Who Will Fall In Love With Whom v15

[Morgoth]

the love thread guidelines

Firstly, the love thread is generally a very well debated thread with many good and challenging ideas posed by our members. The guidelines being imposed here for this thread are not designed to restrict debate in any way. They are here because the thread has become an exceptional case for staff to administer.

The problem with a thread of this type is that there is an obvious division forming between those who ship for Harry/Hermione and those who ship for Ron/Hermione, plus supporters of other ships wading in with their own ideas. Naturally, tensions within this thread have increased, forcing staff to keep an extra eye on what is being said. This has resulted in many participants of the love thread sending PMs to members of staff justifying their own cases and attempting to prove the other side is guilty of causing misbehaviour. This is not helping to resolve the issue.

What is necessary for this thread:

Shippers

- Whatever ship you support, please remember to respect and appreciate alternative ships.
- Some ideas may seem more far-fetched than others. Please remember to respond in a manner befitting of a civil community.
- JK Rowling in her usual masterful way is keeping us on our toes about who will end up with who and therefore we cannot truly know until we know. We should all note that whilst we can know a lot from what we read, we do not yet know everything. Please keep that in mind

There will be a zero tolerant approach undertaken by staff towards any form of misbehaviour from now on. Here is how it will work:

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The full support of the Administration of CoS Forums is given to all staff when warning members, but as has been the case many times with the love thread, if you wish to raise a point about a warning you have received, then please send an owl with your concerns to Morgoth or rotsiepots or lanifiel.

The terms of use as laid out for this thread are non-negotiable and will be amended as and when is necessary. All new love threads created will have these guidelines posted in the opening post. At certain points during the thread, these guides maybe posted by a member of staff to defuse any potential situation.


Thank you

The CoS Forums Staff.

--------------------END--------------------

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Have fun.

[ami padme]

As a H/L shipper, I enjoy reading these threads at times, but don't often participate (since I don't feel like jumping into the H/Hr vs. R/Hr vs. H/G debates, even though I do ship R/Hr).


But it's interesting, every now and then I'll see posts from people who ship H/L like I do, or ship some other less-debated ship...people just chime in every now and then. So, I guess I'm chiming in here, at the beginning, before things really get going.


I think Harry/Luna have the potential for their relationship to grow, whether it's a deeper friendship or a romance. Obviously, I'm personally hoping for the latter, but one of the reasons I like the two of them together is that there are a lot of different way things could go between them. Their conversation at the end is a big point for me: Harry finds he doesn't mind talking about Sirius with her after avoiding everyone else; right after Harry has had his hopes dashed twice, rather cruelly, about contacting Sirius again Luna gives him reason to continue to hope; I love the comment as Luna's walking away, etc., etc., etc. I could go on about the conversation all day! :) But there are other things as well -- Harry wanting/needing to believe that Luna did indeed see the threstrals, him feeling heartened by her ludicrous lion's hat, him telling Hermione to stop offending the people who said they believed him about Voldemort, etc., etc.


I'm not claiming they're already a couple or there's already romantic feelings there or anything like that. And, of course, JKR can and will do whatever she wishes. But I really loved Luna as a character in OotP -- and I do think there's a connection there for her and Harry to build upon in the next two books -- and I do think they could make a really wonderful couple.


Anyway, that's just my two cents. :)

[Boris_the_Bewilder]

Oh Boy, a new volume and I get to post the second comment. So here:

We don't have a clue what JKR is going to do about relationships in Book 6 or 7. In her recent interview, she was asked whether Harry and Hermione were going to end up together, and she said something to the effect that "haven't I left enough clues for you to tell?" Well, both H/H and R/H shippers will agree. H/H shippers are going to say "Yes! The clues point to them hooking up!" and R/H shippers and others with say "Yes! The clues point to them not hooking up!" That is just the problem: everything can be read different ways. We just don't know.

We can go over every syllable of Books 1-5 and still not know what is going to happen next. JKR can change things completely if she wants to — like what she did in OOTP to Ginny's character, and the 90 degree turn in what had looked (at least to me and many others) like Hermione and Ron getting together.

In particular, I don't think we have a clue as to what my favorite character — Hermione — wants in a boyfriend. Harry just doesn't ask her any personal questions, so we really don't know what is going on in her head. It is wide open as to JKR could do.

As for Harry: all we know about him is that he has been distracted by a pretty face. He is going to be very busy in Book 6 (and may be messed up) and not in the mood for any serious relationship.

I'm not saying that predicting should be easy — I'm saying we can't predict at all here. We can't draw any line from the info JKR has given us to what will happen in Books 6 and 7. We don't know what is a clue, what is a red herring, and what we are just reading into the book because we like H/H or H/R or whoever.

I like theorizing — I wouldn't be haunting these forums if I didn't. But especially in the area of shipping we are just trying to make the facts fit whatever relationship we want, not really figuring out what JKR is really going to do. We do not have "clues" in the sense of pieces of a puzzle but just a lot of pieces from which we can make any picture we like.

So enjoy what you're doing — it's certainly the most popular topic in the forms. But it's just a fun time-killer until Book 6 comes out, so don't take your ideas too seriously and don't get mad at other people.

[Mirtilla]

Ah well I'd like to respond to GryffindorGr, her post is still in LT14, but since it was an interesting debate, here we go. By the way I just wanted to thank ***van for the help, you gave already a response to this.

I don’t know, Mirtilla, but that scene really looked to me as if a mum would ask it and it would be platonic. A mum being a best friend to her son for example, -- asking how the kiss went, nosey and interested in how the romance has progressed. Even a sister can ask that question. But about Harry should have listened to Hermione so perhaps Sirius would have lived instead of died, well, even Hermione’s warnings couldn’t stop boys like Harry and Sirius for wanting to defy what would have been right or would have been wrong. Impulsiveness was Sirius, even his own mother couldn’t stop him from moving out and being different.

Well I think that here we’ve to disagree. To me in that scene Hermione didn’t look like a mother at all, rather as a best friend that for some reasons has just found out that she doesn’t like at all the fact that his best friend kissed another girl.
Now it seems that you tend to see every Hermione’s actions towards Harry and Ron as strictly “motherly”. However she, as a matter of fact, is not Ron or Harry’s mother, she’s Harry’s best and this status makes her responsible for Harry, that’s why she keep warning Harry. Of course even a mother warns his child, but even friends warn each other, does this mean that we all act motherly towards each other? I try to put it as simply as possible. Friends A warn friend B because he’s doing something wrong- does this mean that she’s acting like a mother or does that means she’s acting like a friend should act? Even a wife can warn his husband, does this mean she’s acting motherly towards him? Obviously not. As a matter of fact, when a person care for another one usually s/he warns him/her, annoys him/her, it is not only a prerogative of a mother to warn, annoy or whatever his dear one. If we’re reasoning along your lines then, everyone in Harry Potter books are acting “motherly”, Dumbledore is acting motherly because he cares deeply of Harry. McGonagall is surely acting like a mother since she warned Harry to listen to Hermione. Ron is acting motherly towards Harry because he warned him to go to Dumbledore; Ginny is acting motherly because she snapped Harry telling him that he was acting like an idiot at Christams. Now this obviously does not make sense but I write it down to give the idea of how is easy to say that X character is acting motherly. They didn’t act like a mother; the only exception is for Ms Weasley when Harry himself saw her as a sort of mother.

As for Sirius what I meant is that probably the fact that Hermione was right and even knowing the risk she followed Harry, will make Harry think and it’s something that will impact obviously their relationship. It would be interesting to see how Harry would react to this. Now from what we see in canon Harry hasn’t recover from Sirius’ death and till now he has never to talk to someone about Sirius, with the only brief exception of Luna- though he didn’t open himself, he was just listening. Clearly this situation could bring some sort of “tension”- for lack of a better word- between them. It is very possible that Harry would isolate himself form the others however at the same time there would be Hermione that would not like to be left out from Harry’s life and she would not let Harry to be alone. This situation is very possible if we, indeed, look at Ootp. Hermione was the only one to tell right in Harry’s face when he was wrong, the only one that effectively have the strength to be “against” Harry’s decision even if she knew it would have irritated Harry. That’s what makes Hermione so different from everyone else in ootp. No one went to Harry at Christams trying to get Harry out of the room- they just waited, it seems as if they didn’t care, as if they would have left Harry in his darkness, even Sirius didn’t do anything-and I mean Sirius- then it comes Hermione, she in 5 minutes- mind you 5 minutes- was able to 1) talk to Harry 2) get him out of the room. Now I wonder what it would have happened if Hermione hadn’t been at 12 Grimmauld Place. Perhaps Harry would have been in his room form another 48 hours since no one seemed interested to get him out of the room.

Actually, this was written in GoF so OotP wouldn’t count in the article. But I do agree with you in that H/hr are together more in book 5.

Yes sorry my mistake, I was in hurry when I write the response and I didn’t re-read it, I meant GoF. Anyway Rita’s article is still standing true, in fact in GoF Harry and Hermione were literally inseparable especially during the period of Ron’s absence, and it holds true even in ootp.

Actually, the whole article was blown out of proportion. Even Harry’s company with Hermione, because the same could be said that he had spent a lot of time in the company of Ron and the use of h/hr being together in the article was to blow the perspective out of proportion to create a romantic scenario between h/hr, which was not true. Harry is not a good student like Hermione, he doesn’t pay attention to detail and Hermione still corrects him. I’m not talking about the disproportional corrections between Ron and Harry, but rather we all know by canon that Harry doesn’t pay very much attention to detail in concerns with his studying and direction reading. This is why people were making fun of him in GoF, actually putting Harry in the same category with Neville as a joke.

The article wasn’t out of proportion, or at least not as you claim. First off it would be a lie saying that Harry spent a lot of time with Ron- as a matter of fact Harry and Ron spent a great deal away from each other in GoF, with the consequence of Harry and Hermione spending more and more time together. That’s why Colin innocently stated that Harry and Hermione were always together, that part of the article, though it is written in order to create a romantic scenario for Harry and Hermione, is still true, very true, indeed.

Yes Harry doesn’t pay too much attention in class, however he’s a good student, he gets good results, even in potion he’s able to get good results if Snape isn’t sit down next to him. And it’s also written in canon that the reason of why Harry wanted to do well in class was Hermione.

Cho does not even equate in the same category as Sirius and Hermione in terms of mentor and voice of reason. Hermione can equate with Sirius because even JKR has done so by demonstrating that in canon, showing us the two voices that tell Harry reminders. Cho was Harry’s love interest and didn’t even have enough time to cultivate a longer relationship in which Cho would even become a “mentor” or a person that could tell Harry what to do. As for Cho turning into Hermione in the dream, Hermione again reminds him what to do. In Quirrell scene, if I recall, wasn’t it Snape and Draco turning into one or the other? I still don’t get about Cho turning into Sirius part scenario. Dreams tap into the subconscious and what people think represents something really isn’t something that is in reality. Sometimes it’s completely opposite. I guess there are dream experts that have interpretations for these.

With the last post I was simply pointed out that Hermione and Sirius aren’t on the same exact level. Yes true Rowling compared Hermione and Sirius, which could also simply mean that Rowling was pointed out the most important persons in Harry’s life: Sirius and Hermione. However what I meant with the dream is that Hermione is not only just a voice but it’s also in Harry’s subconscious and what is interesting is the dream per se, clearly a dream about Harry’s love life- to put it clear. That’s also why Hermione and Sirius cannot be in the same level, not for nothing Rowling didn’t write Sirius appearing in the middle of a romantic dream.

I just think it’s his lazy way of picking out a present.

That’s an interesting prospective of that scene. It goes along with the theory that Ron at the Yule Ball wasn’t jealous of Hermione rather of her spotlight- as if he was left behind being Harry and Hermione in the spotlight (Harry being a champion and Hermione being the “lady” of the famous keeper). Interesting. :tu:

He is only similar to James because everyone is awed by how he looks exactly like James. Even the part where you said that Molly had to remind Sirius that he was talking to Harry and not James is the pure fact that he’s staring at Harry with the self same age at which they had been seen in Snape’s memories. They would have known eachother from early on—so the memory of their appearances are still fresh in Sirius’s mind.

Not only for the physical appearance, the scene at the beginning where Harry insulted Dudley is very similar to the scene where James deliberately insulted Snape. They both acted in the same way.

Wow! Very cool. Tell me how the canto analysis went! I just love Divine Comedy. I know I’ve got more to say but I’m super tired. I’m glad the sunshine has finally broken through.

It went very well, I find myself explain part of the text to my classmates. I made also the analysis of the 17 canto. I like too the Divine Comedy, here in Italy we studied the works for 3 years, one year for each part. Yes I know it sounds a bit weird but well it’s one- if not the most- important works of the Italian literature, not to mention a works that gave a great help to the formation of Italian language so well it’s understandable why in Italy we give it so much importance. As for the sun, ah yes I’m happy too that has finally broken through—ok now I’m getting off topic.

Cheers,
Mirtilla

[star22]

As for Harry: all we know about him is that he has been distracted by a pretty face. He is going to be very busy in Book 6 (and may be messed up) and not in the mood for any serious relationship.

His busyiness and all that he is going to go through is exactly why he needs a serious relationship. He needs someone to be there at his side who can be strong where he is weak and who can comfort him and strengthen him and occasionally knock some sense into him. He needs someone who loves him for who he is and who can live with the fame of being his girlfriend. He needs that love in order to be strong enough to handle what is going to come.

[canteurervan]

We don't have a clue what JKR is going to do about relationships in Book 6 or 7. In her recent interview, she was asked whether Harry and Hermione were going to end up together, and she said something to the effect that "haven't I left enough clues for you to tell?" Well, both H/H and R/H shippers will agree. H/H shippers are going to say "Yes! The clues point to them hooking up!" and R/H shippers and others with say "Yes! The clues point to them not hooking up!" That is just the problem: everything can be read different ways. We just don't know.

We can go over every syllable of Books 1-5 and still not know what is going to happen next. JKR can change things completely if she wants to — like what she did in OOTP to Ginny's character, and the 90 degree turn in what had looked (at least to me and many others) like Hermione and Ron getting together.

In particular, I don't think we have a clue as to what my favorite character — Hermione — wants in a boyfriend. Harry just doesn't ask her any personal questions, so we really don't know what is going on in her head. It is wide open as to JKR could do.

As for Harry: all we know about him is that he has been distracted by a pretty face. He is going to be very busy in Book 6 (and may be messed up) and not in the mood for any serious relationship.

I'm not saying that predicting should be easy — I'm saying we can't predict at all here. We can't draw any line from the info JKR has given us to what will happen in Books 6 and 7. We don't know what is a clue, what is a red herring, and what we are just reading into the book because we like H/H or H/R or whoever.


Surely, Rowling can change things; however since her plot has already revealed 3/4 of all secrets, so there are things she cannot change. Those are solid facts, or canon evidence if you may call, that she cannot change. Not that she change those facts; rather, she cannot change possible predictions later that might contradict already revealed facts.

From the surface, it looks like Ron fancies Hermione, but there has been no response from Hermione's at all so far. Hence, this is critical. Hence, R/Hr isn't solid, and changeable if you prefer.

Deep within the plot of the story, Hermione has been by Harry's side closer and closer than ever, though they still don't declare anything further since I doubt even they know much more of it themselves, espeically Harry, future plot of the story cannot contradict this. So, one can theorize possible scenarios that will further support the relationship between Harry and Hermione without doubt of Rowling's sudden change of heart. Of course, they are still only predictions; however, we still are able to narrow down to certain feasible ones, and go on from there. Since, this is solid fact, any contradiction plots from Rowling won't happen, so we will be sure that at least one of them will be likely to be true.

***van.

[FreckledApples]

everytime im here i get confused as to who is in what ship! does anyone have a list?

[GryffindorGr]

by Mirtilla
Well I think that here we’ve to disagree. To me in that scene Hermione didn’t look like a mother at all, rather as a best friend that for some reasons has just found out that she doesn’t like at all the fact that his best friend kissed another girl.
Now it seems that you tend to see every Hermione’s actions towards Harry and Ron as strictly “motherly”. However she, as a matter of fact, is not Ron or Harry’s mother, she’s Harry’s best and this status makes her responsible for Harry, that’s why she keep warning Harry. Of course even a mother warns his child, but even friends warn each other, does this mean that we all act motherly towards each other? I try to put it as simply as possible.
I know what you mean. Yes, I’m quite aware that Hermione’s not the mother of course, but just that it can be interpretated like that. The motherly act for instance. Besides, it fits right nicely with my little theory in my head about Hermione as the reincarnated Lily :D. I’ll write a nice essay as to why later. Plus who is the father. No, it’s not Ron. Lol. Perhaps I’m thinking “Evangelion” but i like the way Hermione’s character is portrayed. She has been the most enigmatic character since day 1 and her intrusion into Harry’s life seemed so pleasantly interesting. Friends A warn friend B because he’s doing something wrong- does this mean that she’s acting like a mother or does that means she’s acting like a friend should act? Even a wife can warn his husband, does this mean she’s acting motherly towards him? Obviously not. As a matter of fact, when a person care for another one usually s/he warns him/her, annoys him/her, it is not only a prerogative of a mother to warn, annoy or whatever his dear one. If we’re reasoning along your lines then, everyone in Harry Potter books are acting “motherly”, Dumbledore is acting motherly because he cares deeply of Harry. McGonagall is surely acting like a mother since she warned Harry to listen to Hermione. Ron is acting motherly towards Harry because he warned him to go to Dumbledore; Ginny is acting motherly because she snapped Harry telling him that he was acting like an idiot at Christams. Now this obviously does not make sense but I write it down to give the idea of how is easy to say that X character is acting motherly. They didn’t act like a mother; the only exception is for Ms Weasley when Harry himself saw her as a sort of mother.
Of course friends and such can warn one another. I’m not saying they can’t. It’s just how I interpret it you know? That it can be portrayed as this. Besides if Dumbledore is male, then he would be acting fatherly. Ginny’s character has never been interfering and nagging (implied by Harry’s POV), it has always been Hermione who fit that bill. Like I said before in my past posts. This is not negative to us, but to Harry, like the kid he is, doesn’t like interference from nosey girls his age, (probably cause if it was McGonagall, he’d be more respectful and afraid) and one who is so bossy that we as readers make a note of it.


As for Sirius what I meant is that probably the fact that Hermione was right and even knowing the risk she followed Harry, will make Harry think and it’s something that will impact obviously their relationship. It would be interesting to see how Harry would react to this. Now from what we see in canon Harry hasn’t recover from Sirius’ death and till now he has never to talk to someone about Sirius, with the only brief exception of Luna- though he didn’t open himself, he was just listening. Clearly this situation could bring some sort of “tension”- for lack of a better word- between them. It is very possible that Harry would isolate himself form the others however at the same time there would be Hermione that would not like to be left out from Harry’s life and she would not let Harry to be alone. This situation is very possible if we, indeed, look at Ootp. Hermione was the only one to tell right in Harry’s face when he was wrong, the only one that effectively have the strength to be “against” Harry’s decision even if she knew it would have irritated Harry. That’s what makes Hermione so different from everyone else in ootp. No one went to Harry at Christams trying to get Harry out of the room- they just waited, it seems as if they didn’t care, as if they would have left Harry in his darkness, even Sirius didn’t do anything-and I mean Sirius- then it comes Hermione, she in 5 minutes- mind you 5 minutes- was able to 1) talk to Harry 2) get him out of the room. Now I wonder what it would have happened if Hermione hadn’t been at 12 Grimmauld Place. Perhaps Harry would have been in his room form another 48 hours since no one seemed interested to get him out of the room.Oh I don’t know about that. About if Hermione wasn’t there and Harry would be in his room for another 48 hours. We can’t assume that either Ron, Ginny, Molly or Sirius won’t be knocking the door trying to find out what happened to him?
Why do you say that Hermione is the only one to tell Harry in his face that he was wrong, etc? Ginny did a good job with that too. Ron never really tells Harry right and wrong. Ron just seems to go along with what Harry wants.

Yes sorry my mistake, I was in hurry when I write the response and I didn’t re-read it, I meant GoF. Anyway Rita’s article is still standing true, in fact in GoF Harry and Hermione were literally inseparable especially during the period of Ron’s absence, and it holds true even in ootp.
No, because in OotP, there was a more notable presence between H/hr but in GoF, it was on and off, and there was that tension between Ron, Harry and Hermione. I think it call comes from Ron really because of his jealousy and feelings of inadequacy. Poor guy. All he wanted was just to enjoy company with Viktor Krum and share his bed, his Gryffindor meals, etc. He clearly admired Krum. Then here comes Harry with all his glory and what must Ron think? Would he not admire Harry in the same way? What does one do when their best friend grabs all the glory that was supposedly intended for the glorious Krum in the first place?
EDITED the part where Ron shares his bed, but rather would "offer his bed" while Ron sleeps on the floor. :) *whew*

Quote:by me:
Actually, the whole article was blown out of proportion. Even Harry’s company with Hermione, because the same could be said that he had spent a lot of time in the company of Ron and the use of h/hr being together in the article was to blow the perspective out of proportion to create a romantic scenario between h/hr, which was not true. Harry is not a good student like Hermione, he doesn’t pay attention to detail and Hermione still corrects him. I’m not talking about the disproportional corrections between Ron and Harry, but rather we all know by canon that Harry doesn’t pay very much attention to detail in concerns with his studying and direction reading. This is why people were making fun of him in GoF, actually putting Harry in the same category with Neville as a joke.
QUOTE by you:
The article wasn’t out of proportion, or at least not as you claim. First off it would be a lie saying that Harry spent a lot of time with Ron- as a matter of fact Harry and Ron spent a great deal away from each other in GoF, with the consequence of Harry and Hermione spending more and more time together. That’s why Colin innocently stated that Harry and Hermione were always together, that part of the article, though it is written in order to create a romantic scenario for Harry and Hermione, is still true, very true, indeed.
Yes it was, IMO it was. Even with Ron’s jealousy and anger, they still hung out together, in classes, meals, their dorms. I’m sure in those instances that Ron was away from Harry, Ron was still around. Note that when Draco teased Harry about the Potter badges and laughed, Ron was hanging around but didn’t try to defend Harry. He did however defend Hermione. He is always trying to defend Hermione when she is confronted by the slytherin. I’m just recalling from memory right now since I don’t have the book with me. Even at the yule ball for instance, Ron was there at the table. Ron was with Harry when they had to look for a date for the ball, etc. Yes, even when Ron was angry and jealous, he was still hanging around, even talked to Harry about when Krum arrived, how Fleur looked, and how Hagrid was crying over his family with Maxine. It was Ron who was with Harry when they hid behind to listen. Ron was noted to be with Harry a lot too so it’s not a lie, it would be a lie to say that he didn’t spend a lot of time with Ron. That time can be in anger, frustration or happiness. I seem to note his company with Harry too. Don’t worry, I noted the company with Hermione as well away from Ron when they were discussing about Ron’s inadequacy and that Hermione tried to tell Harry to take it easy on Ron because of his younger sibling syndrome among many other times.

Yes Harry doesn’t pay too much attention in class, however he’s a good student, he gets good results, even in potion he’s able to get good results if Snape isn’t sit down next to him. And it’s also written in canon that the reason of why Harry wanted to do well in class was Hermione.Oh I know he’s a good student but my opinion still holds that he is not in the same class as Hermione’s attention to detail. Except for one mistake (the runes) which just says that Hermione is only human and we all make mistakes despite our hard efforts.


With the last post I was simply pointed out that Hermione and Sirius aren’t on the same exact level. Yes true Rowling compared Hermione and Sirius, which could also simply mean that Rowling was pointed out the most important persons in Harry’s life: Sirius and Hermione. However what I meant with the dream is that Hermione is not only just a voice but it’s also in Harry’s subconscious and what is interesting is the dream per se, clearly a dream about Harry’s love life- to put it clear. That’s also why Hermione and Sirius cannot be in the same level, not for nothing Rowling didn’t write Sirius appearing in the middle of a romantic dream.Oh, I agree that Hermione is important in Harry’s life but I disagree that it’s of a romantic nature. That’s my comparison with Sirius and Hermione chucked together.

That’s an interesting prospective of that scene. It goes along with the theory that Ron at the Yule Ball wasn’t jealous of Hermione rather of her spotlight- as if he was left behind being Harry and Hermione in the spotlight (Harry being a champion and Hermione being the “lady” of the famous keeper). Interesting. I always felt that he wasn’t but hey, lots of people think he likes Hermione romantically. I just think he was jealous because Hermione got to Krum and he didn’t. I don’t know, maybe JKR wants people to believe that Ron and Hermione have this undeniable tension but for the life of me and I’m sure some others, I don’t know how they would last if they got together because they don’t match IMO. I thought people should have things in common when they get together. I thought usually in relationships, which we’ve observed through literature usually have commonalities. And I’m not talking about those two as Gryffindor bravery, both love Harry,etc kind of deal either. I don’t know. Maybe I just don’t get that part why JKR wants the public or seems to want the public to focus on R/hr. It’s either a set up or she really wants them to get together. Thankfully, for you guys (h/hrs) there are times when I’m glad you all have different analyses. *whew* this is just my honest opinion. But you know, maybe it’ll change in book 6 and Ron is this wonderful guy to Hermione and everything is all said and done and forgiven. That he’s into SPEW with Hermione, knits with her, and respects her.


Not only for the physical appearance, the scene at the beginning where Harry insulted Dudley is very similar to the scene where James deliberately insulted Snape. They both acted in the same way.
Well you know, the twins are more similar to James than Harry. Especially when they gave Dudley that thing to chew on. LOL. Harry in all this time living with Dudley, he’s never done any wise cracks like that in the same vein as his dad or the twins. Besides too, the insults can be with almost anyone, because Ron insults to people too, so does Hermione.
You can’t convince me that Harry is similar to how the twins are, or how James is, because I’ve never seen it in canon, unless you yourself find it, that Harry “nicks” things, like a thief, or that Harry makes jokes like the twins, etc. Nope. None of that. Harry is decidedly his own person and character.

It went very well, I find myself explain part of the text to my classmates. I made also the analysis of the 17 canto. I like too the Divine Comedy, here in Italy we studied the works for 3 years, one year for each part. Yes I know it sounds a bit weird but well it’s one- if not the most- important works of the Italian literature, not to mention a works that gave a great help to the formation of Italian language so well it’s understandable why in Italy we give it so much importance. As for the sun, ah yes I’m happy too that has finally broken through—ok now I’m getting off topic.
Very cool. So you had to explain it to the class?
That’s not so weird that you have to study it for 3 years for each part. Did you know that some famous artists and writers had to study the canto and the whole works of the D.Comedy as their major? As part as their life long study? So it’s no surprise really. It’s a very well in depth piece of fine literature. One that has been copied over the centuries. Well, good job. :)

[Mad Eye Mike]

This is a reply to Jo Friday's post to me from LT #14.

Again, please look more carefully at my words. I'm sorry if this is hard for you, but I prefer to stick to canon facts, and sometimes canon facts are complicated.

Before moving on, we need to establish the definitions of some of the words you’ve chosen to use in your arguments, those words being - fact[s], suggest, push, actions, intentions, actively and proactively. Here are some definitions according to several online dictionary sites, particularly, Dictionary.com.

fact
: something which is known to have happened or to exist, especially something for which proof exists, or about which there is information:
He knew for a fact that Natalie was lying.

With the definition of “fact” established, we now move onto another of your favorite words – “Push”. Seeing as how Hermione did not use physicality to get Harry and Cho together, we can dismiss all the definitions of the word that imply “physical force”. We shall focus on the only definition that applies which is to “persuade forcefully”.

push
: to forcefully persuade or direct someone to do or achieve something:
Her parents pushed her into marrying him.
The school manages to push most of its students through their exams.
If we want an answer from them by Friday, I think we're going to have to push them for it.

: to exert oneself continuously, vigorously, or obtrusively to gain an end <pushing for higher wages>
: To urge forward or urge insistently; pressure: push a child to study harder.
: To expend great or vigorous effort.
: A vigorous or insistent effort toward an end; a drive: a push to democracy.
: A provocation to action; a stimulus.

suggest
: To offer for consideration or action; propose: suggest things for children to do; suggested that we take a walk.
: To bring or call to mind by logic or association; evoke: a cloud that suggests a mushroom; a ringlike symbol suggesting unity.
: To make evident indirectly; intimate or imply: a silence that suggested disapproval.
: To serve as or provide a motive for; prompt or demand: Such a crime suggests apt punishment.

action
: The state or process of acting or doing: The medical team went into action.
: Something done or accomplished; a deed. See Usage Note at act.
: Organized activity to accomplish an objective: a problem requiring drastic action.

Intention
: A course of action that one intends to follow.
: An aim that guides action; an objective.

actively
: In an active manner; nimbly; briskly; energetically; also, by one's own action; voluntarily, not passively.
: In an active signification; as, a word used actively.

proactively
: Acting in advance to deal with an expected difficulty; anticipatory: proactive steps to prevent terrorism.

Okay, now that we’ve established the definitions of those words, let’s review what you’ve previously posted:

1. Telling someone that the girl of his dreams likes him back is the oldest and best romantic push there is.

2. Hermione suggests that Harry could ask Cho out. Harry has never thought of such a thing before. After Hermione's question, he thinks:

3. This is a major push, reminding Harry what a girl expects from a boy and preparing him to (just barely) catch on when Cho hints for him to ask her to Hogsmeade.

4. What can this be but a push? Hermione actively - proactively, even - seeks to leave Harry and Cho alone together so their romance can progress to the next step.

5. Yes, in this case out of the four, I feel that there is plenty of evidence right there in the text to observe Hermione's intentions as well as her actions. I conclude that Hermione intends to remove herself and Ron to give Harry and Cho privacy for a romance-related talk. She takes this action "proactively" because she does it as soon as Cho approaches, without any prompting from Harry or Cho, and before either has done anything romance-related. On this occasion, their first meeting after they kissed, she takes action to leave them alone together, and she patently intends to leave them alone together. No other interpretation is reasonable.

So you’ve shown us a Hermione who was “pushing” Harry onto Cho; a Hermione who “suggested” Harry ask Cho out; a Hermione who took “action” at getting Harry and Cho together; a Hermione who, as you said, on one occasion “intended” to get Harry and Cho together; and a Hermione who “actively” and “proactively” “pushed” Harry onto Cho. Yet you then say that you’re not arguing that Hermione intended to do any of those things even though you’re using words that have connotations of “deliberate intention” attached to their meanings. These are contradictions.

I said she acted in a way to LEAVE them together, not to GET them together. Can you truly not see the difference between those two phrases?

Apparently you don't remember your own post because previously you stated the following quite clearly:

This is a major push, reminding Harry what a girl expects from a boy and preparing him to (just barely) catch on when Cho hints for him to ask her to Hogsmeade.

I’m not sure how Hermione gave Harry a “major push” towards Cho, previous to H/C becoming a couple, and yet, somehow was not intending to get Harry and Cho together.

I don't know WHY Hermione chose to leave Harry and Cho alone together at that time. I DO know that she did choose to leave Harry and Cho alone together at that time. I also know that it was clearly implied in canon that she did it on purpose, that doing it could reasonably be anticipated to forward Harry's and Cho's romance, and that doing it did forward Harry's and Cho's romance. I believe that these are facts, and you have said nothing to argue that they are not, except "incorrect."

You’re misusing the word “facts” in this case. You're simply speculating. If you were simply saying that Hermione left Harry and Cho alone, then you are 100% right. Hermione did do that; that is canon. Where you’re messing up is when you argue that she was “pushing” Harry and Cho together and that with that, you’ve entered the realm of “WHY” she did it. And no one knows “WHY”, only that she did leave them alone. However, as you’ve said previously:

What can this be but a push? Hermione actively - proactively, even - seeks to leave Harry and Cho alone together so their romance can progress to the next step.

See how contradictory that is? On the one hand you’re saying that you are not arguing why Hermione did something when in fact, you did argue it. Then you state that you don’t know why Hermione did something, only to use words that imply “deliberate actions” on her part. Again, your contradictions are staggering.

And if you can't or won't understand the distinction between WHAT HERMIONE DID and WHY SHE DID IT, I don't see how you can ever distinguish between fact and interpretation. I would think that distinction would be basic to any debate, but maybe things are done differently around here.

As Jack Webb, playing Jo Friday, famously stated: "All we want are the facts, ma'am". And trust me, you're no Jo Friday.

Using your own succinct style... incorrect. These are facts.

Incorrect. This is only speculation which you’re gallantly trying to present as facts.

These are facts. The interpretation of these facts is, of course, up to the reader.

Since we've now established the definition of the word "facts", we can safely say that what you're presenting are, in fact, not.

[connielane]

So you’ve shown us a Hermione who was “pushing” Harry onto Cho; a Hermione who “suggested” Harry ask Cho out; a Hermione who took “action” at getting Harry and Cho together; a Hermione who, as you said, on one occasion “intended” to get Harry and Cho together; and a Hermione who “actively” and “proactively” “pushed” Harry onto Cho. Yet you then say that you’re not arguing that Hermione intended to do any of those things even though you’re using words that have connotations of “deliberate intention” attached to their meanings. These are contradictions.They are not contradictions. Hermione's intentions are irrelevant. Whether she intends to or not, her actions do push Harry and Cho together, in the sense that her actions are "a provocation to action" or "a stimulus." Again, it does not matter whether or not Hermione intended to do this. The fact that she brings up the subject of asking Cho out after the kiss provokes Harry to think about asking Cho out. Her dragging Ron off to the library provokes Harry to ask Cho out. Regardless of whether she intended Harry to react the way he did, her actions provoked Harry to act or to consider taking further steps in a relationship with Cho. This will continue to be true no matter how many times dictionary.com is consulted.I’m not sure how Hermione gave Harry a “major push” towards Cho, previous to H/C becoming a couple, and yet, somehow was not intending to get Harry and Cho together.Because her actions, whether she intended them to or not, provoked Harry to do something.You’re misusing the word “facts” in this case. You're simply speculating. If you were simply saying that Hermione left Harry and Cho alone, then you are 100% right. Hermione did do that; that is canon. Where you’re messing up is when you argue that she was “pushing” Harry and Cho together and that with that, you’ve entered the realm of “WHY” she did it. And no one knows “WHY”, only that she did leave them alone.Of course, no one knows why. But Jo Friday is not talking about intent, nor can I tell that she ever did. She's talking about effect, not intent. There is a vast difference.See how contradictory that is? On the one hand you’re saying that you are not arguing why Hermione did something when in fact, you did argue it. Then you state that you don’t know why Hermione did something, only to use words that imply “deliberate actions” on her part. Again, your contradictions are staggering.Dude! What can possibly be the problem for H/Hr with her being right about this?

Hermione left Harry in the Room of Requirement. That is a canon fact. Whether she intends it or not, this is a stimulus for Harry to take the next step with Cho. Hermione then asked Harry if he was going to see her again (meaning, as she later has to clarify, a date). Whether she intends this or not, this provokes Harry to think about asking Cho out. Hermione later drags Ron off to the library so that Harry and Cho can be alone. This is a canon fact (unless you prefer to believe that she dragged Ron off to the library so that she and Ron could be alone, and I don't think you do). This provokes Harry to ask Cho out, whether Hermione intends him to or not.

Hermione performs actions in the books that - regardless of her intent - "push" (as in provoke or stimulate action) Harry to pursue Cho. She doesn't have to intend that result for it to be pushing. Her actions - independent of her intentions - result in Harry's romantic pursuit of Cho. Saying that she does not do these things - meaning the simple fact of leaving him alone with Cho and asking whether he wants to see her again (for the last time, regardless of her intentions) - is contradictory to canon fact. How many more ways can this possibly be explained?As Jack Webb, playing Jo Friday, famously stated: "All we want are the facts, ma'am". And trust me, you're no Jo Friday. :rolleyes:

[Grace Granger]

Since x-ray is not here to point out who ships what, I guess I'll have to point out that I ship H/Hr.

[duynd]

hey! how can I read v14?????? I cannot find it !!!!

[sone]

What can possibly be the problem for H/Hr with her being right about this?

Maybe we should ask Jo Friday or even you since you apparently have an opinion on the matter. Is this point argued argued against H/Hr or for H/Hr? If it is for neither, then what is the point?

Hermione left Harry in the Room of Requirement. That is a canon fact. Whether she intends it or not, this is a stimulus for Harry to take the next step with Cho. Hermione then asked Harry if he was going to see her again (meaning, as she later has to clarify, a date). Whether she intends this or not, this provokes Harry to think about asking Cho out. Hermione later drags Ron off to the library so that Harry and Cho can be alone. This is a canon fact (unless you prefer to believe that she dragged Ron off to the library so that she and Ron could be alone, and I don't think you do). This provokes Harry to ask Cho out, whether Hermione intends him to or not.

I disagree. It does not provoke or stimulate Harry to do anything of the sort. Harry had no intention of kissing Cho or asking her out even though Hermione's words may of indirectly influenced him to think about it. It is Cho who told Marietta to go without her so she could kiss Harry. As Hermione asked paraphrased, "did she corner you after the meeting?" In the first scenario, Harry simply wants to wish her a Merry Christmas. In the second scenario, Harry thinks Cho is asking about whether the next DA lesson is but again it is Cho who stimulates Harry to ask her out to Hogsmeade. It is Cho who intentionally provokes and stimulates these actions. Hermione whether intentionally or not, provokes none of this.

[esicardi]

Totally agree with you sone.
Moreover, following that logic we can also claim Hermione's actions "pushed" Harry to break up with Cho, since it was her appointment with Harry on St. Valentine's Day and the close relationship between H/Hr what made Cho jealous, and ultimately leaded to H/C break up.

See you,
:cool:
esicardi

PS: Nice to start a new thread. BTW, (in case you didn't notice when looking at my sig :lol:) I am an H/Hr shipper. Go Harmony! :clap:

[connielane]

Maybe we should ask Jo Friday or even you since you apparently have an opinion on the matter. Is this point argued argued against H/Hr or for H/Hr? If it is for neither, then what is the point? It was stated in the last thread that Hermione never actively pushes Harry toward Cho. This is not true. You can argue that Hermione did not intend for her actions to provoke Harry into action, but you cannot argue that she didn't do what canon tells us plainly that she did and that those actions - whether she intended for them to or not - led to Harry's relationship with Cho. It's that simple. To me, at least. And I really don't think we can beat this horse any deader.

[sone]

It was stated in the last thread that Hermione never actively pushes Harry toward Cho. This is not true.

But it is true. Hermione's intentions as you said are irrelevant and IMO, she sure as hell didn't do it intentionally. As I already said, there is nothing she did that pushed Harry towards Cho. Cho did all the pushing herself. It was Cho who wanted this relationship and quite badly at that see as how much she wanted Harry to ask her out to Hogsmeade.

[Grace Granger]

I'm getting into the conversation all late, but that's what I do best. :)

I can see where both ships are coming from, but of course.... If Hermione's actions did lead to Harry and Cho dating then wouldn't, at some point in canon, Harry contemplate on what Hermione had said and resolve to ask Cho out. It didn't work out that way, that is why I have to agree with sone. Hermione dragging Ron off didn't provoke Harry to ask Cho out. It gave Cho the opportunity to slyly mention the next Hogsmeade trip. It was like a domino effect:

Hermione and Ron leaving ---> Cho mentioning Hogsmeade ---> Harry asking Cho out to Hogsmeade

Had she not mentioned Hogsmeade. I'm sure Harry wouldn't have asked her out.

[noddwyd]

Regardless of how Hermione's actions affected Harry and Cho's relationship, I very much doubt she approved of it. But she also would not deny Harry the chance to be happy. Her actions don't really make much sense without knowing how she felt about it as well. I don't see why everyone is trying to separate the two. Except for the fact that we don't know exactly how she felt. We know she was very businesslike in her assessment of their relationship, at least when in Harry's presense, which is, sadly, the only point of view we have.

[hymnia]

hey! how can I read v14?????? I cannot find it !!!!

I'm guesing it's accidentally been moved to a restricted section of the forum. I searched old love threads, and found thread 13, but when I clicked on the link at the end to thread 14, it said "You are not allowed to access this page..." Anyway, could a mod please check on this? I didn't get to read the last few posts, and I would like to. I suspect I'm not the only one. Thanks.

hymnia

*relurks*

[sone]

I think Harry/Luna have the potential for their relationship to grow, whether it's a deeper friendship or a romance. Obviously, I'm personally hoping for the latter, but one of the reasons I like the two of them together is that there are a lot of different way things could go between them. Their conversation at the end is a big point for me: Harry finds he doesn't mind talking about Sirius with her after avoiding everyone else; right after Harry has had his hopes dashed twice, rather cruelly, about contacting Sirius again Luna gives him reason to continue to hope; I love the comment as Luna's walking away, etc., etc., etc. I could go on about the conversation all day! :) But there are other things as well -- Harry wanting/needing to believe that Luna did indeed see the threstrals, him feeling heartened by her ludicrous lion's hat, him telling Hermione to stop offending the people who said they believed him about Voldemort, etc., etc.


Honestly, I agree with alot of this. You see, this is where I think Ron and Hermione do not work. Even in regards to Sirius being dead, they cannot agree and compromise on how to approach Harry. To me, that is pathetic. This is their best friend and Harry has to seek outside assistance and it has to be unintentional. At first, Harry did not want to talk to Luna either. I guess what I am arguing is that Harry is growing closer to both Ron and Hermione but seperately as individuals not together. The fact that Ron and Hermione have much difficulty working together as prefects I feel show this best. Like Luna, Neville and Ginny can offer Harry something that Ron and Hermione cannot. Ron and Hermione working together as friends has reached a plateau. They cannot help Harry any further as long as they refuse to compromise. Harry may of tried to force it but that won't work. Ron and Hermione have to do it on their own and as I feel their differing opinions on Sirius showed, they are not willing to do that yet. Until that happens, Harry is probably going to start depending on them even more but seperately not together. That means more of what we saw in Book Five except worse.

[ami padme]

Honestly, I agree with alot of this.

Cool, sone. In fact, I'm so happy that my post (a non-H/Hr-R/Hr-H/G post) wasn't ignored that I don't really want to put my R/Hr Hat on and argue about the rest of your post, LOL. ;)



Like Luna, Neville and Ginny can offer Harry something that Ron and Hermione cannot.

I definitely think those three have that potential, and that in their own ways, they've already offered Harry something new/extra/different (especially Neville, and Luna, IMHO).



Ron and Hermione have to do it on their own and as I feel their differing opinions on Sirius showed, they are not willing to do that yet.

Are you referring to the aftermath of Sirius' death or something else when you talk about their approach to Harry?




At any rate, you're right that Harry didn't want to talk to Luna at first for the last conversation. I really liked though that not only did he talk to her, he really got over that initial reaction. He admitted to himself (with surprise) that he cared about her predicament with her stolen things, he realized that he didn't mind talking about Sirius, and he acknowledged that he felt better for talking to her as she left. I like that conversation, because it made a discernable impact on him at a very tough time, and at a time where he was trying to shut everyone else out because of Sirius' death (and the impact of hearing the prophecy). Definitely something that could be built on in any number of ways in the next two books.

[sone]

Ron and Hermione have to do it on their own and as I feel their differing opinions on Sirius showed, they are not willing to do that yet.

Are you referring to the aftermath of Sirius' death or something else when you talk about their approach to Harry?

Chapt. 38 The Second War Begins

Ron and Hermione left the hospital wing completely cured three days before the end of term. Hermione kept showing signs of wanting to talk about Sirius, but Ron tended to make hushing noises every time she mentioned his name. Harry was still not sure whether or not he wanted to talk about his godfather yet; his wishes varied with his mood.

I'm saying that even with an issue like this, Ron and Hermione cannot agree and compromise for Harry. I can understand Harry's confusion but having it come from Ron and Hermione as it did I felt was pathetic. What I am saying is that I am glad that Luna was there and that Harry couldn't avoid her or that Ron wasn't there to hush her or that Hermione was there to chase her off. I am saying that together Ron and Hermione as they are now can no longer help Harry. They'll do better on their own.

[Hope1272]

Quote by ami padme:
At any rate, you're right that Harry didn't want to talk to Luna at first for the last conversation. I really liked though that not only did he talk to her, he really got over that initial reaction. He admitted to himself (with surprise) that he cared about her predicament with her stolen things, he realized that he didn't mind talking about Sirius, and he acknowledged that he felt better for talking to her as she left. I like that conversation, because it made a discernable impact on him at a very tough time, and at a time where he was trying to shut everyone else out because of Sirius' death (and the impact of hearing the prophecy). Definitely something that could be built on in any number of ways in the next two books.

Although I'm H/Hr and R/L, I agree about that last scene. I remember being very impressed with JKR for taking such a simple scene and being able to tell us so much about a character when I first read it. I thought it was an incredibly sweet moment that showed a side to Luna that really made me respect her character. Luna isn't silly or crazy. She simply has faith. She sees what is possible when everything else indicates impossibility.

So it's because of Luna's enormous faith in those unlikely of things, that I like R/L. I like that she sees "Ronald" where everyone else just sees plain Ron or just another Weasley. But I could live with H/L if H/Hr didn't happen.

[Hawk 92]

In book six, let us name it Harry Potter and the Mysterious Isle (for the fun of it, I’m sure that JKR has a much better name for it, but for now lets go with it), here are a few of my predictions.
There will be a ball, Yule or otherwise is really inconsequential at this point in this speculation . Ron will not hesitate this time and ask Hermione, and Hermione will go to this ball with Ron. Now throughout the year Ron will have become Captain of the Quiddich team, while Harry’s ban will be upheld. At this ball we shall see Ron with his new robes, going with Hermione, a prefect, and now the Quiddich Captain. Lets send Harry with Ginny to this dance, could be Luna (insert your preference in this case) the main point is Hr/R at this moment. Now at this dance Harry will see Ron more popular than before, with Hermione, Captain, etc. and begin to feel resentful of Ron. Something along the lines of Harry wasn’t sure what was triggering his feeling towards Ron. He had achieved more than Ron in any case. Youngest seeker in a century. Defeating Voldemort etc. And yet there still was something that Harry couldn’t quite – Insert some kind of distraction, red herring, what ever you wish to call it here. This dance will not end well for Hr/R, one of their typical fights (insert about what you wish here). At this point in the LT, the H/Hr shippers will point out that Harry was jealous of Ron going with Hermione because he is starting to care for Hermione. Hr/R shippers will say that it was just an awkward first date and things will improve. H/G and H/L shippers (your preference again) will leap for joy that they have a date to talk about. Now as I mentioned Harry will be distracted and his date won’t go very well, so H/G and H/L shippers will also say that it was an awkward first date and things will improve, but it fits in the authorial intent, etc. At this point I’m leaning more towards an H/L date in all honesty. This should more or less answer the whole ask me first, as presented in Gof.
Later in the books Harry will say something to Hermione about having liked Ron for a long time. Hermione will sputter out an answer along the lines of this: Hermione: Well....Yes....I...Really?!?!?! I.... here Ron himself will come walking in. In the LT the H/Hr shippers point out that Hermione never said that she liked Ron. Hr/R shippers say that its good enough. Debate rages on. At this point Ginny has hooked up with Neville, and Luna, umm, I don’t know what the hell is going on with Luna at this point. So she is saying some funny, slightly weird statements, and dressing unusual.
The final battle will take place on this Island and it will be between Harry, Bellatrix, and Neville. Bellatrix will have taken out Ron and Hermione a little earlier and Harry will be fit to be tied. But when Harry has a chance to kill Bellatrix he won’t. He’ll hear Hermione’s voice in his head remembering a conversation that they had earlier about showing mercy and how Harry had once been merciful to Pettigrew. Harry will hear that and spare Bella. Bella will try to curse Harry, Neville will deflect the curse back at Bella causing her to fall off a cliff to her death. Cliche, I’ll admit, but it was hard to picture Neville killing anyone.
At the train station Hermione will be talking to Harry. The conversation will drift to Harry, Neville, and Bella on the Island. Hermione will say that she knew that Harry wouldn’t kill Bella. Harry will reply that he wanted to, but that he was thinking about Hermione, and her memory helped him. At this point Harry will kiss Hermione, I’ll leave it ambiguous as to whether it is on the cheek or the lips. All of the sudden Ron has appeared, Ron turns bright red and leaves. Hr/R shipper point out that they were right, H/Hr has destroyed the Trio. H/Hr shippers point out that Ron could be embarrassed for having walked into the middle of this moment.
All flock back to the LT for several more years of debate. Mods issue occasional warnings, close occasional threads, etc.

Cheers!

[GrangerGal]

Honestly, I agree with alot of this. You see, this is where I think Ron and Hermione do not work. Even in regards to Sirius being dead, they cannot agree and compromise on how to approach Harry. To me, that is pathetic. This is their best friend and Harry has to seek outside assistance and it has to be unintentional. At first, Harry did not want to talk to Luna either. I guess what I am arguing is that Harry is growing closer to both Ron and Hermione but seperately as individuals not together. The fact that Ron and Hermione have much difficulty working together as prefects I feel show this best. Like Luna, Neville and Ginny can offer Harry something that Ron and Hermione cannot. Ron and Hermione working together as friends has reached a plateau. They cannot help Harry any further as long as they refuse to compromise. Harry may of tried to force it but that won't work. Ron and Hermione have to do it on their own and as I feel their differing opinions on Sirius showed, they are not willing to do that yet. Until that happens, Harry is probably going to start depending on them even more but seperately not together. That means more of what we saw in Book Five except worse.

Why is it pathetic that Hermione and Ron cannot approach Harry together? I am confused. I think that Hermione and Ron provide different but equally important aspects of friendship for Harry. Harry is not their child and so providing a "united front" when talking to him is not necessary. On the other hand when they had some warning they did put up a united front to talk to Harry after the snake incident. They got together with Ginny, joined forces and talked. Hermione and Ron are still young and have different ideas on how to handle things. Harry disagrees with them at times too. Harry does not always like Hermione's love of rules and completely disagrees with her when he tells her about Sirius in the MoM. He only listens b/c he has no other choice. He didn't care for her opinino. I agree that he depends on them for their individual qualities. I think we may see a more united front from all parties b/c that is what DD is trying to preach. Personally I think the division of the trio just echoes or parallels the division Voldemort creates between allies. In a way I could see JKR using it as a metaphor for the upcoming discord.

Anyway in regards to Sirius's death, I think that it could have the potential to drive a wedge in between Hermione and Harry... hear me out b/c I know a lot of people on the previous thread thought it would unite them. Basically how I feel is that Harry won't want the reminder that he messed up and inadvertently caused Sirius's death. Even if Hermione never says or thinks it, he might feel that she is saying I told you so in her heart. I don't think she will think that but Harry might feel it. I think he might turn to Ron or even Luna.

[rurufan13]

Okay, I already know Harry's love life is messy, and I don't think Ron will help. In the 5th book it seeemed obvious to me Ron is pushing 4 Harry to go out with Ginny, still not sure exactly why he really wants them to be together though. I think maybe Ron doesn't want Harry to ruin his chances with Herminone (Come on isn't it obvious they like each other?) but I don't think he has anything to worry about Harry is so not into Hermione like that!!! I do hope Harry goes with Ginny! :rotfl: Also, (reasons now 4 Hermione and Ron dating!) in the 2nd or possibly 1st movie special features the director said J.K Rowling gave him hints about what will happen in future books and he used these hints in the movie, so, 2nd movie, Hermione and Ron were having the hugging incedent right? Well, I think (very strongly on this) that they really love each other! Also, 3rd movie commercials Hermione and Ron held hands, reliezed what they were doing and then steped away. There is some good hints in the books also! Like Ron got mad when Hermione went with Krum, can you say jealousy or what? Oh but if they do get together I will be happy! I am always Hermione while roleplaying and I love Ron! SNAPS 4 HERMIONE AND RON IF THEY GET TOGETHER! :clap: :clap: :clap:

[ami padme]

Interesting quote, sone. I' don't find Ron and Hermione's confusion quite so problematic, since Harry was himself confused. I'm not sure that if they were both determined to speak to him about Sirius or both determined not to bring it up that either approach would have made Harry feel better...at least, I don't think that the sole fact that they used a joint approach would have made a real difference when Harry wasn't sure what he wanted anyway.



What I am saying is that I am glad that Luna was there and that Harry couldn't avoid her or that Ron wasn't there to hush her or that Hermione was there to chase her off.

That I agree with. I do think it was important that the two were able to talk with no one else around...Ron and Hermione were so skeptical and dismissive of Luna for much of the book, that even if things have changed (because of the MoM fight, or Harry's Quibbler article) I still think either one or both of them would have jumped in, thinking they're helping him, when their interference would have been the last thing he needed, because I think he really needed that talk with Luna.



I remember being very impressed with JKR for taking such a simple scene and being able to tell us so much about a character when I first read it. I thought it was an incredibly sweet moment that showed a side to Luna that really made me respect her character. Luna isn't silly or crazy. She simply has faith. She sees what is possible when everything else indicates impossibility.

That's sincerely one of the biggest reasons I like the possibility of a Harry/Luna ship. I think Harry needs someone like that. Harry has also been through people thinking he's strange, weird, evil or crazy at various times -- there have been times where Harry himself wondered what was going on with him, on top of taking it hard when others doubt and shun him. Not only does Luna provide a sort of hope for Harry, in that she experiences some of the same "out there" things he does, and believes him about things people doubt Harry on...she is also an interesting example for him, in that she doesn't care what people think about her, her eccentricities, or her strange beliefs. That's a dynamic I'd like to see explored between the two of them.

[BabyMars]

LOL at Hawk! :rotfl:

[sone]

Why is it pathetic that Hermione and Ron cannot approach Harry together?

The answer is in my posts. The incident at 12G doesn't help because Ron and Hermione did not have differing views on talking to Harry. Hermione wanted to talk to him, Ron wanted to talk to him, Ginny wanted to talk to him. There was not any need to compromise as the goal was already shared. That is what makes the Sirius argument between Harry and Hermione so good. They both have differing views yet meet each other half way. Yes, Harry and Hermione have many differences but their ability and willingness to compromise is what makes them I think to be such a great potential couple. It is like how they were chosen for their houses. Harry could of easily been in Slytherin and Hermione in Ravenclaw (symbolizing their differences) but they both were put in Gryffindor (symbolizing what they both have in common).

Interesting quote, sone. I'm not sure that I find Ron and Hermione's confusion quite so problematic, since Harry was himself confused. I'm not sure that if they were both determined to speak to him about Sirius or both determined not to bring it up that either approach would have made Harry feel better...at least, I don't think that the sole fact that they used a joint approach would have made a real difference when Harry wasn't sure what he wanted anyway.

We will never know, they didn't try to compromise which I think is pathetic. The quote says it all. One was eager to talk about Sirius, the other was not and they were not willing to put aside how they personally felt about the situation to try and help Harry. I could understand Harry's confusion. Ron and Hermione were not confused. They simply disagreed on how to approach Harry which is the usual. They can help Harry a great deal individually but not together. In fact, it seems best if Harry does go somewhere else for assistance.

[GrangerGal]

First I would like to say - Babymars you and I are on the same page b/c Hawk - I am cracking up! If your scenario happens, I will go INSANE! We all will and I pity the mods if that happens. ;)


Onto debate

I remember being very impressed with JKR for taking such a simple scene and being able to tell us so much about a character when I first read it. I thought it was an incredibly sweet moment that showed a side to Luna that really made me respect her character. Luna isn't silly or crazy. She simply has faith. She sees what is possible when everything else indicates impossibility.

That's sincerely one of the biggest reasons I like the possibility of a Harry/Luna ship. I think Harry needs someone like that. Harry has also been through people thinking he's strange, weird, evil or crazy at various times -- there have been times where Harry himself wondered what was going on with him, on top of taking it hard when others doubt and shun him. Not only does Luna provide a sort of hope for Harry, in that she experiences some of the same "out there" things he does, and believes him about things people doubt Harry on...she is also an interesting example for him, in that she doesn't care what people think about her, her eccentricities, or her strange beliefs. That's a dynamic I'd like to see explored between the two of them.

Personally I don't ship H/G or H/L completely. In fact part of me feels that Harry might have to end up alone b/c of the prophecy and his lot in life as being always alone and only relying on himself. However that last conversation is the biggest and greatest support I have seen for Harry with a girl. If you look at the trio, Ron and Hermione fulfill his sense of adventure, emotion, intellect, stregth, fun, and even family. But they do not provide spirituality. Luna gives Harry the one thing he is truly missing from the trio - a sense of faith/hope. I am not saying that Hermione and Ron lack hope or faith and I am not even talking about "God" but more a knowledge or the hope of knowledge for something greater. Something for Harry to believe in for his parents and for Sirius. Luna provided that comfort and that need at the end of book 5. That was when I really cried about Sirius's death and all that Harry went through. I still like the idea of Ginny (she provides a family aspect) and the idea that Harry wil end up alone. But I have to say, I feel a connection between Luna and Harry. They have both loved and lost. They are both very intelligent (she is in Ravenclaw) and they are both wonderful wizards.

[canteurervan]

What I am saying is that I am glad that Luna was there and that Harry couldn't avoid her or that Ron wasn't there to hush her or that Hermione was there to chase her off.
That I agree with. I do think it was important that the two were able to talk with no one else around...Ron and Hermione were so skeptical and dismissive of Luna for much of the book, that even if things have changed (because of the MoM fight, or Harry's Quibbler article) I still think either one or both of them would have jumped in, thinking they're helping him, when their interference would have been the last thing he needed, because I think he really needed that talk with Luna.

Me too. Though I'm surprised that Rowling was willing to let Luna help ease up a bit pain off Harry, and help Harry understands something out of his chaotic thoughts at the moment.

However, as far as we can guess or even expect, I don't see Luna being any further involved in Harry's internal conflicts. As we recalled, Harry didn't tell or reveal anything of his thoughts to Luna when they talked. All Luna did was express her understandings of Harry's state of pain, and all Harry did was listen and realize things by himself, if he did at all.

I would have believed that Luna will go further if Rowling let Harry express his emotions at that conversation since Harry won't later, if you understand Harry's character.

I remember being very impressed with JKR for taking such a simple scene and being able to tell us so much about a character when I first read it. I thought it was an incredibly sweet moment that showed a side to Luna that really made me respect her character. Luna isn't silly or crazy. She simply has faith. She sees what is possible when everything else indicates impossibility.

That's sincerely one of the biggest reasons I like the possibility of a Harry/Luna ship. I think Harry needs someone like that. Harry has also been through people thinking he's strange, weird, evil or crazy at various times -- there have been times where Harry himself wondered what was going on with him, on top of taking it hard when others doubt and shun him. Not only does Luna provide a sort of hope for Harry, in that she experiences some of the same "out there" things he does, and believes him about things people doubt Harry on...she is also an interesting example for him, in that she doesn't care what people think about her, her eccentricities, or her strange beliefs. That's a dynamic I'd like to see explored between the two of them.

I don't think so, though. As much as I'm on the same page of impression with Luna's sudden behaviour we didn't expect, the event of Harry's and Luna's conversation was shallow just enough for us to see that Harry will recover later, sooner or later. That was just a chance that Rowling took to explain something about the mystery of death of the wizarding world, especially the red herring for the myterious veil.

Besides, Luna isn't intersted in Harry for sure. I don't have the books to do quoting to prove it right now; however, as far as I recall after reading for a dozen times of OotP, I haven't got a hint of some kind of connection between Luna and Harry at all. They both can see Threstrals since they both have seen death, that's all. But, that they both can hear whispers from the veil is something Rowling is kept in store for us later about the mystery of death of the wizarding world. This has nothing to do with their relationship; besides, I don't believe that Harry will fall for someone who has some weird connection with the mystery of his godfather death. It's too forceful to pair up. More importantly is that Harry has never been interested in Luna. I bet Ginny is even better candidate than Luna, but I already rejected that possibility in my eaerlier posts.

Luna is still a mysteriuos character, as far as we know. But, one thing we know from OotP, Luna is very smart and insistent on her belief. However, she is one very well-hidden and withdrawn character. Luna never gives detailed answer to any questions involving her life or her personal things. All she does is explain the over-imaginative-non-existent-magical-animals to express her weirdness in beliefs. That definitely ticks everyone off, especially Ron. One thing makes me wonder is when she first met Ron on the train, while Ron had no idea who she was, she made no weird commotion to address Ron without hesitation like she knew him very well. That should counts for something, should it?!!!


***van.

[FreckledApples]

Besides, Luna isn't intersted in Harry for sure.
you can't say that as you are not JKR
I don't have the books to do quoting to prove it right now; however, as far as I recall after reading for a dozen times of OotP, I haven't got a hint of some kind of connection between Luna and Harry at all.
that is your view--i, however, felt a huge connection with them that ALMOST made me start shipping it.
More importantly is that Harry has never been interested in Luna.
as far as romantic intrest goes- i can't recall harry ever being interested in hermione either! and she's been around a lot longer and people have thought they were going out, but not once did harry consider that he had reomantic feelings for her. i know most h/hr shippers say he was distracted by cho, but couldn't the same thing be said for every girl he's talked to?

That definitely ticks everyone off, especially Ron. One thing makes me wonder is when she first met Ron on the train, while Ron had no idea who she was, she made no weird commotion to address Ron without hesitation like she knew him very well. That should counts for something, should it?!!!
especially ron?!? no no no i think that should say especially hermione!! shes the one that gets mad at luna! ron just thinks shes wacko as does everyone else!
and also i think they sorta did know each other cause in book 4 we find out "the lovegoods" live near the weasley's. but don't think they ever really socialized(sp?) plus she is sorta friends with ginny so ginny must talk about ron sometimes. and everyone else in the books are like "hey a weasley" when they see ron, so its not that unusual especially sence she lives by him.

[Quaffle]

you can't say that as you are not JKR


I was under the impression that Luna likes Ron, not Harry.

Luna seems more interested in Ron, especially when she mentions that she would've like to have gone with him to the Yule Ball and laughing excessively at his joke about being a prefect.

[playmaker9]

you can't say that as you are not JKR

sorry kiddo, but i gotta agree w/ apples here.

that is your view--i, however, felt a huge connection with them that ALMOST made me start shipping it.

they did have a great connection at the end, but not enough to warrant a ship, IMO. sure, the base for it is there, but the same goes for h/hr, h/g, and all other ships. the two biggest things that point away from h/l are

1)her apparent intrest in ron
2)we know very little about her, as she's only been in one book

as far as romantic intrest goes- i can't recall harry ever being interested in hermione either! and she's been around a lot longer and people have thought they were going out, but not once did harry consider that he had reomantic feelings for her. i know most h/hr shippers say he was distracted by cho, but couldn't the same thing be said for every girl he's talked to?

i agree that, to harry, he has never shown romantic interest in her. things that seem natural to him that he does w/ hermione can be viewed by others as romantic, but to harry he's just being normal and comfortable around her.

i can see where a h/l relationship is possible, much more so than a h/g, but i am still a firm believer in h/hr. there definitely aren't enough h/l arguments out there though, i'd love to see some more that we can debate on.

cheers!

[FreckledApples]

I was under the impression that Luna likes Ron, not Harry.

Luna seems more interested in Ron, especially when she mentions that she would've like to have gone with him to the Yule Ball and laughing excessively at his joke about being a prefect.
yes i understand but you can't say for sure because it isn't for sure. i think she might have had a crush on ron but i don't think they are going to get together. as i stated before, she is friends with ginny and i think ginny talked to her about ron. i think luna feels quite sorry for ron. she knows he poor, overshadowed, and is (or was) jealous about hermione and krum. i think she got this from growing up around him and talking with ginny. but i think a little crush had smething to do with it too. lol this reminds me very much of a boy i used to have a crush on in grade school...
come to think of it - the reason i ship r/hr so much and so strongly is the way i interpret their relationship. but i just realized i intrpret their relationship this way because i was in one like that! ha! wow... hey maybe the bickering couple isn't such a bad relationship to have...

there definitely aren't enough h/l arguments out there though, i'd love to see some more that we can debate on.
i agree completly thats why i don't ship them

[Rowena Ravenclaw]

I was under the impression that Luna likes Ron, not Harry.

I know I've said this before, but I get the strong impression that Ron's behavior in the DoM dealt a serious blow to Luna's crush. Luna's not oblivious to what people mean when they call her "Looney Lovegood," and that's just what Ron did. We can't say for certain that it hurt her, but it wouldn't surprise me if she were disappointed in him.

[jordmundt6]

Row--Hey surprise, I'm back. What happened? Why are we on this volume early? Perhaps I don't want to know. I did catch Lani's humor--priceless. Always has been, even back whenhe had the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles avatars.

Anyway--back on topic. Luna always seemed imperturbable before the DoM. And we might think her so still if we didn't have her conversation with Harry. I can see where you're coming from about Ron's babbling being a serious blow to her crush but I think the more important thing to note is the crush IS undeniably there. She seemed totally indifferent to her role as something of a social outcast until she heard Ron call her "Loony Lovegood" after she saved his rear and probably his life in the DoM. That comment provoked her only response ever to the name-calling which she'd borne for at least four years. You're way of looking at things is valid, but the signs also point to the crush's continued existence.

[Hawk 92]

LOL at Hawk! :rotfl:

First I would like to say - Babymars you and I are on the same page b/c Hawk - I am cracking up! If your scenario happens, I will go INSANE! We all will and I pity the mods if that happens. ;)

Of all the speculation and predicitions in that post, I'd say

Debate rages on

All flock back to the LT for several more years of debate. Mods issue occasional warnings, close occasional threads, etc.

aren't really going out too far on a limb.

Just to chime in about Ron/Luna and the whole DoM scene. While I don't think that Ron was being nice to Luna, I think that she would have to judge Ron pretty hard considering he'd been hit by a spell. Also I've never been 100% sure of the whole Luna looking to Ron as some kind of hero argument. Luna seems, for all her oddities, to have a pretty good POV on things.
Umm, didn't she also say that people call her Loony, but it doesn't bother her?

Cheers!

[Mad Eye Mike]

connielane, I see you're also confused with the definitions and usage of the words "Push", "Actions", etc. Both you and Jo Friday are using words and presenting evidence that denote "intention" on Hermione's part and then you contradict those very statements. :lol:

[Rowena Ravenclaw]

I can see where you're coming from about Ron's babbling being a serious blow to her crush but I think the more important thing to note is the crush IS undeniably there. She seemed totally indifferent to her role as something of a social outcast until she heard Ron call her "Loony Lovegood" after she saved his rear and probably his life in the DoM. That comment provoked her only response ever to the name-calling which she'd borne for at least four years.

I see what you mean. The comment wouldn't sting as severely as it apparently did if she didn't still have lingering feelings. The question is whether or not she's going to be able to let it slide, and I'm not so sure she will.

While I don't think that Ron was being nice to Luna, I think that she would have to judge Ron pretty hard considering he'd been hit by a spell.

Yes, but although we don't know the exact nature of the spell, it seemed to lower Ron's critical thinking skills to the point where he said whatever came to mind. Knowing he wouldn't have said it (to her face, at least, as he does call her "Looney" in Harry and Hermione's presence once) under normal circumstances won't change any nagging doubts that he might be thinking it.

Also I've never been 100% sure of the whole Luna looking to Ron as some kind of hero argument.

I don't think she saw him as a hero, either. What I think she saw him as, at least in part, was someone more like her, someone who didn't like dancing and had to deal with ridicule on a fairly regular basis ("Weasley Is Our King"). Hearing him express the same sentiments as everyone else would have shattered that image.

Umm, didn't she also say that people call her Loony, but it doesn't bother her?

Not that I recall. Certainly not in the scene with Harry. She tells him about people calling her "Looney," he starts feeling really sorry for her (an indication of some of her disappointment in Ron showing through, perhaps?) and offers to help her find her stuff, and then she smiles (or cheers up) and tells him it'll come back. End of that part of the conversation.

[sone]

Not that I recall. Certainly not in the scene with Harry. She tells him about people calling her "Looney," he starts feeling really sorry for her (an indication of some of her disappointment in Ron showing through, perhaps?) and offers to help her find her stuff, and then she smiles (or cheers up) and tells him it'll come back. End of that part of the conversation.

Chapt. 38 The Second War Begins

"How come people hide your stuff?" he asked her, frowning.

"Oh… well…" she shrugged. "I think they think I'm a bit odd, you know. Some people call me 'Loony' Lovegood, actually."

Harry looked at her and the new feeling of pity intensified rather painfully.

"That's no reason for them to take your things," he said flatly. "D'you want help finding them?"

"Oh, no," she said, smiling at him. "They'll come back, they always do in the end. It was just that I wanted to pack tonight."

[ami padme]

We will never know, they didn't try to compromise which I think is pathetic...In fact, it seems best if Harry does go somewhere else for assistance.

We don't know that they didn't try, just because they didn't agree on what to do. As for going elsewhere, I think it depends on the situation, and what Harry's looking for. Different situations call for different things.


In fact part of me feels that Harry might have to end up alone b/c of the prophecy and his lot in life as being always alone and only relying on himself.

I can definitely see Harry as the Lone Hero. I still think that's a possibility.


Luna gives Harry the one thing he is truly missing from the trio - a sense of faith/hope...Something for Harry to believe in for his parents and for Sirius. Luna provided that comfort and that need at the end of book 5. That was when I really cried about Sirius's death and all that Harry went through...But I have to say, I feel a connection between Luna and Harry. They have both loved and lost. They are both very intelligent (she is in Ravenclaw) and they are both wonderful wizards.

Agreed. :)



However, as far as we can guess or even expect, I don't see Luna being any further involved in Harry's internal conflicts. As we recalled, Harry didn't tell or reveal anything of his thoughts to Luna when they talked. All Luna did was express her understandings of Harry's state of pain, and all Harry did was listen and realize things by himself, if he did at all.
I would have believed that Luna will go further if Rowling let Harry express his emotions at that conversation since Harry won't later, if you understand Harry's character.

Well, I don't think that what happened was a small thing, even if Harry didn't pour his heart out to Luna about Sirius or how he was feeling. Luna still helped Harry, and I think that's significant enough that it won't be completely dropped going forward (even if they aren't going to be romantically involved). I also don't think that because Harry didn't open up then, it precludes the possibility of opening up later. Harry's got a lot to process through from the end of OotP.


Besides, Luna isn't intersted in Harry for sure.

We don't know that...we also don't know that she can't develop an interest going forward even if she doesn't have one now.


But, that they both can hear whispers from the veil is something Rowling is kept in store for us later about the mystery of death of the wizarding world. This has nothing to do with their relationship; besides, I don't believe that Harry will fall for someone who has some weird connection with the mystery of his godfather death.

How do you know it has nothing to do with a future relationship? Why can't he fall for the girl who knows about the voices behind the veil? I don't think either of those assertions are certainties at all.


More importantly is that Harry has never been interested in Luna.

Again, how is that supposed to be known for sure? How can anyone know that he won't develop an interest in her?

One of the reasons I like H/L's potential as a couple is because she did have an impact on him in Book 5. I'm not saying anything romantic's happened, of course, just that I think there's a good foundation there to potentially build upon. I don't think Harry's disinterested in Luna in a general sense (and it's not only the final conversation that makes me think that), and from OotP, there are plenty of ways things could go.



As for the question of Luna's crush on Ron...I don't care for R/L as a potential couple, so that probably colors my thinking a little. ;) Even if she did have a crush on Ron coming into Book 5, I saw little throughout the course of the year that made me think that the crush was strong (and would stick through the next couple books), had intensified (after them spending more time moving in similar circles in Book 5), or was reciprocated (Ron just seems to think she's Loony as far as I can tell). But that's just my two cents.

[sone]

We will never know, they didn't try to compromise which I think is pathetic...

We don't know that they didn't try, just because they didn't agree on what to do.

Yes, we do know.

Chapt. 38 The Second War Begins

Ron and Hermione left the hospital wing completely cured three days before the end of term. Hermione kept showing signs of wanting to talk about Sirius, but Ron tended to make hushing noises every time she mentioned his name. Harry was still not sure whether or not he wanted to talk about his godfather yet; his wishes varied with his mood.

[Hawk 92]

Yes, but although we don't know the exact nature of the spell, it seemed to lower Ron's critical thinking skills to the point where he said whatever came to mind. Knowing he wouldn't have said it (to her face, at least, as he does call her "Looney" in Harry and Hermione's presence once) under normal circumstances won't change any nagging doubts that he might be thinking it.

So its basically the same spell he got hit with right before the Yule Ball.

I don't think she saw him as a hero, either. What I think she saw him as, at least in part, was someone more like her, someone who didn't like dancing and had to deal with ridicule on a fairly regular basis ("Weasley Is Our King"). Hearing him express the same sentiments as everyone else would have shattered that image.

Although since he is best friends with The Harry Potter I don't think that Luna would quite share those sentiments, as you do. Actually Ron puts up with little ridicule and seems to be fairly popular and well liked. Not quite sure I'm following you RR. True he does take a fair amount from Slytherin, but that's hardly the same as Luna. She gets it from all houses, her own included.

Not that I recall. Certainly not in the scene with Harry. She tells him about people calling her "Looney," he starts feeling really sorry for her (an indication of some of her disappointment in Ron showing through, perhaps?) and offers to help her find her stuff, and then she smiles (or cheers up) and tells him it'll come back. End of that part of the conversation.

You are correct.

Still if I follow you thoughts here RR, how is Hr/R standing at all?

Cheers!

[ami padme]

sone --

I was only saying that we don't know that they didn't try to reach a compromise. The passage says that Harry saw they disagreed (Hermione wanted to talk Sirius; Ron didn't). Maybe they spent every moment not around Harry having the equivalent of the Camp David talks, trying in vain to reach an accord...? ;) How do we know they didn't try?


In any event, I don't have a problem with them disagreeing about how to approach Harry -- Harry himself had different reactions to both approaches, depending. And I don't know that a unified front (either way) would have made a real difference.

[Rowena Ravenclaw]

Hermione kept showing signs of wanting to talk about Sirius, but Ron tended to make hushing noises every time she mentioned his name.

She didn't fight him enough to actually get the question out, did she? Seems like some form of agreement to me.

So its basically the same spell he got hit with right before the Yule Ball.

:lol: No. If it were, you wouldn't have suggested not holding it against him. :p

And if I'm understanding your train of thought correctly, the reason my argument against R/L can't be used against R/Hr is that Hermione recognized Ron's comments at the Yule Ball, hurtful though they might have been (though not nearly as hurtful as some interpretations make out, given that they were on speaking terms the next day), as a cover for his jealousy. Ron's comments to Luna were, as far as she knew (and, for that matter, as far as we can tell), his honest opinion.

[sone]

I was only saying that we don't know that they didn't try to reach a compromise.....And I don't know that a unified front (either way) would have made a real difference.

If we do not have any passages that said they did, then it cannot argued that they did or tried. That is just speculating. Also, you are still missing the point. I'm not arguing that compromising would of helped Harry, just that their refusal to do so was pathetic.

She didn't fight him enough to actually get the question out, did she? Seems like some form of agreement to me.

What question? It said, Hermione kept showing signs of wanting to talk about Sirius....in any case, it does not sound like an agreement to me. One wants to talk about Sirius, the other does not. With agreements like that, who needs disagreements?

[ami padme]

That is just speculating.

Certainly. :) I don't think there's anything to do except speculate in this case, since we don't see or hear anything about either Hermione or Ron's thought processes, possible discussions, etc., (separately or together) that led to the attempts to talk and the hushing.



Also, you are still missing the point. I'm not arguing that compromising would of helped Harry, just that their refusal to do so was pathetic.

Oh, okay. Then I disagree. It's hard to know how to help someone in Harry's position, and both their positions were valid.

[sone]

Certainly. :) I don't think there's anything to do except speculate in this case, since we don't see or hear anything about either Hermione or Ron's thought processes, possible discussions, etc., (separately or together) that led to the attempts to talk and the hushing.

But not a single bit of that is at all relevant since it was written down what we needed to know. We have canon, there is no need to speculate in this case. If there was more to it, there would have been Hermione or Ron's thought processes, possible discussions, etc., (separately or together) that led to the attempts to talk and the hushing **** to talk about in the first place.

It's hard to know how to help someone in Harry's position, and both their positions were valid.

Of course it is difficult, that is why they needed to work together and not against each other. Their inability to combine positions we know for certain did not help Harry at all. They could have at least tried but they didn't. They assumed that only their position was right and left it at that.

[ami padme]

I'm not sure what you mean. That if Ron and Hermione had any discussion about how to approach Harry we'd have to see it (or hear about it later)? Why?


They could have at least tried but they didn't. They assumed that only their position was right and left it at that.

Maybe we'll have to agree to disagree here, otherwise this will get circular...I don't see how we know for certain that they didn't try, or what their assumptions were or how they acted on them. And I don't see the inherent necessity or goodness in having a unified approach -- and I don't see what's inherently wrong with them disagreeing.

[sone]

I'm not sure what you mean. That if Ron and Hermione had any discussion about how to approach Harry we'd have to see it (or hear about it later)? Why?

Yes, so we know that they did have a discussion about it. You can speculate, but in the book it only says that Hermione kept showing signs of wanting to talk about Sirius, but Ron tended to make hushing noises every time she mentioned his name. To bring up anything other than that is mere speculation and thus irrelevant.

Maybe we'll have to agree to disagree here, otherwise this will get circular...I don't see how we know for certain that they didn't try, or what their assumptions were or how they acted on them. And I don't see the inherent necessity or goodness in having a unified approach.

You do not see the inherent necessity or goodness in compromising in an attempt to help out a friend? It is simple. Talk about Sirius, if Harry says doesn't want to talk about Sirius or shows any sign that he does not want to talk about Sirius, then do not bring up the subject again. If he does want to talk about it, then they can help him start to feel better by just being there to listen and help lessen some of the tension. Either way, Ron and Hermione would both get to try what they feel is best. Hermione kept showing signs of wanting to talk about Sirius, but Ron tended to make hushing noises every time she mentioned his name. That is how we know.

[ami padme]

anything other than that is mere speculation and thus irrelevant.

I think this is just a basic difference of opinion...I don't find speculation irrelevant, and don't think it's unreasonable to offer that Ron and Hermione might have had a conversation "off-screen". I'm not saying they definitely did in this instance, just that we don't have anything to go on to say either way.


And even if they absolutely never had a conversation, I don't see the disagreement as a big sign pointing to problems with either of their friendships with Harry, or with their friendship/potential romance with one another.


Like I said before, maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree on this point...

[sone]

I think this is just a basic difference of opinion...I don't find speculation irrelevant...

I do when the book make the speculating unneccessary. I mean why speculate what happened off screen when we want to know what happened, happened on screen? Hell, that is like trying to say what we speculate is more relevant than the book.

And even if they absolutely never had a conversation, I don't see the disagreement as a big sign pointing to problems with either of their friendships with Harry, or with their friendship/potential romance with one another.

Of course you don't see the disagreement as a big sign pointing to problems. You just told me that you don't see the inherent necessity or goodness in having a unified approach. Or as I see it, the inherent necessity or goodness in compromising in an attempt to help out a friend. Relationships are all about compromising. If you cannot compromise, then your relationship is a sad one.

[jordmundt6]

Okay--what's going on here? Sone--It looks like Hermione is starting from your "compromise" position and Ron is killing it. How is that Hermione's fault? Help me out, I don't get it.

The problem with the hope and faith idea for Luna is, he still doesn't believe her after talking to her. His thought process is--it's a nice idea, but it's Luna talking so can I even put any stock in it? It got him over the hump of thinking about other things but Luna is, at most, an object of pity.

[PrettyVeela]

they did have a great connection at the end, but not enough to warrant a ship, IMO. sure, the base for it is there, but the same goes for h/hr, h/g, and all other ships.

h/l is my second ship and what you just said is the reason why I ship it, because the BASE is there. If they get together in 6 and 7, I know the base of it started in book 5.


the two biggest things that point away from h/l are

1)her apparent intrest in ron
2)we know very little about her, as she's only been in one book

1. I agree that she seems to have some sort of interest in Ron, but whether it's romantic or not, I have no idea. However, I do notice that even if she DID have a romantic interest, the one boy that truly shows her any interest at all, is Harry.

2. See that's the thing about Luna, after only one book, I truly think that Luna has been more introduced than some of the bit players that have been in all 5 books in some shape or form. We know about her family, how she's treated at school, and for some wierd reason, J.K. chose Luna, after only ONE book, to contribute in one of the most important and action packed chapters(Department of Mysteries) with 5 already established characters.



So taking all of that in, a reader can't help but wonder what the purpose of Luna is.(Romantic or not). I do think she has a good chance of being a romantic interest for Harry, but I also think that she's going to turn out to be a good friend of Harry's and be heavily involved in book 6 and 7(along with the rest of the Fantasic Six).

[Hawk 92]

:lol: No. If it were, you wouldn't have suggested not holding it against him. :p

You know RR. I can't remember a post in which I've suggested holding the Yule Ball against Ron. ;) I remember a couple in which I questioned the proper placement of his jealousy. But not one in which I held it against him.

And if I'm understanding your train of thought correctly, the reason my argument against R/L can't be used against R/Hr is that Hermione recognized Ron's comments at the Yule Ball, hurtful though they might have been (though not nearly as hurtful as some interpretations make out, given that they were on speaking terms the next day), as a cover for his jealousy. Ron's comments to Luna were, as far as she knew (and, for that matter, as far as we can tell), his honest opinion.

I don't think you're quite on my train of thought. But I do think you're at the station. :) I think that Luna is a bit more forgiving. Based on the fact that Ron's rudeness did not phase her during the carriage ride, at which point he had not been hit by a enchantment. I think Luna knows that people other than Ron call her Loony. Perhaps Luna even knows that some of the stuff she does is a bit loony. I think that she can just accept that and be happy being herself. That is why I think that R/L could be a nice ship. I think that Luna could love and accept Ron for who Ron is. Therefore Ron can simply be himself.
Also we really don't know if Luna heard Ron say that to Harry. After all he did whisper it to him. I guess that all depends on how much credit you want to give to Ron's ability to whisper.

Cheers!

[sone]

Okay--what's going on here? Sone--It looks like Hermione is starting from your "compromise" position and Ron is killing it. How is that Hermione's fault? Help me out, I don't get it.

Chapt. 38 The Second War Begins

Ron and Hermione left the hospital wing completely cured three days before the end of term. Hermione kept showing signs of wanting to talk about Sirius, but Ron tended to make hushing noises every time she mentioned his name. Harry was still not sure whether or not he wanted to talk about his godfather yet; his wishes varied with his mood.

Hermione wants to talk to Harry about Sirius. Ron on the other hand does not. What I am saying, is that Ron and Hermione are not compromising with each other. In this case, Hermione kept showing signs of wanting to talk about Sirius. She basically kept trying the same approach. Ron kept "killing it" as you said. It is not Hermione's fault for what Ron does or vice versa but I do blame both for not talking it out.

[GryffindorGr]

by PrettyVeela
2. See that's the thing about Luna, after only one book, I truly think that Luna has been more introduced than some of the bit players that have been in all 5 books in some shape or form. We know about her family, how she's treated at school, and for some wierd reason, J.K. chose Luna, after only ONE book, to contribute in one of the most important and action packed chapters(Department of Mysteries) with 5 already established characters.

So taking all of that in, a reader can't help but wonder what the purpose of Luna is.(Romantic or not). I do think she has a good chance of being a romantic interest for Harry, but I also think that she's going to turn out to be a good friend of Harry's and be heavily involved in book 6 and 7(along with the rest of the Fantasic Six).

I think it’s because Luna hits on the spiritual side and usually that is the highest form of achieving the greatest bond between your humanity and higher enlightenment. It may not be romantic but it’s familiar to me as in the journey through hell by Dante in Divine Comedy in which Luna reminds me of Dante’s favorite saint: Saint Lucia, whose name means “light” and is the patron saint of “eyesight.” Interestingly enough. Luna’s name means “moon goddess” and she has been described with interesting large eyes.
We had to know about Luna’s family almost as deeply as we know Ginny’s since Ginny is the sister of Ron. But with Luna, because Harry had to make the spiritual connection, which is death, it was only obvious to learn that through this it was from Luna’s closest and beloved powerful mother. Her mother, just like Lily, who is in a sense as powerful. And both characters can communicate psychologically.

[ami padme]

The problem with the hope and faith idea for Luna is, he still doesn't believe her after talking to her. His thought process is--it's a nice idea, but it's Luna talking so can I even put any stock in it? It got him over the hump of thinking about other things but Luna is, at most, an object of pity.
I think it's more important that Harry heard the voices himself. Sure, he wonders at Luna believing so many extraordinary things, but if Harry simply didn't believe her at all, I'd be surprised at him feeling better when she walks away.

Also, right before Harry runs into Luna, he has his hopes about Sirius dashed twice, in rather harsh ways...first, he's certain that the mirror will let him talk to Sirius and is so disappointed when it doesn't that he trashes it...then he remembers the ghosts in the school, and goes running to talk to Nearly Headless Nick, who tries to be kind, but essentially tells Harry that he won't be talking to Ghost!Sirius any time soon. Harry is again bitterly disappointed and even thinks something to the effect that losing the hope of talking to/seeing Sirius was like losing him all over again.

It's almost immediately after thinking that, that he runs into Luna. She -- pretty much out of nowhere -- gives him a chance at exactly what he's looking for, the hope that he will, somehow, talk to Sirius again. Luna believes it about her mother, and Luna believes it about the veil. That Harry hesitates about just flat-out believing it isn't surprising to me...Luna does believe many "extraordinary things" and add to that the fact that Harry's had his hopes wrecked twice immediately preceeding that...but as I said, something lessened Harry's weight by the end of that conversation. I don't think it was (just) his feeling bad about her stuff being swiped.



See that's the thing about Luna, after only one book, I truly think that Luna has been more introduced than some of the bit players that have been in all 5 books in some shape or form. We know about her family, how she's treated at school, and for some wierd reason, J.K. chose Luna, after only ONE book, to contribute in one of the most important and action packed chapters(Department of Mysteries) with 5 already established characters.
I agree with this -- there was a lot accomplished with Luna in one book in terms of who she is (and why), and in terms of bringing her into the circle with other established characters. I thought OotP was a great book for new character introductions -- Luna might have been most prominent, but others (especially Tonx! :D) were great as well.

[noddwyd]

Yes. Luna is a powerful presense spiritually. And really her entrance in this one book has brought her further into the story than many other characters that have been here for all five, and I don't think she'll be leaving anytime soon. The moon goddess does know things. And at the very least I think she will teach Harry things he will need to know, just by being who she is, really. He doesn't fully believe in her just yet, but, as she said herself, she believes in him. :) But that doesn't force them to become a couple. Actually I think there is so much more she could teach Ron than she ever could Harry. Really all she has to do is push Harry in the right direction and he'll be fine.

[FlyingPhoenix]

I'm right now rereading OotP and I found myself wondering rather deeply something I assure you don't happens often. It was about some scene's where Harry hears his mind speaking in another voice. We do know that by the Dementor attack Harry hear's Voldemort's voice but what is with that scene after Ron became prefect?

This scene is extra ordinary interesting. Why? Because later in OotP we read "this part of his mind which spoke often in a voice like Hermione's" or something along this line. This phrase indicate that Harry did hear his mind more often speak in her voice. Since I read that, since I was aware of that I did wonder when? I thought maybe in GoF or in PoA something what might be I'm not sure but for sure it was in OotP and it's the prefect-scene.

I'm yet not sure if it is possible to form at hands of voices in each book let say started by PoA till OotP a theory that Harry's feeling did increase that much that he finally can name that voice.

Anyway to my point the Prefect scene all quote are from UK from chapter The woes of Mrs Weasley:
Page 151: Not this, said a small truthful voice inside his head

and

Did this make him as arogante as Draco Malfoy? Did he think himself superior to everyone else? Did he really believe he was better than Ron?
No, said the small voice defiantly.

and

Page 152: But maybe, said the small voice fairly, maybe Dumbledore doesn't choose prefects because they got themselves into load of dangerous situations...maybe he chooses them for other reasons....Ron must have something you don't...

On those two pages are after my thinking two different voices since one speaks in first person the other in third person and that is rather strange. If we look at the instance as Harry heard this voice speaking like Hermione is it important to mark that Hermione had been always just minutes before in one room with him and mark it always were it topics which did interest Hermione greatly. What means where Hermione had great emotions in that.

We all know how strong she did react about Occlumency, in fact she was emotional. Now let recap shall we? Voldemort was always able to get a connection to Harry if he was very emotional, says angry, tempered or what ever. In the Occlumency lessons we saw Harry wasn't able to close his mind always if he was emotional, tempered. Now in comparing Harry hears always this sort of voice in his mind if Hermione was indeed emotional.

You see what I'm on about? It is very possible that this isn't a part of Harry's mind but just plainly Hermione's thoughts. I always thought there is something wrong with Harry hearing Hermione's voice. Now just think about it the only other voice Harry hears is from Voldemort and we do know they have a connection. Maybe its far fretched maybe not but its surprising that Harry hears Hermione's voice only if it was a topic which made Hermione rather emotional.

I like to compareher reaction, sorry I jdon't have the page's right now:

'It — what?'
'Ron?' said Hermione, her jaw dropping. 'But . . . are you sure? I mean — '
'I . . .' said Hermione, looking thoroughly bewildered. 'I . . . well . . . wow! Well done, Ron! That's really — '
'No,' said Hermione, blushing harder than ever, 'no it's not . . . Ron's done loads of . . . he's really . . .'


This was her reaction let's compare with Harry's strange voice in his mind you must imagine Hermione did expect Harry as Prefect and not Ron after she left she might have searched after reasoning just like Harry. This are permission to get what I mean:

Not this, said a small truthful voice inside his head

True, Hermione nor Harry did expect that, see reaction above.

Did this make him as arogante as Draco Malfoy? Did he think himself superior to everyone else? Did he really believe he was better than Ron?
No, said the small voice defiantly.

Don't you think Hermione got that Harry was not at all happy about that Ron was made prefect? We know that Hermione knows its an issues to Harry that he wasn't made prefect see Hermione's reaction on the train. Rather emotional, unusually emotional.

But maybe, said the small voice fairly, maybe Dumbledore doesn't choose prefects because they got themselves into load of dangerous situations...maybe he chooses them for other reasons....Ron must have something you don't...

Sure this might be Harry who thinks of himself low but mind you Hermione must search herself after reasoning why Ron became prefect, why she was so wrong. Only answer Ron must have something what Harry don't. Says troubles.

Did I mention I'm a H/Hr shipper? No, well I'm and just by the way Mars is bright today.

[Mirtilla]

Humm I guess those things don't sound new to someone... :p

Cheers 'phoenix!

Interesting thoughts here, I've thought that in those scenes that you quoted perhaps the voice that Harry listened to was indeed Hermione mostly because it fits with her behavior in the prefect badge scene. What I mean is that Hermione surely had to question herself why Ron has become prefect and not Harry.

Not this, said a small truthful voice inside his head

If I recall correctly this sentence happened right after Harry asked himself if it was expected what had happened-Ron being prefect. Now if so, you see it's very possible that the voice is indeed Hermione's voice

But maybe, said the small voice fairly, maybe Dumbledore doesn't choose prefects because they got themselves into load of dangerous situations...maybe he chooses them for other reasons....Ron must have something you don't...

That sounds very much Hermione- if try you can just image Hermione reasoning like that. As for the final part "Ron must have something you don't"- that's could be simply Harry, after all Harry was amused that in GoF Hermione didn't want to go with Ron at Hogsmeade. What I mean is that it's interesting how Harry thinks that Hermione might prefer Ron; even if is not the case.

Mirtilla

[noddwyd]

Yes, that's possible. But not in all those cases did Hermione even know about what was going on or what he was doing or thinking of. The 'Reckless' scene, where he first mentions to us that it is Hermione's voice he is hearing. She didn't know about that until later. So, it would have to be a subconsious connection that runs both ways. She would have to be able to hear him, too. And somehow I think this isn't the kind of thing that Hermione could look up in a book. This is the magical world, and we don't know just what is possible. If you are right though, what do you think will happen if they realize it and the link becomes active, and not just reactive?

edit:

Yes. I think Harry believes that Hermione couldn't like him that way at all, although he hasn't consiously thought this where we could see it yet.

[SilverStar]

I heard someone say the other day that guys always marry someone who reminds them of their mother. Wouldn't this go for H/G? Especially since Harry never knew his mother...

[canteurervan]

I heard someone say the other day that guys always marry someone who reminds them of their mother. Wouldn't this go for H/G? Especially since Harry never knew his mother...

Who would say that? There's no certainty or empirically psychological evidence for such statement, I assure you. It's a very very very bold personal statement that over-impose their hyperactive sense of weirdness. :rotfl:

***van.

[sone]

I heard someone say the other day that guys always marry someone who reminds them of their mother.

:sad: No offense to my own mom, but that is very depressing and fortunately not true. Why does it seem people are hell bent on calling Harry's potential love interests his mother reincarnated?

[ami padme]

I heard someone say the other day that guys always marry someone who reminds them of their mother. Wouldn't this go for H/G? Especially since Harry never knew his mother...
I don't care for the proposition that Ginny's surface similarilites to (what little we know of) Lily point to H/G becoming a couple. It should/will take more than that.

[GryffindorGr]

:sad: No offense to my own mom, but that is very depressing and fortunately not true. Why does it seem people are hell bent on calling Harry's potential love interests his mother reincarnated?

by canteurervan
Who would say that? There's no certainty or empirically psychological evidence for such statement, I assure you. It's a very very very bold personal statement that over-impose their hyperactive sense of weirdness


I think, if I may, understand that Silverstar04 means is that boys generally, or boys who love their mommys very much, want a girl who has the same sweetness and adoration that was displayed on him. Such as cooking delicious meals for him, the scent of home baked cookies and pies, caring for his needs; making sure he eats right and gets vitamins, take care of him and make sure he is number one in her eyes. There are mothers who are very protective and some who are carefree but love their kids very much so, in a way, it’s not that the boy himself wants a girl exactly like his mother but that the elements are there that is in nurturing. It is also true that male infants vie with their fathers for the attention of their mothers. Even to the point in adulthood, the male likes to be reminded of those things that gave him importance as a boy. The crossing of boyhood to adulthood though should be to separate that childhood of want; mentally and grow up as a man, choose what kind of woman he wants but these things in their memories and senses are very deep. So it’s a subconscious attraction.
But it’s just a general statement. It isn’t with all. Ah well, speculative of course in terms of H/G or even H/Hr. :)

[playmaker9]

oh no, we're getting into the oedipus complex argument again...

cheers!

[Polaris15]

I heard someone say the other day that guys always marry someone who reminds them of their mother. Wouldn't this go for H/G? Especially since Harry never knew his mother...

Not only is the veracity of your statement highly doubtful, it is furthermore a contradiction. If Harry never knew Lily, how could he compare any girl to his own mother? One can not compare or contrast anyone or anything, for that matter, without knowledge of both things or people being compared or contrasted. Therefore, your statement is rendered invalid.

Cheers!

Polaris

ETA: Food for thought: if you truly believe that boys do compare their LIs with their guardians, then you would be implying that Harry would choose a girl with somewhat similiar characteristics as Pertunia Dursley, whom undertakes the role of a 'mother' for Harry throughout his earlier childhood. After Harry meets the Weasleys, Harry considers Mrs. Weasley as a motherly figure. Would you say that if indeed boys do compare their LI's to their mothers, then Harry's LI would be a combination of traits from both Mrs. Weasley and Petunia? Hmm...quite unusual.

[GryffindorGr]

oh no, we're getting into the oedipus complex argument again...

cheers!

LOL! :rotfl:
Just watch it, playmaker9 or I'll start with my essay on Freud analysis and the Oedipus complex in terms of Harry wanting a mother he never had and why JKR installed 2 girls who could look like his mother and one who acts like his mother.

ETA: oh and it'll be for why he would fall in love with them.

[SilverStar]

I think, if I may, understand that Silverstar04 means is that boys generally, or boys who love their mommys very much, want a girl who has the same sweetness and adoration that was displayed on him. Such as cooking delicious meals for him, the scent of home baked cookies and pies, caring for his needs; making sure he eats right and gets vitamins, take care of him and make sure he is number one in her eyes. There are mothers who are very protective and some who are carefree but love their kids very much so, in a way, it’s not that the boy himself wants a girl exactly like his mother but that the elements are there that is in nurturing. It is also true that male infants vie with their fathers for the attention of their mothers. Even to the point in adulthood, the male likes to be reminded of those things that gave him importance as a boy. The crossing of boyhood to adulthood though should be to separate that childhood of want; mentally and grow up as a man, choose what kind of woman he wants but these things in their memories and senses are very deep. So it’s a subconscious attraction.
But it’s just a general statement. It isn’t with all. Ah well, speculative of course in terms of H/G or even H/Hr. :)

Thank you!!! You explained that well. And I've heard more than one person say that in my lifetime.

[sone]

oh no, we're getting into the oedipus complex argument again...

I know. Ugh!!! I think I am going to be sick. :sad: Maybe those guys would like their wives to change their diapers for them too. I hope Harry doesn't end up in such a sad state of affairs.

Not only is the veracity of your statement highly doubtful, it is furthermore a contradiction. If Harry never knew Lily, how could he compare any girl to his own mother? One can not compare or contrast anyone or anything, for that matter, without knowledge of both things or people being compared or contrasted. Therefore, your statement is rendered invalid.

Good point. :tu:

[Rowena Ravenclaw]

As for the final part "Ron must have something you don't"- that's could be simply Harry...

It has to be one or the other all the way through. There's no indication of the voice changing. And it is difficult to imagine Hermione thinking something like "Ron must have something you don't" - that's not a particularly fair sentiment, and more consistent with a nagging inner dialogue than anything Hermione would say (at least, not without prefacing it to soften the blow somehow).

For that matter, as noddwyd says, it's hard to imagine Hermione communicating telepathically with Harry in such a direct manner without tipping her hand somehow - either without Harry recognizing the voice as specifically hers, or her realizing what she's doing and expressing some sort of surprise.

[FlyingPhoenix]

Not only is the veracity of your statement highly doubtful, it is furthermore a contradiction. If Harry never knew Lily, how could he compare any girl to his own mother? One can not compare or contrast anyone or anything, for that matter, without knowledge of both things or people being compared or contrasted. Therefore, your statement is rendered invalid.

I'm surprised that this is in need to be pointed out. Its obvious at least its to me that this argument dos not work.

[GryffindorGr]

by SilverStar04
Thank you!!! You explained that well. And I've heard more than one person say that in my lifetime.
You’re welcome. I do understand what you mean. Even with boys who had never known a mother, it’s easy to see that Harry longs for his parents, as in PS/SS when everyone went home for Christmas, and how Malfoy laughed at him for not having parents to go home to. He may not know how Lily his mother may have treated him growing up but from what he sees of Petunia’s coddling, or rather over coddling to Dudley, Harry can note that mothers are very important in their role as nurturers and supporters.
Right now, we’ve only indications of Harry’s first crush, and that was Cho. His first impression is of prettiness but he’s not boiled over by dazzling beauty like Fleur as Ron is, or was he boiled over by Padma or Parvati who were described as very pretty. I think it’s more the connection because for the life of me, I cant see how he would be impressed by Cho’s personality since he has not been able to spend too much time with her to get to know her that deeply. So perhaps, the answer lies in not just the personality, and not just looks because it didn’t count with Fleur and the others. Maybe it is with her performance as a Quidditch player?

[sone]

For that matter, as noddwyd says, it's hard to imagine Hermione communicating telepathically with Harry in such a direct manner without tipping her hand somehow - either without Harry recognizing the voice as specifically hers, or her realizing what she's doing and expressing some sort of surprise.

Legilmency is not about mind reading. The mind as Snape said, is not a book to be opened and read at one's leisure. I figure Harry is just picking up thoughts here and there and not only with Hermione either. At this point, Harry doesn't even know what legilmency is, Harry is not going to be guessing anything. This is a guy who doesn't look upon himself as being unique even as a wizard even though he is the epitome of unique, the unknown, everything that Luna would take an intellectual interest in.

[Rowena Ravenclaw]

Legilmency is not about mind reading. The mind as Snape said, is not a book to be opened and read at one's leisure. I figure Harry is just picking up thoughts here and there and not only with Hermione either.

But every other time he hears a voice in his head that reminds him of Hermione, he identifies it as such. And the fact that Legilimency isn't mind reading makes this method of communication that much more implausible - when Harry and Snape practiced it, all we saw were images without any conversations.

Besides, my problem's more with the fact that the voice, whatever it is, is addressing him directly in the second person as "you." If it is Hermione, either she thinks she's imagining an elaborate conversation with Harry in her own head, which seems odd, or she has to recognize that she really is talking to him.

[SilverStar]

You’re welcome. I do understand what you mean. Even with boys who had never known a mother, it’s easy to see that Harry longs for his parents, as in PS/SS when everyone went home for Christmas, and how Malfoy laughed at him for not having parents to go home to. He may not know how Lily his mother may have treated him growing up but from what he sees of Petunia’s coddling, or rather over coddling to Dudley, Harry can note that mothers are very important in their role as nurturers and supporters.
Right now, we’ve only indications of Harry’s first crush, and that was Cho. His first impression is of prettiness but he’s not boiled over by dazzling beauty like Fleur as Ron is, or was he boiled over by Padma or Parvati who were described as very pretty. I think it’s more the connection because for the life of me, I cant see how he would be impressed by Cho’s personality since he has not been able to spend too much time with her to get to know her that deeply. So perhaps, the answer lies in not just the personality, and not just looks because it didn’t count with Fleur and the others. Maybe it is with her performance as a Quidditch player?

I agree. Which makes it even more likely that he will be with Ginny because they have a 'tom' connection. He doesn't go for the 'superficial' beauty thing.

[sone]

But every other time he hears a voice in his head that reminds him of Hermione, he identifies it as such. And the fact that Legilimency isn't mind reading makes this method of communication that much more implausible - when Harry and Snape practiced it, all we saw were images without any conversations.

Besides, my problem's more with the fact that the voice, whatever it is, is addressing him directly in the second person as "you." If it is Hermione, either she thinks she's imagining an elaborate conversation with Harry in her own head, which seems odd, or she has to recognize that she really is talking to him.

Well like the book said when he first identified the voice with Hermione's, not for the first time....when was the first time? Also I do not believe that Hermione is communicating with Harry, I simply think Harry is picking up on some of her thoughts. Hermione may even be playing out why Harry didn't become a prefect. Hermione could easily be thinking, "but maybe, said the small voice fairly, maybe Dumbledore doesn't choose prefects because they got themselves into load of dangerous situations...maybe he chooses them for other reasons....Ron must have something you don't..." and Harry certainly doesn't think he is a mind reader (and he has no idea what legilmency is) so he is just going to identify the thoughts as his own.

I agree. Which makes it even more likely that he will be with Ginny because they have a 'tom' connection. He doesn't go for the 'superficial' beauty thing.

But he doesn't go for girls he is not interested in either.

[Mirtilla]

Originally posted by Rowena Ravenclaw
It has to be one or the other all the way through. There's no indication of the voice changing. And it is difficult to imagine Hermione thinking something like "Ron must have something you don't" - that's not a particularly fair sentiment, and more consistent with a nagging inner dialogue than anything Hermione would say (at least, not without prefacing it to soften the blow somehow).

It could be the other way around without doubt however is not difficult imaging Hermione thinking “Ron must have something you don’t”- surely she has questioned herself of why Ron was made prefect and not Harry, after all she was so sure that Harry would have been prefect, she was so exited that it’s only logical assuming that Hermione thought about it. Furthermore I don’t see why you’re using the word “nagging” for describe the dialogue when the voice it was described as “truthful” and “defiantly”- I don’t see the dialogue as propely “nagging” rather as a truthful dialogue. As for what Ron has that Harry hasn’t, well of course he’s not always in dangerous situation like Harry is.

Mirtilla

[Daveydee]

I'm right now rereading OotP and I found myself wondering rather deeply something I assure you don't happens often. It was about some scene's where Harry hears his mind speaking in another voice. We do know that by the Dementor attack Harry hear's Voldemort's voice but what is with that scene after Ron became prefect?

<snip>

This was her reaction let's compare with Harry's strange voice in his mind you must imagine Hermione did expect Harry as Prefect and not Ron after she left she might have searched after reasoning just like Harry. This are permission to get what I mean:

Not this, said a small truthful voice inside his head

True, Hermione nor Harry did expect that, see reaction above.

Did this make him as arogante as Draco Malfoy? Did he think himself superior to everyone else? Did he really believe he was better than Ron?
No, said the small voice defiantly.

Don't you think Hermione got that Harry was not at all happy about that Ron was made prefect? We know that Hermione knows its an issues to Harry that he wasn't made prefect see Hermione's reaction on the train. Rather emotional, unusually emotional.

But maybe, said the small voice fairly, maybe Dumbledore doesn't choose prefects because they got themselves into load of dangerous situations...maybe he chooses them for other reasons....Ron must have something you don't...

Sure this might be Harry who thinks of himself low but mind you Hermione must search herself after reasoning why Ron became prefect, why she was so wrong. Only answer Ron must have something what Harry don't. Says troubles.

Did I mention I'm a H/Hr shipper? No, well I'm and just by the way Mars is bright today.

You don't think that this might be Harry's own conscience speaking to him, then?

The one which causes him to feel "sickened with himself", that he should have thought such caustic thoughts about his best friend?

I mean, I presume you do feel that Harry does have a conscience of his own, do you? Or is he wholly reliant on Hermione for that, too, and incapable of his own thoughts as well as actions?

[FlyingPhoenix]

You don't think that this might be Harry's own conscience speaking to him, then?

The one which causes him to feel "sickened with himself", that he should have thought such caustic thoughts about his best friend?

I mean, I presume you do feel that Harry does have a conscience of his own, do you? Or is he wholly reliant on Hermione for that, too, and incapable of his own thoughts as well as actions?

If you had read my post or my quote's bit more carefully you might have recognise that I didn't post all extent of Harry's thoughts, that I didn't say Harry can't nor don't has an own voice in his mind, that I in fact assumed at hands of that voice later in the books which Harry did recognise as Hermione's must heard before since this part of his mind did speak very often in that voice. Now let's look what mean's very often? It mean's more as often, more as once a time, more as once in a book and it means some part's of his mind don't speak in that voice ergo he has more as just one voice in his mind.

[enowonkenobi]

Originally Posted by Daveydee:
You don't think that this might be Harry's own conscience speaking to him?

Sorry, but this time I'm going to go with Davydee here. Yes, at the prefect instance, it could be Hermione's voice speaking to Harry, or it might not be. But it doesn't specifically state that it was Hermione's voice speaking to Harry, and when I read through it it appeared to me that it's more likely Harry speaking to himself.
True, FP , that a voice in Harry's head often speaks in Hr's voice, and from that we could assume that her voice was speaking here, but it just seems like going too far out to speculation this time :shrug:

[voldemolt14]

though i'm a h/hr shipper (kind of) i agree with Daveydee its just Harrys conscience

though this has probably been disscussed many times here i can see a 'greater' relationship forming between harry and hermione why?

1.Ron lets face it is not near as inteligent as hermione so he won't be as involved as hermione in the end he could be the soldier, though he WILL play an important part
2.Harry will end it all probably so he will be the indirect leader
3.Hermione is likely to be the 'tactician' giving advice to the leader ( see whare i'm heading? )
4.Harry is going to have to spend a lot of time with his advisor

though i do think there is going to be something with Harry and Hermione i do believe that it'll be ron and herm first with h/hr evolving from the time they're going to have to spend together.

i do have another theory that could bring harry and herm together but i'd be screamed at so i'll wait until at least one person supports my idea........

[sone]

True, FP , that a voice in Harry's head often speaks in Hr's voice, and from that we could assume that her voice was speaking here, but it just seems like going too far out to speculation this time :shrug:

My question to Rowena Ravenclaw:

Well like the book said when he first identified the voice with Hermione's, not for the first time....when was the first time?

[Rowena Ravenclaw]

Well like the book said when he first identified the voice with Hermione's, not for the first time....when was the first time?

Remind me where that particular quote was, and maybe I can look for it.

In the meantime, though, I'm going to do what I should have done in the first place, and examine the passage in its entirety.

Italics Rowling's, bolded emphasis mine.

p. 166-167, American edition

Not this, said a small and truthful voice inside his head.

Was that true? Harry wondered, anxiously probing his feelings.

I'm better at Quidditch, said the voice. But I'm not better at anything else.

That was definitely true, Harry thought; he was no better than Ron in lessons. But what about outside lessons? What about those adventures he, Ron, and Hermione had had together since they had started at Hogwarts, often risking much worse than expulsion?

Well, Ron and Hermione were with me most of the time, said the voice in Harry's head.

Not all the time, though, Harry argued with himself. They didn't fight Quirrell with me. They didn't take on Riddle and the basilisk. They didn't get rid of all those dementors the night Sirius escaped. They weren't in that graveyard with me, the night Voldemort returned....

And the same feeling of ill usage that had overwhelmed him on the night he had arrived arose again. I've definitely done more, Harry thought indignantly. I've done more than either of them!

But maybe, said the small voice fairly, maybe Dumbledore doesn't choose prefects because they've got themselves into a load of dangerous situations...Maybe he chooses them for other reasons...Ron must have something you don't.

There's a lot in that passage, but I'm going to stick to the original argument for now. Not only does Harry fail to identify the voice as Hermione's, he explicitly recognizes it as his own. And although the voice changes the tense in which it addresses Harry from "I" to "you" (after Harry starts directly arguing with it), there's no indication of it ever becoming a different voice. Unless we wish to turn to speculation that perhaps Harry simply assumed the voice was his own, we have to trust canon that he was, in fact, "argu[ing] with himself."

[FlyingPhoenix]

True, FP , that a voice in Harry's head often speaks in Hr's voice, and from that we could assume that her voice was speaking here, but it just seems like going too far out to speculation this time

I know its speculation but with a very valit question. If Harry did hear Hermione's voice in his head before as in that scene with Dobby then when was the first time this part (see its not all of his mind, its just a part) of his mind did speak in Hermione's voice.

Remember by Voldemort it started too as just casual dreams nobody got the idea Voldemort cloud possessing Harry through this connection this was in book4 though if let say I had posted before book5 such a theory people had said its very far fretched.
Now after book5 we have again underlined by the author that one part of Harry's mind speaks in Hermione's voice after what we learned about Occlumency it shouldn't wonder if in book 6 we read something about Legilmency and that this scene's will become important. Now the question should be why of all people Hermione? I say emotional connection.

[sone]

Chapt. 18 Dumbledore's Army

For a moment Harry was tempted to go with Dobby. He was halfway out of his seat, intending to hurry upstairs for his Invisibility Cloak when, not for the first time, a voice very much like Hermione's whispered in his ear: reckless.

I still believe that FP may be on to something because the first time we read Harry identify the voice with Hermione is not the actual first time that Harry has actually heard it. In fact, it seems we do not know when the actual first time was. Plus they're other possible signs of legilmency throughout the book.

[FlyingPhoenix]

'And from now on, I don't care if my tea-leaves spell die, Ron, die — I'm just chucking them in the bin where they belong.'
Harry laughed just as Hermione came running up behind them. He stopped laughing at once, in case it annoyed her.

I was just looking or trying to find that quote which we were speaking of and find this. Mind you thats interresting. Found in: Chapter OWL's.

Ah here we go:

He also suspected that part of his mind — the part that often spoke in Hermione's voice — now felt guilty on the occasions
it strayed down that corridor ending in the black door, and sought to wake him before he could reach the journey's end.

Chapter Grawp, sorry I don't have my books for page's

[Rowena Ravenclaw]

Chapt. 18 Dumbledore's Army

That early, huh?

Well, it's not quite the same thing, but there's this little bit from the first chapter, when Harry's going over what Ron and Hermione have written to him:

p. 9
"Be careful and don't do anything rash..."

And then there's the bit from the second chapter of GoF, when he's imagining what advice she might give when his scar starts hurting.

p. 21
"Write to Professor Dumbledore! And I'll go and check Common Magical Ailments and Afflictions...Maybe there's something in there about curse scars....

The point is, there are prior instances of Harry associating Hermione with an appeal to order and procedure without her actually being present in any form.

[FreckledApples]

But he doesn't go for girls he is not interested in either.
well, then, according to you, h/hr can't happen because he isn't interested in her(at least not romanticly)! come to think of it, he isn't interested in any girl as of now. so therefore he can't end up with anyone! unless, of course, he changes his mind...which can happen with any girl. wether it be hermione ginny luna or susan bones! see that arguement isn't really valid

[sone]

The point is, there are prior instances of Harry associating Hermione with an appeal to order and procedure without her actually being present in any form.

Rowena, the first quote are not Hermione's words, they're Sirius's words. They're not even thoughts as they were written on paper.The second quote, Harry clearly identified Hermione's voice and what he thought she would say. The quote I gave says that a voice very much like Hermione's whispered in his ear reckless. Since when couldn't Harry tell the difference?

well, then, according to you, h/hr can't happen because he isn't interested in her(at least not romanticly)! come to think of it, he isn't interested in any girl as of now. so therefore he can't end up with anyone! unless, of course, he changes his mind...which can happen with any girl. wether it be hermione ginny luna or susan bones! see that arguement isn't really valid

Sure it is. I said Harry doesn't go for girls he is not interested in either. My opinion is that he is starting to have a romantic interest in Hermione. Even if Harry does change his mind about Ginny, Ginny already changed her mind about Harry. People seem to disregard how Ginny may feel on the matter.

[Boris_the_Bewilder]

Many R/H shippers say that their relationship is like Molly and Arthur's based on the remark by Harry in the one scene in OOTP where Hermione turns to Ron for help in trying to convince Harry. I think the shippers are partially right but for the wrong reason.

Ron and Hermione argue frequently, and Ron usually starts the arguments. Neither says "I'm sorry" to the other. They exchange insults and things are often left unresolved.

On the other hand, Molly and Arthur do not insult each other. Molly nags Arthur and he doesn't argue back but in effect just says "yes, dear." They apologize and make up quickly. (They have also shown affection in the books, but we can't expect that yet from Ron.) They do not battle anything like Ron and Hermione. There is a whole different dynamic in their relationship.

But maybe Ron is attracted to Hermione because she treats him like Molly treats Arthur? That would be at least part of the reason Ron is attracted to her. Based on his family life, that is what he expects a wife or girl friend to be like. (I shamelessly stole this point from another post.)

But it doesn't work the other way: there bickering doesn't indicate that Hermione is at all interested in Ron. Instead, in OOTP she just seems genuinely annoyed with him.

The constant fighting certainly doesn't mean that they were made for each other, nor is it any sign that they should be together or will end up together. It doesn't have anything to do with "sexual tension." The two do not agree on anything. They are each just too stubborn and opinionated and too different in interests and values to ever get along.

None of this look promising for a lasting relationship. I'm thinking that maybe Ron will work up the courage to ask Hermione out in Book 6, and she might say "yes" because she doesn't have anything better to do. But I doubt if they can build a lasting relationship. Once they start going out, they will see they don't have that much in common or any emotional connection of a romantic type. "Opposites attract" — maybe if they are complementary, but not if they are antagonistic like Ron and Hermione. Also being Hermione's boyfriend is going to be a challenge since she is such an impressive person (at least to me). (I also think Ron is going to die at the end of Book 7, so in any case I wouldn't plan on buying any wedding presents.)

[enowonkenobi]

OoTP p. 166-167, American edition

Not this, said a small and truthful voice inside his head.
Was that true? Harry wondered, anxiously probing his feelings.
I'm better at Quidditch, said the voice. But I'm not better at anything else.
That was definitely true, Harry thought; he was no better than Ron in lessons. But what about outside lessons? What about those adventures he, Ron, and Hermione had had together since they had started at Hogwarts, often risking much worse than expulsion?
Well, Ron and Hermione were with me most of the time, said the voice in Harry's head.

Not all the time, though, Harry argued with himself. They didn't fight Quirrell with me. They didn't take on Riddle and the basilisk. They didn't get rid of all those dementors the night Sirius escaped. They weren't in that graveyard with me, the night Voldemort returned....

And the same feeling of ill usage that had overwhelmed him on the night he had arrived arose again. I've definitely done more, Harry thought indignantly. I've done more than either of them!

But maybe, said the small voice fairly, maybe Dumbledore doesn't choose prefects because they've got themselves into a load of dangerous situations...Maybe he chooses them for other reasons...Ron must have something you don't.

I think this settles it. In this scene, Harry is thinking to himself through his own voice, not Hermione's.
But,
Chapt. 18 Dumbledore's Army
For a moment Harry was tempted to go with Dobby. He was halfway out of his seat, intending to hurry upstairs for his Invisibility Cloak when, not for the first time, a voice very much like Hermione's whispered in his ear: reckless.
I wonder when was the first time Hermione's voice whispered to him? Interesting...

[p0is0n]

I think Harry/Luna have the potential for their relationship to grow, whether it's a deeper friendship or a romance. Obviously, I'm personally hoping for the latter, but one of the reasons I like the two of them together is that there are a lot of different way things could go between them. Their conversation at the end is a big point for me: Harry finds he doesn't mind talking about Sirius with her after avoiding everyone else; right after Harry has had his hopes dashed twice, rather cruelly, about contacting Sirius again Luna gives him reason to continue to hope; I love the comment as Luna's walking away, etc., etc., etc. I could go on about the conversation all day! But there are other things as well -- Harry wanting/needing to believe that Luna did indeed see the threstrals, him feeling heartened by her ludicrous lion's hat, him telling Hermione to stop offending the people who said they believed him about Voldemort, etc., etc.

Although my favorite for Harry is Hermione, I definately think that Harry and Luna have the potential for a serious relationship. I never really thought about it until my friend brought it up at school. They just have so much chemistry. It's amazing! You had some very good points. I think that Harry, like many HP fans, like Luna because she's not normal. Thats whats so awesome about her.

[ami padme]

Although my favorite for Harry is Hermione, I definately think that Harry and Luna have the potential for a serious relationship. I never really thought about it until my friend brought it up at school. They just have so much chemistry. It's amazing! You had some very good points. I think that Harry, like many HP fans, like Luna because she's not normal. Thats whats so awesome about her.
Cool. :cool: Luna isn't "normal" -- but that's not a bad thing, not at all. Heck, in a lot of ways, Harry isn't exactly what one would call "normal" either, LOL.

[jordmundt6]

Enowonkenobi--I think this is one of those "It's been coming on so gradually that I hardly noticed it" routines--like Elizabeth Bennet's regard for Fitzwilliam Darcy in Austen's Pride and Prejudice.

[dracosgoddess89]

I think a Harry/Luna relationship would be awesome ... they would balance each other out:
Harry: The psychotin hormonal teenage boy and Luna: The laid back not to concerned about anything teenage girl

[FreckledApples]

Sure it is. I said Harry doesn't go for girls he is not interested in either. My opinion is that he is starting to have a romantic interest in Hermione.
thats what i dont understand. how can you think he is already starting to like her when we know his thoughts and he has never once thought he liked her or thought of her as more than a friend.

[enowonkenobi]

I think this is one of those "It's been coming on so gradually that I hardly noticed it" routines
Aah, yes Jordmundt6! Much like their whole relationship too :D. They've been falling in love even though Harry doesn't realize it yet :agree: :blush:

[Mad Eye Mike]

thats what i dont understand. how can you think he is already starting to like her when we know his thoughts and he has never once thought he liked her or thought of her as more than a friend.

It's happening subconsciously.

[springthing4]

So do you think one day he'll just look at Hermione and say, I like her?

[canteurervan]

So do you think one day he'll just look at Hermione and say, I like her?

He won't...even though he will believe that he does, but he won't be able to tell her simply because he does not know whether Hermione will think the same, and doing so might risk the only friendship he's ever had all his life...

***van.

[springthing4]

The only friendship?? Ron was his first friend, and is his best friend. They didn't like Hermione in the beginning, they only became friends with her after the troll thing.
Harry has A LOT more friends than just Hermione.

[canteurervan]

The only friendship?? Ron was his first friend, and is his best friend. They didn't like Hermione in the beginning, they only became friends with her after the troll thing.
Harry has A LOT more friends than just Hermione.

Oh, you imagine that Hermione only stags along to pay her debt then? :rotfl: . Imagine when was the first time you make friends with someone...And if you notice over the five books, you should have understood by now the friendship Harry share with Hermione and Ron is quite unique, each of which is then unique in its own right. That is to say, Harry's frienship with Hermione is as unique as his with Ron, but differently.

Harry surely has lots of friends: Dean, Seamus, Ginny, Lavender, Parvati, Susan, Justin, etc... and so are they with Hermione. But, the only real frienship we are implicitly discussing in this *love* thread is none simple frienship with others. How many times have you seen Harry and Herminoe risk their lives for one another? How many times have you seen they deny to help one another while the other is in peril? Will Lavender risk her neck to face the hundred Dementors in PoA? Will Dean have the guts to go researching about the Basalisk with the knowledge of the danger of death coming in the way, or even go to the CoS fully knowing that he will be more likely to die by midnight than say "good morning"?

***van.

[springthing4]

That is true about Hermione, but it is also true about Ron. They would all risk their lives for each other. Hermione isn't the only person who would die and fight with and for Harry.

[ami padme]

I think a Harry/Luna relationship would be awesome ... they would balance each other out:
Harry: The psychotin hormonal teenage boy and Luna: The laid back not to concerned about anything teenage girl

Heh. I wouldn't call Harry "psychotic" or anything, but I do agree that a H/L relationship would be great!

[canteurervan]

That is true about Hermione, but it is also true about Ron. They would all risk their lives for each other. Hermione isn't the only person who would die and fight with and for Harry.

Yes, indeed. But that's your opinion. According to canon, Rowling has always chosen Hermione to be the One that helps Harry though. Can't argue with that. And, Hermione will also continue to be the One, according to Rowling. This I remember from the interview of CoS's DVD version, Extras. Be sure to watch it to find out why, since she did mention why...

***van.

[springthing4]

I have seen the interview, but not lately, so i forget what it says... and just because Hermione is there, doesn't mean they're in love. It could be because they're friends. I think Rowling said in an interview that Harry and Hermione would never be together because they're platonic friends.

[canteurervan]

I have seen the interview, but not lately, so i forget what it says... and just because Hermione is there, doesn't mean they're in love. It could be because they're friends. I think Rowling said in an interview that Harry and Hermione would never be together because they're platonic friends.

Never say Never in the magical world, mind you. Besides, I don't think no one at Hogwarts really is in love till they graduated. The *love* thread is an exaggerated version of fans' desire to pair up couples at Hogwarts to satisfy their curiosity based on canon evidence. The most they can do is go out on dates with a few crushes...and what about snogging and kissing stuff are only exaggerated because in OotP, we witnessed Cho kissed Harry; and so, fans keep on fantasizing possible future events of kisses and snogging sessions in their fanfics and debates. Meanwhile, since the last interview, Rowling promised for some more kissed for Harry in the 6th book, fans continue the charade to make things up bigger and bigger to satisfy their curious imagination. That's all there is to it, in my opinion. Besides, it's kinda fun without making those things up, since I've had so much fun reading those fanfics that I could spend day in day out without food till I finish them...how crazy, I know...


***van.

[esicardi]

That early, huh?

Well, it's not quite the same thing, but there's this little bit from the first chapter, when Harry's going over what Ron and Hermione have written to him:



And then there's the bit from the second chapter of GoF, when he's imagining what advice she might give when his scar starts hurting.



The point is, there are prior instances of Harry associating Hermione with an appeal to order and procedure without her actually being present in any form.
The main problem I see here is that there's a big difference between Harry imagining what Hermione would say and Harry having a part of his mind who often talks with Hermione's voice. In your examples Harry's imagining Hermione's reaction, meanwhile in OotP we are told Hermione's voice lives in Harry's head as a part of his mind. Since we don't know of any other voice in Harry's mind, it is fair to asumme that in all those instance where we see a voice advicing Harry, it is likely to be Hermione's voice.

Bye!
:cool:
esicardi

[PrettyVeela]

It's happening subconsciously.


Even if that were the case, we're still inside Harry's head, so we'd get some indication that his heart/soul/body knows more than his brain is telling him right now, and from what I've read, I've seen no such change with Harry towards Hermione.

The fact that we knew that Harry liked Cho wasn't because he came out in his head and said flat out, "yeah I like her." It was because when he was around her, his body and mind would react to her a certain way, a certain way that transferred to the reader(all of us) that Harry was interested in this young lady as more than a friend. (The agony he felt before asking Cho to the Yule ball, his jealously of Cedric and keeping an eye on Cho/Cedric at the Yule ball/ his face or hands growing sweaty each time he saw her, etc.)


In my opinion, we've been invited into Harry's head more than the other 4 books, and Harry has not reacted this way to Hermione consciously or subconciously.

[esicardi]

Even if that were the case, we're still inside Harry's head, so we'd get some indication that his heart/soul/body knows more than his brain is telling him right now, and from what I've read, I've seen no such change with Harry towards Hermione.

The fact that we knew that Harry liked Cho wasn't because he came out in his head and said flat out, "yeah I like her." It was because when he was around her, his body and mind would react to her a certain way, a certain way that transferred to the reader(all of us) that Harry was interested in this young lady as more than a friend. (The agony he felt before asking Cho to the Yule ball, his jealously of Cedric and keeping an eye on Cho/Cedric at the Yule ball/ his face or hands growing sweaty each time he saw her, etc.)


In my opinion, we've been invited into Harry's head more than the other 4 books, and Harry has not reacted this way to Hermione consciously or subconciously.
The problem is that Harry's feelings for Cho were NOT subconsious at all.
Harry was pretty aware of his crush in Cho, for example he thought of the idea of Cho being with him instead of Cedric several times at GoF, and in OotP (before H/C get together) Harry keeps on trying to give Cho a good impression of him, etc.

On the other hand, a subconcious feeling should be a more subtle thing, like for example the hints Austen gives about Emma-->Knightley in "Emma" before Harriet's confession (where she realizes her love for the first time). In "Emma" we are in Emma's mind just the same way we are in Harry's mind in HP, but despite this we don't see any clear sign of Emma-->Knightley at the begining other than their closeness and the big importance she gives to what he says.

Bye!
:cool:
esicardi

[Hawk 92]

I was looking through OotP the other night and I happened to end up in Snape's Worst Memory. Anyway that got me to thinking about the supposed J/L>>>Hr/R parallel that has appeared several times on this board.
This parallel creates more problems than it solves. For instance, James is an arrogant bully. He starts after his cousin Snape for no other reason than Sirius being bored, Harry noted that himself. We also see James arrogant, prideful, and a bit mean. Now Lilly seems to have a dislike for James. Given these negative qualities that James has just shown us, can anyone blame her? I don't think too many of us will post trying to defend James in this particular scene. I also don't think too many of us want to defend arrogant bullies. Do we?
Now the problem is that if we have a very good reason why Lilly does not like James, and we see that James had to lose these negative qualities in order to become the J/L of canon. Where is this in Hr/R? What negative quality does Ron have that he has to lose for Hr/R to happen?
Lets make this clear, I'm not Ron bashing or in any way being mean to the character Ron, I can't see Ron as arrogant, mean, or a bully. In fact I don't see Ron having a huge negative quality that he must change at all. So how does the J/L apply? It really doesn't.
What we have in Hr/R are a conflict of personalities. So how can Hr/R happen without a change in their personalities?

Cheers!

[EricaM]

For instance, James is an arrogant bully. He starts after his cousin Snape for no other reason than Sirius being bored,

I take it that this is a nod to the 'all old wizarding families are related somehow' that we've found out in OotP? It's a very interesting idea - Snape and James (and thus Harry) being related.

What I've often wondered is when are the 'squibs' going to start making a 'dramatic' (flash) impact on the story. We've had Filch and Mrs. Figg - but I keep wondering that there are some 'squibs living as muggles' and that they are going to come into the story at some point - like Molly's squib cousin (uncle?) who's an Accountant.

Cheers,
Erica

P.S. Hawk 92, your posts are always a pleasure to read - beauty of logic 'n all. :)

[Discordia]

Remember that whole debate on why Hermione went back to Grimalde place? She went back because she'd heard what happened to Mr. Weasley and she'd heard it straight from Dumbledore himself about what had happened. There's no prrof that she went for Harry becasue therefore she'd have had to have known that Harry had the dream about the snake which she didn't. The real issue at hand at the time was the fact that Mr. Weasley had been attacked by a giant snake and only later were people more concerned with Harry's mind.



For instance, James is an arrogant bully. He starts after his cousin Snape for no other reason than Sirius being bored,

Well we don't really don't know for fact that Snape is a pureblood. That's just an assumption. Just becasue Snape was in Slytherin doesn't automatically mean he was a pureblood. Also if he was a pureblood and they were related they probably might have been VERY distant cousins and I doubt that James would have though at Snape as his cousin. James and Sirius were purebloods but they didn't call themselves cousins. Just becasue purebloods are technically interelated doesn't automatically mean that they though of themselves as cousins.

Jane Austen was a very talented writer no mistaking that. Rowling has stated before that she has read and is a fan of Austen. Yet just becasue Rowling reads Austen doesn't automatically mean that all the ships are going to follow that pattern. I'm no saying that she's not but I'm just saying that she may or may not decide to go that route. For all we know she might just do a Shakespeare on us and go all Romeo and Juilet have Harry commit suicde. Writers are influenced by their favorite authors but just becasue she likes Austen doesn't mean the ships will follow the same pattern.

Harry and Luna is a ship that I find unlikely to happen and even more so Ron and Luna. The girl may have been able to connect with Harry but other than that she's not really here on earth most of them time. That one scene was a rare glimpse at a more vulnerable and real side to her where her head isn't up in the clouds. Quite frankly I think that Harry needs someone more grounded. Harry likes her as a friend and she was able to help him understand something that neither Ron nor Hermione could but Luna is still looney. Luna still can't give him what he really needs. Nor cna any of his other friends for that matter. None of them by themselves really helps to complete Harry.
-Luna helped Harry with Death yet she stuck by him even when everyone else though he was a wacko she believed in him even when he may not necessarily have believed in Luna or himself either.
-Hermione is there to give Harry logic, reason and advice when needs it. She's always there to support him also.
-Ron has always been a friend for him from the beginning. I mean, Ron flew his Dad's car just to get him and Harry to Hogwwarts and faced a howler from his mother despite it all. This is the same boy who with the help of his brothers also came to break Harry out of the Durlseys in the middle of the night. It's always been the Weasley's that have come to break him out of the dursleys with the exception of books 1,3, and 5 of course. Ron has always been a source of comedy and fun for Harry. Most importantly of all Ron is the one that really just allows him to be kid.

As to J/L I think it applies in the sense that Hermione and Ron are constantly squabbling with eachother the other's actions just the way Lily was so annoyed by James.. Lily thought James was a bully while Hermione considered Ron to have the "emotional capacity of a teaspoon."

The thing about Harry's subconscience feelings is that since these books are about him they are from his point of view so naturally we cna get inside his head. Harry does think about Hermione on occasion but I don't think that she's necessariyl the little voice inside his head. Though Harry thinks about her often he's always denied whatever romantic feelings he might have for Hermione. He's denied it to Krum, to Rita, to Mrs. Weasley. He's never had romantic feelings for Hermione but instead she's been the voice of reason for him not romance.

[vmonte]

I see Harry with Ginny. I think they have a lot in common.
1. They both have very intimate knowledge of Voldemort. Ron and
Hermione haven't even met the man yet. (I'm a Ron=DD theorist anyway,
so I believe there is a reason why JKR has kept Ron away from
Voldemort.)

2. I think that Ginny, like Harry, has also gained some of Voldy's
powers through their close encounter.

3. Ginny played Harry's Quidditch position while he was banned from
the game, and she did it well. By the way, since I believe that the
Quidditch game is symbolic for the war to come, I believe that at
some point Ginny will play Harry's role of "Seeker," she will go
after the bady herself. Ginny will be underestimated by the fool
(just like Lily was), an she will kick some serious behind.

4. Harry and Ginny have natural talent. They both have good
instincts. (I like the scene of the kids cleaning Sirius's house,
where someone opens a magic music box that lulls everyone (almost) to
sleep, until Ginny has the sense to shut it.)

5. Women always know who they want. Hermione wants Ron, and Ginny
wants Harry. And we know that Hermione likes to offer advice in the
dating area -- I'm pretty sure she is talking to Ginny, and giving
her advice about Harry. I'm sure that Ron's hints about Ginny to
Harry are probably due to what he has heard Hermione say anyway;
although, Ron also loves his friend and wants the best for his
sister.)

6. Harry believes that there is something going on between Hermione
and Ron. He notices how they interact with each other, and he is
aware of how much they seem to be like the Weasley parents. Harry
would never go after Hermione knowing that his best friend has
feelings for her.

Just my opinion, vmonte :)

[sone]

There's no prrof that she went for Harry becasue therefore she'd have had to have known that Harry had the dream about the snake which she didn't.

Where is the passage in the book that says that? She was told about what Harry overheard in the on the extendable ears but there is no evidence pointing to that she didn't know about Harry having a dream about the snake and she didn't seem at all surprised when Harry brought it up. Did she say she came back just because of what happened to Mr. Weasley? When she got to Buckbeak's room where Harry was, there was snow in her hair and her face was pink with cold. In just the prior few minutes, she doesn't even take off her jacket. She had to be in quite a hurry, I don't think that was because of Mr. Weasley. If she was told of what happened, surely she knows that he is quite alright and there is no need to rush.

The thing about Harry's subconscience feelings is that since these books are about him they are from his point of view so naturally we cna get inside his head. Harry does think about Hermione on occasion but I don't think that she's necessariyl the little voice inside his head. Though Harry thinks about her often he's always denied whatever romantic feelings he might have for Hermione. He's denied it to Krum, to Rita, to Mrs. Weasley. He's never had romantic feelings for Hermione but instead she's been the voice of reason for him not romance.

You cannot be told something that you are not aware of yourself. Like in Ron's case, has he ever admitted that to Hermione that he likes her? Better yet, would he ever had admitted it to Hermione in GoF or OoTP? Probably not, because he doesn't think he does. He is not aware of what he is feeling. But as we all very know, actions speak louder than words. Harry has denied he has any feelings for Hermione but in light of that, he has had two arguments with Cho involving Hermione, he has a dream about her (Cho turning into Hermione) in the same room he kissed Cho, her voice is mysteriously in his head and not for the first time, he's self conscious about disappointing her, cannot quite meet her eye when he lies to her, starts taking the initiative to protect her, doesn't mind at all now how or how hard she grabs when she is afraid, looks for her support at all times, almost demands it and remembers just about anything she tells him even it may seem he is ignoring her.

[Discordia]

Oh, good, I thought the print might have been to small agian because my blasted computer is an idiot.


Where is the passage in the book that says that? She was told about what he overheard in the on the extendable ears but there is no evidence pointing to that she didn't know about Harry having a dream about the snake and she didn't seem at all surprised when Harry brought it up. Did she say she came back just because of what happened to Mr. Weasley? When she got to Buckbeak's room where Harry was, there was snow in her hair and her face was pink with cold. In just the prior few minutes, she doesn't even take off her jacket. She had to be in quite a hurry, I don't think that was because of Mr. Weasley. If she was told of what happened, surely she knows that he is quite alright and there is no need to rush.
Hermione didn't know about the dream before Harry and the Weasley's left Hogwarts. Only later did Hermione find about what happened with the dream becasue it says so in OoP at the bottom of pg 498. Also when Harry was being rushed to Dumbledore's office after he had the dream it was only the group of 5th year boys that are awake and there's no mention of anyone in the house that was awake at the time that witnessed anything. Therefore how would she have known about the dream Harry had the night before if she wan't awake and Dumbledore informed her the next morning? Why would she be rushing for Harry? He's not the one that was dangerously hurt. That's like saying"Oh, Mr. Weasley put a sock in it. You may have nearly had your neck snapped off but your head is still screwed on isn't?" where as to Harry it's as if, "oh, you poor thing, have you been having dreams again." Also why would Hermione be surprised about the dream? Both she and Ron have been witnesses to them before and they both new he's been having dreams ever since he first got to Hogwarts.


You cannot be told something that you are aware of yourself. Like in Ron's case, has he ever admitted that to Hermione that he likes her? Better yet, would he ever had admitted it to Hermione in GoF or OoTP? Probably not, because he doesn't think he does. He is not aware of what he is feeling. But as we all very know, actions speak louder than words. Harry has denied he has any feelings for Hermione but in light of that, he has had two arguments with Cho involving Hermione, he has a dream about her (Cho turning into Hermione) in the same room he kissed Cho, her voice is mysteriously in his head and not for the first time, he's self conscious about disappointing her, cannot quite meet her eye when he lies to her, starts taking the initiative to protect her, doesn't mind at all now how or how hard she grabs when she is afraid, looks for her support at all times, almost demands it and remembers just about anything she tells him even it may seem he is ignoring her.
Ok ok, you got me there:blush:

[ami padme]

That one scene was a rare glimpse at a more vulnerable and real side to her where her head isn't up in the clouds...Harry likes her as a friend and she was able to help him understand something that neither Ron nor Hermione could but Luna is still looney.


I think that one scene provided some great development for Luna and further insight into her character. Obviously, I don't know what JKR has planned for her in the next two books, but I'd personally be surprised if that conversation was meant to be a one-time thing, never seen or built upon again. I think the readers and Harry will see more of Luna's "vulnerable"/"real" side, that we'll learn more about her as the series goes on. I guess I'm saying that I don't think that conversation was a one-shot thing, but part of her progression as a character, showing us more than the surface, "Oh, she's just Loony" aspect of her character. I don't think her looniness is her defining characteristic (and didn't think that even before the final scene) -- she acts and looks unconventional, and believes in unusual things, but that doesn't make her crazy, it doesn't make her automatically wrong. Especially on certain issues where there's a link between her and Harry -- as you say, she was able to help him with that last conversation, in a way no one else seemed to be able to; she also believed him when others thought he was crazy, lying, or weren't sure what to believe about him. I don't believe those are small things for someone like Harry, from whom personal loss as well as weird/crazy/unbelievable things happening are often par for the course. Whether or not they become a couple, I think it's great for Harry to have someone like Luna in his circle.





Luna still can't give him what he really needs. Nor cna any of his other friends for that matter. None of them by themselves really helps to complete Harry.


That I agree with. There's never going to be one person to give Harry everything he needs or is looking for -- I don't think anyone ever finds every single thing they need in one other person. Otherwise, people would just get married, and never leave the house ;) (because they wouldn't need friends or acquaintances). Different people offer Harry different things, and will continue to do so, no matter which girl he winds up with (or if he winds up with nobody, in a romantic sense).

[Mad Eye Mike]

Even if that were the case, we're still inside Harry's head, so we'd get some indication that his heart/soul/body knows more than his brain is telling him right now, and from what I've read, I've seen no such change with Harry towards Hermione.

The fact that we knew that Harry liked Cho wasn't because he came out in his head and said flat out, "yeah I like her." It was because when he was around her, his body and mind would react to her a certain way, a certain way that transferred to the reader(all of us) that Harry was interested in this young lady as more than a friend. (The agony he felt before asking Cho to the Yule ball, his jealously of Cedric and keeping an eye on Cho/Cedric at the Yule ball/ his face or hands growing sweaty each time he saw her, etc.)

In my opinion, we've been invited into Harry's head more than the other 4 books, and Harry has not reacted this way to Hermione consciously or subconciously.

As esicardi pointed out, Harry's feelings for Cho were not subconscious, he was very much aware of them so that parallel does not apply. If Harry felt his body react towards Hermione as it did with Cho, then he would know that he likes her. In other words, Harry would be conscious of his feelings and thus, they wouldn't be subconscious.

[sone]

Only later did Hermione find about what happened with the dream becasue it says so in OoP at the bottom of pg 498.

She said Dumbledore told her what happened first thing that morning before she arrived at 12G. Therefore she knew about the dream though she was told what Harry overheard through the extendable ears by Ron and Ginny most likely.

Why would she be rushing for Harry? He's not the one that was dangerously hurt. That's like saying"Oh, Mr. Weasley put a sock in it. You may have nearly had your neck snapped off but your head is still screwed on isn't?" where as to Harry it's as if, "oh, you poor thing, have you been having dreams again."

Because by the time she heard about what happened, Mr. Weasley's condition was stabilized. He was going to be fine and she possibly may of already known she was going to be able to see him. The danger had already passed. Harry on the other hand, is not fine. He has been avoiding the Weasleys and even Sirius and they him it seems. Also Dumbledore knows through Phineas that Harry tried to run away from 12G. Harry is being watched.

Also why would Hermione be surprised about the dream?

She would be surprised if she wasn't informed about Harry having a dream about a snake attacking Mr. Weasley. But since she was informed, she was not surprised by this information. She had already heard it and drawn a conclusion.

[Discordia]

She said Dumbledore told her what happened first thing that morning before she arrived at 12G. Therefore she knew about the dream though she was told what Harry overheard through the extendable ears by Ron and Ginny most likely.


Yes, that's my point. That Dumbledore was the one to tell her about the dream and that she didn't just rush there with out being informed of it beforehand. The books never say that she used the extendable ears to hear what Harry overheard unless your referring to when they were at the hospital. Ron heard about the dream from Harry himself since he was with Harry when he told Dumbledore about the contents of the dream.


Because by the time she heard about what happened, Mr. Weasley's condition was stabilized. He was going to be fine and she possibly may of already known she was going to be able to see him. The danger had already passed. Harry on the other hand, is not fine. He has been avoiding the Weasleys and even Sirius and they him it seems. Also Dumbledore knows through Phineas that Harry tried to run away from 12G. Harry is being watched.
Even if he was sabilized one does naturally get worried if they find out that one of there close friend's father was attacked by a serpent.

It's better to say that Hermione wen tback for both Mr. Weasley and Harry since they were both really embroiled in this huge crisis. I don't think that she specifically went back for one over the other.

[playmaker9]

i read an argument like this on portkey yesterday, i can't remember exactly what it said, but it was something like this.

hermione obviously notices that the weasley's and harry are gone the morning after harry has the dream. dumbledore tells her what happened and she has to wait until the end of the term to leave.

the next morning, hermione says dumbledore told me this morning reffering to the day after the attack. so she already knew of the attack, but was told something different that morning, which was harry's thoughts of running away. the she comes straight to grimmauld, and basically straight to harry's room, but she says that she had talked to ron and ginny first, so she must have had a quick word with them about what happened, stuck them in harry's room, had mrs. weasley make sandwiches for them all, and then she went and got harry.

i really can't remember the whole thing, it made a lot more sense than that does. if u wanna read it all go to portkey and then kindred spirits, in the h/hr section, and in one of those arguments is where it is. don't remember which though.

cheers!

[noddwyd]

Not only that, but it says in there that Dumbledore 'explained the situation' to her. He is aware that Harry isn't leaving his room via Phineas. Does no one think he told her about this as well as Mr. Weasley's injuries? Why would Dumbledore think that Hermione could do anything about it if the others could not? Remember McGonagall's line earlier in the book, 'well at least you listen to Hermione Granger.'?

It is a canon fact that Harry listens to her and trusts her above everyone else in the world. Why is that?

[sone]

The books never say that she used the extendable ears to hear what Harry overheard unless your referring to when they were at the hospital.

Good, neither did I. I said she was told what Harry overheard through the extendable ears by Ron and Ginny most likely.

Even if he was sabilized one does naturally get worried if they find out that one of there close friend's father was attacked by a serpent.

Of course, but nevertheless, he was going to be fine. She didn't have to go through that period that Harry, Sirius and the Weasleys did that night. But like the Weasleys and everyone else, there would have to be relief as well already knowing that he is going to live.

[Hulk]

Not only that, but it says in there that Dumbledore 'explained the situation' to her. He is aware that Harry isn't leaving his room via Phineas. Does no one think he told her about this as well as Mr. Weasley's injuries? Why would Dumbledore think that Hermione could do anything about it if the others could not? Remember McGonagall's line earlier in the book, 'well at least you listen to Hermione Granger.'?


According to Dumbledore's overall attitude in OotP, it's a little hard to believe he cared about Harry's 'mental state' so much that he would send Hermione to comfort Harry.

[FlyingPhoenix]

According to Dumbledore's overall attitude in OotP, it's a little hard to believe he cared about Harry's 'mental state' so much that he would send Hermione to comfort Harry.

No, its hard to believe that Dumbledore wouldn't at all care for Harry after all he might not have thought Harry depents that much at him but much more at his friends and Sirius. If we look at it in COS or PoA Harry didn't talk with Dumbledore unless something did happen so if you see someone in a year just 3 times its easily to think he won't that much depent on you.
After Mr Weasley was attacked Harry thought he was dangerous that he was not to be trust this is against Dumbledore's interest, now is it if he knows the prophecy? A depressed Harry don't help him to get ride of Voldemort

[enowonkenobi]

Welcome vmonte !
I see Harry with Ginny. I think they have a lot in common.
I think Harry and Hermione have a lot in common too ;)

1. They both have very intimate knowledge of Voldemort.
True, but so does Dumbledore. Not to metion Hermione's the only one willing to say the name "Voldemort" besides Harry in OotP, and not Ron.

2. I think that Ginny, like Harry, has also gained some of Voldy's powers through their close encounter.
It's possible that Ginny may have gained something from that encounter, but what it is, is up to speculation.

3. Ginny played Harry's Quidditch position while he was banned from the game, and she did it well. By the way, since I believe that the Quidditch game is symbolic for the war to come, I believe that at some point Ginny will play Harry's role of "Seeker," she will go after the bady herself. Ginny will be underestimated by the fool (just like Lily was), an she will kick some serious behind.
Cho was a seeker. Cho was good at quidditch too. Look where the H/C ship went. :no:

4. Harry and Ginny have natural talent. They both have good
instincts. (I like the scene of the kids cleaning Sirius's house, where someone opens a magic music box that lulls everyone (almost) to sleep, until Ginny has the sense to shut it.)
Harry and Hermione have good instincts as well. Look at all the times they understood each other and the situation by just catching each other's eyes, while Ron is clueless (Malfoy's "dogging" comment on the train in OotP)

5. Women always know who they want. Hermione wants Ron, and Ginny wants Harry. And we know that Hermione likes to offer advice in the dating area -- I'm pretty sure she is talking to Ginny, and giving her advice about Harry. I'm sure that Ron's hints about Ginny to Harry are probably due to what he has heard Hermione say anyway; although, Ron also loves his friend and wants the best for his sister.)
No evidence at all that Hermione wants Ron. Evidence is shown that Ginny is over Harry (Ootp). The rest of your statement is random speculation.

6. Harry believes that there is something going on between Hermione
and Ron.
Krum, Cho, Rita Skeeter, and even Ron believes there is something going on between Hermione and Harry (Ron's reaction to the "Harry's not a bad kisser" comment)

He notices how they interact with each other, and he is aware of how much they seem to be like the Weasley parents. Harry would never go after Hermione knowing that his best friend has feelings for her.
Hermione reminds Harry of Molly, yes. Ron is not similar to Arthur Weasley.
Also just because Ron wants it (crush on Hermione, trying to match up Ginny and Harry) does not mean it will happen.

[GryffindorGr]

by Hawk92
This parallel creates more problems than it solves. For instance, James is an arrogant bully. He starts after his cousin Snape for no other reason than Sirius being bored, Harry noted that himself. We also see James arrogant, prideful, and a bit mean. Now Lilly seems to have a dislike for James. Given these negative qualities that James has just shown us, can anyone blame her? I don't think too many of us will post trying to defend James in this particular scene. I also don't think too many of us want to defend arrogant bullies. Do we?
I know you get the idea of Snape being a “cousin” to James for example from that statement Sirius made in OotP that all wizarding familes are somehow related in some way. But we don’t know for sure if Snape is related to James, Sirius, etc. Surely even Sirius would have mentioned it. And remember too, that Sirius was related to Molly as a “cousin” by marriage because of his distant connection with Arthur. So really, that’s quite a bold statement to proclaim he is related to James as a “cousin”, although not impossible.

As for Lily having a dislike for James, well, that was from Harry himself and from us who “see” and read it as Lily gave the most dislike over Jame’s actions. But then, we get this from Sirius and Lupin in OotP:
p.591. British Edition:
“How come she married him?” Harry asked miserably. “She hated him!”
“Nah, she didn’t,” said Sirius.
“She started going out with him in seventh year,”said Lupin.

To me it showed that she LikedJames despite who and what he was, but she didn’t like what he did to people of course. There must be something that drew Lily to James.

Now the problem is that if we have a very good reason why Lilly does not like James, and we see that James had to lose these negative qualities in order to become the J/L of canon. Where is this in Hr/R? What negative quality does Ron have that he has to lose for Hr/R to happen?
Lets make this clear, I'm not Ron bashing or in any way being mean to the character Ron, I can't see Ron as arrogant, mean, or a bully. In fact I don't see Ron having a huge negative quality that he must change at all. So how does the J/L apply? It really doesn't.
What we have in Hr/R are a conflict of personalities. So how can Hr/R happen without a change in their personalities?
I can honestly say that the connection of J/L with R/Hr, aren’t really a connection at all. I, like you see none of that.
by enowonkenobi
Hermione reminds Harry of Molly, yes. Ron is not similar to Arthur Weasley.
Also just because Ron wants it (crush on Hermione, trying to match up Ginny and Harry) does not mean it will happen.
Wouldn’t this go against Hermione if Harry is reminded of Molly? And as for Ron is not similar to Arthur, well, some may argue with you that he is the most similar to Arthur than any of his boys. But that’s just a matter of opinion and personal perspectives—taking from canon.
As for the last comment, I agree, and it's the same for H/hr. Anything can happen. :)

[FlyingPhoenix]

Wouldn’t this go against Hermione if Harry is reminded of Molly?

Just out of curriosity, why? Why would this be against H/Hr? Not, that I say its a fair compairing just for the sake of argument. Why?

[jordmundt6]

FP--Do you REALLY want to get into the oedipal discussion again?

Also, domparisons to Molly, particularly the ones Harry mentions are mixed at best (even though they are born of obvious flaws in his understanding of Molly & Arthur's relationship).

Hawk--sorry but WHAT THE---? When did we find out that JAMES and Snape were cousins?

GryffindorGr--I don't see how you could get Ron's similarities to Mr. Weasley from canon. Granted, Mr. Weasley's maturity is born of long experience, but

1. Arthur does not mind being poor the way his youngest sons do.
2. He loves Muggles, interacting with them, studying them, protecting them--aside from a stray comic book about the wizard creation Martin Miggs, Ron shows little if any interest in Muggles.
3. Although ALL the Weasley men are cowed by Molly, in a true crisis, Arthur is the head of the household and Molly leans on him heavily (witness her reaction to the DE fracas at the QWC) or Arthur calmly, tiredly, overriding her about Harry and the Twins being informed about Order business.
4. Most importantly--Mr. Weasley's moral and ethical views do not parallel those of anyone in his family. He is one of Dumbledore's true followers. He believes in treating all magical races with dignity (a Dumbledore/Granger viewpoint more than anything) while Ron, in spite of his good intentions, more closely parallels Percy (the House Elves are enslaved and they like it--there's nothing wrong with that. Half-giants are, as a rule, not to be trusted--etc.).

[canteurervan]

I think we should put to rest the comparision of R/Hr to Arthur/Molly. Why?
First of all, it's very subjective. Canon evidence is irradical for such comparison. There are some evidence used to support, though I don't agree either, and there are others to oppose. While comparison requires both rationality of analogies used, I just don't see how you should manipulate the facts in such a way.
Second of all, I ask myself, why would Ron's life be like his father while all his life, he wanted to lead his independent life. Ron himself wanted a life without poverty...while his own principle hasn't even formed yet. Arthur lives on principle, not wealth. This is yet another point to not compare Ron's with Arthur's, at least not yet.
Third, no matter how one considers like father like son, it just does not apply. One's life actions bear the corresponding consequences, uniquely determined consequences. Hence, Ron's life cannot, and will not, possibily be of any similarities to Arthur's since "No one can swim in the same river twice".
Fourth, Hermione is no where to be compared with Molly since they are totally different, not only personality but beliefs in principles of life as well. This is crystal clear fact existed throughout canon so far, you all should see it by now. What's with *motherly love*, *motherly actions*, blablabla...motherly nonsense (no need to be offended since it's not to do such). It's just so typical in common inference in subjective perspective to derive while if one even wants to be subjective, he/she should look more subjecitve than just stop at *motherly behaviors*; rather, look further into the details of their corresponding pattern of behaviors subjectively. Now, I'm not suggesting to be subjective; all I'm saying is that even if you want to be subjective, it wouldn't still make any sense at all to consider the so-called *motherly behaviors* while comparing them. I bet even Freud would deny such thing considering his philosophy of pattern of behaviors.
Fifth, the bickerings between Ron and Hermione is of Ron and Hermione alone. I don't think it's objective to compare with Arthur and Molly. Not to mention there hasn't been any similarities between A/M's bickerings with R/Hr's from canon at all. Even if one looks beyond this, I don't believe canon ever mentions that Arthur and Molly argued constantly when they were young...none.
Last of all, if one want to analyze Ron's and Hermione's relationship, either do it as a whole with the presence of Harry, or separately without Harry. Either way, there has been no solid evidence that I believe none of R/Hr shippers could even deny that Hermione falls for Ron. Therefore, the comparsion should not even have been formed in the first place since there's nothing to compare with. Arthur/Molly is couple (husband/wife), but Ron is only a good friend to Hermione and vice versa. Inference beyond canon is too irrational to derive with any high significance to pay attention to anyway.

Agree? Disagree?

***van.

[FreckledApples]

Either way, there has been no solid evidence that I believe none of R/Hr shippers could even deny that Hermione falls for Ron.
i beg to differ! GoF makes me believe very much that hermione has fallen for ron! but i guess you are right..it isn't SOLID evidence. but then again we don't have any solid evidence that harry likes hermione or that hermione like harry. we don't even have solid evidence ron likes hermione. well that just sunk almost every ship and then if we go by SOLID evidence...they will stay sunk until the next books.

Inference beyond canon is too irrational to derive with any high significance to pay attention to anyway.
then why do h/hr shippers say harry already likes hermione! or that hermione came to 12G just to see harry and that hermione likes harry! aren't those inferences(sp?) i thought the whole point of this thread was to make inference beyond canon because if we didn't, we wouldn't think about ships!

[FlyingPhoenix]

FP--Do you REALLY want to get into the oedipal discussion again?

Nah, I won't but as matter of fact Molly is not Harry's mother. You know as Harry did compare Hermione with Molly it wasn't about mothering you know that part you are like a son rather about this kind of worry. If you believe it or not its very common that your wife worry's on the same level like a mother. Is that oedipus? Nah, not at all. A true oedipus argument is in my eye's if Harry did go for all red-head girls on the world that is truely one.

To this comes Hermione don't just remind Harry at Molly but at McGonagall, Percy too. The one who says: You are like my mother. Is Ron but surely never Harry nor did he ever say she is like Molly only that she did remind him with a certain action at her. Just like sometimes her voice reminds at McGonagall and her impression in COS at Percy. This are comparing's nothing more. Ergo you can't built up on this an argument against H/Hr since Harry never said Hermione is exactly like this something what Ron did.

See a big no no if you dislike oedipus to R/Hr.

[playmaker9]

i beg to differ! GoF makes me believe very much that hermione has fallen for ron! but i guess you are right..it isn't SOLID evidence. but then again we don't have any solid evidence that harry likes hermione or that hermione like harry. we don't even have solid evidence ron likes hermione. well that just sunk almost every ship and then if we go by SOLID evidence...they will stay sunk until the next books.

care to share that evidence with us, even if it isn't solid?

then why do h/hr shippers say harry already likes hermione! or that hermione came to 12G just to see harry and that hermione likes harry! aren't those inferences(sp?) i thought the whole point of this thread was to make inference beyond canon because if we didn't, we wouldn't think about ships!

most of our evidence for harry liking hermione is right there in cannon, but every time it's brought up, herons say 'no, that just shows that they're friends' while whatever r/hr do, for some reason it's more than friendly.

cheers!

[canteurervan]

i beg to differ! GoF makes me believe very much that hermione has fallen for ron! but i guess you are right..it isn't SOLID evidence. but then again we don't have any solid evidence that harry likes hermione or that hermione like harry. we don't even have solid evidence ron likes hermione. well that just sunk almost every ship and then if we go by SOLID evidence...they will stay sunk until the next books.
In GoF, most fans mistake between the following two kinds of canon evidence:
1. R/Hr based on Ron's irrational behaviors towards Hermione due to the appearance of Krum.
2. H/Hr based on Rita Skeeter's article whose statements discovered by prying on secret conversations between Hermione and Krum, and other stated facts surrounding activities of Harry and Hermione. Not to mention the reaction of Molly towards Hermione when she found out Hermione went out with Krum too; (Or, more precisely stated to be that when Molly found out from Witch Weekly that Hermione played dated both Krum and Harry, according to Rita's source).

Now, which one is more objective? and which one is more believable to draw inferences from?

With 1., that's one-way inference since we know nothing about Hermione's secrets. Whatever Hermione think is well-hidden from us. I don't deny the possibility of Hermione likes Ron either since I myself find the scene when Ron asks for Krum's autobiography a bit curious if you observe carefully Hermione's and Krum's reactions. But that's very very very subjective and ambiguous. No need to discuss further unless there's more solid evidence.
However, with 2., these are objective evidence since they are founded based on the third person. And whatever the third person seems more objective to things surroundings Hermione and Harry than themselves. Again, if one doubts Hermione's knowing her own feelings, then we should lean to the third person's view to analyse to be more objective.


then why do h/hr shippers say harry already likes hermione! or that hermione came to 12G just to see harry and that hermione likes harry! aren't those inferences(sp?) i thought the whole point of this thread was to make inference beyond canon because if we didn't, we wouldn't think about ships!

Yes, indeed. They are inferences. The last post, I meant the irrational inferences between Ron's/Hermione's and Arthur's/Molly's relationship. It's not right to do comparison between the two pairs. I wasn't talking about R/Hr and H/Hr at all.

Besides, R/Hr and H/Hr is a wheel of fortune without the beginning and without the end. Rowling insisted that there should have been enough canon evidence to support either R/Hr or H/Hr, but I don't think fans' thoughts are consistent with Rowling's. And that's the problem. The only thing I can point out here is: whether we believe in canon evidence from Ron's, Hermione's, and Harry's perspectives, or from others like Krum's, Rita's, Molly's, Cho's...all of the latter of which I believe you are all familiar with, so there's no need for me to recite them here. So, which is more reliable and hence is more likely to be true?

***van.

[playmaker9]

wow guys, i just read a great essay over at portkey using parallels of the trio's pets (most specifically crookshanks and hedwig) as a view on the relationships, and it's really good. i won't put it up here b/c the author of it won't have the chance to protect him/herself, but if you wanna read it check out the kindred spirits forums at portkey, go to h/hr, check out the mature discussion, and it's in there somewhere.

cheers!

[FreckledApples]

care to share that evidence with us, even if it isn't solid?
sure why not... i only have 3 points to share from GoF so here goes...

1. i know this has been debated countless times before but...
pg.432 (american)"Well, if you don't like it, you know what the solution is don't you?" yelled Hermione...
then later...
"Next time there's a ball, ask me before someone else does, and not as a last resort!"
that right there tells me she likes him. i know, i know...she may have just been aggravated that he would use her as a last resort (which i agree with) but i think it wasn't just that it was a guy using her it was ron. but then it just boils down to how we interpret cannon and text...

2.i don't know the source right now but i know that in an interveiw with JKR someone asked "is there anything going on between ron and hermione?" and although we aren't sure it is implying crushes, i think it is safe to assume it is. JKR answered with this "Yes there is, but Ron doesn't realize it yet...typical boy!" then on pg. 432 (american):
-but he(harry) somehow thought that Hermione had gotten the point much better than Ron had.
i believe these things go hand in hand.

3.this is really what made me believe hermione liked ron:
(hermione speaking) "No, it's just ... how did she know Viktor asked me to visit him over the summer?"
Hermione blushed scarlet as she said this and determinedly avoided Ron's eyes.
this is a dead give a way to me! you may say hermione doesn't look in his eyes cause she knows he will get mad, but she has shown tons of times before that she isn't afraid of him getting mad and she has never really before then tried to stop an arguement between them. i believe she did this because she was embarrassed to tell it to ron because she liked him and didn't really want him to know.

well there's me 2 (or rather 3) cents! well ... i had a bit of help from my dad (yup my dad ships r/hr too)

[PrettyVeela]

As esicardi pointed out, Harry's feelings for Cho were not subconscious, he was very much aware of them so that parallel does not apply. If Harry felt his body react towards Hermione as it did with Cho, then he would know that he likes her. In other words, Harry would be conscious of his feelings and thus, they wouldn't be subconscious.


You're missing the point I'm trying to make.

The point is that we(the readers) knew that Harry liked Cho without J.K. having to come out and tell us directly.

It's very possible to develop romantic feelings for someone and not realize it, Harry can protray that to the reader without he himself realizing it at this time. So far, in my opinion, that hasn't happened.

[playmaker9]

that right there tells me she likes him. i know, i know...she may have just been aggravated that he would use her as a last resort (which i agree with) but i think it wasn't just that it was a guy using her it was ron. but then it just boils down to how we interpret cannon and text...

the point hermione was making was that ron had been completely shallow the entire time leading up to the ball, and was only going after the pretty girls, and he was only going after her b/c he couldn't think of anyone else. hermione was telling him to look at a girl for their personality and not their looks.

2.i don't know the source right now but i know that in an interveiw with JKR someone asked "is there anything going on between ron and hermione?" and although we aren't sure it is implying crushes, i think it is safe to assume it is. JKR answered with this "Yes there is, but Ron doesn't realize it yet...typical boy!" then on pg. 432 (american):

there's no way that can be assured as being about a relationship, it could be more about their faltering friendship.

this is a dead give a way to me! you may say hermione doesn't look in his eyes cause she knows he will get mad, but she has shown tons of times before that she isn't afraid of him getting mad and she has never really before then tried to stop an arguement between them. i believe she did this because she was embarrassed to tell it to ron because she liked him and didn't really want him to know.

do you remeber what happened the last time she mentioned krum to ron? ron went crazy and they had one of the worst arguments that they have ever had. that's cannon fact. if hermione liked ron, why would she only show it in this one scene and not in any other parts of the books? hermione has had plenty of chances to show ron that she likes him, but she never takes them.

cheers!

[sone]

The point is that we(the readers) knew that Harry liked Cho without J.K. having to come out and tell us directly.

Though she did and nevertheless Harry knew that he liked Cho. Now if he wasn't going to be aware that he liked someone, how would Rowling show it? What type of clues would she leave?

this is a dead give a way to me! you may say hermione doesn't look in his eyes cause she knows he will get mad, but she has shown tons of times before that she isn't afraid of him getting mad and she has never really before then tried to stop an arguement between them.

This is not anger, this is jealousy. There is a difference and it makes it a whole other ball game, not to mention in OoTP, eventually Hermione gets past that and eventually ignores him altogether.

[PrettyVeela]

Though she did and nevertheless Harry knew that he liked Cho. Now if he wasn't going to be aware that he liked someone, how would Rowling show it? What type of clues would she leave?

Harry's face getting red when he sees her, stuttering, acting clumsy, etc.

There are ways to transfer that to the reader and have us have an "A-ha!" moment, before the character does. (Ron, anyone?)

[sone]

Harry's face getting red when he sees her, stuttering, acting clumsy, etc.

There are ways to transfer that to the reader and have us have an "A-ha!" moment, before the character does. (Ron, anyone?)

I'm not talking about the reader, I'm talking about Harry. Those are too obvious, Harry has already done all the above and he knew exactly what it meant. Now if he (Harry) wasn't going to be aware that he liked someone, how would Rowling show it? What type of clues would she leave?

[PrettyVeela]

I'm not talking about the reader, I'm talking about Harry. Those are too obvious, Harry has already done all the above and he knew exactly what it meant. Now if he (Harry) wasn't going to be aware that he liked someone, how would Rowling show it? What type of clues would she leave?

Harry has done these things with Hermione to imply to the reader that a romantic story is developing? *scratches head* Examples please.

Freckled the quote you're looking for is this:


Is it just me, or was something going on between Ron and Hermione during the last half of GOF?

Yes, something's 'going on'... but Ron doesn't realise it yet... typical boy. Yahooligans chat (October 2000)


Now let's break it down.

Yes.
^^^this is the answer to the question.

something's 'going on'
^^something is indeed happening between these two, which is why she answered YES.

but Ron doesn't realise it yet...typical boy.
^^^whatever is going on, Hermione realizes it and Ron doesn't. :eyebrows:

[sone]

Harry has done these things with Hermione to imply to the reader that a romantic story is developing?

No. However he has done these things with Cho and he knew that he liked her, for ages even. Thus if he were to do these things again with Hermione, Ginny or Luna than he would be aware that he likes whichever girl. Now if he wasn't aware that he liked someone but did anyway, how would Rowling show it? What clues would she leave?

[playmaker9]

but Ron doesn't realise it yet...typical boy.
^^^whatever is going on, Hermione realizes it and Ron doesn't. :eyebrows:

well since all the herons are quick to point out that ron likes hermione, obviously he knows that so it can't be romance that this quote is referring to. :cool:

cheers!

[WeasleyIsOurKing]

I think the main problem here is that since we've never truly seen Hermione smitten over a boy, we don't know how to tell who she may or may not like. And since we all have different opinions and different observations of the books, we're just running in circles. Until we get more from JKR, we're never going to know what mysteries Hermione holds.

well since all the herons are quick to point out that ron likes hermione, obviously he knows that so it can't be romance that this quote is referring to. :cool:

Then what, might I ask, is it?

[FreckledApples]

hermione has had plenty of chances to show ron that she likes him, but she never takes them.
as i recall, hermione also has plenty of chances to show harry she likes him, but she never takes them.

[playmaker9]

as i recall, hermione also has plenty of chances to show harry she likes him, but she never takes them.

yeah, she has. like sewing the house-elf hats, coming to him over the christmas holidays, putting off her conversation with krum (in which he was telling her that he had never felt this way about any girl before) to cheer for harry, clinging to him in frightening situations (even when ron is present), there's plenty more, but i'm not gonna waste all night looking them up, i just went with the few i could think of off the top of my head.

Then what, might I ask, is it?

well, possibly it does have to do w/ romance, but just not in the way you think, maybe hr knows of the crush but doesn't return the feelings, so she slowly tries to discourage him. (like the perfume scene)

basically i was just being a smart *ss and twisting apples words around cuz i was bored. but it does make sense when you thik about it.

cheers!

[Polaris15]

but Ron doesn't realise it yet...typical boy.
^^^whatever is going on, Hermione realizes it and Ron doesn't.
Ah, here is the problem isn't it. If JKR had said, "Hermione doesn't realize it yet," then Heron would have a very plausible explanation for Hermione's disinterest to Ron's pursuit in OotP. The rebuttle would simply be, "...but Hermione doesn't realize Ron's feelings for her, which is precisely why she hasn't displayed overt affection for Ron." Nevertheless, tis not the case. JKR stated that Ron doesn't realize it yet; not Hermione. Assuming that Hermione thinks or knows that Ron likes her, yet still hasn't given him the slightest encouragement in OotP, then the 'solution' suddenly becomes quite clear. Hermione is currently not romantically interested in Ron.

Cheers!

Polaris

[jordmundt6]

Careful there Polaris. Permit me for one second to adopt a Heron point of view as a means of illustration.

This is my Heron attempt:

As of GoF--"something is going on" between Ron and Hermione but Ron doesn't know it. Hermione DOES. We hear her chastising Ron for asking her as a last resort, if he really wanted to go with her he should ask her before someone else does. This shows that she not only perceives Ron's feelings, but would be disposed, in better circumstances to return them. Ron is totally thrown by this comment, having not comprehended his own emotions yet. However, Hermione's good-luck kiss in OotP is the catalyzing agent that helps him understand his feelings for her. He attempts to demonstrate them overtly with the Christmas gift.

That's my attempt at a Heron point of view. The quote works nicely for them if they tweak it enough but they end up running into a huge brick wall, Hermione's response, or rather, her lack of response to Ron's gift.

[dracosgoddess89]

Heh. I wouldn't call Harry "psychotic" or anything, but I do agree that a H/L relationship would be great!

lol i was just referring to his complete mood swings in OOTP :)

[Mad Eye Mike]

You're missing the point I'm trying to make.

The point is that we(the readers) knew that Harry liked Cho without J.K. having to come out and tell us directly.

Yeah, and Harry himself also knew he liked Cho. That goes against the whole point of something happening subconsciously.

It's very possible to develop romantic feelings for someone and not realize it, Harry can protray that to the reader without he himself realizing it at this time. So far, in my opinion, that hasn't happened.

Well, I won't argue your opinion. Suffice it to say, I completely disagree.

Thank you sone.

[ami padme]

lol i was just referring to his complete mood swings in OOTP :)
Okay, LOL. :cool:

[dracosgoddess89]

Yea :)


*~* Oh and there is the argument that they only really connected the one time but there is a first time for everything :)

[ami padme]

*~* Oh and there is the argument that they only really connected the one time but there is a first time for everything :)
I'd totally agree with that argument! :) I don't believe that conversation was a one-time thing, or that all of Luna's introduction in OotP wasn't building to her having a bigger role (and a more prominent place in Harry's life) in the next two books.

[dracosgoddess89]

Absolutley! I mean she built this complex wonderful gurl and i doubt seriously that it was for nothing ... (hr/r shippers are gonna like this) And if Hermione and Ron end up together Harry will be spending much more time alone so he could spend it with Luna!! :)

[fred]

I have a little problem with the "something is going on" quote, it's the "Ron does't realize it" part. If it meant to point toward romantical feelings between the two of them, how can we say that Ron dosn't realize it? He is the one displaying jealousy, not Hermione. His constant reaction to Krum (and even to Harry with the "how do you know?") makes me think that he is very aware of his attraction for Hermione. So, for me "Ron doesn't realize it" doesn't make sense if we talk about romance.

My guess is that the something going on could refer to the fact that Ron with his comportement and his reaction whenever Hermione talks about Krum is starting to alienate Hermione. Or Am I the only one that think that her comments toward Ron during their fights have become nastier ("emotional range of a teaspoon", "pathetic"...)

[PrettyVeela]

I have a little problem with the "something is going on" quote, it's the "Ron does't realize it" part. If it meant to point toward romantical feelings between the two of them, how can we say that Ron dosn't realize it? He is the one displaying jealousy, not Hermione. His constant reaction to Krum (and even to Harry with the "how do you know?") makes me think that he is very aware of his attraction for Hermione. So, for me "Ron doesn't realize it" doesn't make sense if we talk about romance.


Fred thanks for saying this, because I think a lot of people feel the same way you do, how can you have romantic feelings for someone and not realize it? That's the same way I feel when people tell me that R/Hr is too obvious, but they don't see it, huh? :huh:

Not everyone has romantic feelings of love at first sight. Even if some do have those feelings, it's entirely possible to misinterpet the feelings for something else.

I refuse to believe that every time someone asked you, "how do you feel?" You could give a detailed account of your feelings and emotions. At least ONCE, we've all said "I don't know." Yet were feeling a range of emotions at the time.

Long story short, it's possible to be aware of feelings, and not know what the heck they mean to you at that moment.


With that being said, if Harry woke up in book 6 and said, "I'm in love with Hermione!" the question that a non-shipping reader(not like us, haha) would want to know is "where did these feelings start showing up in the books?"

If Ron were to admit his feelings right now, most non shipping readers would not feel cheated, because whether they were romantic or not, Ron has shown an interest in Hermione that has lead most readers to suspect that "somethings going on" and guess what? Ron doesn't know it yet.

Which is why Ron was opening and closing his mouth like a fish in GoF after the Yule Ball arguement. :rotfl: Typical Boy.


Back to work *ugh*

Waves

PrettyVeela

[Dominique]

Absolutley! I mean she built this complex wonderful gurl and i doubt seriously that it was for nothing ... (hr/r shippers are gonna like this) And if Hermione and Ron end up together Harry will be spending much more time alone so he could spend it with Luna!! :)

While I agree that Luna's build-up wasn't for nothing, I don't see why that HAS to mean she will be Harry's future love interest. There are a million-and-one things Luna could be used for in the next two books -- Harry falling in love with her is just one of those things *shrug*.

However, if I had to choose, I would vastly prefer Luna over Ginny as a romantic partner for Harry. I find her a much more rounded, interesting and fascinating character than Ginny, and I like the way JKR handled her characterization much better than the "tell, don't show" route she went with Ginny.

On the other hand, though, I think that in canon, Luna has a crush on Ron, not Harry :).

[Dominique]

With that being said, if Harry woke up in book 6 and said, "I'm in love with Hermione!" the question that a non-shipping reader(not like us, haha) would want to know is "where did these feelings start showing up in the books?"

Only if they hadn't been paying attention, IMO. The problem with some R/Hr shippers is that they refuse to even CONSIDER the possibility that Harry thinking of Hermione a lot, that Hermione is Harry's voice of conscience, that Harry automatically reaches for Hermione when under attack, that Hermione talks about Harry very often, could actually be a sign of something more than friendship. The clues are there, but if you insist on interpreting them as "mere friendship", you have no one to blame but yourself if you end up stunned if/when Harry realizes he likes Hermione that way.

My friends, who are not obsessed with HP that way I am, are pretty much evenly divided in R/Hr and H/Hr camps. The idea that "everyone sees R/Hr" is patently untrue, for the record.

[fred]

PrettyVeela

I think that Ron is very well aware of his attraction for Hermione or rather what he thinks is romantic feelings. His actions are made very well known. So that's why I don't think that the something going on is romance, because JKR stated he didn't realised what was going on.

IMO what he doesn't realise is that if he ever had a chance that Hermione would consider dating him, he blew it up big time by his comportement. The something is IMO that he managed to alienate Hermione and that now she is even less willing to put up with his comportement. That would axplain the nasty comments she uses in OotP. Well, until percy's letter, where he proves his loyalty to Harry.

[GilyAnn]

Only if they hadn't been paying attention, IMO. The problem with some R/Hr shippers is that they refuse to even CONSIDER the possibility that Harry thinking of Hermione a lot, that Hermione is Harry's voice of conscience, that Harry automatically reaches for Hermione when under attack, that Hermione talks about Harry very often, could actually be a sign of something more than friendship. The clues are there, but if you insist on interpreting them as "mere friendship", you have no one to blame but yourself if you end up stunned if/when Harry realizes he likes Hermione that way.

My friends, who are not obsessed with HP that way I am, are pretty much evenly divided in R/Hr and H/Hr camps. The idea that "everyone sees R/Hr" is patently untrue, for the record.

Well I'm not a R/Hr shipper but the problem that I see with what you list is that those are things that Harry shares with Hermione as a friend. Harry thinking of Hermione is fine with me but he also thinks of Ron and he is very dear to Harry but often Ron's role is dismissed as nothing. It isn't a coincidence that Ron is what Harry missed the most and that he describes him as his best friend in the world. Often I find H/Hr shippers hating Ron or disregarding him as his role in Harry's life. Whatever time and effort JKR has put in the H/Hr friendship she has also put a HUGE one on Ron's and Harry's. Hermione being his voice of conciense I would hardly consider this a shippy thing. If Hermione is the voice on Harry's head he describes the voice at some point as nagging. Often the voice in our head is the one we don't want to hear and usually for a few years is the one of our mother's. My first reaction to this voice thing it was that it was nice friendship trait. Both Ron and Hermione already have a connection to Harry and know what the other is thinking. That I find funny and a very nice trait between friends.

Even more is that I'm still failing to see how Harry shows signs of starting to have feelings for Hermione when he grabs her. Because H/Hr shippers claim that Harry would saved anybody that would have been on the chamber and that him protecting Ginny when Bella said to torture her is just because she is Ron's sister. Ok then but that is to me a big double standard if Harry has a hero saving thing like some H/Hr call it then him saving Hermione plays out as part of that big problem of saving people. In the Grapw instance and in the DOM both time Hermione was in danger. I fail to see that if Harry has a hero complex he would leave Hermione to her own devices. I mean they are friends!

Another problem with this Harry has feelings for Hermione is that he several times regards as a nag and I don't think that's a good idea. But H/Hr insist to see this a good thing because Hermione takes care of Harry but Harry isn't an 11 year old anymore and I don't want nobody playing mother to Harry or taking care of him. He has to face the most evil wizard and alone. I like him to start thinking on his own devices and I think that's one of the biggest problems of this book. Harry will start coming into his own and need less assistance. Harry has to make his own choices and leave behind his sidekicks, his LI and even Dumbledore. That's how it has to be if he has to face Voldemort. When it comes to H/Hr everything can be justify as Hermione caring for Harry and sometimes things are hard to go any other way by now Harry has had every opportunity to realize this feelings for Hermione or at least gives us some signs that he does like her in that way. JKR even has used the almost killing Hermione and still there was nothing. But then again H/Hr claim that Harry was too busy worrying over Sirius death. There is always an excuse or a Red herring :scared: of why Harry doesn't think of his feelings for Hermione. Hasn't been consider that he may just be not interested in her romantically? Why can't the Trio be kept friends? Would it be such a sin not to pair anyone and keep them friends?

One thing that has me thinking is that JKR said that we will see Krum again. I think both camps (H/Hr & R/Hr) take him too lightly if we are seeing him again and not soon this is going to be dragged out to the 7th book(personal guess is that R/Hr won't happen in the next book either. Unless he comes to visit Hermione as a friend in the last book. :huh: Which seems strange but I don't discard the possibility). Perhaps there is more to the Hr/Kr thing than we are actually paying attention too.

Originally Posted by Sone
Now if he wasn't aware that he liked someone but did anyway, how would Rowling show it? What clues would she leave?

Question in a Hypothetical world. I'm not saying that this is going to happen. If in the next book let's say Harry admits whether to himself or to someone else that he has always liked Ginny. Would you be surprised by it? Hypotheticly speaking.

Gily Ann

[Dominique]

Well I'm not a R/Hr shipper but the problem that I see with what you list is that those are things that Harry shares with Hermione as a friend.

See? You are proving my point -- if you're not willing to even entertain the possibility that it MIGHT, just MIGHT be something else but friendship, you're going to be quite surprised if/when it turns out you were utterly wrong.

It isn't a coincidence that Ron is what Harry missed the most

Couldn't possibly be a plot device to have both Harry's best friends under water. Couldn't possibly be because Harry just got Ron back. Couldn't possibly that Harry has, since GoF, changed his mind about who is his best friend.

and that he describes him as his best friend in the world.

Where?

Often I find H/Hr shippers hating Ron or disregarding him as his role in Harry's life.

Fair enough. I'm not a Ron-hater, though, and it's been my experience that many R/Hr shippers feel the need to put Hermione down, so I guess that makes us all even in the end.

Hermione being his voice of conciense I would hardly consider this a shippy thing.

That's okay. I do consider it a shippy thing, if only because it shows just how important Hermione is to Harry.

If Hermione is the voice on Harry's head he describes the voice at some point as nagging.

Yes, and? Contrary to romance novels and Hollywood tripe, no relationship is without problems. And if Hermione "nagging" Harry is a problem for H/Hr, then it's probably an even bigger obstacle to R/Hr, given that Ron is far more annoyed by Hermione nagging than Ron (or at least more vocal about it).

Often the voice in our head is the one we don't want to hear and usually for a few years is the one of our mother's.

I could not possibly disagree more with this assertion.

Both Ron and Hermione already have a connection to Harry and know what the other is thinking.

I can't recall off the top of my head a moment in canon where Harry and Ron simply look at each other and know what the other is thinking; if such a moment is present, I humbly submit the times Harry and Hermione communicate non-verbally far outnumbers the times Harry and Ron do such a thing.

Even more is that I'm still failing to see how Harry shows signs of starting to have feelings for Hermione when he grabs her.

That's not what I said and it's not certainly not what I meant, either. What I meant was that Hermione has become the most important person in his life, although Harry himself hasn't realized it. While there were five other people nearby, including some people Harry didn't know whether they would be capable of handling themselves, Harry simply grabs Hermione. To me, it's a very "save one thing from a burning building" moment. You are welcome to disagree.

Because H/Hr shippers claim that Harry would saved anybody that would have been on the chamber

Yes, he would, because he has a "saving people thing". What kind of person would Harry be if he didn't want to save Colin or Susan Bones or a random first year Ravenclaw he'd never seen before in his life?
and that him protecting Ginny when Bella said to torture her is just because she is Ron's sister.

No, it's because he's madly in love with Ginny, that's why :rolleyes:.

Ok then but that is to me a big double standard if Harry has a hero saving thing like some H/Hr call it then him saving Hermione plays out as part of that big problem of saving people.

Not to me it doesn't. I'm focusing here on the part where it requires no conscious thought of Harry's to save Hermione. He doesn't analyze the situation, he doesn't pause to think who needs his help the most, he doesn't pause to figure out who's closest and thus easier to save -- he just grabs Hermione (even though Ginny was right behind him and Neville was so close his arm was pressed up against Harry's).

Another problem with this Harry has feelings for Hermione is that he several times regards as a nag and I don't think that's a good idea.

See above comments on the nagging. Additionally, I have nagged my boyfriend and he has nagged me. My parents nag each other. Every freaking couple I know nag each other.

But H/Hr insist to see this a good thing because Hermione takes care of Harry but Harry isn't an 11 year old anymore and I don't want nobody playing mother to Harry or taking care of him.

Nowhere in canon does Harry think Hermione "mothers" him and frankly, I'm getting a little annoyed by this argument. And Harry does need someone to take care of him; he would've been dead several times over if no one gives a **** about what he does. And taking care of him? People in relationships should not take care of each other? Man, that's, like, the best part! :D

He has to face the most evil wizard and alone.

With the aid of friends and loved ones, I should hope.

Harry will start coming into his own and need less assistance.

I think the complete opposite -- unity and combined strength is what will cause Voldemort's downfall. Harry can't do it on his own.

When it comes to H/Hr everything can be justify as Hermione caring for Harry and sometimes things are hard to go any other way by now Harry has had every opportunity to realize this feelings for Hermione or at least gives us some signs that he does like her in that way.

No, because Harry's been focused on Cho for the last three years, to the point where he probably forgot there were other girls in existence. Other than that, I could apply the same argument to H/G: Harry has had every opportunity to realize his feelings for Ginny, or at least give us some signs that he does like her in that way, especially considering her magical transformation into spunky!Ginny in OotP.

JKR even has used the almost killing Hermione and still there was nothing.

*shrug* Doesn't mean he'll never examine his strong reaction to Hermione's almost-death. Like with other such moments in canon, JKR hasn't allowed Harry to really think about what his reaction to her quasi-death means. She's also not allowed Harry to think about him as a possible rival for Hermione's attention, JKR's not allowed Harry to think about Hermione's presence in his life.

And just because he has never done so, does not mean he never will. (And H/Hr and H/G shippers should see eye-to-eye on this, actually, because I could apply the same argument to H/G.)

Hasn't been consider that he may just be not interested in her romantically?

Of course he can. I'd just like it if he did grew romantically interested in her. It's no big deal to me if it doesn't happen.

Why can't the Trio be kept friends? Would it be such a sin not to pair anyone and keep them friends?

It would not be a sin. Whatever JKR decides to do, I'll probably be okay with it.

[/i] If in the next book let's say Harry admits whether to himself or to someone else that he has always liked Ginny. Would you be surprised by it? Hypotheticly speaking.

Yes, because I feel H/G is the weakest "main" ship with barely any evidence to support it. Additionally, I would also be surprised because I can hardly imagine JKR sending the message that if you pine after a boy long enough, he'll eventually like you.

[ami padme]

While I agree that Luna's build-up wasn't for nothing, I don't see why that HAS to mean she will be Harry's future love interest. There are a million-and-one things Luna could be used for in the next two books -- Harry falling in love with her is just one of those things *shrug*.
Speaking for myself, I don't think I've ever said that she HAS to be Harry's (or anyone's) love interest. Obviously, I'm rooting for her to wind up with Harry, but none of us knows what's going to happen.


However, if I had to choose, I would vastly prefer Luna over Ginny as a romantic partner for Harry. I find her a much more rounded, interesting and fascinating character than Ginny, and I like the way JKR handled her characterization much better than the "tell, don't show" route she went with Ginny.
Completely, totally agree with you here!


On the other hand, though, I think that in canon, Luna has a crush on Ron, not Harry :).
Even if that were true in OotP, I don't think that's necessarily going to set in stone Luna's path (romantic and otherwise) in the next two books. We'll see.

[brighteyes]

I think Harry will end up with Luna, someone new or alone. Luna has been only present in one book, but still she was the only one Harry felt comfortable talking to in the end. Ginny as Harry's love interest really doesn't make sense. He has never noticed her, even the new supercool eversowonderful Ginny doesn't stir any romantic feelings in her, he forgot about her being possessed and even Ron forcing Ginny on him doesn't make him consider it.

I think Ron has a crush on Hermone that has to be dealt with on the next books, but I hope they won't end up together. Their personalities are far too different and they don't have anything in common besides Harry. I think Harry, Ron and Hermione are better off being friends.

So Hermione will end up with......Terry Boot. Terry was impressed by her in OotP and actually asked why she isn't in Ravenclaw. This is SO foreshadowing ;)
Anyway he would be much more suitable for Hermione than Harry or Ron, he is probably smarter than them and reads more (being in Ravenclaw).

Ginny will end up as serial-dater or with Neville. She defended him, when she said that he's not "nobody" and Neville obviously likes Ginny (he asked her to the Yule Ball, and ended up in Umbridge's office in the end of OotP for defending her).

[Mirtilla]

Originally posted by GryffindorGr
Of course friends and such can warn one another. I’m not saying they can’t. It’s just how I interpret it you know? That it can be portrayed as this. Besides if Dumbledore is male, then he would be acting fatherly. Ginny’s character has never been interfering and nagging (implied by Harry’s POV), it has always been Hermione who fit that bill. Like I said before in my past posts. This is not negative to us, but to Harry, like the kid he is, doesn’t like interference from nosey girls his age, (probably cause if it was McGonagall, he’d be more respectful and afraid) and one who is so bossy that we as readers make a note of it.

Perhaps Harry doesn’t like the nagging per se, however he likes to have Hermione’s attention. He used to have her full attention that’s why at the begging of ootp he didn’t feel sorry when he saw Hermione’s hands hurt by Hedwig. He expected more from her, he expected her to break the promise for him. Furthermore Hermione’s attitude towards Harry is not only the “nagging attitude”; actually those two shared a god amount of moments that are per se unique, in the sense that was limited to them. It seems that very often people keep concentrate themselves on “Hermione’s nagging “ forgetting that Harry and Hermione shared quality moments that no other have shared, most of these moments are so quality because they’re just between them and on something that only they know.- “Harry looked sideways at Hermione. "You know what these remind me of?" "No, what's that?" "The Death Eaters' scars. Voldemort touches one of them, and all their scars burn, and they know they've got to join him." "Well...yes," said Hermione quietly, "that is where I got the idea...but you'll notice I decided to engrave the date on bits of metal rather than on our members' skin." "Yeah...I prefer your way," said Harry, grinning, as he slipped his Galleon into his pocket.”
For example take into examination this scene. Clearly that’s a joke that only Hermione and Harry seemed to notice, or at least that’s the way Rowling write it. Furthermore they’re both lightened up by each other, then of course there’s Ron interruption that distracts us from the whole scene.
Again Harry finds Hermione enough enjoyable to actually share with her a joke
“Harry looked at Hermione, who peered back at him from between the fingers over her face. "Kind of makes you wish we had Norbert back, doesn't it" he said and she gave a very shaky laugh.”.
Of course Harry also paid a lot of more attention to Hermione then any other girls for the matter, just to give you few examples "Harry glanced up at Hermione to see how she felt about this new and more complicated method of dining - surely it meant plenty of extra work for the house elves?" or “She looked around at Harry, her face glowing, and he saw that the presence of hundreds of books had finally convinced Hermione that what they were doing was right.” While you can see all these things as platonic, motherly or whatever it’s undeniable that Harry paid more attention to Hermione then any other girls- by the way it’s also just interesting that Hermione, in the second example, looked at Harry even if in the scene Ron was present.

Oh I don’t know about that. About if Hermione wasn’t there and Harry would be in his room for another 48 hours. We can’t assume that either Ron, Ginny, Molly or Sirius won’t be knocking the door trying to find out what happened to him?
Why do you say that Hermione is the only one to tell Harry in his face that he was wrong, etc? Ginny did a good job with that too. Ron never really tells Harry right and wrong. Ron just seems to go along with what Harry wants.

Yes we can assume that they won’t be knocking at the door based on canon. Clearly they didn’t even try to knock- they just wait Harry to come back from his sabbatical. But this kind of attitude doesn’t work with Harry. As for Ginny, she didn’t a good job as it might seem. She simply told Harry that he had been basically an idiot and did he listen to her? No, in fact before believing Ginny’s words (about the fact that he hadn’t been possessed) he waited Hermione and Ron’s approval.

No, because in OotP, there was a more notable presence between H/hr but in GoF, it was on and off, and there was that tension between Ron, Harry and Hermione. I think it call comes from Ron really because of his jealousy and feelings of inadequacy. Poor guy. All he wanted was just to enjoy company with Viktor Krum and share his bed, his Gryffindor meals, etc. He clearly admired Krum. Then here comes Harry with all his glory and what must Ron think? Would he not admire Harry in the same way? What does one do when their best friend grabs all the glory that was supposedly intended for the glorious Krum in the first place?

No, I think that in GoF there was a good amount of time H/Hr, not as much as Ootp but surely there was. As for the tension yes there were tension and yes most of them came from Ron and his feelings of inadequacy. However he wasn’t a saint, by all means he shouldn’t have think that Harry put his name in the Goblet. That was a big mistake and even in ootp the reader can see some sort of tension between Harry and Ron, and to me their come from GoF.

Even with Ron’s jealousy and anger, they still hung out together, in classes, meals, their dorms. I’m sure in those instances that Ron was away from Harry, Ron was still around.

By this logic we can also say that even Dean Thomas was hanging around with Harry all the time in classes, meals, their dorms. Clearly we can’t say that Dean and Ron spent the same amount of time with Harry. The same goes for Hermione and Ron for that particular space of time in GoF. Ron was present as much as Dean Thomas was, he was mentioned more because he’s Ron and he’s more important then him. However Ron didn’t share his meal sitting next to Harry like Hermione, Ron didn’t go with Harry at Hogsmeade like Hermione did, Ron didn’t spend his nights with Harry trying to find a solution for the first task like Hermione did, and finally Ron doesn’t walk in the corridors of the school at Harry’s side like Hermione did. So no, the article wasn’t out of proportion in saying that Hermione and Harry were basically inseparable.

Maybe I just don’t get that part why JKR wants the public or seems to want the public to focus on R/hr. It’s either a set up or she really wants them to get together. Thankfully, for you guys (h/hrs) there are times when I’m glad you all have different analyses. *whew* this is just my honest opinion. But you know, maybe it’ll change in book 6 and Ron is this wonderful guy to Hermione and everything is all said and done and forgiven. That he’s into SPEW with Hermione, knits with her, and respects her.

Well If it changes so suddenly it’d be just bad written, usually changes like those you mentioned need time and knowing that both Hermione and Ron aren’t the protagonist it’d be very hard and believable to write all this changes in one or two books, anyway that’s just me. As for the analysis, ah well yes we’ve a lot of different analysis and it’s interesting how a h/hr shipper can see certain scene (even our own shipping scene) in a totally different light from another H/hr shipper, not to mention how many different vision we’ve of Ron’s character. But hey, that’s the fun of debating with your own shipmate.

You can’t convince me that Harry is similar to how the twins are, or how James is, because I’ve never seen it in canon, unless you yourself find it, that Harry “nicks” things, like a thief, or that Harry makes jokes like the twins, etc. Nope. None of that. Harry is decidedly his own person and character.

Sure Harry is his own person and character, where I said he wasn’t? I was just saying that he’s similar to James, oh and even Harry is able to make some nasty comments to Malfoy- just check the scene where Umbridge asked how Hagrid is as teacher. Malfoy said a lot of bad stuff saying that he was also hurt by a hippogriff, in that exact moment Harry said something along the lines of “just because you’re too stupid to listen to Hagrid”.


Cheers,
Mirtilla---- :rotfl: at Mike!

[GilyAnn]

Dominique:

See? You are proving my point -- if you're not willing to even entertain the possibility that it MIGHT, just MIGHT be something else but friendship, you're going to be quite surprised if/when it turns out you were utterly wrong.

Believe me I have play with the possibilities in every book, but nothing leads me to those instances being shippy. As hard as it may be to swallowed I do ponder possibilites but the H/Hr shippy instances have gap in it that very often can't get filled in. Also if the idea that H/Hr can remain friends isn't being consider at least. I could see that people can be headed for a dissapointment. Often the idea is shoved off and not even being consider that can lead on to a big dissapointment if H/Hr doesn't happen.

Couldn't possibly be a plot device to have both Harry's best friends under water. Couldn't possibly be because Harry just got Ron back. Couldn't possibly that Harry has, since GoF, changed his mind about who is his best friend.

Why didn't she used Hermione then? This was an instance where JKR could have used it to point towards Hermione's role in the series but she used Ron instead.

Where?


Harry gave a small snort of laughter. A second later he felt sickened with
himself. Ron had not asked Dumbledore to give him the prefect badge. This was not Ron's fault. Was he, Harry, Ron's best friend in the world, going to sulk because he didn't have a badge, laugh with the twins behind Ron's back, ruin this for Ron when, for the first time, he had beaten Harry at something?

I apologize for the hurry and my misspelling. Harry is Ron's best friend in the world. It may be choosed to be interpreted as Harry is important to Ron but Ron is not important to harry. Just in case.

Fair enough. I'm not a Ron-hater, though, and it's been my experience that many R/Hr shippers feel the need to put Hermione down, so I guess that makes us all even in the end.

You see I have very clearly Hermione's role in this series. What I don't agree is that she is above Ron. I see Harry's sidekicks as equals in his life.

That's okay. I do consider it a shippy thing, if only because it shows just how important Hermione is to Harry.

How??

Yes, and? Contrary to romance novels and Hollywood tripe, no relationship is without problems. And if Hermione "nagging" Harry is a problem for H/Hr, then it's probably an even bigger obstacle to R/Hr, given that Ron is far more annoyed by Hermione nagging than Ron (or at least more vocal about it).

Oh I agree about Ron annoyed with Hermione's nagging and trust me I'm eager to know how is JKR going to pull that one off! That's the only thing that still gives me the ray of hope that the series end with them all being friends. :eyebrows:

I can't recall off the top of my head a moment in canon where Harry and Ron simply look at each other and know what the other is thinking; if such a moment is present, I humbly submit the times Harry and Hermione communicate non-verbally far outnumbers the times Harry and Ron do such a thing.

One time I can think off at the top of my head. Is when Hermione talks about the DA and Harry thinks he is going to share with Ron's an exasperated look and he doesn't. Another one is when Hermione talks about the hair to be pulled out and Harry and Ron looked at each other incredulously. Both thinking about how bad the idea is. My point isn't who wins and has more times thinking about what the other is thinking. My point is that this isn't exclusively to H/Hr which showed their connection towards a more of a romantic side. Harry shares that with Lupin, Ron and heck even Ginny knew what he was thinking when he looked at Ron.

That's not what I said and it's not certainly not what I meant, either. What I meant was that Hermione has become the most important person in his life, although Harry himself hasn't realized it. While there were five other people nearby, including some people Harry didn't know whether they would be capable of handling themselves, Harry simply grabs Hermione. To me, it's a very "save one thing from a burning building" moment. You are welcome to disagree.

I apologize but that's what I'm understanding. Harry knew perfectly well that Ron is capable of handling himself and if you look at that part Hermione is behind Harry.

"RUN!" Harry yelled, as the shelves swayed precariously and more glass
spheres began to fall from above. He seized a handful of Hermione's robes and
dragged her forwards, holding one arm over his head as chunks of shelf and shards of glass thundered down upon them. A Death Eater lunged forwards through the cloud of dust and Harry elbowed him hard in the masked face; they were all yelling, there were cries of pain, and thunderous crashes as the shelves collapsed upon themselves, weirdly echoing fragments of the Seers unleashed from their spheres—

Now if Harry has a hero saving thing and he has to drag Hermione forward. It means that she is standing behind him. Now once again and using the H/Hr logic Harry wouldn't walk off and leave Hermione behind her. First because he is the hero and that would be very un-hero like and second because his hero saving complex wouldn't let him. Also wouldn't the word dragged suggest that Hermione was standing there frozen over what was happening?

Yes, he would, because he has a "saving people thing". What kind of person would Harry be if he didn't want to save Colin or Susan Bones or a random first year Ravenclaw he'd never seen before in his life?

I still don't get an answer to my question. What kind of a hero would be Harry is he keeps on walking when he knows Hermione is behind him? According to this logic it isn't that Harry has feelings for Hermione is that as a hero he wouldn't and couldn't leave her behind.

No, it's because he's madly in love with Ginny, that's why .

Darn and here I thought it was because she was part of the group in danger and because of Harry having that Hero saving complex. Ok then if you say so! :p

Not to me it doesn't. I'm focusing here on the part where it requires no conscious thought of Harry's to save Hermione. He doesn't analyze the situation, he doesn't pause to think who needs his help the most, he doesn't pause to figure out who's closest and thus easier to save -- he just grabs Hermione (even though Ginny was right behind him and Neville was so close his arm was pressed up against Harry's).

Ok but Harry doesn't have time to calculate anything on this battle! If Harry has a saving Complex he has it at all times! It isn't clicking with me that Harry's hero saving complex only acts when he has time to calcuate thing. Which the arguments fails is that Harry didn't think to have time to save Sirius. He just wanted to save him, just as he would saved anybody whether subconciously or consiously.

Nowhere in canon does Harry think Hermione "mothers" him and frankly, I'm getting a little annoyed by this argument. And Harry does need someone to take care of him; he would've been dead several times over if no one gives a **** about what he does. And taking care of him? People in relationships should not take care of each other? Man, that's, like, the best part!

People can't take care of Harry because then It's my personal guaranteed then that Harry isn't going to make it. He is going to die. This isn't Hermione, Ron, Ginny's or not even Dumbledore's story. It's Harry's and him alone has to conquer this stuff. He has to go about his own way in handling stuff, not anyone elses. All the other people are there for his support but Harry alone is the one who deals with that stuff. As for Hermione's mothering I'm talking about her attitude towards him which BTW Ron does it also. I'm not saying that is a trait exclusively of Hermione's.

With the aid of friends and loved ones, I should hope.

I think the complete opposite -- unity and combined strength is what will cause Voldemort's downfall. Harry can't do it on his own.

I'm not expecting that and this journey suggest that it would be Harry alone the one that will defeat him. Sure his friends are going to be there for supporting him but actively taking a part I only see Harry alone. Nobody else. There is a difference between Harry friends supporting him and them actually playing a part in the defeat. I think that while they are going to be there to support Harry in the end it's Harry alone.

No, because Harry's been focused on Cho for the last three years, to the point where he probably forgot there were other girls in existence. Other than that, I could apply the same argument to H/G: Harry has had every opportunity to realize his feelings for Ginny, or at least give us some signs that he does like her in that way, especially considering her magical transformation into spunky!Ginny in OotP.

Actually the problem that I see with that is that according to H/Hr logic(not my own), H/G haven't had the time that Hermione and Harry have. Then Harry actually haven't got the time to discover his 'feelings' for Ginny. And I disagree while Harry has been interested in Cho he certainly didn't play blind. He was aware that Padma, Patil, Hermione and Fleur were pretty girls.

*shrug* Doesn't mean he'll never examine his strong reaction to Hermione's almost-death. Like with other such moments in canon, JKR hasn't allowed Harry to really think about what his reaction to her quasi-death means. She's also not allowed Harry to think about him as a possible rival for Hermione's attention, JKR's not allowed Harry to think about Hermione's presence in his life.

And just because he has never done so, does not mean he never will. (And H/Hr and H/G shippers should see eye-to-eye on this, actually, because I could apply the same argument to H/G.)

But he already have had the opportunity. Honestly speaking JKR has used a lot of plot devices for Harry to realize his feeligns and while he does apreciate her as a friend he doens't think of her romantically. How can JKR in literature make a reaction of a past even later on in the series? It wouldn't make any sense that Harry would say that he wanted to die the moment he saw Hermione dead because that isn't what he thinks and that isn't was he implies.

JKR has already made Harry seen her as pretty girl. Harry already knows that and he still doesn't show or act like he likes her. Sure I'll give you that he doesn't think she is ugly( which I don't consider good either but I'm willing to put it as point) and he mentions that she looks pretty but so does he think of Fleur and he doesn't act on it. H/Hr have already have already had had a fight and stopped talking to each other, she has already kissed him on the cheek and hugged him. He has already seem her with another boy and having a good time and he didn't mind at all and he had that same boy comfront him and he still think that she is a great friend. What else does Harry needs? I can't shoved off that this is literature and certain patterns aren't fitting this idea. While JKR may want her books to have a resemblance to real life there are cetain traits that she doesn't escape. She still bounded that this is a magical world and this is a book. She has show it over the past 5 books and is a trait of her.

Of course he can. I'd just like it if he did grew romantically interested in her. It's no big deal to me if it doesn't happen.

I don't understand this. Does this mean that the possiblility has been consider? where? Did I missed that many pages of this or the other thread or was it some place else? Do you have a link or was that a personal opinion? I don't get this at all.

Yes, because I feel H/G is the weakest "main" ship with barely any evidence to support it. Additionally, I would also be surprised because I can hardly imagine JKR sending the message that if you pine after a boy long enough, he'll eventually like you.


Ok this is by no means trying to corner your and I'm simply asking out of personal curiosity. Has it ever been consider that perhaps your view of a 'weak main ship' has more to do with your own resistant because of your shipping preferences rather than what JKR has put in the books? I'll explain myself in my case just so I don't get any misunderstandings and accusations of insulting people. I don't think that H/Hr is going to happen not because I don't want it too but because under what I have seen of literature patterns and traits H/Hr are for me destain to remain friends and to some extent I see the same for R/Hr. However the problem with R/Hr is I have to consider is that JKR put feelings on Ron and whether she likes him back or not (which I believe she does. sorry) then that breaks the possibilities of R/Hr being the same as H/Hr. I want them to remain friends but the fact that there are feelings between R/Hr and that doesn't fit my idea of being the same as H/Hr. My views on this have to separate from what it's written. I don't know if i'm explaining myself but taking out of shipping. Sirius was one of my favorite characters and I want him bad to come back. But no matter how bad I want this I have to accept that there is a huge chance that he isn't. :td: :upset:

I understand that is your opinionn and trust me I'm allright with that. I don't expect the whole world to like Ginny. What I don't get is why did you felt that Ginny was a no show and all tell thing?. Would you have felt better if Harry would have seen her? Have you consider the possibility that JKR may have done this so there would be no doubt of Ginny's powers or abilities because she needs that? Thinking about your view did you felt cheated that Harry was in a bad mood for most of the book? Did you consider that it was badly written that Sirius was caged on in OotP? What I'm trying to ask is if in those instances you were unhappy with JKR's development of things and seemed she wasn't accurate or fair with it. I'm asking because I'm still not understanding this problem of all tell and no show idea.

Gily Ann

[noddwyd]

yes. they are equal. equal, but too different to ever really get along all that well. Really though, JKR is right in saying that Harry needs Hermione more than Ron does. I think that, whether they develop any kind of romance within the series or not, Harry and Hermione's relationship is the most important one in the story, and if it is lost or lessened any then I hold the firm belief that Voldemort will win this war. Or at the very least, it will take Harry's life, even if they win. I really think that Harry could lose his friendship with Ron and still be okay; as long as Hermione does not desert him as well, for whatever reason. Truthfully, this has already happened once. In GoF. She didn't leave Harry alone. Even when the whole school was turned against him, including Ron, his supposed 'best friend'.

Oh, and by the way, we are behind schedule. This is supposed to be resolved, since, according to JKR we've had enough clues already. The thing is....which clues? We've got loads of them, of course. The problem is we have too many clues. And some of them seem to contradict each other. Which can mean only one thing. red herring. So the hounds are off the scent, and you're on your own.

have fun, everyone.

[ami padme]

I think Harry will end up with Luna, someone new or alone. Luna has been only present in one book, but still she was the only one Harry felt comfortable talking to in the end.I do think that LoneHero!Harry is a decent possibility. I know JKR says Harry will have some romance in the next two books despite being busy with Voldemort and school, and I think that's a good thing...but whether one of the romances will turn out to be his forever true-love is another thing.

I want him to wind up with Luna, long-term, of course. :) I agree that Luna had a strong impact in one book, which makes me eager to see what she can do in two more. And yes, Harry's conversation with her at the end -- and the effect it had on him -- is a huge factor in why I ship H/L (there are other reasons as well, but that talk was a big deal, IMO).


Also, brighteyes, I agree with your take on Ginny and H/G...and though I'm not completely sold on N/G, I can see some possibilities there.

[MagicianGirl]

I think Harry will end up with Luna, someone new or alone. Luna has been only present in one book, but still she was the only one Harry felt comfortable talking to in the end.
He also felt pity on her which was the warmest feeling that Harry have for Luna.What a good foundation for a relationship then; based on pity.

Ginny as Harry's love interest really doesn't make sense. He has never noticed her, even the new supercool eversowonderful Ginny doesn't stir any romantic feelings in her, he forgot about her being possessed and even Ron forcing Ginny on him doesn't make him consider it.
And Luna does:rolleyes:. Did Harry noticed Luna romantically? Did Harry noticed her?

Ginny will end up as serial-dater or with Neville. She defended him, when she said that he's not "nobody"
And she defended Harry against Malfoy when Malfoy was taunting him :rolleyes:

and Neville obviously likes Ginny (he asked her to the Yule Ball,As a last resort since his first choice Hermione had a date already. Don't forget that he asked Hermione first.

and ended up in Umbridge's office in the end of OotP for defending her).
Harry almost died saving Ginny in a fate worse than the I-Squad and succeeded more than Neville, sheesh

[sone]

As a last resort since his first choice Hermione had a date already. Don't forget that he asked Hermione first.

And maybe just like Ron to Hermione, maybe Neville started taking a liking to Ginny. Last resort until they figured that they should of been their first resort.

Harry almost died saving Ginny in a fate worse than the I-Squad and succeeded more than Neville, sheesh

But that wasn't because he was romantically interested in her and he also had more help. On the other hand, it may of been possible that Neville did what he did because he has a romantic interest in Ginny.

[springthing4]

i think that neville likes ginny because he went with her to the ball in gof and in ootp, when harry was checking the fire to see if siruis was there, and luna, ginny and ron were keeping guard, malfoy and other slytherins come back with them and neville,and he says neville tried to stop me taking ginny, so i brought him too. now if you're going to say he wanted to stop them all, then wouldn't he help ron first? since they're better friends, or are they..??

[MagicianGirl]

And maybe just like Ron to Hermione, maybe Neville started taking a liking to Ginny. Last resort until they figured that they should of been their first resort.
LOL! I think that Neville still likes Hermione and I'd seen more canon evidence between N/Hr than N/G. Neville was the first boy in Hogwarts to notice that Hermione is a girl but alas she's taken by Vicky. Also, Ginny didn't seem to enjoy her date with Neville when he kept trodding on her feet and instead of hooking up with him she went out with Michael. Oh yeah, romantic liking, indeed.


But that wasn't because he was romantically interested in her and he also had more help. On the other hand, it may of been possible that Neville did what he did because he has a romantic interest in Ginny.
LOL! Somehow I knew you're gonna say that. If it's Harry doing something for Ginny it's because it's such and such but if it's Neville it's a romantic sign; typical double standard. Neville also carried Hermione around the DoM and I think that it's because Neville has a romantic interest in her. :eyebrows:

[sone]

LOL! I think that Neville still likes Hermione and I'd seen more canon evidence between N/Hr than N/G. Neville was the first boy in Hogwarts to notice that Hermione is a girl but alas she's taken by Vicky. Also, Ginny didn't seem to enjoy her date with Neville when he kept trodding on her feet and instead of hooking up with him she went out with Michael. Oh yeah, romantic liking, indeed.

But that is from Ginny's perspective not Neville's which is whose perspective I was speaking of on top of Ron's. Yes, he does want to ask Hermione to the Yule Ball, but that doesn't mean he is the first one to recognize she is a girl. Just the first boy at Hogwarts to ask her out because he is interested in her as a girl.

LOL! Somehow I knew you're gonna say that. If it's Harry doing something for Ginny it's because it's such and such but if it's Neville it's a romantic sign; typical double standard. Neville also carried Hermione around the DoM and I think that it's because Neville has a romantic interest in her. :eyebrows:

Well Harry has never shown an romantic interest in Ginny before and he has known for years that she liked him. That is why I said he did not go down to the Chamber of Secrets because he was romantically interested in her. Even back then her romantic intentions towards Harry were unwanted by him. Also I said it was possible that Neville may be interested in Ginny romantically. If you want argue that possible means certainty then be my guest.

Chapt. 32 Out of the Fire

'Got 'em all,' said Warrington, shoving Ron roughly forwards into the room. That one,' he poked a thick finger at Neville, 'tried to stop me taking her,' he pointed at Ginny, who was trying to kick the shins of the large Slytherin girl holding her, 'so I brought him along too.'

Also Neville only carried Hermione around because he wanted to stick with Harry. Harry wanted Neville to carry her out and sound the alarm. Neville had no choice but to take Hermione along because Harry wasn't going anywhere without her if he could help it.

[springthing4]

i completely agree with you sone...but i don't know if ginny likes neville back...

[brighteyes]

And Luna does. Did Harry noticed Luna romantically? Did Harry noticed her?


Harry has not noticed Ginny for 4 years, he has not noticed Luna for 1 year. I'm not saying that Harry and Luna are interested in each other romantically yet, just that it's more likely that he will notice Luna in the future.

LOL! I think that Neville still likes Hermione and I'd seen more canon evidence between N/Hr than N/G. Neville was the first boy in Hogwarts to notice that Hermione is a girl but alas she's taken by Vicky. Also, Ginny didn't seem to enjoy her date with Neville when he kept trodding on her feet and instead of hooking up with him she went out with Michael. Oh yeah, romantic liking, indeed.


Neville is a very insecure boy. I think he only asked Hermione, because she was the closest thing he had to a female friend and she had always helped him with potions and stuff. So he wasn't intimidated by her. I wouldn't be surprised if the Neville/Ginny date was actually set up by Hermione.


LOL! Somehow I knew you're gonna say that. If it's Harry doing something for Ginny it's because it's such and such but if it's Neville it's a romantic sign; typical double standard. Neville also carried Hermione around the DoM and I think that it's because Neville has a romantic interest in her. :eyebrows:

The difference is that Harry has "saving people thing" and Neville doesn't. Harry would save anyone from anything, Neville is less prone to thoughtless heroics.

Though I would prefer Neville/Hermione to Hermione ending up with Harry or Ron.

[FreckledApples]

Not to me it doesn't. I'm focusing here on the part where it requires no conscious thought of Harry's to save Hermione. He doesn't analyze the situation, he doesn't pause to think who needs his help the most, he doesn't pause to figure out who's closest and thus easier to save -- he just grabs Hermione (even though Ginny was right behind him and Neville was so close his arm was pressed up against Harry's).

hermione was also very close to him... if you can recall its her foot he steps on when he wants to tell them to knock down shelves. if you want to get all mathy about it ths is how i figure: harry is in front, ginny is right behind him, neville is a little bit behind him on his left or right and the same with hermione. to me it would make more since to reach to either your left or right and not turn around to grab someone when your life is at stake. thats why harry grabbed hermione she was the one beside him and because you arm streches that way-he grabbed her. thats why he didnt grab ginny! she was behind him and if i was in a life threatening situation iwould not turn around and grab someone i would grab the one i could first-which would be on my side-who woul have been neville or hermione and i guessing the one farthest from escaping was hermione therefore he grabbed her.
i hope that makes since

[MagicianGirl]

But that is from Ginny's perspective not Neville's which is whose perspective I was speaking of on top of Ron's.
Which showed how one sided this N/G romance is. N/G had their chance to kick their relationship up a notch when they went to the Yule Ball together but instead Ginny went out with another boy.


Yes, he does want to ask Hermione to the Yule Ball, but that doesn't mean he is the first one to recognize she is a girl. Just the first boy at Hogwarts to ask her out because he is interested in her as a girl.
Of course it did. He recognized that she was a girl before Ron or even Harry.


Well Harry has never shown an romantic interest in Ginny before and he has known for years that she liked him. That is why I said he did not go down to the Chamber of Secrets because he was romantically interested in her.
I know that Harry never shown romantic interest with her yet So why did he go down in the Chamber then? His saving people thing? Sheesh, he was 12, what he did went beyond the call of duty and he wasn't even close with her at all. I am also interested on why Harry went down there, to fight a deadly basilisk one-on-one. In fact the only time that Harry went so far and laid everything on the line was when rescuing Sirius and we all know that Harry cared a lot for Sirius. In my opinion, he went down to the chamber because he cares for Ginny a lot (not in love mind you).

Also I said it was possible that Neville may be interested in Ginny romantically. If you want argue that possible means certainty then be my guest.
I will because I think that Neville may be interested with Hermione.

Chapt. 32 Out of the Fire

'Got 'em all,' said Warrington, shoving Ron roughly forwards into the room. That one,' he poked a thick finger at Neville, 'tried to stop me taking her,' he pointed at Ginny, who was trying to kick the shins of the large Slytherin girl holding her, 'so I brought him along too.'
This showing nothing remotely romantic. It showed a friend trying to stop another friend from being hurt by the I-Squad. I don't know why being protected or rescued can be used as romantic evidence for any ship but H/G

Also Neville only carried Hermione around because he wanted to stick with Harry. Harry wanted Neville to carry her out and sound the alarm. Neville had no choice but to take Hermione along because Harry wasn't going anywhere without her if he could help it.
It was sweet of him wasn't it. Harry didn't even tried to help until Neville glared at him.

[sone]

she was behind him and if i was in a life threatening situation iwould not turn around and grab someone i would grab the one i could first-which would be on my side-who woul have been neville or hermione and i guessing the one farthest from escaping was hermione therefore he grabbed her.

But were not talking about you, were talking about Harry. Bearing all of that in mind, they were all behind Harry since he had the prophecy. Nevertheless, it still shows a pattern of Harry taking the initiative to protect Hermione. They're no passages of Hermione freezing or her distance from Harry or whatever the hell else excuse can be made so guessing would be the best one could do. It reminds of Hermione grabbing Harry's arm. It is sometimes argued she could grab anyone or that she would be too nervous to grab Ron's arm, etc but nevertheless, she always grabs Harry's arm or just Harry himself.

P.S.

Of course it did. He recognized that she was a girl before Ron or even Harry.

No, he recognized she was a girl before Ron but not Harry. However, Neville did show genuine interest in Hermione before Harry did.

I know that Harry never shown romantic interest with her yet So why did he go down in the Chamber then? His saving people thing? Sheesh, he was 12, what he did went beyond the call of duty and he wasn't even close with her at all. I am also interested on why Harry went down there, to fight a deadly basilisk one-on-one.

Because that is who Harry is. He risked fighting with all those merpeople in an attempt to save all the hostages and he didn't know Gabrielle. Even Hermione thought he got carried away. But that is the type of person Harry is. He will go through great lengths to save a person if he thinks he can. Of course he cares for Ginny. Why would he want her to die? When I argue that he doesn't like her romantically, I am not also arguing that he hates her because he doesn't. In fact, in CoS, he was quite kind to her. Originally going down into the Chamber wasn't his idea and he wasn't even going to do it alone until he had no choice and it was clear that Lockhart was going to let her body rot.

This showing nothing remotely romantic. It showed a friend trying to stop another friend from being hurt by the I-Squad. I don't know why being protected or rescued can be used as romantic evidence for any ship but H/G

For one, it isn't. For two, this is why I said possible that Neville liked Ginny, not certain. I'm not even a Neville/Ginny shipper because I do not believe Ginny returns any romantic feelings for Neville. I'm only a H/Hr shipper.

It was sweet of him wasn't it. Harry didn't even tried to help until Neville glared at him.

Harry didn't want to help Neville drag Hermione around looking for the others. He wanted Hermione out of the DoM, not being dragged around in it because Neville bravely wanted to stick with him.

[ami padme]

He also felt pity on her which was the warmest feeling that Harry have for Luna.What a good foundation for a relationship then; based on pity.
Personally, I'd think that the "terrible weight" lessening is a "wamer" feeling (however that's determined) than the pity he felt over her things being stolen. It's at least as important as Harry surprising himself by feeling sorry for her instead of the anger/grief he had been feeling so often after the MoM battle. So I don't see how pity could be the "foundation" -- as if that's the only thing he ever felt regarding Luna, or even the most important thing.

(And for me, Harry's reaction seems about right. I'm not sure what other reaction would have been "better" when Luna's explaining that people have taken many of her things because they find her odd and Loony. Given the circumstances/conversation, as long as Harry's paying attention and gives a whit one way or the other, feeling sorry for her makes sense to me. In fact, I think that's why it made an impression on Harry -- he was surprised to find that even with all his anger and grief over Sirius, that he did care at all about what was happening to Luna.)

Pity is not the only thing Harry feels for Luna, and being sorry for her predicament at the end is not the only he thinks about her. I wouldn't even say that those were the only things he thinks/feels about her during that conversation.


IMO, the foundation for H/L is solid, should JKR choose to pursue them as a romantic couple.


Did Harry noticed Luna romantically? Did Harry noticed her?
I don't believe he's noticed her romantically, or that there's anything romantic going on between the two of them, yet. I don't think that means that things couldn't develop over the next two books.

[yo_dawg_sup?]

Me, I'm a R/H shipper, but i dont really know about Harry...

There are soo many hints towards Ron and Hermione. For example, Ron gets furious everytime Krum's name is mentioned, just becuase he went to the Yule ball with Hermione and he used to love Krum. I think he wanted to ask Hermione to the Yule ball, but was too scared, so he would make it look like a last resort (which he did) but when Hermione already had a date, he was furious. And the fight after the Yule ball... Hermione says "if you wanted to ask me why didnt you just ask me instead of making me a last resort!"(not exact words, but something like it) and Ron walks off, and Harry says "i think you understand him better than he does"(yet again not exact words, but something like it) So even Harry hints towards it. And not only the Yule ball! the books are full of tension between the 2! and there isnt tension between harry and hermione because they are just friends. but yeah

as for Harry and Luna, I think that Harry just viewed Luna as a freak and didnt really interest in a conversation with her, but after talking to her in the end of OotP, i think he finds comfort in knowing that he is not alone in what he's going through, and she believes him and gives him hope, and i think that makes Harry more interested in being friends with her. As a dating relationship, i think its too soon to tell, since OotP ends with their first actual, i-dont-think-you're-a-freak conversation... so I guess i'll have to wait for book 6 before jumping to conclusions about Harry and Luna

yeah.. hello.. i'm new here

[brighteyes]

Personally, I'd think that the "terrible weight" lessening is a "wamer" feeling (however that's determined) than the pity he felt over her things being stolen.


"the terrible weight in his stomach- seemed to have lessened slightly."
Another point for Harry/Luna. Rowling seems to associate romatic feeling with digestion for some reason (as seen in Harry's reaction to Cho), so mentioning weights in stomachs is foreshadowing ;)
Has Ginny ever influenced Harry's stomach?

Also Luna LOVEgood is much more appropriate name for hero's a love interest than Ginny Weasley.

Ginny belongs with Tom or Neville.

[FreckledApples]

:welcome: yo_dawg_sup?!! it's nice to see you found your way here! im glad theres another r/hr shipper aboard!! hope you like it here!

[yo_dawg_sup?]

:welcome: yo_dawg_sup?!! it's nice to see you found your way here! im glad theres another r/hr shipper aboard!! hope you like it here!
thanks! :D

[yo_dawg_sup?]

hermione was also very close to him... if you can recall its her foot he steps on when he wants to tell them to knock down shelves. if you want to get all mathy about it ths is how i figure: harry is in front, ginny is right behind him, neville is a little bit behind him on his left or right and the same with hermione. to me it would make more since to reach to either your left or right and not turn around to grab someone when your life is at stake. thats why harry grabbed hermione she was the one beside him and because you arm streches that way-he grabbed her. thats why he didnt grab ginny! she was behind him and if i was in a life threatening situation iwould not turn around and grab someone i would grab the one i could first-which would be on my side-who woul have been neville or hermione and i guessing the one farthest from escaping was hermione therefore he grabbed her.
i hope that makes since

and keep in mind too, Hermione has been one of his best friends since 1st year... so they've been best friends 5 years, appose to Ginny who has just been talking to him since the previous year, and Neville, who was also harry's friend, but not one of his best. I think that between those 3 people, he definatly would have picked his best friend, and she is also the smartest of the lot, so it would be important for her to be around and him to pick her and shtuff like zat
but yeah.. and i agree with you (freckledapples) this is to help support what you said and yeah

[Shob]

I personally don`t think it was sweet,when Neville draged Hermione with him and Harry.It was selfish.
Neville knew that he`s bad fighter and that he can`t help Harry much.He even didn`t know Sirius.Yet he wanted to come with Harry.Why?
Well,obviously he wanted to prove Harry and especially himself,that he can be useful. He wanted to show,that he can overcome his fear and be brave.He didn`t care about Hermione at all.His own needs were much more important to him.And he risked not only his own life but also Hermione`s.
It was brave,yes.But also selfish.
It shows actually that Harry cares about Hermione much more than Neville does and in fact it is clue against N/Hr.

[WeasleyIsOurKing]

Ginny belongs with Tom or Neville.

Tom? Who is Tom? Please tell me we aren't talking about Tom Riddle. The idea is absurd.

Neville has a better chance than a mere memory.

[brighteyes]

Tom? Who is Tom? Please tell me we aren't talking about Tom Riddle. The idea is absurd.

Neville has a better chance than a mere memory.

I certainly wasn't talking about Tom the innkeeper.
I forgot we were talking strictly canon here. Sorry.

[esicardi]

"the terrible weight in his stomach- seemed to have lessened slightly."
Another point for Harry/Luna. Rowling seems to associate romatic feeling with digestion for some reason (as seen in Harry's reaction to Cho), so mentioning weights in stomachs is foreshadowing ;).Harry's stomach does not only react when he sees Cho, it has reacted in several different tension circunstances that have nothing to do with romance. In the scene with Luna, Harry's stomach is reacting to the presion of losing Sirius and the prophecy all together, and I don't see nothing romantic there.
Let's see some other "stomach" examples (bold mine):

From OotP, Ch. 1 Dudley Demented
The opening notes of the music that heralded the seven o'clock news reached Harry's ears and his stomach turned over. Perhaps tonight - after a month of waiting - would be the night.
'Record numbers of stranded holiday makers fill airports as the Spanish baggage-handlers' strike reaches its second week -
'Give 'em a lifelong siesta, I would,' snarled Uncle Vernon over the end of the newsreader's sentence, but no matter: outside in the flowerbed, Harrys stomach seemed to unclench. If anything had happened, it would surely have been the first item on the news; death and destruction were more important than stranded holidaymakers.
In this scene Harry is expecting for news about Voldemort, hiding from the Dursleys in the flowerbed under the window. Applying your logic should we asumme Harry is either romantically attracted for Voldemort or one of the Dursleys?

From OotP, Ch. 1 Dudley Demented
'I heard you last night,' said Dudley breathlessly. Talking in your sleep. Moaning.'
'What d'you mean?' Harry said again, but there was a cold, plunging sensation in his stomach. He had revisited the graveyard last night in his dreams.
Dudley gave a harsh bark of laughter, then adopted a high-pitched whimpering voice.
'"Don't kill Cedric! Don't kill Cedric!" Who's Cedric - your boyfriend?'
'I - you're lying,' said Harry automatically. But his mouth had gone dry. He knew Dudley wasn't lying -how else would he know about Cedric?
Would you say Harry's romantically attracted to Dudley or Cedric in this scene?

I could quote more examples if you want, but I believe with this two is enough for supporting my point: "stomach feelings" are not necessarily a romantic indicator in HP.

Bye!
:cool:
esicardi

[enowonkenobi]

Originally Posted by yo-sup-dawg:
There are soo many hints towards Ron and Hermione.
All of the evidence we've seen so far only shows Ron has a crush on Hermione. No evidence at all that Hermione returns these feelings.

For example, Ron gets furious everytime Krum's name is mentioned, just becuase he went to the Yule ball with Hermione and he used to love Krum. I think he wanted to ask Hermione to the Yule ball, but was too scared, so he would make it look like a last resort (which he did) but when Hermione already had a date, he was furious. And the fight after the Yule ball... Hermione says "if you wanted to ask me why didnt you just ask me instead of making me a last resort!"(not exact words, but something like it) and Ron walks off, and Harry says "i think you understand him better than he does"(yet again not exact words, but something like it)

I think the exact quote by Hermione was, "Next time there's a ball, ask me before someone else does, and not as a last resort!" Hermione was furious at Ron because he basically treated her like **** at the ball. Nowhere does it imply that she wanted to go with Ron.

So even Harry hints towards it.
Harry felt that Hermione "got the point a lot better than Ron did"- that Ron shouldnt have treated her that way at the ball.
As for hints, Krum, Cho, Rita Skeeter, and even Ron has hinted towards Harry/Hermione (note Ron's sharp reaction to Hermione's comment that Harry is not a bad kisser in OotP)

and there isnt tension between harry and hermione because they are just friends. but yeah
It seems like everyone's always saying that R/Hr is "obvious" and H/Hr is always "just friends" these days. There is plenty of canon evidence that hints H/Hr are not only "just friends". As my fellow shipper Dominique said in an earlier post,
Originally Posted by Dominique:
The problem with some R/Hr shippers is that they refuse to even CONSIDER the possibility that Harry thinking of Hermione a lot, that Hermione is Harry's voice of conscience, that Harry automatically reaches for Hermione when under attack, that Hermione talks about Harry very often, could actually be a sign of something more than friendship. The clues are there, but if you insist on interpreting them as "mere friendship", you have no one to blame but yourself if you end up stunned if/when Harry realizes he likes Hermione that way.
:clap:

:welcome: all new posters!

[FreckledApples]

The problem with some R/Hr shippers is that they refuse to even CONSIDER the possibility that Harry thinking of Hermione a lot, that Hermione is Harry's voice of conscience, that Harry automatically reaches for Hermione when under attack, that Hermione talks about Harry very often, could actually be a sign of something more than friendship. The clues are there, but if you insist on interpreting them as "mere friendship", you have no one to blame but yourself if you end up stunned if/when Harry realizes he likes Hermione that way.
well i am very offended by that! how would you know if we don't consider something? it seems to me we aren't the only ones who like to "not consider" stuff. the problem with some h/hr shippers is that they refuse to even CONSIDER the possibility that hermione statements about asking her to the ball, that she is simply furious when fluer kisses ron and when she smiles at him, and that she avoides rons eye when talking about krum, could accually be a sign that she likes him. the clues are there but if you insist on interpreting them as "just angry/annoyed" you have no one to blame but yourself if you end up stunned if/when Hermione ends up with Ron.

i apologize if i sound a bit mockery...i just want to get my point across and im not meaning to come off that way at all

[canteurervan]

This is very amusing, FreckleApples....But, considering how many times I witnessed the number of posts discussing the same topics over and over and over... I think you missed out quite a lot. Don't be offended since there's nothing to offend you at all. See, I always have the impression that the number of times the arguments of H/Hr's consider those of R/Hr's and reject them more than those of otherwise. I do agree with Dominique, but not based on the absoluteness; rather on the majority of the number of arguements raised by both ships.

Besides, I don't see why you should be offended by Dominique's statements at all.

***van.

[sone]

the problem with some h/hr shippers is that they refuse to even CONSIDER the possibility that hermione statements about asking her to the ball, that she is simply furious when fluer kisses ron and when she smiles at him, and that she avoides rons eye when talking about krum, could accually be a sign that she likes him.

I used to consider it a possibility, then I put Ron's treatment of Hermione prior to and at the Yule Ball along his general attitude in context and I drew the conclusion that no, she does not like him. I could be wrong but that is my opinion on the matter. Hermione, it would seem does not like Krum the way he likes her, but nevertheless she responds very well (ie. blushing) to his compliments, his honesty about how he felt about her. She likes being charmed and treated properly, not vexed, aggravated and frankly insulted which is what Ron does prior to and at the Yule Ball to Hermione. Similar to the way he chased off Cho Chang when she was wanting to speak with Harry. Anybody noticed how she went the opposite direction of where Ron was? In the Gryffindor common room, there is about a ten foot distance between them. Hermione is so furious her hair is coming undone and she is scarlet in the face. How romantic. All those clues are nice but it is why that I haven't been convinced of yet.

[Jo Friday]

I can't recall off the top of my head a moment in canon where Harry and Ron simply look at each other and know what the other is thinking;
And yet many such moments are explicitly presented in canon.

if such a moment is present, I humbly submit the times Harry and Hermione communicate non-verbally far outnumbers the times Harry and Ron do such a thing.
But why should we believe you, since you have already admitted that you do not even remember even one of the many Harry and Ron moments? I humbly submit that your estimate of the relative frequencies can hardly be trustworthy.

If you need help in finding some of the moments when Ron and Harry read each other's mind, I'll show you a few:


- Harry's eyes met Ron's. He knew that Ron was thinking exactly what he was OotP Ch. 33

- Harry and Ron grinned at each other. They knew Hermione would rather eat bubotuber pus than miss such an important lesson. GoF Ch. 15

- Ron seemed to know what was going on inside Harry's head. GoF Ch. 22

- He and Ron exchanged glances and then quickly looked away from each other. GoF Ch. 4

- Harry caught Ron's eye and knew that Ron was thinking exactly the same as he was OotP Ch. 15

- But he gave Ron a significant look and the two of them hung back OotP Ch. 18


I assure you the books are packed with such moments with Harry and Ron. I've never counted them, so I can't state that there are more of them than there are moments between Harry and Hermione (or Ron and Hermione for that matter), but I suspect they're quite comparable. We can count, if you wish.

That's not what I said and it's not certainly not what I meant, either. What I meant was that Hermione has become the most important person in his life, although Harry himself hasn't realized it. While there were five other people nearby, including some people Harry didn't know whether they would be capable of handling themselves, Harry simply grabs Hermione. To me, it's a very "save one thing from a burning building" moment. You are welcome to disagree.
I would point out that the only person in that group who is as close to Harry as Hermione is (or closer) -- Ron, in other words -- was not within Harry's reach. From what we know, Harry was standing very close to Neville, Hermione, and Ginny. I would agree that out of those three people he cares the most for Hermione. I don't see anything in canon to suggest that he cares for her romantically.

I don't agree that Hermione is the most important person in Harry's life. I think that both Ron and Sirius are definitely in the running.

According to canon, Rowling has always chosen Hermione to be the One that helps Harry though. Can't argue with that. And, Hermione will also continue to be the One, according to Rowling. This I remember from the interview of CoS's DVD version, Extras. Be sure to watch it to find out why, since she did mention why...
Canteurervan, at your request, I DID rewatch my DVD commentary and also read the online transcript (http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2003/0302-newsround-mzimba.htm) of it, and there is nothing remotely like that in there. Can you please quote what you are talking about, or stop referring to it?

As for Hermione *always* being the One that helps Harry, that is simply not true.

In OotP alone, Mad-Eye Moody, Tonks, etc. are the Ones who rescue Harry from the Dursleys. Dumbledore is the One who helps Harry in his trial, protects him from expulsion because of the DA, and saves him from Voldemort at the end. Neville is the One who helps Harry fight the Death Eaters in the Death Room. Remus is the One who holds Harry and keeps him from following Sirius through the veil. Sirius is the One who pushes Harry down out of the way of a curse. Grawp is the One who saves both Harry and Hermione from the centaurs. Ginny and Fred and George are the Ones who arrange for Harry to be able to talk to Sirius about his father. Luna is the One who helps Harry find some release about Sirius's death. Snape is the One who saves Harry and his friends by sending members of the Order to the Department of Mysteries. Dobby is the One who warns Harry that the DA has been betrayed to Umbridge.

Hermione is important to Harry, but she is only one of many people who help and support him.

On the other hand, Molly and Arthur do not insult each other.
I can't remember a clear case of Arthur insulting Molly, but she certainly does insult him:

- 'It sounds as though you've been trying to sew your skin back together," said Mrs. Weasley with a snort of mirthless laughter, 'but even you, Arthur, wouldn't be *that* stupid --' OotP Ch. 23

Arthur's and Molly's arguing style can be just as loud and heated as those between Ron and Hermione. Look at the one in PoA, Ch. 4, for example, where they yell at each other and Arthur pounds his fist on the table. They don't apologize for that one either, that we see.

connielane, I see you're also confused with the definitions and usage of the words "Push", "Actions", etc. Both you and Jo Friday are using words and presenting evidence that denote "intention" on Hermione's part and then you contradict those very statements. :lol:
But the words "push" and "action" do NOT denote "intention," as the definitions you so kindly provided us clearly show:

Push, definition 6:

: a provocation to action; a stimulus

That doesn't say "a deliberate provocation to action; a stimulus that ends up having the effect you intended."

Action, definition 1:

: the state or process of acting or doing

Again, not a word about acting by design, doing it on purpose, or having the effect one intends.


I'm sure this is getting tiresome to everyone. I'll try not to respond anymore to semantic quibbles, but just state canon facts as I see them:

Hermione, for whatever reason, acts in ways that help Harry's romance with Cho make progress. Maybe it is all a big whopping irony, and her actions have the exact opposite result of what she would wish. But the FACT is that Hermione's actions have the effect of helping Harry and Cho get together.

Two of her actions in particular -- introducing into Harry's mind the possibility of dating Cho and dragging Ron away so that Harry can be alone with Cho the first time he sees her after the kissing episode -- contribute directly to Harry and Cho going out on a date.


Jo :blush:

[Rowena Ravenclaw]

Neville knew that he`s bad fighter and that he can`t help Harry much.He even didn`t know Sirius.Yet he wanted to come with Harry.Why?
Well,obviously he wanted to prove Harry and especially himself,that he can be useful. He wanted to show,that he can overcome his fear and be brave.He didn`t care about Hermione at all.His own needs were much more important to him.

Or perhaps he was thinking that Harry might need his help, insignificant though it might be. And bear in mind, while Neville might not have been Harry's first choice, he'd shown marked improvement since joining the DA; there was at least one spell he mastered nearly as quickly as Hermione. While I'm not going to go so far as to say he felt confident in his abilities, I also don't think he felt he had anything to prove.

Although I've yet to find a Neville ship that offers enough convincing evidence, I think he gets overlooked in these debates far too often. The DoM demonstrates he's far more than the hapless bumbler from PS/SS. And at the very least, the surprisingly able assistance he gives Harry after Hermione is knocked out demonstrates that not only is Hermione not always the one destined to accompany Harry, she doesn't need to be. Invaluable though her contributions may be, Harry is capable of drawing strength and support from other avenues.

[playmaker9]

the biggest thing that makes me a h/hr shipper right now is that of every argument ever arisen either way, there has never been a r/hr point or argument that i haven't seen genuinely shot down w/ cannon evidence to back it up. there are tons of h/hr arguments that are shot down primarily by these two arguments:

1) that's b/c she's his friend!

er, aren't r/hr friends too? why doesn't she act the same way with him?

2) he thinks/treats her as a sister.

not only does harry never, ever mention thinking of hermione as a sister, but i find this argument very ironic. r/hr are classic siblings. ron jealous over krum, the same way he acted with michael corner, though he wasn't jealous of corner, his reaction was the same. he immediately disliked the guy and found reasons to say why he wasn't a good person. their bickering is also just like siblings, i really don't know why hardly anyone sees it like this, b/c they act just like every pair of siblings that i have ever met, in real life and in literature.

i'm sure all the herons will disagree of course, but that's just my viewpoint on the ships. show me some arguments that haven't been shot down by harmonians, and i'm sure mike or sone or phoenix or many others will be more than happy to show you plenty of h/hr arguments that have been responded with nothing more than 'that's b/c their friends' or 'he treats her like a sister, that's why'.

cheers!

[Mad Eye Mike]

But the words "push" and "action" do NOT denote "intention," as the definitions you so kindly provided us clearly show:

How you're using those words is why they denotes "intention" in your sentence. You're not using the definition of push which means "physical force", you're using the one which means "forceful persuasion", which enters into the realm of "Why" and for that, you need to find out someone's "intention".

That doesn't say "a deliberate provocation to action; a stimulus that ends up having the effect you intended."

But that is exactly how you've been using the word, as I showed in your posts that I quoted.

Again, not a word about acting by design, doing it on purpose, or having the effect one intends.

Again, by saying Hermione was "pushing" Harry onto Cho, with phrases like "majorly" and "what else can this be but a push?", that is how you're using the word.

I'm sure this is getting tiresome to everyone. I'll try not to respond anymore to semantic quibbles, but just state canon facts as I see them:

It's only tiring because you're using words incorrectly. That is why I provided definitions for you. And FYI, how you interpret something isn't always what is actually there. One persons fact is another persons baseless speculation.

Hermione, for whatever reason, acts in ways that help Harry's romance with Cho make progress. Maybe it is all a big whopping irony, and her actions have the exact opposite result of what she would wish. But the FACT is that Hermione's actions have the effect of helping Harry and Cho get together.

Wrong. Hermione does absolutely nothing which helps Harry and Cho get together. Canon shows that after Harry's date with Cho went badly, Hermione didn't try and give Harry advice (all she did was tell him what he did wrong, but not how to smooth things over) nor did she try and talk to Cho herself to clear things up. This is canon. This is a FACT. The only fact you've presented is that Hermione left Harry and Cho alone, which no one is arguing against. Everything else you've shown is pure speculation.

Two of her actions in particular -- introducing into Harry's mind the possibility of dating Cho and dragging Ron away so that Harry can be alone with Cho the first time he sees her after the kissing episode -- contribute directly to Harry and Cho going out on a date.

For the sake of argument:

Just because a persons action[s] has an effect, doesn't mean it was intentional. However, as you've been arguing that Hermione was deliberately "pushing" Harry onto Cho, that negates the "accidental" consequences of her acts from your theory.