CoSForums Archive - Layers in Harry Potter

Masterfroggy

January 6th, 2004, 6:50 pm

Why does it have to be someone Lily's age. We don't know anything about Petunia and Lily's mother. In fact, it seems we know very darned little about Petunia. Just what and who does she know?

And we don't know where Petunia was when she overheard this information or even when it happened. All we have to go on is Harry's assumption that she means his parents.

In book One When talking about Lily Petunia call Harry Potters father, Potter
As in
"Then she met that Potter (boy) at school and they left and got married and had you" it comes out as a string of event one after another, as if it all happened very fast,

But when Petunia is talking in Book Five she does not use anyone’s name, she refers to that awful boy telling her. There is no doubt in my mind that the Her is Lily, but from the way it is written, to me it seems as if who every that awful boy is he visited the Evens house before Lily met that Potter (boy) at school and they left and got married

there was a thread dedicated to this very question

http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=21104
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whizbang121

January 6th, 2004, 11:10 pm

sindatur

January 6th, 2004, 11:24 pm

Sabine

January 7th, 2004, 12:16 am

There's just so little to work with. That awful boy told her about Dementors and that they were guards at Azkaban prison. Not enough information, especially considering that we are completely in the dark about just what exactly Petunia does know and when she knew it.

Another thing that one should, in my opinion, attend to. is the mood Petunia is in when saying this. Harry dragged Dudley in, dudley was all pale and shaky and vomitting and Petunia learned that he was threatened by some meanies connected to the wizarding world .... I do think that that is reflected too in the "awful boy".

Why do we have confusion about the howler and the "my last"? Dumbledore sent it and admitted it to Harry or did I miss something?

And I too do believe that the source for Petunia's attitude towards magic is pure jealousy.

Sabine

Angora

January 7th, 2004, 3:55 am

I've only read a very limited amount of Neitzche, but from what I have read I would be inclined to go along with Dedalus Diggle and say that Dumbledore would be more of the superman than Voldemort would. At least, that's what I think...

My impression is that "SHE" is Lilly. Can't prove it. I just can't imagine that it would be anyone else, if for no other reason than it seems like a weird time to refer to a "she" we haven't ever heard of in the books before, and since there are precious few "she"s, I'd say Lilly is the most likely one in this case.

Now, as for the aweful boy being Snape... hee. Soul-sucking seems like a conversation topic he would pick, doesn't it? Since I don't really agree with the father-in-azkaban or the they-were-friends theories, I don't really know what he would be doing talking to Lilly somewhere that Petunia could hear them. Not to offend any boys here, but I also don't see why James, age 17 (7th year, right?) couldn't be called a "boy". Now, I don't think that it is James, because... well, when you go out of your way to make the wording ambiguous like that it's usually for a reason (on JKR's part, not Petunia's).

What still gets me in that scene is Vernon and the "peck of owls... I meant pack!" It bugs me that he would say the wrong word (and that the "wrong" word would be a more correct word).

whizbang121

January 7th, 2004, 7:25 am

I'm so far behind. But the banana bread was worth it.

(not that it wouldn't be useful to have Kreacher out of the way, but it would be better for everyone if the elf could just choke to death on fish bone).
(scribble, scribble) Fish bone. :elaugh: I love it.

Right, lacking another monkeywrench to conclusively disprove this, I'm going to argue that Dumbledore and Riddle are both human, and there is no non-corporeal dark lord. Throughout OotP Dumbledore makes a mistake in his treatment of Harry. His reasons for this are very human in nature: he's trying to keep Harry safe for longer than is really practical. The interview at the end of OotP gives me the impression that Dumbledore is in someways admitting his mistakes and failings and finally bringing home to Harry that he is only human, and can't do everything, and can't protect Harry from his fate. I think the line "suffering like this proves you are still a man!" is important. It shows that Dumbledore believes being human can be an asset, not a weakness. Or as well as a weakness. He almost contradicts himself when he first says "I acted exactly as Voldemort expects we fools who love to act" and then to Harry "it was your heart that saved you". Again, I'm not proving anything, but the overall feeling I got from that conversation, if such a dry word can be used to describe it, was that it was being held by two people who were very much human.
Well said! But, even if they are both entirely human, Dumbledore and Harry are still seperated from the average wizard in the street by their scars, their unusual magical power (is it the stuff in the locked room?), and their apparent fates to take on the Dark Lords of their age.
Where Riddle is concerned, it seems to me that we can almost trace his transformations from a deprived orphaned boy to a depraved dark lord. Should go into more detail, I know, but I'm running out of time. Nevertheless, I find the whole story more effective if Voldemort started out just like you or I. It does seem reasonable that if Harry is completely human, so is Voldemort. But they are set apart if nothing else, by the prophesy.

Unfortunately, my mock exams start the day after tommorrow and I really can't justify spending time here
I hope the discussion goes well in my absence (although don't forget that the more you write while I'm away the longer my catch up post will be when I get back)
See you sometime around the 21st Jan! Yipes! We'll miss you, too. See you on my birthday. ;)

hmmmmmmmm I'm not quiete sure ... maybe FlyingPhoenix can help me out with this. I look for a translation for the word "lebensbejahend" which is translated in the dictionary as "positive" and seems to me not quite satisfying ....

It is an attitude one has towards life. Towards everything that happens in life. Its sort of not to grumble about every little piece of life that seems to be inconvinient, like complaining permanently on the weather, or how bad everyone is, or how bad life in general is.

SabineSabine, is the word you are looking for "optimistic?" Always looking on the bright side? Pollyanna?

phoenixsong

January 7th, 2004, 3:08 pm

Why do we have confusion about the howler and the "my last"? Dumbledore sent it and admitted it to Harry or did I miss something?
Well, in my opinion, although Dumbledore definitely sent the Howler, that doesn't mean that it spoke in his voice (which Harry didn't recognize as Dumbledore's when the Howler "went off") or that it referred to his last. I think it possible that he projected someone else's voice, and referred to some other "last", not simply his own last communication with Petunia (in the letter left on the doorstep with Harry, presumably).

Here are the two relevant quotes regarding the Howler:
An awful voice filled the kitchen, echoing in the confined space, issuing from the burning letter on the table.

"REMEMBER MY LAST, PETUNIA."
"You sent that Howler. You told her to remember - it was your voice - "

"I thought," said Dumbledore, inclining his head slightly, "that she might need reminding of the pact she had sealed by taking you...."
But it is certainly true that Dumbledore sent the thing.

I guess that I am expecting to hear more about the Evanses and the senior Potters, and think that Petunia's knowledge of the wizarding world is more than that of a tagalong, but of someone who was actively seeking out information. But, of course, there is no evidence to prove this!

purplehawk

January 7th, 2004, 3:16 pm

The only thing is, Phoenix, Harry later says "it was your voice - " when he and Dumbledore discussed it in The Last Prophecy chapter. I'm assuming from that by then, whatever Dumbledore did to magnify or intensify his voice, Harry realized it was the voice of his mentor.

whizbang121

January 7th, 2004, 3:27 pm

Seems to be the case.

But, was the "last" really the note he left with Harry, or had there been other communications since? Just who is Petunia Dursley and what does she know?

Dedalus Diggle

January 7th, 2004, 3:34 pm

Seems to be the case.

But, was the "last" really the note he left with Harry, or had there been other communications since? Just who is Petunia Dursley and what does she know?

I know - Petunia Dursley is really Regulus Black, unreformed Death Eater, prevented by charms from actually harming or turning Harry over, but providing information to LV the way Kreacher did - that'll be a nasty shock for Vernon. Well, considering Petunia's personality, he might consider it an improvement.

purplehawk

January 7th, 2004, 3:49 pm

Oh, good one, Diggle! :lol:

You know, though, Petunia and Vernon strike me as particularly (or peculiarly) well-suited to one another. Maybe I should qualify that and say they're well-suited on the surface... I've come to believe Petunia deserves an Academy Award for Best Actress of the Past Two Decades. She's clearly doing what she has to do to survive in the narrow little niche she's carved out for herself, Vernon, and Dudley - but there's far more there than we've yet been privy to.

sindatur

January 7th, 2004, 4:06 pm

LOL Dedalus, reminds me of some fun Sabine and I were having yesterday PMing about time travel, replacing people and body switching, it was a riot.

Regarding the "Remember my Last", I remember when I read that, I was fretting through the whole book trying to figure out who could have sent it. I actually felt a little gypped that it was Dumbledore that sent it. It seems if it was Dumbledore who sent it, Dumbledore's voice, and Dumbledore's last, that the line should have said something like "An oddly familiar voice" or something. I find it difficult to believe that Harry would not have recognized Dumbledore's voice. So, either I got gypped, or it wasn't Dumbledore's voice, and let's face it, JKR was careful not to answer Harry's question about it being Dumbledore's voice.

Angora

January 7th, 2004, 8:11 pm

Harry needs to be more agressive with his questions.

Are howlers just loud, or do they scream at you? Because if it was Dumbledore's voice screaming, and screaming isn't something Dumbledore does, it might have sounded foreign enough that Harry wouldn't have recognized it.

whizbang121

January 7th, 2004, 8:32 pm

Interesting point. But Mrs Weasley was recognisable, wasn't she?

sindatur

January 7th, 2004, 8:40 pm

Interesting point. But Mrs Weasley was recognisable, wasn't she?

Hi Whiz, I actually typed up basically the same reply, and then I started thinking, that I don't think there's anyway to disguise her voice, LOL. Plus which, she often speaks a bit louder and more boistrously (sp?) than the average person. Dumbledore, is always soft spoken, but I still think after Harry having known Dumbledore for 4 full school years, that, even a more boistrous, and louder version of his voice, should be recognizable to Harry.

So, I still think if it was Dumbledore's voice Harry should've recognized it, but, I don't think we can point at Molly's Howler to justify that hypothesis.

Angora

January 7th, 2004, 9:03 pm

Yeah, exactly. Mrs. Weasley screams at people all the time. But I can't even imagine myself what it would sound like if Dumbledore screamed something at you - not just said it in a loud, full voice, but hauled off and screamed it.

I think it might be similar in a way to when Harry caught a glimpse of DD in the foe glass and from his expression, suddenly understood why somebody would be afraid of him.

Now, I don't know how howlers work. I feel pretty sure that if it was DD who composed and sent the howler, he made it a howler so that Petunia would have no choice but to listen to it (because if you don't open them, they go off on their own). So, if either you have to scream at a howler to make it work, or if the howler screams on it's own using your voice (as opposed to just magnifying the volume of your voice while you speak in a normal way) it might have been strange enough that Harry didn't recognize it, and certainly that he wouldn't ever think of it as a sound Dumbledore would make.

Vigilance

January 7th, 2004, 10:41 pm

I can't distinguish my Dad's voice from that of any other deep-voiced man when he's yelling. I've actually looked around for him when I hear some men raise their voices. My father doesn't raise his voice often, and I'm always surprised when he does. Likewise, when I hear a voice raised with the same unused-to-being-raised quality, I'm always surprised it's not my father. So...maybe Harry would recognize DD even if his voice is raised, but I think it's more convincing that Harry'd think it was so horrible that it couldn't possibly come from someone as gentle-spoken as DD.

whizbang121

January 7th, 2004, 11:52 pm

Does anyone remember when Dumbledore bellowed once. I think it might have been when Quirrel announced there was a troll in the school.

purplehawk

January 8th, 2004, 12:03 am

That only happened in the movie, though. In the book "it took several purple firecrackers exploding from the end of Professor Dumbledore's wand to bring silence."

It does say he rumbled, however, when he did speak.

whizbang121

January 8th, 2004, 12:17 am

Hmmm ..... dang.

I thought I remembered a situation when he roared, or something. In the MoM perhaps?

barmy codger

January 8th, 2004, 12:27 am

Dumbledore bellowed "Stay where you are, Harry!" in Ministry of Magic when Voldemort suddenly disappeared, end of book 5.
It's possible he sent Petunia a howler because he wanted it heard by all for some reason. She is likely to have opened a normal owl, since it's not usual for her to get one. But no guarantee. A normal owl she could have kept to herself. A howler also self destructs, possibly an advantage.

Big question: Do students learn to write howlers at Hogwarts before or after they learn to apparate?

JadeDragon

January 8th, 2004, 3:12 pm

Makes sense, barmy codger. DD might have wanted Petunia to have to start acknowledging her part in what's been happening since Harry arrived at the Dursleys' house all those years ago.
I bet anyone may write a Howler if they purchase a special envelope for it or something. That way a charm may transform any letter into a self-destructing ball of instant humiliation if it had been written in anger. :)

sindatur

January 8th, 2004, 3:36 pm

Since we don't know what makes a Howler, Howl, it's also perfectly logical that it could just be when you write it in all capital letters (Like on the net or in an email, if you write in all caps, it's considered screaming, maybe a Howler just takes this one step further). And of course, you probably would have to throw in a wand wave or something to make it act aggressively.

purplehawk

January 8th, 2004, 3:59 pm

Dedalus Diggle

January 8th, 2004, 5:46 pm

Changing to subject to a new layer, has anyone thought the descriptions of Molly's and Lupin's relationship unusual in OotP? I didn't think much of it when reading the argument about what Harry should and shouldn't be told when he first arrived at Grimmaud Place. In retrospect, however, Lupin seemed keenly attuned to Molly that night.

Then there was the business with Molly and the boggart - and it was Lupin who calmed her while Arthur was oblivious downstairs at the prefects' celebration.

Finally, on Christmas morning after Percy returned the jumper she'd made him, the twins left it to Lupin to comfort her. Arthur was, of course, still in St. Mungo's at the time... but that's three occasions all in the first-half of the book!

I wonder if JK is telling us something? I know there has been a lot of speculation about Arthur or Molly dying in one of the last two books, but this Molly-Remus relationship has really caught my attention.

Or maybe you're projecting based on your own roving eye, eh, PH?

Actually it would not be surprising: in wartime stress, people often couple in ways that would be uncharacteristic of them in other circumstances. But that one could create a lot of rifting among the Order. It seems a bit more difficult in that Lupin can't be much older than Bill, and probably at least knew him at Hogwarts (both Gryffindors, I believe). It might be all related to Molly's taking on the role of Mother Hen to all the Order, rather than a 'special relationship' of the sort you suspect.

Jessica

January 8th, 2004, 7:14 pm

purplehawk, you naughty girl ;)

On Lupin, if Harry is 15 (let's say Lily and James were between 20 and 25 when they had him - rememeber they've defied Voldemort three times at this point so they will probably be towards the older edge of this range). That makes Lily, James, Lupin, Sirius and Snape between 35 and 40.

They can't be any older than this because Lucius Malfoy is 41 and I'm pretty sure he would have been mentioned if he was in their year.

I think Charlie is supossed to be around 30 so Bill must be a little younger than this putting Molly at at least 50.

On the howler, I always thought it was just an extra service offered by the post. Since it comes in a distinctive envelope and all. Pay a couple of extra knuts and get a howler instead of a regular letter.

whizbang121

January 8th, 2004, 9:38 pm

The marauders were all born in '59 to '60. Lily and James were 20 when Harry was born and 21 when they were killed.

Just by nature, Lupin is very empathetic. He isn't at all superficial and seems to be able to relate to everyone on deeper levels. Lupin's response to Molly, an emotionally needy individual, is to offer her emotional support.

I think we saw this aspect of Lupin again in the hospital when he wanted to offer support to the werewolf there. Supportive is who Lupin is. A strong arm and a soft shoulder, his enormous strength, gained through pain, sorrow and friendship, are his gifts to offer.

Without the acceptance and support of Dumbledore and his friends and fellow marauders, I wonder what kind of person Lupin would have turned out to be. It's all connected.

purplehawk

January 8th, 2004, 11:09 pm

Whoa, wait a minute! I wasn't suggesting an affair between them, just an extraordinary empathy and closeness in terms of habits of mind. Molly is a true-blue "Mrs. Weasley," and I certainly don't mean to imply otherwise. I just had this horrible image of her losing Arthur somehow and wondered what roll Lupin might play in that scenario.

The marauders were all born in '59 to '60. Lily and James were 20 when Harry was born and 21 when they were killed.

I find this hard to believe. Has JK ever said they were barely out of their teens when they were killed? I've always seen them as mid-to-late twenties at the time Harry was born and thus placed Lupin and Sirius in their early 40's in OotP.

I think Charlie is supossed to be around 30 so Bill must be a little younger than this putting Molly at at least 50.

I agree with Molly's general age, but Bill is the older brother. Charlie is Weasley Number 2.

whizbang121

January 9th, 2004, 12:05 am

The dates are from the lexicon. I think they are based on an interview answer where she gave the age of Snape or Sirius. I forget. (Dementia) I'll go look it up.

Here's James bio from the Lexicon. (http://www.hp-lexicon.org/james.html)

purplehawk

January 9th, 2004, 12:16 am

Sabine

January 9th, 2004, 12:24 am

I read it... but I still don't buy it. They were supposed to be accomplished aurors who had thrice defied Lord Voldemort, weren't they? When would they have had time to do anything in any career if they died at 21?

You know .... that's something that bugged me ever since someone linked me to that lexikon.... We don't know if they were aurors ( I don't think so) but nevertheless .... they left school at 17 and got killed at 21???

Would they have been aurors then we have to "press in" three years for the training too. And they would have been 20 when Harry was born????

I still don't like it, but since it seems to be a fact I will have to "live with it"
:grumble:

Sabine

whizbang121

January 9th, 2004, 12:39 am

Here's the quote from the interview given when the Comic Relief books were released, between GoF and OotP.

How old are Professor Dumbledore and Professor Snape?

Dumbledore's about 150 years old... wizards have a longer life expectancy than us Muggles, Snape's 35 or 6.

This (http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2001/0301-comicrelief-staff.htm) is the link to the whole interview.
So, if Snape is 35 or 36 in GoF and he was a classmate of Lily and the marauders, then the Potters would have been between 20 and 22 when Harry was born and a year older when they were killed.

I think there's more information on the timeline on cd2 of CoS, as well. And Sabine is right. The Potters worked for the Order, but their professions are still a mystery.

Jessica

January 9th, 2004, 12:45 am

Aack. I knew about that danm interview and I spaced.

SO they graduated Hogwarts at 17. And they were dead at 21 - 22. They definietly didn't have time to do auror training then. They barely had time to defy Voldemort three times before they died. I don't know, I know JKR's the boss but that seems really tight.

But then again Harry's only 15 and he's already defied Voldemort three times (four if you count CoS).

I wonder if he knew something about the Potters that we don't know?

Sabine

January 9th, 2004, 12:46 am

Yes I know that interview and I still don't like it! :p

But maybe she was giving the age of them for the year Harry came to school? [trying to win some more years :D ]

Sabine

edit:

Jessica I don't think you can compare that. Harry is the choosen one. Voldemort is after him. In the times of Lily and James he was after all wizards and not particulary behind them.

Sabine

Jessica

January 9th, 2004, 1:11 am

Yeah, I know Harry is the chosen one. That's why I think it's strange that

1) His parents defied Voldemort so many times at such a young age and

2) Voldemort "chose" to go after Harry first.

I know the Longbottoms defied Voldemort three times too but they were both Aurors and also most likely older (because of the fact that they were older)

I'm just wondering if maybe there's a reason that James and Lily had so much contact with Voldemort at such a young age.

whizbang121

January 9th, 2004, 1:38 am

But what if the Potters were still in school when they defied him once or twice?

They were dating the the 7th year. And maybe they defied him before they were a couple.

You know how I'm always saying that it's kind of funny for a former death eater's worst memory to be a school prank? What if it was more? What if Snape was already on Voldemort's payroll? How much of that scene did we not see?

Jessica

January 9th, 2004, 1:41 am

But whiz, why would Voldemort go after kids?

He's barely willing to kill his own Death Eaters personally so he certainly wadn't hanging around with young Snivellus.

Lily and James were kids. 17 - 21. Why would they have so much contact with him?

whizbang121

January 9th, 2004, 1:50 am

Why did they become the parents of the ONE?

Lily's green eyes.

Godric's Hollow.

?????? Snape?

At tht time, the Dark Lord was gathering followers, and Lily was a muggleborn. :huh: And James loved her.

Jessica

January 9th, 2004, 1:55 am

Exactly! Now we're on the same page!

Does Voldemort know something about Lily and James that we don't?

Masterfroggy

January 9th, 2004, 2:09 am

Exactly! Now we're on the same page!

Does Voldemort know something about Lily and James that we don't?

You might as well ask why did James love Lily, was it just love or was it preordained, has the destiny of two separated threads in the cosmic rug come together in Lily and James, is this a once and for all, chance to end the perpetual evil that is embodied in Voldemort. With Harry being the ever-undying knight of light.

Note I know this may come across as 'Froggy' being sarcastic but I am not, this is something that I have thought on for a long time, I have read other books that carry this theme, (I just can not remember their titles at the moment, but Michael Morecock springs to mind)

Jessica

January 9th, 2004, 2:12 am

Well, I agree with you on the "Why did James love Lily" bit.

But on the other bit I think it is more similar to "Why did Voldemort try to kill Harry" Which turned out to be a rather intersting answer ;)

You're right though, in the absence of Book 6 it is very hard to know what question we should be asking and what questions are just banging our heads against the wall.

whizbang121

January 9th, 2004, 2:17 am

Welcome to the headbanger's ball. Sounds like a new thread to me.:lol:

Masterfroggy

January 9th, 2004, 2:23 am

Welcome to the headbanger's ball. Sounds like a new thread to me.:lol:

If you post it they will come

whizbang121

January 9th, 2004, 2:34 am

Can't think of a topic. Frustration in Harry Potter?

purplehawk

January 9th, 2004, 4:03 am

Okay, I see that now. I still don't believe it's possible. I think she misspoke. And I'm quite ready to be proven wrong.

whizbang121

January 9th, 2004, 4:09 am

One of the things about the idea of "layers" in Harry Potter, is that in interviews, JKR only discusses the outer most layer. She will occasionally suggest that people are on the right track or they should keep reading, but she almost never goes beneath that top layer. Silver Ink Pot has a great quote about Spartans that couldn't sum her methods up any better. I think it's in alchemy. I'll go check.

It's in the Core of Harry Potter (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=411&page=3).

I think during the coming 'war' that the Spartan view will become prominent! It is something you could call the 'core' of the book as well! Harry is a Spartan in his upbringing, his hard work, and his friendships! All the children and teachers eat together at Hogwarts and at Grimmauld Place - a very Spartan idea. Snape could be a Spartan leader since he doesn't believe in doing anything the "easy" way: all his detentions depend on elbow grease. He insists on obedience to authority - very Spartan. And remember the test that Lupin gives as his final exam in PoA? He makes the children do an obstacle course that is very militaristic. The famous leader of the Spartans and the founder of their democratic government was named 'Lycurgus' or "wolf worker." So he was a wolfish leader like Lupin, and he hadlost an eye like Moody, who is like a soldier/commander.

Here is a good link about Spartan life, with an excerpt about the wittiness of the Spartans. That is certainly a big part of the Harry Potter books!

http://www.e-classics.com/lycurgus.htm
Quote:
----------------------------------------
Their sayings were so sharp and pertinent that the Spartans were more famous for their wit than for their prowess as soldiers and athletes. Even though at war and in sports they were by far the best in Greece, intellectual exercise was considered to be the essence of the Spartan way of life. From an early age, they learned to pack many layers of meaning into a few words -- and, more importantly, when to speak and when to shut up.

This where idea of layers in Harry Potter came from.

purplehawk

January 9th, 2004, 4:33 am

Cool! I wonder if the mention of Malfoy's age (41) in OotP was a clue to something else. I mean it seems an obvious plant. Lucius is the "right" age for being the father of a 16yo son - the age Lily, James, Sirius, Lupin and Snape should be at or approaching. Dumbledore told Harry in PoA that he knew James very well, both at Hogwarts and after. Well, if that Lexicon article is true, there sure wasn't much after!

whizbang121

January 9th, 2004, 4:46 am

Well, the only thing I can say about the Lexicon timelines is that they were corrected against the timeline approved by JKR for the CoS video.

phoenixsong

January 9th, 2004, 10:55 am

Welcome to the headbanger's ball. Sounds like a new thread to me.:lol:Can't think of a topic. Frustration in Harry Potter?Irresolvable conundrums? The questions for which we really have to wait until Book 7 but want an answer NOW?

Sabine

January 9th, 2004, 11:06 am

I too don't think that they were involved in much Voldy-thingys during their schooltime.

We often read that Dumbledore was the one that Voldemort feared the most. And in the Order are no underage wizards allowed.

I don't think Snape could have been a Death Eater then. He possibly would not have been able to attend meetings or else. And since he was a student at that time I think it is highly questionable that he would be able to spy on Dumbledore and really come across "important stuff" that Voldemort would have wanted to know.

The only thing that I can imagine right now, would have been if Snape had somehow to recruit students. But since Snape doesn't seem to have been a student with many friends or followers I think this is highly unlikely too....

We are also told that Harry again and again accomplishes things that Dumbledore never had seen done before from a kid his age. So I think it is highly unlikely that James, Lily or the Marauders defied Voldemort during schooltime.

So we are left with 3 years in which Lily and James had to defy Voldemort thrice. And we are left with four years for Snape in which he first turns to Voldemort and then back again.

I always gathered that Lily and James did some thing after finishing school that was responsible for them "running" into Voldemort so often. I am not so sure that becoming members of the Order was enough or if maybe Lily was working as an unspeakable down in the DoM. She or for that matter James too, could have had to work with "mysteries" that where highly interessting for Voldemort.

It is also not clear when Voldemort showed up again after he travelled wide and far on his errand to become immortal. Or do we know this and I just can't think of it at the moment?

Oh and Malfoys age.... I found that "funny" too, but I thought she was giving it us because she knew that everyone was trying to figure out how old anyone was.

Sabine

purplehawk

January 9th, 2004, 1:37 pm

Good post, Sabine. I think the same about Malfoy's age... and also that most of our favorite older characters are Malfoy's contemporaries.

whizbang121

January 9th, 2004, 3:21 pm

Could it have anything to do with why Harry has no grandparents? And what does Petunia know about all this?

sindatur

January 9th, 2004, 3:40 pm

I don't find it so odd that Voldemort could've been thrice defied by Lily and James in a 3 year to 4 year period. It was a war, if they joined the Order immediately after school, that's practically a lifetime in a Wartime environment.

Aurors? Nah I don't think L&J could've been Aurors, I would imagine (or at least hope) Aurors are paid fairly well, JKR's quote about James inherited money, leads me to believe that he (if not she as well) did not have a well paying job.

Imagine the twins, they're now 17, and can join the Order. I find it very plausible they can do something in the next few years to get under Voldemort's skin, and cause them to be seen as defying him several times. An invention of theirs could be used to thwart evil deeds, or overhear plans being made, that's defiance, isn't it? Voldemort was apparently quite familiar with Lily, to mention that he should've seen her ancient magic coming. So maybe James and/or Lily were doing R&D for the Order, or in the DoM. BTW, do you think messing up a Death Eater mission (That Big "V" isn't on himself personally) could be considered defying Voldemort?

We've gotten the impression that Bellatrix is older than Snape, haven't we? Well, if Bella is older than Snape, she could've brought Snape into the DE club, which makes it not implausible that Snape could've been a DE, and a turncoat (for a year) in his first 4 years out of school. And being as Lucius is 4-8 years older than Snape, and Bella at least a year or two older than Snape, it's all together possible that Lucius brought Bella into the fold, as he would've been an upper classman, when Bella was in school. Actually, now that I think of it, since Bella is Lucius' sister-in-law, no reason for there to need to be a school connection between them.

There's just so much that JKR is hiding from us, that, just about anything is possible, and most of it is plausible, IMHO.

Dedalus Diggle

January 9th, 2004, 3:59 pm

Imagine the twins, they're now 17, and can join the Order. I find it very plausible they can do something in the next few years to get under Voldemort's skin.

I imagine them giving him a Canary Cream which he eats in front of the Death Eaters.

Sabine

January 9th, 2004, 4:28 pm

So maybe James and/or Lily were doing R&D for the Order, or in the DoM. BTW, do you think messing up a Death Eater mission (That Big "V" isn't on himself personally) could be considered defying Voldemort?

Sorry that I always do ask such stupid questions ... but what means: R&D .... has this something to do with GD&R (grin, duck and run)?

Be back later.

Sabine

whizbang121

January 9th, 2004, 4:29 pm

Okay, the Potters are about 18 when they get out of Hogwarts. They marry and Harry is born when they are 20-21. But they had thrice defied Voldemort before the prophesy was made. And it was made before Harry was born. Trelawney tells Umbridge how long she's been at Hogwarts, (I can't remember). If we can rely on that to give us the year at least that the prophesy was made, we'll know by when both the Longbottoms and the Potters had thrice defied the Dark Lord.

R & D = research and development. Hi Sabine!

The lexicon gives the year of the prophesy as 1979. If Lily and the marauders were born in '59-'60, they would have started Hogwarts in '71 and finished in the spring of '78 and married. Only a year or so to defy the Dark Lord in before the prophesy was made. Does this relate to Petunia's vague statements about dementors and the awful boy? What was going on that year and what did Petunia know?

purplehawk

January 9th, 2004, 4:45 pm

Okay, the Potters are about 18 when they get out of Hogwarts. They marry and Harry is born when they are 20-21. But they had thrice defied Voldemort before the prophesy was made. And it was made before Harry was born. Trelawney tells Umbridge how long she's been at Hogwarts, (I can't remember). If we can rely on that to give us the year at least that the prophesy was made, we'll know by when both the Longbottoms and the Potters had thrice defied the Dark Lord.

Sybill told Umbridge she had been at Hogwarts "nearly sixteen years." The timing of Umbridge's appointment as High Inquisitor was in the fall, weeks before their Halloween weekend gathering at the Hog's Head.

"On a cold, wet night sixteen years ago, in a room above the bar at the Hog's Head Inn. I had gone there to see an applicant for the post of Divination Teacher... "

Dumbledore was speaking, of course, in the chapter "The Lost Prophecy," and that conversation took place at the end of June.

whizbang121

January 9th, 2004, 5:08 pm

That puts the prophesy almost exactly a year before Harry was born and a year after the Potters graduated.

Sabine

January 9th, 2004, 5:14 pm

I don't know where but I think in some thread we figured out that the prophecy was given "shortly" before Harrys birth... I have to think where and why that was.... :grumble:

Sabine

edit: got it!!!!

pg 740 Bloomsbury:

Voldemort tried to kill you when you were a child because of a prophecy made shortly before your birth.

Sabine

Vigilance

January 9th, 2004, 5:17 pm

Actually, the comment in June seems to indicate that Trelawney made the prediction only a month or so before Harry was born.
OotP, Harry is 15 going on 16 (B-day in July). With only a month or so to go before turning 16, DD says the prophecy was spoken 16 years ago.

I don't find it difficult to believe that Harry's parents could defy Voldie at the age of 21. Most kids in the States are out of college by that time. Think of all the chances they have to say "no" to dangerous and moral-challenging influences.
Even Ginny has a couple of Voldie-defiances under her belt and she's only 14.

purplehawk

January 9th, 2004, 5:29 pm

Whiz, it only puts the prophecy one month before Harry was born. The prophecy was given sixteen years ago (from June) and Harry was born a month later.

whizbang121

January 9th, 2004, 5:51 pm

Well this is confusing. Harry's fifth year at Hogwarts starts in Sept 1995 and ends in June 1996. Trelawny says during the school year that she has been there nearly 16 years, and Dumbledore repeats this at the end of the book. And

Not as tall as Ron, he had to crane his neck to read the yellowish label affixed to the shelf right beneath the dusty glass ball. In spidery writing was given a date of some sixteen years previously, ...
So, it must have been 1980. :huh:

So there are two years to work with from '78 - '80.

Jessica

January 9th, 2004, 7:25 pm

Here's the anomoly.

Take Harry out of the equation - now think about someone who is clearly not chosen like the elder Weasleys. Can you imagine Voldemort having personal contact with Bill? Charlie? Fred and George? They're all in the Order (Well Fred and George will almost certainly be next book). But even so they're too insignificant for Voldemort to deal with personally.

The only reason I can think of is that either Lily and James had something that Voldemort wanted or he had heard something that indicated that they would be the parents of the Chosen One.

Otherwise why wouldn't he just send his minions after them?

Angora

January 9th, 2004, 7:41 pm

I tend to agree with the people who say the story isn't necessarily meant to take place during a specific set of years. And certainly, if you look at all of the things that give it dates, you can never get a specific set of dates that works in all instances (because of discrepancies in calander dates, full moon, Nick's deathday, when the Playstation was invented, etc). So, when I look at how old the characters are and timelines and things, I never try to attach them too firmly to specific years. I don't remember why I was pointing that out, but let's just pretend I was working around to a really good point. ;)

Now, I have another problem and I hope you can help me out. The "defy" part of the prophecy bothers me a lot. Because for me, "defy" always has a connotation, and usually a denotation of either ignoring or agressively challenging something or someone who has some sort of generally accepted authority. You can defy your parents or teachers or even your crossing guard, but it would sound weird to say that you're defying some random guy who says "No, don't do that!" So, in this case, saying that Lilly and James defied Voldemort, it seems like saying that they either disobeyed or fought back against order that you might expect them to obey. Which confuses me on any number of levels. Maybe I'm misinterpreting how much power big V managed to get the first time around? Or how many people supported him? Because the defiance suggests to me that he had rather a majority of people obeying him. And that sounds wrong. Maybe it's just me, and the word is usually used to mean something else?

Jessica

January 9th, 2004, 7:52 pm

Angora,

I agree with you on the word "defy". It's always struck me as incongruous.

But to me, the prophesy implies a direct interaction between Voldemort and the Potters.

On the years thing, I disagree to a certain extent. I don't think it's necessarily supposed to take place in a specific year, but we do know that JKR spent a long time on the back story and the logistics of the books. So while a specific year (1974) may be incorrect I would imagine that the number of years between events is part of a carefully constructed timeline.

Have I mentioned recently how much I want her to post her notes when she finishes Book 7?

barmy codger

January 9th, 2004, 8:02 pm

Dumbledore's conversation with Harry took place at the end of May, so you have two months between the Prophecy and Harry's birth, I think.

Dumbledore also remarks that Harry has escaped Voldmort four times, something his parents and the Longbottoms had never achieved, so that implies direct conflicts with Voldemort. At least I think it does. I can't imagine how they would do it; the current Order of Phoenix members, which include Aurors, could barely keep Deatheaters at bay. Also, Harry's escapes have had assistance from others. His mother's protection before Voldemort's curse. Dumbledore pulled him from Quirrell. And Dumbledore saved him in the Ministry of Magic. The only time Harry saved his own skin on his own was in the graveyard. Not to belittle Harry, but it suggests that people like Lilly and James and the Longbottoms could defy Voldemort, but needed Dumbledore's help to escape. The three defiances of Voldemort also could have been group efforts, so instead of six total we have three combined.

jordmundt6

January 9th, 2004, 8:03 pm

Whiz--No. Harry will turn 16 a little over a month after the end of Book 5. "16 years ago" would be the year Harry was born. The prophecy occurred weeks before Harry and Neville's births.

purplehawk

January 9th, 2004, 9:10 pm

Dumbledore's conversation with Harry took place at the end of May, so you have two months between the Prophecy and Harry's birth, I think.

It was June, Barmy. Here's the proof:

The castle grounds were gleaming in the sunlight as though freshly painted; the cloudless sky smiled at itself in the smoothly sparkling lake, the satin-green lawns rippled occasionally in a gentle breeze: June had arrived, but the fifth years this meant only one thing: Their O.W.L.s were upon them at last. (Emphasis mine).

barmy codger

January 9th, 2004, 9:37 pm

It was June, Barmy. Here's the proof:

(Emphasis mine).
Yes, you're right, of course. The timeline I had saved marked the month of May but not June, and it numbered last days in May above the events described later. I'll use another from now on. I wasn't awake. I humbly and profusely apologise.

sindatur

January 9th, 2004, 10:11 pm

We do believe Voldemort had a very large following, and had subjugated the Wizarding World to a certain extent on his last rise (IE: The 1970s).

So, to me anyone who worked against him (or his Death Eaters) and came out on top, would be seen as defying him. For instance, Harry, Ginny, Neville, Hermione, Ron and Luna defied Voldemort in their protecting of the Prophecy, even though it wasn't Voldemort personally, it was a mission he sent the DEs on, and the DEs came back empty handed.

Jessica

January 9th, 2004, 10:16 pm

sindatur

January 9th, 2004, 10:22 pm

But if that's the case Sindatur then wouldn't there be far more members of the Order that qualified than just the Potters and the Longbottoms? (Although I guess the due date does narrow it down somewhat)

I don't know, it just feels personal to me.

But the Order was extremely out-manned last time, lots of members were killed, so I get the impression that things were going very badly, and there were very few times that a victory of any kind was accomplished by the Order the last time around. What was it 10-1, I think Moody said? Heck with those kind of odds, getting away with your life would almost be considered a victory, but, I doubt they were able to prevent Big V and Death Eaters from doing very many things.

Does the Prophecy say only the Longbottoms and the Potters succeeded in defying him 3 times, or does it say they were successful in defying him 3 times (leaving it open to interpretation if more people had defied him that many times)

Jessica

January 9th, 2004, 10:25 pm

I believe the exact text is "born to those that have thrice defied him"

sindatur

January 9th, 2004, 10:36 pm

I believe the exact text is "born to those that have thrice defied him"

So there could be 1000 people that thrice defied him, it's the birthday and the marking that narrows down those possible 1000 to Neville/Harry, and ultimately to only Harry. (Not that I believe that many successes were had, but, it doesn't state noone aside from the Potters and Longbottoms had, so could be any number of people)

By using the logic that only the Potters and Longbottoms could have thrice defied him, does that also mean that Neville and Harry were the only babies born at the end of July?

Jessica

January 9th, 2004, 10:41 pm

So basically we're at an impasse. I do agree with your numbers but I still think that the "defiance" means a personal encounter with Voldemort. Could be wrong, could be right, but I'm sticking to my guns until JKR says I'm wrong :)

Which unfortunately seems to happen more often than I would like.

Angora

January 9th, 2004, 11:07 pm

On the years thing, I disagree to a certain extent. I don't think it's necessarily supposed to take place in a specific year, but we do know that JKR spent a long time on the back story and the logistics of the books. So while a specific year (1974) may be incorrect I would imagine that the number of years between events is part of a carefully constructed timeline.

I'd go along with that. Probably the number of years between the events is meant to be consistent (although, I think in some instances she left it to work itself out a little more than she planned it).

I'm glad I'm not the only one who finds the "defy" odd. :)

Sabine

January 9th, 2004, 11:36 pm

I don't find it difficult to believe that Harry's parents could defy Voldie at the age of 21. Most kids in the States are out of college by that time. Think of all the chances they have to say "no" to dangerous and moral-challenging influences.
Even Ginny has a couple of Voldie-defiances under her belt and she's only 14.

I don't know a thing about your schoolsystem but when our kids do leave schools they are just ready with the school. They then have to underwent some years of a training in the jobs they want to learn or study at some university or else. School is there for the "basics" but there is no experience or know-how or what you would ever like to call it. It must be very different in the wizarding world if you can compare someone who just has left school to other wizards with years of experience... and I think that "defying" Voldemort is different from saying "no" to drugs or the temptaion to break some cigarette machine ;)

Take Harry out of the equation - now think about someone who is clearly not chosen like the elder Weasleys. Can you imagine Voldemort having personal contact with Bill? Charlie? Fred and George? They're all in the Order (Well Fred and George will almost certainly be next book). But even so they're too insignificant for Voldemort to deal with personally.

I don't think we can compare the time Lily and James lived in with the time Harry lives in. Since Voldemort is now after Harry as one of his main goals, it seems only logical that the ones that are near to Harry get involved far more easily than 16 years before where Voldemort just wanted to rule the world and was mostly after all of them. Since the night at Godrics Hollow Harry is the center-concern of Voldemort and I think this makes the difference.

The only reason I can think of is that either Lily and James had something that Voldemort wanted or he had heard something that indicated that they would be the parents of the Chosen One.

I think that Voldemort, after hearing the half of the prophecy, was eagerly trying to find out who those parents could be. And I think there may have been more people which had thrice defied him, but I too do think there was only a limited amount of them couples. So - in essence - I think the interest that Voldemort had in Lily and James mostly arose when he found out that they could be one of the couples in question.

Another possibility could be that James indeed was related to Dumbledore and Voldemort was after James anyhow to hurt Dumbledore or whatever screwed Voldemort may have been thinking.

Now, I have another problem and I hope you can help me out. The "defy" part of the prophecy bothers me a lot. Because for me, "defy" always has a connotation, and usually a denotation of either ignoring or agressively challenging something or someone who has some sort of generally accepted authority. You can defy your parents or teachers or even your crossing guard, but it would sound weird to say that you're defying some random guy who says "No, don't do that!" So, in this case, saying that Lilly and James defied Voldemort, it seems like saying that they either disobeyed or fought back against order that you might expect them to obey. Which confuses me on any number of levels. Maybe I'm misinterpreting how much power big V managed to get the first time around? Or how many people supported him? Because the defiance suggests to me that he had rather a majority of people obeying him. And that sounds wrong. Maybe it's just me, and the word is usually used to mean something else?

I am really not the best person to answer that question :elaugh: but why does it sound wrong?

I always was under the impression that the time during the first war with Voldemort indeed was in generell essentially more "unpleasant" (sorry can't think of a better word now, probably when I have hit the send button :grumble:). I seem to remeber somebody telling Harry that in the time of the first war people had to distrust just everybody. Even friends couldn't be sure of themselves at that time. Voldemorts people controlled most of them. The people used to live in fear day in and day out. (It bothers me to no end that I can't remeber which book this is in to look it up :grumble: :grumble: PURPLEHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWK I'm in need for the queen of quotes! Help me out please ;) )

The order was outnumbered horrendously (I can't remeber the odds too :sigh:).

Thats not the way it is et the end of OotP. I would dare to say not nearly so. More than half of the wizarding world did not even recognise that Voldy was back - let alone feared anything.

While the order then seemed to be hoplessly behind they seem to be almost ahead of Voldemort this time.

Got a little carried away :whistle: sorry

So, to me anyone who worked against him (or his Death Eaters) and came out on top, would be seen as defying him. For instance, Harry, Ginny, Neville, Hermione, Ron and Luna defied Voldemort in their protecting of the Prophecy, even though it wasn't Voldemort personally, it was a mission he sent the DEs on, and the DEs came back empty handed.

I disagree on that one sindatur. In my opinion Ginny, Neville, Hermione, Ron and Luna have defied the Death eaters but not Voldemort himself.

Isn't Voldemort supposed to be the darkest wizard of all times or something like that? I don't think you can compare defying Voldemort to defying Death Eaters. :no:

Sabine

purplehawk

January 9th, 2004, 11:44 pm

I don't know about a boatload of people "defying" Voldemort even once, let alone 3 times. In fact, Dumbledore made rather an issue of it in the Last Prophecy chapter.

"He chose the boy he thought most likely to be a danger to him," said Dumbledore. "And notice this, Harry. He chose, not the pureblood (which, according to his creed, is the only kind of wizard worth being or knowing), but the half-blood, like himself. He saw himself in you before he had ever seen you, and in marking you with that scar, he did not kill you, as he intended, but gave you powers, and a future, which have fitted you to escape him not once, but four times so far - something neither your parents, nor Neville's parents, ever achieved."

This quote is critical, I think, to so many things we can't figure out. Voldemort choosing "the boy he thought most likely to be a danger to him," for example. Why would Voldemort perceive Harry, a half-blood, to be more dangerous to him than Neville, the pureblood son of two aurors? Could there have been something we don't know about Lilly Evans Potter that plays into the choice he made? Some have speculated that he chose Harry only because of Wormtail's betrayal of the Potters, but I've never bought that theory.

And the last phrase of the quote... again, it seems as though defying Voldemort three times was an extraordinary achievement. The fact Harry has managed it four times is even more so. I still think James and Lily were employed with the MoM and probably one of them, at least, was indeed an auror.

Later in Dumbledore's explanation to Harry he makes another statement I feel is also crucial:

"... Consequently, he could not warn his master that to attack you would be to risk transferring power to you - again marking you as his equal. So Voldemort never knew that there might be danger in attacking you, that it might be wise to wait or to learn more. He did not know you would have 'power the Dark Lord knows not - "

I'd love to know why Voldemort would even be concerned about transferring power to Harry, even if he had the full text of the prophecy before he went to Godric's Hollow! There is nothing in the wording of the prophecy that even hints at that possibility... so there just has to be something with either James or Lily that Voldemort would have known - and JK has conveniently not bothered to tell us!

Jessica

January 10th, 2004, 12:13 am

Thanks for the quote purplehawk. I knew I had a good reason for thinking that was the case.

I'm right there with you on the rest of the prophesy. In hindsight I can see the "mark him as his equal" eluding to this but if I were hearing it sixteen years ago I don;t know that the solution would have occurred to me.

Danm JKR and her secretiveness. Hurry up with Book 6. At least give us a title. An interview. Anything.

Vigilance

January 10th, 2004, 12:20 am

Masterfroggy

January 10th, 2004, 12:59 am

To me, "to defy" has no special connotation. In its most basic meaning, it indicates "open resistance" (see Oxford abridged). Lily and James certainly openly resisted the influence of Voldemort, if nothing else. I also hold the one responsible for handing out the orders ultimately responsible for the consequences of those orders. I don't have a problem lumping Voldie's minions into the same category as Voldie, especially if they are under orders or working on his behalf. it's his will Lilly and James are resisting. This doesn't excuse the DEs of personal responsibility, but it certainly implicates Voldie in the ultimate design.

As for the negative influences one has the opportunity to openly resist in a US college, I think many are more insidious than saying "no" to Voldemort would be. Defying Voldie might be more dangerous, but in some ways, I think it would be easier--because Voldie is a straight-forward evil. You'd know you were doing the right thing when you did it. I think that's one of the reasons it's so believable that Harry could openly defy Voldie. It's like defying the devil. Even kids can do it.

To put it another way, defying Voldie would be like resisting Nazi control. Many young people resisted Hitler, for example, and went off to fight his armies. I would certainly say they were attempting to defy his control, even though they may never have seen him in the flesh. Perhaps, this is because I've listened to my grandfather (who was barely 18 when he fought in WWII) talk about the goals of the war. He specifically mentions the man and his ideals.

I don't know; I can't underestimate the shining ideals and wills of young people. I teach them every day. And I know how many of my male students would have quit college to go to Iraq (though I personally disagree with GWB's decision to make war). All of those incredibly young men invariably mention the figurehead Sadam and don't target the regime specifically, even though Sadam undountedly never dirtied his own hands.

Maybe we should think about HP in context, rather than think of it in a more fairy-tale light? Young people decide every day what is worth fighting for, and they do that.

First year June 4th Harry has a go at Quirrel (with Lord Voldemort growing out of his head) and wins
Second year May 29th Harry takes on Tom Riddle and wins
That is he deified him twice in a single year
Third year June 9th Harry frees his godfather (nothing to do with Lord Voldemort)

Fourth year June 24th Harry escapes Lord Voldemort when he gets his body back
Fifth year May 28th Harry escapes from Lord Voldemort possession
Again, that is twice within a single year

During peacetime, a naval fighter pilot or any fighter pilot for that matter might fly a real combat mission once or twice in his whole career. (9 to 19 years) during war the same pilot would be expected to fly 15 missions per month.

I have worked with policemen who have seen nothing more exciting then the drunks on a Saturday night, I have also worked alongside policemen that have seen such terrible thing in their first month out collage (they are supposed to be escorted by an experienced officer, but what could go wrong at a football match on a sunny day in Bradford)

Lily and James could, in times of war come up against Death Eaters dozens of times, they may have faced the Dark lord himself several times either together or separately, or working alongside the Longbottoms. In peace times 4 might be quite a few but in war I doubt it would have taken long to rack up.

purplehawk

January 10th, 2004, 1:22 am

Has anyone ever speculated that Lily and Petunia might somehow be the offspring of Voldemort himself? Would that be the reason Petunia was so freaked when Harry told her Voldemort was back? Or the reason Voldemort chose Harry from the get-go after receiving information about the first part of the prophecy? Could it also explain why Lily and Petunia had no older relatives who could have taken Harry in?

Jessica

January 10th, 2004, 2:06 am

I keep trying to work my mind around Voldemort having an heir, but I keep getting slammed by the "last remaining ancestor/descendant of Salazar Slytherin" quote.

I personally believe it was an honest mistake since she was willing to change it. I think if it were a clue she would have stood firm. So I can't see how anyone still alive can be related to old Slythie.

Jerry

January 10th, 2004, 2:38 am

Well we know Voldy had a killed his father and grandparents. His mother died in childbirth and that he had no siblings. Also we know that the Riddles only had one son. That would leave only his mother for extra family connections and all we know about her is that she was a desendant of slytherin. I think there is a little more evidence pionting towards being a desendant of griffendor. But knowing JKR he probably will turn out to be related to ravenclaw. I still see nothing saying that he did choose Harry. Maybe and more likely he was planning to kill both harry and neville that same night but never got past harry. Thereby selecting Harry by default. P.s. nice tho be back and see you ladies still going strong.

whizbang121

January 10th, 2004, 2:47 am

According to the prophesy, Voldemort was going to mark the one. Anyone else he pointed a death curse at would have died. Only the one could be marked. Harry was marked. And interestingly, Dumbledore doesn't use the term defied. He says "escaped." Hmmm..... I still wonder what happened to Harry's grandparents. [quote] Later in Dumbledore's explanation to Harry he makes another statement I feel is also crucial:Originally Posted by Dumbledore, OotP p.843:
"... Consequently, he could not warn his master that to attack you would be to risk transferring power to you - again marking you as his equal. So Voldemort never knew that there might be danger in attacking you, that it might be wise to wait or to learn more. He did not know you would have 'power the Dark Lord knows not - "

I'd love to know why Voldemort would even be concerned about transferring power to Harry, even if he had the full text of the prophecy before he went to Godric's Hollow! There is nothing in the wording of the prophecy that even hints at that possibility... so there just has to be something with either James or Lily that Voldemort would have known - and JK has conveniently not bothered to tell us!

But maybe it's in the phrase, "the Dark Lord will mark him as an equal." Perhaps that's what that phrase means in the magical world.

I used to think Voldemort was Lily's father. I'm wondering again. It was in a pre OotP essay called Battleground. Essentially, Harry is descended from both Gryffindor and Slytherin so that Harry isn't just fighting the battle, he is the battleground.
But the whole idea of Voldemort's life force in the Sowelo rune or lightning bolt scar on Harry's forehead may be all the connection to Slytherin he needs. I think ultimately, the connection in the scar will be the battlefield.

Hi Jerry! Join us in Coffee and Cream II (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?p=751413#post751413)? Open invitation to all

barmy codger

January 10th, 2004, 10:29 am

On page 10 of Goblet of Fire US Voldemort says,"Come, Wormtail, one more death and our path to Harry Potter is clear." On page 12 he repeats, "One more murder...my faithful servant at Hogwarts...Harry Potter is as good as mine, Wormtail."

Can someone tell me who was murdered? Or point me to a discussion that explains this?

Some people are killed in the book but none seems to be the one he refers to. Bertha Jorkins was already dead. The remarks are made without knowing about Frank Bryce listening, so they aren't referring to him. The deaths of Barty Crouch Sr and Jr were not part of the plan to get Harry. Voldemort's account of things at the graveyard says nothing of it. Barty Crouch Jr. under Veritaserum says nothing of it. Cedric's death might have been it, but I don''t see how it could have been certain he would show up at the graveyard, and his death doesn't seem part of a plan -he was just the "spare." Each time I read the book I notice these remarks at the beginning but forget about them by the end. So I probably missed something in between.

purplehawk

January 10th, 2004, 2:08 pm

I don't think you missed anything. There was no clarifying bit in the book. I have always assumed Mad Eye was the intended victim because Voldemort spoke of his "one faithful servant" being on hand to accomplish it. The idea, I think, was to kidnap Moody and use him during the deception, then kill him once Harry had been transported to Voldemort.

phoenixsong

January 10th, 2004, 3:30 pm

I'd love to know why Voldemort would even be concerned about transferring power to Harry, even if he had the full text of the prophecy before he went to Godric's Hollow! There is nothing in the wording of the prophecy that even hints at that possibility... so there just has to be something with either James or Lily that Voldemort would have known - and JK has conveniently not bothered to tell us!
The way I have always read that bit, is not so much that Voldemort could have known specifically that powers could be transferred, but only that there was a whole sequence of events prophesied. He thought that there was only "one with the power to vanquish the dark lord"; if this were all, then it might be a risk to attack (since this one was to be born with power to vanquish the dark lord), but a fairly straightforward risk, and seemingly less in an infant than an adult. However, had he known the remainder of the prophecy, he would also have known that it could not be over so quickly, and surely the line "and the dark lord will mark him as his equal" would have given him pause, caused him to second-guess himself, at the least.

But you are right that there is nothing in the prophecy that should have caused Voldemort to have considered the possibility of the transfer of power.

Liselle

January 10th, 2004, 3:36 pm

On page 10 of Goblet of Fire US Voldemort says,"Come, Wormtail, one more death and our path to Harry Potter is clear." On page 12 he repeats, "One more murder...my faithful servant at Hogwarts...Harry Potter is as good as mine, Wormtail."

.

I think in subsequent versions of the books the word murder is changed to Charm....I wonder if that means anything in particular......

its a bit like that ancestor/descendent argument

purplehawk

January 10th, 2004, 3:58 pm

Liselle, can you give us the exact quote from the UK version? My American edition says "murder." I'd be really interested in knowing if there is a difference.

Angora

January 10th, 2004, 6:00 pm

That's weird. Mine says "One more curse" p.16 (printed in Canada but supposedly the same as the UK edition).

Oh, and for the first one, page 15, it says, "... come, Wormtail, one more obstacle removed and our path to Harry Potter is clear."

purplehawk

January 10th, 2004, 6:25 pm

I am SO glad they decided to stop editing American, German, British words in Order of the Phoenix. At least we've all ready the same words on the pages!

Vigilance

January 10th, 2004, 7:25 pm

Maybe Liselle is talking about paperback editions? I only have the hardcover (Am. edition). You know, like how the Lily-James confusion at the end of GoF was straightened out in paperback, but hardcover editions had the mistake?

Jessica

January 10th, 2004, 7:41 pm

No it's a fact that the American edition says murder twice while the UK editions say whatever she said they say.

However, interestingly enough, JKR has said that she herself "translates" the American editions so the use of the word "murder" is still intriguing.

purplehawk

January 10th, 2004, 8:13 pm

I bought a new boxed set for my grandson this Christmas and GoF now has Lily coming out of the wand first. It's about time!

Jessica

January 10th, 2004, 8:18 pm

purplehawk, the word "murder" hasn't been corrected in that edition, right?

purplehawk

January 10th, 2004, 8:33 pm

Nope. It's still there in both places.

whizbang121

January 11th, 2004, 2:13 am

I have a GoF hardcover Amer Ed. It say "death" on page 10 and "murder" on page 12.

Who did we decide was the death? Moody?

purplehawk

January 11th, 2004, 2:32 am

I have a GoF hardcover Amer Ed. It say "death" on page 10 and "murder" on page 12.

Who did we decide was the death? Moody?

You're right on the word "death" on page 12. I lumped the two together as neither said curse or charm.

I don't think we decided anything. That was just my opinion, bud.

whizbang121

January 11th, 2004, 2:40 am

Who else could it be?

It must have been Moody. Did they have to keep him alive to make the polyjuice? I don't think they could have known then that they would murder Cedric.

barmy codger

January 11th, 2004, 3:21 am

purplehawk

January 11th, 2004, 3:28 am

They had to keep Moody alive in order to make the polyjuice potion and keep Crouch Junior's deception alive. But my guess is that once Harry was transported to that cemetery, the real Moody would have been killed and Fake Moody would have returned to Voldemort, mission accomplished.

You know, Whiz, I wondered briefly if Crouch Senior could have been their target. I just reread page 10 and there's this statement:

"If?" whispered the second voice. "If? If you follow the plan, Wormtail, the Ministry need never know that anyone else has died. You will do it quietly and without fuss; I only wish I could do it myself, but in my present condition... "

That quote has always made me think it was Moody, but then he goes on to say this:

"Come, wormtail, one more death and our path to Harry Potter is clear. I am not asking you to do it alone. By that time, my faithful servant will have joined us - "

I'm interpreting that to mean Crouch Junior was still in London under his father's Imperious curse. Arguably, they could have been discussing Crouch's murder in order to get to his son, but somehow I don't think so...

Having Crouch Junior impersonate his father clearly wasn't part of the plan. And if he hadn't, the Ministry surely would have noticed Crouch's disappearance - as we saw. It had to be Moody.

Edit to Barmy: I've thought for some time that Wormtail was impersonating Percy throughout Order of the Phoenix, for the reason you state (Percy's weirdness) and also because of the glaring absence of Wormtail in any capacity during the book. I don't think it occurred a year earlier, however, as Percy seemed his normal pompous self in Goblet of Fire.

whizbang121

January 11th, 2004, 4:02 am

Moody seemed the most likely victim but he wasn't. My immediate suspicion is Percy Weasley because he's gone weird. I was going to check the scores he gave in the Triwizard Tournament to see if his substitute aided the cause by giving Harry high scores. But then any substitution would require the polyjuice potion disguise, and that would requiire the victim be kept alive. So if there were a murder the victim must be absent, not replaced. Perhaps Ms Rowling planned Moody's death but later saw the need to keep him alive and forgot to revise the beginning. Still, I'm thinking very hard about Percy Weasley. Well, not that hard. Haven't heard about him drinking from a hip flask.

I would not be surprised to learn this is a publishing mistake. My first copy of book 5 had about thirty pages missing -from page 756 on, the really exciting part- and had instead the previous thirty pages repeated.
Oh, that was the Canadian editions, wasn't it?

What about Crouch Sr.?

Oops! Hi Purp. :blush:
Well, who exactly do we know died in GoF?
Barty Crouch Sr. and Cedric. It couldn't have been Cedric.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I found this in the Post #153 (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?p=753662#post753662)

SnowyOwl []
Second Year
Joined: 354 days
Location: keeping Christmas
I think the caved-in passageway to Hogsmeade located behind the large mirror on the fourth floor is going to be used again. We have Fred and George talking about it in book 3 and Sirius talking about it in book 5 (when he is suggesting where the D.A. can practice). Harry mentions again that it is completely blocked. Well, Wormtail WAS a Marauder and would know about this passageway. I think it highly likely that this passage will be used by the baddies.

Today, 8:21 pm
Post #154

giantsquid11 []
First Year
Joined: 67 days
Location: The Lake at Hogwarts
Wow SnowyOwl- I hadn't thought of that! Since Wormatail is able to transform into a rat its quite likely he would be able to wriggle through that caved in passage and sneak into Hogwarts! I wonder how he will use that information...

Interesting.

barmy codger

January 11th, 2004, 4:38 am

But my guess is that once Harry was transported to that cemetery, the real Moody would have been killed and Fake Moody would have returned to Voldemort, mission accomplished.
"One more murder....my faithful servant at Hogwarts...Harry Potter is as good as mine." implies murder first, Harry's capture follows. Your chronology implies Harry's capture then the murder. If Moody was the intended victim he should have been killed at the start, I think. Crouch Sr might be the one but I think not. Crouch was functioning under the Imperius Curse that Voldemort himself had put on him, and that, not murder, sounds like a planned thing. But Harry's dream has Voldemort telling Wormtail, "Your blunder has not ruined everything. He is dead." Later Crouch Jr says that he killed Crouch Sr because the Imperius curse was wearing off. I assumed Wormtail's blunder was his neglect of Crouch Sr. But all that has nothing to do with a murder planned at the start of the book.

Whizbang, I live in Canada but bought first four books all at the same time in US during a visit. When book 5 came out I waited until another visit in September to buy a US copy to match the others. The first copy of book 5 with the page error was US, but later issue I guess. since it was September, also printed in Mexico. I looked for another copy immediately and found a brand new one in a second hand store, and it is actually an earlier printing. Printed in US. I think the later printing still had the same wording, but don't have the book now. If I had it to do over I would get the Canadian edition. I may buy a whole set once all seven are out. Maybe by then all the glitches will be repaired.

purplehawk

January 11th, 2004, 4:49 am

Meaning someone else was killed and we've yet to find out who it was?

It couldn't have been Percy, as Percy was active in the story until the third task. It wasn't Dumbledore because his death wasn't necessary to get to Harry. I can't think of anyone else who would stand in their path.

barmy codger

January 11th, 2004, 5:52 am

My apologies once again. I get so mixed up. Book 5 had the pages wrong. Book 4 has the quotes about murder. Both are US.

One thing I just noticed, while checking the quotes from Harry's dream book 4 US page 357: Harry begins his dream on the back of a flying owl. Since when did Harry have a connection with owls? Then the owl flies into a chair with its back to Harry, who has left the owl. Then the quotes come from the depths of the chair where the owl had landed. Had Voldemort been the owl? But Wormtail was there waiting. He wouldn't have been waiting around with his life hanging on the news if Voldemort had been out. So I guess this scene must be taken at face value.

Also, I've always felt that passageway caved in when Lockhart's backfired curse caused the rockslide in the Chamber of Secrets. An observation which may have nothing to do with anything at all.

Liselle

January 11th, 2004, 12:09 pm

Liselle, can you give us the exact quote from the UK version? My American edition says "murder." I'd be really interested in knowing if there is a difference.

I got one of Gladriel Waters reference guides (yes I'm weak!) and she says that in later versions it has been altered. THis is exactly what is says in the guide

*hem hem*
There was one HUGE difference between the UK and US versions of Book4 that we didn't see until our first guide had been printed. It reminds us of the kind of editing discrepencies we have found in book5. The trouble is, the one in Book4 dramatically impacts sleuthing, and we aren't sure if it was intentional or not. (We are told oddly that the US and canadian versions match, though we haven't seen one to verify). So far we haven't heard of it being changes and we were tracking it all the way until July of 2003.

On pages 10 and 12 of the US editions, Voldemort and wormtail use the word "murder" when talking of their plans. On pages 15 and 16 of the UK version, they use the word curse. Here are the various versions (plus the priori order)

Editions with death/murder and James first:
Scholastic HC 1st edition, 1st printing

Editions with obstacle/curse and James first
Bloomsbury HC 1st edition, 1st printing
Bloomsbury HC Deluxe 1st edition 1st printing

Editions with Death murder and Lily first
Scholastic HC edition 23 0/0 01 02 03 04
Scholastic paper edition 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 2 3 4 5 7/0 40

Editions with obstacle/curse and Lily first
bloomsbury HC edition 20
Bloomsbury paper 1st edition 1st printing

mine comes under the last one....this is the quote (pg 15)
...." one more obstacle removed and our path to Harry Potter is clear".....

Liselle

JadeDragon

January 11th, 2004, 2:54 pm

whizbang121

January 11th, 2004, 2:56 pm

Galadriel Waters again.

(suspicious)

What ever happened to Karkaroff?

purplehawk

January 11th, 2004, 2:57 pm

Barmy, Harry actually sees that owl earlier. He was in the owlery watching Hagrid digging in front of his cabin when the eagle owl soared overhead and then disappeared somewhere within the castle. From the timing of the owl's arrival, I have always assumed this was Voldemort's owl, arriving with the news of Crouch Senior's escape. This seems to be confirmed at the end of the book when Fake Moody tells Dumbledore:

"My master sent me word of my father's escape. He told me to stop him at all costs... For a week I waited for my father to arrive at Hogwarts. At last, one evening, the map showed my father entering the grounds. I pulled on my Invisibility Cloak and went down to meet him... "

What is so interesting, however, is Harry's dream has him riding on the owl as it wings its way back to Voldemort with the news that Crouch Senior had been killed. It was real-time, meaning Harry was dreaming it as it happened. After the dream, Harry went straight to Dumbledore's office and found Fake Moody in a discussion with Dumbledore and Fudge.

Edit: Am I the only one here who is insulted that the publishers feel the need to "translate" the books for the US? We speak the same language! I would hope US readers could figure out any minor differences in connotation or slang!
Look how many problems having different versions causes in our discussions on the forums. It's like Elizabeth trying to unite the churches, or something.
I think that "obstacle/curse" works better, because people just don't talk about murdering each other, at least not using the term "murder"... especially in the US, for which it was changed, apparently!

You are not the only one. If they were editing for Americans, "murder" might have been "pop" or some numeric slang I've yet to figure out.

whizbang121

January 11th, 2004, 3:05 pm

Who's office? ;)

The malfoys have an eagle owl.

purplehawk

January 11th, 2004, 3:09 pm

I know that. It brought treats to Draco in the Great Hall. But Harry could recognize the Malfoy's owl - it's mentioned a couple of times in the earlier books.

I'm guessing the eagle owl is the bird of choice for Voldemort and the death eaters.

Edit to Whiz:Who's office?

Thanks, buddy. I sure blew that one. It's fixed now.

whizbang121

January 11th, 2004, 3:14 pm

Maybe. So back to Karkaroff.

purplehawk

January 11th, 2004, 3:17 pm

Why are we talking about Karkaroff in the first place?

jordmundt6

January 11th, 2004, 3:25 pm

Liselle

January 11th, 2004, 3:30 pm

Am I the only one here who is insulted that the publishers feel the need to "translate" the books for the US? We speak the same language! I would hope US readers could figure out any minor differences in connotation or slang! :)
Look how many problems having different versions causes in our discussions on the forums. It's like Elizabeth trying to unite the churches, or something.
I think that "obstacle/curse" works better, because people just don't talk about murdering each other, at least not using the term "murder"... especially in the US, for which it was changed, apparently! As for whom the quote actually refers, we may never know for sure.

honestly, I can't blame you. THere are words that may have different meanings in slang terms depending on what side of the pond you're from! Why assume Americans wouldn't know what the Philosophers Stone was and change it instead to the Sorcers Stone, absolutley pointless in my view.....that is another one which crops in in ootp where Neville calls it the philological stone in the European edition and the Sorcerous Stone in the American (yup I have both first editions how sad am I?!)....course Hermionie corrects him with the correct word.

I'd never noticed that owl at all...funny how the small things like that add up, the detail becomes critical, I think thats why none of us can predict with any degree of accuracy whats going to happen next!

Liselle

edit: Ironic then isn't it that philology is the study of language, especially in a philosophical manner and as a science; the investigation of the laws of human speech, the relation of different tongues to one another, and historical development of languages; linguistic science.

Note: Philology comprehends a knowledge of the etymology, or origin and combination of words; grammar, the construction of sentences, or use of words in language; criticism, the interpretation of authors, the affinities of different languages, and whatever relates to the history or present state of languages. It sometimes includes rhetoric, poetry, history, and antiquities.

whizbang121

January 11th, 2004, 3:38 pm

So there's a clue in British editions that doesn't appear in the American? JKR sure does use words carefully and deliberately.

Anything we can make of sorcerous?

So if the word in question should be "curse" then it's probable that it refers to putting Crouch Sr under the Imperious. But "murder" or "death" is confusing the issue.

purplehawk

January 11th, 2004, 3:40 pm

Apparently because he can vanish into thin air with DEs after him and not even cause a ripple. Our last visual is of him fleeing, running for his life from the impending storm--except, the storm never breaks. It could just be trying to keep the deaths to a minimum but it appears that Karkaroff has managed to completely elude the DEs with no resources but his own power and wits for an entire year.

Yeah... right, but he's not the only character missing in action in OotP. Ludo Bagman also disappeared into thin air and half the Goblin world is looking for him. Wormtail and that silver hand of his also vanished in OotP. I still half-think Wormtail is impersonating Percy Weasley.

Whiz, what clue? I'm getting lost here.

Edit: So if the word in question should be "curse" then it's probable that it refers to putting Crouch Sr under the Imperious. But "murder" or "death" is confusing the issue.

It could also refer to Alastor Moody, though, as he was also placed under the Imperious and packed away in his trunk.

Liselle

January 11th, 2004, 3:44 pm

So there's a clue in British editions that doesn't appear in the American? JKR sure does use words carefully and deliberately.

I'm not sure if its a clue at all. it could just be a circumstance of editing and its my guess thats what it more than likely is.

As for the missing characters in ootp there's quite a few:
the bloody baron is missing, moaning myrtle is gone and Winky's not around either....I'm not sure though if these are actually part of the plot or just that they had no part to play.....although Winky makes me suspicious as she knows an awful lot about Ministry workings and about Bagman too....

purplehawk

January 11th, 2004, 3:48 pm

Liselle

January 11th, 2004, 3:51 pm

Winky is at least mentioned, though. Dobby told Harry he had used the Room of Requirement as a place for her to sleep off a Butterbeer binge.

Ludo Bagman is mentioned at Harry's hearing.

I'm drawing a blank on Karkaroff.

yup you're right...I ment missing in the sense that we don't actually see them. Karkaroff is missing from the action and is not spoken about either. Which is strange, you'd think a headmaster of one of the three largest magic schools being missing would be spoken about given the relatively small size of the wizarding community. Which makes me wonder, maybe he was got to after the graveyard scene and is not missing at all, maybe he has been punished already and is living with what ever punishment that is.

Liselle

purplehawk

January 11th, 2004, 3:57 pm

Liselle

January 11th, 2004, 4:02 pm

Or he is dead with whatever punishment they meted out. Maybe they fed him to Nagini.

I think the most critical absence has to be Wormtail. None of the other MIAs come even close to his impact on the overall plot.

well if they fed him to Nagini...then Nagini was poisoned by him as she's missing too!

I agree with you on wormtail alright, his absence screams PLOT, the impersonating Percy is possible as he was his pet for a very long time and would know the Weasley family inside out. COnveient though that Scabbers was given to Ron day one though wasn't it.....he really was trying to get to Harry all the time. Where is wormtail though...he was missing all the big actions sequences like the Ministry of Magic.....course he could be hiding in plain sight.....

whizbang121

January 11th, 2004, 4:08 pm

Yeah... right, but he's not the only character missing in action in OotP. Ludo Bagman also disappeared into thin air and half the Goblin world is looking for him. Wormtail and that silver hand of his also vanished in OotP. I still half-think Wormtail is impersonating Percy Weasley.

I thought we were talking about characters who were killed or went missing to clear the way for Voldemort to get Harry into the graveyard in GoF?!

Liselle

January 11th, 2004, 4:14 pm

I thought we were talking about characters who were killed or went missing to clear the way for Voldemort to get Harry into the graveyard in GoF?!

Indeed we were put we kind of found a slightly different one! sorry I think I was the cause of that!!!

purplehawk

January 11th, 2004, 4:32 pm

I thought we were talking about characters who were killed or went missing to clear the way for Voldemort to get Harry into the graveyard in GoF?!

Then how on earth did Karkaroff get into this conversation? Karkaroff, like Bagman, ran to save his own neck.

Vigilance

January 11th, 2004, 4:49 pm

Perhaps they both left Albion. JKR doesn't seem to give a lot of attention to what happens outside the realm.

I think Karkaroff is a non sequitur. The Percy-Peter theory does seem interesting, though there's really no clue to suggest it (if you think Percy isn't behaving differently from his character as laid out in GoF). IMO, he's always been an a$$-kissing prat. That doesn't mean that JKR doesn't intend for us to be asking the crucial question, where's Peter? She reminds us of him, sitting between Lily and James in the photo, for a reason.

It would be a let down for her to pull the same trick with Percy as she did with Moody--and, I might add, that Percy's alienation from his family actually limits his capabilities as a spy. Personally, i liked the idea that people in Gryffindor aren't always heroic and altruistic, that they were also ambitious, and potentially took up the wrong causes. Percy has demonstrated that he's impressed by authority. He's basically just demonstrating a belief in the system. we know it's corrupt, but Percy doesn't want to believe it. That's how he makes sense to me anyway, at this juncture. If he smelled like cabbage, though... :evil:

whizbang121

January 11th, 2004, 5:30 pm

I think Karkaroff is a non sequitur. The Percy-Peter theory does seem interesting, though there's really no clue to suggest it (if you think Percy isn't behaving differently from his character as laid out in GoF). IMO, he's always been an a$$-kissing prat. That doesn't mean that JKR doesn't intend for us to be asking the crucial question, where's Peter? She reminds us of him, sitting between Lily and James in the photo, for a reason.
I have to agree. Percy isn't acting out of character. That said, Ron did get scabbers from Percy.

jordmundt6

January 11th, 2004, 5:34 pm

Karkaroff is a loose end. He'll probably get tied up in Book 6. Ludo is absurd in himself but he could have a very telling effect on inter-species relations during the war. Remember Bill's report? A few of the goblin leaders are incensed about the Bagman scandal and the cover-up that appears to have been generated by the Ministry to keep things quiet. If this remains a bone of contention between wizards and goblins it will make alliances hard to form and any alliance that is formed will be very shaky. That could actually have a huge long-term impact for the war itself and the postwar world (rather akin to the centaur tribe's expulsion of Firenze). Nagini was indirectly mentioned by Ron once--I think. She or her mate may have been the vessel that Voldemort chose for his ill-fated Christmas raid on the Department of Mysteries.

Vigilance

January 11th, 2004, 5:57 pm

Right you are! I always assumed the snake that attacked Arthur was Nagini. I don't think Harry would recognize her as his vessel, though I suppose others might argue that he would have known her immediately and identified her to the others...

purplehawk

January 11th, 2004, 5:59 pm

Hi Jord. You bring up a host of loose ends there. And Bagman was mentioned at least once in OotP, unlike Karkaroff. As for Percy, it's easy to say he's acting as we might expect a pompous kid who is overly fond of himself to act... but I still don't buy that interpretation. Percy is/was Molly's pet and the son who tried hardest to impress Arthur. I believed the company line until I read he had slammed the door of his flat in Molly's face. I don't believe Percy would have done that, no matter how ticked off he was with Arthur, Dumbledore, and the Order. It just doesn't fit his personality, his security base.

What does fit, IMO, is a plan by Voldemort to use Wormtail and his knowledge of the Weasleys to become a highly convincing Percy... a Percy who may well have been recommended by Lucius Malfoy for his promotion into Fudge's inner circle.

jordmundt6

January 11th, 2004, 6:19 pm

He was Molly's pet because he was "Perfect Percy." But He wasn't close with Arthur. Remember, as soon as he got a job, Crouch became his idol and his new gods became advancement and efficiency--two things absolutely foreign to Arthur. Though his conduct is shocking, it shouldn't come as that much of a surprise. The pomposity with which Percy speaks and writes is his own, I don't know that Pettigrew could ever learn to copy it reflexively, no matter how well he knew Percy or how much he practiced. As for the Lucius recommendation--even if the highly evolved plot you're describing were true that couldn't be done. Lucius' detestation of all things Weasley is too well known for his personal recommendation not to raise all kinds of red flags with Arthur, Arthur's coworkers, the family in general, and Fudge himself. Furthermore, Lucius has Fudge far enough under his thumb that although well-placed spies in the Ministry exist and are vital, they aren't necessary to keep tabs on Fudge. And Fudge's personal assistant would really only interact with Fudge himself. Also, slamming the door in Molly's face sounds exactly like Percy to me. He knew that both of his parents were in the Order. Furthermore, Molly didn't intercede for him when Arthur belittled him. If nothing else, it's quite possible he felt betrayed. And we know that Percy has his mother's capacity for carrying grudges.

Edit: Vigilance--As for Nagini, how could Harry have identified her from inside her body?

whizbang121

January 11th, 2004, 6:25 pm

though I suppose others might argue that he would have known her immediately and identified her to the others...

It could have been a problem for him, though. He wasn't looking at the snake from the outside. He was the snake, or in the snake. That might have been a factor in Harry's not recognising Nagini.

As for Percy, it's easy to say he's acting as we might expect a pompous kid who is overly fond of himself to act... but I still don't buy that interpretation. Percy is/was Molly's pet and the son who tried hardest to impress Arthur. He was Molly's pet because she defended him from his brothers. Not because he was particularly nice to her. As for his father, I think he found Arthur's position and situation at the ministry embarassing. It doesn't seem at all surprising that once he felt secure at the ministry himself, he would reject them and all they stood for. I believed the company line until I read he had slammed the door of his flat in Molly's face. I don't believe Percy would have done that, no matter how ticked off he was with Arthur, Dumbledore, and the Order. It just doesn't fit his personality, his security base.
Well, obviously, it's a matter of opinion. But it didn't surprise me at all. Molly defended him because she knew he was the different one. He was always going to be the one to balk and she knew it. Everything she did was an attempt to head off the inevidible. She always knew it would come to that. She just thought that if she tried harder, made more of a fuss over him, pandered to his ego, maybe, maybe ..... he would change.
What does fit, IMO, is a plan by Voldemort to use Wormtail and his knowledge of the Weasleys to become a highly convincing Percy... a Percy who may well have been recommended by Lucius Malfoy for his promotion into Fudge's inner circle.
Just have to wait that one out, too. :rolleyes:Back to the Headbangers' Ball.

Remember a while back there was some news story about the first draft being done in January? Wonder if it happened.

Masterfroggy

January 11th, 2004, 8:43 pm

honestly, I can't blame you. THere are words that may have different meanings in slang terms depending on what side of the pond you're from! Why assume Americans wouldn't know what the Philosophers Stone was and change it instead to the Sorcers Stone, absolutley pointless in my view.....that is another one which crops in in ootp where Neville calls it the philological stone in the European edition and the Sorcerous Stone in the American (yup I have both first editions how sad am I?!)....course Hermionie corrects him with the correct word.

.

The title change was a suggestion by the American publishers, and not because they thought that the Americans would not understand the title the Philosophers Stone, but because they thought people might be put off buying the book, as from the title it might come across as a book about philosophy.

purplehawk

January 11th, 2004, 8:50 pm

No one likes the Percy-is-Wormtail theory, but it makes a load of sense to me. Wormtail's absence is striking for starters and remains unexplained. Somebody had to recommend Percy for that promotion into Fudge's office, or put in a good word for him. Think about it a moment... Percy should have been fired after the fiasco with Crouch Senior. I bet he expected to be fired when he was called into Fudge's office after the TriWizard ended.

I personally like Percy least of all the Weasley kids and I expect most everyone of us does - but, to me, it's too much of a stretch for him to do such a 180 and rebuke his parents so thoroughly. Moving out of their house would be a great way to hide the making of polyjuice potion from a likely-to-swiftly be-on-the-scent Molly. And where, pray tell, would they be able to hide the real Percy in the Weasley house, cramped as it is?

There was also something about "the speed of his note-taking" mentioned in Dumbledore's office as Percy scribed the meeting when the D.A. was discovered. He was transcribing so rapidly his nose was spattered with ink, if I remember it correctly. Is that normal? Would a specially-made hand help that along a bit?

barmy codger

January 11th, 2004, 8:54 pm

I read somewhere that there are constant revisions of the Harry Potter books going on with each edition. Some of this is the necessary result of correcting inevitable errors, especially inevitable considering the length and complexity of the story. But to change wording to accommodate the supposed tastes of different market segments seems inexcusable to me. It wouldn't matter so much if these books were just a casual read, but Ms. Rowling invites close reading with attention to detail. This means the text should be presented with great accuracy, and I feel we have been let down.

So, I gather, then that the use of the words murder in book 4 are mistakes. There are no missing corpses to be accounted for. Pettigrew did not seem to be passing himself off as Percy at the time, because he was cowering and being cursed by Voldemort for his blunders. I suppose he makes a distinctive rat now, with his silver foot.

If, all the same, Percy has been replaced by Wormtail, then Percy is probably still alive. But maybe not. Crouch Jr, under Veritaserum, said he kept Moody alive for two reasons: to get information from him and to have a supply of his hair for the Polyjuice potion. I always wondered why a bunch of hair lopped off all at once wouldn't have served as a long term stash. If Wormtail is already familiar with Weasley ways, there is no real need to keep Percy alive if one has had the foresight to cut off and save all his hair. But this all seems unnecessary. First of all, we have no missing person to account for, which is why I suspected foul play with Percy in the first place. Second, the Imperius curse is enough to give Voldemort the control he needs over Percy. Percy is not in the protected confines of Hogwarts, as Moody/Crouch was. He is easily accessible for information and updating the Imperius Curse when needed. Wormtail could simply be lodging with Percy in London.

By the way, I've asked this in another thread, but while it's on my mind, what happened to the Order of the Phoenix member who was on guard at the Ministry of Magic on the night Harry et. al. went to rescue Sirius? Is it wrong to assume that's where the guard duty was?

purplehawk

January 11th, 2004, 9:34 pm

If, all the same, Percy has been replaced by Wormtail, then Percy is probably still alive. But maybe not. Crouch Jr, under Veritaserum, said he kept Moody alive for two reasons: to get information from him and to have a supply of his hair for the Polyjuice potion. I always wondered why a bunch of hair lopped off all at once wouldn't have served as a long term stash. If Wormtail is already familiar with Weasley ways, there is no real need to keep Percy alive if one has had the foresight to cut off and save all his hair. But this all seems unnecessary. First of all, we have no missing person to account for, which is why I suspected foul play with Percy in the first place. Second, the Imperius curse is enough to give Voldemort the control he needs over Percy. Percy is not in the protected confines of Hogwarts, as Moody/Crouch was. He is easily accessible for information and updating the Imperius Curse when needed. Wormtail could simply be lodging with Percy in London.

That's what I think is happening - and it's also the reason "Percy" slammed the door in his mother's face. I don't care how egocentric Percy may have become, Percy would not have done that IMO.

By the way, I've asked this in another thread, but while it's on my mind, what happened to the Order of the Phoenix member who was on guard at the Ministry of Magic on the night Harry et. al. went to rescue Sirius? Is it wrong to assume that's where the guard duty was?

Barmy, I've asked that question at least twice. I think we have to assume there is a mole within the Order, or the Death Eaters disposed of a member of the Order that night. Someone other than Kingsley, Mad Eye, Tonks, Sirius, and Lupin was on duty that night. We know it wasn't Molly or Arthur. We would have heard about them. The names Malfoy rattled off: Nott, Jugson, Bellatrix, Rodolphus, Crabbe, Rabastan, Dolohov, Macnair, Avery, Rookwood, and Mulciber are not familiar to me as members of the Order. Bellatrix, Rodolphus and Rabastan are all LeStrange. Odd they're the only ones referred by their given names. They certainly don't match the names of any Order members.

jordmundt6

January 12th, 2004, 1:00 am

Could have been any number of things to remove that Order member. My guess is that whatever completely cleared the Ministry cleared the guard. Of course if the guard was Dung, maybe all he needed was the promise of another dodgy deal. I'd say Dung, galavanting for some criminal purpose is our most likely candidate for "guard duty" that night.

januarystars

January 12th, 2004, 1:14 am

Of course if the guard was Dung, maybe all he needed was the promise of another dodgy deal. I'd say Dung, galavanting for some criminal purpose is our most likely candidate for "guard duty" that night.
As often as that question has come up, that's the best answer I've heard so far.:tu:

purplehawk

January 12th, 2004, 2:02 am

Good one, Jordan! Have another :tu: on me. Dung wasn't around at headquarters when Snape got word to them that Harry was off to the Ministry, but then again neither were Hestia, Emmeline, or others we've heard mentioned as members. My money would be on Dung, though.

Edit: Last minute second-guess... the Death Eaters were aware of the guards, though. Voldemort had already encountered Arthur Weasley and it appears that Malfoy had slapped the Imperious curse on Sturgis Podmore. Maybe the Death Eaters really took out the guard. :lol: Just covering all the bases.

barmy codger

January 12th, 2004, 2:14 am

Sorry to take everyone over old ground. I saw nothing over in the thread about getting into the Ministry of Magic.

Using a ruse to get rid of Mundungus sounds good from a practical angle, but psychologically it sounds too humane for Death Eater thinking. Divert him with a subterfuge, or kill him outright? And how would they know about his sidelines? I think an irresponsible person like Mundungus had to be part of the scene in order for the dementor attack to happen, and that was his main use as a character. If they trusted him for guard duty after that, and if he was on duty that night, then the Order brought some of the consequences onto themselves.

Vigilance

January 12th, 2004, 2:28 am

Exactly the point. I don't think Harry would have/ could have known he was inside Nagini.
Others might argue that he would be aware of relative size, etc. Nagini is obviously very large. Possibly, if he knew he was carried by a very large snake, he might have concluded that this snake was Nagini. He might have mentioned Nagini if he could sense how large the snake was.

Personally, I think that's a sketchy argument though. Harry doesn't use his brain all that often and has been demonstrably less-than-observant! :)

Again, I assumed that snake was our erstwhile Voldie-pet.

I agree that Dung has proven himself unreliable as guards go. Either he would be hyper-aware of the consequences of leaving his post and so not do it, or the Order wouldn't have given him the post to begin with.

purplehawk

January 12th, 2004, 2:31 am

True... but it's also entirely likely there's a dead Order member tucked away somewhere in the "bowels of the Ministry of Magic." Eric Munch, the watch-wizard is also unaccounted for.

whizbang121

January 12th, 2004, 2:41 am

All things considered, the fact that the DEs were already there waiting for Harry is a good indication that whatever guards there may have been were taken care of when the DEs got there. And once again, the guard was unable to alert the rest of the order to trouble. Sleeping again as Arthur had been? Maybe. But it hardly matters. I don't see why this is a problem.

Masterfroggy

January 12th, 2004, 2:53 am

I wondered what happened to him, when Harry when to his trial Eric was a bit slow in realising just whose wand he was weighing, even though Harry was stranding in front of him with his name badge pinned to his top, later on Eric is reading the paper, not the slightest interest in Harry or Arthur Weasley, and yet (at oh my god how early in the morning) he was awake enough to be patrolling the MoM, alert enough to catch Podmore, again why was he not at the desk (at least) on the night of the battle, was he bribed, drugged, or cursed, or is he to a person at whose motive we need to look more closely.

purplehawk

January 12th, 2004, 3:42 am

I've said I suspect he is a death eater, Frog. Of course, he could have been subdued by those we know to be death eaters, along with whatever other security detail that might have been working that night.

Those statues from the fountain that Dumbledore animated at the beginning of his duel with Voldemort? I wonder if that was a one-time conjuring of Dumbledore's, or do the house elf and goblin routinely go off to the fireplaces and notify aurors when there is a security issue. Maybe Dumbledore knew this and took advantage of it that night? Or was old Eric supposed to set off the alarm earlier and didn't - or couldn't?

Did anyone get any other ideas about security at the Ministry? I mean the voice in the telephone booth was still working that night and spitting out names with "rescue mission" on the badges. But what was supposed to happen, had all things been as they should have been, when a dozen death eaters broke into the place? Were there any restricted areas where apparation was forbidden?

whizbang121

January 12th, 2004, 5:13 am

I just discovered that the Percy = Wormatil is a galadriel waters suggestion. she seems to have people trying to prove or disprove it for her.

The nerve.

barmy codger

January 12th, 2004, 9:37 am

Those statues from the fountain that Dumbledore animated at the beginning of his duel with Voldemort? I wonder if that was a one-time conjuring of Dumbledore's, or do the house elf and goblin routinely go off to the fireplaces and notify aurors when there is a security issue. Maybe Dumbledore knew this and took advantage of it that night?
As a small start on your questions, I re-read some of The Only One He Ever Feared in book 5. The destruction of the fountain began with the contest between Bellatrix and Harry. If the elf and goblin were going to react to a security problem, it would be then, I think. Instead, they came alive at the same time Dumbledore animated the other figures.

Unfortunately, that is all I can establish. Some distracting ideas arose. The exchange between Voldemort and Dumbledore sounded like it was their first encounter, their first duel. Have you all been over this business already? It is remarkable if this is their first meeting after all that went on in the first war. It means Dumbledore did not aid the Longbottoms or the Potters when they defied the Dark Lord, which I thought he might have done.

What's disturbing is the strong impression I got this time that Voldemort, though he talks the talk, actually wants to be stopped. While he was possessed by Voldemort, Harry thought, "Let him kill us...End it, Dumbledore." But I don't remember Harry ever addressing him as Dumbledore. Perhaps it is something else that I should leave alone and read in the conventional way. But it almost sounds to me like that was Voldemort thinking along with Harry. Especially when this follows two lines where Voldemort, speaking through Harry, calls him Dumbledore.

Finally, to add to the confusion, I wonder if anyone has considered the doppelganger as the thing going on with Tom Riddle Jr and the Dark One? I have looked at various web references, but they don't suggest anything to me in this context, except that it is sometimes thought to be the spiritual negative counterpart of a person. Also known in Celtic lore as a fetch.

purplehawk

January 12th, 2004, 12:41 pm

I just discovered that the Percy = Wormatil is a galadriel waters suggestion. she seems to have people trying to prove or disprove it for her.

How do you know that, Whiz? I seem to remember pointing you to a post by a newbie suggesting Percy=Wormtail a few months back. You didn't much like the idea then. The newbie disappeared. Do you think it was Waters?

As a small start on your questions, I re-read some of The Only One He Ever Feared in book 5. The destruction of the fountain began with the contest between Bellatrix and Harry. If the elf and goblin were going to react to a security problem, it would be then, I think. Instead, they came alive at the same time Dumbledore animated the other figures.

Not necessarily. Not if there was a specific security signal or spell necessary to deploy them and Munch wasn't around to do so. I am certain the stone wizard who ran interference by way of protecting Harry was all Dumbledore's work... I can't imagine that was a part of any pre-designed plan of the Ministry.

The exchange between Voldemort and Dumbledore sounded like it was their first encounter, their first duel. Have you all been over this business already? It is remarkable if this is their first meeting after all that went on in the first war. It means Dumbledore did not aid the Longbottoms or the Potters when they defied the Dark Lord, which I thought he might have done.

If this has been covered elsewhere, it occurred in a thread I wasn't subscribed to. I don't think it means, necessarily, that Dumbledore did not aid the Potters or the Longbottoms - or any other members of the Order. What it could mean is this was the first one-on-one encounter between the two. Voldemort prefers to send others to engage his battles. Like all good generals, he stays behind the scenes until the battle is won - or, in this case, lost. The same is probably true of Dumbledore during the first war. He directed rather than acted himself.

I think the reason Voldemort apparated into the MoM that night was because he thought to make an end of Harry once and for all. Furious at the destruction of the prophecy, he again made a tactical error thinking he and Bellatrix would be able to take out this kid with ease. He did not expect Dumbledore to be there.

What's disturbing is the strong impression I got this time that Voldemort, though he talks the talk, actually wants to be stopped. While he was possessed by Voldemort, Harry thought, "Let him kill us...End it, Dumbledore." But I don't remember Harry ever addressing him as Dumbledore. Perhaps it is something else that I should leave alone and read in the conventional way. But it almost sounds to me like that was Voldemort thinking along with Harry. Especially when this follows two lines where Voldemort, speaking through Harry, calls him Dumbledore.

You know, I think you have a point here. Harry speaks of the headmaster as "Dumbledore" when talking to Ron and Hermione, but when speaking to Dumbledore he says "Professor Dumbledore" or "Sir."

I have no idea what a doppelganger is - and I hope someone will please explain it more thoroughly!

phoenixsong

January 12th, 2004, 7:02 pm

I have no idea what a doppelganger is - and I hope someone will please explain it more thoroughly!A doppelganger is a double. It can be your evil twin, or something like a shadow self. They liked it a lot in 19th Century literature.

But I don't know how Voldemort could be the doppelganger of Tom Riddle, because the crucial thing in all doppelganger stories is that, at some point, you see both the person and his/her doppelganger, that is what creates the creepy gothic feeling.

But I do like the idea of a doppelganger coming into the stories at some point. Maybe Percy has a doppelganger (Weatherby, anyone?).

Jessica

January 12th, 2004, 7:13 pm

I don't know about the doppelganger thing. It is supposed to be a children's story. Seems like it might be a little too complex for them.

I am open to the Somebody-is-Somebody-ELse-via-time-travel theories. I spent a lot of time looking at Dumbledore's full name to see if any cool anagrams popped up (Only character in the book I could spell was Remus Lupin and (implied charachter) Romulus Lupin).

barmy codger

January 12th, 2004, 7:33 pm

Not necessarily. Not if there was a specific security signal or spell necessary to deploy them and Munch wasn't around to do so.
There seems little point in doing it that way, but maybe you're right. I got the impression all that was Dumbledore's work, and a particularly nice display of his style in having the lowliest of the Wizarding world await Fudge's arrival, to escort him to the ruins which are the result of his folly. It also seems possible that Malfoy gained access to the Ministry by manipulating Fudge somehow. If Mundungus could be diverted by Deatheaters, then certainly Malfoy could do something with Fudge, seeing they were such pals.

The same is probably true of Dumbledore during the first war. He directed rather than acted himself.
I have no doubt Dumbledore has directed the fight against the Dark Lord all along. But I pointed out earlier (post 874) that it was remarkable that the Longbottoms and the Potters managed to escape Voldemort three times. Current Order of Phoenix members could barely deal with the Deatheaters in the Department of Mysteries. It seemed possible that Dumbledore had directly intervened to help Lonbottoms and Potters. After all, two of Harry's four escapes from Voldemort were directly assisted by Dumbledore, and one indirectly (CoS).
You know, I think you have a point here. Harry speaks of the headmaster as "Dumbledore" when talking to Ron and Hermione, but when speaking to Dumbledore he says "Professor Dumbledore" or "Sir."
Voldemort's will to fail also seemed evident in book 4 in the graveyard. It was very stupid of him to give Harry back his wand. But on this occasion it was probably the only way Ms. Rowling could get Harry out of that fix, and it couldn't be read mainly as Voldemort undermining himself. But giving Harry his wand was stupid.

sindatur

January 12th, 2004, 8:53 pm

In Regards to JKR's Reading at Albert HAll, she said that, that reading held clues to book 6. My understanding is that she was reading from "Career Advice" (CH 16 US?).

Anyone know specifically what she was reading, or if it's the whole Chapter? Anyone have any ideas as to what the clue is, she's referring to?

My hope is, that it's not "I'll help Potter become an Auror if it's the last thing I do" meaning that McGonagall will die in Book 6.

I wonder if she's an Occlumens and she'll be the one to take over Harry's Occlumency training, or Perhaps Harry didn't get an O in potions, and so McG will be teaching HArry Potions, so he can prepare for his NEWTs, since Prof Snape won't teach HArry Potions if he didn't achieve an O.

Angora

January 12th, 2004, 9:03 pm

See, we're back to the how did they escape thing... and defy doesn't really mean "escape". Oh well. I'll stop whining about it. :)

I remember reading the Ron Is Dumbledore theories and thinking it would make more sense if it was Percy, given that one of Dumbledore's middle names is Percival. I definitely don't think he really is Percy, but the "Percivial" thing is always niggling somewhere in the back of my mind.

I'll read over Career Advice again if I get the chance.

purplehawk

January 12th, 2004, 9:03 pm

I have no doubt Dumbledore has directed the fight against the Dark Lord all along. But I pointed out earlier (post 874) that it was remarkable that the Longbottoms and the Potters managed to escape Voldemort three times. Current Order of Phoenix members could barely deal with the Deatheaters in the Department of Mysteries. It seemed possible that Dumbledore had directly intervened to help Lonbottoms and Potters. After all, two of Harry's four escapes from Voldemort were directly assisted by Dumbledore, and one indirectly (CoS).

Okay, I see where you're going with this. Has anyone said the Longbottoms or the Potters escaped Voldemort without help arriving, as it always has in Harry's case? I find it hard to believe that somone - some help - wasn't available to them. If Harry's four escapes count, then surely their aided escapes would too.

Voldemort's will to fail also seemed evident in book 4 in the graveyard. It was very stupid of him to give Harry back his wand. But on this occasion it was probably the only way Ms. Rowling could get Harry out of that fix, and it couldn't be read mainly as Voldemort undermining himself. But giving Harry his wand was stupid.

I think the cemetery was more a case of Voldemort's overweening pride getting the better of him. To some extent, pride was an issue in his appearance at the Ministry in OotP. In the cemetery, however, he had something to prove to his minions, the death eaters, and killing Harry in a straight-up duel would (to his distorted mind) "prove my power by killing him here and now, in front of you all, where there is no Dumbledore to help him, and no mother to die for him. I will give him his chance. He will be allowed to fight, and you will be left in no doubt which of us is the stronger..." That's a direct quote.

Edit to Angora: I think they can be used interchangeably. Harry defied Voldemort in GoF - defied Voldemort's plan to kill him and make a big show of it for the death eaters - and he also escaped. The same is true in denying Voldemort the sorcerer's stone and the prophecy, denying being synonymous with defying Voldemort's plans to obtain those things. Dumbledore describes Harry's experiences with Voldemort as escapes and mentions Harry's four escapes exceeds anything his parents, or Neville's parents, ever achieved.

Sabine

January 12th, 2004, 9:07 pm

Description: In the section read by JK Rowling, Harry says he would like to work as an Aura with the Ministry of Magic when he leaves Hogwarts.

Professor McGonagall points out that the Ministry of Magic only take on the very best and are so strict that they hadn?t even taken anyone in the ?past 3 years?.

The Professor sets out the challenges sternly and identifies exactly what subjects Harry will need to study for this final two years. He?ll need ?a minimum of 5 NEWTs,? and nothing under ?exceeds expectation? grades in everything. After that it will all be about ?character and aptitude?.

However, it is clear Harry will have to study very hard just to be accepted into the classes even at Hogwarts itself! Defence Against The Dark Arts, Transfiguration, OWLs, Charms and Potions all set very high entry requirements.

During the meeting tension rises as Prof Umbridge interrupts Prof McGonagall again and again to undermine Harry?s confidence, pointing up how unlikely Harry will ever have good enough grades.

The Professors disagree and an argument breaks out over Dumbledore! It is clear Harry has many, many obstacles to overcome?

Sabine

Vigilance

January 12th, 2004, 9:30 pm

hmmm...so maybe JKR means to clue us in to the idea that Harry won't make it as an Auror? Maybe he'll teach, instead!

barmy codger

January 12th, 2004, 9:41 pm

Okay, I see where you're going with this. Has anyone said the Longbottoms or the Potters escaped Voldemort without help arriving, as it always has in Harry's case? I find it hard to believe that somone - some help - wasn't available to them. If Harry's four escapes count, then surely their aided escapes would too.

Then, my later point being that if Dumbledore confronted Voldemort for the first time at end of book 5, he is not likely to have aided directly the Longbottoms or Potters earlier. They seemed to have defied Voldemort on their own, which is saying a lot for them.

I have never liked Harry's goal to be an Auror. If he gets rid of Voldemort, there will be a lot of Aurors with little to do. I think Harry would do the most good as a teacher.

purplehawk

January 12th, 2004, 9:50 pm

It almost seems that whatever profession Harry chooses, he will be at least a de facto auror until Voldemort is dead. And maybe he'll be following in his parents' footsteps after all... maybe James or Lily was a teacher at Hogwarts. There has to be some kind of tie into Harry's career pursuits and the reason we haven't learned what his parents did for a living.

Barmy, I'm not sure I buy the idea Voldemort and Dumbledore haven't met in battle before. Dumbledore has been repeatedly identified as "the only one he ever feared." There is a chapter by that name in OotP. If they never came wand-to-wand, how could Voldemort fear Dumbledore above all other wizards?

Sabine

January 12th, 2004, 9:51 pm

This is a bit complicated .... are we talking four different subjects in one go?

Percy
defy
Voldemort - Dumbledore
Career advices

I already feel like brain-dead :sigh:

defy: There was something what I wanted clarify with Vigilance - but I can't remember it right now....

Voldemort - Dumbledore: I was not under the impression that they met for the first time. On the contrary - to me it seemed they knew each other well. I doubt that Dumbledore, if he always would have directed his "troops" in the first war, would be someone voldemort "feared the most"! I think this must have another very good reason, not just Dumledores reputation.

Percy: There is definitely something "fishy" going on with Percy. I just can't decide what I like less... Percy being controlled, Percy = Peter, or Percy the secret spy for the Order. :sigh:

Maybe this is because I think it is high time for some of the "lion-hearted" Gryffindors to turn out being "not so perfect" .... to get rid of some of the "left over" prejudices.

Career advices: another :sigh: ... Frankly I didn't like the statement of McGonagall ... but I never came to the conclusion that she would die :wow:

I think I have to read that chapter again

Sabine

edit:

Barmy, I'm not sure I buy the idea Voldemort and Dumbledore haven't met in battle before. Dumbledore has been repeatedly identified as "the only one he ever feared." There is a chapter by that name in OotP. If they never came wand-to-wand, how could Voldemort fear Dumbledore above all other wizards?

:lol: lets shake hands on this one purplehawk :lol:

barmy codger

January 12th, 2004, 10:53 pm

Barmy, I'm not sure I buy the idea Voldemort and Dumbledore haven't met in battle before. Dumbledore has been repeatedly identified as "the only one he ever feared." There is a chapter by that name in OotP. If they never came wand-to-wand, how could Voldemort fear Dumbledore above all other wizards?
Sometimes I don't know whether or not to mention some item, because I figure everyone has hashed it out before. So I passed on mentioning this. I guessed the most likely reason is that Dumbledore defeated Grindelwald. Some speculate Grindelwald was Tom Ridde's mentor. The chronology is about right for it.

Things that show Voldemort fears Dumbledore:

We have a chapter title itself making the point that this is what Voldemort is bringing to the encounter. Bellatrix's warned him about Dumbledore being there. His reaction on discovering that Dumbledore is there does not sound like remarks made out of confidence. One might even think that if he knew Dumbledore would be there, Voldemort would have stayed away.

Things that show they may not have met before:

Voldemort said to Dumbledore, "By which time I shall be gone and you dead!" If they had met before, why didn't Voldemort kill him before? If he knew he couldn't kill Dumbledore, why did he continue? Why not just leave? "You do not seek to kill me, Dumbledore? Above such brutality are you?" Sounds like a newly discovered quality, something Voldemort didn't know before. Has Dumbledore changed tactics since previous encounters, or have there been no previous encounters? Also, duel in book 5 ended in stalemate. Yes, Voldemort didn't kill Dumbledore. That's something. But after this, will Voldemort harbour the same fears of Dumbledore that he held previously? If he went away with less reason to fear Dumbledore, then any previous encounter would have reduced his fear in a similar way.

Put in another way, if Voldemort had duelled Dumbledore before, he would have known that he doesn't have so much to fear. I think his fear was not based on direct experience.

Finally, there are no melodramatic remarks from either one about previous encounters. "So, we meet again, Dumbledore?" "Sticking your crooked nose into it once more, eh?" (Pardon the Canadianism)

Jessica

January 12th, 2004, 11:00 pm

Put in another way, if Voldemort had duelled Dumbledore before, he would have known that he doesn't have so much to fear. I think his fear was not based on direct experience.

That scene reminded me so strongly of the scene in Sword in the Stone where the two wizards duel. I get the impression in both scenes that the two wizards have met so often that they understand the "game" they are playing with each other but so powerful that they still have the ability to surprise each other.

Just my personal opinion :)

Vigilance

January 12th, 2004, 11:36 pm

Are we sure Voldie knows DD can't kill him? I thought that was part of the prophecy he didn't get to hear...enlighten me, purplehawk! You have the odious thing memorized! :tu:

Jessica

January 12th, 2004, 11:38 pm

"And either must die at the hand of the other
For neither can live while the other survives"

But you're right, that's the second half so Voldie doesn't know about it.

barmy codger

January 12th, 2004, 11:43 pm

Are we sure Voldie knows DD can't kill him? I thought that was part of the prophecy he didn't get to hear...enlighten me, purplehawk! You have the odious thing memorized! :tu:

That's sort of my point. If they had met before and Dumbeldore could kill him, he'd be dead by now.

Vigilance

January 12th, 2004, 11:43 pm

jessica--
That's what I thought. Just because DD hasn't killed him yet doesn't mean DD hasn't hurt him or foiled his plans severely. Also, as a former pupil, he might have a psychological reticence. I can't imagine Voldie practicing full disclosure of all he knows, even if he were a teacher. He may think DD has some tricks up his sleeve, see DD as the master and himself as the usurping apprentice.
barmy--
I don't think that Voldie would assume DD can't kill him. Voldie probably thinks he's been lucky or that he hasn't made a major mistake yet. Or, possibly he believes DD can only harm him, but most people avoid being hurt when they can and fear those that can hurt them.

Jessica

January 12th, 2004, 11:49 pm

That's sort of my point. If they had met before and Dumbeldore could kill him, he'd be dead by now.

I don't really agree with this. Voldemort (in theory) can kill Dumbledore. At least as far as we know there's no prophesy saying otherwise. And yet when they meet in OotP, Dumbledore emerges alive.

Does this mean that Voldemort is incapable of killing Dumbledore. In my opinion, no.

purplehawk

January 13th, 2004, 1:15 am

If Voldemort cannot kill Dumbledore, it would only be because Dumbledore has the greater depth, skill and/or overall power, and a far better knowledge of his opponent... which, I think, might be close to the truth. It is prophecized, however, that Voldemort will die at the hand of the one born with the power to vanquish him - and that person is not Albus Dumbledore.

And there is the little monkey wrench Dumbledore threw into the mix himself in response to Harry's first question after hearing the prophecy.

"Professor Dumbledore?" Harry said very quietly, for Dumbledore, still staring at the Pensieve, seemed completely lost in thought. "It... did that mean... What did that mean?"

"It meant," said Dumbledore, "that the person who has the only chance of conquering Lord Voldemort for good was born at the end of July, nearly sixteen years ago... " Emphasis mine.

I have always interpreted this to mean Voldemort can perhaps be defeated by someone other than Harry - Dumbledore being the most likely candidate - but that Harry is the only wizard who can take him out permanently... as in forever and always; he can't come back from some hidey hole in Albania.

whizbang121

January 13th, 2004, 1:23 am

Well, first of all, a pureblood if James was pureblood, marrying a muggleborn, if Lily was muggleborn might have been construed as an act of defiance towards Voldemort. And I must agree that defy and escape are two entirely different things.

As for Voldemort and Dumbledore having met before, Dumbledore mentions that they have differing opinions on death and what may be worse than death. Also, it's possible that two skilled occlumens/legilimens may have had encounters in the past, in other landscapes. Perhaps, Dumbledore's skill was Voldemort's incentive.

Now add to this mix the tale told by Petunia of an awful boy telling her about Azkaban and its guards.

Vigilance

January 13th, 2004, 1:40 am

Hey--could you elaborate a bit there, whiz? I don't follow...I do like the idea of their battle being fought on a mental plane, though.

purplehawk--I totally agree. It makes sense that Voldemort can be marginally defeated. Think of pitched battle, for example, where one can lose the battle or even the war without dying. Life isn't the only thing at stake for Voldie when he wages war here, but a way of life (a privileging way of life that denies freedom and respect to others, but a way of life all the same). He can be defeated, and he can fear those defeats and the man responsible for them without necessarily fearing death from that quarter. We need to constantly remind ourselves that even big baddies do things for specific (probably self-serving) reasons. Voldie and Lucius want power--the power to live as they see fit, accountable only to those they feel are worthy and equal to them. That's what is at stake. Neither would risk their lives in the first place if they were only concerned about dying, only feared mortality.

whizbang121

January 13th, 2004, 1:54 am

I don't really agree with this. Voldemort (in theory) can kill Dumbledore. At least as far as we know there's no prophesy saying otherwise. And yet when they meet in OotP, Dumbledore emerges alive.

Does this mean that Voldemort is incapable of killing Dumbledore. In my opinion, no.

As you point out, we don't know what, if anything, can kill Dumbledore. Perhaps only Grindelwald could have stopped him. And remember who his mentor was.

Like Harry, Dumbledore isn't afraid of death. His fear was that Voldemort would discover that the relationship between himself and Harry was more than headmaster and student. :huh:

barmy codger

January 13th, 2004, 2:46 am

As you point out, we don't what, if anything, can kill Dumbledore.

It would seem a Killing Curse could kill him. He spent a lot of effort blocking them. Unless you're thinking he has tried Voldemort's paths to immortality.

whizbang121

January 13th, 2004, 2:48 am

Voldemort's paths?! Bite your tongue! ;)

Who is/was Dumbledore's mentor?

barmy codger

January 13th, 2004, 3:35 am

I don't really agree with this. Voldemort (in theory) can kill Dumbledore. At least as far as we know there's no prophesy saying otherwise. And yet when they meet in OotP, Dumbledore emerges alive.

Does this mean that Voldemort is incapable of killing Dumbledore. In my opinion, no.

You're right about that, so I won't belabour the issue. I just wonder what happens if the struggle runs on long enough. Fawkes has just his one trick, and soon all the obstacles at hand are rubble.

First guess for Dumbledore's mentor is Ron. No, wait, he is Dumbledore. Maybe Griselda Marchbanks knows. She's been around long enough. My second guess is that the mentor is/was a member of the true Order of the Phoenix. I always feel shortchanged by the one in book 5. James Potter's grandfather, maybe?

whizbang121

January 13th, 2004, 4:00 am

So I'm not the only one who reads hp4gu? :huh:

Barbara Kennedy

January 13th, 2004, 4:05 am

Voldemort's paths?! Bite your tongue! ;)

Who is/was Dumbledore's mentor?
I just asked about the same question in the thread about who all knows Occlumency besides Snape and Dumbledore.

He had to learn it all from someone. We may never really find out who it was in particular.

purplehawk

January 13th, 2004, 4:10 am

Will someone please explain where you folks are taking this thread? I'm completely lost. Clueless.

whizbang121

January 13th, 2004, 4:47 am

Nicolas Flamel

purplehawk

January 13th, 2004, 5:26 am

I remember him. He worked with Dumbledore on the elixir of life and the twelve uses of dragon's blood. So he's Dumbledore's mentor. But what exactly does he have to do with whether or not Dumbledore can or can't defeat Voldemort, or vice versa?

I think Dumbledore could possibly defeat Voldemort, but it would not be a final victory, kind of like in LOTR where the armies of Gondor and Rohan and Arnor, allied with the High Elves of Noldorin kin, beat the socks off Sauron and his armies in the Last Alliance... but Sauron came back. As long as the One Ring survived, Sauron could always come back.

Taking this a step further... is there one something that keeps the Dark Lord in existence? Something Harry will have to find? Maybe not even an object but something within the Dark Lord??? Something that perhaps remains hidden within the Chamber of Secrets?

barmy codger

January 13th, 2004, 5:29 am

Will someone please explain where you folks are taking this thread? I'm completely lost. Clueless.
Why is that a problem? I don't let it slow me down, obviously.

Nicolas Flamel. Wonderful. Were you saving that, or did you just think of it?

whizbang121

January 13th, 2004, 5:39 am

Wasn't it common knowledge?
Alchemy thread, maybe. Anyway. Flamel was a real person and an alchemist. He was believed to have succeeded in producing a philosopher's stone. You can read about him online.

Dumbledore worked with him despite the 500 year age difference.

Dumbledore tells Harry that Flamel has enough elixor to put his affairs in order. As we don't know what Flamel's affairs are, we can't be sure he isn't still alive. Perhaps seeing the last ancestor/descendant vanquished is part of settling his affairs. We don't know.

But as Flamel is accepted in these stories to have produced the philosopher's stone my guess is that he guided Dumbledore through the seven steps of alchemy to reach the same result. Point is this, Flamel's stone may have been destroyed. But was it the only one of its kind? And what are the other eleven uses of dragon's blood?

Lots of reasons for Voldemort to fear Dumbledore.

Vigilance

January 13th, 2004, 6:11 am

Do you think maybe DD could defeat Voldie--but he won't, as fate would have it? Or, do you read the "one" as the one, rather than just a pronoun indicating "which one?" Does that make sense? :no:

Sabine

January 13th, 2004, 2:14 pm

That's sort of my point. If they had met before and Dumbeldore could kill him, he'd be dead by now.

But I don't think Dumbledore would kill him. Capture him yes - give him to the ministry yes - but kill him no. I don't think Dumbledore would do this.

As you point out, we don't know what, if anything, can kill Dumbledore. Perhaps only Grindelwald could have stopped him. And remember who his mentor was.

Like Harry, Dumbledore isn't afraid of death. His fear was that Voldemort would discover that the relationship between himself and Harry was more than headmaster and student. :huh:

I think we should be a little bit careful with that: "remember who his mentor was"-thing ... we don't know for sure who his mentor was, we can only assume that.

Seems that I have to look up some detailed explanation of the word "mentor" for me :rolleyes: :rolleyes: . Sure Flamel is some educated guess, but nothing more.

But as Flamel is accepted in these stories to have produced the philosopher's stone my guess is that he guided Dumbledore through the seven steps of alchemy to reach the same result. Point is this, Flamel's stone may have been destroyed. But was it the only one of its kind? And what are the other eleven uses of dragon's blood?

I too do love the theory with the seven steps of alchemy, but it is after all, only just a theory. Aren't you mixing this up a bit? We don't know if in JKR's magical world if you have to go through those seven steps of alchemy to be able to make that stone.

I don't know - maybe I just am confused at the speed this is going ...

I am also not so sure if there has to be some "personal grudge" from Voldemort against James and Lily...

Maybe I am bothering to much lately with the question if Voldemort was some "local problem" or indeed some for the "whole wizarding-world". It seems to be tied down to England so much. With just some minor "detours" to Albania and - if Grindelwald can be counted in - to Germany. But most of all takes place in England - that seems weird to me.

Sabine

Vigilance

January 13th, 2004, 3:13 pm

It would be interesting to look at JKR's library. We don't know what subjects she's extensively researched, but it would be nice to know if she did have knowledge of alchemy and runes. Of course, if she knows nothing about the subjects, or next to nothing, then she likely isn't working from the premises of either. You're right, Sabine, they are just theories. Maybe in book 6 we can go into Hermione's rune class?

whizbang121

January 13th, 2004, 3:14 pm

That's the point of digging through the "layers." JKR has buried so much in these books: Latin incantations, egyptian, hindu, greek and roman names and mythologies, yoga, celtic and druidic traditions, wicca, aspects of astrology, numerology and the translations of ancient runes, european history and mythological creatures, sociology, psychology, Shakespeare. Even Alice in Wonderland references have been found, not to mention that the name Frank Longbottom is vaguely reminicent of L. Frank Baum, (author of the Wizard of Oz.). The seven steps of achemy reflect the seven books in the series. And that's just what I can think of off the top of my head. I know there's more.

None of this is coincidence. JKR has worked very hard at structuring these layers into the stories. As in yoga and alchemy, realization/illumination is the result of peeling back the layers like the skins of an onion. And this is how we discover Harry as he discovers himself. One layer at a time, his history and purpose are revealed to him, and to us.

Vigilance

January 13th, 2004, 3:32 pm

She's the product of her education, true. I don't think she's planning every little reference though. Can you imagine writing a work of fiction that way? Half of what's there, I bet she'd be surprised was actually in there, even though she wrote it.

Still, you're right whiz; despite the spiritual or magical or alchemical importance of seven, she has obviously used the number as a structuring element. Her literary illusions and her use of myths are probably the most obviously intended reference content.

It would be difficult to write a work of fiction with no sociological or psychological resonance. These social sciences aim at defining social behaviors through extensive observation. If they are relevant at all, they can be used as an instument on any socially or psychicly real representation.

whizbang121

January 13th, 2004, 7:20 pm

barmy codger

January 13th, 2004, 7:35 pm

But I don't think Dumbledore would kill him. Capture him yes - give him to the ministry yes - but kill him no. I don't think Dumbledore would do this.

That was also part of my point. If they had fought before and Dumbledore could not or chose not to kill Voldemort, then why would Voldemort still fear Dumbledore? I think they never duelled before book 5 and Voldemort's fear of Dumbledore was not based on direct experience up till then.

As for Ms. Rowling's writing, it takes her longer to write a book than it does for them to make a movie of it. That's either a lot of depth in writing, or a lot of goofing off.

Sabine

January 13th, 2004, 7:43 pm

That was also part of my point. If they had fought before and Dumbledore could not or chose not to kill Voldemort, then why would Voldemort still fear Dumbledore? I think they never duelled before book 5 and Voldemort's fear of Dumbledore was not based on direct experience up till then.

Well he could simply fear him because Dumbledore could still put an end to his reign of terror if he would capture him and turn him in.

Sabine

sindatur

January 13th, 2004, 8:05 pm

Seems to me, anyone in their right mind in the Wizarding World with an agenda in direct contrast to Dumbledore's (IE: Working against Dumbledore's aims) has good reason to fear him, Dumbledore's reputation precedes him.

Additionally, Dumbledore was at Hogwarts when Tom Riddle was there, so he probably has a good idea from school, how powerful Dumbledore may be. Dumbledore seemed to not be fooled by Tom Riddle's charm when he was at school, and plus Dumbledore brought down Voldemort's predecessor.

To me, that all adds up, even if Tom and Dumbledore have never met "wand to wand".

Liselle

January 13th, 2004, 8:18 pm

Voldemort said to Dumbledore, "By which time I shall be gone and you dead!" If they had met before, why didn't Voldemort kill him before? If he knew he couldn't kill Dumbledore, why did he continue? Why not just leave? "You do not seek to kill me, Dumbledore? Above such brutality are you?" Sounds like a newly discovered quality, something Voldemort didn't know before. Has Dumbledore changed tactics since previous encounters, or have there been no previous encounters? Also, duel in book 5 ended in stalemate. Yes, Voldemort didn't kill Dumbledore. That's something. But after this, will Voldemort harbour the same fears of Dumbledore that he held previously? If he went away with less reason to fear Dumbledore, then any previous encounter would have reduced his fear in a similar way.

Put in another way, if Voldemort had duelled Dumbledore before, he would have known that he doesn't have so much to fear. I think his fear was not based on direct experience.

Finally, there are no melodramatic remarks from either one about previous encounters. "So, we meet again, Dumbledore?" "Sticking your crooked nose into it once more, eh?" (Pardon the Canadianism)

interseting perspective here....what if you take it that Dumbledore was indirectly Tom Riddle/Voldemorts Mentor or if he is the former death eater who has left forever, unlikely as why would Voldie fear one of his own recruits but it could be the twist in the series (as if it needed any more!) .......

Look at it this way, DD is the only one who Voldie feared and one of the few who connects Tom Riddle with Voldemort. Why does Voldie fear DD? Its not from his school days anyway, Hagrid was still blamed and kicked out of Hogwarts. Is it from the defeat of Grindlewald? Hmm maybe. wouldn't it be a radical (although off the wall) scheme to think that it was DD who founded the knights of Walpurgis (original name for death eaters), maybe not for any particularly bad reason but Tom Riddle/voldie joined and started a split in the group. DD and others vowing to fight agianst what were now the death eaters making DD actually the root of the problem and hence his huge ties with Hogwarts.
is Dumbledore doing some sort of penance? I mean the man is "ancient" (150 or so)...although he is described as having great energy....why is he still at Hogwarts?? what is he atoning for? (or am I reading wayyyy too much into all this?!)

just a ponder
Liselle