Muggle Borns...how?

[SlythieSami]

I searched and couldnt find anything.....so forgive me if there is a post like this.....


How exactly does two parents without a trace of magical blood produce a witch or wizard?

[hesdead-dealwithit]

I couldn't find anything either . . .

If you've ever taking any sort of heredity course/unit, you know what a recessive gene is. Magical ability is probably recessive.

There are two types of alleles, for those that need more of an explanation, recessive and dominant. Everyone has two alleles for one trait. (What's an allele? - just say it's what determines a trait.) If you have two dominant alleles, you have the dominant trait. If you have two recessive alleles, you have the recessive trait. If you have one of each, you have the dominant trait, as it is "dominant over the recessive trait.

For example, if brown eyes are the dominant trait and blue eyes are the recessive trait, and you have one allele of each, you will not have a mixture of the colors, but two eyes that are completely brown.

So. If both of your parents carry exactly one recessive blue eye allele, but both have brown eyes, they could possibly each give you their recessive blue eye allele, and you have two blue eye alleles - meaning you will have blue eyes.

Now, say magical ability is the recessive allele. If both of your parents have one allele for magical ability and one for not, the Muggle allele will be dominant over the magical allele. However, it's possible for both of your parents to give you the magical allele, and you end up being magical, when both of your parents are Muggles.

However, there is a lot more to this subject. If you want me to get into the emotional basis of magic, the continuum theory, and lots of other stuff, just ask. And those are all theories, of course, I (and others) could definitely be wrong. But the above explanation is a barebones explanation of how someone with two Muggle parents could end up being a witch or wizard.

[RectilinearP]

I searched and couldnt find anything.....so forgive me if there is a post like this.....


How exactly does two parents without a trace of magical blood produce a witch or wizard?

Good question. I've always assumed that those families actually did have a wizard relative way back. However, this doesn't explain squibs.

Maybe it's a dominant/recessive gene thing. Maybe squibs are caused by genetic defects? Like how some disorders are caused by the wrong number of chromosones being present? I haven't taken Biology in a while, I'm not sure if this makes sense.

[Loz]

Heya SlythieSami, :welcome: to CoSForums :)

There are actually two threads which sort of discuss this, Some Unanswered Questions About The Wizarding World (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=13089) and The Creeveys - Two wizards in a Non-Magical Family - Is it rare (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=9806).

However, it does seem to warrant a thread on it's own. It is one of those unanswered questions, and possibly is one that JKR doesn't exactly know the answer to herself. I don't think it's a matter of Genetics, or heredity (people have discussed whether Wizardry is a recessive Gene). I think it's one of life's little mysteries - magic of itself.

[SlythieSami]

I agree that the whole gene thing is too simple......too muggle a theory.....

Would the wizarding world have to pick out muggle familys to, uh, replace the magic population because of war, squibs, etc.?

[Furienna]

I have thought like this: Way back, as mich as millennias back, some people were born with magical powers. They didn't really belong to the non-magical, so they searched up each other instead and founded wizard communities. But though most magical people are born of at least one magical parent, still today, some people among the muggles are born with magical powers, the same way the first wizards were. Of course, in our days, it also helps to become a wizard if you have a magical ancestor. I think it helps to become a squib if you have a muggle ancestor too. When it comes to squibs, I think it is the other way around. Some people among the wizards are born without magigal powers.

It has a little to do with genetics, but magic is as good as the opposite of science. Magic is stronger than the laws of physics. I don't think magic can be explained scientifically.

[dumbleedore]

How do they create a muggle born? Well-

Nah, I won't do the 'How Babies Are Made' speel... :p

I've always thought that we all have magic genes, it's just that in a muggle born the magic genes are pronounced and active.

[Loz]

Why does it have to be genetic, though?

I don't remember JKR ever going into anything that would remotely signify a genetic reason for being a Wizard. What if it has something to do with your Soul, or your Lifeforce, or something entirely different? What if it's based on chemical balances in your brain?

[dumbleedore]

Chemical imbalance as Uncle Vernon would say :p

Good point Loz...

[Furienna]

How do they create a muggle born? Well-

Nah, I won't do the 'How Babies Are Made' speel... :p

:lol: :rotfl: I don't think we meant how a baby is made (we all know that, and how good it can be ;) ). We meant how muggle parents can have a wizard child, not how they can have any child.

[Wab]

Why does it have to be genetic, though?

I don't remember JKR ever going into anything that would remotely signify a genetic reason for being a Wizard. What if it has something to do with your Soul, or your Lifeforce, or something entirely different? What if it's based on chemical balances in your brain?

It's been hinted so much that it doesn't need to be explicitly stated.

It runs in families.

It apparently works in similar ways to heredity.

The Black family tree is pretty solid eveidence that it's an inheritable trait.

[Dedalus Diggle]

A good comparison is probably musical talent. It clearly runs in some families, such as the Bachs of the 17-1800s, and several other noteworthy families. There are other families where the talent may not be as great as that, but music is always around and being plyed and the environment of the family shows kids the ropes. And many children of very musical parents may have no talent or interest at all. There is clearly some genetic component, in talent, interest and drive, but there are environmental factors as well.

[familiar]

It's just magic. I mean, genetics aren't predictable and they also aren't the only reason things happen. There is also an element of mutation that occurs each time DNA is passed on to a new baby. My dad and his 6 sisters and brother have brown eyes (native american with 1/16th French) and my mom and her 7 sisters and brothers have blue eyes (irish) and all their kids have brown or blue eyes. I, on the other hand have green eyes and the only one good at computers. I'm saying this because both DNA and mutation determine what you will be. I can see the same thing happening in muggle families with magic children.

1. There may be no genes for magic and mutation creates one during conception and a witch or wizard is born.

2. There may be another case where a recessive gene (from a magic relative 100 or more years ago) becomes dominate and a witch or wizard is born.

3. I also heard that we have DNA that are switched off because as human's we don't need a tail or fur. What if the magic gene is switched off, but when the baby is conceived the gene gets switched on for some reason and you get a witch or wizard. So everyone has the magic gene, but it's only active in a small percentage of people. Have you ever seen those boys in Mexico with the fur on their faces? We all have that gene, but for some reason these boys have that gene switched on, but the rest of us have it switched off.

[Barbara Kennedy]

You are right that genetics is not predictable.

What I mean by that is that the genetic makeup necessary for the magic ability may NOT be decided by a single gene, but by a certain combination of several genes. If any number of these genes is 'wrong' or missing you may get a muggle or a squib. (Yes, I believe a 'muggle-born squib' is possible because of that.)

[Masterfroggy]

You are right that genetics is not predictable.

What I mean by that is that the genetic makeup necessary for the magic ability may NOT be decided by a single gene, but by a certain combination of several genes. If any number of these genes is 'wrong' or missing you may get a muggle or a squib. (Yes, I believe a 'muggle-born squib' is possible because of that.)

Do you mean a muggle who should have been born a wizard/witch, but is not magical?

[dumbleedore]

I think any muggle is a muggle born squid, is that what you're implying Barbara?

[Barbara Kennedy]

Yes, essentially, Masterfroggy. What I meant is that they would have the same gene sequence as a squib that had been born of magical parents. The sequence is just not quite right to have magical powers.

There may even be degrees of "squibness" laying somewhere between having magic and being a muggle.

[thatsmeb]

can i ask what exactly is a squib?

[Marge]

A squib is a person born to Magical parents, but who has no magical ability themselves. (The opposite of a magical person born to muggle parents).

[Auror Williamson]

If one person in a family has magical ability, then that means that someone in the past in the family had to have been a witch or wizard, or at least a squib. With that said, I wonder who it was in the Granger family.

[Da_Chinkster]

It would have to be quite a few generations back because if it was grandparents or great grandparents, I would assume her parents would have found out and would know a bit more about witchcraft and wizardry. I'd say about 6 or 7 generations back and the wizarding gene was lost down through the generations

[Kirsten]

I did post a long theory somewhere about magical ability as a recessive trait, but I can't remember where it was. It might have been the Is Petunia a Squib thread. Do a search on gene, allele, dominant, recessive, and it'll turn up!

[Furienna]

I believe there was such a post in a thread about pure-bloods. Could that be right?

[Elocin4684]

If one person in a family has magical ability, then that means that someone in the past in the family had to have been a witch or wizard, or at least a squib. With that said, I wonder who it was in the Granger family.

Is that stated anywhere? Or is it just a theory? I always thought it was a theory that hadn't been confirmed yet, but I do believe that's probably what happens.



Also, if it is true that you had to have somebody else in your family be magical for you to be magical, I would think that Hermione would have found out who that was in her family.


If the above is true, then it probably happened becaue someone was a squib and married into a muggle family and never told that person that their family was magical.

[Furienna]

I think muggles can have children with magic powers without having magic relatives. Some time back in the day, the first wizards must have occured, and the first wizards would have non-magic parents. After a while, when they were many enough, the magic people started living together in a society parallell to the muggle one. I don't know how JKR herself thinks about her world, but this is what I find likely.

[Kirsten]

If you go with the theory that magic is a recessive gene, it's entirely possible that a witch/wizard born a couple of thousand years ago could have passed on the magic gene recessively, generation after generation, and it wouldn't show up until a descendant mated with someone else with a magic gene - which could also be someone who had a recessive magic gene which hadn't shown in the family for a thousand years.

[Furienna]

I believe magic has to be dominant though, because otherwise, so few people with a muggle parent and a magic parent would be magic, but now, most such people are magic. (examples: Voldemort and Seamus Finnigan)

[roz]

If there is truth to the gene theory then I think that it is more complicated then a single pair of genes. I think that it is more likely that there are a combination of genes which together give the bearer the required affinity to magic. But if a single one of those is missing then we have either a muggle or a squib.

Roz.

[Heretic]

come on guys it's magic.
Analyse magic too much its no longer magic its called science.
Anyway if there were no muggle-borns by now all wizards would be thoroughly inbred and look something like the elephant man. Even if some were half-bloods.

[Legnar]

I searched and couldnt find anything.....so forgive me if there is a post like this.....


How exactly does two parents without a trace of magical blood produce a witch or wizard?
it's magic

[Heretic]

Nice thinking Legnar.

[Kirsten]

I believe magic has to be dominant though, because otherwise, so few people with a muggle parent and a magic parent would be magic, but now, most such people are magic. (examples: Voldemort and Seamus Finnigan)
Not if the non-magic parent has a recessive magical gene.

[Furienna]

come on guys it's magic.
Analyse magic too much its no longer magic its called science.
True enough. Magic doesn't follow the laws of physics, so why should it follow the laws of genes?
Not if the non-magic parent has a recessive magical gene.
Yeah, but it doesn't matter, since JkR probably didn't think of this when she wrote the books and.. well, see my reply to Heretic above.

[jac1985]

I believe it's because of there ancestors. Im not sure that if your are a witch then you will definetly have a witch or wizard but. If it is possible, then may its in teh blood, just not the immediate parents blood.

[ErickGama]

As what I know, is that the Ministry of Magic is watching everyone and they chose the best kids with magical influence (act to be magic, want to be magic) and then they send them letters to join the school. Am I right? Or did I just embarrased myself with this thing?

[RemusLupinFan]

In answer to your question ErickGama, I believe there is a magic quill that senses the birth of a magical child and writes his/her name down for later reference. When a child is 11, he/she gets a letter inviting them to come to Hogwarts or whatever magical school is closest to them.

About the chances of two muggle parents having a magical child, it must be based on chance. But being one who instincually looks for the logical, scientific answer to things, I think that one can claim a genetic argument:

the genetic makeup necessary for the magic ability may NOT be decided by a single gene, but by a certain combination of several genes. If any number of these genes is 'wrong' or missing you may get a muggle or a squib. (Yes, I believe a 'muggle-born squib' is possible because of that.)

This explanation seems very reasonable to me. Also, I'd like to add to it by saying that the gene(s) for magic may be recessive in muggles and dominant in witches and wizards the way baldness is dominant in men and recessive in women.

[Queen of Wise]

I would say it's genetic, but for all we know, it could just be random. In the case that it's genetic, it would happen the same way that 2 brown eyed people have a blue eyed kid...as someone said up above^....In the case that its random..well then I guess people are randomly chosen to have magic in their blood.:)

[Elocin4684]

In answer to your question ErickGama, I believe there is a magic quill that senses the birth of a magical child and writes his/her name down for later reference. When a child is 11, he/she gets a letter inviting them to come to Hogwarts or whatever magical school is closest to them.

About the chances of two muggle parents having a magical child, it must be based on chance. But being one who instincually looks for the logical, scientific answer to things, I think that one can claim a genetic argument:



This explanation seems very reasonable to me. Also, I'd like to add to it by saying that the gene(s) for magic may be recessive in muggles and dominant in witches and wizards the way baldness is dominant in men and recessive in women.

The way I understood the magic quill is that it writes down all the children with magical abilities on a scroll but if the child doesn't show any magical abilities, then they might not get invited to Hogwarts. See how Neville's family was worried because he didn't show anything. But maybe the quill can tell the difference. Also, I thought the quill was only used in Britain so they would be invited to Hogwarts, but maybe it's a world wide thing. Or each country has something similar.



Hmm... my nurse roommate was going on about how 2 brown eyed people can't have a blue eyed child, but, now that I think about it, that should be possible...

It has to be genetic (magic, that is), or else there would be a lot more muggle-borns and a lot less magical children being born to witches and wizards.

[Furienna]

I guess every magical school might have a quill like that or something similar.

[fawkes5]

Ahhh, but there is a bit of science in JK's magic!

Genes could still explain it. Anything can happen genetically if you have mutations. Maybe something in the muggle genes mutate to produce a witch or wizard even if there was no magical ancestor. If genetics as we know it is used to explain magical inheritance it won't be a simple dominant and recessive thing.

But I also like that it doesn't have to be genetics. Maybe its something we haven't heard of yet and JK already has a theory on it somewhere in those notes of hers.

[Bee]

It's been covered, but I too think that being a wizard is a recessive gene. That's why most people are "normal" and some are wizards. With the purebloods, there has been so many recessive genes among so few people that the recessive gene has actually become dominant in the pureblood community.

[luna the pixie]

I searched and couldnt find anything.....so forgive me if there is a post like this.....


How exactly does two parents without a trace of magical blood produce a witch or wizard?


lets look at this scientifically. now lets consider that wizardry was a heritable trait. if both parents were heterozygous with the trait of wizardry (in this case wizardry would be recessive rather than dominant) if you do a punnett square, there's 25% chance that two muggles would have a wizard child.

[Elocin4684]

Hmm... I do believe that Jo does already have it down how 2 muggles have a witch or wizard. I'm sure she thought of this when she created Hermione. Surely she knew the question would arise from readers how Hermione's parents produced a witch.

Also, it seems that if a witch or wizard comes from 2 muggles, their siblings will be magical, also. Look at the Creevey brothers. I think there are other example, also, but I'm not sure. Then again, look at Lily and Petunia, but there are a lot of other theories surrounding this.

[OmarGama]

I couldn't find anything either . . .

If you've ever taking any sort of heredity course/unit, you know what a recessive gene is. Magical ability is probably recessive.

There are two types of alleles, for those that need more of an explanation, recessive and dominant. Everyone has two alleles for one trait. (What's an allele? - just say it's what determines a trait.) If you have two dominant alleles, you have the dominant trait. If you have two recessive alleles, you have the recessive trait. If you have one of each, you have the dominant trait, as it is "dominant over the recessive trait.

For example, if brown eyes are the dominant trait and blue eyes are the recessive trait, and you have one allele of each, you will not have a mixture of the colors, but two eyes that are completely brown.

So. If both of your parents carry exactly one recessive blue eye allele, but both have brown eyes, they could possibly each give you their recessive blue eye allele, and you have two blue eye alleles - meaning you will have blue eyes.

Now, say magical ability is the recessive allele. If both of your parents have one allele for magical ability and one for not, the Muggle allele will be dominant over the magical allele. However, it's possible for both of your parents to give you the magical allele, and you end up being magical, when both of your parents are Muggles.

However, there is a lot more to this subject. If you want me to get into the emotional basis of magic, the continuum theory, and lots of other stuff, just ask. And those are all theories, of course, I (and others) could definitely be wrong. But the above explanation is a barebones explanation of how someone with two Muggle parents could end up being a witch or wizard.

That's a good point, you are right and I agree 100% woth you :tu:

[glugunkwen]

my nurse roommate was going on about how 2 brown eyed people can't have a blue eyed child, but, now that I think about it, that should be possible...

It is possible - my parents both have brown eyes, but my 3 siblings have blue eyes.

I don't think muggles having a magic baby has anything to do with genes. I think it has to do with a talent that is somehow born. Like how some kids are amazingly intelligent when it comes to math, or sports. Instead of being a whiz kid in science, the witch or wizard is a whiz kid in magic.

[FleetAdmiralJ]

Here is a theory....say that magic is a two gened thing....genes A and gene B, and each person as two pairs of each gene. Lets say that you have "A" and "B" which are magic genes and "a" and "b" which are non-magic genes. Also, you have to have BOTH "A" and "B" to be a wizard. This would make it possible for a muggle to have a wizard child. For example, if the muggle father had the genes Aabb and the mother had aaBb, neither of them would be wizard, but there is a chance that their offspring could be a AaBb...which would make that offspring a wizard.

How about squibs then? Well, say one wizard had AaBb, and another had AABb, or something. A child of theirs COULD have Aabb, which would not make them a wizard. The only CERTAINTIES for someone's offspring would be "pure" muggles (one parent is a pure aabb) or pure wizards (one parents is AABB).

[alpha_hazard]

The Gene thing is a compelling thought, but how does it explain Squibs? if Wizardy were a recessive trait it would require a muggle to have a squib.

[FleetAdmiralJ]

How muggles dont have squibs i dont know. Thats one of the mysteries. The genetics example just shows how muggleborns and squibs can occur. As for the rest...I dont know.

[Classical_Wizar]

wizards have squibs not muggles

[FleetAdmiralJ]

wizards have squibs not muggles

No, but we were wondering, if it was genetic...how is it that Wizards can have squibs, which still have SOME powers (ie the ability to see dementors) when muggles cannot.

[Classical_Wizar]

Well Squibs are wizard born but unable to channel the magic being born in the wizard world they probably have developed some self awareness while muggles aren’t around magic everyday so they haven’t.

[squirpy]

ok, if M is muggle and it's dominant, and w is wizard and it's recessive, the gene chart thing would look like this (I hope this formats right):

-------------------
......M | w
-------------------
M | MM | Mw
-------------------
w | Mw | ww
-------------------

so if two Muggle parents with one wizarding gene have a 1/4 chance of having a magical child, and a 1/2 chance of having children with one hidden wizarding gene.

But if a pure Muggle (MM) mates with a wizard (ww) or a muggle with the gene (Mw), they have no chance of having magical children. So unless a wizard mates with an Mw muggle or a wizard, all their children will be squibs.

This leads me to beleive that there is no scientific basis for magical genes in Harry Potter :) (unless it's one of those if you have this gene and this gene, the magic gene turns on things).

[Furienna]

No, but we were wondering, if it was genetic...how is it that Wizards can have squibs, which still have SOME powers (ie the ability to see dementors) when muggles cannot.
Squibs can't see dementors. Mrs Figgs lied to save Harry's neck. She even said they ran at first, until she was corrected.

Furthemore, I don't believe the magic gene is recessive though, but dominant, cause how else can most half blood be magical too? How would Voldemort or Seamus Finnigan have magical powers if they fathers don't have them if it's recessive and not dominant?

[APoetsInstinct]

Hey everyone, remember one of the main themes of this book. Magic. Some things just happen because of magic. Muggle-borns like Hermione were just lucky enough to have that little extra bit included in their lives. Squibs, on the other hand, were unfortunate enough to have that part taken away. There doesn't always have to be a specific reason, other than to work out some grand design. If Hermione hadn't been a muggle born or a wizard at all, then Harry most likely wouldn't have been able to overcome alll the challenges he has faced so far. And, likewise, if Filch hadn't been a squib then other things may never have happened in the first place. It's just magic.

[Furienna]

Hey everyone, remember one of the main themes of this book. Magic. Some things just happen because of magic. Muggle-borns like Hermione were just lucky enough to have that little extra bit included in their lives. Squibs, on the other hand, were unfortunate enough to have that part taken away. There doesn't always have to be a specific reason, other than to work out some grand design. If Hermione hadn't been a muggle born or a wizard at all, then Harry most likely wouldn't have been able to overcome alll the challenges he has faced so far. And, likewise, if Filch hadn't been a squib then other things may never have happened in the first place. It's just magic.
True enough, but even if wizards can break the laws of physics, they can't break the laws of biology.

Allthough, I think you might have a point saying that some people just become magic, but it's random.