U - Pete Rose and the Baseball Hall of Fame

[hermy_weasley2]

I searched, but my searching skills aren't always that great. Do whatever you have to do of course mods.

Pete Rose has not been allowed in the Baseball Hall of Fame in the past, because he was caught betting on baseball. He has recently apologized for his actions on Jan. 4, 2004. I haven't looked at everything conerning this, so if you have anything to add, please do so. My questions are:

Why do you think he apologized?

Should anything concerning his honors in the Hall of Fame or anything else change because of his apology?


If so, what should change and why?

If not, why not?

[jimmalec]

Well, he apologized becasue his window for returning to the hall is closing. The baseball writers can only elect members up to 20 years after their retirment. After that date, it's up to hall members, many of whom are ot supportive of entering baseball's most sacred shrine.

Personally I think Pete rose is a slime ball - but he was also one of, if not, the greatest player to ever step on a baseball diamond. Although I agree that he disgraced the game, he deserves to be in the hall. As far as reinstatment goes... well I don't think he should be. Put his name on a plaque, but don't let him manage again.

[Field]

Pete Rose should never even have been considered. Gambeling your team away shows absolutely no respect for the sport AT ALL. WHen asked why he did it " I didn't think id get caught". What the heck is he thinking? Yes he was a great baseball player when it came to skill, not respect.

[jimmalec]

In all fairness he didn't gamble against his team

[Bhodi]

In all fairness he didn't gamble against his team

Of course, none of us really knows that, do we? He originally said he didn't bet on baseball... Then he said he bet on baseball, but never on Reds games... Now he admits to betting on the Reds, but never to lose... You see where this pattern logically leads, don't you?

Bottom line -- betting on baseball is against the rules... Pete Rose knew that, yet still did it... And now, many years after the fact, after agreeing to a lifelong ban from the game to avoid making a public admission of guilt, he wants us to believe that this 'mea culpa' is not only sincere, but the absolute, end all truth of the matter... Sorry, but I don't buy it...

If he now admits he bet on the Reds, I think it stands to reason that he did, indeed, bet on them to lose on at least one occasion... Rose broke a rule that everyone in the game has understood quite clearly ever since the Chicago Black Sox scandal... He knew better...

So, to sum it up:
1. He knowingly broke the rules, then
2. willingly lied about it for years to avoid the embarrassment a public admission would bring with it, then
3. gets his panties in a wad over a lifetime ban that he agreed to in order to avoid said public admission, and
4. now makes this 'too little too late' confession at a somewhat strategic, eleventh hour time (with regard to his potential for being voted into the HoF in the standard manner, as jimmalec points out)...

He broke the rules... He bet on baseball, including games in which his team was playing... He accepted the lifelong ban... End of story...

Call me crazy, but I don't believe that lifelong is a difficult concept to comprehend... Does 'Charlie Hustle' belong in the HoF? IMHO, he does... But, were it up to me, I'd wait until his lifelong ban from baseball is fully served (i.e., I'd wait until he passes on to the 'Field of Dreams' in the sky) before voting him in... Rose disgraced himself, his team, and the game, so he needs to swallow the bitter pill of the punishment he agreed to (I don't think that point can be stressed enough) and live with the fact that he will not enjoy the satisfaction of being associated with MLB in any manner (either as a manager or a HoF honoree) during the remainder of his lifetime...

Of course, as you can see, I don't really have that strong of an opinion on this matter... ;)

[Kaonashi]

Yes, he's a liar and has deep-rooted gambling problems but that doesn't take a way the fact that he made all of those hits. there isn't a moral clause for appearing in the Baseball Hall of Fame. At the same time he should not be rewarded by his disgraceful behaviour. So I also think that he should be included AFTER his death so he in no way profits from it.

[Hagrid442]

Pete Rose should be in the HoF as a player. 4,256 hits. Enough said. The guy second in line is Ty Cobb, and he wasn't exactly a model citizen. I think eligibility into the Hall should depend more on someone's performance, than what type of person they are.

That said, keep him far, far, far away from any baseball-related job. I've thought this before his "mea culpa", but his botched attempt at confession has really soured me on him. He's capitalizing on confessing his sins! I believe a real confession is one where there isn't any profit is involved. I could be wrong. Or just old-fashioned.

I've also always figured that if Rose got into the HoF, that it would be posthumously. That would be punishment enough for what he did, not giving him the satisfaction of seeing himself receive a plaque. At the same time, a very deserving player (if not the man) gets into the Hall of Fame.

[Bhodi]

Pete Rose should be in the HoF as a player. 4,256 hits. Enough said. The guy second in line is Ty Cobb, and he wasn't exactly a model citizen. I think eligibility into the Hall should depend more on someone's performance, than what type of person they are...

At the same time, a very deserving player (if not the man) gets into the Hall of Fame.

If this is true, then why isn't "Shoeless" Joe Jackson in the HoF? Though one of the eight Chicago "Black" Sox players accused of taking money in the scandal to throw the 1919 World Series, Jackson's statistics seem to clearly indicate that he played to win (though he admitted to taking the money)... Arguably one of the best players in baseball's history (some would argue the best or most gifted ever), Jackson was banned for life with the other seven, much like Rose...

Of course, Jackson actually showed remorse for accepting the money (which, again, he admitted, though maintaining that he played to win, which his batting and fielding statistics for the series seem to bear out)... To illustrate this critical difference between Jackson and Rose, Ty Cobb once told a story about how he ran into "Shoeless" Joe years after the 1919 World Series working at a grocery store bagging groceries... Cobb recognized him right away, but Jackson didn't say a word or seem to indicate that he knew Cobb at all... So Cobb said something to the effect of "Joe... Don't you recognize me?" Jackson said he did, but didn't think that Cobb would want to talk to someone like him... Now, that's remorse...

What has Rose done? Other than lying for 14 years, he's shown utter contempt -- for the game, its rules and its fans... Plus, he's trying to profit from his current situation (through his book release), and, unlike other past professional athletes who have made big mistakes, apologized and atoned for them, learned from them, and used their experience to help others with similar problems (be it drug addiction, alcoholism, etc.), Rose continues to gamble (although, he claims, not on baseball... But, of course, we all know how forthright and honest he's been up to now, don't we?)...

I'll add an addendum to my earlier opinion, because I still agree with you that Pete Rose the player ultimately belongs in the Baseball HoF... Were it up to me, two conditions would have to be satisfied for Rose to be let in:

Condition #1 -- he must serve his lifelong ban... Thus, as long as he is alive, Rose is ineligible for entry into the HoF...

Condition #2 -- before Rose is posthumously voted into the HoF, "Shoeless" Joe must be let in... If "Shoeless" Joe isn't in the HoF, "Charlie Hustle" is ineligible to be let in...

That's just the way I see it, FWIW (and my opinion on this issue and a dollar might get you a cup of coffee)... But, again, I clearly don't have a strong opinion on this matter... ;)

[Hagrid442]

"Shoeless" Joe Jackson must be inducted as well, no arguments. :) Field of Dreams is probably the best baseball-themed movie, and I'm a White Sox fan.

Your propositions seem quite sound. :)

[Bhodi]

Field of Dreams is probably the best baseball-themed movie, and I'm a White Sox fan.

One of my favorite movies (along with "The Natural")... No matter how many times I watch it, my eyes always well up with tears at the end... My wife finds this touching, yet also annoying (since TBS seems to run the movie every few months -- "Are you watching that again? Wasn't it just on last week or something?")...

I haven't been able to follow baseball since the player strike in the early 1980s... As a kid, I loved following the game... Then, free agency came along...

[Yellowhead]

One major league commentator (I forgot which one) put the Pete Rose situation into an interesting context. Pete Rose had an amazing playing career with no evidence of any wrongdoing. His gambling problem surfaced in his managerial career. The commentator likened this to the difference between graduate school and undergraduate school. Just as it would be unfair to take away one's undergraduate degree for failing graduate school, it is unfair to deprive a player who's stats excede the average hall of famer in nearly every category the right to be in the Hall of Fame for something that happened after their playing career. However, unlike the Hall of Fame for professional football, baseball makes no distinction between playing, managing, umpiring, etc. Hall of Fame status is lumped into a single career. If it were like the football hall of fame, where several active coaches have been hall of famers as players and then later as coaches after retirement, Rose could be inducted as a player and barred as a manager. As for Shoeless Joe Jackson and the rest of the "Black Sox", the difference between them and Rose is when their violations occured. The Black Sox' violations occured in games, during their playing careers. Therefore they should not be in the Hall as players. Rose, however, never violated a major rule as a player and should be eligible as a player. He should not be eligible as a manager, however, due to his gambling and the effects it had on major league baseball, Rose should never be allowed in the Hall of Fame as a manager or be allowed to return to managing in any capacity. He proved himself as a player, but failed to do so as a manager.

[Zachary1993]

I searched, but my searching skills aren't always that great. Do whatever you have to do of course mods.

Pete Rose has not been allowed in the Baseball Hall of Fame in the past, because he was caught betting on baseball. He has recently apologized for his actions on Jan. 4, 2004. I haven't looked at everything conerning this, so if you have anything to add, please do so. My questions are:

Why do you think he apologized?

Should anything concerning his honors in the Hall of Fame or anything else change because of his apology?


If so, what should change and why?

If not, why not?
He should be in the Hall of Fame he worked hard and so he was caught betting on baseball. Unless he made a bet that would help him get in and he did it unfairly he should be allowed in the Hall of Fame.

[DrummerboyDT]

Let him get in the Hall of Fame. My hometown is Cincinnati! The Bengals, despite this year, have embarrassed us for so long!

[Bhodi]

As for Shoeless Joe Jackson and the rest of the "Black Sox", the difference between them and Rose is when their violations occured. The Black Sox' violations occured in games, during their playing careers. Therefore they should not be in the Hall as players. Rose, however, never violated a major rule as a player and should be eligible as a player. He should not be eligible as a manager, however, due to his gambling and the effects it had on major league baseball, Rose should never be allowed in the Hall of Fame as a manager or be allowed to return to managing in any capacity. He proved himself as a player, but failed to do so as a manager.

Of course, as you stated, the Baseball HoF doesn't make a distinction between your playing and managing career -- they lump it all together... So it doesn't matter when Rose's little indiscretion occurred... Baseball essentially views what Rose did in much the same manner as the 'Black Sox', which is why the punishment was the same for both -- banishment...

Furthermore, I would argue that in the case of Shoeless Joe there are two other big differences... (1) The available data/evidence seems to clearly illustrate that, although he took money, he brought his "A" game to the series (i.e., he played to win)... This is important to consider, because you have to remember the historical context -- baseball players weren't payed much in the early 1900s (there was no such thing as 'free agency' then), which is why oldtimers often wax poetic about the days of yore in which players loved the game, played for a modest salary during the season, then picked up jobs in mills, factories, shipyards, etc. during the off-season (like Moonlight Graham's ghostly young character says in Field of Dreams -- something to the effect of, 'I hear they help you find work during the off-season'...)...

(2) Shoeless Joe appears to have actually shown remorse for his mistake... This is important, and simply cannot be overemphasized in Rose's situation... Rose hasn't shown one shred of remorse... Rather, he takes the attitude that he's owed something, and he comes off like some spoiled, bratty little child who plans to kick and scream until he gets his way... Frankly, if I were the Commissioner, I'd sit down with Rose and say, "Pete... I believe that the Charlie Hustle we all knew and loved belongs in the HoF, and I believe that one day he will get there... But, I'm sorry to say that you won't be alive to see it... So it's time for you to do the right thing, for yourself and the game, and just shut up about this issue from here on out... Because the only thing you accomplish whenever you bring it up is to make yourself look worse...

I stand by my proposal, and think it is a fair compromise... Tell Rose that one day he will, indeed, be inducted into the Hall, but not until his lifetime ban has been served (i.e., not while he's alive)... And, for the love of the game, put Shoeless Joe where he belongs -- in the Hall!

[Hagrid442]

:tu: Bhodi

I agree 100%

To not have Shoeless Joe in the HoF demeans the man, and the Hall itself.

And Rose should be in, because above all else his performance as a player demands it. Posthumously of course.

[accioinsight7]

The bottom line is that Pete Rose is one of the greatest players to ever play the game. He has the record for most career hits. His nickname was "Charlie Hustle" and you don't get that nickname for being a slimeball. The last I had heard, Commisioner Bud Selig said the only way Rose's induction would be considered was if he apologized...Of course this is why he apologized, so that he could be inducted. Most of Pete Rose's peers agree that he belongs in Cooperstown, and considering the state of ethics in professional athletics, and the fact that known and/or accused steroid users (Barry Bonds) will one day be inducted into the Hall, Rose's offense seems to be fairly minor. By no means was he right in doing what he did, and I'm not dwarfing his offense, but the fact remains that he was the best hitter of a generation, and it stands to be considered that he be inducted. Isn't there some statute of limitations for his particular offense, and to me, him apologizing shows me what is more important. He took his baseball career and achievements and the baseball Hall of Fame over his pride in believing he did nothing wrong. Selig got what he wanted, so should Rose.

[starutena]

I agree that Pete Rose's stats alone would merit introduction into the Hall of Fame. But- He denied for years that he bet on baseball, and when he did come clean it was to sell his book and make money. He alienated all of his supporters by going for the quick buck.

I believe that the lifelong ban should be just that, lifelong. Reinstatement would send the wrong message concerning his rulebreaking. He can be let in, but only after his death. I doubt that any commisioner will allow him in before that.

[accioinsight7]

Hey!!! Did anyone see ESPN has a movie about Pete coming out? It is called Hustle, but I missed the premiere date (on network television, ESPN)
Oh and just for the record, He should be in as a player as his hits and hustle suggest, but certainly not as a manager (not that anyone is suggesting this)
I have learned my entire way of playing the game, besides maybe when I'm on the mound, by the way Rose played. When I first saw him crash the catcher in the All-Star game, I didn't understand the circumstances, or what All-Star games actually meant to players...all I knew is that the guy loved baseball.

[Spike]

Ty Cobb who was a racist and an all around bad guy made it. It is the baseball hall of fame not the nice people hall of fame. Pete Rose is one of the best players ever and should be there no doubt.

[Ranador]

He apologized cause he saw they weren't letting up and he couldn't get in otherwise.

[Bigal_mc2003]

I feel that he should be allowed into the hall for what he did as a player. What he did as a manager should have nothing to do with him being put into the hall as a player. And I also disagree with the fact that what he[/I] did (betting on baseball) gave baseball a black eye. What I think disgraced the game beyond repair was the fact that the players have gone on strike or threatened to go on strike multiple times, since the Pete Rose incidince began, because they weren't making enough money. They are the highest paid athletes in all of professional sports! That's why i'll never watch baseball, major league anyway.

[Spike]

I feel that he should be allowed into the hall for what he did as a player. What he did as a manager should have nothing to do with him being put into the hall as a player. And I also disagree with the fact that what he[/I] did (betting on baseball) gave baseball a black eye. What I think disgraced the game beyond repair was the fact that the players have gone on strike or threatened to go on strike multiple times, since the Pete Rose incidince began, because they weren't making enough money. They are the highest paid athletes in all of professional sports! That's why i'll never watch baseball, major league anyway.


Exactly. Pete Rose didn't ruin baseball. He was called Charlie Hustle. He always gave all he had.....we can only hope for that with today's crop of players.

[accioinsight7]

Oh, I just got a date for the movie Hustle on ESPN: September 25th, I think at 7pm CT.