Lily - Wandless?

[Ellen]

I'm sure everyone's heard speculation about Lily's second wand. This isn't about that. I just realized the only way I can make sense of Harry's memory of his mother's death is if Lily didn't have a wand or if she was somehow unable to use the one she had.

We know there have only been two wands made with Fawkes' feathers, so it shouldn't have been the reverse spell effect blocking her. Of course, maybe the wand she had then was made from the same yew tree as Voldemort's and that blocked her in a similar way.

Whatever it was, although willing to die to protect Harry, Lily seemed unable to fight. It also makes sense that Voldemort told her to stand aside. It's one thing to say this to a witch who's aiming a wand at you. It's another thing for Voldemort, possibly a bit winded from his fight with James, to try to shove her aside rather than immediately kill her if she wasn't able to fight.

It also would explain why Lily apparently hadn't done more than run - no floo powder or jumping on broomstick - and make good her escape during James' confrontation with Voldemort.

The real question is what was going on? Was her wand gone? Was there something strange about her second wand that made her unable to use it against Voldemort? Had something happened that made her unable to use magic? What was it?

[WeasleyIsOurKing]

It's possible that Lily's wand was not near her at the time - perhaps she left it on the kitchen counter (or in the bedroom, or near Harry's crib, etc.) without thinking, and didn't have it with her when Voldemort arrived at the house. Voldemort could have told her to "stand aside" because she was trying to protect Harry. Maybe she had the wand with her but she was so overcome with fear that she couldn't remember any spells to repel Voldemort - not that it would have worked anyway.

[Gandalf_the_White]

Maybe the Ministry came and snapped her wand in half because she was turning her teacups into mice. I don't know really about the whole thing. For some reason Voldemort didn't just wipe her out. I don't really know why, unless somehow he pitied her or needed her. Maybe he saw a little bit of himself in her.

[ginnythecat]

Excellent observation, apparently she did not have her wand, and really, if someone like Voldemort were after your baby, would you not carry it at all times? I know I would. Maybe Voldemort disarmed her, and we missed that part, or JK did not include it. To me, it almost seemed as though Lily and Voldemort knew each other somehow. I mean, why did he hesitate to kill her, he certainly does not hesitate to kill anyone else. He actually wanted her to stand aside and, presumably did not want to kill her. I wonder...

[NIrvanaFreak]

I don't think it has anything to do with Lily not being able to fight, but just that she didn't have/couldn't reach it.

[ginnythecat]

Really, though, did she not have it, or was Voldemort just too unbelievably powerful for her to attempt to fight?? Where was James???

[WeasleyIsOurKing]

Really, though, did she not have it, or was Voldemort just too unbelievably powerful for her to attempt to fight?? Where was James???


Umm... James was dead. :shrug:

Like I said before... she could have left it somewhere in her house. She could have set it down unconsciously and didn't realize she didn't have it with her.

[Minerve]

I'm sure everyone's heard speculation about Lily's second wand. This isn't about that. I just realized the only way I can make sense of Harry's memory of his mother's death is if Lily didn't have a wand or if she was somehow unable to use the one she had.

We know there have only been two wands made with Fawkes' feathers, so it shouldn't have been the reverse spell effect blocking her. Of course, maybe the wand she had then was made from the same yew tree as Voldemort's and that blocked her in a similar way.

Whatever it was, although willing to die to protect Harry, Lily seemed unable to fight. It also makes sense that Voldemort told her to stand aside. It's one thing to say this to a witch who's aiming a wand at you. It's another thing for Voldemort, possibly a bit winded from his fight with James, to try to shove her aside rather than immediately kill her if she wasn't able to fight.

It also would explain why Lily apparently hadn't done more than run - no floo powder or jumping on broomstick - and make good her escape during James' confrontation with Voldemort.

The real question is what was going on? Was her wand gone? Was there something strange about her second wand that made her unable to use it against Voldemort? Had something happened that made her unable to use magic? What was it?

Lily's wand was made of willow, not yew - Ollivander said so in PS. I would assume that Voldemort used the disarming charm so Lily could not defend herself. I am also convinced that Voldemort was not alone in Godric Hollow that night otherwise how could he get his wand back afterwards?

[MaraudersGirl]

Ummm Im not sure what this 'Lily's Second wand' thing i about but I think that she just didn't have one on her at the time, or she wa sto distressed to remember to use it. I mean, wouldn't you be too if Voldemort was facing you and telling you to stand aside so he could kill your only child?

[harp230]

The second wand thing refers to the fact that Mr. olivander remembers Harry's mom coming to buy her first wand as a begining hogwarts student. Implying that she had another wand at some point.

[Katze]

Lily's wand was made of willow - good for charm work.

I think Lily had her wand with her, but she expected to die when Voldemort found her. This ties into the protection that she gave Harry. Because she expected to die, there was no reason to run, and no reason to fight. But that's another thread.

[Ellen]

Lily's first wand was made of willow. Given how wands seem to symbolize aspects of the wizard or witch, I'm not sure I can see Lily going to sinister, poisonous, death associated yew. Then again, if being made from the same tree creates limits in the same way sharing cores does, it's a possibility.

[dianaP]

I think she just forgot it somewhere who knows, but I've been thinking about the relationship between voldemort and lilly almost since the first book.. they are connected someway.. I have/had the most strange idea's about thoose 2.. but one that always seems to come back is this one : what if Voldie's mother is lilly's grandmother.. I dont know why I keep coming back to this, it just doesnt make sence.... eighter way lilly and voldie knew eachother.. and voldie def. felt something for her why else would he ASK her 2 step aside... he didnt want to kill her, but eventualy did because he had to kill the "chosen one" .. also petunia ( sorry if it isnt spelled right ) knew voldie or atleast she knew who he was.

Maybe lilly knew voldie through snape, we all know the thoughts about snape actually being an Evans.. and we also know snape knew voldie maybe thats how lilly and voldie came in contact with each other.. anyhow thats just my thought... I have many more on lilly and voldie :P but thoose really dont make sense.. ( neighter does this one.. but oh well )

[rotsiepots]

Lily's wand was made of willow - good for charm work.

I think Lily had her wand with her, but she expected to die when Voldemort found her. This ties into the protection that she gave Harry. Because she expected to die, there was no reason to run, and no reason to fight. But that's another thread.

I like this idea. Lily's sacrifice is, well, exactly that. It wasn't unintentional, nor accidental; it was a completely selfless act and I like the idea of Lily preparing herself for it.

That being said, Voldemort didn't come to Godric's Hollow with the intention of killing Lily so maybe, on some sub-conscious level, she was aware of this? There must have been underlying reasons for Voldemort targeting James and Harry only, so it's quite likely that Lily was aware of what these were and realised that she may not have been in danger when Voldemort eventually found them. Perhaps for this reason she didn't have her wand handy at the time?

I'll need to think about this for a while longer.

[story]

I agree, more likely she was never going to attempt to fight Voldemort. She was concerned only with giving Harry protection through her own death.

[lupe]

story your theory makes sense.Of course she is going to protect Harry. He was her priority and she was more willing to find a way to keep him safe by escaping then to take out her wand and shout out a spell. He could have easily attacked harry when she attempted to say a spell.
I'm just wondering why he didn't blast them both instead of worrying about only killing Harry. He didn't seem too concerned about killing all of the other muggle borns.What makes lilly so different?unfortunately that's another thread and up for J.K to decide.

[Raven]

She probably didn't have her wand with her when the time came to face Voldemort down.
Ginny: according to Prisoner of Azkaban, Lily, Harry, and James were protected by the Fidelous (sp?) charm. If Peter hadn't turned traitor, they would have been safe for years.
She really had no reason to carry a wand with her at all times.

I'll let somebody else elaborate further, if they want too. I'm so tired, the world is starting to spin.

[Liselle]

lilys first instinct would have been the protection of her child, not facing off with Voldemort I think

[sindatur]

Is it possible that while James was fighting Voldemort, Lily was performing her ancient magic, and slipped her wand into baby HArry's crib, so it could act as a conduit for the protection when Voldemort killed her, so that when Voldemort cast his AK on HArry, it caused the rebound effect that vanquished Voldemort and left Harry marked (scar)?

[ginnythecat]

She probably didn't have her wand with her when the time came to face Voldemort down.
Ginny: according to Prisoner of Azkaban, Lily, Harry, and James were protected by the Fidelous (sp?) charm. If Peter hadn't turned traitor, they would have been safe for years.
She really had no reason to carry a wand with her at all times.

I'll let somebody else elaborate further, if they want too. I'm so tired, the world is starting to spin.

An excellent point, but I guess being a somewhat frantic and overprotective mother myself, I trust nothing fully when it comes to my kids protection, (carseats, the sturdiness of swingsets, locked doors, etc.,) I think that my own instincts lead me to think that I would still have that wand handy. But I do like the theory that Lily Knew that she would be dying to save Harry, and was therefore prepared for this eventuality, and had no need to fight. Great theory. It seems to me that everyone involved had their doubts about the Fidelius Charm, because it depended too much upon the reliability of another, and human frailty has destroyed many lives.

[ginnythecat]

Umm... James was dead. :shrug:

Like I said before... she could have left it somewhere in her house. She could have set it down unconsciously and didn't realize she didn't have it with her.

I understand that James was probably dead at this point, what I was referring to when I asked "where was James?" was the obvious omission in the flashback scene, not the actual location of his body. I am still intrigued at the way the scene was presented entirely without James. Did Voldemort kill James that quickly? He was obviously a powerful and smart wizard. Why was his part omitted from the scene. This is, however, for another thread.

[ginnythecat]

I'm sure everyone's heard speculation about Lily's second wand. This isn't about that. I just realized the only way I can make sense of Harry's memory of his mother's death is if Lily didn't have a wand or if she was somehow unable to use the one she had.

We know there have only been two wands made with Fawkes' feathers, so it shouldn't have been the reverse spell effect blocking her. Of course, maybe the wand she had then was made from the same yew tree as Voldemort's and that blocked her in a similar way.

Whatever it was, although willing to die to protect Harry, Lily seemed unable to fight. It also makes sense that Voldemort told her to stand aside. It's one thing to say this to a witch who's aiming a wand at you. It's another thing for Voldemort, possibly a bit winded from his fight with James, to try to shove her aside rather than immediately kill her if she wasn't able to fight.

It also would explain why Lily apparently hadn't done more than run - no floo powder or jumping on broomstick - and make good her escape during James' confrontation with Voldemort.

The real question is what was going on? Was her wand gone? Was there something strange about her second wand that made her unable to use it against Voldemort? Had something happened that made her unable to use magic? What was it?

I think those are really good insights, but it just occurred to me, wasn't a wand necessary to perform her "ancient magic" (see Sindatur, I believe, above) I think Sindatur is on to something there. She may have been using her wand to perform the charm for protection prior to her death. I would imagine that simply dying to protect him would not seal the charm, but that some further incantation, etc, or preparation would be necessary. What does everyone think?
Oh, that whole second wand issue, I subscribe to the "Steve Kloves" error theory, rather than that Lily necessarily had two wands. I guess we need to look more carefully at what was implied there with the word "first" and whether you cant have a "first" without necessarily a second. I think you could buy a first wand without ever having purchased a second. it would still be your first, and only wand. This is way too rambly.

[Morgan LeFay]

It seems to me that everyone involved had their doubts about the Fidelius Charm, because it depended too much upon the reliability of another, and human frailty has destroyed many lives.

I wonder: did Lily know Sirius and Wormtail switched? She should know but it seems like it was something only between S. and W. And do we actually know, that it was DD, who put Fidelius Charm on Potters' house?

It's a bit out of topic, but I wonder, if Lily had her reasons to have her wand all the time with her. Did she know that not Sirius, who was like brother to James, and also to Lily I think, but Peter was their secret keeper?

[ginnythecat]

That is exactly what I keep asking myself, it really seems as though everyone sort of doubted everyone, and people were switching things without telling the others in order to try to make things more difficult to discern. WHY OH WHY did they not use Dumbledore?? It just seems so silly to have used anyone else. Not only were they putting the person used in obvious danger, since Voldemort would obviously torture everyone till he found out, but doesnt it seem logical to use the one wizard whom Voldemort feared?? (I guess we are sort of straying from the lily wand thing)

[SnowyOwl]

Hindsight is 20/20. It made perfect sense to use Sirius--who would've died rather than reveal the secret. It was incredibly poor judgement, and Sirius does not have a great track record in this department, to switch to Pettigrew. Sirius, who suspected Lupin (and vice-versa) of passing info, just thought that the "perfect bluff" added yet another layer of protection.
According to PoA, James and Lily were persuaded by Sirius to make the last minute switch.
On topic: We don't know how long it took Voldemort to kill James, but I agree with others that Lily was just thinking about grabbing Harry and getting out of there. It also cannot be easy to think clearly enough to fight someone when you know your husband has just been murdered.

[Ellen]

Using Sirius didn't make sense to me till OotP. Then, we get to find out what James and Sirius were like. Although it looks like they matured later on, I could still see them as wanting to make some kind of clever move that Voldemort wouldn't see coming.

I can't entirely blame them. People do crazy things when they're in great danger and/or under tremendous pressure, things that may seem to be against the best interests for their physical survival but that play a big part in their ability to cope. Taking the risk, trusting a friend with their lives, and outwitting Voldemort, these things were part of the people James and Sirius were.

Yes, it was dumb. But I can see how being that way helped them cope with the dangers they were dealing with.

Of course, I'd also like to think that they had were making practical use of it as well and that they hoped to lure Voldemort or his spy out where they and/or Dumbledore could get him.

[Geneva]

Really, though, did she not have it, or was Voldemort just too unbelievably powerful for her to attempt to fight?? Where was James???

Dead of course. Voldemort killed James, then went after Lily and Harry. We know this from PoA.

[story]

We don't really know this. Harry only heard a man's voice?

[Heir_of_Ravenclaw]

Uhm, well put it this way. In the third book we discover that Voldemort hesitates from killing Lily. We know this because Harry was there and he witnessed it all. Then in the fifth book we discover thatVoldemort wanted to kill Harry because of the Prophecy. So, it wasn't because HArry and James were the Heirs of Gryffindor, and the Heir of Slytherin wanted to get rid of them. No!

But, I wonder, if Voldemort wanted to kill only Harry, what if he told James too, to stand aside? I mean, Harry couldn't know since he was in the other room. So, Voldemort could have told James, too, like Lily, to stand aside, but when they both didn't move than he didn't have anyother choice but to kill them.

However, there's something that I don't understand. Peter was in the Order, so he could have told Voldemort about Lily and James being there, too. But why wouldn't he kill (let's suppose he has laready killed James!) a Muggle-born, who is one of his greates nemesis and is in the Order of the Phoenix? I mean, if he let her free, she would go to Dumbledore, and Dumbledore would have had AT LEAST one missing person, not two, like it actually happened. So the mystery fog continue lying over this facts and theories!!

[Pucko]

lilys first instinct would have been the protection of her child, not facing off with Voldemort I think

i agree with you...she probably didn't think of using her wand, or knew she was powerless against voldie with her wand...or she didn't have it right next to her, she could have dropped it or whatever

[Heir_of_Ravenclaw]

I don't think so! I mean, shooting spells is a wizard's instict! And it was worth a try to curse Voldemort, even if she had no chance!!

[Liselle]

Uhm, well put it this way. In the third book we discover that Voldemort hesitates from killing Lily. We know this because Harry was there and he witnessed it all.

ok did voldie actually hesitate in killing Lily or did he tell her to get out of his way so he could have a clean shot at Harry?

Then in the fifth book we discover that Voldemort wanted to kill Harry because of the Prophecy. So, it wasn't because HArry and James were the Heirs of Gryffindor, and the Heir of Slytherin wanted to get rid of them. No!


how do we know James and Harry weren't descendents of Gryffindor? if Voldemort didn't want to kill Lily but did want to kill James and Harry we need to think specifically what did they have that would be a threat to him that Lily doesn't? Gryffindors blood maybe? slytherin left Hogwarts after a nasty fight with gryffindor and didn't come back, that we know. This strikes me as a bit of foreshadowing in that Voldemort/aka Tom Riddle left Hogwarts after seventh year and never returned, there was bad blood between himself and Dumbledore. (I hope this makes a bit of sense even if it is a little outlandish!).

But, I wonder, if Voldemort wanted to kill only Harry, what if he told James too, to stand aside? I mean, Harry couldn't know since he was in the other room. So, Voldemort could have told James, too, like Lily, to stand aside, but when they both didn't move than he didn't have anyother choice but to kill them.see my point above!

Also if Lily was holding Harry in her hands when Voldemort came into the house then she really wouldn't be up to holding her wand too would she......

Liselle

[Morgan LeFay]

Remember that LV didn't know all the prophecy! Maybe he decided to kill Harry, not Neville, because of something else, not only a fortune. He thought that Harry will be in some part more dangerous for him than Neville. But why?

[DarkRaven]

Greetings
Remember that LV didn't know all the prophecy! Maybe he decided to kill Harry, not Neville, because of something else, not only a fortune. He thought that Harry will be in some part more dangerous for him than Neville. But why?
I think that goes back to how ever it was that their parents 'thrice defied Voldemort', prehaps Voldemort saw that James and Lily were more powerful and thought that natrually their child would be.

I don't actually believe James and Harry are desendants of Gryffindor, i think Dumbledore is, but thats for another thread. Anway so Voldemort was probably just after Harry as he was apart of the Prophecy. I think he dueled with James and killed him, then went after Lily, he knew where she was and he is very powerful so even if he weren't in the same room as her he probably could have done 'expelleramus' and disarmed her.

Iv been thinking about this though and has it actually been stated that Voldemort killed Lily? I don't own any of the books so i can't check up on this, but what if it were the actual spell that she preformed to protect Harry that killed her. A life for a life kind of thing, you give up your life to protect a person and that person gets protection. I mean as far as i can rememeber Voldemort sent an AK curse at Harry right? well what if he had done that after Lily had given her life by the spell and was dead, because as soon as she preformed the spell she died? does that make sense?

[story]

I think I'm right in saying that the scene in the PS movie was actually written by JK - so it looks like Liliy was killed by Voldemort.

[Liselle]

Greetings



Iv been thinking about this though and has it actually been stated that Voldemort killed Lily??
Lily is dead, Harry remembers he dying, she appeared out of the wands with prior incatum ( or however that is spelled)


also I think that Voldie did know about the prophecy, remember DD said that there was someone in the pub who over-heard it that night? Voldie didn't know all of it, only about the one who would defeat him being borm to parents who had thrice defied him being born atthe end of July

Liselle

[DarkRaven]

Lily is dead, Harry remembers he dying, she appeared out of the wands with prior incatum ( or however that is spelled)
I'm not saying Lily's not dead, i'm just saying she might not have been killed by Voldemort. but never mind, it was justan idea anyway.

[SiriusPadfootGrl]

I think that...Lily was overwhelmed with Voldemort actually finding their house, James being dead, and Voldemort standing right in front of her.

Imagine it. You have a secret keeper. Someone you trust. Then Voldemort shows up. This has to be a shock.

Then. Your husband was just killed, probably b/c he also was taken off gaurd.

Then you have a mad man, trying to kill your innocent defenseless baby.

She was stressed out.

[Minerve]

I wonder: did Lily know Sirius and Wormtail switched? She should know but it seems like it was something only between S. and W. And do we actually know, that it was DD, who put Fidelius Charm on Potters' house?

It's a bit out of topic, but I wonder, if Lily had her reasons to have her wand all the time with her. Did she know that not Sirius, who was like brother to James, and also to Lily I think, but Peter was their secret keeper?

Lily must have known about the switch but I am convinced that the wizard performing a Fidelius Charm must be informed of the Secret Keeper's identity, after all that Secret is to be "buried" into the SK. If I am right, then Dumbledore did not perform the Charm; according to PoA, he gave evidence that Sirius was the Potters's Secret Keeper, unaware of the last minute switch.

That leads to another question : who did he give that evidence to since Sirius was sent to Azkaban without a trial? I suppose this question should go to another thread ...

[Angel_Wingz]

maybe her wand wasnt nearby and she couldnt get to it! or maybe voldemort doesnt care she has a wand pointing at him cos he's powerfull and shes not so she cant really do much to him?

[Angel_Wingz]

:) maybe she couldnt get to her wand or maybe voldy dint care she was pointing a wand at her cos he powerfull and she isnt so she cant really do much to him?

[SnowyOwl]

Lily must have known about the switch but I am convinced that the wizard performing a Fidelius Charm must be informed of the Secret Keeper's identity, after all that Secret is to be "buried" into the SK. If I am right, then Dumbledore did not perform the Charm; according to PoA, he gave evidence that Sirius was the Potters's Secret Keeper, unaware of the last minute switch.

That leads to another question : who did he give that evidence to since Sirius was sent to Azkaban without a trial? I suppose this question should go to another thread ...

Dumbledore gave evidence to Barty Crouch, senior. Remember how Sirius talked about this in GoF when he was hiding out in the cave? He said that Crouch became just as ruthless as the Death Eaters in his zeal to lock up the bad guys.

[Tirwen Lupin]

Well, I think the simple answer would be that Lily was too panicked to use her wand. It can be hard to do things like that, even if they're so obvious, in a terrifying life-or-death situation. It was no doubt unexpected, James may have been overcome quickly... It would scare the living daylights out of anyone.
But it still does seem odd.
I liked Ellen's idea in the first post of this thread that Lily's (second) wand and Voldemort's were made of the same wood, which might have made it impossible for her to fight him. There's something suspicious about that--Ollivander remebers every wand he ever sold, so he shouldn't have allowes Lily to buy the wand, if it was he who sold it to her. I'm not saying I think Ollivander is evil, but he seems to mysterious for us to already know everything important about him right now.

[o_O]

well maybe ollivander didnt sell it.

[PlaceboAddict]

I had an idea, and forgive me if it's already been said - I'm in a rush, so I didn't read all the posts too thoroughly.


My theory is that Lily meant to die. The 'charm' she did on Harry to protect him would only work if she sacrificed herself. If she had her wand and started dueling with V-dawg, and he said something like 'petrificus totalus' to her, she would have been frozen while he took on Harry. So chances are, the charm on Harry was a last resort, and would have more chances of saving Harry than her dueling with V-dawg. James was dead, the house was blown apart, there was nobody left but her, Harry and V-dawg. She did what she had to do to protect Harry. The charm had already been performed (something like that wouldn't be able to be done last minute,) so she wouldn't need her want. She wouldn't want him to see her wand, because then he'd probably try dueling with her. The only sure way to protect her son would be to die, and hope that V-dawg hadn't thought of her plan...

Thoughts?

[story]

Yep that was my feeling too, posted above

[Tirwen Lupin]

My theory is that Lily meant to die. The 'charm' she did on Harry to protect him would only work if she sacrificed herself. If she had her wand and started dueling with V-dawg, and he said something like 'petrificus totalus' to her, she would have been frozen while he took on Harry. So chances are, the charm on Harry was a last resort, and would have more chances of saving Harry than her dueling with V-dawg. James was dead, the house was blown apart, there was nobody left but her, Harry and V-dawg. She did what she had to do to protect Harry. The charm had already been performed (something like that wouldn't be able to be done last minute,) so she wouldn't need her want. She wouldn't want him to see her wand, because then he'd probably try dueling with her. The only sure way to protect her son would be to die, and hope that V-dawg hadn't thought of her plan...
V-dawg? There's one I haven't heard before! :lol:
But I think your theory could be possible. Lily, strong as she may have been, would have had slim chances in an outright duel with Voldemort. She probably knew about the charm that would protect Harry if she died.
But if I understand what you said, that charm would have been something that she performed beforehand, in the same way that normal spells are performed. It always seemed to me that the charm was somehow (for lack of a better word) automatic. She wouldn't need a wand to do it. It was simply there bacause she died to save Harry. It's my opinion that she didn't deliberately allow herself to be killed; she loved Harry too much to just step aside and let him die.

[Minerve]

Dumbledore gave evidence to Barty Crouch, senior. Remember how Sirius talked about this in GoF when he was hiding out in the cave? He said that Crouch became just as ruthless as the Death Eaters in his zeal to lock up the bad guys.

Thanks, SnowyOwl! I had forgotten about that one ... I wonder who performed the Fidelius Charm; it is said to be immensely complex (Flitwick, in PoA) and I guess not every wizard is able to do it. Who then? Because this person should have been able to innocent Sirius (I guess I should go and find a thread discussing what happened that famous night ...)

[Fortescue]

I don't think anyone has thought of this yet... What if Lily did have her wand? What if she was shielding Harry with some sort of charm of her own making, or possibly her body. What if Voldemort wanted her to stand aside because only if she released the charm (or died, as he thought) could he get to Harry.

[Minerve]

I don't think anyone has thought of this yet... What if Lily did have her wand? What if she was shielding Harry with some sort of charm of her own making, or possibly her body. What if Voldemort wanted her to stand aside because only if she released the charm (or died, as he thought) could he get to Harry.

Galoping Gargoyles! You might be hitting the nail on the head here ... I've always been convinced that Lily indeed used a Charm to protect her son, probably a Charm she "invented" herself. Luna's mother died while experimenting with Charm stuff, I think she was an Unspeakable - and so was Lily.

[Morgan LeFay]

Wow - Unspeakable? I like that idea. I think Lily had her wand, and that's how she could perform the unusual spell - and DD could not know about it. That's why he couldn't find out the way Harry lived.

[sindatur]

Fortescue, that's along the same lines as I was alluding to on the first page, that perhaps Lily's wand was actually in HArry's crib, waiting for Lily or Voldemort to make a final action that activated the protection. I definitely think this line of reasoning makes the most sense from what I've seen theorized about Lily and her wand and fighting back. Glad to see someone else thinking along those lines, makes it seem more reasonable.

[Liselle]

Wow - Unspeakable? I like that idea. I think Lily had her wand, and that's how she could perform the unusual spell - and DD could not know about it. That's why he couldn't find out the way Harry lived.
dd did know how Harry lived, as Mrs Weasley said "he never misses a trick"

I liked Ellen's idea in the first post of this thread that Lily's (second) wand and Voldemort's were made of the same wood, which might have made it impossible for her to fight him. There's something suspicious about that--Ollivander remebers every wand he ever sold, so he shouldn't have allowes Lily to buy the wand, if it was he who sold it to her. I'm not saying I think Ollivander is evil, but he seems to mysterious for us to already know everything important about him right now.
Ollivander remembers all the wands he sold true enough but how would he know that Lily would end up duelling with Voldemort.....anyone else know its suspicious that Ollivander knew that it was Tom Riddles wand that gave Harry his scar? when not many people know that Tom Marvolo Riddle became Lord Voldemort....now thats what I call suspicious!

Liselle

[EndlessDreamer]

OKay this may not be what i'm suppose to do but I have no tiem to read this all at the moment but i love the topic so I'll be back!

[EndlessDreamer]

dd did know how Harry lived, as Mrs Weasley said "he never misses a trick"


Ollivander remembers all the wands he sold true enough but how would he know that Lily would end up duelling with Voldemort.....anyone else know its suspicious that Ollivander knew that it was Tom Riddles wand that gave Harry his scar? when not many people know that Tom Marvolo Riddle became Lord Voldemort....now thats what I call suspicious!

Liselle


That is suspicious! I had never even noticed that before! Good spotting.

Anyways if it was suspicious for Ollivander to sell Lily a wand made from the same tree as Voldy's then wouldnt it be doubly suspicious that he sold Harry his wand with the same core??? I don't think Ollivander really has a choice in what wands they get, I mean the wand chooses the wizard, and if a wizard doesnt have the proper wand then they wont reach there full potential.

OKay back on track now I like the wand in the crib theory and how Lily had to activate the charm somehow, even though it was an old magic. And Lily being an Unspeakable could work, because she could have learned about this fully while in the room in the DoM with the power, which we learned about in OotP.

[LilyEvans]

ARGH! I always wondered this! Hooray!

Every drawing I have ever done of Lily and Voldemort and Harry - she has never had her wand. Cos I saw no evidence she was carrying it.

I think her being an Unspeakable is rather likely.

Plus, despite the Charm which may have come into effect on Harry on her death, I think she was too terrified to fight with Voldemort. She made herself as little of a threat as possible. So much so that he didn't want to take the time to kill her.

She was a mother pleading for her child's life - I think that is really the point being made by JKR. No matter how powerful a witch she was, she couldn't prevent someone from trying to kill her child, so she took his place.

[Gator2005UC]

Well, you have to remember about harry, he was about a year old when this happened... His memory may not be EXACTLY how it happened. Anyone remember anything from when they were one. My first memory was from when I was four, and I don't remember it that well.

[MoodyMania]

Uhm, well put it this way. In the third book we discover that Voldemort hesitates from killing Lily. We know this because Harry was there and he witnessed it all.

Hello all, just saw this board a few days ago and this is my first post. Now on to my observation.

This part confuses me. If indeed Harry saw what happened when Voldemort came to their place in GH and witnessed the death of his mother then why couldn't he see the Thestrals until book 5? (after he saw Cedric die)

Does this maybe mean that either what he sees in his dreams/visions are planted memories or that maybe his mother didn't really die that day. Or maybe just an oversight by JKR, though I think this is the least likely one.

[Silverbolt91]

J.K answered that question in a chat a while ago. She said death had to really sink in to see the thestrals, and since Harry was so young when his parents died he couldn't really chomprehend it. But when Cedric died, he could fully understand it.

[Marisa]

Ooh i never even thought about him not being able to see the thestrals his first 4 years at Hogwarts...

About the Lily thing, I just think that it probably wasn't near her and her instincts told her to run and hide...

[MoodyMania]

My main thought was that in all his dreams and visions he is always seeing his mother die, thus my question about the thesrals. If he didn't see this happen then why see them in his visions/dreams.

And Silverbolt91, I had not seen or heard of that interview so that could maybe explain it. But I like the idea of false images being planted so he would think his parents were dead. Would be nice if at the end both he and Neville got their parents back. Wishful thinking on my part maybe.

[Darkillness]

I prefer the wandless Lily theory that was first posted, because I think that Lily was way underestimated by readers and Voldemort alike. Looking at the Pensieve scene and things we know about Lily, it does not match between known knowledge and that flashback Harry had. She was a stormer, not a screamer. She was a Gryffindor after all.

[Flee From Death]

Anyways if it was suspicious for Ollivander to sell Lily a wand made from the same tree as Voldy's then wouldnt it be doubly suspicious that he sold Harry his wand with the same core??? I don't think Ollivander really has a choice in what wands they get, I mean the wand chooses the wizard, and if a wizard doesnt have the proper wand then they wont reach there full potential.

I was under the impression that Dumbledore and Ollivander were friends, or at least knew each other. Remember Dumbledore tells Harry in GoF that Ollivander wrote to him, and told him Harry had bought Voldemort's brother wand?

"'Yes,' said Dumbledore. 'Mr. Ollivander wrte to tell me you had bought the second wand, the moment you left his shop four years ago.'"

GoF, "The Parting of the Ways," p605 (UK)

It sounds like Ollivander may know quite a lot about the fight with Voldemort. Or maybe I'm reading too much into one quote (oh well ...)


Also, I've always been under the impression that the magic which protected Harry was so, for lack of a better word, deep that it didn't need a wand to perform the charm: this would be similiar to how there was no wand needed to seal the connection between Harry and Wormtail.

It does seem odd, though, that she never tried to defend herself with a wand, which to me suggests that she did know exactly what she was doing. And that does seem like a Gryffindor: imagine the courage you would need to be prepared to not even fight for your life in that kind of danger. I don't think it would matter that it was, if you like, pre-meditated; she showed true love by dying for her son.

[Arthur Weasley]

I think that she was probably hit with a disarming charm ("expilliarmus") right when You-Know-Who caught her. She was probably planning to defend herself as well as Harry, but after losing her wand, she then felt her life was lost anyways and chose to save Harry's life by sacrificing her own.

[LilyEvans]

I prefer the wandless Lily theory that was first posted, because I think that Lily was way underestimated by readers and Voldemort alike. Looking at the Pensieve scene and things we know about Lily, it does not match between known knowledge and that flashback Harry had. She was a stormer, not a screamer. She was a Gryffindor after all.

It's a completely different scenario. Though you do have a point. But going up against the most evil wizard of all time, wandless, and to have the courage not to fight. Just to stand and ask. That takes much more courage than standing with a wand in your hand.

I think the most important thing to her was protecting Harry. Not getting out alive. That is courage.

Besides, people change. She was fifteen in the flashback. A stroppy teenager facing the boy who had a crush on her.

But I agree that she was probably wandless, because otherwise, she would have been able to get Harry out, maybe?

[Flee From Death]

As someone else said, if she knew what she was doing she would have had to force Voldemort to kill her. And she did: she could have just 'stood aside,' but she chose instead to shield Harry. If she had just had, for instance, the full body-bind put on her the charm wouldn't have worked.

And I agree with Lily: it takes far more courage to allow yourself to be killed to protect someone else than to stand and fight. It was a completely selfless act and that's why the charm worked. I still don't really think there was any "spell-work" (i.e. a wand) involved.

[LilyEvans]

Or if there was, then possibly it was carried out beforehand. After all, Luna's mother was a witch who experimented - Lily could have been experimenting with a Charm.

And yet it doesn't seem likely. After all, Voldemort himself said, "This is ancient magic, I was foolish to overlook it."

[RadicaL]

I know this isn't exactly on topic but, the theory that Lily and LV were related has come up and consider that they were related, it would make perfect sense for Lily not to attack Voldemort and for Voldemort to tell Lily to stand aside, rather than just killing her as he probably would have done to anyone else. The love Lily had for her relative would stop her from trying to defend herself but, LV is evil and he can't let his emotions get the best of him he kills Lily; although not without warning her to step aside first!

[LilyEvans]

JKR said that Harry was not related to Voldemort. Therefore Lily was not related to Voldemort. At least not in the usual sense. Just to clear that up.

[minitink]

JKR said that Harry was not related to Voldemort. Therefore Lily was not related to Voldemort. At least not in the usual sense. Just to clear that up.
Took the words right out of my mouth! Not just that though, if they were related (contrary to what JK has told us), do you really think voldermort would care? I mean, he killed his own father, I don't think he'd mind killing a distant relative.
As for why he didn't automatically kill Lily, well no one knows but Voldermort himself. I heard a theory though from someone(dont remember who, sorry) that wormtail was in love with lily, so in exchange for the information, he wanted lily. To me, that sounds pretty plausible. Also, about the charm, I agree that it didn't need a wand to be preformed. Magic that ancient and powerful is kind of like a wizards debt, you don't need a wand to do it.

[Darkillness]

It's a completely different scenario. Though you do have a point. But going up against the most evil wizard of all time, wandless, and to have the courage not to fight. Just to stand and ask. That takes much more courage than standing with a wand in your hand.

I think the most important thing to her was protecting Harry. Not getting out alive. That is courage.
That's more what I meant, but it came out backwards. Sorry!! :blush:

[Hali Felton]

i say he told he to stand aside because, despite the fact that he's E-VIL, he might still have had some soul left in him. she she was probably unarmed. It would be completly wrong to attack an un-armed person. Maybe he was giving her a chance to live. . . ? (sorry. i read the first page or so, but i just don't have enough time to read all the replies.)

[Vendetta]

Magic that ancient and powerful is kind of like a wizards debt, you don't need a wand to do it.

No, but you do need something else, something much older and more valuable. A human sacrifice.

Lily deliberately allowed herself to be killed to protect Harry, the act and intent of her sacrifice were the source of the magic.

[Layla]

We don't actually know if Lily needed a wand to perform that bit of "ancient magic". The chances are 50-50. However, we can safely deduce that it was probably Lily who performed the Fidelius Charm to protect her family since she was so good with charms and therefore, she must have known it was Wormtail that betrayed them.

I wonder, would the "ancient magic" have worked as effectively if she tried to fight LV?

DD explicitely states that she protected Harry by sacrificing herself... which seems to lend support to the theories that she couldn't use her wand in order to invoke the (charm? magic? spell?) that eventually saved Harry's life. Lily, therefore, must have intentionally 'hid' her wand and pretended to be defenseless and panicky to prevent LV from noticing what she was really doing.

This presents a picture of a calculating, logical, cool headed woman who intentionally 'acts' weak and hysterical to acheive her end-goal and seems much more in-line with Lily's character from what we know of her especially from Snape's worst memory: emotional, yes, but when insulted, she doesn't break down or cry, she cooly retorts with an equally insulting comment, all the time keeping her cool. In fact, she strikes me as a much more balanced character than James who seems to have taken a very long time to grow-up.

Lily must have also been quite a good witch because it is explicitly mentioned that James eyed her wand 'warily' when she stood up for Snape. Now... why would a good Witch NOT attempt to fight LV when faced with him especially since she has already done so 3 times before?

[Miss Potter]

Probably, Lily didn't manage to actually master the ancient magic that can destroy Voldemort but she knows and have mastered the ancient magic to keep her son alive. More to that, the prophecy that was made shortly before Harry's birth... She must knew it... She must knew it and James knew it, they knew that they can;t change it, the best that they can do is to protect Harry and so they did, with wand or without wand... I think James was using a wand... But, ancient magic might not require Lily to perform it with a wand...

[Revolution]

Ancient magic doesn't need a wand. It comes from the heart. Lily put herself between Voldemort and Harry, because she loved Harry so much, that she'd rather die protecting him, and that sacrifice let her cast ancient magic.

I don't think you'll really know if you perform ancient magic. It must be caused by emotions, and you can't control emotions.

[Miss Potter]

maybe you're right... who knows?

[DayVirgo]

I'd like to know is what happend to Lily's wand after she bit the dust. We've always been told what Lily's wand was made out of and why it was important. I've always thought that maybe Voldemort took it and it might show up again in the final showdown. It would prevent any problems that had happend before with similar cores.

Also, it is strange that Lily might not have had her wand. And I don't think that it was the result of a forgetfull mistake. Do you think that maybe James also did not have his wand?

[MoodyMania]

I'd like to know is what happend to Lily's wand after she bit the dust. We've always been told what Lily's wand was made out of and why it was important. I've always thought that maybe Voldemort took it and it might show up again in the final showdown. It would prevent any problems that had happend before with similar cores.

Also, it is strange that Lily might not have had her wand. And I don't think that it was the result of a forgetfull mistake. Do you think that maybe James also did not have his wand?
Well Voldemort couldn't have taken it because of his condition after attacking Harry. So whoever grabbed his (Peter?) could have possibly taken hers as well.

[Remus Black]

My impression was that she either didn't have it with her at the time, or that she was afraid to use magic in the face of such a powerful wizard as the Dark Lord.

[sirias]

Hi there, just a few thoughts (and questions) from me:
I think the theory about Lily's wand and YouKnow who's wood being the same isn't relevant. I personally think that the wands core is what is essential. If the core is the same, then you can't, not the body. It's like a car. Your car can have exactly the same body and colour as mine, but it comes down to what lies under the hood...

I also think that dying and protecting Harry was not planned step by step. I agree with Revolution, It comes from the heart. That is something you don't plan. If it ws plannable (I don't even know if that word exists!), I would completely expect You know who to be prepared for it. It is one of those things that just happened.

I also think it is as much in a wizards being to grab a wand as it is for us to go to the loo. It comes completely natural and I think Lily probably had her wand with her, maybe even tried to do something that we are not told about etc.
everything we have learned so far about Wizards is that they know how to use wands and that it is always with them- where they keep them I don't know, but that is irrelevant. The fact is: Voldemort is powerful and evil, that is why it's is strange that he actualy gave Lily a second chance.

I have always imagined evertything happening as follows. Lily pleading with him. You know who pushing her aside. He aims at Harry. Lily jumps infront 'catching' the curse. Dying. You know who aims again and fires. Nothing planned from Lily, just instinct.

Can someone please refresh my memory: Unspeakables?
Maybe also just a random thought: The Potters fighting back- doesn't that count as defying Youknow who? Does it then make three, or does it become four?

[msmooney]

I really like Layla's idea that it was Lily who preformed the Fidelus Charm - she was good with charm work, and then all evidence of Wormtail's betrayal would die with her, leaving him free to act out his heinous little plot.

Unspeakables: work in the Department of Mysteries. Beyond that, we aren't really sure what they do.

[stupiddeer]

maybe lily knew about the prophecy and did not want defy voldemort for a fourth time and knew harry would survive

[blackmoon]

Magic is often cast without a wand in the books. I think the skill of directing the magic to exactly where you want it to go, and the ability to do complicated spells are linked to skill with a wand, and having the right wand. In magical duels/battles a lot of people miss.

Lily could easily have cast (purposefully or not) her love into Harry as a protection without her wand.

So, where is her wand? If Lily will be more important in the next two books, where is it? Did she loan it to someone? Did it get pulled out of the rubble of the house? Could Hermoine have it (twist and coincidence)? If it was delivered to Harr, could he wield the magic of her wand using the power that Lily put into him?

I doubt she had a second wand. The "first wand" comment is likely a matter of speech. I mean, Harry has his first wand and it's working fine.


The comments about wand construction are probably a viable topic as well...
- Phoenix feathers are in Harry's and Voldemort's wands, rebirth and return?
- Lily's was willow, long and flexible and good for charms work (posted earlier here also) so we can assume Lily was good with charms?

[azkaban]

well, this is a really good thread, i'd really like to congragulate ellen :) these are very logical theories.
we all know that lily put some old protective charm on harry by sacrificing herself for him. and we know that she was good at charms. but the thing we ddidn't get the chance to figure out yet is her eyes. it's said that harry having her mother's eyes will be important in the next 2 books. so it makes sense to me that maybe lily was able to make charms without her wand but her eyes.
i believe that while james was fighting voldemort and giving lily time to escape, lily considered dying for harry without duelling might be more useful for her son in the long term than running or challenging voldemort. and i think she did it with her eyes because voldemort said that the charm she put on harry was something even he couldn't think of. so i think the charm wasn't some classic thing made by wand, it has to be more complicated and harder to make and maybe lily's talent in charms made her do it with her eyes? that way, she mustnt have thought about her wand.

[deathfairy87]

None of that makes ANY sense

[behindtheviel20]

lily had two wands? that thread cofused me

[Tonks04]

i think that she just didnt have the wand at the time, and as to floo powder or broom, what would it be doing in harry's room, if James was outisde the room the hall or whatever, he was blocking the entrence, its not as if Lily would go down there as well with harry in her arms would it So i just think that she didnt have the wand with ehr at the time

[Dreath]

I would not confuse what we have seen in the movies with what we read in the books. Harry did not see either of his parents die. I am not sure the lily running away holding harry scene is accurate. he saw no one die until Cedric. I do not think Lily needed a wand for what she did. I think that will tur out to be the point. The reference to her "eyes" is not a refernce to an instrument (like a wand) but her power- whatever that may be, that allowed Lily to save, pause, deflect, protect Harry.

We know death curses do not typically leave marks (the Riddles, Cedric). We know they do not destroy houses. I can't remember if they appear "green", Harry's only real memory. Something did substantially destroy the Potter house and Voldemort at the same time. The clearest answer is something Lily did without a wand (willow and swishy, good for charms).

You do not need a wand to cast magic. Harry did it at least three times. 1. to get away from Dudley's gang (fear induced), 2. to free the boa (empathy induced) and 3. his aunt (anger induced). Each time there is an emotion involved. I can think of no greater emotion then a mother's (or father's) desire to protect her child. a force Voldemort can not understand.

Where I am intrigued by the course of events that night is 1. why Voldemort warned Lily- makes no sense from what we know about him if she is holding a wand. If she is not she may be perceived as powerless. "I will deal with you after I take care of this." and 2. where is Lily's wand- oddly Hermione's is willow if I recall correctly. Coincidence?

[SeekerLynch]

Whatever it was, although willing to die to protect Harry, Lily seemed unable to fight.
Just because she didn't fight, doesn't mean she wasn't able to.
It also makes sense that Voldemort told her to stand aside. It's one thing to say this to a witch who's aiming a wand at you. It's another thing for Voldemort, possibly a bit winded from his fight with James, to try to shove her aside rather than immediately kill her if she wasn't able to fight.
Voldemort wouldn't have been winded from his fight with James, because there probaby was no fight. Voldemort could just blast him apart.
It also would explain why Lily apparently hadn't done more than run - no floo powder or jumping on broomstick - and make good her escape during James' confrontation with Voldemort.
Perhaps she couldn't get to a broom (garage?). Also, she was probably very scared and couldn't think. People in danger often don't act rationally. This is also probably the reason that she didn't fight. Or maybe she had left her wand in the other room or something. There's no reason to think that there was anything weird or abnormal about it.

[trekkie450]

-First were is this theroy of Lily second wand?
-Second it was an OLD magic spell. I think JKR is talking about old Celtic powers or incantaions with just word of old (Not latin). basiclly i dont think she needed a wand prob was more like a ritual, similar to the one that brought LV back and activated by her sacrifice.

[Tonks04]

Or maybe she didnt have her wand with her at the time, she could have left it in the kitchen, or whatever. Even it might have been in her pocket but didnt have time to reach it, and she ovbiously knew that she couldnt fight agasint him.

[winter snow]

Is it possible that while James was fighting Voldemort, Lily was performing her ancient magic, and slipped her wand into baby HArry's crib, so it could act as a conduit for the protection when Voldemort killed her, so that when Voldemort cast his AK on HArry, it caused the rebound effect that vanquished Voldemort and left Harry marked (scar)?

That's very insightful! You know, the memory Harry has may be only partial. I mean, the fight between Lily and Voldermort could have started with him knocking her wand out of her hand. Perhaps she had already put a charming spell on Harry while Voldermort was killing James. We see Lily holding little harry, with no wand in her hand. She probably knew that Voldermort was going to kill her, so she did what she could to protect Harry, and because she sacrificed herself to save Harry, that fouled Voldermort's plan to kill Harry.
Harry would not have see James in this memory because James was killed in another room, possibly downstairs, near the entrance to the cottage.
Do you think Wormtail could have been at the cottage with Voldermort that night?
I'm missing something here. Lily has two wands? I know the wand Harry has is a twin to Voldermort's, Ollivander says this in SS. I honestly can't remember Lily having two wands. How did I miss that?

[Thorofasgard13]

The second wand thing refers to the fact that Mr. olivander remembers Harry's mom coming to buy her first wand as a begining hogwarts student. Implying that she had another wand at some point.

I was just wondering does this mean that she actually had more than one.....Harry bought his first wand from Ollivanders....I bought my first car from some place but i still have had only that one.

[londonknight]

Maybe Snape had a deal with Voldy that he could kill Harry but Lily was his unless she got in his way. :eyebrows:

It was probably more a reactionary thing. James fought valiantly and quite obviously died. Lily was too worried about Harry to be thinking about battling Voldemort. She probably went to him and held him or stood in front of the crib like a blockade. When Voldemort said step aside the first thing that a Mother would do would be to not step aside, and her thought process would be clouded at that point.

[Ranador]

interesting. She could've just left it somewhere I guess... but I'd really like to see an in depth recounting of what actually happened.

[Benko Opening]

I think that James put on quite a fight. He was the best at everything in his year, so it stands to reason he was very talented.

Furthermore, when Hagrid gets to Godric's Hollow, the house is destroyed. The AK curse causes death instantly, with no "side effects". I don't see why Voldemort would have been firing off curses which do physical damage unless he was battling with James... And for the whole house to be destroyed I would guess the battle must have lasted for some time.

[lewis8604]

Didn't LV say something about James fighting valiantly in GoF when he is telling Harry to bow to death. That to me means that it was something memorable.

I think that Lily was performing the ancient magic while LV and James were fighting, then when he came in she just finished and ran to protect harry leaving her wand or she just couldn't think

[atherella]

Since we're talking about wandless magic, here is what JKR has to say on the subject. (I found lots of great quotes yesterday while digging around for something. :lol:)

Do you need a Wand to do Magic??

You can do unfocused and uncontrolled magic without a wand (for instance when Harry blows up Aunt Marge) but to do really good spells, yes, you need a wand.

I think I saw another quote too, but I didn't mark it I guess, so I'll update this quote if/when I find it. I think it may have had a bit more detail in it than this particular one did.

[Mizaru]

From the movie mistake thread:
Well when Liliy is fighting off Voldemort she doesn't have a wand to fight him off with
From IMDB.com
In the script, the flashbacks to Voldemort killing Harry's parents were written by J.K. Rowling herself. The producers knew she was the only one who knew exactly what happened.

That got me thinking...what if that wasn't a mistake? If JKR wrote that scene, maybe she's not supposed to have a wand... Was it some kind of wandless magic she did? Does this change anything?

[TexAnn]

I think that DD explains this, just by sacrificing her life for Harry, it is a magical protection. No wand needed.

[coljoo]

well it is known that magic can be done without a wand, but it is generic magic such as blowing up your aunt. But with enough anger or fright you may be about to move objects to protect you. If I remember correctly (and i cant check, im at work) when Harry blew up his aunt he was so angry the doors to the cupboard just burst open. With no wand he made something move, meaning lily could have used her intense fears to move things to protect her. All speculation of course but it does seem possible.

[Monica_Potter]

I definetly don't think that Lily had a wand when she was killed, I think James did because in Harry's dementor back flashes he hears James say that he is going to try to hold him off. But if JK Rowling got to make that whole scene and every detail would be perfect. So if a wand was required to protect Harry then Lily would be carrying a wand. But she is not, so I don't think she had or needed one.

[spacecase]

I want to know, more importantly (maybe?) ...why didn't she have a wand with her? If you knew that Voldemort was after you, wouldn't you keep your wand with you? Even Harry kept his wand with him at all times, you would've thought that Lily would've had something for protection, in case something like that happened, she'd be prepared. Did something happen to the wand prior to the attack? Did Voldemort walk in and say "Accio Lily's wand" before he started the dirty work? Did she simply not have it with her that second? Did she really think that Voldemort would find her since only one person knew where they were?

[coljoo]

I would think lily didn't have her wand with her because they were in hiding, the only way that voldemort could have found them is if their secret keeper gave them up. Who would have thought that wormtail was a spy for voldemort? They were completely safe until wormtail spilled their whereabouts.

[padfoot1128]

Maybe Lily knew once Voldemort showed up, she was as good as dead. So maybe to do the magic she did for harry, and sacraficed herself, it would be more powerful without one. Just an idea.

[Mists_of_Avalon]

Also, I think they (Lilly and James) were pretty much caught off-guard by the attack. Perhaps Lilly didn't have enough time to get her wand, and sacrificed herself for Harry without it. Its still horrid that Voldemort killed her and James without remorse though.....

[louise57]

I agree, it was such a surprise that she probably didn't even think of her wand, she just thought about Harry's safety and ran to him.

[LilCubanita67]

She probably did have her wand. When you go through the books and you see the students in their rooms, in the halls, in their houses they always have their wand in their pocket, I've never heard of Harry just leaving his wand on the table in his bedroom while he's at Privet Drive (even though he's not allowed to do magic since he's underage).

I agree with everyone else in saying that Voldemort wasn't going to waste time taunting or torturing her, he was just going to say Avada Kadavra on both Lily and Harry and be done with it.

Lily was too busy protecting Harry to leave him and duel with Voldemort.

[Denton56]

I agree with the above theories.

Harry's Dad, being a male (that's not a knock against anyone I'm a guy too), was naturally wanting to defend his family by force.

Lily was acting off her motherly instincts and was protecting Harry differently.

[nerdypants]

I think a good question to ask is, Where are James and Lily's wands now? Were they destroyed with their house? Or are they being preserved somewhere, like in another Gringotts vault? We know there's something significant about Lily's wand and how it was good for charms. Maybe Harry's supposed to find it and use it somehow.

[spacecase]

The first time that I saw the SS movie, I actually started watching it after the scene with Harry's parents in it. I only saw that scene for the first time when I bought the DVD after christmas this year, and I was actually surprised because it showed more about their deaths (kind of) than was shown in the books. I found this a bit odd, but I wouldn't imagine that it would have been in the movie if it wasn't exactly what JKR wanted.

Maybe Harry is supposed to find the wand. Maybe they knew that the prophecy had to come true. They would have had to know that their being in hiding was only going to be temporary, and that they would eventually be found. In that case, maybe someone else had Lily's wand. Maybe Dumbledore has it or it is indeed somewhere in a Gringott's vault. Perhaps it might even be in the vault with the rest of the money that Harry's parents left for him. I'm sure that when he's gone in there, he didn't think to search around for stuff, let alone his mother's wand.

[Mists_of_Avalon]

The first time that I saw the SS movie, I actually started watching it after the scene with Harry's parents in it. I only saw that scene for the first time when I bought the DVD after christmas this year, and I was actually surprised because it showed more about their deaths (kind of) than was shown in the books. I found this a bit odd, but I wouldn't imagine that it would have been in the movie if it wasn't exactly what JKR wanted.

Maybe Harry is supposed to find the wand. Maybe they knew that the prophecy had to come true. They would have had to know that their being in hiding was only going to be temporary, and that they would eventually be found. In that case, maybe someone else had Lily's wand. Maybe Dumbledore has it or it is indeed somewhere in a Gringott's vault. Perhaps it might even be in the vault with the rest of the money that Harry's parents left for him. I'm sure that when he's gone in there, he didn't think to search around for stuff, let alone his mother's wand.

Thats a very good theory. :tu:

[salem_phoenix]

Voldemort attacked Lily, then Harry. The curse rebounded, so Voldemort could not have destroyed Lily's wand, nor could he have it with him, s he was rendered bodyless. Does it say anywhere what happened to the Potter's house? It can't have been completely destroyed, because Harry was alive inside of it. I'm certain that we haven't seen the last flashback of the night of the Potter's deaths.

[SnapeLova]

i have a questions since we are talking about harry's parents...did harry's mother perhaps have a friend she was very close to that might know alot of things we(and harry) dont and maybe could show up later in the books? harrys father had alot of close friends...it is quite possible that lily did too...

-snape

[spacecase]

Snapelova, I'd been wondering the same thing. You'd think that she would have had some friends. Someone would have had to know something. I think that we're supposed to find out more about Lily in the next book. Maybe we'll find out about her close friends and/or relationships that she might have been in before she ended up with James. We might find something out about her from Snape. He hated James because he basically taunted him and was a bully, but he shouldn't have had much against Lily (except that she was a muggle born).


Just a thought...maybe Petunia has Lily's wand somewhere!

[ArtemisiaDax]

The Underground Lake has a theory that Pettigrew was at the house that night with Voldemort and grabbed both Lily and James's wands. I think that Maline Freden in the North Tower also has a theory similar to that one. Otherwise, you'd think that if their wands had been in the wreckage, that Hagrid might have picked them up when he got Harry.

[runitzandrew]

Well if she did have her wand, apparently it didn't help much. Also, if she did, that'd mean that Voldemort probably took it after he killed her and gave it to another DE or something.

[Monica_Potter]

The Underground Lake has a theory that Pettigrew was at the house that night with Voldemort and grabbed both Lily and James's wands.


I think that is a really interesting idea. . .. hmmm. I have a feeling that JKR will tell us exactly what happened the night the Potters were killed. Whether through Voldemort or Wormtail but I think we will know before the series ends.

[rotsiepots]

Hi Mizaru,

I'm going to merge your thread with this (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=19107) existing thread.

Please ensure you conduct a search (http://www.cosforums.com/seach.php) before you start a new thread.

Thanks! :)

[thestral83]

Of course she is going to protect Harry. He was her priority and she was more willing to find a way to keep him safe by escaping then to take out her wand and shout out a spell. He could have easily attacked harry when she attempted to say a spell.
I'm just wondering why he didn't blast them both instead of worrying about only killing Harry. He didn't seem too concerned about killing all of the other muggle borns.What makes lilly so different?unfortunately that's another thread and up for J.K to decide.


i agree with this theory...

[FootbagFanatic09]

I'm not sure what made Voldemort go after the potters. What did they do to get him to come after them. Thats what i want to know. I think lily and james did something but we didn't find out what it is yet.

[Smaky2511]

Maybe there is some sort of spell to undo cetain ones, and can only be preformed if you have the wand which did the spell. (Confusing, I know.) But maybe Lily used her wand to put the ancient magic on Harry, and if there really was a spell that can undo certain spells (maybe could undo that one, but not death or anything, we already know that can't be undone) maybe she destroyed her wand so it could not be undone. This is just a theory, and probably unlikely, but here it is regardless.

[Tane]

Maybe the spell Lily used is similar to the binding spell that seems to give a life debt to another wizard after there life is save. Such a debt comes from deep within the heart just as Lily's protection of Harry came from her love deep within. Both are selfless acts and can lead to the protection of another life even if this means the other wizard or witches death.

[Stayce]

I haven't read the posts yet but saw the topic and thought what if Lily was wandless and her protection was completely nonmagical in application? It is something that Voldemort would not understand two fold. Both love and being without magic woud be difficult for him. Anyway because Lily is magical maybe her sacrafice created the blood protection without her doing the magic. Just a new thought for me. Off to see what your theories are.

Footbag have you read OotP yet. The answer to why Voldemort came after the Potters is in it.