M-13 - Global Future of Catholicism and Next Pope

[JofpGallagher]

I have created this thread for Catholics and non-Catholics to express their views of the future for this religion that has more than 1 billion followers (Including me), and about the future Pope.

Currently, there are 1.057 billion Catholics (About 1 Catholic per 6 people) spread as follows in decreasing order:
Latin America *** 461 Millions *** (Approx. 85 Catholics per 100 people)
Europe *********** 286 Millions *** (Approx. 39.3 Catholics per 100 people)
Africa************* 120 Millions *** (Approx. 14.3 Catholics per 100 people)
Asia*************** 110 Millions *** (Approx. 2.9 Catholics per 100 People
North America*** 71 Millions *** (Approx. 23.0 Catholics per 100 people)
Oceania********** 8.2 Millions *** (Approx. 25.6 Catholics per 100 people)

That makes Latin America and Europe the continents with more Catholic followers per population. Oceania and North America (Canada and USA) are very similar, and Asia (Except in the Philippines) as the continent with less probability to find a Catholic, but growing briskly.

The Pope just celebrated his 25th anniversary as the principal figure in the Catholic Church. From The Wall Street Journal: “Italian newspapers are publishing biographies of the Cardinals and diagrams of the Sistine Chapel, where the secret ballot takes place. Bookmakers are calculating the potential nominees’ odds.” The reality is that “the 83 year old pope, is wracked by Parkinson’s disease, knee and hip ailments, and other illnesses”, and it’s no a surprise to start thinking about the future of the Catholic Church and his successor.

IMPORTANT NOTE from me: I’m Catholic. I’m not wishing our beloved John Pope II to resign or less to die. I consider him as one of the best Popes in the Catholic Church history. I was just thinking about these issues with concern about the future since I consider the current Pope as a great world Leader that will be hard to replace. The Pope plays an important role in the global society. He is also a mortal man, and unfortunately he will leave us one day.

Among the future possible candidates are 5 Latin American, 4 Italians, and 1 African’s cardinals. The candidates are described below:

1) Francis Arinze (Nigerian). 70 years old. Assisted Vatican’s dialogue with Muslims, Hindus, and Buddhists. Considered CONSERVATIVE
2) Jaime Lucas Ortega y Alamino (Cuban). 66 years old. Archbishop of San Cristobal de la Habana. Considered CONSERVATIVE
3) Norberto Rivera Carrera (Mexican). 61 years old. Archbishop of Mexico. Considered CONSERVATIVE
4) Giovanni Battista Re (Italian). Diplomat in Panama and Iran. Considered MODERATE
5) Christoph Schoenborn (Austrian). 58 years old. Archbishop of Vienna. Considered CONSERVATIVE
6) Angelo Scola (Itallian). Patriarch of Venice. Considered Open-Minded CONSERVATIVE…signaled as a favorite within Catholic Church.
7) Dario Castrillon Hoyos (Colombian). 74 years old. Prefect of Clergy, president of Ecclesia Dei. Considered CONSERVATIVE
8) Godfried Danneels (Belgian). 70 years old. Archbishop of Mechelen/Brussels. Considered PROGRESSIVE
9) Claudio Hummes (Brazilian). 69 years old. Brazilian Archbishop of Sao Paulo. Considered CONSERVATIVE
10) Oscar Andres Rodriguez Maradiaga (Honduran). 60 years old. Honduran Archbishop of Tegucigalpa. Considered CONSERVATIVE
11) Angelo Sodano (Italian). 75 years old. Vatican Secretary of State. Considered CONSERVATIVE
12) Diongi Tettamanzi (Italian). 69 years old. Archbishop of Genoa. Considered MODERATE

Questions

1) Do you think is premature to think of a new Pope?

2) Pope Nationality matters? Which nationality would you prefer the next Pope to be? Should be from dense Catholic populated regions or from parts of the world that needs a Catholic “boost” like the USA or France? Why?

3) Would you like the future Pope to be conservative, moderate or progressive?

4) Do you believe the world is a better place without the figure of the Pope? Why?

5) What feelings awake in you the current Pope, John Paul II?

6) Anything that you would expect from the new Pope? Something that needs to be changed?

7) How do you think of the future of the Catholic Church without our charismatic John Paul II?

[Pafiel]

Now I may of only just joined but wouldnt this be better suited for the Hogwarts Chapel (http://www.cosforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=53). That seems to be the place for religious things.

[Manyasha]

Nah, it's better in Knockturn Alley because Hogwats Chapel is a non-debate area, and this thread is pretty much open for a debate, so I'll let it stay here, at least for now :)

[ssimons]

I'm Catholic too...thanks for the bit on the Cardinals, because I had no idea who they were.

I definitely don't think it's premature to think about a new pope...it's obvious that Pope John Paul II isn't in the best state of health. It seems some of the candidates are also very old (which doesn't necessarily mean that their health is failing) so my question is this: is it smart to trade an 83 year old (possibly more) Pope for one who is 10 years his junior?

[PhoenixUK]

1) Do you think is premature to think of a new Pope?
No, it's best to plan now, so that the Church has a leader. As it seems to me, the current Pope seems to be sorting out his successor, which doesn't seem very right: in the end, the church need to make the decision of where it wants to go in the future.

2) Pope Nationality matters? Which nationality would you prefer the next Pope to be? Should be from dense Catholic populated regions or from parts of the world that needs a Catholic “boost” like the USA or France? Why?
He needs to be the best man for the job. No other criteria should be considered.

3) Would you like the future Pope to be conservative, moderate or progressive?
Personally, I'd hope progressive. In the end, for the church to remain attractive to young people in an age where it is faced with an aging population, it needs to consider how to achieve this.

4) Do you believe the world is a better place without the figure of the Pope? Why?
No. Someone needs to decide the policy of the church, and hopefully the Pope, being the most 'in-touch' with God, is the best person to decide this.

5) What feelings awake in you the current Pope, John Paul II?
I think that he was a great Pope, but now might be a good time to move on to someone different.

6) Anything that you would expect from the new Pope? Something that needs to be changed?
As I said before, I think that the Catholic church needs to consider how to reach out to younger people, as the other denominations are already doing, with some pretty amazing results.

7) How do you think of the future of the Catholic Church without our charismatic John Paul II?
It depends on who replaces him. If they are good, then hopefully they will take the church forward into the 21st century, if they are poor, the church will flounder.

[triki1988]

Note: Great thread, Javier!

1) Do you think is premature to think of a new Pope?
It's better be safe than sorry. After seeing the Pope in his 25th anniversary, I began thinking what will happen next.

2) Pope Nationality matters? Which nationality would you prefer the next Pope to be? Should be from dense Catholic populated regions or from parts of the world that needs a Catholic “boost” like the USA or France? Why?
I don't think nationanily matters at all.

3) Would you like the future Pope to be conservative, moderate or progressive?
Conservative.

4) Do you believe the world is a better place without the figure of the Pope? Why?
No. The Pope is a rightful man. He's asked for forgivness for the Catholic church after all the sex scandals there was. The Pope is the head of the Catholic faith on Earth.

5) What feelings awake in you the current Pope, John Paul II?
I always feel warm whenever I see a picture of him. He inspires so much peace and love and trust. He is truly fit for a Pope. It will be horrible when we lose him.

6) Anything that you would expect from the new Pope? Something that needs to be changed?
I would expect him to be a correct person who knows where his head is at. Nobody will be able to copy John Paul II.

7) How do you think of the future of the Catholic Church without our charismatic John Paul II?
It will never be the same. I mean, I grew up with him, so to speak. He created the day of the youth, he was an incredible man with an even more incredible heart. I admire him a lot.

[remusjlupin1980]

The next Pope should be another Pope John XXIII.

For those of you who don't know who Pope John XXIII was, he was the Pope who initiated Vatican II. Without him, we would still be speaking Latin in Mass. He almost single-handedly placed the Catholic Church in the 20th Century by modernizing it. He was a progressive Pope who instituted these changes. The Catholic Church was making some progress but this progress STOPPED when Pope John Paul II came into power said "That's enough." Indeed, I read somewhere Pope John Paul I was about to say artificial birth control is okay but of course, he had to die and Pope John Paul II says "No way." The most progressive things he has done was saying okay to believing in the theory of evolution and made the Catholic Church more active in interfaith relations.

What we Catholics need is another Pope John XXIII. But it looks like it's not happening since most of the people in power in the Catholic Church are also as conservative as he is.

So we're gonna have to wait a while before celibacy among priests become optional, gays will be accepted, Catholic doctrines lighten up on birth control and sexuality and women will be allowed into the priesthood.

[ssimons]

So we're gonna have to wait a while before celibacy among priests become optional, gays will be accepted, Catholic doctrines lighten up on birth control and sexuality and women will be allowed into the priesthood.


Why should celibacy among priests be optional? Men who become priests are giving themselves to God, and they are sacrificing their celibacy, and they should have an understanding of that. The only benefit to having celibacy be optional would be to fight priest shortages. But other than that, what would be so great about instituting a reform that would leave Catholics totally divided on the issue? Does anybody know when the celibacy thing came into play? Has it always been a rule? :huh:

And as far as women becoming priests...As a Catholic woman, I understand the possibilities of my involvement in the Catholic church, and I have no desire to further them by becoming a priest. I have never spoken with any woman who has voiced a desire to be a priest (not that that means that they aren't out there), but the point is that most women in the church don't want to be priests. They can be sisters, who in turn can be commissioned to run a mass in the absence of the priest, and that's okay. The only people that I have ever heard speak about how women should be priests are non-Catholics who have no basic understanding of the religion.

And as far as gays being accepted, do you want gay marriages to be recognized by the Catholic church? Accepted how? If the Catholic church recognizes homosexuals and says it is okay, isn't it pretty much contradicting the bible? And since the bible is the basis for our religion, is the Catholic church really in a place to do that?

I think part of being Catholic is realizing that there are things about Catholic doctrine that you don't believe in. I also don't like the whole birth control thing. I understand why birth control is supposed to be a bad idea, but I think that today it is a smart thing to do. I think there are things about the Catholic religion that I can make up my own mind about because it doesn't lessen my faith in Jesus Christ, and I don't need the pope to tell me that if it's wrong or right.

[JofpGallagher]

The Pope made cardenal to 31 priests yesterday. With that, the Catholic Church is having the largest cardenal population in its history. There are 194 cardenals in the world from which only 135 are able to vote for the new Pope for being younger than 80 years old.
A cardenal 80+ years old cannot vote for a new Pope according to the Vatican rules.

[ssimons]

So if 80+ cardinals can't vote, can they be voted for? Is there an age restriction at all?

[remusjlupin1980]

You may find this article interesting:

THE TOTALITARIAN POPE

David Morris, AlterNet October 19, 2003

Last week John Paul II celebrated the 25th anniversary of his pontificate to thunderous applause by many conservatives. The Weekly Standard's David Brooks argues in his new column in the New York Times that the Pope deserved the Nobel Peace Prize. The San Diego Union Tribune gushes that "John Paul II is one of the towering figures of the last century...no one questions the moral force of this pope."

Time magazine's assessment is far more measured and accurate. It describes John Paul II's time in office as an "extraordinary tenure."

Extraordinary, to be sure, but certainly not virtuous. John Paul II took an institution just beginning to throw off the chains of centuries of insularity and autocracy and to be plain speaking, reshaped it into what can only be described as a totalitarian institution.

A little history may be in order. In 1958 Pope John XXIII assumed the papacy. Within months he called for an "aggiornamiento," a "bringing up to date" of the church. Church services began to be conducted in native languages. Priests and nuns and laity were given more participation and authority. "Let the layman not imagine that his pastors are always experts," the Vatican declared. "Rather, enlightened by Christian wisdom let the layman take on his own distintive role."

Pope John convened a Vatican Council that ended centuries of what he called "holy isolation" by exhorting the church to participate in humanity's struggle for peace and justice. The Vatican called this new church the "People of God."

Pope John XXIII died shortly after Vatican II. But the reforms he nurtured took root and flowered under his successor. Journalist Gwynne Dyer recently recalled his impressions after visiting Catholic churches around the world in 1978 in preparation for a televised documentary. "In southern Africa, Catholics were playing a leading role in resistance to apartheid. In Latin America, the phenomenon of 'liberation theology' was reconnecting the church with the impoverished peasant millions whom it had long ignored. In Europe and North America, the old hierarchies were all under challenge, but especially the hierarchy of gender. Justice and equality were the themes and the energy was astonishing."

"Twenty-five years later," Dyer sadly observes, "it is all gone."

John Paul II attended the Vatican Council meetings in the 1960s and opposed the changes. Upon taking office he undertook to reverse them. To achieve this goal he dramatically centralized and exercised powers. His interventions roused widespread opposition. In 1989, for example, over 300 eminent European theologians, including a number in Rome itself signed onto the Cologne Declaration, which accused the pope of "overstepping and enforcing in an inadmissible way" his proper competence in field of doctrinal teaching. It accused him of appointing bishops throughout the world "without respecting the suggestions of the local churches and neglecting their established rights." It described the Vatican's removal of qualified theologians from teaching because it didn't like what they were saying as "a dangerous intrusion into the freedom of research and teaching."

In the 1980s French theologican Marie-Dominique Chenu put it bluntly. John Paul harkens back to the "prototype of the church as an absolute monarchy."

As is usually the case with absolute monarchs, Pope John Paul II refused to listen to the people. He became even more aggressive. The Vatican announced that as of March 1, 1989 all church office holders, be they parish priests or philosophy and theology teachers in seminaries must not only give formal assent to major church dogmas but also assent to doctrine not formerly proclaimed as obligatory, such as the Church's teachings on sex.

John Paul II reasserted and even amplified the doctrine of 'Papal infallibility" and beatified its author, Pope Pius IX. When the world's Catholic bishops gathered in Rome every five years it was not to be involved in a give-and-take discussion but to receive the Word from the pope, and, notes Time, to be "quiz(zed) on instances in which they may have been deemed insufficiently aggressive in defending Church doctrine."

Time's conclusion? John Paul II "steadfastly held the line against those in the European and North American clergy and laity who saw in Vatican II an opening to democratize the Church... inside the Church his own rule will be remembered as nothing if not authoritarian."

Back in 1979 the eminent Swiss Catholic theologican Hans Kung, whose license to teach theology in Catholic institutions was revoked by the Vatican, observed that the new pope, "has waged an almost spooky battle against modern women who seek a contemporary form of life." Since then, the pope has barred even discussion of the ordination of women.

Even in his final days the pope continues to imprint his remarkably archaic values on the Church. A recent draft directive from the Vatican would bar altar girls, thereby eliminating one of the few remaining areas of participation in the Church allowed to women. Priests can only allow girls to help them at mass if they receive special dispensation from the bishop and offer "just cause." Priests, the draft advises, ought "never to feel themselves obliged to recruit girls."

The draft directive also would prohibit Roman Catholics from dancing or even clapping in their churches. It would would forbid priests from quoting ethical texts other than the Gospels in their sermons.

By all reports the pope is near death. But his impact on the Church will continue for many years. For the Pope has used his long term in office not only to change its direction but to virtually handpick those who will become the new Church leaders.

Pope John Paul has been far more active than his predecessors in stocking Church offices with his own people. In 15 years his predecessor Paul VI made only 26 new cardinals, but in 25 years Pope John Paul has made 226. He has created nearly 500 saints, more than all of the other popes of the past four centuries put together. Pope John Paul II has appointed more than 70 percent of all Catholic bishops, and all but five of the 135 cardinals who will choose his successor.

Yes indeed. His has been an "extraordinary tenure." One that will burden the Catholic Church for generations to come.

David Morris, a regular contributor to AlterNet, is the executive director of the Institute for Local Self-Reliance in Minneapolis, Minnesota.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
© 2003 Independent Media Institute. All rights reserved.

[Sherlock Holmes]

Certainly the Pope has a great deal of respect in the world. Not being Catholic, I can't speak to the authoritarian issues raised by David Morris' article.

He is, however, clearly in poor health and, therefore, unable to be a strong leader of the Church. If his health is as bad as it appears to be, I would think that much of the actual governing is being done by deputies, which may be necessary but isn't good for the health of the Church. I would say it is completely wise and reasonable to be contemplating the next Pope.

In any case, in the light of the sex scandals in the United States, the Vatican doesn't seem to have taken the scandals very seriously, or has been unable to. I would hope the next Pope would make it clear that rape or molestation of boys by Catholic priests cannot be tolerated.

[daniel4hp]

1) Do you think is premature to think of a new Pope?
In some ways, I think it is, but at the same time, you need to face the reality that it won't be that long before there will be a new pope, and it is logical to start thinking about who it will be. However, I think that right now its going to far -- the current pope is still alive, and is not on his death bed, so I would rather keep the majority of speculation off for now. A bit is okay, but I think in some ways it has gone to far.

2) Pope Nationality matters? Which nationality would you prefer the next Pope to be? Should be from dense Catholic populated regions or from parts of the world that needs a Catholic “boost” like the USA or France? Why?
I honestly don't care where the pope is from. I can see the advantages of both, but in general, I would probably favor a pope from a more strongly Catholic area. Where the pope is from, however, does not matter a whole lot to me. I care more about the person themself than where they are from.

3) Would you like the future Pope to be conservative, moderate or progressive?
I favor a conservative pope, but I also think that he needs to be reasonably open-minded. The pope needs to give a positive image of the Church, and while I think he should embrace traditional doctrines, his approach should be appropriate to the 21st century. He should be tollerent, able to interact with all people, regardless of where they are from or what they believe, and be a good example of Christian kindness, compassion, and morality. But, when it comes to doctrine, I strongly support a conservative pope.

4) Do you believe the world is a better place without the figure of the Pope? Why?
Absolutely not. While I am not Catholic, I do support the position of pope. The pope serves as a head for the Catholic church, and in a lesser way, I think he serves as a representative for the entire Christian church. Thus, the pope serves as a way to unite all believers, and is a representative for the church. I think this is very important.

5) What feelings awake in you the current Pope, John Paul II?
John Paul II is a very good pope. Like Triki said, he gives off an "aura" of peacefullnes and love, and I will be very sorrow to see him go. I disagree with the idea that the pope has been to authoritarian, and while I disagree with him on some points, I think he has bennefitted the Catholic church and served it well.

6) Anything that you would expect from the new Pope? Something that needs to be changed?
I think the new pope, like the current one, should be very active in going around the world and meeting people from many countries. As I said above, he should be tollerent, loving, and a good example of Christian behavior. I certainly hope that whoever is chosen to be the new pope will set a good example and give a positive image of the Christian church.

7) How do you think of the future of the Catholic Church without our charismatic John Paul II?
As I said, all things must come to an end, and I hope and trust that God will provide a new pope who will keep the church united. At this time, there are obviously many problems in the church, as well as divisions between more conservative and more progressive members. However, I think that the church will survive and, hopefully, will do well in the future. Right now it is impossible to know who the new pope will be, but I hope that whoever it is, he will be a good pope.

Why should celibacy among priests be optional? Men who become priests are giving themselves to God, and they are sacrificing their celibacy, and they should have an understanding of that. The only benefit to having celibacy be optional would be to fight priest shortages. But other than that, what would be so great about instituting a reform that would leave Catholics totally divided on the issue? Does anybody know when the celibacy thing came into play? Has it always been a rule?

And as far as women becoming priests...As a Catholic woman, I understand the possibilities of my involvement in the Catholic church, and I have no desire to further them by becoming a priest. I have never spoken with any woman who has voiced a desire to be a priest (not that that means that they aren't out there), but the point is that most women in the church don't want to be priests. They can be sisters, who in turn can be commissioned to run a mass in the absence of the priest, and that's okay. The only people that I have ever heard speak about how women should be priests are non-Catholics who have no basic understanding of the religion.

And as far as gays being accepted, do you want gay marriages to be recognized by the Catholic church? Accepted how? If the Catholic church recognizes homosexuals and says it is okay, isn't it pretty much contradicting the bible? And since the bible is the basis for our religion, is the Catholic church really in a place to do that?

I think part of being Catholic is realizing that there are things about Catholic doctrine that you don't believe in. I also don't like the whole birth control thing. I understand why birth control is supposed to be a bad idea, but I think that today it is a smart thing to do. I think there are things about the Catholic religion that I can make up my own mind about because it doesn't lessen my faith in Jesus Christ, and I don't need the pope to tell me that if it's wrong or right.
I just wanted to say that even though I am not Catholic, I agree with this. Well said.

[rotsiepots]

Why should celibacy among priests be optional? Men who become priests are giving themselves to God, and they are sacrificing their celibacy, and they should have an understanding of that. The only benefit to having celibacy be optional would be to fight priest shortages. But other than that, what would be so great about instituting a reform that would leave Catholics totally divided on the issue? Does anybody know when the celibacy thing came into play? Has it always been a rule? :huh:

The precise date for the introduction of clerical celibacy in the Catholic church is debateable, however, it's generally agreed upon that it was in 419 at the Council of Carthage that celibacy was affirmed as being part of becoming a Priest etc.

So, no it hasn't always been a rule. In the grand scheme of things, it's only quite a recent rule.

1) Do you think is premature to think of a new Pope?

No.

2) Pope Nationality matters? Which nationality would you prefer the next Pope to be? Should be from dense Catholic populated regions or from parts of the world that needs a Catholic “boost” like the USA or France? Why?

I think we can safely assume that the next Pope will be from Italy.

3) Would you like the future Pope to be conservative, moderate or progressive?

I'd like the Pope to be progressive, but considering the ideologies of John-Paul II and the Cardinals and other members of the church hierarchy that he's appointed, it's a pretty safe bet he'll be conservative.

4) Do you believe the world is a better place without the figure of the Pope? Why?

I'm not Catholic, so I don't really think I'm qualified to say. I do think that figureheads are important for religion.

5) What feelings awake in you the current Pope, John Paul II?

I'm quite neutral on the subject. He's done some great things, but I'm not overly fond of him, or anything.

6) Anything that you would expect from the new Pope? Something that needs to be changed?

No comment. I don't know enough Catholic dogma to comment.

7) How do you think of the future of the Catholic Church without our charismatic John Paul II?

I honestly don't know.

[hesdead-dealwithit]

I'm not Catholic, so I'll skip those that I have no opinion.

1) Do you think is premature to think of a new Pope?
Definitely not. It is always better to plan ahead than be lost when the time comes. He's going to die, probably in the next month to three years, so it would be much better to start the process.

2) Pope Nationality matters? Which nationality would you prefer the next Pope to be? Should be from dense Catholic populated regions or from parts of the world that needs a Catholic “boost” like the USA or France? Why?
I don't think it matters as much as who the Pope is. The pope, in my opinion, should be the person best suited for the job, and should not be picked by who would do the best simply by being pope (by making an American or French pope) but by who will really do the best job.

3) Would you like the future Pope to be conservative, moderate or progressive?
No opinion/not qualified to say.

4) Do you believe the world is a better place without the figure of the Pope? Why?
What do you mean? Would the world be better without this specific Pope, or without the idea of a pope at all? To the first, I'd say probably not, to the second, I don't think it would make a difference.

5) What feelings awake in you the current Pope, John Paul II?
Old. Seriously, old. Not being a Catholic, I have no religious views toward him; I'm not really old enough/don't care enough to be able to comment specifically on what he has done, so all I see is a man whose neck literally isn't strong enough to hold up his head.

6) Anything that you would expect from the new Pope? Something that needs to be changed?
Don't know.

7) How do you think of the future of the Catholic Church without our charismatic John Paul II?
It probably will be worse off. The Church is in a precarious situation in which not modernizing would destroy its significance as less and less would become Catholic but modernizing would also destroy its significance by going against the Bible (look at the Episcopalians - are they even Christian?).

[Constant Vigilance]

1) It's not premature, the Holy Father is not getting any younger. But it's not a matter for worry or fear. All popes die eventually, it's normal so the anxiousness is unwarranted. And the pope can't be afraid of death as our religion teaches us not to fear death.

2) Pope nationality does not matter. Nobody ever expected a polish pope.

3) The church needs to remain conservative. The world does not teach us how to act in our church, it's our church that gives us gidance to act in the world. Our traditions have purpose. Most people that criticese the church don't even belive in God. The church is about God's will, not about being popular with the rest of the world by answering to material interests.

4) The world needs the pope. He's God's representative on Earth. He gides us to improve the world by strenghtening and educating our faith and morals.

5) He's demostrated he is a man of conviction. In these times of spin, selffisness is promoted as acceptable. It's people like the Pope and our non catholic friends like the Dalay Lama that show us how to face up to the moral ills of our times. Real liders show what fiber they are made of. Jon Paul II has shown resilent courage in his convictions.

6) I hope the church gets more conservative. I'm afraid it has been somewat weack in defending our values. But I would not change much. Who am I to complain? The Catholic Church is the only church foundede directly by our lord Jesus Christ. If he didn't like it, he'd change it.

7) The future of the church is always something to be hopefull for. God will send us more good popes, and holy men and women. John Paul II's legacy will always live on.


I'm very dismayed so many people belive the Pope to be a tirant. That is just wrong. He cannot go against God's will and God's will is dificult to follow. God loves us with all our faults, we should really try to be more disiplined and obedient. There's plenty of stuff I don't like about the standards the Church puts upon me. but I understand I must rise to the ocation and meet those standards. People don't understand that what many call "modernizing" the church is really lowering our moral standards. An example is "liberation theology". I'm sorry to brack the bad news. Liberation theology is marxist and marxism is a sin. That simple. I know it really sounds hard, but there's no way around the fact. I Don´t want to sound dictatorial but rules exist for a reason and catholics should obey them. Even dogmas.

The Pope made a terrific job of fighting comunism in Poland and Nicaragua. He explicitily condemned liberation theology in Nicaragua. I wish he had been that firm in his visit to Chile. We catholics in Latin America have been given a large degree of self reliance and self responsibility, but we have not been up to that responsibility. We stand idle as a significant (but minoritarian) group of priests and laymen support marxism and even go as far as suporting (indirectly) politically violent groups. If the Pope was a tirant, why did he revoque his appointment in Chile of Monseñor Medina? Why did he not name him his sucesor as many expected. Because he is not a tirant. He is too easy on us.

In the US the Jesuits are under another kind of crisis. A crisis due to widespread sexual missconduct. There are now more jesuits that leave the congregation than those that stay. The sinfull behavior witnessed in the University of San Francisco, the cruel punisments inflicted on Father Josep Fessio are simtoms of what happens because of lenient papal authority. The jesuits are called to be Jesus' army on earth. This decadence should be stopped. Religion is not something you can adapt to your tastes. You have to adapt your life to the rules of your religion. And catholic faith includes obedience to the Pope. If you don't like that you probably really don't belive in our church. To have another faith is very respectfull, everybody should follow the path that leads him/her to God. But you have to follow it. Don't expect God and religion to conform to your wishes.

I hope I was not too harsh. I don't want to say that everybody needs to think like I do, but the church clearly states some things as sinfull, like marxism and catholics have to follow those rules. You don't have to be a catholic, but if you are a catholic, be a real catholic. It's not easy, it's not nice, in many cases most people will call you an idiot (I get nothing but disdain in my office for saying I belive in God). The Pope is Gods representative on Earth, he's inspired by God and we catholics must love him. We have a duty to love the Pope, he's God's gift to us.

[tizzy weasley]

I am Catholic...

1) Do you think is premature to think of a new Pope?
No I don't think so. We know the Pope is sadly dying, we should be prepared, even though it'll be a hard transition.
2) Pope Nationality matters? Which nationality would you prefer the next Pope to be? Should be from dense Catholic populated regions or from parts of the world that needs a Catholic “boost” like the USA or France? Why?

I don't think the Pope's nationality matters. What matters is his true belief in God. I wouldn't mind the Pope to be from the USA, or Italy. To me, like I said, nationality doesn't really matter.
3) Would you like the future Pope to be conservative, moderate or progressive?
Conservative
4) Do you believe the world is a better place without the figure of the Pope? Why?
No, I think the Pope has a lot of power, and is very respective. He serves as the Head of Catholics, and is sort of the head of all christians.
5) What feelings awake in you the current Pope, John Paul II?
I like Pope John Paul II. He's very conservative, and has, like triki said, and "aura". When he leaves, there'll be a great mourning.
6) Anything that you would expect from the new Pope? Something that needs to be changed?
No...not really...

7) How do you think of the future of the Catholic Church without our charismatic John Paul II?
I think the Catholic Church will be ok. Though, it could loose some people because a lot of people grew up listening to Pope John Paul II. I'm not too sure, even for a Catholic.

[remusjlupin1980]

Why the heck do you guys want the Church to remain conservative? The Church was making a lot of progress with Vatican II (without Vatican II, we would still be saying Mass in Latin, etc.). That progress was halted once Pope John Paul II came to power. If the Catholic Church does not become progressive, it will lose more and more followers.

What's the deal with the Pope telling us how to run our sex lives? That's like a vegetarian telling omnivores how to eat their meat.

[Constant Vigilance]

Why the heck do you guys want the Church to remain conservative? The Church was making a lot of progress with Vatican II (without Vatican II, we would still be saying Mass in Latin, etc.). That progress was halted once Pope John Paul II came to power. If the Catholic Church does not become progressive, it will lose more and more followers.

What's the deal with the Pope telling us how to run our sex lives? That's like a vegetarian telling omnivores how to eat their meat.

It's not that we want a certain person to tell us how to run our sex lives, what catholics want is help and gidance in our life calling of following Christ (that's what christianity is about: LIVING like Christ). It's a pretty dificult calling, especially regarding sex. Christ formed the Holy Church to give us gidance. The Holy Father (the Pope) as God's representative on earth has a mission to help us take our moral desitions.

The church does not have to become "progresive" to avoid loosing followers. First: whe know some people (probably most people) just won't belive in God. It's not a popularity contest. Second: the church should gide us, provide stability. The church does not need to be hip or popular. That does not mean that the church is isolated. It's not! Pope Jhon Paul II has done a great job atracting young people to the church. There's a very large number of youngsters in Latin America & Europe who have been moviliced by this pope and accepting and embracing his conservative moral message. That's an impressive achivement because they are young (rebelious) and a good number have a socialist education. There is no shortage of followers. I help in my parish in preparing parents that want to baptise their kids. My job is basically to tell them all the difficult stuff: about death, suffering, etc. And almost all end up very satisfied. I even have atheists that want their kids batised! Go figure. I hardly have sufficient time for this activity, people come in droves and we are not getting any more liberal. As a note, the press in Chile constantly diffamates us, calling us a bunch of retrogrades, child molesters and social exploiters. But people don't go away.

I really don't understand why people see us as a threat. I would feel threatened by people who don't want strict morals. Moral directives protect people. Why are values like chastity, monogamy, obedience seen as slavery? It's very unfair. Everybody seems to have a right to critizise me for following my religion. Why is our pope seen as a threat? This is diffamation. That's exactly what David Morris does.

[Sinistra]

1) Do you think is premature to think of a new Pope? Not at all. Historically, they made some pretty interesting choices of when to get a new pope, and occasionally they went along and did it, irregardless if the last one was still around or not.

2) Pope Nationality matters? Which nationality would you prefer the next Pope to be? Should be from dense Catholic populated regions or from parts of the world that needs a Catholic “boost” like the USA or France? Why? Ideally it would not matter, but it probably will. Hopefully they will continue to spread the offfice around, but it will probably be an Italian.

3) Would you like the future Pope to be conservative, moderate or progressive? I would like a progressive pope--IMHO the church needs to change in places, but I think we will get another conservative.

4) Do you believe the world is a better place without the figure of the Pope? Why? No. It's good to have a person who is a world leader and religiously prominent yet not commanding armies. He can influence things but in a peaceful manner.

5) What feelings awake in you the current Pope, John Paul II? He is a genuinely good person who has sacrificed his health and freedom to do his best at a very difficult job. I would not be surprised if he ends up canonized within the next 50 (or les) years. He lives his beliefs.

6) Anything that you would expect from the new Pope? Something that needs to be changed? Many things need to be changed, but I think the new pope will not make those needed changes.

7) How do you think of the future of the Catholic Church without our charismatic John Paul II? The next pope will be another person, and will make the office his own, but probably after a bit of a rocky "honeymoon" while the world adjusts to this person who is not John Paul II. It will not be easy in the beginning. This may also start the breakup of the catholic church, because John Paul II has been able to hold it together by force of his personality. Each area/nation seems to have their own ideas of how things should be done, and though "reformers" have been silenced these past decades, they will come back once John Paul II passes on. There seems to be too much diversity in national identities/ cultures and the like for all catholics to be comfortable under the exact same rules and strictures.

Just one example: even though the Church is still officially against divorce, a person can--after the fact--get an official annulment through the church and thereby remarry within the church. Or, if already remarried, have that second marriage be officially recognized and accepted, as well as any offspring from either marriage. This has happened twice among my in-laws and they do not think there is anything amiss with this. And the fees for this annulment are assessed depending upon your income. This is common in the U.S. today, and fairly widespread, yet would be considered anathema in more conservative areas of the world. It is the way the U.S. Catholic church can go with the societal flow of divorce, and keep parishioners happy, yet be able to still say divorce is a sin and not tolerated. Some feel this is a double standard, and either divorce is OK or not, no middle ground or waffling.

This is the sort of thing which needs to be addressed, or the church will break apart. Without John Paul II's charisma, where many love the singer but don't like his song, things may well split in the near future.

[dorcasderr]

1) Do you think is premature to think of a new Pope? Probably not, but more importantly it is not too soon to be PRAYING for the new Pope...Praying for the man who will assume the office, praying for the Cardinals who will make that choice, praying, above all, that God's will be done in the matter.

2) Pope Nationality matters? Which nationality would you prefer the next Pope to be? Should be from dense Catholic populated regions or from parts of the world that needs a Catholic ?boost? like the USA or France? Why? I don't feel nationality matters. God knows the heart of every man who will be considered for this position and He knows who is right for the job, no matter where he is from.

3) Would you like the future Pope to be conservative, moderate or progressive? It actually depends on what you mean by the terms. Are we talking strictly theologically...that is the basic tenets of the chuch such as WHO Jesus Christ is, or are we talking about rules and regulations that are post-Biblical, like whether the mass is said in English or whether priests can marry. if the former, I'd say conservative, but as to the rest, I guess I would have to know what was at stake and how the particular question conforms to scripture.

4) Do you believe the world is a better place without the figure of the Pope? Why? Not at all. All the Catholics need someone to administer their church and if the Pope truly keeps in close contact with the Father, who better?

5) What feelings awake in you the current Pope, John Paul II? I've always liked him, and i appreciate the fact that he is a man of conviction.

6) Anything that you would expect from the new Pope? Something that needs to be changed? I would expect Him to follow God's will as revealed to him in scripture and through prayer and to prayerfully consider all the questions and petitions brought before him.

7) How do you think of the future of the Catholic Church without our charismatic John Paul II? The Roman Catholic church, and the Protestant and Orthodox churches as well, are in God's hands. As long as the church as a whole keeps their eyes on God and obeys His word, trusts Him, then they will be fine. that is not to say that the church will never face turmoil. Hardly that, I expect that believers will face more and more turmoil as time goes on. The world in general is not becoming a holier place.

[Hawk 92]

I'm not Catholic. I'm Eastern Orthodox so I just want to answer a few questions from the Eastern POV.

On the question of celibacy. The eary church did not require priests to be celebant. As Rosie pointed out this was a later development. The Eastern Church still does not require priests to be celibate, however they must adhere to a few guidelines also:

A Married Priest can only be married once. If it ends in death, divorce, or desertion then the priest must choose between getting remarried or staying in the church.

The Priest must be married prior to his ordination to the Deaconate. After he is ordained a deacon he must either be married or choose to remain celebant.

A married Priest cannot be made a bishop of the Eastern Church. Only celibate or widowed priests may be made bishop.

So there is a historical precedent that I hope future Popes will consider. Married priest are not against the canon law of the church nor have they ever been.

4) Do you believe the world is a better place without the figure of the Pope? Why?

Despite the fact that the Eastern Church is not under, or in communion with, the Pope, I do not believe the world is a better place without the Pope. Fact of the matter is that he is still considered the Bishop of Rome to the Eastern Church, we simply have never accepted the claims of Universal Papal Authority. We have never said that the Pope is not a bishop who doesn't deserve the same respect as any other bishop. As long as there is a Church of Rome that church will require her bishop. For where the bishop is, there the church is.

Cheers!

[Wab]

While it was first hoped that the Holy Father would prove to be a force of moderation and modernisation who would complete the unfinished work of Vatican II the opposite has proved true with a deep wave of conversation sweeping through the churches hierarchy.

This can pretty much be traced back to the attempted assassination which the Pope claims he survived through direct intervention by the Virgin. His increased devotion to the BVM heightened the influence of Marianists who are by an large an extremely conservative bunch.

There has also been growing influence from Opus Dei another group that is perceived by many to be cult-like in its practices and is again very conservative.

With this in mind, and knowing that most of the cardinals appointed by this Pope are themselves conservative it seems clear that a conservative will lead the church when JPII pops his clogs.

As for married priests I think the time is coming when the church will have to bite the bullet. There are virtually no priests being ordained in the west and too few in other regions to make up the shortfall.

One sensible suggestion I heard is like some Orthodox chruches married men could become priests, but priests couldn't marry. Naturally only unmarried priests would have the time to tend to higher office, but at least parishes would be served.

[Hagrid442]

1) Do you think is premature to think of a new Pope? Not at all. John Paul II is looking more frail every week. It's not likely he'll survive much longer.

2) Pope Nationality matters? Which nationality would you prefer the next Pope to be? Should be from dense Catholic populated regions or from parts of the world that needs a Catholic “boost” like the USA or France? Why? I'd like to see an American become pope, because it has never happened that I know of. :lol: However, it doesn't matter that much. What matters is that they're qualified.

3) Would you like the future Pope to be conservative, moderate or progressive? Moderate. I believe the Church has to start looking more to the future. But at the same time, keep respect for its traditions as tantamount to a strong following. What is needed is someone that is canny, and good at compromise to pull together the different ideological elements within the Catholic Church.

4) Do you believe the world is a better place without the figure of the Pope? Why? Someone needs to lead one of the largest religions in the world, right?

5) What feelings awake in you the current Pope, John Paul II? He's flawed, to be sure. His positions on Church doctrine are too stringent for my tastes. However, there is no doubt he's a morally upright man with strong conviction. It's hard not to admire such a man, even if you disagree heavily with his positions. The Catholic Church could have done worse than JP II. (Note: I disagree with the quick canonization of Mother Theresa. Not enough evidence has been gathered to as whether she's deserving of canonization)

6) Anything that you would expect from the new Pope? Something that needs to be changed? I would prefer that he be a younger man, vibrant, and full of energy. Like above, I would like for him to be an astute administrator, able to keep the disparate factions together without a heavy hand.

7) How do you think of the future of the Catholic Church without our charismatic John Paul II? The Church is in deep trouble right now, and it might take someone extraordinary to reverse the disturbing trends. I like someone young because they need to have a long tenure.


I am not really Catholic. Never got baptised, nor followed the faith. My parents are both Catholics. I suppose that I've grown up to be agnostic, yet I still respect the Catholic faith. It probably guides my life more than I even know.

[Morgoth]

1) Do you think is premature to think of a new Pope?

No

2) Pope Nationality matters? Which nationality would you prefer the next Pope to be? Should be from dense Catholic populated regions or from parts of the world that needs a Catholic “boost” like the USA or France? Why?

Preferably from a developed country or one that values pluralism.

3) Would you like the future Pope to be conservative, moderate or progressive?

I don't honestly think it matters. The Catholic Church has never been able to get it right with it's followers, with itself or the wider world. Whatever way the new Pope leans, it will still be limited to those who have the same mentality, because ultimately you cannot influence a billion people to follow your every word. Well you could, but we called that The Dark Ages.

4) Do you believe the world is a better place without the figure of the Pope? Why?

You're asking an atheist? :p

5) What feelings awake in you the current Pope, John Paul II?

Nothing really. He's there doing his thing and I'm here doing mine. Karma!

6) Anything that you would expect from the new Pope? Something that needs to be changed?

I'd like the new Pope to reveal just what the Mother Church decided was right for inclusion in the Bible and what wasn't... Also, where did Jesus go for 13 years? I bet the vaults have a few clues.

7) How do you think of the future of the Catholic Church without our charismatic John Paul II?

Well I think it will still exist.

[Hagrid442]

I was just thinking of this one suggestion. It's actually pretty conservative. Bring Latin back to mass. Because it's a language that few understand, it increases the mystery and spirituality of the whole experience. Of course, it shouldn't be all-encompassing. Let individual parishes, or even churches decide for themselves whether they want the vernacular or Latin.

How does that sound?

[Wab]

The whole reason that the Latin mass was scrapped in favour of vernacular language is that it had become a hollow ritual with people speaking a language they didn't understand.
There is no scriptural reason for the use of Latin. It was that in Roman and post-Roman Europe it was the language of scholarship and as education was almost exclusively the domain of the pre-Reformation church a priest could preach and teach as effectively in France as in Sicily.
By the time Vatican II ditched Latin it was a relic in Europe and virtually unknown (outside the church) in other areas.

[Hagrid442]

It might not be in Scripture, but it is tradition. Sometimes tradition is adhered to much more strongly than law. Besides, I am not saying that the entire church implement this, but rather that individual parishes do. There are some people that want to bring back Latin, and this should make them happy.

[Constant Vigilance]

It might not be in Scripture, but it is tradition. Sometimes tradition is adhered to much more strongly than law. Besides, I am not saying that the entire church implement this, but rather that individual parishes do. There are some people that want to bring back Latin, and this should make them happy.

You do have a point, I've gone to mass in Latin and it's quite nice. The entire mass is not in Latin, but praying and singing is. THe priest still talks most of the time in vernacular. This is done by a traditionalist association in Chile.

Latin's clearly not in scripture. The original tradition was to use local languages (as in scripture: the holy gost descenden on the apostels as tounges of fire to teach them to speack foreign tounges. Anybody remember that? Happened after Christ's death, but don't remember the exact gospel.) The traditionalist idea was to return to the vernacular sources.

[Hagrid442]

That sounds like a perfect balance, Constant Vigilance. :)

[ariatna]

personally I think that the pope is very ill but he has the heart and the faith to continue his journey until gad says another thing.
I also think that it would not be bad if the next Pope is from Latin America we have to think that is not tha man that matters is the message that comes with him.
The future is always unknown lets just prey for great one. we have to stand together as a comunity in order to fight agains all the odds. lets just keep our faith in god.

[Midnightsfire]

Majority of Catholics Agree: Church Needs Reform (http://www.zogby.com/Soundbites/ReadClips.dbm?ID=6369)

Last week about 60 representatives from Catholic institutions, the Catholic press and secular media attended a panel discussion at the Ethics and Public Policy Center in Washington, to discuss the results of a survey conducted by Zogby International — "The Views of American Catholics and Opinion Leaders on Issues Regarding the Catholic Church."


The survey compares the views of 100 Catholic opinion leaders and 1,000 randomly chosen Catholics from across the nation. The survey asked about their thoughts on the work of U.S. bishops during and following the sex abuse scandal, what caused the scandal, how to prevent future scandals, and how the Church can regain the trust of the laity.

The opinion leaders were chosen at random from lists of college and university academics; media executives; leaders of business, legal and charitable organizations; Catholics in government agencies; and theologians.

Participating in last week’s discussion were John Zogby, president and CEO of Zogby International, considered to be one of the most accurate pollsters in the U.S.; noted theologian George Weigel, senior fellow at the Ethics and Public Policy Center; Alan Wolfe, director of the Boisi Center for Religion and American Public Life at Boston College; and Father J. Bryan Hehir, president and CEO of Catholic Charities U.S.A. and an expert on Catholic social ethics.

Zogby, the first of the panel to speak, gave an overview of the survey results. To put it bluntly, he said, "the Church has a problem."

The Catholics surveyed were split in their opinions of the performance of U.S. bishops: 49 percent saying excellent or good, 48 percent saying fair or poor.

Zogby explained that the opinion leaders and Catholics surveyed overwhelmingly agreed on their desire for a number of Church reforms. Among these reforms was the need for better communication, both between bishops and laity, and between bishops and parish priests.

Both groups felt that secrecy was at the root of the sexual abuse crisis. They agreed that the Church was primarily concerned with "preserving its image and shielding the priests and laity from scandal." They said that it is necessary for bishops to assume responsibility and that lay people should be included in the healing and solution-seeking process. The survey results were almost unanimous in the belief that "priests found guilty of sexual abuse of children should receive no special treatment and should be required to spend time in jail."

According to the survey, most also agreed that "bishops who knowingly transferred priests to other dioceses to cover up for their alleged abuses should be forced to resign."

Survey results also indicated that Catholics see many problems facing the future of the Church, including issues of the size of the Church community, the inclusion of people from different demographic groups, a shortage of priests, the aging of current clergy, and low rates of participation in the Church by young people.

Father Hehir said, "The basic problem the Church faces is a double trust, re-establishing trust internally and re-establishing credibility with the world."

Although the Church is facing many problems, Wolfe responded, "I do think there’s a positive story here."

He cited the book, Exit, Voice and Loyalty: Responses to Decline in Firms, Organizations and States by Albert O. Hirschman. The book describes different avenues taken by people who are dissatisfied with organizations: Exit — leaving the organization; voice — speaking about concerns and pushing for change; and loyalty — remaining true to the organization no matter what.

"In historical perspective," Wolfe said, "Catholics should take pride in the fact that people care enough to be disturbed; care enough, rather than exiting, to put so much energy on voice and loyalty."

"American Catholics are looking for a way not to leave their Church, but to strengthen it," he said. Wiegel spoke about ways this strengthening could occur. "Catholics know that there is a form to the Church," he said. "What needs to be explored is how there can be reform with reference to that form."

http://www.stupid-boy.com/smilies/contrib/ruinkai/sheildsmile.gif