M-13 - Government research on mind penetration?

[hesdead-dealwithit]

Atlantic Monthly (http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2003/10/primarysources.htm)
Science and Technology

Paging Agent Mulder

The conspiracy geeks and Area 51 obsessives are right—the U.S. government is heavily invested in research projects that brush the borders of science fiction. But many of those ventures aren't top secret, so long as you're willing to wade through the latest budget statement for the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, or DARPA, which contains funding estimates for various projects, including some distinctly sinister-sounding ones.

The spookiest of these is probably the "Brain Machine Interface Program," which promises to "create new technologies for augmenting human performance through the ability to access neural codes in the brain in real time and integrate them into peripheral device or system operations."

In other words, if the project pans out (a rather large "if," to be sure), the soldier of the future will be a functional telepath, controlling equipment from a distance and perhaps even communicating "brain-to-brain" with his fellow soldiers. This may sound implausible, but an article about the project in the journal Nature reports that experiments on rats and monkeys have already yielded remarkable results: electrodes were implanted in the animals' motor cortexes, and when neurons in that region of the brain fired in certain patterns, the electrodes successfully transmitted a signal to operate a simple lever or robot arm.

Meanwhile, neuroscientists in another part of the same program are attempting to transmit sounds and images directly into the brain's auditory cortex, and a third group is aiming to discover whether parts of the human brain can be replaced by silicon microchips. Such "memory implants" could enable the military to insert combat experience into a soldier's head—creating, with the other projects, the possibility that a fighter pilot could "upload" his training and then fly a plane from the ground, all the while following orders beamed from headquarters directly to his brain.
What does everyone think about this?

[little_one]

dats just scary. then we couldnt lie and we'd forever noe what each other is thinking.......that is worse than someone going through your stuff

[BellatrixLeS]

That's by far one of the most disturbing things I've read in a long time. Maybe the government is reading our minds already....

[Auror Williamson]

Extremely disturbing, yet it will no doubt be a reality in 100 years.

Brace yourselves from the incoming tide of "Bush is doing it! He's the one ordering this!"

Gag me.

[Angora]

I think it sounds kind of fishy.

The link that The Atlantic links to (a pdf document) as a source doesn't mention the brain machine or the wrods used in The Atlantic article to describe it.

The DARPA site has it's own write-up (http://www.darpa.mil/dso/thrust/biosci/brainmi.htm). The gist of it is that they're trying to find technology that can combat paralysis or allow subjects to interact with artificial limbs such as biomechanical arms. Not so that they can have telekenisis and telepathy. But the wording is very inaccessable, so it's possible that I'm misinterpreting it. I encourage everyone to read the link themselves.

As for whether it would be good to be telekenetic and telepathic, that's a bigger question than I have an answer for right now.

[Romulus]

Huh, there's nothing in that article about reading the mind of innocent citizens. If this article isn't a hoax, which I doubt (especially in the light of Angora's post), it would merely enable soldiers equipped with microchips to communicate with each other, or with electronic equipment, or to receive information or knowledge.

Anyway, assuming it's true, this is a very exciting development; I only wish it wasn't (apparently) confined to military uses.

[Hagar]

I've heard about this before, sounds pretty cool to me. It would probably be most useful for those with new limbs, they could actually get a new robotic arm/leg and use it just like it was real. I don't know about the whole psychic thing, translating everything the brain does into words would be quite a feat. I like the idea of "memory chips" but I don't know how realistic that is either. But it sure would be useful for that history test tomorrow...

[haycheng]

I think it is the next step of interface after keyboard and mouse. We know that will eventually happen ever without the government. The computer industry everntually may want a better interface. I do worry about the "virus" into your brain or mind reading though. But until then, I would not be too worry about. I could be long die by then.

[hesdead-dealwithit]

Demonstrations of plasticity from the neural system and from an integrated working device or system that result in real time control under relevant conditions of force perturbation and cluttered sensory environments from which tasks must be performed.
That sounds a little like putting combat experience into a soldier, doesn't it?

[Angora]

I'm going to use their example (recognizing and picking up a target and manipulating it) to aid me here and say it sounds like cuasing neurons to fire in a way they might not be inclined to so that someone can say "Look, that's a teacup" then have their arm obey the command to pick it up and drink out of it.

[Weatherby]

I'd be creeped out if I belived this was a possibility. However I doubt it is.

[stellaluna]

Same here Lauren.

I am strongly reminded of the book 1984 by George Orwell.If you're interested; there is a film of it too. The book is a lot better, though. I'll give you a bit of a summary:

In 1984, Winston Smith lives in London which is part of the country Oceania. The world is divided into three countries that include the entire globe: Oceania, Eurasia, and Eastasia. Oceania, and both of the others, is a totalitarian society led by Big Brother, which censors everyone’s behavior, even their thoughts. Winston is disgusted with his oppressed life and secretly longs to join the fabled Brotherhood, a supposed group of underground rebels intent on overthrowing the government. Winston meets Julia and they secretly fall in love and have an affair, something which is considered a crime. One day, while walking home, Winston encounters O'Brien, an inner party member, who gives Winston his address. Winston had exchanged glances with O'Brien before and had dreams about him giving him the impression that O'Brien was a member of the Brotherhood. Since Julia hated the party as much as Winston did, they went to O'Brien’s house together where they were introduced into the Brotherhood. O'Brien is actually a faithful member of the Inner-Party and this is actually a trap for Winston, a trap that O'Brien has been cleverly setting for seven years. Winston and Julia are sent to the Ministry of Love which is a sort of rehabilitation center for criminals accused of thoughtcrime. There, Winston was separated from Julia, and tortured until his beliefs coincided with those of the Party. Winston denounces everything he believed him, even his love for Julia, and was released back into the public where he wastes his days at the Chestnut Tree drinking gin.
This is from here: http://www.online-literature.com/orwell/1984/

[Kizz]

I think it is the next step of interface after keyboard and mouse.
Neural interfaces could have hilarious consequences. I just hope they can separate your thoughts out - imagine word processing anything boring using thought recognition.

[TheBoss]

i honestly dont think it could happen.. feaky if its 'true'.. but y'know, the gov't doesnt let us know everything :p.. what i thought was crazy (not really related) was i saw something on TV about getting animals to do complicated or mundane tasks for humans.. they put electrodes in the brain of the animal, which stimulate the 'pleasure points' in the brain.. and when the animal does what they want they turn it on, and when it does what they dont want they turn it off.. very interesting, course, its still in very very early stages, but could be incredibly useful.. just a thought :)

[dreamingfifi]

That is so weird it sounds like a joke. I hope no one is taking this seriously.

[hesdead-dealwithit]

That is so weird it sounds like a joke. I hope no one is taking this seriously.
It was published in a respectable magazine. You have to take it seriously.

[haycheng]

Unless, it is public in a Nature, science or such, I do not consider it is too respectful. Ever from a famous magazine, such as time, there is mistake. Such magazine are generally lack the knowledge to due with the science discover and lack of reference. For this kind of information, I would only trust it if it is come from an acadamic magazine. Beside, I have never heard of Atlantic Monthly.

Neural interfaces could have hilarious consequences. I just hope they can separate your thoughts out - imagine word processing anything boring using thought recognition.
I am very sure they will one day. I mention by then I will be long die(I am 22). I doubt it will happen soon. Although they may get some improvement in detecting lie by study the brainwave?
I wonder is it possible to ID a person with the brain wave though? :shrug: Do every human being have a different brain wave pattern?

[hesdead-dealwithit]

Unless, it is public in a Nature, science or such, I do not consider it is too respectful. Ever from a famous magazine, such as time, there is mistake.
Do they make mistakes? Of course - all the time. But do they not research the articles they publish? Do they not know the background of what they write? Not very often - otherwise they'd be the National Enquirer.

[Bilbo]

That is disturbing. I hope the research fails and that after the research fails, the government puts bans on things of this nature.

The more I look around, the more I'm reminded of 1984 and that is double-plus ungood.

[stellaluna]

That is disturbing. I hope the research fails and that after the research fails, the government puts bans on things of this nature.

The more I look around, the more I'm reminded of 1984 and that is double-plus ungood.
Yeah Bilbo... I think 1984 is fitting the world and those studies more and more everyday. When I first read this book I hated it because it was just such a 'stupid' science-fiction thingy. But then it hit me. it isn't that unrealistic anymore. So either science fiction is too true too real and normal life or life is becoming more 'unrealistic'. And it is.

[Bilbo]

Yeah Bilbo... I think 1984 is fitting the world and those studies more and more everyday. When I first read this book I hated it because it was just such a 'stupid' science-fiction thingy. But then it hit me. it isn't that unrealistic anymore. So either science fiction is too true too real and normal life or life is becoming more 'unrealistic'. And it is.

The problem is scientist aren't stopping and thinking, "What are all the effects of this research?" Instead, they press their noses to the grindstone, focusing on progress rather than how it will help/hurt humans.

Orwell tried to warn us about so many things, if only we had listened.

[stellaluna]

Orwell got the idea... too few did, you're right Bilbo.

Also Aldous Huxley wrote a great book, "Brave New World" that some of those scientists should read.

[Angora]

I don't find anything particularily threatening about the research in question - but then, I don't think it's mind penetration.

But if it's possible for us to know something, then at some point we're going to know it. So, you could postpone that, I guess, but what would really be the point? Refusing to learn about something won't make it blink out of existance, it'll just make us ignorant about it for X amount of time.

[hesdead-dealwithit]

I don't find anything particularily threatening about the research in question - but then, I don't think it's mind penetration.

Okay, maybe mind penetration isn't the best word for it. But don't you think it would be a little scary if they could put experience into your mind that never happened? Even if it's voluntary? I don't know why, but I just find that horrifying.

[Bilbo]

Orwell got the idea... too few did, you're right Bilbo.

Also Aldous Huxley wrote a great book, "Brave New World" that some of those scientists should read.

I can't believe I forgot "brave New World;"

It was so frightening to read books by Orwell, Bradbury and Huxley. Now, they're the reality.

[hesdead-dealwithit]

I can't believe I forgot "brave New World;"

It was so frightening to read books by Orwell, Bradbury and Huxley. Now, they're the reality.
Another scary apocalyptic novel - [url=http://www.lostbooks.org/reviews/1998-06-11-1.html]Earth Abides[url] by George R. Stewart. Few have heard of it, but I found it in the attic a while ago and was mesmerized. It's a little different from Orwell and the like, because it's not, on the surface, especially criticizing an aspect of society, but if you look deeper you'll find a lot.

Anyway, let's get back on topic.

[Angora]

But don't you think it would be a little scary if they could put experience into your mind that never happened? Even if it's voluntary? I don't know why, but I just find that horrifying.

I don't think that's what they're doing either. :) But I don't find the idea especially disturbing. It would be incredibly useful if people could pick up skills through having them put directly into their brains.

[Hagar]

Gah, I just remembered some article I was reading a while ago about microsoft looking into using something like this as a game controler for Xbox 3 or 4. It was pretty cool, they actually had a guy hooked up to what looked to me like a EEG and he was playing pong by just thinking. It was pretty wicked and I wish I could find the article again...

[hesdead-dealwithit]

It would be incredibly useful if people could pick up skills through having them put directly into their brains.
Sure, it would be useful. I'll grant you that. I don't know, I just wouldn't like that to happen to me - even if it would help me. If they could do that, what's the next step? - no one goes to school because they just throw in all the stuff anyone will have to know?

[stellaluna]

Well, if you think on a bit into the political area I think that is way more shocking then not going to school anymore... A government that perfected this technique that is mentioned in the last bit of the article could manipulate the people into voting for them. They could change all kind of stuff in the people's opinion's so taht there's no resistance. And with the perfect-soldier thing they could built a regime to rule all the world. Think about it and **** that nonsense about not going to school anymore.

Ok, it could be that my mind is ****ed up from reading too many books and seeing Star Wars too often but this is scaring.

[hesdead-dealwithit]

A government that perfected this technique that is mentioned in the last bit of the article could manipulate the people into voting for them.
Not possible, because the power would not fall into one groups hands. I still think the scariest thing about this is giving knowledge and experience that has never happened. Not that it would end up in a dystopia of some sort, but just that it is so contrary to nature, but that it could happen.

[NYCwitch920]

Emphasis on the word: Research. It hasn't been developed yet but they're trying to. It sounds weird and isn't it a violation of a citizen's right. I just think there would be much opposition to any such thing. I doubt that any of us will be old enough to see it come to life (if it ever does).

[stellaluna]

Not possible, because the power would not fall into one groups hands.
Yes, but it would most likely fall into one governments hands (and probably the American..). And the reigning party/group would probably have the power about it.

I still think the scariest thing about this is giving knowledge and experience that has never happened. Not that it would end up in a dystopia of some sort, but just that it is so contrary to nature, but that it could happen.
Yeah but all that leads to something I have spoken about in my previous post; at least in my opinion. Imagine a government to be able to change the opinions of thefolk; of resistance fighters. They could change their politial opinions for sure by giving them another knowledge and memories. Could they remove memories too?

Emphasis on the word: Research. It hasn't been developed yet but they're trying to. It sounds weird and isn't it a violation of a citizen's right. I just think there would be much opposition to any such thing. I doubt that any of us will be old enough to see it come to life (if it ever does).
Yes, but this opposition could be made undone by the means of changing opinions as I've mentioned up there.

I know I'm one of the science-fiction weirdo kids but I don't think it's that unrealistc.

[Fleur]

Actually, I've read about this in my psychology class. All that has been done so far was that the scientists measured the monkey's brainwave activity when they were moving a lever to get a treat. Once they learned the exact brain signal, they implanted electrodes into the monkey's brains. When the monkey's would then just think about moving a lever to get a treat, the lever would move. If I had my book at home, I would be able to give more details. However, putting this research to a complex machine with a complex human brain is a huge step. I'm very skeptical about it.

[halfbreedlover]

This is absolutely disturbing. Wow. Gives new meaning to the word "brainwash".

These are soldiers though, imagine when this happens to private citizens.... I am NOT saying that soldiers are any less important or less human or that they don't deserve the same rights as the rest of us. No one should be treated as a robot. However, it's less disturbing if the use of this technology remains limited to just military operations.

Can't wait to see an updated version of the Patriot Act several years from now....

[ArtemisiaDax]

This is absolutely ridiculous. Neurological research is years away from being able to do any of it. We just don't know enough about the human brain, or about memory, to be able to implant specific memories or to control people. Don't forget, the Pentagon was also funding a pheromone that would supposedly make enemy soldiers irresistably attractive to one another - but did it ever happen? No. The government comes up with crazy research ideas all the time. They just don't have the know-how to implement them.

If a telepathic-control technology was ever invented, its first use would be to aid paralyzed people in being able to function.

[Kaonashi]

I know Russia was doing a lot of studies on extra sensory things (and were apparently light-years ahead of us in research so God knows WHAT they cooked up) but this is the first that I've heard of the US even planning to do such a thing.