The Lake

[Liselle]

A random thought but possible connection.......

Hogwarts has a lake with a giant squid.....we have seen that first years are brought to Hogwarts from the train by boat across the lake and that Dumstrang came to the triwizard tournament via the lake and we met some of the merpeople during the second task. I'm wondering if there is more to the lake than just that.....

Say that Hogwarts "lower levels" and the COS are located below the lake. The only other lake I can re-call being mentioned in the series so far (open to correction) is the underground one in Gringotts.....is there any way that they could be connected? After all the lake at Hogwarts is protected by the giant squid and the merpeople and the lake in gringotts is possibly protected by the dragons that Harry thought he saw on his first visit.

that coupled with the fact that Gringotts and Hogwarts are described as the two safest places in the wizarding world....would it be logical to have the two connected in some way even if it is a secret?

Just a random thought!
Liselle

[JofpGallagher]

It seems that Gringotts is somewhere near London, and to go to Hogwarts you need to take the train for almost half day. Maybe Hogwarts and Gringotts are far away each other.
The only possible connection this two body seas can have is through a river. That could be possible.

[Liselle]

sorry, to clarify I meant that they would be linked like a teleporting device so by entering one you could come out in the other if you went sufficiently deep enough!

Liselle

[dark1_black]

Maybe there is something hidden in the lake at gringotts and if someone finds it, it would be telported to the hogwarts lake an so on abd so forth. Do u understand? Sorry if you dont understand just a crazy thought.

[London_luv89]

hmmm... I never thought of that before, you could be right but... I just don't know...

[cleansweep11]

I was watching the CoS movie yesterday and I noticed that the windows in the Slytherin common room looked like water was behind them! They're in the dungeons so there couldn't be any windows could there be? So that goes along with your theory of some of the things being underwater.....

But the gringotts lake and the hogwarts lake being connected? I doubt it. You can't apparate on hogwarts grounds and I doubt that you can in gringotts too. A river would be too long nd what would be the point? It wouldn't be fast way to get between one and the other.....

[SilverStar]

I think you are on to something here!! Good theory. I never noticed that or the fact that the Slytherin common room windows look like water. Course that could have been something that they changed or didn't realize that they did.

One of the rules that they teach you in the Ultimate Unofficial Guide to the Mysteries of HP is that there is no such thing as a coincidence with JKR. So obviously she mentioned the river in Gringotts for a reason.

[Katy Kedevra]

I think you are on to something here!! Good theory. I never noticed that or the fact that the Slytherin common room windows look like water. Course that could have been something that they changed or didn't realize that they did.

One of the rules that they teach you in the Ultimate Unofficial Guide to the Mysteries of HP is that there is no such thing as a coincidence with JKR. So obviously she mentioned the river in Gringotts for a reason.
The water in Gringotts may have just been placed there for scenery purposes. It gives you the idea of a damp cave and that's exactly what JKR wanted. So it might not have anything to do with Hogwarts.

About the Slytherin common room, if it's true that there is water behind the walls (I don't have the video right now to see) then maybe it's one of those clues that are put into the movies that can't be shwon in the books.

[hesdead-dealwithit]

BTW, there is such a thing as a coincidence in Harry Potter. Ever wonder how it just happened that Pettigrew, or Scabbers, chose a family that eventually led to him being the pet of the best friend of the son of his former best friend? (I know it's convoluted;).) There are so many families in the wizarding world that the statistical chance of that happened is essentially zero. it's called a coincidence.

About the lake - I wouldn't be surprised if there is something like a Floo Network that the Durmstrang students used to go to Hogwarts. Using that network - although calling it a network may be a stretch; it's possible that it was only used once, for the Tournament, and likely that it is much harder to use and much less often used (say, once a month at most) - then the Floo Network - you could maybe transport a ship or boat from one body of water to another. Or maybe there was just some mass Apparition magic that was used. Any ideas?

[Tonks08]

Originaly posted by hesdead-dealwithit

About the lake - I wouldn't be surprised if there is something like a Floo Network that the Durmstrang students used to go to Hogwarts. Using that network - although calling it a network may be a stretch; it's possible that it was only used once, for the Tournament, and likely that it is much harder to use and much less often used (say, once a month at most) - then the Floo Network - you could maybe transport a ship or boat from one body of water to another. Or maybe there was just some mass Apparition magic that was used. Any ideas?

I never really though anything of Durmstrang's way of getting to Hogwarts... I doubt it's connected to Grigotts or anything like that, but maybe a Floo Network, or something like hesdead-dealwithit said.

What if Durmstrang used like Dark Arts to get to Hogwarts? Wouldn't it be hard to get onto Hogwarts grounds by like "apperating" when like Hermione said in Hogwarts: A History it states that you can't apperate in the Hogwarts grounds... :shrug:

Or maybe Durmstrang uses like phoenix apperation to get from A to B?

I think i'm getting off-topic.... :angel:

[hesdead-dealwithit]

Well, we didn't see a phoenix on their ship, did we?

I just thought that the appearance of their boat was pretty interesting, much more interesting than the chariot. Either there was some sort of mass-Apparition thing done (is that possible?), or there had to be some sort of mass0Portkey (is that possible - the people and the boat and everything else couldn't have all touched it, could they?), or there had to be some equivalent of the Floo Network, using lakes instead of fireplaces, and not being so often used like the Floonet.

[gretchen90]

That's a good connection, with the whole lake thing.

I just thought that in the first HP book, it was said that someone tried to steal from vault 713 I believe. If that's true, and your lake theory is correct, then someone from Durmstrang (aren't they said to be connected with the Dark Arts??) could have been trying to steal the Sorcerer's Stone for Voldemort?? Just thought that could be a possibility... tell me what you think...

Gretchen

http://pages.prodigy.net/hpdevo/quiz/hermi.jpg

[Masterfroggy]

Well, we didn't see a phoenix on their ship, did we?

I just thought that the appearance of their boat was pretty interesting, much more interesting than the chariot. Either there was some sort of mass-Apparition thing done (is that possible?), or there had to be some sort of mass0Portkey (is that possible - the people and the boat and everything else couldn't have all touched it, could they?), or there had to be some equivalent of the Floo Network, using lakes instead of fireplaces, and not being so often used like the Floonet.

I think that the lake has to be connected to the sea via an underground river and the boat sailed the sea from where ever the nearest river to Durmstrang is.
They travelled invisibly above the waves until they reached the mouth of the loch and when no one is looking they sank beneath the waves ands spent the rest of their time sailing submerged, there must be some form of Bubble boat charm to keep everyone dry.

There is a connection between the Lake and Hogwarts but it is miles underground, and much deeper than the dungeons, the pipes from all the bathrooms meet somewhere under the school and at least one is connected to the lake, but the pipe might not be very big so I doubt that they will be much use in the coming books

The lake under the Bank is a puzzle because the water table of London is close to the surface so unless they use magic to keep it from flooding the vaults I don't think that Gringotts is quite deep enough to have a river that could connect to Scotland, they might have a underground passage to the River Thames and from there to the Sea and up the Coast to Scotland and Hogwarts underground lake entrance

[hesdead-dealwithit]

I think that the lake has to be connected to the sea via an underground river and the boat sailed the sea from where ever the nearest river to Durmstrang is.
They travelled invisibly above the waves until they reached the mouth of the loch and when no one is looking they sank beneath the waves ands spent the rest of their time sailing submerged, there must be some form of Bubble boat charm to keep everyone dry.
That's an idea, one I hadn't thought of. A bubble charm would work, I guess, and it would make that "navigate" comment at the end of GoF make a little more sense. The only thing is if a ship could really fit in those undergroud rivers. It's magic, after all, so I guess they could perform a charm like the ones done in the tents in GoF and the cars in PoA.

[Cat]

About the lake - I wouldn't be surprised if there is something like a Floo Network that the Durmstrang students used to go to Hogwarts. Using that network - although calling it a network may be a stretch; it's possible that it was only used once, for the Tournament, and likely that it is much harder to use and much less often used (say, once a month at most) - then the Floo Network - you could maybe transport a ship or boat from one body of water to another. Or maybe there was just some mass Apparition magic that was used. Any ideas?

We don't know if the Apparation of objects is the same as the Apparation of people. If the boat travelled from one lake to another, it wouldn't be much different to the Knight Bus.

***
The squid and the merpeople protect the lake because it is their home. I don't think they are employees. But Dumbledore can speak to the merpeople in their above-ground wailing language so he would be able to ask for favours. I don't see why the lake would have anything to do with Gringotts. The bank has enough vaults of its own. But that doesn't mean that there must be nothing of value down there in yonder Squiddy depths.

[Masterfroggy]

That's an idea, one I hadn't thought of. A bubble charm would work, I guess, and it would make that "navigate" comment at the end of GoF make a little more sense. The only thing is if a ship could really fit in those undergroud rivers. It's magic, after all, so I guess they could perform a charm like the ones done in the tents in GoF and the cars in PoA.


You are right, I was thinking along the lines of a spell similar to the ones ministry Cars use so that they that can manage to pass through gaps in traffic the Vernons Dursleys car would not be able to fit through

[rotsiepots]

One of the most bizarre theories I've read involved Dumbledore and the giant squid being one and the same. Honestly. :rolleyes:

Lakes in caves aren't entirely uncommon. Harry noticed stalagmites and stalactites on his journey on the Gringotts rattle cart, so we can assume that the underground part of Gringotts is in a giant cavern of sorts. I think most of the time lakes in caves aren't connected to other bodies of water, but this is HP, I suppose.

It's possible, but unlikely, for there to be some sort of teleporting device in the lake, in my opinion

[ae1vart0n]

Let me go over the existing bases of argument and add to them.

1) There is a some body of water in Gringotts.
2) The Durmstrang ship got into the Hogwarts Lake somehow
3) It's impossible to Apparate to or from Hogwarts
4) It is possible to portkey in and out of Hogwarts
5) It is possible to Floo powder a head into and out of Hogwarts
6) There is no evidence to suggest anyone takes the Floo network instead of the Hogwarts Express, though unusual means of flight are popular. (so far horses, a car and a giant carriage pulled by horses)
7) There is a Giant Squid in the lake
8) Harry reached a village of Merfolk which seemed to be at the bottom of the lake.
9) Dumbledore seems to have another means of personal transportation with his cloak (end of OotP).



2 is, as far as I can tell, the best argument for lake transportation so far.

7 doesn't seem to have much to do with the argument.

1 is interesting but we lack a solid connection outside of the presence of water. The Gringotts break-in isn't such a connection, though I do wonder how they found the appropriate vault in those tunnels.

5 and 6 together make me question whether it's possible to get to Hogwarts by Floo Powder, and if it is, why people would choose not to. It's faster right?

8 might be important in arguing against a bottomless lake. Seems like an overly complicated concept anyway, but best to bring it up. Maybe a second look at the village could turn up something important to this discussion.

3 eliminates Apparation, unless we don't consider the lake to be Hogwarts grounds. This may sound absurd, but if you read FBaWtFT, you'll see merfolk are politically similar to Centaurs, and the forest is/isn't Hogwarts grounds?

4 offers a non-apparatory solution without introducing a new floo-type network. Taken what is presented in the book, this seems to be the most likely.

9 seems to be limitted to the cloak, and thus couldn't really transport a ship.

In addition, (and I'm speculating here) but is Gringotts exclusively a "wizards" bank? Could the merpeople have a branch?



I'm aware that there are other arguments outside of the book, but this post doesn't cover them.

Did I miss something from the book? Anyone want to take a look at the mer-village?

[SomeDude]

From memory, it just mentions Dwellings (ie houses), huge statue of a merperson and the Mer-version of a town square!

No mentionings of a bank.

[Weatherby]

The chamber is also located beneath the lake.

[Drusilla]

In this theory called The Hero's Journey by Joseph Campbell,the hero has to cross a waterbody or bridge to get to the scene of his adventures (or something like that-it's being discussed here too) and since the theory is somewhat applicable to Harry,maybe that's what the significance of crossing the lake to get to the castle as first-years is.

[ginnybatbogeysyou]

This idea is interesting. It would be a surprise if it was true, but it involves good thinking.

i was just wondering: where is the Gringotss Lake mentioned? I've never really read about, but i will believe you if you say it's there. :)

[ae1vart0n]

Was there really any evidence that the Chamber was below the Lake? I mean it makes sense, and I'm convinced it's below the water table, but I don't know where it says it's below the lake

As for the Gringotts lake, SS page 74 (US version). "passing an underground lake".

[Grimoire]

I remember reading somewhere that the Slytherin Common Room is located beneath the lake. It was one of the points JKR insisted be included in the CoS movie, so it must have some relevance for future books.

[Tonks08]

Grimoire: I highly doubt the Slytherin common room would be under the lake... That'd be freaky, cuz the SCR is just in the dungeons of the castle not miles under the school.

ae1vart0n: No there wasn't any proof that the CoS was under the lake. The only proof we have is Harry and Ron's conversation.

"We must be miles under the school," said Harry, his voice echoing in the black tunnel.

"Under the lake, probably," said Ron, squinting around at the dark, slimy walls.

**Cos, American Edition. Chap. 16: The Chamber of Secrets. Pg. 302**

[ae1vart0n]

ae1vart0n: No there wasn't any proof that the CoS was under the lake. The only proof we have is Harry and Ron's conversation.
I didn't say proof. I said evidence. That counts as evidence. Thank you for the evidence. Please take me literally.

[cleansweep11]

I remember reading somewhere that the Slytherin Common Room is located beneath the lake. It was one of the points JKR insisted be included in the CoS movie, so it must have some relevance for future books.

Oh I'm good! Haha!(I posted this earlier if anyone didn't know that....)

I think its not underneath the lake but next to it so the window are viewing water.......

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-7/282337/Map.JPG

Thats a diagram of what I think it is......

SC=Slytherin common room......
The messy scribble on the top says windows
The messy scribble to the bottom right says water.......

[Jill]

I think its difficult to say whether the chamber of secrets is under the lake itself. It could be still just next to the lake and the slimey walls could be seepage from the lake itself.

Saying that, they did fall quite some distance down and I know this was just in the film, I am not sure whether it was mentioned in the books. There where dead skeletal fish bones on the floor, so the chamber might be the equivalent to one of those underground caverns within the lake itself. Like in Nemo but I can not remember the exact name given to a under water sea cave.

[cleansweep11]

People just ignore my diagram after I worked so very hard on it(not........hehe)...........haha lol

[hesdead-dealwithit]

Cleansweep, you should sell that to MoMA. It's a lot better than some of the stuff (http://www.moma.org/exhibitions/2003/pencil.html) they have.

[cleansweep11]

haha :D hey wait your right........;)

[Jill]

People just ignore my diagram after I worked so very hard on it(not........hehe)...........haha lol

cleansweep11, I think diagram is sweet and neat and yes the slytherin house is more likely at sea level or lake level than underneath it.

Anyway, I do think though that the CoS is much deeper down than the slytherin house. I think it is in the lake itself, like an underwater sea cave. Thats why we where shown the fish skeletons and why in the film at least Salazars head was just above a pool of water. I bet if you dived into that pool and swam along it, you would end up into the lake itself as the CoS may be surrounded by the lake anyway.

I can not remember whether at the bottom of the statue in the book, if there was such an opening pool at Salazars feet though. If there was, then this possibly lead out to the open water of the lake that surrounds Hogwarts. :)

[cleansweep11]

I just re read that book and I don't really remember the pool being part of the lake but I might have missed it.

[Jill]

Hm...your right there is no pool mentioned at the base of the statues feet. Maybe they added it in to give some form of location to the place. A kind of hint to where it is but I am not sure about that. Thanks cleansweep11.:)

[cleansweep11]

Welcome!

[ae1vart0n]

Fishbones? The book mentions small animal bones, and in particular a rat skull Ron steps on. I don't see any fishbones in the movie either. I actually thought they were human bones at one point. I will review the movie though and zoom in on the bones.

But that aside, if the Chamber is under the Lake, (and I think I've seen enough evidence to convince me) wouldn't the merpeople know about it? And if so, why wouldn't they tell Dumbledore? Dumbledore can speak mermish, and they are nice to him. They assisted with the Triwizard Tournament in the Lake.

[cleansweep11]

Well its possible that its underneath the lake and the merpeople have no access to it. The might not even know its there.

Yah I don't think they were fishbones......I htought they were rat bones........but not human bones!!

[Masterfroggy]

I think its difficult to say whether the chamber of secrets is under the lake itself. It could be still just next to the lake and the slimey walls could be seepage from the lake itself.

Saying that, they did fall quite some distance down and I know this was just in the film, I am not sure whether it was mentioned in the books. There where dead skeletal fish bones on the floor, so the chamber might be the equivalent to one of those underground caverns within the lake itself. Like in Nemo but I can not remember the exact name given to a under water sea cave.

Sorry but the skeletal bones were from rats and small animals there is no mention of fish what so ever. Harry tells us that they be miles under the school and Ron comments that they were under the lake (how he knows is another question but some people have a better sense of direction than others)

The dungeon is not near the lake because that would mean the kitchen was also near the lake as they are on the same level and share a corridor. To get to the Kitchens you have to go down another flight of stairs into the dungeon, but instead of ending up in a gloomy underground passage like the one that leads to Snape's classroom dungeon, you will find yourself in a broad stone corridor, brightly lit with torches, and decorated with cheerful paintings, mainly of food. To get into the kitchen you have to find the picture of the giant fruit bowl, and tickle the huge green pear. When it begins to squirm, and chuckle, keep tickling it and suddenly it will turn into a large green door handle.

[cleansweep11]

I don't think that the kitchean and snapes class room are near each other. THey might be.........but even if they are on the same level hey could be on other part of the castle(like right side left side etc...) And who says the kitcheans aren't near the lake?

[Masterfroggy]

If the kitchens were near the lake, would not the walls also run with water and slime as they do in Snapes class room, that is the only reason everyone thinks that Snapes class is near the lake isn't it.

[cleansweep11]

THats why I'm pointing out that it could be on the other side of the castle.


http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-7/282337/Map2.JPG

Do you understand what I mean now?

[Masterfroggy]

Sorry but that not going to work as the Kitchen is on the same level and the same corridor, the kitchen is under the great hall, and is the same shape and size

[Moontrimmer]

I've held the belief that the giant squid is gaurding something in the lake, so it could be very possible there is an entrance located somewhere under the lake leading to gringotts.

[Jill]

THats why I'm pointing out that it could be on the other side of the castle.

Do you understand what I mean now?

This is quite an interesting topic and I do think it warrents its own thread because we could attept to produce a map of Hogwarts castle based upon what we have in the books. I would definetly be tempted to see a blue print design built of Hogwarts Castle. I know I would help, I love drawing.:tu: :tu:

I've held the belief that the giant squid is gaurding something in the lake, so it could be very possible there is an entrance located somewhere under the lake leading to gringotts.

That is possible that the squid is gaurding some entrance within the lake but what if it is another entrance to the chamber of secrets. What if the squid is gaurding that entrance instead. :)

[Liselle]

That is possible that the squid is guarding some entrance within the lake but what if it is another entrance to the chamber of secrets. What if the squid is gaurding that entrance instead. :)
....thats an interesting point Jill! I'm not saying that there definitely some link between Gringotts and Hogwarts/hogsmede locale but there are only two lakes mentioned in the series so far to my knowledge so I just thought I would point it out.....I like the notion of something like a "floo-network" which is what I was trying to explain actually day one.....if you went far enough to the lake that you'd come out in Gringotts....


as for the rooms in Hogwarts, I've zero idea, I think that JK has said that they move around.....I'm sure that there have been mentions of classrooms in different places....good luck with it though!!
Liselle

[lilducky04]

I know that JRK never said that the COS was under the lake, but if you noticed in most of the books, Ron has very sarcastic comments. When talking about Tom Riddle he says,

"Maybe he got thirty OWL's or saved a teacher from the giant squid. Maybe he murdered Myrtle; that would've done everyone a favor." (COS 252)

this is just one example, but when ron makes a sarcastic remark, most of the time it comes true. Hence the Myrtle thing. Also he said that maybe it was under the lake. My guess is that it is.

I don't see why Gringotts and the lake couldn't be connected. The only thing, is that it would be extremly risky for it to be a two way connection. To be able to go from the lake to gringotts would totally breach security. And if that was tru,e Dumbledore could have gotten the stone himself....

Also about coincidence, someone said JRK does have them. With the whole peter being with Ron. It may SEEM like one, but JKR didn't put him with the weasleys for no reason. That's what JKR doesn't do...she doesn't write coincidentally. If something small is brought up more than once, most likely it is something bigger than you think....

thats all for now... :)

[SomeDude]

I dont think the Chamber is under the lake!

Ron says "under the lake, probably" (notice the word probably!) Not all of his sarcastic comments have come true!

Also, the basilisk was using the plumbing was it not? That could be the reason why the walls were wet!

BUT I will admit that the squid has to eventually have some reason apart from putting Dennis Creavey back into his boat! ;)

[Liselle]

I know that JRK never said that the COS was under the lake, but if you noticed in most of the books, Ron has very sarcastic comments. When talking about Tom Riddle he says,

"Maybe he got thirty OWL's or saved a teacher from the giant squid. Maybe he murdered Myrtle; that would've done everyone a favor." (COS 252)

this is just one example, but when ron makes a sarcastic remark, most of the time it comes true. Hence the Myrtle thing. Also he said that maybe it was under the lake. My guess is that it is.

I don't see why Gringotts and the lake couldn't be connected. The only thing, is that it would be extremly risky for it to be a two way connection. To be able to go from the lake to gringotts would totally breach security. And if that was tru,e Dumbledore could have gotten the stone himself....

Also about coincidence, someone said JRK does have them. With the whole peter being with Ron. It may SEEM like one, but JKR didn't put him with the weasleys for no reason. That's what JKR doesn't do...she doesn't write coincidentally. If something small is brought up more than once, most likely it is something bigger than you think....

thats all for now... :)
.....the whole scabbers living with the Weasleys, there is no way I believe that was a coincidence at all....just look at the way that Percy behaved in the OOTP......We know Voldie has the ability to create dischord, and thats what has happened with the Weasleys in my opinion, whether Peter Pettigrew had anything to do with that I'm not so clear on but its NOT A COINCIDENCE!!

As for Ron's sarcastic/joking comments not always being true, hmm maybe but a good 95% of them do.....he makes better observations when he's joking than being serious thats for sure

Liselle

[siriusblue]

It's a bit far from the Gringotts-Lake guesses,
but have you ever wondered WHY exactly
are taken the first years in a boat to Hogwarts?
No matter what the weather is like?
I think some serious ancient protecting
spell can be achieved throught this boat-trip,
that's why they have to take it.

Siriusblue

[Liselle]

It's a bit far from the Gringotts-Lake guesses,
but have you ever wondered WHY exactly
are taken the first years in a boat to Hogwarts?
No matter what the weather is like?
I think some serious ancient protecting
spell can be achieved throught this boat-trip,
that's why they have to take it.

Siriusblue
....you know you could be onto something there SiriusBlue....some ancient protective magic going on there perchance...I like that theory alot. It is dangerous, especially Dennis Creevy falling overboard like he did on the way.....

Lets get the theories in people!
Liselle

[Liselle]

*bump*

[DarkMark90]

Siriusblue, you may really be on to something! An ancient protecting spell? I never thought of that! But if it was ancient, what would it be protecting them from?

I think the reason the squid put Dennis back in his boat was that he didn't want something to attack him...

[Liselle]

...or he didn't want him to drown?!

With all the water mentions in COS from Myrtle in her bathroom, flooding the floors, the water in the chamber itself and so on that there may be more to the lake than we had thought at first. I don't think that its just an attractive landscaping feature....especially when you consider in GOF that Dumstrang ship appeared in the middle of it presumably after either navigating an underwater network or some sort of teleporting/port key scenario.

[Drusilla]

OK,I've posted this on the thread previously,but in this theory by Joseph Campbell called 'The Hero's Journey' (which contains quite a lot of parallels to Harry Potter),the hero has to get to the scene of his adventures for the first time by crossing either a bridge or a waterbody.Cross the lake is what first-years (and Harry,as one) have to do to get to Hogwarts for the first time.And Hogwarts is where the action really starts...does anyone agree with me?
Another idea is that maybe the lake is part of Hogwarts' magical defences-others being the Forbidden Forest etc.Or maybe it's just part of a ceremonial welcome for the first-years.

[whizbang121]

In the layers thread ahile back, we had a rousing discussion about underground water connections along with exploding toilets around London and the possibility that DE were trying to break into Hogwarts through the plumbing, perhaps invading through the Chamber of Secrets. JKR says that Myrtle will be back again. Myrtle moves around in the plumbing, too. She gets to the Lake and and ahem the Prefect's Bathroom, where there is a portrait of a mermaid. Hmmmm.........
The Prefect's Bathroom .........
:huh:

[dansewell]

Maybe if you go deep enough into the lake it would end but carry on, maybe to the side or something. Then when you go along this side you have to go up again and now you are in the gringots lake.
About the 'ikle firs' years crossing the lake, Well you must know that Hogwarts is protected to luuk like a dump to muggles. Well maybe it is the fiddilius (sp?) charm ang Hagrid is secret keeper and says something to the students about the castle. When Harry, Ron and Hermione cross the lake with the rest of the people in their year Hagrid says ''You'l get your firs' glimpse of the castle in a minuit" He says ''Castle" it is suposed to be a dump (to all who aint been told).

[LouisaB]

I never thought about the lake being connected to anything like that. I doubt if it is connected to Gringotts though as it is a high security bank and it would be rather odd to have some sort of back door in there, especially since there are so many creatures living in the lake at Hogwarts.

I agree though that the lake at Hogwarts could be connected by some sort of system to the other school and perhaps other places.

Never even noticed the water in the walls in the Slytherin common room. Will have to re-watch that and check it out.

[whizbang121]

And remember how the Durmstrang ship just rose out of the lake. There must be subterranean connections to other waterways. And don't forget that Dumbledore has a useful scar that is a perfect map of the London Underground above his left knee. [PS/SS] Maybe the cupboard under the stairs is connected to one of the old stations in the underground. There are apparently quite a few of them.

We realy got into this last March in the Second Layers (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?p=834057&highlight=underground#post834057) thread. That thread is closed now but there was a gold mine of information if anyone is interested in the London underground and reguritating toilets starting around post # 1030.

[Tane]

It could be the surface of an underground lake at Hogwarts and Gringotts. The two lakes at the two locations are connected because they belong to the same lake maybe. What is the proper name given to an underground lake; it can't just be called an underground lake can it.

[effulgent]

I like the idea of the lake being a portal/portkey. Something like a portkey would be the most likely. Maybe the squiddie is a portkey? No, then Dennis would have gone off into the wild blue yonder.

If the squid is protecting something...what? I think someone mentioned the Chamber of secrets. Maybe the squid is protecting the students? (Someone said it may be one of the reasons Hogwarts is so safe- if so, I would bet my wand that DD has regular conversations with it. :eyebrows: ) It has never been harmful to any of them, yet the mere notion of a giant squid makes me shake in my boots like Ron and spiders...? Just a ploy, perhaps? Like people who put "Beware of Dog" signs and dog bowls out, when they have no dogs, just to deter burglars?

[teacher mode] Also, technically the only "underground lake" I can think of is an aquifer, which is located in the rock layer. I don't think it's a traditional lake- more along the lines of water stored in the pores between rocks, and it doesn't connect to the surface until we drill down there and put pipes to the surface, etc. [/ teacher mode] :p

[17sickles]

I don't really know. It seems as thought it could be possible, but if you have two safe places then you wouldn't want to connect them would you? Then you would only have one safe place. I don't know but doubt they're connected. The lake may be some type of portal though, that seems more likely to me.

[rjade829]

this is such an interesting theory!!! =)

and JKR DID say that we would be seeing viktor krum again ("though not soon"--so maybe in book 7?), so maybe then we will find out more about how durmstrang actually got to hogwarts and if the lake had anything to do with it

[EJS]

I was reading an article in Architectural Digest from 2002, about the set designs of the first two movies. It states in the article that JK told the production designer that the Slytherin common room was under the lake and lit by light filtering through the water. So, in the COS it is supposed to look like water behind the windows. This might be an important clue for the future books because JK made the point to tell the production designer to add this to the movie. Personally while watching the movie I never gave any notice to the windows, but now I am going to go and rewatch the movie to see if i can notice now.

[linzee4life]

It has to be important if JK told them that specifically.

[vitacus]

In Goblet Of Fire the lake test part of the Triwizard tournament could be a great preparation for a lake-way infiltration into Slytherin House for Harry, what with making another Polyjuice Potion would be boring. Swim on down and peek through a window wearing a wet invisibility cloak and utilize the extendable ears maybe? Hmm, re-reading what I've just typed it seems farfetched. But I'll post it anyway. I'm not afraid of looking stupid. :)

[CaseyAlthea]

Has anyone looked at the thread on Majorica? (in Divination Studies ... short and fun!) There's a discussion there about its famous underground lakes, with pictures of underground lakes. They're beautiful places.

I like the idea of water portals to other magical and muggle places. But toilets ... ew! Whizbang, do you really think Myrtle is the mermaid? No way. She couldn't be so coy. LOL! It's just not in her! Although the mermaid in the picture isn't at all like the people in the lake.

Actually, the merpeople of the lake remind me a little of the legend of the "finfolk" (popular among the Orkney Islands). Here's a fun link on finfolk (and selkies and mermaids!):

http://www.orkneyjar.com/folklore/finfolk/heem.htm

[Padfoot_001]

This was a really good thought, you've put alot into it. However, I do know that JK is trippy and puts alot of odd stuff in her books - lots of tiwsts and turns - but I don't think there is anything more to the lake than meets the eye. Its just another interesting feature, like the forest. If your saying the lake is important because of all the creatures in it, then the forest would be important too because it to has many odd creatures. I seewhere your comming from however and it did make me stop and think. Good theory. :rotfl:

[Grærium]

I strongly doubt every bit of what you are trying to say. The relationship is so farfetched it's like trying to say that Godric and Salazar were brothers.

[whizbang121]

I strongly doubt every bit of what you are trying to say. The relationship is so farfetched it's like trying to say that Godric and Salazar were brothers.

Well that's interesting, but ..... :huh:

Thanks for the positive feedback. CaseyAlthea, I'm off to find the thread on Majorca. But Myrtle is definitely a ghost. ;) Not a mermaid.

The MoM is also subterranean and I think, St Mungo's.
And Dumbledore's scar that is a perfect map of the London Underground is something I keep coming back to. JKR loves trains. There are train tickets on her desktop at her website and when she tells the story of how Harry came to her, it all started on a train.
Platform 9 3/4, like the page number for the chapter on werewolves, 394, adds up to one of JKR's favorite numbers - 12.

Trains, lakes, subterranean offices, banks and hospitals, not to mention secret chambers. What is going on beneath the surface of Britain? :)

What next? The loch ness monster? :lol:

[CaseyAlthea]

Trains, lakes, subterranean offices, banks and hospitals, not to mention secret chambers. What is going on beneath the surface of Britain? :)

Oh, oh, oh! I just read this and your last post on the Majorica thread. Put those two posts together ... there is something going on underneath the surface!

And how unbelieveably perfect, perfect, perfect ... if the lake and these underground caverns play a big part in the next novels, how perfectly ... Oh, the writing would be wonderful! The plot would reflect the theme! In the plot, we will delve beneath the surface of Britain; thematically, readers will be exposed to a) the nasty underbelly of close-minded political systems, b) the id (dark side of the self), c) what "lies beneath" (graves, the dead, death).

...Additionally, you can see JKR making a comment on the sort of fiction she is writing; she's speaking to critics about the ways in which we organize literary canons. Things may seem like children's literature, but the underlying archetypal images in fantasy and fairy tale fiction speak to humanity in essential ways. (Okay, maybe this last claim about the value of fantasy literature was over the top. :blush: )

Okay everyone. Sorry to get so English-teachery. I just got excited. :p Back to sources in the text that talk about water and the lake:

Toilets (Harry, Myrtle)
Plumbing
The lake at Hogwarts
The lake under Gringotts
Underground lakes in Majorica?

The Squid in the Lake
The Basilisk who used the pipes
The Merpeople

[whizbang121]

CaseyAlthea, a while ago, some of us got a little frustrated with the difficulty of allowing a discussion to evolve beyond the constraints of the thread topic, so the mods let us have a thread called "Layers in Harry Potter" where the idea was to bring any topic discussed in various threads and discuss its relationship to other topics. It's much easier to get an overall view this way. Last March in Layers, we really got into the underground thing.




I suspect that the lakes are connected above and below the surface. The fact that Harry could actually see one on his trolley ride through Gringotts fascinates me. Think I'll start a thread on all this, here. (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?p=1021090#post1021090)
:eyebrows:

[whizbang121]

bump

[Shauna]

Toilets (Harry, Myrtle)
Plumbing
The lake at Hogwarts
The lake under Gringotts
Underground lakes in Majorica?

The Squid in the Lake
The Basilisk who used the pipes
The Merpeople

Don't forget Willy Widdershins and his messing with the toilets! :)

This is really an interesting theory. JKR really hasn't shown us a lot about what goes on underwater in the wizarding world.

Shauna

[Remus Black]

I don't think they are connected, because that would make it too easy to break into Gringotts. Someone could just dive into the lake and using gillyweed, swim into Gringotts.
Good idea though! :)

[Liselle]

What next? The loch ness monster? :lol:


Well there's always the giant squid!!

[Devon]

linked lakes... lets all say that 20 times in fast succession. hehe.

Well, I have NO idea what's going on in JKRs head. But I think that the the lakes could very well be linked. And i'd been wondering if the lake would come up in the next books as well. Maybe Voldemort will posess a merperson and attempt to drag harry into the depths and his impending death... Who knows. We shall see though.

-Devon

[aggiefan1206]

it is a definate possibility

[whizbang121]

I don't think they are connected, because that would make it too easy to break into Gringotts. Someone could just dive into the lake and using gillyweed, swim into Gringotts.
Good idea though! :)
Maybe that's exactly how Quirrell did it in PS/SS/

[Fubuki998]

I don't think that the underground lake from Gringotts and the lake at Hogwarts are connected. The Goblins would have spotted such a link and they would probably done something about it to make sure their vaults are the safest possible.

About the Hogwarts lake, for what we've seen so far, the squid seems to be a nice creature to the students, but in the second task, Harry goes into the lake and wonders why the giant squid is nowhere to be seen, and when he gets to the merpeople village, he sees some kind of painting of them fighting to squid, so why would the merpeople would fight the giant squid ? Probably Dumbledore knows. Would it be also the Headmaster who would have "told" the squid that the champions who were in the lake were not a threat to something it is guarding, so it's why we don't see it ? But my principal question is why would a squid, who usually lives in oceans (salted water) would be found in a lake who doesn't seem to be filled with salted water nor having a connection with the ocean?

My guess would be that the giant squid is guarding something, since the salted water hypothesis, but also the link between beasts and the guarding duty, because most of the time there was some big monster at Hogwarts, it seemed to be guarding something : Fluffy, the basilisk, trolls (Gryffindor common room book3)...