Neville, Voldemort, and a LOT of gum v2

[PhoenixUK]

Version 1 of this thread is here (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=11803).

So we all know that Christmas of book 5, Neville recieved a gum wrapper from his mother in the closed ward. But Neville's gran says, "she must have given [him] enough of them to paper [his] bedroom." So what's with all the gum wrappers? Why so many?

First, on a cheerful note, it seems Dumbledore was wrong and Mrs. Longbottom at least does recognize her son. Anyway, my subject as under Educational Decree something or other that's all I'm allowed to discuss. Someone somewhere (sorry can't remember who or where; maybe Neville's parents, Malfoy, and Neville's memory??) brought up the fact that if the Longbottoms knew where Voldemort was that they might know more. How to defeat him perhaps? This would be a good reason for Bellatrix and company to want them out of the way. So what if the gum wrappers are supposed to be some sort of clue to Neville? Something he's missing while being ashamed, or guilty, or angry, or something else he shouldn't be?

I was giving this some thought this morning and thought I'd see if any of you guys were thinking along similar lines. So what do we know about the gum wrappers? We know Neville has lots of them so his mother probably gave him one per visit. We also know that they were for Drooble's Best Blowing Gum and were always empty. Given Rowling's style I'm almost positive all of this has a signifigance other than to gain sympathy for Neville; she did that in GoF VERY well already. Poor Nev. So.... like some popsicle sticks have jokes or little known facts, could the gum wrappers have something similar? Something that when looked at right spells out the secret to Voldemort's dowfall? Or a picture with a similar purpose? Wasn't there some trick with some number dollar bill that if you folded it right you could make it look like the Towers collapsing on 9/11? Or could Mrs. Longbottom maybe be saying that Drooble knows how to do it? There are so many possibilties. Maybe Nev's mum feels uncomfortable talking in front of his gran and it's some kind of form of communication that only she and her son can comprehend? I don't know. What do you all think? Any chances? :angry: We have to wait another couple of years to find out now. We just can't win.
Please continue your discussion here, thanks!

[Dedalus Diggle]

Oh, wow, I can be first - I wish I had something to say. I'm pretty well useless on a Friday afternoon (or Saturday, or Tueasday, or ... :lol:)

[APoetsInstinct]

Wow. I've been perusing through this thread and it seems a lot of you don't particularly care for Gran Longbottom. In my own opinion she doesn't seem that bad. Granted, Neville is rather afraid of her, but not exactly terrified. I would even put it as more of a respectful fear. She is two generations removed from Neville and is probably trying to raise Neville as she raised her son and his father, Frank. But, Neville isn't exactly like his father and can't hope to live up to him, at least in the same ways.

I found it very nice that Neville's uncle found enough time to get him the Mimbulus Mimbletonia to help nurture Neville love of Herbology. However, I believe that Gran was behind the gift and asked his uncle to get something like this for Neville. Gran couldn't be that bad if she raised a kid like Neville: thoughtful, brave to a degree, loyal to a fault, and rather bright, though he sometimes forgets it himself.

[Stayce]

I like the thought but am somewhat stopped by it when I consider that Gran is aware of the action and is she is described as being friends with important people and very smart. So why would she not see the message? As for gum wrappers they are small, empty, and easily ignored. Don't know but I do want to keep it in mind.

[Nagisa]

For the record, the famous anagram is "Gold bribe below St. Mungos

Of course, you can make a million anagrams out of that many letters. My favourite from the random anagram generator I found began "goblin ebbs Remus..."

[Prof.Blink]

hmm... I see Granny Longbottom as one of those women who has a heart of gold but like to be strict because ''it's for your own good'', a bit like Prof.McGonagall. She obviously has a lot of patience and i think she is making the best she can of a difficult situation. Neville is probably reluctant to stand up to her becasue he doesn't want to cause any more trouble for her. So he just does as he is told because he is grateful and wants to avoid losing the one person who is there for him.

My Gran used to be like that too. She liked to remind you things constantly and tell you what to do. I just let her get on with it, firstly, out of respect and secondly, because it was easier than refusing to do it. I think it's similar with Neville.

As for the Gum wrappers, well, i think they must mean something, but, i'm not entirely convinced by the ''gold bribe below st.mungos'' theory. Then again, maybe it was just JKR's way of making us feel sorry for Neville, and that's it. I'm still undecided on this one. It could just be a red herring.

[gred&forge4ever]

Does anyone think that JK could be telling us that the gum wrappers are important, as she also has gum wrappers littering the desk on the website?

[Death Eaters]

My theory is
...
.....
..
......
...
..
.
.......
..
...
....
Voldemort is allergic to gum or something in gum
OR
He has empty-gum-wrapper-phobia

[APoetsInstinct]

I have a feeling that the gum wrappers on Rowlings desk may be a little glimpse as to her frustrations writing the next book. I do believe it may be the same brand that Alice gave Neville though for some reason... don't know why. There's two different flavors too.

Or maybe she's trying to quit smoking? :) If this is the case I hope all that gum helps.

[angel spirit]

Maybe it symbolizes Alice's frustration about not being able to talk to her son. Similar to a light coma.

[Nagisa]

Where are they getting all that gum, anyway? It seems an odd thing for a hospital to give someone who's "not all there," because you're not supposed to swallow gum, and there's a good chance they'd swallow it.

[furryfreakferret]

-throws suitcases on the ground beside her- Well, guys, I'm back. Just couldn't leave my old thread for that long. Those of you new to the topic may want to go and skim our 40 pages on the topic, which can be found through search under the same name (minus the 'v2'). When I left, we were having a very intriguing conversation about Neville's dream that he was being chased by a pair of giant scissors wearing his grandmother's best hat. I can proudly say, as I have been checking out a link provided us by (I believe) Scarlet Tears, that I am NOT the only person to have had bizzarre dreams including Harry Potter characters. :D Although, there appears to be nothing on the site about being attacked by flaming purple birds.... We were under the general belief, it seemed, that the Neville's dream might signify his beginning to break out from under his grandmother's thumb and begin to become "his own man." We've noticed great improvement in Neville's confidence during the last book and some sure signs of rebellion, one being his slipping the gum wrapper into his pocket after his gran told him to throw it in the bin. There. I believe that may give you all something to discuss. So, plow on.

Also on the previous thread are various discussions about the qualities of gum and their wrappers, the potion ingredients and what they could be used for, the famous anagrams, the hidden Death Eaters, and Mimbulus mimbletonia. (I'm sure I've missed tons others, but you'll get to understand that I have a very Neville-like memory myself.)

[Kelfa21]

Hiya...it feels like were staring all over again...huh?! Kinda annoying but oh well...

Alright...I'm just making an assumption here...but the dream mentioned it was Gran's best hat...which may or may not have the signiture stuffed vulture sitting on top of it...but assuming it does:

If you dream about a vulture..or in this case a stuffed vulture...it is providing you invaluable insight into a current situation or problem...

Now this problem that Neville is having may just be related to school...or it may be something much bigger...this could be the link toward the gum wrapper issue...unfortunatly Neville had this dream before he visited to St. Mungos again...unless this dream is reacurring, which we don't know.

I also found that if you are dreaming about a hat...then you are conceling something or trying to cover something up...

I found these definitions on Dreammodes.com

[3SingMuggle]

When I left, we were having a very intriguing conversation about Neville's dream that he was being chased by a pair of giant scissors wearing his grandmother's best hat... We were under the general belief, it seemed, that the Neville's dream might signify his beginning to break out from under his grandmother's thumb and begin to become "his own man." We've noticed great improvement in Neville's confidence during the last book and some sure signs of rebellion, one being his slipping the gum wrapper into his pocket after his gran told him to throw it in the bin. There. I believe that may give you all something to discuss. So, plow on.

Also on the previous thread are various discussions about the qualities of gum and their wrappers, the potion ingredients and what they could be used for, the famous anagrams, the hidden Death Eaters, and Mimbulus mimbletonia. (I'm sure I've missed tons others, but you'll get to understand that I have a very Neville-like memory myself.)

I love Neville's new-found confidence, but his dream may symbolize his uncertainty and the haunting of his grandmother, who, as a pair of scissors, is trying to cut him away from all Neville loves.
I personally don't believe the anagrams, but think the gum wrappers are just ordinary, easy-to-find items lying around the hospital. I think Alice actually remembers Neville, and the gum wrappers are proof of that: she never gives the wrappers to anyone else. It made me think of that movie, 50 First Dates, where the blonde girl has memory-loss, but she only sings a song when she goes good with what's-his-face.
Anyway, I also think there is something going on at St. Mungo's, because after 14(?) years the Longbottom's haven't gotten any better. Now, isn't this odd? How can they make NO progress? Also, why was the Cruciatus curse used on them, while the Potter's were killed without any play? Is there a reason to keep the Longbottom's alive? Were the DE's intentionally removing their memory? Where was Neville during all this? If he was tortured too, does that explain HIS memory loss? If he was tortured, why isn't he off as bad as his parents?
I think these questions were circling around in the last thread. Hopefully we can discuss them further here. :D

[Shauna]

For the record, the famous anagram is "Gold bribe below St. Mungos

Not that this might not have significance, but if Jo *were* to use another anagram (which IMHO I don't think she'd do, but that's for another thread), why use the word "below?" Why not "at" or "in?" Those would make more sense grammatically.

I don't know if anyone has suggested this, but looking at the foreign language versions of "Drooble's Best Blowing Gum" would be helpful. I tried looking on this site: ( http://www.eulenfeder.de/int/gbframes.html ), but I couldn't find Drooble's.

Of course, you can make a million anagrams out of that many letters. My favourite from the random anagram generator I found began "goblin ebbs Remus..."

:lol:

Shauna

[DarkThunder]

I have this WACKY, crazy wierd theory... that MAYBE, just MAYBE Neville kept the wrappers because he loves his parents?

[Luna Lion]

I think Neville's parents are going to be crucial to the plot - I think the Malfoys are bribing the hospital to keep the Longbottoms there and Harry and Neville and co will have to rescue them, and then they will recover - and I think they know something that Malfoy doesn't want people to find out about!

Another thought...Have we ever seen any other characters chewing Droobles gum??? Does it have any effect on them? Maybe in small doses it has a little effect that is magnified if you are forced to eat the quantities given to the Longbottoms! I'll have to have a look for that!

[Inkymouse]

Right, I am going to apologise now for this in case it was mentioned in the original thread...my computer is slow (despite the broadband) so I didn't read the whole thread, so I could be regurgitating what someone else has said.

One theory I read on Nevilles bad memory was perhaps that a strong memory modification spell was used which damaged his memory permanently (similar to.... oh dear forgotten her name...the one in Gof anyway), this spell was used to make sure he had no memory of his parents torturers (bear in mind they were tortured for knowledge of Voldemorts wherabouts, so neville as a baby would unlikey have been of much use to them...unless they tortured neville as a child to make his parents talk...could also explain memory problems, but seems unlikely...anyway I digress)

Perhaps the bubblegum wrappers are something unconciously done by Mrs Longbottom to remind her son of something important....

But then again seems unlikely :)

[mozinha]

I think she gives him the wrappers because she likes Neville, she cares about him and maybe she doesn't even know who he is.

[APoetsInstinct]

Also, why was the Cruciatus curse used on them, while the Potter's were killed without any play? Is there a reason to keep the Longbottom's alive? Were the DE's intentionally removing their memory? Where was Neville during all this? If he was tortured too, does that explain HIS memory loss? If he was tortured, why isn't he off as bad as his parents?
I think these questions were circling around in the last thread. Hopefully we can discuss them further here. :D

The Cruciatis curse was probably used because Bellatrix Black was in charge of their torture, and possibly their failed deaths. Remember this was after Voldemort had already been cut down close to death. This is a very interesting theory that Neville's forgetfullness stems from a similar plight and I have a feeling that it may be explored in the next books. However, I also have a feeling that Neville has a huge pain threshhold because of the way he deals with the Cruciatus curse AGAIN in the Department of Mysteries in OotP. It barely phases him after it's done. Well, I'm sure it phases him, but a lot of people wouldn't be running around that quickly after it's done to them for even a short while.

[silver ink pot]

Not that this might not have significance, but if Jo *were* to use another anagram (which IMHO I don't think she'd do, but that's for another thread), why use the word "below?" Why not "at" or "in?" Those would make more sense grammatically.

I don't know if anyone has suggested this, but looking at the foreign language versions of "Drooble's Best Blowing Gum" would be helpful. I tried looking on this site: ( http://www.eulenfeder.de/int/gbframes.html ), but I couldn't find Drooble's.
:lol:

Shauna

She may have used the word "below" because that is where the gold is! There is a parallel with the Malfoys. In CoS, when Harry and Ron have taken the Polyjuice Potion and are talking to Malfoy, he tells them that his family have a secret place under their house where things are hidden. So it wouldn't surprise me if there was a secret place under St. Mungo's. The hospital is also in London, and Dumbledore says there is a scar on his knee with a perfect map of the London Underground. The Ministry of Magic is also "below" - quite deep below, and the tunnels where Harry had his hearing must be some of the oldest because they look just like Snape's Dungeon which must be very old. All these magical places in London may be connected in some "underground" way.

[codswallop]

She may have used the word "below" because that is where the gold is! There is a parallel with the Malfoys. In CoS, when Harry and Ron have taken the Polyjuice Potion and are talking to Malfoy, he tells them that his family have a secret place under their house where things are hidden. So it wouldn't surprise me if there was a secret place under St. Mungo's. The hospital is also in London, and Dumbledore says there is a scar on his knee with a perfect map of the London Underground. The Ministry of Magic is also "below" - quite deep below, and the tunnels where Harry had his hearing must be some of the oldest because they look just like Snape's Dungeon which must be very old. All these magical places in London may be connected in some "underground" way.

Most magical buildings are underground but It was explained to harry that St Mungo's had to be above ground for health reasons.....

[silver ink pot]

Most magical buildings are underground but It was explained to harry that St Mungo's had to be above ground for health reasons.....

Thanks, codswallop! I had forgotten that. However, it could be built over an ancient magical place.

[atherella]

Most magical buildings are underground but It was explained to harry that St Mungo's had to be above ground for health reasons.....

If in fact there is a place under St. Mungos, it could be more of a meeting place that most of the hospital is not even aware of. No need to worry about a patient's health down there. Just a thought. :)

[furryfreakferret]

She may have used the word "below" because that is where the gold is! There is a parallel with the Malfoys. In CoS, when Harry and Ron have taken the Polyjuice Potion and are talking to Malfoy, he tells them that his family have a secret place under their house where things are hidden. So it wouldn't surprise me if there was a secret place under St. Mungo's. The hospital is also in London, and Dumbledore says there is a scar on his knee with a perfect map of the London Underground. The Ministry of Magic is also "below" - quite deep below, and the tunnels where Harry had his hearing must be some of the oldest because they look just like Snape's Dungeon which must be very old. All these magical places in London may be connected in some "underground" way. -applauds- Oh very good inky! And hello again, by the way. You have to come join us in the Beneath the Surface thread. Or, well, one of us will certainly have to point out the Malfoy's underground chamber beneath the... drawing room floor wasn't it? Gosh! I feel so ashamed! Writing Draco fics and not catching that! -begins banging head on the wall- (In case you missed it, that was a very good post. ;) )

You know, I think it's quite possible there IS some underground something beneath St. Mungo's. Maybe the vaults at Gringotts extend that far? Maybe... vault #713 is below St. Mungo's! Which might, perhaps, explain why the gum wrappers on Jo's site have taken to aligning themselves up as they do. (For those new to the thread -- I have yet to see it myself as our computer doesn't support the site, but -- apparently, the gum wrappers, just as the site is arranging itself, form the numbers 713. Vault 713 is the Gringotts vault where the Sorcerer's Stone was kept in book 1 and, I just realized, it was broken into which might add support to the idea that things aren't all peachy-keen down there....) Anyway, I think I'm diverging....

[Kelfa21]

Vault 713 is used to keep high security items....and I don't think it would be too much to say that its only purpose was to protect the sorceror's stone....there may be something new that is being kept in that vault currently

Maybe Lucius is keeping something in that vault....now

[Dedalus Diggle]

(For those new to the thread -- I have yet to see it myself as our computer doesn't support the site, but -- apparently, the gum wrappers, just as the site is arranging itself, form the numbers 713.

You know, the thought just occurred to me that perhaps the gum wrappers on JKR's desk are a clue to an actual plot element. Of course we have all thought that perhaps they are pointing to something with the number 713 - the vault being the strongest candidate. I am suggesting that the gum wrappers Neville has been receiving have been charmed so that when they get scattered, they guide themselves to form the number 713. Neville's mama know that he will save them sentimentally and that he drops things, so he'll get the chance to see the message when he drops a number of them. The message could even be something different than 713, with the desktop just suggesting the nethod of their sorting themselves. The charm could even be only effective in a particular person's presence to keep others from discovering the message.

[sueky]

Could it not be that the Longbottoms are being 'controlled' by the gum in some way and that the antidote will come from Neville's Mimbulus plant? Or am I way off beam here?

[silver ink pot]

-applauds- Oh very good inky! And hello again, by the way. You have to come join us in the Beneath the Surface thread. Or, well, one of us will certainly have to point out the Malfoy's underground chamber beneath the... drawing room floor wasn't it?

. . . Maybe the vaults at Gringotts extend that far? Maybe... vault #713 is below St. Mungo's! Which might, perhaps, explain why the gum wrappers on Jo's site have taken to aligning themselves up as they do. (For those new to the thread -- I have yet to see it myself as our computer doesn't support the site, but -- apparently, the gum wrappers, just as the site is arranging itself, form the numbers 713. Vault 713 is the Gringotts vault where the Sorcerer's Stone was kept in book 1 and, I just realized, it was broken into which might add support to the idea that things aren't all peachy-keen down there....) Anyway, I think I'm diverging....

Hi, Furry! I'm glad you found your way to volume 2 of the thread! I hope it lasts just as long this time!

I hope you can get your computer to support the site! Try turning off your pop-up stopper - that helped alot of people a few weeks ago.

I hadn't heard this about the GUM - WOW! :eyebrows: :tu: Is this a clue just for us or what! :blush: I hope JKR knows how hard we've tried to solve the gum mystery, thanks to you, Furry, for starting this thread! :love:

So now we have the gum wrappers tied somehow to the Sorcerer's Stone??? I've got to start thinking about this all over again, but the "gold bribe beneath St. Mungo's" sure seems more likely to be true, doesn't it! Hooray!

[Dedalus Diggle]

So now we have the gum wrappers tied somehow to the Sorcerer's Stone??? I've got to start thinking about this all over again, but the "gold bribe beneath St. Mungo's" sure seems more likely to be true, doesn't it! Hooray!
Well, if we have a reference to a Gringott's vault, it could just as likely support the "Goblins were sold tomb bug" anagram - where better to store a valuable object but in the most secure vault?

And Sueky, that possibility has certainly been considered - what do you think are the best reasons for it or against it?

[silver ink pot]

Well, if we have a reference to a Gringott's vault, it could just as likely support the "Goblins were sold tomb bug" anagram - where better to store a valuable object but in the most secure vault?

And Sueky, that possibility has certainly been considered - what do you think are the best reasons for it or against it?

Of course, you are right, Dedalus Diggle! :agree: I was writing excitedly in a hurry and left that anagram out! Either way, it links the gum wrappers to Gringotts. The anagram about the gold bribe seems to fit too, from a monetary standpoint.

[whizbang121]

Maybe it symbolizes Alice's frustration about not being able to talk to her son. Similar to a light coma. If we put ourselves in JKR's shoes for a moment, she says she started chewing gum when she gave up cigarettes and that's why the wrappers are all over her desk. It's possible she stopped smoking when she was expecting her second child, so the gum is a substitute for something she gave up or surrendered for the good of her child. What might Alice have given up or surrendered and substituted gum for in Neville's best interests? Does she know that the gum is keeping her in St Mungo's and willing to stay there if it means Neville is safer?

Vault 713 is used to keep high security items....and I don't think it would be too much to say that its only purpose was to protect the sorceror's stone....there may be something new that is being kept in that vault currently

Maybe Lucius is keeping something in that vault....nowVault 713 belongs either to Dumbledore or to Hogwarts.

What if Quirrell just swallowed some gillyweed, jumped in the lake and swam to Gringotts?

Also, try a different browser. Netscape's built in popup blocker seems to cause problems as does the aol browser. Mozilla, firefox and Internet Explorer all seem to work.

If 713 is a reference to the sorcerer's stone, did Alice give it up and substitute gum for it in order to protect Neville?

Um....
That doesn't make much sense. Have to run that one through the cuisinart again.

[Kelfa21]

If we put ourselves in JKR's shoes for a moment, she says she started chewing gum when she gave up cigarettes and that's why the wrappers are all over her desk. It's possible she stopped smoking when she was expecting her second child, so the gum is a substitute for something she gave up or surrendered for the good of her child. What might Alice have given up or surrendered and substituted gum for in Neville's best interests? Does she know that the gum is keeping her in St Mungo's and willing to stay there if it means Neville is safer?

Vault 713 belongs either to Dumbledore or to Hogwarts.

What if Quirrell just swallowed some gillyweed, jumped in the lake and swam to Gringotts?

Thats and very interesting theory...maybe the gum is hindering any effects a potion might have on her to help cure her.
Dident the healers say that some of the long term patients were making slow progress...such as Bode, who began speaking in strange languages or even Lockhart...who seemed to recognize he was a professor and was very famous.
We don't know how much progress Neville's parents have made except that they certainly do recognize Neville..

Can anyone think if the number 713 has a deeper meaning....I know its a shot in the dark but I'm trying to think of any possibilities here...

[atherella]

I would love to know where the Longbottoms are getting all the gum.

In PoA, when Harry goes in Honeydukes, he sees the gum on display. It's described this way:

...along yet another wall were "Special Effect" sweets: Droobles Best Blowing Gum (which filled a room with bluebell-colored bubbles that refused to pop for days.

Who is buying all this gum for them, and why a "special effect" gum? Seems very suspicious and I wouldn't be at all surprised if the gum were brought in as part of an effort to keep the Longbottoms incapacitated and unable to fight against LV.

[whizbang121]

Want to try this attachment.
If you look at the space bar on the keyboard at the top of the picture, there's a butterfly/doxy sitting there. It's directly above the 1. The 7 is in white wrappers and the 3 is kind of harder to make out.

[codswallop]

JKR seems to like prime numbers, as mathematicians of old considered them magical, perhaps as learned in Hermione's Numerology class. This is apparent in here Wizard Money exchange 17 sickles to a gallon, 29 knuts to a sickle,

11 inches -- Harry's wand
11 yr old Hogwarts first years
17 yr old of age

713 you could look at two ways, the prime number 7 and the prime number 13 each which has their own conotion, or that 713 is divisible by two prime numbers 31 and 23. In addition 7+1+3 = 11 another prime, and 7, 1, 3 are all prime. or if you divide the numbers up 71 and 3 those are also prime.

[offca]

it's a great thread, I don't know why I haven't discoverd it earlier...

the gum can come from Neville and Grandma- when they come to visit, they probably bring with some sweets, among them also gum.
Gum wrappers are mostly covered with aluminum, which remembers me of mirrors. Could it be, that Alice knows something about some mirror? We know mirror/water surface/ portraits are very important, so maybe she wants to say something about that? It could be a clue, or warning.

Neville could had been put under cruciato to make his parents watch and say about LV whereabouts. Just imagine what kind of torture it is for parents. Neville was more than one year old – maybe even around two years old – he could remember something (like Harry remembers even things when he was one year old!) – but still his boggart is Snape, not Bella… it is possible someone put memory charm on him – for his own good, to take away bad memories.
It is strange that both Alice and Frank became mentally ill – it is always like that? Every person would finish this way? Or maybe there is difference between both of them? We see only Alice who goes to Neville – maybe with Frank is even worse? Maybe Alice is coming back slowly?

[whizbang121]

7 + 1 + 3 = 11

All primes as well. I think Sirius vault was 711. Again, the pattern of all primes. These add up to 9, another magic number, but not a prime. These vaults are very deep in the earth. Didn't Hagrid say something about hundreds of miles under thearth? Hopefully he was exaggerating. It should have been getting a bit warm at those depths. ;)

Under the 713 on the desktop are two portkeys, a key and a ponytail holder. :huh:

The gum wrappers under the coffee cup seem to spell Lily, vertically, with the pen forming the long line of the Y.

[vitacus]

7 & 13: a lucky number next to an unlucky number. Balance like a yin yang. That's all I've got.

[whizbang121]

It's a toughie. But it connects the gum wrappers to the vault that contained the sorcerer's stone. Then again, gum wrappers are connected to Lily.

:eyebrows: "More than meets the eye." ;)

[Luna Lion]

I think this is also going to be connected to Nifflers - they have been mentioned far more than is warranted, several times in GoF and also they popped up in Umbridge's office, Fleur Delacoeur mentions she thinks they will be serahcing underground tunnels for treasure - I think Nifflers will get loose in St Mungos and find the secret stash!

[Melfina]

Maybe Mrs. Longbottom is giving Neville gumwrappers because as a child Voldemort could have chocked and almost died on a gum wrapper......MWAHAHAhahaha! Those gum wrappers will be the downfall of Voldie! Oh yes indeed!

ok seriously, I don't know if there is a significance to the wrappers, they may constain hidden symbols on the inside, but they could simply be the results of the mother having lost her mind and she is simply giving this boy that she does not recongnize "presents." I got all teary eyed from reading that whole part with Neville and his mother not even recognizing him. That would kill me if my parents lost their minds from being tortured into insanity.

[HarryPotter]

Maybe this way it is easier to see...

Please also note how when loading the page, the last wrapper of the 3 is not there, and it appears separately

http://www.cosforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15698&stc=1

[GodricHollow]

Hold up! reverse it and you get 7/13, the American way of saying the thirteenth of the seventh.

So maybe, that's the day that something major happens, such as LV's (hopefull) downfall, or the main event of HBP.

[HarryPotter]

OMG! I think I've got something... 713... read that upside down... as if you rotated the website...

...EIL

VEIL?

[silver ink pot]

OMG - Harry Potter! That is awesome! You have to add something that looks like an upside down "V" to get "VEIL." ^^^^^^^^^^^^

For it to work it has to say: 713^

Upside down that reads: VEIL :tu:

What does that symbol "^" mean? It is above the six on my keyboard. My husband says maybe it means "insert here"? Or is a Greek letter or rune or something? Help Whizbang?

7 + 1 + 3 = 11

All primes as well. I think Sirius vault was 711. Again, the pattern of all primes. These add up to 9, another magic number, but not a prime. These vaults are very deep in the earth. Didn't Hagrid say something about hundreds of miles under thearth? Hopefully he was exaggerating. It should have been getting a bit warm at those depths. ;)

Under the 713 on the desktop are two portkeys, a key and a ponytail holder. :huh:

The gum wrappers under the coffee cup seem to spell Lily, vertically, with the pen forming the long line of the Y.

This is amazing, amazing, amazing! I haven't had time lately to sit and stare at the official site, but there has to be a reason things are moving around!

I love the prime numbers! And the gum wrappers spell "Lily"! OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Melfina]

0_0 I think you guys may be well working out the next vital clue that could lead to another discovery in the upcoming book...

[whizbang121]

OMG - Harry Potter! That is awesome! You have to add something that looks like an upside down "V" to get "VEIL." ^^^^^^^^^^^^

For it to work it has to say: 713^

Upside down that reads: VEIL :tu:

What does that symbol "^" mean? It is above the six on my keyboard. My husband says maybe it means "insert here"? Or is a Greek letter or rune or something? Help Whizbang?



This is amazing, amazing, amazing! I haven't had time lately to sit and stare at the official site, but there has to be a reason things are moving around!

I love the prime numbers! And the gum wrappers spell "Lily"! OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This takes me back to the days when I was the only kid in school with a reel to reel tape recorder who could play Revolution # 9 backwards. :lol: It really did say "I buried Paul."

Could a couple of the pens form the V?

So this connects the gum wrappers to vault 713/SS, the Veil and Lily. Can you all make out the little "pictures" is black on the silver wrappers?
It looks like a figure with his head beyond the picture and a hole in torso aiming something, (an umbrella?) at a squarish thing with 3 lights across the top and a flash at the bottom.

A headless guy? Blasting a small building? I'm going into paint and see if I can outline them like HarryPotter did with the 713.

Ooooo..... This is fun.

[Jinxie Cat]

You guys never cease to amaze me... :D

Although these discoveries could just be pure coincidences... That would be creepy if they were of any significance.

[whizbang121]

:lol:Welcome to creepy. Did I mention that Paul is still alive. I still remember the sound of the traffic accident, though.

[codswallop]

This takes me back to the days when I was the only kid in school with a reel to reel tape recorder who could play Revolution # 9 backwards. It really did say "Paul is dead."

Could a couple of the pens form the V?

So this connects the gum wrappers to vault 713/SS, the Veil and Lily. Can you all make out the little "pictures" is black on the silver wrappers?
It looks like a figure with his head beyond the picture and a hole in torso aiming something, (an umbrella?) at a squarish thing with 3 lights across the top and a flash at the bottom.

A headless guy? Blasting a small building? I'm going into paint and see if I can outline them like HarryPotter did with the 713.

Ooooo..... This is fun.

I am glad you made the comment about the Pens, I thought so too but was afraid I was going to get laughed at...

[Kelfa21]

Its odd because the two black pens in the cup do look like a "v"

With everything outlined you can really spell out veil...

[atherella]

Wow!!! Great finds!!! Very impressive. :)

[madamepomfrey]

I mentioned this in another thread, I was visiting the lexicon and notice the entrance to St. Mungos is "purge and dowse ltd" Does anyone have any theories on what that could mean? I tried it in an anagram generator and all I came up with was dung, wand and owls but you cant use both wand and dung.

Sorry for the double post but I have found out some other things on purge and dowse ltd.

from dictionary.com:
Purge-To rid (a nation or political party, for example) of people considered undesirable. (one of several definitions)(very interesting.....)
Dowse- 2: use a divining rod in search of underground water or metal (again one of several) (which ties in with the gold below st mungos)
Ltd- a on-line anagram generator.(hmm)

So can any of you make anything out of this?

[ComicBookWorm]

Please no more anagrams. They're fun, but they don't translate well into other languages and will not be used. It was actually a challenge to do the translations for Tom Marvolo Riddle to mean "I am Lord Voldemort" which had the middle name and other parts of the name change for other languages. It was a juggling act that is only complicated by using others parts of speech besides proper names and expecting them to also become anagrams. Names can be fudged in anagrams since they have no imputed meaning besides the name, other parts of speech not so easily since they can't be twisted to have corresponding meaning in other languages. Droobles Best Blowing Gum will not translate to Gold Bribe Below St. Mungos in other languages. Perseus Evans will not translate to Severus Snape since he isn't called Severus Snape in other translations.

[silver ink pot]

Comic: Please let us have some fun with anagrams - Please? These books were written in the English language, and even if all the anagrams don't translate (which is understandable, I think), then JKR might still be throwing in interesting anagrams now and then.

Whiz: When I was looking at the site just now, the pencil can turned over as it always does, and the two pens were in a V just over the 713. There is no doubt that this is meaningful!

I like the obscure little picture on the wadded up gum wrapper. It almost looks like a dog's head, with a ear and body extending beyond where your pink lines go, to the right. I put this into paint and zoomed in, but I can't seem to get anything to attach that is big enough to see it. Can you make a thumbnail of just that bottom wrapper with the "picture" on it? How do you make a thumbnail anyway? I am illiterate at attatching images! :upset:

[ComicBookWorm]

I would never want to stop anyone from having fun. Anagram away. I'll just sit here an chuckle to myself about it all. :p

[silver ink pot]

:p Chuckle Away!

:evil: And yet, Whizbang has just connected the gum, the stone, the vault, and Lily. This thread wouldn't still be here if it wasn't for some wonderful posters who worked out some very long anagrams! Perhaps they will get the last laugh.

People have been laughing at the anagrams for a long time, but when JKR's Official Site opened, there were the gum wrappers!

My favorite anagram that I ever found, intentional or not, is in Goblet of Fire. When Harry gets his dress robes, we are told they are "bottle green." That is an anagram of "Enter Goblet." :eyebrows:

[ComicBookWorm]

I actually think there is something to the gum wrappers. I can't be entirely certain if they are enchanted, poisoned, carrying secret messages, or just a poignant keepsake from his mother.

I also harbor some suspicions about Gran Longbottom. She is not what she appears to be and she has been up to something. Whether that is for good or evil we don't know.

I'm less convinced about the stuff on JKR's desktop, but I am keeping an open mind. :cool:

[Jinxie Cat]

I also harbor some suspicions about Gran Longbottom. She is not what she appears to be and she has been up to something. Whether that is for good or evil we don't know.
I hope she's not a Death Eater... Poor Neville has suffered enough as it is! :D

I do find all the gum wrappers given to Neville by his mom to be slightly suspicious and they probably will provide more significance in any one of the last two books.

However, I feel that the gumwrappers on Jo's desk have absolutely nothing to do with HP. As written by Jo herself:

In the bad old days, when I wanted a few minutes' break while writing, I used to light up a cigarette. I gave up smoking in the year 2000 and now chew a lot of gum instead (hence the state of my desk).

Sorry, but I think that's the only hidden meaning behind the gumwrappers on the desk. But like I said before... The ones given to Neville might mean something more.

[filius]

Regardless to whether or not JK quit smoking and now chews gum, I think she was going to use something else other than gum wrappers when she wrote that particular scene. JK seemed to focus a lot on the gum wrappers so it must mean something important. I support the theory that the gum is curse/jinxed and I also think they might have some messages.

She could have used another object in the gum wrapper's place but I think she used them because she is fond of them- she eats them all the time.

[HarryPotter]

Let me paste here two links to two of my posts in the JKR's Official Site thread, they fit in here as well...

http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=1151874&postcount=935

http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=1153475&postcount=954

[codswallop]

Comic: Please let us have some fun with anagrams - Please? These books were written in the English language, and even if all the anagrams don't translate (which is understandable, I think), then JKR might still be throwing in interesting anagrams now and then.

Whiz: When I was looking at the site just now, the pencil can turned over as it always does, and the two pens were in a V just over the 713. There is no doubt that this is meaningful!

I like the obscure little picture on the wadded up gum wrapper. It almost looks like a dog's head, with a ear and body extending beyond where your pink lines go, to the right. I put this into paint and zoomed in, but I can't seem to get anything to attach that is big enough to see it. Can you make a thumbnail of just that bottom wrapper with the "picture" on it? How do you make a thumbnail anyway? I am illiterate at attatching images!

I agree but after I post mine, I play with the silly name all the time. YOu all will agree with comic

I have come up with two interesting Anagram's for "NEVILLE LONGBOTTOMS TOAD TREVOR"

BELONGS TO VOLDEMORT TR NOT ALIVE

or

BELONGS TO VOLDEMORT RAT NOT EVIL

What do you think?

Discussion can also be found here:

http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=27626&highlight=trevor+the+toad

I also like Petunia Dursley--I usualy pretend....I know but close enough. JKR uses those exact words to descibe her in order of Phoenix

[offca]

it must mean something important.

for Neville for sure - it was from his Mother. probably the only signal she knows who he is, as she gave it to him and not Grandmother.
why gum? firstly - she may have a lot of them among other sweets, secondly - as they probably are in aluminum - they catch eye much more than dark, other wrappers.


but - it is possible she may want to say something. either about the person who tortured them (how she may know if they caught Bella?), or about DE in general - maybe they heard something important during torturing.

[whizbang121]

Whiz: When I was looking at the site just now, the pencil can turned over as it always does, and the two pens were in a V just over the 713. There is no doubt that this is meaningful!

I like the obscure little picture on the wadded up gum wrapper. It almost looks like a dog's head, with a ear and body extending beyond where your pink lines go, to the right. I put this into paint and zoomed in, but I can't seem to get anything to attach that is big enough to see it. Can you make a thumbnail of just that bottom wrapper with the "picture" on it? How do you make a thumbnail anyway? I am illiterate at attatching images! :upset:

It's difficult with paint, because they're usually in .bmp format. bmps are allowed, but often too big. :rolleyes:

I have to use another computer with a photo editor to get good quality. What I did up above was just print the bmp, scan it into a jpg and attach it. Harry Potter's looks much better than my grainy pic.

To do an attachment: To reply to a post, choose advanced. Under the reply area, it says Additional Options. The second one is Attach Files. Click on manage attachments.

Browse your hard drive for the image you want and click upload. It it's an accepted file and within the size limits, it will appear under the browse section and you can close the page. If there's a problem, the explanation will appear above the browse spaces.

Hope the directions are decent. :D

I mentioned this in another thread, I was visiting the lexicon and notice the entrance to St. Mungos is "purge and dowse ltd"


"Purge and dowse" also sound like antiquated medical advice or instructions. Purging refers to inducing vomiting, I think. Dowse or douse can mean to pour something on. I believe it can also be an antiquated spelling for dose.

And P & D are Petunia Dursleys initials. :eyebrows:

Regardless to whether or not JK quit smoking and now chews gum, I think she was going to use something else other than gum wrappers when she wrote that particular scene. JK seemed to focus a lot on the gum wrappers so it must mean something important. I support the theory that the gum is curse/jinxed and I also think they might have some messages.

She could have used another object in the gum wrapper's place but I think she used them because she is fond of them- she eats them all the time.JKR always says that she's had the books mapped out for many years. Drooble's Best first appears right in the first book, on the first Hogwarts train trip, so it's a safe guess she always intended to use the gum in book 5. Presumably, this was before she gave up smoking. :huh:
Hmmm......

[outoftheveil]

i was just talking about this exact same subject with my friend the other day. im glad someone has brought it up. i think it might mean something signifigant...but on the other hand, it could just be Neville's mom feels that she should give him something in return for visiting...but why so many gum wrappers? So I think there is something important about the gum wrappers. It could be perhaps that when Neville's gran says that there are enough to fill his wall, that could be very signifigant, he could use them to make a mosaic type thing and break what ever code his mother might be sending him.

[Classical_Wizar]

i wonder if Neville could crack the code, maybe the gum wrappers are the things he keeps forgetting to bring to Hogwarts?

[3SingMuggle]

A while ago someone posted that the description of the gum was "it refused to pop for days." I thought this was odd...what do people say when they refuse to give up a secret? They refuse to "crack" or "pop." The DEs tortured the Longbottoms for information, maybe they really knew where Voldemort was hiding but refused to tell them...to "pop."

[atherella]

That was me that posted the description of the gum. I know we've had the gum mentioned in several of the books, but when I was re-reading and came across the description of it, and the fact that it is classified as a "special effects" item, it just seemed odd that the Longbottoms would have such a large supply of this gum. Especially with bubbles that wouldn't pop for days. Imagine a hospital room full of bubbles? :lol: I imagine that there must be regular chewing gum that they could chew, and it would probably be much cheaper than buying specialty items.

[whizbang121]

I wonder what would happen if Neville did paper a wall with the wrappers? :huh:

[Tane]

Remember how Neville was sprayed with the Mimbulus mimbletonia plant on the train to Hogwarts during OotP, well I just wonder whether this plant is the key to bringing back his parents. Neville is study the plant and look at what happened to him at the end of OotP, Bellatrix gives him a taste of what his parents went through, perhaps the Mimbulus mimbletonia reduced the effects of the Cruciatus Curse and Neville puts two and two together.

That chewing gum wrapper thing is interesting. Maybe it is just symbolic to show that even though his mother is not well, she still recognizes her own son each year on his birthday as she only gives the wrappers to Neville.

Well the only additional anogram I could find was so troubled wobbling gem. I doubt though this means anything and I would say that the bubble gum wrappers suggest that his mother is not all that crazy, perhaps more afraid as Harry thought she looked as though she wanted to say something but would not. Perhaps it is some message to her son but what I just don't know.

I love the volt 713 made from bubble gum wrappers and the pens, great find.

[silver ink pot]

OK, I hope this works, Whiz. This is the wrapper that seems to show a black and white picture at the bottom of the desk. What do you make of it?

[Tane]

OK, I hope this works, Whiz. This is the wrapper that seems to show a black and white picture at the bottom of the desk. What do you make of it?Well may I join in and say it looks like Lupin as a werewolf and a rats body with a human head, Peter perhaps, could this mean that the two are going to come face to face, I hope so.

[silver ink pot]

Here it is a little bigger:

[APoetsInstinct]

Hey... I just had an idea on how to link the Mimbulus Mimbletonia and the bubble gum. Maybe the mimbletonia is an ingredient for the gum. If, as some of you had said, the mimbletiona is a guard against the Cruciatis Curse then maybe chewing the gum will also prevent it's effects. Maybe the parent's are trying to let Neville know how to avoid the curse. Any thoughts?

[Tane]

It is funny how I saw the werewolf in the small image and yet a wizard that looks a lot like Dumbledore in the second one and could that be Fawkes in the middle of two wizards fighting?

This might help a little more, I managed to blow it up to a bigger size.

Edit: [Quote=Picture from JKRs offical site]

[APoetsInstinct]

I think it's just a reflection from the aluminum wrapper. I'm pretty sure it's nothing to get excited about... but I may be wrong...

[atherella]

If you look at the picture straight on and tilt your head to the left, it looks like a bird (Fawkes perhaps?) with a crown on. Maybe I just need to go take a nap, I was up late last night....LOL. I'll save the picture and see if I can outline what I'm talking about. :)

Edit, ok, I rotated the picture 90 degrees, and circled what looks like the head to me. I've never posted a picture, so hopefully this will work out.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v105/atherella/birdhead.jpg

Does anyone see what I'm seeing? :lol:

[codswallop]

Ahhh, the memories, my old college marketing class looking for fallic symbols in ice cubes.

[Dr Hesper]

I wonder what would happen if Neville did paper a wall with the wrappers? :huh:You mean other than look "tacky"? :rotfl: I still have a theory that if he did something like that, someone might use a spell to allow the wrappers to realign themselves to form letters or a message. Maybe they would move around like the brick wall at Diagon ally. I think Hermione may have bewitched a document once to do that, but I dont know.

:)

[whizbang121]

Great! Attachments. Did anyone notice that that pattern of the headless wizard, or bird or whatever is repeating? I'm going to try to grab the desktop before all the stuff lands on it. I had it last night, but I must have deleted it. :rolleyes:

[atherella]

Maybe it's Hedwig? The colors seem to be opposites here. But, they both have the same type of beak shape and eyes. Then again, it's probably just my over active imagination. :lol:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v105/atherella/birdhead.jpg http://home.teleport.ch/bannier/hedwig.jpg

[whizbang121]

I don't know. It still looks human to me, with no head and a hole in the tummy. Okay, human is an exaggeration. :D

This is the desk before all the stuff drops onto it.

[DragonBlk17]

Maybe it's Hedwig? The colors seem to be opposites here. But, they both have the same type of beak shape and eyes. Then again, it's probably just my over active imagination. :lol:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v105/atherella/birdhead.jpg http://home.teleport.ch/bannier/hedwig.jpg

That's really interesting, with the gum wrapper looking exactly like an owl. Cool find!

[Dedalus Diggle]

Or maybe it's a partially destroyed pyramid that the trio are going to visit!

[whizbang121]

That's really interesting, with the gum wrapper looking exactly like an owl. Cool find!
Does it look like someone is holding a rifle to the owl's head?
Or is it a broom.
I see a face, too, under the bird. It appears to be a girl crying.

[3SingMuggle]

In Tane's attachment I saw a human face in the upper-right corner of the foil, with a heavily clefted chin (among other things, mostly faces).
I also saw "Hedwig missing her beak" in atherella's picture. Both are interesting but I doubt they mean anything...lol it's probably just our over-active imaginations.

[silver ink pot]

I see animal heads, no matter which one I look at, lol. Too bad all the psychologists are over on the Sirius the Sociopath thread, lol. Wait a minute. Let them stay over there! :rotfl: :p

Wouldn't it be wonderful if all the wrappers unfolded so we could see the pictures. Is anyone from Light Maker reading this? Hello?

What if Neville hangs them on a bulletin board, and they arrange themselves like a puzzle? Has anyone ever done one of those puzzles in which an ink drawing is scrambled, and you have to copy each piece into numbered squares to make a larger picture? There's no way to tell what it is going to be till you get pictures that go side by side. Maybe we'll get a chance to save up the wrappers and fit them together? That would be awesome!

Hello? Light Maker? :p

[whizbang121]

I have. I have.

But the pattern, whatever it is, is repeating around the page. And Sirius isn't a sociopath. But you're right about the psychologists. If they wander in here, we'll all be on couches. :scared:

[silver ink pot]

Oh - do you think it is the same picture over and over? :huh:

[HarryPotter]

Maybe this is not important... but note how most of the gum wrappers are green and silver... the Slytherin colours...

[silver ink pot]

Harry Potter! I think that IS important! Wow! Silver and Green with Blue letters.

You are my new favorite poster - everything you say is interesting!

Alot of people are mentioning the silver wrappers showing a "reflection." We talked alot about mirrors and aluminum when this thread first started, and we wondered if the wrappers could be used as mirrors.

[obliviate]

Hello all,

I don't know if I'm supposed to reveal this or not (feel free to chastize me at will) but I was just at the Rowling website and made a pack of gum draw a picture on a scrap of paper posted to a bulletin board. I thought that was odd, since a pen was hanging from the same bulletin board. (It took me a while to figure out what to do with the gum!)

Is this a reference to Neville's gum wrappers?

Beyond that, the picture that the gum drew was very interesting and if anyone knows of a thread on that, please enlighten me. If it's OK for me to reveal the picture here, I will do so.

[Dedalus Diggle]

Hello all,

I don't know if I'm supposed to reveal this or not (feel free to chastize me at will) but I was just at the Rowling website and made a pack of gum draw a picture on a scrap of paper posted to a bulletin board. I thought that was odd, since a pen was hanging from the same bulletin board. (It took me a while to figure out what to do with the gum!)

Is this a reference to Neville's gum wrappers?

Beyond that, the picture that the gum drew was very interesting and if anyone knows of a thread on that, please enlighten me. If it's OK for me to reveal the picture here, I will do so.
I'd say it's dangerous not to.

[obliviate]

OK, great. I just didn't want to do some breach of etiquette.

The gum drew a feather, a beaker containing liquid, a spider, and a symbol of a leaf that partially obscures what looks like another leaf.
Arrows pointed from each of the four symbols into a cauldron that bore a question mark on the front of it.

My guess is the leaf represents charms and/or Ravenclaw; the beaker represents potions and/or Slytherin; the spider represents transfiguration and/or Gryffindor; and the leaves represent herbology and/or Hufflepuff. Of course, the spider also could represent defense against the dark arts.

However, this drawing also got me thinking how each of the permanent teachers also is head of a House, but the DADA teacher (who of course changes throughout the books) does not head a House. Come to think of it, why is there a DADA class, since those skills could be learned in each of the respective other courses?

And what does dumping the symbols in one cauldron mean? And what does the fact they were drawn with a package of gum mean?

This gum writing occurred in the Extra Stuff section.

[whizbang121]

sAre you sure it was gum, and not an eraser?

Go through the site and click on each of the items the gum or eraser revealed. The feather should be on the same page. There was a thread about JKR's site, but I can't find it. Maybe it was closed?

Okay, here's (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=27389) the original thread about JKR's site. You don't have to read it all..... But the first skim the first few and the last few pages. The last post by TheWiz has the link to V.2 of the thread.

[offca]

you guys see whole new worlds out there!

The problem is that our mind are playing with us somethimes. when we see something new it try to connect it to something it knows already - a memory of well known things.
that is why in just shadows or clouds we see sometimes different shapes - our mind remembers well known things. many times on second look we do not see it anymore.

do you know this psychological test - I do not remember the name of a scientist who made it - they show you ink pictures and you are suppose to say what you see. and on seeing what connections mind do with a unshaped blur - the psychologist can say you are insane. or something close to it ;-)

so - I think it is a great fun to try to figure out what everyone can see in it - but I do not think it will be realy important.

[atherella]

I found another bird. This one doesn't look like an owl though. Looks more like what my parrot would look like if he were white instead of grayish/blue.

Anyhow, here's this one. Sorry it's a bit sloppy, it's pretty late and I'm tired now. :lol:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v105/atherella/bird2.jpg

[Dr Hesper]

I dunno gang. When I look at the blown up pics you guys are posting, all I see are missile silos and railroad tracks.

*Sigh*

[silver ink pot]

Hello all,

I don't know if I'm supposed to reveal this or not (feel free to chastize me at will) but I was just at the Rowling website and made a pack of gum draw a picture on a scrap of paper posted to a bulletin board. I thought that was odd, since a pen was hanging from the same bulletin board. (It took me a while to figure out what to do with the gum!)



Obliviate: I think the thing you used was something called a "revealer." It is mentioned in the books, and it isn't a pack of gum but it sure does look like a "gum" eraser.

I have been staring at these gum wrappers on the Official Site and got a few more ideas.

713V is definitely there at the top, and so is the name "LILY" to the right.

Someone earlier mentioned that 7-13 could be a date, and it just occurred to me that 7-31 would be Harry's birthday, so the number is reversed. That is probably so obvious that everyone has already thought of it, but it was the first time I had thought of it.

If you write 731^ - and turn it upside down it is "VIEL" - well, "VI" could be "Book 6" in Roman Numerals.

"EL" could be initials of someone - reversed it is "LE" which is what James was writing on his OWL paper in OotP - Lily's initials, standing for Lily Evans.

Maybe this means that book six will begin with the story of Lily Evans?

"VIEL" and "VEIL" are both anagrams for the words "LIVE" and "EVIL"

"Viel" probably means something in French or German - I don't have the proper dictionaries.

I think the Roman Numeral "VI" is also in the gum wrappers at the bottom. The V is green and the I is silver. Down beside the watch - the same wrappers we were searching for pictures today. I don't know why I didn't notice it before!

Just some thoughts. :huh:

[offca]

713 could be also 7/3 - not "1" but just "/" so it could be 7th of March or 3rd of July - how do you write dates in Britain?
7/3 it is also 2 1/3. we have 7 books - 3rd book out of seven? why 3rd?
7 out of 3? we have the holy three - Harry, Hermione and Ron - are there gonna be seven out of that? plus Luna, Ginny, Neville and ? could be seven.

[filius]

JKR always says that she's had the books mapped out for many years. Drooble's Best first appears right in the first book, on the first Hogwarts train trip, so it's a safe guess she always intended to use the gum in book 5. Presumably, this was before she gave up smoking. :huh:
Hmmm......
I don't disagree with you that this could have been before she stopped smoking. But all the same, she could have chosen something else, like a chocolate frog, which have been mentioned more often. I doubt if she planned out the sweets in the wizarding wizarding world. That would have been a little too extreme. Also, it's a really small detail that can be changeed really quickly, (not now that the book has been published). I don't think the object, a "gum wrapper", is very important, because it will be just as important to the plot whether or not the object is a gum wrapper. Any other object, given to Neville by his mother in place of the gum wrapper, would have had the same impact.

[obliviate]

Not gum, eh? Well, bust my bubble! :p Let me back out and find the right thread.

[filius]

Regarding the Acronyms: The acronyms for Drooble won't work for other languages. JK speaks french, she would not write a book and make acronyms in english that would not from any words in french.
Acronyms in my opinion are very thin and flimsy- not canon. I don't think they are very reliable for getting clues out of.
I dismiss the "Gold bribe under st Mungo's" acronym. :D

[ComicBookWorm]

Regarding the Acronyms: The acronyms for Drooble won't work for other languages. JK speaks french, she would not write a book and make acronyms in english that would not from any words in french.
Acronyms in my opinion are very thin and flimsy- not canon. I don't think they are very reliable for getting clues out of.
I dismiss the "Gold bribe under st Mungo's" acronym. :D
Last time I did that, I got a lot of folks upset. I've decided to chuckle to myself and let them theorize away. The stuff is interesting even if it is kind of out there. :rotfl: JKR probably speaks Portugese too. :p :rolleyes:

[filius]

Last time I did that, I got a lot of folks upset. I've decided to chuckle to myself and let them theorize away. The stuff is interesting even if it is kind of out there. :rotfl:

She probably speaks Portugese too. :p :rolleyes:
Oh well. I'll do what I have to do. If people want to talk about acronyms, they should probably go do that in the quidditch pitch.

By the way, what do you think about my post above the one you quoted CBW?

[GredandFeorge]

New to this forum thing so please don't flame me if I do anything stupid! On this topic, I'm definitely in the school of thought that Neville's Gran is evil - the Death Eaters are consistently referred to as vulture-like creatures and she wears that hat...I wanted to point out that at the same time that Neville received his umpteenth Drooble's wrapper, there's this whole situation where Bode gets strangled by a cutting of Devil's Snare. I can't help but this that it isn't mere coincidence that this happened right when Neville and his grandmother are at the hospital. In OoTP, Neville is given a Mimbulus Mimbletonia by his uncle. IF this is the same uncle that threw him out a window once to force him to show his magical abilities, I wouldn't trust it at all. I think there is some connection between the plants that show up - Neville is really good at Herbology - maybe their whole family is and there's something about that Mimbulus that affects Neville in some way...a quick side note too, is that Neville's cruel uncle's name is "Algie" - short for Algernon I'm assuming (if we use Wilde's Importance of Being Earnest as a clue) - is there any relation to the Algernon Rookwood that appears as a Death Eater in the department of Mysteries in OoTP?

[Dr Hesper]

New to this forum thing so please don't flame me if I do anything stupid!Welcome to CoS! Its a sad state of affairs that new members feel they must preface their remarks with doubt and worry that they will be flamed. What does this say about our forums? But you are right. It does happen. I hope you find a home here despite such unpleasantness. :)

On this topic, I'm definitely in the school of thought that Neville's Gran is evil - the Death Eaters are consistently referred to as vulture-like creatures and she wears that hat...I wanted to point out that at the same time that Neville received his umpteenth Drooble's wrapper, there's this whole situation where Bode gets strangled by a cutting of Devil's Snare. I can't help but this that it isn't mere coincidence that this happened right when Neville and his grandmother are at the hospital. In OoTP, Neville is given a Mimbulus Mimbletonia by his uncle. IF this is the same uncle that threw him out a window once to force him to show his magical abilities, I wouldn't trust it at all. I think there is some connection between the plants that show up - Neville is really good at Herbology - maybe their whole family is and there's something about that Mimbulus that affects Neville in some way...a quick side note too, is that Neville's cruel uncle's name is "Algie" - short for Algernon I'm assuming (if we use Wilde's Importance of Being Earnest as a clue) - is there any relation to the Algernon Rookwood that appears as a Death Eater in the department of Mysteries in OoTP?I think we are of like minds on this topic. While most threads are drifting off the way JKR's website looks and what the new book might be about, its nice to see that some still have questions about the motives of the characters in the already published books. I wonder about Gram. Her attire and her actions are ....suspicious to me. Uncle Algie is a bit curious as well. Neville is good at herbology. Did he get this trait from Uncle Algie? Why would Uncle Algie give Neville the Mimbulus Mimbletonia plant? This is an odd gift for a kid i think. So far all it has done is spray gunk all over certain characters and it has grown. She mentions that it is growing. Could this mean that it will be important when it matures? Could it be a clue to Neville's parents? Maybe the plant will aid them somehow?

And yes...I wonder about the timing of Neville's Gram and Bode's strangulation. I don't know what to make of it yet. I'm curious about Healers Strout, Smethwyk, Pye and also about Gilderoy Lockhart.

*And then theres a question of whethere Peter Pettigrew might fit into this. ;)

[offca]

is that Neville's cruel uncle's name is "Algie" - short for Algernon I'm assuming (if we use Wilde's Importance of Being Earnest as a clue) - is there any relation to the Algernon Rookwood that appears as a Death Eater in the department of Mysteries in OoTP?


holly molly - that's a nice one! I haven't heard it before. never thought about whole name of Neville's uncle...

But Rockwood was in Azkaban, wasn't he? so he cannot be the same one.

and still - Neville's parents were in Order... I just cannot take the rest of family is on the DE's side.

Algie must be just a little bit crazy.

[ComicBookWorm]

New to this forum thing so please don't flame me if I do anything stupid! On this topic, I'm definitely in the school of thought that Neville's Gran is evil - the Death Eaters are consistently referred to as vulture-like creatures and she wears that hat...I wanted to point out that at the same time that Neville received his umpteenth Drooble's wrapper, there's this whole situation where Bode gets strangled by a cutting of Devil's Snare. I can't help but this that it isn't mere coincidence that this happened right when Neville and his grandmother are at the hospital. In OoTP, Neville is given a Mimbulus Mimbletonia by his uncle. IF this is the same uncle that threw him out a window once to force him to show his magical abilities, I wouldn't trust it at all. I think there is some connection between the plants that show up - Neville is really good at Herbology - maybe their whole family is and there's something about that Mimbulus that affects Neville in some way...a quick side note too, is that Neville's cruel uncle's name is "Algie" - short for Algernon I'm assuming (if we use Wilde's Importance of Being Earnest as a clue) - is there any relation to the Algernon Rookwood that appears as a Death Eater in the department of Mysteries in OoTP?
Not only does she wear a vulture, I think whizbang pointed out that vultures are eaters of the dead--death eaters. Nice catch about Uncle Algie possibly be Algernon Rookwood.

[Arithmancy]

Wow, great thread! Got me looking at JKR's website for a while.

I'll through in a couple of observations:

The gum wrappes that spell 713 are next to the key.
This key is a link (portkey) to the room with all the awards (fan sites page). In that room the key is hanging next to the award cup. Name on the cup is Bellatrix Black. :eyebrows: Gum wrappers => key to Bellatrix (?????)

The ponytail band next to wrappers: strechable, flexible, round, rubber.... Gum? Leads to something unknown yet, to be revealed later, book 6? Is there something?

[Dr Hesper]

Not only does she wear a vulture, I think whizbang pointed out that vulture are eaters of the dead--death eaters.Wow! Whiz is pretty sharp to think of that isnt she! :whistle:

;)

[grrliz]

Not only does she wear a vulture, I think whizbang pointed out that vulture are eaters of the dead--death eaters. Nice catch about Uncle Algie possibly be Algernon Rookwood. Yeah, but in PoA, Dumbledore also wears a vulture hat (that he gets out of a Christmas cracker), so I'm not sure it's the greatest indication that someone is a Death Eater (Dumbledore a Death Eater? Surely not!). Then again, Neville's grandmother is notorious for wearing the hat, whereas Dumbledore was simply wearing it for fun and games at Christmas dinner.


...a quick side note too, is that Neville's cruel uncle's name is "Algie" - short for Algernon I'm assuming (if we use Wilde's Importance of Being Earnest as a clue) - is there any relation to the Algernon Rookwood that appears as a Death Eater in the department of Mysteries in OoTP? I never picked up on that, but that's brilliant if it is true. He'll definitely be back in later books; now that there might be a connection, it feels like it almost has to be true.

[ComicBookWorm]

Wow! Whiz is pretty sharp to think of that isnt she! :whistle:

;)
She's very good at seeing unusual connections.

[Arithmancy]

Err... Rookwood's name is Augustus. OotP, p 543 American.

I am relieved. Anyway, it would be kind of cruel if Frank Longbottom's mother or brother were DEs.

[whizbang121]

I found another bird. This one doesn't look like an owl though. Looks more like what my parrot would look like if he were white instead of grayish/blue.

Anyhow, here's this one. Sorry it's a bit sloppy, it's pretty late and I'm tired now. :lol:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v105/atherella/bird2.jpg

:lol: Obviously, offca has made a good point. You see a parrot, like yours in the wrapper. I see a schnauzer. (Devoted dog lover, here.) ;) So, maybe the point is well taken.

I dunno gang. When I look at the blown up pics you guys are posting, all I see are missile silos and railroad tracks.

*Sigh* :rotfl: :tu:

[codswallop]

Wow, great thread! Got me looking at JKR's website for a while.

I'll through in a couple of observations:

The gum wrappes that spell 713 are next to the key.
This key is a link (portkey) to the room with all the awards (fan sites page). In that room the key is hanging next to the award cup. Name on the cup is Bellatrix Black. :eyebrows: Gum wrappers => key to Bellatrix (?????)

The ponytail band next to wrappers: strechable, flexible, round, rubber.... Gum? Leads to something unknown yet, to be revealed later, book 6? Is there something?


I've been pondering this and my first reaction is that it seems if you believe the anagram about the gold bribe then Bellatrix could not have been behind it while she was in Azkaban....On second thought she was the one who supposedly torchured the Longbottoms into insanity.....I have yet to come to a conclusion, maybe just coinincidence.

[whizbang121]

Regarding the Acronyms: The acronyms for Drooble won't work for other languages. JK speaks french, she would not write a book and make acronyms in english that would not from any words in french.
Acronyms in my opinion are very thin and flimsy- not canon. I don't think they are very reliable for getting clues out of.
I dismiss the "Gold bribe under st Mungo's" acronym. :D
I agree that she could have used something besides gum to have Alice give to Neville. But one reason we always check for anagrams is that JKR has already used one. And she does so few things only once. There's bound to be at least one more. :D

:huh: But maybe we should check acronyms?

DBBG
D-B-B-G
De bebe G

[codswallop]

I agree that she could have used something besides gum to have Alice give to Neville. But one reason we always check for anagrams is that JKR has already used one. And she does so few things only once. There's bound to be at least one more. :D

Drooble's best Blowing Gum---is such an unusually long name with some alliteration but not her usual alliteration style it is a natural for an anagram,
I find it hard for anyone to dismiss it.

Bernie Bott's is more of her usual alliteration pattern

[ComicBookWorm]

Err... Rookwood's name is Augustus. OotP, p 543 American.
Thanks, that explains why none of us noticed before. I'm glad someone was paying attention.

I think Gran is up to something. It could be for Neville's benefit. Or it could be something more nefarious. :eyebrows:

[Dedalus Diggle]

I agree that she could have used something besides gum to have Alice give to Neville. But one reason we always check for anagrams is that JKR has already used one. And she does so few things only once. There's bound to be at least one more. :D
Actually, the anagram in CoS was one of my least favorite devices. Supposedly, Tom Riddle is laying nefarious plans to be the biggest baddest scariest wizard the world has ever seen and he's sitting around playing word games like a lovesick teen girl seeing how her name would look with her boyfriend's last name. Oh, puh-leeze! :rolleyes:

However, for the gum wrapper, we have a woman who may want to communicate with the outside world but has difficulty, either because she is closely watched or has mental damage that interferes with communication. Some sort of a code makes a lot of sense in that case. She has plenty of time to play with letters and construct anagrams that give hints. this is the reason that I think that the anagrams, or some other form of message delivery, is a very reasonable possibility for these wrappers.

[whizbang121]

I think we are of like minds on this topic. While most threads are drifting off the way JKR's website looks and what the new book might be about, its nice to see that some still have questions about the motives of the characters in the already published books. As this thread is about Neville, Voldemort and a lot of Gum. :huh: I see no drifting.

Why would Uncle Algie give Neville the Mimbulus Mimbletonia plant? This is an odd gift for a kid i think. So far all it has done is spray gunk all over certain characters and it has grown. She mentions that it is growing. Could this mean that it will be important when it matures? Could it be a clue to Neville's parents? Maybe the plant will aid them somehow? And mimbulus mimbeltonia was also the password to the Gryffindor common room.

And yes...I wonder about the timing of Neville's Gram and Bode's strangulation. I don't know what to make of it yet. I'm curious about Healers Strout, Smethwyk, Pye and also about Gilderoy Lockhart.

*And then theres a question of whethere Peter Pettigrew might fit into this. ;)I suspect the critical character, in terms of Neville, will turn out to be Snape.

Actually, the anagram in CoS was one of my least favorite devices. Supposedly, Tom Riddle is laying nefarious plans to be the biggest baddest scariest wizard the world has ever seen and he's sitting around playing word games like a lovesick teen girl seeing how her name would look with her boyfriend's last name. Oh, puh-leeze! :rolleyes: Well, he was sixteen when he told Harry about it. Maybe he was only twelve when he thought it up. Twelve year olds like secret codes. :eyebrows:


Not only does she wear a vulture, I think whizbang pointed out that vultures are eaters of the dead--death eaters.
I don't remember who thought of that. It was a while ago. We discussed it on the previous thread, along with some nice work by Silver Ink Pot on the significance of vultures in Egyptian mythology.
Nice catch about Uncle Algie possibly be Algernon Rookwood. More proof it's time for me to move on. That's also been thoroughly discussed ..... somewhere around here. ;)

Err... Rookwood's name is Augustus. OotP, p 543 American.

I am relieved. Anyway, it would be kind of cruel if Frank Longbottom's mother or brother were DEs.

I may be wrong, but I think that's what all the discussion was about. In some versions, it's Augustus and in others its Algernon. I can't remember if it was audio vs print or Bloomsbury vs Scholastic. Very confusing issue. I remember a lot of carrying on about an audio of CoS that gave Ginny green eyes. :lol:

Yup.

[silver ink pot]

http://www.m5p.com/~pravn/hp/

Pye, Augustus (OotP ch. 22): The trainee Healer of the Dai Llewellyn Ward.

Rookwood, Augustus (GoF ch. 30): A Death Eater who worked in the Department of Mysteries until being caught and imprisoned in Azkaban. Now running loose.

there's this whole situation where Bode gets strangled by a cutting of Devil's Snare. I can't help but this that it isn't mere coincidence that this happened right when Neville and his grandmother are at the hospital. In OoTP, Neville is given a Mimbulus Mimbletonia by his uncle. IF this is the same uncle that threw him out a window once to force him to show his magical abilities, I wouldn't trust it at all.

This happens on Christmas Day, so really anyone could have sent the plant. What is strange about it is that the plant is accompanied by a hippogriff calendar! What is the connection there? That is a very Gryffindor image, isn't it?

Isn't Algie a great-uncle? I don't think he is Frank's brother.

I don't think Neville's Gran is evil and I don't think she would kill Bode.

The gum wrappers that spell 713 are next to the key.
This key is a link (portkey) to the room with all the awards (fan sites page). In that room the key is hanging next to the award cup. Name on the cup is Bellatrix Black. Gum wrappers => key to Bellatrix (?????)

The ponytail band next to wrappers: strechable, flexible, round, rubber.... Gum? Leads to something unknown yet, to be revealed later, book 6? Is there something?

I really, really love this, Arithmancy! The key next to the award cup with Bella's name on it! Since she was the one who tortured the Longbottoms, the gum could be something that Alice is trying to tell Neville about Bellatrix or all the LeStranges!

Wouldn't you just love to know how Bellatrix won that cup? :huh:

[whizbang121]

This HPLexicon (http://www.hp-lexicon.org/about/books/differences-op.html)page describes the differences between British and American editions. About 2/3 of the way down the page .......

The first column is the scholastic page # in OotP, the US term, the British term, the Bloomsbury page #

543 Augustus Rookwood Algernon Rookwood 480

So Rookwood's name is Algernon in the British editions.

[codswallop]

Isn't Algie a great-uncle? I don't think he is Frank's brother.

I don't think Neville's Gran is evil and I don't think she would kill Bode.

Yes Algie is a great uncle either Gran's brother or Brother-in-law.

and those that think Gran gave plant to Bode....Well they visit every year per GOF, which would have remember if they had brought in something not for the Longbottom's.

[whizbang121]

Fancy hippogryphs! Who on earth would send a calendar of fancy hippogryphs. One of the great questions!

Yes Algie is a great uncle either Gran's brother or Brother-in-law.

and those that think Gran gave plant to Bode....Well they visit every year per GOF, which would have remember if they had brought in something not for the Longbottom's.
Bode hasn't been there a whole year, though. Has he?

[GredandFeorge]

Err... Rookwood's name is Augustus. OotP, p 543 American.

I am relieved. Anyway, it would be kind of cruel if Frank Longbottom's mother or brother were DEs.

Actually, it does appear to be, but in OofTP if you notice, he shows up as Algernon (I did know that). Either this is a mistake, or, they are relatives but there is definitely an Algernon Rookwood that is a death eater.

Also, someone mentioned that Dumbledore wears a vulture hat that he gets out of a christmas cracker and puts it on immediately. This is getting OT so I won't get into it, but I do not believe this is a coincidence. Though I don't think Dumbledore was or is a death eater (I think that's far too simple a solution) I don't believe he is to be trusted either - from evidence in the text. Maybe I'll have to start a new thread!

[Dr Hesper]

As this thread is about Neville, Voldemort and a lot of Gum. I see no drifting.It's a matter of opinion i guess. I only say this because others are being chastised for posting off topic or (heaven forbid) discussing something that may have been mentioned a month or so ago. My point was that it's sad that some feel nervous about posting their thoughts and i believe they feel this way precisely because of the ridicule some experience when talking about a previously discussed issue. I got it my very first week at these forums and its still going on. (Or perhaps a select few are allowed to do this?) :grumble: However I'm not naive enough to expect newbies to search through each and every post in this thread (which is now version 2 and extremely long) before posting their thoughts. Most just arent going to do it. (Most dont have time to do it).

And mimbulus mimbeltonia was also the password to the Gryffindor common room.It does reinforce the plant in the reader's mind. I suspect there is more to this little plant than meets the eye.

I don't remember who thought of that. It was a while ago. We discussed it on the previous thread, along with some nice work by Silver Ink Pot on the significance of vultures in Egyptian mythology. More proof it's time for me to move on. That's also been thoroughly discussed ..... somewhere around here. ;)Hmm...

I am relieved. Anyway, it would be kind of cruel if Frank Longbottom's mother or brother were DEs. True enough. It could happen though. Trixie Black and most of her family were villains while Sirius was a good guy, so it would be an interesting twist for some of Neville’s family to be villainous. :)

[Arithmancy]

*eats her words, well half of them, anyway* :) Ok, since Rookwood's name has been changed for American edition this probably means his first name is not important for the plot.

I really, really love this, Arithmancy!
....
Wouldn't you just love to know how Bellatrix won that cup?
Thanks, although I do think it is a bit far-fetched. We'll see.

Oh, I very much would like to know how she got the cup! My speculations based on Bella's character go beyond PG-13, so I'll shut up. :blush: :lol:

I re-loaded JKR's front page like 20 times. The picture is drawn in two steps. First, the immobile background appears, then links(portkeys) and several immobile objects are drawn on top. One of the objects that appear late but are immobile is a gum wrapper completing number 3 in 713. Second is a gum wrapper - a part of L in "LILY", third is also a gum wrapper at the bottom of the screen, and forth is a squished piece of paper, appears on top of gum wrappers at the bottom of the page. (I will attach a screenshot later)

Are these objects going to become links when JKR decides to reveal more info?

There is something about these gum wrappers, all right.

Edit: Screenshot attached. The objects that appear late are outlined in pink. Hm...

[whizbang121]

Actually, it does appear to be, but in OofTP if you notice, he shows up as Algernon (I did know that). Either this is a mistake, or, they are relatives but there is definitely an Algernon Rookwood that is a death eater. It is Algernon in the British editions. The American edition is Augustus.
Also, someone mentioned that Dumbledore wears a vulture hat that he gets out of a christmas cracker and puts it on immediately. This is getting OT so I won't get into it, but I do not believe this is a coincidence. Though I don't think Dumbledore was or is a death eater (I think that's far too simple a solution) I don't believe he is to be trusted either - from evidence in the text. Maybe I'll have to start a new thread! There's a thread around somewhere about evil Dumbledore. It's an interesting topic, but not as interesting as Ron is Dumbledore gone back in time.

But the vulture hat is interesting in context. He was teasing Snape with it. :huh:

[grrliz]

However, for the gum wrapper, we have a woman who may want to communicate with the outside world but has difficulty, either because she is closely watched or has mental damage that interferes with communication. Some sort of a code makes a lot of sense in that case. She has plenty of time to play with letters and construct anagrams that give hints. this is the reason that I think that the anagrams, or some other form of message delivery, is a very reasonable possibility for these wrappers. In a lot of Muggle hospitals (he he) patients with injuries like those that Neville's parents have are often administered different therapies that often include problem solving tests, things like word association, finding an object that doesn't belong within a group of objects, establishing patterns between things, etc. What could be happening to Mrs. Longbottom is that she has something to convey to Neville and while she may not consciously be doing it through the gum wrappers, she might be subconsciously doing it through some form of communication her (possible) problem solving therapy taught her.

[whizbang121]

Okay, listening to PoA with kids.

Who chews gum? Kids chew gum, right? Well so does JKR, but .......Harry is eleven the first time he sees it, whatever that's worth.

In PoA Snape has the gryffindors and slytherins making a shrinking potion, which Neville botches up. Snape berates Neville and says something like " ... what do I have to do to get through your thick skull?" Later, he administers the potions to Trevor. If it's right, Trevor will turn into a tadpole, but if it's botched ......

As Hermione helped Neville fix his potion, Trevor does turn into a tadpole.

Is this a way to take a person back in time without altering time? If this potion was administered to the Longbottoms in small amounts, could they be "shrunk" to an age before the DE attack?

Have we discussed this before? :confused:

And, of course, in Help, when Paul was accidently "shrunk," he fell out of his clothes and had to wrap himself in a ..... GUM WRAPPER! ;)

[Lanc]

Regardless of his name (which, oddly enough seems to have changed between Gof and OotP - in my GoF he's named Augustus by Karkaroff while in OotP he's named Algernon by the Daily Prophet), wouldn't it be a bit hard for Rookwood to be involved with Neville? He was locked up in Azkaban after Karkaroff gave his evidence up to the Death Eater break out so I can't see a way that uncle Algie could be Rookwood.

[silver ink pot]

Whiz: Thanks for the Algernon/Augustus information! I had no idea!

And, of course, in Help, when Paul was accidently "shrunk," he fell out of his clothes and had to wrap himself in a ..... GUM WRAPPER!

OMG - I was just saying to my husband the Beatles Fan that as Harry's hair gets longer and longer, the last movie will be like the British Invasion, lol.

I'm going to try to find a picture of Paul wrapped in a gum wrapper! :cool:


Also, someone mentioned that Dumbledore wears a vulture hat that he gets out of a christmas cracker and puts it on immediately. This is getting OT so I won't get into it, but I do not believe this is a coincidence.

Neither do I, but I think Dumbledore is just having a little Christmas cheer with Snape. I do think it might be symbolic that Neville's Gran, Snape, and Dumbledore are wearing that hat. It is the hat of the mother goddesses of Egypt and means protection more than something evil. For more on Vultures and what they might mean, take a look at my thread on Egyptian Mythology:

http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=20899&highlight=Egyptian+Mythology

[GredandFeorge]

You guys are all awesome! Fabulous discussion thread - so glad to be a part of it - thanks!

[Kelfa21]

Just expanding on the shrinking potion theory a tad...what about that bell jar inside the DoM....obviously those effects transform a full grown man back into a child...I wonder if its possible that they can use this bell jar to an effect like that of the shrinking potion

Minimal useage of it? Maybe there is a very specific way of using it, like the time turner, in order to turn back time before they were afftected by the cruciatus curse

[whizbang121]

You should have seen the last one. :eyebrows:



OMG - I was just saying to my husband the Beatles Fan that as Harry's hair gets longer and longer, the last movie will be like the British Invasion, lol. Yeah, yeah, yeah....
British Rock Invasion. I'll get my albums out. Meet the Beatles?

I'm going to try to find a picture of Paul wrapped in a gum wrapper! :cool: Oh I hope you find a good one. There are quite a few Beatle fans here.[QUOTE=silver ink pot]
but I think Dumbledore is just having a little Christmas cheer with Snape. I do think it might be symbolic that Neville's Gran, Snape, and Dumbledore are wearing that hat. It is the hat of the mother goddesses of Egypt and means protection more than something evil. For more on Vultures and what they might mean, take a look at my thread on Egyptian Mythology:

http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=20899&highlight=Egyptian+Mythology
I love that thread. The stuff on the god, P'tah, gave me goosebumps. :agree:

[furryfreakferret]

Well, guys, sorry it took me so long. But I'm adjusting my clock for the school year and should have PLENTY of time to write posts. Forgive the longness of this one.

You know, the thought just occurred to me that perhaps the gum wrappers on JKR's desk are a clue to an actual plot element. Of course we have all thought that perhaps they are pointing to something with the number 713 - the vault being the strongest candidate. I am suggesting that the gum wrappers Neville has been receiving have been charmed so that when they get scattered, they guide themselves to form the number 713. Neville's mama know that he will save them sentimentally and that he drops things, so he'll get the chance to see the message when he drops a number of them. The message could even be something different than 713, with the desktop just suggesting the nethod of their sorting themselves. The charm could even be only effective in a particular person's presence to keep others from discovering the message. Or maybe... there's a charm on the gum wrappers which would give a faint tugging sort of feeling when held, and lead them through the tunnels of Gringotts straight to #713. WITHOUT getting lost and starving to death. :) I like it.

By the way, I actually got to go on the site. I looked and I saw no 713. But, I'll take the word of my friends for it. I was at the library so I couldn't sit there forever and it was a DSL connection which left the time for distinguishing things quite slim.

Okay, so first, I think we've gone WAY more than a toe over the line if we've begun looking for pictures in gum wrapper foil. (Although, I've just realized: the site answers the time-honored question of what wizarding gum wrappers look like!) But, when I looked at this attachment from whiz (http://www.cosforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15716) it looks as though there are a whole bunch of skulls. The Dark Mark on the site is a sign of a spoiler, is it not? In some of them, I can kind of almost see an axe going to someone's head. Maybe Snape's, maybe Sirius's. Though, really, I think when you turn it on it's side, like DragonBlk17 did (http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=1155388&postcount=84) it looks almost like the back of the American cover. With that open door with the shadow -- which I'm pretty sure is Neville -- in it.

The gum drew a feather, a beaker containing liquid, a spider, and a symbol of a leaf that partially obscures what looks like another leaf.
Arrows pointed from each of the four symbols into a cauldron that bore a question mark on the front of it. Oh! I can actually interpret that! Those four objects are collectable. If you click on them throughout the site, theydisappear. Is there perhaps a cauldron on the site somewhere where you could drop said objects? If there is, it seems it would make up a potion, possibly the cure for the Longbottoms. How friendly of her! She's going to let us join the effort!

The gum wrappers that spell 713 are next to the key.
This key is a link (portkey) to the room with all the awards (fan sites page). In that room the key is hanging next to the award cup. Name on the cup is Bellatrix Black. Gum wrappers => key to Bellatrix (?????)

The ponytail band next to wrappers: strechable, flexible, round, rubber.... Gum? Leads to something unknown yet, to be revealed later, book 6? Is there something? I wonder what Bellatrix could have been given an award for? What was going on while she was there? Well, if I've done my timeline right, there were a bunch of Death Eaters (herself, Lucius, Rabastan, Rodulphus, along with Snape and Peter) floating around. (Realize I'm just guessing the ages of most of these people.) All those refrences to bubblegum though.... Only thing is, she was still imprisioned in Azkaban.

So, Algernon Rookwood? See all the things we Americans miss? That's certainly fuel for the flames of Algie critics. Although, in the American version, Pye's the one with the corresponding name, so maybe we can't look into it too deeply.

[silver ink pot]

Well, here I am again, staying up all night just to do research on this thread!

I've been searching all over the internet for pictures of Paul McCartney in a gum wrapper and I found them! :cool:

Oh the things I don't know - I don't think I've seen the movie "HELP" since I was 6 years old!

Whiz - could it be that Alice is just asking for "HELP"????????

Here it is! Check out the huge ashtray!
http://beatleshelp.50megs.com/photos/paulfloor.jpg

Here he is sitting IN the ashtray, still wrapped in the gum wrapper!

http://beatleshelp.50megs.com/photos/ashtray.jpg

PLOT SUMMARY!!! Notice the character named Algernon!

The whole thing is about shrinking and restoring! The whole movie is sort of "Alice in Wonderland" - which, of course, reminds me of Alice Longbottom. I just don't believe this.

http://beatleshelp.50megs.com/summary/sum14.html

Ringo offers him some gum. George takes a piece and lets the wrapper fall to the floor. Paul asks Ahme if the extract is "mainlining or habit-forming," and George (referring to the gum) replies, "No, as long as you don't swallow it."
Meanwhile, Clang, Bhuta, and some of the Kaili are hiding in a van outside the Beatles' flat. Bhuta orders 4 of the thugs to "paint him red, then kill him." Clang exits the van with at least 3 more thugs. (So, that makes at least NINE Kaili stationed outside - in a moment, you'll see why I'm emphasizing how many there are...)

Back inside, Ahme assures Ringo that the extract will wear off very quickly. Suddenly, the doorbell rings. Ahme is so surprised that she drops the syringe, and it lands directly in Paul's leg! The shrinking solution quickly empties into Paul's leg, as Ringo looks on in horror.

Suddenly, the thugs begin pounding on George's & Paul's doors. Everyone turns to look, and when they look back at the bed, Paul has disappeared! Only his suit remains. The others realize that Paul must have shrunk, so they start to look for him on the bed and the floor. Which brings us to...

There's a closeup shot of an ashtray on the floor near Paul's bed. Paul's pants are hanging from the bed. Suddenly, something crawls out of the pants leg - it's mini-Paul! And he's naked! :-) He looks around, then spots George's gum wrapper on the floor. He grabs it, wraps it around his waist, and slowly walks towards the ashtray.

Back outside, Foot and Algernon (mad scientists) are approaching the Beatles' flat. Algernon is pushing a baby carriage (or pram, if you prefer) but instead of a baby, there's a record player (or victrola, if you prefer) inside. Foot stops him and warns him that they "don't want to be taken for innocent bystanders." Algernon plays the record, which is a recording of a baby crying loudly. Clang (on the opposite end of the Beatles' building) orders his men to stand by.

The thugs continue knocking, and the Beatles realize that they're going to break in. . . .

Anyway...one thug is dressed in blue and holding a sword, and the other is dressed in brown and holding a can of paint. For the rest of this summary, I'll just refer to them as "Sword Guy" and "Paint Guy," respectively. :-) Instead of breaking though one of the doors, Sword Guy leaps through John's window. (If you watch closely, you'll see that the actor bangs his head pretty hard on the table as he lands. Ouch!) Paul is so surprised, he nearly drops his gum wrapper!

. . . Meanwhile, John and George are busy checking their feet to see if they've stepped on Paul. Sword Guy grabs the sword and is about to kill Ringo when...

BLAM! Foot and Algernon burst through Paul's door, and Foot fires a gun at Sword Guy. The shot knocks the sword from his hands, and the two thugs immediately run out of the flat. Clang sees this and orders everyone to withdraw. (Well, if he'd sent in more than 2 people to begin with, he might have had more success!) :-P

Foot orders everyone to get up. Paul climbs out of the ashtray and retreats back to the pants leg. John, George and Ringo gather near Paul's bed. Foot (still pointing the gun at the Beatles) demands the ring "in the name of science." Ringo gladly says, "It's yours, it's yours!" but he can't pull the ring off of his finger. He begins to stamp on the floor, until he realizes that he could be stepping on the miniature Paul! He points to a spot on his shoe, and asks, "Hey, is that Paul?"

Foot tells Algernon that he'll need to operate to get the ring of Ringo's hand. Algernon sits on Paul's bed next to the empty suit - except, it's not empty any more! Algernon leaps up in surprise as a full-sized Paul appears on the bed next to him. Paul complains that he's all sticky, and suddenly notices that Ringo's all red and that Foot and Algernon are there.

As Foot and Algernon are distracted by Paul, John picks up another lamp again and threatens the scientists. Foot fires the gun, but it's out of bullets. John orders Foot and Algernon to "get out," and they do so.

[HarryPotter]

Hehehe! I have the VHS of Help! (Inconditional Beatles fan here! :p)
I have to re-watch it again... from a HP fan perspective! :p

(Hey, John kind of looks like Harry!)

[Arithmancy]

Silver, firstly, thanks for the effort! :tu:

[totally insane but exiting parallels]

Ashtray. Note the reccurent motif: letter V made out of matches; letter V made out of Paul's body and ...(what is it? pattern on the ashtray's inner surface?) With Beatles V is for victory, with HP V is for Vlodemort. There are many V's formed by various crossed objects on JKR's site.

Symbolism:

Paul is naked. Nakedness is symbolic for being defensless. Paul "protects" himself with gum wrapper. Paul = Neville?

Gum wrapper came from George, offered by Ringo. Ringo and George = Alice and Frank? Did they set up some plan (charm, whatever) to protect Neville?

Algernon and Foot want to take ring from Ringo. They play the record of crying baby? = DEs hurting Neville to extract information from Frank and Alice?
Ringo wants to give it, but can't, and he is afraid to hurt mini-Paul in process. = Frank and Alice did not know or could not tell whatever DEs were asking, Neville was in danger?

Full-sized-again Paul = grown up Neville. He is a little out of it, but his appearance helps John (John does look like Harry/James!!!) to vanquish the bad guys. Foot's weapon is useless against John.

Now what to make of Sword Guy and Paint Guy? Sword is for killing, Paint is for marking. But Voldemort did not kill Neville, and he did not mark him as equal - although he intended to after he is through with Harry.
The Paint Guy and Sword Guy are not sucessful because Foot shot his gun. (Now here I admit it is getting a little confusing. The best I can do is "one bad guy shot another = Voldemort's AK backfired" A bit lame.)

[/totally insane stuff]

He-he! This is so much fun! :cool:

[whizbang121]

Well, here I am again, staying up all night just to do research on this thread!

I've been searching all over the internet for pictures of Paul McCartney in a gum wrapper and I found them! :cool:

Oh the things I don't know - I don't think I've seen the movie "HELP" since I was 6 years old!

Whiz - could it be that Alice is just asking for "HELP"????????

Here it is! Check out the huge ashtray!
http://beatleshelp.50megs.com/photos/paulfloor.jpg

Here he is sitting IN the ashtray, still wrapped in the gum wrapper!

http://beatleshelp.50megs.com/photos/ashtray.jpg

PLOT SUMMARY!!! Notice the character named Algernon!

The whole thing is about shrinking and restoring! The whole movie is sort of "Alice in Wonderland" - which, of course, reminds me of Alice Longbottom. I just don't believe this.

http://beatleshelp.50megs.com/summary/sum14.html

[


:wow:

OMG

All this time we've been worrying about Star Wars, and .......


Off to .... um, cogitate. (Where did I put the antacids?)

[silver ink pot]

Hehehe! I have the VHS of Help! (Inconditional Beatles fan here! :p)
I have to re-watch it again... from a HP fan perspective! :p

(Hey, John kind of looks like Harry!)

Oh, I'm so jealous! I have to get a copy! ;)

My husband is one of the world's biggest Beatles fans. He has every book ever written about them, and it takes up four shelves in our living room!!! I turned to him last night and said, "Why didn't you ever tell me about Paul being wrapped in a gum wrapper???" :grumble: He just stared at me and said, "Well that movie is really bad." OMG. :rolleyes: As if that mattered, when this is so amazing!

I always knew that the Beatles would play a role, and I've always thought Harry looked like John.

Arithmancy: Your wonderful analysis - really wonderful! :clap: - made me think that Neville really could have been hidden with shrinking solution, perhaps even wrapped in a gum wrapper, instead of a blanket! That would explain the Neville/Trevor/shrinking solution scene in the book, and why we are told about it. There is a connection there - I'm sure of that now! In the movie, Ringo is told that the solution will wear off quickly. In the book, Snape has to add something to make Trevor come back, right?

Look at my signature picture - Snape's hair makes a V! I've always found that interesting, but still don't know if it means anything. :huh:

Whiz: Bring the entire bottle of antacids, lol. I need some too. :p

[Arithmancy]

Look at my signature picture - Snape's hair makes a V! I've always found that interesting, but still don't know if it means anything. :huh:

Snape's hair in your sig (the two strands on his forehead) looks to me like an infinity sign, rotated 90 degrees.
No doubt it symbolyzes his infinite wisdom. :rotfl:

[whizbang121]

So, common elements between Neville, Voldemort and a lot of Gum and The Exciting Adventure of Paul on the Floor
Gum wrapers, a woman, (and a woman with a secret agenda, at
that), with a shrinking solution, the color orange, thugs, stalwart
friends, clashing cultures, the impotence of science, religion and law enforcement agencies. In Help! there are references to the importance of blood and blood sacrifice and it's substitute, red paint. But Help! does not have an evil megalomaniac trying to take over the world.

Lennon also had that ability to say more than one thing with a single
sentence, or to twist words and phrases to a different meaning.
That "spartan wit" thing described him as perfectly as it does JKR.
He was always listening for someone to pick up an alternate meaning .... or two.


I'm listening to "She's Leaving Home." Think it will become Dudley's theme song someday?

Okay, now we need a thread to explore the influence of the Beatles on Harry Potter.

:wow: Who knew? :rotfl:

[silver ink pot]

Whizbang: John Lennon definitely embodied the "Spartan Wit." He loved puns. He would have loved Harry Potter, I'm sure of that!

A link to the pictures that show the matches in the ashtray shaped like a V. Thanks, Arithmancy! I missed that detail when I was looking around last night - perhaps because I was half asleep.

http://beatleshelp.50megs.com/summary/caps/14_pfloor1.jpg

http://beatleshelp.50megs.com/summary/caps/14_pfloor5.jpg

OK, so if Harry is John, and Paul is Neville, we just need to figure out George and Ringo.

We should look for the "red paint" - whatever it might be, to find our Ringo. They keep throwing red paint on Ringo to protect him from the bad guys.

George was the one who ate the gum and threw the wrapper on the floor.

I'm telling all of you: this week has been the most fun time I've ever had on this thread!

[whizbang121]

This is my post (http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=1049275&postcount=1102) from the last Layers thread, when JKR dropped her small bomb about Mark Evans. Suddenly, I find the attachment hilarious.

Oh don't know. I think John and Paul are more like Fred and George or James and Sirius. Harry is more Ringo. He's the guy whose sacrifice will appease the angry god. George is the spiritual guide of the group.

Does tht make George a Lupin character?

The Beatles are the marauders! But Ringo is NOT wormtail.

[Kelfa21]

You guys are absolutly amazing...my uncle owned the VHS version of Help and I saw it once a very long time ago...well before I had ever gotten my hands on a copy of Harry Potter. Given the fact that both of my parents and many of my aunts and uncles are still obsessive Beatles fans...I wonder if I can still find a VHS copy of Help.

Has JK ever been quoted by saying she is a huge Beatles fan? She was probably very young when they were popular.

Anybody think its strange that, even though Ringo was supposed to recieve the shrinking solution..Paul got it instead?

[silver ink pot]

I was driving around today think about who is George, and I think maybe Hermione is George? She's the "serious one," lol. Ron could be Ringo - the red paint=red hair? Oh, I don't know! :evil:

I just thought Harry was John because of the charisma and the glasses.

Another thing I was thinking about is the term "Bubble Gum Pop" as in, Pop Music. John Lennon hated what he called "bubble gum" music, and he resented it when the Beatles were considered pop musicians. But if you do a Google search for John Lennon quotations, that phrase will come up.

I've been looking around on the Internet and it seems that John Lennon chewed gum compulsively, even while onstage and often while singing. Here is an anecdote about something he did to a musician named Roy Young while in Hamburg. John spit gum at him and hit him in the nose.

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:1u528SIeDXEJ:www.royyoung.com/pages/rockTales/johnLennon.html+john+lennon++gum&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

When The Beatles invited me to play piano with them at the Star-Club, Hamburg, Germany, a microphone was placed between John Lennon and I to sing harmonies. John was always chewing gum. In my curiosity during a break between songs, I asked him, “John, How can you sing while chewing gum?”. He looked at me and smiled but didn’t say anything.
As we were going into the next song I could see a perpetual grin on John’s face. I knew he was up to something because he was one of those characters that loved to fool around and play pranks. Halfway through the song he was chewing away at the gum with this huge smile on his face. As we were about to sing, he spat the gum, it hit my nose and stuck there. I left it there seeing the funny side of it. John fell to the floor in tears of laughter. I felt like pinocchio.

Paul and George on the other side of the stage were wondering what the hell was going on. When they saw the gum on my nose they also fell to the floor in hysterics. The chances of this happening was one in a million. The problem was, John would pursue the same thing every night, hitting me on the forehead, chin, cheek or wherever, but we always had a great time.

Here is one more thing - a musical influence on the Beatles who wrote a "Pop" song about bubblegum. His name is "Donegan" - what was the name of the wizard of the month last month? The one with long hair who was named Doneghan? Doneghal? I don't know, but this rang a bell.

http://www.billboard.com/bb/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1754802

'Skiffle' King Lonnie Donegan Dies

Lonnie Donegan, a musician whose "skiffle" sound inspired John Lennon and Pete Townshend to learn to play guitar, has died. Donegan died yesterday (Nov. 3) in Peterborough, central England, while on a tour of Britain, his publicist said. He was 71 and had suffered several heart attacks.

Donegan's hits included "Does Your Chewing Gum Lose Its Flavor (on the Bedpost Overnight)," "My Old Man's a Dustman," and "Rock Island Line," but he may have been more important to British music for inspiring young talents to imitate and then eclipse his success.

Lyrics to the song "Does Your Chewing Gum Lose Its Flavor":

http://www.webfitz.com/lyrics/Lyrics/1961/521961.html

[whizbang121]

:wow: I sing that song to the kids all the time. I learned it from Sharon Lois and Bram's Elephant Show. :scared: Is this getting a little ... wierd?
JKR's bio page on her site has references to musicians and shows.

Doesn't Dumbledore like polkas and chamber music?

I'm convinced that John is Sirius Black. A bit mad. A prankster. A mad gum chewer. I can see him in my mind working on a piece of gum. The Shea Stadium concert.

Okay so Alice and Frank were clearly Beatles fans. And the gum is just amazingly connected. And then Donegan with the gum..

SIP you should get an award for research. Or better yet, a paycheck. That's amazing stuff you came up with. Could be another essay for GW.

[HarryPotter]

Insane Random thoughts mixing Beatles and Harry Potter at 3:25 am:
Hermione Granger: HG - George Harrison: GH
McCartney - McGonagall
And John definitely looks like Harry/James
Rowling said in one interview that her favourite band were the beatles, and that herself felt like George Harrison sometimes... :p
Doesn't Harry get out of trouble "With A Little Help From My Friends"?


Now take a look at this:

Beatles 'treasure' a mystery
13/07/2004 14:02 - (SA)

Sydney - An Australian music expert questioned on Tuesday how a potential trove of Beatles memorabilia thought to belong to a bouncer shot dead by Los Angeles police almost three decades ago ended up in a sleepy town Down Under.
And lawyers warned the British tourist who bought the supposedly "lost" Beatles artefacts for a pittance at a flea market that he was not guaranteed to make a fortune, even if the goods proved genuine.
Briton Fraser Claughton told The Times newspaper this week that he stumbled across the collection in a battered suitcase at a market in the hamlet of Lara, north of Melbourne, and snapped it up for just A$50.
Experts told the newspaper the collection of around 400 photographs, concert programmes and sealed tapes marked "Abbey Road" - the Beatles' favoured recording studio - could contain previously unheard Beatles songs.
It is thought to be the long-lost archive of Mal Evans, a close associate of the Beatles throughout the band's career.
But Australian rock historian Glenn Baker was sceptical about the collection's authenticity, although he said that if it was genuine it was pop music's equivalent of the holy grail.
Confusion
"If it is what it is, my instincts tell me that a good way to claim no attachment is to say it was found at a flea market," Baker said. "If this is Mal Evans' archive, Mal had unlimited, unprecedented, incomparable access to The Beatles."
There was confusion about how an Evans' collection, supposedly compiled for a never-completed memoir, emerged in such obscure circumstances.
According to old news stories and potted biographies on Beatles fan websites, Evans was working for the post office in Liverpool when he first heard the Fab Four playing at the Cavern Club in 1962.
He struck up a friendship with the band and was hired as a bouncer, soon working his way up to be Beatles road manager and back-up musician on records such as Rubber Soul and Sgt Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band.
After the Beatles announced their split in 1970, Evans moved to Los Angeles, where in 1976 he was shot dead by police after brandishing an unloaded rifle following a row with his girlfriend.
The only mention of him visiting Australia is during The Beatles 1964 tour there, years before the Abbey Road tapes were made.
Legal minefield
Emile Verfurth, who runs a market in Victoria state close to the site where the suitcase was found, said he was staggered.
"It's unbelievable. I can't believe that it has found its way to Australia and the market," he said. "I've never heard of anything like this."
Previous items of Evans' memorabilia have proved a legal minefield, with Paul McCartney taking his widow Lily to court in 1996 to prevent her auctioning a set of original lyrics to With A Little Help From My Friends.
McCartney claimed that the lyrics were picked up by Mal Evans as part of his duties as a Beatles employee and were held on behalf of the Beatles.
Australian Copyright Council executive officer Libby Baulch said the same conditions could apply to the recently unearthed find, particularly if the legality of how it was originally obtained was questionable.
Baulch said the new owner's use of the archive would be strictly controlled.
"He might find himself owning scraps of paper and bits of vinyl or tape, but he won't be able to reproduce them or record them because the copyright will still rest with the original owner," she said.


Ok... enough insanity for today...

[whizbang121]

Mal Evans?! :wow:

Isn't that awfully close to Mal foy? Lily Evans? Mark Evans? It anagrams to ...

:blush: Uh oh.

Okay, this is really getting ... strange. Some of you know I have a theory I'm working on called "hiding in plain view" which involves the marauders in particular having alter egos with the same initials. Then there are the portraits .....

This just gave me the willies.


Excerpt

The following is an excerpt from the book Paul McCartney: Many Years From Now
by Barry Miles
Published by Henry Holt and Company, Inc.; Nov. 97
Copyright © 1997 Barry Miles
Sgt. Pepper

Paul, with Mal Evans, had a relaxing safari in Kenya, visiting the Ambosali Park at the foot of Mount Kilimanjaro, and staying at the exclusive Treetops Hotel, where the rooms are built up among the branches of ancient trees. Their final night in Africa was spent at a YMCA in Nairobi before returning to London on 19 November 1966. It was on the flight back that Paul came up with the idea for Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band.

It was a long plane journey but rather than sleep Paul stayed awake writing and playing with ideas. The freedom he had experienced while driving through France in disguise at the beginning of the holiday had given him the idea of creating a new identity for the Beatles: by not being the Fab Four they could try something new, experiments and show the fans that they had grown up.

PAUL: We were fed up with being the Beatles. We really hated that f***** four little mop-top boys approach. We were not boys, we were men. It was all gone, all that boy s***, all that screaming, we didn't want any more, plus, we'd now ( ) thought of ourselves as artists rather than just performers. There was now more to it; not only had John and I been writing, George had been writing, we'd been in films, John had written books, so it was natural that we should become artists.

Then suddenly on the plane I got this idea. I thought, Let's not be ourselves. Let's develop alter egos so we're not having to project an image which we know. It would be much more free. What would really be interesting would be to actually take on the personas of this different band. We could say, 'How would somebody else sing this? He might approach it a bit more sarcastically, perhaps.' So I had this idea of giving the Beatles alter egos simply to get a different approach; then when John came up to the microphone or I did, it wouldn't be John or Paul singing, it would be the members of this band. It would be a freeing element. I thought we can run this philosophy through the whole album: with this alter-ego band, it won't be us making all that sound., it won't be the Beatles, it'll be this other band, so we'll be able to lose our identities in this.

The first thing Paul needed was a name for the Doppelganger-Beatles. This was the heyday of fantastically named groups: the Nitty Gritty Dirt Band, Country Joe and the Fish, Lothar and the Hand People, Big Brother and the Holding Company, Quicksilver Messenger Service, the Bonzo Dog Doo-Dah Band. Precedents for extravagance were not hard to find.

PAUL: Me and Mal often bantered words about which led to the rumour that he thought of the name Sergeant Pepper, but I think it would be much more likely that it was me saying, 'Think of names.' We were having our meal and they had those little packets marked 'S' and 'P'. Mal said, 'What's that mean? Oh, salt and pepper.' We had a joke about that. So I said, 'Sergeant Pepper,' just to, vary it, 'Sergeant Pepper, salt and pepper,' an aural pun, not mishearing him but just playing with the words.

Then, 'Lonely Hearts Club', that's a good one. There's lot of those about, the equivalent of a dating agency now. I just strung those together rather in the way that you might string together Dr Hook and the Medicine Show. All that culture of the sixties going back to those travelling medicine men, Gypsies, it echoed back to the previous century really. I just fantasised, well, 'Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band'. That'd be crazy enough because why would a Lonely Hearts Club have a band? If it had been Sergeant Pepper's British Legion Band, that's more understandable. The idea was to be a little more funky, that's what everybody was doing. That was the fashion. The idea was just take any words that would flow. I wanted a string of those things because I thought that would be a natty idea instead of a catchy title. People would have to say, 'What?' We'd had quite a few pun titles - Rubber Soul, Revolver - so this was to get away from all that.

Back in London, Paul put the idea to the other Beatles.

PAUL: They were a bit bemused at first, I think, but they said, 'Yeah, that'll be great.' There wasn't any hard sell needed. Everyone was into it. It was a direction for an album. I had the name so then it was, 'Let's find roles for these people. Let's even get costumes for them for the album cover. Let them all choose what they want.' We didn't go as far as getting names for ourselves, but I wanted a background for the group, so I asked everyone in the group to write down whoever their idols were, whoever you loved. And it got quite funny, footballers: Dixie Dean, who's an old Everton footballer, Billy Liddle's a Liverpool player. The kind of people we'd heard our parents talk about, we didn't really know about people like Dixie Dean. There's a few like that, and then folk heroes like Albert Einstein and Aldous Huxley, all the influences from Indica like William Burroughs, and of course John, the rebel, put in Hitler and Jesus, which EMI wouldn't allow, but that was John. I think John often did that just for effect really. I first of all envisioned a photograph the group just sitting with a line of portraits of Marlon Brando, James Dean, Einstein and everyone around them in a sitting room, and we'd just sit there as a portrait.

We were starting to amass a list of who everybody's favourites were, and I started to get this idea that Beatles were in a park up north somewhere and it was very municipal, it was very council. I like that northern thing very much, which is what we were, where we were from. I had the idea to be in a park and in front of us to have a huge floral clock, which is a big feature of all those parks: Harrogate, everywhere, every park you went into then had a floral clock. We were sitting around talking about it, 'Why do they do a clock made out of flowers?' Very conceptual, it never moves, it just grows and time is therefore nonexistent, but the clock is growing and it was like, 'Wooah! The frozen floral clock.'

So the second phase of the idea was to have these guys in their new identity, in their costumes, being presented with the Freedom of the City or a cup, by the Lord. Mayor in all his regalia, and I thought of it as a town up north, standing on a little rostrum with a few dignitaries and the band, above a floral clock. We always liked to take those ordinary facts of northern working-class life, like the clock, and mystify them and glamorise them and make them into something more magical, more universal. ( ) So we would be in presentation mode, which led on very Victorian, from the portrait. When Peter Blake got involved, the portrait idea grew. We had the big list of heroes: maybe they could all be in the crowd at the presentation!

Sgt. Pepper is often described as the first concept album, but it was not initially conceived as such. There was never the intention to make a themed album, a 'northern' album, or present a mini-opera as the Who did later. Though both Rubber Soul and Revolver had experimental tracks, Paul's notion of the group being Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band, rather than the four mop tops, liberated the Beatles to range across the musical landscape. Paul: 'With our alter egos we could do a bit of B. B. King, a bit of Stockhausen, a bit of Albert Ayler, a bit of Ravi Shankar, a bit of Pet Sounds, a bit of the Doors; it didn't matter, there was no pigeon-holing like there had been before.' It freed them from their public image and allowed them to take a new, unfettered direction; it gave them the distance necessary to attempt something as extraordinary as 'A Day in the Life'.

It's pretty long. Here's the whole excerpt. (http://www.rarebeatles.com/manyyrs.htm)

John said that the psychedelic imagery was inspired by the 'Wool and Water' chapter of Lewis Carroll's Through the Looking Glass: '... she found they were in a little boat, gliding along between banks: so there was nothing for it but to do her best.' It also captures the languid shifting imagery of the book's final poem:

A boat, beneath a sunny sky,
Lingering onward dreamily
In an evening of July --

PAUL: John had the title and he had the first verse. It started off very Alice in Wonderland: 'Picture yourself in a boat, on the river …' It's very Alice. Both of us had read the Alice books and always referred to them, we were always talking about 'Jabberwocky' and we knew those more than any other books really. And when psychedelics came in, the heady quality of them was perfect. So we just went along with it. I sat there and wrote it with him: I offered 'cellophane flowers' and 'newspaper taxis' and John replied with 'kaleidoscope eyes'. I remember which was which because we traded words off each other, as we always did ... And in our mind it was an Alice thing, which both of us loved.
Had to put that one in. ;)

And this: 'Getting Better' I wrote on my magic Binder, Edwards and Vaughan piano in my music room. It had a lovely tone, that piano, you'd just open the lid and there was such a magic tone, almost out of tune, and of course the way it was painted added to the fun of it all. It's an optimistic song. I often try and get on to optimistic subjects in an effort to cheer myself up and also, realising that other people are going to hear this, to cheer them up too. And this was one of those. The 'angry young man' and all that was John and I filling in the verses about schoolteachers. We shared a lot of feelings against teachers who had punished you too much or who hadn't understood you or who had just been *******s generally. So there are references to them.

[silver ink pot]

Insane Random thoughts mixing Beatles and Harry Potter at 3:25 am:
Hermione Granger: HG - George Harrison: GH
McCartney - McGonagall
And John definitely looks like Harry/James
Rowling said in one interview that her favourite band were the beatles, and that herself felt like George Harrison sometimes... :p
Doesn't Harry get out of trouble "With A Little Help From My Friends"?

Previous items of Evans' memorabilia have proved a legal minefield, with Paul McCartney taking his widow Lily to court in 1996 to prevent her auctioning a set of original lyrics to With A Little Help From My Friends.
McCartney claimed that the lyrics were picked up by Mal Evans as part of his duties as a Beatles employee and were held on behalf of the Beatles.



I see Hermione as George, too! George is my all-time favorite Beatle, though I love them all. Have you ever seen the film he made for the song "Crackerbox Palace"? He wrote it about his family home, which was so small that with all his brothers and sisters in it it seemed like a Crackerbox. At the end, it shows his real home, a castle. I always think of that song when I read Book 1 because the Dursley's home seems so small, and the cupboard, of course, is extremely small!

Smack my head! OMG. George "Harrison" - do you see a "Harry" in there somewhere? :evil:

Mal??? Evans??? I saw that name on the site about HELP!, and never even caught it! Ever since the Mark Evans snafu, I go berserk when I hear the name Evans. But his widow was named LILY????????

Whiz: Hand me the chocolate and maybe some firewhiskey. We've gone through the looking-glass. Or maybe we did that a long time ago! :p

And as far as getting awards for research, you were the one who said "don't forget Paul McCartney in HELP! when he had to wear a gum wrapper." That's what started our brainstorm!

You have found some awesome stuff, Whizbang and HarryPotter! I am reading all this with my mouth open. We are all going down the yellow brick road together!

Originally Posted by Paul McCartney: Many Years From Now

PAUL: Me and Mal often bantered words about which led to the rumour that he thought of the name Sergeant Pepper, but I think it would be much more likely that it was me saying, 'Think of names.' We were having our meal and they had those little packets marked 'S' and 'P'. Mal said, 'What's that mean? Oh, salt and pepper.' We had a joke about that. So I said, 'Sergeant Pepper,' just to, vary it, 'Sergeant Pepper, salt and pepper,' an aural pun, not mishearing him but just playing with the words.

Then, 'Lonely Hearts Club', that's a good one. There's lot of those about, the equivalent of a dating agency now. I just strung those together rather in the way that you might string together Dr Hook and the Medicine Show. All that culture of the sixties going back to those travelling medicine men, Gypsies, it echoed back to the previous century really. I just fantasised, well, 'Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band'. That'd be crazy enough because why would a Lonely Hearts Club have a band? If it had been Sergeant Pepper's British Legion Band, that's more understandable. The idea was to be a little more funky, that's what everybody was doing. That was the fashion. The idea was just take any words that would flow. I wanted a string of those things because I thought that would be a natty idea instead of a catchy title. People would have to say, 'What?' We'd had quite a few pun titles - Rubber Soul, Revolver - so this was to get away from all that.

OK, I'm jumping off the deep end now:
S&P are "Salt and Pepper" = Sergeant Pepper
S&P = Sirius and Potter???

I'm running away now to research Sergeant Pepper lyrics, and search for gum references!

[furryfreakferret]

On "Help", I notice that this Algernon character is pushing a baby cart and playing a recording of a crying baby. Unfortunatly, Rookwood was fighting Kingsley in the Death Room, so unless he somehow returned his head to normal, he can't be the baby-headed Death Eater. Or we could assume its pointing to Uncle Algie being evil? I always thought that bringing Neville a plant from Assyria, a country which no longer exists, but was warlike when it did, was very suspicious. (Assyria, in case anyone is wondering, is now Iraq.) The movie does remind of "Alice in Wonderland" though, doesn't it?

We should look for the "red paint" - whatever it might be, to find our Ringo. They keep throwing red paint on Ringo to protect him from the bad guys. Stinksap? So, if Neville and Harry have already been identified, that leaves Ginny or Luna? Oh dear, Beatlemania was before my time. This is all flying over my head! Though I must admit, I think I like whiz's assement best -- no offense to the rest of you. The Fab Four represent the Maurauders!

Oh! I've heard of that song! "Does Your Chewing Gum Lose Its Flavor"! Do I dare ask my father to recall it? :scared:

Oh whiz! Don't hold it to yourself! What are we anagraming now!

Anyway, I'm off. See you guys later!

[HarryPotter]

Ok, now this is weird... interview to John Lennon (Octiber 10, 1963)


Q: "Written any good comic poems lately?"
JOHN: "Yes."
(interviewer hands John a piece of paper containing one of Lennon's poems. The other Beatles giggle)
Q: (laughs) "I just happened to have it here by sheerest coincidence."
JOHN: "'Dressed in my brown...' Oh no, I've lost it. Hold on. I can't read it, you see. I've only just written it. (giggles) Well, that's how it starts, actually!"
Q: (laughs)
JOHN: (reads) "Dressed in my teenold brown sweater I easily micked with crown at Neville Club, a seemy hole. Soon all but soon people accoustic me saying such thing as 'where the charge man?'"

And these Beatles Bubble Gum...

http://www.rarebeatles.com/photopg2/eatthe.htm

[offca]

guys, you are scaring me.
it is amazing! how could you find such things! I am for sure not a Beatles fan, and as I am not from Britain they are not a part of my "must" culture and social life.

if that is true... it is so amazing. I know I do not add anything, but just wanted to show my respect to your briliant minds :clap:

[whizbang121]

For the love of the fab four... How did I forget?!!!!!




All those beatle cards I collected in the early sixties came with .... BUBBLE GUM!!!

Wish they were winking and smiling. ;)

And remember Jane Asher, the redheaded actress Paul lived with for awhile?

All Paul needs are glasses and they are the image of James and Lily.

Can you believe that Mal Evans' wife's name is Lily?! Wonder if she has red hair, too.

They were a bunch of good natured, even good hearted troublemakers. And they did delight in getting us all into trouble, dragging us in their wake into a new era. (All those cheering charms.:scared: )

We did worry that Paul (James ?) was dead, but he wasn't. (Backwards tracking. Bare feet. Something about a Volkswagon beetle's licence plate.)
And then John (Sirius ?)was! Murdered by a madman, at that.

Now, George, (Lupin ?) has died of a long illness. :(

The only thing that doesn't fit is Ringo. There are some aspects of his being shorter that the other three six footers, and less inclined to artsyness or composition. But to the best of my knowledge, certainly not weak or a turncoat.

I guess he might be considered a bit of a tagalong, though.

Paul is Dead. (http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/3674/pid.html)

And another. (http://www.getback.org/bpidnew.html)

The Mirror of Erised had a backwards sentence across the top of the frame.

This whole "Paul is dead" thing is freaky. There's a horrific car crash, a guy in polyjuice potion with a scar on his lip,

[Nagisa]

How did this turn into a thread about the Beatles? :wow:

I was just going to say that I just reread Prisoner of Azkaban this week, and at the part where Harry is in Zonko's, the description of Drooble's Best Blowing Gum:

(which filled a room with bluebell-coloured bubbles that refused to pop for days)

So I'm going to repeat my earlier point -- I really don't think there's any way that a nurse would let that stuff in the ward, especially not in large quantities. Could you imagine the whole place filled up with giant blue bubbles? So where are they getting the wrappers?

[whizbang121]

How did this turn into a thread about the Beatles? :wow:

I was just going to say that I just reread Prisoner of Azkaban this week, and at the part where Harry is in Zonko's, the description of Drooble's Best Blowing Gum:

So I'm going to repeat my earlier point Why? Some of us read posts. -- I really don't think there's any way that a nurse would let that stuff in the ward, especially not in large quantities. Could you imagine the whole place filled up with giant blue bubbles? So where are they getting the wrappers? Good question! For all we know, Neville brings her the gum when he visits and she saves the wrappers for him.

"Yeah! Yeah! Yeah!" (She Loves You ~ The Beatles)

Bluebell bubbles. Don't pop for days. Christmas ornaments. Hermione makes waterproof bluebell fire. Ingredients on a gum wrapper. Anagrams. Lucius is evil. Walter Scott, Lockhart and Cruikshanks. Loads of stuff here and on V1. :agree:

In the movie Help! Paul is accidently shrunk, (see: shrinking solution) and uses a Gum Wrapper to put around himself. Is Alice asking for help. It's really interesting. This whole page is recommended reading. :agree:

[silver ink pot]

On "Help", I notice that this Algernon character is pushing a baby cart and playing a recording of a crying baby. Unfortunatly, Rookwood was fighting Kingsley in the Death Room, so unless he somehow returned his head to normal, he can't be the baby-headed Death Eater.

For some reason this image made me laugh. Algernon/Augustus Rookwood's head being small while fighting with Kingsley, lol. :p


Or we could assume its pointing to Uncle Algie being evil? I always thought that bringing Neville a plant from Assyria, a country which no longer exists, but was warlike when it did, was very suspicious. (Assyria, in case anyone is wondering, is now Iraq.) The movie does remind of "Alice in Wonderland" though, doesn't it?

Assyria is an interesting choice for a country of origin - The Hanging Gardens of Babylon - Iraq - Mesopotamia. Very ancient - full of ancient magic. Used to worship bulls.

But there is another thing, too. In the book Catch-22, an anti-war book which I read in college and that shows how old I am, the main character "Yossarian" is an "Assyrian," and of course he's also an American. But when he tells people his nationality, they just stare at him. There are alot of puns in that book, too. There is a character who comes from a military family and his last name is "Major." His father names him "Major" as a joke, so he is christened "Major Major." Then he becomes a 2-star Major, or something like that, so his official name is "Major Major Major Major." It's really silly. Yossarian is played by Alan Arkin in the movie - I love him. He becomes sick of war and dropping bombs on people because he has a conscience unlike alot of military people. It's been years since I read it, so I should look at that again.

Back to gum:

In Sergeant Pepper, there is a character named "Billy Shears." Remember Neville's dream about the giant scissors wearing his Grandmother's hat? Shears, get it?

Here is an early quote from John about his addiction to gum:

http://www.geocities.com/~beatleboy1/db81365.pc.html

Q: "John, do you always do press conferences chewing gum?"

JOHN: "Uhh, no. Only in America."

Q: "Only in America you chew gum?"

JOHN: "'Cuz people give you gum all the time over here."

Whiz: Here is a famous picture of Mal Evans in the giant teacup ride at Disney Land with Julian Lennon:

http://www.maypang.com/Photos/3mal_julian.html

Here's a wild theory - Neville was shrunken, wrapped in a gum wrapper, and put into a teacup, where someone found him the next day!

This picture was taken by May Pang, a friend of Yoko Ono's who once had a fling with John Lennon. She and Mal Evans must have been babysitting. May Pang sounds like Cho Chang - what do you think?

[whizbang121]

Does that Mal Evans look a little like Gary Oldman? Hey, wasn't Snape in that teacup? :lol:

Reading through this thread, it occurs to me that JKR set on this path deliberately with her Mark Evans answer.

She practically described the Beatles escaping to the Bahamas in Help!

And remember on JKR's site when she gave her first site award, it was to a website that had a lot of artwork. She mentioned that she was particularly fond of a picture of the marauders that she thought was very accurate to how she saw them, and that she had used the picture as her desktop wallpaper. When I saw picture, my first thought was of the Beatle cartoons.



Yes ... there were Beatle cartoons.;) I'm old. :D

Yipes! Double posting is back! :grumble:

Did I mention that McCartney's first name is James? Paul is his middle name. John's middle name is Winston. He was supposedly born during a bombing raid. John was a Libra, my sign of choice for Sirius.

[codswallop]

Or we could assume its pointing to Uncle Algie being evil? I always thought that bringing Neville a plant from Assyria, a country which no longer exists, but was warlike when it did, was very suspicious. (Assyria, in case anyone is wondering, is now Iraq.) The movie does remind of "Alice in Wonderland" though, doesn't it?

JKR also uses Transylvannia which is not a country but a region of Romania, Perhaps Wizards have different boundries than Muggle government. (GOF Quiddich World Cup, don't have page number, my dad has my copy)

[Dr Hesper]

How did this turn into a thread about the Beatles? :wow:Good question. *Sigh*
So I'm going to repeat my earlier point -- I really don't think there's any way that a nurse would let that stuff in the ward, especially not in large quantities. Could you imagine the whole place filled up with giant blue bubbles? So where are they getting the wrappers?I dont think the healer would allow it either. I cant imagine her giving mental patients gum or allowing anyone else to give them gum either. My dad has alzheimers and we'd never give him gum. But the wrappers are coming from somewhere. Is it possible the Longbottoms are capable of summoning insignificant little wrappers to give to Neville? Do they have magical capability without the use of their wands? What about house elves? Every other institution seems to have them. Are there house elves at St. Mungos? Did the Longbottoms have a house elf?
Or we could assume its pointing to Uncle Algie being evil? I always thought that bringing Neville a plant from Assyria, a country which no longer exists, but was warlike when it did, was very suspicious. (Assyria, in case anyone is wondering, is now Iraq.)Glad you brought this up! Time travel is a theme that has been discussed in some threads and is something I think will be important in due course. Is it possible that Algie did, in fact, travel to Assyria and get that plant? He'd have had to go back in time to do so. If so, did he go simply to get that plant? Or was there another reason? (Werent there magic carpets in the legends of Assyria? Arent they banned for some reason in England?) :clap:

[whizbang121]

It's a thread about gum and gum wrappers.

Magic carpets are banned because of something like the misuse of muggle artifacts act, or somesuch.

Got gum? :eyebrows:



This picture was taken by May Pang, a friend of Yoko Ono's who once had a fling with John Lennon. She and Mal Evans must have been babysitting. May Pang sounds like Cho Chang - what do you think?

:rolleyes: I just caught that. :blush:

Good one!

[furryfreakferret]

:scared: All right. offca and I are in the same boat. Or perhaps in this case, it's a yellow submarine. I'm admitly not a fan of the Beatles. But this is getting a little freaky.

Do they have magical capability without the use of their wands? What about house elves? Every other institution seems to have them. Are there house elves at St. Mungos? Did the Longbottoms have a house elf? :agree: You can do minor spells without the use of a wand. Jo said so in some interveiw or other. (It'll be on mugglenet, if anyone's interested in looking.) And... yeah. I'll bet Mungo's DOES have house-elves. Excpet, no one knows about them because that's the mark of a good house-elf: that you don't know they're there. And the Longbottoms (it seems) are an old enough and respectable enough family to have a house-elf themselves, though I doubt that it would still be looking after Frank and Alice.

Though, Doc, I wouldn't be surprised if Algie had actually gone back in time to Assyria to retrieve the plant. But I too wonder about his motives. It seems a waste of good time travel to only fetch an ugly little plant. Unless there's something about it we don't know.... And it would explain why they're so rare. I've toyed with the idea of Algie doing just this and then with the idea of him being an Unspeakable. But then, I also played with the thought of him being in leauge with Dung and Willy Widdershins.

By the way, I was skimming through PS/SS earlier today and came across this scene. Does it remind you of any other?

(Neville hops through the portrait hole, having been placed under the Leg-Locker Curse by Draco.)
"There's no need to tell me I'm not brave enough to be in Gryffindor, Malfoy's already done that," Neville choked out.
Harry felt in the pocket of his robes and pulled out a Chocolate Frog, the very last one from the box Hermione had given him for Christmas. He gave it to Neville, who looked as though he might cry.
"You're worth twelve of Malfoy," Harry said. "The Sorting Hat chose you for Gryffindor, didn't it? And where's Malfoy? In stinking Slytherin."
Neville's lips twitched in a weak smile as he unwrapped the frog.
"Thanks, Harry... I think I'll go to bed.... D'you want the card, you collect them, don't you?"

Here, Neville, I feel bad for you, have some candy. And notice it was shortly after Christmas? And when we first had any notice of Neville's history, after the showing of the Cruciatus Curse in GoF, Harry discovers Neville next in his bed, his eyes red like he'd been crying. Oh yes, it all fits very nicely. He even said the same thing after being given the candy! Think perhaps, going along with whiz's theme of "hiding in plain sight", this is the answer to WHY Alice gives him the wrappers. Is to say he's better than he's been made to think? Or a warning against Malfoy (of course, she wouldn't know about this scene)? But, our theories are more fun. :D

[Dr Hesper]

You can do minor spells without the use of a wand. Jo said so in some interveiw or other. (It'll be on mugglenet, if anyone's interested in looking.) And... yeah. I'll bet Mungo's DOES have house-elves. Excpet, no one knows about them because that's the mark of a good house-elf: that you don't know they're there. And the Longbottoms (it seems) are an old enough and respectable enough family to have a house-elf themselves, though I doubt that it would still be looking after Frank and Alice.Would the "accio" summoning spell be minor enough to be cast without a wand? I dont know. The house elf would probably now be taking care of Gram and Algie? It would likely stay home wouldnt it. Still, if it had a bit of a rebellious (Dobby-like) streak in it..... :evil:

Though, Doc, I wouldn't be surprised if Algie had actually gone back in time to Assyria to retrieve the plant. But I too wonder about his motives. It seems a waste of good time travel to only fetch an ugly little plant. Unless there's something about it we don't know.... And it would explain why they're so rare. I've toyed with the idea of Algie doing just this and then with the idea of him being an Unspeakable. But then, I also played with the thought of him being in leauge with Dung and Willy Widdershins.See thats the problem. I just dont know what to make of Algie yet. Other than sharing my grandfather's name, I dont know much about him. Assuming for a moment that he's one of the good guys (and that may be a big assumption), then his actions might be related to Alice and Frank's present state. Is the Mimbulus Mimbletonia rare, or exctinct? If it is extinct, and if it has properties which might help the Longbottoms, I can see him wanting to travel back to ancient Assyria to get the plant. Another thing related to this thread.....the plant sprayed a sticky, gooey resin on Harry, Luna and Neville on the train. Resin is a sticky, gummy substance that can be used to stick broken things back together. What items do we know of have been broken? Ron's wand. Harry's mirror. The Crystal Orb of Prophesy? Anything else?

Alice is giving Neville gum wrappers and Algie gave Neville a plant that sprays a gum-like resin. Coincidence? :huh:

By the way, I was skimming through PS/SS earlier today and came across this scene. Does it remind you of any other?
Here, Neville, I feel bad for you, have some candy. And notice it was shortly after Christmas? And when we first had any notice of Neville's history, after the showing of the Cruciatus Curse in GoF, Harry discovers Neville next in his bed, his eyes red like he'd been crying. Oh yes, it all fits very nicely. He even said the same thing after being given the candy! Think perhaps, going along with whiz's theme of "hiding in plain sight", this is the answer to WHY Alice gives him the wrappers. Is to say he's better than he's been made to think? Or a warning against Malfoy (of course, she wouldn't know about this scene)? But, our theories are more fun. :DI'm sorry. I dont know what to make of this yet. The only other thing this reminds me of is a thread where we are discussing Peter Pettigrew's possibly being sorted into Griffindor. The Chocolate frog reminds me of Trevor (which has confounded me from the beginning). Why was he allowed to bring that frog to Hogwarts in the first place. Possibly he had special permission?

:)

[furryfreakferret]

Hm. Well, I doubt he really needed special permission. Ron had Scabbers and neither rats or Anamagus wizards thought to be long dead are on the list of acceptable pets. But... I didn't think of the frog being Trevor. Interesting. Afraid I don't have many thoughts on it at present though.

Hm... broken things which could be fixed by Stinksap.... Well, there's Harry's broken heart, Neville's broken spirit, Voldemort's broken in so many places I can't think where to begin, the Weasley's broken family, the broken Playstation Dudley threw out the window.... Oh! Neville's broken wand, Harry's broken Nimbus.... The Malfoys broken credibility.... The caved in tunnel behind that mirror on the fourth floor.... Have we stumbled upon a new motif? But, somehow, I can't see it being that sticky. If Mimbulus mimbletonia is extinct, it'll make it hard to breed. Did Neville ever mention Professor Sprout's answer?

I don't know, honestly, how minor a spell must be to count as "minor." You'd have to ask J. K. Rowling. I tried going through some of those interviews, but there's only so much you can read in a night, and I don't remember even from what year it would have been. But I'm almost positive she said... at some point....

Anyway, I'm off to go being chapter 9 of my fanfic. Farewell for tonight, all!

[whizbang121]

:scared: All right. offca and I are in the same boat. Or perhaps in this case, it's a yellow submarine. I'm admitly not a fan of the Beatles. But this is getting a little freaky. It's getting freakier. I've been looking for Magical Mystery Tour info. A psychedelic bus tour, (only one level. :rolleyes: )through England. No gum yet, but the Beatles dressed as wizards in a classroom full of laboratory equipment examining maps. Paul seems to be telling Ringo a secret. John feeds spaghetti to a fat lady. Ringo has problems with his aunt. Paul's hair sticks up like James' / Harry's. (see attachment. With glasses, it could be James.)

I've put the video on hold at the library. Hope to pick it up tomorrow.
The Beatles loved to plant images and clues in any variety of ways, to promote hoaxes or let us see into their imaginations. I suspect that JKR's message is that she's using the same methods. :huh: Anyway, I'm trying to get a first post together for a new thread on this topic.
It seems a waste of good time travel to only fetch an ugly little plant. Unless there's something about it we don't know.... And it would explain why they're so rare. The thing is, mimbulus mimbletonia was also a gryffindor password. And the plant responds to Neville, almost like a pet.

By the way, I was skimming through PS/SS earlier today and came across this scene. Does it remind you of any other?

Here, Neville, I feel bad for you, have some candy. And notice it was shortly after Christmas? And when we first had any notice of Neville's history, after the showing of the Cruciatus Curse in GoF, Harry discovers Neville next in his bed, his eyes red like he'd been crying. Oh yes, it all fits very nicely. He even said the same thing after being given the candy! Think perhaps, going along with whiz's theme of "hiding in plain sight", this is the answer to WHY Alice gives him the wrappers. Is to say he's better than he's been made to think? Or a warning against Malfoy (of course, she wouldn't know about this scene)? But, our theories are more fun. :D
FFF, take this one step further. Harry gives Neville the candy to comfort him and ....... Neville gives the card back to Harry. "You collect them, don't you?"

Does Neville give the gum to Alice after all? And does she save the wrappers to give back to Neville because he collects them, or she thinks he does, or should? Is this whole scene a faint retelling?

[grrliz]

It's getting freakier. I've been looking for Magical Mystery Tour info. But don't stop at Magical Mystery Tour! It may be the most psychedelic and weird of the films, but let's hope the "clues" are scattered throughout their other films (cause we all know the Beatles planned out their films from the beginning the way JKR planned out the HP series ;)).

Isn't there a scene in A Hard Day's Night where George is giving an interview and the reporter says to him "What do you call that haircut?" And George says "Arthur." Arthur, eh? Arthur... Weasley, perhaps?

[whizbang121]

Exactly. Go back sa page and see the stuff about Help!, Mal Evans and his wife, Lily!

[Dedalus Diggle]

FFF, take this one step further. Harry gives Neville the candy to comfort him and ....... Neville gives the card back to Harry. "You collect them, don't you?"

Does Neville give the gum to Alice after all? And does she save the wrappers to give back to Neville because he collects them, or she thinks he does, or should? Is this whole scene a faint retelling?
Ah, this suggests to me another possibility, which explains the lack of bluebell bubbles filling the ward. Perhaps Neville chews the gum and the wrappers get dropped on the floor during the visits. As he's leaving, Alice grab the wrappers from the floor and mumbles, as well as she can, "Take your trash, you slovenly lout. As poor as it is, this is our home!"

[whizbang121]

:rotfl: Typical mother. Guess the house elves in St Mungo's don't like to sweep up gum wrappers.

[Dr Hesper]

Hm... broken things which could be fixed by Stinksap.... Well, there's Harry's broken heart, Neville's broken spirit, Voldemort's broken in so many places I can't think where to begin, the Weasley's broken family, the broken Playstation Dudley threw out the window.... Oh! Neville's broken wand, Harry's broken Nimbus.... The Malfoys broken credibility.... The caved in tunnel behind that mirror on the fourth floor.... Have we stumbled upon a new motif? But, somehow, I can't see it being that sticky. If Mimbulus mimbletonia is extinct, it'll make it hard to breed. Did Neville ever mention Professor Sprout's answer?I'm not sure what answer you are referring to. Sorry. I was thinking (more like wondering) if the resin from the plant could be used as an adhesive. Algie probably wouldnt have gone to a lot of trouble to provide a way for Harry to repair his broken mirror. But what if he wanted to repair the orb that contained the prophesy? Also, if this plant could do this, why give it to Neville? Why not raise something so important yourself so that you could ensure that it doesnt get harmed?

Or....

If the resin has nothing to do with adhesives, what if the resin could prevent people from being harmed by spells such as those that were used against the Longbottoms. That plant sprayed Neville, Harry and Luna Lovegood. Not sure but I think it also sprayed Ginny. JKR made a point to say that the resin got into Hary's mouth, so we know he got a good dose of it.

I think Neville is going to play a large role in the remaining books. Could Algie have given it to Neville knowing that he would show it to his friends and get the stuff all over them?

As for the password...I suspect this was done merely to reinforce the fact that Neville has the Mimbulus Mimbletonia plant. JKR probably didnt want us to forget it. Bringing in such a rare plant might be of interest to whoever sets the passwords and the may have decided to use it because of the novelty of the item.

Any thoughts on any of this? :)

[FirefightingMuggle]

Mimbulus Mimbletonia has an amazing defense mechanism, Stinksap. Harry, Neville, Luna, and Ginny all got sprayed with it. Harry, Neville, Luna, and Ginny were all present at the Department of Mysteries. All four were also DA members.
Mimbulus Mimbletonia, defense, DA, Department of Mysteries...they are all tied together by Luna, Harry, Neville, and Ginny....Ron and Hermione weren't there when the stinksap got released. But Ron and Hermione were there to see the gum wrapper scene with Neville and his parents. Harry and Ginny were there too....
And Neville, Harry, Ron, Ginny, Luna, and Hermione all went to the department of Mysteries..... All were DA members....
And Harry, Ron, Ginny, and Neville had parents that were/are members of the OotP....
And the Lovegoods live near the Burrow somewhere....

How do all these tie together....stinksap? Stinksap, the tie that sticks everything together, just like gum....

somedays, I don't even make sense to myself...i suppose I'm just writing to see if anyone else can come up with anything that could tie Stinksap, the double trio, and gum together.... As you can see, I'm having problems doing it.

[Dr Hesper]

Mimbulus Mimbletonia has an amazing defense mechanism, Stinksap. Harry, Neville, Luna, and Ginny all got sprayed with it. Harry, Neville, Luna, and Ginny were all present at the Department of Mysteries. All four were also DA members.
Mimbulus Mimbletonia, defense, DA, Department of Mysteries...they are all tied together by Luna, Harry, Neville, and Ginny....Ron and Hermione weren't there when the stinksap got released. But Ron and Hermione were there to see the gum wrapper scene with Neville and his parents. Harry and Ginny were there too....
And Neville, Harry, Ron, Ginny, Luna, and Hermione all went to the department of Mysteries..... All were DA members....
And Harry, Ron, Ginny, and Neville had parents that were/are members of the OotP....
And the Lovegoods live near the Burrow somewhere....

How do all these tie together....stinksap? Stinksap, the tie that sticks everything together, just like gum....

somedays, I don't even make sense to myself...i suppose I'm just writing to see if anyone else can come up with anything that could tie Stinksap, the double trio, and gum together.... As you can see, I'm having problems doing it.Also there's Neville's toad which (Im told) has a remarkable defense mechanism similiar to the Mimbulus Mimbletonia. (Some) toads secrete a type of oil, or slime or gunk or whatever when threatened. Is it coincidence that Neville possesses 2 things that have similiar defense mechanisms? :eyebrows:

I'm curious as to what properties the stinksap may have. We might do well to keep an eye on our friends Harry, Neville, Luna, and Ginny. :)

[VickySue]

I don't think the lack of bluebell bubbles in the Longbottom's hospital ward to be an indication that Alice and Frank are not chewing the gum. Gum can be chewed without blowing bubbles. Also the Longbottoms may have forgotten how to blow bubbles along with everything else.

[Unforgivable]

I don't see how beatles has something to do with Neville's parents. I think it might have significant's but then again it could be just he loves his mom and dad that much to keep whatever they give him. *stars playing with his thumbs waiting for the 6th book*

[GodricHollow]

Didn't Luna protect herself with the Quibbler?

[Aquaria]

@ Silver Ink Pot:

Viel means "a lot" in german.

Did anyone notice:
On the official website, when you load it, the background is already there before all the portkeys fly in.
I just noticed, there are also two pieces of silver gum wrapping that appear on the very bottom of the page. Could they mean anything?
All the other gum wrappers are stationary.

[Arithmancy]

Did anyone notice:
On the official website, when you load it, the background is already there before all the portkeys fly in.
I just noticed, there are also two pieces of silver gum wrapping that appear on the very bottom of the page. Could they mean anything?
All the other gum wrappers are stationary.
Yup, we did. There are actually three gum wrappers and a piece of paper that behave this way. [shameless self-promotion] I made a screenshot with them outlined, it is attached to the post on page 5. Here is the link:Link. (http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=1160432&postcount=129) [/self-promotion] IMO very suspicious.
As for the password...I suspect this was done merely to reinforce the fact that Neville has the Mimbulus Mimbletonia plant. JKR probably didnt want us to forget it. Bringing in such a rare plant might be of interest to whoever sets the passwords and the may have decided to use it because of the novelty of the item. All that talk about defense mechanisms gave me this thought. A password is a form of protection, Mimbulus Mimbletonia may turn out to be a device of protection for Neville, and it definitely has defensive mechanisms of its own.

What about gum? Passwords to Dumbledore's office are always names of some candy. Dumbledore is partial to being on chocolate frogs cards.

Parallels or coincidences?
*goes to research the list of passwords to Gryffindor Tower through all 5 books*

Edit:
caput draconis (SS7)
pig snout (SS9)

wattlebird (CS5)

fortuna major (PA5)
oddsbodkins (Sir Cadogan thought this one up) (PA12)
scurvy cur (Sir Cadogan thought this one up too) (PA11)
flibbertigibbet (PA15)

balderdash (GF12, GF14)
fairy lights (GF22)
banana fritters (GF25)

Mimbulus mimbletonia (OP11)


pine fresh (GF23,25) (Prefect's bathroom on the fifth floor)
pure-blood (Slytherin common room) (CS12)

sherbet lemon (Dumbledore's office) (CS11 - UK edition, GF29)
lemon drop (Dumbledore's office) (CS11 - US edition)
cockroach cluster (Dumbledore's office) (GF29)
Fizzing Whizbee (Dumbledore's office) (OP22)

Hm... Balderdash... :huh:

[Dr Hesper]

I don't think the lack of bluebell bubbles in the Longbottom's hospital ward to be an indication that Alice and Frank are not chewing the gum. Gum can be chewed without blowing bubbles. Also the Longbottoms may have forgotten how to blow bubbles along with everything else.This is true enough. Bluebell bubbles might be a red herring in this case. In fact, even if the Longbottoms were consuming the gum, I'm not sure they'd be in control of their faculties to actually blow bubbles these days. :)

I don't see how beatles has something to do with Neville's parents. I think it might have significant's but then again it could be just he loves his mom and dad that much to keep whatever they give him.I agree. And if the Beatles have anything to do with this story (other than JKR liked them), no one has bothered to explain their theory. I think its a case of folks just closing their eyes and tossing darts hoping to hit something. :p

Didn't Luna protect herself with the Quibbler?Hmm...I think you may be right. Luna's magazine took the brunt of the spray. (I wonder if any got on her hands?). Ginny's hair was covered. Hary got a face full and Neville's face and torso were covered. His eyes may have been drenched as well. I wonder if this affected them in any special manner? I'm especially curious as to JKR's mention of how it covered Neville's eyes. Notice also that the sap was dark green. I won't go into details about the odor, :rotfl: but green appears to be of some significance in these books.

All that talk about defense mechanisms gave me this thought. A password is a form of protection, Mimbulus Mimbletonia may turn out to be a device of protection for Neville, and it definitely has defensive mechanisms of its own.Yep. Maybe the sap penetrated the skin and will help in some manner at some point.

What about gum? Passwords to Dumbledore's office are always names of some candy. Dumbledore is partial to being on chocolate frogs cards.

Parallels or coincidences?
*goes to research the list of passwords to Gryffindor Tower through all 5 books*Wow! Have there been that many passwords? I wonder if the various passwords themselves are a clue? We know Neville had trouble with some of them.

[whizbang121]

I agree. And if the Beatles have anything to do with this story (other than JKR liked them), no one has bothered to explain their theory. :lol: That's all you know. ;) It's just that we were polite and moved the discussion to its own thread. :rolleyes:
I think its a case of folks just closing their eyes and tossing darts hoping to hit something. :p
:rotfl: That's all anyone does around here! It's all we can do, you know? :agree:

The thing is, for some of us who've been here awhile, a new idea or path of enquiry is very exciting. We like to research and share our findings, as we did on the original Neville, Voldemort and a lot of Gum thread, rather than endless restate sometimes baseless opinions. It's a different approach. If anyone would like to join us, the Beatles Marauder discussion is going on here. Sgt Potter's Mad Marauders Band. (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?p=1176409#post1176409)

Warning: We brake for anagrams. ;)

[furryfreakferret]

This is true enough. Bluebell bubbles might be a red herring in this case. In fact, even if the Longbottoms were consuming the gum, I'm not sure they'd be in control of their faculties to actually blow bubbles these days. You know, this is a fair point. I can't even blow bubblegum bubbles and I'm not insane... okay, i'm less insane than they are, though. But then, there's always those lights that looks like giant soap bubbles.

I'm especially curious as to JKR's mention of how it covered Neville's eyes. Notice also that the sap was dark green. I won't go into details about the odor, but green appears to be of some significance in these books. Excellent catch, my friend! Didn't Jo once say that there was something significant about Harry's eyes being green? And we theorized (I believe in the "Importance of Mirrors and Reflections" thread) that perhaps Harry's eyes absorbed the light of the Killing Curse since they are both emerald green. (Scientific, isn't it?) What significance can we place on this small bit of information?

I was thinking about the passwords. The defense the passwords provide aren't foolproof. Crookshanks stole the passwords Neville had written down and Sirius was able to use them to break into Gryffindor Tower. Harry and Ron managed to get into the Slytherin common room under the influence of Polyjuice Potion. Harry was able to get into the Prefect's bathroom although he wasn't and isn't a prefect. What other places do you think could be gaurded by passwords? Their imperfections could prove both a curse and a blessing. Grimmauld Place didn't seem to be password protected (although it may be the only thing lacking), but if it is, could a Death Eater find his or her way in? And then there's Voldemort's hideout (which, may be enterable only with a password, we don't know). Could an Order member in disguise find their way inside? You know, really, it's funny. There are so many rooms in Hogwarts that are passable only with a password, and yet, six obviously unauthorized teens could walk unhindered into the Department of Mysteries. Time for some Ministry reform, I think.

Warning: We brake for anagrams. :lol: Wow! We've gotta get someone to make a bumpersticker like that!

[silver ink pot]

Maybe Alice swallows her gum because she is insane? Maybe Frank is the one who chews the gum? We haven't seen Frank yet.

Dr. Hesper: Sorry to disagree (actually I am glad to disagree) but Whiz and I are not just throwing darts blindfolded.

We are doing an age-old thing called following a trail of clues. Following gum wrappers. Following clues from "Help" by the Beatles. Following literary illusions.

Alice may be calling for Help! I've been reading the Beatles Anthology all day long, and John and Paul say over and over that they were both obsessed by Alice in Wonderland since they were children. Alice Longbottom is named "Alice" for a reason! In HELP!, Paul shrinking was just like Alice in Wonderland, when she "gets small" and then "gets large." It is not rocket science to understand the connection. :p
One can also make the case that Frank Longbottom is a play on the name "Frank L. Baum" who wrote "The Wizard of Oz" books.

Take a look at Wizard of Oz sometime and read about the glasses everyone has to wear in the Emerald City so everyone will see "green." It is not in the movie, but only in the book. The glasses everyone wears are huge, like Madame Trelawney's, and the wizard thinks they are extremely important.

All these things are in JKR's mind, I'm sure of it. She has read everything!

[Tane]

I don't think the lack of bluebell bubbles in the Longbottom's hospital ward to be an indication that Alice and Frank are not chewing the gum. Gum can be chewed without blowing bubbles.That is true and perhaps they chew the gum to ease there nerves or are given the gum to prevent with drawl symptoms to what ever drug they might be given periodically, the gum could be given to them as the drug begins to wear off until they can administer the next batch.

Then again they could be chewing the gum because they are afraid and it is there to calm there nerves down, relax them from either there past experiences or there current ones.

On another note it could be a message being sent by them to Neville but it might not be an anagram, Neville has the gum wrappers on his wall at Hogwarts what if there is another sentence or phrase created from them being arranged on his wall when he gets the last wrapper or perhaps they are aligned slightly off so that another sentence can be read downwards or something.

Then again I doubt JKR would make a puzzle that difficult to solve but I can not find a good anagram.

No I think I might just stick to it being a relaxing aid, actually maybe it is a sign that Frank and Alice are coming off drugs and getting better, why should it be a bad sign, why not a good one.

[grrliz]

I haven't been able to find it specifically, but in CoS there is a mention of the brand of gum that Neville's mother gives him the wrappers from. Has anyone else seen this? I'm wondering how it might affect this gum wrapper theory, especially since JKR has said something from CoS shows up in HBP (let's hope it's something more significant than the gum wrappers, but it could be interesting).

(We have this book called "The Definitive Harry Potter Guide Book: Book 2 -- The Chamber of Secrets" and it's basically a mini encyclopedia of all the characters, creatures, and artifacts mentioned in the book. Anyway, I was flipping trhough it and found mention of the gum, but overlooked it while reading CoS again. So it must be there, I just can't find where.)

[GodricHollow]

No, it's going to be something discreet, no matter how hard we try we probably won't get it until the book is out.

[HarryPotter]

@ Grrliz: The bubble gum's brand is "'Drooble's Best Blowing Gum", and it makes the anagram "Gold Bribe Below St. Mungo's"

[Dedalus Diggle]

@ Grrliz: The bubble gum's brand is "'Drooble's Best Blowing Gum", and it makes the anagram "Gold Bribe Below St. Mungo's"
Or "Goblins were sold tomb bug" - gotta defend my pet theory :)

[Xtina Tares]

HarryPotter's theory sounds the most likely. With the gold and Fudge hating the Goblins.

[Dr Hesper]

That's all you know. It's just that we were polite and moved the discussion to its own thread.
That's all anyone does around here! It's all we can do, you know?

The thing is, for some of us who've been here awhile, a new idea or path of enquiry is very exciting. We like to research and share our findings, as we did on the original Neville, Voldemort and a lot of Gum thread, rather than endless restate sometimes baseless opinions. It's a different approach. If anyone would like to join us, the Beatles Marauder discussion is going on here. Sgt Potter's Mad Marauders Band.
Having read perhaps 75% of the topic now, I’d say that is the best idea you’ve had. You’ve obviously grown bored with this discussion and have little use for some of the ideas some of us are talking about…even if they had been mentioned before. You've complained when we begin discussing a previously discussed topic and said yourself it was time to move on. I agree. I like the new thread title too! It’s an all-inclusive sort of title that will allow your discussions to spiral off into any direction you wish. And if I can logically find any way to work the Beatles into the Harry Potter Universe without it becoming a useless chat room (as this one was in danger of doing) , I may join you. Have fun. :)

You know, this is a fair point. I can't even blow bubblegum bubbles and I'm not insane... okay, i'm less insane than they are, though. But then, there's always those lights that looks like giant soap bubbles. Jo sure has a thing about bubbles doesn’t she? :)

Excellent catch, my friend! Didn't Jo once say that there was something significant about Harry's eyes being green? And we theorized (I believe in the "Importance of Mirrors and Reflections" thread) that perhaps Harry's eyes absorbed the light of the Killing Curse since they are both emerald green. (Scientific, isn't it?) What significance can we place on this small bit of information?It is a bit sci-fi. Lol! But that’s ok because there may be something to it. Wasn’t Lily’s eyes green though? I wonder if the curse that affected Neville’s parents has anything to do with the victim’s eyes? There may be a point where the sap in Neville’s eyes may protect him in some manner. I think some got in Hary’s mouth too didn’t it? :)

I was thinking about the passwords. The defense the passwords provide aren't foolproof. Crookshanks stole the passwords Neville had written down and Sirius was able to use them to break into Gryffindor Tower. Harry and Ron managed to get into the Slytherin common room under the influence of Polyjuice Potion. Harry was able to get into the Prefect's bathroom although he wasn't and isn't a prefect. What other places do you think could be gaurded by passwords? Hmm…I hadn’t thought of that! I wonder if this was just a mistake by JKR? Maybe she forgot a password would be needed to get into the Slytherin common room? OTOH, she’s pretty sharp and there may be a good reason for their success. Gee…I wish someone could ask her about that. Lol!

Their imperfections could prove both a curse and a blessing. Grimmauld Place didn't seem to be password protected (although it may be the only thing lacking), but if it is, could a Death Eater find his or her way in? And then there's Voldemort's hideout (which, may be enterable only with a password, we don't know). Could an Order member in disguise find their way inside? You know, really, it's funny. There are so many rooms in Hogwarts that are passable only with a password, and yet, six obviously unauthorized teens could walk unhindered into the Department of Mysteries. Time for some Ministry reform, I think. Yeah, I think that’s a mistake on JKR’s part. Leave it to the fans to find weaknesses in her setup. Lol! You know, I was rereading the description of the Fidelius Charm last night and I think it is sheer genius! It was described several pages back, but for those who may not know where to look, I’ll post the theory about it again.

Basically there is a secret that needs to be kept and a person to keep the secret---a secret keeper. Once the charm is in place, whatever the person wants to keep secret is not or is no longer known to anyone…even if they had thought of it previously. This is a big key part of the charm! Professor explained in Book 3 that even if the Potters were right in their house, since they were the secret being kept, they could not be seen. The same holds true for the Headquarters at Grimmauld Place.

Of course the secret keeper does know the secret and can tell whoever he or she wants. Once the secret is divulged, it is known to whoever he tells. This is why Harry couldn’t see Grimmauld place until a note was handed to him that had been written by the Secret Keeper (Dumbledore). Once Harry read the note, he could see the house. Moody could have told him the house was there but Harry wouldn’t have seen it unless he read that note or Dumbledore told him about the house.

Whew! Ok, I was thinking…if the Potters were the objects of the Fidelius Charm and they were completely unknown to anyone but the Secret Keeper (Pettigrew), this means 2 things:

1. No one but Pettigrew even knew of the existence of the Potters…not even Voldemort…except Sirius and Pettigrew. If either would have kept their mouths shut, no one would have known about them. In fact, the existence of the Potters should never have even occurred to Voldemort…and Sirius should have known this! Why he chose to tell Pettigrew about the secret is beyond me but it does lead to some interesting questions.

2. The object of a Fidelius Charm is, for all practical purposes, invisible…unknown…non-existant to all but the secret keeper. (Ok, they exist, but no one would think to look for them unless the Secret Keeper reveals the secret). This means what? It means that someone with a Fidelius charm cast on them could come and go in St. Mungos, do whatever they wanted to do even under the very noses of people there, and no one would know! He could get away Scott free!

Sort of brings a new dimension to this dilemma eh?

;)

Dr. Hesper: Sorry to disagree (actually I am glad to disagree) but Whiz and I are not just throwing darts blindfolded.Why are you glad to disagree?

We are doing an age-old thing called following a trail of clues. Following gum wrappers. Following clues from "Help" by the Beatles. Following literary illusions.

Alice may be calling for Help! I've been reading the Beatles Anthology all day long, and John and Paul say over and over that they were both obsessed by Alice in Wonderland since they were children. Alice Longbottom is named "Alice" for a reason! In HELP!, Paul shrinking was just like Alice in Wonderland, when she "gets small" and then "gets large." It is not rocket science to understand the connection.
One can also make the case that Frank Longbottom is a play on the name "Frank L. Baum" who wrote "The Wizard of Oz" books.

Take a look at Wizard of Oz sometime and read about the glasses everyone has to wear in the Emerald City so everyone will see "green." It is not in the movie, but only in the book. The glasses everyone wears are huge, like Madame Trelawney's, and the wizard thinks they are extremely important.

All these things are in JKR's mind, I'm sure of it. She has read everything!

All that is cool. I see what you are trying to say with this theory and appreciate you explaining it. However some have questioned how that theory could be connected to this thread and all they got was either stone cold silence or a smart alecky reply indicating that we should go back and read the thread again. That’s pure arrogance. Its a matter of politeness and civility. Newbies should not be made to feel timid and afraid to ask questions in here. And some are afraid they are going to receive rude remarks to their questions. I got it when I first arrived and now other new members are getting too. It wouldn’t have taken a couple of minutes to welcome the new person, make them feel at home and let them in on the discussion. Instead, the door is sometimes slammed in our face and I don’t appreciate it. I'm sure they dont either. There is a feeling that this forum is run by a little clique and if you dont belong, then you dont count. Not everyone has been rude, but a couple can ruin the whole thing.

Its ok to disagree and in your particular theory, I do. I personally don’t see any connection with Alice Longbottom and Alice in Wonderland other than the name. Or Frank Longbottom and Frank L. Baum. One can make the equally ridiculous claim that since she used that name 'Longbottom' (because of ‘Longbottom Leaf” in Tolkien’s LotR) we can assume that Frank Longbottom is a pothead now…because that claim has been made about Gandalf. Claiming that Alice is crying out for help and connecting it to the movie 'Help' is interesting and cute. However, tons of characters in films and novels cry out for help all the time, but this doesnt mean the author is borrowing from Alice in Wonderland or the Beatles. IMO, its a little thing called 'coincidence'. Thats all. No offense intended, but is there a chance that the notion that you spent all day reading the 'Help' anthology has skewed your analysis? :huh:

There is no doubt that JKR read those books and may have been “inspired” to borrow a few things from those stories. But the evidence is shaky at best. We have no reason to believe that any of this has anything to do with JKR’s story because Alice in Wonderland, Lord of the Rings and The Wizard of Oz are not canon to the Harry Potter realm. I don’t think JKR ever intended fans to be forced to read those other unrelated books to be able to solve the mysteries of her book. In other words, I don’t believe that we will ever find the “answers” in Alice in Wonderland or Lord of the Rings. Both great books and interesting ideas…but I’m afraid that dawg wont hunt. :) I believe that we should stick with her books because it would be unfair for her as an author to create a mystery where we are forced to read other novels to solve this mystery. And I believe that JKR plays fairly. Or "Goblins were sold tomb bug" - gotta defend my pet theoryThat’s a really groovy theory too! I haven’t given up on it. Can you provide a link to the theory for those who might not have read it? :)

[Gwenog Jones]

1. No one but Pettigrew even knew of the existence of the Potters…not even Voldemort…except Sirius and Pettigrew. If either would have kept their mouths shut, no one would have known about them. In fact, the existence of the Potters should never have even occurred to Voldemort…and Sirius should have known this! Why he chose to tell Pettigrew about the secret is beyond me but it does lead to some interesting questions.

Ok, please correct me if im wrong, but I'm pretty sure that only Pettigrew was the secret keeper. Sirius convinced James and Lily to switch to Peter at the last second. So, I thought that only Peter knew, or could tell where the Potters were. I could have misinterpreted this, so let me know if I'm wrong :)

[Dr Hesper]

Ok, please correct me if im wrong, but I'm pretty sure that only Pettigrew was the secret keeper. Sirius convinced James and Lily to switch to Peter at the last second. So, I thought that only Peter knew, or could tell where the Potters were. I could have misinterpreted this, so let me know if I'm wrong :)You're right. In Ch. 10 (PA) Professor Flitwick explains how the Fidelius Charm works and Madam Rosmerta asks is Black was the Potters’ secret keeper. Prof. McGonagal replies “Naturally”. She then goes on to explain that James Potter told Dumbledore that Black would rather die than tell where they (the Potters) were, and that Black was planning to go into hiding himself. (Perhaps on some South Pacific tropical Isle? ) ;) Interestingly she mentions that Dumbledore was worried and offered to be the secret keeper himself because he was sure than someone close to the Potters was a spy.

We then learn in Ch 19 that the Potters only made Peter the secret keeper at Sirius’ suggestion. He claims that he felt it was the perfect plan…a bluff.

However, I have some questions about this plan. Flitwick tell us in Ch 10 that as long as the secret keeper refused to speak, Voldemort could search the village where Lily and James were staying for years and never find them, not even if he had pressed his nose against their sitting room window! If this were true and if Black had chosen a good place to hide as was suggested how would Voldemort have ever found out that Black was the secret keeper? Dumbledore obviously felt that it was a practically foolproof plan. If Black had chosen a good place to hide as was suggested, why ask the Potters to let Pettigrew be the secret keeper?

True, hindsight being what it is, we can poke holes in his reasoning, however why choose Pettigrew? Of all the weasely spineless beings to give that secret to, they chose Pettigrew? All of the Marauders had spent a lot of time with this guy. They all knew his character as has Black indicates when he tells Pettigrew (in Ch 19) “I, a spy for Voldemort? When did I ever sneak around people who were stronger, more powerful than myself? But you Peter---I’ll never understand why I didn’t see you were a spy from the start. You always liked big friends who’d look after you, didn’t you? It used to be us...me and Remus…and James…”

And then later he says “Voldemort would be sure to come after me, would never dream they’d use a weak, talentless thing like you… telling Voldemort you could hand him the Potters.”It must have been the finest moment in your miserable life, telling voldemort you could hand him the Potters.”

Clearly, Black knew of Pettigrew’s character and yet he still convinced the Potters to use him, of all people, as their secret keeper. Why not choose Dumbledore instead. Yes, Voldemort may have figured they’d do that, but at least DD’s character and power have not been in question.

But that’s all for another thread I guess. My point about the charm always was that the recipient of the Fidelius charm would have a lot of leeway to come and go as they chose and no one would be the wiser. How about Ludo Bagman, who seems to have dropped out of site? He owed some rather large bills didn’t he? Could he and Malfoy have concocted a plan to have Bagman do some rather sinister things for him?

:)

[Gwenog Jones]

If this were true and if Black had chosen a good place to hide as was suggested how would Voldemort have ever found out that Black was the secret keeper? Dumbledore obviously felt that it was a practically foolproof plan. If Black had chosen a good place to hide as was suggested, why ask the Potters to let Pettigrew be the secret keeper?
That is a good point. I guess Sirius figured that Voldemort and his Death Eaters would search everywhere for him, so it was just safer to switch to Peter.

[whizbang121]

Yeah, I think that’s a mistake on JKR’s part. Leave it to the fans to find weaknesses in her setup. Lol! You know, I was rereading the description of the Fidelius Charm last night and I think it is sheer genius! It was described several pages back, but for those who may not know where to look, I’ll post the theory about it again.

Basically there is a secret that needs to be kept and a person to keep the secret---a secret keeper. Once the charm is in place, whatever the person wants to keep secret is not or is no longer known to anyone…even if they had thought of it previously. This is a big key part of the charm! Professor explained in Book 3 that even if the Potters were right in their house, since they were the secret being kept, they could not be seen. The same holds true for the Headquarters at Grimmauld Place.

Of course the secret keeper does know the secret and can tell whoever he or she wants. Once the secret is divulged, it is known to whoever he tells. This is why Harry couldn’t see Grimmauld place until a note was handed to him that had been written by the Secret Keeper (Dumbledore). Once Harry read the note, he could see the house. Moody could have told him the house was there but Harry wouldn’t have seen it unless he read that note or Dumbledore told him about the house.

Whew! Ok, I was thinking…if the Potters were the objects of the Fidelius Charm and they were completely unknown to anyone but the Secret Keeper (Pettigrew), this means 2 things:

1. No one but Pettigrew even knew of the existence of the Potters…not even Voldemort…except Sirius and Pettigrew. If either would have kept their mouths shut, no one would have known about them. In fact, the existence of the Potters should never have even occurred to Voldemort…and Sirius should have known this! Why he chose to tell Pettigrew about the secret is beyond me but it does lead to some interesting questions. The Potters weren't the object of the Fidelius, their location was.
2. The object of a Fidelius Charm is, for all practical purposes, invisible…unknown…non-existant to all but the secret keeper. (Ok, they exist, but no one would think to look for them unless the Secret Keeper reveals the secret). This means what? It means that someone with a Fidelius charm cast on them could come and go in St. Mungos, do whatever they wanted to do even under the very noses of people there, and no one would know! He could get away Scott free! An invisibility cloak or disillusionment charm would accomplish that much more easily. I could, of course, be wrong, but if it was that easy to hide someone completely, I suspect that Barty Crouch would had done something like that to his son, instead of having Jr spend 20+ years under an invisibility cloak.

Sort of brings a new dimension to this dilemma eh?

I don't see it. But suddenly, I wonder if house elves can see through invisibility cloaks. That is a different topic, though.

You're right. In Ch. 10 (PA) Professor Flitwick explains how the Fidelius Charm works and Madam Rosmerta asks is Black was the Potters’ secret keeper. Prof. McGonagal replies “Naturally”. She then goes on to explain that James Potter told Dumbledore that Black would rather die than tell where they (the Potters) were, and that Black was planning to go into hiding himself. (Perhaps on some South Pacific tropical Isle? ) ;) Interestingly she mentions that Dumbledore was worried and offered to be the secret keeper himself because he was sure than someone close to the Potters was a spy. You're forgetting the climate of confusion at this time. Black thought that the spy was Lupin. James must have thought so, too, because his name doesn't come up. Black believed that Voldemort would seek him out and might force him to betray his friends. But Peter's nature led Black to believe that Voldemort wouldn't bother with him. He was probably right, too.

What Sirius didn't count on was Peter going to the Dark Lord on his own and offering the information. When Black went to check on Peter in his hiding place and found him gone, he knew something was wrong and went straight to Godric's Hollow.

Peter was the secret keeper. Sirius thought he was the best choice because Voldemort would never expect the Potters to choose him. They just didn't think Peter would go and offer them up as he did.

However, I have some questions about this plan. Flitwick tell us in Ch 10 that as long as the secret keeper refused to speak, Voldemort could If this were true and if Black had chosen a good place to hide as was suggested how would Voldemort have ever found out that Black was the secret keeper? It wasn't a secret that James and Sirius trusted each other. Who would you have thought of? If I was Voldemort, Dumbledore and Sirius would have been my first two targets. Dumbledore obviously felt that it was a practically foolproof plan. I don't remember Dumbledore's opinion of the plan being expressed. He offered to do it himself, but he was in the same position as Sirius. And, again, remember the climate of distrust at this time. We've seen enough polyjuice imposters to realize that no one knew who to trust. At the end of GoF, Dumbledore warns about the Dark Lord's talent for sowing enmity and distrust.

But James and Sirius shared enough secrets that they could probably identify each other under the most extreme circumstances. Each knew he could trust the other. If Black had chosen a good place to hide as was suggested, why ask the Potters to let Pettigrew be the secret keeper? He only said he was going into hiding. That might not even mean a place. It could mean an alter ego, a fake id.
My point about the charm always was that the recipient of the Fidelius charm would have a lot of leeway to come and go as they chose and no one would be the wiser. Well we haven't seen an entire person hidden by a Fidelius Charm, so far. And again, if it was possible, why didn't Dumbledore just hide Harry with one? It's too inconsistent. How about Ludo Bagman, who seems to have dropped out of site? He owed some rather large bills didn’t he? Could he and Malfoy have concocted a plan to have Bagman do some rather sinister things for him?

:)Bagman and Wormtail are both suspiciously missing. It wouldn't surprise me to see Bagman working for Malfoy.

[Gwenog Jones]

Bagman and Wormtail are both suspiciously missing. It wouldn't surprise me to see Bagman working for Malfoy.

That would not surprise me either. I have thought that Bagman was involved with Death Eaters since the Quidditch World Cup, when he is worried before he even knew what had happened. That's for another thread though :)

[whizbang121]

Good point, Gwenog. In fact, lots of this is. But if it's connected to someone working for Malfoy getting into St Mungo's and somehow sabatoging the Longbottom's recovery, then we're probably okay. And we're back to gum and wrappers. Bagman does seem a bit immature, doesn't he? Wonder if he chews gum? I'm trying to remember if we ever see anyone chewing gum, or even buying it.

[Dr Hesper]

The Potters weren't the object of the Fidelius, their location was. Maybe but I really don’t think so. I think you might be mistaken for several reasons. Professor Flitwick says that “As long as the secret keeper refused to speak, You-Know-Who could search the village where Lily and James were staying for years and never find them, not even if he had his nose pressed against their sitting room window!”

The Harry Potter Lexicon has this to say about the Charm: "An immensely complex spell involving the magical concealment of a secret inside a single, living soul. The information is hidden inside the chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to find -- unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it. As long as the Secret-Keeper refused to speak, You-Know-Who could search the village where Lily and James were staying for years and never find them, not even if he had his nose pressed against their sitting room window!" It goes on to say “Some Charms can be extremely powerful. The Fidelius Charm, for example, can completely hide a person or a place in such a way that no one can find them unless they are given the location by a Secret Keeper.”

“New Clues to Harry Potter: Book 5” by Galadriel Waters has this to say: “So, as was explained by Flitwick in Book 3, even if the Potters were right in their house, since they were the secret being kept, they could not have been seen. Similarly even though the Order of the Phoenix does have its headquarters at Grimmauld Place, because it is under a Fidelius Charm, they and the house cannot be seen—even by other wizards who might be looking for them.” (Pg. 25)

All of this suggests to me that the Potters themselves were the object of the charm. And if that were not sufficient evidence, consider this. How dumb would it have been to place the charm on their house but not the Potters themselves? It defeats the purpose entirely if they leave the house. Pettigrew’s betrayal would have been unnecessary since all a Deatheater would have had to do would be hang around the village where the Potter’s house used to be and wait for one of them to leave, thus appearing. If the house was the object of the charm rather than the Potters themselves, we know from Grimmauld Place that the house cannot be seen and neither can the inhabitants while they are within the house. The Potters would be confined to that house.

An invisibility cloak or disillusionment charm would accomplish that much more easily. I could, of course, be wrong, but if it was that easy to hide someone completely, I suspect that Barty Crouch would had done something like that to his son, instead of having Jr spend 20+ years under an invisibility cloak. *Laughing* You’re talking to a 23 year veteran dungeonmaster who’s been quizzed a lot by gamers trying to find loopholes in invisibility spell issues over the years. So its a specialty of sorts. And there is reason to believe that JKR did “borrow” some things from RPGs. The invisibility spell or cloak is good, but has its drawbacks, the biggest of which is that it apparently doesn’t work against some individuals (like Dumbledore). They probably wouldn’t work against Voldemort or other more powerful wizards or magical defenses. The Fidelious charm is far harder to detect and thus would make a perfect tool for a thief or an assassin. There is no fear of being seen, heard, smelled or noticed in any manner whatsoever, which is why I suggested this possiblity.

I don't see it. But suddenly, I wonder if house elves can see through invisibility cloaks. That is a different topic, though.It is and I only mention the charm in the context that someone might be using it in St. Mungos where Neville’s parents are or how it might be used to fool Voldemort. I get the idea that Dumbledore can either see invisible objects or sense them in some manner because he seemed to know Harry was hiding under his cloak at Hagrids. I would think that if Dumbledore can “sense” invisible things (like Harry’s cloak), then Dobby might be able to as well. He has his own “special” brand of magic which seems vastly superior to wizards’.

You're forgetting the climate of confusion at this time. Black thought that the spy was Lupin. James must have thought so, too, because his name doesn't come up. Black believed that Voldemort would seek him out and might force him to betray his friends. But Peter's nature led Black to believe that Voldemort wouldn't bother with him. He was probably right, too. What Sirius didn't count on was Peter going to the Dark Lord on his own and offering the information. When Black went to check on Peter in his hiding place and found him gone, he knew something was wrong and went straight to Godric's Hollow.

Peter was the secret keeper. Sirius thought he was the best choice because Voldemort would never expect the Potters to choose him. They just didn't think Peter would go and offer them up as he did.I’m not forgetting that. I’ve read these books too and am well aware of the reason given for Black suggesting Pettigrew become the Secret Keeper. Yes, you have fairly accurately described the excuse given by Sirius, but I’m not completely sold on that tale. Everyone wants to make Sirius to be the hero, but Sirius let more slip than he may have meant in the Shrieking shack. He showed that he knew Pettigrew far more than most assume. I already mentioned that he knew Pettigrew liked to hang around the strongest, toughest, baddest guy he could find. This meant Voldemort at the time. Yet Sirius still convinced the Potters to use Pettigrew as Secret Keeper. Sirius knew Pettigrew’s character far better than any of us (who have only the one scene in the Pensieve to go on). Knowing this, Sirius was either a bad guy or he was stupid. Which was it?

It wasn't a secret that James and Sirius trusted each other. Who would you have thought of? If I was Voldemort, Dumbledore and Sirius would have been my first two targets.I would not have chosen either Sirius or Pettigrew. Dumbledore would be the obvious choice but still he should have been the secret keeper for a couple of reasons. First, he was far more powerful than anyone else…and has shown us he’s quite capable of handling Voldemort in combat. Second, the whole idea is that it was supposed to be a secret! Does anyone think Dumbledore would let the secret slip? Has he ever shown that he cannot be trusted with a secret? Do we know of anyone who could pry the information out of him? I doubt even Voldemort would risk trying that. In fact, I think the only reason he confronted Dumbledore in Book 5 was that he got caught in the wrong place when DD and the cavalry arrived. For all his boasting, I don’t believe Voldemort set out to fight DD at all and escaped at the first opportunity.

No, DD was the best option and Sirius knew it. James probably did too but took Sirius’ suggestion out of loyalty to his friend. I’ve never thought Sirius was the knight in shining armor everyone is making him out to be. It’s too simple a plot and he's shown he has a mean streak in him. Did he not send Snape down the tunnel toward the Shrieking shack where the transformed werewolf Lupin was hiding? He tried to claim it was a joke but thats a crock. A good guy wouldnt do something that would result in that sort of injury or death to another. Even James Potter, cocky as he was, went in to save Pettigrew.

I’m not certain, but it really looks weird and the evidence is beginning to pile up. We may not have the whole story of what happened in the days leading up to the Potters’ death. Knowing Pettigrew as he did, Sirius could have set up Potters by suggesting Pettigrew who, being so happy to be involved, jumped at the chance. Then, hearing of the plight of the Longbottoms and thinking Voldemort was about to bring his plan to fruition, squealed predictably on the Potters in the hopes that Voldemort would show favor upon him. Makes sense to me. After all, all we have to go on is Sirius story. Pettigrew probably never realized this part of Sirius’ plan and thought he’d pulled the wool over Sirius’ eyes.

I don't remember Dumbledore's opinion of the plan being expressed. He offered to do it himself, but he was in the same position as Sirius. But James and Sirius shared enough secrets that they could probably identify each other under the most extreme circumstances. Each knew he could trust the other.We don’t know what Dumbledore’s plan may have been, but we know that he was worried about letting Pettigrew be the secret keeper because we are told he was worried in Book 3. He was so worried that, knowing the dangers involved, he still offered to be the secret keeper himself. If he wasn’t worried about Potter’s choice for secret keeper, then what was he worried about? The weather? McGonagal, being a close associate to Dumbledore would have been the most likely person to know that DD was worried.

And if James and Sirius were in the habit of sharing secrets suggests that they have some trouble keeping them. Dumbledore may have realized this but didn’t want to suggest that one of James’ friends couldn’t be trusted to keep a secret.

He only said he was going into hiding. That might not even mean a place. It could mean an alter ego, a fake id.*Sigh* Yes…I know. :rolleyes:

Well we haven't seen an entire person hidden by a Fidelius Charm, so far. And again, if it was possible, why didn't Dumbledore just hide Harry with one? It's too inconsistent.Not at all. You aren’t supposed to see someone hidden by a Fidelius charm. And there is good reason to believe it is possible. There also may very well be a good reason why the charm wasn’t placed on Harry. What sort of life would a child have where no one could see him, hear him, feed him, change him, interact with him, teach him? Think about what you are suggesting. When you have a Fidelius charm placed upon you, you would be practically condemned into isolation. There are war veterans who have cracked up and gone insane after being in isolation for extended periods of time. Can you imagine the effects on a child after 10 years? Even James Potter had his wife with him and I doubt they planned to remain in that state for a decade or more. Plus Lily Potter’s sacrifice had achieved a more powerful defense that Voldemort could not penetrate anyway.

Bagman and Wormtail are both suspiciously missing. It wouldn't surprise me to see Bagman working for Malfoy.Me either. If he’s in debt, he might run to the wizard who represents money.

Good point, Gwenog. In fact, lots of this is. But if it's connected to someone working for Malfoy getting into St Mungo's and somehow sabatoging the Longbottom's recovery, then we're probably okay. And we're back to gum and wrappers. Bagman does seem a bit immature, doesn't he? Wonder if he chews gum? I'm trying to remember if we ever see anyone chewing gum, or even buying it.Yeah, I’ve been hesitant to bring it up at all, but meant to do so only in context of the questions about Voldemort and St. Mungos. It is possible also that the Longbottoms were tortured because Voldemort may have thought they knew where the Potters were. I don’t know though.

[whizbang121]

Maybe but I really don’t think so. I think you might be mistaken for several reasons.
... It goes on to say “Some Charms can be extremely powerful. The Fidelius Charm, for example, can completely hide a person or a place in such a way that no one can find them unless they are given the location by a Secret Keeper.
If the Potters were the object of the Fidelius, then I can understand that perhaps death breaks the charm and their bodies would be visible. At least we know that Sirius saw their bodies, and he must have been told the secret by Pettigrew.
But why can anyone see Harry? Unless Pettigrew had told Hargrid the secret, Hagrid would never have seen Harry in front of him. But he did take Harry out of the house. And even if Hagrid did know, how does anyone else see him?
I think it was their location that was the secret.

“New Clues to Harry Potter: Book 5” by Galadriel Waters has this to say: “So, as was explained by Flitwick in Book 3, even if the Potters were right in their house, since they were the secret being kept, they could not have been seen. Similarly even though the Order of the Phoenix does have its headquarters at Grimmauld Place, because it is under a Fidelius Charm, they and the house cannot be seen—even by other wizards who might be looking for them.” (Pg. 25) Uh huh.

All of this suggests to me that the Potters themselves were the object of the charm. And if that were not sufficient evidence, consider this. How dumb would it have been to place the charm on their house but not the Potters themselves? It defeats the purpose entirely if they leave the house. Pettigrew’s betrayal would have been unnecessary since all a Deatheater would have had to do would be hang around the village where the Potter’s house used to be and wait for one of them to leave, thus appearing. If the house was the object of the charm rather than the Potters themselves, we know from Grimmauld Place that the house cannot be seen and neither can the inhabitants while they are within the house. The Potters would be confined to that house. So it would seem. But we have also seen disillusionment charms, invisibility cloaks, and polyjuice potions. These may offer some freedom of movement as well. But again, if a person was going to be the object of a Fidelius, Harry and Neville were the most obvious choices.

*Laughing* You’re talking to a 23 year veteran dungeonmaster who’s been quizzed a lot by gamers trying to find loopholes in invisibility spell issues over the years. So its a specialty of sorts. And there is reason to believe that JKR did “borrow” some things from RPGs. Are you suggesting that following a trail of clues through literature and popular culture isn't a reasonable influence to pursue, but Dungeons and Dragons, is?! :rolleyes: Where do RPG authors get their ideas, I wonder? :huh:
The invisibility spell or cloak is good, but has its drawbacks, the biggest of which is that it apparently doesn’t work against some individuals (like Dumbledore). They probably wouldn’t work against Voldemort ... Dumbledore is an exceptional wizard, and even he is apparently fooled by polyjuice potion. The Fidelious charm is far harder to detect We have no idea what it's limitations are. Perhaps house elves can see through it, too. Or did someone tell Kreacher how to get back into Grimmauld Place after he'd left and gone to Narcissa?
and thus would make a perfect tool for a thief or an assassin. There is no fear of being seen, heard, smelled or noticed in any manner whatsoever, which is why I suggested this possiblity. Again, Dumbledore is an exceptional wizard.
Seems like a lot of extrapolation.
... I only mention the charm in the context that someone might be using it in St. Mungos where Neville’s parents are or how it might be used to fool Voldemort. I get the idea that Dumbledore can either see invisible objects ... because he seemed to know Harry was hiding under his cloak at Hagrids. I would think that if Dumbledore can “sense” invisible things (like Harry’s cloak), then Dobby might be able to as well. He has his own “special” brand of magic which seems vastly superior to wizards’. JKR was asked that question. Her answer was that while the magic of house elves is not superior to wizards, it is different. And the possiblilty of a house elf seeing through an invisibility cloak seems implied, though not a certainty, by Winky's ability to look after Crouch Jr. But again, invisibility cloaks are only one method.

... I’ve read these books too and am well aware of the reason given for Black suggesting Pettigrew become the Secret Keeper. ...but I’m not completely sold on that tale. Everyone wants to make Sirius to be the hero, but Sirius let more slip than he may have meant in the Shrieking shack. He showed that he knew Pettigrew far more than most assume. I already mentioned that he knew Pettigrew liked to hang around the strongest, toughest, baddest guy he could find. Baddest? Pettigrew's only intention was to gain protection from powerful wizards. At that time, it looked like Voldemort was the best bet to come out victorious. I don't think "baddest" a criteria. Based on Sirius' evaluation of Pettigrew, if Peter thought the Order would prevail he wouldn't have gone to Voldemort.
Yet Sirius still convinced the Potters to use Pettigrew as Secret Keeper. Sirius knew Pettigrew’s character far better than any of us (who have only the one scene in the Pensieve to go on). Knowing this, Sirius was either a bad guy or he was stupid. Which was it? Sirius was a man who had 12 years in Azkaban to figure out where he went wrong. And we know it was Pettigrew who went back to Voldemort, not Sirius, though he had ample opportunity. And Sirius, like Lupin could have killed or kidnapped Harry any number of times, but he didn't.
I would not have chosen either Sirius or Pettigrew. Dumbledore would be the obvious choice ... First, he was far more powerful than anyone else…and has shown us he’s quite capable of handling Voldemort in combat. Not sure they had faced off in combat at that time. It's only said that Voldemort feared him. There could be a number or reasons for this.

Second, the whole idea is that it was supposed to be a secret! Does anyone think Dumbledore would let the secret slip? Has he ever shown that he cannot be trusted with a secret? I think what you are overlooking is that the Potters didn't know who they could trust. A Dumbledore imposter could have been polyjuiced or who knows what else. But James and Sirius had shared too much in years of friendship to be fooled by imposters. It seems they thought they knew enough about Pettigrew as well.

In fact, I think the only reason he confronted Dumbledore in Book 5 was that he got caught in the wrong place when DD and the cavalry arrived. For all his boasting, I don’t believe Voldemort set out to fight DD at all and escaped at the first opportunity. He'd been avoiding the minstry and sending minions to try to get the prophesy. He knew the probablitliy that he would have to face Dumbledore if he went there. As for escaping at first opportunity, he put up quite a fight, as I recall, even to possessing Harry in front of Dumbledore. He only fled when Harry repelled him. Not before.
No, DD was the best option and Sirius knew it. James probably did too but took Sirius’ suggestion out of loyalty to his friend. The truth is, we still have no idea what was going on at the time. Hints, rumors, misplaced trust. We know they were mistaken about Lupin.
I’ve never thought Sirius was the knight in shining armor everyone is making him out to be. It’s too simple a plot and he's shown he has a mean streak in him. Did he not send Snape down the tunnel toward the Shrieking shack where the transformed werewolf Lupin was hiding? ... Even James Potter, cocky as he was, went in to save Pettigrew. James went in to save Lupin. He didn't give a proberbial rat's derriere about Snape. If Lupin had killed Snape, everything would have been revealed and who knows what would have happened to Remus. As it was, there was a certain amount of coverup and Lupin, who had been a Gryffindor prefect, was not the head boy. James was. Sirius didn't think of that when he allowed Snape's repeated attempts to find out their secret "get" to him, and just told Snivellus "where to go." This is partly how Sirius got his reputation for being rash. We do know that Snape could get to him, as Draco gets to Harry and Ron all too often.
... We may not have the whole story of what happened in the days leading up to the Potters’ death. Knowing Pettigrew as he did, Sirius could have set up Potters by suggesting Pettigrew who, being so happy to be involved, jumped at the chance. Then, hearing of the plight of the Longbottoms and thinking Voldemort was about to bring his plan to fruition, squealed predictably on the Potters in the hopes that Voldemort would show favor upon him. Makes sense to me. After all, all we have to go on is Sirius story. Pettigrew probably never realized this part of Sirius’ plan and thought he’d pulled the wool over Sirius’ eyes. Pettigrew had been passing information to the enemy for approx a year when he was made secret keeper. They all knew they had a spy, but for some reason, suspected Lupin. So for all intents and purposes, Pettigrew succeeded in "pulling the wool" over their eyes.

We don’t know what Dumbledore’s plan may have been, but we know that he was worried about letting Pettigrew be the secret keeper because we are told he was worried in Book 3. He was so worried that, knowing the dangers involved, he still offered to be the secret keeper himself. If he wasn’t worried about Potter’s choice for secret keeper, then what was he worried about? The weather? McGonagal, being a close associate to Dumbledore would have been the most likely person to know that DD was worried. It seems reasonable that Dumbledore would have been worried about any choice other than himself.
And if James and Sirius were in the habit of sharing secrets suggests that they have some trouble keeping them. Dumbledore may have realized this but didn’t want to suggest that one of James’ friends couldn’t be trusted to keep a secret.:huh: They never let on that they were animagi. That doesn't mean Dumbledore didn't know, but they didn't tell him. As of PoA, Remus was still of the belief that Dumbledore didn't know.
James and Sirius had been close friends for a long time. People know things about each other that others don't. In OotP when Moody wanted to be sure that Harry wasn't an imposter, Lupin asked him a question that very few could have answered, the form of his corporeal patronus.

... You aren’t supposed to see someone hidden by a Fidelius charm. ... There also may very well be a good reason why the charm wasn’t placed on Harry. What sort of life would a child have where no one could see him, hear him, feed him, change him, interact with him, teach him? Think about what you are suggesting. When you have a Fidelius charm placed upon you, you would be practically condemned into isolation.You're the one who suggested that the Potters were under a Fidelius. If that were true, Harry presumably still would be. And if Dumbledore had placed a Fidelius on Harry, he would have shared the secret with the people trusted to look after the child. It's not total isolation from those who know the secret. It's only the secret keeper's discretion who is allowed to know. But it wasn't used, so it's a moot point.
Yeah, I’ve been hesitant to bring it up at all, but meant to do so only in context of the questions about Voldemort and St. Mungos. It is possible also that the Longbottoms were tortured because Voldemort may have thought they knew where the Potters were. I don’t know though.The Longbottoms were tortured after Voldemort disappeared. The DEs thought thought the Longbottoms knew where Voldemort was. Perhaps, they thought the Longbottoms had Voldemort under a Fidelius. ;)

[GredandFeorge]

Another thing I wanted to mention in relation to Neville, bubblegum, and Mimbulus Mimbletonia is the two DOM dudes. There was Bode and Croak or Croaker - I can't quite remember which it is at the moment. In any case, I thought Croak would die since to croak is slang for dying, but it was Bode who died, so perhaps his name refers the other meaning of croak - which is the sound a frog or toad makes...again, I think his name is meant to reinforce the connection to Neville, since his pet Trevor is a toad...not a big thing, but thought I'd mention it anyway...