The Prophecy: Its Impact, Meaning and Importance

[rotsiepots]

"The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies...and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not...and either must die at the hand of the other, for neither can live while the other survives...the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies..."

The prophecy, whilst incredibly insightful as to Voldemort's motives, is also rather abstract and requires interpretation and discussion. Please use this thread to discuss the prophecy's meaning or possible interpretation, but keep all discussion pertaining to the prophecy's impact on future books to this (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=13252) thread.

Please attempt to stay on topic and do not use this thread to boost post counts, otherwise it will be closed and the members straying from the thread's original purpose warned.

Thanks and enjoy!

[Jill]

.....and either must die at the hand of the other, for neither can live while the other survives

What does J.K.Rowling mean exactly by 'for neither can live while the other survives'. This has puzzled me as both Voldemort and Harry are at the moment, since the end of GoF, living while each other survives. Does this suggest that the effects of link between Harry and Voldemort is going worsen in time until it reaches a point that they must fight. Or does it mean something more emotional?

[Doggy]

.....and either must die at the hand of the other, for neither can live while the other survives

What does J.K.Rowling mean exactly by 'for neither can live while the other survives'. This has puzzled me as both Voldemort and Harry are at the moment, since the end of GoF, living while each other survives. Does this suggest that the effects of link between Harry and Voldemort is going worsen in time until it reaches a point that they must fight. Or does it mean something more emotional?
I've always seen it as they haven't had a "last battle" yet, but when they do, someone's got to die one way or the other. Harry has to find time to develop the "power the Dark Lord knows not", first though, is my guess.

"born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies.... I've thought of something.. It doesn't mention a year, does it..? So technically, it could be another year.

[Jill]

I've always seen it as they haven't had a "last battle" yet, but when they do, someone's got to die one way or the other. Harry has to find time to develop the "power the Dark Lord knows not", first though, is my guess.

"born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies.... I've thought of something.. It doesn't mention a year, does it..? So technically, it could be another year.

You know Doddy thats a good point. I mean it could be one of the mauders. We have never been told when Snape was born nor do we know when Mark Evans was born. We don't know exactly the month they where born in.

I do though think that it is Harry that is the one that was marked thought. But it is something that I had not notice untill you stated that there is no year. Good point Doddy...

[sindatur]

Hi Jill,

Regarding the "Neither can live while the other survives", I think means they have a purpose to fulfill their destiny, and until that destiny is fulfilled (one destroying the other) neither of them can live their own life. Yes, they are breathing, eating, existing, etc, but neither of them can have their own life, or for that matter live their life.

I've wondered about the lack of a year as well, although I have taken it for granted that Harry is indeed the one, since he was able to pick up the Prophecy.

Iftwould be a heck of a twist though if it did turn out to be Snape, and the marking him as an equal referred to the Dark MArk on the arm (Is it called a Dark Mark?). I don't think that can be so, though, because I haven't gotten the impression that the Death Eaters could be considered as equals to Voldemort, not even his favorites, who I believe would be Lucius and Bellatrix.

[seanseamus]

You know Doddy thats a good point. I mean it could be one of the mauders. We have never been told when Snape was born nor do we know when Mark Evans was born. We don't know exactly the month they where born in.

I do though think that it is Harry that is the one that was marked thought. But it is something that I had not notice untill you stated that there is no year. Good point Doddy...
At the hand of the other. That is an intereting phrase. Could it mean a sidekick or one acting for the person about whom the prophecy applies. If it means personal ,Voldemort could avoid being killed by just avoiding Harry. It could of course, apply to Neville. Neville who has been discounted by Volemort and whose rage at what has happened to his parents could give him the boost of magical (or non-magical ) power sufficient to carry the day. Neville has been marked by what Lestrange did to his parents.

[Jill]

At the hand of the other. That is an intereting phrase. Could it mean a sidekick or one acting for the person about whom the prophecy applies. If it means personal ,Voldemort could avoid being killed by just avoiding Harry. It could of course, apply to Neville. Neville who has been discounted by Volemort and whose rage at what has happened to his parents could give him the boost of magical (or non-magical ) power sufficient to carry the day. Neville has been marked by what Lestrange did to his parents.

They are really good theories to explain this but let me put a spoke in the spanner (woops, I mean a spanner in the spokes, oh dear me :no: ).

What if the phrase At the hand of the other, means at the hand of one of Voldemorts servants, i.e. Snape with his Dark Mark...

As you said below:

Hi Jill,

Regarding the "Neither can live while the other survives", I think means they have a purpose to fulfill their destiny, and until that destiny is fulfilled (one destroying the other) neither of them can live their own life. Yes, they are breathing, eating, existing, etc, but neither of them can have their own life, or for that matter live their life.

I've wondered about the lack of a year as well, although I have taken it for granted that Harry is indeed the one, since he was able to pick up the Prophecy.

Iftwould be a heck of a twist though if it did turn out to be Snape, and the marking him as an equal referred to the Dark MArk on the arm (Is it called a Dark Mark?). I don't think that can be so, though, because I haven't gotten the impression that the Death Eaters could be considered as equals to Voldemort, not even his favorites, who I believe would be Lucius and Bellatrix.

You know I did not think about the dark mark on Snapes arm.

You see we know very little about Snape and he is beginning to fit the profile of the prophecy. It would be an amazing twist if the prophecy was talking about Snape. Why did Dumbledore assume it was on that year when no year was mentioned.

So there can be only two explanations to this line in the prophecy:

1. That Dumbledore is not telling us everything we need to know about the prophecy,

2. or that the prophecy can be talking about anyone of Snape, Harry or Neville..


You know this might explain why Dumbledore trust Snape so much. Perhaps it is about Harry and Voldemort but what if the prophecy is about a third person too. What is it is Snapes sacrifice that save Harry, that would be something very special. After all Snapes done to Harry, to have him sacrifice his life for Harry so that Harry can finish off Voldemort once and for all. That would be a very powerful message of remorse and regreat for everything Snape may have done. It would fit the prophecy as the prophecy talks about love and if Snape is a relative to Lily Evans as suggested by the anogram then perhaps Snapes sacrifice for Harry may be just as powerful as that of Lilys.

So the phrase, .....and either must die at the hand of the other, for neither can live while the other survives may refer to the Snape/Harry relationship and what has to happen to allow the prophecy to run its course.

[Tirwen Lupin]

I doubt it can be Snape--he is marked by Voldemort, but many other people have that same mark. That would make it seem that they were all marked as his equals.
And what about the bit with "born to those who have thrice defied him"? Could Snape's parents have thrice defied Voldemort? It's possible, but I don't think Voldemort was in power that far back. Could be wrong, though.
And Trelawney was using the future tense of "will"--whcih would imply that this person wasn't born yet.

[Jill]

I doubt it can be Snape--he is marked by Voldemort, but many other people have that same mark. That would make it seem that they were all marked as his equals.
And what about the bit with "born to those who have thrice defied him"? Could Snape's parents have thrice defied Voldemort? It's possible, but I don't think Voldemort was in power that far back. Could be wrong, though.
And Trelawney was using the future tense of "will"--whcih would imply that this person wasn't born yet.

Good points there and you write about the will issue, so that would really cut Snape out of the equation. Unless the prophecy is split up into bits. Which means that the boy that brings down Voldemorts is the boy who is born on that specific day. But those with the mark, the dark mark might sacrifice themselfs to allow Harry or who ever that boy who was born on that day, to come along and finish it off.

If the prophecy is refering to many people rather than a couple of people and it is split up and not wholly devoted to just Harry and Voldemort then it is possible that all those with the mark may turn against Voldemort and aid Harrys side. We are already beginning to see people run from Voldemort and I am convinced Pettigrew and Snape have turned sides already...but that is another thread.

I still think the prophecy is refering to three different people.

[deadlocked]

It means Harry And LV will duel and one will die. Simple as that

[Jill]

It means Harry And LV will duel and one will die. Simple as that

But it also states that the dark lord will be vanquished and that does not just mean by death. Vanquish could mean something else, such as exile from a place and sent to somewhere that is worse than death itself.

[deadlocked]

But it also states that the dark lord will be vanquished and that does not just mean by death. Vanquish could mean something else, such as exile from a place and sent to somewhere that is worse than death itself.

If you're not alive what are you??

[Jill]

If you're not alive what are you??

You could be trapped in an inbetween place, where you are neither dead or alive.

The prophecy is all segregated, which means each section could be refering to someone else as it is not continous. Each part might apply to a different time or event towards the build up of Voldemorts demise. Hence the first part as stated below:

"The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies...and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not...and either must die at the hand of the other, for neither can live while the other survives...the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies..."

This prophecy might not just be talking about the beginning and an end, it might contain events that are still to occur or be cleared up in book 6. I do not think that the prophecy is complete anyway because it sounds too fragmented.

[Dedalus]

"The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies...and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal
This part has already been fullfilled, I assume. We know Harry was born, when he was born, that he was born to those who thrice defied Voldemort (I wonder how?) and we know that Voldemort marked him as an equal, both by seeking him first and by literally marking him with the spell.

but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not
A lot of people suggest some complicated magic, or unknown power. Perhaps it's nothing like that, because Lord Voldemort is already very magically powerful and that's almost what drives him to darkness. Perhaps the power is a much more homely one ... mercy? Something Voldemort certainly doesn't know. Love, too, of course, because that hurts Voldemort when ever he tries to harm Harry while he, Harry, has love for people. Knowing that there's worse than death? It could be something small and simple, like the time he overlooked the simple power of a mother's love.

...and either must die at the hand of the other, for neither can live while the other survives
One must die at the hand of the other ... does that necessarily mean killing them exactly? Could having a hand in someone's death, not be outright killing them? Could he help Voldemort destroy himself, perhaps?

...the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies..."
Strange wording, yet again. The power to vanquish the Dark Lord, eh ...

[hesdead-dealwithit]

The most interesting thing to me is the first two words, "the one." It means, there is only one. Only Harry has the ability to vanquish LV. If Harry loses, LV will live forever and dominate everyone's lives forever. No one else can stop him. Most people skip over this part to get what they see as the meat of the prophecy, but the first two words are what really matter.

[rotsiepots]

It means Harry And LV will duel and one will die. Simple as that

I don't think it is that simple. I think JKR was intentionally obscure when she said, ...and either must die at the hand of the other, for neither can live while the other survives... This doesn't necessarily imply that Harry and Voldemort are going to duel and one of them will be killed. It just means that one of them is going to be responsible for the other's death.

A lot of people ascribe to the theory that Voldemort's undoing will be the power the Dark Lord knows not. I like this theory because it seems less conventional than an Avada Kedavra ending.

[hesdead-dealwithit]

I like this theory because it seems less conventional than an Avada Kedavra ending.
And also much more likely. Harry and Voldemort cannot duel, not unless one of them has a different wand. And if one of them is fighting with someone else's wand, at these stakes, they will probably lose because of it.

[Sabine]

The most interesting thing to me is the first two words, "the one." It means, there is only one. Only Harry has the ability to vanquish LV. If Harry loses, LV will live forever and dominate everyone's lives forever. No one else can stop him. Most people skip over this part to get what they see as the meat of the prophecy, but the first two words are what really matter.

I don't think so. If Harry loses, than the prophecy is fullfilled. And there would be room for another prophecy and room for another "ONE" .

Sabine

[Dedalus]

"and either must die at the hand of the other, for neither can live while the other survives...
You know, I was thinking about this line and it doesn't merely just hint that one should kill the other. It also hints that it will come to a point where one must kill the other, that neither can be alive at the same time. Why's this? Why can they both not exist alongside each other? At the moment they seem to live perfectly fine ... well, no, but I'll go on to that ... so what does this line mean?

This actually seems to be the whole cause of the Prophecy, explaining the reason why they should have to kill either of each other.

Thinking about it, it's getting worse and worse for Harry, now that Voldemort is alive. He's dreaming of being Voldemort, he's seeing things that Voldemort sees. It's almost like the two are merging together. Could that be something to do with it? It's getting worse now Voldemort has a living body again, so perhaps it will get worse and worse for him.

[Doggy]

Ok, reading your post, Dedalus, I just got the craziest idea. That it means that only one body can live, and that that one is shared both Voldemort and Harry for awhile, before one of them sort of conquers the other - pushes him out so to speak. And that that's what's happening now, with the two being to tell the other's feelings.

Stupid idea I know. Please don't take it seriously unless you've got some proof that can explain it.
Seriously, it's not true, because it does say "neither can live while the other survives". It's the "survives" that got me. Let me try to explain what I mean. Right now, for example, I'm living, but I'm not exactly surviving, because I've got nothing to survive. I'm not dying in some disease, I don't have an incurable wound in my chest. Nothing. I don't even have a broken heart. So, that shows that the two have to meet somewhere, where one of them has to, not only live, but survive. It can't just be Voldemort comitting suicide, because Harry doesn't really survuve through that. Not in that way at least.

Oh, Rotsiepots, maybe you should change the title of the thread. It says The Prophesy: its impact..etc. and then you write that we're not supposed to discuss its impact here. Just a thought.

[[Pretty]_[Unicorn]]

I think the prophecy is just foretelling fate. Trelawney saw a vision and just rephrased it so it wouldn't be given away but in the end Harry will have to fight Voldemort. They are meant to fight, like in matrix, it is Harry's destiny.

[Navy Blues]

Seriously, it's not true, because it does say "neither can live while the other survives". It's the "survives" that got me. Let me try to explain what I mean. Right now, for example, I'm living, but I'm not exactly surviving, because I've got nothing to survive. I'm not dying in some disease, I don't have an incurable wound in my chest. Nothing. I don't even have a broken heart. So, that shows that the two have to meet somewhere, where one of them has to, not only live, but survive. It can't just be Voldemort comitting suicide, because Harry doesn't really survuve through that. Not in that way at least.

The "survives" stuck out for me as well, but I don't see it in quite that way. The crucial and noticeable thing here is using two words with similar but not identical meanings, words that could be used in the same way ("live" and "survives".
I interpret "live" in this sense as "enjoy an independent life". Neither Harry or Voldemort have a life independent of the other - their paths are always crossing, they are set against each other, and that's even before the physical-psychic connection existing through the scar. In effect, they are constantly warring - neither can be free to create their own life until the other is no more - until then, their fates are bound together. In a sense, both are constantly surviving - Voldemort through the physical effort of getting and maintaining a body, Harry because there have always been so many people trying to kill him.

Sctually, looking over the whole prophecy, my instinct is mainly to take it at face value: that Harry is the One, that he or Voldemort will eventually kill the other. Yet I think there is something more there - maybe the prophecy does actually mean just this, but I am sure the words of the prophecy will shape the exact way it is fulfilled. My attention is drawn to the two numbers: seven and three. I think this means that the death of either will come at the end of the seventh year (pretty obvious from a narrative point of view), and that the Three will play an important part. The feelings in my head on this are far too vague now to put into words.

[matthall84]

I think Harry is The One, he is the one "marked" by Voldemort as his equal. It can be argued Neville was marked, but not by Voldemort, it was the DE, like Bellatrix who marked Neville when his parents were tortured.
Does anyone have a theory as to how Harry could vanquish Voldemort? It says one will die at the hand of the other. Since they can't duel with wands how else could they fight? I wondered if it is possible to perform magic without a wand. I went back and read CoS and in the 1st chapter The Worst Birthday, "... He had spent ten years with the Dursleys, never understanding why he kept making odd things happen without meaning to..." like talking to the python and making the glass disappear so it could escape. This seems to indicate Harry can perform magic without a wand, possibly when emotions run very high. Although Harry lost his parents to Voldemort, he was only a year old so the loss might not impact him as much as someone he has really grown to love. I believe it has been speculated that this is why Sirius had to die, so Harry could experience real loss. I think this will allow him to use his emotions and tap in to that power so that he can vanquish Voldemort. I get the impression that the protection he recieves from his mother's blood was not from a spell but from her love and sacrifice for Harry, something which is foreign to Voldemort.

[dumbleedore]

...the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies...

I think it's curious that JK starts AND ends the prophecy in the exact same way... what could she be implying by that?

[Weatherby]

I think the prophecy can mean just about anything. It could mean both can't live at the same time [I like that suggestion Dedalus] or it could mean one must kill the other.
The future is never set in stone. The prophecy could've changed it's meaning. It's true the year was never stated. But Harry is still the boy because Voldemort chose him. I think their actions since then and everything they do now will cause the prophecy's meaning to evolve further.
The future is never set in stone. I think it's just his destiny but not really laid out in full if you will.
Rowling has been leaving hints early on about the prophecy but Firenze's classes are also hinting that what was written doesn't have to be. At least that's how I read into it.

[dumbleedore]

what was written doesn't have to be

True, very true. But does that mean that Voldemort will never be defeated or vanquished?

[Weatherby]

I don't know. I think it leaves the possibilities open for how he'll be vanquished or killed. I think Rowling chose to use a prophecy for the main story arc because of it's vagueness. Anything could happen.

[Tirwen Lupin]

I think it's curious that JK starts AND ends the prophecy in the exact same way... what could she be implying by that?
That is interesting. It struck me as making the prophecy seem rather circular--maybe just for the sake of the sound (it does sound rather more mysterious with that refrain), though it could quite possibly be implying something else.

I don't know. I think it leaves the possibilities open for how he'll be vanquished or killed. I think Rowling chose to use a prophecy for the main story arc because of it's vagueness. Anything could happen.
That's very true--it does say that one must somehow vanquish the other, but it's so vague that it leaves a huge realm of possibility as to how that could come about. I think Rowling will almost deifinitely fulfill it, but in a way that no-one would expect.

[Navy Blues]

I think the one thing that can be absolutely guarunteed is that the prophecy will be fulfilled. Not in the way everybody expects, not in the obvious way (we know JKR too well for that), but it will be fulfilled. That is in the nature of prophecy in literature.

[Weatherby]

It'll certainly come about but I think the prophecy is the perfect way to lay out hints without cheating or giving anything away. She's laid out everything to be open to different interpretation for the characters and us. I think Voldemort and Dumbledore have different opinons on what the prophecy means.

I think Harry may not have to actually kill Voldemort. Dumbledore did say there were things worse than death. I think his resignation that he may have to is important to bringing it about possibly. Harry will be ready for anything.

[London_luv89]

.....and either must die at the hand of the other, for neither can live while the other survives

What does J.K.Rowling mean exactly by 'for neither can live while the other survives'. This has puzzled me as both Voldemort and Harry are at the moment, since the end of GoF, living while each other survives. Does this suggest that the effects of link between Harry and Voldemort is going worsen in time until it reaches a point that they must fight. Or does it mean something more emotional?
That same phrase/sentence puzzles me too, I don't get, are they both supposed to die, cause if one surivies the other will too? :huh:

[jordmundt6]

I've suggested earlier that Harry's life in the shadow of impending death is not a true life and that until Voldemort can attain immortality he's stained by the curse of the unicorn blood he's drunk to survive at various stages of his rebirth and reeemergence. Harry can't have a full life and Voldemort can't ditch the curse until one or the other of them is finally dead.

Has anyone considered reading the Prophecy in light of Firenze's--"Nothing is ever certain, it takes decades to double-check readings, and even then we're often wrong" lecture? That the prophecy could be incomplete or somehow incorrect?

Just playing devil's advocate here.

[GryffindorSeeker]

This prophecy has been bothering me for a while. I'm not quite sure if there is a loophole, and if there is one it's rather well hidden. Well, born as the seventh month dies doesn't have to mean the 31st, but I'm sure it's Harry, because the books being from his, as the hero's POV would be rather useless. "to vanquish the Dark Lord" doesn't necessarily mean Voldemort has to die. Him dying would be one way to do it.

[sawyer]

I have a doubt about prophecy: was it only important when Dumbledore listened it the first time? Even if Voldemort had caught the prophecy in book 5 what would have happened?
I suppose it was only a Dumbledore attempt to distract the Dark Lord.

[Furienna]

Well, at least one of them has to die. It says "Either must die at the hand of the other". Don't you notice the "die", people? DIE! DIE! DIE?

Otherwise, I think Harry has to put Voldemort through the veil of DOM. Maybe Harry will end up behind the veil too. Maybe Voldie drags him along, thinking "if I die, at least Harry will die too". Or they just wrestle til they fall through the veil together. At least, wands is out of the question because of Fawkes feathers. (Olivander must know that Tom Riddle is Voldemort, then...) At least, Voldie has to die, or the whole world would be in chaos if no one would ever be able to stop Voldemort again.

[DaisyMae]

I may have missed someone pointing this out. . . but, in book three when Harry gets on the night bus the driver notices his scar and believes he is Harry Potter. However, Harry, fearing the ministry of magic is going to drag him to Azkaban doesn't want to let on that he is running away. He tells the driver that his name is Neville. Several times the driver and his friend call Harry Neville.
Any thoughts on this?

[incognito]

"The One with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches... Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies.... and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not... and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives... The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies..."
As I'm a literature and linguistics major, I'm naturally going to approach this text from a linguistic (how the language is constructed) point of view.
The first important thing is the capitalisation of "the One" right at the start. This is a precise statement that the person to whom it refers isn't just "one out of the bunch" but "the One", the chosen one, the only one. (Just as you capitalise e.g. "God," "Truth," "Justice," etc.) This immediately rules out the possibility that if the One fails to vanquish the Dark Lord, someone else might do it for him.
If Harry doesn't vanquish Voldemort, no one will (ever) be able to.
The next interesting thing is the choice of words in "power to vanquish the Dark Lord". Note that it doesn't say "The One who will kill the Dark Lord". First "power" indicates a possibility to vanquish Voldemort, not a factual statement that this will happen. Then "vanquish" doesn't necessarily mean "kill." It's usually used in emotional contexts ("vanquish an emotion") in poetry or 19th century romantic novels (a bit "Heathcliff-on-the-moor-ish") and its synonyms are rather "conquer" and "eliminate" than "kill." This supports the theory that Harry won't kill Voldemort in a duel or the like. We've already seen that their wands can't fight against each other. I lean more towards that Harry will set off some kind of reaction in Voldemort and that he will be consumed from within. Why?
Well, we've got all these references to love: how Harry's full of it, how Voldemort has nothing of it, despises it, can't stand it and--at several accounts--underestimates its power. We also learn in OotP of the "great and terrible power" that lies in the Department of Mysteries (I'd put my money on love). I will analyse the importance of love in more depth in another article; for now I'd just like to put forward the argument that Harry might not kill Voldemort--he might neutralise him, or Voldemort might kill himself as a result of this.
If we look a bit deeper, we see that the word "power" can be nuanced: the wording is "The One with the power to vanquish...." Grammatically, this is ambiguous and can be read either "the one with the possibility to vanquish" or "the one with the power which will vanquish". The first interpretation means that Harry might vanquish Voldy. The second means that Harry possesses a power, and that this power will vanquish Voldy. There's an important difference in this: number one makes Harry the direct hero; number two makes Harry the tool for the mystic powers, the vessel of good.
Voldemort might not die, but he will most certainly be conquered by the forces of good (love), not necessarily by a direct act from Harry.
Oh! I got another idea! Another interesting choice of words: "Dark Lord". Sure, JKR might have chosen it for the poetic feeling of it. Then again, she might not have. Let's look at it this way: the "Dark Lord" is a persona that Tom Riddle created for himself. It is the symbol of the evil in him, as well as his evil deeds. It represents his dark side, the hate and fear he feels and inspires. The prophecy states that there is one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord, not necessarily the man underneath it. JKR keeps giving us clues to why Tom Riddle turned (observe the word "turned," he wasn't evil from the start) evil, to give us a more nuanced picture of him. Maybe Voldemort will be vanquished but Tom Riddle will prevail...
"born to those who have trice defied him, born as the seventh month dies".
We here learn that James and Lily have managed to escape Voldemort THREE times, (three as in being a magic number) and we'll probably get to know what happened those three times in Book 6 or 7. The following part is a linguistic masterpiece: "born as the seventh month dies." Seven as in the magical number (note how many number sevens there are in the entire series) and the beautiful balancing of "born" and "dies." The death of the month gives birth to the hero; darkness gives birth to light. (I just have to insert that I think this prophecy is a work of art in the way it's constructed. It's plain beautiful. JKR really knows her stylistic devices; I'm in awe :-))
Anyway, if you want to play with the sentence a bit, it's quite easy to make the parallel "born as the seventh month dies" – "born as the seventh year dies," where (in the second one) "born" would indicate the birth of a new era and "as the seventh year dies" the end of the Trio's time at Hogwarts. The end of the seventh book will open up on something new, be a new beginning; but then again, that seems quite obvious. Since Voldemort will (very probably) be vanquished, something new must come.
"and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not"
This touches the relationship between Harry and Voldemort. It's way too complex to analyse here, but I promise to do it in a later article. The second part refers back to "power"--it emphasises once more the importance of love (also to be discussed separately).
"and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives"
This is the most dramatic part of the prophecy. The fascinating thing is that it seems so clear and straightforward: one of them must kill the other. This contradicts the nuanced analysis of the first sentence presented above. I'll try to break the problem down a little:
 "and either must die at the hand of the other" means that either V kills H or H kills V.
 "for neither can live while the other survives" means that V and H can't live at the same time. They will destroy each other, which can be seen very clearly in OotP from Harry's point of view: he's getting darker, he and Voldemort are starting to melt together (dreams, feelings, etc.), and this is unbearable for both of them. Harry can't bear the darkness of Voldemort and Voldemort can't bear the love that is inside Harry (as seen when he possesses Harry).
So, does this mean that my two-page analysis is just plain **** and that JKR just wrote it like that because it sounded pretty? Could be. I don't think so though: JKR chooses her words with great care, especially in a passage as vital as this one. Let me tell you what I do think.
I think that JKR wanted us to focus on "and either must die at the hand of the other" and forget about what surrounds it. She wants us to anticipate a classic, heroic end where Harry impales Voldemort on the sword of Gryffindor or something like that. At the same time she sneaks in all the clues about the importance of love, indicating that it will have an important role but not saying straight out that love will be the means of defeating Voldemort. And we fall for it. We focus on the word "die" and gladly ignore the rest of the prophecy. So does Dumbledore. So does Harry. I think we are all deceived...
I think the importance lies in the words "the One" and "Dark Lord". It doesn't say "Harry Potter" and "Tom Riddle." Remember that there were two boys born in terms of the prophecy: Harry and Neville. Harry wasn't born the One; he was chosen, made the One by Voldemort. Likewise, Tom Riddle wasn't born the Dark Lord; it was something he became. So when the prophecy states that "either must die at the hand of the other," it grammatically refers to the One and the Dark Lord, not Harry and Tom. This opens up another fascinating question: are we the roles we play or do we have something deep inside us that is just us, some sort of essence, an unchangeable core? This is unfortunately also a very long discussion, so I won't take it here. :-)
The conclusion of all this philosophy is that the prophecy doesn't actually state that Harry or Tom has to die, only that one of the personas "the One" and "Dark Lord" has to (or both; nothing stopping that). I know that a lot of people put Voldemort equal to Sauron of Lord of the Rings, think that he is the ultimate evil and has to die. Wrong. Sauron is the personification of evil and cannot be redeemed; Voldemort is a person corrupted by Evil's power (if you want to make the parallel to Lord of the Rings, he's more like Gollum) and there is therefore a possibility of redemption.
Who knows, Tom Riddle might survive the fall of the Dark Lord. I personally think he just might.
Finally, I just want to say that this prophecy is an extremely complex one that looks very simple. It will surely play a great part in the coming books as the (possibly wrong) interpretation that Harry has of it will influence his actions. I've given you my interpretation; you are free to find your own. Just remember: with JKR, what you see is never what you get...
Take care.
Maline


Today I'll finish what I started last week: an analysis of what will happen based on the prophecies in Harry Potter. Let's pick up where we left off and go back to the prophecies.
but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not
This clause can be analyzed in two ways.
1) He [the One] will have power and the Dark Lord won't know that he [the One] has that power.
2) He [the One] will have power that the Dark Lord is not familiar with.
If you interpret it according to (1), this supports the argumentation of Neville being the One: since Voldemort's never met him, he doesn't know anything about his powers (as many people have pointed out to me in their owls).
If, on the other hand, you interpret it according to (2), it means that it is about the power in itself that the Dark Lord knows nothing (or very little). He might very well know that the One possesses this power but not how it works or how powerful it is.
I interpret it according to (2) for the following reasons:
1) If you divide the clause into parts according to function you'll get:
he | will have | power the Dark Lord knows not - subject | predicate | object
In this situation, the words "the Dark Lord knows not" become a description of "power" in the same way as "a red" in the sentence "the girl has a rose, a red," describes the rose, not the girl. Also, "knows" is here used as a transitive verb (meaning that it refers directly to another word without a preposition in between) giving the possible question "What doesn't the DL know? - the power" (like the sentence "What doesn't Maline know? - her Latin homework"). "Knows" is attached to "power" and not to "he." In order to attach it to "he," you'd need another relative clause, e.g. "he will have power the Dark Lord knows not that he has."
2) The power in question is described as follows by Dumbledore (OotP p.743)
"There is a room in the Department of Mysteries... that is kept locked at all times. It contains a force that is at once more wonderful and more terrible than death, than human intelligence, than the forces of nature. It is also, perhaps, the most mysterious of the many subjects for study that reside there. It is the power held within that room that you possess in such quantities and which Voldemort has not at all. That power took you to save Sirius tonight. That power also saved you from possession by Voldemort, because he could not bear to reside in a body so full of the force he detests."
A power which Harry has and Voldy doesn't... a force that Voldemort detests. Note the structural parallel to the passages about the effects of Lily's sacrifice (PS/SS, CoS, GoF, OotP) where we're told that the protection it gave to Harry was due to an ancient branch of magic which Voldemort's aware of but has always despised and therefore underestimated. He hasn't learned it because he thinks it's rubbish. He doesn't know it.
I think that we're talking about the same power here, the Power, which I think is also the same as the power in "The One with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches." Voldemort knows that Harry has this power, but he doesn't know exactly what it is, does or how powerful it can be.
3) Why would JKR write seven books called Harry Potter and... if the true hero was Neville Longbottom? Please everyone, this does not make sense. This is like, at the end of Cinderella, it would turn out that the glass shoe fits one of the stepsisters perfectly and she goes away to the castle, marries the prince and lives happily ever after.
Anyway, we will surely get to know more about this power, how it works, why Harry has it and why Voldemort doesn't. This should include a more detailed study of Voldemort's character. More information on his transformation into the Dark Lord and childhood, perhaps?
and either must die at the hand of the other
Oh yes! Everybody's favourite part for guessing the ending of HP7. I've already explained (in NT1 - Chosen) what I think about this: that one (or both) of the personas "the One" and "the Dark Lord" will have to die, but not necessarily the people behind them (i.e., Harry and Tom).
This still gives quite a bit of room for guesswork though. Here are some options:
1) Tom dies because he now (possibly because of Harry's blood and Wormtail's flesh) has "enough human in him to die," but not yet enough to live. Remember that he in PS/SS drank the blood of a unicorn and is therefore doomed to a damned half-life.
2) Voldemort might be cleansed and "forgiven" by the great power (love... hey, think how surprised we'd all be if it turns out to be something else!), and everybody will have a happy ending and la la la, but I think that's a bit too fairy tale for JKR.
3) Both Tom and Harry might die. We've seen how long grudges tend to last in HP, so what if Harry and Voldemort fight, Harry wins, Voldemort goes good and remorseful, Harry kills him anyway because Voldemort killed his parents? Or they become friends and get killed by other people? I must say that I don't believe that Harry would kill Tom Riddle, we've seen how he sympathizes with him in CoS and he's already shown Wormtail extraordinary mercy, but it is a possibility.
The way I see it, it could go either way. I think the Dark Lord will be defeated by the mystical power wielded by Harry and become Tom Riddle again. Then, Harry has a choice to make: show mercy or kill him anyway. As I said, it would be more in character for Harry to show mercy, but let's not forget two things:
1) Harry hates Voldemort because of all the pain he's caused him. Voldy has killed (so far) his mother, father and Sirius, the people he loved most in the entire world. He's made his life miserable with all the headaches and having to live at the Dursleys, not to mention the unwanted fame. Harry would want to kill him.
2) He thinks he has to. Remember that both Dumbledore and Harry interpreted the prophecy in a different way than we did here: they believe that Harry must kill Voldy in the physical sense. I think this is very important. JKR has shown before that her characters don't always know the truth about things (e.g., what really happened with Wormtail, Sirius and the Fidelius Charm) and they can misinterpret things also. They're only human after all.
This opens up for the very sad and ironic ending that Voldy goes good, Harry forgives him but kills him anyway because he thinks that he has to (like Buffy with Angel in season 2, only she actually had to). This would be very Greek-tragedy-ish and go well with JKR's style.
On the other hand (again), I got hooked on two things Dumbledore said while fighting Voldemort in the MoM: "Merely taking your life would not satisfy me, I admit," and "Indeed, your failure to understand that there are things much worse than death has always been your greatest weakness" (both in OotP, p 718).
JKR has said that she often speaks through Dumbledore and I think this is one of the moments when character and writer melt together. If you put the two sentences together you get the following clue: JKR will not merely kill off Voldemort because 1) it wouldn't satisfy her (she too will want "revenge" for the murders of some of her favorite characters, think back on her statements about her grief when killing off Sirius, for example), and 2) she obviously has something important to show us. What it is that is worse than death? Well, the mystical power locked inside the DoM, for example. Voldemort doesn't know it, but he'll have to learn, I think we can count on that. My personal guess is that Lord Voldemort will be "cleansed" and go back to being Tom Riddle, but that he'll have to make amends for all the evil he's done for the rest of his life. But, that is just me.

[Discordia]

You know I really am starting to wonder whether Lily and James were aware of the prophecy. Everyone automatically assumes that they knew about it but the books don't really clarify that. It could be possible that they didn't know about it. Dumbledore might have not told Harry's parents for the same reason that he didn't want to tell Harry. I mean how would you have felt if you find out that your son was destined to challenge the most feared and dangerous wizard in all of History? How would they have dealt whith that? Dumbledore knew that he would have had to tell Harry about the prophecy eventually so he couldn't have actually expected to keep it from his parents and leave them in the dark. THey have a right to know what going to happen to their child. How couldn't they know? They'd have had to know considering what it was about. But I think that there might be a hidden meaning to what Lily asks Voldemort to do for her. But they had to have known, Dumbledore wouldn't have been that full up with his fabulous plan that he would have neglected to tell Harry's Parents

[McKinnon02]

I have a few things I would like to point out. 1. Harry and Voldemort can and have used their wands against one another. In book 4, when they fired the spells that caused the Priori Incantatem effect, their wands were on a direct line with one another. In order to use their wands against one another, all they have to do is make sure the wands aren't lined up. 2. I believe someone mentioned something about Harry and Voldemort almost merging, and this really got me thinking. Harry is becoming incredibly attuned to Voldemort- he sees what Voldemort sees, feels what he feels (especially when he's around Dumbledore). I assume this works the other way around as well. Their contact with one another is getting more and more frequent. This is where the "neither can live while the other survives" line comes into play. In the Department of Mysteries, Voldemort was actually able to posess Harry. I'm assuming he lost his body while he was doing it. But Harry's emotions expelled him, and he got his body back (again.) Anyway, I'll get to my point because this is getting rather long. It might be possible that during the final attack, Voldemort will again attempt to possess Harry- and Harry's emotions will be so strong, so powerful, that Harry's core being will consume or overpower Lord Voldemort's. The two will become one in essence- and one of them will "kill", or overtake, the other. It'll be with such force that the other personality/will will simply be destroyed, never to exist, or only to exist as a minor part of the winner. Or it might be the other way around. What do you think?

[Hood Teacher]

.....and either must die at the hand of the other, for neither can live while the other survives

What does J.K.Rowling mean exactly by 'for neither can live while the other survives'. This has puzzled me as both Voldemort and Harry are at the moment, since the end of GoF, living while each other survives. Does this suggest that the effects of link between Harry and Voldemort is going worsen in time until it reaches a point that they must fight. Or does it mean something more emotional?

Isn't it obvious that they one can never live at peace with the other still alive Harry's life will never be peaceful with Voldemort and Voldemort will never take over the Wizarding and the muggle world as long as Harry Potter is still alive and breathing it is just like that how voldemorts gonna kill harry easy how Harry gonna kill Voldemort who knows we just have ot wait and see......

R.I.P Sirius Black A True Marauder To The End

[GryffindorSeeker]

Here's one thing that I find very odd:
All the way through the books, ever since Divination was first introduced, the whole subject and everything else was shown in contempt. So much Trelawny said was just trash, and Divination was just a joke. Yet, at the end of the last book, something is introduced : the prophecy. Now, Divination, the subject that has never been taken seriously, holds the major twist. This change seems strange, and not very much looked into.

I do believe that the prophecy will come true, in some way, but it will be one very unexpected outcome. I'm not sure how, but it will.

[morgan le fay]

i think this has been addressed somewhere in another thread already but i cant find it :blush:

the prophecy was in row 97. logically, because the prophecy will be fulfilled in the year 1997. yet in trelawneys prophecy, she makes no mention of time or any date except for the month when the one with the power is born. obviously, JKR wouldnt be the opposite of anti-climactic and write the defeat of voldemort in book 6 leaving us with an oddly unfulfilling book 7. but i wonder how the keepers of the hall of prophecy knew to put the prophecy in row 97? or maybe it doesnt represent the year 1997. :huh:

[thinkpink38]

Is it possible that both of them might die by the other, or does it have to be one dies and one survives?

[Furienna]

i think this has been addressed somewhere in another thread already but i cant find it :blush:

Don't worry. I think too much power is put down in searching for other threads and so on. I mean, if someone has posted something a little bit similar months earlier, your thread is almost closed.

the prophecy was in row 97. logically, because the prophecy will be fulfilled in the year 1997. yet in trelawneys prophecy, she makes no mention of time or any date except for the month when the one with the power is born. obviously, JKR wouldnt be the opposite of anti-climactic and write the defeat of voldemort in book 6 leaving us with an oddly unfulfilling book 7. but i wonder how the keepers of the hall of prophecy knew to put the prophecy in row 97? or maybe it doesnt represent the year 1997. :huh:

Interesting sighting! I believe that the big defeat of Voldemort will take place in the first half of 1998 though, not in 1997. I don't think the book will start with the defeat, but then again, only JKR knows. (As usually :grumble:)

[whizbang121]

~ ;)

[ardnaxela]

Hey everyone, I just want to share with everyone the way that I took the prophecy.

The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches
On some other threads there was discussion as to when the Prophecy was actually made. From this line I deduce that it was made before Neville and Harry were born as it says that the one with the power is approaching.

born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies
This part is pretty straight forward. The person with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born at the end of July and to parents that have defied voldemort three times.

and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not
Voldemort will choose which one of these two people (Neville and Harry) that he thinks will be the threat and will mark him as being equal ie. The scar - (I'll just include that that is why the Avada Kedavra curse didnt work on Harry because this was his "marking." Voldemort couldnt kill Harry straight away because either Harry or Neville needed to be marked first.

and either must die at the hand of the other, for neither can live while the other survives.
Now this part is the bit that has everyone stumped. To begin with Harry or Voldemort has to kill the other one. But the second part is more complex. I think that it means that either
1) THE SIMPLE MEANING: Neither can live a proper life while the other one is there - also neither can die from anything else while the other is still alive, one has to kill the other.
2)MORE COMPLEX MEANING: I'm not sure whether this is actually more complex or not, but another way it could be taken is that they will both be living - but not a proper life - or both will have to die.

the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies..."
again pretty straight forward

[Blue Pheonix]

incognito, I love you. :p

That's what I think is exactly what will happen. Well not exactly, but it certainly is the best possibility out there. The One and the Dark Lord are the beings in question, not Harry Potter/Neville Longbottom and Tom Riddle.

Using logical sense, it seems Harry will expose Voldemort to love, completely destroying The Dark Lord, leaving Tom Riddle alive. I've been thinking though and I've come up with a few really strange theories.

1) There are many mysteries revolving around Neville Longbottom. The Demenotrs, his grandmother, his parents, etc. When you think about it, EVERYTHING in Neville's life reminds him of the Death Eaters. Maybe that is the mark left by the Dark Lord?

2) It could be Snape as someone said, explaining why Dumbledore trusts him so much.

3) I was thinking, maybe the year is important. OK, let's look at this. "Born as the seventh month dies.", maybe the seventh month may not mean what we think it means. Maybe the seventh month refers to Harry himself. Like someone born in the seventh month is referred to as that month by Trelawney to disclose secrecy. "Born to those that have defied Voldemort thrice before." could refer to anything from now on. I was just thinking. Ron/Hermoine. If the hints we've received are true, maybe we could look at how many times Ron and Hermoine have defyed Voldemort:
1) 1st Book, Ron and Hermoine followed Harry in search of the Philosopher's Stone.
2) 2nd Book, Hermoine reffered Harry and Ron to the Chamber of Secrets, while Ron went in search of his sister.
3) 5th Book, pretty obvious.

Maybe Ron and Hermoine might have a child when the seventh month (Harry? Neville? Snape? Anyone?) dies? I dunno just a cooked out theory.

[ardnaxela]

I think this has been said, but why would JK Rowling write an ENTIRE series of books entitled "Harry Potter and..." and then turn around and not have him the "hero" of the story. It just doesnt make sense (and I know that alot of Jk's mysteries don't make sense, but as a writer it would be a waste of time to write a series depicting a main character, and hero and then have it turn around and the hero be a background character.) I agree that Neville will be important - and may be involved in the downfall of Lord Voldemort, but the hero will nonetheless be Harry Potter.

Maybe Ron and Hermoine might have a child when the seventh month (Harry? Neville? Snape? Anyone?) dies?

Unless Hermione gets pregnant during their sixth or seventh year at Hogwarts I don't think this is likely considering that each book represents a year in Harry's schooling life.

Also in reference to the Mark that Voldemort left on his equal - if the mark wasnt left on Harry (his scar) I think he would have died when the Avada Kedavra curse was cast upon him. Why do I believe this? I believe this because even though Lily died to protect Harry, I don't think that would have been enough to deflect the curse because as said in another thread (I can't remember which one) someone mentioned that surely other parents died trying to protect their children - however Harry was the only one to ever survive the Avada Kedavra curse. Also, as has been mentioned several times during the series the AK curse doesnt leave any marks, so harry shouldnt have a scar according to this, and therefore the scar is the mark that LV has left on "his equal"

I also think that the reason that Lily dying for Harry is important, not because it prevented him from being killed, but because it means that he has Love running through his veins - something that Voldemort doesnt have, and therefore "the power that the dark lord knows not."

I'm also going to tie something else in here, the glint of triumph in Dumbledore's eye at the end of GOF. I think this is because, in OOTP Voldemort couldnt stand being in Harry because he has Love flowing through him, and this is torturous to Voldemort, and now Voldemort has atiny bit of that love flowing through him so either that will
1) make him more human a not "immortal," and therefore he can be killed
or
2) he now has love in him which means that he has something that destroys him flowing through his veins

That is the ned of my theory, and i know its a bit long so sorry!

[Furienna]

Well I really don't think the one is a common child of Ron's and Hermione's. Sorry Blue Pheonix, but bhat theory is really just laughable. Not only does it suggest that Ron and Hermione became a couple, which I really don't believe will happen, but I would also want to know why Trelawney made that prophecy years, even decades, before this child could be born, when she usually predicts things that are about to happen when the prediction is made, or was she predicting the births of his parents instead of his own birth? And really, why would Harry be "the seventh month"?

[sawyer]

Well I really don't think the one is a common child of Ron's and Hermione's. Sorry Blue Pheonix, but bhat theory is really just laughable. Not only does it suggest that Ron and Hermione became a couple, which I really don't believe will happen, but I would also want to know why Trelawney made that prophecy years, even decades, before this child could be born
These are the two points of your objections that I don't understand:
1-we have many clue that makes me think Ron and Hermione will become a couple (for example, in book four Ron was extremely jealous of Krum).
2-a prophecy could be made ages before a fact really happens.
However I don't believe in Blue Phoenix theory too.
P.s. Furienna, I cannot bear you to say "laughable" to anyone's theory. :p

[GryffindorGr]

I liked the theory that Voldemort and Harry are one, there is the dark and the light extremity but then I realize, like all theories, there are small flaws--or big ones. You can't vanquish or kill off yourself even if one takes out the dark side of themselves. Even eliminating is nearly impossible. The passage of what Quirrell says, "...full of ridiculous ideas about good and evil. Lord Voldemort showed me how wrong I was. There is no good and evil, there is only power, and those too weak to seek it....since then I have served him."
p. 211. British Edition.
Since he was too weak to seek it (maybe he assumed he wasn't a weakling since he was searching for power) Quirrell ended up serving him. So how can Harry defeat Voldemort except by the obvious power of love. I think it's just more than love between his friends and love that is going on in Harry's life. I think the prophecy has to do with someone close to Harry who has turned to the dark side and Harry has to vanquish them but before he has to do that, maybe like many endings of a beautiful love story (which doesn't have to do with romance for example) Harry decides not to kill them, therefore, vanquishing whatever evil that was there. Hmm, I don't know if I made sense myself. lol.

[Evreka]

First things, first. The Prophecy was uttered in June 1980. We know this because it was told when Dumbledore were interviewing Trelawney for the job as Divination teacher at school. At the time Voldemort was the Evil, Dark Wizard, who continued to rise and get stronger and stronger... It was dark, terrible times. Sirius told us about just how dark, back in the cave in GOF once. Noone was secure and there were constantly more deaths. This is the time for the Prophecy and that is VERY important, IMO.

(1) The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches
Meaning that in June 1980, the ONLY person who can stop Voldemort isn't "there" yet. But there will come such a person, a beam of hope...

(2) ...Born to those who have thrice defied him,
In fact that ONE person, isn't even born yet. But, very probable (together with 1)), he/she will soon be. To actually vanquish Voldemort, though, this baby is likely to have to grow for quite a few years before being able to fight him and win. So in this very dark time your beam of hope is suddenly a narrow beam. The dark might reign on for years before this ONE is old enough to put a stop to it. Also, here is the first hint to identify the ONE. Only babies whose parents have escaped Voldemort three times needs to be considered. Now we readers, don't know how many parents this might apply to, but I'm pretty certain Dumbledore would have been able to find out all of them, had the Prophecy ended here.

(3) born as the seventh month dies
But it didn't. This ONE is - in June 1980 - to be borned the 31st of July 1980. This narrows the possibilities down considerably. Now this is, for certain, the last line to be overheard. Voldemort's knowledge ends here. I'll come back to that later.

Based on these three parts of the Prophecy, the wizarding world is left with few options to this ONE. At the 1st of August 1980, they were able to sum up all babies born the 31st of July whose parents had escaped Voldemort three times. The result of this survey, obviously left two baby boys: Harry Potter and Neville Longbottom. What this meant to Neville, we don't know, but in Harry's case it lead to his family hiding under a Fidelius Charm. So from the 1st of August 1980 to Halloween 1981, the wizarding world (or possibly only Dumbledore) knows only that the ONE is either of these two boys.

(4) ...and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal,
Clearly, Voldemort is to somehow recognize/acknowledge/do something so as to single this ONE out.

(5) but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not
Despite being marked as an equal, this ONE has some power Voldemort are unaware of, or does not understand.

(6) ...and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives
THIS is a very ambigeous line! Obviously it can be read in different ways. IMO, although I acknowledge there are other possiple meanings, this means that as long as they are both alive, they'll keep meating eachother, keep confronting each other and at some point only one of them will survive. And only then can the survivor go on with his life. If Voldemort survives, that's final. The only one who could destroy him failed, but if Harry survives we have no such knowledge. The Prophecy is about stopping Voldemort NOT the ONE. So, Voldemort can only be stopped by Harry, but Harry could die by any number of reasons.

(7) ...The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the Seventh month dies.
Same as 3), I get a feeling a true Prophecy repeats something before finishing. Trelawneys second Prophecy did, I think.

This also means that to Dumbledore:
The Prophecy means that of the two possibilities for the ONE, Voldemort will mark one. This one will turn into being the ONE. At Halloween 1981, Harry is marked. Although Voldemort is diminished to "nothing", thanks to the Prophecy Dumbledore and the Order are aware that this is - must be - a temporary respite. Most probably they continue to keep an eye on Neville as well, just in case. However, 10 years later Harry walks into Ollivander's shop and tries out almost every other wand in the shop. (Note that the book version is VERY different than the movie in this aspect). None of them chooses him. When he is finally presented to the "brother" wand, it turns out that's the one that suits him. Up until this moment I agree, it could still be either boy. But with this choice of the wand, I think the deal is closed. That wand was destined to belong to the ONE. (If you still find this unsatisfactory, remember the fact that Harry is also a Parseltongue.) Also, we are told at some point that the moment Harry was out of the shop, Ollivander informs Dumbledore. IMO, at this moment Dumbledore is down to one possibility on who the ONE is - Harry Potter.

Apart from that he also knows that Harry has some power that Voldemort doesn't know of and line 6) as well.

Voldemort, on the other hand:
Is aware that there are a THREAT being born the 31st of July 1980, borned to persons who has thrice escaped him. Surely he knows instantly who the possible parents are. And finding out which of them had a baby at the 31st of July can't have been difficult. So, he realises early that the THREAT is either Neville Longbottom or Harry Potter. For all that we know now, he could have meant to kill both boys. From his part of knowledge, surely his greatest chance to conquer this THREAT was to kill while the THREAT was just a baby. However this didn't work...

14 years later he rises again. He still knows about this boy, this THREAT, and he has learned that every time he tried to kill him, this THREAT managed to escape him... Even since they are now sharing the same blood... That must be a very chilling thought. He also knows that the Prophecy was longer than the part he heard. So, I don't find it the least bit surprising - or unrealistic - that he is extremely eager to find that latter part out. For all Voldemort knows, it may say that Harry can only be killed at fullmoon behind a yew tree... He might very well think that the latter part is much more informative than it is.

As a matter of fact, there is nothing to contradict that the part about Harry's secret power WOULD be completely devastating to Harry if Voldemort found out about it. It is MY firm belief, that the secret power is Harry's warm heart. His ability for emotions. As Voldemort could trick Harry by showing him Sirius tormented, I think that if he understood the amount of emotions Harry has, he could play with him much, much worse...

As this has become so long, I'll leave it here. I look forward to your comments and ideas.

[Marvolo]

This kinda confirms that Harry will die in way.
Neither can live, while the other survive.
It says nothing of the survival of the both.

[whizbang121]

First things, first. The Prophecy was uttered in June 1980.It was cold when Dumbledore went to interview Trelawney and she came to Hogwarts midyear. This we know from her interview with Umbridge. So the prophesy was given at the end of '79, soon after Harry was conceived on Halloween of that year, or in early '80. We know this because it was told when Dumbledore were interviewing Trelawney for the job as Divination teacher at school. At the time Voldemort was the Evil, Dark Wizard, who continued to rise and get stronger and stronger... It was dark, terrible times. Sirius told us about just how dark, back in the cave in GOF once. Noone was secure and there were constantly more deaths. This is the time for the Prophecy and that is VERY important, IMO.

(1) The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches
Meaning that in June 1980, the ONLY person who can stop Voldemort isn't "there" yet. But there will come such a person, a beam of hope...

(2) ...Born to those who have thrice defied him,
In fact that ONE person, isn't even born yet. But, very probable (together with 1)), he/she will soon be. To actually vanquish Voldemort, though, this baby is likely to have to grow for quite a few years before being able to fight him and win. So in this very dark time your beam of hope is suddenly a narrow beam. The dark might reign on for years before this ONE is old enough to put a stop to it. Also, here is the first hint to identify the ONE. Only babies whose parents have escaped Voldemort three times needs to be considered. Now we readers, don't know how many parents this might apply to, but I'm pretty certain Dumbledore would have been able to find out all of them, had the Prophecy ended here.

(3) born as the seventh month dies
But it didn't. This ONE is - in June 1980 - to be borned the 31st of July 1980. This narrows the possibilities down considerably. Now this is, for certain, the last line to be overheard. Voldemort's knowledge ends here. I'll come back to that later.
Based on these three parts of the Prophecy, the wizarding world is left with few options to this ONE. At the 1st of August 1980, they were able to sum up all babies born the 31st of July whose parents had escaped Voldemort three times. The result of this survey, obviously left two baby boys: Harry Potter and Neville Longbottom. What this meant to Neville, we don't know, but in Harry's case it lead to his family hiding under a Fidelius Charm. So from the 1st of August 1980 to Halloween 1981, the wizarding world (or possibly only Dumbledore) knows only that the ONE is either of these two boys.

(4) ...and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal,
Clearly, Voldemort is to somehow recognize/acknowledge/do something so as to single this ONE out.

(5) but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not
Despite being marked as an equal, this ONE has some power Voldemort are unaware of, or does not understand.

(6) ...and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives
THIS is a very ambigeous line! Obviously it can be read in different ways. IMO, although I acknowledge there are other possiple meanings, this means that as long as they are both alive, they'll keep meating eachother, keep confronting each other and at some point only one of them will survive. And only then can the survivor go on with his life. If Voldemort survives, that's final. The only one who could destroy him failed, but if Harry survives we have no such knowledge. The Prophecy is about stopping Voldemort NOT the ONE. So, Voldemort can only be stopped by Harry, but Harry could die by any number of reasons.
I suspect that "either must die at the hand of the other" means that until either Harry or Voldemort kills the other, no one else will be able to kill them. You know? I mean, I don't think anyone or anything but Voldemort can kill Harry and the reverse is also true. After the final confrontation, I don't know what might happen to the victor.
(7) ...The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the Seventh month dies.
Same as 3), I get a feeling a true Prophecy repeats something before finishing. Trelawneys second Prophecy did, I think.

This also means that to Dumbledore:
The Prophecy means that of the two possibilities for the ONE, Voldemort will mark one. This one will turn into being the ONE. At Halloween 1981, Harry is marked. Although Voldemort is diminished to "nothing", thanks to the Prophecy Dumbledore and the Order are aware that this is - must be - a temporary respite. Most probably they continue to keep an eye on Neville as well, just in case. However, 10 years later Harry walks into Ollivander's shop and tries out almost every other wand in the shop. (Note that the book version is VERY different than the movie in this aspect). None of them chooses him. When he is finally presented to the "brother" wand, it turns out that's the one that suits him. Up until this moment I agree, it could still be either boy. But with this choice of the wand, I think the deal is closed. That wand was destined to belong to the ONE. (If you still find this unsatisfactory, remember the fact that Harry is also a Parseltongue.) Also, we are told at some point that the moment Harry was out of the shop, Ollivander informs Dumbledore. IMO, at this moment Dumbledore is down to one possibility on who the ONE is - Harry Potter.

Apart from that he also knows that Harry has some power that Voldemort doesn't know of and line 6) as well.

Voldemort, on the other hand:
Is aware that there are a THREAT being born the 31st of July 1980, borned to persons who has thrice escaped him. At the risk of being picky, thrice defied Voldemort. For the Potters, just getting married might have been a defiance of Voldemort's pureblood codes. Surely he knows instantly who the possible parents are. And finding out which of them had a baby at the 31st of July can't have been difficult. So, he realises early that the THREAT is either Neville Longbottom or Harry Potter. For all that we know now, he could have meant to kill both boys. From his part of knowledge, surely his greatest chance to conquer this THREAT was to kill while the THREAT was just a baby. However this didn't work...

14 years later he rises again. He still knows about this boy, this THREAT, and he has learned that every time he tried to kill him, this THREAT managed to escape him... Even since they are now sharing the same blood... That must be a very chilling thought. He also knows that the Prophecy was longer than the part he heard. So, I don't find it the least bit surprising - or unrealistic - that he is extremely eager to find that latter part out. For all Voldemort knows, it may say that Harry can only be killed at fullmoon behind a yew tree... He might very well think that the latter part is much more informative than it is.

As a matter of fact, there is nothing to contradict that the part about Harry's secret power WOULD be completely devastating to Harry if Voldemort found out about it. It is MY firm belief, that the secret power is Harry's warm heart. His ability for emotions. As Voldemort could trick Harry by showing him Sirius tormented, I think that if he understood the amount of emotions Harry has, he could play with him much, much worse... Emotions certainly play an important role. Most of the difficult spells, especially DADA spells, seem to require a considerable amount of emotional control. And JKR mentioned in her last interview that Harry would be learning to master his emotions so that he may be of use in the coming battle. But whether the power in Harry is emotions, or even love, I have my doubts.

As this has become so long, I'll leave it here. I look forward to your comments and ideas.

[magicmaffia]

Harry feels LV's feelings, emotions, and LV feels Harry's. If the connection between them becomes stronger, maybe they will be able to feel each others physical feelings (pain(?)). If this does happen, when Harry kills LV or (vise versa) the pain that LV?Harry in the slaughter will be felt by the other in th connection; killing them both.


I know this is confusing because I know I have'nt written it in the best way I could and that it is all on chance, but I will try and explain again a bit easier:

Harry kills LV, LV experiences lots of pain in the process, Most of this pain gets felt by harry and Harry dies too.

Get it?

[whizbang121]

We know that Harry is aware of Voldemort's emotions by the pain or tingling in his scar. But I'm not sure we know that Voldemort is aware of Harry's. Voldemort has only become aware that Harry can see his thoughts half way through OotP. So it isn't clear that Voldemort knows Harry's thoughts or emotions at all. What we do know is that Harry knows Voldemort's and that Voldemort has become aware of this fact.

[Kelroy]

I'm taking the route that assumes that Harry and Voldemort are the ones being talked about in the prophecy. Jo takes a lot of twists and turns, but for Harry to not be the subject of the prophecy almost negates Harry's status as the main character of the series.

Dumbledore hints that the "power the Dark Lord knows not," is love. If it is "love" that will ultimately defeat Voldemort, what form will it take. Will Harry attempt to sacrifice himself in the name of love?

[whizbang121]

When did Dumbledore suggest that Harry's power was love? We are pretty clueless as to the nature of the Power in Harry. All we know for sure is that it's kept behind a locked door in Dept of Mysteries and Voldemort doesn't have any of it. JKR in her usual evasive style, answered a question about Harry's power by saying something like: It's what keeps him going. Not a lot of help. For all we know, Harry runs on solar energy. ;)

But I agree that the prophesy is and always was about Harry. The first line is: the one with the power. Not: two will be born and the one chosen by the dark lord will have the power. Harry had the power to vanquish the dark lord when the prophesy was made, in the winter of '79-'80.

[hesdead-dealwithit]

He went on and on in the Lost Prophecy chapter about what was behind the locked door in the DoM and then said, "it was your heart that saved you." Read that chapter again and you'll see what I mean. Dumbledore doesn't say it out and out, but he deeply implies that Harry's power is his "heart" (ie love).

[la_ginny]

Has anyone considered reading the Prophecy in light of Firenze's--"Nothing is ever certain, it takes decades to double-check readings, and even then we're often wrong" lecture? That the prophecy could be incomplete or somehow incorrect?

Just playing devil's advocate here.
But this is a great point. (Sorry if someone's already tackled this). I've always been of the philosophy that we can't take the propechy, or any prophecies, at face value. JKR tells us over and over again through her characters that "Seeing" is an imperfect type of magic. We see this through Trelawny, and later McGonagall's reaction to her predictions. And then there's Firenze, the future-teller that readers want to believe more than Trelawny, and he tells us "we're often wrong"! Hermione, who JKR tells us is like her, is incredibly doubtful of prophecies. My whole point is that I'm not sure that JKR will hinge her entire series on this type of "magic."

No doubt, I thought the revelation of the prophecy in OotP quite significant. But perhaps it serves no other purpose but to give Harry courage to do what he must.

Perhaps Harry or Voldemort will do something because of what they know about the prophecy, but it turns out it's incomplete, inaccurate, or doesn't mean what we think it does. I know this throws lots of theories out the window, so I don't profess to have my own fully backed up with canon. But I'm re-reading the series, and I plan to make notes on prophecies/future-telling.

Any thoughts?

[Furienna]

1-we have many clue that makes me think Ron and Hermione will become a couple (for example, in book four Ron was extremely jealous of Krum).
Yep, Ron seems to have had feelings for Hermione, but if he still has them, why doesn't he do anything about them? The whole OOTP went without Ron doing more in this department than scowling a little at Hermione keeping Viktor as her penfriend over the summer. OK, this was a terrible year and maybe not the best time for romance, but Harry had a kiss and a date with Cho in this book, and no one had a worse year than Harry in OOTP (save that the kiss was not very romantic and the date was a distaster and that Harry and Cho weren't meant to be). Why wouldn't Ron ask Hermione out during this whole year when he knew Harry was to go out with Cho? And anyway, Hermione suits Harry and even Viktor better than what she suits Ron, and I don't care that the second movie made another impression, the movies aren't canon. OK, I know this belongs in a love thread, but I had to get it off my chest.

2-a prophecy could be made ages before a fact really happens. However I don't believe in Blue Phoenix theory too.
Yes, but it sounded like The One was approaching, not his parents.

P.s. Furienna, I cannot bear you to say "laughable" to anyone's theory. :p
So what? Should I lie? I found it laughable. And I said I was sorry.

[whizbang121]

"Heart" can easily be interpreted as courage as well as love. But the point Dumbledore was making was that Harry's love for Sirius drove Voldemort out of his body in th MoM. If that was the power the dark lord knows not, the story would be over. I think it's some other power that will vanquish the dark lord.

[FirefightingMuggle]

I agree. I don't think that Heart is all that it will take to vanquish the dark lord. Look how many other people have gone up against him or the DE's and failed. All of them had Heart, courage, whatever, and none of them could do it. Not even Dumbledore could get rid of him.
I don't think that Love is the power either. Lily and James loved Harry, and they couldn't kill Voldemort to save their son. Dumbledore loves Harry and he can't vanquish Voldey. Look how many people have love in their hearts and have died at the hands of Voldemort.

The thing that I think is odd is that Dumbledore said that Harry is full of the power, and Voldemort does not have any of it, but Dumbledore did not say exactly what the power is. I think that he is leaving it up to Harry to figure that out. I think that what ever the power to vanquish the Dark Lord is, that Harry must have it purely. It is something that has never been corrupted in Harry.
Maybe it is life. The power of living. (I'm getting philosophical) If Voldemort doesn't have enough human in him to die, than he can't be truly alive either. Harry's ability to live and to truly want to live and to be happy and to feel things (remember Dumbledore said that feelings were what makes him Human) is the power that it takes to vanquish Voldemort. The simple ability and desire to live life and to experiance life and all it has to offer, good with the bad, to accept things as they come, to feel emotion so deep that it hurts....maybe being human and living is what it will take for Harry to vanquish Voldemort.
Not that I'm saying that others who have gone up against Voldey haven't been human, but it seems like Harry, of all the characters, has had the most to deal with, and has had to feel the broadest range of emotions. He has felt love, loss, sadness, jealousy, rage, anger, humor, pride, friendship, compassion, empathy, exhuberance, exhaustion, you name it.... In five short years, Harry has felt the broadest range of emotions of any single person in all the books. He is the most human, the most alive person out of everyone. He accepts what he is dealt and continues to go on every single day.
It's life that is the power that Voldemort knows not. True, unspoiled life.

[Furienna]

Yeah poor Harry. Who has suffered like him, huh? :upset: Well no one else we have met in these books has, all right... :grumble: Maybe that's why he has to suffer so badly... It's having felt all these emotions that will vanquish Voldemort. You may be on to something there, Firefightingmuggle.

I just got an idea. Maybe when Harry and Voldemort duels, Voldemort kills someone Harry loves, like one of his friends, maybe even his girlfriend if he has one at that point in the series. Then Harry hates Voldemort more than ever and in that rage manages to kill him, or in other words, as I believe will happen, push him through the veil. It's if Harry survives that or not that's the question.

[Polychrome]

I doubt it can be Snape--he is marked by Voldemort, but many other people have that same mark. That would make it seem that they were all marked as his equals.


No, that is how he marks his servants. It can't be Snape, but I do get the feeling Snape will be rather important later on.

[sawyer]

Yep, Ron seems to have had feelings for Hermione, but if he still has them, why doesn't he do anything about them? The whole OOTP went without Ron doing more in this department than scowling a little at Hermione keeping Viktor as her penfriend over the summer. OK, this was a terrible year and maybe not the best time for romance, but Harry had a kiss and a date with Cho in this book, and no one had a worse year than Harry in OOTP (save that the kiss was not very romantic and the date was a distaster and that Harry and Cho weren't meant to be). Why wouldn't Ron ask Hermione out during this whole year when he knew Harry was to go out with Cho? And anyway, Hermione suits Harry and even Viktor better than what she suits Ron, and I don't care that the second movie made another impression, the movies aren't canon. OK, I know this belongs in a love thread, but I had to get it off my chest.
Yes, movies aren't canon, but my opinion doesn't depend on movies. But I can't say more here, as you have already said. ;)
Now I have a little question about prophecy: could Harry and Neville have some ancient relative in common? There aren't so many wizard families, so I think it's highly possible.
P.s. Furienna, I'm sorry that I answer you only now, but I was busy with the University.

[Furienna]

Harry and Neville could sure have common ancestors some centuries ago, but what relevance would that have to this thread?

[sawyer]

Harry and Neville could sure have common ancestors some centuries ago, but what relevance would that have to this thread?
In my opinion, if their ancestors were close, it would change a little prophecy's interpretation: it's possible that Neville at least will face Voldie more than Ron and Hermione, perhaps with Harry.

[EmilyRose]

See, but the Prophecy could already have that interpretation, without any common ancestry.

[Patrice]

I think that there is nobody else that the Prophecy could ever relate to apart from Harry. Sure some people might have things in common etc. But NO ONE matches everything. I'm really looking forward to how this prophecy effects Harry and Dumbledore's relationship. Will Dumbledore take Harry even more under his wing and give him lessons on duels etc as he will have to before the end is out.

[Furienna]

In my opinion, if their ancestors were close, it would change a little prophecy's interpretation: it's possible that Neville at least will face Voldie more than Ron and Hermione, perhaps with Harry.

Even if Harry and Neville turn out to be very close relatives, like cousins or even brothers, the prophecy still doesn't say anything about Harry facing Voldemort with a relative or someone else close to him or anyone else at all.

[sawyer]

Even if Harry and Neville turn out to be very close relatives, like cousins or even brothers, the prophecy still doesn't say anything about Harry facing Voldemort with a relative or someone else close to him or anyone else at all.
It's all right, but we also know that prophecy could be not entirely true, we can always choose our destiny and so can Harry and his friends. Perhaps it's only my hope to see someone helping Harry in the final battle. ;)

[whizbang121]

I hope so too, but in all their encounters so far, Harry has somehow fended off Voldemort. He had help from Fawkes in CoS and the echoes that came out of Voldemort's wand in GoF, but Harry himself foils Voldemort.

While I believe that Harry will always need help and support, and that it will always be available to him, in the end there is only ONE with the power to defeat the Dark Lord.

[vmonte]

My personal feeling about the prophecy is that it is a
hoax, a diversion, created by someone to keep Voldemort busy and
distracted from conquering the WW. Is Trelawny really a seer? Or is
someone using her as a conduit? Is this person trying to occupy both
the DEs and the Orders time? I'm completely guessing here. It's just
that I really have something against the prophecy. It goes against
everything the books are about. Where is choice and free will? If
Voldemort had ignored the prophecy in the first place he probably
would have been better off? (It's like people who cannot start their
morning without reading their horoscope in the paper? I mean come on!
Just look how general and nondescript those horoscope readings are.)
My guess as to why DD did not want to have Divination taught in
school is because it takes away choice, peoples free will. It's like
the Mirror of Erised -- "...this mirror will give us neither
knowledge or truth. Men have wasted away before it, entranced by what
they have seen, or been driven mad, not knowing if what it shows is
real or even possible... It does not do to dwell on dreams and forget
to live, remember that." (page 213,214, U.S.)

[whizbang121]

It's just
that I really have something against the prophecy. It goes against
everything the books are about. Where is choice and free will? If
Voldemort had ignored the prophecy in the first place he probably
would have been better off? (It's like people who cannot start their
morning without reading their horoscope in the paper? I mean come on!
Just look how general and nondescript those horoscope readings are.)
My guess as to why DD did not want to have Divination taught in
school is because it takes away choice, peoples free will. It's like
the Mirror of Erised -- "...this mirror will give us neither
knowledge or truth. Men have wasted away before it, entranced by what
they have seen, or been driven mad, not knowing if what it shows is
real or even possible... It does not do to dwell on dreams and forget
to live, remember that." (page 213,214, U.S.) Where do people get the idea that the books are about choice and free will? It's one on those gaps between what the author writes and what people read. JKR said that our choices reveal us. They don't make us or lead us, nor are they the theme of the books. It's like the biblical line, "By their fruits you will know them." The point is, you can't tell much about a person by what he says or even how he behaves. But the choices he makes will reveal him.
Harry and Tom Riddle had some things in common. And Tom was a brilliant student and a charmer besides. But the choices he made revealed his true nature, just as Harry's do.

So choices and free will are a theme in many works, but not HP.

[purplehawk]

Just had to pop in here and say I do believe the books are all about choice and free will.

[vmonte]

Did you ever read a book called THE ILLUSTRATED MAN, by Ray Bradbury?
The story is about a man who meets a wanderer, an illustrated man,
covered in tattoos. Well, anyway, the tatoos are magical, they come
alive. Each tattoo tells a disturbing, or tragic story. But there
is one spot on the tatooed man's body that is blank, without a
tattoo. The illustrated man explains that that spot tells the
future; but he will not allow anyone to look there because nothing
good ever comes from looking there. Well guess what, when the
tattoed man falls asleep, the other man takes a look at the blank
spot on his back. The vision the man sees of the future is that the
tatooed man is going to kill him. The man panics and tries to kill
the tatooed man first, but the tatooed man fights back.... See where
I'm going?! The tatooed man would have never attacked this man in
the first place, he is just protecting himself.

The prophecy only unfolds the way it does because Voldemort chooses
to believe it. He makes it come true. If he had ignored it in the
first place he would have probably conquered the WW by now.

[Lucca]

Hi!

I think that the prophecy means exactly what it says.
We know that one has to overcome the other. I agree that there is a distinct possibility that the one who falls may not be destroyed in a duel or any other direct measures, but I think, based upon how Voldemort has been going after Harry, it will end with either a multi-wizard battle or a one-on-one duel. I mean, Voldemort has been getting more personal with his foe than some other dark lords I could mention. He tries to manipulates Harry's thoughts, dreams, and actions. I think that at some point he'll see that mind control is not such a great idea. If that happends, he will probably try other tactics; things like sending his Death Eaters, Nagini, Lethifolds, ect. on missions to do in our hero and his mentors. (I know I'm starting to sound like the Quibbler.)

Thanks for reading my two cents on the matter!

[sawyer]

Harry and Tom Riddle had some things in common. And Tom was a brilliant student and a charmer besides. But the choices he made revealed his true nature, just as Harry's do.

So choices and free will are a theme in many works, but not HP.

This is something like lutheran predestination, but I didn't see this in HP series, the scene of the sorting hat in book 1 in my opinion represents free will.

[roxiefire]

This is something like lutheran predestination, but I didn't see this in HP series, the scene of the sorting hat in book 1 in my opinion represents free will.
I'm sorry but Lutherans don't believe in predestination...I know that I have read that and as a Lutheran I can laugh and say that is false....
Back to the topic at hand. I agree with who said that LV makes this happen because he believes it will happen. If you know you're going to get a million dollars from the lottery at some point in your life, you may spend money on tickets trying to win. Ok, I know thats a bad example, but LV spent all this time and energy apparently trying to find Harry and/or Neville. I see Bellatrix is probably a master of torturing people and was instructed to do so by LV while he worked on Wormtail.
I'm also pretty sure Harry's parents had to know something was up because they had a secret keeper. Maybe anyone with a small child did, but I think DD might have said something, not everything, to tell them to stay protected.

*edit* Why do you think someone would get a secret keeper? I'm sure in those times the Potters were not the only ones...

[whizbang121]

Has anyone considered reading the Prophecy in light of Firenze's--"Nothing is ever certain, it takes decades to double-check readings, and even then we're often wrong" lecture? That the prophecy could be incomplete or somehow incorrect?

That's exactly how Dumbledore handles it. Phoenixsong's point was that a prophesy can only be revealed in hindsight. You can't be sure how it will unfold until after it does.

I think the predestination was the Calvinists. It has been suggested that the Church of Scotland to which JKR belongs, also subscribes to this doctrine, but I don't know that personally.

[purplehawk]

Speaking of Phoenix, where is she these days? Has anyone heard from her?

[sawyer]

I think the predestination was the Calvinists.
That's right, I was wrong. I'm sorry, roxiefire. :blush:
However I still think free will is highly important in HP series.

[whizbang121]

Purp, I never thought I'd see you in here, again. ;)

JKR said in an interview that the series is about dealing with death. Not a word about choices. But, you know, layers. :eyebrows:

The link to the interview in another thread. I'll go look for it. This is it. (http://www.cbc.ca/programs/sites/hottype_rowlingcomplete.html) GryffindorGr posted it.

[purplehawk]

Holding grudges is expensive. I can't be bothered.

And I still think it's about choices. Voldemort is the one who's going to have to deal with death - his own death - in all eventuality.

[SiriusDaBlack]

::neither can live while the other survives::

I interpret this as meaning as 'neither of them can live in peace as long as the other is around.

[Adalbert Waffling]

I don't place much importance in the prophecy. One of the central quotes, I believe, is "A wizard is what he chooses to be." This implies that a wizard controls his own life, and is not bound by a pre-set path. I think that there is only a destiny when you have decided what to do with your life.

[Furienna]

The prophecy doesn't mean there can't be choices. You can make choices and even try making sure it won't happen, but the propechy will come true anyway. King Oidipus, anyone?

[Chris Jones]

Hi!

I just wanted to go back to something FirefightingMuggle said earlier about Harry's power. His value of life, I completely agree with that. And if you think about it, there's plenty of evidence. Particularly Hermione's comments (in OotP) about Harry taking the merpeople's poem in GoF so seriously and saving Fleur's sister - which was completely unnessecary. He values life so seriously, he saved someone he didn't even know, without stopping to think that he might be being a 'prat' (as Ron put it). JKR took time to emphasise this in OotP at a crucial moment. And also, saving Wormtail. If ever Harry had an excuse not to value life, it was allowing the murder of the person who made him an orphan. Yet he even values Wormtail's life.


Maybe it is life. The power of living....

The simple ability and desire to live life and to experiance life and all it has to offer, good with the bad, to accept things as they come, to feel emotion so deep that it hurts....maybe being human and living is what it will take for Harry to vanquish Voldemort.

Quote from the interview link posted by Whiz:
JK: I think in this book too, you fully understand… With Voldemort, I didn't want to create this cardboard cutout of a baddie, where you put a black hat on him and you say 'Right, now you shoot at that guy because he's bad.'

I've never read this before, and it confirms something which has confused me since hearing the prophecy. The books are very moral, even if Rowling has said that's not what she sets out to do. She doesn't want to create a cardboard cutout of a baddie, that, as she puts it, you can shoot because he's bad. But then, how is she going to deal with the vanquishing of Voldemort or Harry?? Voldemort may not be the cardboard cutout - he's more complex than that, there are reasons and motives behind his evil. Yet, it would seem that one of them is going to be killed. If Harry kills Voldemort, whether by a mysterious power we have yet to discover, by the power of love, the value of life or simply AK (not likely) - isn't that Rowling condoning the killing of a person because he's entirely evil?? - which she obviously totally rejects.

The quote above poses real questions. How do you fulfil the prophecy, which seemingly means either the murder of Voldemort or Harry, without condoning the killing of someone?

[GryffindorGr]

I've never read this before, and it confirms something which has confused me since hearing the prophecy. The books are very moral, even if Rowling has said that's not what she sets out to do. She doesn't want to create a cardboard cutout of a baddie, that, as she puts it, you can shoot because he's bad. But then, how is she going to deal with the vanquishing of Voldemort or Harry?? Voldemort may not be the cardboard cutout - he's more complex than that, there are reasons and motives behind his evil. Yet, it would seem that one of them is going to be killed. If Harry kills Voldemort, whether by a mysterious power we have yet to discover, by the power of love, the value of life or simply AK (not likely) - isn't that Rowling condoning the killing of a person because he's entirely evil?? - which she obviously totally rejects.

The quote above poses real questions. How do you fulfil the prophecy, which seemingly means either the murder of Voldemort or Harry, without condoning the killing of someone?
Good post, Chris Jones.
Your post brought me a distant idea of one of Snape's memory in the pensieve, I think it was an image of a little boy crying and a very imposing father-like figure shouting at a woman. (I don't have the passage with me so I'm just recalling from memory)
So this seems like it could be Snape witnessing Riddle's youth? But it can't be because Riddle was an orphan
ETA: (and the age thing too although is there a possibility that since Snape was a DE that he was able to know Riddle's past? Like Harry knowing Riddle's past through a diary?) but because Rowling will give us more details on Riddle's past and upbringing in book 6--I'm sure we'll either be connected to him in a more "compassionate" way. How can we be compassionate to someone who is so casual about taking life?
The only way to be compassionate, truly and deeply is by forgiveness and taking away all the hate and negativity all has ever known....and by that in Riddle's case would be wiping out his memories. Wouldn't it?

[davickm1]

Th only thing i can say here is this:

the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies..."

In this it says that harry has the power to destroy voldemort. He has the power to. It doesnt say he will, but that he has the power to do so, which means that he only has a chance to defeat him. Only if he chooses the right path. So it doesnt say he will defeat him but that he has the power to do so.

[PLIMPY]

There was some discussion as to the choppy nature of the prophecy earlier in this thread, and I kind of thought of the dots as time differentials: the One nears...baby born...marked as equal, but baby has powers Voldemort doesn't know...death battle thing. So I kind of think that the part of the prophecy that relates to the power the Dark Lord knows not has already come to pass when Voldemort underestimated Harry as a baby. I'm not saying that he doesn't have something else or doesn't continue to have what he had before, which would aid in a battle with Voldemort as the prophecy doesn't address that.
As for the reliability of the prophecy I view prophecy as different than fortune telling and prediction, which is often discredited in the books. Not every crazy "fortune" that Trelewny spouts off is recorded in the Hall of Prophecy (or at least I don't think that it is). I personally think that it is somewhat stressed that this is different.
As to the series being about choice, I certainly see that to some extent, In CoS it is discussed that Harry is different than Voldemort because he choses to be, but I think that it is the choices the characters make that make the prophecy come true not the prophecy that makes the characters chose certain things (someone mentioned Oedipus Rex earlier and that was the first thing that came to my mind in regards to this).

[sawyer]

As to the series being about choice, I certainly see that to some extent, In CoS it is discussed that Harry is different than Voldemort because he choses to be, but I think that it is the choices the characters make that make the prophecy come true not the prophecy that makes the characters chose certain things (someone mentioned Oedipus Rex earlier and that was the first thing that came to my mind in regards to this).
I also think something similar. Is it possible that the prophecy says only the most probable future? Dumbledore said the prophecies are not always true.

[nightingale]

Well, I'm willing to bet the prophecy was more of a shocker to Harry. I mean I was kind of expecting the overall point of the prophecy. I suppose Harry knew, too. He just didn't want to think about it, but the prophecy brought the facts to life for him.

I wonder if Harry's the only one able to vanquish Voldemort, I mean it never said only, right? Personally, I think it brought more questions than answers.

Sawyer, when does Dumbledore say that?

[FredGeorge]

Not sure if this relates directly to the discussion at hand, but rather than start a new thread, this seemed like an appropriate place to post:

We know that the prophecy took place a year before Harry and Neville were born, a time where Voldermort was at the height of his powers. As members of the Order, having children would be an extremely risky proposition for Lily/James Potter and Frank/Alice Longbottom. (Apparently such considerations kept the Weasleys out the first time)

Therefore... is it possible that Dumbledore told Harry and Neville's parents about the prophecy and they... ahem... deliberately acted to fulfil the terms of the prophecy themselves? :wow:

Whether or not they decided to have Harry and Neville in order to produce "the One with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord" doesn't matter in the greater scheme of things, but I'd like to hear what others might think about it, and what Harry (and Neville's) reactions to such a revelation would be if it were true.

[Dedalus Diggle]

I thought it was made mere months before Harry and Neville were born. I'll have to go get my copy of OOTP back.

[purplehawk]

I thought it was made mere months before Harry and Neville were born. I'll have to go get my copy of OOTP back.

You're closer, Dedalus. It was the summer of 1980 and, according to Dumbledore in OotP, just a few weeks before their births. He met with Sybill in June of that year, I believe. He phrased "nearly sixteen years ago" when speaking with Harry in his office, and their meeting occurred near or at the end of June.

[whizbang121]

But wasn't it cold out at the time Dumbledore went to meet Trelawney? And I don't remember the details exactly, but I think when Umbridge asked Sibyll how long she had been at the school, her answer suggested that she had joined the staff sometime in midyear. Harry and Neville would have been conceived around Halloween 1979. So several months before they were born seems right.

JKR has said that the books are about death and dealing with death. Dumbledore's statement about choices is that they reveal who we truly are far more than our abilities. His choices aren't making Harry who he is, they are revealing who he is to us and to himself.

[phoenix41]

Maybe it's compassion/mercy. He's shown it with Pettigrew, the rescue in the lake, etc. If this is true, maybe, somehow, it will allow Harry to defeat LV but actually rescue Tom Riddle. DD seems to take in orphans and help them--Hagrid, Harry,(maybe even Snape or Filch, too.) While Tom did make the choices he did, the nature vs nurture thing put him at a disadvantage from the start. Harry identified with him and as he grows in wisdom, he may recognize that killing someone is against humanity itself. He'll get passed his emotions of anger/revenge, let his compassion and bravery prevail, and give LV/Tom a second chance as is one of DD traits. "Vanquish the Dark Lord" doesn't really indicate kill him. While jkr may intend for her hero to kill in self-defense, I think it would be a better ending to have harry use all of his strengths/abilities and reach a higher solution. Harry has had so much anquish in his life that he has learned and grown from it would seem a shame to have him use his powers and anger/revenge to kill LV even in an attempt to save the world in the end.

[purplehawk]

But wasn't it cold out at the time Dumbledore went to meet Trelawney? And I don't remember the details exactly, but I think when Umbridge asked Sibyll how long she had been at the school, her answer suggested that she had joined the staff sometime in midyear. Harry and Neville would have been conceived around Halloween 1979. So several months before they were born seems right.

Nope, it was just cold and wet - typical Brit weather. Here are the quotes:

"Voldemort tried to kill you when you were a child because of a prophecy made shortly before your birth...

"On a cold, wet night sixteen years ago, in a room above the bar at the Hog's Head Inn."

I've always taken "shortly before your birth" and "sixteen years ago" in conjunction with Dumbledore's statement of purpose - "to see an applicant for the post of Divination teacher."

He was speaking to Harry in June. "Sixteen years ago" would mean summer. "Shortly before your birth" would still mean summer, but earlier than July 31. And the fact he was interviewing had to mean school had just broken for summer, or was about to break.

[Furienna]

"Vanquish the Dark Lord" doesn't really indicate kill him.

Nope. But the prophecy also says "And either must die at the hand of the other", so at least one of them has to die because of the other.

[whizbang121]

Maybe it's compassion/mercy. He's shown it with Pettigrew, He wasn't so interested in showing Pettigrew mercy as he was in preventing his parent's friends from becoming murders.

It's not cold in June, even if Britain. And sixteen years might not mean to the month.

[onetruegryffindor]

`The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches; born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies; and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not; and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives; the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies …'

sorry. i needed to write it out again.
the important bit has to be the bit in bold italics yes?

[purplehawk]

It's not cold in June, even if Britain. And sixteen years might not mean to the month.

Maybe it's all relative, Whiz. I can remember wet 40° nights in June right here at home - where the average temperature is considerably higher than it is in Britain.

[Hatake Kakashi]

"The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies...and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not...and either must die at the hand of the other, for neither can live while the other survives...the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies..."

Let's see...

Okay, right, well... It's quite obvious that Harry's parents escaped the Dark Lord three times, but what happened those three times are still unclear. Then it says the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, that would be his scar. But then he gave Harry some unknown power, more pointedly the ability to speak Parseltongue and a certain strength over the Dark Arts. Then there is the fact that either Harry must be killed by the Dark Lord, or otherwise the Dark Lord must be killed by Harry. And although the both of them are still alive, it's becoming quite difficult for the both of them to live a normal life, now isn't it? I mean, Harry is going to be protected on all sides at all times, and the Dark Lord can't go about his business in secret anymore.

Hm... pretty unclear...

[whizbang121]

Early in the OotP school year, before the winter holidays, Trelawney tells Umbridge that she has been teaching at Hogwarts nearly 16 years. That puts it at 1979-1980. I don't know. If it was cold and rainy, it might have even been in autumn of 1979. I just don't think it was so close to June 1980. It might have been closer to the time the boys were conceived, or shortly after.

[Lanc]

Dumbledore says the prophecy was made shortly before Harry was born. Surely shortly would have to mean it was a few months at most before the end of July?

[purplehawk]

We've had this argument before... the basis of which is Dumbledore's statement that it was a "cold, wet night." I don't think that necessarily means autumn or winter, particularly in Britain where people wear cover-ups throughout the summer in the evenings. Or at least they did when I last visited the island.

The books have more or less shown us that Dumbledore staffs vacant positions over the summer. We've seen him doing it with the DADA teachers and with Hagrid after Professor Kettleburn "retired at the end of last year in order to enjoy more time with his remaining limbs."

[Chris Jones]

We've had this argument before... the basis of which is Dumbledore's statement that it was a "cold, wet night." I don't think that necessarily means autumn or winter, particularly in Britain where people wear cover-ups throughout the summer in the evenings.

I agree with Purplehawk. I live in Britain, and believe me, the description of the weather on any given day is by no means an indication of the time of year! If it's raining - that could be anytime!! Summer, Autumn, Winter - it doesn't matter. It rains all the time. 'Changeable weather conditions' just doesn't do it justice.

[purplehawk]

Hi Chris! Long time, no see. You speak of British weather... we took a vacation to Britain and Ireland some years ago. The thing I recall most vividly was the rain. No matter what we did, or where we went that summer, we were soon in a state of wetness... sometimes just damp, other times thoroughly drenched. I gave up trying to look cute after the second day in London.

[whizbang121]

Dumbledore says the prophecy was made shortly before Harry was born. Surely shortly would have to mean it was a few months at most before the end of July?
I think Dumbledore only says "On a cold, wet night sixteen years ago." Not a whole lot of help there. Oh well. I forgot why it's important. :blush:

[purplehawk]

He says both, Whiz. The "cold, wet night" comment is on page 840. "Voldemort tried to kill you when you were a child because of a prophecy made shortly before your birth" appears on page 839.

[onetruegryffindor]

sorry i'm lost what's the significance of the "cold, wet night" ???

[purplehawk]

If you'll read up ^, you'll see the discussion was centered on pinpointing when Sybill's prophecy was actually given.

[onetruegryffindor]

oh i see...
i dont want to sound dense but how does the precise timing have any significance?
i was under the impression that the important piece of information was the prophecy itself?

[whizbang121]

Me, too.


But Trelawney was inspected (page 314, OotP) before the first Hogsmeade weekend when the DA was organised. At that time she told Umbridge she'd been at Hogwarts nearly 16 years. It was after this and ... on a wild, blustery evening at the end of September ... that Hermione again broached the subject of Harry teaching DADA.
The first Hogsmeade weekend was on the first weekend in Oct in OotP, (pg 332).. On the following Monday, the High Inquisitor abolished all clubs and teams. The trio go to History of Magic where Hedwig arrives, injured. After History the proceed to Potions where there is a rukkus and Snape is inspected. After lunch, near as I can tell the same Monday after the Hogsmeade weekend, Harry and Ron go to Divination where Trelawney is wailing. "I say nothing," she choked, "of sixteen years' devoted service. . . ."

If it was indeed sixteen years at that point, then Trelawney was appointed in the fall of 1979 and the prophesy may even have been made before Halloween, more than nine months before Harry and Neville were born.

[sfaist]

I think people are getting a little too wrapped up on when exactly the prophecy happened. The term DD uses "shortly before" is a subjective term. DD's view of ShortTerm could be 1 year (he is afterall around 150 years old is he not). Heck he had a friend (Nicholas Flammel) who was over 600. I fail to see the significance of whether the prophecy was 9 months before Harry was born or 1 day before.

One thing I thought of is what if Harry learns to start sending images to Voldemort. I view "the power" to be love and think of Voldemort's pain if Harry started sending him imagery of love.

Another clue that makes me think that Harry will not kill Voldemort is DD's repeated statements that there are worse things than death. However, Harry will have to destroy Voldemort in some manner. It's not like a prison could hold Voldemort.

[whizbang121]

:lol: You have no idea how picky we can get in this thread. Some of us actually own hair splitters. ;)

[Flee From Death]

Therefore... is it possible that Dumbledore told Harry and Neville's parents about the prophecy and they... ahem... deliberately acted to fulfil the terms of the prophecy themselves?

This is what started people asking when the prophecy was made. Obviously if FredGeorge's prediction is correct the prophecy would have had to been made at least 9 months before the end of July.

In OotP Dumbledore says he heard the prophecy

"On a cold, wet night sixteen years ago, in a room above the bar at the Hog's Head Inn"

OotP, p740, UK edition

A discussion has been ongoing as to whether cold and wet implies it happenned in winter. I will point out here that I live in Ireland, only about 30 miles from Scotland, and last night it rained, and the temperature got down to 2C (about 35-40F, I believe).


On another note I'd like to reply to Furienna comment much higher up this page:

The prophecy [also] says "And either must die at the hand of the other", so at least one of them has to die because of the other.

Remember the prophecy refers to "The One" and "The Dark Lord", not Harry Potter and Lord Voldemort. It is possible to infer from this that it is only that persona which has to be killed, and not the person, i.e. only the power which makes them "The One" or "The Dark Lord" and not Harry or Voldemort has to be defeated. Obviously I don't know if this is what JKR meant to imply, but I'd say it's certainly a reasonable inference to draw, giving the information we currently have.

Maline Freden (who I believe came up with the idea) explains it much better than I just did and she posted the editorials she wrote on this for Mugglenet earlier in this thread.

[Chris Jones]

The power Harry possesses:
There has been loads of discussion about what the 'power the Dark Lord knows not' actually is, e.g. love, compassion, bravery, value of life etc. etc. But what is everyone's opinion on the following things, most of which I'm not sure about:

Is the 'power the Dark Lord knows not' the same power Dumbledore describes to Harry as being locked in a room in the DoM?

We know that the power is not possessed by Voldemort, but is it entirely unique to Harry, or unique in the 'such quantities' Dumbledore describes?

Or if it isn't unique to Harry, is it because of their connection via the scar, that only Harry can harness it to vanquish Voldemort?

The reason I suggest that perhaps it's not unique, is that I question whether Dumbledore attempted to use that power against Voldemort in the MoM. When Voldemort suggests that Dumbledore is above the brutality of murder, Dumbledore suggests there are 'things much worse than death'. Is this the same as the power in the locked room, and if it is, was Dumbledore trying to use it then? If he was, why would he try to use it if he knows only Harry can kill Voldemort?

What the hell could be much worse than death?? Is JKR more likely to create a fictional power or something more conventional that we've already discussed (like love, compassion)? Is it likely the power will be linked to the green eyes, because from her answers in interviews, it seems inevitable that this has to become part of the story sometime soon.

Do you think Dumbledore will now become much more involved in Harry's life, and begin teaching Harry and helping him to use whatever power it is that he possesses?

How long into Book 6 will it take, do you think, for Harry to tell people about the prophecy? Will he tell Ginny, Luna, and Neville as well as Ron and Hermione?

Did the Order not know they were guarding a prophecy? Dumbledore said it was entirely his fault that Harry never found out that he was the only person that could kill Voldemort. So did they just think they were guarding the DoM or a prophecy whose contents they weren't told? What did Sirius mean by the 'stealth' business at the beginning of OotP?

[whizbang121]

Maybe the power that Harry has and Voldemort doesn't is the power to vanquish the Dark Lord. This, of course, is only possible if Tom Riddle is being possessed by some kind of demonic Dark Lord being and is therefore a seperate entity.
We danced all around that one for months and I don't think we ever reached a conclusion.

If anyone is interested in mining for ideas and theories, may I highly recommend the history of magical reference books. (http://www.cosforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=97) The prophesy threads are still good reading.

[purplehawk]

Whiz, I see where you're coming from now. I guess we have to decide who to believe - Sybill or Albus Dumbledore.


She says "sixteen years of devoted service" on the Monday after Halloween.

Seven or eight months later, in June, he says the hiring interview occurred "nearly sixteen years ago," "shortly before your birth."

Whiz is correct about the link posted above, though. For those of you interested in pursuing the prophecy-and-or-power issues, please check out this link (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=18280&highlight=Prophecy). Whiz, they got rid of I and III. Only II is left in the library. :upset:

[bubblesarah]

We know its love that Harry has, dd even says so. Voldemort doesn't understand love he's been deprived of ity ALL jhis life another y the are both opposits.

[bubblesarah]

There are things worse then death though. Like exsisting with out your soul. Or being tormented think about it. being in countinuos pain from the crustaus curse or something. ior being mad or trapped in your opwn mind.

[Chris Jones]

Maybe the power that Harry has and Voldemort doesn't is the power to vanquish the Dark Lord. This, of course, is only possible if Tom Riddle is being possessed by some kind of demonic Dark Lord being and is therefore a seperate entity.

Why??

[whizbang121]

We know its love that Harry has, dd even says so. Voldemort doesn't understand love he's been deprived of ity ALL jhis life another y the are both opposits.

That would be nice and may in fact, be true. But in reality we 're just not sure what power the one has that the dark lord knows not.



Maybe the power that Harry has and Voldemort doesn't is the power to vanquish the Dark Lord. This, of course, is only possible if Tom Riddle is being possessed by some kind of demonic Dark Lord being and is therefore a seperate entity.

Why??

I see your point. :blush:

[Furienna]

Whiz, I see where you're coming from now. I guess we have to decide who to believe - Sybill or Albus Dumbledore.
She says "sixteen years of devoted service" on the Monday after Halloween.
Seven or eight months later, in June, he says the hiring interview occurred "nearly sixteen years ago," "shortly before your birth."[/list]

OK, that was weird... JKR must have made a mistake there. :whistle:

[rotsiepots]

Whiz, I see where you're coming from now. I guess we have to decide who to believe - Sybill or Albus Dumbledore.


She says "sixteen years of devoted service" on the Monday after Halloween.

Seven or eight months later, in June, he says the hiring interview occurred "nearly sixteen years ago," "shortly before your birth."

Whiz is correct about the link posted above, though. For those of you interested in pursuing the prophecy-and-or-power issues, please check out this link (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=18280&highlight=Prophecy). Whiz, they got rid of I and III. Only II is left in the library. :upset:

Both make sense. Trelawney had, by that point been in the service of Hogwarts for sixteen years. Dumbledore interviewed her in 1980 (the year of Harry's birth), thus she started working for Hogwarts in the 1980/81 school year.

Sooo, as the OotP school year occurred over 1995/96 school year, Trelawney's assertion makes perfect sense. The beginning of the 1995 school year was the start of her 16th year in service of the school. Count 'em up if you don't believe me. :)

1980/81
1981/82
1982/83
1983/84
1984/85
1985/86
1986/87
1987/88
1988/89
1989/90
1990/91
1991/92 (PS)
1992/93 (CoS)
1993/94 (PoA)
1994/95 (GoF)
1995/96 (OotP)

[Drusilla]

Just a question about Seers: we know they possess power in varying degrees: Trelawney's great-grandmother Cassandra must have actually made a fair few prophecies if she was so famous,while most people (thanks to the fact that Dumbledore kept her only two prophecies to date under wraps,plus the obvious fakeness otherwise) think Trelawney herself is a fraud.
My question is,do some Seers have control over their powers? We know Trelawney doesn't have any:she doesn't even remember her prophecies after she's made them.Does she even know of her first prophecy-the reason she's employed at Hogwarts?Given her attitude to Harry,I think not.

[Furienna]

Oh, I'm re-reading PS while the pages are uploading right now. :D But now let's get to business.

Rotisepots: Thank you! That makes sense and explains a lot!

Drusilla: You might be right too... Trelawney doesn't seem to know about any of these prophecies. Hmmm...

[PaDfOoT5]

Dumbledore probably hired Trewlaney to keep her around, just in case another prophecy is made..

[rotsiepots]

My question is,do some Seers have control over their powers? We know Trelawney doesn't have any:she doesn't even remember her prophecies after she's made them.Does she even know of her first prophecy-the reason she's employed at Hogwarts?Given her attitude to Harry,I think not.

I don't think so. I think Sybill attempts to give the impression that she can control her "powers", but in reality I don't think any Seer can (which is what makes Trelawney such an obvious fraud). Sybill seemed to lose control of her mind and body when she gave the one prophecy that we've witnessed so far (we weren't actually present at her first prophecy, so it doesn't count). I think most Seers probably go through the same process, but just more regularly.

Sybill is a sporadic Seer. ;)

[purplehawk]

Are seers known to be prolific, though? Don't most of them make just a few prophecies over the course of their lifetimes?

[rotsiepots]

Are seers known to be prolific, though? Don't most of them make just a few prophecies over the course of their lifetimes?

Well, they would have to be otherwise Sybill Trelawney wouldn't be the insecure cheese puff that she is. If true Seers only made one or two correct predictions in their lifetime, then Sybill would be amongst the finest in existence.

Respected, "true" Seers must be able to divine and make more prophecies than Sybill. Whether that's through correctly reading tea leaves, or cystal balls, or through Sybill's strange "out of body" predictions, they must be better at their craft than Sybill.

[harlle15]

the prophecy was kinda cool... and the meaning of it is just simple but when you read it in a deeper sense you'll get what it really means... im confused coz in the prophecy this was what written..........

SPT to APWBD
(?) Dark Lord
and Harry Potter

im confused what's the meaning of letter P in SPT...???// ciao!

[Silkeng]

im confused what's the meaning of letter P in SPT...???// ciao!

That one is easy it is the initials for Sybil Trewalney S.P.T. P is for whatever her middle name is.(and yes i know i can't spell her last name).

The prophecy seems much deeper than it looked upon first reading it in Ootp. I have reread it several times and I am still not sure what Harry's power is and how he will be able to use it. It is always frustrating that Harry never asks the questions i want to ask. I hope it is fleshed out more in the next book.

[Chris Jones]

the prophecy was kinda cool... and the meaning of it is just simple but when you read it in a deeper sense you'll get what it really means... im confused coz in the prophecy this was what written..........

SPT to APWBD
(?) Dark Lord
and Harry Potter

im confused what's the meaning of letter P in SPT...???// ciao!

Sybil Patricia Trelawney to Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore. (What a name!)

[purplehawk]

Where did Patricia come from?

[mevam]

I was thinking a bit about the message behind the prophecy, and reading about Harry's reaction to him being condemned to be either a murderer or a victim made me wonder if there was another way out. Fate is a powerful force, and to see it carried out in the final books with the death of either Harry Potter or Voldemort wouldn't be following the series' history of promoting the idea that everyone has a choice.

"[The Sorting Hat] only put my in Gryffindor," said Harry in a defeated voice, because I asked not to go in Slytherin." "Exactly," said Dumbledore, beaming once more. "Which makes you very different from Tom Riddle. It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."


Will Harry have a choice in his actions, or will fate prevail? It will be interesting to see how this plays out in the next two books.

[Chris Jones]

Where did Patricia come from?

The World Book Day chat with JKR. I don't think the name is anywhere in the books.

World Book Day transcript (http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrwbd.shtml)

[purplehawk]

Thanks, Chris! :tu:

[whizbang121]

I was thinking a bit about the message behind the prophecy, and reading about Harry's reaction to him being condemned to be either a murderer or a victim made me wonder if there was another way out. Fate is a powerful force, and to see it carried out in the final books with the death of either Harry Potter or Voldemort wouldn't be following the series' history of promoting the idea that everyone has a choice.



Will Harry have a choice in his actions, or will fate prevail? It will be interesting to see how this plays out in the next two books.There are the choices again. JKR said herself that the series is about death and dealing with death. It's not about choices in more that a general way. That line is so misunderstood, taken out of context and blown out of proportion. Dumbldeore was trying to explain to Harry why, in spite of all they had in common, he was not anything like Tom Riddle.

Our choices reveal us more than our abilities do. Our choices show who and what we really are. They don't make us who and what we are. Our choices are the result of our character, not the cause of it.

But if we want to take that a step further, notice the choices characters make and the reasons they make them. It should be revealing, particularly in the cases of characters who's actions seem opposite to their seeming character. First one that comes to mind is Snape.

But back to the prophesy....

[silver ink pot]

This is totally out there, but I just searched for the letters "SPT" and it turns out to be the name of a railroad and bus company in Scotland and Britain:

http://www.spt.co.uk/About/index.html

SPT invests in rail, bus, Subway and ferry services for 42% of the nation’s population. We finance rail services in the west of Scotland and set the fares and timetables. We run the Subway, the Renfrew-Yoker ferry, Ring ‘n’ Ride and the Dial-a-Bus service. And on top of all that, we also subsidise approximately 190 bus services, covering areas where it would not be commercially viable for a private bus company to operate. Every year, we join up around 120 million journeys.


This just struck me as funny, since we know of JKR's love of trains!

Also, we know that Dumbledore has the scar that is a map of the London Underground on his leg.

So "SPT to APWBD" almost reads like a railroad schedule. Take the SPT to . . . where? The London Underground? I told you this was pretty far out, but it is just so sly.

[whizbang121]

I'm impressed. I know it's not about the prophesy, but the underground is fascinatating. Might need a thread of its own.

[jen15poms]

"The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies...and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not...and either must die at the hand of the other, for neither can live while the other survives...the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies..."

I really do not think that it could be Snape, for a number of reasons. First of all, all of the Death Eaters have Voldemort's mark on their arm, so what would make it any different for Snape?

Also, the prophecy says that "the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches" This prophecy was made many years after Snape had already been born.

Here are some quotes from the text that I find to be important in this discussion...


"The thing that smashed was merely a record of the prophecy kept by the Dept. of Mysteries. But the prophecy was made to somebody, and that person has the means of recalling it perfectly."
"Who heard it?"
"I did," said Dumbledore. "On a cold, wet night sixteen years ago, in a room above the bar at the Hog's Head Inn."
....................................
"It meant," said Dumbledore, "that the person who has the only chance of conquering Lord Voldemort for good was born at the end of July, nearly sixteen years ago."
....................................
"I'm afraid," said Dumbledore slowly, looking as though every word cost him great effort, "that there is no doubt that it is you."

Although the theory presented certainly is an interesting idea to think about, I think that JK has made it very clear that Harry is the person to whom the prophecy refers.

[onyxmoon]

i'm interested though in all this fate thing. is fate inevitable? no matter what choices you make you'll end up as prophecized. is it just a misconception that a person has the abillity to choose and change his fate?

[Furienna]

There are the choices again. JKR said herself that the series is about death and dealing with death. It's not about choices in more that a general way. That line is so misunderstood, taken out of context and blown out of proportion. Dumbldeore was trying to explain to Harry why, in spite of all they had in common, he was not anything like Tom Riddle. Our choices reveal us more than our abilities do. Our choices show who and what we really are. They don't make us who and what we are. Our choices are the result of our character, not the cause of it. But if we want to take that a step further, notice the choices characters make and the reasons they make them. It should be revealing, particularly in the cases of characters who's actions seem opposite to their seeming character. First one that comes to mind is Snape. But back to the prophesy....
Good point! :agree: :clap: :tu:
This is totally out there, but I just searched for the letters "SPT" and it turns out to be the name of a railroad and bus company in Scotland and Britain:

http://www.spt.co.uk/About/index.html


This just struck me as funny, since we know of JKR's love of trains!

Also, we know that Dumbledore has the scar that is a map of the London Underground on his leg.

So "SPT to APWBD" almost reads like a railroad schedule. Take the SPT to . . . where? The London Underground? I told you this was pretty far out, but it is just so sly.
Who knows?
I'm impressed. I know it's not about the prophesy, but the underground is fascinatating. Might need a thread of its own.
I don't see why not.
i'm interested though in all this fate thing. is fate inevitable? no matter what choices you make you'll end up as prophecized. is it just a misconception that a person has the abillity to choose and change his fate?
I think it's a mix between choices and fate. However, whatever Harry does, he will have to fight Voldemort in one final battle. The question is whether Harry survives it or not.

[whizbang121]

i'm interested though in all this fate thing. is fate inevitable? no matter what choices you make you'll end up as prophecized. is it just a misconception that a person has the abillity to choose and change his fate?Remember Oedipus? His father tried to interfere with the fulfillment of the prophesy, and when he became an adult he left home for the same reason. :rolleyes: The prophesy was fulfilled in its entirety in spite of their efforts. There were places along the way where other choices might have affected the hows, whys and wherefores, but a prophesy will be fulfilled.
Trelawney's prophesy is still in the process of unfolding, and will ultimtely be fulfilled completely. It's possible that choices will play a part in how they will unfold. For example, if Voldemort had waited ten or twenty years before he attacked Harry, events would no doubt have been very different. But, sooner or later, the dark lord would have to mark the one his equal, transferring his abilities in the process. Choices can affect the chain of events and in the case of this prophesy which states "either must die at the hand of the other", choices may affect the outcome. But, unlike a horoscope or tealeaf reading, a prophesy must be fulfilled.

[onyxmoon]

exactly what i meant. you only believe that you can do something to change the fate when in reality it's all inevitible.

[Strife_Granger]

actually i think that neville will play a key role in the outcome but i dont think he was the true prophecy. think about this: in th wizarding world things dont normally happen by chance every happens for a reason, the prophecy said that lord v would mark the one as his equal and not only does harry have the mark but he has some of lord v's powers and shares his brother wand. also lord v is very smart so i dont think he would have killed james & lily without good info remember Dumble D once said that lord v rarely killed people personally unless he had very very very good reason to do so. and he didnt even killed nev's parents he didnt even see them he got death eaters to torture them into insanity, i think that nev's parents knew somthing very critical to lord v's plans but they woudnt tell thats why they were tortuted and not killed by all means though neville is very likely to play a big role

[bubblesarah]

we will evetnually find out plus isn't harry's ability to love aND that he has a heart that was also a key we were give in OOTP? DD said so

[DeathEaterRon]

where did DD say that V only killed if he had to? I don't doubt it, but it will be hard to find, and I want to find that passage.

[purplehawk]

It certainly will be hard to find - as Dumbledore never said anything remotely like that. Sirius said Alastor Moody only killed if he had to in GoF, in the chapter called "Padfoot Returns."

[LilyEvans]

I have a suggestion.

The 'power the Dark Lord knows not'. Now, we know this so far:

It resides in the Dept of Mysteries - well, according to Dumbledore.

Love, seems a little - generic, IMO. Maybe we need a better word here.

Like compassion. Or possibly Humanity. The power to love another selflessly, with no thought of your own gain; more,

"love is patient, love is kind, it does not boast, it is not proud or self-seeking...." than the kind of superficial romantic love the term usually implies.

Am I making any sense?

[Flee From Death]

Yes. You mean self-sacrificing love, love which asks nothing in return? I would say that there are very few people who have that, and I would certainly say that it's something Harry has in spades and Voldemort has not at all.


This is a quote I found in OotP:

"No, he [Regulus Black] was murdered by Voldemort. Or on Voldemort's orders, more likely; I doubt Regulus was ever important enough to be killed by Voldemort in person."

-Sirius Black to Harry Potter, 'The Noble and Most Ancient House of Black', OotP, p104UK

Is that the passage you were thinking of Strife_Granger?

[LilyEvans]

Stife_Granger, I think Voldemort possibly only killed people who he believed to be real threats - the less important ones he left to his Death Eaters. Flee from Death, I thought the above quote came from Sirius when he and Harry were looking at the Black family tapestry?

[aliceband]

All the hardships harry has and is going through are stiffling his life which is what the prophecy said, they cannot live while the other survives. i think it's silly that the only reason for harrys parents death, Neville's parent, and many other things is b/c of a prophecy there has to be more to Voldemorts motivation than just the prophecy but i supose that kind of thing has happened befor like for Perseus in Ancient Greek Mythology : Danae perseus's mother and her infant baby had been put in a trunk and set afloat to sea (in hopes of them dieing) by her father b/c there was a prophecy that someday perseus would kill his grandfather. after many journey's perseus ends up accidentaly killing his grandfather with a discus that flew beyond the limits of the feild and hit the man.

[Furienna]

Not to mention the prophecy about Oidipus killing his father and marrying his mother. His parents made it so that he would die in the wilderness, so that this wouldn´t have to happen, but the baby boy was saved and adopted away to another greek state. Years later, he killed his own father and married his mother and even had children with her. The real parents thought this son of their was dead and Oidipus himself believed that his adoptive parents were his real parents.

[ShadowMagic]

I believe what the prophecy is really trying to say is dat two wizards will be born at the end of the seventh month and of those parents in which they have escaped Lord voldemort three times. We don't know which one it is but the other part of the prophecy says that "and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal" which means he chose Harry in doing so he chose the child in which he thought was greater danger to him. I wonder why he didn't chose Neville (pure-blood) and chose Harry instead sice there both Half-blood. :) It also says Harry has a power far greater and that power voldemort despices which can mean that that power may be able to help him fight off voldemort. Then it goes on my saying "for neither can live while the other survives" which means he will have to be either the victim or the murderer. But i believe apart from the prophecy that their will be help given to Harry. Aunt Petunia may be a squib and may offer help of some kind. She is the sister of Lily so their might be some powers she has that she hasn't noticed yet. Maybe at the end of the book malfoy and harry wil team up..... it is possible, but we still don't have enough evidence to prove dat. It was mentioned in chapter 36 of OotP that there is a power in the department of mysteries that is always locked, could this be the power that the prophecy is mentiong "will have power the Dark Lord knows not"..... There are many possible ideas that come of it . but there is just only one real answer and only Rowling knows what it is... :(

[Ilith]

Sorry if anyone has already posted this thought.

Harry notices during one of the Occlumency lessons how Snape refers to Voldemort as the ''Dark Lord''. Then he tells Snape that he has only heard Death Eaters call him that.
Why does the ''Dark Lord'' appear also in the Prophecy? I am NOT saying that Professor Trelawney is a Death Eater. Any thoughts?

[michaela]

I have never thought aboout Trelawney being a death eater, but I doubt she would be. I think she said the "Dark Lord" as she was saying the prophecy and talking about "Voldermort", but saying his name would not make him sound as evil as he really is. If he is a Lord he is almighty, and really powerful, and by using the words the "Dark Lord" it portrays how powerful and evil Voldermort really is. In the prophecy it is talking about "the ONE with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord", this ONE is appearing very special if this person is able to vanquish Voldermort.
Also people usually say Dark Lord when they really realise his power, even if it is evil.

[purplehawk]

Dumbledore even referred to him once as "the dark lord" when discussing the prophecy with Harry.

Sybill referred to him as he-who-must-not-be-named after giving the second prophecy in Harry's presence.

[Marisa]

I think that many people referred to him as the dark lord b/c that's what he was, a dark lord, and it would get a bigger point across rather than saying he-who-must-not-be-named, b/c most people were afraid to call him Voldemort.

[Ilith]

I am copying this from a thread that was closed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tttiiimmmmmmyyy
Couldn't Harry's first defeat of Voldemort have fulfilled the prophecy?
and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not...
the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies..."


Maybe Harry still has to obtain the power mentioned in the Prophecy, has to grow it inside himself.
But..... the first sentence quoted could mean that when the 'Dark Lord marked him as his equal', he already had the power, which goes well with the second sentence that says that he is already born with the power. Or not?

[meg2101]

I am copying this from a thread that was closed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tttiiimmmmmmyyy
Couldn't Harry's first defeat of Voldemort have fulfilled the prophecy?
and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not...
the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies..."


Maybe Harry still has to obtain the power mentioned in the Prophecy, has to grow it inside himself.
But..... the first sentence quoted could mean that when the 'Dark Lord marked him as his equal', he already had the power, which goes well with the second sentence that says that he is already born with the power. Or not?


I believe that Harry has to learn about the power himself, with the help of friends and teachers. Later on, when he is once again forced into battle with Voldemort, he will have to unleash what has been inside him forever without his knowing, and ultimately prove to himself that he can make the prophecy true.

[daz]

shadowmagic Jo has said time and time again molfoy will not turn out nice.As jo said in an interview tom falton may be good looking but that has nothing to do with her books and she said this because she was sick and tired of people thinking harry and malfoy will team up there is no way in hell that will happen in book 6 or 7

[whizbang121]

Old stuff alert.
.
What if when Voldemort's spell backfired, he went to a stage that Dumbledore refers to as worse than dead. He was riped from his body in agony. He was less that the meanest ghost. Even Voldemort didn't know what he was or which spell had kept him from death. The other thing "worse than death" is the dementor's kiss. And remember when Hargrid said he didn't think there was enough left of Voldemort to die?


page (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?p=610050&highlight=check#post610050)

If Harry is alive and Voldemort is worse than dead, it looks like the "...neither may live while the other survives...." clause is fulfilled. So let's see.

1. The one with power to vanquish the dark lord approaches__________check
2. Born to those who have thrice defied him _______________________check
3. Born as the seventh month dies_______________________________ check
4. And the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal______________________check
5. But he will have power the dark lord knows not___________________check
6. And either must die at the hand of the other ___
7. For neither can live while the other survives______________________check


Perhaps the only part of the prophesy unfulfilled is the "either must die...." clause. If that's the case, maybe it's necessary for Voldemort to become fully human again, alive so that he can actually die.

Seven parts to the prophesy. Seven years. Seven steps in alchemy. :eyebrows:

[daz]

shadowmagic Jo has said time and time again molfoy will not turn out nice.As jo said in an interview tom falton may be good looking but that has nothing to do with her books and she said this because she was sick and tired of people thinking harry and malfoy will team up there is no way in hell that will happen in book 6 or 7



i have the quoted the wrong 1 good point whizbang

[PhoenixRising]

Prophecies tend to do one of three things, which can all be illustrated by the famous Delphic Oracle of ancient Greece.

First, they often mislead. A king, who was thinking of invading his neighbour, asked the Oracle what would happen. The answer ("a great kingdom would be destroyed") encouraged him to attack. Unfortunately, he lost the war and his own kingdom. It's important to look at all angles, and not read into it what you wish to be true.

Secondly, they provide clues that are so obscure no one realises until after the events have occurred. The Athenians, fearing invasion, asked the Oracle what to do. No one understood the answer ('rely on your wooden walls' - Athens' walls were made of stone) until after the populace had saved itself by taking to sea in the city's fleet, which also subsequently destroyed the invaders at sea.

Thirdly, the prophecy describes some characteristic that marks out an individual who will achieve something, but the kind of individual that would achieve that something would have to have that characteristic. For example, the Oracle prophesied that the individual who could unravel the Gordian knot would conquer the world. Many tried, and failed, until Alexander (later 'the Great' after conquering the world) chopped it in two with his sword. His ability to see the heart of a problem and his lateral thinking to solve it was what made him one of - most people think, the - finest generals in history.

Before analysing the prophecy in these terms, it’s worth considering what a prophecy is. Most people think it’s a kind of precognition. I.e. a sense – of what the future is. This could be because the future already exists, and the prophesier simply sees it. Alternatively, there could be a supreme being who has it all planned out and has passed on a message as to what those plans are. Or, there are forces at work in the world, which are bound to produce a particular result, no matter what decisions people make, and the prophesier is just better at spotting the initial patterns. This is similar to those chess problems that say: ‘White to play and win in five moves’. Black can make whatever moves he wants (subject to what’s possible), but it’s still ‘white to play and win in five moves’.

But the second possibility is that it is a kind of power – the prophesier is making the future. They will it into being. I suspect that this is the nature of prophesying that JKR is using in her books. It does bring free will more to the fore (rather than predestination), both because of what the prophesier does, but also because it can be countered or modified by someone else’s will.

The prophesier we know we have seen (Trelawney) and the one I think we have seen (Ron – check out how often his statements on the future come true) both don’t know when they are prophesying. Trelawney goes into a trance and Ron throws them out in general conversation. This suggests that the power is subconscious – and we all know how powerful our subconscious desires are.

The prophecies will also tend to involve something that the prophesier wants. Trelawney made her first when Voldemort was on his rampage. She – romantic that she is – probably wished for a heroic figure to come and save the day. Ron’s tend to be what you’d expect from a teenage boy.

As they’re from the subconscious, they’ll also be inchoate (compare dreams). So, they’ll tend to be somewhat metaphorical. And the result they produce might be a bit random as to what the prophesier actually desires (“be careful what you wish for”).

This would be a very great power, of course. People who are good at a rare ability tend not to be good at everything else. Trelawney seems useless most of the time. Ron (whose prophesies seem much smaller scale, and more mundane, than her ‘future of the world’ type – again, fits their characters) is hardly the most proficient wizard. (NB It’s important for Ron’s character that he has an ability that neither Harry nor, more importantly, Hermione have.)

So let’s look at the prophecy. The descriptive phrase ‘the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord’ is used twice. Suggests that it’s talking about two different people. (Consider the following: Look at those two girls. The one approaching is my sister. The one with the bag is brilliant.) Also, ‘with the power’ is ambiguous. It can mean possesses a particular ability. Or it means has the necessary total strength. I suggest there’s two people involved, one satisfying each of these two meanings.

There’s nothing in the prophecy that says ‘the one’ will prevail, only that they possess the ability and/or strength. This probably reflects Trelawney’s understandable doubts at the time of the prophecy that anyone could in fact defeat Voldemort. (It leaves a loophole for the Dark Lord as well, should he be aware of the prophecy.)

Only one of these people ‘will be born as the seventh month dies’. The other simply ‘approaches’. I suggest that one comes into being by natural childbirth. The other does not. However, born is also used to refer to this coming into existence, and words like child, father, mother etc are often used when considering the act of creation (of works of art, or institutions, for instance – ‘Pierre Werner, is considered the father of the Euro, which was born on…’).

This being could be created by those (could be more than two) who have each thrice defied the Dark Lord, and they will do so at the end of July.

‘One’ has two meanings. First is the simple singular. But it is also another word for Unity. A coming together. I think what we are talking about here is a gestalt – a being formed from the combining of others. Probably two people, as this explains the phrase ‘and neither can live whilst the other survives’. ‘The other’ in this phrase does not refer to one of the two people who are the ‘neither’. ‘The other’ is a general phrase used in literature to describe a stranger (a new person), often very different. If two people merge into a gestalt, then as long as the gestalt continues in existence, the two constituent people cannot ‘live’ their lives. Star Trek: Voyager fans will recognise the episode Tuvix, where two of the crew (Tuvok, Neelix) are, for some technobabble reason, merged into one being, who calls himself Tuvix. Although combined from two others, he is a separate personality and the episode revolves around whether to sacrifice Tuvix to restore Tuvok and Neelix.

In this case, it’s possible that the gestalt can only dissolve by the death of one of the two constituent people; that the gestalt has the choice as to who that might be, but doesn’t have the option of staying as he is – because it’s unstable and he either chooses or they all die anyway. This explains the ‘either must die at the hand of the other’. (Rest assured though. ‘Die’ probably isn’t permanent. You must have seen headlines like ‘drowned boy dies ten times’ – they mean the heart stopped beating ten times. In olden days (last century!) death was defined as the stopping of the heart. Modern science knows better (brain death nowadays). The wizarding world lives in the past so far as science/technology goes. It might be touch and go, but some CPR will probably save the day.)

The two people will probably both be male, as the gestalt is a he. Probably Harry and Neville. (NB this requirement of people working together is also reflected in the Hat’s rhyme about all the houses of Hogwarts needing to come together. I think this idea of ordinary people of differing personalities and abilities working together to achieve great things, as opposed to the actions of ‘great’ people, is the underlying theme of the books. Voldemort was described as ‘great’.)

‘Mark him as his equal’ may not refer to a physical branding. Mark can simple mean take note of and recognise. The Dark Lord simply acknowledges to the gestalt that he is the equal of himself.

The power ‘the Dark Lord knows not’, could be something that the Dark Lord understands, but may simply be something that the Dark Lord does not know he possesses. The Dark Lord may be very familiar with the abilities of every one of the protagonists in this fight, but the gestalt is a new player with unknown potential. That could put him at a disadvantage.

As to the Dark Lord, this is not Voldemort. It is the true evildoer here – the one in the shadows (dark), pulling the strings (lord – one who commands over others). Trelawney habitually refers to Voldemort as ‘he who must not be named’. The subconscious usually doesn't suddenly use different terminology. This true Dark Lord is acting surreptitiously, but possibly in plain sight (the best place to hide anything), which would imply we’ve already met them. Tom Riddle could be a victim. Someone possessed and forced to act out someone else’s evil plans. If he remains conscious of what is happening, though powerless to act, that would truly be a fate worse than death.

You should have enough clues to decipher who I suspect might be the true Dark Lord.

[Dottie]

:welcome: Firstly, let me say that that was a BRILLIANT post! :love: I must say that most of us, including myself, have always percieved death as a permenant thing. I'd never even though of the term dying in that context, although I have personally used it myself.

Bravo!

[R_P_S]

Prophecies tend to do one of three things, which can all be illustrated by the famous Delphic Oracle of ancient Greece.

First, they often mislead. A king, who was thinking of invading his neighbour, asked the Oracle what would happen. The answer ("a great kingdom would be destroyed") encouraged him to attack. Unfortunately, he lost the war and his own kingdom. It's important to look at all angles, and not read into it what you wish to be true.

Secondly, they provide clues that are so obscure no one realises until after the events have occurred. The Athenians, fearing invasion, asked the Oracle what to do. No one understood the answer ('rely on your wooden walls' - Athens' walls were made of stone) until after the populace had saved itself by taking to sea in the city's fleet, which also subsequently destroyed the invaders at sea.

Thirdly, the prophecy describes some characteristic that marks out an individual who will achieve something, but the kind of individual that would achieve that something would have to have that characteristic. For example, the Oracle prophesied that the individual who could unravel the Gordian knot would conquer the world. Many tried, and failed, until Alexander (later 'the Great' after conquering the world) chopped it in two with his sword. His ability to see the heart of a problem and his lateral thinking to solve it was what made him one of - most people think, the - finest generals in history.

Before analysing the prophecy in these terms, it’s worth considering what a prophecy is. Most people think it’s a kind of precognition. I.e. a sense – of what the future is. This could be because the future already exists, and the prophesier simply sees it. Alternatively, there could be a supreme being who has it all planned out and has passed on a message as to what those plans are. Or, there are forces at work in the world, which are bound to produce a particular result, no matter what decisions people make, and the prophesier is just better at spotting the initial patterns. This is similar to those chess problems that say: ‘White to play and win in five moves’. Black can make whatever moves he wants (subject to what’s possible), but it’s still ‘white to play and win in five moves’.

But the second possibility is that it is a kind of power – the prophesier is making the future. They will it into being. I suspect that this is the nature of prophesying that JKR is using in her books. It does bring free will more to the fore (rather than predestination), both because of what the prophesier does, but also because it can be countered or modified by someone else’s will.

The prophesier we know we have seen (Trelawney) and the one I think we have seen (Ron – check out how often his statements on the future come true) both don’t know when they are prophesying. Trelawney goes into a trance and Ron throws them out in general conversation. This suggests that the power is subconscious – and we all know how powerful our subconscious desires are.

The prophecies will also tend to involve something that the prophesier wants. Trelawney made her first when Voldemort was on his rampage. She – romantic that she is – probably wished for a heroic figure to come and save the day. Ron’s tend to be what you’d expect from a teenage boy.

As they’re from the subconscious, they’ll also be inchoate (compare dreams). So, they’ll tend to be somewhat metaphorical. And the result they produce might be a bit random as to what the prophesier actually desires (“be careful what you wish for”).

This would be a very great power, of course. People who are good at a rare ability tend not to be good at everything else. Trelawney seems useless most of the time. Ron (whose prophesies seem much smaller scale, and more mundane, than her ‘future of the world’ type – again, fits their characters) is hardly the most proficient wizard. (NB It’s important for Ron’s character that he has an ability that neither Harry nor, more importantly, Hermione have.)

So let’s look at the prophecy. The descriptive phrase ‘the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord’ is used twice. Suggests that it’s talking about two different people. (Consider the following: Look at those two girls. The one approaching is my sister. The one with the bag is brilliant.) Also, ‘with the power’ is ambiguous. It can mean possesses a particular ability. Or it means has the necessary total strength. I suggest there’s two people involved, one satisfying each of these two meanings.

There’s nothing in the prophecy that says ‘the one’ will prevail, only that they possess the ability and/or strength. This probably reflects Trelawney’s understandable doubts at the time of the prophecy that anyone could in fact defeat Voldemort. (It leaves a loophole for the Dark Lord as well, should he be aware of the prophecy.)

Only one of these people ‘will be born as the seventh month dies’. The other simply ‘approaches’. I suggest that one comes into being by natural childbirth. The other does not. However, born is also used to refer to this coming into existence, and words like child, father, mother etc are often used when considering the act of creation (of works of art, or institutions, for instance – ‘Pierre Werner, is considered the father of the Euro, which was born on…’).

This being could be created by those (could be more than two) who have each thrice defied the Dark Lord, and they will do so at the end of July.

‘One’ has two meanings. First is the simple singular. But it is also another word for Unity. A coming together. I think what we are talking about here is a gestalt – a being formed from the combining of others. Probably two people, as this explains the phrase ‘and neither can live whilst the other survives’. ‘The other’ in this phrase does not refer to one of the two people who are the ‘neither’. ‘The other’ is a general phrase used in literature to describe a stranger (a new person), often very different. If two people merge into a gestalt, then as long as the gestalt continues in existence, the two constituent people cannot ‘live’ their lives. Star Trek: Voyager fans will recognise the episode Tuvix, where two of the crew (Tuvok, Neelix) are, for some technobabble reason, merged into one being, who calls himself Tuvix. Although combined from two others, he is a separate personality and the episode revolves around whether to sacrifice Tuvix to restore Tuvok and Neelix.

In this case, it’s possible that the gestalt can only dissolve by the death of one of the two constituent people; that the gestalt has the choice as to who that might be, but doesn’t have the option of staying as he is – because it’s unstable and he either chooses or they all die anyway. This explains the ‘either must die at the hand of the other’. (Rest assured though. ‘Die’ probably isn’t permanent. You must have seen headlines like ‘drowned boy dies ten times’ – they mean the heart stopped beating ten times. In olden days (last century!) death was defined as the stopping of the heart. Modern science knows better (brain death nowadays). The wizarding world lives in the past so far as science/technology goes. It might be touch and go, but some CPR will probably save the day.)

The two people will probably both be male, as the gestalt is a he. Probably Harry and Neville. (NB this requirement of people working together is also reflected in the Hat’s rhyme about all the houses of Hogwarts needing to come together. I think this idea of ordinary people of differing personalities and abilities working together to achieve great things, as opposed to the actions of ‘great’ people, is the underlying theme of the books. Voldemort was described as ‘great’.)

‘Mark him as his equal’ may not refer to a physical branding. Mark can simple mean take note of and recognise. The Dark Lord simply acknowledges to the gestalt that he is the equal of himself.

The power ‘the Dark Lord knows not’, could be something that the Dark Lord understands, but may simply be something that the Dark Lord does not know he possesses. The Dark Lord may be very familiar with the abilities of every one of the protagonists in this fight, but the gestalt is a new player with unknown potential. That could put him at a disadvantage.

As to the Dark Lord, this is not Voldemort. It is the true evildoer here – the one in the shadows (dark), pulling the strings (lord – one who commands over others). Trelawney habitually refers to Voldemort as ‘he who must not be named’. The subconscious usually doesn't suddenly use different terminology. This true Dark Lord is acting surreptitiously, but possibly in plain sight (the best place to hide anything), which would imply we’ve already met them. Tom Riddle could be a victim. Someone possessed and forced to act out someone else’s evil plans. If he remains conscious of what is happening, though powerless to act, that would truly be a fate worse than death.

You should have enough clues to decipher who I suspect might be the true Dark Lord.
I must say that was a briliant post and that I think that the impact Trewally's prphency had was very obvious, Harry, knowing his future, didn't want to be near anyone. (I know this postis lame, but I am only new)

[Discordia]

PhoenixRising, your probably one of the few people I know who;s actually been able to put into words what I've been trying to string together all along. I agree completely. Prophecies are tricky business. Sometimes you might think your doing something to stall a prophecy but you're only helping it to happen.

Dan radcliffe said in one of his interviews that believes that Harry will have to make a sacrifice and that only Voldemort can die if Harry dies which does seem to be the path that the prophecy was going down. Notice that Harry only asked Dumbledore whether he or Voldemort had to kill the other in the end not if Voldemort dies does that mena I have to die. There's was no real mention of Harry having to make the ultimate sacrifice.

[purplehawk]

Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant post. The Dark Lord is Lucius Malfoy? I could buy that were it not for the fact Riddle is so much older than Lucius. Please - come back and discuss this with us!

[Chrysalis]

Wow. What a brilliant post. Although I have no clue to which true Dark Lord you are referring to. Lucius Malfoy? Like purplehawk said, he seems too young. Unless that Dark Lord is manifesting himself in the body of a younger person. Or has attained the guise of one. Somehow...I can't picture Malfoy as an evil lord somehow...but who knows. Anyway, I really love your post! Are you an Ancient World studies scholar or something? You seem well versed in ancient Greek and Roman mythology.

[Ilith]

You should have enough clues to decipher who I suspect might be the true Dark Lord.

:wow: :upset: I have got such a terrible pang in my heart after thinking about this sentence of yours. Are you suspecting Dumbledore??? It goes really well with some clues. But how could he be? If it's true, I'll send a dragon after you, not just an owl.
;) It's a brilliant post, though!

[Hogwarts Lake]

:wow: :upset: I have got such a terrible pang in my heart after thinking about this sentence of yours. Are you suspecting Dumbledore??? It goes really well with some clues. But how could he be? If it's true, I'll send a dragon after you, not just an owl.
It's a brilliant post, though!

:upset: It can't be Dumbledore... it just can't... doesn't Jo say he is a nice person a bumblebee? It will come as a HUGE shock to me if it were so

And your post was wonderful :tu: I am still appalled

Dumbledore is good (http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2000/0700-cbc-solomon.htm)
E: Do you have more fun writing the evil characters? Because Voldemort [the sinister wizard who killed Harry's parents] is the quintessential evil character.

JK: Yeah, he's a bad one. Do I have more fun? I loved writing Dumbledore and Dumbledore is the epitome of goodness. But I loved writing Gilderoy and I loved writing Rita. Because I just find them comic characters.

[Ilith]

:upset: It can't be Dumbledore... it just can't... doesn't Jo say he is a nice person a bumblebee? It will come as a HUGE shock to me if it were so
And your post was wonderful :tu: I am still appalled

Of course he is good. His very name suggests so. His eyes, when he looks at Harry, say so. I just wanted to figure out who PhoenixRising suspects to be the Dark Lord and I'd been suspicious before about 'the Dark Lord' in Trelawney's prophecy, and this nasty thought hit me.

[purplehawk]

What other master manipulator can there be in the saga? Well, Dumbledore could arguably be termed one, but he is distinctly not evil. It has to be Malfoy or another evil character we've completely overlooked. I can't think of any others we've actually read about that would suit the bill. Fudge and Umbridge are too stupid.

Thinking of Malfoy, however, his finger seems to be in every plot... I have posted up the wazoo about him wresting Fudge away from Dumbledore, for example, and the very interesting business in Chamber of Secrets. Just how did Malfoy come to have that diary in the first place?

Some will say Lucius doesn't have the smarts or the impulse control to be the mastermind behind it all, and will point instead to Narcissa as the "brains" residing in the Malfoy manor.

"I was and am the Dark Lord's most loyal servant. I learned the Dark Arts from him, and I know spells of such power that you, pathetic little boy, can never hope to compete - "

They are sisters, after all. And Voldemort's words to Malfoy in the cemetery scene from GoF do not seem to be speaking to an omnipotent presence so much as a disappointing inferior. But then I come back to the plot with the diary and its many nuances.

Arrgghh, this is almost too much food for thought.

I think, too, we've been blessed.

[daz]

wow great post i dont think it can be dumbledore as that means you cant trust anybody

[fawkes5]

The prophecies will also tend to involve something that the prophesier wants. Trelawney made her first when Voldemort was on his rampage. She – romantic that she is – probably wished for a heroic figure to come and save the day. Ron’s tend to be what you’d expect from a teenage boy.

Brilliant post but I gotta disagree with this. Let me try to write down again what I posted in another thread.

I don't think a prophecy is set. I don't think the one prophesying wills it to come true either. I believe the sole reason for a prophecy to come true or not still lies in free will. My example is Oedipus in Greek mythology:

Oedipus in Greek legend is the son of Lalus, the king of Thebes. Lalus, having been warned by an oracle that he would be killed by his son ordered the newly born Oedipus to be left outside to die of exposure. Oedipus was rescued and raised by a peasant. Thus Oedipus grew up ignorant of his parentage, and, meeting Lalus in a narrow way, quarrelled with him and slew him. At that time the country was ravaged by a monster, the Sphinx; Oedipus solved the riddle which it proposed to its victims, freed the country, and married his own mother (this was also in the original prophecy).

The thing is, if Lalus was noble enough to say "Fine, my son will kill me someday but I still can't leave him out to die now." and just ignored the prophecy and did the right thing, it would probably have not come true.

What I'm trying to say is that prophecies are there to let people know that given a certain situation and knowing people's strengths and flaws so and so is going to happen.

It doesn't stretch the imagination to think that a good prophecy involving good people can come true. Why would anyone want to prevent a good prophecy from happening?

What I am supposing is that a bad prophecy can be prevented if the people involved did something different from what they would normally do, something out of character.

[whizbang121]

This reminds me of how phoenixsong used to try to explain how we can't interpret the meaning of a prophesy until after it is unfolded, and as this one is still in the process of unfolding .......

The other thing about this prophesy is that it reveals a pair of possibilities, rather than nail down what's going to happen whether we are able to interpret it accurately or not. "... either must die at the hand of the other..." is open to two possibilities. We know there is one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord. But we don't know if he will do it. Odd feature in a prophesy. The classic prophesies seem to say exactly what will happen but interpretation is impossible except in hindsight. Again, the message Phoenixsong used to try to drive home. And we actually see that happen with Trelawney's first prophesy. Dumbledore doesn't know which of two boys is the one until the prophesy unfolds to the point where Harry is identified.
The idea of a combined being has been the topic of an interesting discussion in the Celtic mythology thread about Harry and Voldemort being the summer (Holly) and winter (Oak) aspects of the god Cerunnos. (sp?) Interesting n this context. I prefer to think of Dumbledore as the winter god as we know that Voldemort's wand is yew.

As for playing guessing games, I can only think of two people who play silly games. :huh::elaugh:

All in all, PhoneixRising, a well thought out and carefully composed post. Are you submitting it at conventionalley at the end of July?

[purplehawk]

Such broad experience there... I know only one.

[barmy codger]

The prophecies will also tend to involve something that the prophesier wants. Trelawney made her first when Voldemort was on his rampage. She – romantic that she is – probably wished for a heroic figure to come and save the day.

There’s nothing in the prophecy that says ‘the one’ will prevail, only that they possess the ability and/or strength. This probably reflects Trelawney’s understandable doubts at the time of the prophecy that anyone could in fact defeat Voldemort. (It leaves a loophole for the Dark Lord as well, should he be aware of the prophecy.)

It is in keeping with Ms Rowling's themes, that the Prophecy both predicted the outcome of events in the story and is creating the events. But in your admirable post you suggest that the Prophecy is the expression of Trelawney's will to create the future she wants. This makes Trelawney the prime mover of the story. That might be acceptable, but you say the underlying cause is that she probably wished for a heroic figure to come and save the day. So the whole story, and her great creative act is based only on just a probability. This is also based on an assumption that Voldemort's rampage disturbed her so much that it influenced her unconscious desires. You can't assume that. For all we know she could have been teaching in Rio de Janeiro and oblivious to Voldemort.

Your three things about prophecies do not mention that they predict doubts. The Prophecy did not say the Dark Lord would be vanquished. As far as I know, prophecies are usually clear about the specific event, but vague on details. I think a prophecy expressing Trelawney's desires would clearly state that the Dark Lord would be killed. You say this probably reflects Trelawney's doubts. This is the second probable thing you tacked onto her Prophecy, which is supposed to be the force behind the whole story. If she is the reason this story is happening, I would like her motives to be more substantial.

[Discordia]

As to the Dark Lord, this is not Voldemort. It is the true evildoer here – the one in the shadows (dark), pulling the strings (lord – one who commands over others). Trelawney habitually refers to Voldemort as ‘he who must not be named’. The subconscious usually doesn't suddenly use different terminology. This true Dark Lord is acting surreptitiously, but possibly in plain sight (the best place to hide anything), which would imply we’ve already met them. Tom Riddle could be a victim. Someone possessed and forced to act out someone else’s evil plans. If he remains conscious of what is happening, though powerless to act, that would truly be a fate worse than death.
Well that would be a really cool theory except for one slight flaw: we know that Riddle was not some spineless dingbat and there's more evidence that goes against it than for it.

[Katze]

scuz me for jumping in here with something that doesn't exactly coincide with the current discussion....but I needed to get this off of my mind, and I figured this would be the place to do it.

I was thinking earlier about Harry and his fate, and then I was reminded of the prophecy part stating "With a power the Dark Lord knows not".

In OotP, Dumbledore tells Harry that there is a locked room at the MoM containting a power that is the most wonderful and terrible power that exists. Dumbledore continues to tell Harry that it is this power that Harry has in abundance. It is what saved him from Voldemort 4 times. The power is Love, as I'm sure has already been established, but then I started thinking.

It doesn't really matter is Harry has powerful magic or not. His power that will be used to fight Voldemort resides in him because of Lily's sacrifice. It doesn't matter if he can fight voldemort with a wand, because the only thing that will defeat Voldemort is love. And from what Dumbledore says, Harry is the only one who harbors enough of that power to truly rid the world of Voldemort.

Harry won't actually have to kill Voldemort and thus become a killer. He'll just need to fight Voldemort with an immense amount of love for those around him. Lily's love for Harry saved Harry, and Harry's love for Sirius saved him (Harry) from Voldemort's posession.

I'm not sure what to make of the other part of the prophecy - about how one must kill the other and both can't survive...it doesn't say that one will survive, just that one must die.

Though, I do wonder if the power that Harry will need to use to defeat Voldemort will also result in his own demise - not violent or a horrible death, but a self sacrifice on his part to save the people he loves - he'll go out in a blaze of glory. I keep picturing in my mind Harry hunching over, and then raising his arms and head up and basically disappearing in a burst light along with killing all the evildoers, including Voldemort, in the world

[Glee]

oooh, i like that katze!

something worse than death... there are plenty of things worse than death, but voldemort doesn't think so. voldemort hates SO much that Harry's love and lily's love saved him. maybe hate's worth than death, i always thought so. not little hate, but voldemort type hate.

[whizbang121]

Maybe this is a good time to post my old "Power and and Future" essay that Dink contributed solutions for, but I'll resist it.

We don't know that the power in Harry is love at all. It may well be, but I don't think it is. JKR says it's what keeps Harry going. ???:huh: As usual, no help there. By that statement, I would say the power is his will.

Harry's love for Sirius is what saved him from possession in the DoM. But I'm still intrigued by the fact that the scar on Harry's forehead is a rune. I think it's the sowelo representing the life force, the energy of the sun, the creative forces. Harry's sun sign is Leo, ruling planet the sun. Katze's image of a burst of light may not be far off.

[Katze]

It is possible that the power Harry has is something other than love, but here is why I think it is love:

In OotP, Dumbledore says, "There is a room in the Department of Mysteries that is kept locked at all times. It contains a force that is at once more wonderful and more terricle than death, than human intelligence, than forces of nature. It is also, perhaps, the most mysterious of the many subjects for study that reside there. It is the power held within that room that you possess in such quantities and which Voldemort has not at all. That power took you to Sirius tonight. That power also saved you from possession by Voldemort, becauase he could not bear to reside in a body so full of the force he detests. In the end, it mattered not that you could not close you mind. It was your heart that save you."

If we go back to SS/PS, we learn Voldemort detests Love and cannot touch Harry because of the love from his mother. He got around that in GoF, but his emotions for Sirius threw Voldemort out of Harry's body, and we know how much Harry wanted to be with Sirius.

Interesting point about the runes Whiz. I wonder if Hermione is going to pick up on something eventually, since that is her form of divination.

I haven't discussed this stuff in almost a year...I'm so far off my game and I'm getting all my factos messed up...so please pardon any false facts that I might state.

[whizbang121]

The "power in Harry" has been hotly debated as long as I can remember. I admit that it might very well be love, though I will be disappointed beyond words if it's just that cheesy. But I still think there's a case for 'will' or perhaps courage, "life force."

"Life force" is my favorite because I don't think Voldemort has his. When he was ripped from his body but not killed, he was "less than the meanest ghost." He didn't even know what he was and he could only survive by possessing other creatures, mostly snakes. He became a parasite, a possessing demon. Eventually, everything he possessed, died. He took the life right out of them. Even Tom Riddle was draining Ginny's Life Force in order to come back to life.

I think Voldemort's life force is in the sowelo shaped scar on Harry's forehead. He can only exist on Harry's life force.

[purplehawk]

Oh my, is this a familiar topic. I think it's both - love and will - plus a lot of other things besides. If there is a word that encompasses the human will and/or heart, somebody please offer it up!

Edit: Life force is good too. :tu:

[ErickGama]

.....and either must die at the hand of the other, for neither can live while the other survives

i think she meant that one of them will survive and the other one will die. Maybe Harry will survive and Voldemort will die. Any thoughts?

[Dottie]

.....and either must die at the hand of the other, for neither can live while the other survives

i think she meant that one of them will survive and the other one will die. Maybe Harry will survive and Voldemort will die. Any thoughts?

Well, I think this is what everyone assume will happen. I can just see the Harry Potter fans retreating into a dark, sad place if Harry were die unless it is presented in a very delicate, delicate way, althought I'm not sure if this can even be done.

EDIT: I think I must have been distracted while writing this. I hope it make sense now.

[ErickGama]

I agree with you Dottie, maybe he would become the hero and Voldemort will die.

[morgan le fay]

The "power in Harry" has been hotly debated as long as I can remember. I admit that it might very well be love, though I will be disappointed beyond words if it's just that cheesy. But I still think there's a case for 'will' or perhaps courage, "life force."

"Life force" is my favorite because I don't think Voldemort has his. When he was ripped from his body but not killed, he was "less than the meanest ghost." He didn't even know what he was and he could only survive by possessing other creatures, mostly snakes. He became a parasite, a possessing demon. Eventually, everything he possessed, died. He took the life right out of them. Even Tom Riddle was draining Ginny's Life Force in order to come back to life.

I think Voldemort's life force is in the sowelo shaped scar on Harry's forehead. He can only exist on Harry's life force.


i definitely agree about sowelo/sowelu. eons ago, we discussed this over on the runes thread, about how sowelu symbolizes the "ultimate life force."

Runes, anyone? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=16412)

most of it is on pages 1&2 for ne one interested in goin back to it. (not sure if its been discussed recently here.)

whiz, if you dont mind me asking (and also dont mind any extended reply time i may take :blush: ), if you believe that perhaps the "life force" which dumbledore alluded to which resides in harry's veins is, most simply put, love, as symbolized or perhaps as transferred to harry in the form of the sowelu scar, then does voldemort in effect "feed" on the love of others?? does that make sense? :shrug: would it be valid to ask whether you think that perhaps the life force which voldemort transferred to harry is love? or perhaps love is the life force which harry already possessed in large quantities (maybe inherited or instilled by his parents) prior to the night he was scarred and voldemort transferred to harry another life force, his own life force, which is not love and which may instead be power? (as for what sort of power specifically, thats moot.)

[Ilith]

It is possible that the power Harry has is something other than love, but here is why I think it is love:
In OotP, Dumbledore says, "There is a room in the Department of Mysteries that is kept locked at all times. It contains a force that is at once more wonderful and more terricle than death, than human intelligence, than forces of nature. It is also, perhaps, the most mysterious of the many subjects for study that reside there. It is the power held within that room that you possess in such quantities and which Voldemort has not at all. That power took you to Sirius tonight. That power also saved you from possession by Voldemort, becauase he could not bear to reside in a body so full of the force he detests. In the end, it mattered not that you could not close you mind. It was your heart that save you."

The rooms in the Department of Mysteries keep troubling me. Death, love (assumedly), memory, the concepts studied in these rooms have a strong metaphysical value. There is nothing or little material in them, though they manifest themselves powerfully in our mundane lives. How can they be studied at all? How can such powers be kept in some rooms, kept anywhere?
We, Muggles, do have philosophy and other humanities that are devoted to the study of metaphysical but I haven't seen such an attitude in our world towards it as in the wizarding world. :huh:
Come to think of it, this attitude didn't use to be that different from the wizarding world in the past as it is, at least where I live, now. To fathom the depths and hights of metaphysical and supernatural was usually a special privilege and duty of only a few chosen ones, be it kings, shamans, royal astronomers, prophetesses, priests, poets..... There was a time when reading Bible was dicouraged because it was deemed that people didn't have the power to read it.
*****

Back to the prophecy and the night at Godric's Hollow, should Lord Voldemort also have a scar? I know the answer is a ready 'no' if you bear in mind the theory about the lightning scar as the rune of life force (thanks to whizbang121 for this) and, a simpler one, that Voldemort lost his body.
If it is life force that could help Harry to vanquish the Dark Lord, how can Voldemort be his equal? But then we have theories about Lord Voldemort not being the true Dark Lord and Harry not being the one mentioned. On the other hand, Voldemort did live, though 'impaled upon his own Avada Kedavra sword'. Yet, his existence was one lesser than a life, forcing himself along with drinking unicorn blood and killing other beings.

:huh: :shrug: Somebody should invent portable head fridges for HP fans to cool their heads.

[Melopez]

I haven't looked through all of this - but I wonder if there's a connection between the Three Death Eaters Voldemort says died as he walks around the circle in GoF and the thrice that was mentioned in the prophecy.

[whizbang121]

I've put the Power and a Future essay back up here. (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?p=648417#post648417) It's the first post on the thread.

[R_P_S]

"He will have power the Dark Lord knows not.." Is this what we have seen or is ther more to come?

[whizbang121]

Oh, no. There's more to come.

To coin a phrase, we ain't seen nothin', yet. But I think Katze is right. there will be a lot of light.

[Marisa]

I think that a lot more is to come... there will be big revelations in the two remaining books...