How the Hat chooses the house -- shallower or deeper than we think?

[Badger]

It's just something that's been on my mind (and seeing as how the other threads are getting too long for me to get into the debate xD)-- the traits that the Sorting Hat describes as pertaining to the different houses seem to be awfully shallow and on-the-surface at times.

Courage? Malice? Smarts?

And you know, Hufflepuff is kind of the leftovers. But how can the hat really tell, other than the whole 'intent' thing with Harry Potter? It's really an amazing piece of magic that nobody gives much thought to. I think that sometimes, in the Sorting Hat's songs, the traits of the houses are overgeneralized, and it goes a whole lot deeper than most people think--like, not all Slytherins are horrible. Ambition doesn't make a person horrible, does it? Whereas courage can make a person seem to be stuck on himself, and brains can do the same thing-- the whole idea of Gryffindor being good and Slytherin being bad needs to be stomped out.

AND WE need to pay attention to the other houses, too! Cho Chang is the only real important Ravenclaw, and Cedric the only important Hufflepuff. Everybody really really important is from Slytherin or Gryffindor. .. it just annoys me. Any thoughts?

[Luna27]

I don't think it's that the really important people are in Slytherin and Gryfinddor. I just think those two houses have the most outwardly obvious character traits. Slytherins are ambitious and power hungry while Gryffindors are 'brave'. That makes for an interesting clash. Ravenclaws are 'intelligent'...but that's an internal trait. So is being a 'fair minded' Hufflepuff.

[Lady Greyjoy]

Your right Badger,

Being in Slytherin doesn't predicate a Voldemort. I think Sirus's great-uncle said it best in OOTP, Slytherin's can be brave, but not when it conflicts with self-preservation.

Which merges with my courage too.

I agree one can be brave and bad, it be nice for Rowling to include a good Slytherin and a bad Gryriffindor (maybe Malfoy could have been a Gryffindor ?). Luna is a good example of Rowling branching out, she's in Ravenclaw, but she's not a know-it-all like Hermione (God love her :)). Her wisdom comes from somewhere else.

[Badger]

Yeah--it's about that time I need to reread OotP again, because I'm already forgetting what happens. But it would make for a more interesting read if there was some kind of conflict within the houses. Real conflict, not just that Ron vs. Hermione 'I'm jealous' kind of battle, you know?

Maybe throw in a few more plot-twists. I'm glad that J.K. Rowling's finally getting into her own style of writing. I go back to read the first book now and realize how insanely horrible it is.

[Lady Greyjoy]

I wouldn't say horrible Badger,

But definatly more simplistic, that's to be expected though, Harry was eleven, things are more simplistic at age eleven than at age fifteen. The books are ageing with Harry, i agree though harry at 15 is much more intresting that harry at 11 :).

[koli]

eh i think the sorting hats principles are pretty basic, what your personality/ thoughts match up to best.

[swishandflick]

I waver between ideas on this subject, but I tend to think that the sorting hat chooses through a combination of what it thinks is truly best for the student and what house the student asks to be placed in.

Looking at Harry as an example, he wanted to be in Gryffindor though the sorting hat insisted that he would do well in Slytherin. In the end, it seemed to be Harry's choice that confirmed Harry's more Gryffindor nature.

Hermione is also similar, because while she seems suited towards Ravenclaw, perhaps because she valued friendship more than cleverness she was placed in Gryffindor. Or maybe she asked to be placed in Gryffindor because she thought that was the house with the most fame.

However, looking at Percy, he excudes many qualities of a Slytherin (his ambition). The hat put him in Gryffindor though, so maybe he asked to be placed in that house because he wanted to be more like his family.

[Alastor D]

I don't think it's as easy as just telling the hat where you want to be. But in Harry's case it was probably weighing between the two houses and the hat used his wish as additional information.

Which means there must be enough of Gryffindor in Percy too.

[DarkSen]

As u all know every houses presents a trait....gryffindor=brave...slytheryin*=cleverness...and so forth... but i reallly doubt how did the hat sort it...

[silver ink pot]

And you know, Hufflepuff is kind of the leftovers. But how can the hat really tell, other than the whole 'intent' thing with Harry Potter? It's really an amazing piece of magic that nobody gives much thought to. I think that sometimes, in the Sorting Hat's songs, the traits of the houses are overgeneralized, and it goes a whole lot deeper than most people think--like, not all Slytherins are horrible.
Great points, Badger! I think about this alot too, especially when the sorting hat tells Harry he "would have done well in Slytherin."

I mean, how does the hat know??? Is the hat able to see the future? Is Malfoy a Slytherin because he is already on the wrong side of destiny? What are the implications of Slytherin house "helping" Harry on his way?

I talk about this with people sometimes, and I try to imagine if Ron hadn't told Harry that most bad wizards come from Slytherin. Harry wouldn't have been able to ask for a different house. He would have been thrown in among the children of DeathEaters, and he would have had Snape as his "house father." How's that for an alternate universe? Snape would have "favored" Harry as a member of Slytherin and their relationship would be totally different. OR . . . Harry would have felt totally foreign in Slytherin, still been picked on by Malfoy and he might have been the first Slytherin that Snape didn't favor.

Luna hasn't said so yet, but I wonder if she had a choice, too. She obviously has alot in common with the Gryffindors. She is brave to a fault. She wears the "lion hat" and the "eagle hat." And she is never afraid to speak her mind.

You know, some people in Hufflepuff may actually be there by choice. I know that is hard to imagine, but some people know they are brilliant, but don't like to be put on display or held to a high standard. I have a brother just like this - he was shy and never wanted to be chosen for public speaking, so he would make a few bad grades so he wouldn't be the top of the class. Then, he went to college and became a straight-A engineering student (there's not much public speaking in engineering.)

Other people may be unsure of their own abilities, especially at the age of 11, so they don't want a competitive house. Being non-competitive has its advantages. The Hufflepuffs seem like a peaceful crowd, though able to work with eachother well. Harry certainly has those traits as well. Ravenclaw folks seem alot more prickly and argumentative. I think many of the Hufflepuffs in OotP were beginning to blossom, just like Neville.

Badger: I also wish there was more about all the houses. I want to know what the Hufflepuff dungeon looks like, and whether RavenClaw tower looks just like Gryffindor. I want to know how the Hufflepuffs co-exist with the Slytherins downstairs.

[Ephiel]

I don't think the Hufflepuffs have a "dungeon" so much as they have a sort of "hearth" by the kitchens. But that's really neither here nor there.

As far as the hat goes, I don't think it can tell the future so much as it just picks the heads of the children. I mean, I'm sure Percy is brave and just, he just has a different way of showing it. Plus, 17 or 18 year old Percy is a lot different than 11 year old Percy. He's very proud of himself, to say the least, and I think just embarassed by the rest of his family. Perhaps he's thinking that they'll only hold him back now. Remember, he works for the Ministry now and wants to be successful and appreciated, and his opinions might be swayed to fit their ideals so he can make it to the top. He knows how to play their game.

But who's to say that only the people who fit the archtype are allowed into the houses? We see in the first book that Neville wasn't the bravest chap and couldn't hold his own. I think he was placed in Gryffindor because he needed to be around other children who were brave and could help him stand up for himself, not because he possessed those qualities himself.

[rotsiepots]

And you know, Hufflepuff is kind of the leftovers.

I just though I'd interject to say that Hufflepuff is not comprised of the "left overs".

I take it you're making this inference from Helga Hufflepuff's egalitarian ideal that she'd "teach the lot and treat them just the same" made in OotP? Please note that she says "the lot" and not "the rest". Hufflepuff wanted to teach all magical students, and not those who possessed certain traits such as bravery, cunning or intelligence. Basically, Gryffindor, Slytherin and Ravenclaw held personal biases and valued certain students above others. Hufflepuff valued them all equally.

:)

[Magi]

Don't forget the Sorting Hat likens Hufflepuffs to being "loyal" and "unafraid of toil". It seems like a house for the down-to-earth types. Not just the left-overs.

The Sorting Hat seems to generally follow the wishes of the Hogwarts founders. But it uses a lot of discretion as well. The wants of the students, their potential, and values which a student prizes most.

I think a better way to describe the Sorting Hat's process, is that it doesn't match up students with particular qualities. Rather it matches students with the four founders themselves. If a student equally matches more than one founder, than the destination is up to the student's own choice.

[Lanc]

I think the Hat tries to place people in the house that fits them best, but also it takes their opinions into account. In the end, I think the Hat places them where it feels they will be most happy. I don't think it would ever place somebody where they really don't want to be, though. Anybody (like Harry) who doesn't want to be in a certain house won't be put in that house, even if it's otherwise perfect for them. I'm not certain it would let students choose their house, but if it feels that there are two or more houses that would suit them equally well I think the hat offers them the choice as to which house they want.

[Picko]

I just though I'd interject to say that Hufflepuff is not comprised of the "left overs".

I take it you're making this inference from Helga Hufflepuff's egalitarian ideal that she'd "teach the lot and treat them just the same" made in OotP? Please note that she says "the lot" and not "the rest". Hufflepuff wanted to teach all magical students, and not those who possessed certain traits such as bravery, cunning or intelligence. Basically, Gryffindor, Slytherin and Ravenclaw held personal biases and valued certain students above others. Hufflepuff valued them all equally.

:)

And if you take the brave, cunning and intelligent from the 'lot' you get the 'rest' ;) So we can take it that whilst Hufflepuff values all the same the house is for the 'rest' so to speak.

[rotsiepots]

And if you take the brave, cunning and intelligent from the 'lot' you get the 'rest' ;) So we can take it that whilst Hufflepuff values all the same the house is for the 'rest' so to speak.

So you're arguing that the defining features of the human psyche are either cunning, bravery or intelligence (they're mutually exclusive)? I daresay some will disagree with you. :huh:

[Picko]

So you're arguing that the defining features of the human psyche are either cunning, bravery or intelligence (they're mutually exclusive)? I daresay some will disagree with you. :huh:

All I'm saying is that if Hufflepuff is willing to teach everyone then she has the potential to teach everyone. Due to the other houses have specifics that they wish to teach students will be distributed into the other three houses. Those students who have nothing or little that the other houses want will be left in Hufflepuff. Those individuals would be the 'rest' if I'm not mistaken.

[Doggy]

Of course the world doesn't consist of four (or three, depending on if you think that the Hufflepuffs have their own feature or not) stereoptypical groups of people with either of the perosonalities "brave", "cunning", "smart" or "loyal". We're all more or less brave, cunning, smart and loyal (plus a dozen things more). However, a lot of people in this world have personality traits that they admire, and it looks like the founders of Hogwarts were some of them.

I've always thought that the part that most decides which house you end up in is your own choice. After all, even thought we've only heard of people in the books who want to be in Slytherin or Ravenclaw, there are probably a lot of people who want to be in other houses. Maybe there are whole families who've been placed in one special house, and where it's "upholding the family honour" to get in there too.

After all, we've only heard of what happened during two sortings as far as I can remember (Harry's and Hermione's) and both of them ended up in the house they asked for.

Personality traits probably have something to do with the Sorting hat's choice of course, but how many people are there who really don't have a special trait, and still would want to be placed in that house?

[silver ink pot]

The debate goes on and on! Isn't it amazing that something as seemingly straightforward as the Thinking Hat can be interpreted so many different ways?

I think it would help if we knew some adults who had been in Hufflepuff. As my husband keeps saying - JKR just isn't giving us enough information to figure out all the mysteries.

But there are alot of good points here about Hufflepuff teaching them "all the same." Really the spirit of Hufflepuff is more conducive to education than all the competiveness between the houses. I recently read a biography of JKR, and realized that she had trained as a teacher, even while waiting for Harry Potter to be published. She was described by her colleagues as a very creative teacher, as one might expect. She used to invent complicated games for the students to play. She didn't teach at an "upscale" British Boarding school, but at a progressive school open to all children. Someone described that as a paradox, since Boarding Schools are now more popular than ever in Great Britain due to the Harry Potter Books. But it reminds us that JKR's heart might be closer to the Hufflepuff philosophy.

Another interesting thing (off topic, though) is that JKR's mother, Ann, worked in a Laboratory for a living! That blew me away!


I don't think the Hufflepuffs have a "dungeon" so much as they have a sort of "hearth" by the kitchens. But that's really neither here nor there.



Ephiel: Thank you for correcting me. I realize that I do think of Hufflepuff as being 'in the dungeon," but that really is not correct. In Goblet of Fire, when the trio goes down to the kitchen, they enter the "same door" as Cedric Diggory and find:

"A broad stone corridor, brightly lit with torches, and decorated with cheerful paintings that were mainly of food." (GoF, pg 374 American)

In OotP, Harry watches the Marauder's Map as the members of the DA go back to their houses, with the Huffles going "to the basement corridor that also led to the kitchens." (OotP, pg 396, American).

I will picture that correctly from now on!

[Bjornar]

I believe we should look to one of the few Hufflepuffs defined in the series for characteristics. Did it seem Cedric was the leftovers? Did it seem he wasn't at all brave or intelligent or ambitious? He did enter the Tri-Wizard. He was certainly a good Seeker. I don't believe Cedric was just relegated to Hufflepuff. In truth the fact that he was always so amicable is a perfect example of a Hufflepuff. Idon't see them as leftovers, I see them as one of the best kinds of friends you can have.

[Weatherby]

I believe we should look to one of the few Hufflepuffs defined in the series for characteristics. Did it seem Cedric was the leftovers? Did it seem he wasn't at all brave or intelligent or ambitious? He did enter the Tri-Wizard. He was certainly a good Seeker. I don't believe Cedric was just relegated to Hufflepuff. In truth the fact that he was always so amicable is a perfect example of a Hufflepuff. Idon't see them as leftovers, I see them as one of the best kinds of friends you can have.
Me too.
There's something special to being well-rounded. You're a lot less boring if you have more than one defining characteristic. You'll have more things to fall back on as well.


I'm afraid some of the readers have taken the Slytherin propaganda to heart.
Just because Lucius Malfoy says Hufflepuff isn't any good doesn't mean that's true.


've always thought that the part that most decides which house you end up in is your own choice. After all, even thought we've only heard of people in the books who want to be in Slytherin or Ravenclaw, there are probably a lot of people who want to be in other houses. Maybe there are whole families who've been placed in one special house, and where it's "upholding the family honour" to get in there too.

I think you're very right.
There's nothing to be ashamed of for getting into a house that values hard work.
If everyone in the wizarding felt the way the Malfoy's did nothing would have been achieved in the wizarding world.

[Lanc]

I'm afraid I don't think it's just the Slytherin propaganda or the readers that gives Hufflepuff a bad deal. Hagrid says that everyone thinks Hufflepuffs are duffers, then (I think) begins to say that that's not really true when Harry interrupts him. It seems to be a general wizard prejudice (which has to a degree carried over to some of the readers) that Hufflepuff isn't really important. Personally, I don't believe that at all. Hufflepuff is a perfectly fine house, and one I'd be more than happy to be in (though I tend to think I'd have been a Ravenclaw). And remember, it was a Hufflepuff that was chosen as the best student out of all the 6th and 7th years who were over 17, not a brave Gryffindor, cunning Slytherin or intelligent Ravenclaw. Surely that says Hufflepuffs aren't "Duffers".

[mirandam]

I think that the hat picks the house that the person is most like. Each person has different qualities and some stick out more them some. Some may be intelligent, and brave, but if the bravery is stronger, then Gryffindor may be the house for them. I believe that a Hufflepuff may be more equal in their qualities. They may be brave, unafraid of toil, ambitious, and intelligent, but it is more of an equal balance and one does not overpower the other. Maybe this is what places them in Hufflepuff.

[OmarGama]

I think that the hat choses the houses by what we think, for ex. if we think about great and good things we will be on one of the good houses, but if we think in bad things like kill or make spells and destroy everybody we will be on Slythering, and this is what I think about this.

[Jaredd]

Wouldn't it be funny if the hat was doing nothing but acting like a dungeon-master and rolling a 4-sided die?

[Adalbert Waffling]

Hmmm, just wondering...does anybody think that a wizard can make something else with a brain that can read minds? The hat said that Godric put some brains in him. That can't be the only time it could happen, right? Perhaps you need to be very powerful, but I think that DD could do it. Maybe like a discreet spy on Voldemort.

[Runnels]

Along these lines....

Are we SURE that Tom Riddle was in Slytherin? I know he states (and DD confirms) that he is the last decendent of Slytherin, but he is also a half-blood. Does anyone ever actually state that he was in Slytherin House...? Aren't all Slytherins pure bloods? Is it possible that Tom Riddle was in Ravenclaw or even Gryffindor? After all, Peter Pettigrew was in Gryffindor and we all know how he turned out...

It is just bugging me...

[Marix]

In the movie he wos wering slytherin robes.But i just finish reading second book and it realy dosn't say theth he was in slytherin.

P.S.sory about my english im still learning

[sirius_gerl]

your english fine...fine..,:D

he was in slytherin, i do believe that he mentioned it some other book...also, other characters mentioned he was in slytherin.ie: Harry, Dumbledor, Hagrid...
i think you can pretty much turn out any way you want, so even if you're in Griffendor, you can still be evil...i know Voldamort is a half-blood, but why he was put in Slytherin, was probably because the hat senced something evil in him...

[Lanc]

The Hat does not (in my opinion) put evil people into Slytherin. It puts people into Slytherin mostly because they are ambitious, with other traits such as cunning and a belief that the ends justify the means also influencing it. The attributes of Slytherins might make them more inclined to become evil in the future, but it does not make them evil. Also, there will be people who become evil from the other houses too. I think we can see at least one Slytherin adult who, while not a nice guy, was not exactly evil in Bartemius Crouch Sr, while I also believe we can see one Ravenclaw who was corrupted in Professor Quirrell, and obviously there's the Gryffindor who went bad in Wormtail, though as yet there isn't an evil person who I would identify as a former Hufflepuff.

The Hat doesn't select Gryffindors for "goodness" either, but mostly for courage, while it chooses Ravenclaws mostly for intelligence and Hufflepuffs for loyalty/willingness to work hard, though as I said earlier, I don't think it would place somebody into a house that they don't want to be in.

[Bee]

I'm not sure about the old Sorting Hat. On one side, I think it looks deeper... take Hermione, if the Sorting Hat just took the most obvious character traits, she'd obviously be in Ravenclaw. On the other side, I think Dumbledore is more honest and loayl than he is daring and brave, which I think puts him in Hufflepuff rather than Gryffindor.

But I think the Sorting doesn't actually categorize TOO clearly... don't you think that Slytherin should have the least people and Hufflepuff the most? It always seemed that way to me. I'm going on primary personality traits here:
Ravenclaw: smart
Gryffindor: daring/brave
Slytherin: ambitious
Hufflepuff: fair/loyal

Almost everyone has a mix of those personality traits. People could be put almost anywhere, when you think about it. I think the Sorting is just to divvy up kids to each House evenly and show them that they do have something to offer... everyone can be proud to be smart, ambitious, brave and loyal.

[Magi]

Almost everyone has a mix of those personality traits. People could be put almost anywhere, when you think about it. I think the Sorting is just to divvy up kids to each House evenly and show them that they do have something to offer... everyone can be proud to be smart, ambitious, brave and loyal.Hmmm, I don't think everyone, or even most, people have all four traits.

I've happened across lot of people who are backstabbing, cowardly, stupid, or unambitious. :) It's hard to find anyone who are ambitious, brave, intelligent, and loyal, all at once.

[Ephiel]

Wouldn't it be funny if the hat was doing nothing but acting like a dungeon-master and rolling a 4-sided die?

XD I've definately got to draw that now. Props to you, Jaredd.

But I think a lot of you might like to read this: [link not available]

It's only a fanwork, yes, but I think it is very well written and very in character for Hufflepuff, as well as the other founders. There's even a spot for the Sorting Hat. It's a fanfic written much like the Spoon River Anthology.

EDIT: ...I'm sorry, but it looks like it's not up at the new space. I'll try to find it for you all as soon as I can.

[FirefightingMuggle]

In one of the Sorting Hat songs, didn't the hat specifically say that "There's nothing hidden in your head that the sorting hat can't see."
This leads me to believe that the Hat has a way of seeing beyond what lies at the surface. By simple appearance alone, Hermione should be a Ravenclaw, Neville a Hufflepuff, Percy a Slytherin....but there is obviously something down in under all the other stuff that leads the hat to put the kids in one house over another.
While Harry asked specifically not to be placed in Slytherin, I have a hard time thinking that every kid sits up on that stool and says something like "Please Ravenclaw" or "Not Hufflepuff" or something of the like.... I have a hard time thinking of Neville sitting on that stool asking the hat to not put him in Hufflepuff.
Everyone has traits that aren't clearly visible unless the person is in an extreme situation. I've seen the bravest person quake in fear at a fully involved fire. I've seen the weakest take charge at a vehicle accident with critical patients. I've seen the person most bent on self preservation actually stop and do something for someone else. Everyone has hidden qualities. I think the hat looks at what is hidden and places more emphasis on those things than on what is clear on the surface.
In some cases, you'd run into a pretty one dimensional character. Someone who is one way all the time, no matter what, and has nothing more to give. Those people are the ones who always demonstrate the "characteristics" given to their house, and never struggle to fit in. Draco, in my opinion, is a great example of this kind of character. He so readily gives off that he is everything Slytherin, and the hat picked up on it, and put him there, that you would almost wonder that there is nothing more to him. Neville is the opposite, as he struggles to fit into the brave mold of Griffindor.

[roz]

Do we know what house wormtail was in?

I think that might be some interesting additional info for this discussion. I always wonder because I don't see him as having been a Slytherin and if not doesn't it contradict the statement about all evil wizards having been Slytherins?

Roz.

[FirefightingMuggle]

I think that JKR said in an interview that all four Marauders were in Gryffindor.

I always took the comment about all the bad witches and wizards coming from Slytherin as being a bit of an exaggeration. I'm sure that somewhere a long the lines, more than just Slytherins were corrupted by evil.

[Frankie Inkblot]

To me, the Hat has always seemed to do the right thing, but sometimes I question its judgement (example: Neville in Gryffindor).

Maybe the Hat is a Seer, and can see what sort of person you may turn out to be. I've always wondered if the Sorting Hat has something to do with Trelawney, even if the Hat does reside for the majority of the year in Dumbledore's office.

Sometimes I don't see the real difference between some Hufflepuffs and Gryffindors. Isn't Ernie MacMillan a Hufflepuff? And isn't he pretty brave? He questions Harry's motives to the point of excluding himself from the rest of the DA. And look at Neville. I know in some situations he has stood up to people and helped Harry out, but apart from that, he seems to be scared of everything. What's he doing in Gryffindor?

The Hat, I hope, must have some sort of special way to see into people's minds other than their outward personality.

[Magi]

Neville was brave enough in OotP.

[Lanc]

I always took the comment about all the bad witches and wizards coming from Slytherin as being a bit of an exaggeration. I'm sure that somewhere a long the lines, more than just Slytherins were corrupted by evil.

As I said earlier, I think we've already seen two (at least) non-Slytherins who were corrupted - the Gryffindor Peter Pettigrew and the Ravenclaw Professor Quirrell. At least, that's where I think they were placed. I don't think we've seen an evil Hufflepuff yet though.

[mirandam]

I think the hat made the choice for the house that you are put in, but it will also depend on the choices that the person makes during their life that will really determine what it to become of them. JKR seems to really make this a strong issue throughout the book about ones choices. I am not sure what trait that places Pettigrew into Gryffindor in the first place, but he did not continue to choose correctly in his life. With the Slytherins, I think that the most evil come from there because they will obtain what they want in life no matter how they have to get it. No, I don't believe that we have seen anything about a Hufflepuff, that may be to come.

[Lupin_Lady]

As I said earlier, I think we've already seen two (at least) non-Slytherins who were corrupted - the Gryffindor Peter Pettigrew and the Ravenclaw Professor Quirrell. At least, that's where I think they were placed. I don't think we've seen an evil Hufflepuff yet though.

But with teachers, are they always put in to taught in the house that they were in at school?

We know this is the case for Mc Gonnagall and Snape, but is it something that is scritcly written in the rules?
Perhaps Quirrell wasn't a Ravenclaw while attending Hogwarts as a student.

[Lanc]

But with teachers, are they always put in to taught in the house that they were in at school?

We know this is the case for Mc Gonnagall and Snape, but is it something that is scritcly written in the rules?
Perhaps Quirrell wasn't a Ravenclaw while attending Hogwarts as a student.

I don't understand what you mean. All the teachers teach all of the houses, no matter what house they were in. There are only six teachers (seven counting Hagrid) that we know their houses, at least assuming Hermione's information on Dumbledore is accurate and that the heads of house were in that house. This means that Dumbledore, McGonagall, Hagrid and Lupin were in Gryffindor, Snape was in Slytherin, Sprout in Hufflepuff and Flitwick in Ravenclaw. The other teachers we don't know about, so we can only make our own guesses as to what house they were in based upon what we know of them. It is this that makes me place Quirrell as a Ravenclaw - Quirrell was once good (and a decent teacher), then he went off to get practical experience and was corrupted by Voldemort before he returned to teaching. Quirrell's history just makes him seem like a Ravenclaw to me.

[moodring_56]

I agree with FirefightingMuggle: the Sorting Hat sees the qualities in people that, maybe, no one else can. Up until 5th year, I was still trying to figure out why the Sorting Hat had put Neville in Gryffindor, but now we all know that he is quite brave when he needs to be. Also, we might wonder why Peter was put in Gryffindor, but there might be a bravery in him that has not yet been seen? It may be a quality in him that only the Sorting Hat has seen.

[Hatake Kakashi]

Yes, I've always wondered about this as well.

It really annoys me that the students are seperated into Houses, it's a bit like cliques in high school. I think that there's a little of everything in everybody: ambition, courage, intelligence, and the drive to work hard. So to just come out and say something along the lines of, "People have only one part to themselves and that's that." How would the Hat know? Is intelligence more obvious in one's mind than courage? Does ambition tower over the hard worker in everybody? I thinketh not!

And why does everyone think that all Gryffindors are good, while all Slytherins are bad? For example, I'm quite sure Professor Quirrell was not in Slytherin, but he turned out to be quite the superhero, didn't he? And as for Peter Pettigrew, it's not too obvious where he was placed, but if it turned out to be Gryffindor, he came out worse than Severus Snape. Then there's Percy Weasley. Seems he has more ambition, than courage, doesn't he? Why, then, was he placed in Gryffindor rather than Slytherin? Maybe the Sorting Hat took the fact that he was far more ambitious than his parents could ever permit and made him out to be a brave soul.

So that is my two cents.

[Kirsten]

But who's to say that only the people who fit the archtype are allowed into the houses? We see in the first book that Neville wasn't the bravest chap and couldn't hold his own. I think he was placed in Gryffindor because he needed to be around other children who were brave and could help him stand up for himself, not because he possessed those qualities himself.
A few people have commented that Neville isn't brave, and I have to disagree. I think Neville is very brave. I don't think there's any bravery in doing something you're not scared of. One of my colleagues is terrified of public speaking, but it's not something I'm scared of at all. She tells me I'm very brave to do it, but actually, she's the brave one to do it, because she's the one who's scared of it. I don't need to be brave to do it, because it doesn't frighten me. For me, bravery is about overcoming fear and doing the thing you're scared of. That makes Neville one of the bravest students there - he's terrified of everything but does his best anyway. He stands up to Harry at the end of Philosopher's Stone, even though he's scared to, and he goes into the Department of Mysteries in OotP, although he's terrifed there too. That's real bravery.

The Sorting Hat's first song says

...You might belong in Gryffindor ,
Where dwell the brave at heart,
Their daring, nerve and chivalry
Set Gryffindors apart;
You might belong in Hufflepuff,
Where they are just and loyal,
Those patient Hufflepuffs are true
And unafraid of toil;
Or yet in wise old Ravenclaw,
If you've a ready mind,
Where those of wit and learning,
Will always find their kind;
Or perhaps in Slytherin
You'll make your real friends,
Those cunning folk use any means
To achieve their ends..."

I think that says there's more to Hufflepuff than just being the leftovers. In fact, the Hat says a bit about all the Houses.

I've been wondering if I should start a separate thread about what I'm going to say next. Has anyone noticed that in Philosopher's Stone, JKR makes a point of telling us that the Hat takes a while to sort some people?

It takes the Hat almost a minute to pick a house for Seamus Finnigan, but it sorts Hermione immediately. "The hat took a long time to decide with Neville...Malfoy swaggered forward when his name was called and got his wish at once: the hat had barely touched his head when it screamed 'SLYTHERIN!'" We know that hat takes a while to sort Harry, saying "Are you sure? You could be great, you know, it's all here in your head, and Slytherin will help you on the way to greatness, no doubt about that - no? Well, if you're sure - better be GRYFFINDOR!" and Ron is sorted straight away.

So Hermione, Malfoy and Ron were easy choices. Seamus, Neville and Harry were difficult. I doubt that Seamus will prove to be much more important in the story, but we know Neville and Harry are vital to the plot. The prophecy could have applied to Neville. That the hat took so long to sort Neville is a sign that there's much more to him than meets the eye. He has hidden depths. I'd love to know what the conversation between the hat and Neville was. Did it take the hat a while to find the bravery that merited Gryffindor, or did the hat think another House would be appropriate?

The hat doesn't actually suggest Slytherin to Harry. It looks into Harry and notes that he has "Plenty of courage, I see. Not a bad mind, either. There's talent, oh my goodness, yes - and a nice thirst to prove yourself, now that's interesting..." That sounds like Harry could have gone into any of the houses. Harry sits on the stool thinking not Slytherin, not Slytherin, and the hat tells him Slytherin could help him to be great, but Harry brings up Slytherin first.

[Northcott]

Don't forget the Sorting Hat likens Hufflepuffs to being "loyal" and "unafraid of toil". It seems like a house for the down-to-earth types. Not just the left-overs.

An excellent point! If we're defining houses by a single trait, "dedication" might be the best one for the Hufflepuffs... or perhaps dilligence. They just don't stop, they don't give up. That's a very impressive trait to have, in my opinion.

It's not just Cedric Diggory that gives testimony to such an admirable trait, however; look at the other Hufflepuffs in the books. How many students turn their backs on Harry when they think he's a loon or glory hound in CoS or OotP? Justin Finch-Fletchly (sp?) wasn't among them: he had thought Harry to be Slytherin's heir in CoS, but once he was proven wrong, and once he chose to give his loyalty to Harry, then that character never wavered in the slightest. He went so far as to proclaim loudly and to all that he backed Harry 100%, even when Harry had become unpopular.

Certainly Ron and Harry would never have qualified for Hufflepuff, nor would Fred and George. They're brave to a fault, that lot, but they're a far cry from hard-working and constant. :) The Weasleys more than Harry, perhaps, but Harry's certainly been known to sluff off work when there were more entertaining things to do.

[jasper]

It's one of those magical objects with brains, isn't it? In some ways, it seems like a portrait, but it has the 4 heads of houses mixed in instead of portraying a single person. But like a portrait, it can hear what's going on, can form its own opinions and can talk.

It might be a little more like the marauder's map in that it has 4 creators, and can read a wizard's brain. I think the map can read thoughts a little bit because it shows what the wizard needs to see at the moment and points out useful things the wizard needs to know. It could recognize Snape to insult him. But instead of having the 4 personalities of its creators, like the map, the hat has kind of a blended personality from its creators.

Though the hat is able to form it's own opinions and could have a personal agenda in some of the things it does or says, I don't think it is an out of control magical object. It has to act on orders from the headmaster. I think if Dumbledore told it to find out where the students want to be placed, so that it really comes down to student choice, then that is what it will do. (Past headmasters might have had different views and could have told the hat to sort strictly on traditional personality qualitles.) When the hat sings the traditional discription of the houses, it is putting the students in the mindframe of thinking about the house they'd choose. And muggleborn kids would need at least that brief introduction to have a clue.

And, just to ramble on a bit more, how healthy could it really be if all the kids with similar traits were lumped together? All the ambitious kids trying to out rank each other-- all the brave kids taking risks together-- all the smart kids trying to outsmart each other. . . .Hufflepuff might be the sanest house to be in.

[Northcott]

.Hufflepuff might be the sanest house to be in.

(golf clap) Roofles, dear sir! Roofles!

[jasper]

(golf clap) Roofles, dear sir! Roofles!

:huh: ??

And the hat itself is physically deeper than we thought since that sword fit in it. . . . that hasn't been adequately explained, has it?

[onyxmoon]

nope, it hasn't. probably wont be explained, it is magic after all :)

[Lanc]

So Hermione, Malfoy and Ron were easy choices. Seamus, Neville and Harry were difficult. I doubt that Seamus will prove to be much more important in the story, but we know Neville and Harry are vital to the plot. The prophecy could have applied to Neville. That the hat took so long to sort Neville is a sign that there's much more to him than meets the eye. He has hidden depths. I'd love to know what the conversation between the hat and Neville was. Did it take the hat a while to find the bravery that merited Gryffindor, or did the hat think another House would be appropriate?

I disagree at least slightly about Hermione. It doesn't actually mention a time-frame for her sorting, though it does suggest it was quite quick. However, from OotP we know that the Hat "seriously considered" her for Ravenclaw. Could the Hat really seriously consider Ravenclaw in such a short time? And even if it could, it gave serious consideration to placing her in another house, therefore I don't think it could have been that easy a choice for the Hat. Easier perhaps than Harry, but not all that much.

[Northcott]

:huh: ??

And the hat itself is physically deeper than we thought since that sword fit in it. . . . that hasn't been adequately explained, has it?

Roofles = ROFL. :) I found the imagery very amusing: the three houses going stark-raving buggo because of similar but incompatible personalities, with the poor Hufflepuffs standing around and looking nervous as the whisper passes through the crowd; "What's wrong with them? The whole lot are nutters!"


About the sword and the hat: I don't think it's a matter of physical dimension in that case. I think the hat just acted as a gate of sorts. Makes me wonder what other mysteries it might be keeping to itself.

[onyxmoon]

a trendy hat and a portable dvd player at the same time ;)

[Kirsten]

I disagree at least slightly about Hermione. It doesn't actually mention a time-frame for her sorting, though it does suggest it was quite quick. However, from OotP we know that the Hat "seriously considered" her for Ravenclaw. Could the Hat really seriously consider Ravenclaw in such a short time? And even if it could, it gave serious consideration to placing her in another house, therefore I don't think it could have been that easy a choice for the Hat. Easier perhaps than Harry, but not all that much.

"Hermione almost ran to the stool and jammed the hat eagerly on her head.

'GRYFFINDOR!' shouted the hat."

JKR has just told us that sometimes the hat takes longer to decide, and that Seamus Finnigan took amost whole minute. He was directly before Hermione, and Neville is directly after her - and it takes a long time to sort him too. It might not be tacit, but it's certainly implicit that Hermione is sorted quickly. The hat might have just said "Maybe Ravenclaw, no, GRYFFINDOR!" and that was it!

[onyxmoon]

so what you mean is that the sorting hat is very lazy or has a mind of a 500yr old and can't sort his own thoughts? :)

[Jade Evans]

I think the hat looks at both the person's qualities and his desire. We know that Hermione, Harry, Malfoy, and Ron had all expressed at some point their house preferences, and in the end, after the hat weighs their desire against their qualities, it makes the decision fairly quickly. In Harry's case, I don't think the hat took that long as most people think, since Harry's the only one for which we were told about the Hat's thinking process, it's really not very long.

As for other students like Neville, it takes a while since the hat needs time to sort out which qualities out weigh others. In other words, the decision lies entirely with the hat and it has to do all the work.

[Lanc]

"Hermione almost ran to the stool and jammed the hat eagerly on her head.

'GRYFFINDOR!' shouted the hat."

JKR has just told us that sometimes the hat takes longer to decide, and that Seamus Finnigan took amost whole minute. He was directly before Hermione, and Neville is directly after her - and it takes a long time to sort him too. It might not be tacit, but it's certainly implicit that Hermione is sorted quickly. The hat might have just said "Maybe Ravenclaw, no, GRYFFINDOR!" and that was it!

I wouldn't have said that's serious consideration though, nor would I have thought Hermione would. I'd have expected her to say the Hat briefly considered Ravenclaw if it was really like that. I'm not sure quite how to reconcile the differences, but to me if it was so quick and easy for the hat to decide on Gryffindor I can't see how Hermione got the impression it seriously considered putting her in Ravenclaw. And actually Seamus wouldn't have been directly before Hermione. There are at least two students who would be between him and Hermione - Anthony Goldstein (Ravenclaw) and Gregory Goyle (Slytherin), neither of whom Harry noticed being sorted. Could this suggest that Harry wasn't particularly aware of how much time passed? If so, that would possibly explain the discrepancy.

[barmy codger]

The first impression of the hat is that it can read the student's character and choose accordingly. Then we have Hermione and Harry as the two examples of the hat being interactive, sort of. But lately I've been wondering whether the hat was really responding to their strength of magic -that is, they were strong enough to make the hat choose what they wanted instead of what it thought best. Something like how the Goblet of Fire was fooled into choosing Harry. So with the hat it might be another indication of how Harry sometimes does magic without being aware of it.

[Polychrome]

Personally, I think the Hat merely makes suggestions to a person who may have doubts on what house they want to be in. It merely dectects where they want to go other than that. Nothing more. Notice how everybody has gotten into their first choice. And Hermione also mentioned that the Hat was thinking of putting her in Ravenclaw.

It seems to me that Harry's case between Slytherin and Gryffindor was the rule, not the exception.

[Katarzyna]

it be nice for Rowling to include a good Slytherin and a bad Gryriffindor
Ah, but she already has--the good Slytherin Snape and the bad Gryffindor Pettigrew.

And by the way, how on earth did Pettigrew get into Gryffindor?

[Northcott]

Personally, I think the Hat merely makes suggestions to a person who may have doubts on what house they want to be in. It merely dectects where they want to go other than that. Nothing more. Notice how everybody has gotten into their first choice. And Hermione also mentioned that the Hat was thinking of putting her in Ravenclaw.

It seems to me that Harry's case between Slytherin and Gryffindor was the rule, not the exception.

That certainly fits with Dumbledore's words, when he informed Harry that it's not our potential that decides our fate, but our decisions. It also jives with Mr. Weasly's warning of not trusting magic items that think for themselves -- the hat may be quasi-sentient, but if it echoes the child's own inclinations then it's acting in servitude, rather than as an arbitrary and final authority.

[Kirsten]

Which pretty much covers how Peter got into Gryffindor. He may have had indications of courage during the Sorting, his friends had already got into Gryffindor (put their names in alphabetical order, and Black and Lupin were already there, although James would have been sorted last of the four), so he wants to be there, and the hat concurs. Indications of bravery at Sorting are no guarantee of decent behaviour later. It is our choiced that define us...

[mevam]

In OOTP at a DA meeting I found the following quote:

'How come you're not in Ravenclaw?' he demanded, staring at Hermione with something close to wonder. 'With brains like yours?'

'Well, the Sorting Hat did seriously consider putting me in Ravenclaw during my Sorting', said Hermione brightly, 'but it decided on Gryffindor in the end. So, does that mean we're using the Galleons?'

And the quote that was mentioned for PS/SS was:
"... I hope I'm in Gryffindor, it sounds by far the best; I hear Dumbledore himself was in it, but I suppose Ravenclaw wouldn't be too bad... "

And there was a quote in COS, I think, where Dumbledore says something like:
"It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."




Now, the reason why I mention all this is that it is fairly obvious that Hermione would have made an excellent Ravenclaw. She's smart, no doubt, and has a wit about her that certainly appealed to Terry Boot. I was thinking about why JK Rowling put that observation by Terry Boot in, and I connected it to the other quotes to show that perhaps the Sorting Hat doesn't decide where to put the students if they already know where they want to be sorted into. In the first book, Harry had heard about Slytherin's pattern of producing dark wizards, and perhaps the fact that he was whispering "Not Slytherin, Not Slytherin" under his breath when the sorting hat came on was what decided the matter. If Harry had not been sure what the houses were like, it is quite possible that he would have had just as likely been put into Slytherin as Gryffindor. That's why I don't think that the Sorting Hat really analyzes anything, because it seems that almost all of the students who were sorted had it happen by their own decisions. Colin Creevey, who was obviously obsessed (and still is) with Harry in COS was put into Gryffindor perhaps only because he wanted to be where Harry was. It kinds of makes you wonder what the criteria for sorting is, if any, besides the student's own wishes. Ron went into Gryffindor because he didn't want to break tradition, but he hasn't proven to be amazingly brave, you could even argue that Cedric showed more bravery in the Tournament tasks then Ron does. Also, when the sorting hat went on Draco's head, it immediately read his wish and threw him in Slytherin.

Dumbledore's quote about our choices, not our abilities, deciding what we become makes the idea that the Sorting Hat decides anything based on the qualities of the students unlikely. It seems that in the examples I discussed, the mindset of the student being sorted had a lot to do with where they were put into. Harry, Ron, and as discussed earlier, Hermione, as well as Malfoy AND Colin seemed to have all decided where they wanted to go before they were sorted. And they all went into their corresponding choices. Hermione, who would certainly have done well as a Ravenclaw, seems to have developed a liking for Gryffindor, because, as the first quote shows, she thought it to be the best house. Even Terry Boot was surprised by her sorting, but Hermione seemed to have had it decided herself all along. It seems more likely that the Sorting Hat symbolizes uncertainty, and it only makes the final decision for students caught in a deadlock.

[Firebolt_2007]

I'd say the sorting hat is more deep than shallow as it placed Neville in Gryffindor instead of Hufflepuff. I mean he may be kind of a duffer on the surface but somehow the sorting hat knew there was more to him than that. Look how assertive he became in OotP!

[Hagrid442]

Unfortunately, I didn't know about this thread before I started a new thread. In that thread, I wrote this:

===================

This thought occured to me. What if the Sorting Hat has less of a role in choosing houses for its students than we might think? I believe that the students actually choose the house more than the hat. Sure, the hat may prod them a bit and does trumpet the house to the whole school, but I think ultimately it comes down to the student.

Let's look at Draco for a start. He's so sure that he'll be Slytherin at Madame Malkin's. Lo and behold, the hat barely touches him, and he's declared a Slytherin.

Ron is much the same. Though he has some doubts, remember that he does want to follow in his family's footsteps. They've all been Gryffindors. Thus, he chose Gryffindor, and the hat obliged. He was a short time choosing.

Then we have Hermione. She didn't take too long in choosing either. In PS/SS, the text is such:

Hermione almost ran to the stool and jammed the hat eagerly on her head.
"GRYFFINDOR!" shouted the hat. Ron groaned.

Maybe there were a couple seconds involved here, and that allowed the hat to entertain the thought of Ravenclaw. But on the train, Hermione herself seemed to like Gryffindor the most. Again, it was her choice, and the hat obliged.

Seamus Finnigan is an interesting case. Seeing as he's not been developed as a character all that much, why did it take the hat almost a minute for him? And why Gryffindor? He's rather un-Gryffindor-like.

Next, there's Neville. I've noticed in searching, that there is a thread on his sorting, and many ideas were brought up in that thread. I read through it all, and of course we all know about Neville's actions and his sad history. I do think, going by his characteristics, he's more a Hufflepuff than a Gryffindor. I'll bet the hat was talking up a storm, trying to discern Neville's choice. Neville was not a confident boy at that time, so I'm sure he didn't really have a clue. But, maybe, just maybe he chose Gryffindor to honor his parents. They were Gryffindors, IIRC.

Lastly, we have Harry. We know the most about his sorting for obvious reasons. The sticking point is always that he chose not to go to Slytherin. It's a big theme over and over that Harry was really geared for House Slytherin. Like in COS when he puts the hat on while in Dumbledore's office and it tells him that he would have done well in Slytherin. And Dumbledore's talk with Harry at the end where it's our choices that make a difference, more than our abilities.

It's this theme that is the hinge upon which my thesis rests. Harry didn't exactly choose Gryffindor, but he did choose NOT Slytherin. The hat probably catches that a student has the traits of certain houses. It's quite possible that a student can go into two, maybe three houses. Even Draco, with his talent, could reasonably be a Ravenclaw. Hermione is a no-brainer that Ravenclaw would have been a good fit. However, they chose their fate.

======================

After reading this thread, I am still convinced that the student's free will and choice is crucial to the sorting. The hat acts more as a guide, than the final judge.

[~Tonks~]

Unfortunately, I didn't know about this thread before I started a new thread. In that thread, I wrote this:


...

After reading this thread, I am still convinced that the student's free will and choice is crucial to the sorting. The hat acts more as a guide, than the final judge.

I totally agree with everything you said. Like Dumbledore told Harry, it is our choices that define who we are. The behavior and predisposition of the student is dependent of the choices they've made and their attitudes so naturally they would go into whatever house corresponds most strongly with the most prevalent characteristics within them. A good example of a Hufflepuff is Cedric. He seemed to me to just be this sort of rounded out student who just did his best and worked his hardest and wasn't too quick to pass judgement on anyone...

By acting or thinking in a certain manner they're effectively chosing what house to go into themselves, the hat just brings it to the surface...

[Hagrid442]

Again, we are of like mind. :)

We should quit sharing this brain. :P

[Northcott]

Ron went into Gryffindor because he didn't want to break tradition, but he hasn't proven to be amazingly brave, you could even argue that Cedric showed more bravery in the Tournament tasks then Ron does.


Just a quibbling point: I'd say that might hold true of Percy, but certainly not of Ron. He's displayed loyalty and courage as his two strongest assets time and again in the books, never flinching in the face of self-sacrifice. He doesn't talk a big game, and he certainly feels (and expresses) fear, but every time it comes down to the crunch he throws himself into the fray despite the consequences.

[Dark Tail]

About Neville, I once read a fanfiction on fanfiction.net, who said that Neville, one day, wondered why he was put in Gryffindor. He, at the end, finally understand that, every time he faced his parents' state, his grandmother, his friends (or the department of mysteries), etc, he never breaked, he had just gone on, resisting, fighting. This is a type of bravery, confronting the bad things life put in front of you, no matter how much bad they are. And Neville just did so, all his life, and the Sorting hat just had seen this, and, wanting to help Neville realize his bravery, he put him in Gryffindor.