Gringotts Security

[Windstar]

Here is another something I was wondering about recently:

Someone tried to break into Gringotts vault 713, on July 31st, after Hagrid and Harry had already emptied it.

When Griphook took Harry and Hagrid to vault 713, he opened it with his long finger and said that if anyone but a Gringott's goblin tried to open it, they would be sucked inside and trapped there. Harry asked Griphook how often they checked to see if anyone was in there and Griphook replied to him "About once every ten years."

So, how did they know that someone had tried to break into that vault if they only check it every 10 years?

There apparently wasn't someone trapped in there or else they would have the culprit in custody.

How would someone get to that vault in the first place if it wasn't in one of those rail cars with a Gringott goblin?

Can you apparate inside of Gringott's? That wouldn't be very safe I wouldn't think. I wouldn't think you could.

[ornjbreezy]

That's a really interesting question. Maybe there's a goblin traitor that helped Voldemort/Quirrel: we know lots of them are willing to work for him.

[Jodan]

I think the wizard who broke in was powerful enough to beat the magical security. The goblins noticed signs of attempter break-in and figured someone had tried to break in.

[red_fairy]

Maybe there are alarms on the vault, and after trying for so long Quirrel accidently set it off.

[jasper]

Maybe the security spell was turned off since the vault had been emptied.

[netsirk]

that's a good point about traitor goblins. although, judging from the conversations in book 5 - it sounds like all goblins are not thrilled with their rights and the way the MoM runs things.

perhaps voldemort/quirrel tried a different way of braking into the vault other than by stroking the door. they could have set off an alarm of some sort, or even maybe just a trace that they were there.

[Rising Phoenix]

That actually brings up another question. When Sirius got Harry his Firebolt, he said that he got someone to take the money out of his vault for him. Surely the security has its holes....or else this withdrawl would have led those in the bank right to him...

[Sturgis Podmore]

yeah but remember mrs weasley could get money out for harry couldnt she to get him stuff from diagon ally. That would suggest that u only need there key!!!

[dumbledore150]

i think that you just need the key for the vault that you want to take money out of to be able to access it.

In PS, the goblin wasn't going to let harry and hagrid go to harrys vault if they didn't have the key

[Sturgis Podmore]

very true and i agree, but why would someone(a goblin) have let quirrel into the vault??

[riley5825]

wow....thats a good point!

[dumbledore150]

quirrell could have tried to forge a letter from dumbledore to let him into the vault containing the philosophers stone. But then, a goblin would have been with him and known he was trying to break in.

Does anyone know if polyjuice potion would change a wizard into a goblin?

[netsirk]

yeah but remember mrs weasley could get money out for harry couldnt she to get him stuff from diagon ally. That would suggest that u only need there key!!!
or authorization. i think when sirius bought the firebolt, he had crookshanks deliver the orderform and told the quidditch store/broomstick maker to take the money out of the vault.

sounds like a debit card. if you want to buy something at the store, you must only give them your account number. but if you want to get cash, you need the pin (like a key)

[FredWeasleyJr]

maybe since the vault was emptied it was left unlocked, but then you wouldnt know whether or not someone tried to get in...maybe it was just a flaw by JKR

[Aramina]

Well, 713 was a high security vault, right? Maybe they had put special alarms or something on it that would go off if anyone other than a Gringotts goblin tried to open it. It did contain the Sorcerer's Stone, after all, and that's a bit more important and valuable than a pile of gold. Don't really know, though; that's an extremely tricky question.

[netsirk]

do you think that the goblins know exactly what is in each vault>
i had the understanding they were like safe-deposit boxes in a way - not the goblins business what is inside

do you think wizard gold garners interest like muggle money in banks?

[rock_ally]

Good question, i have no idea.

[RyuKid]

I think the wizard who broke in was powerful enough to beat the magical security. The goblins noticed signs of attempter break-in and figured someone had tried to break in.
Ya I think that too. Many of the DE's are very powerful and/or have connections. Also probably when the goblins were opening a different vault (close to vault 716) they noticed something unusial about vault 716 (like the door was left open, broken, had a hole in it etc...)

[padfootgrim]

maybe dumbledore tipped them off to check it : /

[morgan le fay]

Does anyone know if polyjuice potion would change a wizard into a goblin?

i dont think itd work. it seems like you have to be the same species as the person/creature which you are attempting to assume the form of, seeing as hermione accidentally and unsuccessfully turned into a splice of half cat/half human.

perhaps there are other methods of attempted-break-in besides tracing your finger over the door to open the vault. :huh:
i.e. shouting spells at the door, trying explosives fred&george style, putting a goblin under imperious curse, etc.

[netsirk]

given voldemort's skills and power - is it possible he could a) try to physically possess or b) try mind-control on a goblin to attempt to have them, not necessarily willingly, open the vault?

[dumbledore150]

I never thought about putting a goblin under the imperius curse.

if he was able to squeeze into the vault, how would he have got the stone out of it if was actually in there?

[filius]

It is possible to break into gringotts but it is nearly impossible to get out. Also, there might be some curses that might play into effect if you break into some vaults. Dark magic is very diverse.

[dumbledore150]

how did voldemort/quirrell manage to get out?

[filius]

I didn't realise they even got in! But i think that REALLY strong dark magic could open the vault, just maybe though.

[dumbledore150]

they could have used the charm that harry learns when he is preparing for the maze in GoF which can blast solid objects out of the way. I don't know if this would work, it's just an idea.

[netsirk]

let's not underestimate the charms and curses that gringotts uses.
supposedly all of their vaults are protected, and some are HIGHLY protected

the attempted theft, if i remember correctly, is the first attempted break-in ever.

i don't think simple charms would do the trick to get in - i think we're talking about more advanced magic

[Sturgis Podmore]

hmm its difficult because i reckon only a few of the top Goblins knew about the stone being in the vault, so how did Lv know it was there! i doubt DD or flamel would have gone shouting it out! there could there be a goblin thats turned to the dark side and maybe left the vault open, man there is soo many possible theorys!!!

[netsirk]

quirrel knew that the stone was being moved to hogwarts b.c he was one of the teacher's protecting it. the vault at gringots could have been an "easy target" for LV if, for instance, the vault was: 1 of a few highly protected vaults; dumbledore's vault, flamel's vault, or one reserved for hogwarts business.

it's possible that LV or Quirrel were watching/listening to hagrid and harry. if you remember that day in the leaky cauldron, quirrel was at the bar - he could have "tailed" them and overheard or saw the paper with the vault on it.

[LadyDeathEater]

Here is another something I was wondering about recently:

Someone tried to break into Gringotts vault 713, on July 31st, after Hagrid and Harry had already emptied it.

When Griphook took Harry and Hagrid to vault 713, he opened it with his long finger and said that if anyone but a Gringott's goblin tried to open it, they would be sucked inside and trapped there. Harry asked Griphook how often they checked to see if anyone was in there and Griphook replied to him "About once every ten years."

So, how did they know that someone had tried to break into that vault if they only check it every 10 years?

There apparently wasn't someone trapped in there or else they would have the culprit in custody.

How would someone get to that vault in the first place if it wasn't in one of those rail cars with a Gringott goblin?

Can you apparate inside of Gringott's? That wouldn't be very safe I wouldn't think. I wouldn't think you could.
You you a really good point. I never mused on that!! And by the way: hey. i'm new here...mabey we can buds?

[DerHalfBlood]

do you think that the goblins know exactly what is in each vault?
i had the understanding they were like safe-deposit boxes in a way - not the goblins business what is inside

I'd say this is definately true. The goblins probably didn't know exactly what was in the vault but that it was important (or were paid much extra for a better vault). There's also no question that Voldemort probably either used or had somebody else use his magic. His magic would be strong enough to get in and not be trapped I'd believe even if it were through Professor Quirrel.

[Windstar]

There would have to be some sort of "evidence" of a break in. What kind would there be? If only a Gringott's goblin could open that door how would they know anyone tried to get in?

I would think thrre were all kinds of security measures not only on this vault but on the entire Gringotts facility. Isn't it as safe as Hogwarts or better? Or was that the only place safer than Gringotts is Hogwarts? Either way, I still don't understand how they knew there was an attempted break in if no one was in the vault?

[Elf]

Okay I noticed something really weird...

The Philosopher's Stone was kept in vault number 713.

In the letter Sirius sends Harry telling him that the Firebolt was a gift from him, he mentions that his own vault is 711.

Doesn't this seem weird that there is only one vault in between? What I want to know is: who owns vault number 712?

It seemed really odd to me that Sirius would make a point of mentioning his vault number to Harry. It seemed very out of place in a heartfelt letter.

Apparently there is a theory that the number 12 is significant, so how about 712?

I just have a hunch it's important because I don't see any reason for JKR to include such an unnecessary detail as Sirius' vault number. Any ideas on this one?

[dumbledore150]

vault 712 could be like 12 grimmauld place. You need to be told where it is by a secret keeper. Unlikely though.

712 could be dumbledores vault, or even voldemorts vault.

If it was Voldemorts, quirrell could have got into gringotts pretending to get money out of his own vault, and instead kills the goblin who showed them down, and attempts to open 713.

just an idea.

[Kimmetje]

"it's possible that LV or Quirrel were watching/listening to hagrid and harry. if you remember that day in the leaky cauldron, quirrel was at the bar - he could have "tailed" them and overheard or saw the paper with the vault on it."

This seems reasonable. I like the thought!

[dumbledore150]

If quirrell tailed them, he would have known that they were taking the stone out. Why then did he go in later on to try to get it?

[filius]

If quirrell tailed them, he would have known that they were taking the stone out. Why then did he go in later on to try to get it?

Good point. Also, how could he tail them? He didn't have a cart. Hagrid took up too much place for quirell to fit!

[dumbledore150]

is it possible to apparate in gringotts?

There could be a spell that makes you weightless. If quirrell did this, he would have been able to sit on one of them without their knowledge.

[filius]

I think gringotts has a spell like the one at Hogwarts where you cannot apparate/disapparate. But i don't think JK would write about the weigtless thing. It seems far too complicated and JK would have given small hints like "the sleeve of Harry's shirt was not ruffling even when they were speeding down a deep tunnel" because quirell was sitting on him blocking the wind. ALSO, IF HE WAS WEIGHTLESS, HE WOULD HAVE FLEW OFF THE CART AS THEY SPED AROUND THE TUNNELS!

[dumbledore150]

HE WOULD HAVE FLEW OFF THE CART AS THEY SPED AROUND THE TUNNELS!

oh yeah. never thought about that. Didn't really think the idea through.

I don't think it was possible for quirell to tail them. If he had somehow followed them, he would have known that they had emptied vault 713 and not bothered to go down later to try to get the stone.

[netsirk]

Okay I noticed something really weird...

The Philosopher's Stone was kept in vault number 713.

In the letter Sirius sends Harry telling him that the Firebolt was a gift from him, he mentions that his own vault is 711.

Doesn't this seem weird that there is only one vault in between? What I want to know is: who owns vault number 712?

It seemed really odd to me that Sirius would make a point of mentioning his vault number to Harry. It seemed very out of place in a heartfelt letter.

Apparently there is a theory that the number 12 is significant, so how about 712?

I just have a hunch it's important because I don't see any reason for JKR to include such an unnecessary detail as Sirius' vault number. Any ideas on this one?

that's a great catch

if gringotts vaults are "family" (the weasley vault, the potter vault, etc), and the blacks are an old line - i would expect 712 would be another old wizarding family or institution

oh yeah. never thought about that. Didn't really think the idea through.

I don't think it was possible for quirell to tail them. If he had somehow followed them, he would have known that they had emptied vault 713 and not bothered to go down later to try to get the stone.

that's true. i wasn't thinking right...

but what if he knew, from tailing at hogwarts, where the stone was and that it was to be moved again.

quirrell was after all the dada prof and was in league to help protect it

the other thing is, that if you read the original manuscript (see eggs on jkr's website) the ps/ss was originally intended to be found in harry's vault...

[filius]

He knew about the whereabouts of the stone because he was asked to protect it not because he was tailing people around at Hogwarts...

[netsirk]

He knew about the whereabouts of the stone because he was asked to protect it not because he was tailing people around at Hogwarts...

he for sure knew where it was at hogwarts

the question here is about the break-in

i don't see any reason why he would know what vault it was in, unless he was spying at hogwarts or tailing at gringotts

[filius]

yeah, maybe Hagrid let it slip to him accidentily. They met him at the leaky cauldron. When Hagrid said that he had bussiness (i forgot the quote) Quirell must have known what he was reffering to.

[netsirk]

someone above (quick looked and didn't see it but i know it's there) made a good point though that if quirell knew that they were going to gringotts to get the stone, he would not have attempted to break in after it had already been removed

unless he didn't know when hagrid was going to get it and just assumed that they (harry and hagrid) were only in diagon alley to do some shopping

[Windstar]

Voldemort surely knew where the Sorcerer's Stone was being kept. He would be able to find out pretty easily considering he can tell when someone is not telling the truth and I'm pretty sure he is able to read minds. He is pretty resourceful and knowledgeable and I feel certain he discovered where the stone was being stored.

[Adalbert Waffling]

Ah yes. Voldemort could read minds. He would have perhaps read Hagrids mind in the pub, and known they were going to withdraw the stone.

[Windstar]

But Voldemort wasn't in Professor Quirrell's head until he started wearing the turbin in Hogwarts. He wasn't in the back of Professor Quirrell's head when Hagrid and Harry were in the pub.

[cableguy]

I don't have a book near me, but wasn't Quirrell wearing the oversized turban in the Leaky Cauldron the day Harry met him with Hagrid? I remember a bit of a description of Quirrell in there somewhere.

Also, I thought Quirrell had already had his experience with vampires(Voldemort) by that meeting maybe over his summer holiday?

Quirrell, since he was a professor and one of the protectors of the Stone, would have known the stone was about to be brought to the school. All he needed was the vault number, and was waiting for Hagrid to turn up so that Voldemort could read in his mind. Not realizing the Hagrid's first stop would be Gringott's to get Harry's money, he waited until the coast was clear and managed to get to the vault.
I think he just asked to get to vault 713, found it empty, blasted the goblin out of anger, and managed to get out without being caught.

I think I may have caught something else. On JK's web site, the calendar for today/wizard of the month gives the date as 25/7. Harry's birthday is 31/7/. Vault 713. hmmmm. :huh:

[netsirk]

Ah yes. Voldemort could read minds. He would have perhaps read Hagrids mind in the pub, and known they were going to withdraw the stone.

snape tells harry how many times that you can not read minds...voldemort is very skilled at knowing feelings and if you are telling the truth - but the mind is not a book

I don't have a book near me, but wasn't Quirrell wearing the oversized turban in the Leaky Cauldron the day Harry met him with Hagrid? I remember a bit of a description of Quirrell in there somewhere.

Also, I thought Quirrell had already had his experience with vampires(Voldemort) by that meeting maybe over his summer holiday?

Quirrell, since he was a professor and one of the protectors of the Stone, would have known the stone was about to be brought to the school. All he needed was the vault number, and was waiting for Hagrid to turn up so that Voldemort could read in his mind. Not realizing the Hagrid's first stop would be Gringott's to get Harry's money, he waited until the coast was clear and managed to get to the vault.
I think he just asked to get to vault 713, found it empty, blasted the goblin out of anger, and managed to get out without being caught.

I think I may have caught something else. On JK's web site, the calendar for today/wizard of the month gives the date as 25/7. Harry's birthday is 13/7/. Vault 713. hmmmm. :huh:

i thought harry's birthday was the 31st of july?

and if quirrell knew the stone was going to be brought back - well then, i guess he didn't look into hagrid's mind b/c then he would have seen that he was on a mission

[Windstar]

Quirrell was not wearing the turban the first time Harry met him in the Leaky Cauldron. Not in the book anyway. In the movie, Professor Quirrell was wearing the turban the first time they met.

I agree that Professor Quirrell was working with Voldemort when he first met Harry, but Voldemort was not residing in the back of Quirrell's head at that time.

And, since Professor Quirrell would have known that the stone was being transferred from Gringott's to Hogwarts, why would he have had to try to steal it before it was relocated into the school?

I don't remember a goblin being blasted at all. I don't have any idea how the goblins at Gringotts knew that vault 713 had an attempt at a break in. What kind of evidence did they find that made them suspicious? How would someone have gotten down to the vault to try the break in?

Harry's birthday is on July 31, just like my dogs birthday!! Cool, eh? But I can see how 31 and 13 could get mixed up.

Snape does tell Harry that you can't read minds - a mind is not a book. But Harry is able to see into Professor Snape's mind and vice versa. Voldemort at the time of the Sorcerer's Stone, was not very strong. He was still weak. So, I don't think he would have been able to see into Hagrid's mind even if he had been residing in the back of Professor Quirrelll's (which he wasn't) head at the pub.