Innocence and Azkaban

[Scarlet Tears]

*I did a fairly thorough search before posting this, so I apologize in advance if there is already a thread about it. The one real reference I found to it was a mention briefly here (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=16474&page=1&pp=30), but since it was not discussed in depth, I assume that it is safe to bring it up in a separate thread. I could be wrong, though.*

While reading the Prisoner of Azkaban, I came across a passage in which Hagrid describes his experience at Azkaban when he was sent their during the attacks on muggleborns in the Chamber of Secrets. It's on page 220-221 of the US version:

"never bin anywhere like it. Thought I was goin' mad. Kep' goin' over horrible stuff in me mind... the day I got expelled from Hogwarts... day me dad died... day I had ter let Norbert go...."

"Yeh can' really remember who yeh are after a while. An' yeh can' see the point o' livin' at all. I used ter hope I'd jus' die in me sleep...."
"But you were innocent!" said Hermione.
Hagrid snorted.
"Think that matters to them? They don' care. Long as they've got a couple o' hundred humans stuck there with 'em, they can leech all the happiness out of 'em, they don' give a **** who's guilty an' who's not."

Then later, on page 371, Sirius goes on to tell us that knowing that he was innocent helped keep him sane. Here is the exact quote:

"I think the only reason I never lost my mind is that I knew I was innocent. That wasn't a happy thought, so the dementors couldn't suck it out of me... but it kept me sane and knowing who I am... helped me keep my powers..."

He goes on to explain that when it became too much for him, he would transform into a dog, but I am still unsure as to whether this also helped prevent him from going insane or if it was just to make sure that the Dementors didn't suspect that he wasn't as affected by them as other prisoners. As he stated on page 371:

"So when it all became.... too much... I could transform in my cell... become a dog. Dementors can't see, you know...." He swallowed. "They feel their way toward people by feeding off their emotions.... They could tell that my feelings were less - less human, less complex when I was a dog.. but they thought, of course, that I was losing my mind like everyone else in there, so it didn't trouble them."

So basically, my question is, why was Sirius able to maintain his sanity in Azkaban, while Hagrid, though he was only there a short period of time, felt like he was going insane? Both of them knew that they were innocent, yet Sirius said that this helped keep him sane, while Hagrid was completely overwhelmed and miserable. Do you believe that it had something to do with Sirius being able to transform, or do Dementors effect each wizard completely differently?

On a related note, is it possible that there are other innocent people in Azkaban that have remained sane because of of the fact that they are innocent, or do you think that they would have lost their minds?

Feel free to share any thoughts.

[FredWeasleyJr]

not everyone would be able to remain on that one thought, sirius was obviously beat up after bein in azkaban n i dont mean that litterally. i dont think hagrid would have lost his mind like most do because hes innocent, well never no tho because he was only in there for a short time

[squirpy]

So basically, my question is, why was Sirius able to maintain his sanity in Azkaban, while Hagrid, though he was only there a short period of time, felt like he was going insane?

um... I beleive that the last part of your quote answers this. Sirius's ability to transform kept him sane.

[Barbara Kennedy]

Each person handles stress differently.
Hagrid is a person whose emotions are always close to the surface.
I imagine he would have been a treat for the Dementors to feed from.
Sirius, on the other hand, could guard his emotions and suppress them, sometimes by becoming a dog, sometimes by concentrating on an obsessive thought; that he was innocent. He may not have been as attractive to the dementors as Hagrid was.

[SamIAm]

I guess Sirius was a lot more stronger in keeping his sanity compared to Hagrid. Sirius is a very sturborn person and won't give up on what he believes. But Hagrid isn't like that. Plus Sirius got help from his mom and he was an animagus so that kept him pretty sane.

Maybe there are hundreds more in Azkaban who are innocent but go insane. That's probably because the Ministry is corrupted and just send innocent and "bad" people into Azkaban. Maybe if the Ministry had a better leader, Sirius and Hagrid wouldn't have spent time in Azkaban?

[offca]

like Barbara said - it is rather a matter of personality. it is so easy to hurt Hagrid, he has very low self-esteem, so he can easily concetrate on bad memories, with no fighting to survive. while sirius is strong, and his ability to transform was a help, not a main reason he made it.

[Blackhawk0216]

I believe a lot of sirius being able to keep his sanity was him turning into a dog. In the book, it makes it sound like dementors didn't feed as much off of sirius when he was a dog, so maybe he was able to withstand it a long time (12 years). Also, i always have believed that hagrid was slightly emotionally unstable, and hagrid probably has had more worse thoughts and experiences in life, so, like harry, the dementors affected him more.

[RemusLupinFan]

I think being able to transform into a dog gave Sirius an added advantage against the dementors while he was in Azkaban. But I agree with Barbara that Sirius' personality helped him greatly to ward off the dementors and keep his mind. I also think that the nature of the situation was a lot more serious for Sirius: he had just lost everything and had been framed for 13 murders and treason against his two late best friends. On top of that, he knew exactly who had betrayed him and set him up- none other than his former friend Peter Pettigrew. I think his thoughts of being innocent were easier to hold on to once he was in Azkaban because of this.

Hagrid, on the other hand, seems to have less control over his emotions. His darker emotions (such as fear and perhaps low self-esteem) are a bit more on the surface, as was mentioned above. I do believe that Hagrid probably thought to himself that he was innocent while in Azkaban, but unlike Sirius, his other emotions probably overpowered the knowledge that he was innocent, and that's why Hagrid felt like he was losing his mind.

[grawp66]

Also, I always have believed that hagrid was slightly emotionally unstable, and hagrid probably has had more worse thoughts and experiences in life, so, like harry, the dementors affected him more.

Yes, Hagrid had alot of bad experiences, but Sirius definatly had more. Remember, he was probably in Azkaban just hours ( maybe I'm wrong, but I've always imagined it being the morning after Voldemort's attack, Nov. 1) after he found his best friends dead, lost his godson, found out that Wormtail, who he had trusted, was a traitor and let him escape. Not to mention that his childhood hadn't exactly been happy either. If those don't count as bad experiances, I don't know what does. Sirius also felt guilty for James' death, and that must have made Azkaban even worse, becasue the Dementer's flesh out bad memories.

I agree that Sirius' personality played a bigger role in his survival than his ability to transform becasue if he hadn't been able to control his emotions than he would have lost his powers entirely, including this ability, as most wizards in Azkaban do. He said that the thought that he was innocent sustained him; "helped me keep my powers."

Sirius is a much more instense person than Hagrid; when he knows he has to do something he can't rest until it's done. It becomes a sort of obesston, as he admits when he says "it was as though someone had lit a fire in my head."
Hagrid accepts things much more easily, and, like he accepted Buckbeak's fate, he might have accepted his own, and not tried to fight it like Sirius did; "I used ta hope I'd jus' die in me sleep."

The fact that Sirius knew who the real traitor was also would have helped him. He actually had a solid person to concentrate on. Hagrid did not. He didn't know who had actually opened the Chamber of Secrets.

And, frankly, we don't know how Sirius actually felt while he was in Azkaban -he never told us the way Hagrid did. He could have felt like he was going mad too, and that's when he concentrated on being innocent or, later, transformed.

So, all in all, I think becoming a dog wasn't the main reason Sirius didn't go insane, because he would have lost that power in the first place if he hadn't had other things to sustain him.

[Romy]

Plus Sirius got help from his mom and he was an animagus so that kept him pretty sane.

His mum?! Most certainly not. But I agree with grwap66, you can feel like going insane long before you do. You can feel hunger long before you starve, so maybe Hagrid would have been able to keep his sanity longer than he thought.

[TaraBrady]

I wouldn't say unstable, but Hagrid's pretty sensitive and emotionally vulnerable, especially compared with Sirius. The knowledge of his innocence would have had a different meaning for Hagrid than for Sirius, as well; Sirius would have been more angry at being falsely accused and at Pettigrew for framing him, but Hagrid would, I think, have been more hurt that anyone would think that he would want to harm children. So it would be a less 'neutral' thought for Hagrid than for Sirius.

[Incanus]

Wizards react differently to the dementors. Look, Harry was totally miserable and unhappy when the dementors were in the train. But Ron and Hermione were not as affected as Harry.
Hagrid is a complex person. If I'm not wrong, he was not well accepted by neither giants nor wizards. He was thrown out from Hogwarts. Then he gets a nice job in Hogwarts, but they take him to Azkaban thinking he was guilty to have petrified muggleborns. He had a life not exactly good. Doesn't surprise me that the dementors affected him that much.
Sirius. Sirius was popular at school. He ran away from his family, which he hated, when he was 16 and was welcomed (?) by his best friend's family. A few years later, he was the godfather of his best friend's son. When he was arrested, he knew he was innocent and probably thought that killed the man who betrayed his best friends. He is not the kind of person that is easily affected by the dementors. And, let's not forget, he was an animagus, and the dementors couldn't suck the animal's emotions, could they?



And off-topic question: In the books, does Hagrid speaks like in Scarlet Tears' post?

[Barbara Kennedy]

Yes, at least in the English versions of the books, Hagrid does speak with an accent like that.

[squirpy]

According to the books, there are two things that kept Sirius sane: His ability to transform and his knowledge that he was innocent (not a happy thought - so the dementors couldn't take it).

[grawp66]

Hagrid is a complex person. If I'm not wrong, he was not well accepted by neither giants nor wizards. He was thrown out from Hogwarts. Then he gets a nice job in Hogwarts, but they take him to Azkaban thinking he was guilty to have petrified muggleborns. He had a life not exactly good. Doesn't surprise me that the dementors affected him that much.
Sirius. Sirius was popular at school. He ran away from his family, which he hated, when he was 16 and was welcomed (?) by his best friend's family. A few years later, he was the godfather of his best friend's son. When he was arrested, he knew he was innocent and probably thought that killed the man who betrayed his best friends. He is not the kind of person that is easily affected by the dementors. And, let's not forget, he was an animagus, and the dementors couldn't suck the animal's emotions, could they?

I think you're really undermining everything Sirius went through. Let's remember that he had a reason to run away from his family - his life with them must really have sucked if he left at sixteen. And, judging by his mother, his elf, his relitives, and his house, I'm very convinced it did.

As for becoming Harry's godfather - yes, that would have been a happy occasion, but don't forget that before he went to Azkaban, he lost Harry to the Dursleys, which I'm sure didn't provide any comfort in prison. There's also the little fact that he found his best friend, who he was very close to ( "You would have thought Black and Potter were brothers! Inseperable!" - POA ) dead, along with Lily, another good friend. And no, he did not think he'd killed Peter because in the Shrieking Shack, he said he saw him cutting off his finger and running into the sewer with the other rats. True, Sirius knew he was innocent, but twelve years in Azkaban would still ahve been horrible, especially since he was falsley convicted of killing his best friend. An accusations always worse when you're accused of hurting someone you love.

So I'm still pretty convinced he had worse memories than Hagrid's.

[Jocelyn A]

On a related note, is it possible that there are other innocent people in Azkaban that have remained sane because of of the fact that they are innocent, or do you think that they would have lost their minds?


In chapter 27 (Padfoot Returns) of Goblet of Fire, Sirius states:
"And I wasn't the only one who was handed straight to the dementors without trial."


With that in mind, it is very possible that Azkaban holds innocent witches and wizards. (Possible many innocent people...) I wonder if there are more, who like Sirius, have been able to keep themselves sane.

[red_fairy]

I wonder how many innocent wizards are in there? Thanks to Barty Crouch, we can't be entirely sure. I wonder if these people will play a role in future books and if so, I wonder whether they will side with Dumbledore or Voldemort.

To the original question, I think it was easier for Sirius because he is more in control over his emotions and he could turn into a dog. Hagrid really takes things to heart. When it came out that he was a half giant, he locked himself in his cabin and wouldn't come out. He wanted to resign, but Dumbledore wouldn't let him. He also was very upset when they were trying and convicted Buckbeak in Prisoner of Azkaban.

[jasper]

I think the personality differences are part of it. Also, Hagrid was only there for short stays. So that's a totally different experience than Sitius staying for years and years. Maybe Sirius would have described it more the way Hagrid did in his first months there. Maybe Hagrid would have found some different coping skills if he stayed longer.

[Shauna]

Although Hagrid does take this more personally than Sirius, Sirius is much more of a brooder. Hagrid is a bit oblivious to things at times.

Shauna

[SquibOnline]

Hagrid had a horrible past - he got expelled from hogwarts - his mum left, dad died

its similar to Harry - the dementors effect him badly because of the problems in his past.

So obviously the dementors effect wizards differently

[Gwenog Jones]

I think Hagrid is more emotional than Sirius. Hagrid gets upset very easily, and the dementors probably affected him worse.

[Incanus]

Yes, at least in the English versions of the books, Hagrid does speak with an accent like that.

Thanks, Barbara. Translations are definately a problem. In the brazilian version he speaks with a perfect "Portuguese". We lose too many thinks when not reading the original version. That's a shame. :(

[offca]

could you tell me (I know it is a little bit off topic) what kind of English Hagrid use? is it some special - from some part of England?
In Polish translation it was made different than others - just kind of older villagers language (that's the best discription I can think of).
thanks

[Barbara Kennedy]

I don't really know, being American, I would just be guessing.
I think it may be a rural-style dialect, however. If anyone could give a more definitive answer(?), I am curious to learn the right answer too.

[filius]

I think it is a bit of scottish and cockney. What do you think?

[I <3 Ron]

I wonder how many innocent wizards are in there? Thanks to Barty Crouch, we can't be entirely sure. I wonder if these people will play a role in future books and if so, I wonder whether they will side with Dumbledore or Voldemort.
With Fudge as Minister there's probably a ton of innocents in there.

Anyway...

Do you think that the fact that Hagrid is half giant factors into this? I would think that would make him have a better defense against the dementors, since he's not entirely human. Sirius talks about how non human emotions are more complex:

"So when it all became.... too much... I could transform in my cell... become a dog. Dementors can't see, you know...." He swallowed. "They feel their way toward people by feeding off their emotions.... They could tell that my feelings were less - less human, less complex when I was a dog.. but they thought, of course, that I was losing my mind like everyone else in there, so it didn't trouble them."

Also-- In the Shrieking Shack scene at the end of PoA Sirius tells Harry that it was his fault that Harry's parents died. He seemed totally convinced that it was, even though we knew it wasn't. If he was thinking these things in Azkaban, wouldn't he have gone insane, or been guilted into not transforming or something?

[Drusilla]

could you tell me (I know it is a little bit off topic) what kind of English Hagrid use? is it some special - from some part of England?
In Polish translation it was made different than others - just kind of older villagers language (that's the best discription I can think of).
thanks

JKR herself said that Hagrid's accent is a Forest of Dean one.Now what that is,I'm not quite sure,but it does sound like he's from the North of England,and the Forest of Dean is very close to where she grew up.
About remaining sane in Azkaban,I think a lot of things helped Sirius-the fact that he was an Animagus (in which form he was less affected by the Dementors than he would have been otherwise),that he had someone to direct his anger at-I agree with everyone who said those things helped him keep his mind.I don't really think it was because of any tendency of Hagrid's to wear his heart closer to his sleeve than Sirius,because Sirius as I saw him was not a restrained person at all-he was positively volatile at times,look at him in the Shrieking Shack!

[offca]

Drussilla - thank you :)

you are right - Sirus is not Snape ;-) it is Snape who can perectly control his emotions, Sirius is very easy moved.

I think when Hagrid was taken to Azkaban, throu whole way he was thinking to himself "they will kill me" "I am gone" "Nothing gonna help me" etc. but sirius - he is strong, when he feels he is right. he is a warrior, not easy to be calm down - so he fighted even in Azkaban - in different way, by saying to himself that he was innocent, that not everything was lost etc.

[Barbara Kennedy]

I'm not sure that Snape can control his emotions entirely, either.
He seems rather volatile when it comes to Sirius, but then, he has some very strong negative memories to fuel those emotions too.
We don't know the exact intensity of his emotions either, he may have been holding in more than he showed us at the time, as well. Restraint can be relative too.

[grawp66]

It's not that Sirius is less emotional than Hagrid, it's just that he's more stubborn and intense. As I mentioned in my earlier post ( way at the top ), I think Hagrid accepts things more easily, and isn't as eager to fight as Sirius.

Barbara Kennedy - Though Snape doesn't control his emotions perfectly ( and no one does ) he's much better at it than many other characters. That's why he can master Occlumency.

[imperfect prefect]

could be that the thought that "I'm innocent" would be a happy thought for most and this thought would be absorbed by the dementors. Sirius' thought of innocence is an unhappy one because he thinks himself a fool for trusting the guilty party. his anger at wormtail would help him keep sane.jst a thought

[Da_Chinkster]

Snape can control his emotions normally, but I think when it comes to Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, Prongs and the trio I think he cant contain his emotions because there is just so much hatred there.

As for innocence, I think Sirius just knew he was innocent as opposed to constantly thinking he was innocent and therefore it was no happy experience. I dont however think being innocent will help you in Azkaban. It is about your past experiences and how badly they have affected you int he past

[Incanus]

Thanks. I found really strange when I read Hagrid's quote. In the translation here he speaks perfectly. But it's hard to translate it, how could he speak Portuguese with a rural british accent?! :lol: Well, I must get used to it. I intend to read the sixth book in English, because I won't wait six months again to read the new book. :mad:

[Lincoln]

The difference between Hagrid and Sirius is largely one of attitude and willpower. Sirius is strong-headed, able to latch onto something like the fact that he was innocent and use that as an anchor. Attitude-wise, his imprisonment angered him, while Hagrid was only saddened. Hagrid also doesn't have the kind of willpower that Sirius did.

I don't think Sirius would have needed to resort to dog-form if he had only been in as long as Hagrid.

[Remus Black]

Maybe since Hagrid not as good a wizard... :p

[Scarlet Tears]

Wow, these are some outstanding posts! Great job everyone :tu:

Also, something I forgot to mention in my first post was a question about Animagi in Azkaban, specifically Sirius' account that the fact that he was able to transform into a dog helped in his effort to maintain his sanity. On page 371, he says, "So when it all became... too much... I could transform in my cell... become a dog. Dementor's can't see, you know.... They feel their way toward people by feeding off of their emotions.... They could tell that my feelings were less - less human, less complex when I was a dog... but they thought, of course, that I was losing my mind like everyone else in there, so it didn't trouble them."

Yet this does not add up to what we have observed about Animagi so far. When a wizard transforms, I was under teh impression that while they were able to physically become a specific animal, their mind, and thus their emotions, remained human. We know this because Peter, as Scabbers, knew that Sirius had escaped from Azkaban, and so he must have been able to understand English, which is clearly not something a normal rat would be able to do. Also, in the beginning of "Quidditch Through the Ages" (pg 1) it says, "No spell yet devised enables wizards to fly unaided in human form. Those few Animagi who transform into winged creatures may enjoy flight, but they are a rarity. The witch or wizard who finds him- or herself transfigured into a bat may take to the air, but, having a bat's brain, they are sure to forget where they want to go." This statement implies that being an Animagus and simply being transfigured into an animal are very different in that Animagi have the mind of the human that transformed, while humans transfigured into animals do not. If this is true, then why was Sirius' ability to change into a dog successful in making his time in Azkaban more bearable, and why were his emotions less complex as a dog, if he still had the mind of a human?

[archangel54]

Perhaps by transforming into a dog he could stop thinking as a human, like when I read a book and i get caught up i forget where and who i am because i take on one of the charcters in the book. So perhaps when sirius transforms he can escape to the mind of a dog. I don't know if i explain myself well but thats what I think.

[I <3 Ron]

Perhaps by transforming into a dog he could stop thinking as a human, like when I read a book and i get caught up i forget where and who i am because i take on one of the charcters in the book. So perhaps when sirius transforms he can escape to the mind of a dog. I don't know if i explain myself well but thats what I think.

Yes, good point. Every animagus in the book so far is described in the likes of the animal they transform into. So when they transform, they're probably more animal than human, allowing themselves to be taken over by their animal part. He can still think yes, but he has instincts like a dog.

Like in PoA before the trio goes into the Shreiking Shack, Sirius (in dog form) actually breaks Ron's leg. I doubt if he had been in human form, or completely aware, that he would have broken his leg.

Also an emphasis on the more complex emotions are when the Marauders would all transform. Lupin couldn't sense them as human, so he wouldn't try to attack them. They could carelessly go around with a werewolf.

[Lincoln]

Yeah, I think we have to assume from the information that while animagi keep their intelligence, their emotions become simpler in animal form.

[mugglewithawand]

Its basically hard to keep your innocence in that frack of a place with all those dementor all around sucking the happiness outta you which probably make pplz life miserable as ****. I think Sirius is able to stay fine because he have a strong will and can cope with it while Hagrid it might be a different case.

[offca]

Lincoln - that what I also think. they still have inteligence of a human, but their emotions are more simple.

but - when Krum was transfigurating himself into a shark - he would loose the ability to thinka as a human! he would become a shark - with shark's brain? but we saw, that he was not behaving lika a shark -- he knew what was going on around.

and back about my statement about Snape - I ment he has much greater ability to control his emotions and especialy their outside show (i do not know how to call it in English, sorry). of course he is not able to do it in 100% - he would be a robot then, not a human. but he is aware of the power of emotions - especialy the negative ones.

I think he is like a lava from vulcano - outside cold and hard like a rock, inside river of fire :)