Predestination or Free Will?

[Sherlock Holmes]

This is a major dispute among Christians, one which goes as far back as the ancient church. Does God, in His all-knowingness, predestine people to be saved (and therefore, some to be lost), or does He "merely" extend the offer of salvation to all, and people freely choose to accept or reject His offer of salvation?

This is a subject I've been reading up on lately. There seem to be Scripture passages which suggest predestination, and others which suggest free will, and still others which include both in the same verse. (I'm sorry I don't know them off-hand, I will find them later and post the ones I'm thinking about)

So, if you are a Christian, what do you believe? Did you choose of your own free will to become a Christian? Or did God predestine you? Or some combination of the two?

If you are not a Christian...does this apparent dichotomy exist in other religions? If so, how is it resolved?

[Wab]

Scripturally free will is at the heart of humanity. In Genesis God endowed man with free will and the ability to choose right and wrong hence the debacle with the tree.

Predestination is a cop-out (like the theory that some people are born evil).

[Alexia]

From a Christian viewpoint, God gave man the ability of free will when he created them. I believe there is some sort of analogy that asks the point of creating something that is forced to worship you. A lot more satisfaction comes from people choosing to worship you. Thats where true compassion is.

However, from the very beginning God knows what path you are going to take. This is what people most commonly confuse with "predestination". He never chooses for you, but knows from the day you were created what you yourself will choose.

Because of that idea, the misconception of "predestination" in the Christian faith began.

[HogwartsChaplain]

Predestination is a cop-out (like the theory that some people are born evil).

Technically speaking, the theology that some people are "born evil" or destined for hell from the beginning is called double predestination, which is a whole 'nother matter.... ;)

[nightingale]

I'll try and tell how it was once explained to me in a way that I thought satisfied me as much as was possible because I'm one of those people that don't really think we're really meant to know all the secrets of the universe.

God and humankind live in different moments/viewpoints. God is in eternity, he has an eternal viewpoint. Meaning he sees things as a whole, complete.

Man has a much smaller viewpoint, he sees things as cause and effect, not it their complete entirety.

Therefore, I think both predestination and free will are true, depending on what your looking at the world as.

[Katze]

I always had a problem with the notion that God knew what would happen to people in the end. That notion leads me to ask about all those people who are damned, and did God intend them to be damned? If if that's the case, how can an all loving God **** his own children to hell?

I think he knows the greater whole of where we as a people will end up without his guidance, but what happens to each individual is largely up to us. We have free-will to pursue his grace or to reject it.

[aiko amaya]

I think God wants us all to be savedbut because he gave us free will he knows not all of us will choose to be. He does not choose who is going to heaven, and if we don't follow his will people won't go to heaven, andb ecause we don't always follow his will (if at all) some people don't get to go. If we had followed gods will however we would all find christ. So we aren't predestineded it's more like Us messing up gods plan. Caurse I don't think I explained myself very well.

[Sherlock Holmes]

Technically speaking, the theology that some people are "born evil" or destined for hell from the beginning is called double predestination, which is a whole 'nother matter.... ;)
Care to elaborate? It seems to me that if you accept "single" predestination---of the elect to salvation---that predestination of the unelect to hell would necessarily follow. But you're talking to an unreformed Protestant, so what do I know? :D

[daniel4hp]

I'm not particularly familiar with "single" predestination, but my understanding of it is that God has predestined some people for heaven, but everyone else can choose -- ie, that since God doesn't want anyone to go to hell, he hasn't predestined anyone for d*mnation. In other words, no one is guanteed to go to hell. Those who are not predestined for heaven have the choice of believing in Jesus and thus being saved.

But this could be all wrong...

[HogwartsChaplain]

...God has predestined some people for heaven, but everyone else can choose -- ie, that since God doesn't want anyone to go to hell, he hasn't predestined anyone for d*mnation. In other words, no one is guanteed to go to hell. Those who are not predestined for heaven have the choice of believing in Jesus and thus being saved.

Daniel has explained it well. My understanding of double predestination is that God predestines some for heaven and others for hell.

I can't check my normal reference books, though... because they're all packed for our impending move. I'll check in when I have my books unpacked and I have internet access again (hopefully next week), to see where the question has gone.

[Morgoth]

Okay, from a non-Christian perspective, it would seem to me that Predestination is a very easy way out for Christianity, because it helps reason why some people aren't Christians and some are. I've never trusted the idea of predestination at all, because it came from a period where religious ignorance was prevalent and was a reasurring way for Christians to explain why some don't accept the Christian message. However, it's a great philosophy regardless of it's plausibility.

[JofpGallagher]

I'm Catholic and I think there is a mix of both. God can do everything he wants, so he can "make" certain people to do a mission on Earth God wants them to do, hence those persons are predestinated to be saved. For example, I think that the Virgin Mary was predestinated to be Jesus mother rather than God looking at the world people to find the perfect "fit" for his son's mother. Judas (In Spanish) was predestinated to be condemned. Jesus predicted his betrayal, and Jesus said that he will be damned for the eternity in Hell. So, that makes Judas a predestinated bad guy who will end in Hell. Maybe, I'm wrong, but that's how I see it.
I think most of the people have the free will tool to choose their paths on Earth. If they choose well, they will have the Lord's blessing, and will end in grace with him. If they choose wrong, they will not be recognized by the Lord the day they die.

[Sherlock Holmes]

Okay, from a non-Christian perspective, it would seem to me that Predestination is a very easy way out for Christianity, because it helps reason why some people aren't Christians and some are. I've never trusted the idea of predestination at all, because it came from a period where religious ignorance was prevalent and was a reasurring way for Christians to explain why some don't accept the Christian message. However, it's a great philosophy regardless of it's plausibility.

lol, don't all Christian ideas, except for a very few very modern ones, come from a time of religious ignorance? It's a theological argument, made by theologians who were the educated people of their day. I agree, however, that it seems like an easy way to explain why some people are Christian and some aren't.

On the other hand, it's always seemed quite unjust to me, for God to pre-select some to salvation. It doesn't seem right to me that my God-given sense of justice should clash with God's actions. Nevertheless, there is no escaping verses such as Romans 8:30 and Ephesians 1:11:


And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
In him we were also chosen,[ 1:11 Or were made heirs] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.

Then again, what is the point of the apostles asking people to believe in Jesus, etc., if it's all predestined?

Currently, my "theology" on the matter is to compare God to an chess grandmaster, a really good one. Such a player is such a master that the outcome of the game is known from the beginning: predestined. He will win the game, no matter what I do. But I still have the free will to do whatever I want, within the rules of the game.

[Juniper]

I too am not religious and believe in free choice. Even from religious point of view free choice reins over predestination. If you are religious then god given you not only love from the death of his son but the right to choose your own destiny from the freedom of choice. It is like a parent realising that there children are old enough to choose for themselves. From a Christian point of view, god believed that his children where old enough to make there own free choice and from what I can see that is why his son died on the cross for you all. To show you not only love but to free you from predestination and give you the right to choose for yourselves. God and his son let go of there children for that very reason, to see if they could stand on there own two feet.

So I believe in free will to all.

[Hawk 92]

I think that the whole subject of predestination boils down to man's inability to see the whole painting.

Man at first was created to be immortal. Therefore time was not a restriction to him. Eventually man would have gained the ability to see the whole painting (creation) from beginning to end. Through the fall man entered time and lost the ability to see the whole painting. Now man can only see a part of the painting, predominately the part that he lives in. Perhaps in the end man will once again be able to see the whole picture.

[fuzzymunchie321]

i believe that Heavenly Father knows all the outcomes of all the choices we could ever make. He knows us and so he knows what we'll choose, but the actual choosing is up to us

[star22]

I think that this is one of those issues that we are never going to fully understand. I kind of believe in both. I lean towards predestination because I do not see how God could not know and plan exactly what we are going to do. He is God and all-powerful after all. I believe, though, that we still make choices and are responsible for them.

[ultimate sacrifice]

On the other hand, it's always seemed quite unjust to me, for God to pre-select some to salvation. It doesn't seem right to me that my God-given sense of justice should clash with God's actions. Nevertheless, there is no escaping verses such as Romans 8:30 and Ephesians 1:11:

Then again, what is the point of the apostles asking people to believe in Jesus, etc., if it's all predestined?

I've always interpretted those scriptures to refer to all "mankind"/"humanity". Not just those who have chosen to believe. The grace/salvation of God in Jesus Christ is offered to all freely. (Ephesians 2:8&9) Reflect on the last few minutes that Jesus was on the cross....One of the robbers hanging on a cross next to him taunted him to get them all down from their crosses if he was God and the other asked Jesus to remember him when he entered his Kingdom, Jesus responded and told the one who asked Jesus to remember him...that he would see him in paradise. (John 23:39-43)

Many would say that God predestines us to receive him, I think that God wants all to receive/accept him. (John 3:16) He may know who will choose him, but he does not desire for any to "perish". We have a choice even up to our dying breath, just as the robber on the cross next to Jesus did. We separates ourselves from God.

He created us to have fellowship with us. He "predestined" us to be with him because that was the intention of our creation. We truly cannot grasp/fathom the depth of the love of the father for us, his creation.

Romans 8:37-39 - "But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

[fawkes5]

Free will. Which is also the reason why God doesn't just come in and fix everything that's wrong in this planet. He gave us free will and we have to learn to use it wisely before we can grow back to Him.

So what happens if a soul chooses all the wrong things in this lifetime? I think he/she is given another chance in another lifetime. I like the concept of an "old soul."

[Earth_Fire]

I believe that God has a predestined plan for all of us. This predestined plan is God's first choice for our lives, however He gave us free will and is our choice whether or not we accept His plan and walk the path He has chosen for us.

[Mundungus Fletc]

I'm a Catholic and I certainly hope that we will all end up in heaven (whatever that means - the earthly concepts I've read of it seem tedious in the extreme) So I hope to be able to talk to Judas amongst others. Who apart from God knows what is in our mind at the moment of death. (Judas would be the ideal patron saint for politicians - what did St Thomas More ever do to deserve that burden?)

Whilst I believe that God knows where we will end up I don't and nor does anyone else - to claim that I am predestined for heaven for whatever reason is hubris of the highest order. There's a splendid novel on the subject "Memoirs of a Justified Sinner." It can be found here

http://www.pagebypagebooks.com/James_Hogg/The_Private_Memoirs_and_Confessions_of_A_Justified_Sinner/

[Lincoln]

Well, I think that some people were created with a predestiny if you will. Moses, Abraham, and Adam of course, but these men all had a choice about whether or not they fulfilled their potentials.

I don't think that's what the Calvinists meant when they published their doctrine on predestination though. I think the idea that some people are born to be forever evil or good is very contrary to the teachings of Christ. I believe that to God, all of our time really happens at the same time, or at least that He has a very different perspective on time than we do. Of course, we're limited by our humanity, so it's difficult to imagine how God could be omniscient and yet that predestination is not true.

Nevertheless, agency is one of the most fundamental aspects of the gospel of Christ. If we didn't have free will, there'd have been no point to our creation.

[Snowangel]

I would not describe myself as a Christian so I don't worry about a lot of this stuff. However, I do think that the debate is interesting.

The main problem I have with this whole debate is this: if God knows what we are going to do before we do it and he knows that some of us are not going to be going to heaven, why would he even bother to create those people in the first place (if indeed going to heaven is truly what he wants for all of us)? What's the point of it all? If he already knows who's worthy of going to heaven, why doesn't he just bring them to heaven in the first place? It just doesn't really make sense (at least in my opinion).

[amy_gamgee]

Well, I think that some people were created with a predestiny if you will. Moses, Abraham, and Adam of course, but these men all had a choice about whether or not they fulfilled their potentials.
**snip**
Nevertheless, agency is one of the most fundamental aspects of the gospel of Christ. If we didn't have free will, there'd have been no point to our creation.

This is my feeling, too. I am a Christian (more specifically, I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) and we believe that every person was given "free agency," in other words, the ability to make choices. Our whole purpose on this earth is to make choices to shape ourselves and to lead ourselves back to Him. We cannot, however, choose the consequence of our choices (which stinks sometimes!)

We also believe that God knows each one of us - our strengths, our weaknesses, etc - so he "knows" what our choices will be much like a parent "knows" when a child is making good or bad choices. (Does that make sense? Like I know when my daughter is going to disobey me because she is my offspring & I know her personality extremely well.) And because God knows us all so well, he has <i>foreordained</i> (or appointed), not predestined, many people to become leaders or prophets, etc. (such as Lincoln's example of Moses & Abraham).

All in all, I believe that no one's fate is sealed, and that God is just up there, routing for us all to make the right choices. :)

[fawkes5]

Well, I think that some people were created with a predestiny if you will. Moses, Abraham, and Adam of course, but these men all had a choice about whether or not they fulfilled their potentials.

Yup, this kind of sums it up for me. Let me just quote Dumbledore, "It's our choices, not our abilities, that show who we truly are." We are born with the potential to fulfill our destiny, but it's entirely up to us if we do.

[Lincoln]

This is my feeling, too. I am a Christian (more specifically, I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints)

Go figure. ;) (I'm LDS too.)

[ultimate sacrifice]

I find this subject completely perplexing and mysterious and frustrating. I believe in the absolute omnipotence of God and yet I know that our free will and our choices play such a huge part in our individual faith walk. Additionally, as I have studied history, I see how the choices and "free will" of others, especially those in positions of authority/leadership over their "people" have impacted the world for both good and evil.

I just can't seem to get my head around it all, so by faith I just exhale and "keep on truckin"! It seems like the more I study and the more I try to understand and comprehend, the more confused I get!

I just can't believe that God would "predestin"/"will" Nero to torture hundreds of thousands of Christians...skinning them alive and sending them to the arena's to be devoured by lions, etc. The same with the Crusades and the oppression of the Catholic Church on the general population until Martin Luther came along and started challenging the hierarchy of the time...then there is Hitler and Pearl Harbor and Hiroshima and Nagasaki and Stalin and Castro and North/South Korea and Cambodia and Laos and all of the dead as a result of that Dictator (what was his name? Was it Ho Chi Min?) And then there is Saddam Hussein and his sons and that whole group of crazies and now we have terrorism and all of the horrific acts of violence and oppression that the terrorists are responsible for and all of the brutal killing on the African Continent.

I just have a really hard time believing and accepting that God predestined all of the above plus the other billions of acts of oppression/violence and hate that have been played out throughout history, many in his name. It doesn't mesh with who God is. The choices of mankind are destroying us. I don't know or understand how God will save us from ourselves.

Like I said, I really do not get the predestination thing.

[Mundungus Fletc]

ultimate sacrifice. Surely when God knows something is going to happen it does not mean that he 'wills' it.

I just can't seem to get my head around it all, so by faith I just exhale and "keep on truckin"! It seems like the more I study and the more I try to understand and comprehend, the more confused I get!

I agree with you. Theology is an extremely complex area of study. (There's a wonderful Evelyn Waugh quote where a bishop says something like 'an interest in theology by a layman is a sure sign of incipient insanity) I don't believe we can fully 'understand and comprehend' because as St Paul says we see 'through a glass darkly.' For my part I accept what people I trust say and try simply to have the faith of a child.

[ultimate sacrifice]

[QUOTE=Mundungus Fletc]ultimate sacrifice. Surely when God knows something is going to happen it does not mean that he 'wills' it.

That is just an exellent point!!! Just because God in his omnipotence knows something will happen, doesn't mean that he wills it. I'm going to lock that one away in my memory bank.

I get so discouraged sometimes with the complete insanity of the human race. Can't see the forrest for the trees, I guess.

I feel that God's ultimate will for us is to be in fellowship with him. In the creation story (this is a paraphrase) we are told that after God was done with everything...he was still lonely so he created man, then when man was lonely, he created woman. We were created in his image to have fellowship with him and with one another. I just think that he so desires to fellowship with us, that he leaves us alone to choose to come to him on our own. It's a mysterious and perplexing issue to try to grasp. However, in the big picture...I think he pre-destined us to have fellowship with him and with one another, but I just don't think he causes/ pre-destines the Hurricane/Volcano/Tornado/Earthquake to destroy the land and the populations of the earth. (Well he did it once with a flood and then promised not to flood the earth again and gave the rainbow as his sign of the promise to Noah.) I don't have a pat answer for all of the skeptics, but I just don't think he "wills" these kinds of things any more than he "willed" September 11 or the floods or the horrific mutilation and destruction of human life on the African continent right now.

What's that quote...something about the greatest injustice is when good men do nothing. Something like that. It just all makes my heart hurt. And when it is done in the name of God it just makes me so ill.

[Mundungus Fletc]

"All it takes for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing."

[Sorcha]

Wonderful quote!

I'm a little torn about this one. I was raised to believe, as a Baptist, that we all choose our path, but that God had an ideal plan for us. Also, I was told that the Holy Spirit moves in us and that is what prompts people to accept Christ. My Presbyterian friend explained predestination to me, and it makes sense that God would be the one moving the Spirit in us. So I really don't know which it is.

[winter snow]

God gave us free will. He knows the path his children will take, but he leaves it up to us to "choose" for ourselves the direction we travel in.

The fact that God knows the path we'll take leaves some with the conception that everything is predestined. That is a flawed viewpoint.

God created this world and everything on it. He gave us free will to do as we pleased. Eve "chose" to pluck the apple off the tree. Adam "chose" to eat that same apple. God gave Adam and Eve rules to live by, but he also gave them free will to "choose" if they would follow those rules or not. They "chose" not to and were cast out of the Garden of Eden.

In today's world, there are a lot of terrible things that befall mankind. People "choose" to disregard the rules of society and act according to their own will. I don't believe God would set it up for mankind to be abused, raped, mutilated, strangled etc. Certain factions of mankind "choose" to perform these horrific deeds.

Despotic zealots and Governments running out of control, genocide running rampant all over the planet, God didn't plan this. This is the "choice" of the people in charge of these situations.

God gave us the Ten Commandments. Many of our humankind "choose" to ignore those laws, and use their "choice" in the wrong way, the way that God didn't intend.

It all comes down to our choices. We can 'choose" to do the right thing.

[jo schmo]

well i believe in free will. my beliefs intertwine with christianity and islam. i believe we create our own destiny by choices yet we are guided on the right path when god desires to guide us and led astray to teach us lessons when god desires to.

well i believe in free will. my beliefs intertwine with christianity and islam. i believe we create our own destiny by choices yet we are guided on the right path when god desires to guide us and led astray to teach us lessons when god desires to. so it is a mix of free will and predestination.

[accioinsight7]

Predestination was first brought to my attention in the study of Puritanism during history classes. Being a studying Catholic, I have been taught that all men have free will. Even the Puritans, who believed firmly in predestination and the "elect," believed that all men could choose to do good deeds, but of course, only a few of those who tried to show themselves as the "elect" would actually make it to heaven. I am sure that there are those who believe God has every step, every motion, every word planned out for us, but I do not agree. God made us so that he could share His love with us. Why then, with His unlimited, infinite love, would He choose some of these creatures, upon whom He rains down love, to go to Hell? It doesn't make sense. He of course would want all of us to share perfectly in His Kingdom. We choose our paths, though God, being omniscient, of course knows what we ultimately will choose to do. Still, as a gift to us, and to separate us from animals, God gave us souls, higher intellect, and Free Will. This is what I have been taught, and have pondered, and have believed.

[Tiberius]

Daniel has explained it well. My understanding of double predestination is that God predestines some for heaven and others for hell.

That's nice of him. So, is it like, if you're predestined for Hell, you can go out and rob hurt and generally be unpleasant, because, who cares, you're going to Hell anyway?

If God knows what you're going to do, then you have no choice in the matter. Therefore, no free will. If you are someone who believes in both, could you please explain to me how you can have free will if the outcome has been determined already?

Currently, my "theology" on the matter is to compare God to an chess grandmaster, a really good one. Such a player is such a master that the outcome of the game is known from the beginning: predestined. He will win the game, no matter what I do. But I still have the free will to do whatever I want, within the rules of the game.

No matter how good a player is, they'll never be able to look at a chessboard before a game has started and say, "Mate in 143 moves." Besides, even though he knows you will lose, he doesn't know HOW you will lose. You might make a wrong move with that rook you have over there. Or you might move your pawn away from the square where he needs to be to protect your king.

it's like this. If you are floating out in the ocean with no liferaft, no food, just you out there, away from all the shipping lanes, you know almost for sure that you are going to die. But how? Eaten by a shark, perhaps? Die of starvation? Maybe drown, or heat exhaustion from the lack of shade. there are just so many posibilities that you can never know for sure.

[iluvhhr]

I'm not Christian (I'm agnostic and go to a Roman Catholic school), but I'm learning about predestination, Puritans, etc. in US history, and I don't believe any of it. Humans have free will and make their own decisions- God (if he/she exists) hasn't chosen lives for people.

[Tane]

I would hope it is not predestination because if it was then some people would be destined to fail no matter how hard they try as not everyone can succeed. I think I believe in free will, the ability to choose our direction though so far life has shown only predestination as many situations lie in the hands of others. I would like to believe that we have a choose and hence free will but at the end of the day I don't think we do or at least that is how I see the world from my little space.

[ornjbreezy]

I'm not sure predestination and free will are mutually exclusive. Look at it this way: we all make choices. We can only make one choice one time, so that we will never make that choice again. It is possible to think, then, that there is only one choice we can make, hence fate. So, we are fated by free will, in a very Oedipal way. We must choose, we really have no choice. Sort of like in the Matrix; we have already made the choice, now we need to understand why we made it. This makes sense to me, even though I'm rather agnostic. Thoughts?

[morgiana]

There is a belief that you pick what you need to learn in your coming life before you are born. You pick your parents because of what they can teach you. Some people believe that groups of people come to Earth to make changes. Maybe they are Nazis or they all get AIDS to bring about awareness of a problem.
Is this a form of predestination? It would be the ultimate form. To come to Earth and kill people or be killed for the hopeful betterment of mankind. WWII was about ethnic cleansing and there were many atrocities. What kind of soul volunteers to torture, maim, and kill innocent people. What kind of soul wants to get AIDS to bring about more monogamy and less promiscuity?

This would also be a form of free will because you, yourself chose your life. What you do with it is still up to you.

[LewsTherin]

God does choose people to be saved, but He chooses those people at the right time. After all, a person who blasphemes and curses God at every oppertunity is not exactly ready to become a Christian, and must thus have the Holy Spirit and other Christians work in their life before they can be ready. Once it is the right time, the Holy Spirit convicts that person and they, depending on their choice, are then saved (or not). Thus, God chooses the moment of conviction, but it is up to the person to respond.

[Tiberius]

God does choose people to be saved, but He chooses those people at the right time. After all, a person who blasphemes and curses God at every oppertunity is not exactly ready to become a Christian, and must thus have the Holy Spirit and other Christians work in their life before they can be ready. Once it is the right time, the Holy Spirit convicts that person and they, depending on their choice, are then saved (or not). Thus, God chooses the moment of conviction, but it is up to the person to respond.

But if God knows everything, would he already know how the person would respond? So why the moment in the first place?

[LewsTherin]

But if God knows everything, would he already know how the person would respond? So why the moment in the first place?
God can know what we will do, and yet we can still maintain our free will. How that works I do not know, but it does. He called the disciples to follow him, and probably knew they would, but they still needed to make that decision for themselves. It's the same thing with salvation: God leads you to the door - you have to walk through it.

[Tiberius]

God can know what we will do, and yet we can still maintain our free will. How that works I do not know, but it does. He called the disciples to follow him, and probably knew they would, but they still needed to make that decision for themselves. It's the same thing with salvation: God leads you to the door - you have to walk through it.

It seems a bit weird. You say that it is possible, yet you can't say why, in fact you (along with everyone else in this thread) can't even understand how we can have free will when the outcome of all our choices has already been decided.

Here's an example. I pick up a hammer with the intention of dropping it so see what happens. I let go, and of course, it falls to the ground. Now, everyone on the planet could have told me that. So, what was gained by actually performing the experiment? Not very much.

Here's another situation that just came to me. If we have to make a choice to accept God, is there a time limit? I am an atheist. Now, let's say I am faced with imminent death (I technically AM, as it's coming and there's not a thing I can do about it, but it won't be for a long time - hopefully). Now, if I need to accept god in order to go to heaven, when is the last moment I can make that choice? What if I am going to make the choice, but I die before I actually get around to making that choice? Would I still go to heaven? After all, wouldn't god know for a fact that i was going to change my atheistic ways and embrace him? But, if like you say, I have to 'walk through the door myself", well, i never actually got around to that, did I? I died before I could. So would I be denied access to heaven because I enver made the choice?

It's enough to give one a headache.

[LewsTherin]

It seems a bit weird. You say that it is possible, yet you can't say why, in fact you (along with everyone else in this thread) can't even understand how we can have free will when the outcome of all our choices has already been decided.
Well, this isn't science we're talking about and it does not follow physical laws. God is outside of time, unlike us, who are bound by it. Now, science struggles to visualize four dimensional space (it's practically impossible). How then can we hope to visualize space higher than four dimensions? We can't. That is why I cannot tell you how God knows what we'll do, and yet we maintain a free will. I wish I could, I really do, but I can't.


Here's another situation that just came to me. If we have to make a choice to accept God, is there a time limit? I am an atheist. Now, let's say I am faced with imminent death (I technically AM, as it's coming and there's not a thing I can do about it, but it won't be for a long time - hopefully). Now, if I need to accept god in order to go to heaven, when is the last moment I can make that choice? What if I am going to make the choice, but I die before I actually get around to making that choice? Would I still go to heaven? After all, wouldn't god know for a fact that i was going to change my atheistic ways and embrace him? But, if like you say, I have to 'walk through the door myself", well, i never actually got around to that, did I? I died before I could. So would I be denied access to heaven because I enver made the choice?
The Bible says that you must confess with your mouth and believe with your heart, and then you will be saved. A conscious decision is required. Whether God knew what you were going to choose or not is irrelevant; we're down here, He's up there, and that decision is for our benefit, not His.

[Tiberius]

Well, this isn't science we're talking about and it does not follow physical laws. God is outside of time, unlike us, who are bound by it. Now, science struggles to visualize four dimensional space (it's practically impossible). How then can we hope to visualize space higher than four dimensions? We can't. That is why I cannot tell you how God knows what we'll do, and yet we maintain a free will. I wish I could, I really do, but I can't.

I don't get why the number of dimensions the universe has has anything to do with free will.

The Bible says that you must confess with your mouth and believe with your heart, and then you will be saved. A conscious decision is required. Whether God knew what you were going to choose or not is irrelevant; we're down here, He's up there, and that decision is for our benefit, not His.

Isn't that like if you see someone rushing into a burning house to save another person, but dying before they get to the second person, and then you say that the first person didn't do anything heroic? It's basically the same logic.

Ah, it's hard not to get into a debate over this, isn't it?

[Sirius Seeker]

I have spent a lot of time recently in the DoIMC about whether or not God exists. In looking around at other threads, I found this one particularly interesting, espcially since I am Presbyterian (and therefore Calvanist) and do believe that predestination is a biblical truth. However, that doesn't make it any easier to get our minds around. This is a very difficult subject because it challenges a lot of our current ideas of fairness or free will or whatever else we have issues with, and that goes for believers as well as for non-believers. But the truth of the matter is that salvation is through Christ alone, not through Christ plus belief in predestination plus plus plus... This is a good conversation for the sake of trying to understand the deeper mysteries of God but should not make or break our salvation based on the position that we take regarding it. It is good to see that people are willing to discuss it.

Seeing as how this is tough to explain (especially on such an impersonal level as internet forums) I am going to include some topical summaries with biblical references that will probably explain my view of things better than I can. What I am going to write is not my actual work (it is copied from side bars in my study Bible) but I do support and agree with what it says. I welcome and encourage any questions people might have regarding what this says. I apologize if this is long, but it basically fleshes out all of my beliefs regarding predestination in one post, so hopefully it will save time in the long run.

My basic point regarding predestination is this: God is just. Being just, He should give us all (every single one of us) exactly what we deserve: death and eternal separation from Him. The fact that He is merciful and gracious enough to save even one undeserving sinner is cause enough for His praise. The fact that He saves "an innumerable multitude" is even greater cause. Therefore I don't think we have any right to say, "Hey, that's not fair, you only saved some people, not all people." Because God could easily respond and say, "Yes, but in truth I had no obligation to save anyone at all." It's like being broke and living destitute the street. Then someone comes by and gives you a $100 dollar bill out of kindness. Would you have the guts to say, "Hey, wait a minuite! You only gave me $100? I expect you could do a lot better than that!" In a sense, its the same way with God. The fact that He chose to save anyone at all is an amazing example of loving grace.

The Purpose of God: Predestination and Foreknowledge
"Predestination" is a word often used to signify God's foreordaining of all the events of world history -- past, present, and future. This usage is quite appropriate. In Scripture and historic Protestant theology, however, "predestination" refers specifically to God's decision, made in eternity before the world existed, regarding the final destinies of individual persons. In general, the NT speaks of the predestination, or election, of particular sinners for salvation and eternal life (Romans 8:29, Ephesians 1:4-5, 1:11), although Scripture on occasion ascribes to God an advance decision about those who are finally not saved (Romans 9:6-29, 1 Peter 2:8, Jude 4). For this reason it is usual in Protestant theology to define predestination as including both God's decision to save some from sin (election) and the corresponding decision not to save others (reprobation).

It is sometimes asserted that God's choice of individuals for salvation is based on His foreknowledge that they would choose Christ as their Savior eventually. Foreknowledge in this case means passive foresight by God of what individuals will do apart from His foreordaining action. But there are weighty objections to the view that election is based on passive foresight.

"Foreknow" in Romans 8:29 and 11:2 indicates not only an advance recognition, but also an active choice by God of His people. It does not express the idea of a spectator's passive anticipation of what will happen spontaneously. God's "knowledge" of His people in Scripture implies a special relationship of loving choice (Genesis 18:19).

Since all are naturally dead in sin (cut off from the life of God and unresponsive to Him), no one who hears the gospel will ever come to repentance and faith without the inner renewal that only God can impart (Ephesians 2:4-10). Jesus said, "No one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father" (John 6:65). Sinners choose Christ becasue God chose them first, and moved them to their choice by graciously renewing their hearts.

Though all human acts are free in the sense of an immediate self-determination, such acts are also the outworking of God's eternal purpose and foreordination. We have difficulty understanding precisely how divine sovreignty and human free will and responsibility are compatible, but Scripture everywhere assumes that they are so (Acts 2:23, 4:28).

Effectual Calling and Conversion
"Effectual calling" is the title of Chapter 10 of the Westminster Confession (1647). The chapter begins: "All those whom God has predestined unto life, and those only, He is pleased, in His appointed and accepted time, effectually to call, by His Word and Spirit, out of the state of sin and death, in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation, by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God, taking away their hearts of stone, and giving them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and, by His almighty power, determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ: yet so, as they come most freely, being made willing by His grace."

What is described here is the process of Christian conversion, involving illumination, regeneration, and the transformation of the will. It is a sovreign work of God, "effectually" (that is, effectively) performed by the power of the Holy Spirit. The doctrine corresponds to Paul's use of the word "call" in the sense of "to bring to faith" and his use of "called" to mean "converted" (Romans 1:6, 8:28, 8:30, 9:24; 1 Corinthians 1:9, 1:24, 1:26, 7:18, 7:21; Galatians 1:15; Ephesians 4:1-2; 2 Thesselonians 2:14). This calling is different from the "general calling" or "general invitation" as described in Jesus' explanation of the parable of the wedding feast (Matthew 22:14). The general, external invitation can fail to be answered, or can be explained away through attempts at science, nature, etc, but the effectual calling is a particular act of God resulting in regeneration. It cannot be refused (John 10:3-4).

Original sin means that all human beings are by nature "dead," or unresponsive to God. Through the effectual calling, God gives life to the dead. The outward call of God to faith in Christ is communicated everywhere through reading, preaching, and explaining the gospel. In the inner, effectual call the Holy Spirit enlightens the mind and renews the heart of those God has chosen to that the gospel is accepted as the truth of God, and God in Christ becomes the object of love and affection. When once regenerated and having the will set free to choose God and the good, a sinner turns away from the former pattern of living and recieves Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, to start a new life with Him.


Sorry this was long, thanks for taking the time to read this.

[Tiberius]

Heya, Sirius Seeker. Good to see you in here!

My biggest problem regarding this topic is this:

If God knows the future, if everything's planned, then God knows what tomorrow's lotto numbers will be. Let's say he writes them down on a piece of paper - 12, 15, 32 and 7.

Now, if God is all powerful, can he change them? Sure. But then, the numbers won't be 12, 15, 32 and 7 anymore. How can this be? The only way for it to be true is if God was wrong when he wrote the numbers down.

Simply put, if God says the lotto numbers will be such and such, then it is set in stone, and they can't be changed. But if they can't be changed because they are set in stone, how can God change them? After all, if they were changed, they weren't set in stone to begin with. But if they weren't set in stone, how could God have predicted them?

[gemstone121]

Interesting topic - sorry if any of the stuff I say has already been said I didn't read through the whole thread.

Anyway here is my oppion on this matter. I think that god knows everything that we will do in our lives and the choices we will make. Although he knows that some of us won't chose to believe in him he doesn't intervene in the decission they make. So the arguement that comes with the idea of predestination - why would god condem his children can be explained by the idea that he allows us to make choices even though he already knows what those choices will be, and he doesn't interevene if we make the wrong choice. The fact that god doesn't interevene once we make the choice could be said to be free will in that he allows us to go ddown the wrong path, however if you believe that god knows the choices we will make in life then it is predestination to some degree. We are still able to make choice but it is already known what choice we will make.

~ Gems

[Tiberius]

Gem, if God knows that we aren't going to believe in him, how is that a choice we make? If god knows what our choice will be before we make the choice, then we can't decide anything else.

Let me put it this way.

If God knew from the moment I was born that I would later decide to be an atheist, did I have a choice in the matter? After all, I had to be an atheist, because if I chose to be religious, that means God was wrong. And God can't be wrong (if he exists at all). So, I had no choice. I had to do what God foresaw, because to do otherwise means God is not all-knowing. But if I had to do what God foresaw, then I have no free will.

You can't have an all-knowing god and free will.

[joelapp]

Pure predestination would in fact give the heave-ho to free will. However, the Bible does not advocate it. God has given everyone the opportunity to make the choice as to whether to accept what he has done for them or not. The gift of life is there for all. The predestined portion is simply each human's destiny in Him. It is the destiny of man to submit to his creator and receive the gift that He has for him. God simply offers it for free and awaits an answer from each recipient. If you choose to refuse it then that is your choice. Unfortunately, that would then require you to pay the penalty that is paid when one receives the gift. In other words, the gift is like a get out of jail free card. If one says "No thanks", then it's on them to pay the price. A lot of people think that God should just give everyone a free pass, but, in reality, he does. What exactly do any of us have to offer the infinite? The price on our part seems steep if you think it will somehow sap your freedom (whatever that means), but the benefits far outweigh any cost (peace, joy, real contentment and eternal life in the end). It doesn't guarantee a smooth, trouble free life here, but it gives one the power to cope with things. The lie is that you don't need it, or that you're good enough or that he will accept your good deeds as enough. But there is only one way to please God, and that is to do what he says. Just like any other good parent.

[Tiberius]

I don't like the idea that God is the ONLY way to happiness. I don't even believe in God in the first place.

[joelapp]

Your unbelief doesn't negate his existence, but this is a matter of faith.

[gemstone121]

Tiberus - That was the point I was trying to make. I'm not very good at explaining myself so it might have got confusing. What I was getting at is a lot of people say they have free will to choose whether they accept god however they also believe that god knows everything about them. The point I was trying to make was that you can't believe that you have the free will to choose but then say that god knows everything about you and the choices you will make.

The Bible does speak of predestination however it also seems to sugest that this is a choice that we make, and this is were the whole debate starts. You can't ignore that the bible does sugeest predestination however you also can't ignore the fact that it also suggests that one chooses to believe. It is rather a confusing topic and one in which I don't think we will ever find the answer too. Regardless of which one you believe in I don't think it makes you any more or less a christian, I think it is just one of thosee things we're not meant to understand.

~ Gems

[steph_HPfan]

WOW! I should have thought of this thread! I love this topic! We talk about it all the time in my Euro class. Ok, I don't think I believe in predestination. I mean, God knows where every one is going to end up, but it's still our choice. Meaning God knows if were going to mess up, if were going to go to Hell or Heaven, but he knows everything, but he doesn't choose, God just knows what we're going to do.

Our fate is still determined by what we do. When John Calvin first came up with this idea I think he was a little confused, he was asking himself the same question Lutheran was asking himself, and that was: What can I do to get to heaven? And he answered himself: nothing, God has already chosen. How John came up with this, I don't know, but it seemed like he was thinking about it too hard for too long (like when you're thinking up ideas for something for a long time and you go "HEY! I got one" after days of thinking only to find out later it wouldn't work at all) because I don't think it's the right answer. Anyways, try to be opened minded about my answer and please don't bite my head off:no: ! I like it so very, very much :agree: !

[Tiberius]

I mean, God knows where every one is going to end up, but it's still our choice. Meaning God knows if were going to mess up, if were going to go to Hell or Heaven, but he knows everything, but he doesn't choose, God just knows what we're going to do.

I'll try not to bite your head off. :cool:

Let's say that events can be flexible or inflexible, as defined below.

If something is going to happen no matter what, then it is inflexible. In other words, we can't change it no matter what.

If something can be changed, then it is flexible. This means that we can change it through the choices we make.

Now, how does this apply to God?

Well, let's say I'm going to make breakfast tomorrow morning. I have a choice. I can have toast, or I can have cereal. Now, just at the moment, I haven't made a decision as to what I'll have, but, presumably God already knows, right?

Let's say he knows I'll have toast. Now, that event (me having toast tomorrow morning) is inflexible because it can't be changed. After all, if it could be changed, then I could have cereal, and that would mean God was wrong. And God, being God, can never be wrong.

So, me having toast tomorrow morning is an inflexible event, and therefore can't be changed.

However, if I have free will, then I should be able to have cereal for breakfast, because by making the choice to have cereal, I am demonstrating that it is an inflexible event. How do I demonstrate it? By showing that I can have cereal when God says I'm going to have toast.

Therefore, if I have free will, then my breakfast tomorrow is flexible. If I am predetermined to have toast for breakfast, then it is inflexible. By saying that God knows ahead of time, but lets us make the choice, you are saying that the event is both flexible and inflexible at the same time. Clearly, this is impossible.

By the way, it doesn't matter if God choses or not. If he can see the outcome of the choice before we have made the choice, then the outcome of that choice has become inflexible and it cannot be changed. the mechanism by which God sees the outcome of that choice is of no consequence.

[morgiana]

I don't think God cares all that much about what we do on a daily basis.

I at least hope he has BETTER things to do.

I think YOU choose a life path before you come to earth so you can learn and grow.

After death you talk to God and decide what to do next.

[ultimate sacrifice]

I heard this staement today...

"You aren't born a winner, You aren't born a loser, You are born a Chooser." Don't have a great amount of theological insight into the predestination issue, but I do think that our Free Will choice to accept him, follow him, love and adore him above all other things is something that God desires from the only creation made in his image. (Genesis 1:26)

Romans 1:6 says that we are "called" or "summoned" by God to Salvation.
Romans 8:29 & 30 says that..."THOSE WHOM HE FOREKNEW, HE ALSO PREDESTINED TO BECOME CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON, SO THAT HE WOULD BE THE FIRSTBORN AMONG MANY BRETHREN...."
Ephesians 1:5 says that..."He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will."

I read some commentary about this...Epesians 1:5-"Predestined-God has determined before-hand that those who believe in Christ will be adopted into His family and conformed to His son (see Romans 8:29). It involves a choice on His part, (vs 1:4); it is done in love (vs 4); it is based on the good pleasure of His perfect will (vs 1: 5, 9, 11); its purpose is to glorify God (vs 14);
but it does not relieve man of his responsibility to believe the gospel in order to bring to pass personally god's predestination (vs 13). (See Revelations 3:20)

Those are a few things that I am aware of that discuss predestination in Scripture, that's the only reference that I know to go to in order to explain the concept.

[Sirius Seeker]

As a Presbyterian, this is my understanding of predestination. Remember, however, that your views on predestination have no bearing on your salvation. If you have accepted Christ as your savior, then it really doen't matter how that acceptance came about in the whole scheme of things. But as a theological discussion, this is certainly a brain teaser and has been a great discussion.

There are two basic ways to look at predestination. The first is a "passive foreknowledge." God knows everything. God knows what choices we will make in our life regarding Him, therefore He acts in accordance to what He knows will eventually be true. But the Bible does not necessarily support this view because it takes away the authority of God and turns Him into a passive observer. It paints a picture of God sitting up there in heaven, looking down on creation, wringing His hands in nervous anticipation thinking, "Pick me....pick me...." like a child hoping that he won't be left out of the kickball game at recess. I held this view for most of my life.

The second view provides God with the authority that He is due. It suggests that God plays a far more active role in bringing people to Himself. However, this view hinges on the initial belief that all of humanity is "dead in sin," that all of our hearts are corrupted by sin. Every single one of us, if left to our own impulses, intentions, devices, and desires, would never willingly choose God. Never. It's not in our nature. If our hearts therefore are truly "dead," then we are in trouble. Something that is truly dead cannot suddenly choose to become alive, it cannot make decisions, and it most certainly cannot choose God.

The only way for us to excape this "death" is to be given a brand new life, or to be "born again." Our hearts as they exist without God cannot choose God. Therefore, God graciously removes our hearts of stone that reject Him and gives us hearts of flesh that accept Him. This transformation is not something that we can do on our own. We are totally incapable of it. "We love God because God first loved us." Therefore, we can now choose God because God first chose us and changed us. God is no longer sitting anxiously in heaven, waiting for us to make up our minds regarding Him. Instead, He actively seeks us out, effectually calls us to Himself, and claims us as His own as adopted children.

We cannot begin to understand how God chooses or why He chooses in this manner. Many will argue that this process is unfair, that God leaves some people out. But think about it from God's perspective: Every person that He chooses to save is just as undeserving as every person He chooses not to save. Therefore, the fact that God is merciful and gracious enough to save even one single undeserving sinner speaks volumes of His character. But the fact that He is going to save "an innumerable multitude" is beyond comprehension. It gives a whole new meaning to "Amazing Grace."

Even though God chooses to give new hearts to some and not to others, we will never know for sure who that does and does not apply to. God gives everyone the responsibility of accepting or rejecting His gift of grace. It is a difficult concept to grasp because it seems contradictory. In a sense, we have the responsibility of our free will to choose or not to choose God, and yet at the same time He gives us the ability or inability to make that decision. Ultimately I think that the bottom line comes down to our choices.

Learning about this concept was very difficult for me at first because it seemed so strange and not very practical. But after struggling through it for a while, I finally got it. When I realized that God had extended His grace to me, not for anything that I had done our would ever do, not for any reason that I deserved, not for any action that I could have initiated on my own will- power, I was truly humbled. The God of the universe chose to bestow His mercy and grace upon "a wretch like me" and gave me the means and the opportunity to worship Him accordingly. I can think of no action or person more worthy of my praise.

[Giebfried]

Here is how I see the issue - after all the debates between the Calvinists (who believe in absolute predestination that can be known to humans- i.e. who are the Elect destined for heaven) and the Armenians (who believe in free will), people basically decided that God has predestined everything in the universe but since we cannot know or change that predestination, we may as well ignore it and continue to live as if we have free will.

It is the middle way... but if you free-willers want to have a hard time sleeping at night you should read about the Principle of Universal Causality... it is what finally won me over to the fate side of the debate

[Tiberius]

Can you tell us about the Principle of Universal Causality, or supply a hyperlink?

[Lynn Tyger]

I am a Christian (officially Missionary Baptist, but believe more Seventh-Day Adventist) and I believe in free will. God knows everything, in my opinion, but he gives us freedom to choose - or at least he doesn't force us into anything. To explain my views a bit more thoroughly, let me start at the beginning of sin.

Satan was originally an angel named Lucifer who had as high of a position as he could without being on the same level as God. At some point, he decided he wanted to be God and to be the one worshipped. He managed to convince 1/3 of the angels to join him, and war broke out in Heaven. Lucifer and his followers - known now more commonly as demons - were cast out of Heaven and Lucifer was renamed Satan.

Eventually, using the form of a snake, Satan tempted Eve. God had given her and Adam one commandment: Don't eat of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (don't ask me why He didn't give it a shorter name). Satan talked her into eating the forbidden fruit and she gave it to Adam, who also ate it. This is what brought sin into the earth and condemned us all. God sent his Son to save us from death.

Now I'll get to my point. It is a Biblical truth that God knows everything. Since he knows everything, he knew that Satan would turn against him. If He didn't believe in free will, He would have stopped it, thus saving everybody a lot of pain and confusion. If He was forceful, He would have destroyed Satan on the spot. God loves His creation and doesn't want us to turn against Him, but because He believes in free will, allows it.

God is also fair, which was why he allowed Satan to live. Satan simply had his own ideas about who should be worshipped and how things should be run, and was apparently very persuasive. God could have destroyed Satan, but it would have been unfair to destroy someone strictly because they had a different view of things and whose way has not been tested. He knew that Satan was wrong; he knew that Satan's ideas would cause more suffering than anything else - but the angels didn't. Neither did/do humans. Had He destroyed Satan then, everybody would have thought He was evil, unfair, and that they were all doomed for even think anything against Him.

Just the same, God knew that Adam and Eve would sin. However, He still gave them a choice: they could obey his commandment and live in the Garden of Eden for all eternity, or they could eat a fruit. He knew their decision, but they made a choice. Eve also had a choice when talking to Satan-in-snake-form: believe him or God. Adam had a choice: eat the fruit, or don't. God knew they'd make the wrong decision, but allowed it.

Today, we are also given the freedom to choose. God just gives us oppurtunities to make a right or wrong decision. We can choose Jesus or we can choose to reject God.

Let's say that someone gives you a copy of the Bible. Through this person, God has given you a way to find Him. God knows what you'll choose, but still offers you a choice. You read the Bible and then have the choice of believing It or not believing It. God knows what you will choose, but you have the choice, and if you choose not to believe that He sent His Son for you, you can never say you didn't have a fair chance into Heaven.

Another example is this: the Bible says we are all born sinners (Romans 3:23), thus we are all predestined to be destroyed spirit and all. "The wages of sin is death." (Romans 6:23) By giving us opputunities to accept Him, He is offering us a chance to go to Heaven, which means He is giving us a choice to change that destiny or keep it. If He did not give us free will, nobody would go to Heaven, because we are all sinners. That means, there is no "elite" among us; it is our choices that determine our fate.

[Mundungus Fletc]

That means, there is no "elite" among us; it is our choices that determine our fate.

I so agree with you. We can all go to heaven or we can all choose not to. (I'm a Catholic btw)

[Sirius Seeker]

Lynn Tyger... well said! That goes perfectly with something that I read this weekend.

A lot of people ask why God doesn't just show Himself to "prove" to everyone that He exists, that He is who He claims to be, and that He can stop all the evil in the world if He "wanted" to. But I heard it stated this way: God chooses not to do these things out of the respect for peoples' rights not to believe in Him. If He were to reveal Himself completely, everyone would have to believe, whether they wanted to or not. They would have no other choice. But some people don't want to believe and are happier thinking that God doesn't exist or that God isn't important to everyday life. Therefore God allows us all to make those decisions regarding Him instead of forcing the answer upon us.

Predestination or not, we all make choices that get us to a certain end. Like a good parent, God gives us just enough freedom to either get it right or screw things up, and we are responsible for making what we consider to be intelligent and informed decisions. God wants people to follow Him because they want to follow Him, not because they have to follow Him. There is a great difference in those situations. I also think that it says alot about the character of God when He is willing to endure scorn, insults, doubts, anger, and indifference from people who don't believe, because He is also willing to let those same people have the freedom to do so.

[Tiberius]

If He were to reveal Himself completely, everyone would have to believe, whether they wanted to or not. They would have no other choice.

But God has revealed himself to people in the past, if you believe the Bible. he appeared in visions to lots of people in the Bible, and he did heaps of wonderful things that left no doubt, such as parting the Red Sea and all that. Considering that he's done it before, why not now.

But I digress...

[MarcKal]

Lynn Tyger... well said! That goes perfectly with something that I read this weekend.

A lot of people ask why God doesn't just show Himself to "prove" to everyone that He exists, that He is who He claims to be, and that He can stop all the evil in the world if He "wanted" to. But I heard it stated this way: God chooses not to do these things out of the respect for peoples' rights not to believe in Him. If He were to reveal Himself completely, everyone would have to believe, whether they wanted to or not. They would have no other choice. But some people don't want to believe and are happier thinking that God doesn't exist or that God isn't important to everyday life. Therefore God allows us all to make those decisions regarding Him instead of forcing the answer upon us.

Predestination or not, we all make choices that get us to a certain end. Like a good parent, God gives us just enough freedom to either get it right or screw things up, and we are responsible for making what we consider to be intelligent and informed decisions. God wants people to follow Him because they want to follow Him, not because they have to follow Him. There is a great difference in those situations. I also think that it says alot about the character of God when He is willing to endure scorn, insults, doubts, anger, and indifference from people who don't believe, because He is also willing to let those same people have the freedom to do so.

What you said!

[Tiberius]

I hope you'll forgive me for asking this again, for I have yet to get an answer that wraps it all up.

If God knows something is going to happen, then it is going to happen no matter what. But if it is going to happen no matter what, how can it be called Free Will? Something that is going to happen no matter what is predetermined, not free will.

[ydnam96]

Hmmm the way I've understood it is this:

Yes, God is all-knowing. So He does know what we will choose. But He still gives us the choice. Just cause He Knows what we will choose doesn't mean He is choosing for us.

It's like he's a fly on the wall. He can see what we are doing, he can be in the future, past, and present all at the same time. So time to Him doesn't exist. It only exists for us. He's just an observer of the decisions we've made. Just cause He knows...doesn't change what we are doing.

I see the Prophecy about Harry in the same way. Just cause the Prophecy says that voldemort will kill harry or vice versa does't mean that is the ONLY option, it is just saying that is how it will end up. Harry could be killed by someone else, he just won't be. Because Trewlany, in a way, was able to see what will happen in the future. Just cause she knows does not change what would or wouldn't have happend.

I have a feeling I didn't really answer the question. It makes sense in my head, but I'm not sure if I'm good at explaining it.

[Tiberius]

I have a feeling I didn't really answer the question. It makes sense in my head, but I'm not sure if I'm good at explaining it.

I'm sorry, but it makes no sense to me at all.

Yes, God is all-knowing. So He does know what we will choose. But He still gives us the choice. Just cause He Knows what we will choose doesn't mean He is choosing for us.

He may not be choosing, but if he knows, then we still don't have a choice. If he knows that I am going to have toast for breakfast tomorrow, what choice do I have? I can't have cereal, because then God would be wrong. So, I have no choice - I MUST have the toast! I will emphasize - no choice. After all, if I really did have a choice, then I could choose to eat cereal.

I see the Prophecy about Harry in the same way. Just cause the Prophecy says that voldemort will kill harry or vice versa does't mean that is the ONLY option, it is just saying that is how it will end up.

If it is DEFINATELY going to end up that way, then it can't be anything BUT the only option.

I've tried thinking about it, and I've come to this conclusion.

People want to believe that we can choose, that we have free will, because we don't like the idea that we are just puppets.

However, people believe in God. At least most people. And I mean any god, not just the Christian one. Most of these gods are supposed to be all knowing - that is, they know the future.

But, anything which can accurately foretell the future must have some way of controlling or directing the flow of events. If God knows I am going to have toast tomorrow morning, then he must guide me to eat the toast. he must direct the evetns of my life. if I have no bread, he must guide me to buy bread. And yes, he must guide me, because if he didn't, I'd just as happily eat the cereal. If there is no force (God or otherwise) guiding me to eat toast, then what I have for breakfast tomorrow is a lot more random. I reach into the cupboard and eat whatever I reach first. Without a guiding force, events happen by random chance, and it's impossible to predict a random event. All we can do is look at events that have happened before and make educated guesses about what will happen next.

However, if there is some kind of guiding force (I'll say it again, this guiding force need not be god), then how can we have free will?

Free will and predeterminisation cannot not exist at the same time. predeterminism by its very definition requires something to guide your actions. Free will cannot not exist if your actions are being guided. You cannot have both at the same time. It's like a balance beam. You can have one side down, or the other side. But you'll never get both sides to be down at the same time.

Therefore, if God is all-knowing, there can be no free will. If there is free will, then there is no all-knowing God.

[ydnam96]

Free will and predeterminisation cannot not exist at the same time. predeterminism by its very definition requires something to guide your actions. Free will cannot not exist if your actions are being guided. You cannot have both at the same time. It's like a balance beam. You can have one side down, or the other side. But you'll never get both sides to be down at the same time.

Therefore, if God is all-knowing, there can be no free will. If there is free will, then there is no all-knowing God.

wow...well I guess I can describe it like this...

Say your mom knows you REALLLLLY well. And she knows that you like toast. But she also knows that she just bought your absolute favorite cereal yesterday. Now she knows you well enough to know that given the choice between toast (which you like) and this cereal which you don't really get a lot that you will choose the cereal. Then you come down and want breakfast, and wow, you choose the cereal.

Did she decide for you?

Now. Same situation. Only your mom has a time turner that allows her to travel back and forth through time. Let's say, just for fun, that she decides to go forward in time for some random reason...and she sees you eating the cereal later that day.

Just because she saw you do it, does that mean she made you do it? What if you didn't know that she had time travelled and knew what you decided?



I know it's a hard concept. Believe me, I thought the exact way you did till one day in Philosphy class it just clicked in my head.

I TOTALLY agree with you about Predesitnation and Free Will. However, I see a difference between God being Omincient and Him choosing things for me. Free will can exist with an all knowing god. Predesitination and free will can not exist together.

But, it's just my opinion...and I totally respect that you are not being rude to me (not a lot of people will sit and listen to someone who holds a different view).

[LewsTherin]

Tiberius, the Bible says the God knows what we're going to do, but He respects us enough to allow us to make our own decisions. Now, the Bible was written from man's perspective, not God's, and thus we must apply that perspective to this discussion. From our perspective, we don't know what tommorrow, the next hour, or even the next second will bring. As I sit here, I don't know what I'm going to wear tomorrow, but God does. Does that mean I have no choice? No, because from my perspective I am making my own choices and God is allowing me to make them, even though He knows what I will choose. God does not live my life for me, nor does He make my decisions for me. I make them on my own. God would like to guide me to make the right decisions, but He leaves the actual deciding up to me.

It's like faith. People often think God requires our faith to exist. That is not true at all. God does need our faith. It's not for his benefit, but ours. In the same way, our free will is for our benefit, not His. And it gives a Christian comfort that God knows what will happen tomorrow, because it means He is in control.

[Tiberius]

Say your mom knows you REALLLLLY well. And she knows that you like toast. But she also knows that she just bought your absolute favorite cereal yesterday. Now she knows you well enough to know that given the choice between toast (which you like) and this cereal which you don't really get a lot that you will choose the cereal. Then you come down and want breakfast, and wow, you choose the cereal.

Did she decide for you?

No. But did she know for a fact? No. She just made an educated guess based on her knowledge of me. But would dhe bet her life on it, literally? I think not. After all, she couldn't guarantee that I would want cereal. She could only be very sure. However, this is completely different to God. God is more than just "very sure." He knows for a fact. And while I can believe that one can be very sure about the outcome of an evetn, you can never know for sure.

Now. Same situation. Only your mom has a time turner that allows her to travel back and forth through time. Let's say, just for fun, that she decides to go forward in time for some random reason...and she sees you eating the cereal later that day.

Just because she saw you do it, does that mean she made you do it? What if you didn't know that she had time travelled and knew what you decided?

First, I'd have to see proof that time travel as you describe it is possible. After all, if it isn't, then that question doesn't really apply to our universe, and so, whatever answer it gives you would make no sense in the context of this discussion.

Secondly, how do you know that your mother's trip to the the future won't affect that future?

Hypothetical situation...

While on the trip to the future to see what you have for breakfast, she witnesses a man outside the window have a heart attack. She calls the ambulance, but they arrive too late and the man dies. However, she takes note of the time.

When she returns from the future, she makes sure she calls the ambulance early. That way, the paramedics arrive just as the man is having the heart attack. And because they arrived much sooner than they would have otherwise, they are able to save his life.

The point of this is:

Even if you see the future, it can be changed. Mum saw the future - the man dying from a heart attack - and she was able to change it, even though she saw it with her own eyes! So, seeing the future like this is NOT predeterminism. All it is is seeing one possible future. I have shown that it can be changed. After all, if time travel was possible, then anyone could do what I have just described.

I know it's a hard concept. Believe me, I thought the exact way you did till one day in Philosphy class it just clicked in my head.

I TOTALLY agree with you about Predesitnation and Free Will. However, I see a difference between God being Omincient and Him choosing things for me. Free will can exist with an all knowing god. Predesitination and free will can not exist together.

You say free will can exist with an all knowing god. I can't see how that is at all possible. If god knows what I am going to have, then I can't choose otherwise. I must "choose" what god saw. So in what way is that a choice? How can it be a choice if I can't do anything else?

Also, a question about the last sentence in the last quote...

You have stated that an all-knowing god is different from predeterminism. I'd like to know how you can make that distinction. I would define predeterminsim as knowing for a fact what the future will bring. Doesn't an all knowing god know for a fact what the future will bring? How is that different from predeterminism? merely calling it something else when it applies to god doesn't actually make it something else.

But, it's just my opinion...and I totally respect that you are not being rude to me (not a lot of people will sit and listen to someone who holds a different view).

Are you kidding! I love discussions like this! Well thought out arguements and counter-arguements.... I can spend hours talking about stuff like this. Very rarely do i get the chance to have such intelligent discussion, and I'm not about to ruin by being rude to people. I'm just glad that the quality of posts in threads like this are so good. Believe me, I've been to a religious discussion forum site, and the quality of the posts in there was shocking! People saying, "You're stupid to believe in that!" and the like. This site is so much better!

Tiberius, the Bible says the God knows what we're going to do, but He respects us enough to allow us to make our own decisions. Now, the Bible was written from man's perspective, not God's, and thus we must apply that perspective to this discussion. From our perspective, we don't know what tommorrow, the next hour, or even the next second will bring. As I sit here, I don't know what I'm going to wear tomorrow, but God does. Does that mean I have no choice? No, because from my perspective I am making my own choices and God is allowing me to make them, even though He knows what I will choose. God does not live my life for me, nor does He make my decisions for me. I make them on my own. God would like to guide me to make the right decisions, but He leaves the actual deciding up to me.

I'm not talking about mankind's perspective. I'm talking about universal truth. Think of it from god's point of view if you like. Imagine you are god, sitting up there, watching that person known as LewsTherin. "Aha," you say. "Lews is going to wear that red shirt, tomorrow." From God's point of view, does that mean you can choose to wear the blue shirt? No, of course not. God foresaw you would wear the red shirt, so you must wear the red shirt! And if you must wear the red shirt, it isn't a choice. Therefore, I can only come to the conclusion that if God knows the future, then there is no free choice.

Also, I must ask, does this forknowledge of the future apply to God himself? If God foresaw that he would perform Action A, would he be able to do something different and perform Action B instead?

A side note...

last night I saw a documentary about the four universal forces. they are gravity, the electro-magnetic force, the strong nuclear force and the weak nuclear force. The show told how the last three of these forces apply in quantum mechanics, describing the actions of things on a level smaller than that of an atom. It also told how that, on this tiny scale, the effect of gravity plays virtually no part whatsoever. in this documentary, a scientist explained that, according to quantum theory, all you can ever get is the probability of an occurance. For example, you could look at a hydrogen atom, one electron circling one proton. You might be curious as to whether that electron is going to fly off, away from the atom, within the next hour. You have to use quantum mechanics to find out, because that's all we have to deal with events at such a small scale. But QM doesn't tell you for sure, it can only give you the probability of it happening.

The show went on to explain that in such a situation, perhaps all possible outcomes take place.granted, this is only one a level smaller than that of an atom, but it raises an interesting question in regards to this topic. Can God foretell the outcome of an event if ALL outcomes take place? How could he deal with that?

It's like faith. People often think God requires our faith to exist. That is not true at all. God does need our faith. It's not for his benefit, but ours.

Then I would say that God does not need our faith. We need our faith. And since it makes no difference to God, then, if we have faith or not, why not remove God from the picture? If we are the ones who benefit from our faith, won't we get the same benefit even if God doesn't exist? Sorry, that was lame... :p

In the same way, our free will is for our benefit, not His. And it gives a Christian comfort that God knows what will happen tomorrow, because it means He is in control.

If God is in control, how can it be me that actually makes the decision? What exactly is it that God controls?

[ydnam96]

You have stated that an all-knowing god is different from predeterminism. I'd like to know how you can make that distinction. I would define predeterminsim as knowing for a fact what the future will bring. Doesn't an all knowing god know for a fact what the future will bring? How is that different from predeterminism? merely calling it something else when it applies to god doesn't actually make it something else.

Well, that's a good question Tiberius.

It's hard for me to describe. I see Predestination as, well, God choosing for us what kind of life we lead. Some people believe that God has pre-chosen a "few" that will/are his saved. Those few were Predistined to be saved, to be His followers, to live a Christian life. That leaves the choice out of it for me. I can't choose to follow Him, to accept his gift of salvation. Cause why would I have to? He's already decided for me. I see Predestination the way you do.

I see All knowing, Omincient (sp??) as differnt. He may know that I will decide one way or another...but I am the one deciding. He is not choosing for me. He just knows what I will decide.
It's this part that I don't know how to explain. I just believe that although He knows what I'll decide even if I don't yet, I am still making the decision. Because I don't know what He knows....

Yah, I'm not thinking I'm doing a good job at laying out my beliefs. I wish I were better at explaining...

Sorry.

[LewsTherin]

But who's perspective is the important one, Tiberius? According to the Bible, it's mine. Like I said, God does not make my decisions for me, so from my perspective I have free will. God does not tell me what shirt I will wear tomorrow, as God does not really care what shirt I wear. That's a small thing of little consequence. Other, more important things, God may well tell me, like what I should study. Perspective is very important in the Bible, as Genesis makes no sense with the incorrect perspective (which would be from God's perspective) but perfect sense from the correct perspective (which is from the planet's surface looking up). So, looking at this issue from God's point of view is folly, as we will never reach concensus nor will we understand it.

But you're correct. If we look at free will from God's point of view, we have no free will. But like I said, that would be the wrong PoV.

As for Quantum Physics. Did you know that one of the consequences of Quantum Physics is the need for an observer. I once read a book where the author said the protons within muscles can regularly exist in a quantum superposition, that is, it can be in two places at one and only "chooses" a location when "observed" or "measured." He further went on to suggest that the universe could have existed in a Quantum superposition, that is, all the possibly "universes" existed at once. Only when they are observed would they collapse into one universe - ours. There was only one observer around at the time. As for how God could forsee all possible outcomes, or deal with them; there will only ever be one outcome, not many. The aforementioned proton will eventually "choose" a position. (The book is called Quantum Evolution by Jonhjoe Mcfadden, and it's not a Christian book).

Well, our faith does impress God, and in that way you can say that He wants it, rather needs it. And we can remove Him from the picture, after all, the world has been trying to do that ever since Noah's time. We can live in "Godless" bliss all our lives, and probably be entirely content (though we'll always be searching for something, something that can only be found in God). Unfortunately, that doesn't change the fact that He's there and that all of us have a very important decision to make.

As for saying that God is control, well, that's exactly true. The Bible says that "God exalts and God breaks down." How this actually works I'm not 100% sure.

[Sirius Seeker]

I find this is a very difficult topic to explain clearly. Therefore (if you can excuse the length) I would like to appeal to a more reliable source than myself. I was looking through this book last night (Back to Basics by David Hagopian) and I thought it addressed this issue nicely. Here are some of the highlights. I know this will only spark more questions, but that's what makes this fun, right?
---
To be true to the plain meaning of Scripture, I had to admit that divine sovereignty and human responsibility live together comfortably in Scripture. Scripture presents no tension between sovereignty and responsibility. It is not either divine sovereignty or human responsibility. It is both divine sovereignty and human responsibility.

Scripture constantly refers to human action that was under God's perfect control. Think for a moment about Joseph. After being reunited with his brothers who sold him into slavery, Joseph forgives them and declares: "And as for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive." Put somewhat differently, although Joseph's borthers sinned against him greviously, God's will nonetheless was fulfilled. God dod not have perfect plan A until Jeseph's brothers sinned and caused Him to switch to permissive plan B. All along, God had a single plan that encompassed the sin of Joseph's brothers without relieving them of the responsibility of their sin. God was sovereign, they were responsible.

If God fully intends that something will happen, it will happen. God's cousel will be done, and His eternal purposes will be accomplished. But this is not the only sense we can give to the phrase "the will of God." There is a sense in which the will of God can be transgressed. Every time we sin, for instance, we violate the will of God. But there is another sense in which the Scripture refers to "the will of God." This is what we call "the decretive will of God," which refers to the fact that God has decreed what will happen. When God says, "Let there be light," the darkness scatters.

To acknowledge that God's plan cannot be thwarted is not to contradict the fact that people disobey God's moral law and revealed will. Disobedience, however, cannot overthrow the counsel of God. But when we begin to contemplate how God perfectly controls disobedience, numerous questiosn come to light, perhaps the foremost of which is whether human choices are genuinely free. To that question we turn next.

In Matthew 12:33-37, Christ teaches that choices come from the heart. The will does not command the heart; the heart commands the will. Different people have different hearts, and because different hearts contain different things, people make different choices. It is like reaching into a treasure chest. You can only pull out that which is inside. Just as the arm has no power to determine the contents of the chest, so the will has no power to determine the contents of the heart. The will has power only to reveal the contents of the heart, and this it does very well.

As a result, no one is capable of making a choice contrary to his heart's strongest desire. The source of this law is found in God, whose choices proceed from His immutable and holy nature. Jesus taught us that no man can say, "Yes, I chose to do this, but my strongest desire was to do that." By definition, what we choose to do is what we want to do. We may certainly have other desires, and they may be very strong, but what we finally do is what we ultimately wanted to do most. We are therefore responsible for the choices we have made. What if we do something that we don't want to do? (ie: sister's piano recital, cook dinner, etc.) We might have a strong desire not to do those things, but some other stronger desire (you love your sister, you are hungry) takes precedence and therefore guides your decisions.

If a particular choice did not stem from our strongest desire, we would not have made it to begin with. Suppose, for example, that I offer a man a bowl of cockroaches to eat, and he declines the invitation becasue he doesn't want to eat them. Suppose further that becasue he doesn't want to eat them, I proclaim, "Ah, you will is enslaved!"
"You're crazy!" he retorts. "How can you say that my will is enslaved?"
"Becasue you didn't use you will to eat the cockroaches."
"My will," he contends, "is working perfectly well, thank you. I simply will not eat the cockroaches."
Quite true. His will chose what he wanted, and he did not want to eat the cockroaches. But suppose that he tries to refute the notion that what we want to do is what we end up doing by saying, "I don't want to eat a cockroach, but I'm going to do so anyway. So there!" Has he now made his point? Not at all. He has simply acted on the basis of his strongest desire, which is now to win the debate.

In light of what we have considered, we see that it is inaccurate to talk about free will, as though there were an autonomous thing inside of us, capable of acting in any direction, regardless of the motives of our hearts. If such a thing existed -- a creature who made choices apart from the desires of the heart -- we would not applaud it as a paragon of free will but rather would pity the collection of random, arbitrary, and insane choices. Choices made apart from the desires of the heart would be an exhibition, not of freedom, but of insanity. "Why did you throw the vase against the wall?" "Because I wanted to go for a walk."

It is far more biblical to speak of free men than of free will. A free man is someone who is free from external compulsion and is consequently at liberty to do what his heart desires. We shall refer to this kind of liberty as "natural liberty," which all men possess. It is true of liberty, and it is a gift from God. Under the superintendence of God, all men, Christian and non-Christian, have natural liberty to turn left or right, to choose chololate or vanilla -- depending entirely on what they want to do.

Notice that this natural liberty is not the same thing as freedom from sin, which we shall refer to as "moral liberty." Paul makes the distinction between natural liberty, which all men have, and moral liberty, which only believers have. Slavery to sin is true slavery. But even sin does not negate natural liberty. The slave to sin is free from righteousness, but is still not free from his own desires. When God by grace liberates him from the bondage of his own sin-loving heart, he becomes a slave to God. And as God's slave, out of a new heart, he freely follows Christ. The Christian is morally free from slavery to sin (not to be confused with never sinning again), and free to walk in righteousness because of the new decisions and desires that stem from the new heart. Therefore, a heart that wants to choose God will lead to the desire to choose God (the will to choose God). A heart that doen't want to choose God will lead to the desire to deny or refuse God (the will not to choose God).

Since the will does not determine the direction of the heart, what does? The Bible teaches that God superintends the choices made by men. If, for the sake of argument, we were to remove God's personal sovereignty from the realm of human choices, what would be left? Only a blind, inexorable, deterministic fatalism. Picture cupped hands around a guttering candle in a strong wind. This flame represents the human will. The wind is the world around us. The cupped hands belong to God. Within Christianity, the advocates of "free will" want God to remove His hands so that the candle can burn more brightly. The will simply cannot command the heart. But let us, for the sake of argument, remove God's control of the heart because some well-intentioned Christians say it is inconsistent with free will. What is then left to influence the heart? Only the material universe, and the name of that philosophy is determinism. The candle is out.

The only biblical conclusion is that man, as a creature, is free to do as he pleases, but that he has this freedom only because God grants, sustains, adn perfectly controls it.

[Tiberius]

I see Predestination as, well, God choosing for us what kind of life we lead. Some people believe that God has pre-chosen a "few" that will/are his saved. Those few were Predistined to be saved, to be His followers, to live a Christian life. That leaves the choice out of it for me. I can't choose to follow Him, to accept his gift of salvation. Cause why would I have to? He's already decided for me. I see Predestination the way you do.

I see All knowing, Omincient (sp??) as differnt. He may know that I will decide one way or another...but I am the one deciding. He is not choosing for me. He just knows what I will decide.
It's this part that I don't know how to explain. I just believe that although He knows what I'll decide even if I don't yet, I am still making the decision. Because I don't know what He knows....

I'm sorry, but I think that you don't know how to explain it because it can't be explained. You may be unaware of the outcome, but that doesn't mean you have any control over it.

Also, you said that God knows the outcome, even though you didn't specifically state that he is the one who determines the outcome. it doesn't matter by what means the choice is made. If God knows what you will do before you do it, then you must do it exactly as God saw. So you don't have a choice in the matter. So, if God foresaw it, you have no choice. It's as simple as that.

But who's perspective is the important one, Tiberius? According to the Bible, it's mine.

Is there a correct perspective? How do we determine which perspective is correct? I would propose that we should have all the information possible. Once we have that, wouldn't we have everyone's perspective? I think that there is no one perspective that is more important than any other. All perspectives are equally important.

Like I said, God does not make my decisions for me, so from my perspective I have free will. God does not tell me what shirt I will wear tomorrow, as God does not really care what shirt I wear. That's a small thing of little consequence.
Does the importance matter to God? If he can see you wearing a red shirt tomorrow, then he's seen it. He can't un-see it. And as soon as he sees that you will wear a red shirt, you have no choice - you must wear the red shirt, and it makes no difference if it's important or not.

Other, more important things, God may well tell me, like what I should study. Perspective is very important in the Bible, as Genesis makes no sense with the incorrect perspective (which would be from God's perspective) but perfect sense from the correct perspective (which is from the planet's surface looking up). So, looking at this issue from God's point of view is folly, as we will never reach concensus nor will we understand it.

Hmmm... This sounds disturbingly like you are saying that we will never understand God's mind, so we shouldn't even try. However, for me to accept that, I would have to believe that God exists in the first place. Considering that I don't believe that God exists, I hope you'll forgive me if I don't accept that reasoning... :p

But you're correct. If we look at free will from God's point of view, we have no free will. But like I said, that would be the wrong PoV.

As I said before, I think all points of view are equally important, which means that God's point of view cannot be called the "incorrect" POV. Therfore, we must accept that we have no free will.

Also, you asked me, "But who's perspective is the important one, Tiberius?" I would have to say that God's perspective is more important than yours. After all, he has access to all the information you have gained from your perspective, as well as a whole lot of other information that you don't know about. Should we discount God's perspective simply because we aren't aware of it? I can't imagine how any religious person could think that God's knoweldge is unimportant merely because he hasn't shared it with us. So, if, from God's POV, we have no free will, then we have no free will, regardless of our own perspective.

As for Quantum Physics. Did you know that one of the consequences of Quantum Physics is the need for an observer. I once read a book where the author said the protons within muscles can regularly exist in a quantum superposition, that is, it can be in two places at one and only "chooses" a location when "observed" or "measured." He further went on to suggest that the universe could have existed in a Quantum superposition, that is, all the possibly "universes" existed at once. Only when they are observed would they collapse into one universe - ours. There was only one observer around at the time. As for how God could forsee all possible outcomes, or deal with them; there will only ever be one outcome, not many. The aforementioned proton will eventually "choose" a position. (The book is called Quantum Evolution by Jonhjoe Mcfadden, and it's not a Christian book).
Now, before there was anyone around to observe these protons, they didn't exist? if there is a need for an observer, what happens when there is no observer? The theory would break down.

Well, our faith does impress God, and in that way you can say that He wants it, rather needs it. And we can remove Him from the picture, after all, the world has been trying to do that ever since Noah's time. We can live in "Godless" bliss all our lives, and probably be entirely content (though we'll always be searching for something, something that can only be found in God).
You really think atheists are searching for something? I've never noticed myself searching for a spiritual thing, and I'm an atheist. And, no offence, but I would know better than you.

Unfortunately, that doesn't change the fact that He's there and that all of us have a very important decision to make.
You say God exists as a matter of fact. Facts are provable. Your opinion that God exists is a matter of faith, and faith is not provable.

As for saying that God is control, well, that's exactly true. The Bible says that "God exalts and God breaks down." How this actually works I'm not 100% sure.

You've said that God is in control, and earlier you said that from God's persepctive we have no free will. Does this mean you agree with me? :scared:

[LewsTherin]

Is there a correct perspective? How do we determine which perspective is correct? I would propose that we should have all the information possible. Once we have that, wouldn't we have everyone's perspective? I think that there is no one perspective that is more important than any other. All perspectives are equally important.

I believe that there is a correct perspective, as indeed there must be. There must be a wrong answer and a right answer; you cannot have combination of both, that makes no sense. And I believe the Bible provides us with the correct perspective in interpreting things it deals with.


Does the importance matter to God? If he can see you wearing a red shirt tomorrow, then he's seen it. He can't un-see it. And as soon as he sees that you will wear a red shirt, you have no choice - you must wear the red shirt, and it makes no difference if it's important or not.

No, I don't know what shirt I will wear tomorrow - therefore - I maintain my free will, even though God knows what shirt I will wear. Again. Perspective. Besides, I must apologise, as that was a silly example. I'm pretty certain that God does not care what shirt you wear.


Hmmm... This sounds disturbingly like you are saying that we will never understand God's mind, so we shouldn't even try.

We won't understand God's mind. He's just too vast to comprehend. However, he allows to understand what's important, and that's his heart towards us.


As I said before, I think all points of view are equally important, which means that God's point of view cannot be called the "incorrect" POV. Therfore, we must accept that we have no free will.

Well, here we have a problem. I believe that there must be a correct PoV, whereas you don't. Looks like we'll have to agree to disagree on this. And that, obviously, ends our discussion, as I don't like wasting my time.


Also, you asked me, "But who's perspective is the important one, Tiberius?" I would have to say that God's perspective is more important than yours. After all, he has access to all the information you have gained from your perspective, as well as a whole lot of other information that you don't know about. Should we discount God's perspective simply because we aren't aware of it? I can't imagine how any religious person could think that God's knoweldge is unimportant merely because he hasn't shared it with us. So, if, from God's POV, we have no free will, then we have no free will, regardless of our own perspective.

I do not say His perspective is unimportant, quite the contrary. I'm just saying that He does not make my decisions for me and does not tell me what tomorrow will bring unless I ask, and even then will only tell me what I need to know, not what I want to know. It's like I said before: God respects me enough to allow me to make my own decisions, even though He knows what decisions I will make. Thus, He is allowing me to make my own decisions, and thus I have a free will.


You really think atheists are searching for something? I've never noticed myself searching for a spiritual thing, and I'm an atheist. And, no offence, but I would know better than you.

I was merely referring to what some older Athiests and non-believers have said.


You've said that God is in control, and earlier you said that from God's persepctive we have no free will. Does this mean you agree with me? :scared:
No, I don't agree with you. I'm saying that I'm not 100% sure how all of this works on a larger scale than only my own free will.

[Tiberius]

I believe that there is a correct perspective, as indeed there must be. There must be a wrong answer and a right answer; you cannot have combination of both, that makes no sense. And I believe the Bible provides us with the correct perspective in interpreting things it deals with.

Why must there be a right and wrong persepctive? I think there is only one truth, and different perspectives of this one truth. However, just because two people have differeing persepctives about the same thing, doesn't mean they are both wrong.

Think of the Hindenburg. Many people saw the flames come from a particular area. However, the few people on the other side of the airship saw something completely different. Does that mean the first group of people were wrong? No, of course not. the flames did come from the area they saw them come from. They just didn't have the full picture. They weren't wrong.

Imagine a cylinder with a diameter of one foot. it's also one foot high. Put it on the ground so that the circular part is flat, like a wheel on it's side.

View this cylinder from the side, and you can't see that roundness of it. You just see the straight sides, and it is the same height and width, ie, a square. View it from the top, however, and all you see is the roundness, with no straight sides whatsoever. You see a circle.

Now, if I saw it from the side only, and you saw it from the top only, I would say it was a square, and you would say it was a circle. Who's right? Who's wrong? We're a bit of both. It is a square as far as I am concerend, and it is a circle as far as you are concerned. And, if I push it sideways through a big sheet of paper, it will leave a square hole. And you can rotate it a bit and have it leave a circular hole. So, it seems we have proven that our own perspectives are correct. And, to an extent, they are. But there is more to the situation than we know, and that means we don't have the truth, the full picture.

Saying that we have free will merely because we don't see things the same way God sees them doesn't mean we have free will. it just means we think we have free will, in the same way that we think we have a square or a circle. But what we have is not the truth. And I think we must always strive for the truth.

In sumamry, I think we can have predeterminism and the illusion of free will, but we can't have true predeterminism and true free will at the same time. And I prefer only to deal in truth.

[ydnam96]

In sumamry, I think we can have predeterminism and the illusion of free will, but we can't have true predeterminism and true free will at the same time. And I prefer only to deal in truth.

I'm sorry it's been a while, I didn't run away from this discussion I just haven't been able to figure out what I want to say to comment on this.

I believe what I believe, you believe what you believe. I think we are just totally looking at things from very different perspectives. I see through a lense of faith. It's not anything I can explain, cause, well I can't. And I totally understand why people would not understand an argument that one can not conclusively prove with a scientific explination. It's just a matter of faith for me.
I don't have anything to loose for believing the way I do. So I'll leave it at that. I wish I could put it more into words though.

[Adelaide]

Here's my little rant on predestination:

I think that God has a plan for us. A plan that if we listen to Him, and follow, will make things alright. Not easy, by no means easy, but we will end up doing what we need to do. Call it predestination if you will. But, we are human. We mess up. We go away from the plan, and things are screwed up.

Maybe God sees this happening, maybe he doesn't. I don't know, I'm not God. My problem with predestination is that I find it hard to believe that a God so loving could mean, and purposely put, a starving child in Africa where
her parents have died of AIDS and she's infected as well. I just don't see God as that kind of a God.

~A

[ydnam96]

Here's my little rant on predestination:

I think that God has a plan for us. A plan that if we listen to Him, and follow, will make things alright. Not easy, by no means easy, but we will end up doing what we need to do. Call it predestination if you will. But, we are human. We mess up. We go away from the plan, and things are screwed up.

Maybe God sees this happening, maybe he doesn't. I don't know, I'm not God. My problem with predestination is that I find it hard to believe that a God so loving could mean, and purposely put, a starving child in Africa where
her parents have died of AIDS and she's infected as well. I just don't see God as that kind of a God.

~A

I agree. I can't see God as that kind of God either. And I must admit it's even hard for me sometimes to deal with sin and evil in the world. I believe, as a function of my faith, that God (because of Free Will) had to allow man (and I mean all people) to make choices. Man choose sin. Therefor pain, suffering, evil, heartache, hunger, death...all that stuff came into the world. (think Paradise Lost) I think that God hurts when he sees the children in Africa, the US, all over the world but because he gave us the gift of free will he won't/can't (cause it would go against his nature) step in and change the decisions/outcomes of the choices we make.

If that makes sense.

[Ethveg]

Just a reminder: if ANY part of Christian doctrine is directly from G-d it is probably what is contained in scriptures (which is undoubtedly why some editions of the New Testament put the words Jesus is reported to have spoken in red): in Judaism the first 5 books of what Christians call "The Old Testament" are said to have been given by G-d, in their entirety, to Moses on Sinai.

But much DOCTRINE has come from the HUMANS who were in charge of "the church," not from scripture. I've read in several places that for the first four centuries The Church taught reincarnation; this policy was reversed as the result of a decision that telling people that they would "get another chance" would keep them from "doing their best" (to follow the rules of The Church) this time around. And the proscription on birth control - based on a single passage about not "spilling [your] seed upon the ground" (as Onan did) - was originally instituted to increase the number of Christians (since such "spilling" was the only "birth control" method available at that time), a profitable decision by The Church, since believers were required to tithe (give one-tenth of their income to the church. ) Similarly, Jesus' mother, Mary, was not worshipped for the first several centuries - I don't recall the rationale for that change, but even today it creates a rift between Catholocism and many other Christian denominations.

And one of the things Jesus is reputed to have said is "Many will come in my name but they will not be me." We certainly (especially in America today) hear many people end their prayers with "In Jesus' name"; who COMES in the name of the Christ? An obvious answer to me is ... those who call themselves "CHRISTians."

What I have been wanting to say for some time is this: look at all the different religions we humans have. If we could somehow erase every adult''s past and show everyone all the rellgions there are out there and let them pick the one that they believed most, that made the most sense to them, how many people do you think would pick exactly the same one they were raised with? The laws of probability imply that it would not be nearly as large a number as the number of adults who currently believe that the faith they were raised in is THE right one.

And this leads me to question the RATIONALITY of the beliefs of anyone who claims that the religion s/he grew up in is THE right one. If no one had ever told a child that there was no Santa Clause, wouldn't we all still believe in that story too?

As I read someplace, I'd be very surprised if it turned out that any single religion we currently know of had it all EXACTLY right (my apologies to U.S.A. Republicans.)

Just a reminder: if ANY part of Christian doctrine is directly from G-d it is probably what is contained in scriptures (which is undoubtedly why some editions of the New Testament put the words Jesus is reported to have spoken in red): in Judaism the first 5 books of what Christians call "The Old Testament" are said to have been given by G-d, in their entirety, to Moses on Sinai.

But much DOCTRINE has come from the HUMANS who were in charge of "the church," not from scripture. I've read in several places that for the first four centuries The Church taught reincarnation; this policy was reversed as the result of a decision that telling people that they would "get another chance" would keep them from "doing their best" (to follow the rules of The Church) this time around. And the proscription on birth control - based on a single passage about not "spilling [your] seed upon the ground" (as Onan did) - was originally instituted to increase the number of Christians (since such "spilling" was the only "birth control" method available at that time), a profitable decision by The Church, since believers were required to tithe (give one-tenth of their income to the church. ) Similarly, Jesus' mother, Mary, was not worshipped for the first several centuries - I don't recall the rationale for that change, but even today it creates a rift between Catholocism and many other Christian denominations.

And one of the things Jesus is reputed to have said is "Many will come in my name but they will not be me." We certainly (especially in America today) hear many people end their prayers with "In Jesus' name"; who COMES in the name of the Christ? An obvious answer to me is ... those who call themselves "CHRISTians."

What I have been wanting to say for some time is this: look at all the different religions we humans have. If we could somehow erase every adult''s past and show everyone all the rellgions there are out there and let them pick the one that they believed most, that made the most sense to them, how many people do you think would pick exactly the same one they were raised with? The laws of probability imply that it would not be nearly as large a number as the number of adults who currently believe that the faith they were raised in is THE right one.

And this leads me to question the RATIONALITY of the beliefs of anyone who claims that the religion s/he grew up in is THE right one. If no one had ever told a child that there was no Santa Claus, wouldn't we all still believe in that story too?

As I read someplace, I'd be very surprised if it turned out that any single religion we currently know of had it all EXACTLY right (my apologies to U.S.A. Republicans.)

[Benzo]

My gifted child tried a theory a few days ago. Since space has supposedly a minimum of 3 dimensions, since space and time go together, for him time has also three dimensions. Therefore we are moving in a 3D time and 3D space and the corelation of those two 'spaces' could bring us to face static events. His theory includes a mix of predestination: events are there but it is our free will that will decide if we willl face them at a certain time or never.

[Wandering Bard]

If God is omniscient then time is linear: since God knows the course of time then events must already have been laid out.

Therefore there is only one path which we can take: any perceived choice which leads off the path is a dead end. So if God is omniscient then there is no free will.

Of course, as an atheist, this problem doesn't concern me.

[ydnam96]

Hmmm...see I don't see the fact that God is omniscient stipulating that time is linear. I can't even begin to uderstand the concept of time, I'm not gonna try and pretend I do. But I think that we've come up with the concept of time to try and explain the world we live in...

That being said.

I think the very nature of God presupposes that there are things about Him that I can't explain. He knows all, but that doesn't mean he chooses for me. I just accept that. God can know about what happens in the future if time is linear or circular or looks like a trapazoid because he is God.

just my opinon.

[Wandering Bard]

If God is omnisicent, then that means that God already knows the past, present and future. Therefore, the course of events has already been set out and nobody can influence it: meaning that there is no free will.

[Spike]

Actually the whole foundation of christianity is free will. Sin doesn't exist without choice. You have to be a free moral agent to committ a sin. This is why if you shoot someone and kill them we arrest you not the gun. The gun is just a tool in your hand. If pre-destination is real then we are nothing but puppets. We are robots programmed to do whatever He wants. A program can't sin only the programmer can sin.

From a christian perspective Free Will is the only way to validate their religion. God can't be good and force people to go to hell. Free Will means they chose to go to hell. Pre-Destination would say that God created people with the intent of sending them to fiery torment for no more a reason than He simply willed it.