The Time Turner in future books

[Morgoth]

Ok, what does everyone think about the use of time turner's in future novels? and do you think that someone will meet their past/future self causing them to attack one another.

I didn't really like the Time Turner. I thought it was rather tacky. I am of the generation where time travel in stories is done all too much, although the effect in Harry Potter was better than most stories.

From the point of view of the wizard or witch, I guess if you saw your future self, you'd think there was some seriously dark mojo going on, because you're not aware that you may use a time turner at any point in your life, considering you're not prone to using them at all.

Opinions?

[Anne]

I can't say I think the Time Turner will show up again. Of course, I wouldn't be entirely surprised if it did.

Now, about seeing your future self...well, that would definitely freak me out, lol. I don't know how I'd react. I don't know that I'd try to kill it though... But it certainly can't be a very good situation.

[Valerie]

I don't really expect it to show up again, but I can see that it might.

Hmm, seeing my "other" self definitely can't be good, I don't know how I would react, I suppose I could know that while using a time-turner it is possible, or maybe I'd dismiss it as a look alike, I don't think I would try to kill it though, after all I wouldn't try to kill anyone..lol So what's the difference? But can't say I know how'd I'd react, seeing as how I've never been in that situation and probably never will.:smile:

[Kneazle]

No, I think the Time Turner's had it's story and it's over with now.

I'd freak out if I met myself. I definitely wouldn't kill the future me. It probably wouldn't be the best thing. I don't know.

[Manyasha]

I agree with Kneazle.:yup: Time-turner won't appear in future books - it would be a repetition which won't make the books more interesting.
Though it would be very curious to meet myself in future.:)

[LewsTherin]

Well, JKR said the Time-Turner will not make a return, but you never know what goes on in a writer's mind. She may very well decide, on a whim, to re-introduce it. It could make for some thrilling scences still.

I'd love to meet Future self, I mean, the guy can't be that bad can he? Besides, he'd probably have some good advice and give me some tips and bring me something from the future. It would be cool.

[Alicia_Potter]

Yeah, but what if you weren't expecting him and this guy just shows up and says, "Hey! I'm you in the future!" I would probably just say heay right, you need some pills. I don't think that I would like to just happen to meet my future self. If it was pre-arranged it wouldn't be too bad, though.

I also doubt that it will make a return. I mean, I think that unless Voldemort gets his hands on it - that would be terrible - no-one will really do much. I also think that it's kind of tacky. I mean, why don't they just go back in time and make it so that Voldemort was never even born? I guess that would have lots of concequences, but still...it is kind of messed up.

[Divi]

I hope it's done with. It wasn't that bad to have once, but if it keeps being used there, it would be able to change any situation and problem-solving would be too easy. They need to figure out other ways to handle things. Each book has had a different solution to it's problems, so it would be tacky to bring it back up again.

[Da da da da da86]

McGonagall had to go through so much junk to get it, I don't think anyone would be willing to do that again.

I also thought it was cheesy and really detracted from the books (PoA is my least favorite). IMO, the time turner (like all time machines in the history of literature) opens up several plotholes (why didn't anyone use it the night the potters were killed? Why didn't they use it in GoF and send aurors along wth Harry to capture the deatheaters? ). It'sjust annoying to me, like the Veritaserum (why was Sirius in jail if the veritaserum is around?)

[Ron.Weasleys.Girl]

I totally agree. I dont think the TT will be returning in ant of the further books.

As for seeing my future self...Id prolly be a little freaked out but then I would ask it TONS of questions about what decitions to make. but then again I may never know if it was me from 10 minutes later of 10 years later *except for physical appearence* but Im sure you know what I mean. :)

I am also very confused about why they dont just use the veritaserum to get peopl in and out of Azkaban...I mean it would just make sence right???

[Dobby and Winky]

I don't think the TT is coming back. It's served it's purpose, and it had a big purpose. But it would get too complicated, and it be too repetitive.

[cristalfairy]

I don't think it will come back, but of course we never know because that is entirely up to JKR.
As for my reaction if I see my future self, I have no idea, but probably, I would be more worried about the fact that I'm breaking the law.
I agree that the veritaserum should be use more often, but in the case of Azkaban, Fudge knows he needs to keep the Dementors happy, so he tries to send them their ration of prey, and can't be bother with anything but keeping himself in office.

[3 Magic Beans]

I also don't think that the time turner will make a re-appearance. I think that everyone realised how much of a hassel it can be and that there can be very serious consequences. Everything would just get too complicated. And as people said before it leaves some plotholes as does the veritaserum.

I have no idea how I would react if I met my future self. It would definetely be weird but I can't picture myself attacking myself. Actually, I'm not sure I would really like myself. :rasp:

[JenBluffheid]

I think I'd like to see more of the Time-Turner in future books. It is an over-used theory in many books, but it's great to read how the writer adapts to creating a past/present visiual enough for us to understand.
I'd like to see all items back again:


Cloak
Time-Turner
Marauder's Map
Portkey
Pensieve
Firebolt


And I'm sure we'll see most of them back again. They are all vital components to defeating Lord Voldemort, in my opinion. Each of them have their good points and bad points, but most importantly, they are useful tools.

[Fleur]

Originally posted by Da da da da da86
IMO, the time turner (like all time machines in the history of literature) opens up several plotholes (why didn't anyone use it the night the potters were killed? Why didn't they use it in GoF and send aurors along wth Harry to capture the deatheaters? ). It'sjust annoying to me, like the Veritaserum (why was Sirius in jail if the veritaserum is around?)

I agree. The Time turner should not make a neew appearance, because it is a rule bender. You could have the ability to change things that would have a major impact on the series. It also brings a lot of "ifs". What if Harry traveled back in time to save his parents? His baby self would not attack him or anything. It has the ability to change too much.

[Benzo]

No time-turner ppplleeassee! JKR has more imagination than that!
I am not even sure I would like to see the marauder's map coming back, let's make it more dangerous!

[Tarawyn]

If the Time-Turner were to be brought up again, it'd have to be a past mention of it, and not a very big one (maybe just an accusation of law breaking, or something like that; the plot's been taken care of). It isn't that there are any plotholes--the method Rowling used for time-travel uses one timeline that has already been effected by any changes--but it's too complicated for much writing, and Rowling has stated that. Of the objects Jen stated, the Map, Cloak, and Pensieve are the ones most likely to reappear with major roles, as they're the most complicated. The map and cloak can play parts in fighting, and the Pensieve can teach--and those two are the plotlines that are really being followed.

[Romulus Lupin]

Well said, Tarawyn.

Although the Time-Turner was perhaps not adequately explained in book 3, it apparently can't be used to *change* anything, thus the worry about it is relatively baseless. Harry & Hermione didn't actually change anything - they just went back and insured that things happened the way they were supposed to. (I had a very detailed post on MuggleNet about time-travel. :sigh: )

As for what I would do if I'd met myself as a time-traveller - I wouldn't be overly concerned if I knew such things were possible without using dark magic. If I were familiar with the concept and workings of the Turner and I happened to see myself, the first thing I'd do would be to look for the hourglass pendant. Maybe I'd quiz myself to make sure it was really me, rather than a polyjuiced impostor.

[Cho Chang]

Hmm ... don't know if the Time-Turner will come back in future books .. since the ministry need recognition and tons of paper work.. before a person can get his/her hands on one ... .. but never know ... Voldemort got strong evil power that no one can predict....

And I wonder how the Time-turner works ... since from book 3 .. Hermione needed to flip it 3 times to go back 3 hours ... so if we need to go back 1 day ... we need to flip it around 24 times??? So 1 week equals 148 times??? Or maybe there's a BIGGER time-turner .. so you can go back in DAY/WEEK/YEAR-interval???

If people can go back more than couple of hours ... why didn't Voldemort go back and finish Harry off??? Or even finish Dumbledore when he was a child????

Or better yet .. why didn't Dumbledore go back in time to stop Voldemort from killing the Potters??????

[raeredeyes]

I dont think that it would be viable to go back in time to kill Voldemort.
Ok, you would be saving the Potters, but that alone could alter the future/present so much, that it would be completely different.
The time turners use to save Sirius and Buckbeak was alright, cause it wasnt changing the future too much. The fact that Sirius was innocent was another reason why its use was justified.
With the Voldemort thing, there is just too much room for error: too many things would change.

At least, thats how i see it :smile:

[Cho Chang]

That's the question .... when people use the Time-Turner .. they aren't suppose to CHANGE history??? That makes me quite confused!!

If I have a time-turner .. I won't let my real-time self bump into previous-time self .. that will cause way too many confusions!!!

So I think I can live without the time-turner .. but the thought of using that to study for my finals and finish my programs ... really tempting!!! LOL

:D

[Tarawyn]

Changing what had happened wouldn't have been an option. On the one night we saw the active use of the time-turner, this was made clear. If the things hadn't already happened, we wouldn't have seen duplicates. Harry was never Kissed by the dementor because he had already saved himself. From the old MN boards:
There are two popular ideas to time-travel.

In one, if you go back in time you should never touch a single thing. Anything you do could change history.
Say you go back to the Jurassic era. You sneeze. It turns out that the germs in your sneeze affects all kinds of dinosaurs badly- they all die out in a short time. Whoops, you've disrupted history. The future of mankind has been changed.

In another, if you go back in time, whatever you do changed nothing.
Say you went back to the Jurassic era. You sneeze. It turns out that the germs in your sneeze affect all kinds of dinosaurs badly- they all die out in a short time. But then you realise that your sneeze is the reason why the dinosaurs died out in the first place. The past hasn't altered just because you were in it, in fact being in it is the reason it happened at all.

The latter is the one Rowling used.

[Cho Chang]

So going back in time won't have an effect in History ... how did Harry save Black and Buckbeak .. that's the confusing part!!! If whether Harry went back in time or not .. Black's saved by someone/something else????

:??:

[Tarawyn]

Cho, I think you misunderstood me. Harry did go back in time, but because there's only one time line, it had already happened. One way to explain time travel is that if anyone makes a mistake, or changes something, then the outcome changes the future, leaving you with a split timeline. Rowling chose to display time travel with one, unsplit line: nothing that has happened can be affected, because it already took place. People who go back in time to change the past already have done so, and therefore aren't really changing it; they're just taking their place to cause what already happened. The example with the dinosaur's is the easiest: if someone was to go back in time and sneeze in the Jurassic, you wouldn't be messing up what had already happened. It happened already and you're the reason why it did.

[cannonFan]

:wow: WOW Tarawyn, you obviousally have a good grasp on temporal mechanics. In a way the second theory implied that there is a destany. That people cannot change what they did or are going to do because on some point on the time line it has already happened and will happen. The first theory whick JKR doesn't use has the premece that every thing that could happen does happen in another time line... course according to that theory there is a reality where none of us have read Harry Potter :'( OK, too much thinking.. my brain is starting to hurt.

[cristalfairy]

Originally posted by 3 Magic Beans
...Actually, I'm not sure I would really like myself. :rasp:
That was priceless, I love that.:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[foxxy_pixie_gurl]

if it shows up in future books cool. but i don't think that it will.

well seeing my other self future or past that would be awesome yeah yeah thats the word.poke:

[Cho Chang]

Originally posted by Tarawyn
Cho, I think you misunderstood me. Harry did go back in time, but because there's only one time line, it had already happened. One way to explain time travel is that if anyone makes a mistake, or changes something, then the outcome changes the future, leaving you with a split timeline. Rowling chose to display time travel with one, unsplit line: nothing that has happened can be affected, because it already took place. People who go back in time to change the past already have done so, and therefore aren't really changing it; they're just taking their place to cause what already happened. The example with the dinosaur's is the easiest: if someone was to go back in time and sneeze in the Jurassic, you wouldn't be messing up what had already happened. It happened already and you're the reason why it did.

Sorry ... I am still alittle bit confuse ... :??: Time-Turner rack up my brain!!!!!!! :D
So Harry went back in time to save Black and Buckbeak ... it doesn't affect the outcome .. either way .. Black and Buckbeak will be save by some other force????

[dumbleedore]

It took me several goes of PoA to actually get the time travel bit, with how they saved Buckbeak.

I'll get my book... *runs out of room and tears bedroom apart*... *comes back into the room with book, lip gloss and malteasers*...

Now, before we know of Harry and Hermione going back in time, we have this dialogue of Buckbeaks 'death'.

PoA, page 243-244
There was a jumble of indistinct male voices, a silence and then, without warning, the unmistakeable swish and thud of an axe.
Hermione swayed on the spot.
'They did it!' she whispered to Harry. 'I d-don't believe it - they did it!'
Harry's mind had gone blank with shock. The three of them stood transfixed with horror under the invisibility cloak. They very last rays of the setting sun were casting a bloody light over the long shadowed grounds. Then, behind them, they heard a wild howling.

From that, we think that Buckbeak has been killed and Hagrid's howling obviously indicates that things are that way as well.

But, when they go back in time, we get a different perspective.

PoA, page 294
'Where is it?' said the reedy voice of the Committee member. 'Where is the beast?'
'It was tied here!' said the executioner furiously. 'I saw it! Just here!'
'How extraordinary,' said Dumbledore. There was a note of amusment in his voice.
'Beaky!' said Hagrid hukily.
There was a swishing noise, and the thud of an axe. The executioner seemed to have swung it into the fence in anger. And then came the howling, and this time they could hear Hagrid's words through his sobs.

Now, what takes place there actually happens in the first quote, but we aren't there to see it.

In another, if you go back in time, whatever you do changed nothing.
Say you went back to the Jurassic era. You sneeze. It turns out that the germs in your sneeze affect all kinds of dinosaurs badly- they all die out in a short time. But then you realise that your sneeze is the reason why the dinosaurs died out in the first place. The past hasn't altered just because you were in it, in fact being in it is the reason it happened at all.

I believe that that is how time in JK's world works. We know this from those two quotes from PoA.

I don't think the time turner will come back. I read somewhere that JK said it won't because time is too messy to write.

And as for using to save the Potter's and stop Voldemort, you can't go back in time and make major differences. Saving the Potter's might have had a drastic effect on the wizarding world and that is why Dumbledore wouldn't have done it. If he believe that they could be saved without something bad happening, I can imagine that he would.

[Emilia]

I thought the TT was very well written and clever in PoA, I quite enjoyed how everything clicked and the way it seemed destined that Harry and Hermione were there to save Buckbeek.

I don't really see why Hermione was given one. I mean if it was under such strict regulations by the M.o.M and witches and wizards can't even be trusted to perform simple spells at home during the summer if they are underage. It seems a little odd that the ministry would give a third year student a chance to change history, rather then just tell her to choose fewer subjects or have her timetable modified.

But I suppose you could say that if they were destined to save Buckbeek and Sirius then maybe the ministry was not as hard as they should or normally would have been. Maybe it was approved by somebody just out of Hogwarts or something. I guess we'll never know.

What really bothers me is the veritaserum. The ministry is very restrictive with it, Snape says so. But he can still threaten Harry with slipping some in his pumpkin juice. So at least Snape has enough of it not to have be too stingy with it. So why didn't the ministry use it to to find Deatheaters and have fair trials.
Why is it not required that all new Hogwarts teachers take some and then have an interview with Dumbledore to make sure that they are not under the influence of the Imperius curse or posing as someone the're not? (on arrival to Hogwarts, of course, or it would be pointless)

Does anyone have a good theory on that one so I can sleep at night and not lie thinking about it?

Or maybe I should just get a life. And I will.
Just as soon as book 7 is published.

[Muse]

After reading all the posts here, I think my brain hurts. LOL

On the original topic, I don't think the Time Turner will return except perhaps to make reference to its previous use by Hermione.

I don't know what I'd do if I saw myself from the future. I know I'd probably freak the hell out.

Emilia, good question regarding why Hermione was given a TT~it does make one wonder that a student would be allowed to have use of such a powerful device.

On the veritaserum, I imagine it to be like taking a lie detector test. In the real world, you can't force someone to take one can you? Using it to find Deatheaters can be likened to finding witches during the Salem trials period or McCarthy looking for Communists back in the day, using something that, if used on someone, would automatically incriminate that person regardless of whether they tell the truth or are found otherwise, because they took it and in doing so, are reflected as suspects. They'd have to have actual evidence more than merely circumstantial to have a concrete reason to administer the veritaserum I would think. So perhaps that is why the veritaserum isn't used as such for finding Deatheaters. As for using it in the Hogwarts School hiring process, again, like a lie detector, I guess if there isn't any restrictive policies, I think it would be up to Dumbledore to use it if he really wanted to. But knowing Dumbledore and his open-arms, open-minded personality, I see why he does not. He appears to be one who gives people first the benefit of the doubt rather than being initially suspicious. :)

[Emilia]

Ah! I see your point Muse, 'bout the veritaserum.
But still, If you know that your not guilty, and are facing i life sentance in Azkaban, wouldn't one take veritaserum to prove that?
I mean, it's a magical object, not like muggle-lie-dectors that are not one hundred procent accurat. Veritaserum would not allow you to say anything that's not true.
But I guess, if some wizards are strong enough to fight the Imperius Curse, i suppose then some might be strong enough to know how to manipulate veritaserum.

Maybe that's the answer to my question? :)

[Muse]

Hey, very interesting point, Emilia, about the veritaserum difference. :) Come to think of it, therein lies its similarity to lie detectors too, don't you think? Some people could manipulate lie detector tests by proper control of their emotions, rate of heart beats, or physical reactions to certain questions. So I think your theory is possible. :) It could very well be true, or else a combination both of what you said and if there are any potential restrictive laws on its use. :) It will be interesting to see whether JKR decides to expand on the use of the veritaserum in the future books. :)

[Puffskein]

Back to the Time Turner - I think that if Harry and Hermione hadn't gone back in time, the sound of the axe WOULD have been Buckbeak being executed. But because they did go back in time, it never was. I'll get a headache if I think about it anymore...

I felt like the Time Turner in POA was handled well enough to not look too much like a cheat, but I don't think it'll be used again. Writers of fantasy and sci-fi have to be very careful not to invent devices that would invalidate the plot.

[Justin Etre]

i think devices from all the books will be used in the final book, to show what harry has learnt, in aplan to destroy voldie

[Yoshi]

Hmm, yeah maybe, but if V was able to get his hands on the Time-Turnere, it would be abso-bally-lute CHAOS!

[GodricSlytherin]

I think that they will be going back into time..maybe even more than Hermione and Hary did in the third book..maybe back so Harry could see his parents...it could be possible..maybe..that..he needs to knwo something that his parents talked about..and maybe Ron and HErmione will go to find out for HArry...or all three of them could go..I doubt that they would think HArry was part of their family..mnaybe some resemblance..but they just say...oh wellz..

I also think..that Fawkes...the sorting hat....the mirror..the broom...and ford anglia..will be of more importance in the books..any other itmes..or more info on what you think these following items will be used for in the future?

If this is already a thread..I am sorry..but I ddin't really se anything with this..and if you find one..well...umm...redirect it into that one..or just put this one..since this will be more updated...????

LOL

[Yurika Star]

I don't really think time travel will play much of a role in the next book.

It's just not JK's style. And that stuff takes serious Ministry approval. And with the probable ministry mutany who knows what will be happening there.

I think a little bit of timetravel may occur in the last book, but thats along way to look ahead.

yeah, i gotta agree with Fawkes (order of the phoenix) and the sorting hat will be coming in.

But this is to much theorising.

[Elensil]

Time travel sounds like a bad idea. It creates too many questionable posibiities.
Harry travels back in time to kill baby Voldemort. His curse backfires and Voldemort survives with a lighning scar on his forehead to become known as the boy who lived.... etc.

[Re'em_Herder]

Originally posted by Elensil
Harry travels back in time to kill baby Voldemort. His curse backfires and Voldemort survives with a lighning scar on his forehead to become known as the boy who lived.... etc.

:elaugh: Hahaha! Nah, I don't think JKR would use a similar storyline to that at the end of PoA, it's just not original. :tu:

[Yurika Star]

Yeah, the time travel thing is more of a FanFic thing, not really likely to happen in the books.

[apples]

Well, I think there's a reason why Rowling likes Book 2. She's always said this is the one she enjoys the most. I think it's set the stage for some really important things in future books, we just don't know about them yet.

I do think there's a lot of really cool stuff coming with the Sorting Hat and the Ford Anglia, I just can't imagine what those things might be...

[Yurika Star]

Yeah.
I think that the sword, fawkes and the sorting hat, coupled with the "Only a true gryfindor..." thing will play a big part.

I'm not really sure about the Ford Anglia, it's already saved there lives once, it may pop in again, as some kind of transport for Ron, or as a liasen between the forrest and the school. With Hagrids help.
But thats a long shot.

[Perdita]

If she does revisit the time-travel plotline, i hope that she'll address the the impact that the events that took place during the time travelling might have on the "current real time."

Anybody study science and knows the correct terminology for this type of thing? I'm having a hard time describing what i want to say (e.g. current real time).

Whenever someone travels through time in the STTNG series, they never, or hardly ever, addressed this issue. Any action or event that you change in the past could have dire consequences for what currently exists. Time travel is a very tricky tool, and unless it is dealt with in a realistic way, such as addressing all the serious implications, i hope that we don't see it again. It's too fantastical and quite foolish at the same time. That is why the MoM puts such tight restrictions on the use of time-turners (somewhat).

Having said all that, i have to admit that it is fun to read about, and certainly fun to write about as well.

[Sherlock Holmes]

I don't know if science HAS a correct term! :) One of the Back to the Future movies did address this a bit, in that they inadvertenly created an "alternate reality." There was the 1985 they were used to, and then "another" 1985 that they had accidentally created. They had to do scurry around to fix things to get rid of the "alternate" 1985. Yeah, it's way too wierd to wrap our minds around, so I hope JKR doesn't use it. It is fun to imagine though.

[Yurika Star]

But in the books, she uses the time travel part as something that has already happened once, and will happen again.

Like, in PoA, everything they would do whilst they time travel, they already do in the real time, and are going to do it in the futre, which is the present, if you get what i mean.

It is very tricky to write about. And we have only seen traveling back in time, there maybe no way to travel back from where you left.

It would take some good writing to do it propaly, with out any plot-holes, and to mkae it read well for the desired audience.

[Perdita]

Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes
I don't know if science HAS a correct term! :) One of the Back to the Future movies did address this a bit, in that they inadvertenly created an "alternate reality." There was the 1985 they were used to, and then "another" 1985 that they had accidentally created. They had to do scurry around to fix things to get rid of the "alternate" 1985. Yeah, it's way too wierd to wrap our minds around, so I hope JKR doesn't use it. It is fun to imagine though.

Ah...Sherlock, thanks for helping to illustrate just how confusing all of it is!

And yes, Yurika, you're right. JKR did address this somewhat by having Hermione be very careful, and convince Harry to also be very careful, while they were travelling back in time. But she still does not address the issue of consequences.

What happened in PoA was very cleverly done. The things that H and Hr changed ended up escaping and they did not become an immediate problem. The impact of those actions have yet to manifest themselves, so we're safe. However, if Harry were to travel back in time to fight Voldemort or something along those lines, it would have immediate repurcussions in the current time/reality/realm/world/ alternate... WHATEVER! Say, if Harry goes back to 1980 and vanquishes Voldy there, what does that mean for the wizarding world during those years between 1980 and 1995? What happens to all those who became death eaters? Would we have another villain in place of Voldemort? There would be so many questions and very few plausible answers, unless you re-write history.

Big ideas. Very complex. You know what i mean?

[fawkesthepheonix]

Ooh, cool! Going back in time to see his parents? That would be a great idea, but probably for the seventh book, maybe near the end or something. Could you imagine how emotional that would be? :'(

[Re'em_Herder]

Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes
I don't know if science HAS a correct term! :) One of the Back to the Future movies did address this a bit, in that they inadvertenly created an "alternate reality." There was the 1985 they were used to, and then "another" 1985 that they had accidentally created. They had to do scurry around to fix things to get rid of the "alternate" 1985. Yeah, it's way too wierd to wrap our minds around, so I hope JKR doesn't use it. It is fun to imagine though.

Too weird is an understatement. Ok, Harry and Hermione go back and rescue Buckbeak and then Sirius, right? Just before they go back into the Hospital Wing, the other Harry and Hermione go back, rescue Buckbeak and Sirius. Then just before they go back to the Hospital Wing, the other Harry and Hermione go back, rescue Buckbeak and Sirius, etc. There are infinite timelines, because the Harry and Hermione that went into the Shrieking Shack go back in time, to another Harry and Hermione who went into the Shrieking Shack. If you can understand what I'm saying, you'll see that there are infinite timelines, and the time travel will just keep going on forever. Whew, I hope I got that right :scared:

[Qeomash]

Time Travel is possibly the most dangerous thing in the world. With a time machine, I could destroy the world in one gunshot. Go back in time and kill myself. Time could never correct itself, and therefore could not go on. Some speculate that it could go on, I'd just never be there.

I really doubt JKR will use it again. But, there are still three books that we don't know what happens in them to go!

[Sherlock Holmes]

LOL, Re'em! This is why time travel is impossible and will forever remain impossible.

If Harry went back in time to see his parents...they wouldn't know who he was. He would just confuse them, I think. Here's a idea, following Perdita's line of thought; if Harry went back in time and vanquished Voldemort before Voldemort attacked Harry the baby (is it possible that Harry could go back in time before his own birth?), Harry would then have modified history and, more importantly, modified his own memory. All that time that he's been growing up, dealing with Voldemort, would have ceased to be. In fact, Harry wouldn't even know why he was in the past, because his reason for being in the past (Voldemort) had ceased to be. Does that make any kind of sense? Whew. Time-travel makes my head hurt! :??:

[Re'em_Herder]

Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes
LOL, Re'em! This is why time travel is impossible and will forever remain impossible.

If Harry went back in time to see his parents...they wouldn't know who he was. He would just confuse them, I think. Here's a idea, following Perdita's line of thought; if Harry went back in time and vanquished Voldemort before Voldemort attacked Harry the baby (is it possible that Harry could go back in time before his own birth?), Harry would then have modified history and, more importantly, modified his own memory. All that time that he's been growing up, dealing with Voldemort, would have ceased to be. In fact, Harry wouldn't even know why he was in the past, because his reason for being in the past (Voldemort) had ceased to be. Does that make any kind of sense? Whew. Time-travel makes my head hurt! :??:

Not necessarily. There would be two Harrys (not including the infinite Harrys that went back to save Sirius :elaugh: ). One Harry on one Timeline and another Harry in a different parallel timeline, just like in Back to the Future. One Harry would have his parents and not have a scar or be famous. While the other Harry wouldn't exist in the new present, because the other Harry Potter does. Therefore, he would have to go back in time and stop himself destroying Voldemort so that he could go back into his proper present (although me may want to pick up a sports almanac on the way ;) ). Do you get it? :??: It's very confusing.

[GodricSlytherin]

Maybe they will go back in time..not that far..sort of like what they did for PoA...but maybe like the day before...

Well...I think..that there are three different parts of time..of course..Past present future...

Present HArry
Future Harry
Past Harry

These are all different dimesnions....and they each live in one..and there may come a time when two of them possibly cross..which is what the time turner does..and then..there is also the fact..that..there is a chance..that there is a Harry out there that isn't famous and has parents..on that has parents and is famous..or one that doesn't have parents and isn't famous...and possibly one that turned out to be a muggle...

[Sherlock Holmes]

Yeah, I get it. But I think he should just pick up the sports almanac and forget about Voldemort. With enough money, he can buy safety. ;) I think we're going to go insane if we keep this time-travel thing going much longer...I think it would even drive Einstein batty!

[Re'em_Herder]

:elaugh: Yeah, but Harry wouldn't do that, seing as he gave 1000 Galleons away (about $7000 US). I pray that JKR just never gets that Time-Turner out again...

[SeniorFishy]

I hope there is no time travel in future books, its so complicated. I remember reading some Piers Anthony books and a certain boys magic skill was that he was allowed to go back in time for about a few minutes once or twice a day. That was probably imaginable by a normal person but in the HP universe you could ask yourself, why doesn't Voldemort just time travel back in time and kill Lily or James while they are in school. Why doesn't person X time travel to kill voldemort after he meet Harry for the first time. Why doesn't someone time travel to stop Crouch Jr from trapping Moody. I mean the list goes on and on, I really wish time travel wasn't mentioned cause I hate it.

[Picko]

But perhaps you can't move forward through history so if you went back 20 years then you would have to live in the past for 20 years before you got back to the present that you left. So going back to say the time that Voldemort killed Harry's parents would be silly because Harry would then have to stay in the past for ages.

[Re'em_Herder]

Originally posted by Picko
But perhaps you can't move forward through history so if you went back 20 years then you would have to live in the past for 20 years before you got back to the present that you left. So going back to say the time that Voldemort killed Harry's parents would be silly because Harry would then have to stay in the past for ages.

Ugh, that would be absolutely horrible! I guess it teaches you not to play with time! :bite:

[Perdita]

Originally posted by Picko
But perhaps you can't move forward through history so if you went back 20 years then you would have to live in the past for 20 years before you got back to the present that you left. So going back to say the time that Voldemort killed Harry's parents would be silly because Harry would then have to stay in the past for ages.

Yes, that would be cool idea for a whole different novel!

Unfortunately, in Potterverse, there is no such restriction. In fact, you would only be able to stay in the past for a limited amount of time. Remember H and Hr having to rush back to the infirmary? In Potterverse, you would be forced to travel back to the present as you are not allowed to stay in the past realm for very long.

[Re'em_Herder]

They only had to rush back because DD locked the door...

[apples]

I always wondered why they just didn't use the Time-Turner again if they missed Dumbledore locking the door! :P

[rotsiepots]

The difficulties we're experiencing attempting to wrap our minds around the concept of time travel are the same ones experienced by JKR. She has stated in interviews, I believe, that she will not reuse the time turner as a means of time travel, because it's just too confusing.

Harry could, admitedly, travel back in time in a similar means as in CoS or GoF (eg travelling through memories set in the past). This isn't quite as mind bending as the concept of having two Harrys and what not running around.

Edit: Someone asked JKR this direct question:

Will Harry time-travel again?

JKR responded with: "Not telling!"

There's nice and obscure for you.

[Re'em_Herder]

Originally posted by rotsiepots


Edit: Someone asked JKR this direct question:

Will Harry time-travel again?

JKR responded with: "Not telling!"

There's nice and obscure for you.

Here we go Again!!! :p

[Sherlock Holmes]

I think Picko is right, you can't travel forward in history. Apparently all the time that Hermione was using it, she was only going back about an hour, going to her class, and then hurrying to be wherever she was when she initially time-traveled (what would happen if she didn't get back in time? Would she end up as a split person, like a badly done Apparation?). This helps to get rid of the alternative universe problem, except that everyone who didn't time-travel still exists in their own reality. Hermione escaped this problem by not changing anything, just occupying a chair that didn't have a person in it before. But that's why Ron and Harry were confused by seeing her and then not seeing her.

This whole time-travel deal seems extremely dangerous and now that we've been working through the implications, I am surprised that a teacher as level-headed as McGonagall would allow it to be used for something as insignificant as going to classes. That just doesn't sound like a safe thing to allow a student to do!

[Re'em_Herder]

Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes
(what would happen if she didn't get back in time? Would she end up as a split person, like a badly done Apparation?). !

Nothing, except that she would be locked out of the Hospital Wing. That's all, since the original Hermione went back in time as well. I explained it in another post, so just scroll up and take a look (yeah, I know you've read it Sherlock). :)

[Liz]

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[huffellpuff]

I honestly dont think the time turner will show up. The MOM had given it to Hermione for her classes and now that she has a "normal" amount of classes - there's not need for her to keep it. Its obviously a valuable piece and I doubt the MOM would let her keep it - even if she is a model student.

[Sherlock Holmes]

Yes, I remember, Re'em---the "endlessly looping" time-travel deal? I can't quite get my mind around that---which one is really Hermione? I do follow your explanation though, and my confusion is just another indication that time-travel can't work! Phew. Too much insanity!

[Re'em_Herder]

Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes
Yes, I remember, Re'em---the "endlessly looping" time-travel deal? I can't quite get my mind around that---which one is really Hermione? I do follow your explanation though, and my confusion is just another indication that time-travel can't work! Phew. Too much insanity!

You're not thinking 4-dimensionally! :p

[Sherlock Holmes]

Originally posted by Re'em_Herder
You're not thinking 4-dimensionally! :p

I know...I'm living in the 3-D version of Flatland! :lol:

[You-Know-Her]

Maybe it will let Harry see what was happening with his parents and you know who 12 or 14 years ago and thats how JKR will tell us.

[Annapurna1]

Actually is prolly and old twist, anyway...

First a little gedanken experiment: Suppose Hermione takes an exam in class X. She then uses her time twister to go back in time to take a simultaneously scheduled exam in class Y.

This doesnt work in muggle time, since the grade from class X ceases to exist when she changes time lines. But the Hogwarts teachers still manage to get both grades anyway. This is only possible if they have access to some kind of 2-dimensional wizard time that contains time trees as opposed to simple time lines.

For the most part, however, Hogwarts is still on muggle time. The other notable exception besides Hermione is when Tom Riddle says that Voldy is his "past, present, and future" (in 1-d muggle time he could only be his future); this might also explain the infamous ancestor error. But we know that some of the Hogwarts teachers (and Voldy) have at least some access to 2-d time.

Im going to take a big leap-of-faith from here: JKR said something about a "new magical world" in OoP. My guess is that this new world is to the wizard world what the wizard world is to the muggle world; and that time has 2 dimensions in this world. That would also mean that there are muggles, and then there are wizards, and then there are some kind of super-wizards that can understand and use 2-d time.

And most importantly, it means that Hermione is such a super-wizard; Harry and Ron could use her time-turner about as effectively as Dudley Dursley could use Harry's wand. (Note that only Hermione actually uses the time-twister, although she can apparently take others along with her, in much the same way that Hagrid's umbrella put a tail on Dudley). Since the Hermione shares a rare ability with some of the Hogwarts staff, along with her academic ability, we can deduce that she is the one who will become a professor, although not all professors need be super-wizards.

The concept of 2-d time is indeed ghoulish, and if JKR can manage it properly, it would bring OoP into the same realm as H.P. Lovecraft's (H.P. does not mean "Harry Potter", thx) Necronomicon mythos and the works of Austin Osman Spare (http://www.hermetic.com/spare/) (dont try this at home); both writers mix sorcery with physics (although the scientific aspect is not directly visible). If im right about this, then OoP should be even more funner than anyone might have imagined.

[fawkes_the_phoenix]

Wow....what a mouthful.....interesting theory.....sounds cool to me:coolblue:

[Mickey]

I suppose you would have to have some type of 2D time, as linear time just wouldn't quite work out. Or, it could be one of those "please suspend your disbelief while I tell you a fun story" kind of things. ;)

[Emilia]

It's a bit of a mouthful, but a great idea!

Annapurna1, you mean that in the muggle world we can only be one place att one time, even if time travel did work for muggles. But being a superwizard Hermione can be in two places at the same time?

Sounds like a stroke of genius to me. It would make for a really interesting book, even if it might not a little hard to keep track of the charachters while reading.

[pasalita]

Actually, an thread already exists that discusses this topic in a very thorough, if not round-about, way called:

The Time Turner in Future Books (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26).

Please continue your discussion there.

*lock*

[Annapurna1]

One point everyone seems to have missed is that Hermione got the results of all her exams, which would be impossible with only a single time line, since the result of one exam ceases to exist when she goes back in time and takes another one instead.

[cannonFan]

... but she doesn't take another one instead. There are multiple Hermione's each taking a different test at the same time. When she goes back in time she doesn't replace the Hermione tht already there, two of them coexist in the same time frame untill the time comes that the 'first' one uses the time turner and becomes the 'second' one.

[Annapurna1]

Originally posted by cannonFan
... but she doesn't take another one instead. There are multiple Hermione's each taking a different test at the same time. When she goes back in time she doesn't replace the Hermione tht already there, two of them coexist in the same time frame untill the time comes that the 'first' one uses the time turner and becomes the 'second' one.

Just the fact that there are two Hermiones means that there must be two time lines. Rather than having two Hermiones, its easier, for me anyway, to postulate two paralell universes and the TT as a device that intergrates relevant events (ie test scores) between them.

[Sebastian06]

The fact that people can change time doesn't really matter, it's just that they're not allowed to; it's against wizard law.

"No!" said Hermione in a terrified whisper. "Don't you understand? We're breaking one of the most important wizarding laws! Nobody's supposed to change time, nobody!"

Therefore, even if Harry or Dumbledore could go back and save the Potters, or if the Ministry could go back and prevent murders or other crimes, they wouldn't be able to without earning a cell in Azkaban.

[fuzzi95]

Yes, but the person wouldn't be dead! It just depends on how much you care for the poor unfortunate soul...

[Alison]

On another subject, here is my latest obsessively detailed question about Prisoner of Azkaban. I admit this is insane, but I hope you'll indulge me!

It has to do with the end of Chapter Seven (Boggart in the Wardrobe).
Ron, Harry and Hermione are leaving Potions class on their way to the Great Hall for lunch. Ron says something to Hermione, who was right behind them, but she is gone.

"'There she is,'said Harry.
Hermione was panting slightly, hurrying up the stairs; one hand clutching her bag, the other seemed to be tucking something down the front of her robes.
'How did you do that?' said Ron.
'What?" said Hermione, joining them.
'One minute you were right behind us, and next moment, you were back at the bottom of the stairs again.'"

How DID she do it?

We could assume Hermione had to go back in time to attend a class running concurrently to Potions. So she used the time turner while they were on the stairs, and disappeared. Then, when she finished the class, she ran to catch up with Harry and Ron, who were just leaving potions.

Why was she tucking the time turner into her robes? Wouldn't that mean she had just arrived back in time from the future? But it was the beginning of lunch, she wouldn't be coming back to repeat lunch hour. No, she was running from her other class. For her, a whole class period had passed since she last used the time turner. Does anyone have an explanation for this?

[Sorting Hat's Songwriter]

wow thats seriously observant. the only (pitiful) explaination is that she left the time turner out or her robes for the whole of the other lesson, and only realised when she got back on the stairs. i thought i thought about hp books too much, youre just way far ahead!!!!!

[Weasley24]

That is really observant! Hmm, thats strange though. Why would she be tucking it back into her robes if she had turned it awhile ago? She probably forgot to tuck it back in her robes, like Sorting Hat's Songwriter said, but then people would have noticed it during the lesson, and wouldnt that cause questions? :??:

[miri]

I've got the fact that Potions is in the dungeons stuck in my head now... had they been walking long enough to come to another staircase?

Also, remember when Hermione is walking with the boys to a lesson, fuming, and "is so angry she must have forgotten to go"? the same sort of thing happened. Maybe it's just the way the thing works?

Although, then ppl would notice her doing this on a regular basis...

[Spitf1re]

:welcome to the CoS Forums Sorting hat' Songwriter!


Good observation. I think that this whole seen is just subtle foreshadowing the fact about Hermione's Time Turner.
My theory is that when Hermione was behind them after Potions, she used the Time Turner to go to her other class that's has just happened. That class was up the stairs so she appeared there after the lesson, probably thinking that Harry and Ron were still there.
As for the part where she hold the front of her robes, she was probably checking the Time Turner. Maybe she had a cramp from running around the school.

[1MelissaPotter]

When she is done do the extra Hermiones disappear when the hour she went back is over? If the happens then maybe the Hermione is class with them was disapperaring and the original Hermione was goin 2 the next class from whatever she just had at the same time as the class they just had. ;D

[DocHollidaywe]

great observation! Maybe she wanted lunch 2 times :)

[pasalita]

First off, :welcome: to CoS forums!

Second, there are many a thread that discusses the Time Turner. Simply conduct a search using "time turner," and you should be able to find one associated with your observation.

In the future, please conduct a search prior to posting a new thread. If you need any help, please feel free to PM me, a prefect, another Moderator, or an Administrator. Thanks!

*lock*

[miri]

Originally posted by Muse (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=25114#post25114))
Hey, very interesting point, Emilia, about the veritaserum difference. :) Come to think of it, therein lies its similarity to lie detectors too, don't you think? Some people could manipulate lie detector tests by proper control of their emotions, rate of heart beats, or physical reactions to certain questions. So I think your theory is possible. :) It could very well be true, or else a combination both of what you said and if there are any potential restrictive laws on its use. :) It will be interesting to see whether JKR decides to expand on the use of the veritaserum in the future books. :)


From what I understand from Psychology, certain people, ie psychopaths, dont function the same way as most people do. Cause and effect aren't as clearly defined for one:
eg. one study where a group of normals and a group of psychopaths were told that after a certain period of questioning, a harmless but painful electric shock would be administered. Their heart rates, sweat levels etc were measured the eintire time. In the control group, as the time approached shock-time, the participants started to become nervous. Unlike the psychopaths. I think also the normals took longer to relax again after the shock.

Psychopaths are very rarely socialised properly, tending to be antisocial loners (although there are a few who function within gangs). They wont have the norms and values usually associated within their culture/ society. As such, lying doesnt present a moral dilemna.

This, coupled with their different responses, means that polygraph tests are useless for this percentage of the population.

Very few people can mentally control these things. There are a few, but not many.

But maybe the Veritaserum works in similar ways in so much as that if the person given it does not believe they are lying, then the Veritaserum wont pick it up. They really did think Sirius had gone insane.

[miri]

Originally posted by Mickey (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=119017#post119017))
I suppose you would have to have some type of 2D time, as linear time just wouldn't quite work out.

Time isnt linear. It curves. The equation for the curve is not yet known. After I discover metallic Hallogens (which will be after I finish my current undergrad course that i'm in my first year of, done a chem one, become a Dr...) I'll work on it ;)

Well ok I wont! But time DOES curve. Also, we live in a 4D world, the 4th dimension being time. Light curves too so maybe all the dimensions do, light being something we can view travelling for quite a distance.

And ALL the Hermiones etc running around are the *real* Hermione. To be honest, I reckon the hardest concept is that Hermione has the knowledge from all the lessons. And people did see her in different classes at the same time. And Harry saw himself. But then that makes it easier.

So I believe she looped in to the same *time strand* if you want to call it, and went to different places, multiple times. Imagine a slinky or a spring. Overlap a bit of it in the middle so you have a loop of loops, but with all the loops touching at one point. Imagine straightening out the bits before and after the loop of loops. This is Hermione's life with the TT. She goes down one loop. Returns to the same point in time. Goes down another one. Returns. She does this til all her lessons (the loops) have been attended then goes down the straight path at the other end, continuing along the perceived linear timeline that we're used to.



:whistle: something like that anyways! That's how I understand it though a drawing would make it easier to explain. Especially as it's more like the loop from above, which occurs at real-time, then she's taken back to the point where all the loops touch. Oh - and she's always going forwards through time, but the time turner is making time itself, for her, jump backwards.

so yeah - this isnt actually something I found complicated lol! :o

[Perdita]

Originally posted by Re'em_Herder (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=97630#post97630))
Not necessarily. There would be two Harrys (not including the infinite Harrys that went back to save Sirius :elaugh: ). One Harry on one Timeline and another Harry in a different parallel timeline, just like in Back to the Future. One Harry would have his parents and not have a scar or be famous. While the other Harry wouldn't exist in the new present, because the other Harry Potter does. Therefore, he would have to go back in time and stop himself destroying Voldemort so that he could go back into his proper present (although me may want to pick up a sports almanac on the way ;) ). Do you get it? :??: It's very confusing.


The problem with this is that Rowling has already established that during time travel, one has not gone into another temporal realm or plane. In fact, they are all still of the same plane, so...I still don't think that it's gonna work.

[MadMagic]

I don't want to start a new thread about this and I don't really know if it has been discussed here or not, but here we go.

Does anyone think that Fred and George have/do time travel. How were they certain enough to bet their entire life saving's on the quidditch cup results. With my understanding of Quidditch, I don't think that the team that catches the snitch looses often. So how were they so positive at the outcome. Also before they made their bets they disappeared into the woods. So maybe they did a little time travel then. This idea came from the Ultimate Unofficial Guide to the Mysteries of Harry Potter and I really think that this is an interesting idea. Are Fred and George smarter and more powerful than they appear on the surface. Do they know how to travel in time and do they have a time turner.

[Sherlock Holmes]

They might have---it'd be a Fred-and-George thing to do. On the other hand, it appears that Time-Turners are very hard to get. I'm still surprised that Hermione, model student or not, had one.

And it's not out of character for Fred and George to impulsively bet all their money on the underdog. Not too prudent, maybe, but since when have Fred and George been prudent?

[MadMagic]

I guess Fred and George will always do crazy stuff.

And the Time Turner is such a serious thing. I don't know Hermione managed it all year. Each of her days must have been about 27 hours or so. I can't even imagine how tired she must have been. And at the end of GoF Hermione broke her agreement of only using the time turner for her classes. It is good to see that she is more concerned with helping her friends then following all the rules.

[smartypants]

Originally posted by MadMagic (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=208942#post208942))
Does anyone think that Fred and George have/do time travel. How were they certain enough to bet their entire life saving's on the quidditch cup results. With my understanding of Quidditch, I don't think that the team that catches the snitch looses often. So how were they so positive at the outcome.

Well, maybe they just wanted to go for the big money. :)
Just betting on Ireland winning wouldn't have given high odds, they were clear favourites, so then they would have just gotten back what they bet + maybe 50%. Not enough.

And with Krum being as good as he was, this was actually a pretty good, if high-risk, bet.

But you are right, it wouldn't surprise me if they somehow actually KNEW. :) Have they been into McGonnals secret cupboard and borrowed the time-turner? Hmmm...

[miri]

I dont think they would have coz it's dishonest. Judging by how upset they were at being ripped off, i dont think they would do anything that can be classed as underhand. I think there's a line between breaking rules to liven stuff up a bit - pulling pranks - and effectively cheating. I cant see them cheating on an exam; i cant see them cheating betting.

i'm not saying it's not a good idea, just i dont want to see them doing anything like that - out of greed, wrong, etc

[smartypants]

Maybe they are very good at Arithmancy. :)

[FatalBeauty]

I think there's a good chance that the time turner will be used again. I'm not sure if anyone's already brought this up, but did anyone notice that in PoA, Sirius had already died, but Harry and Hermione used the time turner to go back in time and save him? Is there a possibility that somebody could use the time turner to go back in time and save somebody else, possibly even Lily and James?

[Marethiel]

Having the time turner in a future book would be repetition, like many people stated earlier. I think that time will play a huge role in future books however, one seems to never have enough time. I also think there will be some more magical objects similar to the time turner, or maybe along the lines of deja vu. Who knows ^^

[Venustas]

I was kind of wondering if the time turner HAD been used again in book 5. How did Dumbledore just happen to show up for Harry's Hearing 3 hours early, after saying that he had missed the message taht Fudge claimed he had sent? It would have also required 3 turns...