CoSForums Archive - SPOILERS: Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince Discussion v4

Jessica

July 15th, 2004, 10:57 pm

New thread, fresh start:

Please read this post thouroughly before posting. It sums up everything we've decided on in the first three threads. (major thanks to kayah et al for this post)

INITIAL CRITERIA FOR TESTING CANDIDATE PLAUSIBILITY:
1. Are they male?
2. Are they half blood (although there is still some debate as to JKR’s meaning of this)?
3. How could they be a prince?
4. Did they appear in book 2?
5. Is there a storyline plot for them?

ELIMINATED
• Harry Potter --- NOT POSSIBLE PER JKR WEBSITE
• Voldemort --- NOT POSSIBLE PER JKR WEBSITE
• Dudley Dursley --- OUT OF THE RUNNING PER CoS - "DURSLEYS HAD NOT A DROP OF MAGICAL BLOOD IN THEM”
• Draco Malfoy --- NOT POSSIBLE PER JKR WEBSITE - SAYS HE IS A PUREBLOOD
• Theodore Nott --- NOT POSSIBLE PER JKR WEBSITE - SAYS HE IS A PUREBLOOD
• Colin Creevey/Dennis Creevey --- MUGGLE BORN AS EVIDENCED BY ATTACK BY BASILISK (only attacked muggle borns)
• Lockhart --- generally felt as too ludicrous
• Lee Jordan – generally felt as not possible
• Lupin --- generally agreed he was meant for book 3
• Justin Finch Fletchley: NOT POSSIBLE. MUGGLE BORN PER CoS.

THE CANDIDATES
SNAPE
For: His character obviously has a lot in store
Against: Unlikely a death eater would be a half-blood
Conclusion: POSSIBLE

HAGRID
For: he seems to have nearly all the creatures in the forest respect. He could be a leader of the creatures for the light side; we learn a lot about his past in Book 2; Giant’s although violent, may still have royalty (Royalty can exist without it being acknowledged)
Against: Giants may not have royalty; He already has a big part;
Conclusion: POSSIBLE

A NEW CHARACTER
For: All book titles so far have been about someone/thing new
Against: It was a possible title for Book 2; some claim JKR said there would be no new characters in the final book
Conclusion: POSSIBLE

DOBBY
For: We don’t know if he is halfbreed/blood
Against: He seems to have little respect amongst other elves since he was freed (but he still could be a prince);
Conclusion: POSSIBLE

DUMBLEDORE
For: We know little about his background;
Against: He already has large role;
Conclusion: ?

DUNG
For:
Against:
Conclusion:

GODRIC GRYFFINDOR
For: A lot of mention towards legend in the whole series; lots of references to Godric (Hollow, colour of stars, the sword); had prominent mention in book 2; as a founder of a school could possibly be a prince
Against: Side-argument as to whether Harry is his heir; too much past-focussed and not forward-moving for the story;
Conclusion: VERY POSSIBLE

SALAZAR SLYTHERIN
For: Likely to be pureblood, but remember Tom Riddle
Against:
Conclusion: POSSIBLE

SEAMUS
For: He is also a half-blood said in the first book.
Against: He just doesn't seem like a Prince(A weak response I know)
Conclusion: POSSIBLE

DEAN
For: He is a half-blood said on J.K.'s site. Which puts him in the running
Against:Practically his whole history was put on her site, which tends to suggest that it's not that important. Also said his story was sacrificed for Neville's.
Conclusion: POSSIBLE

TOM RIDDLE
For: Book 2 could very easily have been called HBP and had little story change; lots of debate over whether he is the same or different person to Voldemort; JKR could be 'pulling a Dobby’ regarding his identity; he is male and half-blood;
Against: Many simply disbelieve the ‘split-personality’ theory
Conclusion: RELUCTANTLY A POSSIBILITY AND STILL HIGHLY DEBATED

This post will be updated (by all of us) as further information is added. :)

Let's get going :)

Theodorre

July 15th, 2004, 11:00 pm

Why start over?

Elder Granger

July 15th, 2004, 11:01 pm

I am reposting my argument here... For clarity's sake of course.. (Everyone close your eyes, while she ever so subtly adds the word, relatively.)

I am of the opinion that Dean Thomas is the Half-Blood Prince... This may be boring for those of you who have been with this thread from the beginning because my arguments haven't changed... But, that is because no one has given me any reason to change them... Muahahaha!

OK... So, we know Dean is a half-blood... We know that this information was intended for CoS... We also know that the title Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince was intended for CoS... Coincidence, I think not (this argument is slightly weakened for me now that someone used it in support of Nearly-Headless Nick, I mean really, but, alas, I trudge onward)... Although Dean's story was left out of CoS and Jo "think[s] his history will never make it into the books." (www.JKRowling.co.uk in Extra Stuff) this does not negate the fact that he is, in fact, a half-blood... Everything mentioned on Jo's site (obviously sans the fact that Dean is a half-blood) could remain out of the books forever, and he still makes a good candidate for the HBP... We know nothing of his father, save the fact that he left his family so as not to endanger them... Sounds noble to me, and nobility can infer royalty... Now follow me here, cause this even sounds complicated in my head... "Dean's grandfather was a King" was not among the stuff that Jo said will never make it into the books... So, this means absolutely nothing REALLY, but it also means that it is distinctly possible that he WAS a King and that wasn't included in the extrastuff that wont be included in the books because it IS important and WILL be included in the books... You follow... Well, I hope so... Ok, we proceed... Also, in looking at the history of the importance of the "and ..." in the previous 5 titles, they have all been integral yet relatively small things, only mentioned or discovered in a relatively small portion of the book... I think Dean lends himself to playing this role exceptionally well... As one of Harry's roommates and Ginny's new boyfriend he will be more present in this book than others regardless, and I think he is therefore well placed to play the relatively small but integral role that the HBP is slated to play... Also, in the vein of JKR's trickery... I think this fits in nicely with past dealings... All truth, but sublte, kind-hearted misleading... Some house-elf made food for thought...

angel spirit

July 15th, 2004, 11:08 pm

Good points Elder Granger, but here are my reasons why Dean isn't the Half-Blood Prince.

1. Dean's story was sacrificed for Neville's, which was more important to the central plot. If Dean is the title of the sixth book, you think that Dean would be more important than Neville.

2. If there was even a remote chance of Dean being the Half-Blood Prince do you think that J.K. would post his history on the site? If that would have happened with Sirius before the third book, then fans would be utterly pleased at first, but then feel cheated out of the surprise.

3. Dean has so far been an established minor character. He is more signifigant than someone who was mentioned in passing, but doesn't interact with Harry that much. Whoever it is, Harry is still going to be the main character.

Theodorre

July 15th, 2004, 11:08 pm

Because we are not going to speculate wildly about folks who aren't on the list. It narrows things down and focuses the discussion.

Ok, sounds reasonable.

Witflick

July 15th, 2004, 11:16 pm

Well, here are my thoughts on the initial post. I think the list is pretty good though, and I'll comment on my thoughts on some of the characters. :)

INITIAL CRITERIA FOR TESTING CANDIDATE PLAUSIBILITY:
1. Are they male?
2. Are they half blood (although there is still some debate as to JKR’s meaning of this)?
3. How could they be a prince?
4. Did they appear in book 2?
5. Is there a storyline plot for them? I don't think that reasons two and four have to be true in each and every case.

#2: I speculated before (and so did a few other posters, I think that the title Half Blood Prince doesn't necessarily mean that the prince is half blooded. It could also refer to someone who is Prince over the half bloods. If the title were Half Blooded Prince, I think that the meaning would then be clear. While I think that it most likely refers to a half blood, I also think we need to keep in mind that it doesn't necessarily have to be.

#4: Just reiterating a point made before. If JKR decided to change the title of book two from HBP to CoS, I think that a lot of plot could have been changed, and this certain character removed. So I think that while this is a good thing to keep in mind, we should again keep our eyes open.

Overall, though, I think that's a very good criteria to round up some likely suspects.

ELIMINATED
• Harry Potter --- NOT POSSIBLE PER JKR WEBSITE
• Voldemort --- NOT POSSIBLE PER JKR WEBSITE
• Dudley Dursley --- OUT OF THE RUNNING PER CoS - "DURSLEYS HAD NOT A DROP OF MAGICAL BLOOD IN THEM”
• Draco Malfoy --- NOT POSSIBLE PER JKR WEBSITE - SAYS HE IS A PUREBLOOD
• Theodore Nott --- NOT POSSIBLE PER JKR WEBSITE - SAYS HE IS A PUREBLOOD
• Colin Creevey/Dennis Creevey --- MUGGLE BORN AS EVIDENCED BY ATTACK BY BASILISK (only attacked muggle borns)
• Lockhart --- generally felt as too ludicrous
• Lee Jordan – generally felt as not possible
• Lupin --- generally agreed he was meant for book 3 I don't think we can eliminate Lupin on that basis. I think that we can just as easily say that Tom Riddle was meant for book two, but he is still in consideration. I think that Lupin should at least stay in consideration.

I'm a little wary of Dudley Dursley also, because of the whole "magic late in life" thing, but I suppose that if someone were to do magic late in life, they'd have to have at least a little wizarding blood in them.

EDIT: ComicBookWorm made some good points so I think Dudley can be safely eliminated.

SNAPE
For: His character obviously has a lot in store
Against: Unlikely a death eater would be a half-blood
Conclusion: POSSIBLE I believe that if Snape was a half-blood and hated his muggle lineage just like Voldemort did, he could have been accepted into the Dark Lord's ranks. Plus, he's excellent at Potions, which may have been a valuable skill, especially since Voldemort was chasing immortality.

HAGRID
For: he seems to have nearly all the creatures in the forest respect. He could be a leader of the creatures for the light side; we learn a lot about his past in Book 2; Giant’s although violent, may still have royalty (Royalty can exist without it being acknowledged)
Against: Giants may not have royalty; He already has a big part;
Conclusion: POSSIBLE Originally I was all for it being Hagrid, and a part of me still thinks it might be. I suppose prince would have to be in a figurative sense then. It's true about him already having a big part throughout all the books, but I think that if Hagrid were the prince, he would be the best character to "unite" a group against Voldemort.

DUMBLEDORE
For: We know little about his background;
Against: He already has large role;
Conclusion: ? I think Dumbledore's role is quite large already and for him to be the HBP would make him seem way too important.

GODRIC GRYFFINDOR
For: A lot of mention towards legend in the whole series; lots of references to Godric (Hollow, colour of stars, the sword); had prominent mention in book 2; as a founder of a school could possibly be a prince
Against: Side-argument as to whether Harry is his heir; too much past-focussed and not forward-moving for the story;
Conclusion: VERY POSSIBLE I agree with you, I think this is very possible. I would love to get some more information on the sword and more history on the founding of Hogwarts.

SEAMUS
For: He is also a half-blood said in the first book.
Against: He just doesn't seem like a Prince(A weak response I know)
Conclusion: POSSIBLE The against reason may be weak but I agree with it. I'll bet a thousand galleons he's not the HBP.

DEAN
For: He is a half-blood said on J.K.'s site. Which puts him in the running
Against:Practically his whole history was put on her site, which tends to suggest that it's not that important. Also said his story was sacrificed for Neville's.
Conclusion: POSSIBLE angel_spirit summed up my thoughts on that subject.

TOM RIDDLE
For: Book 2 could very easily have been called HBP and had little story change; lots of debate over whether he is the same or different person to Voldemort; JKR could be 'pulling a Dobby’ regarding his identity; he is male and half-blood;
Against: Many simply disbelieve the ‘split-personality’ theory
Conclusion: RELUCTANTLY A POSSIBILITY AND STILL HIGHLY DEBATED I think it's possible, but I'm starting to think that Tom's role was done by book two. I think choices like Gryffindor, Snape, Hagrid, and even Lupin are far more likely.

Witflick.

Elder Granger

July 15th, 2004, 11:17 pm

1. Dean's story was sacrificed for Neville's, which was more important to the central plot. If Dean is the title of the sixth book, you think that Dean would be more important than Neville.

3. Dean has so far been an established minor character. He is more signifigant than someone who was mentioned in passing, but doesn't interact with Harry that much. Whoever it is, Harry is still going to be the main character.

1. But Neville's importance has been established and he is continuing to grow. (There is obviously still more to speculate on about Neville, but you get my point.) Dean as the title doesn't necessarily need to surpass Neville in importance... And, a subtle, but important distinction... Neville's journey of discovery was deemed more important, not his character...

3. I think you contradict yourself here... It is BECAUSE Dean is a minor but growing character that I think he is a good candidate... If Dumbledore for instance (my apologies to all the DD is the HBP supporters out there) was the HBP he would obviously be playing an even larger role than he already is, in the meantime eclipsing Harry.

2. (I know I deleted this from the quote, but, I thought of a response now, sorry.) The fact that this info is on Jo's site is insignificant, there could be SO much more that she could have to tell us about Dean if he were the HBP... Lets use Sirius as an example... On the back cover of PoA it says the this escaped lunatic of a prisoner is after Harry... One might think that is something that could be left for the actual book, but, it was unnecessary because there was so much more going on.

Witflick

July 15th, 2004, 11:21 pm

Jessica

July 15th, 2004, 11:23 pm

Bear in mind everyone that the initial list was a group collaboration as will be all future lists.

I'd like to re-post the list every page or so with our group agreed upon updates so new people will have easy access to what is "established".

Also if Theodorre and CBW would mind deleting their off topic posts for thread clarity that would be great :)

ComicBookWorm

July 15th, 2004, 11:25 pm

Witflick. Not Dudley. Here is the JKR quote. Barnes and Noble Interview March 1999
In my books, magic almost always shows itself in a person before age 11; however, there is a character who does manage in desperate circumstances to do magic quite late in life, but that is very rare in the world I am writing about.

Dudley isn't rather late in life. I would suspect either of our resident squibs: Arabella Figg or Argus Filch. I vote for Figg so I say Dudley is irrelevant in this list as others have assumed.

Witflick

July 15th, 2004, 11:29 pm

Not Dudley. Here is the JKR quote. Barnes and Noble Interview March 1999

Dudley isn't rather late in life. I would suspect either of our resident squibs: Arabella Figg or Argus Filch. I vote for Figg so I say Dudley is irrelevant in this list. That's a good point.

Also, to clarify, I'm not trying to bash the list or anything, just giving opinions on it. :)

Witflick.

angel spirit

July 15th, 2004, 11:31 pm

1. But Neville's importance has been established and he is continuing to grow. (There is obviously still more to speculate on about Neville, but you get my point.) Dean as the title doesn't necessarily need to surpass Neville in importance... And, a subtle, but important distinction... Neville's journey of discovery was deemed more important, not his character...

But this book is supposed to have taken place all in the past. I think when she is referring to "Neville's Story", she is referring to his part in the series.

3. I think you contradict yourself here... It is BECAUSE Dean is a minor but growing character that I think he is a good candidate... If Dumbledore for instance (my apologies to all the DD is the HBP supporters out there) was the HBP he would obviously be playing an even larger role than he already is, in the meantime eclipsing Harry.

But minor characters have never been sprung into major characters. The people that become somebody are either passing references or entirely new characters.

2. (I know I deleted this from the quote, but, I thought of a response now, sorry.) The fact that this info is on Jo's site is insignificant, there could be SO much more that she could have to tell us about Dean if he were the HBP... Lets use Sirius as an example... On the back cover of PoA it says the this escaped lunatic of a prisoner is after Harry... One might think that is something that could be left for the actual book, but, it was unnecessary because there was so much more going on.

I'd like to bring up what Witflick excellently mentioned a post ago. She had started the site after the fifth book when she was outlining and starting the sixth book. Therefore she should have a pretty good idea of who the title is going to be.

TexAnn

July 15th, 2004, 11:32 pm

I know that there are those out there who think that it would be boring if Dumbledore ends up being the HBP, but all the same I think that there are a number of reasons why it will be Dumbledore.

1. In CoS it's Harry's loyality to Dumbledore that calles Fawkes and GG's sword to him. Also in Cos, is the first that there is really a distinction made between Half-Blood and Pure Blood, and I think it's interesting that no reference to any of the older characters is made.

2. Dumbledore, even if he isn't Half-Blood, has always been a "Prince" to half-bloods as well as part humans. (ie. Hagrid, Lupin, Firenze) Also, he has an interest in muggle life; he likes muggle candy that most wizards wouldn't have heard of.

Lastly, and I think this is the important one, I don't think that who the HBP is, is going to be the focus of book six. If we think back to the titles of all the other books; in PS we know what the PS is but the key is who is after it. In CoS, we know about the Cos, but it's who has opened it that becomes the issue. In PoA, from the very beggining we know who the PoA is, but that isn't the whole story. I think that it will be the same in HBP. I think that who ever the HBP is that they are going to show themselves early in the book and the key will be how they can help Harry defeat LV. I could be wrong, but I think that the person that knows most about LV weaknesses and about defeating him will be Dumbledore, or someone that we haven't met and there would be know way to guess.

starlette01350

July 15th, 2004, 11:36 pm

Thought I'd just re-submiy my post from the old thread- I hope noone minds.

I still really think GG is the HBP.
Here's why:
a. HBP was an original title for CoS. JKR said that she removed a few details, she didn't change the whole book. For this reason, I believe the HBP is an established character. The few details that were removed could contain crucial information that we do not need or would not understand until later books. If GG is the HBP, the removed information could explain the Sorting Hat, the founding of Hogwarts, etc...
b. At the end of CoS, Fawkes helped to save Harry by bringing him the Sorting Hat, which belonged to GG. Harry then pulled Gryffindor's sword out of the hat. Isn't strange that the only explanation we recieved is, 'It would take a true Gryffindor to pull that out of a hat?'
c. JKR has stated that she will not need to write a series of prequels because everything will be explained in books 6 and 7. Why create an entirely new character or storyline while having to explain the history of Hogwarts, Voldemort, and James and Lily? It seems like this is a lot to cram into two books.
d. Now that the second war is starting, isn't it important to understand the history behind the pure-blood/'mud-blood' battles? As far as we know, this fight originated between SS and GG, two good friends. GG stood up for the non-pure-bloods, making him almost a leader or protector of them (HBP). I think the background on SS and GG will be important, as it will help the story to come full circle.
e. It would seem a little strange to me if Dean or Seamus, who have had minor roles in the previous books, suddenly popped up and said, "Hello Harry, did I mention I'm royalty/a major character?" Seems a little far-fetched to me. I think it's important to keep in mind what's currently happening (Voldemort has recently returned to power and is a major threat.) How would making these characters the HBP further the plot?

Anyway, those are just my thoughts, sorry if I wrote too much. Feel free to butcher any of my theories!

Another interesting thing to keep in mind is the meanings of the word 'prince.' According to dictionary.com, a prince can be royalty or an outstanding man, especially in a specific class. Hope this helps, happy sleuthing!

angel spirit

July 15th, 2004, 11:48 pm

I still really think GG is the HBP.
Here's why:
. HBP was an original title for CoS. JKR said that she removed a few details, she didn't change the whole book. For this reason, I believe the HBP is an established character. The few details that were removed could contain crucial information that we do not need or would not understand until later books. If GG is the HBP, the removed information could explain the Sorting Hat, the founding of Hogwarts, etc...

But the question is really, "Why did she think that the book's proper home was book 6?" Why did she move it? She must've had an idea that something in Book 5 could lead up to it. What major events happened in Book 5 that made it the predecessor to this information? Sirius's death? The revealing of the order? Any thoughts?

b. At the end of CoS, Fawkes helped to save Harry by bringing him the Sorting Hat, which belonged to GG. Harry then pulled Gryffindor's sword out of the hat. Isn't strange that the only explanation we recieved is, 'It would take a true Gryffindor to pull that out of a hat?'

I think the main reason that Dumbledore said that was to give reassurance to Harry that he is a true Gryffindor. Dumbledore could probably sense that being related to Tom Riddle was not a happy thought for Harry and wanted to drive it from Harry's mind. The Sorting Hat was Gryffindor's originally, but it really has the personality of all four founders, probably with their own types of weapons.

c. JKR has stated that she will not need to write a series of prequels because everything will be explained in books 6 and 7. Why create an entirely new character or storyline while having to explain the history of Hogwarts, Voldemort, and James and Lily? It seems like this is a lot to cram into two books.

She also said she would include an epilogue explaining all of the loose ends. This could mean she puts everything we want to know at the end and concentrate on the Harry/Voldemort conflict in the story.

d. Now that the second war is starting, isn't it important to understand the history behind the pure-blood/'mud-blood' battles? As far as we know, this fight originated between SS and GG, two good friends. GG stood up for the non-pure-bloods, making him almost a leader or protector of them (HBP). I think the background on SS and GG will be important, as it will help the story to come full circle.

There was most likely a conflict before Gryffindor and Slytherin were even born. If Gryffindor is in fact the Half-Blood Prince, how would he help Harry? All of the titles have been things that have interacted with him also.

e. It would seem a little strange to me if Dean or Seamus, who have had minor roles in the previous books, suddenly popped up and said, "Hello Harry, did I mention I'm royalty/a major character?" Seems a little far-fetched to me. I think it's important to keep in mind what's currently happening (Voldemort has recently returned to power and is a major threat.) How would making these characters the HBP further the plot?

I agree with you on Seamus and Dean, they would make the plot weak and uninteresting, because it would be a shock of information of us. In the second book, Tom Riddle being Voldemort makes sense. It's not a randomness like a Dean/Seamus "I'm the Half-Blood Prince"

Postingly,

Angel Spirit

Cine

July 15th, 2004, 11:58 pm

What major events happened in Book 5 that made it the predecessor to this information?

The prophecy, don't you think? That would be a major thing that would not come before late, as Dumbledore thought Harry should not hear it before he was old enough.

Sirius might of course also have something to do with it, JKR did after all say something about that it would happen anyway in her FAQ section, because it had to happen.

ComicBookWorm

July 16th, 2004, 12:00 am

Here is the case for GG

1. If he is half blood or even the champion of half bloods then it shows how deep and how far back the intolerance runs.

2. He could actually be royalty since folks have pointed out how fancy his sword was. He might have been cast out of his home, because he was a wizard. Hence the desire to form a school.

3. There has even been a suggestion that GG and SS are half-brothers--interesting but not needed for GG to be the HBP.

4. If Harry is GG's heir it would explain why the prophecy was about him. It would not take away from Harry's choices in life which made him choose the path of goodness (boy that sounds corny). After all LV chose the path of evil. They're both orphans who had bad childhoods who went in different directions with their lives.

5. We are going to find out something big about Lily. They keep going on about her green eyes (and Harry's) maybe they find a picture of GG with those exact eyes. 1000 years is a long time, the heritage and the magic lineage could have been lost and forgotten.

6. Backstory on GG could have easily been in CoS, but it shifted focus to Slytherin.

7. Only a "true Gryffindor" could have pulled the sword from the hat. Fawkes, who might have been Gryffindor's pet, and the hat, and the sword show up just when Harry needs them.

8. If Harry inherits his magic and his heritage from his muggle side, it adds ironic symmetry to the ongoing pureblood intolerance.

9. If Lily is a GG heir, it would give us a better explanation as to why LV's AK backfired so when he tried it on her. Maybe there is special protection or resistance to unforgivable curses. Harry has thrown off Crucio and Imperio with no practice. Maybe he threw off an AK as a baby as well. It might even explain why LV hesitated before he zapped Lily. He might have known about the heritage and wondered if it would be a problem. That would be the ancient magic.

Here are two interesting passages about GG's sword and Harry:

GoF p. 583 American hardcover. In DD’s office after Harry had fallen asleep in Trelawney’s class and had a dream about Voldemort wanting him dead. Harry is waiting for DD to return to tell him about his scar hurting.
Harry looked up at the walls behind the desk. The patched and ragged Sorting Hat was standing on a shelf. A glass case next to it held a magnificent silver sword with large rubies set into the hilt, which Harry recognized as the one he himself had pulled out of the Sorting Hat in his second year. The sword had once belonged to Godric Gryffindor, founder of Harry’s House. He was gazing at it, remembering how it had come to his aid when he thought all hope was lost, when he noticed a patch of silvery light, dancing and shimmering on the glass case.
This passage is fascinating because Harry has just dreamed about LV ordering his death (by implication) and he remembers how the sword helped him when all hope was lost.

OotP p. 839-840 American hardcover. In DD’s office after the fight at the DoM. DD is explaining that LV was seeking the prophecy.
He set out to kill you when you were still a baby, believing he was fulfilling the terms of the prophecy. He discovered to his cost, that he was mistaken, when the curse intended to kill you backfired. And so, since his return to his body, and particularly since your extraordinary escape from him last year, he has been determined to hear that prophecy in its entirety. This is the weapon he has been seeking so assiduously since his return: the knowledge of how to destroy you.

The sun had risen fully now. Dumbledore’s office was bathed in it. The glass case in which the sword of Godric Gryffindor resided gleamed white and opaque.
This passage is particularly startling because DD is talking about the curse backfiring and LV seeking a weapon while Harry notices the sword.

Both the first passage and second passages go to the trouble of bathing the sword in light. So will Harry use the sword to fight LV? There is the Priori Incantatem problem with the wands.

angel spirit

July 16th, 2004, 12:01 am

The prophecy, don't you think? That would be a major thing that would not come before late, as Dumbledore thought Harry should not hear it before he was old enough.

Sirius might of course also have something to do with it, JKR did after all say something about that it would happen anyway in her FAQ section, because it had to happen.

I left out the Prophecy because I thought it was a solid Harry/Voldemort issue. The prophecy doesn't mention any outside parties except for Harry's parents, who have defeated the Dark Lord three times.

What do you guys think about Snape?

Elder Granger

July 16th, 2004, 12:11 am

Dean can be informed of his lineage without including all the information that is on Jo's site, in fact without including the vast majority of it... And, this would also be how the rest ofthe Harry Potter reading public found out... The info on Jo's site, would just be extra, as it already is, for us particularly dedicated fans... The fact that she already knew who the HBP was going to be when she created the site doesn't negate Dean at all... That is exactly my point... The only way the fact that Dean Thomas is a half-blood is getting into the last two books is if there is a whole lot more to it, ie- that he is also a prince...
As for the growth of a minor character, what about Aunt Petunia... She is slated to grow a great deal... And the non-magic one who will discover their powers later in life... None of the candidates for that are what could be considered major characters...

I know this is just as much specualtion as any other possibility, but I love this back and forth... It allows you to flesh out a theory so well... Thanks!

Sadly, I must part... Boo on no Internet access at home...

pegoheart144

July 16th, 2004, 12:57 am

What major events happened in Book 5 that made it the predecessor to this information? I think a major event from Book 5 that could play out more fully in the next book stems from the Sorting Hat's song and its warning that the school needs to stand together. We saw a little of this happening as the DA took form.

We need to find out more about the conflict between SS and GG. When did the rift start? Did it start because GG was a half-blood or was he merely the champion of half-bloods? It seems to be a definite possibility. :huh:

starlette01350

July 16th, 2004, 12:57 am

Angel Spirit: Great counterpoints! I'll attempt to answer them as best as I can, although I'm not sure I can answer all of them.

I think the reason its proper home is in book six is because the second war is about to begin. If we look at some of Voldemort's motivations for the war, such as destroying mudbloods, they closer parallel those of SS. As far as we know, this fight originated between SS and GG (it could go farther back but JKR has never said). I think explaining the background would be a nice way to bring the story full circle.

This part is a little complicated to explain, I'm sorry if I don't make much sense. In my head, there are three main time periods in the Harry Potter series. There's the present, in which Harry and his friends are in school; the time of James, Lily, the original Order, and Voldemort the first time around; and the time of the founding of Hogwarts. I think the songs of the Sorting Hat have served to draw attention to the founding of the school and to tie it into the present. In order to fully understand the Second War, I think we need to have a better understanding of the past and how they relate to the present. Hopefully, that makes some sense. I'm sorry I can't explain it better.

Finally, it could be argued, though vaguely, that GG does interact with Harry. In CoS, when DD is removed from Hogwarts, he tells Harry that, "Help will always be given at Hogwarts to those who ask for it." During Harry's fight Basilisk at the end of CoS, help does come to Harry in the form of the Sorting Hat and the sword, both formerly owned by GG. It can be interpreted that GG comes to Harry's rescue.

I know some of my theories are a bit of a stretch and a little complicated, I'm sorry if I haven't explained them well. I really enjoy discussing the books here, it's a great learning experience. If you don't agree with anything I've said, that's cool, that's what makes debating fun!

ComicBookWorm

July 16th, 2004, 1:05 am

Here is the case for Hagrid

1. He is a half blood (half wizard anyway).

2. He could be the key to bringing the Giants against the DEs.

3. We do not know anything about his father or mother. Giants seem to smash their way to supremacy, so we don't know how Fridwulfa was viewed by them. Rita Skeeter seemed to imply that people would know her name. But Skeeter isn't the most reliable source.

4. He was important to CoS, and it would be easy to see how his backstory could have been expanded.

5. He is friend to many in the Forbidden Forest (except not the Centaurs anymore) and could enlist the aid of the forest creatures if need be.

6. The acromantulas could also assist Hagrid if needed. They would be a terrifying and formidable force.

MoodyMania

July 16th, 2004, 1:26 am

Neddlie

July 16th, 2004, 1:29 am

Maybe Justin Finch-Fletchley or Colin Creevey is the half blood prience.

Witflick

July 16th, 2004, 1:33 am

3. We do not know anything about his father or mother. Giants seem to smash their way to supremacy, so we don't know how Fridwulfa was viewed by them. Rita Skeeter seemed to imply that people would know her name. But Skeeter isn't the most reliable source. I always wondered about that. To my knowledge, Skeeter just referred to her as "the giantess Fridwulfa". I always thought that Fridwulfa had to do something pretty terrible (killing a lot of people, maybe?) for Rita to refer to her like that. But you bring up a good point; perhaps she was famous for being the leader of the Giants in some way? But if the wizarding community had known about it, I can't imagine Hagrid being ignorant to it. Wouldn't Dumbledore, or even Hagrid's father, have sat him down sometime and told him about his mother? Unless Dumbledore had wanted to keep it from Hagrid for a reason. Any thoughts?

EDIT: I've been thinking about this more. If Hagrid had some sort of past that he didn't know about but Dumbledore did, I think the opportune time for Dumbledore to tell him would have been before Hagrid and Madam Maxime left on their mission. Hagrid could have used the information about his mother to sway some giants, possibly. :sigh: I'm confused now.

Witflick.

Jessica

July 16th, 2004, 1:38 am

Maybe Justin Finch-Fletchley or Colin Creevey is the half blood prience.

We eliminated Colin Creevey (see first post of this thread) but Justin isn't on our list.

However, as he is definitively a muggle born we can eliminate him as well

LIST UPDATE:

Justin Finch Fletchley: NOT POSSIBLE. MUGGLE BORN PER CoS.

Mistress Lily

July 16th, 2004, 1:42 am

I think the halfblood prince is somebody we have not met yet. :rotfl:

Ecthelion

July 16th, 2004, 1:49 am

Here's some thoughts....

For those people who believe Dean or other secondary and even less prominent characters will become this "Halfblood Prince", I have a slight problem with that. As a reader, are you truly willing to take a previously unimportant character for six books and suddenly have him/her become an extraordinarily spotlight figure that rivals even Harry? This to me is not plausible both from a writer's perspective and a reader's. It may seem somewhat amicable right now, but you have to remember that these books are called "Harry Potter and the....." Naturally, this book is going to revolve around him in majority. I feel that having another previously secondary character around his age would upset that balance in the books.

As for those of you who are Pro-Hagrid.....it could be possible, I suppose, considering we really do not know who his mother was....after all, she could have been part of some royalty of the giant clans.....However, that to me seems highly unlikely. There is no doubt that Hagrid will play a large part in assisting the second war, with all his wild affiliations with nature and her creatures, though this does not necissarily promote him or enforce the idea of him being the Halfblood Prince.

I myself am leaning towards the HalfBlood Prince being someone we have yet to meet, or another person of Legend/History. Remember, JKR said quite consistantly that the second book was heavily paralleled with the upcoming Sixth book. If you can recall, a large part of the Second book gives us a rare look into wizarding history and shows the ever-present discriminations of wizarding society. Could this half-blood prince be the origination of this "pureblood" fanaticism? I haven't the slightest. But I do think that having a legendary character being the Half-blood prince would not disrupt the main character, Harry, and yet still be smoothly introduced into the plot. After all, there are only two books left, and new characters that play large roles are going to be minimal, as there isn't much time to develop them fully.

Perhaps this Halfblood Prince ties in with the legends of the Founders? Hmm...not sure, but I tend to see theories of that sort as more commendable and plausible then those of contemperary people such as Colin, Dean, and others of the like.

But hey, you never know :)

ComicBookWorm

July 16th, 2004, 1:57 am

I always wondered about that. To my knowledge, Skeeter just referred to her as "the giantess Fridwulfa". I always thought that Fridwulfa had to do something pretty terrible (killing a lot of people, maybe?) for Rita to refer to her like that. But you bring up a good point; perhaps she was famous for being the leader of the Giants in some way? But if the wizarding community had known about it, I can't imagine Hagrid being ignorant to it. Wouldn't Dumbledore, or even Hagrid's father, have sat him down sometime and told him about his mother? Unless Dumbledore had wanted to keep it from Hagrid for a reason. Any thoughts?

EDIT: I've been thinking about this more. If Hagrid had some sort of past that he didn't know about but Dumbledore did, I think the opportune time for Dumbledore to tell him would have been before Hagrid and Madam Maxime left on their mission. Hagrid could have used the information about his mother to sway some giants, possibly. :sigh: I'm confused now.

Witflick.

I'm not a really big Hagrid supporter. I just thought his case needed to be stated. I'm a GG fanatic.

MoodyMania

July 16th, 2004, 1:58 am

I always wondered about that. To my knowledge, Skeeter just referred to her as "the giantess Fridwulfa". I always thought that Fridwulfa had to do something pretty terrible (killing a lot of people, maybe?) for Rita to refer to her like that. But you bring up a good point; perhaps she was famous for being the leader of the Giants in some way? But if the wizarding community had known about it, I can't imagine Hagrid being ignorant to it. Wouldn't Dumbledore, or even Hagrid's father, have sat him down sometime and told him about his mother? Unless Dumbledore had wanted to keep it from Hagrid for a reason. Any thoughts?

Witflick.
Or possibly Skeeter just heard Hagrid telling his story to Madam Maxine and he said his mothers name. That was what I always thought.

RyuKid

July 16th, 2004, 2:01 am

I think its Tom Riddle he played a big role in CoS and was the Heir of the Slytherin (if I was not mistaken). A heir is almost like royalty so he could be the Mudblood Prince
Prince of the Slytherin or something to that effect.

Neddlie

July 16th, 2004, 2:06 am

We eliminated Colin Creevey (see first post of this thread) but Justin isn't on our list.

However, as he is definitively a muggle born we can eliminate him as well

LIST UPDATE:

Justin Finch Fletchley: NOT POSSIBLE. MUGGLE BORN PER CoS.

Hi Jessicacarstens. I'm reading the second book again now and Colin Creevey only talks about his dad that is a milkman, maybe his mom was a witch and Colin and his brother and their dad didn't know. Justin Finch-Fletchley only talked about his mom, maybe his dad was a wizard. Mrs Norris and Nearly Headless Nick was atacked by the Basalisk and they weren't muggle born I think. Was Moaning Myrtle and Penelope Clearwater muggle born?

Jessica

July 16th, 2004, 2:10 am

Hi Jessicacarstens. I'm reading the second book again now and Colin Creevey only talks about his dad that is a milkman, maybe his mom was a witch and Colin and his brother and their dad didn't know. Justin Finch-Fletchley only talked about his mom, maybe his dad was a wizard. Mrs Norris and Nearly Headless Nick was atacked by the Basalisk and they weren't muggle born I think. Was Moaning Myrtle and Penelope Clearwater muggle born?

Well our consensus is that the intended victims (Colin, Justin, Hermione, Myrtle) were in fact muggle borns.

However, secondary victims like Mrs. Norris, Nick and Penelope that were only hit by accident are not necessarily muggle borns :)

(Although Penelope could easily be argued to be an additional target - don't know enough about her)

ComicBookWorm

July 16th, 2004, 2:13 am

Well our consensus is that the intended victims (Colin, Justin, Hermione, Myrtle) were in fact muggle borns.

However, secondary victims like Mrs. Norris, Nick and Penelope that were only hit by accident are not necessarily muggle borns :)

(Although Penelope could easily be argued to be an additional target - don't know enough about her)

Creevey was also running around with a muggle camera. Not ultimate proof, but suspicious.

Neddlie

July 16th, 2004, 2:17 am

Maybe the Half Blood Prince is a ghost like Sir Nick and the Bloody Baron. Maybe the blood on the Bloody Baron is from the Half Blood Prince.

Witflick

July 16th, 2004, 2:19 am

Maybe the Half Blood Prince is a ghost like Sir Nick and the Bloody Baron. Maybe the blood on the Bloody Baron is from the Half Blood Prince. What use could he be as a ghost, though? The only thing I can see is him telling Harry some sort of story (perhaps about Gryffindor) that tells him what he'll need to do to defeat Voldemort. Although, now that I think about it, I suppose that could be pretty useful. :)

Witflick.

Jessica

July 16th, 2004, 2:19 am

Maybe the Half Blood Prince is a ghost like Sir Nick and the Bloody Baron. Maybe the blood on the Bloody Baron is from the Half Blood Prince.

How does everyone feel about this - should we add the ghosts to the list?

Anyone have any pros or cons for them?

ComicBookWorm

July 16th, 2004, 2:21 am

How does everyone feel about this - should we add the ghosts to the list?

Anyone have any pros or cons for them?

Are any of them called "Your Majesty"?

MoodyMania

July 16th, 2004, 2:22 am

Jo did say that we won't find out until the last book why wizards become ghosts. So maybe there is something she wants to hide about ghostly abilities.

Jessica

July 16th, 2004, 2:23 am

Are any of them called "Your Majesty"?

Well it should actually be your highness :lol:

I would vote against the Baron and Sir Nicholas because we already know their titles. And the fat friar being a friar is unlikely to be a prince.

So I think we can safely add them all to our eliminated list.

Puchula

July 16th, 2004, 2:24 am

3.How could they be a prince?

I think it was a great idea to start over, it was to confusing. Sorry I´m posting this so late but I´ve been studying the hole day and didn´t had time to log in. All I want to say is that as many people has pointed out the use of the word "prince" doesn´t have to mean that he is connected with royalty, he can be a prince because he´s loyal, a good leader, honorable, etc. If you all agree maybe we can add this to the "instructions". What do you say?

Now I´m going to put myself up to date by making some comments on some posts I´ve read:

What major events happened in Book 5 that made it the predecessor to this information?

Maybe the HBP didn´t make it into the 2nd book because the story wasn´t "mature" enough for him. By mature I mean that maybe the problem is not what happend before but what´s going to happen after. I´m not sure I´m making myself clear but I can´t seem to find the proper words to describe my thoughts.

What I want to say is that there is a chance that JK cut him off CoS because he wasn´t going to have much relevance until book 6 so there wasn´t much of a point to leave it there and mention him once in a while until the right moment came. I think that this time it is a little bit clearer.

Anyway, I don´t really think that the fact that HBP was meant for book 2 nesesarily mean that she was talking about the same person. I support all those who said that the HBP was Tom Riddle in CoS and that now it is a different person who happens to fit in. But I thought it may add something to the discussion, after all that´s why were are here, right?

I always wondered about that. To my knowledge, Skeeter just referred to her as "the giantess Fridwulfa". I always thought that Fridwulfa had to do something pretty terrible (killing a lot of people, maybe?) for Rita to refer to her like that. But you bring up a good point; perhaps she was famous for being the leader of the Giants in some way? But if the wizarding community had known about it, I can't imagine Hagrid being ignorant to it. Wouldn't Dumbledore, or even Hagrid's father, have sat him down sometime and told him about his mother? Unless Dumbledore had wanted to keep it from Hagrid for a reason. Any thoughts?

Did Hagrid ever said he didn´t know his mother was famous? I always thought he knew, could you please tell me if I´m wrong? (which I probably am, but it´s better to be sure)

ComicBookWorm

July 16th, 2004, 2:24 am

Well it should actually be your highness :lol:

I would vote against the Baron and Sir Nicholas because we already know their titles. And the fat friar being a friar is unlikely to be a prince.

So I think we can safely add them all to our eliminated list.

True, I was promoting them one step.

starlette01350

July 16th, 2004, 2:25 am

How would everyone feel about compiling a comprehensive 'case study' for each prospective HBP? A few people could research each candidate (using personal theories, posts in previous forms of this thread, etc...) and then post their findings here. This way, we could compare different characters and the likelihood that they will be the HBP. Anyway, just a thought, it seems that some ideas are just getting reposted and maybe this would help to clear that up.

Jessica

July 16th, 2004, 2:26 am

(Updated list)

INITIAL CRITERIA FOR TESTING CANDIDATE PLAUSIBILITY:
1. Are they male?
2. Are they half blood (although there is still some debate as to JKR’s meaning of this)?
3. How could they be a prince?
4. Did they appear in book 2?
5. Is there a storyline plot for them?

ELIMINATED
• Harry Potter --- NOT POSSIBLE PER JKR WEBSITE
• Voldemort --- NOT POSSIBLE PER JKR WEBSITE
• Dudley Dursley --- OUT OF THE RUNNING PER CoS - "DURSLEYS HAD NOT A DROP OF MAGICAL BLOOD IN THEM”
• Draco Malfoy --- NOT POSSIBLE PER JKR WEBSITE - SAYS HE IS A PUREBLOOD
• Theodore Nott --- NOT POSSIBLE PER JKR WEBSITE - SAYS HE IS A PUREBLOOD
• Colin Creevey/Dennis Creevey --- MUGGLE BORN AS EVIDENCED BY ATTACK BY BASILISK (only attacked muggle borns)
• Lockhart --- generally felt as too ludicrous
• Lee Jordan – generally felt as not possible
• Lupin --- generally agreed he was meant for book 3
• Justin Finch Fletchley: NOT POSSIBLE. MUGGLE BORN PER CoS.
• Sir Nicholas: KNOWN TO BE KNIGHT NOT PRINCE
• Bloody Baron: KNOWN TO BE BARON NOT PRINCE
• Fat Friar: KNOWN TO BE FRIAR - UNLIKELY TO ALSO BE PRINCE

THE CANDIDATES
SNAPE
For: His character obviously has a lot in store
Against: Unlikely a death eater would be a half-blood
Conclusion: POSSIBLE

HAGRID
For: he seems to have nearly all the creatures in the forest respect. He could be a leader of the creatures for the light side; we learn a lot about his past in Book 2; Giant’s although violent, may still have royalty (Royalty can exist without it being acknowledged)
Against: Giants may not have royalty; He already has a big part;
Conclusion: POSSIBLE

A NEW CHARACTER
For: All book titles so far have been about someone/thing new
Against: It was a possible title for Book 2; some claim JKR said there would be no new characters in the final book
Conclusion: POSSIBLE

DOBBY
For: We don’t know if he is halfbreed/blood
Against: He seems to have little respect amongst other elves since he was freed (but he still could be a prince);
Conclusion: POSSIBLE

DUMBLEDORE
For: We know little about his background;
Against: He already has large role;
Conclusion: ?

DUNG
For:
Against:
Conclusion:

GODRIC GRYFFINDOR
For: A lot of mention towards legend in the whole series; lots of references to Godric (Hollow, colour of stars, the sword); had prominent mention in book 2; as a founder of a school could possibly be a prince
Against: Side-argument as to whether Harry is his heir; too much past-focussed and not forward-moving for the story;
Conclusion: VERY POSSIBLE

SALAZAR SLYTHERIN
For: Likely to be pureblood, but remember Tom Riddle
Against:
Conclusion: POSSIBLE

SEAMUS
For: He is also a half-blood said in the first book.
Against: He just doesn't seem like a Prince(A weak response I know)
Conclusion: POSSIBLE

DEAN
For: He is a half-blood said on J.K.'s site. Which puts him in the running
Against:Practically his whole history was put on her site, which tends to suggest that it's not that important. Also said his story was sacrificed for Neville's.
Conclusion: POSSIBLE

TOM RIDDLE
For: Book 2 could very easily have been called HBP and had little story change; lots of debate over whether he is the same or different person to Voldemort; JKR could be 'pulling a Dobby’ regarding his identity; he is male and half-blood;
Against: Many simply disbelieve the ‘split-personality’ theory
Conclusion: RELUCTANTLY A POSSIBILITY AND STILL HIGHLY DEBATED

ComicBookWorm

July 16th, 2004, 2:31 am

Puchula

July 16th, 2004, 2:38 am

Hi ComicBookWorm!
I´d like to check your thread out but it seems like you forgott to add the link to it in your post. Or is it that I´m not able to see it? :huh: Don´t know, if you could please edit your post or re post I´d thank you a lot!

Jessica

July 16th, 2004, 2:40 am

Puchula

July 16th, 2004, 2:45 am

SORRY!!!!

As I said before I´m to asleep for this... Maybe I shoulb be going off for bed :rotfl:

ComicBookWorm

July 16th, 2004, 2:46 am

Still confused. Is this what she wants :
The Case for Godric Gryffindor (http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=1079746&postcount=17)

Puchula, there are only two pages in this thread. On the first page there are several good arguments made by a few people about why one or the other candidates are good choices.

:huh:

Okey doke. Hope this helps.

Puchula

July 16th, 2004, 2:50 am

Thank you ComicBookWorm!! I´ll read them right now!

Cheezewiz_911

July 16th, 2004, 2:55 am

Jessica

July 16th, 2004, 3:00 am

I believe that maybe it was nearly headless nick because he is a ghost but used to be human making him part human or half-blood. I am not sure if he was royalty back then. But he was in the chamber of secrets and maybe he is the HBP.

Hi Cheezewiz, if you take a look at the list a few posts up you'll see we've already eliminated several characters including Nick :)

Cheezewiz_911

July 16th, 2004, 3:06 am

I'm sorry i didn't see that then i believe it is dobby or hagrid because dobby was very important in the CoS and maybe hagrids mom was a special giant ruler. I forgot what they where called. Plus Hagrid is friendly with practicly anything thats not human and dobby is free and can do many things to help.

Plus what if the HBP is somebody who becomes a prince and is not already a prince.

Neddlie

July 16th, 2004, 3:13 am

sabina17

July 16th, 2004, 3:17 am

So I understand that everyone can start a thread? I mean that girl who started this one she is a nobody. Right?

AncientPlum

July 16th, 2004, 3:18 am

Rita Skeeter

July 16th, 2004, 3:22 am

i think its godric gryffindor .. he didn't play a very important part in chamber of secrets [or rather, he didn't play a large part], which is similar to sirius black [mentioned in sorcerer's stone .. came back in Prisoner of Azkaban] .. also, i think we can assume that he was wealthy [which is very prince like .. ya i know, what can i say?] seeing as he helped start a school and all .. if thats not true, than maybe [me and my wacky ideas .. thats what i get for eating cheese late at night] half-blood is not like pure-blood, mudblood type blood .. its like good/bad .. so maybe its someone with a split-type personality .. well, im off so you can mock this crazy idea

Jessica

July 16th, 2004, 3:22 am

So I understand that everyone can start a thread? I mean that girl who started this one she is a nobody. Right?

While I appreciate being called a nobody, this is the wrong place to ask this question. However to answer it, yes anyone can start a thread. However, unless you do a serch first to make sure that your thread is not being discussed elsewhere your thread will be promptly closed.

Please keep this thread on topic. :)

Cheezewiz_911

July 16th, 2004, 3:23 am

Hi. The Prince of Wales is also the Duke of Cornwall. Can a Baron also be a Prince. Can a Knight also be a Prince. There were hundreds of ghosts at Sir Nick's deathday party maybe one of them was a prince.

That is impossibal for a knight or a duke to be a prince at the same time. The only other ghosts I can think of are proffeser bins who is to boring to even be close to be a prince, Sir Patrick Delany Podmore was mostlikely to be a knight, Grey lady who is a girl, Myrtle is also a girl, and Fat Friar well was a friar.

But on Harry Potter Lexicon they mentioned a ghost that had an arrow in their head who could have been King Harold II who was killed by William the Conqueror.

sabina17

July 16th, 2004, 3:24 am

While I appreciate being called a nobody, this is the wrong place to ask this question. However to answer it, yes anyone can start a thread. However, unless you do a serch first to make sure that your thread is not being discussed elsewhere your thread will be promptly closed.

Please keep this thread on topic. :)oh sorry, I didn't mean that...

Quadrophenic

July 16th, 2004, 3:26 am

I think that the New DADA is the best assumption amongst my thoughts. Let the arguments begin!

I don't think this can be since I think JKR was planning for Lockhart to be the DADA teacher all along. Having the new one be the HBP would mean that he was in book two (probably as the DADA professor) and was highly significant in relation to the finale of the series as well as the plot of CoS. I'm sticking with Godric Gryffindor. :huh:

Vigilance

July 16th, 2004, 4:31 am

We're assuming everyone knows who their biological parents are, aren't we?

Maybe JFF isn't completely out? Any number of kids could have been either adopted or illegitimate...but I suppose this is supposed to be a children's book, and as such, the social realitites of *******y, etc., are to be overlooked?

funnyhoney88

July 16th, 2004, 5:05 am

to me, i dont think the half blood prince will actually be a prince, becuase what would he be ruling? the wizarding world? that would be a big thing to work suddenly, wizarding king, queen, prince. now, i know people are going to say, "but in the past there could have been a wizarding nobility!" well, we've read alot about history of magic, gobllin rebellions, improper use of magic, wand regulations, wars, but nothing about a king. thinking about it more, if the wizards had a prince would the centaurs have there own nobility and the goblins as well? both dont regard wizards in the highest degree and would probably have their own leaders, even though i suppose they live under minstrey of magic rules, maybe not the centaurs i think i remember something about them breaking off from the ministrey in fantastic beasts and where to find them. to sum up my whole post, why does the half blood prince have to be an actual prince? how could he? what would he be the prince of and why has he never been mentioned before? how could she work in nobility? unless, it wasnt in england but in a different country, a different ministry, (bulgaria) and viktor was the half blood prince but i would think that their king would have come the quidditch world cup if they were supporting viktor. well that was a bit off sorry. though i thought i heard that viktor was pureblood. also, in the original post jessica posted that none of the other titles were mentioned before, but sirius black, the prisoner of azkaban, was mentioned in PS/SS, and the OotP was mentioned in GoF, indirectly. please reply.

Kelfa21

July 16th, 2004, 5:58 am

whizbang121

July 16th, 2004, 6:06 am

Good points 2. If there was even a remote chance of Dean being the Half-Blood Prince do you think that J.K. would post his history on the site? If that would have happened with Sirius before the third book, then fans would be utterly pleased at first, but then feel cheated out of the surprise.

I'm leaning toward Dean a bit. What if his wizard father was Regulus Black? :eyebrows: Sirius said his parents thought that to be born a Black practically made one royal. And if Regulus is Dean's father, then Dean would be a half blood in more than one regard.

But I'm completely aware that the only message of Dean Thomas may be that we just don't know what we think we know. :rolleyes:

We're assuming everyone knows who their biological parents are, aren't we? Yes. And we're already wrong on Dean Thomas.

Maybe JFF isn't completely out? Any number of kids could have been either adopted or illegitimate...but I suppose this is supposed to be a children's book, and as such, the social realitites of *******y, etc., are to be overlooked? According to JKR, yes.

ComicBookWorm

July 16th, 2004, 6:34 am

I'm leaning toward Dean a bit. What if his wizard father was Regulus Black? :eyebrows: Sirius said his parents thought that to be born a Black practically made one royal. And if Regulus is Dean's father, then Dean would be a half blood in more than one regard.

But I'm completely aware that the only message of Dean Thomas may be that we just don't know[/b] what we think we know. :rolleyes:

Yes. And we're already wrong on Dean Thomas. According to JKR, yes.
Let me get this straight then. Dean's real last name would be Black?? :huh:

whizbang121

July 16th, 2004, 6:54 am

Only if by some cosmic miracle my theory was right. Don't count on it. :lol:

But he would be a Black, yes. Again, in more ways than one. (Remember, JKR's heroine was Jessica Mitford, a civil rights activist. She named her daughter after her.)

Of course, if Dean's mother's second husband adopted him properly and all that, Thomas would be his name.

And my current obsessions is initials. Regulus may not have been using his real name, but my guess is the initials would be the same, RB.

ComicBookWorm

July 16th, 2004, 7:08 am

Lil Red Head

July 16th, 2004, 7:18 am

A NEW CHARACTER
For: All book titles so far have been about someone/thing new

I have a couple of thoughts.

Small detail on the New Character comment. The title "POA" referred to Sirius, who was mentioned in the first book (and played a behind-the-scenes role), and the Order of the Phoenix (the 5th book's title) was mentioned in the 4th book, although offhand, all I can find is Dumbledore saying "the old crowd" (Chap 36 The Parting of the Ways, p 618 UK paperback).

Another "character" not in the list - Peeves. The ghosts were discussed, what about Peeves? He's male, he was in the 2nd book. The main problem I see with my theory is that he hasn't been in the movies, so he's not likely due to the lack of backstory.

Also, what about Firenze? It looks like he'll be around for the 6th book, having been kicked out of the forest and all.

And, hey, jessicacarstens, Neville says he's nobody, so now you've been elevated to the same level of fame as Neville. :lol:

Frost

July 16th, 2004, 7:21 am

I don't know if it's an epidemic or what, but since this thread was reinstated for a fourth version, the majority of the posts have been one- or two-liners saying something as simple as

"hey i just read cos and i think that the hbp could be justin because he looks like the kind of person who would be a prince. what do you think?"

...no offense, but that is weak. It's almost unfair to the people who read through pages and pages of arguments to find maybe 3 or 4 posts that are more than a few sentences and actually have arguments to back them up. I know I have no authority, but I'm asking as nicely as possible just to please put some thought into your posts and make them worthwhile. THANK YOU!

Sorry to anyone who thinks I shouldn't have said that.

But on to my thoughts:

(Please remember that I don't support any one person as being the HBP, I only offer more ideas for people to think about and arguments that defend characters that may have been excluded. Also, it is my regret that some pieces of information that I have expanded on were originally proposed by others, but I no longer have access to the thread on which they were posted.)

Dudley Dursley - Ahh yes, the impossible candidate. But not quite how people make him out to be. I offered a few words in defense of Dudley early on in Version 3, but I'd like to re-post them here and add a few more bits to that.

It is my firm belief that so-called "Muggle-borns" are not from entirely Muggle bloodlines. I think that some small bit of magic can be passed on through many, many generations of families, like a gene. And over thousands of years, it may be forgotten that it ever existed. Therefore, some people may be considered "a family o' the biggest Muggles I ever laid eyes on", and still have a hint of magical blood in their veins. But any time at Mother Nature's choosing, the gene may arise, and one of their offspring may be born bearing those magical properties (in other words, a "Muggle-born" witch or wizard). Because ruling out random mutations (which wouldn't account for the number of Muggle-born witches/wizards), two pure Muggles having a child with magical properties is about as probable as two Italians giving birth to an Eskimo. Which brings me to my point: the Evans lineage most likely has a "gene" for magical properties in their blood.

From what we know, Lily Evans' parents were Muggles. Unless some revelation shows us that one of her parents or close relatives was, indeed, a witch or wizard, than for all purposes we can assume that Petunia Evans/Dursley is not a Squib (as commonly argued), but in fact just a Muggle. Now adding in my argument for the "wizarding gene", we can assume that that same gene was passed on to Petunia, but never arose and is sitting dormant, waiting to be passed on to her offspring. And that brings us to Dudley.

It is now probable that the wizarding gene has been passed on to Dudley, and he carries it, but it never arose in him either. It is also common knowledge that J.K. is planning on having a character develop magical properties late in life. This gives new hope for all Squibs, but so far we only know of Arabella Figg and Argus Filch...and I know I'm making rash decisions here but neither of them seem very likely to be of much help if they could suddenly do magic. And according to my theory, it would be possible for Petunia to develop magical properties, but that's not who I am focused on at the moment.

Concerning the dementors' attack on Little Whinging, Dudley had quite a strong reaction. In PoA, we learned that even Muggles can feel it when a dementor is close. But in no case have we reacted the same way Dudley did that night. Sure, we may wake up from a dream feeling like we'll never be happy again, or maybe we'll have a "mood swing" and feel depressed...but on that night that the dementors attacked Harry, Dudley got cold and turned temporarily blind (I'm sorry, I don't have my copy of OotP handy, so I can't quote it), but it's not a normal thing to happen to a Muggle. He even asked Harry what was going on, and that passage from the book infers that he had a strong sense of the dementors. And unless there is some horror in his past that we don't know about (from what we've read, he's been brought up as a pampered little "prince" and has never experienced much trauma), then I find it rather odd that the dementors had such an effect on him. Perhaps his magical awareness was growing.

I had so much more of an argument built up for Dudley, but it's 2 in the morning and I can't remember what else I had set aside to discuss. But just as well, this post goes on forever anyways. Well perhaps soon in time I will post more about Dudley (among other characters). And one more thing; if Dudley turned out to be the HBP, it would be a very ironic twist for his parents. Both of them (his father especially) would try to "stomp it out of him"...but I think that a little later on, Petunia would probably completely change her colors and refuse to associte with Muggles, instead embracing her "wizarding side". :p

Well I know this wasn't the strongest case in the world, but hey, it's just an idea...not to mention the many other points I failed to mention due to me forgetting what they were. Until next time, Accio broom!

IheartLupin12

July 16th, 2004, 7:34 am

I apologize if someone has already thought of this but--maybe JK isnt using the term "Half-Blood Prince" in a literal way. I recently re-read CoS and a part of the book stuck out to me. I cant find the page right now but something was mentioned about Neville being extremely nervous about being the next person to be petrified. When reminded that he wasn't a half-blood he said something along the lines of "Well, I'm practically half-blood because I can't perform any magic the right way." Its probably insignifigant, just something to think about.

whizbang121

July 16th, 2004, 7:42 am

jessicacarstens, what's going on here?! :lol:

Frost. Good arguments. Some of them sound familiar, in fact. :huh:
But what do you all think of this?

What if Gryffindor was a muggleborn but he died without children of his own? His heirs would be his muggle siblings, nieces, nephews etc. We know that it's not uncommon for more than one magical child to be born into a family, but what if the next magical child born into Gryffindor's family was Lily Evans? She would be his heir in the magical world, and upon dying, it would pass to her son, Harry.

As for Dudley, I'm not sure it's a good idea for him to develop magical powers. He'd probably join the DE's with his friend Piers Polkiss, (same initials and first name as Peter Pettigrew) who also realized that Harry was talking to the boa. :huh:

kayah

July 16th, 2004, 9:52 am

Going on the premise on which this new thread was started, ie striving for clarity and good arguments etc, if someone wants to propose a new candidate, maybe they could propose it in the format that 'the list' is in - ie Candidate, For:, Against:, Conclusion:. That way it makes it much easier for people to read, and add to, and it will also make it much easier when updating the list.

Another argument I have thought of in favour of Godric Gryffindor, and although it is admittedly based more on guesses rather than fact, it would support the 'what story line could it involve' question:

Godric Gryffindor:
For: In Book 6, I think i'm right in saying Harry will be starting his NEWTs. It is possible that there will be a subject, like History of Magic, that explains a lot about the past and it could explain about the history of the School Founders and any Princely origins of one of them.

Skad

July 16th, 2004, 10:00 am

I will explain why I think it’s Sturgis Podmore:

Sir Patrick Delaney-Podmore en Sturgis Podmore have the same name. Sturgis could be his great-great-…-great grandson or something.
Sir Patrick Delaney-Podmore appears for the first time in CoS as the head of those weird ghosts. The party of Sir Nicholas hasn’t got another function than introducing Sir Patrick. (Moaning Myrtle could be introduced anywhere)
Sturgis Podmore appears in the OotP. He’s a member of the order and Rowling spends a lot of time to him (though for a background character)
Sir Nicholas mentions Sir Patrick in the first movie. In the third movie, we see headless knights on a ghost-horse. Those little things must be important, because they would have been cut out if they were not.

PS. I’m Dutch, so don’t watch my language…

Kimmetje

July 16th, 2004, 10:03 am

kayah

July 16th, 2004, 11:22 am

Why Harry could be the heir of Gryffindor;

1.Harry's parents lived on Gordric's Hollow
2.Red and Gold sparks came out of his wand
3.His birth constellation is Leo the Lion
4. He pulled Gordric's sward out of the hat

Who else could do that? :huh:

Agreed, but this is a thread for discussing the title of Book 6 and who the Half Blood Prince will be. There is probably another thread for this where it is better placed.

Kazza

July 16th, 2004, 11:29 am

Why Harry could be the heir of Gryffindor;

1.Harry's parents lived on Gordric's Hollow
2.Red and Gold sparks came out of his wand
3.His birth constellation is Leo the Lion
4. He pulled Gordric's sward out of the hat

Who else could do that? :huh:

A true Gryffindor, thats who. NOT necessarily the heir. I'm not convinced with the heir business. Just because Salazar Slytherin has a living decendent, doesn't mean Gryffindor, Ravenclaw or Hufflepuff HAVE TO either.

Shrewd

July 16th, 2004, 2:17 pm

Dudley Dursley - Ahh yes, the impossible candidate. But not quite how people make him out to be. I offered a few words in defense of Dudley early on in Version 3, but I'd like to re-post them here and add a few more bits to that...

...It is also common knowledge that J.K. is planning on having a character develop magical properties late in life. This gives new hope for all Squibs, but so far we only know of Arabella Figg and Argus Filch...and I know I'm making rash decisions here but neither of them seem very likely to be of much help if they could suddenly do magic. And according to my theory, it would be possible for Petunia to develop magical properties, but that's not who I am focused on at the moment.{/QUOTE]
I think it's Petunia. Just a little bit of info. And since I didn't know that, where did she say it?

[QUOTE=Frost]Concerning the dementors' attack on Little Whinging, Dudley had quite a strong reaction. In PoA, we learned that even Muggles can feel it when a dementor is close. But in no case have we reacted the same way Dudley did that night...
...And unless there is some horror in his past that we don't know about (from what we've read, he's been brought up as a pampered little "prince" and has never experienced much trauma), then I find it rather odd that the dementors had such an effect on him. Perhaps his magical awareness was growing.I'm in favor of it being a sudden awareness of what a horrible, bullying git he's been his whole life. I may, however, be biased by my incredible distaste for the idea of the HBP being Dudley.

As to whoever said we should put Lupin back on the list, because there's no real evidence that the character we're dealing with was actually introduced in book 2, I think we'd need a really good argument in favor of another character to add someone who wasn't on the list. And I mean really good. It just doesn't seem likely.
And I know someone else is vaguely supporting my idea that JKR is pulling a Dobby (I love how that's becoming more commonly used... :) ), which does not require us to believe that Tom and LV are two separate entities. So while the two-separate-entities thing is still a con, due to the fact that most people don't seem to believe it, it is a good reason to keep him on the list.
...sorry if I seem like I'm repeating myself. I'm not fully awake yet.

whizbang121

July 16th, 2004, 2:43 pm

Agreed, but this is a thread for discussing the title of Book 6 and who the Half Blood Prince will be. There is probably another thread for this where it is better placed.
Keep your 'airnet on. ;)
It's all related. Godric Gryffindor, the founders, the possiblility of Harry's being an heir of Gryffindor have all come from book two, which we have been told is the key to the series. If the identity of the HBP is foreshadowed in Book 2, then discussing it is relative.
We know that Harry is not the HBP, but if Gryffindor was a prince and a half blood,(big if) then we're back to considering Dudley, Harry's older cousin. But then one of his parents would have to be magical, or they would both have to be mixed. Somehow, I just don't see any magic in Vernon Dursley, the character JKR said she disliked the most. :shrug: Of course, we're not sure if the HBP is a magical person. :sigh:

As for Godric himself, well, that was a really nice sword. Princely weapon, one might say. :huh:

:rolleyes: What about Molly's cousin, the accountant?

As to whoever said we should put Lupin back on the list, because there's no real evidence that the character we're dealing with was actually introduced in book 2, I think we'd need a really good argument in favor of another character to add someone who wasn't on the list. And I mean really good. It just doesn't seem likely. :huh:
Well, let's consider that JKR said on her website that while HBP was a working title for Book two, she also said that she removed a lot of story because it gave away too much too soon. So, we may not have seen the HBP introduced in Book two at all. It sure would narrow things down, but let's not underestimate the author.
And I know someone else is vaguely supporting my idea that JKR is pulling a Dobby (I love how that's becoming more commonly used... :) ), which does not require us to believe that Tom and LV are two separate entities. So while the two-separate-entities thing is still a con, due to the fact that most people don't seem to believe it, Dont you think that how many people do or don't believe something is a little .... irrelevant? Unless, of course, I missed something and we're writing the last two books. :p it is a good reason to keep him on the list.
...sorry if I seem like I'm repeating myself. I'm not fully awake yet.

scoder

July 16th, 2004, 3:30 pm

does anyone think it is Fawkes? he saved harry in COS and maybe all of his history would have been revealed by DD in COS. he had a pretty big part in COS, and has throughout the stories been there. and im not sure if i should post this here, but: does anyone know why when DD says in COS, "phoenixs...make very faithful pets. any one know why faithful is italicized? i think fawkes is actually an animagus or something, possibly GG.

Shrewd

July 16th, 2004, 3:38 pm

Of course, we're not sure if the HBP is a magical person. :sigh:Good point.
:rolleyes: What about Molly's cousin, the accountant?:rotfl: That would be fun. Too bad his child is a girl and the Prewetts were purebloods. :sigh:
So, we may not have seen the HBP introduced in Book two at all. It sure would narrow things down, but let's not underestimate the author.I know, which is why I said a really good argument might sway me. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see Lupin as the HBP, but I just think that it's most likely a character from book 2.
Dont you think that how many people do or don't believe something is a little .... irrelevant? Unless, of course, I missed something and we're writing the last two books. :pWe are? Really? YAY! Wait... nooooooooo! The Toenail of Icklibogg is back! :upset:

Someone mentioned something a little while back about the possibility that the reason she felt the HBP best fit this book was because of something that happened in the 5th book, possibly the revelation of the prophecy. Does anyone have any thoughts on that matter, such as how that might affect our list (if true)?

Prophecy, according to angel spirit's sig:
"The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...
Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies...
And the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not...
And either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives...
The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies..."

I've also included the list, since it's off the page by now:
(Updated list)

INITIAL CRITERIA FOR TESTING CANDIDATE PLAUSIBILITY:
1. Are they male?
2. Are they half blood (although there is still some debate as to JKR’s meaning of this)?
3. How could they be a prince?
4. Did they appear in book 2?
5. Is there a storyline plot for them?

ELIMINATED
• Harry Potter --- NOT POSSIBLE PER JKR WEBSITE
• Voldemort --- NOT POSSIBLE PER JKR WEBSITE
• Dudley Dursley --- OUT OF THE RUNNING PER CoS - "DURSLEYS HAD NOT A DROP OF MAGICAL BLOOD IN THEM”
• Draco Malfoy --- NOT POSSIBLE PER JKR WEBSITE - SAYS HE IS A PUREBLOOD
• Theodore Nott --- NOT POSSIBLE PER JKR WEBSITE - SAYS HE IS A PUREBLOOD
• Colin Creevey/Dennis Creevey --- MUGGLE BORN AS EVIDENCED BY ATTACK BY BASILISK (only attacked muggle borns)
• Lockhart --- generally felt as too ludicrous
• Lee Jordan – generally felt as not possible
• Lupin --- generally agreed he was meant for book 3
• Justin Finch Fletchley: NOT POSSIBLE. MUGGLE BORN PER CoS.
• Sir Nicholas: KNOWN TO BE KNIGHT NOT PRINCE
• Bloody Baron: KNOWN TO BE BARON NOT PRINCE
• Fat Friar: KNOWN TO BE FRIAR - UNLIKELY TO ALSO BE PRINCE

THE CANDIDATES
SNAPE
For: His character obviously has a lot in store
Against: Unlikely a death eater would be a half-blood
Conclusion: POSSIBLE

HAGRID
For: he seems to have nearly all the creatures in the forest respect. He could be a leader of the creatures for the light side; we learn a lot about his past in Book 2; Giant’s although violent, may still have royalty (Royalty can exist without it being acknowledged)
Against: Giants may not have royalty; He already has a big part;
Conclusion: POSSIBLE

A NEW CHARACTER
For: All book titles so far have been about someone/thing new
Against: It was a possible title for Book 2; some claim JKR said there would be no new characters in the final book
Conclusion: POSSIBLE

DOBBY
For: We don’t know if he is halfbreed/blood
Against: He seems to have little respect amongst other elves since he was freed (but he still could be a prince);
Conclusion: POSSIBLE

DUMBLEDORE
For: We know little about his background;
Against: He already has large role;
Conclusion: ?

DUNG
For:
Against:
Conclusion:

GODRIC GRYFFINDOR
For: A lot of mention towards legend in the whole series; lots of references to Godric (Hollow, colour of stars, the sword); had prominent mention in book 2; as a founder of a school could possibly be a prince
Against: Side-argument as to whether Harry is his heir; too much past-focussed and not forward-moving for the story;
Conclusion: VERY POSSIBLE

SALAZAR SLYTHERIN
For: Likely to be pureblood, but remember Tom Riddle
Against:
Conclusion: POSSIBLE

SEAMUS
For: He is also a half-blood said in the first book.
Against: He just doesn't seem like a Prince(A weak response I know)
Conclusion: POSSIBLE

DEAN
For: He is a half-blood said on J.K.'s site. Which puts him in the running
Against:Practically his whole history was put on her site, which tends to suggest that it's not that important. Also said his story was sacrificed for Neville's.
Conclusion: POSSIBLE

TOM RIDDLE
For: Book 2 could very easily have been called HBP and had little story change; lots of debate over whether he is the same or different person to Voldemort; JKR could be 'pulling a Dobby’ regarding his identity; he is male and half-blood;
Against: Many simply disbelieve the ‘split-personality’ theory
Conclusion: RELUCTANTLY A POSSIBILITY AND STILL HIGHLY DEBATED

kayah

July 16th, 2004, 4:17 pm

Dont you think that how many people do or don't believe something is a little .... irrelevant? Unless, of course, I missed something and we're writing the last two books. :p

I agree it's quite a vague criteria to judge anything on, but I think that we agreed to keep this candidate on the list is because if we tried to take it off there would be too many people arguing in his favour and clamouring to put it on; it is still a really debated issue.

whizbang121

July 16th, 2004, 4:32 pm

Oh Lupin was one of my first candidates. :agree: I also wonder if he's Luna's father and the editor of the Quibbler. Seriously. :agree:
And then, I wonder if Tonks has a brother. :eyebrows:

angel spirit

July 16th, 2004, 4:59 pm

O-kay... Here is my Tom Riddle theory. It's pretty long and at parts can be confusing, but bear with me... :)

Short history up to Chamber of Secrets

Tom Riddle was born most likely after his father found out that she was witch. She was left alone and died giving birth to Tom. Tom is taken to the closest Muggle orphanage to Little Hangleton and stays there for the first eleven years of his life. These years are obviously not good ones, and Tom rejoices when he gets the letter to Hogwarts.

This is now where he finds out his mother was a witch. Ollivander provides a little background information about his mother, saying she was a good Slytherin. So, Tom wants to be in the house of his mother, but finds out that the house is known for only accepting purebloods. His hopes are lowered and he walks up to the sorting hat. But the hat tells him something very strange, that he has the blood of Salazar Slytherin in his veins. He assumes that it's through his mother, and makes his way to the Slytherin table.

For the next few years his head starts to get a bit inflated. He knows that he his the heir of Slytherin, and reads all he can in both sections of the library for information. He finds out that Slytherin had built a chamber that only his heir could find. He reads that Slytherin was a parslemouth and could talk to snakes. So he goes out the the forest, finds a gardner snake and sees that he can talk to it. So he thinks that you must use parseltongue to find the chamber. He searches all over the school, expecting to find a painting or a staircase that only he can see. He doesn't know what he's looking for.

Chamber of Secrets is opened

But he finds it in his 5th year. Unwittingly stumbling in a girl's bathroom, finding the broken tap by chance. He sets off to purge the school of the muggle-borns that have tortured him all of his life in the orphange. Well he suceeds sort of. But closes the chamber, and tries to think of a way he could open it later.

Recently though, the Slytherins found out that he was a half-blood, tracing him back to his muggle father. They ridicule him for tainted blood, and say that he is not the heir of Slytherin as he claims.

So what does Tom do? He plans to kill his father the coming summer. He goes to Little Hangleton and kills his muggle family. He now has to find a new name, not carry the name of his deceased father. He comes up with Lord Voldemort and has a brainwave on how he could open the chamber. He puts a bit of his power into a diary, leaving it with one of his friends right before he leaves school. Saying to give it to an unknowing child once the fear had been forgotten. Draco Malfoy's Grandfather.

Dangerous Magical Transformations

Tom Riddle vows to become the greatest wizard of all time, and to purge the world of those like his father. He invites an evil spirit in his body for a temporary period to help him gain strength. But the spirit doesn't leave. Now Tom is overshadowed by his own creation.

He now sees the wrongness of his evil, and tries to stop the evil spirit. It's too late now though. For 30 years, Voldemort grows stronger and stronger. He wants to find out his downfall though, because he read a prophecy about his reign as Dark Lord. He finds it in the Hog's head. He looks at the two canidates. Harry Potter and Neville Longbottom. He chooses Harry.

Godric's Hollow

When he arrives at the house, he's met with little resistence. That's good. He wanted to get in and out. But Tom is struggling inside Voldemort, yelling not to kill a half-blood like himself. A momentary change of power happens, where Tom tells Lily to get away so Voldemort doesn't kill her. He hopes maybe that this baby will somehow kill him right there. Tom wants to die. But Voldemort takes control, the spell rebounds, and Tom dies.

Tom is now dead, plain and simple. His body and soul are gone. Now Vapormort exists. The spirit that Tom let into his body. Therefore, the present Voldemort has now part of Tom, and the diary Tom has no part of Voldemort. They are seperate people. One dead, one living.

That's my theory, Tom and Voldemort are indeed seperate people. But whether Tom is the half-blood prince, that's a different debate.

Postingly,

~-Angel Spirit-~

Shrewd

July 16th, 2004, 5:07 pm

Oh Lupin was one of my first candidates. :agree: I also wonder if he's Luna's father and the editor of the Quibbler. Seriously. :agree:
And then, I wonder if Tonks has a brother. :eyebrows:Maybe we should call you Wonky Whizzy. :p

I really would like to see him as the HBP, but at the same time I think he'll have an important enough role in the books as the only person who can really tell Harry what his parents and Sirius were like as kids and with their friends. I mean, if Sirius was starting to become a father/brother figure for him, there's nothing to say that Lupin won't become a father-figure/mentor to him, as he started to be in PoA.
...although it would be a nice shock for the wizarding community to have a werewolf show up as a very important figure in saving them from the DEs. :elaugh: Lupin's revenge! and he doesn't even have to be mean about it! :agree:

O-kay... Here is my Tom Riddle theory. It's pretty long and at parts can be confusing, but bear with me... :):cough: etc etc. Long to leave copied.
That's a really interesting theory, although I like mine better. :angel: I'm not sure how much credit I give it, although I wouldn't just dismiss it. That would of course leave him open to be the HBP, albiet a dead one.
Did we ever find out for sure that it was Voldemort/Tom that killed the Riddles? I mean, we know they were killed by Avada Kedabra. But was it him?

angel spirit

July 16th, 2004, 5:15 pm

:cough: etc etc. Long to leave copied.
That's a really interesting theory, although I like mine better. :angel: I'm not sure how much credit I give it, although I wouldn't just dismiss it. That would of course leave him open to be the HBP, albiet a dead one.
Did we ever find out for sure that it was Voldemort/Tom that killed the Riddles? I mean, we know they were killed by Avada Kedabra. But was it him?

:lol: I know I was a bit long-winded, but there are some many people that think that Tom Riddle has no chance. A lot of the theory is pure specualtion mixed with baselines of canon.

Tom Riddle still exists in the diary, which Lucius Malfoy could have restored. Malfoy has a lot of dark magic objects, maybe one of which can resurrect spirits?

I'm pretty sure it was Tom that killed his father, because it was before he hosted the evil spirit. I'm not saying Tom was ever good, he saw the error of his ways though after it was too late.

Veritaserum_

July 16th, 2004, 5:27 pm

I'm telling you all, again, for the 1,000th time! The HBP is the Heir of Gryiffindor... mark my words ;)

Skad

July 16th, 2004, 5:27 pm

Why does everyone forget Sturgis Podmore. He has a lot of chance to!
(see my previeus message)

He could be very important, mark my words!

angel spirit

July 16th, 2004, 5:30 pm

I'm telling you all, again, for the 1,000th time! The HBP is the Heir of Gryiffindor... mark my words ;)

Where's your proof? We're all guessing just the same. Godric is a likely choice, but unless your J.K. you don't know.

Postingly,

~-Angel Spirit-~

phowell13

July 16th, 2004, 5:54 pm

After re-reading CoS for the thousandth time

I am divided...in my mind both Godric Gryffindor and Tom Riddle are excellent candidates for the Half-Blood Prince title

I like the idea that Riddle may be the Half-Blood Prince because I have a theory that being the Half-Blood prince is more his journey from being the conniving 16 year old he was in CoS...to the evil dark lord he is now
How did that transformation occur? When did he begin to recruit DEs? How long had he been plotting? What had he been doing all those years before the first war began?

But I also like the idea that Godric Gryffindor is the Half-Blood Prince because it would be a wonderful companion piece to the second book...we find out that LV is the heir of Slytherin in the second book and the heir of Gryffindor is Harry in the sixth book...a bit convienant but very plausible

I do not think that Snape is the Half-Blood prince...although he is third in the list of pausible candidates for me simply because we still don't know much about his background...

I am in the same position that Kalfa is in, debating between Riddle and Gryffindor as the two most likely suspects in my mind. My problem with Gryffindor is that the titles of the books in the past have been essential to the story (the sorcerer's stone was the central focus of book one as was the chamber of secrets in book two, etc.). I don't see us simply finding out the history of Gryffindor and his role as the HBP and that being enough to make him the title of the next book. What we learn must be vital to the plot of the next book. Now this would be possible if Gryffindor were a ghost or there were a portrait of him. There must be some link of the past and the present for Gryffindor to be important enough to the plotline to be the title of this book. And I don't think that is very likely.

Speaking of ghosts, my favorite theory (that I think is not at all likely) would be if the HBP were to refer to Salazaar Slytherin. And, if Slytherin were to be a ghost who resided in the Chamber of Secrets. We know that ghosts generally have not had happy lives or are afraid of death, although we don't know the specifics. Slytherin doesn't seem a happy sort of fellow. It could have been that Slytherin was to be introduced in the Chamber in Book 2 and we found out more of his past. This past could have been similar to Tom Riddle's past, linking past and present.

cemour

July 16th, 2004, 7:05 pm

I think we all need to look closely at the title that JKR gave us.
"Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince"
If you look through her stories, she always hyphenates half-blood. JKR never does things by accident.
I do not know what half of a blood prince would mean, but it is another way to look at it.

Jessica

July 16th, 2004, 7:29 pm

I am in the same position that Kalfa is in, debating between Riddle and Gryffindor as the two most likely suspects in my mind. My problem with Gryffindor is that the titles of the books in the past have been essential to the story (the sorcerer's stone was the central focus of book one as was the chamber of secrets in book two, etc.). I don't see us simply finding out the history of Gryffindor and his role as the HBP and that being enough to make him the title of the next book. What we learn must be vital to the plot of the next book. Now this would be possible if Gryffindor were a ghost or there were a portrait of him. There must be some link of the past and the present for Gryffindor to be important enough to the plotline to be the title of this book. And I don't think that is very likely.

I can see Godric being a very intersting part of the book. :)

After all Slytherin made quite a contibution to CoS - his history was integral to that plot.

JKR has all kinds of surprises in store for us. Gryffindor could have an heir (as many people suspect) he could have left something at the school like Slytherin did. There could be something about Fawkes (who many of us supect used to belong to Godric).

I think we could learn more about the founders and have a great real time plot at the same time :)

(may as well bring the list forward)

INITIAL CRITERIA FOR TESTING CANDIDATE PLAUSIBILITY:
1. Are they male?
2. Are they half blood (although there is still some debate as to JKR’s meaning of this)?
3. How could they be a prince?
4. Did they appear in book 2?
5. Is there a storyline plot for them?

ELIMINATED
• Harry Potter --- NOT POSSIBLE PER JKR WEBSITE
• Voldemort --- NOT POSSIBLE PER JKR WEBSITE
• Dudley Dursley --- OUT OF THE RUNNING PER CoS - "DURSLEYS HAD NOT A DROP OF MAGICAL BLOOD IN THEM”
• Draco Malfoy --- NOT POSSIBLE PER JKR WEBSITE - SAYS HE IS A PUREBLOOD
• Theodore Nott --- NOT POSSIBLE PER JKR WEBSITE - SAYS HE IS A PUREBLOOD
• Colin Creevey/Dennis Creevey --- MUGGLE BORN AS EVIDENCED BY ATTACK BY BASILISK (only attacked muggle borns)
• Lockhart --- generally felt as too ludicrous
• Lee Jordan – generally felt as not possible
• Lupin --- generally agreed he was meant for book 3
• Justin Finch Fletchley: NOT POSSIBLE. MUGGLE BORN PER CoS.
• Sir Nicholas: KNOWN TO BE KNIGHT NOT PRINCE
• Bloody Baron: KNOWN TO BE BARON NOT PRINCE
• Fat Friar: KNOWN TO BE FRIAR - UNLIKELY TO ALSO BE PRINCE

THE CANDIDATES
SNAPE
For: His character obviously has a lot in store
Against: Unlikely a death eater would be a half-blood
Conclusion: POSSIBLE

HAGRID
For: he seems to have nearly all the creatures in the forest respect. He could be a leader of the creatures for the light side; we learn a lot about his past in Book 2; Giant’s although violent, may still have royalty (Royalty can exist without it being acknowledged)
Against: Giants may not have royalty; He already has a big part;
Conclusion: POSSIBLE

A NEW CHARACTER
For: All book titles so far have been about someone/thing new
Against: It was a possible title for Book 2; some claim JKR said there would be no new characters in the final book
Conclusion: POSSIBLE

DOBBY
For: We don’t know if he is halfbreed/blood
Against: He seems to have little respect amongst other elves since he was freed (but he still could be a prince);
Conclusion: POSSIBLE

DUMBLEDORE
For: We know little about his background;
Against: He already has large role;
Conclusion: ?

DUNG
For:
Against:
Conclusion:

GODRIC GRYFFINDOR
For: A lot of mention towards legend in the whole series; lots of references to Godric (Hollow, colour of stars, the sword); had prominent mention in book 2; as a founder of a school could possibly be a prince
Against: Side-argument as to whether Harry is his heir; too much past-focussed and not forward-moving for the story;
Conclusion: VERY POSSIBLE

SALAZAR SLYTHERIN
For: Likely to be pureblood, but remember Tom Riddle
Against:
Conclusion: POSSIBLE

SEAMUS
For: He is also a half-blood said in the first book.
Against: He just doesn't seem like a Prince(A weak response I know)
Conclusion: POSSIBLE

DEAN
For: He is a half-blood said on J.K.'s site. Which puts him in the running
Against:Practically his whole history was put on her site, which tends to suggest that it's not that important. Also said his story was sacrificed for Neville's.
Conclusion: POSSIBLE

TOM RIDDLE
For: Book 2 could very easily have been called HBP and had little story change; lots of debate over whether he is the same or different person to Voldemort; JKR could be 'pulling a Dobby’ regarding his identity; he is male and half-blood;
Against: Many simply disbelieve the ‘split-personality’ theory
Conclusion: RELUCTANTLY A POSSIBILITY AND STILL HIGHLY DEBATED

jaypee

July 16th, 2004, 7:37 pm

cedricpatrick

July 16th, 2004, 8:17 pm

Very nice indeed but we must go to Book 2 to find out the clues and it leads to Lockhart. NO, I'm not saying he's the HBP but remember he "wrote" many books about different types of things. I think Half Blood Prince has to do with one of two things: unicorn or a vampire.

Half life=half blood.

Unicorn blood always give the dranker a half life because of the purity of the unicorn. The reason she eliminated Voldemort because in Book 4, by using Harry's blood, he became as much as a human as he could become.

Half blood prince = Vampire

A vampire can only survive by drinking blood but they are not truly human as they gave that up when they became a vampire.

New DADA = HBP

We know that Joanne introduces at least one new character each book and why not it be the Defence Against the Dark Arts teacher.

I think that the New DADA is the best assumption amongst my thoughts. Let the arguments begin!

I'm not sure about the whole unicorn blood thing, but I don't see any reason that the new DADA teacher couldn't be a vampire (for a second I thought you were going into the Snape being a vampire theory.. :huh:), vampires have come up in conversation several times in the books, it would make sense for JK to eventually introduce a character that is a vampire. However, a vampire could be unlikely because there has already been a "deformation" (for lack of a better word) of a human as a DADA teacher (Lupin the werewolf). Back to Snape, I think that he will be a DADA teacher for a year before the series is over, but I really don't think he is a vampire.

cemour

July 16th, 2004, 8:31 pm

Back to Snape, I think that he will be a DADA teacher for a year before the series is over, but I really don't think he is a vampire.

Wouldn't that be way cool !?!
But then it opens the door for still yet another teacher in the Potions department.

whizbang121

July 16th, 2004, 8:55 pm

[ He sets off to purge the school of the muggle-borns that have tortured him all of his life in the orphange. Chances are low that there were muggleborns at the orphanage, but anything is possible.
Tom is now dead, plain and simple. His body and soul are gone. Now Vapormort exists. The spirit that Tom let into his body. Therefore, the present Voldemort has now part of Tom, and the diary Tom has no part of Voldemort. They are seperate people. One dead, one living.

That's my theory, Tom and Voldemort are indeed seperate people. But whether Tom is the half-blood prince, that's a different debate.

Postingly,

~-Angel Spirit-~Then why does Dumbledore address the Dark Lord as Tom in the battle of the MoM?

Skad

July 16th, 2004, 8:57 pm

I think Rowling said that Snape would never be a DADA-teacher, because that would be bad for him. He would probably go on with his old habits (Dark Arts)

angel spirit

July 16th, 2004, 9:04 pm

Chances are low that there were muggleborns at the orphanage, but anything is possible.

Oops, I meant just muggles.

Then why does Dumbledore address the Dark Lord as Tom in the battle of the MoM?

Well the only plausible counterpoint I can think of is that Dumbledore hasn't figured it out yet. It's a just a theory, and the HBP probably will be someone like Gryffindor. But just talking about Gryffindor would make quite a boring thread wouldn't it? :)

Postingly,

~-Angel Spirit-~

whizbang121

July 16th, 2004, 9:10 pm

You're right, of course, that we come here for fun and intelletual acrobatics. My deepest feeling is that like the DADAs of the past, the HBP will be someone entirely new.

swi711

July 16th, 2004, 9:11 pm

firenze is my pick because he has half blood of human in him and he got a little bigger in the story line in book 5 and book 1 he was there too

angel spirit

July 16th, 2004, 9:53 pm

firenze is my pick because he has half blood of human in him and he got a little bigger in the story line in book 5 and book 1 he was there too

Yes, but he is a full-blooded centuar. He has no blood of a human in him, just has similar looks to a human. Just like Buckbeak is not half horse half eagle, but a hippogriff.

Firenze being kicked out of forest symbolized that the centaurs were on the light side, but viewed them as the lesser of two evils. Joining Dumbledore was still viewed as a tratiorous action.

Postingly,

~-Angel Spirit-~

Dr Hesper

July 16th, 2004, 10:00 pm

Nicely justified points, Dr Hesper, just a couple of comments:i think i accept that as a possible point, although there were also debates as to how much magic you have to have in you to make a half blood. I think the conclusion was 1:3 magic grandparents. We are pretty sure i think that both Lily/Petunia and Vernon's parents were all muggles.Arrgh! Another thread moved. At least a link was posted this time around, which is highly unusual.

Ok, here's my thougths on discussions. "Discussions" on various topics about the books are fun. A lot of fun. But we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that it is mere speculation and thats all. Thus, this list is flawed because (no offense intended to anyone) when we make statements saying that someone simply cannot be the HBP (as I, myself, did regarding Tom Riddle), we are fooling ourselves. We just dont know for sure what JKR is going to throw at us.

Now, while I don't think Tom Riddle can be the HBP because of the rather unrealistic reason I gave earlier, I suppose within the bounds of JKR's creativity, then it is possible. She could probably work out a way for Riddle to be the HBP because she is the creator. It is for this same reason that we cannot eliminate the possibility of Dudley. Just because a bunch of us say it cannot be this guy, doesn't make it so. In her explanation of when magic shows up in people, she leaves open the possibility that sometimes it does, in fact, show up later in life.

Hey, I dont think it's Dudly either. But I wont rule him out. As far as I know, Petunia just might be a witch. I dont think her parent's being muggles matter in this case. Petunia might have a very good reason for keeping her magical heritage a secret. (Yeah, i know there are other threads suggesting otherwise, but I dont care). It doesnt'matter because it is all sheer speculation. Unless JKR tells us that Dudley cannot be a HBP, then who are we to say he isnt?

Also, I'm beginning to think that maybe this HBP might not be current character in the series. In fact, it might be referring to a dusty old statue... or a moldy old book in the library. What if the HBP were a piece of magical literature? Wouldnt that be a hoot. Lol!

angel spirit

July 16th, 2004, 10:06 pm

Hey, I dont think it's Dudly either. But I wont rule him out. As far as I know, Petunia just might be a witch. I dont think her parent's being muggles matter in this case. Petunia might have a very good reason for keeping her magical heritage a secret. (Yeah, i know there are other threads suggesting otherwise, but I dont care). It doesnt'matter because it is all sheer speculation. Unless JKR tells us that Dudley cannot be a HBP, then who are we to say he isnt?

It can't be any of the Dursleys. The books stated that they "did not have drop of magical blood in them". And according to Petunia's attitude towards magic, I don't think she would be a witch anyways. Even if J.K. doesn't say it in stone, doesn't mean that we can't use canon to disprove something :)

Postingly,

~-Angel Spirit-~

Kazza

July 16th, 2004, 10:14 pm

Hi guys,
I've just been checking out JK's site in case the "sign" had gone - it hasn't don't worry! - But I've been reading about sirius' mirror... check it out:
"The mirror might not have helped as much as you think, but on the other hand, wil help more than you think."
She says she cannot answer the question of "why did Harry forget the mirror Sirius gave him?" because it effects books 6 & 7.

I wonder what that is all about?!?!?!?!

kitco

July 16th, 2004, 10:22 pm

ELIMINATED
• Lockhart --- generally felt as too ludicrous

I don't think we should take him off the list, I'm not a big fan of Lockhart, but something came up.

I remember reading in the previous thread how some people came up with the conclusion that the HBP is someone who will help create a peace... well, this thing bounced at me when I reread book 2:

"And a few of you need to read Wandering with Werewolves more carefully - I clearly state in chapter twelve that my ideal birthday gift would be harmony between all magic and non magic peoples." [Lockhart, II, 100]

Lockhart is a brat, show-off, etc. But he still is a possibility.
Maybe he is just talking - like all famous people talk about helping achieve world peace. To some, it is just something to talk about. But to others, it is a dream. For instance, JKR is now a powerful woman, and the things she has done to handicapped children are wonderful.

My point is, maybe Lockhart will have to use his charm and wit to give himself an ideal birthday present. We all wait to get our presents eagerly, maybe he'll work for his. Memory charms can be broken [Voldemort & Bertha Jorkins, IV]

Also, I must admit, I like Lockharts behavior towards different people [Hagrid, half-giant]. So nice compared to others .

And I'm sure if he was a prince, he would have been sure to mention it... but maybe he will become a prince.

You can be a prince or you can be crowned a prince.

PS. Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince... I really can't see the title as "Harry Potter and Professor Snape" [u]or "Harry Potter and Tom M. Riddle" The books are all about the conflict between Harry and Voldemort... odd...

Dr Hesper

July 16th, 2004, 10:27 pm

It can't be any of the Dursleys. The books stated that they "did not have drop of magical blood in them". And according to Petunia's attitude towards magic, I don't think she would be a witch anyways. Even if J.K. doesn't say it in stone, doesn't mean that we can't use canon to disprove something :)Um...the Dursley line doesn't have magical blood. The Evans line obviously does because of Lily. Petunia is an Evans. She is only a Dursley through marriage. Actually she doesnt even have to be a witch for Dudley to be a wizard. Its what is in the blood that counts. And the Evans have magic in their blood. If Petunia is a witch at all, she came into the marriage as a witch. I can see Vernon and a overblown Darron Stephens (from bewitched) trying desperately to suppress his wife's magical nature. Maybe a successful marriage is more important to Petunia than being a witch. It wouldnt be the first time someone devoted their life to the extreme in trying to make a successful marriage. (My cousin did it and she's now paying for it with her outlaw son). :upset: But Petunia might simply be a "carrier".

I urge people not to overlook the idea that JKR's statements about the Dursleys might be mere tricky wordplay on her part. Again, Dudley probably isnt the HBP (I happen to think it might be related to Trevor actually), but we shouldnt eliminate him as a possibility. We cannot treat speculation as canon. Nothing suggested in these threads should be taken as canon. If so, we'd all be furious with JKR about the whole Mark Evans deal. :rotfl:

no1 potter fan

July 16th, 2004, 10:39 pm

well harry definatly cant be the half blood prince even though he is a half blood he has to be in the book. If Harry was the half blood prince the book should be called harry potter the half blood prince

ComicBookWorm

July 16th, 2004, 10:47 pm

I think that we really do have to focus on characters that showed up in CoS because it is one thing for a book's focus to shift enough for the title to no longer work, and it is another for the title character to be completely eliminated.

The best arguement I can give as to why Tom Riddle isn't the HPB, besides the fact that JKR said it wasn't LV, is that would have been an entirely valid title for CoS as it was written.

GryffindorGr

July 16th, 2004, 11:05 pm

Yes, but he is a full-blooded centuar. He has no blood of a human in him, just has similar looks to a human. Just like Buckbeak is not half horse half eagle, but a hippogriff.

Firenze being kicked out of forest symbolized that the centaurs were on the light side, but viewed them as the lesser of two evils. Joining Dumbledore was still viewed as a tratiorous action.

Postingly,

~-Angel Spirit-~
But wouldn't a centaur just be called a Centaur because they are half horse and half man? That's why the labeled name. (what I'm getting at is the "label" placed on these half bloods)
I mean a giant, well, Hagrid is half blood, and a candidate for the HBP but is a giant human? I mean, they would be called human not giants.
Since the origin of giants come from the (I'm taking this from the bible literature) mating of angel and human it therefore was forbidden and then the label of the "giants" came in. They were much bigger than their human mothers and angel fathers.

Dr Hesper

July 16th, 2004, 11:12 pm

BTW gang, I apologize if my last couple of posts seemed a bit....intense. I mean no offense to anyone. However during my latest 'venting' session, I mentioned something quite by accident.

'What if'...the HBP turned out to be the title of a book that Harry finds? Or what if it is the name of a magical figurine that Harry located...something that might help him in his adventure?

Does our HBP have to be a character? Can it be a magical item?

:)

Cheezewiz_911

July 16th, 2004, 11:54 pm

INITIAL CRITERIA FOR TESTING CANDIDATE PLAUSIBILITY:
1. Are they male?
2. Are they half blood (although there is still some debate as to JKR’s meaning of this)?
3. How could they be a prince?
4. Did they appear in book 2?
5. Is there a storyline plot for them?

From what you guys are saying is that it can be a new character but they had to have been in book 2. I think somebody said this earlier but what if it is a prince that is ruling over half-bloods but isn't necesarily one. And J.K. Rowling could mean prince to symbolize leadership or a male, it doesn't have to be royalty or something.

Neddlie

July 17th, 2004, 12:06 am

My mom said something funny. She said that the Half-Blood Prince could have half blood and half sap, and that the Whopping Willow was a wizard that was turned into a tree. She also said that the Whomppin Willow might be the dark wizard Grindelwald that Professor Dumbledore defeated.

Cheezewiz_911

July 17th, 2004, 12:12 am

Now that you say it. It is kind of probable because if they planted it the same year as lupin went to school then how did it grow so fast. Unless of course they used a spell on it. Sorry if I got of topic.

Maybe J.K. Rowling is trying to trick us in thinking the HBP is human when it could be a magical animal.

angel spirit

July 17th, 2004, 12:27 am

But wouldn't a centaur just be called a Centaur because they are half horse and half man? That's why the labeled name. (what I'm getting at is the "label" placed on these half bloods)
I mean a giant, well, Hagrid is half blood, and a candidate for the HBP but is a giant human? I mean, they would be called human not giants.
Since the origin of giants come from the (I'm taking this from the bible literature) mating of angel and human it therefore was forbidden and then the label of the "giants" came in. They were much bigger than their human mothers and angel fathers.

Yes, I see what your saying. But that really qualify has half blood? I thought that it would be more like a half-species? I don't know if Hagrid would be considered a half blood either. But I found this quote in Order of the Phoenix possibly supporting it...

"Makes a diff'rence, havin' a decent family," he said. "Me dad was decent. An' your mum an' dad were decent. If they'd lived, life woulda bin diif'rent, eh?"

"Yeah... I s'pose," said Harry cautiously. Hagrid seemed to be in a very strange mood.

"Family," said Hagrid gloomily. "Whatever yeh say, blood's important...."

The Beetle at Bay, Order of the Phoenix

Maybe that was a bit of forshadowing. He might just be talking about Grawp, but it seems that he holds blood in a very high standard. Not purity, but relation. Maybe it's a half-brother of sorts. I don't know about Grawp, but I kind of liked the Gryffindor-Slytherin half-brother idea.

GryffindorGr

July 17th, 2004, 12:34 am

Yes, I see what your saying. But that really qualify has half blood? I thought that it would be more like a half-species? I don't know if Hagrid would be considered a half blood either. But I found this quote in Order of the Phoenix possibly supporting it...

"Makes a diff'rence, havin' a decent family," he said. "Me dad was decent. An' your mum an' dad were decent. If they'd lived, life woulda bin diif'rent, eh?"

"Yeah... I s'pose," said Harry cautiously. Hagrid seemed to be in a very strange mood.

"Family," said Hagrid gloomily. "Whatever yeh say, blood's important...."

The Beetle at Bay, Order of the Phoenix

Maybe that was a bit of forshadowing. He might just be talking about Grawp, but it seems that he holds blood in a very high standard. Not purity, but relation. Maybe it's a half-brother of sorts. I don't know about Grawp, but I kind of liked the Gryffindor-Slytherin half-brother idea.

But...we're talking about blood, and Centaurs have blood. The half blood of a human and the half blood of a "species?" = horse.
I just wanted to point that out.

Remember the unicorn had pure silver blood, I think the key word is blood.

ETA: oh forgot to reply to the other part:
I think in that part Hagrid was thinking of his family. He seems to be meloncholy when he talks about his mum and dad to Maxine in GoF. Plus his eagerness to be with Grawp despite their differences.

Those are good points, angel_spirit...the half brother idea you mentioned.

dr_strangelove

July 17th, 2004, 1:09 am

• Colin Creevey/Dennis Creevey --- MUGGLE BORN AS EVIDENCED BY ATTACK BY BASILISK (only attacked muggle borns)

i'm having a problem with Colin Creevey being taken off the list for being purely muggle born, for a few reasons. we never hear of his mother. Colin sends pictures home to his father, his father is shocked about his hogwarts letter, and his father is the milkman. his mother is never mentioned, and JK was definately careful with that. they never mention "parents" or anything other than "father" or "dad". now, the fact that only his father is mentioned doesn't right away tip me off that he might be half blood, but then, two books later, his little brother shows up at hogwarts... aren't muggle-born wizards rare? wouldn't it be REALLY unlikely that two wizards would come from the same muggle father, unless the mother, who is apparently not around anymore, was a witch, and never told the father or the kids. perhaps she died, or disappeared. maybe she did tell their father, and he kept it a secret, ala the dursleys & harry. whatever the possibilities, eliminating Colin Creevey from your list seems inappropriate, since salazar slitherin looked down on half-bloods and muggle-borns alike

Neddlie

July 17th, 2004, 1:09 am

Hi. A prince can be a knight and Baron too. Here are all of Prince Charles titles.

His Royal Highness The Prince Charles Philip Arthur George, Prince of Wales and Earl of Chester, Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay, Earl of Carrick, Baron of Renfrew, Lord of the Isles, Prince and Great Steward of Scotland, Knight of the Most Noble Order of the Garter, Knight of the Most Ancient and Most Noble Order of the Thistle, Knight Grand Cross of the Most Honourable Order of the Bath, Member of the Order of Merit, Knight of the Order of Australia, Member of the Queen's Service Order, Privy Counsellor, Aide-de-Camp to Her Majesty.

Jessica

July 17th, 2004, 1:34 am

i'm having a problem with Colin Creevey being taken off the list for being purely muggle born, for a few reasons. we never hear of his mother. Colin sends pictures home to his father, his father is shocked about his hogwarts letter, and his father is the milkman. his mother is never mentioned, and JK was definately careful with that. they never mention "parents" or anything other than "father" or "dad". now, the fact that only his father is mentioned doesn't right away tip me off that he might be half blood, but then, two books later, his little brother shows up at hogwarts... aren't muggle-born wizards rare? wouldn't it be REALLY unlikely that two wizards would come from the same muggle father, unless the mother, who is apparently not around anymore, was a witch, and never told the father or the kids. perhaps she died, or disappeared. maybe she did tell their father, and he kept it a secret, ala the dursleys & harry. whatever the possibilities, eliminating Colin Creevey from your list seems inappropriate, since salazar slitherin looked down on half-bloods and muggle-borns alike

I'll buy this argument. Anyone else want to weigh in?

angel spirit

July 17th, 2004, 1:39 am

I think that Colin Creevey is a possible half-blood, but if he is, what is your support for making him the Half-Blood Prince? Colin always seemed to me as a comic-relief figure and he's hardly mentioned in the fifth book. You'd think that we would be given a little info about him if he was going to be a "Prince" of sorts.

Postingly,

Angel Spirit

ComicBookWorm

July 17th, 2004, 1:59 am

MoodyMania

July 17th, 2004, 1:59 am

Frost

July 17th, 2004, 2:01 am

I've said this twice before, but in the old thread, so I'll say it again:

The HBP doesn't even necessarily need to be a literal prince. You have to think about it from all angles here. It could quite possibly be somebody's idea of an insult (probably from none other than Draco Malfoy)...used in context, it could be something to the effect of

...Draco, making the effort to step out of line and not quite accidentally run into Harry, quickly blurted out "Potter! Watch where you're going!" Then added, as an afterthought, "Ten points from Gryffindor." This caused an uproar from the surrounding Gryffindors, during which Neville jumped forward, wand pointed straight at Malfoy's heart, and yelled "Take that back, Malfoy! Take it back now, or I'll--I'll..."
"You'll what?" countered Draco, "Gonna kill me? 'Oy! Look at me, I'm Longbottom, Prince of the Half Bloods!'" This drew shrieks of laughter from the rest of the Slytherins, particularly Millicent Bulstrode...

...Yea, I know, not the best writing in the world but it was just an example. But my whole point is that maybe it's just a passing title metioned as a joke that later on becomes more significant. Like the turnaround of "Weasley is our King" from an insult to an anthem. Or "Dumbledore's Army". Something that may turn around and become a title that people respect. Which also puts forth the argument that the HBP may not have to be a half-blood at all.

-Frost

Aoweil

July 17th, 2004, 2:02 am

I think that that evidence dr_strangelove gave is enough to take Colin off of the elimination list, but I still it as unlikely that he is the HBP. Of course, I was also certain that Mark Evans was somebody important. :shrug:

Colin is male, potentially half-blooded, and he appeared in book 2.
I'm not sure how he could be a prince (though, if given some time I'm sure I could concoct something ;) ). He did appear a lot in book. He got attacked by the basilisk, and was a minor annoyance to Harry with his fangirl-like behavior.

Like I said, I think there is reason to take him off the list of those eliminated, but he ranks nest to Dung as the potential HBP. Erm...that was my to cents...

GryffindorGr

July 17th, 2004, 2:02 am

Ok, I just looked up half blood in the Oxford English dictionary. It is not hyphenated in British English only American English.

1 the relationship between people having one parent in common. 2 a person related to another in this way. 3 offensive a half-breed

Note definition 3 -- a half-breed.

The means the definition can apply to Hagrid and any other half-breed we may be introduced to. But I don't think a Centaur is truly a half-breed, they are a species apart from humans.

And seeing it this way, I don't think we have to torture into meaning the prince of the half bloods, since the hyphen is not significant.

Well then, what about looking up Half breed or more pointedly "breed"
Example:
breed ( P ) Pronunciation Key (brd)
v. bred, (brd) breed·ing, breeds
v. tr.
To produce (offspring); give birth to or hatch.
To bring about; engender: “Admission of guilt tends to breed public sympathy” (Jonathan Alter).

To cause to reproduce, especially by controlled mating and selection: breed cattle.
To develop new or improved strains in (organisms), chiefly through controlled mating and selection of offspring for desirable traits.
To inseminate or impregnate; mate with.
To rear or train; bring up: a writer who was bred in a seafaring culture.
To be the place of origin of: Austria breeds great skiers.
To produce (fissionable material) in a breeder reactor

My personal choice would be either Hagrid or DD though. More for the first.

ComicBookWorm

July 17th, 2004, 2:05 am

I'll buy this argument. Anyone else want to weigh in?
Two things about Creevey. Muggleborns aren't rare--checkout Hermione. Second, he was using a muggle camera. That's not conclusive but wouldn't he have a wizard camera otherwise?

Beyond that, I think we need a reason to believe he would become important besides the fact that he was overlooked. Even if we found out he was part of the royal family, what does that contribute to the storyline?

Dean Thomas being Regulus's son (although I disagree) adds to the story. Hagrid being royal might rally the giants on his side--maybe Grawp is there to tell him of their mother's importance. GG being royal (and Harry being an heir) would add to the storyline. I need a reason to care about Colin.

MoodyMania

July 17th, 2004, 2:06 am

ComicBookWorm

July 17th, 2004, 2:08 am

Personally I think half blood means half blood. I just thought I should point out the potential for half-breed. I think GG is the HBP.

I just wanted folks not to focus on the hyphen since it was irrelevant.

GryffindorGr

July 17th, 2004, 2:27 am

My problem is that in all the books they have never used half breed to mean the same thing as half blood. Both have seperate meanings and uses in the wizarding world. Why should they now be considered the same meaning?

Well I wouldn't rule it out but it is entirely possible that what the wizarding world defines a word as is different than what us muggles do.

I agree.

This is basically a fantasy book with lots of realism in it so that's why I am not thinking of Centaur as just limited to "people" because obviously, there is the Hagrid and the Dobby issue. Just because he's a species of horse doesn't mean he's out of the running.
(it just says half blood)
Although...the "prince" part is still questionable in all the candidates.

angel spirit

July 17th, 2004, 2:39 am

I'm reposting my Title Analysis paper, because I think it will kind of lend a hand now that the discussion is better paced.

Now for my own opinion... Please feel free to disagree...

Title Analysis

Harry Potter and the Philospher's Stone

This title brings on a sense of magic. Even though it is just talking about a rock, when it comes down to it, it seems to roll off the tongue. At first glance, it promotes a sense of smoothness. Same with it's english counterpart, if not enhancing the magical feeling. We know that this stone and Harry Potter will come in contact, and that when they do, it will be a magical moment. Much like the actual happenings of the book.

Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets

This title gives the feeling of foreboding. Chamber isn't exactly the friendliest of words, compared to if she had used "room" or "humble abode". It gives of a negative sense, as if this chamber is going to be an awe-inspiring place of terrible power. Which corresponds to the definition of the books.

Harry Potter and Prisoner of Azkaban

In my opinion, this book gives off the most negative connotation of all six titles. Whoever this "Prisoner" is, it sounds like that Harry and him/her will have some type of conflict. Most adults make a automatic comparison with Alcatraz, a prison off the coast of San Francisco. Once home to the most dangerous criminals, a prison that was almost inescapable. Sound familiar?

Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire

This title is the dodgiest of the bunch. It could be refering to several things. Is it a weapon that Harry wields? Maybe it's a magical object like the stone. It seems to have neither a positive nor negitive feel to it. Giving it a sense of unimportance though.

Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix

The name gives off warmth and radiance. The title does not give off foreboding or danger, it seems like a lost friend. Phoenix is the key word. In mythology the phoenix was always viewed as a light symbol of everlasting life. A beautiful golden bird that was as old as time. The order was also a warm place, full of people who were fighting for a common goal.

Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince

The title gives off a feeling of aloofness. In both the literal and figurative sense, it gives off a feel of a greater power with a fault. A person that is distant, hiding under their title. Whoever the "Half Blood Prince" is, it is not going to be a warm character, and neither a truely cold soul. It will be someone aloof, who has a fault that they are hiding desperatly.

Is anyone thinking Severus Snape?

dr_strangelove

July 17th, 2004, 2:46 am

Two things about Creevey. Muggleborns aren't rare--checkout Hermione. Second, he was using a muggle camera. That's not conclusive but wouldn't he have a wizard camera otherwise?

answer to first: muggleborn wizards are rare, as wizards in general seem fairly rare. from my understanding of the books, most of the population in J.K.'s world are muggles. very few people become wizards, and most of them gain their abilities through their parent's heritage. most people do NOT suddenly learn how to make broomsticks fly :)

answer to second: of course he was using a muggle camera. he was raised by his father, who is a muggle. i do not deny the muggle father, what i'm questioning is the fact that there is no information on mom, and there are two wizards in the same family, which i find highly suspicious.

answer to the remark earlier about colin being comic relief: before we learned of neville's family history, i always thought he was pretty comic... i mean, they even made a jab at this in the second film, "why does it always to me?". just because he hasn't been important doesn't mean he won't become important. both colin and his brother joined the DA in book 5, and they both showed impressive progress. and besides, colin HAS been important. primarily, he was the first human attacked by the basilisk.

mind you, this is something that only caught my attention today when i revisited GoF, and this only happened because i read out of order. i read PoA for the movie screening, and then a few weeks ago, i decided to reread CoS after JK's repeated hints. i wanted to keep reading, but i just reread PoA, so i decided to skip ahead. however, it does strike me as a very possible outcome. any ideas?

ilovebillyboyd

July 17th, 2004, 3:03 am

Well, we all know that JKR actually considered calling Chamber of Secrets 'Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince'. So...I only assume the HBP would be someone who was either introduced in book two or who had some kind of impact on the story. Thats why I think it'll be Godric Gryffindor or Tom Riddle.

ComicBookWorm

July 17th, 2004, 3:14 am

answer to first: muggleborn wizards are rare, as wizards in general seem fairly rare. from my understanding of the books, most of the population in J.K.'s world are muggles. very few people become wizards, and most of them gain their abilities through their parent's heritage. most people do NOT suddenly learn how to make broomsticks fly :)

answer to second: of course he was using a muggle camera. he was raised by his father, who is a muggle. i do not deny the muggle father, what i'm questioning is the fact that there is no information on mom, and there are two wizards in the same family, which i find highly suspicious.

answer to the remark earlier about colin being comic relief: before we learned of neville's family history, i always thought he was pretty comic... i mean, they even made a jab at this in the second film, "why does it always to me?". just because he hasn't been important doesn't mean he won't become important. both colin and his brother joined the DA in book 5, and they both showed impressive progress. and besides, colin HAS been important. primarily, he was the first human attacked by the basilisk.

mind you, this is something that only caught my attention today when i revisited GoF, and this only happened because i read out of order. i read PoA for the movie screening, and then a few weeks ago, i decided to reread CoS after JK's repeated hints. i wanted to keep reading, but i just reread PoA, so i decided to skip ahead. however, it does strike me as a very possible outcome. any ideas?

Neville and Ron haven't gotten their own books titled after them and they are obviously important to the storyline. Where does Colin fit in? Like I asked: even if he was royalty, how does that further the advanced plotline which is now concerned with a wizard war. We only have two books left and a lot of backstory to learn about the major characters, let alone suddenly start expanding the background of minor players.

We're going to learn something big about Lily. We are going to learn about the Potter's professions. We need to learn more about Harry and the other main players. Some kids are at Hogwarts just because there are more students than just the main characters. Colin needs to be central to the HBP for the title to be justified. Neville has been getting more important, no one else has.

deathfairy87

July 17th, 2004, 3:44 am

JK Rowling already said that half blood prince isn't Harry or Voldemort, and remember, Tom Riddle IS Voldemort, people tend to forget that

KDOG

July 17th, 2004, 3:50 am

wait a second,i f there is a half blood prince doesnt there have to be a half blood king??

MoodyMania

July 17th, 2004, 3:55 am

wait a second,i f there is a half blood prince doesnt there have to be a half blood king??
Actually it could also be a half blood Queen instead.

IceKat55

July 17th, 2004, 4:08 am

Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince

The title gives off a feeling of aloofness. In both the literal and figurative sense, it gives off a feel of a greater power with a fault. A person that is distant, hiding under their title. Whoever the "Half Blood Prince" is, it is not going to be a warm character, and neither a truely cold soul. It will be someone aloof, who has a fault that they are hiding desperatly.

Is anyone thinking Severus Snape?
Very interesting...and very excellent points!! I hadn't even considered Snape. Seamus was my first though, Dean Thomas my 2nd....but Snape??
:huh:

ComicBookWorm

July 17th, 2004, 4:30 am

Folks can certainly come to the conclusion that Snape is the title character, but there is nothing about being a Half Blood Prince that implies coldness or aloofness. It's a title implying leadership or royalty.

Cheezewiz_911

July 17th, 2004, 4:39 am

I don't think the title means royalty because where the heck would you find royalty in Harry Potter

Michellex657

July 17th, 2004, 4:41 am

People People People, you know JKR....the "Half Blood Prince" might not even be a person!

Jessica

July 17th, 2004, 4:51 am

Sorry to do this so late on the page:

INITIAL CRITERIA FOR TESTING CANDIDATE PLAUSIBILITY:
Due to the fact that all of the other title's have not been literally misleading -we as a group have decided to take JKR at her word as to the characteristics of the Half Blood Prince.

1. Are they male?
2. Are they half blood (although there is still some debate as to JKR’s meaning of this)?
3. How could they be a prince?
4. Did they appear in book 2?
5. Is there a storyline plot for them?

ELIMINATED
• Harry Potter --- NOT POSSIBLE PER JKR WEBSITE
• Voldemort --- NOT POSSIBLE PER JKR WEBSITE
• Dudley Dursley --- OUT OF THE RUNNING PER CoS - "DURSLEYS HAD NOT A DROP OF MAGICAL BLOOD IN THEM”
• Draco Malfoy --- NOT POSSIBLE PER JKR WEBSITE - SAYS HE IS A PUREBLOOD
• Theodore Nott --- NOT POSSIBLE PER JKR WEBSITE - SAYS HE IS A PUREBLOOD
• Colin Creevey/Dennis Creevey --- MUGGLE BORN AS EVIDENCED BY ATTACK BY BASILISK (only attacked muggle borns)
• Lockhart --- generally felt as too ludicrous
• Lee Jordan – generally felt as not possible
• Lupin --- generally agreed he was meant for book 3
• Justin Finch Fletchley: NOT POSSIBLE. MUGGLE BORN PER CoS.
• Sir Nicholas: KNOWN TO BE KNIGHT NOT PRINCE
• Bloody Baron: KNOWN TO BE BARON NOT PRINCE
• Fat Friar: KNOWN TO BE FRIAR - UNLIKELY TO ALSO BE PRINCE

THE CANDIDATES
SNAPE
For: His character obviously has a lot in store
Against: Unlikely a death eater would be a half-blood
Conclusion: POSSIBLE

HAGRID
For: he seems to have nearly all the creatures in the forest respect. He could be a leader of the creatures for the light side; we learn a lot about his past in Book 2; Giant’s although violent, may still have royalty (Royalty can exist without it being acknowledged)
Against: Giants may not have royalty; He already has a big part;
Conclusion: POSSIBLE

A NEW CHARACTER
For: All book titles so far have been about someone/thing new
Against: It was a possible title for Book 2; some claim JKR said there would be no new characters in the final book
Conclusion: POSSIBLE

DOBBY
For: We don’t know if he is halfbreed/blood
Against: He seems to have little respect amongst other elves since he was freed (but he still could be a prince);
Conclusion: POSSIBLE

DUMBLEDORE
For: We know little about his background;
Against: He already has large role;
Conclusion: ?

DUNG
For:
Against:
Conclusion:

GODRIC GRYFFINDOR
For: A lot of mention towards legend in the whole series; lots of references to Godric (Hollow, colour of stars, the sword); had prominent mention in book 2; as a founder of a school could possibly be a prince
Against: Side-argument as to whether Harry is his heir; too much past-focussed and not forward-moving for the story;
Conclusion: VERY POSSIBLE

SALAZAR SLYTHERIN
For: Likely to be pureblood, but remember Tom Riddle
Against:
Conclusion: POSSIBLE

SEAMUS
For: He is also a half-blood said in the first book.
Against: He just doesn't seem like a Prince(A weak response I know)
Conclusion: POSSIBLE

DEAN
For: He is a half-blood said on J.K.'s site. Which puts him in the running
Against:Practically his whole history was put on her site, which tends to suggest that it's not that important. Also said his story was sacrificed for Neville's.
Conclusion: POSSIBLE

TOM RIDDLE
For: Book 2 could very easily have been called HBP and had little story change; lots of debate over whether he is the same or different person to Voldemort; JKR could be 'pulling a Dobby’ regarding his identity; he is male and half-blood;
Against: Many simply disbelieve the ‘split-personality’ theory
Conclusion: RELUCTANTLY A POSSIBILITY AND STILL HIGHLY DEBATED

pixiegeek

July 17th, 2004, 5:07 am

Hmmm. I'm still kind of iffy about the whole GG theory. All the titles of the books are *directly, in the present* related to Harry. It just doesn't fit right to me. It seems awkward to talk about Harry Potter and the dead GG, Half Blood Prince. Its just so strange sounding...Is that making sense to anyone else?

Also, about the Tom theory, Tom and Voldy are the same. It would be a contradiction against DD to say that he was wrong in calling Voldy by Tom in OoTP. Besides, It would be dragging Voldy out too much.

I dont know, Hagrid is sounding pretty good to me right now, along with someone new, though not so much.

Yeah..

Cheezewiz_911

July 17th, 2004, 5:50 am

Why does everybody awsume the HBP is human. It can be anything. Wouldn't it be odd that a dementor or Nick Flamel were the HBP.

plinker

July 17th, 2004, 6:08 am

cedricpatrick

July 17th, 2004, 6:29 am

If you look at each of the HP books, the title names the new challenge or threat to Harry, even in OoP, the challenge was to get info. The HBP will probably be a new character, or someone only briefly mentioned before. The HBP could be a foe, not an ally. The possibilities are many.

Thats a good point, but I doubt he will actually be going against the HBP or anything, Harry doesnt oppose Half bloods.

Back to Colin Creevy, What role does he play beisides being an extra character for the sake of needing a third muggle born besides Hermy and Justin?

Carbito

July 17th, 2004, 6:31 am

from dictionary.com:
prince http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/JPG/pron.jpg (https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dprince) ( P ) Pronunciation Key (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/ahd4/pronkey.html) (prhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/ibreve.gifns)
n.

A male member of a royal family other than the monarch, especially a son of the monarch.
A man who is a ruler of a principality.
A hereditary male ruler; a king.

A nobleman of varying status or rank.
An outstanding man, especially in a particular group or class: a merchant prince.
So far the majority of theories relating to who the HBP is seem to be following the idea that the prince is royality and are therefore examining particular characters family background. However what if it was the third description listed above. Maybe he is a "outstanding man"? If this is true then the first character that comes to mind is Dumbledore!

ComicBookWorm

July 17th, 2004, 6:35 am

I put this following information in a thread that may get shut down anyway. So I am putting it here:

He is a half blood prince. The term half blood has been used consistently throughout the series to mean someone who has two muggle grandparents, and two magical grandparents. I did it that way to keep Harry half blood as well as Tom Riddle, since they have both been referred to that way. Neither of them is the title character, but they are good examples. I don't know what someone with three magical grandparents is called, we don't have any examples.

So he is a half blood and a prince. A prince can be a leader or royalty. I don't think it is a perjorative title like prince of the half bloods (given in derision to someone who likes or champions half bloods) because that would trialize the book title. And since there are muggleborns to champion as well as half bloods, I don't see it just meaning his role as champion of only the half bloods to the exclusion of the muggleborns. Therefore I think he is really a prince who is a half blood.

I don't think per se that just being royal will be of much use in the fight again the dark wizards. There has to be something special about him, and being royal is secondary.

And there is nothing keeping the HBP from being an historical figure or even a legend, as long as he contributes significantly in some way to the resolution of the ongoing struggle.

filius

July 17th, 2004, 11:29 am

I think Hagrid should be eliminated. I agree that he is a half-blood. But does he have any royalty? Giants are not counted are they. They are barbaric. So it can't be on his mother's side. His father, if he was a royalty, would not have married a giantess. Princes are not usually exposed to giants and the sort.

Samwise91

July 17th, 2004, 11:43 am

hang on hang on, how do we know if good old rowling isnt playing a game with us, i mean, she can lie to us all she wants, and she can just keep us wondering, when it can be harry after all, im not going to say it is harry, but it could be, i like the idea of dean or seamus being it, but it might be cho for all we know, mind i think that the title gives away if its a boy or a girl, btw if anyones stupid enough to believe its snape ur sorely mistaken, hes a pureblood, hes in slytherin, voldemort was an exception because he was slytherins relative, so he could go in being a halfblood, hagrid is just not sensible, couldnt be lupin, cos hes a pureblood (as far as i know)it could be james potter, well never know until jk tells us, but then again she could be lieing

filius

July 17th, 2004, 1:04 pm

She specifically said that it wasn't him. So, no way is it Harry. Why would Jk make such a big lie? Cho is a girl. We are talking about the Half-blood prince not the Half-blood princess!

clairey

July 17th, 2004, 1:20 pm

What about Cedric?
Maybe Voldy had an ulterior motive and knew that cedric would reach the end of the maze with Harry, and knew it would be a "Harry" thing to suggest lifting it together. I've not thought about the fact that Cedric wasn't stalled in the maze before. This would certainly answer the question:
"Why didn't Crouch make an everyday item a portkey?"
Maybe it would be too hard to get Harry and Cedric to touch the same thing at the same time...

filius

July 17th, 2004, 1:24 pm

What about Cedric?
Maybe Voldy knew that cedric would reach the end of the maze with Harry, and knew it would be a "Harry" thing to suggest lifting it together. T

Voldemort wouldn't know. He does not know Cedric. Moody knew that Harry would NOT get there first so he got rid of Fleur and Krum. But he couldn't get rid of Cedric because Harry saved him. Cedric is a pure blood isn't he? So, i don't think it could be Cedric.

Cheezewiz_911

July 17th, 2004, 3:26 pm

t was a complete surprise for cedric to even come out with Harry.

filius

July 17th, 2004, 3:49 pm

Why was it a surprise? They were quite friendly with each other despite their being competators. Harry did a favour for Cedric so ha had to repay Harry back. It wasn't fair that Harry could have won the cup while Cedric was being killed by a spider. Nor would it be fair if Harry's leg was crushed so he could not beat the person who he had just saved. So, Cedric thought of the most fair thing to do.

Cheezewiz_911

July 17th, 2004, 3:58 pm

If cedric did live do you think the ministry would have believed them then about the return of Lord Voldemort? Sorry if this is of topic

filius

July 17th, 2004, 4:12 pm

I think Fudge would have come up with another crackpot theory like Harry brain washed Cedric. But i think Mr. Diggory would hjave believed his son and gone to DD's side.

michaela

July 17th, 2004, 4:14 pm

I don't think the Ministry would of believed them. Two teenagers still doesn't seem like a convincing story to people who are so ignorant.

Witflick

July 17th, 2004, 5:26 pm

filius

July 17th, 2004, 5:31 pm

I have never known JK to deliberately mislead her fans, though. I think that we can be safe to eliminate Harry and Voldemort because she told us they aren't the HBP. If we can't trust JK's word, we're in trouble. :p

Witflick.

I absolutely agree! That would be the biggest lie in all history of literature!

Leahface

July 17th, 2004, 5:50 pm

My first thought was crookshank... because I mean we know from Rowlings site said that crookshank is not just cat, crookshank is able to communicate with most animals, is able to tell wether an animal is real, and is very smart, but than I realized that he wasnt introduced until the third book, which makes it complicated because Rowling said that she had considered the Title for the second book. So than why not doby? he was introduced into the second novel, and had a large role. Maybe Doby is only partial house elf and that is why he acts different and doesnt always obey the rules of the other house elfs... that is a piece of info that could have been left out.

Padfoot471

July 17th, 2004, 6:24 pm

Did anyone think it could possibly be Sirius? It's quite far-fetched but JKR said she had killed him for a reason (I have no idea how that could connect to him being the HBP). It is a possibility.

jaypee

July 17th, 2004, 6:37 pm

Whys isn't it Half Blood Prince rather than Half-Blood Prince?

(I hate JK rowling!)
(Until she releases Book 6, that is.) :)

Witflick

July 17th, 2004, 6:47 pm

Did anyone think it could possibly be Sirius? It's quite far-fetched but JKR said she had killed him for a reason (I have no idea how that could connect to him being the HBP). It is a possibility. He was pure-blooded though, so I think that would eliminate him (unless we look at the title as meaning Prince of the Half Bloods, and not Half Blooded Prince).

Witflick.

Cheezewiz_911

July 17th, 2004, 7:07 pm

Dude it would be weird if it was Scabbers. He was in Gryffindor and he could have been half-blooded. Or you can look at him this way he can turn into a rat making him half-rat.

FTCLTL

July 17th, 2004, 7:16 pm

Dude it would be weird if it was Scabbers. He was in Gryffindor and he could have been half-blooded.

Peter Pettigrew, that's a very interesting theory. He was noticably absent from the last book, and his character hasn't really been expanded upon as much as it could be. Only problem is he doesn't have much to do with book two..

As far as the Riddle idea goes, Dumbledore called him Tom, and Doby never said they were different people, just that he could be freely named when he was Tom Riddle, and therefore not He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named. JKR explicitly said Voldy, so it's not Riddle either.

filius

July 17th, 2004, 7:19 pm

Voldemort is the only Half blood in his "inner circle". He would not let anyone from Gryffindor in- especially if they were half blood. So, i think Wormtail is a pure blood and he wanted Voldemort's protection. Half blood prince not half rat Cheezewiz :D. I think the person has to be of royalty since his title is half blood prince. Sirius is a pure blood so he is not the HBP but he may know the person who is. Is james a pure blood? If he was then Sirius and him would have been related but if they were related, Sirius would have told Harry. Since he didn't, we can assume that James is a half blood. Maybe he is the half blood prince? I'm not sure about my own theory. What do you think of James as the HBP?

stormcat_5000

July 17th, 2004, 7:28 pm

I think we have to take into consideration that many of the characters that are possible to be H.B.P are more like Half Blood kings! for example Godric Gryffidor he sounds to me to be a half blood king more than a half blood prince. I mean to say that some of the characters have a superiour emminence than other.

Cheezewiz_911

July 17th, 2004, 7:31 pm

That can work but it has one problem, if James was the HBP then Harry would enherit the thrown. That defise what J.K. Rowling said. But she could be using word games on us.

angel spirit

July 17th, 2004, 7:33 pm

Well, if indeed James was the half blood Prince, wouldn't Harry have recieved the title? Unless James is still alive... which is an impossibility said by J.K. on her site. Harry's parents are dead. Through and through.

Has anyone thought about Lupin as the half-blood prince? He is a said half-blood, and J.K. could've taken him out in the second book. It's a long shot, but who knows?

Cheezewiz_911

July 17th, 2004, 7:36 pm

Why would Lupin be introduced in the second book. That would have ruined the plot of the third book all together.

filius

July 17th, 2004, 7:39 pm

How would he have known that this was his title? I don't think the HBP was know as the HBP. I think it is just a title but not a "kingdom" or "monarchy". Who said that the HBP has to be alive? But i agree that Harry's parents are dead.

Cheezewiz_911

July 17th, 2004, 7:42 pm

How about Aragog. He isn't half-blood (I think) but he does rule his group of Acromantulas. J.K. Rowling did say she was going to bring Aragog back.

Manu

July 17th, 2004, 7:47 pm

What really intrigues me is that in OoP there's at least two mentions to "the Noble house of Black", Sirius' family. Noble house? could a Prince come from a Noble family?? but then most of Sirius' family is pure blood, unless there is a secret branch to the family tree????

I think we will still see or hear a lot of Sirius, after all JKR a while ago said the following:

[...]
What makes some witches/wizards become ghosts after they die and some not?
You don't really find that out until Book VII, but I can say that the happiest people do not become ghosts. As you might guess, Moaning Myrtle!

[...]

if that is true then that has to be in relation with Sirius .... or maybe Harry's parents...

Cheezewiz_911

July 17th, 2004, 7:51 pm

Noble can be conted as a prince because it says so on some dictionary website.

filius

July 17th, 2004, 8:01 pm

I didn't mean the word noble in that way. Aragog is an acromantula. He is not the HBP. See fantastic beasts... I don't think creatures can be the HBP is he is to be an important part of the book. Aragog may be used as a weapon against Voldemort but he is NOT the HBP.

Cheezewiz_911

July 17th, 2004, 8:04 pm

You never know.

filius

July 17th, 2004, 8:08 pm

I do know! Aragog is an acromantula. I beleve mugglenet has lots of information on this. It is located on the book 6 section if you take a look.

Cheezewiz_911

July 17th, 2004, 8:10 pm

I know he is an acromantula but he might be HBP but that's a 2.5% in my book.

SquibOnline

July 17th, 2004, 8:12 pm

I think it's Dudley - he felt the dementors - muggles can't

Cheezewiz_911

July 17th, 2004, 8:35 pm

I think it's Dudley - he felt the dementors - muggles can't

Muggles can feel dementors but they just can't see them.

In OotP Page 837 dumbledore says, "you arrived at Hogwarts neither happy nor as well nourished as I would have liked, perhaps, yet alive and healthy. You are not a pampered little prince..."

Then it makes Dudley the HBP. Remember how J.K. Rowling said a Dursley would have magical powers then Petunia can become a witch making him a half-blooded prince. He could also get magical powers and be Prince over half bloods or a prince over one half blood, Harry Potter.
So what do you guy's think?

MoodyMania

July 17th, 2004, 8:42 pm

Muggles can feel dementors but they just can't see them.

In OotP Page 837 dumbledore says, "you arrived at Hogwarts neither happy nor as well nourished as I would have liked, perhaps, yet alive and healthy. You are not a pampered little prince..."

Then it makes Dudley the HBP. Remember how J.K. Rowling said a Dursley would have magical powers then Petunia can become a witch making him a half-blooded prince. He could also get magical powers and be Prince over half bloods or a prince over one half blood, Harry Potter.
So what do you guy's think?
Where did Jo say a Dursley would becom magical? I remember something about someone developing magic later in life but I don't recall her ever saying who it would be.

Cheezewiz_911

July 17th, 2004, 8:45 pm

She said that in an interview.

whizbang121

July 17th, 2004, 8:48 pm

All she said about Dudley was that we would learn why he was so affected by dementors. And we have no idea what house Pettigrew was in because the in the question posed, Lupin was mentioned twice and Pettigrew not at all. Whether JKR noticed that or not is another question. Maybe she'll clarify that in August. I'd also like to know if James was a pureblood.

Blacks Beauty

July 17th, 2004, 9:38 pm

Been lurking awhile – but I’m also not convinced we can wipe out anyone who wasn't in book 2. I posted a theory back in thread 2 that, I think, gave an example of how someone could be the HBP but not play a significant role in CoS. My theory was that Sirius was Riddle’s son and the HPB, and that he was going to be introduced in book 2 as a red herring as to who was opening the CoS. But then she decided that it would be too complicated to introduce all those relationships and geneology, not to mention expecting Harry to trust him by book 4, so she essentially left him out until book 3 – resulting in the need to change the title, though the story didn’t change significantly. That theory was enough to make me think it’s possible to be someone we didn’t see in book 2.

I’m not sure about the “prince” thing either, because I keep wondering if the HBP has something to do with the Order. Kind of like the leader of the Loyal Order of Water Buffalo is the Grand Poohbah, the leader of the Order of the Pheonix (Dumbledore) is the King of the Half Bloods. The prince is his second-in-command – or his replacement when he gets killed. :scared: That said…
Did anyone think it could possibly be Sirius? It's quite far-fetched but JKR said she had killed him for a reason (I have no idea how that could connect to him being the HBP). It is a possibility.As a matter of fact, I do. But I have not had time to work it all out in a completely convincing way yet. My aforementioned “Sirius as Riddle’s son” theory was troubled by Dumbledore’s statement that Voldemort was the last ancestor (not heir) of Slytherin and I haven’t figured a way around that. But the “noble house of Black,” the statements about Blacks being like royalty, and Regulus meaning king (is Sirius the prince?) still stick in my mind.

Also – the clue that the opening chapter of book 6 could have been in book 1, 3 or 5; it makes some sense that more about Sirius could have fit in any of these three books – 1) Sirius’ name mentioned in passing when Harry is first taken to the Dursleys; 3) the first real introduction to Sirius or 5) when we learn more about the Black family at Grimmauld Place.

Of course, most of you think Sirius is dead, but maybe not (current discussion is here (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=28927)). There’s the nagging fact that we don’t have a body, but there are some other things too that may relate to the HPB – starting with Harry’s visions and how it may relate to the prophecies. I’m summarizing here, but I think the only vision Harry had that we are led to believe is staged is the one of Sirius. But what is interesting about that vision is that Voldemort tells Sirius "I can't take it, but you can." And when Harry reaches the prophecy room, Malfoy assumes Dumbledore told Harry what the prophecies are and how they work. So if Malfoy, and by extension Voldemort, assumes Harry knows how they work, why have a staged vision of Sirius being told to take the prophecy? Harry would know that Sirius couldn’t get it.

Unless...there is a second prophecy regarding Sirius, and the event actually occurred. The prophecy was in the same row as Harry’s prophecy (because Harry knew how to get there from the vision) and we heard part of that second prophecy:

"... at the solstice will come a new..." said the figure of an old bearded man.Sirius is the Dog Star, and it rises at the summer solstice. So perhaps Sirius will return in some way at the summer solstice and he becomes as the new Half-Blood Prince – either in the sense that he is a champion for the half-bloods; or there is something we don’t know yet about Mr. And Mrs. Black. (Note that it was they who were blasting half-bloods off the tapestry – they would hardly do so to themselves if they were so unfortunate to have a muggle grandparent.)

And then there is the way Bellatrix never calls him "Sirius." Could that be similar to the way the most wizards never call Voldemort by his name -- that he is some particular threat to her and/or Voldemort? And that threat is detailed in the prophecy, and is why Dumbledore is so eager to protect Sirius in OotP? Everyone assumes that "he is below" refers to Dumbledore, but when I read it, I thought it was Sirius. I don't know, just food for thought...

Edit: I didn't put it in the for/against format because technically it doesn't fit the preset criteria -- so no offense taken if nobody wants to discuss it. (I will still like it anyway. :D)

Asara

July 17th, 2004, 9:56 pm

I don't think this theory's been discussed so I'll give it a go but before I do... Just because this name was considered for the 2nd book doesn't it's the same character...it could have been Tom in the CoS context. JKR may have liked the name and wanted to use it and it obviously has some relevance in this book but it could be a completely different calendar. Anyway...

MR RON WEASLEY

For:
1) Could be the heir of GG as he comes from a long-standing wizard family all of which (as far as we...or at least I know) have been in his house.
2) He stands out just by being Harry's friend. Hermione has super intelligence but the only place Ron can really hold his own is wizard chess. I think there should be something more to him.
3) His dad really likes muggles (going for the prince of half bloods rather than half blooded prince thing here) and there's much suspicion that he has a thing for muggle-born Hermione.
4) He's a well developed character already so it wouldn't seem as contrived as if someone that's only been mention in passing popped up as a prince.
5) Arthur's named is said to have come from KING Arthur
6) I'm sure there are more things that I've forgotten...help me out

Against:
1) Why would he be heir and not one of his brothers
2) As of yet I haven't found any hinting quotage but I'll try to find some
3) He's a rather large character already. but who says the HBP has to have a huge part. The GoF didn't have a huge part in itself but there's still a book with it's name.

[Sirius is the Dog Star, and it rises at the summer solstice. So perhaps Sirius will return in some way at the summer solstice and he becomes as the new Half-Blood Prince]

I love that theory :)

Neddlie

July 17th, 2004, 10:11 pm

HI. Justin Finch-Fletchley was going to go to Eton, the same school Prince William went to, before he got his hogwarts letter. Maybe his dad is part of the muggle royal family and his mom is an orphaned-squib who didn't know anything about the magic world.

Cheezewiz_911

July 17th, 2004, 11:02 pm

I reall doute that because he would have to know way more about the wizarding. He probably knew nothing.

pixiegeek

July 17th, 2004, 11:11 pm

Wow, Black Beauty, that was impressive. I can really see that happening, I've been looking for an excuse for him to come back.

I think it can obviously NOT be Harry, considering Jo said herself it wasn't, and besides that, think about this:

"Harry Potter and Harry Potter"....uhhhhh. No.

Cheezewiz_911

July 17th, 2004, 11:16 pm

That sounds so funny. :elaugh:

Jessica

July 17th, 2004, 11:27 pm

(the list)

INITIAL CRITERIA FOR TESTING CANDIDATE PLAUSIBILITY:
Due to the fact that all of the other title's have not been literally misleading -we as a group have decided to take JKR at her word as to the characteristics of the Half Blood Prince.

1. Are they male?
2. Are they half blood (although there is still some debate as to JKR’s meaning of this)?
3. How could they be a prince?
4. Did they appear in book 2?
5. Is there a storyline plot for them?

ELIMINATED
• Harry Potter --- NOT POSSIBLE PER JKR WEBSITE
• Voldemort --- NOT POSSIBLE PER JKR WEBSITE
• Dudley Dursley --- OUT OF THE RUNNING PER CoS - "DURSLEYS HAD NOT A DROP OF MAGICAL BLOOD IN THEM”
• Draco Malfoy --- NOT POSSIBLE PER JKR WEBSITE - SAYS HE IS A PUREBLOOD
• Theodore Nott --- NOT POSSIBLE PER JKR WEBSITE - SAYS HE IS A PUREBLOOD
• Colin Creevey/Dennis Creevey --- MUGGLE BORN AS EVIDENCED BY ATTACK BY BASILISK (only attacked muggle borns)
• Lockhart --- generally felt as too ludicrous
• Lee Jordan – generally felt as not possible
• Lupin --- generally agreed he was meant for book 3
• Justin Finch Fletchley: NOT POSSIBLE. MUGGLE BORN PER CoS.
• Sir Nicholas: KNOWN TO BE KNIGHT NOT PRINCE
• Bloody Baron: KNOWN TO BE BARON NOT PRINCE
• Fat Friar: KNOWN TO BE FRIAR - UNLIKELY TO ALSO BE PRINCE

THE CANDIDATES
SNAPE
For: His character obviously has a lot in store
Against: Unlikely a death eater would be a half-blood
Conclusion: POSSIBLE

HAGRID
For: he seems to have nearly all the creatures in the forest respect. He could be a leader of the creatures for the light side; we learn a lot about his past in Book 2; Giant’s although violent, may still have royalty (Royalty can exist without it being acknowledged)
Against: Giants may not have royalty; He already has a big part;
Conclusion: POSSIBLE

A NEW CHARACTER
For: All book titles so far have been about someone/thing new
Against: It was a possible title for Book 2; some claim JKR said there would be no new characters in the final book
Conclusion: POSSIBLE

DOBBY
For: We don’t know if he is halfbreed/blood
Against: He seems to have little respect amongst other elves since he was freed (but he still could be a prince);
Conclusion: POSSIBLE

DUMBLEDORE
For: We know little about his background;
Against: He already has large role;
Conclusion: ?

DUNG
For:
Against:
Conclusion:

GODRIC GRYFFINDOR
For: A lot of mention towards legend in the whole series; lots of references to Godric (Hollow, colour of stars, the sword); had prominent mention in book 2; as a founder of a school could possibly be a prince
Against: Side-argument as to whether Harry is his heir; too much past-focussed and not forward-moving for the story;
Conclusion: VERY POSSIBLE

SALAZAR SLYTHERIN
For: Likely to be pureblood, but remember Tom Riddle
Against:
Conclusion: POSSIBLE

SEAMUS
For: He is also a half-blood said in the first book.
Against: He just doesn't seem like a Prince(A weak response I know)
Conclusion: POSSIBLE

DEAN
For: He is a half-blood said on J.K.'s site. Which puts him in the running
Against:Practically his whole history was put on her site, which tends to suggest that it's not that important. Also said his story was sacrificed for Neville's.
Conclusion: POSSIBLE

TOM RIDDLE
For: Book 2 could very easily have been called HBP and had little story change; lots of debate over whether he is the same or different person to Voldemort; JKR could be 'pulling a Dobby’ regarding his identity; he is male and half-blood;
Against: Many simply disbelieve the ‘split-personality’ theory
Conclusion: RELUCTANTLY A POSSIBILITY AND STILL HIGHLY DEBATED