U - Cars, pollution and the world around us

[PhoenixUK]

Apologies if this is a duplicate thread, I did search... promise! :)

Anyway, I'd like to throw this subject out to the forums.

Basically, today our transport systems are very much centred around cars, especially in the U.S. but also here in the UK. Now, cars are an essential part of our lives and a useful tool when you live in the country, and there is no way that we could ever do without them. However, when car usage is increaseing by 50% each decade, and with the prospects of tighter environmental measures and limited roadspace, it's obviousl that we're going to have to do something about the problem soon.

The problem is, that cars are incredibly polluting. This causes massive problems for human health, in particular astmathics, as well as environmental problems such as acid rain and ozone damage.

In the end, the problem can be solved in three ways. Firstly, we can eliminate the need to make the journey's by encouraging home working and online shopping. Secondly, we can encourage the use of public transport both by taxing motoring further and using this money to invest in and subsidise buses and trains. Finally, we can invest into research on making a viable alternative, such as hydrogen, electric or gas powered cars.

To make my position apparent to start with, I'm incredibly biased. I hardly ever use cars because I can cycle or catch the bus or train anywhere I need to go, and my parents are unforthcoming with lifts. To be honest, I see people who are literallly driven a 1/4 of a mile to school, and the laziness of it annoys me. When you consider that each mile driven creates 200g of carbon dioxide, and that in Britain half of all journeys are under a mile, the pollution caused is obvious.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think we should ban cars. I just think we need to seriously reconsider the way that we use them. Your thoughts, please...

[leenielou]

Well, you asked me to oppose you, but I think that you are completely right :)

I drive a car, and it is essential, as I live in the middle of nowhere. In the sticks. Under a bush. So travel by car is necessary. However, if I lived in a town, I would still use my car a lot, but not as much. Public transport is a gem, and it would mean being able to drink a lot more without having to worry about driving.

But...I do realise the impact that so many cars have on the environment. It's like smoking and other naughty things that could lead to potentially nasty things happening...you just don't register it because you don't think that it will happen to you. Similarly, I would guess that most car users don't really believe that anything hugely bad will come of their excessive driving. They are also probably depending upon the scientists to come up with some amazing discovery that will save us all and enable to carry on driving.

All three of your solutions make sense to me, but I see the most realistic one at the minute as being an alternative use of fuel. It's going to run out anyway, and so people will be researching it as we speak. To put higher taxes upon cars would provoke huge outrage. No government would do it.

[Mireille]

Cutting back on car transportation is going to be a necessity soon. Car pools are a big way to cut back on the toxins released into the air.

And I know what you mean about someone driving somewhere so close that it woudl be easier to walk. My best friend in high school drove to school every day and she lived two blocks from the school. It was reduculous. The only reaosn she drove was because she could. That's the mentality of people today. We drive because we can.

[JofpGallagher]

Phoenix,
There is another option and in fact it's a new good trend!
I'm talking about the Hybrid cars. I believe the first one was launched by Honda (The car was called Insight). Then Toyota followed, and nowaday there is a fierce competition with large amount of $$$ in research and Development from other carmakers like Ford, GM and Japanese firms.
In this link you can find the basic information as well as the current hybrid cars and future ones!

Hybrid-Cars (http://www.hybridcars.com/cars.html)

Even Ford is developing an SUV that will be hybrid.

I really hope, and I believe, that the Hybrid technology will imposed the "standard" gas-combustion cars of today.
I share with you your preocupation. It makes me sick that in some countries, every day more people prefer to buy those HUGE SUVs with an 8 cyl engine just to drive in the neighborhood, and never in tough terrains. Those trucks pollute a lot. I don't understand that mania of getting bigger and bigger cars...Some people seem to like bigger cars to feel important? bigger? self-esteem problem? stupidity?
I don't know what to think, but if I need to buy an 4 wheel-drive SUV is because I'm going to use it as it is designed....not to put my golf clubs and drive in even roads or highways...Whatever...that's my opinion.

[PrtVeela]

I agree with all of you, I walked to school until Jr. High or 5th grade. I would've walked more but being 13 and crossing a busy intersection ...well it wasn't one of my strong points at that age. I live about 2 miles from my HS, and I often walked home when it was nice out if I didn't want to catch the bus.

However, when I do drive I always try to car pool. I got to college its about 25 miles from my house, and my friends and all go to the same college, however we are unable to get rides from each other because our schedules are so different.

I also believe (in the U.S.) that President Bush's lifting some of the more stringent rules against pollution was a big mistake.

Everyone seems to be always talking about how bad the enviorment is, and yet we go on doing the same things, expecting other people to change, I am at fault for this as well. (note: I am not suggested that it is just one person but a people as a whole)

[PhoenixUK]

I think one of the major problems is that people presume that the world is theirs, when, in reality, we are merely looking after it for our children.

If, heaven forbid, I ever have kids, I'd rather not have a world where holes in the ozone means high rates of skin cancer, and where flooding is a major problem due to melting icecaps.

All of your ideas are great, though to be honest, I fail to see the benefit of hybrid cars. Although they pollute less, they still pollute a lot, and in the end we need a quite clean fuel to ensure the future of our planet.

Go figure :)

[Loz]

I happen to think that investing in research on making and improving the viable alternatives, such as the hydrogen, electric or gas powered cars is the way to go. Not just hybrid cars, either... solar powered cars and the like.

[Midnightsfire]

The air car (http://www.theaircar.com/#)

Just for a quick post...

[JofpGallagher]

I kinda support the Hybrid-car idea because it makes a transition between standard fuel oil cars to one less polluting. I think that a drastic change from the car we know today towards an electric, or air car is an utopia.

The aspect of the economy is highly important. There are big $$$ in the current industry. To drastically change from one thing to another means $$$ in lost, and I'm not talking about only car makers. The oil industry world will lose big $$$ too. A drastic change can re-shape the economy of the world so badly that it coul be catastrophic (including wars, povertry, starvation, terrorism). Solving one problem could create another one even worse. Changes need to be addressed slowly some times.
The electric cars are invented already and long time ago. They are just economically unviable. In addition, I can be almost 100% that most of the patents for discoveries in the alternative-energy solutions have been bought by big corporations that don't want them, at least not yet!

[dumbleedore]

I admit it. I am one of the ones contributing the the end of the world. I drive everywhere. I sometimes just drive around for hours on end for no reason.

But I agree that there has to be a way to power cars without the use of petrol. I think Back To The Future had the right idea. Garbage. The world has too much garbage..

*runs off to create engine that runs off rubbish*

[haycheng]

i hate to say but I think I do use car alot(only one car in the family, my mon drive me to train station for school. Dad still live in HK with great mass transportation). It is simply too far to go anywhere without a car other then the locate church. (supermarket is not far but it is quite a walk if you are carrying a lot of things).

As for car, I hate how most Amercians driving habit. Have anyone notice there are more and more SUV, H-2 on the street? These cars have such a low milage that they should be taxed heavily to make people stay away from it. Unfortunately, none is doing anything about it. Some politicans ever pround to say SUV is the Americans's way(or similiar effect).

I am going to get a car soon. I think I may give the hybid-car a try. I think at the very least, I will try to find a convensional car with good mileage.

[Mireille]

As for car, I hate how most Amercians driving habit. Have anyone notice there are more and more SUV, H-2 on the street? These cars have such a low milage that they should be taxed heavily to make people stay away from it. Unfortunately, none is doing anything about it. Some politicans ever pround to say SUV is the Americans's way(or similiar effect).

SUVs are status vehicles. They show how much money someone has. However, they are probably one of the worst vehicles on the road because they are gas guzzlers, or hard on fuel. I went to high school with a guy who had an SUV and he was always filling the tank with gas. I think it was every three or four days. That's a lot for a vehicle. And that causes some serious problems with the environment as well. The next thing I say probably belongs in the Oil thread but it has to do with cars as well. The world's supply of oil is beginning to take a hit. No one knows how much time will go by until the world's supply of oil ceases to exhist, but it will be soon.


I kinda support the Hybrid-car idea because it makes a transition between standard fuel oil cars to one less polluting. I think that a drastic change from the car we know today towards an electric, or air car is an utopia.

Hybrid-cars are a wonderful break through in a way to help the environment. If everyone had and or used a hybrid our world would be very different and better to live in. I would use on myself. But most people are skeptical of anything new and would rather use what they have grown up with. We are creatures of habit and what we are familiar with. I do wish more people would take them into consideration though.

[JofpGallagher]

The next thing I say probably belongs in the Oil thread but it has to do with cars as well. The world's supply of oil is beginning to take a hit. No one knows how much time will go by until the world's supply of oil ceases to exhist, but it will be soon.

Well Penny. About the end of the petroleum, I assure you that neither you nor I are going to see it. My home country, Venezuela, is a big petroleum exporter country. Well known oil reserves solely in Venezuela can assure petroleum for more than 100 years!...Saud Arab, Iraq and some other countries of the region have the biggest oil-reserves in the world. USA itself has been buying so much petroleum from other countries to avoid to use its own.
There will be enough oil for our lives, and the lives of your children.

[Midnightsfire]

Oil supply (http://www.iea.org/g8/world/oilsup.htm)

Experts to Assess World Oil Supply Limits (http://www.solarquest.com/news/article.asp?id=4157)

[Animagi rock!]

Well Penny. About the end of the petroleum, I assure you that neither you nor I are going to see it. My home country, Venezuela, is a big petroleum exporter country. Well known oil reserves solely in Venezuela can assure petroleum for more than 100 years!...Saud Arab, Iraq and some other countries of the region have the biggest oil-reserves in the world. USA itself has been buying so much petroleum from other countries to avoid to use its own.
There will be enough oil for our lives, and the lives of your children.

The problem's not that there won't be any oil left. I agree with you that that's not going to happen anytime soon. But seeing that the demand for oil is rising much faster than new reserves are found, oil will probably become increasingly expensive. To quote from Midnightfire's second link: "The world now uses more than three times the amount of oil it finds in a year." Rising oil prices could have a major negative effect on economy if we remain as dependant on it as we are now.

I don't think we have to wait until oil runs out before we switch to alternative fuels. I'm confident that new technologies will make them less expensive soon and as soon as they're cheaper than oil, I rely on a common human trait (greed) to get us to change our ways.

Until then I'm very much for encouraging the use of public transport, though I think it wouldn't be fair to all the people who don't live in cities to do this by taxing all cars. I would agree with taxing SUV's and other cars that use a lot of fuel unless the person using it can prove that they really need it.

I'm fortunate enough to live in an area with very good public transport, so I rarely need to use a car except to go shopping, and I like to walk places, especially if the weather's good. I need the exercise, seeing as I sit most of the day.

[Masterfroggy]

Hybrid-cars are a wonderful break through in a way to help the environment. If everyone had and or used a hybrid our world would be very different and better to live in. I would use on myself. But most people are skeptical of anything new and would rather use what they have grown up with. We are creatures of habit and what we are familiar with. I do wish more people would take them into consideration though
****

It's not just the Petrol (gas) that pollutes, extracting the metal ore from the ground or processing the crude oil to make plastic, mining the heavy metals to make the energy efficient motors that run of off electricity, that is generated by gas, oil, and nuclear power stations,

In England a few years ago the Government made us all switch from 4 star petrol to the new unleaded petrol, a year later it was suddenly uncovered that unleaded processing was 4 times as polluting to the environment as four star, If more people were to shop locally and use home produced or locally farmed goods from local sources, never mind the hyper-market, shop at your local farm market, cut down on heavy road use support your community, by staying in you community, pay a few dollars more for real food, fly less, drive less, write more letters on paper that is recycled, don't eat meat unless you know where it comes from, factory farmed animals are treated with more drugs than humans the list is almost endless, I think it comes down to learning more about the world we live in.

I don't know if it is still true, but a few years ago when I last visited the US I was shocked to find the cost of real food was very high compared to eating out, a group of friends and I went to a really nice family run dinner next to a bowling alley in Santa Monica CA each person spent about $6 including a beer on a soup and steak meal, not a lot really the exchange rate was about $1.55 to the english Pound, but I horrified to find in a local grocery store the makings of a sandwich for the four of us (bread, butter, meat, salad,) came to about $10, my point, well the steak came from Argentina and the beer from Germany, even the clams in my chowder were imported, yet the USA makes and grows all the food needed, the owner (who we all became really friendly with) told me that if he used American food it would put another $1.50 on the price, and no local would pay that sort of price.

The local gas station was already drawing people away as they were offering a 64oz drink, burger, and fries for a dollar when you filled up your car. the enviromental cost of shipping the home produced foods out of the USA, and importing, the same food type back into the USA double the damage to the environment, but if americans were willing to pay a few cents more on american food produced with in the state boundaries, I am not having a go at the USA, the British are as bad, we import thousands of tonnes of cheese, beef and lamb from New Zealand, hundreds of thousands of tonnes of grain from all over the world, to make bread, cakes and the like just because, english grain contains more bran, this colours the loaf even after the flour is bleached, and the consumer like the bread to be pearly white. We as consumers are not willing to spend a few pence more on the cost of home grown food.
Ban gas guzzlers if you like, they are after all a drain on the fuel stocks which are limited, but they are only a tiny part of the world problem.

Masterfroggy climbs on to his high horse and rides into the smoggy sunset.

[NYCwitch920]

I think most of us are guilty of using cars. Almost all of us! I don't think we can exactly fix this problem (unless your area has a subway system, you have a bike, or can walk). There are so many ways to avoid cars but some people choose not to take the "long way" to certain areas. Of course, it should also be taken into consideration that cars aren't the only thing that contribute to pollution. I think factories pose a serious problem. Living in New York City, I've always wondered why we needed those factories that billowed smoke everywhere. There are only a few in the city but they're more apparent in states like New Jersey.

[thesnitch_and_you]

I have to drop my 2 cents in on this because I too find that the vehicle situation is becomming a crisis. I grew up in Chicago, Illinois, and it can take 2 hours to go 15 miles. It is sickning. And does a family of three or four in the middle of a HUGE urban area really need a vehicle that can seat 8, drive up a cliff, or through a swamp? Most of the suv owners I know will not even get their car dirty, yet there they are getting 10 miles to the gallon so they can look cool. I hate it when you cant walk along the sidewalk near a road and you cant breathe. During the summer, the haze is so discusting that you cannot see the tops of any of the skyscrapers. Also, on the subject of oil amounts.... I am sure that there might be enough oil for several generations, but my concern would be what natural areas get destroyed when the oil is extracted.

[Hagrid442]

Being a fellow Chicagoan (well, suburbs), I can attest to how congested it is in this area. In fact, there was a study that came out not long ago and Chicago was fourth I believe in the country for the most traffic. Oh yes, I drive just about every day. It's because I have to. Most of the United States does not have public transportation. I think much of it because of the sheer size of the country. Because of all our wide, open space, the car has become a major part of our culture. I don't see anything wrong with this, per se`, though we do tend towards excess. Excess in the form of SUV's nowadays. There are very few people with those vehicles that actually have a good reason for them. Perhaps if you live up in the mountains, there is more need/use of them. But, yeah, for the most part, they are wasteful.

One thing I need to say is that I have a fondness for fast cars with huge V-8 engines. Hey, everyone needs their weaknesses. :rasp: :rotfl:

[thesnitch_and_you]

We are in love with our cars..... period. We do need them, like a necesssary evil. the main research then should be on improving the vehicles themselves, as opposed to just claiming cars are evil -- use public transport. If my sister who works at U of Illinois at chicago drives, its 11 miles and about 45 minutes to an hour from home. if she took trains and busses, it is 2 hours, because she would have to go way into the loop (downtown for all you non chicago people) switch lines, and come back out again. It would be stupid. In order to save time, she must add to the smog. Sad really.

[complicated]

Like last few weeks ago i had a debate called "that cars SHOULD be banned from all city centres" and my team was the Afferminate(sp?) team, which we will have to agree with the topic. And i thought that i should share my rebutals with you guys that how we can not use cars that much even i love cars.

-you can call 000/911/... and get ambulance etc if you are hurt in the city and can get to the hospital faster because there is not as much cars in the city anymore. but if you are sick you could drive to the near suburbs to get to the doctors instead of the city because you can drive in the suburbs and all but not city centres
-they debated that the price for publick transport is increasing and add up it is a lot. i debated that cars cost a lot and petrol prices are increasing too and it is actually a lot more expensive than cars.And paying for public transport are putting money back to society for the government to improve things
-they debated public transport is currently poor. I debated Improving it at the moment. so it will get better; you can't judge quality of PT, if there is no cars on how it is now because only enough money is put in for the number of peoples who use it.

I know this is not debating but i'm just sharing the points i have debated and might help this topic. sorry for the debating-ish

[PhoenixUK]

Interestingly, Complicated, London has done something similar: they haven't banned cars from the city centre but make them pay £5 (around $7.50) to drive into the 'Congestion Charge Zone'. This means that there's less pollution and less traffic in the city centre. They also make the charge free if you have an LPG (runs on gas) car, to encourage people to use renewable resources.

This encourages a shift towards public transport, which is good.

[complicated]

that's cool. i think like all the big cities should do that, because of the pollution people get Asthma and all. In the city of hong kong they have really bad pollution and you look up the sky sometimes and you see smogs and sometimes it ruins the view but yet it's such a great city!!

[PhoenixUK]

Hong Kong's a country, Complicated ;)

[skorpionflicka]

i agree with you all...
but the thing that makes me really mad is the following: i was watching this program on tv and it said that one of the most incredible invents in the history of men or whatever is this huge gross killing machine. a tank, i dont know if thats its name...the thing is that the thing could actually think for itself and kill people in war in all the ways imaginable..and stupid things like that...anyway, thats not the point. The point is that: why do people use their inteligence (sp) to kill eachother? why dont they use their brains for something good? something that would make the world a better place? ..or a good place to live in ..not worrying about skin cancer or what do i know..lung problems because of the polution. Its sad how this beautiful place has been damaged ... i am not even sure now if i want to have children and risk them to live in a place like this other guy or girl said: with acid rain, the poles melting, cancer..etc etc...
we just have to try and make a change in OUR lives and in the ones of other intelligent people that care for nature and respect the world that God gave us, and ofcourse our future.

[haycheng]

Hong Kong's a country, Complicated ;)Ugh...Hong Kong is not a country. It is a special regional(mean different laws) under the republic of china. Also Hong Kong's pollution is indeed very bad, ever with very good public transport. There is really no need for cars in HK. However, people still buy cars and there are a lot of trucks(as expected as HK is still a export, import outlet). Most of the pollution are from Mainland china though.

[Midnightsfire]

*grins* I believe that PhoenixUk was just playing around. (That winkie smilie...)

dieoff.org (http://dieoff.org/) has some interesting links.

[Muggle]

Apologies if this is a duplicate thread, I did search... promise! :)

Anyway, I'd like to throw this subject out to the forums.

Basically, today our transport systems are very much centred around cars, especially in the U.S. but also here in the UK. Now, cars are an essential part of our lives and a useful tool when you live in the country, and there is no way that we could ever do without them. However, when car usage is increaseing by 50% each decade, and with the prospects of tighter environmental measures and limited roadspace, it's obviousl that we're going to have to do something about the problem soon.

The problem is, that cars are incredibly polluting. This causes massive problems for human health, in particular astmathics, as well as environmental problems such as acid rain and ozone damage.

In the end, the problem can be solved in three ways. Firstly, we can eliminate the need to make the journey's by encouraging home working and online shopping. Secondly, we can encourage the use of public transport both by taxing motoring further and using this money to invest in and subsidise buses and trains. Finally, we can invest into research on making a viable alternative, such as hydrogen, electric or gas powered cars.

To make my position apparent to start with, I'm incredibly biased. I hardly ever use cars because I can cycle or catch the bus or train anywhere I need to go, and my parents are unforthcoming with lifts. To be honest, I see people who are literallly driven a 1/4 of a mile to school, and the laziness of it annoys me. When you consider that each mile driven creates 200g of carbon dioxide, and that in Britain half of all journeys are under a mile, the pollution caused is obvious.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think we should ban cars. I just think we need to seriously reconsider the way that we use them. Your thoughts, please...

I agree with basically everything you said. Great thread.

[dumbleedore]

Interestingly, Complicated, London has done something similar: they haven't banned cars from the city centre but make them pay £5 (around $7.50) to drive into the 'Congestion Charge Zone'. This means that there's less pollution and less traffic in the city centre. They also make the charge free if you have an LPG (runs on gas) car, to encourage people to use renewable resources.

This encourages a shift towards public transport, which is good.
Apparently Sydney is looking at bringing this sort of thing in- I reckon we need it down town here some days ;)

On the topic of the Hybrid cars, I've actually seen two or three driving around here lately- which is a surprise. Because we're a rural city, we get a combination of cars- it goes from the diesel farm ute right up to the BMW's owned by *cough*my neighbours*cough*- but we're also a city that is terrified of change- you wouldn't believe the fuss kicked up when they wanted to extend the cinema. So seeing Hybrid cars accepted easily is great- they've actually done features on them in the local paper.

If I had the money I would buy one.

[Kirsten]

I live in the centre of Edinburgh, with good public transport, local shops and a 20 minute work from work. I don't have a car. Sometimes it would be handy, if I want to go to Ikea, but there is a city car club, and I can hire one if need be. I recently changed to buying my fruit and veg from the local organic farm shop, which grows its own, or sources it from as close to home as possible.

If it was up to me, road tax would be abolished and the tax on petrol would be tripled. This would mean that people who drive the most pay the most, and people who have inefficient, petrol guzzling cars would pay more.

I would encourage investment in integrated public transport, with tax breaks for companies who could show that they were making their public transport as green as possible, as wide-reaching as possible, into rural and other badly served areas, and for making it as integrated as possible - timing buses and trains closely together so you don't get off one and wait 6 hours for the connection.

As far as I am aware, there's a difference in the East and West coasts of the USA. The East was settled first, on a European model, with narrow streets, tall buildings and not much road space, so less space for cars and shorter distances between things. The West was settled later and more slowly, with lots of time to plan and expand, hence things further apart, more roads, more of a car culture. But the US uses far more that its fair share of the world's resources, and there does seem to be much more of a reliance on cars, a reluctance to walk, and an attitude of petrol is cheap so use it. How much is petrol in the UK now? The US pays less than any other developed nation.

[Romy]

It all comes down to a certain tradition, really. If you´re only used to using a car to get anywhere you´re likely to do so. If there´s no public transportation available, you´ll also use a car. If people like to go by car and defend the "individuality" it gives them there´s no need to improve the public transportation system as people wouldn´t want to use it. It´s a vicious circle. I, myself, have no car and I probably won´t have one for while. I live in a town with 200.000 inhabitants and more than 600.000 bicycles. It´s the Netherlands influence we get here, I believe. :p

[Kimmetje]

I am now in Holland and everyone does thinks with bikes, we go to school with one and we go everywhere with it, but that has reasons.

a. gas is expensive
b. everything is overcrowded and with a bike you just go past it all
c. in the city it's hard to not walk or ride a bicycle

When I was in the USA I like went to school witht he bus and in Holland I ride my bike happily (not always) every day. It is also that in Holland most families have two (or four like my rude neighbours) cars as that is good as father goes to work and mother does the groceries with the other.

[Tane]

I don't disagree with alternative transport it is needed but the problem is that the buses are ever 1 hour to my nearest city and the trains are exactly the same and that is if they come because after a certain time it there is no train and no bus which means a taxi at around £45 if I wish to go out for a night on the town, great transport ;). I have a 30 minute walking journey just to get to the train and bus because there is no real local transport to so night working gets complicated without a motorcycle not that I have one yet.

I think the pollution levels will only increase if things do not change in the UK and Labour believe tolling the road net works will help but to me if people want to use there cars then they will and just us routes that are not tolled.

[Romy]

I don't disagree with alternative transport it is needed but the problem is that the buses are ever 1 hour to my nearest city and the trains are exactly the same and that is if they come because after a certain time it there is no train and no bus which means a taxi at around £45 if I wish to go out for a night on the town, great transport ;). I have a 30 minute walking journey just to get to the train and bus because there is no real local transport to so night working gets complicated without a motorcycle not that I have one yet.

I think the pollution levels will only increase if things do not change in the UK and Labour believe tolling the road net works will help but to me if people want to use there cars then they will and just us routes that are not tolled.
That´s what I meant by vicious cycle. People who have no public transporation available buy cars and get used to them. As they then don´t need to rely on busses and trains, the companies owning those refuse to put in money to extent their lines as they say they already have few customers, not much money and what would be the use to extend their lines to places where only few people would use their busses and give them only little profit? So the people living further outside town naturally keep using their cars. It´s the same with prices. Train and bus tickets are much more expensive than using a car. The companies claim the prices must be so hight due to few customers and they, of course, must make their profits somehow. But as long as the prices are high they won´t gain customers. Vicious cycle. Perhaps a better government funding could help solve the problem.

[Tane]

That´s what I meant by vicious cycle. People who have no public transporation available buy cars and get used to them. As they then don´t need to rely on busses and trains, the companies owning those refuse to put in money to extent their lines as they say they already have few customers, not much money and what would be the use to extend their lines to places where only few people would use their busses and give them only little profit? So the people living further outside town naturally keep using their cars. It´s the same with prices. Train and bus tickets are much more expensive than using a car. The companies claim the prices must be so hight due to few customers and they, of course, must make their profits somehow. But as long as the prices are high they won´t gain customers. Vicious cycle. Perhaps a better government funding could help solve the problem.Yes I know it is a vicious circle because government needs to get the transport system available to everyone at all time of the day and night as people who don't have trains or buses after a certain time need the car or motorcycle to get to work. A person can not just give up there job or stop going to work while they wait for the transport system to be built, they need to earn to pay the bills, so you’re right when it is a vicious circle.

[Amina]

i made a concious desicion about six months ago to only use my car if it was on a journey that would take me conceivably longer than 30 mins or so to cycle. since i learnt to drive, i have used my car all the time, often for trips that were no longer than a couple of miles/five mins in the car, and i decided that not only was this a huge waste of my money on petrol, but also wasn't a good impact on the environment. now, i cycle almost everywhere, and it saves me in excess of about £30 a month, plus keeps me a lot fitter.

the cycling environment in london is certainly improving, with a lot more cycle routes being painted out, and also the issue to cyclist of maps if they request them, for free. the maps are excellent and show cycle routes, as well as cycle-friendly routes. the trains are also becoming more accomodating to cyclists for those slightly less-easy-to cycle journeys.

if you live in london, see the transport for london website for more details:

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/streets/cycling/cycling-intro.shtml

[Romy]

Yes I know it is a vicious cicle
Did I say cycle? I meant circle, of course. All this talk about bicycles.... :rotfl:
the cycling environment in london is certainly improving, with a lot more cycle routes being painted out, and also the issue to cyclist of maps if they request them, for free. the maps are excellent and show cycle routes, as well as cycle-friendly routes. the trains are also becoming more accomodating to cyclists for those slightly less-easy-to cycle journeys.
Is it common in London to use a bike for transportation? You have such a well developed underground system, I thought it would suffice. I remember seeing pictures of people in London riding bicycles and they were wearing something in front of their mouth so they wouldn´t breath in all the smog. Looked rather unhealthy. But perhaps the situation has improved since they came up with a fee for people using their cars in inner London.

[~Tonks~]

You know... I dunno if this is off topic or what, but here goes.

My mom brought up a really good point the other day that I had never thought of before.

Here in the United States, race car driving, especially NASCAR, has become quite a popular recreational event. Whether it be attending the race or driving in it yourself. I have no idea if this is as big of a phenomenon in other countries.

Does anyone other than me think this is really stupid? (Not to offend any NASCAR fans out there.) There's all this talk about conserving our natural resources, not wasting gas, how we need to find another source of energy (which I support wholeheartedly) reducing air pollution, auto emissions... and yet nobody blinks an eye at race car driving.

I mean come on, it's zooming around a track as fast as you can, hopefully faster than the other guy, without crashing and killing yourself by turning your car into a fireball. What talent does this honestly require? Never mind talent or entertainment value. How much fuel is wasted every year because of race car driving? What is the air pollution like over the major areas that sponsor it, in comparison to other areas that don't, and in comparison to earlier years before it was as prevalent? Not to mention that health concerns are becoming a major issue in the United States, but hey, don't worry about sitting out in the boiling hot sun for hours at a time breathing in the noxious fumes of dozens of race car engines!

Maybe I have no idea what I'm talking about and I'm just talking out my bum, but I find it pretty hypocritical that we're told to conserve gas, and car pool, and use more environmentally friendly methods of transportation, and hybrid cars (all of which I'm for) but then so many people will mindlessly flock to these things. I'm not saying it should be made illegal, that too seems ridiculous, but it's something that really just zinged me the other day.

[Spirit]

What I don't understand is why don't we just change the cars? You know, make them electrical. Then they wouldn't run on gas, therefore they wouldn't pollute the air with it. Wouldn't that just be easier?

[Romy]

What I don't understand is why don't we just change the cars? You know, make them electrical. Then they wouldn't run on gas, therefore they wouldn't pollute the air with it. Wouldn't that just be easier?Of course. You could use fuel that is more evironmental-friendly and possibly cheaper as well. But oil companies have a lot of power. Apart from the fact that electric cars would be slower, I think, and some people might object to that. Plus, they all would need to buy new cars or at least engines. It would be difficult to put to practise. But it´s a worthy goal in the long run.

[Amina]

Did I say cycle? I meant circle, of course. All this talk about bicycles.... :rotfl:

Is it common in London to use a bike for transportation? You have such a well developed underground system, I thought it would suffice. I remember seeing pictures of people in London riding bicycles and they were wearing something in front of their mouth so they wouldn´t breath in all the smog. Looked rather unhealthy. But perhaps the situation has improved since they came up with a fee for people using their cars in inner London.

it's not overly common, but you see cyclists a lot more than you used to. the new mayoral gov't seems to be a bit more pro-bike, and there are several groups that have received extra funding...london cycle network, for example, who work to provide signed routes and painted cycle lanes on london's roads.

as for our tube system...it's fine, when it works. but a lot of the time, it is stuffy, over-crowded, dirty and in huge need of funding. there are some statistics somewhere that say something like 80% of all journeys made by londoners are less than two miles. when a single ticket on the tube in zone one (centre of london) costs £1.80, and a bus ticket costs £1, you cna save a lot more money, and often time, because the tubes are often late, delayed etc, and the traffic for the buses sucks, by going by bike.

so ig uess the consensus is...not great, but improving. we have a long way to go before we catch up holland!

[puer]

what about hybrids verses regular cars. I ask you to give your oppion.