always did. Ron is used to provide comedy relief, and if there aren't references to Ron as a prefect in the second half of the book,maybe it's because his behavior is not funny. Maybe because he is doing things right.

Also Ron's attitude at the twins through the year. This is the worst aspect of Ron in the book and is something he needs to work with. But its something identical to the behavior of Lupin in the pensieve when James and Sirius were bullying Snape. Lupin worked on it and it's a cool character. Why not Ron?.

I agree on how Ron downgrades the importance of the badge to Harry, well at least not in front of Harry, just to prevent the uncomfortable feelings between both of them.

I can't really see Ron in the first possibility, Ron can be sarcastic sometimes, but I don't think he's rude and irresponsible throughout the year. I mean, Hermione would have his ears if he's being rude and irresponsible all year long. I'm sure if that's the case, JKR might at least hinted some irritation from Hermione regarding this issue, and Hermione would've said something while she's scolding Ron about closing one eye when the twins sell their joke trinkets.

I'd say the prefect duties are not that important enough for JKR to report in the books on once in awhile occasion. It's like the hygenic issue, the 'why didn't JKR wrote about them going to the bathroom or having a shower' kind of information. There's no room enough to write all that. Comparison to Lupin might've been a tad different, Lupin was alone in his conscience at that moment, in Ron's case, we know Hermione wouldn't let Ron off without at least shouting at him to do the right way.

And at the end we get the answer . Dumbledore told Harry that he didnt chose him as prefect because he was too much responsability.

Posibilities.

1.- Ron is a leftover. A Stand by. He is not worthy to be a prefect. The twins were right when they were making fun of Ron at the beginning. Harry was right to be upset when Ron was named prefect instead of him. Hermione and Kingsley were not rude, they were right, it was a mistake.

2.- What Dumbledore said at the end means nothing. There are five boys in Griffindors fifth year dormitory. Dumbledore told Harry the reason why he cannot be a prefect but THERE MUST BE A GOOD REASON TO NAME RON A PREFECT. And these reason must be related with Ron, nothing of the sort of "because he is Harry's friend".

Again, possibility 1 is not what I imagine even after Dumbledore told Harry why he didn't choose him as prefect. Those reactions from the twins, Harry being upset, Hermione and Kingsley being rather blunt with their words, well those reactions are kind of expected in situation when Ron got the prefect title, aren't they? It's like the natural thing to question from a reader's point of view because JKR didn't really polish Ron's character to the fullest.

And for the second possibility, now that hits the mark closer to home when I finished reading OotP. Why not Seamus or Dean Thomas as prefects? Both of them were not portrayed as that incompetent in the past series, right?

Again, we have to look at the Weasley's quality as a Gryffindor. Each of the known members of the Weasley family was or is in Gryffindor. During Lord Voldermort's rise 15 years earlier Arthur Weasley seemed to work tirelessly to fight against the dark lord. And Molly didn't hesitate the least when Dumbledore trusted her with the task about reviving the Order of Phoenix at the end of GoF. Which showed agreat deal of valor and loyalty that runs in the family. Now we might not agree on Percy's attitude, but Percy hold on to his choice passionately, which means another trait of determination. Incidently Ron too, have that kind of determined, admirable loyalty, not only to Harry and his friends, but also to Hogwarts as a whole. Now that's the traits I think most likely why Dumbledore chose him to be prefect instead of Seamus, Dean, and Neville (aside from Harry who has tremendous responsibilities as indicated by the headmaster).

(From Ronaldinho.)

Am I the only one who found the way JKR presents this part of the story very strange?. Ron is, I suppose, one of the main secondary characters. This part of the story is about how a character can overcome his fears (lack of self confidence) and succeed (I can do this). We know first hand the humiliation of Ron at the first match with all detail. But the shining moment is eluded. We see him at the end of the match, bearied by the Griffindors and with the cup in his hands. Why?

Posibilities.

1.- Ron is still a bad quidditch player. Maybe the rest of the Grifindors tried to cheer him at the end. When he was talking about the saves he did, he was inventing these stories, as he did after the second Triwizard Tournament Test.

2.- Ron is a good player after he succeded en overcome his lack of confidence.

We will never know until book 6

Amusingly, from my point of view, Ron is not a good nor he is a bad quidditch player. In fact, from what I perceived during reading OotP, Ron is still at the average-okay stage. I imagined that when he saved his first goal, that incited the 'hey, I can do this' feeling. Which boosted his confidence level one notch higher. And with the cheering from the spectators, it's like adding fuel to the fire. Confidence is what drove Ron to excel in Quidditch, with that his skills gain a little more sharpening.

(From Qui Gon Ron.)

How about Ron as a wizard through the year?. We have the DA and scenes in wich we see how other students were learning defensive magic. We get references of Cho, Dean Thomas and Luna in this aspect of the book. But.. Ron? the only mention we got about Ron in the DA is when he says he disarmed Hermione three times (and she says he did it only two). And that's it. No patronus, no spells, nothing.
Later Ron gets involved in two magical fights. One with the Inquisitorial squad and another with Death Eaters in the DOm. And in both fights Ron is off the plane. Why?

1.- Ron is a horrible wizard. He is unable to cast a spell and he needs to learn how to fight from Harry. Maybe in both fights he did nothing but act like a coward. His wounds at the end were self inflicted

2.- Ron is a competent wizard. We have seen Ron casting spells in previous books outside the class. He trained in book 4 with Harry and not only as a target for Harrys jinxes. The book specificaly states that both Ron AND Hermione practiced with Harry all the jinxes of the textbook. Also in GOF it is stated that the protective magic the students have is protection against lesser jinxes. Maybe in the DOM Ron was hitted by a heavy curse and it was unable to protect himself.

:lol: at the Qui Gon title!

Now again, I'm going to go with in-between possibility. Ron, from my point of view, is not outstanding nor is he a horrible wizard. He's not exceptionally good with spells either, but like Neville, he works hard to achieve the above average standard, not really shining at the end of OotP, but he's getting on pretty well in that department I hope.

(From My Theory)

I feel that in the next books there will be a breaking of the trio, like in POA and GOF. One member of the Trio will have a fallout. IN Poa Hermione had this fallout with both boys. In Gof Ron had his time of rupture. And Its the time for the other part of the trio. I Think in the next book HARRY will have a big quarrel with his friends. And the way JKR handle the development of Ron in this book will be of significance.

Isn't Harry having a near fall-out with Ron and Hermione throughout OotP?

I'm feeling that there is some tension growing between the characters of Ron and Harry through the book. Ron , IMO, is over his jealousy of Harry. The Ron of the GOF , if Harry shouted at him the way he does through all fifth year, would reply without thinking of the consecuences. And I like how this Ron handles the situation with Harry with the Prefect Badge. But I had the feeling that he is bottling up angryness at Harry ,for the way he treats him and Hermione through the entire book. He will help Harry if he needs him and be loyal to harry, but he will be distant. Did anyone notice that Harry NEVER makes an apologice at his friends after his continuous explosions of anger?.

Ron in my opinion, has attained a mature perspective towards the whole issue, thus I can't quite grasp the idea of him bottling his anger at Harry. Unlike Hermione or Harry, Ron grew up in a wizarding world, and he gains a lot in perspectives of how one bad situation in the wizarding world and its consequences could happened, in short and long term, rather than the second-hand information Hermione perceived from books and stuff nor the one-to-one battles Harry had. And remember, Dumbledore did approach him and Hermione first at the beginning of summer about not worrying Harry about the Order of the Phoenix.

Contradictory, Ron wouldn't be distant in my opinion, why? Because at the end of GoF, Ron witnessed how his friend's anguish despair when Cedric died in front of Harry's eyes. Ron is not that insensitive, and like Cat said, he's the heart of the trio. All through OotP, Ron knew Harry would be bothered by him being made prefect, and such, Ron would know this feeling to understand what is Harry's thinking and can predict his reactions, rather than being perplexed at his bitter behavior all throughout the series. And the fact that Harry's closest thing to a family, his Godfather died, further made me sure that Ron would never abandon Harry in a fit of rage over Harry's attitude.

I think it is posible for the Harry of Book Five to have this feelings. Personally I thought it was arrogant. If Ron had an inferiority complex, Harry is the opposite. Hey, and this is not bashing him. I liked the Harry of this book, it is realistic for a teenager feel this way and have this behavior. It is understandable, but also something that needs to be corrected. And a fallout is a good way to make the character do some soulsearch.

A fallout maybe a good way for Harry to do some soulsearching, but I don't think JKR would apply the same concept for her characters to develop some sort of conscience to achieve that. Perhaps Harry would come to his senses without experiencing a fallout, perhaps not. But what I sens is that Ron has become a sensible character to understand what's going on around him more firmly than the other two.

:) Excellent observations, Hawkmoon, excellent :) And :welcome: to the forums!

Hawkmoon

September 24th, 2003, 10:24 am

Well, Thanks for all the Wellcomes in this thread!.

First I want to explain why i think the Ron of the movies is so different from the Ron of the books.

1.- Dumber.
In the first two books Ron is a guide to the wizarding world for Harry and Hermione. In the movies, his dialogs in this area are given to Hagrid and Hermione, like the mudblood explanation at the beginning of COS.

Also, sometimes Ron is the first one to notice something, maybe because he is grown in a wizarding family. Examples, he is the first to notice that the mirror of Erised and Riddle's diary are dangerous. These scenes are cut from the movie.

2.- More rude.

Also, Ron's dialogs are rewritten to show us a more rude Ron, especially at Hermione. Example: before the troll incident in PS. In the book Ron make a comment at Harry about Hermione in normal voice. Hermione hear it because she was just behind them. In the movie Ron was laughing with the rest of the class about Hermione. Another example is Ron's reaction in COS when Hermione is transformed into a cat. In the books he gets scared, in the movie he laughs at her.

3.- Passive in action scenes.
There are many examples. Lets look the Troll incident.
Book. Harry and Ron enter in the bathroom, Hermione was paralized with fear. Ron atracted the trolls attention and Harry tries to take Hermione out of the bathroom. Ron slids to the ground, Harry jumps to the trolls head. Ron takes his wand and cast the spell. It works.
Movie. Hermione is not paralized, she tries to scape but slids to the ground. Harry jumps to the trolls head. Ron?. HE IS PARALIZED. Harry makes Ron come into his senses with a shout: DO SOMETHING!. Ron awakens and says something like .. Do, what?. And Hermione tells him what to do: cast the spell. Ron do what Hermy says and it works.
And there are more scenes like this one, rewritten to show us a more pasive character.

Why this difference?. Well, I get the answer when I read GOF. Here it is, a Ron dumber, pasive and rude. Rons character is rewritten in the movies (scripts aproved by the autor) to fit the description of Ron in the last two books, where Ron is shown with a serious problem with his self confidence.
Why the Ron in OOTP has this reaction when the Slytherins were chanting their song at him?. Ron has been in dangerous situations, has faced his worst fear (a giant spider). He must be, at this point of the story , above this problem. But he is not.

I think there is a interview with the autor in wich JKR talks about the characters. This quote is used in the love thread because it mentions something like "poor Ginny, Harry dating girls under her nose". But in this quote, that i didnt read in full context, talks about Ron and Harry and I think is talking about them in Gof. She says something like "Harry talks to Ron like he has al the weight of the world above his shoulders", and Ron she "wish I had cut him more lazy". I think that if the author could rewrite the books, the Ron of the first two will fit the description in the movies. Maybe to make Ron's jealousy in the GOF more beliable. IMO Ron in the first three books is a hero of his own and has received the same public recognition Harry has at the end of his first adventures.

Well, that is my opinion about the diferences between book and movie with this character. What do you think?

FlyingPhoenix

September 24th, 2003, 5:26 pm

Hawkmoon :welcome: I like your view and I'm impressed by your english. Its pretty good at least a lot better as mine.

To your theory I do agree with you that this can lead to another fall out between Harry and Ron. You say it right about the mirror scene we see Harrys deepest desire is an own family. Now Ron has it. Ron deepest desire (this say what he really want) is to be Captian, HeadBoy, Prefect, Housechampion, quiditchchampion. Now half of it he has got in OotP.

What did get Harry? The only thing what was his family did died. He didn't get anything in this book. Thats the problem.

You know Hawkmoon you hit really an issuse which I didn't thought of. This could be interesting by the way I do think Harry would have a right to be jealousy this I did wonder in GoF that he wasn't jealousy.
Ron get or has practiculary both his deepest desire and Harrys this can't be go well not if Ron take this for granted and this is what he did in OotP

About the film Ron.
You right he is that different. He appears even in some points to nice now we face PoA how will this work if in PS/SS or COS wasn't really this bickering between Ron and Hermione.

I really hope to read more from you. You have an interesting view.

Cat

September 24th, 2003, 11:12 pm

Well, that is my opinion about the diferences between book and movie with this character. What do you think?

I didn't think Ron's character in the film was more rude. I thought it wasn't rude enough. He's a cheeky, chirpy chappie in the films, where he's a hormonal teenage boy (prone to the sullens) in the books. I prefer the hormonal Ron. The Ron in the films is the equivalent of the lovable chimney-sweep... nothing could be more annoying...

Sometimes its not that bad, though. Sometimes he's almost Ron.

I also don't think that the movie versions showed the 'correct' version of Ron. Ron is a jealous character who has a lot of mood swings (but probably not so many as Harry). But being jealous and moody doesn't mean being completely dim and weedy like he is the films. Perfectly capable people, people who have fought much bigger battles, can lose their heads to jealousy. The little red-haired boy we saw on the Hogwarts Express in the first book was already on the tracks to becoming to boy he is in the fifth book.

jasper

September 24th, 2003, 11:57 pm

Great post all the way through. Here's the part that stuck in my mind:

And the prefect badge is something Harry really didnt want. He had forgotten completely about prefects being chosen in the fifth year. What will happen if Ron gets something Harry really wants?.
Then he will question himself. Why he/she choose Ron instead of ME?. And he will think on Ron , the mediocre quidditch player, the pathetic Ron of the DOM incapacitated to defend himself. The Ron who gets a recognition that was mean for Harry , as Dumbledore said.

I think they could fall out over Hermione. Harry has said plenty of times, "Hermione is not my girlfriend." But if it sinks in to Harry (and Ron) that she is actually Ron's girlfriend, then he could get jealous. Here is something that Harry never thought he wanted- a relationship with Hermione (like he wasn't even thinking of being prefect) If he sees she chooses Ron, he might start thinking: why not me? If we're going to continue with Harry living the typical teen angst, then this could easily happen.

I don't know. I think Harry will distance himself from both Ron and Hermione. So they may not have much plot time to actually fight.

Eleanor12

September 25th, 2003, 12:48 am

Yeah you did. And what I get out of the Mirror of Erised scene is that Ron will be Head Boy and Quidditch Captain and Harry will die at the end and be with his family...

Maybe JKR is hiding Ron from us so that when she goes back and writes Ron's series we'll see lots of things that we didn't see before...?

OH I hope not. I don't want Harry to die and be with his family.

Ooh, but if she wrote Ron's series that'd be cool. It's interesting, I've thought a lot about who Hermione really is, but just sort of let Ron be. but that first post in this thread really made me think. Thank you.

Morgan LeFay

September 25th, 2003, 3:30 pm

Hawkmoon :welcome: I like your view and I'm impressed by your english. Its pretty good at least a lot better as mine.

To your theory I do agree with you that this can lead to another fall out between Harry and Ron. You say it right about the mirror scene we see Harrys deepest desire is an own family. Now Ron has it. Ron deepest desire (this say what he really want) is to be Captian, HeadBoy, Prefect, Housechampion, quiditchchampion. Now half of it he has got in OotP.

What did get Harry? The only thing what was his family did died. He didn't get anything in this book. Thats the problem.

You know Hawkmoon you hit really an issuse which I didn't thought of. This could be interesting by the way I do think Harry would have a right to be jealousy this I did wonder in GoF that he wasn't jealousy.
Ron get or has practiculary both his deepest desire and Harrys this can't be go well not if Ron take this for granted and this is what he did in OotP

Harry is rich, but didn't make it on his own. He lost his family. He lost his seeker-position. He lost his girlfriend, his emotional-side of life. He propably'll lost his friend Hermione, cause Ron will start dating her. He lost the oportunity to be a prefect. Finally, he've just lost Sirius, his mix of father and older brother. It is definately the hardest time for Harry.

Ron is getting things Harry've just lost. He has a potencial girlfriend - Hermione, he has a position in quidditch team. He is popular (good or bad, whatever), is a prefect, he has a family.

Harry is losing and Ron is getting. Ron's always been jelous. Why Harry isn't?

Ratta

September 25th, 2003, 10:29 pm

EndlessDreamer

September 25th, 2003, 11:51 pm

I'd like a Ron seriese. *sigh* That'd be soo cool!

GryffindorSeeker

September 26th, 2003, 12:29 am

Wow. Quite a post. :wow:

Sure, Ron wasn't to great of a prefect, but I didn't really expect him to be. If Harry was, I wouldn't be too sure on how well he would do on it, too. I personally thought that Ron's ignoring of his responsibility was rather funny. Managed to drive Hermione up the wall.

As for the trio breaking up... I can't exactly see it being permanent. I can see the fighting some, not talking to each other, but I don't think there will be a permanent one.

:welcome:

SnowyOwl

September 26th, 2003, 9:18 pm

Hmm...we only saw Ron struggling at the beginning of the year. As Hawkmoon said, we only see different duties mentioned, but never how Ron performs them. I think he was just fine. If he hadn't been, we would've heard about it from Hermione.
GryffindorSeeker, I don't think you can say that Ron ignored his duties. Ignoring means that you know your duty, but choose to not do it. The only time I can think of that might fall under that heading is when his brothers are using first year students to test their snackboxes. But then, I can also sympathize with Ron's reluctance to take a stand with his highly creative brothers.

Blah, fighting over Hermione? I certainly hope JK is not that sappy.

FlyingPhoenix

September 26th, 2003, 9:27 pm

Blah, fighting over Hermione? I certainly hope JK is not that sappy

Nah, not fighting about Hermione. Its rather that she is the one who give Harry a reason not to be jealousy. If you understand what I mean :lol:

Hawkmoon

September 26th, 2003, 11:57 pm

[QUOTE=FlyingPhoenix]Hawkmoon Hi, Flying Phoenix.
Thanks for your post , but I still think my english has a bad level.
And I have to disagree with your view about what the boys have as their deepest desire.
You said:
"... about the mirror scene we see Harrys deepest desire is an own family. Now Ron has it. Ron deepest desire (this say what he really want) is to be Captian, HeadBoy, Prefect, House champion, quiditch champion. Now half of it he has got in OotP.

What did get Harry? The only thing what was his family did died. He didn't get anything in this book. Thats the problem."

I really think that quidditch captain and head boy are not Ron's deepest desire. He sees himself as quidditch captain and Head Boy because what he really want is to be better than his brothers. His older brothers were :
1.- Bill = Head Boy
2.- Charlie = quidditch captain
3.- Percy = prefect and the best student of his year
4.- The twins = the most popular students of the school
So, when Ron sees himself in the mirror playing quidditch and being House champion this means that he wants to achieve alone what his older brothers acomplished one by one. Later in the book Dumbledore tells Harry that Ron was always under the shadow of his brothers and so he sees himself in the mirror alone and the best of the Wesley boys (non textual words, I am traslating the spanish version).

And this explains Ron's jealousy in book 4. He has been feeling drops of jealousy because he feels that Harry would surpass him and become what he wanted to be. Now in book 5, Ron is on the right way to achieve his dreams, as a prefect he could be head boy like his brother Bill, playing quidditch he can be captain as his brother Charlie (and it is hinted in the book, because they give him the robes of Oliver Wood), in the Owls exams he had the help of Hermione and he didnt get distracted as Harry so he can get a good number of OWls like Percy and after the final quidditch match he was popular in the school like the twins are.

Also notice that in every aspect of these , Ron starts with a bad step. He is a bad prefect at the beginning, he is a bad keeper in the first matches and he acts like a big head the day after the final match with his new popularity. But, as I said in the original post, we didnt get references of Ron as a bad prefect in the second half of the book, he shines in the final match, and except the day after this victory we didnt get references of Ron thinking he is a quidditch superstar (maybe his ego was deflated after he find that his friends didnt assist at the final match). And , more important than that, if Ron is making his dreams come true, I think this means that he has no reason to be jealous of Harry. All he has to do is keepin in the good work and he will get what he wants. I've a lot of faith in him!. :-)

Alas Harry, yes, his deepest desire is to have his own family. And he has it: since the first book there is a wizarding family that has practicaly adopted Harry as his own child. Harry spent nearly all the summers with them, he receives gifts from them (in fact exactly the same gifts that this family has for their children), this family is sometimes hinted as Harrys family in the books (like previous to the third test of the TWT in book 4, and when they visit the hospital in book 5). I am talking, of course, of the Wesleys. Mrs. Wesley acts as Harrys mother and the Wesley children play like Harrys brothers. Except the father figure, in the case of Harry this role come from Dumbledore.

In the books it is stated that more important than the birth is the choices you make in life. The Wesleys are not Harrys family by blood but they choose to be his family and they act in this way. I think , then , that Harry didnt need to feel jealousy at Ron bc Ron had a family and Harry didnt. The Wesleys are Harrys family and is obvious that Mrs. Wesleys sees Harry as a son. Remember the boggart at 12 GP?. Harrys death was in Mrs Wesleys vision of her worst fear. So all Harry has to do is realice that his familiy is around him since the first day.

Maybe I was reading too much in the mirror scene in book 1. Maybe the fight in this scene is foreshadowing Rons fallout in book 4, but the fight in book 1 starts because of Harry (he wanted to be in front of the mirror so he pushed Ron away) not Ron, as it happens in book 4. Maybe this fight is there only to show the danger with the mirror of Erised (dream about your desires instead of living to make them real is a bad option).

But I always had the feeling that book 1 is the key to the series, its little adventures foreshadow things that later happen in the next books, and some things that the characters said in it that seem to have no sense, had a different meaning in later books. Want an example?
Harry and Ron go to fight a monster that hides in the girls bathroom. Hermione cannot help them bc she is paralized. This is a resume of the troll incident in book 1, but its also a resume of the last part in Chamber of Secrets. Add Ginnys actitude in the station as Harrys fan (the crush in book 2), Hagrids mention that he is not allowed to use magic (explained in book 2), Malfoys mention about the children born in non wizarding families (fundamental in book 2). There they are, a lot of hints to book 2 dropped in book 1. If you want to search for references to book 3, I think you can find interesting paralels between Norbert, Hagrids dragon, and Buckbeak.

When I was talking about a fallout between Harry and his friends, I was thinking in one line in the scene in 12 GP: Harry shouting at Hermione and Ron:

"... I'VE HANDLED MORE THAN YOU TWO'VE EVER MANAGED AND DuMBLEDORE KNOWS IT WHO SAVED THE PHILOSOPHERS STONE? WHO GOT RID OF RIDDLE? WHO SAVED BOTH YOUR SKINS FROM THE DEMENTORS?"

When I read this I feel sick. I thought this reaction was totally stupid . I wished I could read Ron and Hermione repling something like... " WHO SAVED THE PHILOSOPHERS STONE?.
- Hey, mate, you know, YOU COULDNT SAVE THE STONE WITHOUT OUR HELP IN THE FINAL TRIALS !"

See?. I think that this line is not a exception in the book, Harrys actitude at his friends is like he feels superior to them. . If he lost his friends in a non permanent way (falling out from both) he can make some soulsearch and realize how much he needs them. Well, Harry is the hero and the main character, but I have always thought that he couldnt do the things he has done without the help and support of his friends.

Ah, I read about this Ron Wesley series and I think its a very bad idea. The thing I like most about the Harry Potter series is the suspense and the little hints dropped in the books for future stories and the twists in the argument. Where is the emotion in a Ron Wesley series if we all know what is going to happen?. Oh, wait, maybe its a joke... ;-)

phoenix_gurl

September 27th, 2003, 12:37 am

I really think that quidditch captain and head boy are not Ron's deepest desire. He sees himself as quidditch captain and Head Boy because what he really want is to be better than his brothers. His older brothers were :
1.- Bill = Head Boy
2.- Charlie = quidditch captain
3.- Percy = prefect and the best student of his year
4.- The twins = the most popular students of the school
So, when Ron sees himself in the mirror playing quidditch and being House champion this means that he wants to achieve alone what his older brothers acomplished one by one. Later in the book Dumbledore tells Harry that Ron was always under the shadow of his brothers and so he sees himself in the mirror alone and the best of the Wesley boys (non textual words, I am traslating the spanish version).

And this explains Ron's jealousy in book 4. He has been feeling drops of jealousy because he feels that Harry would surpass him and become what he wanted to be. Now in book 5, Ron is on the right way to achieve his dreams, as a prefect he could be head boy like his brother Bill, playing quidditch he can be captain as his brother Charlie (and it is hinted in the book, because they give him the robes of Oliver Wood), in the Owls exams he had the help of Hermione and he didnt get distracted as Harry so he can get a good number of OWls like Percy and after the final quidditch match he was popular in the school like the twins are.

When I was talking about a fallout between Harry and his friends, I was thinking in one line in the scene in 12 GP: Harry shouting at Hermione and Ron:

"... I'VE HANDLED MORE THAN YOU TWO'VE EVER MANAGED AND DuMBLEDORE KNOWS IT WHO SAVED THE PHILOSOPHERS STONE? WHO GOT RID OF RIDDLE? WHO SAVED BOTH YOUR SKINS FROM THE DEMENTORS?"

When I read this I feel sick. I thought this reaction was totally stupid . I wished I could read Ron and Hermione repling something like... " WHO SAVED THE PHILOSOPHERS STONE?.
- Hey, mate, you know, YOU COULDNT SAVE THE STONE WITHOUT OUR HELP IN THE FINAL TRIALS !"

See?. I think that this line is not a exception in the book, Harrys actitude at his friends is like he feels superior to them. . If he lost his friends in a non permanent way (falling out from both) he can make some soulsearch and realize how much he needs them. Well, Harry is the hero and the main character, but I have always thought that he couldnt do the things he has done without the help and support of his friends.

I agree with your first 2 paragraphs. That would explain why Ron wants all that. I also think that Harry's anger quote was a bit stupid, and i would think that it would be a good idea for Ron and Hermoine to shut him up and tell him that he needs them. He may have a fight with them later,(which i would hate, but it's possible). It would certainly make him realize he needs his friends, and that would open his eyes. I would be really depressing to witness the fight though. Harry has been through a lot though, and i think that may help to help him see that he needs his friends, and will help him be more mature, specially Sirius' Death. As to Ron, i have a feeling that once he knows the prophecy his jealosy will increase towards Harry, even though he will know Harry didn't pick that Destiny. You got me thinking that Ron may be more mysterious than we thought.

dorcasderr

September 27th, 2003, 1:02 am

Welcome Hawksmooon! Your theories are very well thought out. And I do think you are rught about the differences between the book Ron and the movie Ron.
I hope JKR develops Ron in a more positive way in the future books and doesn't allow him to be lazy, as someone posted earlier. And yes, Harry should realize
just how important his friends are to him and how he HAS a family, not only in the Weasleys but in the Order of the Phoenix as well.

EndlessDreamer

September 27th, 2003, 3:19 am

Eleanor12

September 27th, 2003, 4:05 pm

Everyones saying that Harry NEEDS his friends, when in reality Harry doesn't need them, not really. We don't know if Harry could have done everything he has on his own, BUT we do know he got along alright without friends for 10 years prior to finding out the truth. I think that as an individual Harry could still accomplish alot, and that sometimes the friends just add to everything, I mean he doesn't get stuff off his chest anyways, and feels more burdened because he wants to protect them. Anyways I think I've hit rambling, hope that makes sense

I think you make a good point there. OOh, besides, even if he couldn't save the world without Hermione and Ron, he could survive and be functional. Like you said, he doesn't get stuff off his chest anyways. You say he feels burdened. He may feel guilty, to.

FlyingPhoenix

September 27th, 2003, 4:37 pm

So, when Ron sees himself in the mirror playing quidditch and being House champion this means that he wants to achieve alone what his older brothers acomplished one by one. Later in the book Dumbledore tells Harry that Ron was always under the shadow of his brothers and so he sees himself in the mirror alone and the best of the Wesley boys (non textual words, I am traslating the spanish version).

I did mean it like that. Off course isn't Rons desire to be headboy but to be without any shadow. All his brothers and friends do overshadow him. Make it difficukt for him to breath if you like.

And , more important than that, if Ron is making his dreams come true, I think this means that he has no reason to be jealous of Harry. All he has to do is keepin in the good work and he will get what he wants. I've a lot of faith in him!. :-)

Ron for sure not but Harry will have reason to be jealousy at Ron. I will explain it. Its the scene at 12G before christmas. You're right Harry has to accept the Weasleys are his family but he can't even if he wanted he can't because his own family overshadows this in the form off Voldemort. I believe as long Voldemort is alive Harry can't accept the Weasleys as his own family. Because everything what did happen in the past was connected to The Potters and what Harry had lost. As Mr. Weasley was attacked is it Harrys reaction which interesting he don't feel like a part of this family. If you look closely enough till GoF there was a growing path that Harry accept it but after GoF after Voldemort is back Harry moves away again.
The one who was really his family is now dead this again pulls Harry away from the Weasleys. This create jealousy by Harry that he feels alone though himself did move away from the Weasleys and to watch how Ron has his family find his own place so he isn't anymore overshadowed. You could say Harry did get the bad part of the fairy tale and Ron the shiny part. Its like you lurking how a happy family interact.
Thats again already in PS/SS this image how Harry is lurking from the distant almost from the shadow of the train. Its a mirroring scene for book6.

But I always had the feeling that book 1 is the key to the series, its little adventures foreshadow things that later happen in the next books, and some things that the characters said in it that seem to have no sense, had a different meaning in later books.

I believe you I see It just the same book1 is the key book. OotP is a key book too. In both books lay questions which will answered in book6 and 7.

"... I'VE HANDLED MORE THAN YOU TWO'VE EVER MANAGED AND DuMBLEDORE KNOWS IT WHO SAVED THE PHILOSOPHERS STONE? WHO GOT RID OF RIDDLE? WHO SAVED BOTH YOUR SKINS FROM THE DEMENTORS?"

Scary, heh? But I think big head is a Potter thing. Now seriously its nothing other as to ask "Why me!" only in different words. In other words why was he always alone in the end? I think this will change in book6.

Right Harrys deepest desire is to have a family?! Buts that isn't all he want love. Thats for what this scene is there. He want be overshadowed not stay alone in the end. Thats the very point Ron don't stay alone and won't but his deepest desire is to be independent. Harry's to be dependent by someone once in his live. This are two worlds which crashing against each other.

SnowyOwl

September 27th, 2003, 6:47 pm

I've never really placed much importance on the mirror of Erised in book 1--perhaps I should.

I would think a person's most desperate desire would change as they go through life. I'm not at all certain that Ron would see the same things anymore. Also, some talk about what was seen in the mirror as prophecy, rather than desire. Now Percy has the ambition to help his desires happen. Ron, on the other hand, does not seem to have that same kind of ambition.

Bottom line: I'm ambivalent about how much weight to give the Mirror of Erised scene in book 1.

Eleanor12

September 27th, 2003, 11:52 pm

I would think a person's most desperate desire would change as they go through life. I'm not at all certain that Ron would see the same things anymore..

good point.Things have changed a lot since the mirror of erised. And like you said, it's not prophecy.

EndlessDreamer

September 29th, 2003, 12:36 am

well, what would Ron want now then? What would his deepest desire be?

morgan le fay

September 29th, 2003, 12:41 am

hmm..... maybe now that he is a prefect and he has been somewhat of a quidditch success, maybe he still wants to be HB and win the Q. cup, now that hes had a taste of it. or, if i were him, what id most desire now that voldie is back in full power, is for my family to live safely and for none of my friends to be harmed, and for everything to return to peace just as before.

Katy Kedevra

September 29th, 2003, 3:01 am

I haven't placed a lot on the Mirror of Erised scene before either mainly because, as Dumbledore said, it is only their desires that they see. But when you think about it, Ron s getting everything he saw in that mirror and Harry is losing it. Although all the family members Harry saw (presumeably) are dead, Harry has now lost what he chose as the closest thing to a family member too. If this has any significance, I can see 1 of 2 things happening. Either Ron keeps getting everything he wanted and grows even happier and Harry keeps losing those he loves until the end, or maybe in the next book or early book 7 there will be a twist of fate in both boys' lives and Ron will start losing his utter happiness and Harry may gain a happier life (girlfriend? great grades? another adult figure he can talk to as a parent?)

FlyingPhoenix

September 29th, 2003, 12:45 pm

well, what would Ron want now then? What would his deepest desire be?

This will surprise you but I think after book5 Ron did see just the same in the mirror because Ron's deepest desire is still to step out from the shadow off others and to be his own man.

By Harry just the same he would see his whole family this time with Sirius. Because his deepest desire is still to be beloved.

Hawkmoon

September 29th, 2003, 4:16 pm

WHy one of the two character has to lose something to the other?. Harrys main interest is to be loved, not to be prefect, quidditch champion or head boy. So, why Harry has to feel miserable when Ron gets something like that?. The thing I most hate about Harrys attitude at Ron after Ron gets the prefect badge is that Harry feels jealousy when his best friend gets something that Harry is not interested to get. Because it is in the way and he didnt get it , Harry react in a very stupid way, IMO.

SnowyOwl

September 29th, 2003, 4:23 pm

It might be seen as nitpicky, but I don't think Ron's desire was to be his own man. At age 11, he wanted to be the best of his brothers. None of them had been both quidditch captain AND Head Boy, so Ron's desires were more concrete at this time. Perhaps they have morphed into the more abstract be-his-own-man view, but that is exactly my point. Instead of needing to be captain and head boy, the abstract view can be symbolized many ways. Perhaps Ron will get his 11 year old desire, but maybe it will be to illustrate that reaching these desires does not make him "the best of them all."

FlyingPhoenix

September 29th, 2003, 8:40 pm

he wanted to be the best of his brothers

All right he wanted to be the best of all. Isn't this to stand for his own without a shadow above him?

WHy one of the two character has to lose something to the other?. Harrys main interest is to be loved, not to be prefect, quidditch champion or head boy. So, why Harry has to feel miserable when Ron gets something like that?. The thing I most hate about Harrys attitude at Ron after Ron gets the prefect badge is that Harry feels jealousy when his best friend gets something that Harry is not interested to get. Because it is in the way and he didnt get it , Harry react in a very stupid way, IMO.

Its not that one lose something to the other thats not the point. The point is that one don't has anything what he dearly want and the other get but take it for granted. For someone who never had a family and deepest desire is to have an own family than is it very hard to hear your best friend complain about his wounderful family since the very day he did meet him. Ron complains about that what Harry want, with all off his heart want since he can think and there Ron complain about such a great, wonderful and fantastic family and Harry didn't say till now anything how much this might bother him by Ron. Now comes that Ron don't only has this great family now he get what he always wanted, his deepest desire to be prefect and play quiditch. Harry get banned, a life banne from that what he dearly loves and there sit again Ron and complains about his misfortune. I mean hell I did react like Harry If not worest because Ron get all this wonderfull things and take it granted. He has even the nerv to come to Harry and complain that he is forced to play quiditch though he know very well Harry would lovely play and be in Ron's shoes.
I never heard or read in this books that Harry did complain about his misfortune, never said in front of Ron how granted her take everything he has. Not as that much like Ron. Though he has all rights to do this. Thats why I expect this in book6 that we see a Harry who take his live very granted. I mean Its time to be patetic.

Eleanor12

September 29th, 2003, 9:01 pm

well, what would Ron want now then? What would his deepest desire be?

If I were Ron, I'd want some sort of reconciliation between my family and my brother Percy. But that's probably not what Ron's thinking about. Maybe just safety for his family... We just don't know I guess.

Eleanor12

September 29th, 2003, 9:04 pm

EndlessDreamer

September 30th, 2003, 12:50 am

I honestly don;t see Ron complaining as a bad thing, I mean ppl need to get that sort of thing out of their system and that's what friends are for. And I've stated this before Harry doesnt talk about his feelings, hes a typical teenage guy.

As for what Ron desires now, I think that he wants to still be the most remarkable out of everyone he knows, including Harry. I mean thats why he was jealousy of Harry in GoF

Katy Kedevra

September 30th, 2003, 3:07 am

I'm starting to think that Harry is cursed (pun intended). The only thing he truly wants is his family, but it is somthing he will never have because his family is dead. Unless you count Petunia and Dudley (and I do hope they begin to love him by the end, but you never know with those two), he can't ever have a true family. Of course, you may argue that the word 'family' means the people you love and are close to but Harry has always wanted his own family back and even if he is adopted by, for example, the Weasleys, he will always be wondering how life would have been with his real mother and father, no matter how far inside himself he pushes that desire. Harry's grown to take pride in his real mother and father, to him, there will never be a substitute.

On the subject of Ron, these posts have made it clear to me how much Ron takes his own family for granted. I think that Ron should loose a family member. Although it would be extremely sad, I think it would be better for Ron (okay, not necessarily for him but for his character in the story). If a family member died, then Ron would appreciate everything his brothers and sister and parents did for him (maybe even like maroon), he would feel utterly depressed because he would be sad about never thinking about them enough before and so he may seek out Harry and open up to him (and to us in doing so) because Harry knows exactly how Ron would be feeling.

morgan le fay

September 30th, 2003, 4:51 am

On the subject of Ron, these posts have made it clear to me how much Ron takes his own family for granted. I think that Ron should loose a family member. Although it would be extremely sad, I think it would be better for Ron (okay, not necessarily for him but for his character in the story). If a family member died, then Ron would appreciate everything his brothers and sister and parents did for him (maybe even like maroon), he would feel utterly depressed because he would be sad about never thinking about them enough before and so he may seek out Harry and open up to him (and to us in doing so) because Harry knows exactly how Ron would be feeling.

i totally agree. :agree: i think that one of the characters to die in the next book will be a weasley, because statistically, the odds are against the family. there are NINE of them and HOW many principle characters??? my point exactly. also, i think a weasley will die because of your reason, Katy, that it will develop ron's character, hopefully for the better... unless he is the one who dies. :shrug:

back on the topic though, ron and harry sort of remind me of the prince and the pauper. each wants what the other has. ron wants harrys fame and quidditch talent, and harry wants to be loved and cherished by a family.

Katy Kedevra

September 30th, 2003, 1:30 pm

back on the topic though, ron and harry sort of remind me of the prince and the pauper. each wants what the other has. ron wants harrys fame and quidditch talent, and harry wants to be loved and cherished by a family.
Too true. :sad:

Guardian Angel

September 30th, 2003, 1:40 pm

Morgan Le Fay, that was a beautiful catch! It really does remind me of the Prince and the Pauper. Great job!

SnowyOwl

September 30th, 2003, 4:10 pm

Hawkmoon

September 30th, 2003, 4:42 pm

I totally agree ofwhat you said.
Also, I still think that Ron's and Harrys dreams of book 1 are totally compatible.
Maybe its stupid, but I think that Harrys feelings in book 5 are similar to the feelings Ron has been bottling up in previous books that lead to the fallout in book 4. Harry feel jealous when Ron gets a recognition, he has to look how Ron is practicing and playing quidditch, something he wants to do, and sees how the other is gaining fame after an individual victory (last quidditch match). So, in this book, Harry IS Ron.

FlyingPhoenix

September 30th, 2003, 9:22 pm

The only character who hasn't struggled is Hermione. If anyone needs a good struggle it's her.

Thats why she will see thestrals in book6.

While I agree that one of the Weasleys will die, I disagree with it being a plot device to make Ron appreciate his family

If JKR is mean and I think she is will someone die in book7 and not book6. See you think all Weasleys did it through the books and than you look at Harry and Hermione who will till book7 have lost and wonder whats with Ron and the Weasleys? This make me wonder If I should fancy to read book7...

GrangerGal

September 30th, 2003, 11:48 pm

I want to comment on something I believe Catgirl said back on page one of this thread. She said that Ron does not provide comic relief. I disagree. The definition of comic relief is a humorous scene, incident, or speech that is included usually (but not always) in a serious drama to provide a change from emotional intensity. It breaks the tension in between difficult or emotional scenes. I thing that Ron does provide some comic relief because during strenuous scenes, he provides a laugh or a release. Also we cannot say whether or not the series is comic or tragic b/c we do not know the ending yet. If Harry dies, the series would be a tragedy.

[/I][Posted by Hawkmoon - Today at 10:42 am
I totally agree ofwhat you said.
Also, I still think that Ron's and Harrys dreams of book 1 are totally compatible.
Maybe its stupid, but I think that Harrys feelings in book 5 are similar to the feelings Ron has been bottling up in previous books that lead to the fallout in book 4. Harry feel jealous when Ron gets a recognition, he has to look how Ron is practicing and playing quidditch, something he wants to do, and sees how the other is gaining fame after an individual victory (last quidditch match). So, in this book, Harry IS Ron.[I]

I was thinking along these lines when I read Book 5. Harry does show many of the qualities that Ron displayed in Book 4. His jealousy and anger matched and even surpassed Ron's. I think both boys have good reasons (although good reasons don't erase bad behaviors) for being jealous. Ron is often over looked in a big family and Harry does not have a family. Both boys have felt neglected and overshadowed by others their whole lives. It is understandable that as teenagers they would show signs of jealousy and anger.

EndlessDreamer

October 1st, 2003, 2:02 am

On the subject of Ron, these posts have made it clear to me how much Ron takes his own family for granted. I think that Ron should loose a family member. Although it would be extremely sad, I think it would be better for Ron (okay, not necessarily for him but for his character in the story). If a family member died, then Ron would appreciate everything his brothers and sister and parents did for him (maybe even like maroon), he would feel utterly depressed because he would be sad about never thinking about them enough before and so he may seek out Harry and open up to him (and to us in doing so) because Harry knows exactly how Ron would be feeling.

I agree kinda of with what you said, but I dont agree with you saying Harry would know exactly what Ron would be feeling, because Ron MADE relationships with his family, he's actually KNOWN them, while Harry just knows what people tell him, one of the reasons he's so upset with Snape's Worst Memory. I think it would be harder for Ron to lose someone now because he has a relationship and memories with all of his family, unlike Harry.

v@sh

October 1st, 2003, 2:57 am

Oh I don't know that Ron takes his family for granted. He has had to deal with almost losing Ginny, his Dad, and Percy. Ron has struggled in this area. The only character who hasn't struggled is Hermione. If anyone needs a good struggle it's her.

I would say it is overly simplistic to say that Harry and Ron want what the other has. Again, Ron's desire was to be the best of his brothers. This is very focused, and stems from being the youngest boy in a family of high achievers. It has nothing to do with other people around him. He feels he has a lot to live up to and yet if he does "live up to it," it is expected because it has been done before. This is why he had to picture himself quidditch captain and Head Boy--the best of his brothers.

While I agree that one of the Weasleys will die, I disagree with it being a plot device to make Ron appreciate his family. I think he does appreciate them. He is: protective of Ginny, upset that Percy is being a jerk, really upset when his father is attacked, mad when Malfoy has a go at his mom, etc. These are not the reactions of one who is unappreciative

I completely agree with that. Ron is appreciative of his family, even though he is poor and complains about it and we do not see much of this appreciativeness, he does love his family and so do everyone else in the rest of the Weasley clan - except maybe Percy.

It is simplistic to say that Ron and Harry both want what each other has. But in truth I think thats what it is. It is their hearts desire, and through what Ron sees is how he percieves that he can be above his brothers whereas Harry he wishes to have a family or to be loved, one or the other. Both I think in book 5 got some bits of what they wanted, yet it wasn't what they expected. Ron got his prefect badge and a place on the quidditch pitch, yet he faltered on the quidditch pitch because of his self-confidence and being perfect wasn't exactly his thing. Harry, on the other hand, finally got to see Sirius for a extended period of time and was extremely fond of Sirius but eventually he had his love from Sirius taken away from him. Sure other people love Harry as well, but Sirius was very close to family to him.

Ron could have a change of priorities in the next few books because he now has had a fair amount of experience in what he wants to be, and with all his brothers gone from Hogwarts Ron could become the person he actually is without his brothers persence around. Harry though, will be left to suffer even more, unless another father-figure steps into the fray or he finds himself a steady girlfriend who loves him for who he is, not the boy who lived. This could be either Hermione or Ginny (but you have to go to the love thread for that).

As for Ron be portrayed as bad in book 5. I don't think he is bad at all really, DD would of chosen Harry, yes, if he didn't have so many things occupying things. But my belief is that Ron was chosen because he along with Harry has also the qualities of what a Gryffindor should be and he was chosen exactly because of this. Who knows, DD might of also gave it to Ron as a chance to boost his confidence and surpass his brothers. As for Ron's quidditch skills, he definately has them as Harry said during his first practice, its just that he cannot perform under scrutiny and thats where he falters. But Ron is a good quidditch player, he must be if he managed to get in the side. It in the book it is written that Ron is quite bad, but considering what other players could be like, Ron is probably way better than others. So really, Ron isn't bad, the book just makes it look bad because its not from his point of view either e.g. when Ron finally comes good at the end and they win the quidditch cup this is overshadowed by Harry and Hermione's adventure in the forest whereas if it was Harry there would be celebrating everywhere.

Katy Kedevra

October 1st, 2003, 4:36 am

I agree kinda of with what you said, but I dont agree with you saying Harry would know exactly what Ron would be feeling, because Ron MADE relationships with his family, he's actually KNOWN them, while Harry just knows what people tell him, one of the reasons he's so upset with Snape's Worst Memory. I think it would be harder for Ron to lose someone now because he has a relationship and memories with all of his family, unlike Harry.
Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of Harry losing Sirius because Harry thought of Sirius as a brother and father figure. But exactly probably wasn't the best word either. ;)

Eleanor12

October 1st, 2003, 9:06 pm

SnowyOwl

October 1st, 2003, 9:56 pm

Eleanor12

October 1st, 2003, 11:21 pm

Thanks for the kind words.
While I do feel that at least one Weasley will die (my guess is Charlie), I really would rather they all made it through--although I would have to see Percy do some major penance!

Oh well you're welcome. I almost wanted to thank you for saying what you said. I agree that Percy deserves to have some consequences for his actions (he HAS been awful), but I certainly would not wish death on him. Of course I do hope nobody dies. But I've already said that. What do you think would be good to have happen to Percy?

Eleanor12

October 1st, 2003, 11:25 pm

Thats why she will see thestrals in book6.

..

what do you mean? is seeing thestrals a struggle? Oh, you think someone close to her will die? Hmmm. Maybe. I'm still a little confused, though.

Hawkmoon

October 1st, 2003, 11:32 pm

Hello!. I want to develop my theory of the last post. How Ron and Harry are switching places in some way.

In the beginning, there was the prefect badge. And when Ron gets it, Harry feels surprise. He didnt remember about the prefect badge given in this year.
After the reactions of the twins and Hermione, Harry starts to feel what I think is the most stupid reaction of all. Jealousy of the first time that his best friend has achieve something.
Also he feels the fear that he has failed at the eyes of Hermione and the rest of the Order. That a lot of expectatives were put on him, and that he didnt fulfill them.

Isnt it different from the feelings of Ron in the first books?. As the last of six brothers which have achieve the greater things in Hogwarts, a lot of expectations were put on him, and he has the fear to fail at this. So, it is like Harry but in the oposite. Harry has for granted, in book 5, that everything that is in his way (prefect badge) will be given to him. Ron has the fear , in previous books, that everything that is in his way will be given to Harry. So both boys have the same emotions. Jealousy and the sensation that IF they didnt get what is in their way they are failing on the expectations.

Also there is the sport both boys like the most. Quidditch. In this book we see how Harry is banned from the team and he must see how Ron is the one to train for quidditch and play it in the grounds. And, at the end, win a victory. I didnt have the feeling that Harry is jealous for this, but as Flying Phoenix says, maybe Harry is angry bc he has to bear as Ron complains about the problems he had on his practice or how difficult it is for the team to win the quidditch league. Then isnt it the same situation of Ron in the first years? He likes quidditch, and being quidditch player is a way to fulfill his dreams to become the best of the Weasley boys. But he had to sit with the audience and watch how his best friend played the sport he likes most and won victories. As Harry cannot play quidditch bc he was banned from the team, Ron couldnt play in previous books bc he wasnt acepted in the team. So the situation is the same.

Also, in the books we see how Ron lets his emotions to domine him. And in this book we got a lot of moments in wich Harry is domined by his feelings of anger and frustration even towards his friends.

Then it is so posible to write a fallout with Harry similar to the fallout of Ron in book 4. He feels he is failing on the expectations bc his best friend gets the recognition. He loves quidditch but he is not able to play it and he has to stand how his friend is playing and winning the cup. So, Harry is in the place of Ron in book 2 or 3.

And this explains also why we didnt get so many descriptions of Ron doing things during DA clases or in his prefect duties. Harry feels distant from Ron so he didnt look at him in the DA meetings (we see things through his point of view), and he never asked him how he was doing with the prefect duties at the last part of the year. He didnt bc he really didnt care about him. He sees him as a rival.

I really think I am exagerating, bc as I said, the thing Harry really wants is to be loved. So, Quidditch, prefect badge, Head Boy, these things are not conected with this great desire. Then, Why do we get a jealous feeling from Harry when he didnt get the badge, if ,as he says , he didnt want recognition, hates attention and what he really wants is a family?

About the future of the Weasleys, I didnt feel it is needed to the author to kill one of them to make Ron realize Harrys feelings. He knows Harry for five years and is loyal to him. Also , he has faced the abduction of his sister in book 2 and the near death of his father in book 5, and in both cases we see that he values his family. In the scene of book 5, when Harry tells him his vision of Sirius tortured in the Departament of Misteries, we got an emotional response of Ron who understands Harrys feelings bc he feels the same when his father was attacked in Christmas.

If Harry needs emotional empathy with a friend in the issue of the lost of his family and Sirius, the author didnt need to kill a Weasley or Hermiones parents. In book 5 Harry expanded his circle of friends and there are two characters than can feel related to Harry in this area bc both had lost their parents: Neville and Luna. In the closing scene of the book in Hogwarts, Harry and Luna talk and I feel they connect in some way.

Well, what do you think?.

EndlessDreamer

October 2nd, 2003, 12:22 am

Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of Harry losing Sirius because Harry thought of Sirius as a brother and father figure. But exactly probably wasn't the best word either. ;)

Oh well if your looking at Sirius then I guess it would be somewhat the same, moreso than if it were his parents.

And Hawkmoon all i have to say is amazing.

FlyingPhoenix

October 2nd, 2003, 12:19 pm

what do you mean? is seeing thestrals a struggle? Oh, you think someone close to her will die? Hmmm. Maybe. I'm still a little confused, though

You remember that Harry told her she should be lucky that she don't see them? And do you remember that from the class only three could see them? I do and thats leads me to the conclusion that by the end off the war it will be special if you don't see the thestrals in OotP is it special that you can see them.
Not only someone will die her parents will die in book6 and Hermione will see how they die thats why her parents were that often mentioned in OotP.
Hermione have to see dead otherwise she can't see thestrals.
We have Harry who has relative, though they dislike him this say he has a home. Ron who has a complett family. What we don't have is an orphanage and this will be Hermione. This is part off my theory of "Hermione and Riddle" where I debatte the connection or rather the opposite to each other.
So she will struggle.

But thats off topic.

Eleanor12 don't doublepost if you have to add something to your post use the edit button on the right side of your post. Mods don't like it if someone doubleposts.

SnowyOwl

October 2nd, 2003, 5:49 pm

I agree that Percy deserves to have some consequences for his actions (he HAS been awful), but I certainly would not wish death on him. Of course I do hope nobody dies. But I've already said that. What do you think would be good to have happen to Percy?

I would like to have Percy stand up for his father--in front of his superiors--even if it means causing serious problems with his ambitions. I'd like to see him actually apologize to everyone that he has stepped on in his drive to excel at the MoM.

EndlessDreamer

October 3rd, 2003, 9:52 pm

Eleanor12

October 3rd, 2003, 10:25 pm

You remember that Harry told her she should be lucky that she don't see them? And do you remember that from the class only three could see them? I do and thats leads me to the conclusion that by the end off the war it will be special if you don't see the thestrals in OotP is it special that you can see them.
Not only someone will die her parents will die in book6 and Hermione will see how they die thats why her parents were that often mentioned in OotP.
Hermione have to see dead otherwise she can't see thestrals.
We have Harry who has relative, though they dislike him this say he has a home. Ron who has a complett family. What we don't have is an orphanage and this will be Hermione. This is part off my theory of "Hermione and Riddle" where I debatte the connection or rather the opposite to each other.
So she will struggle.

But thats off topic.

Eleanor12 don't doublepost if you have to add something to your post use the edit button on the right side of your post. Mods don't like it if someone doubleposts.

Okay thank you. I hope her parents don't die.

KatieLBell

October 3rd, 2003, 10:43 pm

[QUOTE=EndlessDreamer]I would like to have Percy stand up for his father--in front of his superiors--even if it means causing serious problems with his ambitions. I'd like to see him actually apologize to everyone that he has stepped on in his drive to excel at the MoM.

He will have to apologize to his dad soon before Arthur becomes the next minister of Magic. If not lets have Arthur fire him hee hee

EndlessDreamer

October 4th, 2003, 3:34 am

Tehe That'd be great if Arthur fired Percy but he wouldnt even if Percy didn't apologize. And I'm not sure bout the whole Arthur becoming MoM.

Eleanor12

October 4th, 2003, 3:42 am

And I'm not sure bout the whole Arthur becoming MoM.

That does seem like a bit of a stretch, I agree. But it wouldn't be a bad thing.

EndlessDreamer

October 4th, 2003, 7:37 pm

That does seem like a bit of a stretch, I agree. But it wouldn't be a bad thing.

No it wouldn't just a bit far fetched.

Katy Kedevra

October 5th, 2003, 10:54 pm

I doubt that Arthur will become the next MoM because, as it was said before, he prefers his job working for muggles. There would be too much controversy having a MoM who cared, as it seems, more for the norms of the muggle world than those of the wizarding world, even if he does practice them.

morgan le fay

October 5th, 2003, 11:01 pm

back to the idea of if ron is THAT bad ( :lol: ), i guess i agree with Hawkmoon's latest post....... im kind of getting this vibe that ron has grown a bit in the last book. one thing that you cant deny about ron is that he is loyal to harry. ron and harry are very much alike in different ways (if that wasnt a paradox i dont know what is lol). while im glad ron got the prefect badge, i dont think he did a very good job as prefect.... most of the time we saw hermione acting her duties, and ron sittin on the side shielding himself from view. he could learn to take more responsibility, but he had a lot of things to worry about his fifth year.

haycheng

October 9th, 2003, 1:59 am

Ron is not bad. He is brave and loyal. Although his loyality is tested in GOF, he comes around. I believe he understand Harry would not do it logically, but he is just being overshadow for so long. I still do not think Ron is deserve the perfect though, either is Harry. Both of them break too many rule to my like. However, it is unclear what choice the techers have as we do not see other student often. One thing is sure is that Ron is not doing too well with the perfect duty in OFTP. I hope he will improve, it is a important job.

As for his skill in sport, It is also remain to be see. His skill is still unable. It will require more game for me to judge his skill.

He still have issue with self-image in OFTP. The issue in GOF is still unresolve. Achievement alone would not improve self-image. It require a comfort and understand who you are and be proud for it.

ginnythecat

October 9th, 2003, 4:35 am

maeve

March 23rd, 2004, 9:55 pm

Excellent post Hawkmoon! I agree that we will be seeing more from Ron in the future.
After reading OotP I also got the impression that Harry would split from the trio in the next book. He was upset throughout the entire year and having unwaranted outbursts. Now that Sirius is dead he will be even more conflicted and confused.
I think one of the main reasons Harry is such close friends with Ron is that he doesn't view him as a threat or any kind of competition. But as you pointed out that is about to change.

Lupin_Lady

March 23rd, 2004, 10:17 pm

Now is not the time that Harry will be straying from his best friends! He lost his father figure... He will not leave the only people he still loves and who love him in return!

Also, Harry has never thought of Ron as "no competition..." They are best friends. You don't think of your friends like that! They became friends because they were similar, mischief making boys. If anything Harry envies Ron for his family, but he need not, as Harry is practically part of it anyway.

Discordia

March 27th, 2004, 3:45 am

I would like to have Percy stand up for his father--in front of his superiors--even if it means causing serious problems with his ambitions. I'd like to see him actually apologize to everyone that he has stepped on in his drive to excel at the MoM.

I agree. Although Percy cares abouit his brothers he needs to just shove aside his ambition for once in his life and open his eyes. If he doesn't he'll end up like Fudge who refused to see the truth and like Crouch who let his own ambition get in the way of his family. Hagrid said that blood is thicker than water but it seems like it counts for very little family wise in the books with certain people. Look at the Black family. They'd just as soon kill eachother off even though they're family. Percy is a good preson and he needs to show that by sticking uo for the people that have taken care of him for the last 19 years.

I think that Ron just needs a little time in the spotlight for once. He's spent his whole life living in his brother's shadow that he doesn't really know how to begin to be his own person. Everything he's ever owned has been a hand me down and all of his brothers have excelled in something. Ron is starting to get his time to really shine.

Furienna

March 27th, 2004, 11:00 am

Ginnythecat: How was Harry not a good a friend of Ron's in OOTP? Please Explain!

Maeve: Puh-lease! Harry doesn't choose his friends because they're not a competition to him. You seem to think that he's as arrogant as Snape thinks he is! If Harry thought like that, he wouldn't make friends with Hermione either, when she gets better grades, Harry and Ron became friends allready when they ended up in the same compartment on their first ride on the Hogwarts Express because they were good match. They felt, I guess, like they were as good as meant to be each other's buddies.

nrogara

March 27th, 2004, 3:00 pm

The loyalty between Ron and Harry might have broken in OotP as Ron kept secrets from Harry and to Harry that is just not right.

To blame Ron only for keeping secrets is not fair because Harry kept his share also. I only remember one thing that Ron kept from Harry and that was he was practicing to try out for keeper, but if you remember in the scene that Harry found that out that had Ron not noticed the scars on Harry's arm that Harry would not have told Ron about what was happening in his detentions. How is one worse than the other? Then there are the many dreams that Harry has that he doesn't tell them about until the incident with Mr Weasley. Also he doesn't tell Ron or Hermione the truth about the Occlumency lessons with Snape, in fact he instead lies to them about it. Also, Harry didn't tell Hermione about her hats for the elves only being taken by Dobby. So secrets from friends is something all three of them have been known to do. In fact of the three of them I would have to say Ron is the most open about everything.

Hawkmoon, great essay about Ron and his character. And I would never have known that English is your second language had you not said anything. I also think that Harry will be the one to break away from the trio in the next book.

Furienna

March 29th, 2004, 7:34 am

But why would anyone in the trio "break away"? Harry might be sad and in mourning for a while after Sirius' death, but when the worst mourning is over, he won't stay away from Ron or Hermione any more. Also, I think Ron and Hermione might mourn over Sirius too, just not as much as Harry.

Puffskein

March 29th, 2004, 12:01 pm

In OOTP, Harry realised that Ron and Hermione can't give him all the many kinds of friendship he needs. They haven't been possessed by Voldemort (like Ginny), they haven't been bereaved (like Luna), they haven't been the subject of prophecies (like Neville). I think that in the next book, Harry will develop friendship bonds with all the people with whom he has experiences in common, but I hope he won't sacrifice any of his existing friendships in the process. He needs all the support he can get.

Furienna

March 29th, 2004, 12:32 pm

OK, I guess Ginny, Luna and Neville will keep the important roles they had in OOTP, but that doesn't mean Harry should, or would, stop being friends with Ron and/or Hermione or that the trio might break apart. Instead, I think there might be a sextette (sp?) instead of a trio.

Mirtilla

April 3rd, 2004, 4:08 pm

Hawkmoon that was a good analysis about Ron in ootp. I’ve to agree with your theory about the fall out between Harry and Ron, I think that’s possible mostly because of some issues between them, for example they’re jealous of each other, Ron was and in my opinion is, jealous of Harry’s fame and of what Harry had, Harry was the first that won the Cup something that Ron, we know, desired and again while Harry was jealous about the fact that Ron became prefect because he felt that he, Harry, was the one that deserved it. Then you mentioned this:

Well, Ron as a quidditch player is , for me, the way JKR choses to show us Ron's problems and his potential. He failed in the first matches, when the Slytherins were humiliating him with their song. And he succeeded at the end, when he thought "I Can do this". He gets over his problems and show to the school he can be a good player. To the school, but no to us. Because Harry was not at the match.
Am I the only one who found the way JKR presents this part of the story very strange?.

No you’re definitely not the only one, what I find interesting is that Ron became confident in his abilities only when Harry and Hermione weren’t present, I personally think that is not coincidental, especially the fact that Harry didn’t see it.

You’re right in saying that Ron was hiding from us during the whole ootp book, however there could be another explanation beside the fall out one, I think that Ron needs to find some confidence in its own and that during these years he has been a bit obscured by Harry’s fame and Hermione’s smartness, that’s my, imo, he has developed a inferiority complex, he need to distance a bit himself form Harry in order to become Ron in his own.

Originally Posted by EndlessDreamer
Everyones saying that Harry NEEDS his friends, when in reality Harry doesn't need them, not really. We don't know if Harry could have done everything he has on his own, BUT we do know he got along alright without friends for 10 years prior to finding out the truth. I think that as an individual Harry could still accomplish alot, and that sometimes the friends just add to everything, I mean he doesn't get stuff off his chest anyways, and feels more burdened because he wants to protect them. Anyways I think I've hit rambling, hope that makes sense

Of course Harry needs his friends, it was thanks to them that he managed to arrive where he is right now, without Hermione’s smartness I don’t think we would seen Harry alive, and Harry doesn’t got along “alright” for ten years without his friends, it’s clear that Harry hated and still hates his life with the Dursley, unless of course you’re considering being always humiliated as “going along alright”, I really have to disagree with this statement.

Mirtilla

Amw243

April 3rd, 2004, 4:24 pm

Doggy

April 3rd, 2004, 5:42 pm

I think one of the main reasons Harry is such close friends with Ron is that he doesn't view him as a threat or any kind of competition.
I wouldn't agree with that. Firstly, Harry became Ron's friend on the Hogwarts' Express, before he had a chance to sum up Ron's possible rivalry.
Secondly, Harry didn't have any friends at all before Hogwarts. He was happy to have a friend at all when he got to know Ron.

Anyway, Ron's is not "that bad". Remember in PS, when he had only just turned 12, and let himself be taken on the chessboard. Doesn't that say something about Ron's personality?

Sure, he was a bit jealous in GoF, but he's gone past that now.

Mirtilla

April 3rd, 2004, 6:53 pm

Originally posted by Doggy
Anyway, Ron's is not "that bad". Remember in PS, when he had only just turned 12, and let himself be taken on the chessboard. Doesn't that say something about Ron's personality?

Yes it says he’s a loyal friend and that he’s also brave, but this was one of the few things that he really did for Harry, he left him in GoF and even if Harry deep down wanted to make peace with Ron and tried also to catch his eyes during lessons is Ron the one that systematically refused to make peace until the first task and it seems that their issue hasn’t been totally resolved

Sure, he was a bit jealous in GoF, but he's gone past that now.

I wouldn’t say that, in ootp especially at the beginning there are some hints that could mean he’s not completely over, when Harry return from the hearing, Ron made a comment along the lines that since he’s “Harry Potter” it was sure enough that he would had no problems he’s not relived like others, sure you can interpret it in a different way, still it’s not what I would call a “nice comment” especially to say to your best friend that you know was very afraid. But what I think could lead to a fall out between those two is the fact that even Harry felt sort of “joy” even if this is not the right term, when Ron was afraid of his Quidditch’s performance, and even after the prefect badge scene, Harry for a very briefly moment laugh at the twins’ words about Ron, sure right after he felt sorry and said something like “it’s not Ron’s fault” but it’s still something that I wouldn’t dismiss so easily especially when the was no necessity of writing it unless of course to set up the basis for a possible future situation.

Mirtilla

FlyingPhoenix

April 3rd, 2004, 7:02 pm

Anyway, Ron's is not "that bad". Remember in PS, when he had only just turned 12, and let himself be taken on the chessboard. Doesn't that say something about Ron's personality?

Even though it was a good thing even this you can interpret in a bad way. After all Ron was for once the hero? No, well he was a hero in that scene.
But at hands of a single action you can't say he is all that good. Sure Ron has his good sides but by all mean he has bad too. Without this he weren't human not that likeable how he is. To say he has no failures, he did not mean things like that don't really favor Ron. In fact those things were meant like that.

Abhishek

April 3rd, 2004, 9:37 pm

Regarding the chosing of the prefects: I was pleasantly surprised when Harry wasn't bothered by not being made prefect. I thought he would stew over it and be angry, but he was obviously cool with it. His "coolness" with it is complete and genuine as well, now that I think about it, because JKR mentions various prefect duties and tasks but doesn't mention any of the perks. Knowing about some prefect perk might make Harry jealous, but JKR doesn't even give him the opportunity.

*cough*huge prefect bathroom*cough* :P

How exactly was Harry cool about it? He just buried his emotions way inside of him. When he was at the dinner, he was still fuming about it and only when it was menioned that his father was not one was he happy again. He was not cool. He just hid it really well.

LumosSoleil

April 3rd, 2004, 10:36 pm

I sincerely think Ron would easily be jealous of Harry than Harry will ever be of Ron. I mean, Harry has a lot more sense than Ron. Ron can be very insensitive at times by not recognizing the pain and troubles of Hermione and Harry. Ron ISN'T that bad, but I just think he needs to grow up. And not to be mean, but if Ron becomes HeadBoy, someone needs to shoot him before HIS head gets too big.

Furienna

April 5th, 2004, 8:47 am

Ron will never become Head Boy. He's not even a good prefect. But I hope it's not Draco who becomes that. I would think Harry becomes Head Boy and Hermione becomes Head Girl.

Discordia

April 5th, 2004, 1:14 pm

I don't think that Ron nor Draco will make headboy. Ron really did not take his role all that seriously and Draco abused his position by bullying everyone.

Yavanna

April 5th, 2004, 1:41 pm

Harry being Head Boy and Hermione being Head Girl just seems so obvious. I think JKR is either going to go this obvious route or go on another completely different path. I don't know what this path would be, but it would be something surprising, just like Ron getting Prefect was surprising.

Bee

April 6th, 2004, 3:21 am

I definitely think if Ron were to make it as Head Boy, this would be a huge mistake on Dumbledore's part. Ron, quite frankly, doesn't have what it takes. perhaps Percy is annoying and bigheaded (hence "Bighead Boy", ya gotta love ol' Gred and Forge) but he made a pretty great Head Boy. Ron doesn't exactly fit the criteria... and come to think of it, neither does Harry... the only reason Harry would become Head Boy is because he really is a teacher's pet (Dumbledore's, of course) and he is very experience, magically. He doesn't possess any outstanding leadership skills, though, and he breaks a lot of school rules.

Hermione, on the other hand, is a prime candidate for Head Girl. Smart, responsible, and bossy. Perfect!

jasper

April 6th, 2004, 3:31 am

Not that this is the Head Boy thread, but who was head boy in OotP? Someone we don't know or care about? So, Ron and Harry and everyone else we know could get passed over for someone we've barely heard of.

Furienna

April 6th, 2004, 8:23 am

Actually, the only Head Boy we know of is really Percy, which we probably just know of because he's Ron's brother, and we haven't known any Head Girl. OK, Jasper is right on that this isn't a Head Boy/Girl thread, but I just have to say this to Delaney Dursley. Harry has broken rules, but so has Ron, Hermione and Draco, and all those became prefects. Wasn't James Head Boy, and he surely broke rules and got detention. I don't breaking a rule or two keeps you from becoming a Head Boy/Girl if you are the best for the position. When a crime is paid, then it shouldn't be used against you anymore, right? And really, Harry HAS shown leading skills in the DA meetings, and we can assume that at least Dumbledore knows about them.

fawkes5

April 8th, 2004, 8:09 am

Very astute observations Hawkmoon. I wonder why Rowling didn't build up Ron as a prefect. Maybe OotP had to deal with so many things in Harry's life that Ron's moment has got to wait a bit.

Ron is not bad at all. There is some difference between the movie and book Ron but I don't think the movie took anything away from him.

I agree that Ron has heart and that he is the most experienced one in terms of what goes down in the wizarding world (seeing as he is pure wizard and his Dad works in the MoM) but I wouldn't say he is the heart of the trio. I think the three contribute equally to that. I also did not like that they gave some of the dialogue that belonged to Ron to Hermione in PS. That dialogue was supposed to be part of Ron's character build up.

The thing Ron wants most in the world is to be distinguished or acknowledged for something he has done. So far he has dealt with and come to terms with his conflicts (GoF) but I think his shining moment is still to come.

I don't believe the trio will have a serious falling out in the future books. Their friendship has withstood a lot already. They will stand united against whats coming.

dobydoo

June 8th, 2004, 12:07 am

Ron doesn't exactly fit the criteria... and come to think of it, neither does Harry... the only reason Harry would become Head Boy is because he really is a teacher's pet (Dumbledore's, of course) and he is very experience, magically. He doesn't possess any outstanding leadership skills, though, and he breaks a lot of school rules.

You gotta be kidding here. He has no leadership skills. Did you not read about him as the teacher. How h lead the others in the MoM where all them (Hr/R/G/N/L) came out alive. It seems like everyone has respect (besides the slytherins) for him. The twins definitely respect him, and that says a lot.

dansewell

June 20th, 2004, 4:24 pm

I don't realy understand where this thread is going but george is one ov my many favereout carachters.

P.S. Hawk moon ur english aint that bad, I could never write a post like that.

WeasleyIsOurKing

June 20th, 2004, 4:46 pm

You gotta be kidding here. He has no leadership skills. Did you not read about him as the teacher. How h lead the others in the MoM where all them (Hr/R/G/N/L) came out alive. It seems like everyone has respect (besides the slytherins) for him. The twins definitely respect him, and that says a lot.

Yes, but when it comes to being a school authority? Is that what Harry would be good at?

dobydoo

June 21st, 2004, 11:03 pm

Yes, but when it comes to being a school authority? Is that what Harry would be good at?

Would any of the trio? Heck, even Hermione snuck into Snape's office.

The point is that Harry has the respect to have others follow. Just b/c someone follows rules all of the time does not make them a good authority figure.

Every great leader knows that sometimes its best not to follow the rules.

Also, remember, James was a trouble maker, but he was Head Boy.

stormcat_5000

July 17th, 2004, 8:56 am

I believe Ron is really that bad, many people call him the heart of the trio. personaly I dont care.so he cracks jokes that amuse us ,but seriously if harry is Under attack by a death eater i half expect him to say "blimey" or "bloody brilliant".Ron cant save harry by putting off the death eaters & voldemort by telling them jokes!they are not going to be charmed by his sense of humor and leave Harry alone just because he's got a humorous friend!.
but the way ron's character is growing I think that Ron actually thinks so himself!
so he is loyal and brave, well is that all? the answer is yes! he is!
He needs to be shown growing magically, he does not have to be like Hermione but he has to be strong. playing quidditch wont help him magically! if voldemort attacks Him or harry what is he going to do ? hit voldemort over his head with his broom stick?

filius

July 17th, 2004, 9:38 am

Ron is there for a reason. He is important to Harry. If Ron was not there, Harry would hardly be able to get through all his troubles. They are best friends. Everybody needs a best friend. Hermione isn't the same as Ron.

tao

July 17th, 2004, 4:46 pm

I really like this observation of Harry being jalous of Ron. I didn´t see that as clear while reading the book, but its a true.
Its as if everytime Ron does something good we don´t see it. JK chooses not to let us see it. And maybe thats just a symbol for Harry not seeing it and ignoring it.

Harry has no problem with Ron as long as he is "weaker" and "worse" than him. As long as thats the case he is loyal and tries to help Ron, with Quittich, with dating with everything.
But the first time Ron definitely gets something that Harry doesn´t, the prefectship or knowing stuff about the order, he (Harry) can hardly control himself and points out how much better he is than Ron.
He still did control himself. I´m not saying he totally lost it and risked their friendship in OotP BUT that could be a future theme to come up again. Could be about Quittich, Hermione, grades - everything. Sounds very interesting. :evil:

PS: I hope Ernie from Hufflpuff becomes HB, and maybe Hermione as HG.
I really hope Harry won´t be HB. He has to work hard enough not to become to arrogant (see above) and he has to save the world in 7th year!!

Furienna

August 30th, 2004, 8:52 am

PS: I hope Ernie from Hufflpuff becomes HB, and maybe Hermione as HG.
I really hope Harry won´t be HB. He has to work hard enough not to become to arrogant (see above) and he has to save the world in 7th year!!
Harry is so not arrogant!

stormcat_5000

August 30th, 2004, 11:28 am

Lord Voldivader

August 30th, 2004, 12:39 pm

Ron is sadly quiet Useless :( I love Ron but I cant help but feel that he is not very good in magic actually he seems to be awful in magic :( he needs to get better there is a war approaching and he needs to be ready for it!

You think? I don't think he's much worse than Harry. Harry always had more luck than ability. Well, except for the patronus, but still..

C8H10N4O2

August 30th, 2004, 4:29 pm

First, great post Hawkmoon. It was very well thought out, had some great observations about Ron that I had missed, an was expressed very well. Ron's role in the next two books is not very clear, and while he will be right there with Harry when the trouble starts, what about the rest of the time?

As you pointed out, Ron and Hermione had their disagreements with the other two, and Harry is due...to a point. I think Harry has done this to an extent in OotP, though it was more than that.

1. At the beginning, he is still struggling with Cedric's death (he dreams about it every night).

2. He is frustrated because Voldemort hasn't done anything, and this is causing him to worry greatly.

3. His friends are doing something, and he is feeling bitter about being left out -- I think this is basically how he has lived his life, as an outsider; but now that he has friends, I don't think it would happen with them.

4. Nothing from Dumbledore, Harry's main father-figure, because I think Sirius is really more of a big brother to Harry than a father. (Can you imagine what kind of father Sirius would be?) To make matters worse, when he is in Dumbledore's vicinity, he won't look him in the eye. And he made Ron prefect over Harry -- I believe Harry just assumed that he would one day be prefect, and therefore was not thinking about it when the letter came for his fifth year. But this hurt him and gave him more reason to wonder why Dumbledore is neglecting him

5. He has to worry about the trial. Nevermind that he fought and drove off the dementors as this is old hat for Harry, he actually felt like he was doing something constructive. But the trial would strip him of everything he now has, leaving him with less than nothing. He has a place he feels at home at finally. He has friends. He has adults to whom he can go and know he will be taken seriously. He has an activity he loves, Quidditch. And he has connections to his family through school. If he were expelled and his wand broken, it would be torture for Harry knowing what he could have that would be out of reach forever.

So, at the beginning of the book, Harry is isolated against his will -- no one will tell him what's going on and DD doesn't contact him at all.

Then, when he gets to 12 Grimmauld Place, he becomes more frustrated because of not becoming prefect, and the trial starts to really give him anxiety. He isolates himself this time, and I think Ron being the prefect is the main reason -- because it makes him an outsider with respect to his two friends again. Regardless the impending trial, this is what bothers him the most, not belonging.

Then, when they get to the Hogwart's Express, he is isolated by his friends against his will as they have to go to get their prefect orders.

He is isolated against his will when he does detention.

He is isolated against his will when he is kicked off the Quidditch team.

He isolates himself when he thinks that he attacked Mr. Weasley as a snake.

He is isolated against his will when his friends and the twins learn he was actually possessed by Voldemort -- although Ginny brings him back to reality by reminding him of her possession by Voldemort.

He is isolated from Ron as Ron is playing Quidditch and he is not, then when Hagrid gets Hermione and him to go see Grawp when Ron is winning the Quidditch Cup by his masterful goal keeping.

He is isolated again in the MoM as Ron is rendered incomprehensible, and as Hermione is stunned. Then as he faces Voldemort alone, until Dumbledore shows up.

Most of this was against his will. But the book ends with him, once again, isolating himself from everyone as he ponders the significance of the prophecy and what Voldemort has done to him, making him feel like an outsider again. But mostly because he has lost Sirius.

I think his self-imposed isolation will continue. It is possible we could not see any more of Ron in HBP as we did in OotP, except during the summer holidays as JKR has said he will spend the shortest summer so far with the Dursley's. Harry will increasingly grow isolated and aggitated as he ponders the prophecy, and draws nearer to facing Voldemort. Only Ron or Hermione will change this, as this has been their greatest role so far in the series -- making Harry feel like he finally belongs and is appreciated.

If they are to change this, they will have to force themselves on Harry, which is not really in character for Ron. It will be the only way to get through to him that he is not isolated, that he is not alone, that he doesn't have to carry his burden alone. Ron's role, maybe more than Hermione's who is too analytical and objective sometimes, has been and will be to help Harry carry his load as a willing listener and sympathizer, as a co-conspirator, as a partner in adventure and especially as a best friend. But again, it is not in character for Ron to do this, as he has his own issues -- feelings of inferiority to his wonderful brothers (even the twins were good at Quidditch), inferiority to Hermione is school work (though he expected her to share her notes and attempted to cheat off her homework numerous times), and inferiority to Harry, who quite frankly is more to be pitied right now than envied. But I think Ron will rise above his problems, now that he has reason to be confident in himself and there are much bigger issues to worry about, and give Harry the moral support he needs.

I think we will finally see Ron show his true abilities and character, for good or bad, in HBP and into the 7th book.