M-15 - Polygamy/Plural Marriages

[IcyIcicles]

Plural marriages isn't as common anymore and as big as an issue, but it has recently caught my attention and I don't like the idea of it. In certain towns in Canada and the USA, this practice still exists where one man can have as many wives as they want and produce double or triple the number of children a "normal" family usually have. (e.g. 1 man reportedly has 26 wives and 80 children.) Sometimes, the women do not have a choice. Although this is a tradition of the Mormon Church (their belief is something along the lines about the more spouses a man has, the larger the chance he'll become god - I might be wrong on this), I still believe this is something morally wrong to do. It is unequal and unfair to the other spouses, degrades the actual meaning of marriage and the experience of love, and affects the society by sending a bad message tot he next generation. In Canada, it has been made illegal but due to many reasons being that the marriages aren't official and protection of religious freedom from the Charter of Rights, the laws are not being enforced. I am not sure about the laws in the US but my questions for you to consider about are:

1) Is it "morally wrong" to practice polygamy? If yes, why?

2) If the people involved in this practice are happy and are doing it at their own will (man and women), should they be stopped?

3) Should the government enforce harder on these acts and proclaim it to be illegal even if it is considered to be a religions practice?

4) How does this compare with other issues like same sex marriage?

***Questions are directed towards polygamy as a whole generally, not just the cases given above.

[theseeker]

1) Is it "morally wrong" to practice polygamy? If yes, why?
Yes, I definitely think it is wrong! It is basically cheating/committing adultery. Are women allowed to have multiple husbands?

2) If the people involved in this practice are happy and are doing it at their own will (man and women), should they be stopped?
Well I suppose if people are happy being cheated on, that's their choice...

3) Should the government enforce harder on these acts and proclaim it to be illegal even if it is considered to be a religions practice?
Well I thought in most First World countries you could only be married to one person, but I'm not sure.

4) How does this compare with other issues like same sex marriage?
Well, I kind of believe it's really the choice of the people involved.

[hermy_weasley2]

1) Is it "morally wrong" to practice polygamy? If yes, why?

It's usually a religious custom, so in the religions and religious branches that allow it, it's not morally wrong. I think it's Utah where men can have more than one wife. Doesn't polygamy concern Mormans(spellig?) ? I could be wrong, and if I am, please correct me. I know that polygamy was once common among a few American Indian/ Native American nations, but I don't know if it's still practiced in those nations. In this case, it's not wrong.

2) If the people involved in this practice are happy and are doing it at their own will (man and women), should they be stopped?

In the places where it's practiced in the U.S. no one's forced into it, and like i said before, if it's customary to a certain group of people, then they shouldn't be stopped. Who are we to tell them their customs are wrong?


3) Should the government enforce harder on these acts and proclaim it to be illegal even if it is considered to be a religions practice?

No, because if you believe it's not wrong based on your religion, then it's freedom of religion.

4) How does this compare with other issues like same sex marriage?

It's controversial, I guess.




Well I thought in most First World countries you could only be married to one person, but I'm not sure

I would assume it is, but it shouldn't be. It's illegal in most states in the U.S., but it shouldn't be. Like I said before, the practice was common among some American Indians/Native Americans (whatever the politically correct term for the collective name is now), and if they live on reservations, the laws are different there(I think). Then again, I don't know how common it is today among the nations they practiced it in the past.






Are women allowed to have multiple husbands?

I guess it depends on the group of people. It's probably legal, if that's what you mena. I'm not sure though.

[imamuggle831]

im not gonna make this one long its easy!put yuor self as the wife who finds out her loved one is marrying!how would u feal?

[hermy_weasley2]

im not gonna make this one long its easy!put yuor self as the wife who finds out her loved one is marrying!how would u feal?


Well, in some cultures, it's perfectly acceptable. I wouldn't like it, but I don't have any right to tell people their cultures are wrong. I don't believe the government has any right to do that either. Maybe there should be a law that says the spouse has to give his/her consent.

[imamuggle831]

i agree

[The Oracle]

im not gonna make this one long its easy!put yuor self as the wife who finds out her loved one is marrying!how would u feal?

From the stories I've heard, polygamy isn't forced adultery. At least with how it's practiced from the Christian POV.
http://www.polygamy.com/

All the stories I've seen on 20/20 and shows like that are all about happy families. The women have no problem sharing and it's not like the family is a secret from potential wives. The women know right from the start that there are other "wives." No one's forced into anything, but sometimes there are families that get 14 year olds to marry into these things and that's really questionable in my mind. Otherwise, I don't see the problem. It's a lifestyle choice that's rooted in their religious beliefs. *shrugs* To each their own.

[Angora]

This is another example of why I don't think we should recognize marriage - because, how are you going to calculate the tax benefits and things? No, seriously. Well... sort of seriously.

As long as a) it's not a secret from the multiple wives/husbands b) the multiple wives/husbands are down with that and c) it's not some kind of discriminatory thing (ie: I can see other people and you can't) ... I don't see anything wrong with it.

I mean, if you married someone, and found out that they wanted to marry multiple other people and you didn't like that... all you have to do is get divorced. Simple.

[GryffindorSeeker]

is a tradition of the Mormon Church (their belief is something along the lines about the more spouses a man has, the larger the chance he'll become god - I might be wrong on this),

It's no longer a tradition any more. It was for a very short period of time, but did not last long due to national laws. The belief was not that the more wives a man has the larger his chance is on becoming a god. Polgamy doesn't have anything to do with that. I'm sorry, I just had to point that out.

[IcyIcicles]

Alright...maybe the media deceived me on that point. But then from the documentary that I watched, some of the women really don't get to choose who they married, some at young ages like 15 and all that. In that town, "Bountiful" in Canada, the women also don't have a full education there....and because of all the marrying around, the relationships are all really close. In Colorado City in the US, (if I didn't remember wrong), some of the babies are handicapped. In those cases, the men are using the women as baby-making machines. So maybe something should be done about the situation there?

[hermy_weasley2]

Alright...maybe the media deceived me on that point. But then from the documentary that I watched, some of the women really don't get to choose who they married

Well other societies throughout the world have arranged marriages. I don't know if that's the same thing though. It's just how things work in those cultures.

some at young ages like 15 and all that.

A lot of states have laws against marrying at such young ages. most states require consent from th minor's parents. This may also be just another part of their culture.

In those cases, the men are using the women as baby-making machines.

This could happen in any marriage, but it doesn't mean the women aren't happy. They might've been raised to grow up and become mothers and wives. Maybe not all of them though. I don't know. I don't like it, but who am I to tell them how to live?


In Colorado City in the US, (if I didn't remember wrong), some of the babies are handicapped

Have you ever been to Alabama? ****That's a joke everybody! It's just a joke....I'm from Georgia, so I don't have any room to talk...

Again, that could happen with any family. And is Coloado City in colorado? I know that sounds like a stupid question, but there's a Kansas City in Missouri. You can't be sure.


And just to point something out, polygamy isn't very common in the U.S. I'm assuming it isn't in Canada either, but I always thought it was just as common here as it was in other places. Maybe I was wrong.

[IcyIcicles]

This could happen in any marriage, but it doesn't mean the women aren't happy. They might've been raised to grow up and become mothers and wives. Maybe not all of them though. I don't know. I don't like it, but who am I to tell them how to live?


I'm not here to attack and teach the women how to live, I'm just expressing my opinion and I'm sure you are too. Usually these towns are 'distanced' from the rest of the world, and with the women not getting a full education, many can't do much about it even if they don't like it, though some have managed to run away.


Have you ever been to Alabama? ****That's a joke everybody! It's just a joke....I'm from Georgia, so I don't have any room to talk...

Sorry...don't really understand what you mean by that.


Again, that could happen with any family. And is Coloado City in colorado? I know that sounds like a stupid question, but there's a Kansas City in Missouri. You can't be sure.

The reason it's happening there though with the handicapped babies is because the relationships are WAY too close.


And just to point something out, polygamy isn't very common in the U.S. I'm assuming it isn't in Canada either, but I always thought it was just as common here as it was in other places. Maybe I was wrong

It isn't as common, but it's still exists. I just thought it was an interesting topic to bring up...

[deathwish]

Personally i think that if a husband wants multiple wives, and if a wife wants more then one husband it should be all right. As long as they could divorce eachother if they wanted to.

Infact i think it sounds allright for the children too. There would be multiple famly members that they would consider mom and/or dad that they could turn to for help.

I can see no reason why someone should try and stop it. If it is between consenting adults.


(as a side note this does happen in the US, only difference is the man or women is officially only married to one person while the others are unofficially wedded together)

[hermy_weasley2]

I'm not here to attack and teach the women how to live, I'm just expressing my opinion and I'm sure you are too. Usually these towns are 'distanced' from the rest of the world, and with the women not getting a full education, many can't do much about it even if they don't like it, though some have managed to run away.

I'm not saying you're attacking anyone. Like I said, people can be in bad situations in any marriage. A person can be without a full education in any bad marriage and not know how to get out of it. So, the problem really isn't polygamy, it's marriages that people don't want to be a part of and can't get out of.





Sorry...don't really understand what you mean by that.

You wouldn't if you weren't from here. It's a joke going around in the Georgia (the state---should the "s" be capitalized) that everyone in Alambama is ignorant, inbred, etc. It's just a joke though and not true, and people in Alabama probably have jokes about us too.

The reason it's happening there though with the handicapped babies is because the relationships are WAY too close.

The close relationships are nessicarily caused by polygamy. Someone can have multiple spouses and not be related to any of them at all or someone could marry a cousin and only have one spouse. These problems aren't caused by polygamy itself, they're just more common with polygamy (or Alabama as the case may be--joke again to anyone from Alabama).


It isn't as common, but it's still exists. I just thought it was an interesting topic to bring up...

What I meant was I thought it was just as common in the U.S. and Canada as it was in the rest of the developed world. Does it exist in other First World or developed countries?

[Sherlock Holmes]

How about we not make fun of Alabama...

There is a good article here (http://www.meridianmagazine.com/publicforum/020830polygamy.html), by a Mormon, discussing polygamy. In summary, the author says that polygamy in "old times" was generally good for the family and for the women and children involved. In most cases, men were allowed to marry multiple wives only if they could support her. And in a farming lifestyle, the more children there were, the better the farm could operate. Additionally, multiple wives meant that any one wife didn't have to bear so many children.

That was back then. Now, it seems that a polygamous relationship often, though not necessarily, tends to be a) exploitative of the women and/or children involved, and b) often ends up needing help from the state because the family is too large to provide for itself. That would mean, I think, that the state would have an interest in promoting monogamous marriage.

In theory---outside of religious reasons---polygamous marriage may be all right. But in practice, just from reviewing a quick Google search, it seems that polygamous marriage creates many more problems than monogamous marriage.

[Wab]

How about we not make fun of Alabama....

If you can't make fun of Alabama who can you make fun of.

[IcyIcicles]

So, the problem really isn't polygamy, it's marriages that people don't want to be a part of and can't get out of.

These problems aren't caused by polygamy itself, they're just more common with polygamy



In response to that, I still belief that polygamy can be a problem which starts off more problems. I don't have time to comment on everything, but for those who question what I have stated, I base it on sources like this. http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy65.html It's awfully long, so read it if you're interested...

[Kaonashi]

I've heard that a lot of those polygamous familes have been arrested for welfare fraud. I've also heard that women as old as 14 have been forced into these sorts of arrangements. Personally I owuldn't do it...there's just some things you shouldn't share, but if others want to be in that sort of relationship and are all hunky-dory about it then that's their business.

[SilverStar]

In my opinion (and religion) it's wrong all the way around. No exceptions.

[Weatherby]

I think it is wrong because I can't imagine it would be healthy for a relationship or family.
People may be used to the idea so they think they accept it but who would really choose to be one of someone's three wives?

[siriusgurl]

Well I see it as it as it doesn't really make much sense with most peoples reason to marry. I do think you should have the right if you or your religion/culture believes in it. My friends father had more about 3 wives until he moved to Canada now all the children stay with him but he only kept one wife.But there are lots of serious problems that come with it I'm not positive about in industialised countrie ,though I think it would be some what self righteous to assume it does not happen, there's problems with competicien with wifes, being forced into it, and marrying too yough, and unequility. I guess when you get down to it the only thing I really have against it is like in the case of some arranged marriages being FORCED into it. But me personally I would never go for it.

[DrummerboyDT]

I think marriage is meant for a couple. If you had 14 wives and 200 kids, it would be hard to pay attention to any of them.

[catken7924]

Interesting topic, something I have thought alot about myself. Here are my views:

1) Is it "morally wrong" to practice polygamy? If yes, why?
My personal opinion is it is not morally wrong. I personally would not want to be a part of it as I am a bit jealous and want my wonderful husband all to myself, but if other people are happy and all parties are in agreement, then I don't have a problem with it.

2) If the people involved in this practice are happy and are doing it at their own will (man and women), should they be stopped?
Like I said above, I don't think so. Personally, I think government should stay out of marriage. Say a man wants to marry two women, and both women want to marry the same man and they can come to a mutal agreement that suits all of them. Why should they be stopped if all parties are content?

3) Should the government enforce harder on these acts and proclaim it to be illegal even if it is considered to be a religions practice?
Not at all, especailly if it is a religious issue. Religion is a personal thing to me, something you share with your family members, your clergy man, your place of worship. Government has no say in that and what you belive in. The only time I feel government should get involved in religion is when people are being harmed physically or mentally.

4) How does this compare with other issues like same sex marriage?
Basically, I have a fairly liberal view on marriage. If two (or three!) people are in love and want to cement their love by pledging before a clergy member or judge and their family and friends to love, cherish, etc. for the rest of their days, then go right ahead. It doesn't bother me if it's between a man and a woman, two men, two women, couples of different races or relgion. To me, the most important thing about marriage is being happy with one another.

[Mireille]

If you can't make fun of Alabama who can you make fun of.

What Sherlock ment was don't bring it into the conversation if it does not belong here. It's not very nice to make fun of a state because of something knowing that there are members from the state that is getting teased. Please abstain from making jokes about it. Thanks.

As for the act of multiple marriages, in the culture that many people live in it is unacceptable because we are taught that is it. For many African cultures, more then one wife is a good thing. For the women they see someone to shair the work with. For us, we see someone to compete with and feel that the husband does not love the one woman anymore.

For me, I have a hard time with multiple marriages, but that's because of the culture I've grown up in.

[star22]

I really do not like the idea. It ends up hurting women more. Men are the ones who generally have more than one spouse.

) Is it "morally wrong" to practice polygamy? If yes, why?
Yes, definately. Especially when it does not go both ways. In most places where it is legal, it is only legal for men to have more than one wife. A major double standard. It encourages people to find younger, more attractive spouses when their current one loses his/her looks. It basically encourages unfaithfulness.

2) If the people involved in this practice are happy and are doing it at their own will (man and women), should they be stopped?
It depends on if everyone involved is happy. Are the people who are the multiple spouses truly happy? Somehow, I doubt it. They probably just think that they have no choice. Especially in societies where women do not have equal rights.

3) Should the government enforce harder on these acts and proclaim it to be illegal even if it is considered to be a religions practice?
Yes, it should be illigal. Some things are definately wrong, regardless of weither people do them or not.

4) How does this compare with other issues like same sex marriage?
It is a totally different issue. Same sex marriages, though I still believe they are wrong, involve two equal people. Polygamy involves more than one and generally the people are not considered equal.

[dobby_rocks]

1) Is it "morally wrong" to practice polygamy? If yes, why?

Id say yes, but that only in my religion, then again if you look in the old testament men would end up having several wives, they had the main wife that they loved but they wanted to have a lot of offspring. Take for example

Jacob (Israel) married Leah , then Rachel - Leah gives him 4 sons, then she doesn’t get pregnant so she gives him her maid servant to marry sleep with, he has 2 or 3 kids with her. Rachel doesn’t get pregnant so gives her maid servant as wife she has 2 kids, then Rachel finale ends up having 2 or something along those lines

Abraham who was given his wife’s maidservant as a wife cause they didn’t have any children b.t the 2 of them

2) If the people involved in this practice are happy and are doing it at their own will (man and women), should they be stopped?

No , i mean that just how some people live , its right to them and having only one wife is like :no: , to them. If they can afford their many wife’s and many children , but if they cant :grumble: there is no law here in the states like Chain or Japan that limits how many kids a person can have.

I read an article about if one brother marries, his brothers are then technically also married to the wife as well so shed could have 3 husbands, if her husband had a 10 year old brother he would technically be her husband too. The oldest brother would have dips on things and any children would call him father even though their uncle could actually be their biological father

3) Should the government enforce harder on these acts and proclaim it to be illegal even if it is considered to be a religions practice?

I don’t know then you get into freedom of Religion, i know Mormons aren’t suppose to practice but i know some still do, i saw a show on opera about a man he had 2 wife’s and like 15 kids b.t the 2 wife’s. It might be more laxed cause then again its comes back to Freedom of Religion. Then again sometimes they might have young wives 16 , 17 years old etc and play them off as their daughters to all but those in the house

[Weatherby]

I think it's an unhealthy relationship no matter what culture you're brought up in. Setting up someone whose supposed to be your partner to compete with others isn't kind.
The film Raise the Red Lantern provided a very good perspective on this situation. The husband would light red lanterns outside the door of the wife he wanted for the night. The servants would take care of whomever was the favourite. I realise not every homelife with more than one wife matches that exactly but I imagine the feelings are the same.

It may be human nature to be with different women so your seed is spread. But.. people have to change their rules with the times. It's no longer viable to have sex with as many people as you want because of disease. Human nature just hasn't caught up yet.

[Crystal]

I guess it is a religious thing now more than a status thing. In ainciant times in some cultures the more wives a man had (especially if he was king) showed his high status, in the case of many royals it was the best way of cementing your claim to the throne by marrying all the daughters of the previous encumbant.
Polygamy is rather a relic from the days when women were property not people (I know some men treat women like that now) and should, therefore, be considered incompatable with modern thinking.
Here in England Bigamy is a crime which carries a very heavy fine, and even a prison scentance.
There is however the problem that the christian bible (the old testement at least) condones bigamy, and even incest, it wasn't until Leviticus (sp?) that sexual guidelines were really laid down.
Since I believe nothing at all in the bible that isn't honest common sense I really couldn't care less if someone wants to have several wives, as long as my taxes arn't paying for him!

[gred&forge4ever]

1) Is it "morally wrong" to practice polygamy? If yes, why?

In my moral and relgious code as a Catholic yes it is. However, in my home state of Massachusetts, I feel that it should be recognized as a civil marriage. Why?- if the state allows same-marriage for homosexuals,then it should also allow more than one spouse for bisexuals. According to our state courts, "Marraige is an evolving parigdim"

2) If the people involved in this practice are happy and are doing it at their own will (man and women), should they be stopped?

In my state, nope

3) Should the government enforce harder on these acts and proclaim it to be illegal even if it is considered to be a religions practice?

It is already proclaimed illegal.

4) How does this compare with other issues like same sex marriage?

See above. :). Note- in the Islam faith, polymagy was designed as a social welfare system to care for widowed women and orphaned kids. Mohammad's first wife was the widow of his uncle and was significantly older than him. In the early Islamic faith, polygamy was not for sexual purposedsonly.
***Questions are directed towards polygamy as a whole generally, not just the cases given above.

Just my opinion. :)

[Shauna]

I'm not one to judge what is morally right and what is morally wrong. That is definitely not my job. However, I do think that having polygamy as an accepted practice is not the best institution for a country to base itself on. Therefore, simply as a matter of knowing where to draw the line as a country, I think that the US should crack down on people who practice this.

Shauna

[RELASHIO Rachel]

1) Is it "morally wrong" to practice polygamy? If yes, why?

I respect religious views on all accounts, and you stated that "sometimes it is done religiously and the man has a greater chance of being God." I do not practice any form of religion, but I DO think this is wrong. Especially if the women have NO say in it WHATSOEVER. It's extremely degrading, and I can respect how they believe/think.. but it's very "piggish" of the men (or maybe even women); and sad for all the children.

2) If the people involved in this practice are happy and are doing it at their own will (man and women), should they be stopped?

Hmm, that's a toughie. I 100% SUPPORT Gay Marriages, but I guess if the woman and the man are very supportive of it, yes. As long as it's not forced or blackmailed or anything.. It's their choice.

3) Should the government enforce harder on these acts and proclaim it to be illegal even if it is considered to be a religions practice?

I'm extremely torn on this. People, as we have all witnessed, are very good liars. It could be just for the pure pleasure of one of the spouses. Honestly, I do think that the government shouldn't have a say in what people DO in their personal life; just so long as the people themself are not A.) Harming others in ANY way and B.) Harming themselves in any way. I guess this might raise the risk of STD/HIV's.. So I'm giving the awful answer: undecided.

4) How does this compare with other issues like same sex marriage?

It doesn't compare at all. Homosexual marriages SHOULD be made legal. I think it's terribley awful what our government is doing right now. The only reason Bush disproves it is because of his religion. Wake up call: Is the POPULATION your religion?? All of us?? Nope. Another note is that a lot of my friends are Christian/Catholic and THEY approve it. My friends church HAS a gay pastor, and even my Morman friend, Suzanne is 100% for it. Not all religious people are as closed minded as him. What does our constitution say Pres. Bush? All men equal?? Does that include the gay community?? I guess not, eh?

[Wab]

While I hestitate from calling it wrong (which is pretty subjective) I can't see it as being a fair basis for a relationship.

Regardless of best intentions there will be a favoured partner.

[Draugr]

I think it is illegal for a reason, I think it would foster jealous among the wifes/husbands, it would lead to crime, and really guys have enough time handling one woman, how are they going to handle more? Same with women and husbands.

All it would do is complicate things and remove a lot of love.

[Romy]

How very very degrading. I hate even the thougt of it. I can´t imagine why any woman would want to be treated like one among many by her husband. And it raises the question why it can´t be the other way around. It´s even worse if they are forced to do it in some way. I repeat: extraordinarily degrading. I´m glad I haven´t heard of a similar case in Germany. This could be because according to my knowledge we don´t have Mormons here. Interesting how that little fact can make me dislike that religion already. It´s just one thing that clashes with my personal values in a most extreme way.

I don´t have any problem with marriages between the same sex, though. As long as it´s just two in the marriage. :p

[crookshanksmom]

1) Is it "morally wrong" to practice polygamy? If yes, why?
I don't really think so. I think it is possible to love more than one person at the same time. It never happened to me, but it has to other people, and why should they have to suffer?

2) If the people involved in this practice are happy and are doing it at their own will (man and women), should they be stopped?
If everyone enters into it happily, then it should be allowed. I think if all parties involved in a plaural marrage agree to it, then it should be allowed. Why tell someone you can't marry the person you love just because you love more than one person?

3) Should the government enforce harder on these acts and proclaim it to be illegal even if it is considered to be a religions practice?
No. Government should keep their noses out of marriages. Look at gay marriages-they have no right to tell someone how to live their life. Aren't we entitled to life, liberty, and the prusuit of happiness?

4) How does this compare with other issues like same sex marriage?
I think if all parties are adults, and they all agree to a marriage, they should be allowed to do it, regardless of sex or ammount of people.

Who are you to say it's bad? Why does it send a poor message to the next generation? I was under the impression that hate was what sent bad messages to children. Does love, even if that love is different from the ideal, also show bad things? If so, how?

[HollywoodBob]

1) Is it "morally wrong" to practice polygamy? If yes, why?
No, it's not morally wrong, each person has their own morality, so if they're able to practice it, then it must not be against their morals.

2) If the people involved in this practice are happy and are doing it at their own will (man and women), should they be stopped?
Absolutely not, if no one is being forced into anything, then it's no one's right to prevent them from being happy.

3) Should the government enforce harder on these acts and proclaim it to be illegal even if it is considered to be a religions practice?
The only thing a government should do is only allow for one spouse to be claimed on the tax forms. Otherwise it wouldn't be fair to single spouse couples to have polygamous couples claiming numerous spouses.

4) How does this compare with other issues like same sex marriage?
It doesn't. Same sex marriages are similar to interracial marriages, since the complaints with it are based on bigotry.

-HollywoodBob

[GryffindorSeeker]

There used to be some cases where it was necessary. Back a couple hundred years ago, women couldn't own land without a man present, at least not in America. If they had children, and the husband had died, they were almost helpless. In some cases, women could work, but in others, they weren't allowed to. If a man married them, they could own land, and have some money to take care of their children with. Hopefully, there wouldn't be competition between the wives.

Of course, here and now, that's hardly the case. There isn't a point for it, woman can take care of themselves.

[Bouncing_Ferret]

1) Is it "morally wrong" to practice polygamy? If yes, why?
Yes, I think it is, just because it goes against the whole idea of marriage's symbolism of two peoples' love for one another. It's just something that's ingrained in my mind as correct, so polygamous marriage seems completely wrong. I think it's fine for people to have as many relationships with as many people as they want, but not at the same time! Plus, it degrades the status of women in a marriage with the idea that only one man is needed to fill the man's role in marriage, while many women are needed to fill the woman's role, suggesting that women aren't equal to men.

2) If the people involved in this practice are happy and are doing it at their own will (man and women), should they be stopped?
Well... if it goes directly against the laws of society, then for what reason should these people be exempt? If somebody regularly uses illegal drugs and is happy, then should they be exempt from the laws? However, if it doesn't infringe any laws, then I suppose, live and let live.

3) Should the government enforce harder on these acts and proclaim it to be illegal even if it is considered to be a religions practice?
Because the practice goes against the notion of gender equality, then I think that laws should be enforced against polygamy, as equality in society is, to me, more important than the continuation of religious traditions.

4) How does this compare with other issues like same sex marriage?
Same sex marriage doesn't challenge the equality of the sexes, while polygamy does. Same sex marriage also follows more closely to the traditional ideal of marriage as the joining of two people for life. So it seems impossible to compare polygamy with same sex marriage.

[Pegasus]

First, although I've heard from an Iranian that it's kind of dying off, the best examples of modern-day plural marriages are in the Middle East. Plural wives are most connected with royalty, however, if I remember correctly. Ever seen The King and I? That may not be technically in the Middle East (I'm a little dim on my geography), but it's an example on the media.
This could be because according to my knowledge we don´t have Mormons here.
Ha! The LDS Church (or Mormons) is a worldwide church, and I promise you, you have a Mormon population in Germany. You don't know about it because they don't have horns on their head or anything else outstanding about them; they're ordinary people like you who practice a certain religion. In fact, there are currently two LDS temples in Germany; I assure you, the Church would not spend the time or expense to build these temples if there were no one to use them. Click here (http://www.mormon.org) for the Basic Beliefs page--the Church's official stance on polygamy, as well as many other issues of interest, is there. By the way, thanks for choosing not to like my religion based on unfounded rumors.
Two other items: Polygamy is seen all over the Bible. I believe this was mentioned in short, but it doesn't stop at Leviticus. I don't have the Bible with me right now, so I can't give you actual scripture references. Suffice it to say that David an Solomon were both commanded to practice polygamy.
Second, any "Mormon" practicing polygamy today is not a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. The LDS Church renounced polygamy over 100 years ago, and any members who do practice it are excommunicated. Some clans have broken away from the Church at different times and started their own church, but they are not part of the LDS Church. For more official info on that, please refer to the link in this post.

[Wab]

You don't know about it because they don't have horns on their head or anything else outstanding about them; they're ordinary people like you who practice a certain religion.

Hard not to know about it here. Hardly a month goes by without LDS or Jehovah's Witnesses popping up on the doorstep proselytising.

[gred&forge4ever]

I think that the issue of same-sex versus polygamy does compare. The courts here in Massachusetts used the logic that "marriage is an evolving paridigm" to justify allowing same-sex marraige. That same logic can be applied to polygamy.

How does this compare with other issues like same sex marriage?
"It doesn't. Same sex marriages are similar to interracial marriages, since the complaints with it are based on bigotry."

I would disagree with this quote. Being against polygamy can also be sais to be based on bigotry. People tend to view those involved in a plural marraige as religious zealots or being debased, that is certainly a bigotted view. One could also argue that one reason people are against same-sex marraige is that the children will most likely not know the opposite sex parent(as artitfical means are used for impregnation), and that kids are better off being raised with positive role models of both sexes. In both
bi-racial and plural marraiges kids are exposed to role models of both sexes.

[HarryPotter]

1) Is it "morally wrong" to practice polygamy? If yes, why?
It depends of each person, the culture and religion... I wouldn't do it anyway, not because I consider it morally wrong, but because it doesn't fit with the way I am

2) If the people involved in this practice are happy and are doing it at their own will (man and women), should they be stopped?
No, if all and each one of the persons involved on it agree, and they do it by their own will, I think they shouldn't be stopped, since they harm nobody

3) Should the government enforce harder on these acts and proclaim it to be illegal even if it is considered to be a religions practice?
No, it should be illegal if any of the persons is forced to do it against their will

4) How does this compare with other issues like same sex marriage?
I think it only compares in the fact of being a controversial subject...

[crookshanksmom]

I think that the issue of same-sex versus polygamy does compare. The courts here in Massachusetts used the logic that "marriage is an evolving paridigm" to justify allowing same-sex marraige. That same logic can be applied to polygamy.

How does this compare with other issues like same sex marriage?
"It doesn't. Same sex marriages are similar to interracial marriages, since the complaints with it are based on bigotry."

I would disagree with this quote. Being against polygamy can also be sais to be based on bigotry. People tend to view those involved in a plural marraige as religious zealots or being debased, that is certainly a bigotted view. One could also argue that one reason people are against same-sex marraige is that the children will most likely not know the opposite sex parent(as artitfical means are used for impregnation), and that kids are better off being raised with positive role models of both sexes. In both
bi-racial and plural marraiges kids are exposed to role models of both sexes.

It is untrue that children from a same-sex marriage won't be exposed to positive roll models of both sexes. They will have aunts and uncles, friends, grandparents and so forth. Just because a heterosexual couple has a child doesn't mean the child will get positive roll models in both sexes. A parent could desert the child, or simply be a poor parent.

[ponabelle]

I think unorthodox marriages such as same sex marriage or polygamy are all about choices(in the case where the involved parties are willing and not forced into it of course). Though I myself disapprove of such unions but who am I to judge these people?

In certain cultures, there used to be a 'valid' reason why certain practices are allowed. For example, in Islam, polygamy arose during the warring periods. It's allowed in the case where a man had sufficient means to take in another woman so as to support her(up to four wives-correct me if i'm wrong, i don't really know loads about Islam). In most cases the women were orphans or widows whose husbands had perished and thus could not support themselves as well as their children. The original purpose of polygamy here was to protect the women during the warring periods(the men may or may not consummate the marriage with subsequent wives). Well in modern times these concepts got tweaked and basically people exploit their religious teachings.

If you ask me, people who practice polygamy are generally selfish and disrespectful(not to mention greedy). Like what's mentioned in previous posts, it's degrading for the spouses. Then again, there's arguments for spiritual seeking yadda yadda. How can you be enlightened through having more spouses? That's just an excuse for committing 'legalized' adultery. I've read somewhere that one guy said that by having more wives he could curb his desires to visit brothels and thus he'd never cheat on his wives. What bull. Does that mean if you're in an exclusive marriage like most people, you're allowed to cheat cos having ONLY one wife just doesn't satisfy you? Talk about love, commitment and conscience.

Most wives who claim they're happy with polygamy say so because they've not seen the outside world, bless them(this is also why lots of naive young girls often get cheated into getting married with men who practice polygamy-using religion as a shield)

With regard to gay marriages, I'm not homophobic or anything and I respect their rights as well as decisions; but I just want to say, God invented Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.

[SilverStar]

I disapprove of this. I know if it were me, and my husband married another woman, I would be really upset. That's why there is a scandal on cheating now (it's on the cover of Time or Newsweek this week). I don't see how you can possibly live with multiple spouses, but that's just my humble opinion.

[GSCY]

Point of fact: Polygamy is not legal ANYWHERE in the US. No, not even in Utah. Yes, there are small towns that are full of polygamist and the local authorities often look the other way, it is still illegal.

To properly discuss this one must seperate from the idea of polygamy and the practice. The idea falls under the to each their own philosophy. I, personally, do not think it is beneficial but I could see how some personalities could work better in this environment.

The practice is another matter entirely. For more info read the book UNDER THE BANNER OF HEAVEN, about extremist in the Mormon religion, many of these adhere to the old Mormon belief of polygamy. It discusses in detail what life is like in these insular small towns, where everything is controlled by one figurehead, it is he that gives the wives, he taht grants the divorces, and these set ups do not fall in the line of man meets woman fall in love and while out at the supermarket meets anotehr woman and falls in love. Rather these plural marriages are more like man has wife, another man is shunned for some crime against the faith or the community, Man A gets his wife and his children and then marries one of his step daughters. Incidents of rape and child rape at that are frequent in relationships )one harrowing story of a girl being dragged out of her school classroom, she was about 14, and forced to marry her fathers brother) and once again these are the only places where such things are practiced at least in north America. Several women have made very courageous choices to escape these communities and they are constantly lobbying the local government to enforce the laws and put a stop to this practice. SO while the idea, can be defended the modren practice deserves nothing but condmenation.

[roz]

Personally I would not choose to participate in a polygamous marriage. However, just like same sex marriage, I do not feel that I have the right to dictate to other people how they choose to live their lives.

The use of the word choose in that sentance is very important though. No one should be forced to live in a situation like that. If both partners choose to invite a third person into their marriage and any children that there are are OK with it then I don't think that the state has a right to say that they can't.

As a Christian I would not choose to participate in such a lifestyle but I do not live in a state where the rules are determined by religon. The state allows many other actions that would be frowned on by my religon. Sex before marriage and same sex relationships for example. I do not feel that it should be able to pick and choose what actions to allow as long as all participants are agreed to the action and no one is harmed by it.

Roz.

[Pegasus]

For more info read the book UNDER THE BANNER OF HEAVEN, about extremist in the Mormon religion, many of these adhere to the old Mormon belief of polygamy.
I've said this before, but now that it's been brought up again, I'm going to reiterate: Extremists in the "Mormon" religion are excommunicated from the "Mormon" religion. Those who practice it, or even agree with it, are excommunicated, which is the most severe discipline in the LDS Church--it strips you of your membership. The polygamous groups are self-made and have no affiliation with the LDS Church. It's like a Catholic disagreeing with the pope, starting his own church, and gaining followers--those people are no longer Catholic, nor do they represent what Catholics believe.
I have not read Under the Banner of Heaven, so I can't make a judgment call on it. I lived in St. George, Utah for a while, where the people from Colorado City, Arizona do their shopping. It's very sad to see these people. They're married off very young to someone who they have been "assigned" to, and escaping is very dangerous. The children are taught that outsiders are of the devil and should be feared, so the children I saw at WalMart or the emergency room were terrified of me and my children when we tried to be friendly. They're very easy to pick out--the women aren't allowed to cut their hair, must have it braided at all times, and must wear the style of dresses worn 150 years ago--covering up to necks, down to ankles and wrists--in a desert climate that spends 6 months out of the year in 90-degree-plus weather. The boys are pulled out of school at a young age to do slave labor--building houses and such--and don't get any education beyond that. There are women who have escaped who are trying to make a difference. Time will tell if it does any good. Already the state government is beginning to crack down on issues such as child support, welfare, incest (marrying nieces, etc.), and having sex with minors (can't think of the correct term right now).
Now, let's take it out of these clans: Polygamy is not unheard of in many religions and cultures outside of the West. They're a completely different study altogether. These I only know of from a textbook in a course during my Family Science studies, and it's been years. I'm talking about Africa, parts of Asia, etc.

[free_girl]

1) Is it "morally wrong" to practice polygamy? If yes, why? Yes, because I think you should only dedicate your time and love to one person.

2) If the people involved in this practice are happy and are doing it at their own will (man and women), should they be stopped? I would guess not, because they both choose to do it not just one.

3) Should the government enforce harder on these acts and proclaim it to be illegal even if it is considered to be a religions practice? No I don't think the goverment should be involved with other people's problems unless those people go to the police and ask for help.

4) How does this compare with other issues like same sex marriage? It is different in that it is allowed everywhere in the states and same sex marriges are only allowed in Massachusetts. Like I said before though, I don't think the goverment should be telling people what is right in marriage or what gender they have to marry.

[roz]

I am just as frustrated as Pegasus by the focus here on the "LDS" form of polygamy but unfortunatly I know very little about any other form of the practice.

What little I do know is the form accepted by Islam. If there are any Muslims reading this and I have got my facts wrong please correct me. I am only paraphrasing what I learnt from Muslim friends at Uni (over a decade ago). I do not know how mainstream thier beliefs were.

According to my understanding a Muslim man may have up to three wives, as long as the law of the land in which he is living allows it. He may only marry the second wife with the permission of the first. As the seinor wife the first wife will have a higher status than later wives. He may only have more than one wife if he has the wherewithal to support both (or all three) of his wives. This means that having more than one wife is a status symbol because it means that you can support them and any children that they might have.

I know that this practice is not legal in all of the states that we think of as Muslim countries. I don't know where it is legal though. I just remember the shock I got when one of my friends (who was from somewhere in sub-saharran Africa) kept referring to his father's other wives.

Is there anyone out there who knows about polygamy in any other cultures?

Roz.

[jigglypuff]

I just wanted to thank Pegasus for clearing some things up.

LDS people do not practice polygamy. Anyone who practices polygamy and says that they are mormon are mistaken, because the LDS church doesn't recognize them as members. Those people are in no way affiliated with the LDS church or it's beliefs.

[ArtemisiaDax]

I've just finished a book called "The Bookseller of Kabul," about a middle-class man and his family. He practices polygamy (just to clarify, polygamy is man marrying multiple women, polyandry is woman marrying multiple men - that's really rare) as do many of his neighbors. According to Islam, you can take up to four wives, but only if you have the means to support all of them. His second wife was only fourteen when married to him, and had no say in the matter (women never get a say in who they marry and are supposed to be unwilling to leave their families, as it shows modesty - this is a direct excerpt from the book). His first wife is exceptionally unhappy and feels neglected, but has no choice except to do whatever her husband says. So I know that polygamy is legal in Afghanistan, and I believe it's legal in Saudi Arabia and other countries in that region. I think that it would be legal in countries that follow sharia.
I have also read "Under the Banner of Heaven," another excellent book showing why polygamy doesn't work.


1) Is it "morally wrong" to practice polygamy? If yes, why?
Yes. Anywhere where polygamy is put into practice, whether it's the Middle East or Utah, the same problems result: the man has the say over the household and takes wives without the consent of other wives, many of the wives are often underage and/or related to one another, and the wives tend to fight. It's not respectful to women and leads to abusive and denigrating situations.

2) If the people involved in this practice are happy and are doing it at their own will (man and women), should they be stopped?
See Ponabelle's comment:
Most wives who claim they're happy with polygamy say so because they've not seen the outside world, bless them(this is also why lots of naive young girls often get cheated into getting married with men who practice polygamy-using religion as a shield). I'll add this: Under the Banner of Heaven demonstrates that women can often be brainwashed by their church or families into accepting it.


3) Should the government enforce harder on these acts and proclaim it to be illegal even if it is considered to be a religions practice?
It's illegal in virtually all First World countries, and that's the way it should stay.

4) How does this compare with other issues like same sex marriage?
It really doesn't compare to same-sex marriage. They don't arise under similar circumstances, and same sex marriage never uses religion to justify itself.

[iluvhhr]

1) Is it "morally wrong" to practice polygamy? If yes, why?
Yes, it is morally wrong. I remember seeing a show where there was polygamy, and a few wives were favored over the others. The lesser wives weren't treated nicely and were used only for children.

2) If the people involved in this practice are happy and are doing it at their own will (man and women), should they be stopped?
Even though I personally do not agree with polygamy, if they're truly happy... I don't really know.

3) Should the government enforce harder on these acts and proclaim it to be illegal even if it is considered to be a religions practice?
Yes, I think so. I wonder if there is a constitutional amendment banning it...

4) How does this compare with other issues like same sex marriage?
It doesn't really compare. I suppose the level of controversy does, though.

[tonks442]

women never get a say in who they marry and are supposed to be unwilling to leave their families, as it shows modesty - this is a direct excerpt from the book

Actually, this is untrue in Islam. A woman has a right to divorce. She also does not have to marry the man, forcing a woman to marry someone is prohibited in Islam.

Just wanted to clarify that.

Otherwise, I don't agree with polygamy, just because, as said in previous posts, I just don't think it works. Although I am Muslim, and it is allowed in Islam, I just think that the times are different now from when Islam first came, and so with time we should modernize. I think polygamy should not be prohibited, but rather discouraged.

[Amina]

If people enter into it voluntarily - and by that I mean completely of their own free will, not because they have been indoctrinated into a society that dictates it - then it is not for me to judge how they wish to live their life. However, it can be abusive and degrading to women if they are treated as 'baby factories'. Someone (I apologise, I forget who you were) who is a Mormon explained a while back on another thread that the polygamy in Mormanism originated when times were harder, and it was widows that the men took on a second wives, so they would be supported. However, as times have moved on, this is no longer really required, and so the main Mormon church has outlawed it.

I think the original reason is both sensible and understandable, but society has changed - it is not necessary anymore, unless, of course, the widow would choose to do so, and perhaps the reasons for polygamy now are very different.

I personally would not want to enter such a relationship, but if you could prove to me that under-age girls were not being coered into such activity, and that things were bieng undertaken at people's free will, then it is not my place to condemn it.

[ArtemisiaDax]

Actually, this is untrue in Islam. A woman has a right to divorce. She also does not have to marry the man, forcing a woman to marry someone is prohibited in Islam.

Just wanted to clarify that.

Otherwise, I don't agree with polygamy, just because, as said in previous posts, I just don't think it works. Although I am Muslim, and it is allowed in Islam, I just think that the times are different now from when Islam first came, and so with time we should modernize. I think polygamy should not be prohibited, but rather discouraged.


Yes, women are technically allowed to divorce, and they also technically can't be forced into marriage. From what I've read, in practice in countries like Afghanistan, things don't work that way. Women don't divorce because their families wouldn't take them back. Also, divorce is harder for a woman; a woman has to have grounds for a divorce, whereas a man can just say "I divorce you" three times. Also, from the same books I've read, the women have no say in who they marry - they have to accept their family's choice.Most of this isn't in accord with the Quran (men are supposed to treat divorced wives well, and men and women are supposed to be equal) but it's practiced anyway.
http://www.mwlusa.org/publications/positionpapers/divorce.html
http://www.submission.org/women/

[Romy]

Wow, I had completely forgotten about this thread and don´t think I´ve looked at it since I posted. I just reread my post and still agree with it except that I wanted to apologize to Pegasus for making assumptions. I guess I was a bit harsh. :whistle:

[nerdypants]

1) Is it "morally wrong" to practice polygamy? If yes, why?
I think it is degrading to women, but so are lots of other things Americans do. I see no real reason why polygamy should be illegal. I wouldn't marry a man with more than one wife, but that doesn't mean I think everyone should be that way.

2) If the people involved in this practice are happy and are doing it at their own will (man and women), should they be stopped?
I don't think so. As long as the people involed are consenting adults, I see no reason why they shouldn't do it.

3) Should the government enforce harder on these acts and proclaim it to be illegal even if it is considered to be a religions practice?
No. I don't think the government should have anything to do with religion, unless that religion is directly harmful to someone.

4) How does this compare with other issues like same sex marriage?
It doesn't compare to same sex marriage at all. Same sex marriage is between two people, and polygamy is between one man and several women.

I think the question people need to ask here is, "Is it hurting anyone?" Does polygamy cause harm to anyone? Does it really degrade marriage? If we want to protect the sanctity of marriage, shouldn't we also get rid of divorce?

"Questioning a wise man is the beginning of wisdom."

[ArtemisiaDax]

1) Is it "morally wrong" to practice polygamy? If yes, why?
I think it is degrading to women, but so are lots of other things Americans do.

That's a horrible reason! It's degrading to women...but we do a lot of stuff that's degrading to women...so one more thing that's degrading to women is all right?

[Wandering Bard]

Just because you think that it's degrading, does not mean that other women find it degrading. If they choose to do it, then why should we stop them?

(I'm not saying that forcing women into it is right, but if they choose to do it then I don't think we should stop them.)

[ArtemisiaDax]

In practice, polygamy is not chosen by the woman. In the cultures where it arises, women generally have no choice; they're pressured into it by their families, or they just don't see any way out.

[MoodyMania]

1) Is it "morally wrong" to practice polygamy? If yes, why?
I don't agree with it but I also don't think that it is morally wrong. I see that most people here seem to identify polygamy with 1 husband and many wives. Why does it have to be this way? why can't it be 1 wife and many husbands? Or many husbands and many wives?
2) If the people involved in this practice are happy and are doing it at their own will (man and women), should they be stopped?
I don't think so. As long as the parties enter into the marriage on their own accord then it should be no ones bussiness but theirs.
3) Should the government enforce harder on these acts and proclaim it to be illegal even if it is considered to be a religions practice?
If they, the government, decides to change the traditional definition of marriage to accomadate other forms of marriage then they should not. But at present they should treat it like they do anything else that is considered illegal. No harder and no easier just because some may claim it is their religious right to enter into one.
4) How does this compare with other issues like same sex marriage?
It is very similar as both are based on changing the traditional definition of marriage.

[Pegasus]

Wow, I had completely forgotten about this thread and don´t think I´ve looked at it since I posted. I just reread my post and still agree with it except that I wanted to apologize to Pegasus for making assumptions. I guess I was a bit harsh.
Actually, I just reread the post you're responding to, and it was a bit snarky. I was probably having a bad day. I'm sorry, too.

[iluvhhr]

Originally Posted by nerdypants
...but so are lots of other things Americans do.

Yikes, that sounds harsh.

[JupieSmurf]

I'm a muslim, and I would never be in a polygamous relationship. In Islam, a woman has the right to specify in her marriage contract whether or not her husband may marry another woman. So it can actually become a sin for a man to take another wife without his wife's permission because of the clause in their marriage contract.

I do know a woman who converted to Islam in 2002, and she was proposed to by a Lebanese man. The man already has a wife and some kids. My friend is actually going to be visiting him and his family in a few weeks to make a decision. She has no problem with it, as she is friends with the man's first wife. And if she is to marry him, she will be given her own house, and the husband is obligated by Islam to treat both wives equally in ALL respects. So this one particular woman (who was born and raised in America as a Catholic) has no problem with it.

The reasons of why polygamy is allowed in Islam have already been stated (war leading to widows and orphans; unability of first wife to reproduce; etc). I personally though wouldn't want to be in a polygamous relationship because I would become insanely jealous and wouldn't be able to sleep at night.

Someone stated in a post that in Islam, a woman can be forced to marry someone who she doesn't want to or hasn't even met yet. This is wrong. Its unIslamic to force a girl into marriage. As a matter of fact, when she says "yes" three times, if it's by force, even though she said "yes" her marriage is invalid and not recognized by God because she agreed by force. But unfortunately some people are ignorant of these laws, and that's why there are misconceptions about Islam and it's laws.

[halfbreedlover]

1.) Is it "morally wrong" to practice polygamy? If yes, why?

I don't know about morality.

In my gut, I feel polygamy is wrong. I just feel it and for once I can't rationalize. It's a feminism issue to me. I understand that it doesn't necessarily involve "one man, three million women", but I feel that it is degrading to marriage and to people. I would never want to get involved with more than one person. Relationships between two people are confusing enough, imagine having to make it work out with more than two?

No one should have to share someone they love. I don't see how love can be possible in such a relationship.

2) If the people involved in this practice are happy and are doing it at their own will (man and women), should they be stopped?

Define "free will".

3) Should the government enforce harder on these acts and proclaim it to be illegal even if it is considered to be a religions practice?

I don't know of any religions in the United States that still practice it. Not even the Muslims I know do it.

4) How does this compare with other issues like same sex marriage?

I think they are completely different things. Gay marriage is degrading to no one. True love is possible. In my opinion it's much more "acceptable" than polygamy. I guess, that means its more in line with my view of marriage, which is two parties involved who love each other.

[Firebolt2004]

1.) Is it "morally wrong" to practice polygamy? If yes, why?

I believe its morally wrong to practise polygamy. It is the same as having an extra-marital affair. I don't believe polygamy is recognised by the law in any state.

2) If the people involved in this practice are happy and are doing it at their own will (man and women), should they be stopped?
How can they be doing it at their own will? No woman I know wants to share her man with another woman. I understand there are certain groups of people where the girls are more or less brainwashed into believing this practise to be normal, but if these girls were allowed to think for themselves, they would not choose to be in a polygamous relationship.

3) Should the government enforce harder on these acts and proclaim it to be illegal even if it is considered to be a religions practice?

No religion in the world consider polygamy to be an integral part of that religions belief,its the way some people have interpreted the religion to suit their own purposes.

4) How does this compare with other issues like same sex marriage?
There is no comparison, unless its a polygamous same sex marriage, which again would be wrong.

[the_slynx]

1) Is it "morally wrong" to practice polygamy? If yes, why? Only if any of the participants are forced into the relationship. Otherwise, not at all. Though if I were ever to be in a 'plural' relationship, I'd prefer the love to be spread out equally--that'd require at least two bisexuals, soo... It's something I've considered experimenting with. (like I can even hold up a two-person relationship! ha.)

2) If the people involved in this practice are happy and are doing it at their own will (man and women), should they be stopped? No.

3) Should the government enforce harder on these acts and proclaim it to be illegal even if it is considered to be a religions practice? Ah, no. Honestly, I feel that the government should stop legislating marriage altogether. It's dipping too deep into the personal lives of the people. But so long as marriage is a problem of the state, I feel that polyamourous marriages ought to be legal.

4) How does this compare with other issues like same sex marriage? It's another issue that's constantly stalked by the slippery slope fallacy. ("But then people will marry dogs! And trees! And their children!")

[Musereader]

Okay this is really getting me really annoyed.

EVERYBODY read this article Winkipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygamy) and please understand that one man several wives IS NOT THE ONLY DEFINITION

K, for examples of plural marriages try reading something by Robert Heinlein - especially Friday which shows two different types of plural marriage.

1) Three wives, three husbands where sexual activity is limited to only between one of each of the sexes ie 3 bedrooms, men or women decide between themselves which partner they want and split them between them (It's quite hard to explain, I hope you are following) If anything one of the wives is the dominant one

2) 2 female 3 male who participate in all kinds of sexual activity - gay, straight and group

In both of those cases everybody in the groups were perfectly happy (at least for a while, one did go through a divorce but that was a difference in opinion about genetically modified beings, not to do with the state of the marrige collapsing)

There is also a nice example of plural marriage in one of Ursula Le Guins writings,(I forget which one) where each person is married to two other people - one of the same sex and one of the opposite - but you cannot be married to the same opposite-sex person as your same sex spouse, this ends up with a nice square marriage evenly balanced - two females married to each other, two males married to each other, with each of the females married to one each of the males

I feel that if a person wants to create or join a group marriage then that person should be able to.

Leagalising it - might be a good idea. I think rape is where a person is forced into sexual congress with out knowledge and/or consent and/or understanding. Much of the polygymy practiced by LDS splinter groups is rape on those grounds, it cannot be policed at the moment, bringing it into the realm of legality would allow the system to recognise when a person who is underage or unconsenting is getting married and would allow law to stop this practise, whereas now these men are getting married to the girls without going through the legal process so nobody who could do anything about it knows untill too late.

The kind of polygymy practised by some Morman splinter groups is morally wrong to me because it is often the result of force, but i do not see how it is wrong when however many parties involved are willingly entering into this kind of marriage.

I do see it the same a gay marriges (which BTW i fully support) because it is between consenting adults some of whom are gay and bi but I also see it as different at the same time because it is not so staightforward as one-to-one love with sex between two people, there can be many many types of plural marriages (some are described in Moon is a Harsh Mistress by R.A. Heinlein) including linear, circular, group, polyandrus, polygynus, tree and more all with thier own complicated rules on who may or may not sleep with each other, (eg. I may be in a plural marraige with 4 women and 4 men and perhaps I am only allowed to sleep with two of the men and 3 of the women). All things considered this makes it very difficult to legislate for so Leagalising it is not for now (i know i am contradicting my self here but the above about the splinter Mormans was just one reason for leagalising it right now for the purposes of policing it, at the very least there should be something done about that kind of lifestyle to protect the young girls)

About incest, one thing you have to realise is that the child of two siblings is not nessacerrily going to have genetic defects - it is continual inbreeding down a family tree between two blood related peoples up to 3rd or 4th cousin that does this (look at the problems with certain european noble families through history) there is a portion in Time Enough for Love by R.A. Heinlein that deals with that theme.

PS. am I the only one who finds it wierd that the Gay thread is AD-17 and this one is M-13?

PPS. Sorry for recommending so much Heinlein but he is the most popular of the sci-fi authors to have delt with this subject in detail, sometimes they can be a little offensive though, so not a writer for younger readers.

[ArtemisiaDax]

About incest, one thing you have to realise is that the child of two siblings is not nessacerrily going to have genetic defects - it is continual inbreeding down a family tree between two blood related peoples up to 3rd or 4th cousin that does this (look at the problems with certain european noble families through history) there is a portion in Time Enough for Love by R.A. Heinlein that deals with that theme.


The child of two siblings is going to have an increased risk for birth defects (primarily because if both siblings have rare traits which are hidden by the presence of a dominant gene inherited from one parent, if they breed with each other, the trait is MUCH more likely to be displayed (about 25%). Every human is thought to harbor a number of lethal recessive traits, but the odds of randomly mating with someone else in the general population who carries the same lethal recessive trait is quite small.

Of course, if you interbreed for generations (look at the royal families of Europe - the Habsburg jaw being an example of a heritable trait amplified by intermarriage of close relations is a good one) the chances of the trait being expressed shoot up exponentially. But there are still good biological reasons to not allow two siblings to mate - the children are far more likely to end up with bad traits than they would be if they randomly mated within the population. (Note also that this does not apply to single matings of first cousins with first cousins - first cousins marrying have no significantly greater risk of genetic defects than two randomly mating people do.)

To try to get this somewhat back on topic, I think that the reason people discuss polygamous marriages instead of group or polyandrous marriages on this thread is because polygamy is what tends to be practiced more often (Utah, Middle Eastern states, etc.) and it's what's more familiar.

And I do think it's odd that this is an AD-13 thread while a thread about gay marriage is AD-17. I suppose it's just because gay marriage is such a hot-button issue in America today, while there aren't ballot measures about legalising polygamy. Perhaps a moderator could provide a better reason for how the ratings of the threads are determined?

[Musereader]

Posted by ArtemisiaDax
The child of two siblings is going to have an increased risk for birth defects (primarily because if both siblings have rare traits which are hidden by the presence of a dominant gene inherited from one parent, if they breed with each other, the trait is MUCH more likely to be displayed (about 25%). Every human is thought to harbor a number of lethal recessive traits, but the odds of randomly mating with someone else in the general population who carries the same lethal recessive trait is quite small.

I said not nessacerrily going to have a defect, there have been cases of sibling Incest in england where the child has turned out fine, but an increased risk is definate. And also you are assuming the presence of a leathal recessive trait in both siblings, if two siblings have no genetic defects then no amount of inbreeding is going to produce one (though not very easy to check at the moment).

To clarify on my stance on legalising plural marriages, I don't think any of the western world has a legal system that could handle the ramifications of plural marriage in all of its forms,even the Islamic world's legal system can only handle polygyny and trying to legalise it woud probably result in chaos, so bad idea, except that legalising polygyny is one way of more effectivly policing currently illegal polygyny among the mormon splinter groups, not the only way but you Americans do not seem to have the problem in hand very much.

[ArtemisiaDax]

And also you are assuming the presence of a leathal recessive trait in both siblings, if two siblings have no genetic defects then no amount of inbreeding is going to produce one (though not very easy to check at the moment).

As I've said, every human being is thought to harbor several lethal recessive mutations (I think the number is somewhere around seven or nine, although I sold my genetics textbook recently and can't reference it any more). If you mate with a sibling, your chance of giving your children both copies of the recessive mutation rise from virtually 0% in mating randomly to 25%, which is a good reason not to allow those types of mating to happen. However, this is getting rather OT (since this is a polygamy board and not one to discuss laws about all types of mating) so I'll stop.