CoSForums Archive - M-15 - Teen pregnancies and your life afterwards

Augurey

September 27th, 2003, 11:25 pm

Hello, i'm not completely sure if this has been said before, i did do a search but i can never really understand that thing so of course if there is already a thread there then feel free to close this.

I'm eighteen, but when i fourteen i was very stupid and managed to get myself pregnant. I quit school but went back when Oliver was a year old and have now finished, thank god.
I can't say that having a baby has destroyed my life, because it most certainly hasn't but i just wish i had waited, you know.
I have great parents, ironically my mum is a childminder so she looks after Ollie (although he has just started school) while i go to college to get some decent quilifications. I have been told on countless occations that i am being very selfish, dumping my child with my parents while i go out and enjoy myself, but all i'm doing is trying to make sure i get a decent job so that i can support my kid later on. I mean i never go out socially, most of my friends go down the pub in the evenings but i stay at home and am quite happy to do that.
In an amazing twist of fate though, my boyfriend who is excactly the same age as me (we have the same birthday) has stayed with me, when you hear most young fathers never bother to stick around, he did, which is great, we've just moved in together. Anyway thats how things are for me right now.

So does anyone else out there no what its like to be young and a mother or father? do you know anybody who is still in their teens and are getting ready for 'Mr stork'?
I'm just wondering how lives have turned out since that little bundle of joy came along.
thanks
Augurey x

Mireille

September 27th, 2003, 11:31 pm

Two of my friends in high school got pregnant about the same time. One wanted to give hers up for adoption, but the father wants his son. Needless to say, that story isn't such a good one considering they were living together the last time I had heard and she still didn't want her son.

The other one has taken on the role of motherhood with grace. She tries to support herself and her son. The father is still in her life, but I'm sure he isn't happy. She told me that his father told him that he would not allow his son to abandon her and his son. That relationship has been a rocky one ever since.

As for me, I do not have children as of yet.

pasalita

September 28th, 2003, 12:19 am

Just a quick reminder: This thread is to focus on how one has experienced teen pregnancies: Misgivings, appreciation, support, etc. Please do not discuss concepts on abortion and what not since we already have a thread that exists for that topic.

Thank you.

haycheng

September 28th, 2003, 1:25 am

Thank you for reminding us, Professor.
It is always a difficult decision to be teenage parents(both father and mother). If you get help from your parents and try to do normal thing, people will say you are not responsible for your own action. If you do not get help, people start to wonder do you has a bad relationship with your parents. I think people stick their nose in place that do not belong.

I probably do not agree teen pregnancy, in fact I do not think I like the idea of pregnancy when the couples are not ready for it. I think it may be ok for teen pregnancy if that is what the couples want and they have work out the detail. Although I doubt many teenagers really have the mean and heart to care for a child by themselves.

It is not a good thing to have a kid when you are not ready. However, you should still try your best to improve your own life and also the baby. I see nothing wrong when the grandparents are taking care of the baby while the teens try to work or go to school. It do seem kind of wrong to have fun and forget about your kids. My parents are not teenagers when they have me. yet I was care by my grandma. They just think countryside is a better place for me, and I am the first grandson for my grandma. I live with my grandma until I am 5. I learn most of my moral from grandma. I see nothing wrong with it. Although I must admit it do creat some interesting moment when I am small. I still remember my mon is very upset when she ask me who I love most.(I was 6 or 7 back then)

Just want to remind anyone who are parents. Please spend time with your kids. They may not turn out ok if they do not have enough love. Moreover, ever if they have enough love from someone, your relationship with your kids will suffer.

dumbleedore

September 28th, 2003, 1:00 pm

Teenage pregnancies is one thing that gets me riled up. Where I live a lot of girls start having kids at 15/16, just for the hell of it. They drop out of school, live off government pensions and the kids wind up being drop-kicks. Several girls I was friends with in primary school now have children, one has two. And I'm seventeen.

If you are 15/16 and you are prepared enough for a child, congratulations and all that. However I don't feel that you can be ready for a child at any stage of your life. Children will always change everything and being so young, there will be things you miss out on.

Augurey, I gathered from your post that you love your son and his father very much, which is good. But were there ever times that you just didn't want that responsibility? Seeing all your friends being able to do things at a moments notice, whilst you'd have to think about baby-sitters and all that?

I don't think I'm making sense anymore.

Picko

September 28th, 2003, 2:39 pm

Augurey, congratulations on going back and finishing school and good luck with college :) Some might say that you are being selfish but I think ultimately in the long run you are doing what's right for both you and your child :)

As for the issue, I had a mate who got his girlfriend pregnant when he was sixteen and she was fifteen. They are still together several years on as far as I know, although admittedly I haven't been in contact with that for a few months. The impact on me obviously wasn't that great because I wasn't directly involved in what was happening but admittedly I felt a little sorry for both of them because of the sacrifices that have to be made to have a child.

tizzy weasley

September 28th, 2003, 3:49 pm

I'm glad to hear you are trying to go to college Aurgery. :) I go to high school, and every so often you hear/see a girl walking through the halls pregnant. And usually they aren't with their boyfriend after that. You're very lucky.
There's one girl in my class that I used to be good friends with. Until last year, I'd see her in the halls and say hi and chat for awhile. This year she started school 2 weeks late. She had a baby. I don't treat her differently, but it's a little weird. I feel sorry for her because she doesn't go out, and is already having difficulty staying together in class. I know she loves her son dearly, but not sure if the father is still around.

As for me, I am not pregnant, and I'm not hoping to get pregnant for a long time..

boxingkitty

September 28th, 2003, 5:21 pm

My best friend from childhood had a baby towards the end of her senior year. She and her boyfriend were originally planning on getting married, but instead they broke up a few months ago. He sees their son occasionally. Right now my friend is working and her mom takes care of the baby. At first it was weird thinking of the girl who used to play dolls with me as a mother, but I won't treat her any differently. Her life is difficult now, yes, but I always have hope that she can turn things around and make the best of what she's got, like what you're doing, Augurey. Good luck with your studies. :)

triki1988

September 28th, 2003, 5:27 pm

Thanks for sharing your story, Augurey. In my opinion, you're one lucky gal. I've heard of stories where the dad just leaves or when they get married, it never works out and it becomes hell for everybody.

I'm not planning on having sexual relations anytime soon, or anything that may cause me to get pregnant (unless a horrid twist of fate comes. I pray it doesn't happen). I don't think I could manage. Besides, it's not like I'm crazy for children and even though it would be mine, I'd play the role of a horrible mom since I'm not mature enough and still a child myself.

SiriuslyBlackDog

September 28th, 2003, 6:26 pm

I think that by you not having sexual relations isnt the way to go not to get pregnant triki...
All you have to be sure is that you are mature enough for the concequences and make sure you take allot of care while doing it,.. Birth control pills also help allot ..a nd condoms are a must.
But going back to the plot.. I have a very close friend who got pregnant and she wanted to abort the baby.. I have never agreed with the abortion thing. But thats not hwat we are here for. She was pregnant and when she found out she told the father of the kid. He got drunk and got himself killed the same night When she told me she was going to abort i told her that I would do everything possible for me to help and I told her abortion is not the way to go. She told me she wanted to abort cause she was too young to have a baby and she said she wanted to spend her time going out and getting drunk not taking care of a baby who she called a ******* I Told her taht I would keep the baby and pay for everything and if she wanted The baby wouldnt even know that she was his mother. She agreed with me.. She said that that was a good idea. The next week. She went and abort it with out me knowing and said she had a micarriage... And her mother called me and said that she had gone to the doctor to abort it.. I was very angry at her.. And I still cant look her streight in the face. She might not have had enough money or what ever it was but I told her that I would take care of teh baby.. She told me the next time we talked taht she didnt want her body to look messed up. To me pregnant wemen Look NOTHING but Beautiful .. I just hope... She learned from her mistake..
If I ended up getting pregnant I would take care of my baby and live for it. Its my off spring I cant just kill it!

Augurey

September 28th, 2003, 8:47 pm

Thanks you guys for the support, it means a lot to me that not everyone thinks i'm a b***h just because i'm trying to do what i can for my kid. Its not like i never see him anyway, Matt (my boyfriend) works pretty much full time and when i'm at college i drop Ollie over my mums house who then takes him to school, my timetable is very varied and if i finish early enough then i pick him up. We spend the weekends together of course and its really fine.
I know that i'm very lucky because i have great parents who are able to support me, i also have a sister who is always begging me to let her babysit, so my boy is very close to his family.

Augurey, I gathered from your post that you love your son and his father very much, which is good. But were there ever times that you just didn't want that responsibility? Seeing all your friends being able to do things at a moments notice, whilst you'd have to think about baby-sitters and all that?
Not so much now, because i'm used to not going out with my friends or whatever, but certainly a few years ago, yes i felt that i was cursed or something but i was just a kid then and you think things differently.

FlyingPhoenix

September 28th, 2003, 9:10 pm

I think girls who can manage this are truely amazing. I can't understand that anybody can or do call them names. Right they are too young but they do the best out of it.
Once I knew a girl, she was really smart I have to say, in my class. It was one year before I end my high-school time as she got pregnant. I thought wow, this isn't the best time for this because all in all two years were still to go. Right she did go to school till 8 or nearly 9. month than she did make a break. Really my school was more as just fair. Anyway she got homework, essays to do so she would get her exams though she wasn't there. after 3 or 4 months she was back at school. Her baby by her mother and this girl did end the high-school. She was probably 6th or 7th best of the year.
Now I think It was pretty smart and that she had pretty much luck that my school didn't suck her. No, they supported her and gave her what she needed. I tell you she won't be one off this girls who don't have any money.
Simply amazing

Lianni Banks

December 19th, 2003, 6:08 am

So does anyone else out there no what its like to be young and a mother or father? do you know anybody who is still in their teens and are getting ready for 'Mr stork'?
I'm just wondering how lives have turned out since that little bundle of joy came along.
thanks
Augurey x

Hi!

I'm turning 21 in Febuary and while I'm not a mother yet I do know two amazing young women who have each had children in their mid to late teens.

One of my closest friends is marrying the father of her 15 month old and they have a great relationship - well, as great as you can get when he works 6 1/2 days a week to support his new family!! My friend is an amazing mother and her son is an absolute joy to be around, he's so sweet and affectionate. My friend was born to mother people - even in friendship she's protective and encouraging - just like she is towards her son. I believe that it's the attitude she takes towards motherhood that makes her child the gorgeous little thing that he is - her relaxed outlook makes him relaxed and he's never grumpy - perfect child I know - we're waiting for their next child to be a little terror! LOL
What is most amazing is that my friend went through her pregnancy alone - save for her partner and myself. Her parents and her partner's parents both live interstate so she really has raised her child in some part, by herself - which I am really proud of.

My second friend has only turned 18 this year and already has an 18 month old. She too is still with the father and although they don't have any current plans to marry soon, they too are very loving towards each other. This young woman has gone back to school to finish her education and while her partner works, their daughter goes to play-group where she learns to interact with other kids. Their daughter has the same spark and cheeky drive that her mother has but she too is adorable.

I know that neither of these two pregnancies were planned but they've happened and both families are doing extremely well. I feel very proud for my friends for taking on board such huge responisibilities because, although I'm not a 'party-hard person' or spend my nights out until 3am, I could not deal with the challenges of motherhood...

It is sad when you see young girls pregnant walking down the street during the week, when majority of their peers are at school and I'm sure the first thing that comes into people's minds when they see these girls is, 'Oh, how irresponsible, she's probably going ot drop out of school and live on the dole'. While that might be a true assumption in some cases, our bodies are naturally designed to reproduce during adolescense and while a woman's education may be halted while she takes the time to bore and raise her child to an age where she can leave it at creche or with family members, having a child is the most rewarding thing a person can do and no doubt, the mother's know more about life-education than their friends in the classrooms.

I say we need to stop thinking of young mothers as irresponsible, wreckless people and instead think of the wonderful life that they are giving! Young mother's have so much to offer their child and should be supported and praised -not frowned upon.

imamuggle831

December 20th, 2003, 9:06 pm

in the 8th grade their was a girl who had a baby and missed like 3 months and failed
that helps support my idea that 20 and up is the age i plan to havea kid

mafiawizard

February 16th, 2004, 6:52 am

There was a girl in my grade eight class who used to sleep around and she thought she would never get pregnaunt since she was only 13. One day she did and she got had a baby when she was 14. It was really sad because people kept calling her names... I am not going to put the names on this since this is a family friendly forum but I think those of you who are old enough get the know what names I am talking about. Anyways the point is she was pregnaunt by a 16 17 year old guy but she does not know who he is. She was only 13 and she hung out with boys who were older than her and her parents want to press rape charges even thought she said yes since she was 13 there is a special term for it.

Kaonashi

February 16th, 2004, 7:25 am

Iv'e seen a lot of 13-14 year old girls end up pregnant and the "fathers" get off scot-free, even though they are much older than the girls.

My hat is off to you, Augurey. Don't let anyone ever try to dim your dreams. You are trying to do the best you can to make life better for you and Olllie, and most of all, you didn't run out and have another child right after the first. Often, the people running their mouths about how you should live your life are the ones that give you the least support. Having a baby at an early age, even though it's not the idea thing to do doesn't stop your show. It might slow it down a bit, but it doesn't stop it. You just learn to do for someone other than yourself, that's all. And I think that the fact that you are tryng to get an education rather than just letting life pass you by is showing that you are trying to do the best for him, and to be a mom that he can be proud of. Your child is not neglected. You are home with him, his nana is there, and most of all, his dad is there too, so I would tell those naysayers to shut up. Just because a mom or dad is home all day with their kids doesn't mean that they are doing squat for them.

What I find really sad is 16 year old girls who have 3-4 children and just...stop living. They have no hopes or dreams, and a better life to them is to find the "right man" who will take care of their brood. Your children will always be with you; that man, however, may not be.

I had my son when I was 21. Went back to college when I was 26, and got a lot of flack from people who were like "Ugh, you're putting your child in daycare? Oh, your son is over at your mom's for the weekend? and other such nonsense (Mind you, NONE of these people were offering any sort of assistance other than their criticism). I would just laugh it off and say "Hey, i don't live with my mom and he needs to see her sometime!" It was hard, but I got thru it (as a matter of fact, I look back on that period in my life and I wonder exactly HOW I did it, (working part-time, going to school full-time, being constantly tired, etc) but it was worth it. When I graduated, my son, his father, and everyone else I loved was there. So don't let anyone ever tell you you can't do it, because you can. Yu hae more of a suppot system than a lot of people. For all you know, those people might be jealous, especially if they have childrn and don't have half of the support system that you do.

Dark Fallen Pride

February 16th, 2004, 7:27 am

I knew someone who got pregnant in 6th grade only she was raped, she kept the baby, she quit school in 7th and that's all I know about her...
There are 5 9th graders pregnant at my school right now, none of them have boyfriends (from what I hear, I don't know them personally, so maybe the do, I don't pay attention to the fish ;) I think they are doing okay, they are still in school) Another girl I know had a baby and quit school last year (she would be in 11th) she has the same boyfriend who got her pregnant and is doing very well. 3 seniors last year were pregnant, 2 of them kept the babies, they made a big deal about the baby showers too, they were doing good last time I heard.

I am not planning on getting pregnant, or even planning on sex untill I am married, and out of school, the chances are that it would ruin my life, because in most cases it isn't for the best (from what I have seen)

Ellesse

February 16th, 2004, 10:48 am

When I was fifteen, a friend of mine that I had known from being very young got herself pregnant. She was determined to keep the baby despite everyone constantly telling her that she was to young. I really admired this girl she didn't let being pregnant stop her from getting on with her life. She was planning starting her own little family with her, her 18 year old boyfriend and the baby. Unfortunatly, when she was eight months pregnant her boyfriend got sentanced to five years in prison for attempted murder.
My friend had a beautiful baby girl and loves her very much. Despite everyones doubts, my friend made a fantastic mum, even without her boyfriends help. I don't think I could have coped the way she did. She has been incredably strong and I am very proud of her.

Benzo

February 16th, 2004, 11:28 pm

I have great parents, ironically my mum is a childminder so she looks after Ollie (although he has just started school) while i go to college to get some decent quilifications. I have been told on countless occations that i am being very selfish, dumping my child with my parents while i go out and enjoy myself, but all i'm doing is trying to make sure i get a decent job so that i can support my kid later on.

Well I can't answer to your questions with personal friends or so, but I did a research a few years ago about pregnant teenagers and you are very lucky that your boyfriend stayed, it is not very common.

I also think that you have a great mother, it is a real chance for you that she is available for Ollie.

People who think you are selfish are completely out of your shoes. You did a tough choice and you are doing very well, those people don't know what it is to have kids or are very narrow-minded. I think you are doing the right stuff and keep on. I envy you that your kid will be an adult and you'll still be young! :cool:

catken7924

February 17th, 2004, 1:23 am

I think teen pregnancy is always wrong. There are just too many bad things, and for every happy-ending case, there's dozens out there that turned out horrid. Now, I don't recall what web pages I found these statistics on, I reserched them a couple years ago for a report on teen pregnancy and teen parenting (2 different things, a cousin of mine was a teen pregnancy statistic, but she gave the baby up so is not a teen parent), and many stuck in my head.

For both mother and child: Both are more likely to suffer from depression and other mental illness, yet are less likely to recieve necessary help and therefore are more likely to commit suicide. Both often are doomed to life-long poverty. Both are more likely to abuse drugs and alcohol. Both are more likely to engage in unsafe sexual practicies (prostitution, sexual abuse by boyfriends, multiple sex partners, not using birth control). Both are less likely to get good nutrition. Both are more likely to die of otherwise minor illness because lack of medical care (insurance).

For mother only: A teen mother is more likely to require an emergency c-section due to her hips being too narrow. A teen mother is more likely to suffer from maternal illness or even death due to poor prenatal care. A teen is less likely to eat healthy (what teen does) and consistantly take prenatal vitamins. A teen mother is more likely to be abusive towards the child, taking out frustration on what "she didn't get to do", or go to the other extreme (which is also abusive) and let the child do whatever he/she wants.

For child only: Babies born to teen mothers are more likely to be low birth weight, which can require time in the NICU, delaying bonding. Babies of teens don't bond as well because teens don't have the capability of knowing how to get their baby to bond. Children tend to do poorer in school both academically and socially, usually due to not attending preschool and inadequate parent/child time in the first 5 years of life. Child is more likely to have aggrivated illness, such as chronic ear infections or respitory infections, due to teens not breast feeding (I know some adults also don't breast feed, but they are more likely to).
Anyone who thinks that it is still OK for teens to have and keep their babies after knowing all this because "so and so had a baby and both are fine" really doesn't understand parenting at all, much less teen parenting. If you were a teen parent and things turned out fine-good for you. You and your kid are one of the lucky ones, and I am more than greatful that the child didn't suffer. But you also should not condone or encourage teen pregnancy, becuase like it or not, the baby is much better off with older people. Waiting is the best idea. If you want a baby and you're only a kid-don't have sex. Get a dog, or a cat, or a bird. Those are all friendly animals (if you train them right) who will love you unconditionally. And as a bonus, they stay small and cute. You can leave them home to go to a party or school or hang out at the mall with your buddies. Babies grow up-alot of girls don't think about that. They think "oh, great, a baby, how cute! I so want one of those!" They don't think that that baby will stay a baby for only about 12-18 months. Then it turns into a toddler. Then a preschooler. Then a child. Then a preteen, then a teen, then a young adult. All have very real needs that have to be addressed by the parent. And all that when you still need parenting yourself? Not the best idea at all.

HollywoodBob

February 17th, 2004, 1:25 am

OK, this may ramble a bit but please bear with me.

Augurey, you're a very lucky young woman, and I'm happy things have turned out so well for you. Ollie is lucky to have a mom that wants to provide for him better by going to university. I'm always glad to hear about people continuing their education.

When it comes to teens having children, for the most part I'm against it. If you had a baby as a teen and you're happy about it, I'm glad. If you're comfortable with the changes it made to your life, that's great, I'm happy for you. This is not an attack on your choices, just my opinion on the subject.

I know three women who had children in their teens, two were intentional, and one was an accident. Of the two that were intentional, they love their children very much and couldn't be happier that they had them, the other, well she had her baby taken away from her by the state because she was a heroin junkie, this came as a total shock to me, she was one of my best friends a year before.

Both of my parents are high school teachers so they also see teens become parents.

So here's the thing, often when teen girls get pregnant they do it on purpose. They don't get the love they deserve at home, and so they decide that if they have a baby they'll have someone that loves them. This is the case with all three of the teen mothers I know. One was so determined that after she miscarried she continued trying for a baby. I know of her home life and it wasn't what I would consider a happy home. She doesn't regret her decision, and loves her daughter very much. Since she couldn't find anyone that loved her, she made someone. I know this might seem a little harsh to say, but I mean no malice.

If you were to ask me if I wanted my daughter to have a child in her teens, I'd most definitely tell you no. As I said, often it reflects problems with the home life for the girl, and I'd like to think that I had provided a better home life.

Note: if you are the parent of a teen mother please don't take this as an attack. I'm not implying anything.

If a pregnancy occurs because of an accident, so be it, accidents happen, and no amount of precautions are entirely foolproof. But I do think that sometimes inadequate precautions are taken, often because parents are unwilling to accept that their children are having sex. I'm sure every parent would like to think that their children aren't having sex and don't plan to until married, and some fathers would like it if even then there wasn't any. :D But the facts are teens have sex, and even if parents don't want them to, there's a chance they will, so it's better to accept it'll happen and try to make your children safe, then to deny it and end up a grandparent before you're ready. :D

Catken, while your statistics may be correct for recent history, I think a lot of scientific studies forget that for hundreds of years, the majority of births were to teen mothers, and in many non industrial nations the majority is still there.

-HollywoodBob

catken7924

February 17th, 2004, 6:30 pm

If I had a teenage daughter who became pregnant, she would be very severely punished. If she chose to have an abortion, she'd be on full restriction for a month. No television, no phone, no computer, no gaming system, no going out, just go to school and come home. After the month was up, she'd resume her normal life. If she chose to continue the pregnancy to term and give the baby up for adoption, she'd be on full restiction for the entire pregnancy and until her 6 week check up. After that, once again, she could resume her normal life. If she chose to keep the baby, she'd be on full restriction for her entire pregnancy and modified restriction for the rest of the time she lived in my home. Modified restriction would include: No more than 2 hours worth of TV a week, no more than 2 hours of computer time a week (if she needed more for school, I'd sit next to her to make sure it wasn't for pleasure), one pleasure outing with the infant a month, mommy will only baby-sit for school-not so teenybopper can go out and party, no guests, male or female, in the house unless an adult family member is also at home, teen must finish high school with a C+ average and go to either trade school or college, upon graduating trade school or college, they must find a job within 3 months and find their own apartment within 18 months. Sounds harsh? Maybe. But so many times I have seen teen girls whose parents make raising their babies so easy that they have more kids, which means more work for the grandparents and more babies with an uncertain and almost certianly negitive start in life.

If I had a son who got someone pregnant, he would also have to be punished. A full month of full restriction, he must either help pay for an abortion, or prenatal care and take part in the adoption process, or if the girl chooses to keep the baby, he must get a part time job and pay child support. He helped make the baby, he has to help pay for the baby. I'd also get him a baby think it over and teach him the proper care of an infant-diapering and holding, but beyond that-he'd be on his own with the fake baby. And he'd also be on his own when he sees his baby on the weekends. He chose to be a father, he's got to deal with it like a real man.

Kaonashi

February 17th, 2004, 7:12 pm

But so many times I have seen teen girls whose parents make raising their babies so easy that they have more kids, which means more work for the grandparents and more babies with an uncertain and almost certianly negitive start in life.

If I had a son who got someone pregnant, he would also have to be punished. A full month of full restriction, he must either help pay for an abortion, or prenatal care and take part in the adoption process, or if the girl chooses to keep the baby, he must get a part time job and pay child support. He helped make the baby, he has to help pay for the baby. I'd also get him a baby think it over and teach him the proper care of an infant-diapering and holding, but beyond that-he'd be on his own with the fake baby. And he'd also be on his own when he sees his baby on the weekends. He chose to be a father, he's got to deal with it like a real man.

In HS I saw kids who got pregnant and the grandparents said "Oh, we'll take care of the baby ALL the time" and as result, by the time these girls were 18, they had three kids because they never learned esponsibility for the first ones. I also saw guys pulling the "it's not mine!" stuff and getting off scot-free. If that wasn't enough of a deterrent, my mom also told us if we got pregnant as teens as far as she was concerned we were on our own, because if we were making a adult decision as far as sex, we should also be adults as far as having a baby was concerned. She also mumbled something about being a babysitter for 5 bucks and hour (and minimal wage was 3.35/hr) and got papers so we could look thorugh the rental sections and see just how much that rent costs, and showed what jobs we would qualify for without a HS diploma. Harsh? It worked. None of us got pregnant while in our teens and living under her roof.

However, I don't feel that punishment is the answer. Things like teaching your children about sex, the possible ramifications (such as STD and AIDS as well as pregnancy) and the "Baby, think it over" should happen well before the teen comes home and says, "Mom, I have something to tell you." Also, teach your young men responsibiltity for themselves, as there's a lot of silly girls out here who feel lonely, unloved, and that a baby is the answers to their prayers and will lie and say they are on birth control when they are NOT, so he should take responsibility for himself regardless of what she says. And if the girl reacts to him putting a condom on, well, maybe he shouldn't be sleeping with her in the first place, because if she doesn't want you to wear a condom, then she probably hasn't worn a condom with other boys and that puts YOU at a risk for STDS and AIDS.

When I was at the gyne a few years back getting a check-up, I saw a young girl in there with her mother. the mother was livid, telling her daughter all sorts of things such as "Your life is over, and I'm going to MAKE you have this baby just to learn responsibility" and other things that I can't repeat here, it being a family forum. That's the type of thing that makes young girls want to drink bleach and fall down stairs. It was sickening.

Teenage pregnancy is never a good idea, but if there's a young lady with goals and is taking charge of her life, making future plans for herself and her baby and trying to get her education despite the huge way her life has changed, and above all NOT OUT THERE HAVING MORE KIDS she should be applauded for taking responisbility, not villified.

On the other side, there's also abortion, but I've seen teens use that as a form of birth control. Which it's NOT. One I can see, but if you're 16-17 and you've had three there's a problem somewhere. I've seen parents just tell their daughters "It'll be taken care of" and it is, but there's no true discussion about why it happened and what you can do to prevent it in the first place. There's no heart-to heart with the child about why she got pregnant, or what she can do to prevent this from happening again. They get grounded like they got an F on a test, go to the doctor, and nothing is fully resolved, or learned. It's like a trip to the doctor to them. Surprisingly, I've seen that the more money a family makes, the more likely it is that the girls will have abortions....paid for by their parents.

Morgoth

February 18th, 2004, 7:54 am

I've re-opened this, but it's under watch.

1. What is your view on teens who become pregnant?

2. Do you think there should be a strong support system in place that would allow teen mothers to raise their child and stick to their education i.e. state funded initiatives such as nurserys in schools, home help, revised curriculum in school or schools set up soley for teen mothers and fathers?

2a. ...or would it be better to have a state funded education program that is sensible in approach, i.e. not just promoting abstinence but safer sex in general?

3. What kind of support should be offered to teen mothers (and fathers) i.e. in terms of state benefits, employment, housing?

4. Is a positive approach better than the harsh realistic one, i.e. the deed is done, let's focus on long road ahead?

5. If you or someone you know is a teen parent, how have you/they coped?

6. What advice would you give to someone who faces life as a teen mother aside from perhaps the obvious?

Answer as many or as little as you like.

lxs234

February 18th, 2004, 11:39 am

1. What is your view on teens who become pregnant?

They probably just made a mistake, and might not always be slut people.

2. Do you think there should be a strong support system in place that would allow teen mothers to raise their child and stick to their education i.e. state funded initiatives such as nurserys in schools, home help, revised curriculum in school or schools set up soley for teen mothers and fathers?

Yes, Yes, YES!!! Teen mothers are young and they need help. Augery did the right thing by going to school. Now she will be able to support her son, even after her mom passes on. They need help, and it helps the child better to help them.

2a. ...or would it be better to have a state funded education program that is sensible in approach, i.e. not just promoting abstinence but safer sex in general?
Well, we do that in school, or at least I do. It is very important, but there are still going to be some people who do it anyway, without protection. Maybe they should do both.

3. What kind of support should be offered to teen mothers (and fathers) i.e. in terms of state benefits, employment, housing?Maybe a little bit more than offered for welfare. They need money to start a new life, and take care of a baby. Also, maybe they should get an apartment. They can't be living on the streets with a child.

4. Is a positive approach better than the harsh realistic one, i.e. the deed is done, let's focus on long road ahead?

Well, adults need to be positive and negative with the teen. If they get away with pregnency too easily, they'll do it again.

5. If you or someone you know is a teen parent, how have you/they coped?

Sorry, I don't know anyone.

6. What advice would you give to someone who faces life as a teen mother aside from perhaps the obvious?

Do what Augery did. You have to go to school if you want to make your child's life as good as possible. It's not their fault you made a mistake. They should be able to get what essentials they need to have an enjoyable life. School will help you get a good job, and make the money to help your kid.

Tane

February 18th, 2004, 3:37 pm

I think both 2 and 2a can not be treated separately as no one is perfect and mistakes do happen regardless of the teen being told about safer sex. If there is a system in place to discuss safer sex, then there should be a back up system for those who fall through the net. I don't think the teen that gets pregnant after being told to use contraceptives or informed of the outcome to have unprotected sex should be ignored though if they did become pregnant.

2. ...or would it be better to have a state funded education program that is sensible in approach, i.e. not just promoting abstinence but safer sex in general?

I think that the state should promote a funded educational program to educate teens in the importance of safer sex in general as it places the responsibility on the teen and no one else if they do become pregnant. The teen knows the consequences of there actions if they do not use contraceptive as most teens will explore such boundaries.

2a. Do you think there should be a strong support system in place that would allow teen mothers to raise their child and stick to their education i.e. state funded initiatives such as nurseries in schools, home help, revised curriculum in school or schools set up solely for teen mothers and fathers?

Absolutely as the welfare of the baby/child should be taken into consideration. Whether there is education or not teens will naturally explore the realms of sexuality and the effect of such acts may lead to early teenage pregnancies. So having a system such as this in place would cover any such event. Every child has the right to an education and a proper up bringing no matter what the circumstances are. The mother will need a job, so strong support during her educational years is just as important in the long term if mother and child are to strive in today’s society.

Having such a system set up within the educational environment would add to aid the promotion of safer sex as the teens can see for themselves the stark reality of unsafe sex within the school. It might form a deterrent.

3. What kind of support should be offered to teen mothers (and fathers) i.e. in terms of state benefits, employment, and housing?

If still in education a teen mother should be offered some state benefit because in the long term they are thinking of improving there employment chances. As for housing it all depends upon how old the teen actually is. If they are old enough to support themselves and a child without parental intervention then housing should be found for them until they find suitable employment and are able to fund for themselves. This is unless the parents are willing to give a certain amount of support. I would not want to see a mother and child out on the street for any reason.

4. Is a positive approach better than the harsh realistic one, i.e. the deed is done, let's focus on long road ahead?

Positive approach in looking towards the future is better than dwelling on the past event. What is done is done and there is no real road back to the way things use to be unless abortion is considered and that is something only the mother and father should consider.

Wab

February 18th, 2004, 3:53 pm

Kudos Augery.

You goofed, you accept that and have gotten on with providing the best you can for yourself and your son.

strwznbrry

February 18th, 2004, 4:36 pm

In answer to all the questions posted.

1. I don't promote a teen going out and getting pregnant but if it happens I say support them in their decisions.

2. I think that programs set up to help teens in parenthood could do a lot of good if they want to use them. Continuing your education can only help you and your child have a better life.
I also think that education teens on the consequences of having children is a way to prevent a lot of teen pregnancies. Let them know that a minimum wage job that a teen has is not enough money to pay for all the things that they will need. Let them know about the tiredness and responsibility they are taking on.

3. Some kind of support system for teens if used properly and not abused by people wanting to live off the system could be a good thing. Some teens can't find the support from family and friends.

4. I think any time you take a positive approach the outcome is better. I think making the teen deal with the situation of having a child is punishment enough in itself even with the support that you could give to them. The teen that has the child will soon learn that they can't go out with their friends on a whim anymore and they have to work ten times harder than any of their friends to make their lives work for them.

5. I have a friend that in her senior year got pregnant. When everyone found out they were all shocked and even a little dissapointed. The thing is after the initial shock everyone backed her up on whatever decisions she made. She chose to keep the baby even though the father didn't stick around. (soon after he was put in jail anyways)
My friend is now married and has three kids (two from her husband) They are making a decent living although my friend never got to go to school. The thing is she never would have done good for herself if she didn't have the support of her family and friends.

6. Motherhood is a big responsibility. Whether you are 17 or 27. It changes your life. Drastically. I think a lot of teens that end up pregnant do so accidentally. I am not saying that some don't do it on purpose but a lot of the time its an accident. I think that in most situations its how its handled afterwards that is most important. Augurey handled herself like an adult and examined her situation and is now benefiting the lives of her and her son. If you have parents that will support you and help you out it is not a bad thing.

I think having the grandparents around to help with raising the child in a situation where the mother can't be around the child all the time because of school and work is a good thing. Grandparents can teach their grandchildren so much and they can give them the love they need.

lxs234

February 18th, 2004, 9:55 pm

Okay, I was thinking:

Girls are getting at the age where they can actually have babies, getting there periods much younger than a while ago. In a century or so, there are going to be 8 year olds with babies. Something has to be done soon. I think they should give girls something as soon as they reach the age to have babies, so they can't get pregnant. Maybe a pill or a shot or something.

Animagi rock!

February 18th, 2004, 10:31 pm

I don't think that would be possible for civil rights reasons.

Even if it were possible, I wouldn't agree with it, as everyone matures at their own rate and it is impossible to set an age limit on when girls afre ready to have a baby. While some teen mothers do just fine, there are people who should never have kids even when they're grown up.

lxs234

February 20th, 2004, 1:41 am

While some teen mothers do just fine, there are people who should never have kids even when they're grown up.

Maybe people should go through tests to see if they are proper for raising children. Maybe they should licenses. It would be a civil rights violation, but the law doesn't always work. So many children have died because the law returned them to their homes. Some teen mothers probably do make better moms than adults.

Kaonashi

February 20th, 2004, 2:19 am

There's a lot of "adults" out there who are arrested for child abuse. Teenage mothers and fathers do not have the monopoly on cruelty.

hermione_fan

February 20th, 2004, 3:23 am

Silvilocks

February 20th, 2004, 8:20 am

I have a friend who is 17 (I think) and pregnant right now. She is actually due the 21st (this sat.). Her boyfriend has also stuck by her and they live in their own house. I feel really bad for her though because her mom practically disowned her. She kicked her out of the house when she found out that she was pregnant. Now she lives in her own appartment with her boyfriend that she can barely afford. Her mom told her that she was never going to even watch her baby or take care of it in the slightest bit. She said that if she ever has to watch it, then she was going to charge her own daughter $10 an hour. That is really wrong. At her baby shower you were suppose to stand up and say how you knew her. Her mom stood up and said a bunch of bad things about her and that she was stupid for getting pregnant and all this other stuff. Regaurdless, she probably did make a mistake of getting pregnant as young as she did but that gives her mom no right to do that to her. If I ever got pregnant, my mom would say I made a huge mistake but she would still help me out and stick beside me.

Actually, her mother has every right to say the things she has. That's not to say that I think her opinion is right, but why shouldn't she voice her opinion. Maybe she does believe her daughter was stupid to get pregnant, just as other parents might believe their children have been morally wrong to have sex too young/outside marriage etc, and got pregnant. Being a parent doesn't mean you have to accept everything that your child has done is right, and certainly not that you can't say harsh things about them as much as anyone else can. Going further than that, IMO she also has the right to kick her out. I know you can't say for certain how you'd act in any given situation unless it happens, but I have real difficulty imagining me suggesting that a teenage daughter carried on living with me and my husband while raising a child. I'd be more likely to tell her to get out. If she's old enough to get pregnant in the first place, she can get out and show she's old enough to start living at an adult.

And as for charging for the babysitting, I'm in favour of it. It's becoming a very common attitude in the UK, that having brought their own children up, many parents are then expected to play a major role in bringing up their grandchildren free of charge, so that the generation in the middle can get on and enjoy their lives without financial or other cost.

lxs234

February 20th, 2004, 11:32 am

The Oracle

February 20th, 2004, 1:26 pm

Actually, her mother has every right to say the things she has. That's not to say that I think her opinion is right, but why shouldn't she voice her opinion. Maybe she does believe her daughter was stupid to get pregnant, just as other parents might believe their children have been morally wrong to have sex too young/outside marriage etc, and got pregnant. Being a parent doesn't mean you have to accept everything that your child has done is right, and certainly not that you can't say harsh things about them as much as anyone else can. Going further than that, IMO she also has the right to kick her out. I know you can't say for certain how you'd act in any given situation unless it happens, but I have real difficulty imagining me suggesting that a teenage daughter carried on living with me and my husband while raising a child. I'd be more likely to tell her to get out. If she's old enough to get pregnant in the first place, she can get out and show she's old enough to start living at an adult.

And as for charging for the babysitting, I'm in favour of it. It's becoming a very common attitude in the UK, that having brought their own children up, many parents are then expected to play a major role in bringing up their grandchildren free of charge, so that the generation in the middle can get on and enjoy their lives without financial or other cost.

And honestly, if any parent disowns or kicks out their child in a time of need then that person doesn't deserve the title of "parent" anymore. If the teen purposely got pregnant and is one to say "Yah mom, it's not that hard. I can do it by myself" then by all means, let her try to do it by herself. Just, if this parent is kicking her child out because she got pregnant...I mean really, there's worse things out there. The teen isn't a murderer, rapist or drug dealer that is putting her parents at mortal risk, it's just a big pain in the butt. But this baby is her grandchild, and I'm appalled to think that this mother is so selfish with her love that she can't extend it to her unborn grandchild. Some parents just want to keep control, and that's not a parent. Sorry.
And yeah, so much for her self esteem. Now the new mom can think she's a complete failure and that of course can extend on into the upcomming years. This is the junk that That One Banned Person thinks is the best way to teach teen moms. *fume*

Zachary1993

February 20th, 2004, 6:59 pm

It's not the teen's fault they got pregant sometimes they just have a baby in their body even though they don't want one.

lxs234

February 20th, 2004, 9:24 pm

It's not the teen's fault they got pregant sometimes they just have a baby in their body even though they don't want one.

That's right. They could have gotten raped, and not known. Ex: Date rape...

Kaonashi

February 20th, 2004, 9:55 pm

Or maybe she was on birth control that failed. Things happen. But just because things happen doesn't mean that that girl's mom does not have the right to feel the way she does. IMO, if you make adult decisions, then you have to deal with it. The mom had every right to tell her to get her own flat, and to charge for babysitting.

With that said, considering the "grandmother's" attitude about the whole affair, the soon to be teen mother has every right to cease contact with her mother. If she is like that with her daughter (putting her down, calling her stupid, etc) at her own shower, I'd hate to see how she's going to treat her grandchild. I mean, honestly. Is she going to be constantly telling the grandchild from an early age what a "mistake" he/she is? Right now, she's all about the negative, and that can have an effect on that child. Obviously if the mom was supportive in some ways my stance would be different. I see nothing wrong with telling your child that they have to experience the real world by moving out, or charging to babysit. But what she is doing to her daughter is borderline emotional abuse. I'm sure at this time her daughter is aware of her feelings, so why keep harping on them? And why do that at her baby shower? That's hideous! I wouldn't want this woman anywhere near my child if I were her, I'd pay that 10 bucks to someone else and join a group from pregnant teens to get the emotional support I needed.

The Oracle

February 20th, 2004, 11:16 pm

*nods* I'm not saying that the grandmother has to babysit for free or even be fully supportive of the daughter, but throwing them out? That's a step too far. Telling them they need to find a place to live and giving them a month or two is something I can accept. Charging $10 an hour just to be spiteful is also going to far also. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that a teen mom isn't going to be able to afford $10 an hour when she's probably making $8 an hour herself.
Anyway, there's a big difference between being supportive of your child in a crisis yet still wanting them to be independant, and being a spiteful, angry, selfish person.

lxs234

February 20th, 2004, 11:28 pm

IMO, if you make adult decisions, then you have to deal with it. .

Is it really an adult decision? She was a teen when it happened, so it was a teen decision. It is like when someone tells you that you are acting like an X year old, when you are really Y years old. However you act, you are an X year old, and so your decisions are X decisions, not a younger age decision. The same goes with a decision that is usually made by people who are older than you. There are plenty of adults who get pregenant accidently. There is nothing wrong with having sex, and getting pregnant is all in the circle of life. So someone gets pregnant young. Yes, it isn't smart, but you can't just make them be by themselves. They would have probably gotten pregnant anyways, just later in life. That baby is going to come whether you want it or not. It isn't its fault its mom might have been careless.

Kaonashi

February 22nd, 2004, 2:59 am

Yery true, but I believe that the decision to have sex is a somewhat adult decision, which is why we have consent laws in this country and you can be arrested for having sex with a thirteen year old. A 11-13 year old might not quite grasp the idea that having sex=possible pregnancy and all that goes with it but those in the later group (16-18) sure should, and you need to ask yourself: is having sex worth even the possibility of getting pregnant? Worth the possibility of perhaps getting NO HELP WHATSOEVER from your family, of having complete strangers comment on you?

It's an adult decision when you do something that will not only affect your life, but also that child's and everyone's life around you, especially if you are still living at home. If you're an adult, you more than likely have your own flat, a steady job or some form of employment, are married, in college, etc and you are standing on your own two feet, and you understand the ramifications of having that child. I'm not sure if a lot of teens fully understand that. They EXPECT their parents to still take care of them, they EXPECT their parents to take care of their children, and they EXPECT their parents to support not only them but also thier children financially. And if the grandparents do these things, God Bless them. But it shouldn't be expected that they will, because you might be in for a nasty surprise. Your parents job is to raise YOU, not you and all of your children. Is it the nice thing to do? Absolutely. Do they have to? Nope. Your child is YOUR responsibility, and there's many teenagers out there that don't grasp that simple concept. And there's plenty more, even after they bring the baby home and are living off their parents will scream at poor Gran and Grampy "YOU CAN'T TALK TO ME LIKE THAT! I'M AN ADULT NOW!" when in the meantime it's the grandparents who are up with that child at night, taking it to the doctor, buying it clothes and formula, and they are only suggesting to you "Um, you need to spend some time with your own child rather than us all the time."

Augrey is very fortunate that she has a very supportive family and boyfriend. On the other hand, Augrey is also out of her mother's house, her BF supports them, and her mother watches the child at the daycare while she is at school. All adult decisions. I've seen some teens, as soon as they give birth are forever pawning their children off on Gran and Grampy while they are out hanging with their friends. Okay, once in a while that's okay, but every day? Nope. You're a mother now. Act like it. Because like it or not, in some cultures, being a parent is the same as having "adult" status. Same wih the fellows. You don't have time to hang out playing basketball all the time, or just hanging out. You're a father now. Get a part-time job to help out. See your child. Be with your child so it knows you and doesn't scream every time you come over.

lxs234

February 22nd, 2004, 12:52 pm

I am in the first group you mentioned, 11 to 13 year olds, and maybe you are right. I am not about to have sex right now, but if I did, there is a possibility I wouldn't understand every single outcome that could happen. I think that is because we are not informed about enough things. We have classes on human growth and stuff at school, but they don't really tell enough. The guys don't know how to wear condums, and the girls have no ideas what to do to protect themselves. We watch videos about how drugs can change your life, and what its like to go through puberty and junk, but not about sex. We don't know how hard it will be if you get pregnant, or if a guy hets a girl pregnant. They haven't really spoken to us about the consequences in debth. They only discuss abstinance, not what you should do if you want to have sex. I think if we watched videos about girls telling how they got pregnant and how hard their life has been, we would undestand more. I do know the facts about results, std's, and other stuff, but it doesn't seem like something that could happen to me. I know it is strange, but the schools need to talk to us more about this. Teen pregnancy changes your life forever, and it always isn't something you can avoid. We just aren't learning that much to prevent it.

Kaonashi

February 23rd, 2004, 1:53 am

lxs234

February 23rd, 2004, 11:55 am

I'm not a huge fan of talk shows, but Ricki Lake did one a few years back that was really interesting. She had a show on teens who wanted to have children, so she arranged to have them switch places with teenage moms for a few days. (yes, they were supervised) After waking up a whole lot to feed the kids, change them, giving them baths and all that other good stuff, all of the teens said that they didn't realize all the work involved in raising children.

I saw a show like that, but on Maury. There were about 6 teen moms, and one mom even had two kids. The girls who wanted the babys didn't get along well with their moms, and they didn't seem to have a lot of friends. I love babies, and when I am older I would love to have kids. I am not going to have one now, it wouldn't be fair to me and the kid.

Wab

February 23rd, 2004, 2:49 pm

They only discuss abstinance, not what you should do if you want to have sex.

This is the great head in the sand ignorance is bliss thing. Although certain authorities hate to think it; kids have sex. The old just say no thing didn't work for drugs and it sure won't work for sex. The better informed young 'uns are the less likely they are to face the twin dangers of STDs and pregnancy.

strwznbrry

February 24th, 2004, 5:29 pm

And honestly, if any parent disowns or kicks out their child in a time of need then that person doesn't deserve the title of "parent" anymore. If the teen purposely got pregnant and is one to say "Yah mom, it's not that hard. I can do it by myself" then by all means, let her try to do it by herself. Just, if this parent is kicking her child out because she got pregnant...I mean really, there's worse things out there. The teen isn't a murderer, rapist or drug dealer that is putting her parents at mortal risk, it's just a big pain in the butt. But this baby is her grandchild, and I'm appalled to think that this mother is so selfish with her love that she can't extend it to her unborn grandchild. Some parents just want to keep control, and that's not a parent. Sorry.
And yeah, so much for her self esteem. Now the new mom can think she's a complete failure and that of course can extend on into the upcomming years. This is the junk that That One Banned Person thinks is the best way to teach teen moms. *fume*
Speaking of disowning or kicking out the pregnant child. I have a friend who's sister got pregnant so her parents decided they didn't want to have anything to do with the sister again. She wasn't even a teenager anymore but she wasn't married and there were other issues involved that the parents didn't agree with. They didn't speak to my friends sister for the first whole year of that babies life. Then one day my friends mom started talking to her daughter again because she really wanted to see her grandaughter and soon her dad decided that he really wanted to be a part of his granddaughters life too. They missed a whole year (one of the most important) of that babies life because they were mad at my friends sister. Then, wouldn't you know it, when my friend got pregnant out of wedlock and with someone her parents didn't like much they kicked her out of the house. They almost made the same mistake again but then the day the baby was being born my friends dad and mom came to the hospital because they realized that they didn't want to miss out on any of this granddaughters life like they did with the other.

I think that in the situation of the parents disowning the children, they are missing out for themselves because they are not only punishing themselves by not seeing the grandchild but also not having the grandchild know them. I think that the parents even if they don't agree with the situation need to step back and think of the consequences of what they are saying when they say to 'get out and don't come back'.

lxs234

February 24th, 2004, 10:13 pm

. Then, wouldn't you know it, when my friend got pregnant out of wedlock and with someone her parents didn't like much they kicked her out of the house. They almost made the same mistake again but then the day the baby was being born my friends dad and mom came to the hospital because they realized that they didn't want to miss out on any of this granddaughters life like they did with the other.

.

Well, I guess that's a little improvement. It must be hard on them though, having two grandkids out of wedlock, but it is hard on the girls too. Maybe if next time another one of their daughters got pregnant, they would be there for the whole pregnancy.

Kaonashi

February 25th, 2004, 1:36 am

There's a difference between telling a teen that they have to live elsewhere and completely disowning them. That's harsh.

lxs234

February 25th, 2004, 11:24 am

There's a difference between telling a teen that they have to live elsewhere and completely disowning them. That's harsh.

Yeah, it is. At what age are your parents allowed to kick you out of the house? I thought it was 18, but I think some people are posting about how younger girls are being kicked out of their houses.

Tane

February 25th, 2004, 2:22 pm

Yeah, it is. At what age are your parents allowed to kick you out of the house? I thought it was 18, but I think some people are posting about how younger girls are being kicked out of their houses.

I know that a child can leave home at 16 with parental consent so I think it is possible for parents to kick out a teen at 16 years and above.

I think it is unfair to disown a teen that is pregnant and offer no support what so ever to them. I would want the best up bringing for my daughter and granddaughter no matter what the circumstances are and I would stand by my child in times of need. Imagine a teen that is going through postnatal depression and no one wants to give her support in the family. That must really hard on both the mother and child.

I hear many parents say that they never got support like what teens expect today but the thing is that the same parent probably wished they did get help with bringing up a child.

lxs234

February 25th, 2004, 9:12 pm

I hear many parents say that they never got support like what teens expect today but the thing is that the same parent probably wished they did get help with bringing up a child.

That is so true. Once again, people are forgetting what it is like to be a teen again.

crookshanksmom

April 15th, 2004, 5:54 pm

I am not a teen parent, but one of my friends had a baby at 17. Although I know most teen pregnancies turn out pretty badly, she had a great family who helped her out alot and it turned out pretty good for her. Her mom ran a home day-care, so her mom watched the baby during the day when she was at school. She finished high school and went to a trade school to learn to be a computer operator and started her first job at 19. She saved up money and was able to move out into her own little house when she was 20. She's 25 right now and is marrying a really great man who treats her son like gold this summer. Unfortunately, the baby's father was a total loser and is serving time in jail for sexually assaulting a minor, so she has nothing to do with her child's father.
Overall, I am against teen pregnancy, but if it does happen, I would hope the girl would have a supportive family would would help her out so she can finish school and even go to college or trade school so she can eventually move out and provide a good life for herself and her child. I do think that the girl's parents should insist that she be the primary care-giver of the child, make sure she is caring for the baby well, but make her do the bulk of the work. I've seen parents who take over everything for the teen, and they wind up having 2 or 3 children by 19, which is unacceptable. One baby as a teen can be understood-she screwed up once or her birth control failed, and while I think it is better for the baby to be given up for adoption, I can understand a girl growing to love her child and not wanting to give it up. But more than one, I just don't get.

lxs234

April 18th, 2004, 9:56 pm

PhoenixUK

April 19th, 2004, 5:45 am

I have no respect for a person who gets an abortion, when they are perfectly capable of taking care of a baby. Yes, but is it really fair to make a person have to spend their life as a young adult, when they might want to be without the responsibility of a child, go through with a pregnancy just because of a principle of "sanctity of life"? You could argue that the child would have a better quality of life in 10 or so years time, when the girl properly wants to look after the child.

Okay, aborting a foetus is never an ideal solution, but sometimes it's neccasery to choose the lesser of two evils.

lxs234

April 19th, 2004, 10:51 am

Yes, but is it really fair to make a person have to spend their life as a young adult, For hundreds of years, having sex was considered and adult thing. Not for teens. If someone thinks that they are old enough to have sex, then they have to accept the consequences.

The reason for so many teen pregnancies now is because people know that if they get pregnant, they can always get an abortion. Get rid of the abortions, and in a few years, there will be far less teen pregnancies.

PhoenixUK

April 19th, 2004, 11:10 am

For hundreds of years, having sex was considered and adult thing. Not for teens. If someone thinks that they are old enough to have sex, then they have to accept the consequences.

The reason for so many teen pregnancies now is because people know that if they get pregnant, they can always get an abortion. Get rid of the abortions, and in a few years, there will be far less teen pregnancies. Actually, I think in the past, people still did have sex young, it's just you had a totally different culture: one where women were expected to stay at home and look after the child. You also had bigger families, of 10-12 children. And, I think having an abortion IS accepting the consequences: you got pregnant, you should sort it out.

Okay, so there may be a drop in the number of teen pregnancies if you scrap abortions, but a greater number will be carried through, resulting in more babies with mothers who cannot or do not adequately care for them. Also, what about those who are raped: you're going to make them have the child of a man who sexually assaulted them? I think it's inhuman to not offer a get-out clause if it exists. Legislation as to a maximum number of abortions would surely be more effective, as is used with the Morning After pill, to deter women who simply use abortion as another form of contraception, which, I agree, is indefensible.

purplehawk

April 19th, 2004, 12:22 pm

I come to this debate from the "other side of the fence." I am a grandmother who, with my husband, stepped up when our son became a father at 18. We didn't know the young woman at the time, but soon learned enough to know something had to be done. She was the eldest of nine children living with their mother in unimaginable filth. Her two youngest siblings (twins) were born one month to the day after our grandson's birth, so you can kind of get an idea of the type of people they were.

After the baby was hospitalized for a severe systemic fungal infection, we offered the young woman our extra bedroom and my services as a caregiver while she finished school. She accepted at once, but for all the wrong reasons. Her interest was in our son rather than her own child and she was quite content to leave him in my care while she pursued his father. Theirs was a tempestuous relationship that often bordered on violence.

Predictably, it all fell apart when the baby was six months old. She stormed through our house calling relatives to come get her, snatching the baby's things out of closets and cupboards, even taking my diaper and baby food coupons from the box they were kept in. I tried to talk to her, warning her that if she went through with her plan she was likely to lose her baby. She threatened me in response and snatched the child out of my arms.

We went through a couple of miserable days... then called an attorney who, upon hearing the full tale, worked well into the night to prepare the papers for filing. The judge agreed that if things in her mother's home were as bad as stated the baby should be removed - and the mom and her siblings as well. They sent Children's Services out there with the local police and found both mom and grandmom away, and the seven younger children in the care of a 14 year old. They had to break into the house as the 14 year old would not open the door. They did, in fact, remove all the children.

We were called shortly after and asked to pick up our grandson because they were working to find suitable foster arrangements for mom and her siblings. The scene at Children's Services was one of unimaginable violence. There were police officers all over the place that night, and it continued unabated over the next two years as we fought our way through the legal system.

"Mom" never did regain custody of her son, although she was given every possible leg up to do so. They permanently removed her from her mother's custody via some kind of emancipation program, recognizing, I think, that she had no hope of getting her child back in that environment. She was originally given generous visitation in her foster home. On the first pick-up, however, she brought in her teen-aged brothers and cousins to ambush my husband, son, and myself. Then she tried to say our son had come there and started a fight. The judge saw right through that (why were all these teen thugs on the premises in the first place?) and restricted her to supervised visitations only. We offered additional time in our home, which she refused.

We eventually agreed to a mediated settlement wherein both she and our son would have "parenting time" with their son, although legal custody would remain with my husband and I. Mom was living in a new apartment complex paid for by the state as a part of her reunification plan. She had one year's free rent and an apartment full of free furniture and a fairly well-paying job. She and my son reunited briefly and she became pregnant almost immediately, then broke off the relationship. This second pregnancy, in her words, would prove her son should never have been taken from her in the first place.

The mediated agreement was overturned in less than six months after Mom's penchant for violence escalated. Our son went into a detox facility (finally) three months before his daughter was born. Within six months more, Mom had been evicted from her fancy new apartment and we lost track of our granddaughter. She and the baby were homeless, living on the streets or in the homes of people she knew. When our son returned home, sober at last, we were finally able to gain some information about her - and the baby girl. She was in a lot of trouble with the law for an altercation that got her charged with felonious assault.

We managed to arrange a brother-sister visitation at our home when the baby came down with chickenpox. Mom was pregnant again by her new boyfriend and didn't wish to risk infecting her unborn child.

My son and I were sitting in the courtroom two weeks later when a criminal court judge sentenced her to three years in the state penitentiary for women. We left the criminal court complex and walked over to juvenile court and filed a motion for custody of our granddaughter. It was granted and she has been with us ever since. Their mother has no contact with the children, although she was released from prison after serving two years.

My grandchildren are safe and happy kids. They live a normal life, or as normal as it can be with three parents. Their father is very much involved with them, even to the point of moving back home to save money to buy a house. His life's dream is to raise his two kids in his own home and it seems likely to become a reality. He is 28 now; the children are 10 and 7.

Perhaps our situation is atypical, but you will forgive me for having a highly negative opinion of teen pregnancy.

HollywoodBob

April 19th, 2004, 3:28 pm

For hundreds of years, having sex was considered and adult thing. Not for teens. If someone thinks that they are old enough to have sex, then they have to accept the consequences.Actually the idea that teens shouldn't have sex is relatively new. In the not too long ago, kids 14 and younger were getting married and having kids of their own. And in some cultures the age is alot younger. In fact it was not uncommon for 30 year olds to have grandkids.

-HollywoodBob

purplehawk

April 19th, 2004, 4:16 pm

It's also custom in some civilizations to genitally mutilate young girls, but that doesn't make it right. I'm not going to argue the merits of when young people should begin to have sex, but I will argue till the cows come home they shouldn't start having children until they're grown up enough to raise those kids properly.

The trouble is, far too many teens think they're just fine in doing just that. My son knew we would help and was counting on us to get his child out of the nightmarish environment the mother lived in. Stupid thing to do. He'd be the first to admit that today and also to urge kids not to venture into child-bearing. Babies having babies is never a good thing.

I've read through this thread and I honestly don't agree with a lot I've seen here. If the young parents who have moved in together are doing well enough to have their own home, their child shouldn't be parked at Grandma's and Grandpa's until they get around to having time for that child. Leaving the kids behind is a cop-out and a selfish one at that. I got my bachelor's and a graduate degree while my husband and I were raising three kids. Was it easy? Heck, no! I was an exhausted wreck a whole lot of the time. I am proud of what we accomplished, though.

Children become attached to their primary caregivers, whomever they might be. My grandchildren are closer to me than they will ever be to their mother or a stepmother because I am the only mother they've known through their short lives. And while I'll be happy for them when they "get to live with Daddy," it will also break my heart to see them leave... to not have them here on a daily basis. They have some of the same conflicted emotions. They each needed to be reassured they'd "still be able to come home" regularly. Home... that says something, doesn't it?

What I'm trying to say here is it's the children and the grandparents who get hurt by these irrresponsible grownup wannabes, not the generation in between.

crookshanksmom

April 20th, 2004, 4:30 pm

I personally agree with you purplehawk. Teenagers shouldn't become parents. But if it does happen, which would you prefer-the girl tossed out on her ear to fend for herself, possibly getting into serious trouble by dealing drugs or prostituting to buy diapers and baby clothes or sponging off of you and I (tax payers) through welfare and WIC, or living at home with mom and dad so she can finish school and make a better life for herself? Alot of the time, when a teen or young adult allows her parents to be the primary care-giver of the child is because poor parenting ALLOWS the teen to do that. In my friend's case, her mother was not like that. If she was not at school, she was taking care of her baby. Yes, it would have been better had she waited a few years, but it didn't happen that way. One thing that I don't like is that teen fathers often have nothing to do with their children. If my teen son came home and told me he had gotten his girl pregnant, I would make him get a part time job to help pay for that baby, and he would also have to see his child at least twice a month for as long as he lived in my home. Girls don't get pregnant on their own, and the boys that get them pregnant should have to take responsibility of their actions-that means at the very least, helping the young mom with paying for the child.

purplehawk

April 20th, 2004, 4:54 pm

Your comments about the father taking responsibility is a good one. My husband and I made our son get a job. He worked nights at Meijer and went to school the following morning. This caused all sorts of problems with the young mother, who didn't feel they had enough quality time together. She completely flipped her cork when informed we expected her to have a parttime job after school and called me "twisted" for expecting her to go to school, work, and take care of her baby.

But if it does happen, which would you prefer-the girl tossed out on her ear to fend for herself, possibly getting into serious trouble by dealing drugs or prostituting to buy diapers and baby clothes or sponging off of you and I (tax payers) through welfare and WIC, or living at home with mom and dad so she can finish school and make a better life for herself? Alot of the time, when a teen or young adult allows her parents to be the primary care-giver of the child is because poor parenting ALLOWS the teen to do that.

The short answer is no, I wouldn't prefer to see that happen. On the other hand, I happen to believe this mentality actually encourages teens to make the wrong decision regarding pregnancy at that age. They expect. They feel it's their parents' duty to help them because we, as parents, have empowered them to make bad choices knowing Mommy and Daddy will make it all right in the end. They make their stupid calculations and shamelessly incorporate their parents' time and financial resources into the equation. And the parents are then trapped into second-generation parenting careers they never asked for, or they are targeted as being the bad guys for not being supportive. Yet the parents wishes were never considered, just those of their wayward kids. That's all wrong.

When I was a teen, a girl who became pregnant had two choices. Marry the father of the her child and make the best of a bad situation, or be packed off to Florence Crittenton or some other unwed mother's home and sign away her baby at birth. Today's girls barely put away their dolls before wantonly getting themselves pregnant. And then they expect - there's that word again - their family and friends to celebrate the "happy event" with a baby shower! I was floored when the mom in my situation informed me I was supposed to host a shower for her. Why should I do that, I asked? "Because you have all the rich friends. How else am I supposed to get the stuff I need for my kid?"

It never occurred to her to think of these things before she chose to bear a child. It's almost as though these girls have the attitude that screams: "I am pregnant and you and the rest of the world owe me."

I find it a sad, sad commentary on the state of parenting in this country that the old classic Sweet Sixteen party has given way to baby showers for teenaged girls.

Edit: I am the mother of two sons and a daughter. Only one of my three got into this mess. My daughter and older son finished college, married their college sweethearts, bought homes and got their graduate degrees long before deciding to have children. I guarantee you their younger brother now wishes he'd followed their lead.

DsX Phoenix

April 20th, 2004, 5:11 pm

Gee, Purp, that post sounds eerily familiar...;)

One thing that I don't like is that teen fathers often have nothing to do with their children. If my teen son came home and told me he had gotten his girl pregnant, I would make him get a part time job to help pay for that baby, and he would also have to see his child at least twice a month for as long as he lived in my home. Girls don't get pregnant on their own, and the boys that get them pregnant should have to take responsibility of their actions-that means at the very least, helping the young mom with paying for the child.

Well, I am not sure how many teen fathers end up having nothing to do with thier child, but that is really not an issue yet. Personally, I agree with you that the father should have an active part in the child's life, but I disagree with the "he would also have to see his child at least twice a month". I think the father should spend a lot more time than that with the child (when you have a closer relationship with your friends than with you child, there is something wrong).

The problem is, teen parents are generally a lot less mature, and tend to use the child as leverage, or as revenge. For example, if the couple broke up, the daughter could say the father can't have anything to do with the child, because she doesn't want to have to see him, or the teen could use the child as leverage similar to what Purp's son did to her.

purplehawk

April 20th, 2004, 5:37 pm

They could, indeed, and they do! Our "mom" snatched the baby from our home because she suspected our son had been cheating on her. The child was gone just seven days, but during that time she refused to let his father see him, adding that he had lost his right to see his son when he cheated on her. No way was she going to let me see the baby. She was well-aware by then that her six-month-old baby boy preferred Grandma and accused me of turning him against her. You read that right. I had somehow brainwashed a six-month-old.

The night we picked him at Children's Services, temporary custody order in hand, she would not relinguish any of his things. Not one diaper or wipe, not his car seat, nor even his bottle. I called my husband at home and he took off at once to shop for the things we absolutely needed to get through the night. The agency loaned us a car seat. When they finally wrested the baby from his mother after the insane violence I alluded to above, he was screaming in terror with his eyes tightly shut. No one could calm him until they put him into my arms. I spoke to him and he opened his eyes and looked at me. A second later he stopped crying and just collapsed on my shoulder, so relieved and murmuring the only word he knew - "Nana." I don't think there was a dry eye on the staff that night.

Maybe some of you will consider her refusal to give us the baby's things as justified, but that wasn't really the case. We had given him everything he owned - and had to repurchase every item of it a second time.

crookshanksmom

April 20th, 2004, 5:41 pm

That's why I said AT LEAST twice a month. More would be ideal. I also managed to get out of my teens without having a child, and I do think it is sad that some teens think they are entitled to have kids and be given hand-outs. But like I said, if it does happen, I'd like to see her supported so she can make a better life for herself and her child. I was told if I had a child when I was still living at home, that I'd be the one taking care of it. I'd also be severly punished-no more going out for me. I plan on telling my kids the same thing. However, I do think that education on contraception is the way to go to prevent teen pregnancies before they happen.

purplehawk

April 20th, 2004, 5:54 pm

However, I do think that education on contraception is the way to go to prevent teen pregnancies before they happen.

Good call :tu: We not only sat down with our three and discussed all the issues in detail, we also took them out and got them the very things they needed to protect themselves. That one of them let it all go in one ear and out the other is obvioius.

FlyingPhoenix

April 20th, 2004, 7:01 pm

I won't talk about if Teen's yhould have sex or not nor will I start about how they should protect. Rather my starting point is the Teen will become a parent says will be father or mother in just a few months. What and overall how could someone in this situation do the best of it? If you are a 15 year old girl and pregnant then is it important, most important of all to get a graduation. A High-School graduation or even manage to get to a College. But overall to take the responibilty for that child. Yes, even 30 year old woman go to work and give their baby over the day to a babysitter.
But the different is most of them do it because they can affort it but Teenager have to do it or they are to much depend on their own parents.

Its probably one of the hardest things in live not just for the Teenager but for his/her parents too. It is not just their life what gos through an extra ordinary rollercoaster drive its the life of their parents too. Everything is going to be upside down, everything a number harder as it must be. This is something what a Teenager should know.

Nice sig Purplehawk. One Gogh which I don't know but its for sure a very beautyful one

Tane

April 20th, 2004, 8:06 pm

What this thread shows is that there is still hope for those who get pregnant at a young age. Life does not stop but can go on and that education can still be completed after bringing up the baby. I think young mothers should get support towards continuing there education after bringing up a child, though I do know there are grants out there for parents continuing education they are not that great. It is one thing being a student but being one and a parent is difficult and those who gain the rewards from an education deserve every credit. Support from both parents is really needed to gain the best for all educational needs within the family though it's not impossible for a single parent to achieve the same goals in life.

Kaonashi

April 20th, 2004, 10:08 pm

It's almost as though these girls have the attitude that screams: "I am pregnant and you and the rest of the world owe me."

Amen to that! A grandparent's job is to be there for their grandkids and enjoy them and do all those special "Grampy" things that kids love, not being the major caretaker. Kids today expect to have these kids and pawn them off on the grandparents, knowng that they will be safe. There are so many children now being raised by their grandparents these days, but thank goodness for them; otherwise there would be a lot more children in State Custody (which IMO is a place that Dante should have included in his different levels of purgatory). But it isn't exactly fair to them, because they love their grandkids and in some cases trying to get their kids to take responsibility would result in the child sufferring. I know a lady who is in her 70s taking care of both her grandchildren and one greatgrandchild to boot; the granddaughter learned from her mother that "Hey, it's okay to have a kid and have granny take care of it." This girl gets an attitude if her grandmother tells her to buy clothes for the baby, and is constantly taking off early in the morning to go God knows where, leaving the baby with Granny. She didn't want to get up at night and change the baby. Why should she, when sooner or later she knew that Granny would get up and do it for her? Granny finally told her to either shape up or get out. She opted to leave and within two weeks was back....apparently the people she was staying with expected her to *gasp* work and take care of her daughter herself! What a concept! Granny let her come back, but with a lot of stipulations: she had to finish HS, get some sort of vocational training afterwards, no more hanging out with friends all the time, and she had to take care of the child herself when she was home. She agreed, and so far, things are going okay.

Your parents should be there as your support system, not as the primary caretakers of your child. A teen parent who is going to school, actively in the child's life and trying to make her life better for herself and her child should be applauded. Because there's so many who aren't.

purplehawk

April 20th, 2004, 10:24 pm

Without coming across like a grouchy old cuss, I don't think it shows that at all.

Instead it shows the headstrong bent toward immediate gratification so prevalent among today's young people, followed by the usual excuse-seeking, help-me-out-here mentality they count on in the first place. There is no incentive for them to be careful enough with their bodies not to conceive and subsequently bring an innocent child into the world for someone else to raise, while they then rest on their laurels and take time to grow up.

Most of these kids are not ready to accept full responsibility for raising their children until they're in or near their thirties. Teens who have had children at 14, 16, 18 and left the babies at home for their parents to raise still speak of ownership of that child in statements prefaced with "my son," or "my daughter." The emphasis on "my" is intentional. With these kids, it's all about them, always... never about the other lives hurt by their poor choices, and, sadly, the life they offer their children are given the least thought of all. That's just no good.

We collectively as parents should be ashamed of ourselves for allowing our teens to grow up with such an attitude of entitlement, of expectation that someone else is going to step up and fix whatever problems they create for themselves. We got rid of the old Welfare Queens (which were maybe a figment of some politician's imagination) and instead have allowed the leeching to continue unabated. Only the pockets have changed; it's now Mom and Dad footing the bill instead of the state. Pathetic!

I don't mean to imply this stupidity is all the fault of parents who are, for the most part, erring on the side of loving their kids. There comes a point, however, when the child is old enough to make decisions on his or her own, and it doesn't exactly take a rocket scientist of a 15 year old to figure out he or she is in no position to raise a child. If that 15 year old gets pregnant anyway, that's a decision he or she made, not one imposed by the parents. Two of my own children heard the lessons we taught and incorporated them appropriately; the one that didn't was always our problem child. I'd be interested in hearing how true that is of most families. It is certainly the case with the vast majority of the group of 8,000 or so grandparents raising grandchildren I belong to.

Thanks, Kaonashi.

lxs234

April 20th, 2004, 11:16 pm

Actually the idea that teens shouldn't have sex is relatively new. In the not too long ago, kids 14 and younger were getting married and having kids of their own. And in some cultures the age is alot younger. In fact it was not uncommon for 30 year olds to have grandkids.

-HollywoodBobNotice the word "married." It would be consindered very wrong to have kids before they were married. They would be shunned by almost everyone. If we did that, maybe it wouldn't be so big a deal. Our society is too **** forgiving.

I know that when I grow up, and have kids, I wouldn't keep them if they had a baby as a teen. I'd still stay in contact, and help them out a little, but I wouldn't do everything for them, or let them live with me. There are so many adults nowandays who did a horible job of raising their children.

Kaonashi

April 20th, 2004, 11:51 pm

I don't think they should be shunned, because you have no idea of the circumstances that the pregnancy occured. What if they were raped but had religious parents who forbid an abortion on religious grounds, or they themselves didn't feel right to abort? Why make a bad situation worse? Stress has a very negative effect on fetuses.

It's very easy to say that you would throw them out the house, but that baby is a part of you, too. And if the baby was in a very negative situation (like Purplehawk's grandchild) if would be hard to turn your back on it. I thnk parents need to put their foot down and let their kids know BEFORE something happens that if they did get pregnant or impregnated someone, that Grandma and Grandpa will NOT be coming ot the rescue, they WILL have to find a place to live and pay rent and daycare and how are they going to do all of those things without a diploma?

I mentioned somewhere in this thread all of the things my mom did to put the FEAR in us, and it worked. None of us got knocked up under her roof because we knew what would happen, and it wasn't pretty.

Another mistake I see parents do is after the baby arrives they completely take over the care and nurturing of their grandkids to the point that every time the kid DOES try to take care of the infant they hear "Oh, you're not doing it right, I'll do it." Or "no, don't get up. It's late, you need your rest, I'd do it." By all means if the new mom is doing something wrong show her differently, but don't take over doing what should be her job. Because eventually they won't even bother to try, feeling that "Well, my parents do everything anyway, so what's the point?"

swishandflick

April 21st, 2004, 12:09 am

As far as teen pregnancy goes to begin with, I think parents need to keep an eye and be realistic about what type of kid thier teenager became. If your daughter is boy-crazy and has dated 3 guys before age 11, thats really dangerous for her. Its great to let kids have freedom, but that's different from letting your daughter go wherever she wants and date whoever she wants.

I think that sex-education is important but nothing can substitute respect for your parents. I have an immense amount of respect for my parents, and when I was 12 I knew that if I stepped a toe out of line I would just get that look of dissapointment in thier faces, not to mentioned be grounded for life with no television or phone.

My cousin is 20, and about to be a father. It is an unnplanned pregnancy, so I've been really concerned about him the past few weeks. He is more immature than I am in alot of ways, even though he and the girl are technically adults. My grandmother and his parents are going to help him out in raising his son. My grandmother took care of me most of my childhood because my mother was always working, so she likes to have children. My uncle, however, is probably going to come out the worst in this. He already takes care of my grandmother and his two daughters. Now he also has to take care of a grandchild.

I always imagined my cousin to be a good father when his time comes, but he is not ready. Now he just has to take whats coming and step up and be an adult. As far as I'm concerned, having sex is a very adult decision. My cousin knew perfectly where babies come from, he should've known better. I guess its too late now and all I can do is try and help him out and support him because he is already getting the yelling and screeming from his parents.

purplehawk

April 21st, 2004, 12:18 am

Another mistake I see parents do is after the baby arrives they completely take over the care and nurturing of their grandkids to the point that every time the kid DOES try to take care of the infant they hear "Oh, you're not doing it right, I'll do it." Or "no, don't get up. It's late, you need your rest, I'd do it." By all means if the new mom is doing something wrong show her differently, but don't take over doing what should be her job. Because eventually they won't even bother to try, feeling that "Well, my parents do everything anyway, so what's the point?"

You have an excellent point there, Kaonashi. I tried very hard to avoid just that situation from occurring when the young mother moved into my home. We furnished a nursery alcove, basically buying everything the baby would need and his parents would need to care for him properly. Mom was expected to be in school from 9:00-3:00, on her parttime job from 4:00-7:00, and at home caring for her baby until time to go to school the next day. My son was in school from 9:00-3:00, doing childcare and homework after school until time to go to work at 11:00 PM. They were expected to bank half of their salaries and to buy at least one package of diapers and/or a box of Similac each pay day. I offered help and advice but never "took over," per se, until much later.

And you know what? Neither of them could hack it. She was never content with the amount of time they were home together and when they were both in the house, they were constantly watching TV or falling asleep where they sat - or worse yet, arguing over whose turn it was to take care of the baby. They woke me in the middle of the night, swearing they couldn't "get the bubble" and needed me to burp the baby. Judging from the baby's wailing, it certainly sounded like he needed help.

I came home from an afternoon's shopping one day to find the baby wailing in obvious discomfort and his stupid parents stuffing one bottle after another into his mouth in an attempt to shut him up. One whiff gave the answer to his distress. The trouble is, they were so busy fighting over who was going to clean him up! No one did until I came home to find him with a completely soaked diaper and a severe urine burn.

It all came to a head when school broke for the summer. I'm an earlier riser and I listened for weeks to that poor child waking up around 7:00 AM and his mom stuffing another bottle in his mouth. The child would suck himself back to sleep time after time, but mom would never rise before noon. My son was no better. He slept through it all and had a fit if someone dared to wake him.

I finally walked up and knocked on her door, asking if I could bring the baby downstairs. She said yes so quickly it was shocking. And I had the privilege of seeing this highly intelligent little guy discover the dawning of a new day, of breakfast, of having a bath, of playing with Nana. He is a morning person to this day; yet his parents missed all the wonder of those days.

It wasn't a case of Granny taking over here, but instead a complete abdication of care and responsibility on the part of the parents. And the minute I tried to object, I was told he or she would "take my child and leave." So they went to pains to use the baby to manipulate me.

Kaonashi

April 21st, 2004, 7:57 am

That's totally different. What I was referring to is situations where the teen mom wants to take care of her child, but her parents will sit and criticise her, scream "you're doing it wrong!" and rather than just showing her the right way and letting her do it they do it themselves. Over and over again.

lxs234

April 21st, 2004, 11:08 am

What if they were raped but had religious parents who forbid an abortion on religious grounds, or they themselves didn't feel right to abort? Why make a bad situation worse? I am not talking about rape! Yes, nowandays there are quite a few of them, but not all unplanned pregnancys are from rape. Very few of them are, and I bet some rapers are even smart enough to use a condum.

I am talking about a guy and a girl, getting caught up in the moment, were too stupid to remember to use a condum. (If they didn't have one, they didn't have to have sex.) This got the girl pregnant, because of carelessness. If she really doesn't want the baby, then she could put it in adoption.

purplehawk

April 21st, 2004, 1:41 pm

I think rape accounts for an infinitesimal percentage of teen pregnancies. The vast majority are the result of the girl's determination to create for herself a real live baby doll. They blow it off with the standard excuse - "I made a mistake" - but in reality it translates into "I did exactly what I set out to do."

There was a time when parents were primarily concerned with protecting daughters from hormonal teen boys. It was certainly that way with me - my dad made a career of it - and it was also true with my only daughter. Times have changed radically. It's now necessary for parents to be equally concerned, if not more concerned, with their sons and the horrific job of protecting them from predatory females.

Somewhere along the line we, as parents, have forgotten what it is to be a child and have stupidly encouraged our kids to grow up too fast. It sickens me to see the way 13 and 14 year old girls dress today. Many of them look like they belong on a corner in a red light district, flagging down cars, instead of studying hard in school. What on earth are their parents thinking?

I taught my children to dress appropriately, knowing the message clothing can send to an outside observer. They were allowed to choose their clothing, but they chose within the confines of what was acceptable in our home. Nothing too trendy, mind you, but instead solid classics that have stood the test of time. More importantly, they covered what ought to be covered! :wow:

My kids weren't allowed to date until they were sixteen years old. My teen father did everything he could to circumvent that rule and every other rule, now that I think about it, and look where it got him! Sixteen wasn't an arbitrary number. It's just the age when kids are already well-established in school and have had a chance to demonstrate some maturity in making decisions. Sixteen meant a drivers' license and a car and also a parttime after-school job. Solid rewards for solid performance.

crookshanksmom

April 21st, 2004, 5:16 pm

Teen pregnancy is a serious problem in the United States. I visited a friend who had an old issue of the magazine GLAMOUR, and it said in there that over 400,000 American teens have children every year. Of those, over 7,000 are UNDER the age of 15. What is a 14 year old (0r younger!) child doing having sex? Where are the parents in these cases? I can understand a 16 or 17 year old having sex, even though I don't agree with sex while you are still in high school, but there's something wrong with parenting if your under 16 year old CHILD is having sex.

I also think part of the problem is the media and society's view on teen parenting. I honestly think that the media sort of glamourizes teen pregnancy. Shows like Grounded for Life, Reba, and Gilmore Girls (two of which, I admit, I enjoy) show how lovely and happy life is after a teen pregnancy. How easy things are for the teen moms (and dads). Then there are movies on Lifetime such as FIFTEEN AND PREGNANT and TOO YOUNG TO BE A DAD in which, once again, life goes on just lovely after a teenager has a baby. I think they should show a girl having to scrape together pennies to buy diapers, show a teenager sobbing over her low-birth-weight infant in the NICU (low birth weight is common in babies from teens), show her getting arrested for stealing, show her having her child taken away from her due to poor parenting-anything but an easy, happy life. And when society sees a teenager with a baby they don't scowl at her and shake their heads any more. The coo and exclaim over the "cute baby". What teen drama queen wouldn't want that sort of attention? We as a society are far too permissive over little girls having kids.

purplehawk

April 21st, 2004, 5:59 pm

And when society sees a teenager with a baby they don't scowl at her and shake their heads any more. The coo and exclaim over the "cute baby". What teen drama queen wouldn't want that sort of attention? We as a society are far too permissive over little girls having kids.

I couldn't agree more, Crookshank. We as a society, and as parents, have lost the old morals that were counted upon to keep everyone in line to some extent. There were swift and sure repercussions for "loose" girls. Someone is going to post back that those sanctions were unfair because boys are just as responsible as girls. Sure, it does take two kids to create a teen pregnanacy - but it takes just one to bring their hapless child into the world. The choice to conceive and give birth - then and now - still rests with the girl, not the boy.

In the days when morals still counted, boys could be counted upon to know which girls would and which wouldn't. Those who would were never brought home to meet mom and dad. Nowadays, it seems they all do. There is no distinction between a good girl and "that kind of girl." I personally loathe the loss of those morals because with their demise we lost a lot of what childhood is supposed to be.

crookshanksmom

April 21st, 2004, 7:16 pm

I agree purplehawk. I lothe the fact that it's perfectly OK for girls to start having sex at 14 and for everyone to see it as normal for a girl to have had 10 sex partners before marriage. It may not be a popular view, but I think those girls and boys that have so many partners as sluts. I don't think that boys should get off scott-free if their girl does get pregnant though. If she wants an abortion, he should pay for half of it. If she wants to give it up for adoption, he should help her out in finding the right lawyer/agency and help in picking out the child's parents. And if she does want to keep it, he should be expected to help to pay for it. But we do have to tell our sons to ALWAYS use a condom. Even if the girl says she's on the pill or some other form of birth control, he should insist on using one. Birth control is not 100% and it's easy to forget to take a pill every day, especially when you're young. Plus, girls have been known to lie to guys about being on the pill, either because she wants the baby or because she wants to trap the guy into a relationship he wants out of. Lastly, he doesn't know where that girl has been, who's she's been with, how many partners she's had-protect himself for his OWN sexual health.

Masterfroggy

April 21st, 2004, 7:51 pm

While I agree with what some of you have posted, I have to point out that from a historical point of view there are errors populated by television and films

Going back in history, marriage happened when a roving preacher was passing, some couples had set up home and survived the birth of their first child before this happened, and until the beginning of the nineteenth century not every village hamlet had a full time church official

Secondly marriage was often blessed with a child already conceived, a lot of ‘Victorian morals’ happened in the Victorian times and not before, things that we take for granted as being the ‘old way’ of doing things were enforced in the puritanical age of Queen Victoria, as I have pointed out marriage happened later on in some relationships, both parents worked full time often long hours, grandparents looked after hordes of children,

Note biologically older women go through “menopause “ specifically so they are not a breeding threat to their daughters offspring, and are therefore safe to be allowed to look after other women’s children.

But as has been pointed out that was a long time ago, and just because it was the norm does not make it right, in my grandmother’s day it was normal to give pacifying drugs to babies so they would sleep for large parts of the day “laudanum” was a common component of such soothers.

In my mothers day children were given brandy and full fat cream to help the babies to sleep at night, children were wrapped up in thick bundlers and put in cots next to blazing fires so the did not get a chill, babies were washed weekly, it did not pay to expose a child to the air in case the vapours weakened it’s bones. All practices that are know to cause 90% of cot deaths in children under twelve months of age

Getting to my point, if you rely on history to support your case for any thing, it is a weak prop, as history is not as written, it has to be lived.

Children are a reflection of their parent’s moral, and their educational system morals, and lastly their friend’s morals. Unless a child is home schooled it will be influenced by the latter two, I know that in today’s society the easy route is now considered the best way, but that is not the truth, I have heard hundreds of mothers and fathers all using the same argument:
“I am sick and tired of tell you this” or any of the hundreds of versions that are all along the same lines.
They give up, and the kids take over because they know that all they have to do is ignore what they are being told and eventually it will go away,

I have a daughter and I have to reminder her a hundred time everyday to do things from practise her reading and writing to saying ‘please’ and ‘thank you’ when she wants something, and no doubt I will continue to have to remind her until she is in her mid teens,

Parenting is all about setting rules and sticking to them no matter what. I started teaching my baby from about ten days old, to say please and thank you, by the time she was at an age to understand what I was doing it was already imprinted on her mind that this is what she had to do to get the thing she wanted.

I have found that you can not rely on others to teach your child what the need to know. Morals are just an aspect of parenting rules, if you don’t want to allow you child to do something don’t let him/her. No matter what others tell you, Getting pregnant at an early age is outside of the moral that I am teaching my daughter, My daughter knows right from wrong, and has done from a very early age, she would no more steal from another person, because she has been taught the consequences of such action, nor will I allow another child to steal from her, (as her friends will testify ) If taught from a very early age that for every action, there is a reaction, and both have consequences, even a child with low IQ can learn and avoid trouble if taught this,

My daughters friends are vetted both at school and at home, and if I feel that there is some one that I do not want my child to play with, I prevent it, The school system is the only thing I have no control of, but by reinforcing the morals at home I can prevent the lackadaisical school moral code from affecting my daughters growth as a person

To trying to teach your child morals at six or seven or even later is too late and relying on others to teach your child anything important, is foolish.

Re introduce moral now and in two generations time we will be able to avoid the effects of action + reaction = Nothing

purplehawk

April 21st, 2004, 9:44 pm

Thanks for the history lesson, Frocks, my friend - but I wasn't talking about history in any of my posts. I am old enough to have lived through the 1950's, the last decade in which morals were strong within society. I can remember not being allowed to play with "Marilyn" and "Elaine" because their elder sister had two children out of wedlock as a teen. I can remember pregnant girls being removed from regular classrooms and required to attend adult high school at night. They weren't allowed to resume school after giving birth either; their records were stamped "parental responsibility" and they either finished at night or quit altogether. I can remember my brother having a brief - very brief - relationship with a girl who had a child and my father intercepting her first telephone call to our house and telling her not to call again.

I am old enough to have been there when Roe v Wade was first being debated. I was there to hear my mother and grandmothers bemoaning the fact it would mean the end of morality in society, not to mention leading to epidemic numbers of out-of-wedlock pregnancies. Those women now seem like seers.

If I could change anything, I would reinstate the "parental responsibility" sanctions and use DNA testing to identify the boys who fathered the children and have them suffer the same consequences.

lxs234

April 21st, 2004, 11:15 pm

I am old enough to have been there when Roe v Wade was first being debated. Huh? What's that?

If I could change anything, I would reinstate the "parental responsibility" sanctions and use DNA testing to identify the boys who fathered the children and have them suffer the same consequences. I agree. Even though I was't alive when there were lots of moral and stuff, I wish there were more now. Our society is falling apart; it really is.

purplehawk

April 21st, 2004, 11:40 pm

Roe v Wade was the lawsuit that led to legalized abortion in the U.S.A.

Masterfroggy

April 22nd, 2004, 12:21 am

Purp you are the last person I would ever think to give a history lesson to, but others have posted “it was as bad as this in the good old days” type arguments mentioning 12 and 13 year olds getting married and all that stuff,

Comparing then to now is like saying we have not learned a single thing worth learning in the last 15,000 years when average age at death was 36 (as far as they have been able to tell from the few intact skeleton)
Just because in history it happened does not meant it is good, as history is a poor judge,

Morals were alive and kicking in my parents house and is still alive in my sisters and brothers families.

It’s just too much like hard work for a lot of people and they are the ones that need the help of “interfering old busy bodies” to remind them that life and raising is children hard work and not really like you see on TV, but it is rewarding when you get it right. Bring back the rights of parents to raise their children without interference from the state and teach the next three generations of children / parents the correct way, punishment and reward, actions and consequence, and the most hate word in modern times Responsibility,

I am not saying that physical punishment is the answer, but imprisoning a man for smacking his child on her behind once (the judge rule that as it was in public the smack was humiliating to the child and has offered the child counselling, the father is on the sex offenders registry as an abuser)
Society has lost it way, and we the population are at fault if that is allowed to continue (I know that this is not the place to talk about smacking)

Little children do not need to become parents, but parents need to look after little children until they can think correctly for themselves, be that at 18 or 21 or older,

lxs234

April 22nd, 2004, 12:45 am

Roe v Wade was the lawsuit that led to legalized abortion in the U.S.A.Oh. Those stupid people. I hate abortions.

Masterfroggy

April 22nd, 2004, 12:52 am

Abortions are not bad it’s the morals of the people who use them as a legitimate form of contraception, which upset me.

purplehawk

April 22nd, 2004, 12:52 am

Morality is very much alive in my home too. One of my kids failed abysmally; the other two did well and continue to do so. Interestingly enough, it's the one who didn't who is toughest about toeing the line today. They all give their children choices but the things the kids choose from are thoughtfully considered before the fact.

I would hate for Miss Priss, for example, to be caught by her father wearing one of these hoochie-mama style micro-mini skirts... you know, the ones that come one-half inch below the elastic leg holes of their panties? The suggestive nature of clothing of that type ought to raise a red flag in the eyes of any attentive parent, but it seemingly does not. Moms are too concerned with their kids being popular these days and all too willing to "give" to help the kids accomplish it. They don't seem to to realize they're endangering them far more by not laying down firm rules of conduct and dress, among other things. I could never market any daughter of mine as a prostitute; yet I see kids dressed that way every day.

Masterfroggy

April 22nd, 2004, 12:58 am

People seem to think that fitting in is more important than living a good life, one with quality, joy, and honesty. Wearing a hoochie-mama style micro-mini skirts is wrong even for an adult, it says things about you that may not be true, we have to change society idea of people worth 'looking up to' and dressing “starlets” like street walker is not the way to go about it,

purplehawk

April 22nd, 2004, 2:05 am

Yep - and the parent has to stand up and be the parent, for gosh sakes! Don't give in because your kid is in a snit and screaming that "everyone else wears them," or hysterically shouting that you are ruining her life by making her dress appropriately. It is not required that you and your kids are best friends. What is required is that you parent your kids. The friendship will come in time, when she's an adult, and it will be a friendship based on love and mutual respect. I have that with my daughter and wouldn't change the way our relationship has evolved for anything in the world.

Kaonashi

April 22nd, 2004, 2:40 am

It used to be that you had to worry about your daughters. Now you have to worry about your SONS getting involved with some girl that has no direction and only goal in life is to get pregnant by someone half-way attractive so she can have a "pretty baby." These chicks will lie about contraceptives, poke holes in condoms and do other things to obtain her goal. On the other side, there's teen boys who genuinely WANT to have children (either to have a lasting atachment to the girl, or just to feel loved, just like the girls) so we have to educate our young men too.

On the "hoochie mama gear" debate: There's a time and place for everything. In a nightclub? Sure. Going to school wearing clubbing clothes? Nope. Walking home after a hard day? Nope. These days these idiot johns will approach a woman wearing a full-length coat with curlers in her hair. And if something bad did happen and you went to court, the defense would have a field day describing the clothes that you had on, and swear up and down that you were "asking for it" as if people don't have control over their behavior. "It was the dress that made me do it!"

What makes me sad is when I see 9 year olds completely hooched out. It makes me want to scream at her mother "WHY DID YOU BUY THAT FOR HER??"

purplehawk

April 22nd, 2004, 4:24 am

You know, I'm a bit concerned kids are no longer posting in this thread. (My apologies to any of you who are posting but don't have visible ages for old ladies to read). I suppose most teens won't appreciate much of what's been said here, but I would personally love to hear from them.

DsX Phoenix

April 22nd, 2004, 4:36 am

Well, it's kind of hard to argue with a woman who's raised three children, and has at least one grandchild (I think I remember you having a couple more, but I don't know for sure).

Besides that, most of what has been said is fairly accurate. While I do not think [i]all[i/] of the parts of yesterday should be brought back, I do agree with the idea that parents should have more authority over their children.

lxs234

April 22nd, 2004, 11:27 am

Now you have to worry about your SONS getting involved with some girl that has no direction and only goal in life is to get pregnant by someone half-way attractive so she can have a "pretty baby." These chicks will lie about contraceptives, poke holes in condoms and do other things to obtain her goal. That's true. If they do get a girl pregnant, you are going to want them to help with the baby. You will be just as dissapointed in them as you would in a girl.
The boys don't seem to be as scared about pregnancies as girls. They still are, just not as much.

You know, I'm a bit concerned kids are no longer posting in this thread. (My apologies to any of you who are posting but don't have visible ages for old ladies to read). I suppose most teens won't appreciate much of what's been said here, but I would personally love to hear from them.
I'm a kid/teen! I'm thirteen. This is a very important issue, and I don't understand why it is basically just the same people posting over and over....
I hope this does'nt reflect too badly on society.

purplehawk

April 22nd, 2004, 12:47 pm

It could well be termed as the most important domestic issue facing us today. What disappoints me most is the ease with which people continue to blow it off and go merrily on their way.

DsX, I have five grandchildren and a sixth due in mid-June. Four of them came the old-fashioned way, through the marriages of my older son and daughter. I think this newest bambino will be the last for a while :shrug:

The Oracle

April 22nd, 2004, 1:25 pm

I'm a kid/teen! I'm thirteen. This is a very important issue, and I don't understand why it is basically just the same people posting over and over....
I hope this does'nt reflect too badly on society.

No, just many of us have been through this issue before, this is I think the 3rd incarnation of this thread/issue on this forum. Some of us have said our peace and it might take a bit more for us to rev up the debate engine again. If you have any questions as to what some other's opinions are, there's the old, locked threads you can still browse through. :)

purplehawk

April 22nd, 2004, 1:44 pm

I didn't realize that. Thanks for the heads-up, Oracle!

FlyingPhoenix

April 22nd, 2004, 3:12 pm

Well, I don't agree with everything what had been said on this thread though I may understand where you coming from but still I disagree at some points.
What I learned in my rather short life is that children’s are always a reflection of they own parents sometimes you have luck and if you look into the mirror you see yourself just like you are but at other times you see everything what you are not. It is all nice and fair to say that if you teach your kid moral and what it should say and what not but this can back fire so easily. Right, you teach all this your child and teach that if it dos any wrong to have to bear the consequence’s but mind you if this child did never learn why it should do so then you can count on it at least if its 13 or 14 you have a child what won't listen to you anymore.

The key point is that a child needs to learn things self and to understand things by it own way. You can't copy your own morals on your child this impossible you might be a teacher, you might be a mentor but never the child itself. That's one of those reasons why I can't stand if someone says "My child because you are not the owner, it isn't like a car or a house what you did buy and can keep it till you die. Right, a child is an individual and each one is different, says you may teach twins the same things but each one will turn out different because they understand and interpret things different. It dos not well if you just play or act very morally if your child is around and it can if its smart enough sense the false acting that’s why it dos nothing if you act on intention and says always "Thank you" or "Please".
Then if we want to play it completely out you can shout "Thank you" or say it very sarcastic it dos nothing if you just say it. This formal saying of things aren't even needed if you voice it kindly or polite enough like "Can you give me the newspaper?" in a nice voice that is already enough.

The reason why I'm against such formalism by indentation is because that is most likely not what will be mirrored because this acting isn't really you. What I believe what might be something what children’s can learn if the parents are always honest to it, don't act, don't play someone else but just them self. If you are honest and even discuss difficult things with your child this will be the very ground that your child is honest to you too.

In that case I had personally probably such a lesson in life where I had to learn that my parents aren't always strong that they might depend on me like I depend on them. My parents didn't hide fears or if they cried or felt as if they aren't able to solve something I didn't grow up in a perfect world where I could always think if something went wrong my parents will solve it, not my problem. You see what I mean if the child get the impression every problem will be solved by the parents then they can hardly learn to solve it them self. If always the parents make a decision says this and that is forbidden or not allowed and your child is following this strictly then it might be never be able and decide itself.

To this comes that if you have more as one child let say two or more it's often you are maybe unaware different to each one and the children's sense this. From my own experience you must know I have an older brother and I did and still feel that my mother seems to love him more. I certainly know it isn't like that my mind knows this but not my heart. The reason for this is that I was always some what more independent even as child, my brother not. My mother or better my parents did never try to make him to become more independent I guess its somewhat that they like to think he won't leave them. It started all as we were child’s my mother was forced to take more care for my brother as for me cause I was an easy child at least easier as my brother thats why my mother was always closer to him as to me. In this years I learned to become more and more independent and might have now a quite different view at things as she has.

Now by my mother it was that one child was easier as the other one to manage by others its esp. if there are more children’s its that the easier one get more attention, more pride as the difficult one. Its like that and I suppose its life. This are reasons why children's turn out how they are that's why I doubt just because of clothing’s a child turns bad because there exist in other country's in other cultur's people who wear a lot less. As example try the Brazil carneval mind you just because they run like that around don't say they turn automatical into a slut. If a teenager had already many Boyfriends or Girlfriends its to ask dos it even know what love is? If it don't know it then I did wonder why? Answer it didn't feel it, it doesen't know how be loved feels like. In that case I did think there went something terrible wrong.

Like a said children's are a reflection of our own sure they play different aspect with like school or college but if a child knows where home is, where the place lies where it find honest then nothing can turn this reflection into a horrible grimace

swishandflick

April 22nd, 2004, 4:16 pm

There is a difference between letting your child be independent and learn from thier mistakes to forcing your morals down their throats. I say "your child" because, after all parents did give thier children life and they were there to deal with the diapers, snot, and ear aches. In my opinion, saying my child is not meant to be a possessive thing. When my mother says, "My daughter loves blue," I'm actually proud that my mother cares enough to know what my favorite color is and cares enough to talk about me to other people. Sometimes it can be embarrasing, but I really think she does it with good intentions.

About independence, its great to have children form what they are interested in and form thier own morals. Its possible to do that without becoming a clone of your parents. I'm a democrat, my parents are republicans, I support gay marriage, they don't. Its not as if because my parents told me that I couldn't wear low cut shirts I have the same opinions as them.

I understand what you mean by the "perfect child" and the "difficult one." I'm an only child, which means I get all the attention and most of the cliches. However, its not like being perfect (or at least trying to be) means that it makes my parents love me any more. For example, sometimes I think that I act this way because if I'm not "perfect" my parents aren't going to love me as much. However, this isn't really true because part of being a parent is loving your child unconditionally.

Being the difficult one means less expectations. My cousin is able to get away with alot because he was always thought of as "more difficult" than I was. He recently got a girl pregnant, and his parents are being very supportive. If I were to get pregnant, my parent would have a heart attack from the shock along with the screaming, crying and dissapointment.

DsX Phoenix

April 22nd, 2004, 4:45 pm

The key point is that a child needs to learn things self and to understand things by it own way. You can't copy your own morals on your child this impossible you might be a teacher, you might be a mentor but never the child itself. That's one of those reasons why I can't stand if someone says "My child because you are not the owner, it isn't like a car or a house what you did buy and can keep it till you die. Right, a child is an individual and each one is different, says you may teach twins the same things but each one will turn out different because they understand and interpret things different. It dos not well if you just play or act very morally if your child is around and it can if its smart enough sense the false acting that’s why it dos nothing if you act on intention and says always "Thank you" or "Please".
Then if we want to play it completely out you can shout "Thank you" or say it very sarcastic it dos nothing if you just say it. This formal saying of things aren't even needed if you voice it kindly or polite enough like "Can you give me the newspaper?" in a nice voice that is already enough.

Using possessive words when describing a person does not mean you believe you own the person, it is identifying a relationship with someone. You said my mother later in this post, does this mean you believe your mother is your property? No, it means that you own that relationship with her.

And I agree, children are going to turn out how they want to turn out in the end, but it is important for parents to set guidelines, and to make certain decisions for children when they are not ready to make those decisions. Would you let your 6 year old decide if they wanted to go to school and get an education? I would hope not, because a 6 year old doesn't have the experience and knowledge to know how important an education is. Just like, when teaching children to use words like "please" and "thank you", you are not necessarily teaching them to use those words, but rather, to simply be polite. I'm sure when froggy's daughter is older (probably much older), he will not punish her if she doesn't say please, as long as she isn't rude about it. Just like when I was younger, I was forced to say sir or ma'am everytime I talked to an adult. Now, I still do say sir and ma'am, but only when I feel the situation calls for it. If I am having a relaxed conversation with an adult, I will not say it, but if I am answering questions from someone senior to me, I will say it.

You just have to decide when to let your children make their own choices, and when to step in and make the decision for them. This usually involves knowing whether or not a bad decision will effectively ruin the child's life on some level (for example, an adult knows how hard it is for someone who doesn't have a college education, let alone a high school education, to find a job, so letting the 6 year old decide they don't want to even finish elementary school would ruin almost all chances of getting any kind of work).

And this is one of the reasons why teens should not be parents (like how I bring it back on topic, eh? :)). Teens do not have the experiences needed to raise children, nor are they responsible enough to make decisions for someone else (it could even be argued they are not even responsible enough to make their own decisions). Therefore, the grandparents' help is almost a necessity in order for the child to be raised correctly.

My mother or better my parents did never try to make him to become more independent I guess its somewhat that they like to think he won't leave them.

Pointing out where you used my mother at...

crookshanksmom

April 22nd, 2004, 5:04 pm

Independence from parents comes in stages. Generally, a child's first step of independence away from home is starting preschool or kindergarten. But would you allow your 4 or 5 year old to pick out her own clothes? Probably not. You might allow your 12 year old to see a matinee movie with a group of her friends, but would you allow her to go to "teen night" at a dance club with a 16 year old boy? Again, no. Teaching morals and manners DOES have an impact on your children. My parents taught me from a young age to have respect for them and for all my elders. Saying please and thank you and knowing proper table manners were a must to be included in adult dinners in my family. If you didn't know them, you were banished to the "kiddie table" at fancy dinners, such as thanksgiving, easter, christmas, and anniversary parties. Some of my friends when I was in high school were surprised at how well-mannered I am at fancy restaraunts and how respectfully I treated my teachers. I am not a younger version of them, but certain things did stick-minding my manners in dignified occasions, believing that child sex is wrong and stuff like that. However, my parents are VERY against single parenting and same-sex parenting, but those type of things are OK with me so long as the parents are good. Also, your kids don't want you to be their friend, no matter how much they say "Well, Sally's mom is her best friend". Your kids have friends. What they need is a PARENT. Someone to teach them right from wrong, someone to ground them when they break the rules, someone to talk to them about growing up and what it means to be a productive adult. And it is true that friendship will come with time. My mother is now my friend, now that I am out of the home, helping pay my own bills, and making my own decision. I am 25, though, not 13. When I was a kid, she was a parent, and I really admire and respect her for now bowing to the pressure of society to go easy on me. Because she didn't, I grew up to be a fairly smart adult who can make good choices in life. Part of the problem today is parents are seriouslly afraid to disipline thier children because of threats to call CPS. CPS is good in the fact that kids who are being seriouslly abused are removed from those homes, but the bad side is that we are no longer allowed to even scold our children for fear of "damaging their self-esteem". What is more important, making your child upset for 10 minutes and knowing they'll be safe now and in the future, or allowing our society to turn into one of wild animals?

purplehawk

April 22nd, 2004, 5:09 pm

Strange, but I never screamed at my son when he brought the impending birth of his first child to the table. My husband and I tried to get him to do the things he needed to do to protect himself - paternity testing, engaging an attorney to protect his rights to see and to support his child and all that. I disliked the girl on sight because of her cocky "you-owe-me" attitude, but I invited her into my home a few months later.

Conversely, I very nearly gave him a heart attack - or a battered skull - when he told me the second one was on the way! That was the time Dad and I did a lot of shouting and screaming because we could read the handwriting on the wall, even if he and his lady friend refused to see it.

We did not force our opinions down our kids' throats. We did set a high bar for matters of behavior and achievement in school and elsewhere. They were allowed very few excuses for not doing their best at all times. We took them to church. We took them on vacations and very often let them choose our destination. We stayed involved in their schools. My husband made every track, basketball, football, soccer and gymnastics practice they were involved in. As a family, we attended every game or match. We rewarded the older two with brand-new automobiles when they became National Merit Scholars and were old enough to have their licenses. We always welcomed their friends into our home - always. In fact, we still see a good many of their high school and college friends who make a habit of stopping by when they're in town or during the holidays.

We didn't always agree on things! There were some bad times, especially during their teens, when heads butted and tempers were hot. One of the worst was a companion of our daughter's, a well-placed young man who was the son of a diplomat. He was rich, handsome, extremely well-educated. He was also a Muslim and it was this last that Dad and Mom couldn't handle. Call us racist if you like; I guess maybe we were. In the end, she discovered for herself what we'd tried to tell her all along and she ended the relationship.

I guess what I'm trying to say is you don't have to try to rule your children's thoughts and interests. We went out of our way to offer new experiences to them and when they took to something, we did everything we could to support them. Sometimes being supportive means saying "no," however, and making "no" stick.

crookshanksmom

April 22nd, 2004, 5:19 pm

Of COURSE parents and teens are going to butt heads. Emotions (and hormones) run very high in the teen years. The teen is trying to assert their independence, saying without words "this is who I am, I am separate from you" while the parent is struggling with the fact that the little boy or girl they've changed diapers on, sat and sweated over fevers, sniffled over the first day of school is boardering on adulthood. It's a hard time. The kid wants BOTH idependence and the protection of Mommy and Daddy, and the parent wants to protect without smothering (hopefully). I think the only people who can really see this clearly are parents raising teens and young adults who were teens not too long ago themselves (like me). Alot of parents make the mistake of figuring once a kid reaches their teens, they're "done". That's not true. After infancy/toddlerhood, the teen years are the hardest on a kid. There are so many things they need your help and your talks in-drugs, dating smartly, their changing bodies, and yes even sex. Your job as a parent, I believe, is never really "done". I am 25, and still ask my mother on advice on things such as saving, spending wisely, birth control, marriage, and child rearing. Your child is your child forever, and you need to keep the lines of communication open forever.

purplehawk

April 22nd, 2004, 6:09 pm

The greatest blessings on earth are to share things with your grown "kids," and to see them parenting their own brood. I will forever keep close the note my daughter sent me a few months after her son was born. She thanked me for many things, but most of all for my encouragement and support during the "I'm-not-sure-if-I'm-doing-this-right" stages with a newborn. I have similar notes from my daughter-in-law after her two children were born. We shop together, have girls' nights out, and other fun stuff. I see them all frequently and we talk on the phone nearly every day. I'm content with the way our relationships have evolved - yes, even with the youngest who has become a stellar parent in his own right.

FlyingPhoenix

April 22nd, 2004, 7:26 pm

DsX Phoenix

April 22nd, 2004, 7:52 pm

I certainly know Independence don't comes from one moment to another and I certainly didn't mean to say that a 6 year old dos what ever it like's but through the years the parents guidiance should be lessen as older that child become's.

I completely agree. I remember growing up, my parents were extremely strict. We were not allowed to watch MTV, buy CD's that had parental warnings, or even play games like Mortal Kombat.

However, things changed as we got older, and my parents didn't mind me listening to Eminem or the other music I listen to, and even said nothing when I went to an Eminem concert after my 18th birthday. The biggest shocker came to me when this Christmas, my parents actually bought me the Grand Theft Auto games for my Xbox, because I had mentioned being interested in them (the debate about whether these games should even exist does not belong in this thread, mind you all ;)). When I said something about how shocked I was, the reply was, "You're an adult now. We trust you to make intelligent decisions."

While I knew this was true, it never sunk in just how far it had gone until that moment. Sure, my parents let me make my own choices, but they also accepted my choices, and did not lecture me on the forms of entertainment I enjoy.

This is how parenting is supposed to be. You have to have strict guidelines for your children, and as the children grow older and start to make their own decisions and mature, then you let them do what they want.

Nah, I don't mean this kind of using "My" I mean if your mother or father tells you: "You are my son and thats why you do what I say." Its like saying you are my car that's why you drive that route.

Sometimes the easiest way to get a child to do something is through blind obedience. I agree this isn't something parents should use too often, but sometimes it is the best method, especially if you are trying to convey something that is simply too complicated for the child to understand. So, while I think it is acceptable to do with younger children, I think it should only be used sparingly with older children (for example, when they are simply trying to question your authority, not because they don't understand the reasoning).

purplehawk

April 22nd, 2004, 7:54 pm

Masterfroggy

April 22nd, 2004, 7:57 pm

I know this is way off topic but I have to say this, teaching my daughter morals is my role in life, because, morals and manners are the building blocks of a well rounder person, if I had not taught my daughter to read, and write (before she went to school) she would not be able to enjoy with easy the books that she now reads, I gave her the tool, and as she grows up she will use them to her own ends, if she want to read trash and pointless magazines it will be her choice, if she want to read great works that enhance her life that to will be up to her, until she is able to make logical decisions I will decide what she is and isn’t allowed to read,

When my daughter is wise enough to know that she does not know it all, she will be given the opportunity to make more and more of her life choices, at the moment she is being taught (by me and my wife) how to take the right steps towards her future, she will attend our church, she will attend school, she will conform to the role that we have laid down for her, she will be taught the correct way to behave, in every level of social behaviour, from attending a wedding, to going swimming with a large group of children of mixed ages and all points in between. In all this she will be allowed as she grows in ability and understanding to make more and more important decisions until she has almost total control, but until that day comes she will remain guided by us.

By giving my daughter the tools needed to run her live and the guidance needed she will have the strength and purpose to make a great life for herself, if she decides in some future time to drop out and become a hippy or a wastrel, she will do it knowing all the options, and all of the consequences, lots of teens and preteens are being given the opportunities that they just don’t have the understanding or mental strength to cope with.

And the reasons they are unprepared is their parents fault because the people who should be preparing them for society have let them down, or taken their eye off the ball, Children need guidance and adults have to understand that it’s a full time life time job, the hard work never stops, the watching, nurturing, worrying and pain, the sacrifice, goes on until you think you can not stand it any longer and the relentlessly it goes on some more,

Purp will understand this, because as a parent she and her husband had reached the point that they thought they were home and dry, and suddenly they became parents again, my father buried his father, his wife and his seven year old son in the same fortnight, and was still there for his five remaining children, he is spending his aged years worrying about his nine nieces and nephews. No one want to know this because it’s not a “solve the worlds problems in 28 minute (not including adverts) everyone lives happy every after soft snuggley warm feeling,” but it is life real life.

(Please note I am not attacking anyone in this post and if I have upset or offended any one please tell me and I will delete this and apologise )

FlyingPhoenix

April 22nd, 2004, 9:41 pm

Well, FP, what would you say to a kid who isn't listening to reason, or is dismissing the reasons given as invalid, and the discussion has deteriorated into an argument - and the answer still has to be "no?"

Then is it still "No" but without to say "You are my son or my daughter and you do just that". I don't say as parent you have to agree everything god forbid but if you gave your reasoning and your son or daughter still won't hear then is it just a "no!". Luckily enough I was never in such situation as teenager that wonders me right now.

I know this is way off topic but I have to say this, teaching my daughter morals is my role in life, because, morals and manners are the building blocks of a well rounder person, if I had not taught my daughter to read, and write (before she went to school) she would not be able to enjoy with easy the books that she now reads, I gave her the tool, and as she grows up she will use them to her own ends, if she want to read trash and pointless magazines it will be her choice, if she want to read great works that enhance her life that to will be up to her, until she is able to make logical decisions I will decide what she is and isn’t allowed to read,

Forgive me but moral's and manners aren't the same as to teach your daughter to read and to write but I like that example anyway because this is what I do mean to teach and to be a guidance for a child but not to make forever for her decision. A child must learn to chose and to take responsibilty for this choice.

In all this she will be allowed as she grows in ability and understanding to make more and more important decisions until she has almost total control, but until that day comes she will remain guided by us.

Agreed, I think thats the best way.

And the reasons they are unprepared is their parents fault because the people who should be preparing them for society have let them down, or taken their eye off the ball, Children need guidance and adults have to understand that it’s a full time life time job, the hard work never stops, the watching, nurturing, worrying and pain, the sacrifice, goes on until you think you can not stand it any longer and the relentlessly it goes on some more,

And this I think is the very point where we turn to the topic back because I think this the main reason why Teenager Pregnancy isn't the best esp. if the teenager is still in need of guidance. If they didn't need guidance anymore they weren't pregnant.
You know I know a lot of "woman's" in my age who have already a child but mind you its not really surprising that this baby's are almost never wished, planned children but are accident's and this just shows they aren't ready either even if they are already old enough but still not independent enough.
You may ask where those babys are the most of time? By the Grandparents.

It isn't fair too let your own parents take responsibilty for your child just because you are to lazy.

purplehawk

April 22nd, 2004, 10:11 pm

It isn't fair too let your own parents take responsibilty for your child just because you are to lazy.

Amen to that. It isn't fair. I suppose I could have plunked down and complained a lot when that situation was occurring. Except for going ballistic at the time I learned the second child was on the way, I never did complain much. I was too busy trying to save a child's life. That was literally what it was all about for me. His parents maybe were World-Class Idiots, but he was entirely worthy of everything we could do for him and the same was true of his sister a few years later.

Kaonashi

April 22nd, 2004, 10:24 pm

It isn't fair too let your own parents take responsibilty for your child just because you are to lazy.

That's the thing I have problems with. It's not fair to ask your parents who probably thought they were done with raising their kids to assume that role over again. Some of these kids, seeing how "easy" their parents took the news the first time won't think twice about doing it again.

And while we're on the subject, what's wrong with teaching your children manners, and to say "Please" and "Thank you," and to respect adults and their peers the same way they would themselves want to be respected? Some of these kids today are being "hatched up" as opposed to being raised, probably because there's a huge amount of kids raising kids these days who don't have a clue how to do so. Whether your morals learn towards "wait until your married" to "wait until you're at least old enough to understand the ramifications of having sex and here's how to protect yourself against pregnancy and disease" you should at least talk to your child and try to instill some sort of values in them rather than the lack of values they will learn in the streets.

Maybe I feel the way I do because I see young parents on the bus cusrsing out their kids, calling them everything but a child of god when they cry or can't keep up, etc. Is it any mistake that these children get older and have no respect for anyone, least of all themselves?

As for the "my children" remark, yes, your children are your children. When you are misbehaving in school the teachers tells us (with that "Look," parents, you know which look I'm talking about) "Your child needs [whatever]." If you do something that ends up on the 10 oclock news, people say "what a horrible thing" and in the next breath say "What type of parents does this child have that made him do something so atrocious?" When a child or teen breaks the law in certain states the parents will be prosecuted, not the child. In the eyes of the law and everywhere else, that chld is "your child." Children can get legally emancipated from parents, yet there is precious few resources that parents can go to when dealing with a completely unruly, uncontrollable child without a medical problem who doesn't care about you or anyone else. Why? Because according to the law, it's "your child" and you should deal with "your problem." What children and teens don't realize is that parents take the brunt of your bad behaviour.

PurpleHawk: the amount of grandparents raising their grandkids is actually much higher, occurding to the US Census Bureau. I'll get back to you on the exact numbers.

According to the link below, the number is actually closer to 2.1 MILLION grandparents raising their grandchildren without any parents in sight:

http://www.volunteersofamerica.org/xq/CFM/content_item_id.2849/folder_id.939/qx/tier3_cd.cfm

hermy_weasley2

April 22nd, 2004, 10:35 pm

I'm fifteen, and I know a girl who is pregnant at my school . She says she didn't think it would happen to her. There's a school for people who can't go to a typical high school in my school district, and she plans to go there when her baby is born. The school serves people in all kinds of situations, but there are a lot of teen moms there. It has a child care center that watches te students' children while they're at school, so she can take her baby with her. The school also offers classes at night, and she plans on taking those. She hasn't really said much more than that.

I don't think teenagers are ready to have children, but it does happen. When it happens, I don't think the teenage parent should be tossed out in punishment. I say "parent" ,because it's not only mothers who end up raising their children alone. It's more common for the mother, yes, but not always. My brother has been raising his children by himself for three years now. He and his ex- wife were married young adults when they had kids, but she's not involved in their lives now. I'm not a teen mother, but I think it would be much harder for a teenager alone than it is for my brother who already has it hard. I do agre with what's been said before though. It's not fair to make your parents raise your kids because you're too irresponsible to do it yourself.

FlyingPhoenix

April 22nd, 2004, 10:54 pm

And while we're on the subject, what's wrong with teaching your children manners, and to say "Please" and "Thank you," and to respect adults and their peers the same way they would themselves want to be respected?

To be exact I didn't say it is wrong teach children manners I said its wrong to act and do it on intention if you have to force yourself to say those things, to have those manners you wish your child get this will back fire. Because children's can look behind a facade. Right if you are someone who always says "Thank you" and "Please" then is it fine but if you just say it if your child is in one room with you then is it acting. My point was if you teach something you have to life self after it, you have to be like that you can't teach something what you aren't because if you act this implied lying.
In fact I do agree with manner's but since I know myself (example) I can't teach someone to say always "Thank you" if I don't do it myself say it all the time.

It dos not well if you just play or act very morally if your child is around and it can if its smart enough sense the false acting that’s why it dos nothing if you act on intention and says always "Thank you" or "Please".
Then if we want to play it completely out you can shout "Thank you" or say it very sarcastic it dos nothing if you just say it. This formal saying of things aren't even needed if you voice it kindly or polite enough like "Can you give me the newspaper?" in a nice voice that is already enough.

Maybe I feel the way I do because I see young parents on the bus cusrsing out their kids, calling them everything but a child of god when they cry or can't keep up, etc. Is it any mistake that these children get older and have no respect for anyone, least of all themselves?

I see that too nearly everyday.

As for the "my children" remark, yes, your children are your children. When you are misbehaving in school the teachers tells us (with that "Look," parents, you know which look I'm talking about) "Your child needs [whatever]." If you do something that ends up on the 10 oclock news, people say "what a horrible thing" and in the next breath say "What type of parents does this child have that made him do something so atrocious?" When a child or teen breaks the law in certain states the parents will be prosecuted, not the child. In the eyes of the law and everywhere else, that chld is "your child." Children can get legally emancipated from parents, yet there is precious few resources that parents can go to when dealing with a completely unruly, uncontrollable child without a medical problem who doesn't care about you or anyone else. Why? Because according to the law, it's "your child" and you should deal with "your problem." What children and teens don't realize is that parents take the brunt of your bad behaviour.

You may mistaken me I didn't mean that they shouldn't say "My child" because it shows to much responsibilty what I meant is that many say "My child" not because they have responsibility rather because they think they own it and can ergo do whatever they like and if it means it is called names and if it means to let it cry all day Its in they word's "My child" and they think they own it and can do what they please. Thats why it has a negative touch

purplehawk

April 23rd, 2004, 12:11 am

I do know what FlyingPhoenix is alluding to with the "my" thing. Our less than illustrious mom treated her kids like chattel property. When she and some of her siblings were placed in foster arrangements with relatives, that house - however bad it was - should have been "good enough for my f**king son!" She actually shouted that at a judge in juvenile court one morning. The judge shot right back that, unlike mom and her brothers and sisters, our grandson had a choice and she considered that a good thing even if mom didn't. I haven't talked to that girl in two years but in our last chat she asked the same question she'd been asking for eight years: "Why did you take my son?" I figure if an army of lawers, a judge, a magistrate, innumerable caseworkers and both families hadn't explained the reasons to her satisfaction, she's never going to get it.

The truly amazing thing is the last time she saw the children, our grandson asked her to tell him, in her words, what happened when he was a baby and why she hadn't been able to care for him and his sister. She blew up in his face and brought him to tears, telling him she hadn't given him up and that his grandparents "bought him in a court of law." She went on to rant that everything about his life was a lie. Both kids were so shell shocked they required all the reassurance we could give them as well as outside counseling. We cut ties with her after that.

Kaonashi, I didn't mean to imply my group of 8,000 represented all grandparents in our situation. As a matter of fact, in my county alone more than 20% of all school-aged children are living with their grandparents. That seems an impossibly high number, but it's an accurate one. I keep tabs with AARP, a seniors' advocacy group, and the subject of grandparents raising grandchildren is always under discussion at some level.

Kaonashi

April 23rd, 2004, 3:00 am

No, it doesn't seem to be impossibly high unfortunately. Such times we are living in...*sigh*

Phoenix and Purplehawk: thanks for elaboration on the "my" thing. When I say "You're my son, and that's why you're not going to do that/wear that/etc" it's usually because the "Well, so-and so's parents let HIM do whatever" argument is brought up. It's not meant as ownership, but as "I'm YOUR parent, and this is how we do things. That might be what they do over THERE, but that's not going on OVER HERE!"

miku_miku_kwi

April 24th, 2004, 11:18 pm

Amen to that. It isn't fair. I suppose I could have plunked down and complained a lot when that situation was occurring. Except for going ballistic at the time I learned the second child was on the way, I never did complain much. I was too busy trying to save a child's life. That was literally what it was all about for me. His parents maybe were World-Class Idiots, but he was entirely worthy of everything we could do for him and the same was true of his sister a few years later.

I'm curious, Mrs. Purplehawk. Is the first baby your youngest son had doing all right? The child wasn't traumatized, because you helped take care of him, right?

purplehawk

April 25th, 2004, 2:08 am

Hi there. I wish I could say he wasn't traumatized, but it would be a lie. His mother was so violent, her rages so incomprehensible, there was no chance he could emerge unscathed.

She had barricaded herself into an office at CPS and was adamantly refusing to come out. She shouted that she would kill the baby before she let him be taken from her. I was sitting outside the office when the SWAT team arrived. They completely took over the place and after ascertaining she didn't have a weapon, crashed through the door. I watched, horrified, as she tried to suffocate him. Five officers came at her, one for each of her limbs and the fifth positioned to catch the baby when he popped out of her grasp. They rushed him out of there and into the arms of an ET worker, who began breathing into his mouth. It only took a couple of attempts. I watched him gasp and saw the color return to his face as he breathed on his own. He began wailing again, so terrified he closed his eyes on the whole scene and just screamed uncontrollably. He went through several pairs of hands before I was able to get him. It was then that I called his name softly. He opened his eyes mid-scream and then, realizing it was really me, he relaxed, stopped crying, and collapsed onto my shoulder.

It took several weeks for him to be able to sleep normally. He couldn't handle things well if one of us was missing - even if we were in another room temporarily. All of his special adults needed to be where he could see and interact with us.

Recognizing what was happening, I tried hard to arrange a visit with his mother at our home. She refused for over a month because she felt it would be too hard on her. When she finally did come, he took one look at her and began screaming again, trying frantically to get away. She basically ignored his pleading calls to "Dada" and "Nana." She refused every attempt we made to help and let that poor child cry until he threw up, cried himself to exhaustion and fell asleep briefly, then started awake and cried again. My husband finally intervened, saying it wasn't working and suggesting she try again another time.

She did eventually win the right to have visits with him on her own turf, but they were swiftly discontinued after the ambush I described earlier. She was sentenced to a home for disturbed teens at one point. Many of the girls were mothers and their kids were shuttled in and out for visits. I drove away from that and many other places over the first two years of his life, listening to him scream for me not to leave him. It was very difficult for everyone involved. We sought professional counseling to help him get through it all. It all ended a few months after his second birthday, when the situation with Mom had deteriorated to the point all future visitations were "goodwill" and required to be conducted in our home and supervised by us. She was pregnant by then with the second child and no longer really interested in her firstborn.

Edit: Mom was incarcerated when we gained custody of our granddaughter. She made it difficult, no doubt about it, but nothing even close to what happened the first time. Our granddaughter was fourteen months old when she came to join our family. She was suffering from malnutrition, a skin affliction, out-of-control asthma, and developmental delays. The poor child had never known where she would awake or who would be there when she woke, so sleep issues complicated her adjustment as well. It took a good while before I could stroke her brow at night and not have her wake up, her beautiful eyes full of terror.

Both the kids are doing splendidly today. We've survived all the bad stuff and they are as normal a 10 and 7 year old as you could hope for, excellent students in school and all around good citizens.

miku_miku_kwi

April 25th, 2004, 1:26 pm

Hi there. I wish I could say he wasn't traumatized, but it would be a lie. His mother was so violent, her rages so incomprehensible, there was no chance he could emerge unscathed.

She had barricaded herself into an office at CPS and was adamantly refusing to come out. She shouted that she would kill the baby before she let him be taken from her. I was sitting outside the office when the SWAT team arrived. They completely took over the place and after ascertaining she didn't have a weapon, crashed through the door. I watched, horrified, as she tried to suffocate him. Five officers came at her, one for each of her limbs and the fifth positioned to catch the baby when he popped out of her grasp. They rushed him out of there and into the arms of an ET worker, who began breathing into his mouth. It only took a couple of attempts. I watched him gasp and saw the color return to his face as he breathed on his own. He began wailing again, so terrified he closed his eyes on the whole scene and just screamed uncontrollably. He went through several pairs of hands before I was able to get him. It was then that I called his name softly. He opened his eyes mid-scream and then, realizing it was really me, he relaxed, stopped crying, and collapsed onto my shoulder.

It took several weeks for him to be able to sleep normally. He couldn't handle things well if one of us was missing - even if we were in another room temporarily. All of his special adults needed to be where he could see and interact with us.

Recognizing what was happening, I tried hard to arrange a visit with his mother at our home. She refused for over a month because she felt it would be too hard on her. When she finally did come, he took one look at her and began screaming again, trying frantically to get away. She basically ignored his pleading calls to "Dada" and "Nana." She refused every attempt we made to help and let that poor child cry until he threw up, cried himself to exhaustion and fell sleep briefly, then started awake and cried again. My husband finally intervened, saying it wasn't working and suggesting she try again another time.

She did eventually win the right to have visits with him on her own turf, but they were swiftly discontinued after the ambush I described earlier. She was sentenced to a home for disturbed teens at one point. Many of the girls were mothers and their kids were shuttled in and out for visits. I drove away from that and many other places over the first two years of his life, listening to him scream for me not to leave him. It was very difficult for everyone involved. We sought professional counseling to help him get through it all. It all ended a few months after his second birthday, when the situation with Mom had deteriorated to the point all future visitations were "goodwill" and required to be conducted in our home and supervised by us. She was pregnant by then with the second child and no longer really interested in her firstborn.

Edit: Mom was incarcerated when we gained custody of our granddaughter. She made it difficult, no doubt about it, but nothing even close to what happened the first time. Our granddaughter was fourteen months old when she came to join our family. She was suffering from malnutrition, a skin afflication, out-of-control asthma, and developmental delays. The poor child had never known where she would awake or who would be there when she woke, so sleep issues complicated her adjustment as well. It took a good while before I could stroke her brow at night and not have her wake up, her beautiful eyes full of terror.

Both the kids are doing splendidly today. We've survived all the bad stuff and they are as normal a 10 and 7 year old as you could hope for, excellent students in school and all around good citizens.

I'm really glad everything turned out all right. Still, how scary! I can't help, but think about children who had the same situation...just for being born...

purplehawk

April 25th, 2004, 2:03 pm

What do you mean? Other children who were born into the same situation and had to live through it without intervention?

Assuming that is what you're referring to, it's something that disturbs me a great deal. I have only to look just across town to realize what might have happened to my grandchildren had Poppy and I not gone to bat for them. Of those 9 kids in Mom's family, all but the three youngest have become teen parents. The twins are the same age as my grandson and the other is a year older.

It's enough to make one's heart stop.

FlyingPhoenix

April 25th, 2004, 6:31 pm

Oh dear lord your grandchildren's can be very glad that they have you and your husband, Purplehawk.
I fail to understand why a mother dos such things to her children's.

It took a good while before I could stroke her brow at night and not have her wake up, her beautiful eyes full of terror.

I don't need to say this made me all teary as I read that. Well, till this post of yours I wasn't really aware how much you had go through esp. those childrens. Fear's and terror don't belong in eye's of childrens alone the thought make's me go uneasy.

Kaonashi

April 25th, 2004, 11:30 pm

Purplehawk, all I have to say is thank goodness those children had you and your husband. May good things continue to happen for you and your family.

purplehawk

April 26th, 2004, 12:08 am

FP and Kaonashi, thanks a million. We think we're the lucky ones to have had a hand in rearing two great kids. :tu: When I see them today - so capable, so well-adjusted, so sure of themselves and their place in the family and the world without - I have to say it's hard to remember when those blessings weren't assured. Time heals a lot, you know?

crookshanksmom

April 26th, 2004, 5:14 am

Not all teen parents are bad or glom off of their parents or the government. 8 years ago, my cousin, who was 17 at the time, got his girlfriend (16) pregnant. She said she was going to keep the baby no matter what, so he married her when she was around 4 months along. He used the money he had saved up for his dream car to rent a little apartment for them and worked with his uncle as a mechanic instead of cotinuing on to college. His wife dropped out of high school so she could stay home with the baby during the day and went to night school to get her diploma when he was at home with the baby. Once she graduated and got a job of her own, money wasn't as tight so he started taking a couple of classes a semester at the community college in computer sciences. My aunt and uncle rarely ever watched their child. She went to day care the 3 days a week her mom worked. They were young, but they were acting like any other young couple struggling to survive out there. Their little girl will be 8 this July. They are still married, still in love, but even if they weren't, I'm sure they wouldn't be living off their parents. My cousin will be getting his Bachelor's degree in Computer Sciences this May and already has a job lined up, so they are thinking about buying a house and having another child-once everything's secure. I'm not saying it was easy. I'd visit with them, and they'd both look so tired and worn-out, and I can't say I envied them, though they were in love. But against all odds, they made it work out for them. I don't recommend teen parenting by a long shot-enjoy your childhood while you can, because once you decide to be a parent, you'll always be a parent, even when that kid is grown and out of the house. You'll never get a chance to be young and stupid again.

purplehawk

April 26th, 2004, 3:14 pm

I've heard of several stories like your cousin's and I have to admit they're heartwarming. The young woman I've written about was not bad, per se, but more a product of poor parenting. She had anger-management issues that were never addressed, for example, and quite possibly learning disabilities that went untreated. And then there was the matter of the environment in which she lived. I mean, how many teen girls and their mothers are pregnant at the same time?

In the beginning, I thought exposure to a different lifestyle was all she needed to take the bull by the horns and change the way she viewed things. CPS certainly thought so; they spent a large fortune trying to position her to regain custody of her son. It was all to no avail, however, for Mom saw no reason to change. She was fine. It was the rest of us who were cracked.

Those attitudes are not restricted to teen moms, either. I've seen adult divorces go horribly awry, particularly on the subject of custody disputes. As a matter of fact, I am mediating one now and it is a royal mess! Why these young people choose to use their children to punish or manipulate their ex is beyond my ability to understand. The best interests of the child should always be paramount IMO but, sadly, too often the child is the last consideration of either parent.

crookshanksmom

April 26th, 2004, 3:27 pm

I've seen children used as weapons. My cousins. My aunt is, sadly, a drug addict, but she hid her habit very well. She was granted primary custody of her kids when she and my uncle divorced. She didn't care one whit about the kids-she even put her 14 year old daughter on the pill when she told her she kissed a boy for the first time! She got custody just because she worked at home instead of out of the house, like my uncle.

purplehawk

April 26th, 2004, 4:30 pm

There is a very strong bias, a predisposition toward awarding custody to mothers and not thinking twice. My state threw a ton of money in the general direction of the mom in our case, all in the interests of reunifying mother and child, and it turned out to be a waste of taxpayer dollars. I see a few hopeful signs that some of this bias is beginning to erode and judges are beginning to focus more on the interests of the child(ren) than the wishes of the parents. It's about darned time!

The institution of motherhood was once revered in society. There is still some respect for mothers but it isn't what it used to be. I've seen it change over my lifetime and it saddens me. Maybe saddest of all is the fact we have done it to ourselves. So many young people today seem to consider their kids in the same light as their cell phones.

Claireyellen

May 3rd, 2004, 7:02 pm

I have a friend who got pregnant at 16 unintetionally. She didn't tell anyone minus her partner and one friend who believed she had 'sorted it out'. She didn't tell her parents until she was 5 months pregnant and decided to keep the baby.

This was all going on and coming out while she was sitting her GCSEs (major exams similar to O.W.Ls!!!) and she came out with very good results and came back in September to 6th form (an optional two years where you sit A Levels, like N.E.W.Ts). She came to school untill she was 9 months gone and came back a month afetr her daughter was born.

I feel she is a good mother, although she gets a huge amount of support from her family. I admire her for how well she has done over the past years and she is now planning to go to university to study law. Pretty much against the stereotypical teenage mothers

purplehawk

May 3rd, 2004, 8:25 pm

When is a pregnancy resulting from having unprotected sex "unintentional?"

Why didn't she tell her parents before any decision they might sway was already out of their hands? That sounds pretty deliberate and calculating to me.

It's nice she's getting herself an education, but who is taking care of her baby while she attends school and university in the normal "unencumbered" way? If it's Mom and Dad, then, no, her situation is not outside the stereotypical teenaged mother. She's as typical as they come, I'm afraid.

Where is her "partner" now?

Kaonashi

May 4th, 2004, 8:08 pm

Actually, taht's very common. And quite sad.

When I was a teen, I noticed that a lot of girls who got pregnant were confused, and didn't tell their parents until the 6th or 7th month! They wore loose clothing, and for those a liitle bit on the plump side, well, it didn't really show up that much. They were all too scared to tell their parents, often too "broke" to get an abortion, so they just let the situation just build and build....one friend ddin't tell ANYONE until her seventh month, and even I didin't know until her mom told me and asked me if I knew about it! Fear can do strange things...

purplehawk

May 4th, 2004, 10:14 pm

Do you think it's really fear and confusion that keeps them quiet for so long?

FlyingPhoenix

May 5th, 2004, 9:32 am

Do you think it's really fear and confusion that keeps them quiet for so long?

I do think so. Its like if you life in denial and just go on it might go away or something like this. But mostly is it a not wanting to deal with it. Since getting a child is for sure nothing what you can make any easy. It will happen, you will getting bigger and at one point you will get a baby. The point is this is something what will happen and thats the reason why those girls do suddenly nothing, don't think about abortion nor about telling it someone. Since they think if they no longer think at it they won't get it.

Its like a child violate laws or better write a bad essay in school if they are ashamed they just won't tell it they partents till the term is over the teenager had nearly forgotten this and suddenly its come all back again. Parents are angry and all those things. Same concept same reason.

Kaonashi

May 5th, 2004, 9:37 am

Pretty much. Fear of what their parents will say. I've seen girls go into complete and utter denial of the situation too. They don't want to have an abortion, they don't want to keep the child, they just...freeze up. the family friend who I was referring to (the one who waited until her seventh month, when it became obvious to all her condition) came from a very religious family, and needless to say, having nooky before marriage is considered a sin. I asked her later why she didn't tell anyone and she said that she didn't trust anyone not to tell her family. i asked her how on earth did she think she could hide something like that and she said she didn't know...she just didn't think about it. Thankfully, her daughter came out okay, and her family supported her, but when she got pregnant again, her mom told her she obviously didn't learn her lesson the first time and told her to move.

purplehawk

May 5th, 2004, 1:26 pm

when she got pregnant again, her mom told her she obviously didn't learn her lesson the first time and told her to move.

See? That's why I don't believe these girls are reacting out of fear. Fear doesn't normally imply going for a round of double jeopardy!

I think their silence is nothing more than their determination not to be forced to have an abortion, or not be kicked out of the house while they're still carrying the child. They figure (usually correctly) that once the baby is born, their parents' attitude will soften appreciably. Presto! The teen wins.

I honestly believe they count on the baby to smooth things over with their parents. They also count on the adults to do what I did - insist they finish school in order to be better able to care for the child. This is the excuse they wanted. It gets them out of fulltime child care and back into the social rituals with their friends, only with a new edge: that baby back home with Mom and Dad is proof positive they are sexually mature. They wear the baby like a badge in terms of sexual allure.

There really is very little difference between the inner city girls and those from middle-class suburban homes when it comes to teen pregnancy. They're all after the same thing in the end.

Wab

May 5th, 2004, 2:45 pm

When is a pregnancy resulting from having unprotected sex "unintentional?"

Get real. Just because the sex is unprotected for whatever reason doesn't mean the conception is deliberate. They aren't planning a kid just having sex. Irresponsible, maybe. But to say everyone who has unprotected sex does so with the set intention of getting pregnant is ridiculous.

purplehawk

May 5th, 2004, 2:59 pm

I disagree, Wab. Pregnancy is always an option when two people engage in sexual activity. It's by biological design. That's why there is such a market for birth control. Kids today learn this at a much earlier age than we did when I was a teen. Sex without protection is like wandering across lanes on the expressway, hoping no one hits you. Sheer stupidity... or is it a decision already made?

I have trouble with blowing it off as "irresponsible." People who have sex in an irresponsible manner don't exactly make responsible parents. Over 20% of the children enrolled in the public school system in my city are being raised by their grandparents... that's a whale of a lot of "irresponsible" teen parents.

Wab

May 5th, 2004, 3:37 pm

A more apt analogy is driving without a seatbelt. Using your "intentional" premise these people want to die while driving to pick up their kids.

It's stupid and irresponsible but it ain't a death wish.

purplehawk

May 5th, 2004, 3:55 pm

I don't think the odds are the same. If you go walking across lanes on the freeway, the odds are very high you'll be hit by a vehicle. Similarly, if you have unprotected sex, the odds are astronomically high you're going to get pregnant.

Seat belts are important, yes, but the driver of the other car also comes into play. Wanting to avoid a crash, they can, in some instances, employ defensive driving techniques and avoid the crash altogether. So the stupid person not wearing his or her seatbelt is saved by someone quite a bit smarter. This is more like a situation in which one partner wishes to avoid a pregnancy and pulls out a condom in a defensive maneuver.

FlyingPhoenix

May 5th, 2004, 3:59 pm

A more apt analogy is driving without a seatbelt. Using your "intentional" premise these people want to die while driving to pick up their kids.

But you don't sit yourself into a car in awareness you could be die. Let say the driver don't have a licence and to add bit more danger this one drive's in the wrong direction and you know it I assure you if you want have any chance to survive you will drive with seatbelt. This were a right analogy but not that what you wrote.

And about sex, you do it naturelly to make children's. So what? If you sleep with someone and you don't want have a child you protect yourself easy like that. If you don't you go the risk willingly in. Ergo you have to take care for that child and not your parents.

Wab

May 5th, 2004, 4:01 pm

Taking a risk doesn't mean you want the worst to happen.

FlyingPhoenix

May 5th, 2004, 4:04 pm

Taking a risk doesn't mean you want the worst to happen.

You know it can happen, very easily so you want this risk if you take it you have to be responsible for what can happen.

purplehawk

May 5th, 2004, 4:22 pm

Taking a risk doesn't mean you want the worst to happen.

It sure does! At least in the case of having unprotected sex, it does. Sooner or later, you'll be caught. Sure as the sun rising at dawn. Doesn't matter if it's a cloudy day. The sun is still up there, just as inevitably as the fact you are going to get pregnant if you have unprotected sex.

Wab

May 5th, 2004, 4:27 pm

I said "want the worst to happen". Just because it happens doesn't mean it's wanted. Again people who have unprotected sex don't go in thinking "Gee I hope I get pregnant." Just as a soldier in the battlefield who knows there's a risk of death or maiming wants to be killed or maimed.

Intentional (the word you originally used) means exactly this.

crookshanksmom

May 5th, 2004, 4:28 pm

I also don't believe the teen is in denial. All she wants is a cute little baby, without thinking that that "cute little baby" is also a crying machine who is VERY expensive. They also don't think about raising the kid once it's out of the "cute little baby" stage-what happens when it's a toddler, a preschooler, a kid, a preteen, and a teenager? I know it's wrong, but sometimes I wish it was like in the old days and teen moms were sent away or were treated like an outcast. Maybe then there wouldn't be so many little girls having children they can't take care of.

purplehawk

May 5th, 2004, 4:40 pm

Hear, hear, Crookshanksmom! I almost said that myself and then backed away from repeating myself. I am of a mind to go "zero tolerance" for these idiotic girls (and boys) who make these babies so cavalierly and (yes, Wab) intentionally.

They do it because there is no downside for them. They don't have to take care of the baby, or do without things themselves to provide diapers and formula and baby clothes. Mom and Dad will "help out" with all that. Help out, my foot!

They know there are no social repercussions because we have collectively become so tolerant of aberrant behavior from teenaged kids. I don't think Crookshanksmom is wrong at all in saying there needs to be swift and certain sanctions against these kids. There certainly were in my day! Girls either married the boys who fathered their children, or they went away to Florence Crittenton (or another home for unwed mothers) and their babies were taken away at birth and placed for adoption. And the girls were forever marked as "easy." Not the kind of girl a decent boy would take home to meet his parents - and certainly not marriage material.

That's the way it ought to be today, as far as I am concerned. That's the only way I can see these girls stopping to think: "Maybe I don't really want to do that... "

P.S. I'm on a roll now. I once visited the apartment of a young mother whose plight was brought to me by my younger son. They worked at the same place and she'd apparently told him she was having a rough time financially. She needed everything. Well, I made a trip to the store and arrived at her place with diapers, formula, wipes, lotions - all the usual stuff you need to keep infants fed, clean, and dry.

The baby had been drinking water from his bottle and wearing the same diaper for three days! His little bottom was burned so badly it had blistered! I've never seen a rash like that before or since. I mixed up a couple of baby ointments designed to treat a yeast-type infection and wrote instructions for the young mother so she would know how to use it when I left. I washed all the dirty bottles and made enough formula to last him for a couple of days.

Then the most incredible thing happened. She asked for a cash "loan" to get her hair and nails done. Never said "thank you" for the things I'd bought for her or the care I gave her poor baby.

crookshanksmom

May 5th, 2004, 4:50 pm

I don't know if all teen moms should be sent away, but all teen moms should be punished seriously. She should be FORCED to take care of her baby. Her parents should give her a time limit after graduating (say, 12 months) to find a job and get out. They should be restricted and not be able to go out and party with their friends or hang out at the mall while mom & dad watch the baby. It should be just school, then stright home and take care of the kid. Maybe if they knew their social life would be at an end the moment they got pregnant, they wouldn't keep the baby. Because the one who misses out in the end is the baby.

purplehawk

May 5th, 2004, 4:53 pm

Maybe. I'm of a mind that most parents will find it difficult (if not impossible) to send the baby away, no matter how much they'd love to be rid of their freeloading teen. I think the kids count on that, too.

Read up. I added a postscript.

Wab

May 5th, 2004, 4:58 pm

purplehawk

May 5th, 2004, 5:03 pm

I think we're veering off-topic with the subject of abortion. Since you raised it, however, I think that option ought to be removed as well.

crookshanksmom

May 5th, 2004, 7:18 pm

I'd rather see a 16 year old get an abortion than see her with a baby.

purplehawk

May 5th, 2004, 9:00 pm

I'm all for forced adoption if the girl is under a certain age - i.e., 18 or 19 - but not abortion. I see no reason to allow wholesale slaughter of babies because their teen moms were idiots. Punish the guilty party - not the innocent one, who, after all, had no control over his parent's promiscuous and irresponsible behavior.

But you're right on one count... teens who give birth should not be walking around footloose and carefree, calling themselves mothers, while the parents have the baby and are making a life possible for that baby.

crookshanksmom

May 6th, 2004, 2:52 am

purplehawk

May 6th, 2004, 3:08 am

Oh, we're on opposite sides of the galaxy on that one, I'm afraid. I don't believe we can legislate when life begins. I think it's slightly crazy that we spend more time thinking and filling out forms as we approach death than we do when a new life is conceived. I chose that word - conceived - deliberately. I believe life begins at that point, not when some wrong-headed politician mandates it.

Just think. Using your definition, adults who are critically injured or suffering from disease would lose "personhood" when they were no longer able to survive without machines and intensive medical care. So we should just inject them humanely? Or stuff a pillow over their heads?

I honestly believe the abortion laws are part and parcel of the teenaged pregnancy problem we now have on our hands.

Padfoot846

May 6th, 2004, 6:08 am

To the original thread starter, i commend you for continuing your education and having your baby. My hat goes of to you. To me the worst thing that can happen to a child is abortion. I believe that if you start to have sex, you take on that responsibliy that you might get pregent, just like when i get hired as a police officer i might get killed, same with my friends in the Marines who are in Afgahn and Iraq, when they signed up they took that responsiblity that they might die. There are other options that arise during pregnancy, like raising the child, or even adoption. Abortion should be the last thing ever considered, unless of course the child was due to a rape and the mother wasn't ready at all.

Kaonashi

May 6th, 2004, 6:55 am

OMG! She actually asked you for coins so she could get her nails and hair done? That's just...nappy. -_-. If I were in her shoes, I would be so embarrassed that a complete stranger came by and bought my child food and pampers that I wouldn't be able to thank you enough! Actually, I don't know what I would say. I think I would be too embarrassed.

She is truly trifling. If it'sone thing I can't stand, it's when you're out somewhere and the children look like wilderbeasts with uncombed hair and ill-fitting clothing, and Mom is all decked out in leater coats and hiar freshly done. If anyone should be running around looking raggedy, it should be the parents, not the children. The children need to come first, and I don't think a lot of teens realize that. That woman probablay thought you were tenderhearted, and tried to take advantage of you. I hope you didn't give her any money!

purplehawk

May 6th, 2004, 1:33 pm

Yes, she did - and, no, I didn't make the "loan."

I could've called Children's Services that night and asked them to intervene on behalf of the baby. I still half think I should have done so... but CPS is a tough road to travel without professional legal counsel. Our attorney fought like hell to separate our grandson from the nine other children involved in the neglect case brought against his maternal grandmother. The judge agreed at once, but CPS just didn't get it. Months later, with them still interfering right and left, the judge had to speak sternly and point out our case was "custody-only." They bowed to her decision, but chose to provide services to the mother anyway. Hence all that business about emancipating her from her mother, and all the freebies thrown at her over the next two years or so.

Sometimes I think that agency does as much harm as good. Their mandate is to fix whatever is wrong and reunite mother and child. Reunification is good, up to a point, but it doesn't allow much thought for the best interests of the child, which often is not being reunited with his or her mother. I testified before the state legislature in 1997 regarding a new bill then on tap to treat legal custody the same as permanent custody in my state. Thankfully, it passed overwhelmingly and removed the threat of birth parents coming back years after the fact and saying "I'm all better now - I want my child back." The law requires the parent to present a compelling reason other than biology to be permitted to sue for a change in custody. That was the point my hubby and I finally began to breathe freely again.

crookshanksmom

May 6th, 2004, 4:17 pm

Rampant teenage pregnancy is due to parental neglect, not due to abortion. And yes, if someone is a vegetable being kept alive just because of machines, I do think they should be unplugged. What's the point of keeping someone in a bed for 30 or 40 years until their heart gives out, that person never being able to do another thing forever? You think life begins at conception, fine, but don't push your morals on people you are not related to.

purplehawk

May 6th, 2004, 4:48 pm

I'm not pushing my sense of morality on anyone, Crookshank. I stated my opinion of abortion - in direct response to your statement of your own opinion.

I have never been a supporter of abortion. To me, it is murder legalized by individuals trying to play God in their quest for votes, which, in turn, equates to power. Several pages back, I have a post about listening to my grandmothers bemoaning Roe v Wade and their contention that it would destroy everything that was good about family and morality in this country. I mentioned in that post those women seem like seers now, because they were absolutely correct in their assessment.

Something is very wrong when our legislated "right" to please ourselves sexually takes precedence over the rights of the children we make to live. The sexual revolution was a disaster for the children of this country. You have only to look around to see the truth in that.

Claireyellen

May 6th, 2004, 7:03 pm

When is a pregnancy resulting from having unprotected sex "unintentional?"
Yes I agree with you on that one, was just the way I worded it. What I meant was she didn't mean to. She was stupid and careless, in that sense it wasn't meant to happen.

Why didn't she tell her parents before any decision they might sway was already out of their hands? That sounds pretty deliberate and calculating to me.
she was scared and worried how they would react, she didn't even tell her friends she was that scared of being judged. the baby's father didn't even tell his parents till she was 9 months gone out of fear.

It's nice she's getting herself an education, but who is taking care of her baby while she attends school and university in the normal "unencumbered" way? If it's Mom and Dad, then, no, her situation is not outside the stereotypical teenaged mother. She's as typical as they come, I'm afraid.
Her childminder looks after her child, not her parents. She works and pays for it. How is that stereotypical? Her Mum and Dad both work.

Where is her "partner" now?
He died 8 months ago in a car crash, they had split up when the baby was 3 months. Not the best Dad in the world but he tried.

Now tell me that's stereo typical? A teenage mother who pays for her own child's childcare whilst she goes to school and then goes to university? I'm sorry I don't know what you're view is but it's different to mine.

purplehawk

May 6th, 2004, 8:01 pm

If she's working and paying her own expenses and those of the baby, then I agree with you - she's doing better than the "stereotypical" teen mom. Strange you didn't mention this information in your earlier post!

I stand by what I said earlier, however, regarding how she came to this pass and the probable manipulation behind her keeping silent for so long.

Claireyellen

May 6th, 2004, 8:18 pm

I used to have the stereotypical view of teenage mums. Low income families where the daughters of jobless 'lay about' parents get themselves 'knocked up' to get a council house and benefits.

This is true of some people I know which is sad but it happens. My friend getting pregnant has changed my view though. It can happen to anyone who is careless and stupid enough not to use protection not just the stereotypical people. Maybe this is the problem, 'It wont happen to me I'm not the type'.

Don't judge people before you ask questions though. Purple Hawk you assumed she relied on her parents, although thank you for saying you agree (is nice when people do that)
If she's working and paying her own expenses and those of the baby, then I agree with you - she's doing better than the "stereotypical" teen mom. Strange you didn't mention this information in your earlier post!
I'm sorry I assumed people would realise she had proper child care and was not relying not the kindness of her parents. Just over looked it I guess.

purplehawk

May 6th, 2004, 8:40 pm

Sometimes it can be difficult to post your full thoughts in a thread on the internet - much more difficult than to do so in real life. I usually err on the side of overly stating what I want to get across for fear of being mistaken, Claireyellen.

When you posted "she gets a huge amount of support from her parents," I assumed wrongly that her parents were in the same situation I am in - and so, it seems, did a few others.

:tu: to your friend!

Claireyellen

May 6th, 2004, 8:47 pm

When you posted "she gets a huge amount of support from her parents," I assumed wrongly that her parents were in the same situation I am in - and so, it seems, did a few others
Sorry about that, I just meant they support her emotionally. Yes they DO look after the baby if she has to go out, or once a week for the night when she goes out with friends. Then again that's no different from what my parents used to do and they were 28 when they had me.

Next time I'll over explain myself :-)

hermy_weasley2

May 6th, 2004, 9:31 pm

I personally think all pregnant teenagers should have 2 options-abortion or adoption. If they choose to continue a pregnancy, then the child should be taken by the state the moment the child gives birth. And by the way, under 12 weeks-it's an embryo. It doesn't gain personhood status until it is able to survive on its own outside the womb, which is 22 weeks at the very earliest.

Without going into how many emotional problems forcing someone to have an abortion or give their baby up for adoption when they don't want to can cause, I think this is a bad idea. I don't know about other places, but where I live, the foster care system is already having problems with the number of children in state custody. No, teenagers are not ready to have children, but there are a lot of babies of teenagers who have a better chance at leading a good life with their parents than a lot babies born to adults. There are plenty of adult parents in the world who shouldn't have kids. The foster care system can't help so many children, so why take the babies that don't nessecarily need to be helped when there are more that desperately need help?

purplehawk

May 6th, 2004, 9:54 pm

hermy_weasley2

May 6th, 2004, 10:07 pm

I think the term was adoption, not foster care. You're right, foster care is a nightmarish place for a child to be in.

Statistics will prove babies born to teens are at higher risk on every level than are children born to adults. I personally believe the only reason we're not hearing more about abusive teen parents is because the grandparents have stepped in.

She mentioned something about the custody of the state-maybe not exactly the same thing,butt nevermind..., and statistics don't tell you anyone's chances of anything. They just tell you what has happened in the situations the statistics represent. That statistic could apply to any population group. If the statistic said children of Jewish parents or African American parents or parents who work in the construction industry were at greater risk, would we be discussing the idea of making these groups choose between abortion and adoption? Most likely not, but teenagers are different. Teenagers are too young to have children (I know adults don't think we know that all the time, but a lot of us do), but it happens. If children born to parents in these groups as a result of unplanned pregnancy were having problems, it would be dealt with on a case by case basis. I think teenage pregnancies should be dealt with on a case by case basis too.

purplehawk

May 6th, 2004, 10:51 pm

I just noticed your age, Hermy. I didn't realize before now that you are a teen.

Teen pregnancy is not something that can be effectively dealt with piecemeal, or on a case-by-case basis as you suggest. The numbers are altogether staggering.

4 out of 10 teen girls will become pregnant at least once before turning 20;
one-third of these girls do not finish high school;
80% of these girls are on some form of public assistance, racking up an annual tally of $7,000,000,000 annually in tax dollars. Note: this does not include the costs associated with children of teens who are being raised by their grandparents;
the numbers of abuse and neglect cases reflect a disproportionately high number of teen parents;
boys born to teen mothers are 13% more likely to end up in prison;
girls born to teen mothers are 22% more likely to become teen mothers themselves;
over 4.5 million children born to teen parents are being raised by their grandparents and one-third of these children have no parent in the home

This problem is too big to manage on an individual basis.

hermy_weasley2

May 6th, 2004, 11:02 pm

purplehawk

May 6th, 2004, 11:49 pm

I'm listening. I would like to hear more from the kids we've been discussing in this thread.

crookshanksmom

May 7th, 2004, 4:53 pm

Teen pregnancy is due to lazy, non-displine parenting, NOT due to abortion. I lived with 2 pro-choice parents who were very involved in my life. If I stepped out of line, punishment and/or lectures were swift and firm (not always a spanking, sometimes it was losing privlages, grounding and/or extra chores). I got "the talk" several times from both parents, even though when you're a 12 year old girl, being told about boys by your dad is embarassing. I never questioned my being pro-choice, yet I was not a 15 year old with 7 sex partners. I'm 25 and have had one sex partner, whom I am married to. Yes, I've kissed alot of boys and young men, but kissing doesn't make anyone pregnant. If legal abortion and being prochoice made people sluts, I'd probably have had 5 abortions by now and had sex with every boy I ever kissed. I would not have been dumped at 15 by a boy I loved because I refused to have sex with him. It comes down to parenting, not religion, not abortion.

The Oracle

May 7th, 2004, 5:30 pm

My parents pretty much guided us but didn't really teach a disciplined lifestyle. I got pregnant when I was 18 but I never blamed my parents for not being there or lacking in parental skills. At 18 I was fully aware of what the consequences would be if I had sex and I chose to ignore them. This wasn't a malicious choice though, just me being stupid. You can still be stupid but be raised okay. I don't smoke or drink yet my parents not only smoke but smoke pot. Openly. It's just a lifestyle choice that I didn't want to be a part of, so if parenting styles reflect on what the kids will be, I should be smoking at least a pack a day and have a selection of ...stuff to smoke with. Heh. :p
Parenting skills and all that do play a part but when you're 15-16, it's insulting to believe that these girls don't have a clue as to what might happen if they have unprotected sex or sex in general. It's a choice to ignore what is printed in black and white on the boxes of birth control or to not listen to what's being said in health class. It's a 50/50 factor IMO. You can be raised extremely well with parents that are there for you, have rules in the house, etc and still have kids that turn out exactly the opposite of what was instilled in their heads from birth.

purplehawk

May 7th, 2004, 5:53 pm

Teen pregnancy is due to lazy, non-displine parenting, NOT due to abortion.

I wonder, though, about the correlation between "lazy, non-discipline parenting" and those who came of child-bearing age after 1973. I know for a fact parents were loads tougher, and far more involved, when I was growing up and when I became a mother for the first time in 1968. Young women born in or around 1973 are now the mothers of these same teens we speak of in this thread. Frankly, I don't see that as mere coincidence. Roe vs. Wade changed attitudes - and not for the better.

I do think, however, that we need to move the abortion discussion to the appropriate thread. It doesn't belong here.

It's a 50/50 factor IMO. You can be raised extremely well with parents that are there for you, have rules in the house, etc and still have kids that turn out exactly the opposite of what was instilled in their heads from birth

You are absolutely correct. Indeed, I am living proof of the truth in those words. My three children were raised by the same parents and under the same rules and guidelines. Two of them did just fine. The youngest did not. I blamed myself for years until a wise therapist finally convinced me my son's choices were his own, not mine, and that his dad and I should stop beating ourselves up because of his choices. Funny... our son now wishes he'd had the sense to listen back then.

crookshanksmom

May 7th, 2004, 6:16 pm

Yes, kids with good parents can go awry, just as kids with bad parents can turn out just fine. But when it comes to teen pregnancy, what I've seen most of the time is that teens who become pregnant and keep their babies and use mom and dad as free baby sitters recieved fairly poor parenting. If parents were more firm, I honestly believe there would be fewer teen parents out there. Parents need to stop being afraid of DYFS and CPS and start being parents. Kids have friends their own age, they need parents not a set of adult friends. Part of the problem, I believe, is that in the 70s, a "new style" of parenting came out-basically, it said if you leave kids to themselves, they'll learn what they need to learn and have high self-esteem. This was the fault of Dr. Spock. Unfortunately, the kids raised in this manner really had no direction. Because they were not taught self-disipline, they believed they were entitled to everything. Psychologist said it was bad if your children hated you. It's not-at times I hated my parents, especially in my teens. I thought it was very unjust that I was made to have chores, keep my grades up, and mind my manners with them and my elders when other kids could basically do whatever. But I have respect for them that others don't, and now seeing through the clearer eyes of adulthood, I know they did what they did because they loved me and wanted me to become a strong, independent adult with my own ideals and morals but still be basically a good person.

purplehawk

May 7th, 2004, 6:31 pm

Great post, Crookshanks! :tu: Spock is very much on my short list of bad influences. My husband and I made a conscious decision to ignore him and his teachings, believing kids - including our own - have no inherent right to feel good about themselves just because they happened to exist. We wanted our three to feel the pride that comes from achievement, of doing something well. We wanted them to learn logic and reason, not the pap diet of feelings they teach nowadays. "I Am, So I'm Okay."

I am aware, too, that kids who are closer to their parents tend not to be those who get pregnant as teens. And by "closer," I am not referring to being best buddies, but instead a more appropriate parent-child relationship.

hermy_weasley2

May 7th, 2004, 9:21 pm

My husband and I made a conscious decision to ignore him and his teachings, believing kids - including our own - have no inherent right to feel good about themselves just because they happened to exist.We wanted our three to feel the pride that comes from achievement, of doing something well. We wanted them to learn logic and reason, not the pap diet of feelings they teach nowadays. "I Am, So I'm Okay."

When I was in elementary school, everything came to me easily. Then in fifth grade, I started into that stage where I cared what everyone thought about me. I thought that all the other kids thought I was showing off when I volunteered information in class. So, I stopped answering questions so I wouldn't look like show-off. In time, though, I convinced myself that I couldn't answer the questions if I'd wanted to. This carried over to my school work, my grades and even my extracirriculars. I wasn't doing well in anything for a while. Then in seventh grade, some of my teachers noticed I was quieter than the other kids and afraid to talk at all in class. She told my parents that my lack of confidence was hurting my grades. That landed me in a week's worth of sessions with the school counselor who went through the whole thing about feeling good about yourself no matter what, but I had to fight to keep myself from laughing the whole time. I didn't believe any of it.

Then, at the end of seventh grade, we took the IAAT, a test that would help determine what level math we would go into the next year. I scored high enough to be placed into the highest level math, but my teacher said he was "quite surprised" at my score and told me to go into one of the lower level classes. That's when my confidence turned around.I don't know why or how, but it did. It might've had something to do with the fact that I hated the teacher and didn't want to lidten to a word he said anyway. I signed up for the higher level math class and ended up passing with a very good grade. From there, I started doing better in everything else again, because I had the confidence to try. The whole mentalitiy that trying was useless for me because I wasn't going to be good at it anyway was starting to go away.

My point is that it should be a combination of both. Feeling good enough about yourself to try and feeling good about your achievements are two different things, and they need to go together. Sorry this is off-topic.

EDIT: And another problem I can see with crookshanksmom 's idea is the fact that the adoption or abortion would be used by many teenagers as an escape route. Part of the reason some teenagers are cautious when deciding to have sex is what's constantly drilled into us, Everyone tells us that one of the main dangers of having unprotected sex is the possibility of getting pregnant and having to raise a child at such a young age. If what crookshanksmom said was law some girls would think "Well, I'm going to have to have an abortion or give the baby up for adoption anyway, so what does it matter?" Then it wouldn't be solving a problem; it would be maikng the problem even worse.

purplehawk

May 7th, 2004, 10:30 pm

Hermy, my daughter had a situation like yours - and at about the same time, in fact. We thought it was the old peer pressure business and changed schools, registering her in an all-girls prep school at the beginning of sixth grade. The change wrought in her over that pivotal year was incredible. She had resisted somewhat when we first introduced the idea, and wasn't at all confident when she first began to attend classes there. By Christmas, however, she was well into her stride in a school full of bright girls with promising futures. In a nutshell, she was better-placed there than in the coed school she'd attended before - and she never again had to listen to her classmates taunting her for being a know-it-all teacher's pet.

hermy_weasley2

May 7th, 2004, 11:14 pm

purplehawk

May 7th, 2004, 11:46 pm

It was the girls with my daughter, too. Vicious they can be!

crookshanksmom

May 8th, 2004, 1:42 am

Wab

May 8th, 2004, 2:03 am

Taking babies of unwed mothers in the past has caused untold agony over the generations that reverting to such a system would be a symptom of a barbaric society.

HollywoodBob

May 8th, 2004, 2:32 am

purplehawk

May 8th, 2004, 2:41 am

Would it be more or less barbaric than bringing these children into an environment in which their only hope of salvation is through the generosity of their grandparents? Look at the statistics above. The "untold agony" is right now squarely laid on the babies born to these girls or, conversely, the grandparents. Why not lay it on those who make such a mess of so many lives?

I don't agree with Crookshanks on the subject of abortion. I do agree, however, that there needs to be severe repercussions to the kids - male and female - who are playing jeopardy with the children they conceive. I honestly think adoption is an alternative to having an innocent baby raised by a teen mother and/or father. Whether adoption is granted to the grandparents (if they petition) or a total stranger, to the teen parents I would say "Sorry about your luck, but you brought this upon yourselves."

Now there's a novel idea. Just imagine today's kids trying to face up to the problems they've made for themselves and dealing with the concept it's all their fault.

Hollywood Bob, you are so right! The trouble is having a baby won't help ease those empty feelings the kids have. That has to come from within. Children do love their parents - even bad parents who are abusive, violent, and neglectful. That fact alone might be even sadder than the plight of the child who parented another child.

Wab

May 8th, 2004, 2:55 am

From a report on the forcible removal of children:

"As early as 1951, John Bowlby identified infant separation from the primary carer and institutionalisation as causally connected to a variety of psychiatric disorders in adulthood ranging from anxiety and depression to psychopathic personality (Bowlby 1951, Wolkind and Rutter 1984 page 34). The reason for this seems to be that the primary carer was not replaced by a person with whom the child could form a loving attachment. (This is not to deny that sometimes the infant's primary care-giver poses risks to the child and must be replaced.) "

And it bred further trauma:

"Most forcibly removed children were denied the experience of being parented or at least cared for by a person to whom they were attached. This is the very experience people rely on to become effective and successful parents themselves. Experts told the Inquiry that this was the most significant of all the major consequences of the removal policies."

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/special/rsjproject/rsjlibrary/hreoc/stolen/stolen24.html#Heading19

Although the experience of the stolen generations is specific if springs from the same impulse expressed by crookshanksmon abortion or "the child should be taken by the state the moment the child gives birth".

purplehawk

May 8th, 2004, 4:02 am

hermy_weasley2

May 8th, 2004, 4:31 am

Youd be surprised how many girls have unprotected sex while hoping in the back of thier minds that they will get pregnant and have a cute little baby to take care of. KNOWING they have to give up the baby or have an abortion would make sexually active teen scrambling to use condoms or the pill so they wouldn't have to face that sort of trauma

True, but that's only part of them, many of them, maybe, but not all. You can't generalize the problem so you can't generalize the solution. If one law could be made that could solve the whole problem, there wouldn't be a problem.

Teen pregnancy is due to lazy, non-displine parenting, NOT due to abortion.

With some teenagers, having parents who are too much the opposite of what you described (constantly reminding them of right and wrong, good and bad,etc.) can lead them to rebel beyond what they normally would. That, and a lot of teenagers, including myself, don't want to believe anything their parents say about things like this. A lot of times, you have to hear it from someone else besides your parents when you're a teenager before you'll actually give it any credit. All teenagers are different, though, so you never you know.

HollywoodBob

May 8th, 2004, 4:34 am

One would think considering the shear numbers of children who are either in foster care, wards of the state, or in adoption limbo, there would be enough so that people that wanted to adopt would be able to without having to either wait years, or go outside the country and adopt foreign children. I think the adoption process needs streamlined, and frankly if you want to adopt a child, you shouldn't be able to ask for anything more than a child, you shouldn't be given the option to custom order your children like a new Toyota. The people that I know who have adopted got (don't really like any property terms but nothing else fits) cambodian children and were so grateful to have gotten a child, they could have been green and had antennae and their new parents would have loved them just the same.

-HollywoodBob

purplehawk

May 8th, 2004, 8:32 am

Most adoptive parents want newborns. The older children - those removed from the homes of abusive or neglectful parents - are often special needs children. Sadly, no one wants them. The same is true of African-American children, who are usually the kids left behind in foster care hell. The good news here - if there is any - is that African-American girls are the only segment of the teen population in which the birth rate is declining.

Wab

May 8th, 2004, 4:48 pm

I wouldn't want to see infants in an orphanage or under the state's care for any amount of time, but aren't there families out there dying to adopt? Why not place these children right away with adoptive parents?

Sad fact is that unlike people who can conceive naturally or get lucky in the assisted pregnancy stakes, adoptive parents have to jump through hoops to prove that they are financially secure, a stable couple and with (in most cases I've heard) a clear criminal record.

It's a rigmorale but I suppose the authorities want to be entirely sure as the kids have been through enogh anyway.

crookshanksmom

May 8th, 2004, 4:52 pm

The infants from teenage mommies would be adopted in a hearbeat, especially if the infant if white or asian. The kids who don't get adopted are the ones who are over the age of 3.

EmilyRose

May 8th, 2004, 6:06 pm

You know, I think that the teen pregnancy statistics can be a little confusing, because they list anyone of a certain age having children.

I was 18 when I got pregnant. I am a statistic. I was treated appallingly because I was 'another stupid teenager who got pregnant' (a statement I overheard from a doctor as I was walking into a room).

I was a legal assistant/law clerk. I had been engaged for quite some time. I was fairly far along in my degree. Yes, I got pregnant earlier than I'd planned (I was at the time on Ortho-Tricyclen), because I'd intended to wait until after I graduated to have a baby, despite the fact that my husband and I were going to be married before I graduated.

I put off the marriage until after I had the baby, so I wouldn't have to switch insurance companies, and kept going to school. I was, therefore, an unwed pregnant teenaged girl. And I got hell for it, because I was a shameful statistic, regardless of my situation.

I'm still going to school. My husband and I are married, and not because a pregnancy 'forced him into it'. My son is a perfectly healthy and well cared for little flirt.

Yes, it can be a bad situation for younger girls who were not as far in their education or as stable in their home situation. I've met 12 year old girls who were pregnant. I do believe there's something going wrong in that sort of situation. I'm more concerned with the pre-teen pregnancy rate, when a local middle school has a certain area of their alternative center set up for pregnant girls, since they get approximately 8 a year (they are -not- a big school).

As for -teenagers-, there are actually many different situations. I've looked into it, since I was a statistic myself. Yes, some of them are quite difficult. Yes, sometimes I agree that adoption is a better idea. No, I don't agree with abortion even in the case of teen pregnancies (it was mentioned to me by a nurse, because of medical issues that I have always had that made my pregnancy difficult).

I was a pregnant teenager, but I don't believe that I have any reason to feel ashamed of my situation. It still rankles me that I was treated so badly because of it. I fully believe that it is fairly ridiculous to be completely judgmental about all girls under a certain age that become pregnant.

Masterfroggy

May 8th, 2004, 7:43 pm

Few teens realise the hardships they will be putting their children through when they become pregnant, nor do they consider the full implications that comes with being a mother.
Now it is not uncommon for teen girls to become fertile and be able to carry a baby, (the trigger pointy is reached at a specific weight (somewhere around 7 stone 7lb) but it is reached long before they are emotionally able or mature enough to understand the long term difficulties of parenthood, as the general weight of preteen girls in increasing so is early menstruation (in Europe girls begin this phase of their life around ten or eleven, in some areas of the USA it is starting around eight or nine)

The fact prove that the truth is directly opposite to the view held by some within this thread because in the U.S.A, 7 in 10 women who had sex before age 14, and 6 in 10 of those who had sex before age 15 report having had sex involuntarily. In other words they were raped, and the stats also show that their sex partners were likely to be at least five years older than the girl involved. (The Alan Guttmacher Institute, New York,)

Getting away from that, most of the “teen pregnancies“ occur to girls aged between 19 and 20 (over 60% in fact Source: Henshaw SK, 1999.)

Of the million incidences of pregnancy to teens 26.4 percent end in abortions

The health implications to the teen mothers and their children (which can be combated by good prenatal care good diet and supplements) are far less than the health risks to older women who become mothers after the age of 30 or more years of age)

The use of abortions by teens in American society has fallen from 40.6% to just under 29.2 % and is continuing to fall year on year

It is still wrong for teens to be allowed to practice unsafe sex (and in my opinion any form of sex until they reach the age of consent) all teens should be educated about sex from a early age (by their parents) and if their parents are not up to it by the state, abortion is not the answer, nor is punishment, education is the only way, and instilling in society real moral and real role models that all people can look up to,

Television has a lot to do with the corruption that faces society, but television can reverse the damage,

Let the idiot box in the corner of your room reflect the truth of society
90% of all people who have unprotected sex will become pregnant with in one year (showing casual sex in televisions shows reinforces the belief that sex is a harmless recreational past time with no consequences)
80% of criminals shown on television news programs are from the minority races yet only 20% of criminals come from the minority races.
That says a lot more about the program makers and the type of people they are, than it does about your society

purplehawk

May 8th, 2004, 10:01 pm

Frocks, I disagree with the statistics on girls reporting sex under 15 as involuntary. I don't think they understand the word "involuntary." If they're in a car or inside the apartment of an older boy and the pair end up having sex, that's not exactly an involuntary act on either party. I have met these girls and counseled with several of them. I've heard them say "I didn't mean for it to go that far." And when asked why they were there in the first place, the answer was almost always "I don't know."

I would bet my last dollar these same girls, if asked, would call their first sexual experiences involuntary. I would call them outright liars. "I didn't mean it to go that far" or "I wasn't wanting that to happen" both sound like better cover stories than "I wanted to have a baby."

DsX Phoenix

May 8th, 2004, 10:33 pm

To go a little further than that, the girls may feel it was "involuntary", but that doesn't mean the male was forcing himself on her. She could have felt obligated to give the guy what he wanted (which he may have been pushing for - not forcing, which are 2 completely different things) due to what she felt was the normal situation, or from what her friends had told her.

Or, the guy could have been pushing her for sex, which again, is different from forcing someone to have sex with you, and she was too afraid of being dumped to say no. She could then feel that the sex was involuntary, but she wasn't raped.

purplehawk

May 8th, 2004, 11:14 pm

"Involuntary" is a five-year-old's excuse... right up there with "I did it on accident!" when confronted with a broken figurine.

Masterfroggy

May 8th, 2004, 11:23 pm

I am sorry purp I have to disagree, I think what happened in many case was, the word ‘no’ was not respected, girls and boys who are not taught the value of themselves have real problems when faced with it come to saying no, and other have a greater problem in accepting the ever changing emotions of their partners,

Were the statistics taken in isolation I would also doubt that such a high percent of involuntary sexual experiences but unfortunately there is also the sad facts that one in ten males under the 12 are brutally assaulted by older people (most known to them) and that is only the reported cases, we are after all talking about minors

They, the girls, might have been carried away in the moment, and gone further than anticipated, but at the final moment decided to stop, but this is the point when willing participation become something more sinister, at the point that the girl said ‘no’ participation on the part of the girl stops.
And force and ultimately rape starts,

Ok you might argue that the morals of the young girl were in question, as she had allowed it to get to the point where there needed to be a decision on her part, (to continue and have sex or to stop) but once she made that decision, to stop the blame shifts from rape of a willing minor to Rape.

I agree that there are girls with limited mental skills that think having a baby will solve all their problems (from a feeling of love, to the dream of better housing,) but also there are girls who’s male partners (mostly older male partners) just don’t understand the word ‘no’

purplehawk

May 8th, 2004, 11:46 pm

We'll agree to disagree then, Frocks. I've seen how predatory these females are. I have gotten up in the middle of the night and found an unknown girl sitting in my family room. I sent her packing. I've had another break a basement window and hide down there, waiting for my wayward son to come home from school. I just did catch her when I noticed the birds sounded a bit louder than they should have. I've sent one out the back door and had her sneak back in the front, and hide under his bed. Another time, I pulled her out of his bedroom closet. I've answered the phone and been asked "Where is he?" or "Who did he go with?" My stock answer for those kinds of questions was, basically, the last time I checked I was his mother. And I've been called b**** and hung up on. I've seen letters addressed to him with return addresses from girls who appropriated our surname and the title "Mrs."

I don't see this behavior as girls getting carried away in the moment, so much as getting carried away with the guy they have their eyes on. Our sons are at as much or greater risk than our daughters in today's world.

Masterfroggy

May 9th, 2004, 12:04 am

I think is best to agree to differ, in my old profession, I have had to pickup the pieces also, girls who have been harassed into situations where they didn’t want to go, 13 and 14 year old girls their minds and bodies ruined by “boyfriends”

I have help to council suicidal girls after they were the victims of such horrors that were I even to hint here, it would have the mods closing this thread,

I have helped to recover the body of a thirteen year old girl after she jumped from building I was working at, to hide the shame of being bullied (by her peers) because she would not sleep with her older boyfriend.

I have to speak as I find, as you have to speak as you find

Froggy

hermy_weasley2

May 9th, 2004, 12:20 am

purplehawk

May 9th, 2004, 12:24 am

It's all good, Frocks. I've never worked with suicidal teens.

I wonder, though... Which group do you think is more representative of teens who get pregnant? I'm pretty sure it's those I've experienced. I once heard a 9yo say she couldn't wait until she had her baby...

Masterfroggy

May 9th, 2004, 12:45 am

I have to say that I personally think it’s both, the catchers and the caught,
I think it is the same with the boys, some catch and some are caught,

I feel that what it comes down to, is no matter who is to blame on the side of the children (don’t forget that most are legally still only children ) society has let them down,

1 their parents are at fault for not giving them the guidance and moral rules to live by.

2 Religion is at fault for not giving the children, a moral code to live by and believe.

3 Schools are at fault for not educating them to a standard where they know (morally) what is right and wrong.

4 The justice system is at fault for not punishing the perpetrators of such a destructive crimes, and thereby warning anyone else that may be tempted to try such thing, that catching them is easy and the punishment is harsh and long lasting

Sadly there is no system of reward for parents whose children are able to distinguish right from wrong, when all around them is the proof that hard work does not pay, and shirking your duty and living of the state is easer than working.

We are facing the end of our civilisation….. it is inevitable, just as the Greeks did, and the Romans, and countless other great civilisations have down through the ages,
In a thousand years time a new people that cover the globe will look back on history and say “but surly the could see what was happening why didn’t the try and stop the decline “

victori praeda

“to the victor goes the spoils”