CoSForums Archive - M-13 - Violence in Spain

AllanTheGreat

March 11th, 2004, 11:25 pm

I found the complete article:

Terror blasts kill at least 192 in Spain

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By MAR ROMAN
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Associated Press
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MADRID, Spain - A series of bombs hidden in backpacks exploded in quick succession Thursday, blowing apart four commuter trains and killing at least 192 people and wounding 1,200. Spain blamed Basque separatists but a shadowy group claimed responsibility in the name of al-Qaida for the worst terrorist attack in Spanish history.
Panicked commuters trampled on each other, abandoning their bags and shoes, after two of the bombs went off in one train in the Atocha station in the heart of Madrid. Train cars were turned into twisted wrecks and platforms were strewn with corpses. Cell phones rang unanswered on the bodies of the dead as frantic relatives tried to call them.

"March 11, 2004, now holds its place in the history of infamy," Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar said.

The bombing came three days ahead of Spain's general election on Sunday. A major campaign issue was how to deal with ETA, the Basque militant group.

Campaigning for the election was called off and three days of mourning were declared.

It was also exactly 2 1/2 years after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks in the United States, and was Europe's worst since the 1988 bombing of a Pan Am jetliner over Lockerbie, Scotland, that killed 270 people.

The 10 backpack bombs exploded in a 15-minute span, starting about 7:39 a.m., on trains along nine miles of commuter line from Santa Eugenia to the Atocha terminal, a bustling hub for subway, commuter and long-distance trains just south of the famed Prado Museum. Police also found and detonated three other bombs.

"An act of barbaric terrorism has engulfed Spain with profound pain, repulsion and anger," King Juan Carlos said on national television.

Worst hit was a double-decker train at El Pozo station, where two bombs killed 70 people, fire department inspector Juan Redondo said. One corpse was blown onto the roof.

At the Santa Eugenia station, "there was one carriage totally blown apart. People were scattered all over the platforms. I saw legs and arms. I won't forget this ever. I've seen horror," said Enrique Sanchez, an ambulance worker.

Forty coroners worked to identify remains, the national news agency Efe said, and a steady stream of taxis carried relatives to a sprawling convention center that was turned into a makeshift morgue.

Three days of national mourning were declared and thousands of people took part in spontaneous anti-terror rallies across the country Thursday. The government called for nationwide anti-ETA demonstrations on Friday evening, and millions were expected.

Who carried out the highly coordinated attack was a mystery. The government put the Basque separatist group ETA at the top of its list of suspects, although a shadowy group claimed responsibility in the name of al-Qaida.

The Arabic newspaper Al-Quds al-Arabi said it had received a claim of responsibility issued in the name of al-Qaida. The e-mail claim, signed by the shadowy Brigade of Abu Hafs al-Masri, was received at the newspaper's London offices and said the brigade's "death squad" had penetrated "one of the pillars of the crusade alliance, Spain."

"This is part of settling old accounts with Spain, the crusader, and America's ally in its war against Islam," the claim said.

Spain had backed the U.S.-led war on Iraq despite domestic opposition, and many al-Qaida-linked terrorists have been captured in Spain or were believed to have operated from there.

Spain's government is studying the reported al-Qaida claim but still believes ETA is more likely responsible, a senior official in Aznar's office said.

Spain's security forces were not ruling out "any line of investigation," Interior Minister Angel Acebes said.

The United States believes Al-Masri sometimes falsely claims to be acting on behalf of al-Qaida. The group took credit for blackouts in the United States and London last year.

A U.S. counterterrorism official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said it was too early to determine who was responsible. The official noted that al-Qaida usually does not take responsibility for attacks.

If the attack was carried out by ETA, it could signal a radical and lethal change of strategy for the group that has largely targeted police and politicians in its decades-long fight for a separate Basque homeland.

But after police found a stolen van with seven detonators and the Arabic-language tape parked in a suburb near where the stricken trains originated, Acebes said: "I have just given instructions to the security forces not to rule out any line of investigation."

A top Basque politician, Arnold Otegi, denied ETA was behind the blasts and blamed "Arab resistance," noting Spain's support for the Iraq war.

The government said ETA had tried a similar attack on Christmas Eve, placing bombs on two trains bound for a Madrid station that was not hit Thursday.

"ETA had been looking for a massacre," said Acebes, the interior minister. "Unfortunately, today it achieved its goal."

The Interior Ministry said tests showed the explosives used in the attacks were a kind of dynamite normally used by ETA.

The bombers used titadine, a kind of compressed dynamite also found in a bomb-laden van intercepted last month as it headed for Madrid, a source at Aznar's office said, speaking on condition of anonymity. Officials blamed ETA then, too.

In a break with past ETA tactics, there were multiple attacks and no advance warning. ETA has usually gone after one target at a time and the largest casualty toll was 21 killed in 1987.

ETA has claimed responsibility for more than 800 deaths since 1968.

Sympathy poured in from capitals worldwide, led by Spain's partners in the 15-nation European Union, and neighboring France raised its terror alert level. In Athens, security also was tightened at train stations and the Spanish Embassy, although overall plans for the Aug. 13-29 Olympics will not change, officials said.

The United States, Britain and Russia said the attacks demonstrated the need for toughened resolve against terrorists.

President Bush called Aznar and Juan Carlos, saying he expressed "our country's deepest sympathies toward those who lost their life.

"I told them we weep with the families. We stand strong with the people of Spain," he said.

Aznar was a staunch supporter of U.S.-led war that ousted Saddam Hussein and Spain sent 1,300 troops to Iraq.

Aznar, who himself survived an ETA car bombing in 1995, will step down when a new government is formed after the elections.

Revulsion over the attack could benefit Aznar's ruling conservative Popular Party because of its hard-line stance against ETA.

Both the Popular Party and the opposition Socialists ruled out talks with ETA during the campaign.

"No negotiation is possible or desirable with these assassins who so many times have sown death all around Spain," Aznar said.

The Socialists came in for withering criticism during the campaign because a politician linked to the Socialist-run government in the Catalonia region, which also has separatist sentiment, admitted meeting with ETA members in France in January. The Socialists were lambasted as allegedly undermining Spain's fight against ETA.

The group - Euskadi ta Askatasuna, or Basque Homeland and Freedom - is believed by police to number perhaps only several dozen hard-core militants who are supported by a wider group of Basque nationalists.

The government had recently expressed cautious optimism that ETA was near defeat after mass arrests, seizures of weapons and explosives, increased cooperation from France and the banning of ETA's purported political front. The number of people killed in ETA attacks dropped to three last year.
Imagine knowing that some of your loved persons were on one of those trains, and you still are trying to reach them to their cell phones, and the cell phones lie ringing on the floor... :upset: That's one of my worst nightmares...

hesdead-dealwithit

March 11th, 2004, 11:52 pm

this is the worst and silly act of terrorism I have ever seen...
Silly? Terrorism isn't silly. It's cold-blooded murder. Al Qaida, the IRA, ETA, Hamas, Hizbullah, Islamic Jihad, Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade - they are all the same.

Emma

March 12th, 2004, 12:19 am

I will not submit my reply...I could be banned from the forums for it...

Let's just say I'm seeker of peace.

hesdead-dealwithit

March 12th, 2004, 12:22 am

I don't like pacifism, but you won't be banned from the boards for expressing it.

At least I hope not. *scared*

The Arabic newspaper Al-Quds al-Arabi said it had received a claim of responsibility issued in the name of al-Qaida. The e-mail claim, signed by the shadowy Brigade of Abu Hafs al-Masri, was received at the newspaper's London offices and said the brigade's "death squad" had penetrated "one of the pillars of the crusade alliance, Spain."

"This is part of settling old accounts with Spain, the crusader, and America's ally in its war against Islam," the claim said.
If almost 200 people didn't die, this would be laughable - Spain was the one country that didn't join in the crusades. Why? Because it was fighting off the Muslims invaders on its own homeland.

Masterfroggy

March 12th, 2004, 12:30 am

I don't like pacifism, but you won't be banned from the boards for expressing it.

At least I hope not. *scared*

If almost 200 people didn't die, this would be laughable - Spain was the one country that didn't join in the crusades. Why? Because it was fighting off the Muslims invaders on its own homeland.

I agree as some very famous person said "The truth (I am afraid) is the first causality of war,"

lxs234

March 12th, 2004, 12:47 am

This is horrible... It's almost like 9/11 all over again. I remember how scary that was. I didn't know if people I knew were killed or not.
I am just praying they don't blow up any trains here in the United States, or anywhere else. We Americans are still getting over September 11, and we don't need more to get upset over...
God, why can't Al-Qaida just go away? I think that the world has developed so much, and we have so much new technology that wars should really be a thing of the past.
I am so glad we are trying to destroy terrorists. They need to grow up.

Masterfroggy

March 12th, 2004, 1:18 am

tizzy weasley

March 12th, 2004, 1:47 am

Sadly it’s nothing like 9/11, because unlike 9/11, in the USA, Europeans have suffered acts like this for nearly a 100 years (in the UK it goes back to the Irish troubles, in Spain it goes back to the end of the last war, 9/11 was the first foreign act of Terror ever perpetrated on the home soil of the USA, but I grew up with the threat of terrorism all around me, I have lost friends to bomb blasts and bullets,

We have to move forward towards finding a solution that works for all sides, and learn about what is really going on, and not just what the sound bite merchants on the six o’clock news want us to hear.
For every terrorist you kill with hate, there will be three to take his (or her) place, finding a solution is harder but more long lasting.

I've actually heard that this is the 9/11 of Spain.

I've been keeping my eye on the story all night. It was not official that ETA has claimed responsibility,nor Al Quada. It is suspected that they had another terrorist group do the work. But nothing really has come out yet. I'm guessing it won't be coming out for the next few days.

I found out during my Spanish class. This is pretty bad. The pictures on CNN are very graphic. This was said to be the worst (I think) terrorist act in Spain's history.

hermy_weasley2

March 12th, 2004, 2:00 am

9/11 was the first foreign act of Terror ever perpetrated on the home soil of the USA, but I grew up with the threat of terrorism all around me, I have lost friends to bomb blasts and bullets,

It wasn't the first foreign act of terror on the U.S. homeland. Wasn't the first attack on the WTC a foreign attack as well? Anyways, whether it's attacks from foriegn sources or terrorists or not; violence is violence and, sadly, every country has seen its share of that.

The recent terrorism in Spain is another sick example of violence, and violence will never be gone completely. We're just going to have to face that. I think it's over estimating the human race to say that we'll ever all be able to get along.

Hagrid442

March 12th, 2004, 2:01 am

All I can do or say is may God or who/whatever look after the victims, their families, and their friends, and the country of Spain.

Masterfroggy

March 12th, 2004, 2:28 am

It wasn't the first foreign act of terror on the U.S. homeland. Wasn't the first attack on the WTC a foreign attack as well? Anyways, whether it's attacks from foriegn sources or terrorists or not; violence is violence and, sadly, every country has seen its share of that.

The recent terrorism in Spain is another sick example of violence, and violence will never be gone completely. We're just going to have to face that. I think it's over estimating the human race to say that we'll ever all be able to get along.

In political terms I think that you might be right, the first attack on the World trade centre was the first, but the man charged was I understood to be an American born Palestinian sympathiser funded by unknown people, admittedly he used so many false identities that we will never know for sure weather he was, as he claimed Palestinian or American born as some government investigators believe, but I stand corrected

rotsiepots

March 12th, 2004, 9:35 am

I believe someone (possibly Jose-Maria Aznar, but I couldn't be certain) just said that all indications are that ETA are behind the attacks. A group tied to Al Qaeda has already claimed responsibility though, so it's all rather up in the air at the moment. I think it's vaguely coincidental that the Spanish federal elections were supposed to be held this weekend, so this may very well be the case.

It's all very sad, anyway.

FlyingPhoenix

March 12th, 2004, 9:52 am

Tane

March 12th, 2004, 10:22 am

Well the problem with spain is that people think directly it were the ETA but I for once doubt it highly and now in the news they don't say it anymore. They have stopped to say it was the ETA now they kept saying in London by a british moslem newspaper the Al-Qaeda did state they were it. If this is the truth spain and all other countrys in europe who did support the US and the anti-terrorism act have a problem. Because they stated in the news too that the next attack is to 90% ready to happen.

If you think about it the 9/11 was planned not from people of afganistan. No they were years in Germany before they went to US. Just imagine this were trains, just trains what could they do to a concert or anything like that. I don't want think about it because its seems the attack was mean to attack the normal guy, people who just work and don't rule the country.

I think its different the the WTC in New York which was a symbole for the west economic. The attack on trains is an attack against normal citizen against our life. I think even if the 9/11 was more terrible that the attack in spain will have a bigger impact in the thinking of those people who do that.
Which news center stated that they had heard of a possible further attack? That is scare mongering and their using intimidation techniques as well to get everyone tense. I know security is sky high in my city because we have an international conference headed by Tony Blair occur over the weekend. There upping the security after what has just happened and because there are two other major events coinciding with it.

So to here about another possible attack that is 90% nearly completely nerves me somewhat.

FlyingPhoenix

March 12th, 2004, 10:35 am

So to here about another possible attack that is 90% nearly completely nerves me somewhat.

I quiet agree it nerves and I don't like that either that they say such things in TV-News. Now they stated this at RTL thats I believe the biggest europe station and well usually pretty professional with such things. I'll look that up on the net-site of them though its all german cause its a german-station.

So I gonna to quote I know you won't understand but I'll translate, at least I try.

n den Vereinigten Staaten wächst die Angst vor einem neuen Anschlag ungeahnter Größenordnung, nachdem die Bin-Laden-Terrorgruppe El Kaida angeblich eine recht konkrete Drohung veröffentlich hat. Die Moslemextremisten haben nach Darstellung der in London erscheinenden arabischen Zeitung 'El Kuds El Arabi’ eine Attacke in den USA angekündigt. "Der erwartete Schlag gegen Amerika ist jetzt in seiner Schlussphase - zu 90 Prozent fertig - und kommt bald, so Gott will", heiße es in dem Bekennerschreiben zu den Anschlägen in Madrid, das der Zeitung unmittelbar nach dem Blutbad in Madrid zugegangen sei. Der Chefredakteur der Zeitung, Abdelbari Atwan, sagte, er halte das Schreiben Worten für echt.

Der geplante Terrorschlag werde als 'Operation Winde des scharzen Todes' bezeichnet. Darin werden Moslems aufgefordert, sich "zivilen oder militärischen Einrichtungen der Kreuzfahrer Amerika und seiner Verbündeten" nicht zu sehr zu nähern. In der Botschaft heißt es laut Atwan zu den Anschlägen in Madrid, eine 'Todesschwadrone' von El Kaida habe erfolgreich 'einen der Pfeiler der Kreuzfahrer-Allianz' gegen den Islam untergraben. "Dies ist Teil einer Begleichung alter Rechnungen mit Spanien, dem Kreuzfahrer und Verbündeten Amerikas in dessen Krieg gegen den Islam", zitierte der Chefredakteur aus dem Bekennerschreiben.

Britische Terror-Experten sagten, der angedrohte neue Anschlag in den USA könne reine Propaganda sein. In den vergangenen Monaten hätten angebliche El Kaida-Mitglieder schon mehrmals erklärt, Amerika stehe unmittelbar vor einem Anschlag von den Dimensionen des 11. September 2001. Bisher habe sich aber nicht bewahrheitet.

Translation: Preparation for the next attack finished to "90%"
In the united state fears of another attack with unknowing impact is growing after the Bin-Laden-Terrorgroup Al-Qaeda did publish a warning. The moslemextremis have after the in london published arabic-newspaper "El Kuds El Arabi" promised a new attack against the US finished to 90%, its stated in the writting were they state they were the one who attacked Madrid.
The Chiefredacteur of the newspaper, Adelbart Atwan said he think the words of that letter are real.

(Thats the most important part of that news so I won't bother to translate that badly the rest.)

EDIT: I found an article in english:
Explosions on Madrid trains leave 192 dead, 1,400 injured

March 12, 2004

BY ISAMBARD WILKINSON
Advertisement

MADRID -- Simultaneous bomb explosions tore through four packed Spanish commuter trains at the height of the rush-hour Thursday, leaving at least 192 people dead and 1,400 injured. Spain at first blamed Basque separatists but a shadowy group claimed responsibility in the name of al-Qaida for the worst terrorist attack in Spanish history.

Panicked commuters trampled on each other, abandoning their bags and shoes, after two of the bombs went off in one train in the Atocha station in the heart of Madrid. Train cars were turned into twisted wrecks and platforms were strewn with corpses. Cell phones rang unanswered on the bodies of the dead as frantic relatives tried to call them.

"This is mass murder," Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar said in a televised address after an emergency Cabinet meeting. "No negotiation is possible or desirable with these assassins, who so many times have sown death across Spain."

'The sky seemed to be crashing in'

BY PHILIP DELVES BROUGHTON

MADRID -- Christine Hernando opened her window overlooking the railway junction 800 yards from Atocha station, hoping to let in some fresh spring air. Instead there came a deafening explosion.

"I was just about to have breakfast before going to work," she said. "When I looked out I could see nothing at first as the tracks were covered in smoke. I could only hear screams for help and cries of pain.

"When the smoke lifted I could see scores of bloodied and injured people staggering from the tracks as best as they could. It was a nightmarish scene of blood and fear."

Below her window, hundreds of workers and schoolchildren from the working-class neighborhoods of southern Madrid had been traveling in red-and-white commuter trains to the center of the capital.

At 7:39 a.m., the first three explosions went off in a train pulling into Atocha, Madrid's central train station close by the Prado museum and many government ministries.

"I shook like a cigarette paper," said Angel Manuel Garcia, 24, who was working in a tunnel underneath the station. "The sky seemed to be crashing in on our heads."

Minutes later, a second series of four explosions ripped through the train 500 yards behind the first one.

"People were stunned after the first blast," said Anibal Altamirano, an Ecuadorean student who was in the station. "We could see smoke and people all over the ground like in a disaster movie. Others were thrown against the walls. After the second explosion, people dropped everything -- bags and shoes -- and ran, trampling over each other. They didn't know where to go, and some went into the tunnels."

Within 15 minutes, one stop south of Atocha at El Pozo, two explosives went off in a single compartment of a commuter train from Alcala de Henares as it stopped at the station. One stop south on the same line, at Santa Eugenia, another device exploded. Ten remote-controlled bombs had gone off, setting a new standard in European terrorism.

Madrid fell silent. Slowly, the wail of sirens began.

From offices and houses near Atocha people poured on to the surrounding streets, some leaping over walls to the tracks to see if they could help. The chirp of cell phones rose from the immobilized trains.

Beatriz Martin, an emergency doctor, said: "On many bodies, we could hear the person's mobile phone ringing as we carried them away. The smell was sickening."

From a nearby rooftop, bodies could be seen thrown several feet from the blackened cars. The train's charred roof curled upwards, as if pried open.

Juan Redondo, a fireman, said: "It was butchery on a brutal scale. This catastrophe goes beyond the imaginable."

Daily Telegraph

Police said Thursday that a stolen van containing detonators and an Arabic-language tape with Quranic verses had been found in the Madrid suburb where it was believed the bombs had been planted.

Al-Qaida has repeatedly threatened members of the U.S.-led coalition in Iraq, including Spain, which has 1,300 troops there.

The Basque terrorist group ETA was blamed initially for planting 13 bombs in trains heading into Atocha, Madrid's busiest terminal. Ten of the backpack bombs exploded in a 15-minute span on trains along nine miles of commuter line from Santa Eugenia to Atocha, just south of the famed Prado Museum. Police also found and detonated three other bombs.

Spanish officials said the explosives were the same as those used by ETA in the past and noted the attack came three days before the general election, a period normally marked by ETA blasts.

But the bombers' methods, including synchronized bombs aimed at killing the maximum number of civilians, suggested involvement by Islamist terrorists.

Later, a London-based Arabic newspaper Al-Quds al-Arabi, said it had received a letter purporting to come from al-Qaida claiming responsibility. The e-mail claim, signed by the shadowy Brigade of Abu Hafs al-Masri, said the brigade's ''death squad'' had penetrated ''one of the pillars of the crusade alliance, Spain.''

''This is part of settling old accounts with Spain, the crusader, and America's ally in its war against Islam,'' the claim said.

The United States believes Al-Masri sometimes falsely claims to be acting on behalf of al-Qaida.

The purported al-Qaida statement also claimed the terror group would soon hit the United States with a major attack. ''The expected strike against America, is now at its final stage -- 90 percent ready,'' it said.

Interior Minister Angel Acebes said the discovery of the van opened "all kinds of lines of investigation."

ETA's political wing, the banned radical party Batasuna, said it "absolutely rejected" the attacks and was convinced ETA was not responsible. It blamed "Arab resistance."

Survivors spoke of terrible carnage. "It looked like a platform of death," said one witness who described a body being lifted off a station roof. Ana Maria Mayor, another passenger, said: "I saw a baby torn to bits."

As bloodied passengers staggered from stations and trains, the dead and dying were piled among the wreckage. Cries of pain emanated from the smoke.

ETA often warns of its attacks but this time there was no call. The bombs started exploding at 7:39 a.m. in a commuter train heading for Atocha. Blasts then hit trains and platforms at two suburban stations, El Pozo and Santa Eugenia. Both trains were heading to Atocha. Worst hit was a double-decker train at El Pozo, where two bombs killed 70 people.

Security officials said the attacks had been timed so that bombs went off as all four trains arrived at Atocha but the plan misfired because they were running two minutes late.

As campaigning for Sunday's election was halted, thousands of people gathered in towns across Spain, expressing outrage. Larger protests are planned today.

President Bush called Aznar and King Juan Carlos, saying he expressed ''our country's deepest sympathies toward those who lost their life.

''I told them we weep with the families. We stand strong with the people of Spain,'' Bush said.

Daily Telegraph, with AP contributing

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hesdead-dealwithit

March 12th, 2004, 1:35 pm

If it was ETA, then this was a very radical departure from what they have done earlier, targeting mostly political and public figures and not doing large scale operations.

However, if it was Al-Qaida, then it was as well a radical departure from the previous, as Al Qaida never claims responsibility for its attacks.

Wab

March 12th, 2004, 2:25 pm

I don't like pacifism, but you won't be banned from the boards for expressing it.

At least I hope not. *scared*

If almost 200 people didn't die, this would be laughable - Spain was the one country that didn't join in the crusades. Why? Because it was fighting off the Muslims invaders on its own homeland.

The use of the term crusader is part of the modern rhetoric which compares the so-called war on terror with the Crusades.

An impression reinforced when W initially used the word "crusade" when talking about goign into Afghanistan.

Wab

March 12th, 2004, 2:32 pm

They have stopped to say it was the ETA now they kept saying in London by a british moslem newspaper the Al-Qaeda did state they were it.

The group that claimed responsibilty has a history of taking the credit for attacks it didn't do.

As hesdead said the perplexing thing is that it fits neither the ETA nor AQ profiles.

A sound theory is that it is a militant faction impatient with the recent halt of violence rather like the C & R IRAs.

LynorEclipse

March 12th, 2004, 3:54 pm

My sister is there right now!!! (you may know her as Katy Kedevra). She's on a trip with the Spanish and French departments of her school because she's taking Spanish (we both know French... it's been our second language since we were 5). The good news is that she was still on the plane when it happened, so I know she's safe. The school had been thinking of cancelling the trip before they left, but now that they are there, they are going to stay. They were supposed to go on a walking tour of Madrid... that's out of the question now. They've changed their schedule and I don't think that they are going to Madrid at all. Later, they will be going to France. I hope that everything goes well and that my sister comes back alright.

I think that terrorism is horrible and disgusting, and I wish that people would stop trying to kill (and succeeding in killing) each other. It is so wrong!

Emma

March 12th, 2004, 4:30 pm

I don't like pacifism, but you won't be banned from the boards for expressing it.

At least I hope not. *scared*
I'm not really a pacifist, I just would love to see no wars or violence at all. I know that that is not reality.

But when I hear of this sort of thing, I could think of things that I normally wouldn't think of doing in retaliation.

Tane

March 12th, 2004, 6:09 pm

You know could it be possible that both ETA and AQ working in a coalition or would that be against there grain to have terrorist groups unit against the united nations set on wage a war against terrorists. Might explain why the bombs where ETA style but magnitude and tape where AQ.

That to me would be a very frightening thought indeed.

Either way I think the elections should continue on Sunday in respect for those who have died because it shows that the terrorists have not won and beaten the people of Spain down. Stand up for those who lost life by voting on Sunday.

The lastest reports have now come through and they have changed what was stated before about the bomb construction to having all the hall marks of AQ.

I can not stand all the type of wars that are taking place at this time in our history. I also think that what the people of Spain are doing right now is wonderful.

hesdead-dealwithit

March 12th, 2004, 7:04 pm

I'm not really a pacifist, I just would love to see no wars or violence at all. I know that that is not reality.I would hope that we all would love to see no wars. And I would bet that we all know that it is not a reality, either. But we can try...

Wab - don't blame the victim.

FlyingPhoenix

March 12th, 2004, 7:27 pm

I would hope that we all would love to see no wars. And I would bet that we all know that it is not a reality, either. But we can try...

The problem is that I doubt anybody "want wars". Each human in they own way wants peace and being happy but some think they get this only through terroism.
In the end the wishes aren't that different just the way is.

Masterfroggy

March 12th, 2004, 7:39 pm

Which news center stated that they had heard of a possible further attack? That is scare mongering and their using intimidation techniques as well to get everyone tense. I know security is sky high in my city because we have an international conference headed by Tony Blair occur over the weekend. There upping the security after what has just happened and because there are two other major events coinciding with it.

So to here about another possible attack that is 90% nearly completely nerves me somewhat.

It might not just be scare tactic; according to a report on the BBC a van found parked in a station car park in Spain, was found containing the same type of detonators used to set of the explosive devices, also it contained taped scripts from the Muslim holy book the Koran

Later a E-mail was sent from a obscure Canadian group claiming responsibility, the Canadian group is linked to al-Qaeda

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3505308.stm

Tane

March 12th, 2004, 10:10 pm

It might not just be scare tactic; according to a report on the BBC a van found parked in a station car park in Spain, was found containing the same type of detonators used to set of the explosive devices, also it contained taped scripts from the Muslim holy book the Koran

Later a E-mail was sent from a obscure Canadian group claiming responsibility, the Canadian group is linked to al-Qaeda

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3505308.stm

I hope it is though.

I think the march that is going on at the moment is what people need to do all over. Show the terrorists exactly how many people oppose what they are doing and that they are prepared to stand against them and continue with there life. 8 million taking to the streets in protest is to me what the world needs to see. I proud of the Spanish people and at the same time give my condolence.

Dedalus

March 12th, 2004, 11:09 pm

The whole thing is sickening and completely, utterly horrible. I don't know much of the politics behind it, I'm afraid, but to be honest I don't mean to because then I'll just end up seeing people as politics instead of as people. I really really don't understand how anybody in the world can disregard human life so easily, that can kill people like they're just pawns to take away. How can anybody really think like that? I don't understand. It makes me choke to think of all these people who weren't even involved in anything to do with the attackers, just going about their lives, and having families and friends and it's all swept away in an instant, not even giving them the chance to defend themselves from an attack that should never have been on them. People are too precious to be used as pawns. I wish more than anything that whatever happened in human evolution that made us go "Senseless violence ... now there's a good idea" had never happened. Though I suppose eerybody wishes that.

Since I can't wish it had never happened, I hope more than anything else that we've seen the last of it, and the suffering doesn't get worse than it already has.

rotsiepots

March 13th, 2004, 2:02 am

It might not just be scare tactic; according to a report on the BBC a van found parked in a station car park in Spain, was found containing the same type of detonators used to set of the explosive devices, also it contained taped scripts from the Muslim holy book the Koran

Later a E-mail was sent from a obscure Canadian group claiming responsibility, the Canadian group is linked to al-Qaeda

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3505308.stm

The last thing I heard, police were investigating whether or not the van was a decoy (ie another terrorist/rebel group trying to make it look like Al Qaeda were behind the attack).

jennymac

March 13th, 2004, 2:37 am

In political terms I think that you might be right, the first attack on the World trade centre was the first, but the man charged was I understood to be an American born Palestinian sympathiser funded by unknown people, admittedly he used so many false identities that we will never know for sure weather he was, as he claimed Palestinian or American born as some government investigators believe, but I stand correctedactually that first attack was osama bin lauden. he tried to bring them down the first time just using bombs at the base, but the buildings were built to withstand much more than that. unfortunately he got smarter (or dumber, however you see it) the next time around...

sadly it’s nothing like 9/11, because unlike 9/11, in the USA, Europeans have suffered acts like this for nearly a 100 years (in the UK it goes back to the Irish troubles, in Spain it goes back to the end of the last war, 9/11 was the first foreign act of Terror ever perpetrated on the home soil of the USA, but I grew up with the threat of terrorism all around me, I have lost friends to bomb blasts and bulletsthe US has too over the last hundred years. 9/11 certainly wasn't the first act of terrorism. pearl harbor & oklahoma city bombing (although that was by an american) being good examples, though we come nowhere near to seeing as much devastation as europe. froggy (if i may call you that :) )i am so very sorry for any losses you've been through. :upset:

to anyone else out there who has every lost anyone to the senselessness of terrorism or to the recklessness of war, i'm deeply sorry. i can't begin to imagine what you went through, but just thinking about it saddens and sickens me. blessings to you all.

Masterfroggy

March 13th, 2004, 3:02 am

the US has too over the last hundred years. 9/11 certainly wasn't the first act of terrorism.
pearl harbor &
Oklahoma city bombing (although that was by an american) being good examples, though we come nowhere near to seeing as much devastation as europe. froggy (if i may call you that :) )i am so very sorry for any losses you've been through. :upset:

to anyone else out there who has every lost anyone to the senselessness of terrorism or to the recklessness of war, i'm deeply sorry. i can't begin to imagine what you went through, but just thinking about it saddens and sickens me. blessings to you all.

I said in my Post that 9/11 was the first foreign act of Terror ever perpetrated on the home soil of the USA (It was the second act) but both were the first acts of foreign terrorism pearl Harbour was an act of war, and therefore not terrorism, and the Oklahoma was, as you say, a domestic act of terrorism.

(Sure call me Froggy (it’s my daughter name really) but I don’t mind people calling me it )

jennymac

March 13th, 2004, 3:23 am

yes but osama thinks he's raging a war as well. really all terrorism is a form of war. in america, we think of pearl harbor as terrorism.

well some of us do...lol
i just asked my fiance what he thought and i think he agrees with you! lol. he says that since it was the government attacking, it was just war. but i still think of any attack on a country as terrorism. war in general is terrorism.

rotsiepots

March 13th, 2004, 4:28 am

i just asked my fiance what he thought and i think he agrees with you! lol. he says that since it was the government attacking, it was just war. but i still think of any attack on a country as terrorism. war in general is terrorism.

Would you regard the current war in Iraq as an act of terrorism? :huh:

I'm not trying to be inflammatory, I'm just curious.

Rotsie would like to take the time to remind everyone not to follow her lead and to stay on topic.

hermy_weasley2

March 13th, 2004, 12:07 pm

Tane

March 13th, 2004, 12:19 pm

Masterfroggy, but you have to remember that just because we don't have foreign terrorists doesn't mean we don't have violence and terrorists. The Oklahoma bombing, Eric Robert Rudolph's actions and crime like his, numerous mysterious serial killers like the Zodiac and the Beltway Snipers, groups like the KKK in the past, gang wars, school volence like Columbine, etc. And whether it was terroism or not, people sill died in Pearl Harbor. I think it's god to remember that terrorism isn't the only threatening violence in the world.

Anyway, back on topic...

I'm confused. What group (or groups) is claiming responsibility for the attacks in Spain? I've heard a lot of different things in the news, and none of it really fits together for me.

Al Qaeda at the moment because ETA has denied all responsibility but I do not think anyone knows exactly who is responsible as there is evidence for both groups. That is something I am a little concerned about, that perhaps it might have been both uniting. The nations keep saying that it is a war against terrorism and that gives all terrorist a common foe therefore even though they have differing beliefs behind there acts, they do have one same enemy in there eyes and that is the West.

If the West keeps saying it’s a war against all terrorists then they all might unite and wage war against the West. That is what worries me about what has just happened. If there is evidence for both groups then perhaps they where both involved.

ginnybatbogeysyou

March 13th, 2004, 12:20 pm

I'm confused. What group (or groups) is claiming responsibility for the attacks in Spain?
None is, and that's what's is puzzling everybody.

The Spanish government claims it was ETA, but the bombings weren't really their style (they try not to make civilians victims of their attacks and they always call before an attack).
Others say it's done by Al-Qaida, because the attack is in a way similar to the attack on the Twin Towers and the Pentagon. Lots of people think it's Al-Qaida because the attacks were on 11/03/2004, exactly 2,5 years after the attacks on the WTC and Pentagon. It is said they also found a tape with Arab recordings on it.

Wab

March 13th, 2004, 3:26 pm

Wab - don't blame the victim.

When did I do that?

Wab

March 13th, 2004, 3:57 pm

None is, and that's what's is puzzling everybody.

The Spanish government claims it was ETA, but the bombings weren't really their style (they try not to make civilians victims of their attacks and they always call before an attack).

The great and enduring myth:

"Amnesty International is deeply concerned about the new wave of killings and attempted killings perpetrated by the Basque armed group Euskadi Ta Askatasuna (ETA) since January 2000 and directed in the main at civilian targets. Members of Amnesty International are appealing to ETA's designated representatives to bring to the armed group's attention the concerns that have been repeatedly expressed by Amnesty International, as well as its concerns about intimidatory and life-threatening acts of ''street violence'' or ''urban struggle'' (''kale borroka'') by radical Basque nationalist groups.This organization urges ETA to put an immediate and unconditional end to its campaign of killings of civilians."

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGEUR410122000?open&of=ENG-ESP

"Its clearest manifestation is ETA, an armed organisation, nationalist in the extreme, which aims to impose the independence of the Basque country through violence and terror. Alongside its totally indiscriminate attacks on the civilian population or law enforcement officers, ETA also selects victims from amongst the ranks of the judiciary, journalists, politicians or peaceful citizens, on grounds of their non-nationalist ideas, using terror to forcibly dissuade society and individual citizens from opposing its methods and objectives. Over the last 25 years, ETA's terrorism has taken the lives of more than 800 people, including 24 children."

http://www.coe.int/T/E/Com/Files/Ministerial-Conferences/2002-Judicial/Panel1_C%E1ndidoCondePumpidoTour%F3n.asp

Others say it's done by Al-Qaida, because the attack is in a way similar to the attack on the Twin Towers and the Pentagon. Lots of people think it's Al-Qaida because the attacks were on 11/03/2004, exactly 2,5 years after the attacks on the WTC and Pentagon. It is said they also found a tape with Arab recordings on it.

Both arguments are presented here http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3501364.stm

I lean towards ETA or a splinter group.

Tane

March 13th, 2004, 7:09 pm

The great and enduring myth:

"Amnesty International is deeply concerned about the new wave of killings and attempted killings perpetrated by the Basque armed group Euskadi Ta Askatasuna (ETA) since January 2000 and directed in the main at civilian targets. Members of Amnesty International are appealing to ETA's designated representatives to bring to the armed group's attention the concerns that have been repeatedly expressed by Amnesty International, as well as its concerns about intimidatory and life-threatening acts of ''street violence'' or ''urban struggle'' (''kale borroka'') by radical Basque nationalist groups.This organization urges ETA to put an immediate and unconditional end to its campaign of killings of civilians."

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGEUR410122000?open&of=ENG-ESP

"Its clearest manifestation is ETA, an armed organisation, nationalist in the extreme, which aims to impose the independence of the Basque country through violence and terror. Alongside its totally indiscriminate attacks on the civilian population or law enforcement officers, ETA also selects victims from amongst the ranks of the judiciary, journalists, politicians or peaceful citizens, on grounds of their non-nationalist ideas, using terror to forcibly dissuade society and individual citizens from opposing its methods and objectives. Over the last 25 years, ETA's terrorism has taken the lives of more than 800 people, including 24 children."

http://www.coe.int/T/E/Com/Files/Ministerial-Conferences/2002-Judicial/Panel1_C%E1ndidoCondePumpidoTour%F3n.asp

I lean towards ETA or a splinter group.

You mean like what happened to the IRA and the Real IRA (as they liked to call themselves). When the Real IRA broke away from the IRA the violence on ordinary civilian targets did step up but as a result the IRA stopped what they where doing and aided the government with the capture and cease fire of the Real IRA.

Wab

March 14th, 2004, 12:15 am

Exactly.

Although the radio is announcing that AQ has claimed responisibilty in a video and authorities are athenticating the tape.

Bad timing for the Spanish govt though.

jennymac

March 14th, 2004, 2:34 am

Would you regard the current war in Iraq as an act of terrorism? :huh:

I'm not trying to be inflammatory, I'm just curious.i do actually. especially since i'm not even sure why bush went after them. they didn't attack us, bin lauden did. i won't get into any details as to why i'm angry at bush, since that's not for the thread anyway :) . but regarding this, i see our actions as no better than a terrorists. :sigh:

it just seems like we're masking it to say that a country is doing it so it must just be war. no matter who is bombing or killing for whatever reason, it sends terror through the heart of thousands/millions (thus terrorism) and it's just wrong. there are many hundreds of ways to settle things without going that far.

LynorEclipse

March 14th, 2004, 6:18 am

Originally posted by jennymac

i do actually. especially since i'm not even sure why bush went after them. they didn't attack us, bin lauden did. i won't get into any details as to why i'm angry at bush, since that's not for the thread anyway . but regarding this, i see our actions as no better than a terrorists.

it just seems like we're masking it to say that a country is doing it so it must just be war. no matter who is bombing or killing for whatever reason, it sends terror through the heart of thousands/millions (thus terrorism) and it's just wrong. there are many hundreds of ways to settle things without going that far.

That's why I'm glad that Canada didn't "help out", though we sure got a lot of bad talk from the American government for not supporting them. I remember hearing something about "the faces of the enemy" and that, as human beings, we can't percieve ourselves as being the greatest thing, that there is something bigger than us, good and evil, and that there is an enemy who we must protect ourselves and those we love from. The "enemy" could be something in nature, or, in the case of war, it is all the people of another country who are percieved to be trying to destroy us, so we must stop them. "It is okay to kill an enemy" is the way it is viewed... but what we must ask ourselves is "who is the enemy?" and "do we really have an enemy or are we just inventing one?" Inventing one because the news is entertainment and they need conflict, so why not have a war (see the movie "Wag the Dog"). Or inventing an enemy so that the army has something to do, and someone to use on the weapons they waste money to build. Or inventing an enemy so there is someone to blame, someone to hate (really dislike), someone to make us feel good about ourselves 'cause they are so bad. I think war is sad and horribly disgusting and I wish we would stop doing it. We're into a "civilized" era; we sure aren't acting it.

On my swim team right now, two Iraquy (sp?) swimmers are training with us for the Olympics this summer. I was talking with one of them and he said that a bomb landed near their pool and it has no windows on it anymore and that every night, people are in their homes by 6:00; it isn't safe. He hasn't been swimming for four months because of this, and is really out of shape. His goal is to break a national record at the Olympics (all of their national records are from before 1990 - there hasn't been a new one since, because of wars). I hope that he achieves his goal... but right now he's really out of shape. I can almost beat him and his teammate. He has about five months until the Olympics... I hope that that's enough time to get up to the level he used to be at and beyond. Anyway... sorry for going so off topic, I just thought you might like to know how it is for civilians in Iraq.

Hagrid442

March 14th, 2004, 4:33 pm

Don't forget. Spain has an election going on right now. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3509744.stm)

Spain votes under a shadow

By Dominic Bailey
BBC News Online, Madrid

All the conventional issues have been overshadowed
Spain is going to the polls under a dark cloud.
The new chapter that general elections are supposed to bring came three days early with the bomb attacks on commuter trains in Madrid.

Elections or no elections, the future will always be post-11 March not post-14 March.

One of the country's leading dailies, El Pais, summed up the mood when it said: "It is inevitable that the elections will take into account the situation created by the attacks".

Spaniards are grieving, still recoiling from stunned disbelief, but they are also angry.

At the peace demonstrations on Friday , millions across Spain directed that anger at the bombers who left 200 dead and more than 1,000 injured.

The protest was a symbol that they would not be broken by terror.

'Dubious'

Turn-out for the polls - which was 68% in 2000 - is expected to be higher this year as voters reinforce that message that bombs cannot break their democracy.

The interior minister promised total transparency in the investigation
But the governing Popular Party (PP), which had been widely expected to win, has also been a target for that anger and frustration.

At the peace marches and at "spontaneous" protests outside PP headquarters in Madrid on Saturday, thousands demanded "Who was it? Tell us the truth" and held up banners warning "Don't play with the dead".

El Pais referred to "the more than dubious attitude of the government in relation to the lines of investigation".

And protesters accused the government of managing the release of information about the attacks to their own political ends.

Until the arrests on Saturday, the government had insisted its prime line of investigation was directed at the Basque separatists Eta, although the scale of the attack and devastation it caused left some unconvinced.

If Eta is to blame it would justify the PP's hard line against the group and separatism in Spain.

But if al-Qaeda is to blame, however, it would bring into question Spain's decision to join the United States and Britain in the war on Iraq, something 90% of Spaniards opposed.

Change expected

The newspapers have different views of the government's behaviour over the last few days.

ABC says that "in little more than 48 hours the Interior Ministry has been able to present citizens the first concrete results of the police investigation into the 11-M attacks... The Executive and Jose Maria Aznar have behaved with efficiency and transparency."

Some are sceptical about the ruling party's response
But El Mundo calls the latest arrests "an embarrassing situation for the government just a few hours from the elections".

La Razon noted that "it would have been better to know these facts (about the arrests) on Thursday so that the election campaign wouldn't suffered such uncertainty. But what is certain is that seldom has a police force showed the efficiency of the Spanish police."

Electrician Karim Al-Jadyan, 33, believes the bombing will affect the outcome of the elections, but could not predict whether PP would be defeated or gain a majority.

"I think there will be changes," he said. "When something like this happens there is a change for something new. There will be a new way of thinking, new laws for everything and no more flexibility."

Felipe Clavello, 72, and his wife Carmen, 72, said people were disappointed with the government but they preferred Jose Maria Aznar's successor Mariano Rajoy to the Socialist (PSOE) leader Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero, the main challenger.

As people go to cast their votes, party political posters put up before 11 March are now side-by-side with black ribbons of mourning.

How much change Spain wants will be decided by Monday morning.

It should be noted that both the ETA and Al-Qaeda have denied responsibility. Either way, the attacks have much implications on this election. I don't know how it will skew the vote.

ginnybatbogeysyou

March 14th, 2004, 7:18 pm

The great and enduring myth
I realize I didn't really say what I wanted. I meant to say that ETA always attacks certain people, like politicians, that are 'in their way' if you can say it like that. I'm not saying they had never killed civilians, but the highest number of civilians that was killed in an ETA attack was when they bombed a supermarket and 21 were killed. I'm not saying that that's a good thing, since nobody should be killed. But trains with apparantly nobody significant to ETA in them is an odd move for them to make in my opinion.

But since the evidence seems to be pointing more and more in AQ's direction it is no use to discuss if this was an ETA attack.

Midnightsfire

March 14th, 2004, 11:37 pm

Well, it isn't certain, but it appears that Bush is the reason for [url=http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/03/14/spain.blasts.election/index.html]Spain's Socialists Party's victory[url] in the election.

Turnout was high at 76 percent with voters seeming to express anger with the government, accusing it of provoking the Madrid attacks by supporting the U.S.-led war in Iraq, which most Spaniards opposed.

Tane

March 15th, 2004, 1:27 am

LumosSoleil

March 15th, 2004, 2:43 am

This is so sickening. I was crying for a whole hour on this. I hate all these secret cowardly masked attacks. My sis and I were praying for those hurt and those who died or were affected by this for like another hour. O my goodness this is such an awful and tragic thing to happen. Who do these people think they are? They're trying to scare the wits out all over the world. I mean Are they trying to plan another attack on another 11th of another month? These stupid scare tactics aren't scaring people! It's paining and angering them. This only makes us more united. Their plan to scatter and scare us is failing horribly! I just want to warn those who didn't see photos of victims to take caution because they are horrific. I nearly had a heart attack looking at them. They just popped up with the news page I was trying to read. It's so sad. The people who died looked as if they're justing resting but never waking up. I don't care what group is doing this because their are just too many cowards out there doing these sick acts to provoke fear and display radical hatred. When there's a start for something, more will follow, especially people from different regions of the world who convert to Islam and are extreme in their beliefs. I'm not saying they all are like this but I read a lot of coverage on this and there were mentions of converters who could have done this on their own accord that has nothing to do with terrorist groups.

Alastor D

March 15th, 2004, 7:28 am

I'm very much afraid that the results of this election will teach those terrorists the wrong lesson. They will see this as proof that terrorism really works.

Tane

March 15th, 2004, 8:12 am

I'm very much afraid that the results of this election will teach those terrorists the wrong lesson. They will see this as proof that terrorism really works.

I too agree with that sentiment. If you loose the current PM then it shows that Spanish people are not opposed to terrorism in the eyes of the terrorist as it is getting rid of someone who supported US against terrorism. That sure is not what the people of Spain want, is it, to give up in the face of a terrorist and allow them to win by electing someone who will not care about what has just happened. If the results come out badly then the terrorists will believe they not only have a physical threat with bombs but also from a political sense. It will only teach them that using force they can change the opinion of people so much that it can affect politics directly. Under these circumstances the polls should have been delayed until people have got some normality back into their lives and can think the situation through. If he gets out on his policies as a whole then yes but not because of terrorism, that would be wrong as it is placing the blame onto the shoulders of the someone who really has done nothing wrong and only supported against what happened to the Spanish people this week.

Hagrid442

March 15th, 2004, 9:27 am

I'm very surprised the Socialists won, myself. I also am worried about the implications too. This may merely serve to embolden those responsible for the attacks, and terrorists everywhere. If this is because they wanted to spite Bush, then shame on them. However, it's pretty telling how much Bush inflames people against him.

Wab

March 15th, 2004, 4:54 pm

I'm very much afraid that the results of this election will teach those terrorists the wrong lesson. They will see this as proof that terrorism really works.

There was abundant evidence before.

LumosSoleil

March 15th, 2004, 7:50 pm

Well, I hope for the best for Spain's new presidency. I just read somewhere that the attacks on March 11, which is exactly 2 1/2 years after 9/11, marks 911 days after the 9/11 attacks. These people are such freaks. Right now no one gets that whole 9-1-1 thing but they are such extremists they had to go down to numbers too.

Llopin

March 15th, 2004, 10:22 pm

We've been heavily attacked by the media here in Spain these last days, it's been fast and confusing times.

I'm not into politics myself, but I wasn't surprised to see the PSOE (socialists) win. In my opinion, it is good for a country to change the type of administration frequently (in the US, there have hardly been long periods of one partie's absolute control). It was time for the PP (not exactly republicans, but similar) to step out, and now i'm interested to see what will the PSOE do, let's give them a chance.

I was expecting the PP to lose because of the whole controversy with the war. Since last march, people got real furious with the PP for joining the war, and now this massacre seems to prove going to war was a wrong idea - there's still no official announcement, but Al Qaeda is the most likely to have done the killing. The PP tried real hard to convince people it was ETA (that way they did not lose votes), they even called several newspapers and TV stations to announce ETA was the one who did the massacre (and when ETA proclaimed they didn't do anything they even tried to hide it!). However, i didn't know how would the elections end. The PP has lost.

It's a good thing for me since here in Catalunya we are absolutely against the PP (as it does not favour the catalan interests), and I'm intrigued in how the socialists will organize the new administration - and how will they keep their relations with Bush (who, possibly, won't be president for much longer).

hermy_weasley2

March 15th, 2004, 10:47 pm

I'm worried that the results of the elections in Spain will send the message that terrorism works as well. This is exactly what the terrorists wanted, and now they're getting it. Poltical desires are no reason to kill innocent people. After Sept. 11, there was some talk about understanding why it happened, but there is no reason to kill innocent people.

AllanTheGreat

March 15th, 2004, 10:58 pm

Call me crazy, but I have a theory.

Considering the fact that they're still speculating it was Al-Qaeda, what if some anti-PP Spanish organization ordered the bombs to be put on the trains at exactly 911 days after the 9/11 attacks, to turn around the election results and to make everyone blame the Al-Qaeda?

Hagrid442

March 16th, 2004, 1:08 am

That's tinfoil hat territory. Not saying it's not possible, but there's no evidence of collusion.

If so, than the PSOE is truly sick, and shouldn't be anywhere near power.

Kaonashi

March 16th, 2004, 4:47 am

It's a mad, mad world out there, Hagrid. Nothing surprises me anymore.

I too read about the plan that Al Quaeda's newest plans to attack the US is at 90% completion, and that's a scary thought. What's even scarier is the nutters in the US who would see this and do things to further their own agenda, secure in the knowledge that Al-Quaeda will get blamed for it.

Hagrid442

March 16th, 2004, 7:59 am

If it's known to be near completion, then it's not much of a secret attack is it? Unless, that's the point. Get people all worked up, and anxious for an attack, and then not do it. But that's not al-Qaeda's modus operandi. They work on the shock factor, hoping to destroy as much as they can. Mind games just isn't their style.

Animagi rock!

March 16th, 2004, 1:00 pm

It sounds like more and more evidence is pointing to islamic extremists rather than ETA doing the bombing.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/spain/article/0,2763,1170380,00.html

Spanish police have identified six Moroccans who they suspect carried out last week's bomb attacks in Madrid, it was reported today.
According to unnamed sources cited by Spain's El Pais newspaper, five of the men are on the run but one - Jamal Zougam - was among a group of suspects arrested on Saturday.

Spanish authorities believe the terrorists behind the March 11 attack have ties to a radical Islamist group that killed more than 40 people in suicide bombings in Casablanca last May, according to the paper.

It says police see Zougam as a "prime suspect" who is believed to have helped construct the explosive devices used in the Madrid bombings, which killed 201 rush-hour commuters and injured an estimated 1,500 more.

Citing security sources, the paper said Zougam, who was arrested last Saturday along with two other Moroccans, had been identified by two survivors of the train blasts who said they saw him before the explosions.

No formal charges have been made against him or the other two Moroccans in custody. The men are being held under anti-terror laws that allow police to question them for up to five days without charge.

Two Indian men who were also arrested on Saturday have been released following police interrogation, El Pais reported. The paper said the men are understood to have sold the mobile phones that were used by the attackers to remotely detonate the bombs.

Investigators also believe that a video tape in which an unidentified man with a Moroccan accent claims responsibility for the bombings in al-Qaida's name is authentic, according to radio station Cadena Ser.

Spain's interior ministry has so far declined to comment on today's reports in the Spanish media.

Moroccan officials previously dismissed the possibility of a direct link between the Casablanca bombing and the attack on Madrid.

Reporting on the progress of the investigation into the bombings, the Spanish interior minister, Angel Acebes, said yesterday that autopsies on victims of the blasts had found no evidence that suicide bombers were involved.

He also warned the Spanish public and the wider international community, which is desperate for confirmation of who was behind the attack, that the investigation would be "a long and complex" one.

The bombings, which authorities initially blamed on armed Basque separatists Eta, sparked widespread anger at Prime Minister José María Aznar's support for the US-led Iraq war.

Spain's prime minister elect, José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero, said, following his shock win, that he would pull Madrid's troops out of a "disastrous" occupation of Iraq unless the United Nations takes charge in the summer.

The suspicions of many Spaniards that the ruling centre right Popular party was not revealing all it knew about the bombings helped sweep the government out of office.

Some analysts have suggested that, if al-Qaida or an associated group was proved to be behind the attack, it would be first time Islamist militants have successfully influenced the political course of a major western democracy through violence.

However, Mr Zapatero denied at a news conference yesterday that his success was a "victory for terrorism". He said: "In Spain, there was a desire for change."

brisa

March 16th, 2004, 5:35 pm

Oks...the main problem isn't in WHO did it...could be anyone...extremist groups, politic groups...religion groups...the fact is that those who did it don't have a real reason to did it...I mean, people who is now indignated with this acts, probably will hate foreign poeple their whole life, I'm talking about what childs will think after saw this kind of violence, childs for other countries will hate many people, they will grow with a racism culture...and we really don't know who did it...you can get all the clues you want to but...the truth is out there, we won't never know WHO really did it...we cannot name any nation or group...

The reason I posted this thread is that I wanted to give my point of view about all silly wars and attacks we have heard nowadays...a NO REASON war, a no reason attack are ridiculous...just to get more economic and confidence power doesn't mean you have to kill people, and doesn't mean you have to order a NO REASON war...

Auror Williamson

March 17th, 2004, 3:58 pm

FlyingPhoenix

March 17th, 2004, 5:12 pm

Shame on you for giving in to bin Laden and his followers.

Thats harsh and for my taste to harsh because the gouverment was before the attacks not very much liked because they were that pro-US in the past. It was before that that people wished the spain-army comes home.
In just 2 days you can't expect that the whole country suddenly think they gouverment is bad because of the attacks. In fact it wasn't in spain clear if it were the ETA or al-Qaeda. The old-spain-gouverment did manipulate the press so they say it was the ETA.

Sure it seems they gave in but in fact they didn't. Even if they did can you really blame them like that? Because they just don't want more terror? Only the ETA is already hard but the al-Qaeda is terrible. Is like its comes from all side's you don't feel safe rather like on war.

Don't tell people they are a shame just because they fear to lose someone they love thats not fair.

DsX Phoenix

March 17th, 2004, 5:17 pm

Auror Williamson

March 17th, 2004, 5:31 pm

The old President was ahead in the polls by 12 points right before the attack.

By electing an appeaser and declaring the withdrawel of troops from Iraq shows that the terrorists have won, and are just inviting more attacks.

FlyingPhoenix

March 17th, 2004, 6:01 pm

The old President was ahead in the polls by 12 points right before the attack.

You know in Germany there was a poll before the parlament was new chosen the sozialist where quiet ahead in fact 5% more but as the voteing was over the conservatives were together with the liberate nearly better as the sozialists. They even did celebrate that they won, even Bush did phone and congrat them. But in the end the sozialists did win by 1%.
Dos this say you can count at polls? Nope not really.

Wab

March 17th, 2004, 7:03 pm

By electing an appeaser and declaring the withdrawel of troops from Iraq shows that the terrorists have won, and are just inviting more attacks.

Had the socialists made the decision after the attacks, maybe but it was a longer-standing policy.

And the withdrawal is not set in stone.

Plus the result can also be contributed in a big way to how the PP lied to the SPanish people in order to shore up their own results.

Midnightsfire

March 17th, 2004, 7:23 pm

Midnightsfire

March 17th, 2004, 7:27 pm

Did Al-Qaeda Win the Spanish Elections (http://www.juancole.com/2004_03_01_juancole_archive.html#107942407001890750)?

Some insightful stuff by Juan Cole:

"After nearly four years of White House rhetoric stolen from old Clint Eastwood spaghetti Westerns, the determination in [incoming Spanish prime minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero's anti-Iraq war] speech to pursue anti-terrorism with an eye to establishing social peace and creating the conditions of human development hits me as a gale of fresh air. So this is what al-Qaeda was going for with the train bombs? To create a "grand alliance" of democracies against it? Zapatero's speech is a victory for Bin Laden?"
"No, it is a defeat only for the Bush administration and the Neoconservative philosophy of Perpetual War. They hold that the US, the UK and Turkey are the only permanent allies and shifting coalitions "of the willing" are put together for particular wars, depending on who can be cajoled, bribed or bamboozled into joining up. This system of US-led shifting coalitions removes all restraint on US militarism. If you have permanent allies, like Germany and France, you might have to pay attention to them. If all you have is a shifting coalition, you can do what you please when you please. Multilateralists are like a set of married couples who are old friends; the Neocons' unilateral superpower is like Hugh Hefner, surrounded by a constantly changing bevy of hand-picked 'girlfriends.'"

"Unfortunately for this adolescent power fantasy, the real world does not reward naked power and action solely in self-interest. NATO and the United Nations have hung the US out to dry in Iraq, ensuring that its troops take the brunt of the ongoing insurgency. The Turks decided early on that they wanted nothing to do with this dangerous adventure in a place that they saw as a hotbed of religious and ethnic radicalism barely contained by the ramshackle Baath structures of repression. So that 'permanent' ally turned out to be no such thing."

"With the secession of Spain from the 'coalition of the willing,' the rug has been pulled out from under the Bush doctrine of preemption, the Bush commitment to US military action without a proper UNSC resolution, and the Bush conviction that you can fool all the people all the time. Since Bush administration militarism and desire to go about overthrowing most of the governments in the Middle East actually was highly destabilizing and created enormous numbers of potential recruits for al-Qaeda, the Spanish actions are a great victory for the counter-insurgency struggle against al-Qaeda."

Auror Williamson

March 17th, 2004, 10:03 pm

It depends on which polls you look at. The several I've seen all showed the former President in the lead from 6 to 12 points right before the attacks.

hesdead-dealwithit

March 18th, 2004, 12:37 am

Plus the result can also be contributed in a big way to how the PP lied to the SPanish people in order to shore up their own results.
The key is not what the result can be attributed to, but what it will be attributed to. Look at it from the terrorists' point of view - they bombed, Spain left.

Of course, you cannot let yourself be ruled by what others do. It would be entirely wrong to say, "Well, know you have to support the coalition, because if you don't, you'll get bombed."

Nevertheless, I think that trying to say that what al-Qaida will draw from this is anything but "Terrorism wins" would be simply foolish. London, Rome, Lisbon - they will be bombed. Not to mention New York and Chicago and LA, though of course those are much more difficult for the terrorists to reach - note that the 9/11 preparation was done in Europe.

So what should we draw from this? In my opinion:

1) Terrorism is only combated by combating it.
2) Letting your policy be ruled by terrorists is just as much "letting the terrorists win" as withdrawing from the attack and thereby letting the terrorists win.
3) The important thing is to keep in my the goal of the terrorists - destroying Western society and civilization and putting in its place a fundamentalist, misogynist, anti-Jewish, autocratic, oppressive, world-wide Islamic organization. You cannot negotiate with terrorists, whether it's ETA or Yasser Arafat or al-Qaida.

Midnightsfire

March 18th, 2004, 1:16 am

The Spanish government has pledged to attack the terrorists directly, not to stretch their forces to some illicit war propagated on deception.

Again, No definitive proof that Iraq had anything to do with Al-Qaeda. Just the opposite really. So by that logic, the question would be "Why would they stay in Iraq when they should go after the terrorists?"

Hagrid442

March 18th, 2004, 3:01 am

I think they probably should have postponed the election for a couple of weeks to a month. I don't doubt at all that with the attacks so fresh in people's minds that they reacted with the misguided thought that if they withdraw from Iraq that Al Qaeda will leave them alone. Instead, they proved that terrorism and fear work by voting in someone whose main policy platform was to take Spanish troops out. Aznar's administration has been pretty decent in domestic affairs. Spain is enjoying a period of prosperity.

Somebody that opposed the War in Iraq weighs in (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/16/opinion/16LUTT.html?n=Top%2fOpinion%2fEditorials%20and%20Op%2dEd%2fOp%2dEd%2fContributors)

Rewarding Terror in Spain
By EDWARD N. LUTTWAK

It must be said: Spanish voters have allowed a small band of terrorists to dictate the outcome of their national elections. This is not how democracies are supposed to react when they are attacked by fanatics. Americans were visibly united and hardened by Sept. 11; the Italians overcame deep political differences to unify in their determination to crush the Red Brigades; Israeli cohesion has only been increased by decades of terrorism. When threatened by a violent few, democratic political communities will normally react by enforcing the will of the many.

For many years, this has been the Spanish answer to the Basque separatist movement. But it was not the response to last week's bombings.

Before the attacks, the polls forecast a victory for Mariano Rajoy of the Popular Party, for the very good reason that he was the chosen successor of Prime Minister José María Aznar, who has led Spain on the path of modernization and prosperity with almost universally acknowledged success. Three days before the elections, Mr. Rajoy seemed to be headed for victory over José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero, leader of the Spanish Socialist Workers' Party, who campaigned on a pledge to withdraw the 1,300 Spanish troops stationed in Iraq if the United Nations did not assume control of the occupation. Mr. Zapatero's call was not merely to avoid more casualties, but to affirm that the Iraq war was an act of imperialist aggression that Spain should never have supported.

Even those who view the Iraq war as a strategic error for the United States — and I'm one of them — cannot take seriously the Zapateros of Europe, who seem bent on validating the crudest caricatures of "old European" cowardly decadence. It was an act of colossal irresponsibility for the Socialists and the Spanish news media to excoriate the Aznar government for asserting that ETA, the Basque separatist movement, was probably behind the attacks.

Were the Socialists certain Al Qaeda was involved? No, but saying so made it easier to convince voters that the bombs had been placed by Muslims angry that Spain had sided with the United States in the war — and that the only way to make things right would be to get out of Iraq.

Whatever their motivation, the Socialists' argument was fundamentally flawed. Osama bin Laden and other Islamists had identified Spain as a priority target years before the Iraq war. Under Muslim law, no land conquered by Islam may legitimately come under non-Muslim rule. For the fanatics, Spain is still Al Andalus of the Middle Ages, which must be re-claimed for Islam by immigration and intimidation. Even if the bombs were placed by Islamists, the idea that Spain was attacked solely because of Mr. Aznar's support for the Iraq war is simply wrong.

And even if ETA is found to be responsible — something that seems increasingly unlikely given the direction of the investigation — the damage has been done. The Spanish political community has failed the test of terrorism — it has bowed to the violence of the few. Weakness tends to invite further attack. In this regard, Spain is vulnerable. It still rules the enclaves of Ceuta and Melilla on the North African coast, which Islamists view as Christian colonies on Muslim soil. Having seen what bombs can do, they might be tempted to see if a few more explosions can induce the Spanish to withdraw. Similarly, ETA may well decide that another massacre or two will persuade the Spanish government to accept its demands.

Paradoxically, Mr. Zapatero can redeem Spanish democracy only if he repudiates the popular mandate he received and announces that there will be no withdrawal from Iraq because of any act of terrorism, Muslim or Basque.

What will the rest of Europe do? For politicians in countries like Italy, with both strong anti-American movements and troops in Iraq, the risks are obvious. Any politician who invokes Madrid to demand a withdrawal from Iraq will be inviting terrorist attacks to prove his point. What's more, it's unlikely that this strategy will work politically. The Spanish literally had no time to reflect between the Madrid bombings and the election. With more time, other nations are more likely to react as democracies usually do: by rejecting terrorists and their deluded causes.

(Edward N. Luttwak is a senior fellow at the Center for Strategic and International Studies.)

Wab

March 18th, 2004, 5:55 am

You cannot negotiate with terrorists, whether it's ETA or Yasser Arafat or al-Qaida.

You can and it has been done and will be done in the future.

However, AQ cannot and will not be negotiated with partly due to simple intransigence and secondly, it has become an ideology of itself with disaparate and unrelated groups claiming the mantel when it suits.

Midnightsfire

March 18th, 2004, 12:30 pm

If this were the Mideasat thread I'd say add Ariel Sharon to the list...

Hagrid442:

Luttwak's argument is flawed. On one hand he says:

"Spanish voters have allowed a small band of terrorists to dictate the outcome of their national elections."

Then on the other he says:

Mr. Zapatero can redeem Spanish democracy only if he repudiates the popular mandate he received and announces that there will be no withdrawal from Iraq because of any act of terrorism, Muslim or Basque.

Which begs the question; How is stayiing in Iraq connected to getting Al-Qaeda?

If there had been a connection, they wouldn't be leaving. It would be an extreme irony if Spain finds Osama bin Laden. Focus focus focus. There are far better reasons for Spain to be involved in Afghanistan. (Where AlQaeda seems to have made a comeback.)

Hagrid442

March 18th, 2004, 2:45 pm

Fizban

March 18th, 2004, 10:03 pm

I just stepped in to try to open the minds of those following this thread.

Things are always much more complex than what you can read in newspaper articles. Journalists have the difficult task of summarizing reality in a few lines. That itself means a simplification of reality. But journalists also have to make the newspaper earn money so they have to find a catchy title for the article. This also might mean that newspaper titles have to give concesions to truth in favor of attractiveness. Besides, a specific fact can be described in multiple ways and this adds subjectivity to all newspaper articles, which also attracts certain types of readers to certain newspapers.

All of this is just to warn you about blindly believing all what a specific newspaper says. In fact, we tend to give more credibility to those articles that support the believes we had before reading the article. It is just human nature.

All of this might seem obvious, but in this thread it seems that some articles are given as "proof" of one's opinion, when it is just a proof that someone else thinks like oneself. And it is fair to do so, but note that that many people THINK in a certain way, does not prove that it is the right way to think. In a lot of islamic countries there are a lot of people that worship Ben Laden. Does that add legitimacy to his actions? Most, if not all the followers of this thread will agree that no matter how many people support Ben Laden, his actions have no justification.

After this long introduction, let's go to the new point of discussion of the last posts. On February 12th, Zapatero said that he would withdraw Spanish troops from Iraq if he won the elections and IF the UN did not "take over the situation". He made that promise like a slogan during the whole campaign. The date was picked because that was the extension limit that was approved by the government in December for the presence of Spanish troops. Zapatero is in favor of Spanish troops being in Iraq in peace actions; but he wants legitimacy for that. As a lot of Europeans, he believes that legitimacy comes from the UN, not from the opinion of one single member (the USA).

Zapatero is in favor of unity against terrorism and he firmly believes that it is not something where only a few countries decide. All the countries need to be involved. For that, he believes in the UN as the best organism to handle these kind of decisions. In fact, I have read somewhere (http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20040318-083900-1945r) that the USA is giving "serious consideration" to a new UN resolution, when a few days ago Kofi Annan said that it was highly unlikely. If there is eventually one, this would be a win for democracy, a win for coalition against terrorism, a win for the unity.

It is going to be interesting to see how all this will evolve.

OrbitingElle

March 18th, 2004, 10:56 pm

Things are always much more complex than what you can read in newspaper articles. Journalists have the difficult task of summarizing reality in a few lines. That itself means a simplification of reality. But journalists also have to make the newspaper earn money so they have to find a catchy title for the article. This also might mean that newspaper titles have to give concesions to truth in favor of attractiveness. Besides, a specific fact can be described in multiple ways and this adds subjectivity to all newspaper articles, which also attracts certain types of readers to certain newspapers.

All of this is just to warn you about blindly believing all what a specific newspaper says. In fact, we tend to give more credibility to those articles that support the believes we had before reading the article. It is just human nature.

It's true. Human nature is to seek out justification for what we already are feeling. Someone who fully supports the war might read an article condemning the US's actions and dismiss it as a fluff piece. But someone who already feels uneasy about the war might read the same article and finally feel validated, like "Aha! I KNEW there was something fishy about this war, and now I have proof." Even if the article was written by some Joe Schmoe who didn't know his stuff, we'll file it away in our brain for when we need a quote to back our argument up.

I do this more than I care to admit to. I use the vague "they" reference all the time. "You know, they say that Bush is an alien." Who is They?

Midnightsfire

March 19th, 2004, 12:27 am

You mean he's not an alien? :wow:

I have some doubts about the provenance of this but
Purported Al Qaeda Letter Calls Truce in Spain (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/nm/20040317/wl_nm/security_spain_truce_dc&e=2&ncid=721)

Auror Williamson

March 19th, 2004, 12:45 am

It's real. All of the major news outlets are confirming it.

"Because of this decision, the leadership has decided to stop all operations within the Spanish territories... until we know the intentions of the new government that has promised to withdraw Spanish troops from Iraq,"

How nice of you.

"The Spanish people... chose peace by choosing the party that was against the alliance with America,"

See? This shows that changing the outcome of the election was the sole intent of the attack.

"Whose turn is it next? Will it be Japan or America, or Italy, Britain or Oslo or Australia?"

That's right... Let's go bomb the Italians or better yet, the citizens of Oslo...

A part of the letter that was not in the link was the part explaining how they succeeded in chaning it to a more friendly government and effecting the world economy.

Midnightsfire

March 19th, 2004, 12:56 am

It's real. All of the major news outlets are confirming itReal? Let's tale a longer look at the other part of that link:

WE WANT BUSH TO WIN

The statement said it supported President Bush in his reelection campaign, and would prefer him to win in November rather than the Democratic candidate John Kerry, as it was not possible to find a leader "more foolish than you (Bush), who deals with matters by force rather than with wisdom."

In comments addressed to Bush, the group said:

"Kerry will kill our nation while it sleeps because he and the Democrats have the cunning to embellish blasphemy and present it to the Arab and Muslim nation as civilization."

"Because of this we desire you (Bush) to be elected."

The group said its cells were ready for another attack and time was running out for allies of the United States.

"Whose turn is it next? Will it be Japan or America, or Italy, Britain or Oslo or Australia?" the statement said, adding Pakistan and Saudi Arabia were also targets.

The group is named after Muhammed Atef, also known as Abu Hafs, a close bin Laden aide killed in the U.S.-led war in Afghanistan.

Auror Williamson

March 19th, 2004, 1:02 am

It doesn't suprise me. These are the same lunatics who killed 3,000 people.

Hagrid442

March 19th, 2004, 1:08 am

The UN has gotten involved. They were there recently determining the viability of elections. Unfortunately, elections aren't possible. That's not quite an official mandate, but it does show that the UN is at least somewhat willing to become involved.

However, I am rather concerned about the UN. The UN isn't exactly loved in Iraq. And there is some justification for this. How'd you like it if an organization that was in control of feeding you, in exchange for oil, gave itself kickbacks? There's a Scandal at the UN (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/17/opinion/17SAFI.html?n=Top%2fOpinion%2fEditorials%20and%20Op%2dEd%2fOp%2dEd%2fColumnists).

Scandal at the U.N.
By WILLIAM SAFIRE
The cover-up in the office of the U.N. secretary general of a multibillion-dollar financial fraud known as the Iraqi oil-for-food program is beginning to come apart.

The scandal has been brewing for years. The first I learned of it was in a New York Times Op-Ed article last April by the journalist Claudia Rosett charging that the U.N.'s secretive oversight of more than $100 billion in Iraqi oil exports and supposed humanitarian imports was "an invitation to kickbacks, political back-scratching and smuggling done under cover of relief operations."

After checking with Kurdish sources in Iraq, I reported that half the money allocated to their people had been blocked by Saddam "conspiring with bureaucrats in the U.N. Plaza."

Kofi Annan's right-hand man, Benon Sevan, had been named by the secretary general to head the oil-for-food program and report directly to him. Though he could not deny a favored French banking connection, Sevan branded as "inaccuracies" charges by Ms. Rosett and me of secrecy, citing a hundred audits in five years. But he refused to make public what companies in what countries got Saddam's largess.

Now, thanks to evidence of systematic thievery on a huge scale, discovered by free Iraqis in Baghdad, the whole rotten mess of 10 percent kickbacks on billions in contracts is coming to light. In detailed accounts, Susan Sachs in The Times, Therese Raphael in The Wall Street Journal, and Charles Laurence and Inigo Gilmore of London's Daily Telegraph have flipped over the flat rock of corruption.

Assistant Secretary General Sevan, now on an extended vacation until his retirement next month, denied through a spokesman "that I had received oil or oil monies from the former Iraqi regime" and demanded that his doubters produce documentary evidence. The Journal then produced a document in Arabic that suggests Sevan received an allocation of 1.8 million barrels of oil.

Under the U.N. bureaucracy's nose — and I suspect, in some cases, with its collusion — nearly three-quarters of the suppliers jacked up their prices to pay the 10 percent kickback. These included European manufacturers, Arab trade brokers, Russian factories and Chinese state-owned companies. Corruption's take — out of the mouths of hungry Iraqi children — was estimated by Sachs of The Times at $2.3 billion.

Hired by the U.N. to monitor these imports was a Swiss-based firm, Cotecna, which was paid out of the exorbitant fee the U.N. charged for overhead. Ms. Rosett, writing in National Review last week, notes that Kojo Annan, the secretary general's son, was once on staff and later a consultant to that tight-lipped company. In denying to The Telegraph in 1999 that he worked on the U.N. oil-for-food account, Kojo Annan said, "The decision is made by the contracts committee, not by Kofi Annan."

About that "661 compliance committee," on which the U.S. has a seat and to which the secretary general now wants to pass the buck: a U.S. official familiar with its operation tells me that "its purpose was formally to approve what the U.N. staff recommended. Only the U.S. and the U.K. experts ever put a hold on a contract, and that about items that had dual use in weaponry. Few U.S. firms got contracts, and those that did worked through middlemen to avoid the General Accounting Office."

Annan's office kept blaming the 661 committee and stonewalling the press until an irate Iraqi Governing Council hired the accountants KPMG and a law firm to investigate what its advisers told Annan was "one of the world's most disgraceful scams."

Under mounting pressure, this week the U.N. let it be known that its laughably titled Office of Internal Oversight Services would look into the matter. An internal whitewash? Not nearly good enough.

Will the Security Council appoint an independent counsel to clean house in an inept or corrupt Secretariat? No, because France and Russia had their hands in the kickback till.

But free Iraq, backed up by the U.S., is not helpless. Our Congress supplies 22 percent of the U.N. budget, and we have a right to an accounting. Chairman Henry Hyde, of House International Relations, calls this "an outrage" and will arrange for a G.A.O. briefing this week, to be followed by open hearings in April.

The U.N. can redeem its sullied reputation by helping to shape Iraq's future. To take up that challenge, it must have clean hands.

E-mail: safire@nytimes.com

Much of the time, I don't agree with Safire, especially on foreign policy, but this time I must. This is even worse than what Halliburton has done. I, of course, don't condone what they have done either, but corruption just, ummm... irks me, you know?

Kaonashi

March 19th, 2004, 1:20 am

*gasps* Oh my god. That's just...nappy. That's like taking food out of a starving person's hand and eating it yourself.

Wab

March 21st, 2004, 2:46 pm

It's not flawed. It merely assumes the truth. No matter how poorly managed, and unjustified our going into Iraq was, Iraq is now a battleground in the fight against terror. Just this reason alone is enough to oust Bush. However, Al Qaeda is goal oriented. Their goal was to make Spain back down, and they succeeded. Spain had committed themselves, and to pull back is a sign of weakness. They ran. They hightailed it outta there. The PSOE didn't run on the platform that they would re-prioritize fighting terrorism, but that they would pull out of Iraq. Good ploy, but dishonest politicking.

The Spanish aren't the only ones reconsdiering their role in Bush's quagmire:

"The Spanish are pulling out unless the UN takes over, and President Aleksander Kwasniewski of Poland says he was "taken for a ride" by the US on Saddam Hussein's supposed weapons of mass destruction.

The Koreans have baulked at moving 3000 troops to Kirkuk in the north of Iraq, because they fear for their security; and when the Japanese arrived in the south - to protect the Iraqi people - they promptly wrote a cheque for $US95 million ($126 million) for the local tribes to protect them from the Iraqi people.

Honduras is sticking with its plan to withdraw 300 soldiers in July, and when Bush recently met the Dutch Prime Minister, Jan Peter Balkenende pointedly refused to say how long he would leave his 1300 troops in Iraq."

"The US in Iraq is still demonstrating what it cannot do, not what it can do. Already it is retreating to the safety of its "hard" bases and talking up the competence of Iraq's incompetent new security and emergency services - which have had less training than the security staff at your local Target store - so that it can foist the mess on them when sovereignty is handed over on June 30.

But the US is so entrenched in Iraq that it is hard to see it being able to devote its full resources to fighting terrorism any time soon."

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/03/21/1079823239710.html

Master Qui-Gon

March 22nd, 2004, 12:11 am

As far as I'm concerned, Spain threw in the towel in the war on Terrorism. Instead of fighting back, the Spanish elected an appeaser as their new president, giving the terrorists the message that they are afraid and defeated, and that Al Queda can now change election outcomes by a simple attack.

Shame on you for giving in to bin Laden and his followers.

It's always a poor tactic to appease those who are against you, since they will usually demand more and act tougher. But why would you consider the PSOE's victory in Spain to be an appeasment to the Al-Quida?

I quote the leader of PSOE and the new prime minister of Spain, José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero: "My most immediate priority is to combat all forms of terrorism". Zapatero promises that combatting terrorism will be his main task in the time ahead.

You indicate that the recent troop removal from Iraq is appeasment to Al-Quida, but that's wrong. Removing all Spanish troops from Iraq was actually one of the main political issues of the PSOE during the entire election. The PSOE has always been critical to the war in Iraq, and mention it as "a catastrophy". Besides, Iraq has precious little to do with terrorism and Al-Quida.

You say that the terrorist acts was the cause of the change of leadership in Spain, which I actually agree with. But unlike you, AW, I do not believe the reason for this was fear. It was partly because the PP put all blame on the ETA despite the evidence supporting that Al-Quida was to blame. But another important reason was that when your country is performing actions that make people hate it so much that they are willing to die for harming it, you'll just have to stop and ask yourself: "Is this really the world I want? Where people bomb and hate each other senseless"? Obviously, the Spanish people asked themselves this.

See? This shows that changing the outcome of the election was the sole intent of the attack.

No it doesn't. Actually, there's pretty much nothing that suggests it was.

First off, the date was very symbolic for the AQ (911 days after 9/11). Also, the Spanish goverment was one of Bush's strongest supporters in foreign policies, especially in the Iraq war. It's definatly not unlikely that the election in this period actually was a coincidence.

You say that the purpose of this act of terrorism was to change the Spanish goverment from a conservative one to a socialist one. That argument just doesn't hold ground. The PP could just as well have made this as evidence that Al-Qaida and other terrorist organizations need to be struck down hard, and that it's the PP that needs to be in power to ensure the safety of Spain.

Bush did this after 9/11, and his popularity in the US soared high up. Why shouldn't the same thing happen in Spain? How could the Al-Quida know the PP would mess up completely when dealing with this incidence? It's not difficult for me to turn your own allegations against you by saying it may just as well be in Al-Qaida's interest to ensure that the PP would continue in power. But on the other hand, I believe there's a fair chance the bombings had little to do with the election, so I won't.