CoSForums Archive - Neville, Voldemort, and a LOT of gum v2

Dr Hesper

August 10th, 2004, 6:18 am

HOW did Sirius know where to go if Pettigrew was the secret keeper, and therefore, should have been the ONLY one to know where the Potters were. If the reason that Sirius chose not to be secret keeper was because he figured LV would come to him, how did he know where they were the night they were killed??
Better yet, why was Sirius even around? And he knew where to go because the house was probably not the object of the Fidelius Charm….the Potters were.

Good point, whizbang! I never have thought of that before. If Peter did tell Hagrid the secret, then wouldn't Hagrid have known that Peter was the secret keeper? I would assume that death does indeed break the charm, but that doesn't explain why they can see Harry. That point alone has changed my mind that their location was the secret.I cant imagine anyone telling Hagrid who has shown many many times he cannot be trusted to keep a secret. He’s a great guy, but it would be sheer lunacy to tell him something like that.

If the Potters were the object of the Fidelius, then I can understand that perhaps death breaks the charm and their bodies would be visible. At least we know that Sirius saw their bodies, and he must have been told the secret by Pettigrew.
But why can anyone see Harry? Unless Pettigrew had told Hargrid the secret, Hagrid would never have seen Harry in front of him. But he did take Harry out of the house. And even if Hagrid did know, how does anyone else see him?
I think it was their location that was the secret. That’s fine if you believe that. Its as valid an explanation as any. Maybe the house was the object. However I must ask how Sirius would have ever seen the house? If Pettigrew were the secret keeper, and the house was the object of the secret, how does Sirius explain his being at the house? He couldn’t have known where it wassince he wasn’t the secret keeper. As for Harry being found by Hagrid…I can only assume that when the Potters died, the spell was broken. As you said, we don’t know the properties of this spell. Perhaps the spell is too powerful to risk placing on a baby, I don’t know. It’s as good a theory as any.

So it would seem. But we have also seen disillusionment charms, invisibility cloaks, and polyjuice potions. These may offer some freedom of movement as well.They certainly may. However I would suggest that a person under the effects of those spells are at greater risk of being found out by their own mistakes (making noises, etc) while an assassin under a Fidelius charm would not have to worry about such limitations. You seem to suggest this is impossible. How do you know it is impossible? If I saw something from a legitimate source showing that a Fidelius Charm cannot be placed on a person, then I would discount my hypothesis and move on. If you wish to shoot this theory down then it is up to you to prove that it cannot be done. And you cant because you have no evidence.

Are you suggesting that following a trail of clues through literature and popular culture isn't a reasonable influence to pursue, but Dungeons and Dragons, is?! Where do RPG authors get their ideas, I wonder? Again, you show your mastery at twisting words. I never suggested that. I only suggested that from time to time I have dealt with these issues for many years. If you know anything at all about good gaming, you know that it requires a lot of research in literary sources.

Dumbledore is an exceptional wizard, and even he is apparently fooled by polyjuice potion.No doubt. I never said he was perfect. I did suggest that he might be able to see through items such as invisibility cloaks and the like. Do you deny this possibility?

We have no idea what it's limitations are.You prove my point about the difficulty in explaining the Fidelius charm. We don’t know what its limitations are, nor its dangers (if any). However my point here was that if only the secret keeper could know about the object of the spell and no one else, then this spell is vastly superior to using a simple invisibility cloak, whereby the user can give himself away with a sound, a cough, a sneeze or whatever. We saw Harry nearly get caught by Snape while under the invisibility cloak. We saw evidence that others could see Harry while using the cloak. You cannot logically deny that if the Fidelius charm were used on a person, it is far superior to a simple cloak or potion. It would make an excellent way to come and go unhindered in St. Mungos.

Again, Dumbledore is an exceptional wizard. Seems like a lot of extrapolation.I’ve made my case and you’ve offered no good evidence that it cannot be done.

JKR was asked that question. Her answer was that while the magic of house elves is not superior to wizards, it is different. And the possiblilty of a house elf seeing through an invisibility cloak seems implied, though not a certainty, by Winky's ability to look after Crouch Jr. But again, invisibility cloaks are only one method.I don’t think it is implied. I merely speculated here based on what I’d seen. JKR knows for sure. I only wrote this after seeing Dobby tangle with Lucius Malfoy.

Baddest? Pettigrew's only intention was to gain protection from powerful wizards. At that time, it looked like Voldemort was the best bet to come out victorious. I don't think "baddest" a criteria. Based on Sirius' evaluation of Pettigrew, if Peter thought the Order would prevail he wouldn't have gone to Voldemort.I don’t understand why you contradict me, then immediately prove my own point. I indicated that Sirius knew that Pettigrew liked to hang around the strongest, toughest, baddest guy he could find. Baddest doesn’t necessarily translate to evil. It does mean the toughest person or group most likely to be victorius.

Sirius was a man who had 12 years in Azkaban to figure out where he went wrong.That’s his story. Cross examination would rip it to shreds.

And we know it was Pettigrew who went back to Voldemort, not Sirius, though he had ample opportunity. And Sirius, like Lupin could have killed or kidnapped Harry any number of times, but he didn't.You’ve heard of a mole? And you do know the prophesy don’t you?

Not sure they had faced off in combat at that time. It's only said that Voldemort feared him. There could be a number or reasons for this.I still think DD was a better choice as secret keeper and there is a good reason for this. Dumbledore, though the obvious target, was also the wisest and strongest of all. You ignored my questions on this so I’ll ask them again. Does anyone think Dumbledore would let the secret slip? Has he ever shown that he cannot be trusted with a secret? Do we know of anyone who could pry the information out of him? I doubt even Voldemort would risk trying that.

Choosing Pettigrew would normally be irrational since he would have been most likely to defect if the tide turned against them. And Sirius has shown he knew this. He claims that he felt it was the perfect plan…a bluff but he’s condemned himself with his own words. He called Pettigrew weak and talentless, showing that he knew Pettigrew would never be able to keep the secret if cornered. Sirius admits that he knew what sort of weak character Pettigrew had when he says “But you Peter---I’ll never understand why I didn’t see you were a spy from the start. You always liked big friends who’d look after you, didn’t you? It used to be us...me and Remus…and James…” What sort of idiot would place such vital information in the hands of a person like Pettigrew?

And there are other questions about Sirius Black. His family tree is loaded with villains. He claims he’s one of the few good guys in the family and some names were blasted from the tree for some reason. Maybe he’s right, but all we have is his word. Despite your attempts to rewrite the novel, Sirius did send Snape down the tunnel toward the Shrieking shack where the transformed werewolf Lupin was hiding. And Potter did go after him to save Snape…not Lupin. He tried to claim it was a joke but was it? All we have is his word. Would a good, honorable person intentionally do something that would result in that sort of injury or death to another…even if he disliked that other person?

Sirius Black has gone out of his way to try to make excuses for his actions. I’m not even convinced his excuse for remaining sane in Azkaban was the truth. He claims the Dementors couldn’t harm him as an animal. This may be true, but how do we readers know for sure? I’m not aware that any other character corroborated this. Maybe he was being protected. All we have is his word. And I still say the evidence is beginning to mount. How trustworthy is Sirius? Why did Dumbledore really restrict him to Grimmauld Place despite the protests of his friends? Was he trying to keep Sirius hidden, or rather confined?

I still suspect James Potter felt DD was the best choice as secret keeper well but allowed Sirius to talk him out of it. All excuses aside, the bottom line is that Dumbledore was the one who suggested the Fidelius charm, and even offered to be the secret keeper. Sirius talked him out of using Dumbledore and into using the weak willed, cowardly, spineless, Pettigrew. That’s what we know.

Not sure they had faced off in combat at that time. It's only said that Voldemort feared him. There could be a number or reasons for this.Yeah, I can think of one very good one.

I think what you are overlooking is that the Potters didn't know who they could trust. A Dumbledore imposter could have been polyjuiced or who knows what else. But James and Sirius had shared too much in years of friendship to be fooled by imposters. It seems they thought they knew enough about Pettigrew as well. Remember that JKR as an author is honor bound to play fair with her mystery. If she doesn’t, she risks ridicule from her peers. She has given us hints so far. Though we’ve read of the Polyjuice potion, JKR was careful to show Crouch Jr drinking from his flask. She gave logical clues to show that he was drinking the Polyjuice potion. I know of no real evidence that suggests there was a Dumbledore imposter and as such, the theory is conjecture at best. I think the Potters could have trusted Dumbledore and knew it. Why else take advice from him? Why bother with his idea of the Fidelius charm if they felt they couldn’t trust him? No, they trusted Dumbledore. They merely made a mistake in trusting Sirius. Like you and so many others, they believed his excuses. Look at the end result.

He'd been avoiding the minstry and sending minions to try to get the prophesy. He knew the probablitliy that he would have to face Dumbledore if he went there. As for escaping at first opportunity, he put up quite a fight, as I recall, even to possessing Harry in front of Dumbledore. He only fled when Harry repelled him. Not before.You cannot expect voldemort to simply waltz into the ministry and take charge. He isn’t powerful enough to do this on his own and is why he has help. I don’t think he went to the ministry to face Dumbledore and don’t think he expected to meet him there. He went to get the Prophesy and to perhaps put an end to Harry. His duel with Dumbledore was ineffective in that he never, ever pressed DD at all. Voldemort found himself in the fight of his life that night. Though a cunning maneuver, he possessed Harry only when he realized he could not defeat Dumbledore on his own. He tried to get DD to attack Harry but likely also felt he could find sanctuary there. No, at the end of book 5, Voldemort didn’t have a prayer of standing up to Dumbledore and was lucky to escape with his life. He knew it and never intended to confront him.

James went in to save Lupin. He didn't give a proberbial rat's derriere about Snape. You’re completely wrong here. Snape figured out that Lupin's secret involved a trip through the secret tunnel under the Whomping Willow, and was convinced by Black to go in and find out. Snape would have been killed by the werewolf - or at best been bitten and become a werewolf himself - if James hadn't warned him at the last moment. James therefore saved Snape's life, a fact which angered and annoyed Snape for years afterwards. (HP Lexicon)

You're the one who suggested that the Potters were under a Fidelius.I said it was a possibility, not a fact. Actually my quote was I was thinking…if the Potters were the objects of the Fidelius Charm and they were completely unknown to anyone but the Secret Keeper (Pettigrew), this means 2 things:…You are the one who immediately jumped on this saying that the Potters couldn’t be the object of the charm, and then have proceeded to nitpick and tear apart my post. So don’t try to pin this one on me. I only suggested a possibility based on information I got from the novels, not a Beatles album or a Lewis Carol story. That’s all.

For anyone else reading who cares to look at this intelligently, I say again that my whole point was that we’ve been told that the Fidelius spell can hide a person or a place. It would make an excellent tool for an assassin. You seem to contend that it is impossible for a person to be placed under this spell but, having no way to back it up, you steer the discussion to the Potters and begin nitpicking my posts. Maybe they weren’t placed under the Fidelius spell. We don’t know, but you don’t have a shred of evidence to prove it could not be done. I, at least, have given written evidence where it has been suggested. I can’t help it if you give that no credence.

Gwenog Jones

August 10th, 2004, 6:57 am

I cant imagine anyone telling Hagrid who has shown many many times he cannot be trusted to keep a secret. He’s a great guy, but it would be sheer lunacy to tell him something like that.
I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. I was trying to say that since Hagrid could see Harry and find their location, than he must have been told the secret from Peter. Then, Hagrid would have known that Peter was the secret keeper. I agree with you that Peter would not have told Hagrid the secret. So, how could Hagrid see Harry? That was what I was trying to say. Hope I made better sense this time :)

Dr Hesper

August 10th, 2004, 7:21 am

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. I was trying to say that since Hagrid could see Harry and find their location, than he must have been told the secret from Peter. Then, Hagrid would have known that Peter was the secret keeper. I agree with you that Peter would not have told Hagrid the secret. So, how could Hagrid see Harry? That was what I was trying to say. Hope I made better sense this time :)My bad. :blush: this is sheer speculation on my part here, but a lot of things may have taken place that day. I find it interesting that there was so much activity within a short period of time after the house was destroyed.

First, though i may be in the minority, I dont think the house was the object of the Fidelius Charm. Harry may never have been placed under the charm for a reason. Or the spell may have been broken by his parent's death, i just dont know yet. :)

What we do know is that the house could be seen after the explosion.
We also know that Hagrid could see Harry (though I'm not certain if we know of any graves or sightings of the Potters' bodies).
A finger was found. (Pettigrews).
We also know that Sirius arrived quickly on his motorcycle.
We know he immediately insisted that Harry be given to him and and even argued with Hagrid about it.
Failing that, he gives Hagrid his motorcycle and left.
Hagrid questioned his reason for doing so because he felt Sirius would need it to make his escape (since everyone thought he was the secret keeper).
Of course, he was apprehended and sent to Azkaban where he apparently did not suffer from the effects of the dementors.

And all we have to go on is Sirius' word for all of this.

I think its pretty weird.

:)

furryfreakferret

August 10th, 2004, 8:26 am

Hmm…I hadn’t thought of that! I wonder if this was just a mistake by JKR? Maybe she forgot a password would be needed to get into the Slytherin common room? OTOH, she’s pretty sharp and there may be a good reason for their success. Gee…I wish someone could ask her about that. Lol! No, no, Doc. They DID need a password to get in. Luckily, they ran into Malfoy, who supplied them with it. I was just pointing out that even though the entrance was gaurded by a password, Harry and Ron managed to sneak in while mimicking the appearance of two Slytherins. Passwords don't foolproof anything. Nothing is foolproof to a highly qualified fool. Or, perhaps in this case, a couple of clever ones. It's just something to think about.

Bagman and Wormtail are both suspiciously missing. It wouldn't surprise me to see Bagman working for Malfoy. I actually think it's the other way around. With Malfoy working for Bagman. But I think I may have already mentioned my suspicions somewhere and so I'll keep quiet.

I’m not forgetting that. I’ve read these books too and am well aware of the reason given for Black suggesting Pettigrew become the Secret Keeper. Yes, you have fairly accurately described the excuse given by Sirius, but I’m not completely sold on that tale. Everyone wants to make Sirius to be the hero, but Sirius let more slip than he may have meant in the Shrieking shack. He showed that he knew Pettigrew far more than most assume. I already mentioned that he knew Pettigrew liked to hang around the strongest, toughest, baddest guy he could find. This meant Voldemort at the time. Yet Sirius still convinced the Potters to use Pettigrew as Secret Keeper. Sirius knew Pettigrew’s character far better than any of us (who have only the one scene in the Pensieve to go on). Knowing this, Sirius was either a bad guy or he was stupid. Which was it? Ah, come on, Doc! That's a little harsh. They had always considered Peter their friend. We're all a little blind to the faults of a good friend. You remember that picture of Moody's which had Peter seated directly between James and Lily? That showed how deep the bond was. Sirius may have known what a little rat Peter was when he told the Potters to switch, but it would have been subconciously. He would have been pushing the idea away from him. But he had twelve years in Azkaben to relive everything, think things through. And, of course, Peter was probably pretty chief in his thoughts, second only to Lily and James and maybe Mr. and Mrs. Potter. In retrospect, everything became clear.

And I must ask this before I crack: If Sirius is so evil, why was Bellatirx, his own cousin, fighting him? Why did she kill him?

Oh! and I've just had a thought about why everyone can see Harry if he was concievably under the Fidelus Charm. Maybe, when Voldything preformed the Curse, instead of killing Harry, it "killed" the Charm upon him, broke it, you know? Maybe that's why it didn't work. -click!-

If I saw something from a legitimate source showing that a Fidelius Charm cannot be placed on a person, then I would discount my hypothesis and move on. If you wish to shoot this theory down then it is up to you to prove that it cannot be done. And you cant because you have no evidence. What legitimate source have we found this from? And apart from that, if you'll all forgive me for mentioning it, whatever became to the ideals of version 1, where we discovered things through teamwork and civil discussion instead of the usual method of confrontational argument? It's not the same anymore.... :(

atherella

August 10th, 2004, 5:10 pm

I find Dr. Hesper's thoughts about Sirius very intriguing. It never ocurred to me prior to reading some of his posts, that Sirius knew exactly where the Potters were. Thinking back and re-reading that part of the books shows that Sirius showed up right after the Potters were killed. Sirius said he didn't want to be secret keeper (and I assume, thus, he didn't want to know where the Potters were located in case LV tried to get the information from him), but somehow, he knew exactly where to find them. If he had this information, LV could very well have still tried to gain this info from him (even if he couldn't find either the house or the Potters, depending if the Fidelity Charm was on the house or the Potters). This is very strange and raises all sorts of red flags, IMHO. Somehow, Sirius shows up at the house right after the Potters are killed, at the same time as Hagrid, who was sent by DD to collect Harry. (Which leads to another question...how does DD know exactly when the Potters were killed, and how he knew Harry had lived. NO...I do not suspect DD is evil, I am just wondering HOW he knew). Like Dr. Hesper points out, Sirius does beg to allow Harry to go with him, rather than Hagrid.

Let me go on to say this.... I don't think Sirius is evil or on LV's side, I just think that he has a lot to hide, which will be very important to the end of the series. I think that Sirius genuinely loves Harry, but that doesn't mean he isn't keeping secrets. One thing that points to Sirius not being evil is that JKR was very upset when she killed him. She mourned him. I don't think that she would mourn the loss of a bad guy. IF LV is killed in the end, I doubt she'd shed a tear for him. My point is that I think there is a lot more about Sirius that we have to learn, and while most people don't like the idea, I am not convinced it is all good.

whizbang121

August 10th, 2004, 5:12 pm

The Harry Potter Lexicon has this to say about the Charm: "An immensely complex spell involving the magical concealment of a secret inside a single, living soul. The information is hidden inside the chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to find -- unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it. As long as the Secret-Keeper refused to speak, You-Know-Who could search the village where Lily and James were staying for years and never find them, not even if he had his nose pressed against their sitting room window!" Okay, I can find this part here at the Lexicon. (http://www.hp-lexicon.org/magic/spells_f.html#Fidelius) But I don't know wher the next quote comes from. Can you point me in the right direction?

It goes on to say “Some Charms can be extremely powerful. The Fidelius Charm, for example, can completely hide a person or a place in such a way that no one can find them unless they are given the location by a Secret Keeper.” Here it is in paragraph three on this page (http://www.hp-lexicon.org/magic/charms.html) at the Lexicon. But this statement is an unreferenced opinion of the essay's author. Remember, the Lexicon is working with the same material we are. They don't know have access to anything that we don't, though I readily concede they put much more effort into their research than I do. If there is a reference for the statement, is wasn't posted it on the page.

If the Potters were the secret, then how can we see Harry now? Hagrid would have had to know the secret from Pettigrew to get Harry out, and someone would have to know a countercurse so anyone who hadn't been told the secret by Peter would be able to see the bably. All this is possible

But if the Potters were themselves the secret, why were they hiding at Godric's Hollow? By your description of the effects, they should have been able to move about freely with the assurance that only Peter and whoever Peter revealed the secret to, would be able to detect them. Instead, they were holed up.

In the final analysis, we can only wait for JKR to reveal her story.

Better yet, why was Sirius even around? And he knew where to go because the house was probably not the object of the Fidelius Charm….the Potters were. Isn't if more likely that Pettigrew told him the secret. He could know the secret, but not being the keeper, be unable to reveal it.

I cant imagine anyone telling Hagrid who has shown many many times he cannot be trusted to keep a secret. He’s a great guy, but it would be sheer lunacy to tell him something like that. Exactly.
However I must ask how Sirius would have ever seen the house? He couldn’t have known where it wassince he wasn’t the secret keeper. He could know if Peter told him, and wouldn't the Potters have insisted on that?

If you wish to shoot this theory down then it is up to you to prove that it cannot be done. And you cant because you have no evidence. I'm suggesting that the Potters very probably aren't an example.

Again, you show your mastery at twisting words. I never suggested that. I only suggested that from time to time I have dealt with these issues for many years. If you know anything at all about good gaming, you know that it requires a lot of research in literary sources. Interesting, since it was you who expressed the opinion that as literature and anything concerning The Beatles were not canon and you, personally saw no relationship between them and HP/gum wrappers, even though many of us did, these subjects shouldn't be discussed. This, directed at Silver Ink Pot, was from post #191.
I personally don’t see any connection with Alice Longbottom and Alice in Wonderland other than the name. Or Frank Longbottom and Frank L. Baum. One can make the equally ridiculous claim that since she used that name 'Longbottom' (because of ‘Longbottom Leaf” in Tolkien’s LotR) we can assume that Frank Longbottom is a pothead now…because that claim has been made about Gandalf. Claiming that Alice is crying out for help and connecting it to the movie 'Help' is interesting and cute. However, tons of characters in films and novels cry out for help all the time, but this doesnt mean the author is borrowing from Alice in Wonderland or the Beatles. IMO, its a little thing called 'coincidence'. Thats all. No offense intended, but is there a chance that the notion that you spent all day reading the 'Help' anthology has skewed your analysis?

There is no doubt that JKR read those books and may have been “inspired” to borrow a few things from those stories. But the evidence is shaky at best. We have no reason to believe that any of this has anything to do with JKR’s story because Alice in Wonderland, Lord of the Rings and The Wizard of Oz are not canon to the Harry Potter realm. I don’t think JKR ever intended fans to be forced to read those other unrelated books to be able to solve the mysteries of her book. In other words, I don’t believe that we will ever find the “answers” in Alice in Wonderland or Lord of the Rings. Both great books and interesting ideas…but I’m afraid that dawg wont hunt. I believe that we should stick with her books because it would be unfair for her as an author to create a mystery where we are forced to read other novels to solve this mystery. And I believe that JKR plays fairly.Perhaps the same could be said for interpretations from Dungeons and Dragons?

No doubt. I never said he was perfect. I did suggest that he might be able to see through items such as invisibility cloaks and the like. Do you deny this possibility? You're missing the point. Dumbledore could be polyjuiced or otherwise impersonated. The Potters needed a secret keeper who's identity was unquestionable to them. They succeeded in finding one. They just didn't know he was a traitor. Peter was either a respectable occlumens, or it never occured to anyone that he would betray them. I suspect the latter.

You prove my point about the difficulty in explaining the Fidelius charm. We don’t know what its limitations are, nor its dangers (if any). However my point here was that if only the secret keeper could know about the object of the spell and no one else, This is clearly not the way it works. The secret keeper can reveal the secret to whomever they choose. The person to whom it is revealed cannot share it, but they can know it.
...then this spell is vastly superior to using a simple invisibility cloak, whereby the user can give himself away with a sound, a cough, a sneeze or whatever. We saw Harry nearly get caught by Snape while under the invisibility cloak. We saw evidence that others could see Harry while using the cloak. You cannot logically deny that if the Fidelius charm were used on a person, it is far superior to a simple cloak or potion. It would make an excellent way to come and go unhindered in St. Mungos. If it's possible, sure. But why? The attendant that brought the devil's snare up to Bode was quite visible.

I don’t understand why you contradict me, then immediately prove my own point. I indicated that Sirius knew that Pettigrew liked to hang around the strongest, toughest, baddest guy he could find. Baddest doesn’t necessarily translate to evil. It does mean the toughest person or group most likely to be victorius. Excuse me. I didn't consider that translation of "baddest."

That’s his story. Cross examination would rip it to shreds. I don't see how, but Dumbledore accepted Sirius' and Lupin's stories.
And you do know the prophesy don’t you? :rotfl: To steal a phrase; that, I've heard of. :lol:

I still think DD was a better choice as secret keeper and there is a good reason for this. Dumbledore, though the obvious target, was also the wisest and strongest of all. You ignored my questions on this so I’ll ask them again. Does anyone think Dumbledore would let the secret slip? Has he ever shown that he cannot be trusted with a secret? Do we know of anyone who could pry the information out of him? I doubt even Voldemort would risk trying that.
On the contrary, I've answered that question several times. It's not a question of Dumbledore's ability to keep a secret. It's a matter of the Potters being cautious about the possibility of an imposter.

And Sirius has shown he knew this. He claims that he felt it was the perfect plan…a bluff but he’s condemned himself with his own words. He called Pettigrew weak and talentless, showing that he knew Pettigrew would never be able to keep the secret if cornered. Sirius admits that he knew what sort of weak character Pettigrew had when he says “But you Peter---I’ll never understand why I didn’t see you were a spy from the start. You always liked big friends who’d look after you, didn’t you? It used to be us...me and Remus…and James…” What sort of idiot would place such vital information in the hands of a person like Pettigrew? They didn't question Peter's identity. All those characteristics were exactly why they didn't think Voldemort would bother with Peter. What they didn't count on was Peter going to the Dark Lord. (Why do I feel like I'm repeating myself? Am I repeating myself? :whistle: )

Despite your attempts to rewrite the novel, Sirius did send Snape down the tunnel toward the Shrieking shack where the transformed werewolf Lupin was hiding. And Potter did go after him to save Snape…not Lupin. He tried to claim it was a joke but was it? All we have is his word. Would a good, honorable person intentionally do something that would result in that sort of injury or death to another…even if he disliked that other person? ;) Gotta go. Grand Central Station here, today.:rolleyes: I'll be back. :)

atherella

August 10th, 2004, 5:24 pm

Isn't if more likely that Pettigrew told him the secret. He could know the secret, but not being the keeper, be unable to reveal it.

I forgot about that part. D'oh! :lol: That very well could explain how Sirius knew where to find the Potters. I still wonder how it is that Sirius came to be at the Potters right after they were killed, but I totally had forgotten that the secret keeper could tell other people "the secret" (whether it be location or on a person), but that those other people don't have the ability to expose the secret (by making the "secret" visible).

I also wonder how DD knew to send Hagrid to the Potters right after the explosion. I suppose if the explosion and the Potters death made the location where they were in GH visible, then someone from the order could have notified DD. Just seems like it all happened very quickly, and how does one get that info SO quickly?

whizbang121

August 10th, 2004, 5:34 pm

Good thought. Dumbledore may have had someone watching in the village. Remember Molly Weasley's clock? And Dumbledore's watch? And all those silver instruments. We shouldn't underestimate Dumbledore.

Gwenog Jones

August 10th, 2004, 6:03 pm

Good thought. Dumbledore may have had someone watching in the village. Remember Molly Weasley's clock? And Dumbledore's watch? And all those silver instruments. We shouldn't underestimate Dumbledore.

Good point. That would explain how right after it happened, everyone knew. Everyone questions why Sirius arrived there right after, and how he knew that it happened. Well, I'm sure once Dumbledore found out, he would have alerted Sirius because he was known to have been the secret keeper. Dumbledore watching Godric's Hollow would definitely make sense :cool:

Dedalus Diggle

August 10th, 2004, 6:16 pm

Good point. That would explain how right after it happened, everyone knew. Everyone questions why Sirius arrived there right after, and how he knew that it happened. Well, I'm sure once Dumbledore found out, he would have alerted Sirius because he was known to have been the secret keeper. Dumbledore watching Godric's Hollow would definitely make sense :cool:
I think Sirius said why he went there. Certianly if DD thoguht Sirius had betrayed the Potters he would have not have said words which effectively meant - 'better get over there and finish the job.'

Gwenog Jones

August 10th, 2004, 6:31 pm

I think Sirius said why he went there. Certianly if DD thoguht Sirius had betrayed the Potters he would have not have said words which effectively meant - 'better get over there and finish the job.'
I don't remember Sirius saying why he went there. I don't have my books on hand, and if you could provide a quote that would be great :D
Also, I think that Dumbledore would have alerted Sirius with words like -- Voldemort attacked the Potters, you broke the secret, what the **** did you do!?

whizbang121

August 10th, 2004, 8:16 pm

Where were we?
[/b] What sort of idiot would place such vital information in the hands of a person like Pettigrew? That's been answered so many times that I'm going to take a chance, and not repeat myself ...... again. :whistle:

And there are other questions about Sirius Black. His family tree is loaded with villains. He claims he’s one of the few good guys in the family and some names were blasted from the tree for some reason. Maybe he’s right, but all we have is his word. Despite your attempts to rewrite the novel, Sirius did send Snape down the tunnel toward the Shrieking shack where the transformed werewolf Lupin was hiding. And Potter did go after him to save Snape…not Lupin. He tried to claim it was a joke but was it? All we have is his word. Would a good, honorable person intentionally do something that would result in that sort of injury or death to another…even if he disliked that other person?It occurs to me that perhaps you should start a thread about your theory on Sirius. it's perfectly valid and worth a good discussion. But, beyond the point about the Fidelius, I'm not sure it's relevant here.
I still suspect James Potter felt DD was the best choice as secret keeper well but allowed Sirius to talk him out of it. All excuses aside, the bottom line is that Dumbledore was the one who suggested the Fidelius charm, and even offered to be the secret keeper. Sirius talked him out of using Dumbledore and into using the weak willed, cowardly, spineless, Pettigrew. That’s what we know. The bottom line is that the Potters wanted Sirius to be their secret keeper. He talked them out of it because it was obvious that he would be Voldemort's first target. And he convinced them to go with Peter because.....:huh:
I'm repeating myself .... again.

Remember that JKR as an author is honor bound to play fair with her mystery. If she doesn’t, she risks ridicule from her peers. She has given us hints so far. Though we’ve read of the Polyjuice potion, JKR was careful to show Crouch Jr drinking from his flask. She gave logical clues to show that he was drinking the Polyjuice potion. I know of no real evidence that suggests there was a Dumbledore imposter and as such, the theory is conjecture at best. We know so little of what went on at that time. But remember what Dumbledore said at the end of GoF.
" ... I say to you all, once again - in the light of Lord Voldemort's return, we are only as strong as we are united, as weak as we are divided. Lord Voldemort's gift for spreading discord and enmity is very great. We can fight it only by showing an equally strong bond of friendship and trust. This was the climate when Voldemort was at the height of his powers. There was confusion everywhere and no one knew who to trust. It's Voldemort's great talent to set them all against each other. We just don't know why each decision was made. But we can understand the duress they were made under.

You cannot expect voldemort to simply waltz into the ministry and take charge. He isn’t powerful enough to do this on his own and is why he has help. I don’t think he went to the ministry to face Dumbledore and don’t think he expected to meet him there. He went to get the Prophesy and to perhaps put an end to Harry. His duel with Dumbledore was ineffective in that he never, ever pressed DD at all. Voldemort found himself in the fight of his life that night. Though a cunning maneuver, he possessed Harry only when he realized he could not defeat Dumbledore on his own. He tried to get DD to attack Harry but likely also felt he could find sanctuary there. No, at the end of book 5, Voldemort didn’t have a prayer of standing up to Dumbledore and was lucky to escape with his life. He knew it and never intended to confront him. Their duel (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=11407&highlight=battle) is explored on this thread.

You’re completely wrong here. Snape figured out that Lupin's secret involved a trip through the secret tunnel under the Whomping Willow, and was convinced by Black to go in and find out. Snape would have been killed by the werewolf - or at best been bitten and become a werewolf himself - if James hadn't warned him at the last moment. James therefore saved Snape's life, a fact which angered and annoyed Snape for years afterwards. (HP Lexicon) With all we know about what went on in school, why would anyone think for a moment that James was acting out of concern for Snape rather than for the ramifications to the marauders, particularly Lupin? It's not reasonable. Snape was annoyed when arrived at Hogwarts. He was already knowledgble in the dark arts and the marauders made no effort to hide their distain, to the point of besting him at his own game. But I should search for a thread to discuss that as well. Well, there's this (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=17441&highlight=Snape) and here's another. (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=5392&highlight=Snape)

You are the one who immediately jumped on this saying that the Potters couldn’t be the object of the charm, and then have proceeded to nitpick and tear apart my post. So don’t try to pin this one on me. I only suggested a possibility based on information I got from the novels, not a Beatles album or a Lewis Carol story. That’s all.:cool: I can;t even go there.

For anyone else reading who cares to look at this intelligently, Um, I'm sorry, :D. Am I being dumb, again? I say again that my whole point was that we’ve been told that the Fidelius spell can hide a person or a place. It would make an excellent tool for an assassin. You seem to contend that it is impossible for a person to be placed under this spell but, having no way to back it up, you steer the discussion to the Potters and begin nitpicking my posts. Maybe they weren’t placed under the Fidelius spell. We don’t know, but you don’t have a shred of evidence to prove it could not be done. I, at least, have given written evidence where it has been suggested. I can’t help it if you give that no credence.
:cool:
What legitimate source have we found this from? And apart from that, if you'll all forgive me for mentioning it, whatever became to the ideals of version 1, where we discovered things through teamwork and civil discussion instead of the usual method of confrontational argument? It's not the same anymore.... :(
Good question.

Good point. That would explain how right after it happened, everyone knew. Everyone questions why Sirius arrived there right after, and how he knew that it happened. Well, I'm sure once Dumbledore found out, he would have alerted Sirius because he was known to have been the secret keeper. Dumbledore watching Godric's Hollow would definitely make sense :cool:
Sirius story was that he went to check on Peter in his hiding place and found him gone. Fearing something had gone wrong, he went to Godric's Hollow to check on the Potters. So, if we believe him, he arrived not knowing anything had happened, yet. Hmmmm..... Maybe here. (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=27717&highlight=Godric%27s)

Gwenog Jones

August 10th, 2004, 9:14 pm

Sirius story was that he went to check on Peter in his hiding place and found him gone. Fearing something had gone wrong, he went to Godric's Hollow to check on the Potters. So, if we believe him, he arrived not knowing anything had happened, yet.
Aha! Now I remember! Thank you :)

Dr Hesper

August 11th, 2004, 2:06 am

Where were we?
That's been answered so many times that I'm going to take a chance, and not repeat myself ...... again. :whistle:
It occurs to me that perhaps you should start a thread about your theory on Sirius. it's perfectly valid and worth a good discussion. But, beyond the point about the Fidelius, I'm not sure it's relevant here.I could and I may if there is enough interest. So far these pages are dominated by yours and my posts on the subject. If there is more interest, I would be happy to participate if…the debate can return to a more civilized format. But I have no wish to let it spiral out of control as it is in danger of doing. I do agree that perhaps 98% of this stuff doesn’t belong in this thread and even said so early on and repeatedly.

I ended my 2nd post on the subject with this: But that’s all for another thread I guess. My point about the charm always was that the recipient of the Fidelius charm would have a lot of leeway to come and go as they chose and no one would be the wiser. How about Ludo Bagman, who seems to have dropped out of site? He owed some rather large bills didn’t he? Could he and Malfoy have concocted a plan to have Bagman do some rather sinister things for him?

I never wished to drag this all out and I don’t believe that I’m the only one at fault here. Let me know if anyone wishes to debate this topic with me elsewhere.

whizbang121

August 11th, 2004, 2:15 am

Don't take a poll. Just open the thread. Never know who'll show up. :tu:

Dr Hesper

August 11th, 2004, 2:51 am

No, no, Doc. They DID need a password to get in. Luckily, they ran into Malfoy, who supplied them with it. My bad. You’re right. :)

Ah, come on, Doc! That's a little harsh. They had always considered Peter their friend. We're all a little blind to the faults of a good friend. You remember that picture of Moody's which had Peter seated directly between James and Lily? That showed how deep the bond was. Sirius may have known what a little rat Peter was when he told the Potters to switch, but it would have been subconciously. He would have been pushing the idea away from him. But he had twelve years in Azkaben to relive everything, think things through.Well…perhaps. I don’t know though. No offense intended, but for some reason a lot of people don’t want to take a hard look with an open mind at some of the things Sirius reveals when he speaks. If a new thread is begun on the subject, I would be happy to participate. :)

What legitimate source have we found this from? And apart from that, if you'll all forgive me for mentioning it, whatever became to the ideals of version 1, where we discovered things through teamwork and civil discussion instead of the usual method of confrontational argument? It's not the same anymore....I do apologize for my part. Rather than post my thoughts in this thread, I’ll be happy to Owl you my thoughts on the subject. :)

(Which leads to another question...how does DD know exactly when the Potters were killed, and how he knew Harry had lived.Hi! One thought that comes to mind is the possibility of House elves living with the Potters. Or perhaps paintings? Or maybe Owls? And yes…his silver instruments. I don’t know. It would be an interesting discussion. :)

Don;t take a poll. Just open the thread. Never know who'll show up. :tu:Well, there are 86 threads already about Sirius black. I feel sure the Forum Police will come along and move our thread without telling us where…again. But here it is: http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=1189573&postcount=1

whizbang121

August 11th, 2004, 3:01 am

Painless, right? Can't die any faster than mine do. ;)

silver ink pot

August 11th, 2004, 4:35 am

Dr. Hesper: You should make haste over to the threads: "Sirius and James - Not that Bad" and "Sirius: A Sociopath." You might find that alot of people feel exactly as you do about Sirius (including yours truly). As far as your opinion of my Beatles/Alice/Frank/HELP! theory, I'm stickin' to it! (But Sirius has definitely got problems!)

Anyway, Back to the Gum Wrappers which are the heart and soul of this thread. :evil: :tu: :angel:

I just had another encounter with 713V on the Official Site! Have you tried this?

For anyone who doesn't remember: the gum wrappers spell out 713 with the fallen ink pens forming a V on top of them. Look further back on this thread for a discussion of all that!

OK, this is what I did tonight, and it is really strange. You go to the phone and type 713, then the number 8, because that corresponds to "U-V-W" if the button for "1" is "A-B-C."

So you get "7138" - only on my view of the Official Site, the 7 and the 1 both look like 7's. It clearly looks like the upside down word "BELL." I've tried this three times, and each time it looks like BELL instead of "BEIL," as it should.

Try it and tell me what you think it looks like. I hope I'm not hallucinating yet! I think it is a pun - the number rings a bell on the phone! Am I crazy now? Whizbang, pass me the antacids, please. :sad:

Dr Hesper

August 11th, 2004, 4:59 am

Dr. Hesper: You should make haste over to the threads: "Sirius and James - Not that Bad" and "Sirius: A Sociopath." You might find that alot of people feel exactly as you do about Sirius (including yours truly). As far as your opinion of my Beatles/Alice/Frank/HELP! theory, I'm stickin' to it! (But Sirius has definitely got problems!)We'll see. A couple have bit so far. I still think its gonna be killed or merged for lack of interest.

Anyway, Back to the Gum Wrappers which are the heart and soul of this thread. :evil: :tu: :angel:

I just had another encounter with 713V on the Official Site! Have you tried this?

For anyone who doesn't remember: the gum wrappers spell out 713 with the fallen ink pens forming a V on top of them. Look further back on this thread for a discussion of all that!i can understand this topic because JKR mentioned she'd hidden hints on her website about the books. Also I remember that 713V bit. Wasnt that 'V' supposed to point to something? Did we ever figure out what? :huh:

OK, this is what I did tonight, and it is really strange. You go to the phone and type 713, then the number 8, because that corresponds to "U-V-W" if the button for "1" is "A-B-C."

So you get "7138" - only on my view of the Official Site, the 7 and the 1 both look like 7's. It clearly looks like the upside down word "BELL." I've tried this three times, and each time it looks like BELL instead of "BEIL," as it should.

Try it and tell me what you think it looks like. I hope I'm not hallucinating yet! I think it is a pun - the number rings a bell on the phone! Am I crazy now? Whizbang, pass me the antacids, please. :sad:No, you arent crazy. It looks exactly like 'Bell' to me. Reminds me of the Bell Jar. Maybe thats a clue? I've felt that time travel will be a factor later. ;)

silver ink pot

August 11th, 2004, 5:07 am

No, you arent crazy. It looks exactly like 'Bell' to me. Reminds me of the Bell Jar. Maybe thats a clue? I've felt that time travel will be a factor later. ;)

I didn't even think of the Bell Jar! Good one!

Also, there is a scene in OotP in which Peeves is shooting ink pellets at Katie Bell over and over. There are alot of bell images in OotP, like the "gong" sound of Voldemort's shield. I've thought of making a list.

Dr Hesper

August 11th, 2004, 5:39 am

I didn't even think of the Bell Jar! Good one!

Also, there is a scene in OotP in which Peeves is shooting ink pellets at Katie Bell over and over. There are alot of bell images in OotP, like the "gong" sound of Voldemort's shield. I've thought of making a list.thats another good one! i forgot about Katie Bell. Who's her daddy? ;)

FluffieSnuffles

August 11th, 2004, 4:50 pm

Here is a picture of the phone with BELL written. To me it sort of looks like BEIL...but anyway, judge for yourself...

Gwenog Jones

August 12th, 2004, 6:11 am

For anyone who doesn't remember: the gum wrappers spell out 713 with the fallen ink pens forming a V on top of them. Look further back on this thread for a discussion of all that!
Ok, I don't know if anyone mentioned this earlier, but 713 is the vault number that held the Sorcerors/Philospher's stone in the first book.

whizbang121

August 12th, 2004, 6:46 am

Right. Where were we? sigh
Gum, and wrappers, and vault 713. It's all coming back to me.

:sigh: Been a tough couple of days in the gum thread.

Dr Hesper

August 12th, 2004, 7:25 am

Hey, I know we've had some questions on whether the Fidelius Charm could be placed on a person or not, but assuming it could, do you think it might be a good way for someone to try to rob the vault at Gringotts?

Also, if Peter Pettigrew is as good at disguise as he suggested to Voldemort, could he use this to move about at St. Mungos? Is there any connection between Peter and Bode? Could he have been the old wizard with the ear trumpet asking for Bode's room?

:)

furryfreakferret

August 12th, 2004, 12:08 pm

I'm confused, Doc. How are we connecting the Fidelus Charm to the break-in at Gringotts??

And, here's a question, can Pettigrew even transform anymore? I think Voldything was displaying a lack of foresight again when he gave him that silver hand. Either that, or there's a rat running along the sewage pipes dragging a massive hand which is far too heavy for him to carry.

Hm... the word on the phone looks like "BEIL" to me, too. But then, I'm only looking at the attatchment. It looks like a fun thing to go through and discuss though, so I'll hop on the bandwagon! I believe Katie still has one more year at Hogwarts, does she not? Very good catches, to both inky and Doc.

Which reminds me, I accept the full apology from both sides. :D Thank you!

Gwenog Jones

August 12th, 2004, 9:17 pm

And, here's a question, can Pettigrew even transform anymore? I think Voldything was displaying a lack of foresight again when he gave him that silver hand. Either that, or there's a rat running along the sewage pipes dragging a massive hand which is far too heavy for him to carry.
Hey, I never though of that! Maybe the silver hand will turn into a little, silver claw? :huh:

whizbang121

August 12th, 2004, 9:29 pm

Over at HP4GU, they're entertaining the thought that Peter's silver hand may play a part in the prophesy. Reminds me of the Hand of Glory that Harry discovered in Chamber. :eyebrows:
Why is Alice so much more improved than Frank. He seems completely out of it. :huh: And why was Neville given his father's wand. I don't get the impression it was a budget problem.

Hmmmmm..........

Gwenog Jones

August 12th, 2004, 9:38 pm

Why is Alice so much more improved than Frank. He seems completely out of it. And why was Neville given his father's wand. I don't get the impression it was a budget problem.
I don't know why Alice seems to be recovering better than Frank. Maybe Bellatrix tortured Frank for a longer period of time? :huh:

Perhaps the reason that Neville got his father's wand is because his father was so talented. His family thought he might be a Squib, and maybe they thought that his father's wand would help him a little.

codswallop

August 13th, 2004, 2:55 am

Originally Posted by whizbang121
Why is Alice so much more improved than Frank. He seems completely out of it. And why was Neville given his father's wand. I don't get the impression it was a budget problem.

I just thought it was more dramatic to have the mother interact with him because a child always has a special place with the mother, I did not think it was a commentary that Alice was better off, of course I could be wrong....

furryfreakferret

August 13th, 2004, 3:45 pm

filius

August 13th, 2004, 3:51 pm

I always thought that Neville got his father's wand because his father didn't need it anymore, because (furryfreakferret :agree: ) of family pride and because an Auror's is very powerful and since his parents are..well, you know...it's like something to remember him by.

Dedalus Diggle

August 13th, 2004, 4:13 pm

By the way, this discussion has led me to the conclusion that Granny Longbottom cannot be evil. The DEs must have known something of the Prophecy since LV had been looking for over a year for the boys who fit the description. If Alice and Frank had Neville with them, surely the DEs would have killed Neville if they were unsure whether LV was still alive. Therefore, he must have been with someone else, presumably, someone formidable, and to me that says Granny Longbottom. If so, then she protected him where his parents could not and kept him safe and healthy (well, physically - his self-esteem could have been better). Granny may be imperious and prickly, but she is not evil - tnat theory creates more problems than it solves, IMHO. If you don't agree, I'd love to hear where you think Neville was during the attack on his parents and how he was kept from major harm (other than possible memory spells, which may have been placed by friend or foe).

filius

August 13th, 2004, 4:18 pm

Gwenog Jones

August 13th, 2004, 7:14 pm

I agree with you, filius and dedalus. If Gran was evil, she would have done something to Neville by now. She is just very strict, not evil.

atherella

August 13th, 2004, 7:27 pm

morgiana

August 13th, 2004, 7:45 pm

It's possible Grandma is just a sweet old lady who loves Neville and is afraid of losing him. As for Mrs. L and the gum at Christmas it's possible she chews gum alot and just wants to share with Neville. She probably got him started on gum chewing when he was little. It reminds him of his mom and so he continues the association.

Perhaps LV will be trapped in a very large gum bubble and die from lack of air.

Kelfa21

August 13th, 2004, 7:53 pm

Also, if Gran was evil, if she suspected that the Longbottoms were improving in any way (as some people have speculated about Mrs. Longbottom, as it appears she is at least well enough to get up and walk around, and possibly even be sending messages to Neville via the gum wrappers, hence this thread) Gran would be in a perfect position to kill both the Longbottoms. We know she visits them with Neville, and who knows how often she visits without him. It wouldn't be that difficult to slip them a potion to kill them , or worsen there condition. I just don't see 'ol Granny as evil. Very stern and strict, and perhaps even a bit too harsh and critical of Neville, maybe, but evil, I just don't see that happening, IMHO.

I could never picture Gran as being evil in the sense that she wants to hurt Neville on Purpose...Gran had way too many opportunities over the years to cause real damage...especially if she lives alone over the summer with Neville. Besides, it would be very possible for her to damage the Longbottoms even more...
Look how easily Bode was silenced...she could have sent a Devil's Snare to the Longbottoms anonymously and have silenced at least one or both.

I think Gran generally does care for Neville...she sends him gifts to help him (remember the remembrall in SS?) and she looks out for him. She may not be entirely compasionate but she listens to Neville, she cares about his well being and Neville has learned alot from her.

Arithmancy

August 13th, 2004, 8:46 pm

Perhaps LV will be trapped in a very large gum bubble and die from lack of air.:tu: He almost did!!! In a duel with Dumbledore. The bubble was made out of water, though.

silver ink pot

August 13th, 2004, 10:04 pm

Well, codswallop's right, of course; we can't know for sure that Alice really has had a swifter recovery than Frank until we see him (which I hope we will, eventually). But it seems to be implied. And it could just be because Frank was tortured for a longer period of time; I believe Crouch Sr. mentioned in his son's trial that they attacked him first. But... assuming Alice has actually been chewing the gum or had contact with it in some way... do we know if Frank has? (Yes, I'm still clinging to the hope that the gum has brought on some sort of improvement. I'm the "eternal optimist.")

I like Gwenog's idea for why Neville was given his father's wand. I agree it doesn't appear to be a budget problem like it was for the Weasley's. But I somehow always assumed it just had to do with family pride. :shrug:

Furry: You are right. It is in GoF, when Harry looks at Dumbledore's memory in the Pensieve of Crouch Jr.'s sentencing. Crouch Sr. makes it sound as if they tortured Alice because Frank couldn't tell them where Voldemort was. That is so horrible to imagine. :upset: I've always wondered why the DE's didn't just finish them off? Maybe someone came to the rescue? Otherwise, the LeStrange's wouldn't have let the Longbottoms live. At any rate, Dumbledore tells Harry that whatever testimony the Longbottoms had about what happened to them didn't make enough sense to use in the trial.

Poor baby Neville! :upset:

Maybe Gran saved his life? I think she is more fierce than cruel to Neville. Her main sin is comparing him too much to his father, which is a theme of these books, and which we also see with Harry and Barty Crouch, Jr. I think Neville's Gran loves Frank and wants Neville to be the way he was, so the wand is sort of Neville's inheritance, just like Harry's cloak is all he has of James.

whizbang121

August 14th, 2004, 3:25 am

I like Gwenog's idea for why Neville was given his father's wand. I agree it doesn't appear to be a budget problem like it was for the Weasley's. But I somehow always assumed it just had to do with family pride. :shrug: Gwenog's theory about the wand does make sense.

So, whiz do you happen to have a link to this... HP4GU? It sounds like an interesting thread....Gwenog's theory about the wand does make sense.
HP4GU (Harry Potter for Grown Ups) is one of the oldest HP lists going. It's a yahoo.group.

Perhaps LV will be trapped in a very large gum bubble and die from lack of air. :lol: We can hope. ;)

Furry: You are right. It is in GoF, when Harry looks at Dumbledore's memory in the Pensieve of Crouch Jr.'s sentencing. Crouch Sr. makes it sound as if they tortured Alice because Frank couldn't tell them where Voldemort was. That is so horrible to imagine. :upset: I've always wondered why the DE's didn't just finish them off? Maybe someone came to the rescue? Otherwise, the LeStrange's wouldn't have let the Longbottoms live. At any rate, Dumbledore tells Harry that whatever testimony the Longbottoms had about what happened to them didn't make enough sense to use in the trial.

Poor baby Neville! :upset:

Maybe Gran saved his life? It's been suggested that it was Snape who saved the terrified Neville. I suspect he's been trying to slip Neville clues on how to help them in potions class. If only Snape had some "class." sigh

Good point about the wand being an inheritance from his father. :agree:

silver ink pot

August 14th, 2004, 6:12 am

It's been suggested that it was Snape who saved the terrified Neville. I suspect he's been trying to slip Neville clues on how to help them in potions class. If only Snape had some "class." sigh

I think I was probably the one who suggested it, lol. :p

If Snape turns out to be a traitor to Dumbledore, whizbang, you can pick up the nearest cauldron and pour the contents over my head. I don't think that will happen, though. :evil:

3SingMuggle

August 14th, 2004, 8:10 am

Azalea

August 15th, 2004, 12:51 am

Hi, I'm a newbie, and haven't had time to read ALL of the thread and its predecessor, but I had some thoughts I wanted to share. Perhaps someone else will add them to his or her thoughts and form an actual theory from it (as I am unable to do! :p )

First, my opinion on a couple of things: Gran is not evil; his mother does know who he is, but is unable to express herself; the gum wrappers are significant.

1. 713 = the number of wrappers she will give him/ has given him?
or
2. 713 (the vault) + "gold" in anagram -- what was it the Stone could do (aside from the immortal thing ;) )? Turn metal into gold, right? And she doesn't know it has been destroyed, I imagine.

3. I don't think the gum wrappers have notes from her or anything, I think he keeps them for sentimental reasons. He will find out their significance later.
Maybe it was a password or something similar at one point in her Order career; or maybe it has some kind of healing power, like how chocolate helps with Dementor encounters.
JK must love candy, or at least it plays a big role in the books -- people are always eating sweets, the frog cards, Dumbledore's passwords, the descriptions of the different candies (flavored beans, etc.), mention of different candies at diff times in the books.

4.A theory (not really related to gum wrappers): There is a portrait (that old woman one?) that told Neville's grandmother (via a second portrait?) what the new G. password would be after being told by the Fat Lady, which is why she had the uncle send him the mimbulus (as a way for him to remember it).

whizbang121

August 15th, 2004, 2:17 am

Snape couldn't have been the one to save Neville from the DE's. He was a turncoat back then, and if he took a stand against the people whose side he was pretending to be on, his cover would have been blown.
Someone would have had to save Neville from the Lestranges, unless he wasn't present at all. The rescuer couldn't have been Snape, though, because he is still a "double-agent" in OotP.Perhaps. though, Snape was with the DEs as one of them and pretending to be involved, when, in fact, he had alerted the Order and help arrived before any of the Longbottoms were killed. Neville is terrified of Snape and Snape does nothing to make feel any better. I'd rather have tea and muffins with Voldemort than Snape. No redeeming act that I can imagine will influence me to like him. But there are possibilities to consider and one of them is the potions that Snape makes the most fuss about. The shrinking potion was intersting and there have been others.
Anyway, I think if I saw Snape on the street, I'd probably AK him just because he was there. But I don't think JKR would. :huh:

furryfreakferret

August 16th, 2004, 1:17 am

whiz, you're sounding like James. "It's more the fact that he exists, if you know what I mean." Don't do that. I was ready to throw bricks at the two of them. Just thought I'd give you fair warning. ;) Though if we must have tea and muffins with an evil baddie, at least Lucius is rich. :lol:

I've always wondered why the DE's didn't just finish them off? Maybe someone came to the rescue? Otherwise, the LeStrange's wouldn't have let the Longbottoms live. ... Maybe Gran saved his life? I think she is more fierce than cruel to Neville. Her main sin is comparing him too much to his father, which is a theme of these books, and which we also see with Harry and Barty Crouch, Jr. I think Neville's Gran loves Frank and wants Neville to be the way he was, so the wand is sort of Neville's inheritance, just like Harry's cloak is all he has of James. Excellent post, inky. I hope you don't mind my shortening it for the purposes of quoting. I think you're right in saying that someone must have come along to help the Longbottoms. Who would have known about the plot? Sirius mentioned in GoF that the Lestranges had been part of Snape's crowd. He seems the obvious choice; he would have rejoined Dumbledore by this point. :lol: Wait! I seem to have been beaten to this point. My apologies, whiz and inky. You'll have to forgive me some shameless promoting now, I hope? You made a good point about him risking blowing his cover, 3SingMuggle, but I think it does work. Go check out my ficlet Beyond the Worst (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/1511451/1/). He'd just have to be careful, that's all, and he's proved he can do that. He'd be dead otherwise. Plus, I've always thought of him as a master of words. Oh and, inky, an excellent point about Gran, also.

Azalea, welcome in! No one's ever considered the 713 from the point of being the number of gum wrappers before. Nice one! Don't you love it when we run circles around the obvious? :lol:

HP4GU (Harry Potter for Grown Ups) is one of the oldest HP lists going. It's a yahoo.group. Is it "for adults" for a reason or should I go sign up?

Perhaps LV will be trapped in a very large gum bubble and die from lack of air. We did have something like this in version 1. Only in ours he floated away until a helicopter came along. Anyone else remember this one? I vaguely remember something about Voldie soup, too... or was it coffee grounds?

silver ink pot

August 16th, 2004, 2:12 am

Dumbledore says that Snape came over to the good side before the fall of Voldemort, turned spy at great personal risk, and is no more a death eater than he is - GoF, Chapter 30, page 390-391, American. Of course, you can probably find someone who will say that must mean that Dumbledore is a DE also. Anyway, Dumbledore might still have been using Snape to find out where the DE's were. They didn't know he was a spy until they were arrested and tried.

Whiz: Check out my new signature! Something for everyone - whether you love Snape, hate him, are indifferent to him, or think he deserves to be Avada Kedavraed and hung upside down. :evil: Better get used to him because she said today that we'd always see lots of him.

Azalea: Welcome to Chamber of Secrets! :welcome: New ideas are always fun - I like your theory about 713 gum wrappers. Is that enough to paper Neville's wall? We need lots of new theories - JKR didn't say a word about gum wrappers today! And none of those people in Edinburgh asked about them! :upset:

Thanks for the kind words, Furry! I think you are too young to go to an "adult forum," young lady! You have to stay here! :angel:

Arithmancy

August 16th, 2004, 2:28 am

Snape couldn't have been the one to save Neville from the DE's. He was a turncoat back then, and if he took a stand against the people whose side he was pretending to be on, his cover would have been blown.
Someone would have had to save Neville from the Lestranges, unless he wasn't present at all. The rescuer couldn't have been Snape, though, because he is still a "double-agent" in OotP.
Oh, but we do not know how Snape spies on DEs. If the theory about the LV's speech in GoF is true, and Snape is the one who "left forever", he is on the death list anyway. His cover was blown anyway at Karakoff's trial (or hearing, whatever). That might have occured even before Longbottoms torture.

There is something fishy about Snape's attitude to Neville. Neville is not a popular arrogant selebrity Gryffindor. There must be something personal.

Azalea

August 16th, 2004, 2:43 am

Silver Ink Pot: I suppose that would depend on how big the gum wrappers are, eh? ;)
Thanks for the welcome! :)

whizbang121

August 16th, 2004, 2:57 am

But why would Snape still be playing footsie with Luscious Malfoy? (You're right, Furry. He is rich. :eyebrows: )

And HP4GU isn't an adult site. :scared: It's a Harry Potter forum for grownups. Apparently, this means people like me who can't understand internet abbreviations most of the time. It's tedious to keep up with and very difficult to post on, being huge and very old. I only check in occasionally, but the only discussion I saw that may have been less than PG, (and I thought was entirely gratuitous :rolleyes: ) was the nature of Umbridge's fate with centaurs.:lol:

I'll try to get the address where they keep their favorite theories.

Arithmancy

August 16th, 2004, 3:11 am

But why would Snape still be playing footsie with Luscious Malfoy?
Now, that is the question... But in any case, Lucius must have known what went on during Karakoff's trial. He has connections in MoM = means and opportunity to find out; and he obviously would have had interest in information = motive.
There is something that keeps Lucius and Snape tight in spite of ideological differences...
(*must resist making shiping comments... must resist*) :D

whizbang121

August 16th, 2004, 3:48 am

Hope I don't get in trouble for this. Fantastic Posts and Where to Find Them (http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/)

click on Hypothetical Alley. The Magic Dishwasher is there, but I don't see Redhead Forever. But Redhead Forever is here in the guise of Ron =Dumbledore.
They are my favorites.

I sometimes wish we could organize something like Fantastical Posts and Hypothetical Alley. It's a good starting point for newbies to agree or disagree from. But "daunting" doesn't cover it. "Impossible" seemed closer to the mark.

silver ink pot

August 16th, 2004, 3:02 pm

Hey, ya'll: Did you see the Dart Board combination on JKR's Official site? 713!

Are we good or what? And look at all the crumpled gum wrappers! :evil:

http://www.romulus.plus.com/door.gif

whizbang121

August 16th, 2004, 3:28 pm

Is that what's supposed to be there? I open the door to blackness. Hmmmm.....

Arithmancy

August 16th, 2004, 3:33 pm

Hey, ya'll: Did you see the Dart Board combination on JKR's Official site? 713!

Are we good or what? And look at all the crumpled gum wrappers! :evil:

And a piece of paper on top of all the wrappers!!!!!! Didja see that?!!! :clap:

whizbang121

August 16th, 2004, 4:21 pm

tjrih

August 16th, 2004, 4:34 pm

Way to go on the #713 thing gummers. I do not recall a dartboard in the series. Maybe JKR has one in her study to kill time.

Danluver182

August 16th, 2004, 4:34 pm

I think Neville kept the GumWrappers because his mom gave them to him. Simple as that. It's the last thinig he has to hold on to with them. So he keeps them.

grrliz

August 16th, 2004, 4:43 pm

A secret entrance to a Gringott's atm behind a dartboard. :huh: Have we ever seen a dartboard in the books?Come to think of it, have we ever seen an ATM? :huh:

whizbang121

August 16th, 2004, 4:52 pm

I didn't spot one in the Hog's Head. Maybe the Leaky Cauldron? Whatever that's all about, it's connected to Gum Wrappers somehow.

Anyone get a dartboard for Christmas? The twins? A dartboard hiding access to Gringotts. Hmmmmmmm..........................:huh:

And the vault that Hagrid took the stone from now has a description of .... is it a man?

Did 713 belong to Dumbledore, Flamel or the School?

Gringotts -> gum wrappers -> GM -> 713 -> Sorcerer's Stone -> new description of ??? -> 302723 -> ???!!!

silver ink pot

August 16th, 2004, 5:34 pm

Are all the wrappers in the basket folded so that only the letters GM show? Doesn't the new character's last name start with M?

A secret entrance to a Gringott's atm behind a dartboard. :huh: Have we ever seen a dartboard in the books?

The new character's name is supposedly "McLagan," I think. Hmm. People are saying on the official website thread that the description is like Godric Gryffindor - what if his name is Godric McLagan? That has good alliteration, doesn't it, lol.

If his middle initial is "U" - then he would be "G. U. M."

Ohhhh - I've gone off the deep end now! :evil:

whizbang121

August 16th, 2004, 5:35 pm

Being shanghied. Don't have time to check, but wasn't there a dartboard in Dudley's second bedroom that Harry got in Bk one? I think? :D

silver ink pot

August 16th, 2004, 5:43 pm

Nope, Whizbang - there's no dartboard in Dudley's second bedroom. :sad:

dink

August 16th, 2004, 6:50 pm

Hello :)

I've been reading this very edifying thread, and staring at JKR's website for 15 minutes, and a thought popped up. Apologies if someone else has already suggested this.

Okay.

I think I'm totally buying into the conclusion that the gum wrappers on her desktop indicate "713", and I can see how the pens in the fallen mug might be a "V". And obviously it spells out "veil", which could be synonymous with death, vis Sirius. (was that a correct usage of "vis"? I've never used that word before! :D )

"V" could also stand for "Voldemort" and "vault", of course, which might explain why it was the letter that was singled out (as well as it being the only letter that doesn't translate neatly into a number...).

Also, JKR said over the weekend that we should be asking why Voldemort didn't die, and why Dumbledore didn't try to kill him when he had the chance. She also said that Voldemort had never loved anyone, and that this was a fairly important thing.

The goblins, as stated in the books, don't really have a particular liking for either side in the Death Eater/good guy war.

*takes deep breath*

Is it possible that Voldemort has tucked his soul away in a vault in Gringotts?

whizbang121

August 16th, 2004, 7:43 pm

In Dumbledore's vault? :huh:
Anything is possible.

grrliz

August 16th, 2004, 8:26 pm

Is it possible that Voldemort has tucked his soul away in a vault in Gringotts?Ha, that assumes that Voldemort has a soul :huh:

No, seriously, all these new theories in light of the dartboard / gringotts atm are great! :)

whizbang121

August 16th, 2004, 8:43 pm

Trouble is I can't find a dartboard. I think Voldemort life force is in Harry's scar and his consciousness survives as a parasite, now in a conjured body containing Harry's blood which allows him some access to his powers in Harry's scar. To me, the soul would be his consciousness, thoughts and memories. His life force would be the batteries he runs on. That's why he's been a parasite of one kind or another all these years. He possesses animals until he drains the life out of them and they die. In the ugly baby, he was living on the blood of unicorns[blood = life force) and nagini's venom. Now he lives in the conjured body, Flesh of Wormtail, bone of his father, and Harry's blood/life force. :huh:

Kind of obsessed with the dartboard. Must be one in these books somewhere, I hope. I've checked the Hog's Head and the Leaky Cauldron. The Three Broomsticks? (Wonder why three? :huh:)

For some reason, I thought Dudley had one, but I guess not. Hmmmm........... The tent they borrowed for the Quidditch cup?

tjrih

August 16th, 2004, 9:31 pm

Whiz, are you tired, my friend? You are rambling at this point! I sincerely hope that you find your dartboard so you can rest.

I do not think that there is any significance in the "Three" Broomsticks. Just a name dear.

Maybe the new character's name is Gavin Updike McLaggan. HAHAHA

whizbang121

August 17th, 2004, 12:22 am

:rotfl: Oh you of little faith. :rolleyes: You're new here, aren't you? ;)

dink

August 17th, 2004, 12:26 am

Ha, that assumes that Voldemort has a soul :huh:
Well, if he's taken his soul out and stashed it away in a vault at Gringotts (obviously not Dumbledore's vault, Whiz) then the Voldemort that we see in the stories certainly would appear to be soulless, wouldn't he?

Case closed, m'lud. :p

grrliz

August 17th, 2004, 1:30 am

I should have phrased that better: :)

"Ha, that assumes that Voldemort has a soul to begin with to stash somewhere."

He may act soulless thus far, but I can't see him getting more humane if he gets his soul back from Gringotts. :)

furryfreakferret

August 17th, 2004, 2:16 am

Congratulations, ink! How long did it take you? It only opened up today, didn't it? Although, I have to thank you for breaking in so I don't have to go to the library to do it. -feels special- There's a little switch or something beneath the dart board, does it do anything? And did you look in the mirror? It's the door to the Department of Mysteries! .... I think.... There's a spider web in the corner. "Follow the spiders." And, yeah, that appears to be everything of intrest. Apart from the gum wrappers and that crumpled bit of paper, of course.

I don't recall any dartboard anywhere in the series, but its worth looking into. -runs off to go help whiz look- She should have put Umbridge's face on the board....

The new character's name is supposedly "McLagan," I think. Hmm. People are saying on the official website thread that the description is like Godric Gryffindor - what if his name is Godric McLagan? That has good alliteration, doesn't it, lol. Actually, ink, it's McClaggan. I have the transcript open on the other window. :D

I think I'm totally buying into the conclusion that the gum wrappers on her desktop indicate "713", and I can see how the pens in the fallen mug might be a "V". And obviously it spells out "veil", which could be synonymous with death, vis Sirius. (was that a correct usage of "vis"? I've never used that word before! ) -stares- Well, first off, welcome in. Second, why didn't we see that?! Good catch. So... maybe the gum wrappers can somehow bring Sirius or some form of Sirius back again? Or have I just jumped from the Olympic highboard without knowing how to swim?

I think Voldemort life force is in Harry's scar and his consciousness survives as a parasite, now in a conjured body containing Harry's blood which allows him some access to his powers in Harry's scar. To me, the soul would be his consciousness, thoughts and memories. His life force would be the batteries he runs on. That's why he's been a parasite of one kind or another all these years. He possesses animals until he drains the life out of them and they die. In the ugly baby, he was living on the blood of unicorns[blood = life force) and nagini's venom. Now he lives in the conjured body, Flesh of Wormtail, bone of his father, and Harry's blood/life force. You know... I really kind of like that idea. It would explain a lot. Good job.

Is it possible that Voldemort has tucked his soul away in a vault in Gringotts? :scared: Although, you know, whiz might be on to something. Hiding in the open, you know? Dumbledore's vault would be the last place Dumbledore would look, so hide it there. But then... maybe that's why Dumbledore didn't try to kill him...? Maybe he knows Voldemort's soulless and therefore can't be killed? But.... I have now succeeded in confusing myself. Maybe Dumbeldore captured his soul and hid it in his vault at Gringotts and Harry's got to return to Voldemort so he can be killed? Could I come up with a more roundabout plan??

whizbang121

August 17th, 2004, 5:23 am

Come to think of it, have we ever seen an ATM? :huh::rotfl: You win. :lol:

The new character's name is supposedly "McLagan," I think. Hmm. People are saying on the official website thread that the description is like Godric Gryffindor - what if his name is Godric McLagan? That has good alliteration, doesn't it, lol.

If his middle initial is "U" - then he would be "G. U. M."

Ohhhh - I've gone off the deep end now! :evil:Antacid? Good thing we can swim. ;)

Well, if he's taken his soul out and stashed it away in a vault at Gringotts (obviously not Dumbledore's vault, Whiz) then the Voldemort that we see in the stories certainly would appear to be soulless, wouldn't he?

Case closed, m'lud. :pIt's definiely a tough one, dink. I'm not sure where the split takes place in Voldemort's being, but it's clear he is not in a state that can be defined as "alive," because of the prophesy.

You were with us in the old prophecy threads when we pounded out the ideas that became the Power and a Future theory. In fact, you single handedly worked out how Harry used the power transferred from Voldemort to foil his plan in the Prisoner of Azkaban. I was stumped. But it was something that had happened in the past. Appropriate for the subject of that book.

I was scanning through the old prophecy thread (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=18280) today. Last fall was really an amazing time to be in CoS.

Dr Hesper

August 17th, 2004, 7:51 am

Hey, ya'll: Did you see the Dart Board combination on JKR's Official site? 713!

Are we good or what? And look at all the crumpled gum wrappers! :evil:
Wow! That really is interesting for a number of reasons! Here's (http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=1176333&postcount=183) the only reference to darts I know of. Wonder if JKR is reading our thread? (Trying to remember what I’ve said lately…) Hope they have a sense of humor. :rotfl: Seriously, maybe the dart board is her little joke that all any of us are doing are tossing darts. But the gum wrappers and crumpled paper are of interest. Should we be taking another look at one of her discarded chapters she posted at her site? Are there gum references in any of those? I cant read any of them because my monitor (or maybe my poor eyesight) cant make out the words.

I've always wondered why the DE's didn't just finish them off? Maybe someone came to the rescue? Otherwise, the LeStrange's wouldn't have let the Longbottoms live. ... Maybe Gran saved his life?Yeah, I wondered this too. Maybe the DE’s think the Longbotoms may have more information? Maybe they didn’t actually mean to destroy their minds. They just went too far trying to glean evey last bit of whatever info they were looking for?

Is 713 gum wrappers enough to paper a wall? Probably not…not yet anyway. But it might be enough to form a message. I like the 713 pertaining to the vault idea best so far. :clap:

Oh, but we do not know how Snape spies on DEs. If the theory about the LV's speech in GoF is true, and Snape is the one who "left forever", he is on the death list anyway. His cover was blown anyway at Karakoff's trial (or hearing, whatever). That might have occured even before Longbottoms torture.

There is something fishy about Snape's attitude to Neville. Neville is not a popular arrogant selebrity Gryffindor. There must be something personal.I agree. We don’t know how he was spying back then and wonder if he may have had to save Neville and this blew his cover? I’d love to know more about their past. :)

Also, JKR said over the weekend that we should be asking why Voldemort didn't die, and why Dumbledore didn't try to kill him when he had the chance. She also said that Voldemort had never loved anyone, and that this was a fairly important thing.Hmm…doesn’t the Prophesy say why? I don’t think Dumbledore can kill Voldemort if the prophesy is true can he?

The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies...and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not...and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives...the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies...

Doesn’t this mean that only the one born at the end of the 7th month (July) has the power to defeat Voldemort? That’s Harry isn’t it? I’m not sure but DD probably hasn’t tried to kill him because he knows the futility of trying. :) I do wonder though why the Death Eaters left / keep the Longbottoms alive.

Is it possible that Voldemort has tucked his soul away in a vault in Gringotts?I don’t know. I like the idea though! I do think that vault has something to do with this. It appeared to be empty (save for that one little item that Hagrid took). But was it really empty? Could that vault be kind of like that room in Hogwarts that appears as whatever you want it to look like? (Maybe its full of bubblegum)!

silver ink pot

August 17th, 2004, 8:52 am

Dr. Hesper: HeeHee - yes, I remember your dartboard remark now! I don't think I found it too pleasant at the time, lol. :p We hit the 713 clue correctly, so who's to say our Beatles research is so far from the mark?

Furry: Thank you - I was in a hurry and didn't check the transcript yesterday. McLaggan - with two "G's"! I'll remember that for future anagram research. :eyebrows:

I spent so much time on this Forum yesterday it was absurd.

Wouldn't it be something if the description today was Frank Longbottom? That just popped into my head - he is a character we haven't seen before, and he was probably in Gryffindor!

My first thought was that it might be Mr. Lovegood - and the clue is Luna's Lion Hat. That would be ironic, a man who looks like a lion - Leo/Sun - with a daughter named Luna - Moon.

Dr Hesper

August 17th, 2004, 9:50 am

Dr. Hesper: HeeHee - yes, I remember your dartboard remark now! I don't think I found it too pleasant at the time, lol. :p We hit the 713 clue correctly, so who's to say our Beatles research is so far from the mark?
*chuckle* I never meant to offend. But i must confess that the Beatles thread is just so far over my head I cant make the connections. Oh well. :blush:

As for 713...I've always felt that it was important as soon as you guys mentioned it. Especially when someone started talking about that empty vault...which brings me full circle again to this Fidelius charm I know some are tired of reading about. :eyebrows:

Would that vault truly be empty? Could a Fidelius Charm be placed on its contents? Or maybe some other spell that prevents people from seeing the contents? I just found it weird that JKR would make a point of letting us see into the vault and showing us that, except for that one little package, the vault appeared to be empty. I dont see the logic in that. Why do that at all if it wasnt important? Why not just have Hagrid with the package already in his pocket if we werent supposed to see into the vault? He could easily have mentioned it to Harry and the plot for the first book wouldn't have been hurt at all.

Did we find out who actually broke into the vault? If the person wasnt a secret keeper, he'd have been out of luck wouldnt he? :rotfl: Personally I suspect it was an "inside job" since Hagrid made a point of telling us about all the protective magics surrounding the vaults and Gringotts. Now who do we know who might have connections with the Goblins? ;)

I'm glad you guys captured a pic of what was inside that door at JKR's website because when I went there, the door opened but the room was dark and I couldnt see anything. I dont know how to get the light to come on. The light switch beside the door didnt help. Is this all by design? Why let the door open but reveal nothing today? Why not just lock the door again? Does it refer to blindness, or have i just not found the way to turn on the light inside? (Maybe JKR just hates me now). :upset: :rotfl: Thats ok...I'll still buy her books. Too far into this mystery to give up now eh wot?

Hmm...JKR said we should be asking why the killing curse that rebounded on him...didnt actually kill him. Would the victim have to actually see this spell for it to work? We remember that the gaze of the Basilisk affected those who didnt meet the eyes of the monster, but would have killed those who did look into it's eyes. Hermione was petrified looking into a small mirror reflection of the basilisk. Now JKR asks us why this spell (which rebounded) didnt kill Voldemort. The unspoken part is that while it didnt kill him, just like the Basilisk attack in book2, the spell did harm him. Would there have been a reason Voldemort might not have been able to see it?

To me, a spell which rebounds when cast implies that it hit a mirror. We've seen mirrors in the books and mirrors on JKR's website. There is a mirror beside that door on her website. (Hmm...could that image be revealing to us that it is what the inside of the Potter's cottage looked like? Maybe there was a mirror beside their door too!). Hagrid asked Harry in Book 1 if he'd ever done things he couldnt explain (like making that glass disappear causing Dudly to fall into the snake's display). We've also seen that during times of storng emotional distress Harry has accidentally caused glasses to shatter and people to swell up. JKR did say that Harry didnt see his parents die because he was in his crib. However, he probably was awakened by the screaming. This, combined with a strange man appearing over his crib, most likely would cause unusual stress. Any chance that, just as the killing curse was cast, Harry accidentally caused a mirror to come between them? Perhaps the only part of the spell to hit harry merely glanced off his forehead? :clap: And (like any truly good mystery writer) Jo would have been playing fair too by showing us the mirror on her website and how they can be used vs spells and basilisk attacks. (Yet another old gamer trick from years of experience). :rotfl:

Behind the door were the gum wrappers and a crumpled piece of paper. One can usually see themselves in a mirror, but not these and not now. As a matter of fact, the mirrors we've seen didnt actually reveal the viewer's own image, but rather what they most desired.

Right now, I'd like to see where all those gum wrappers are coming from.

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

whizbang121

August 17th, 2004, 3:11 pm

My first thought was that it might be Mr. Lovegood - and the clue is Luna's Lion Hat. That would be ironic, a man who looks like a lion - Leo/Sun - with a daughter named Luna - Moon.
Ooooooooooo..........
SIP, you are brilliant! I bet it is!

Nicole

August 17th, 2004, 3:56 pm

JKR chews a lot of gum (started when she quit smoking). It makes sense for her to want to use them as a clue or red herring.
Hogwarts Vault 713 is used to store one thing, just like the one now on JKR's site.

dink

August 17th, 2004, 4:12 pm

You were with us in the old prophecy threads when we pounded out the ideas that became the Power and a Future theory. In fact, you single handedly worked out how Harry used the power transferred from Voldemort to foil his plan in the Prisoner of Azkaban.
Did I? :D I can't remember that at all. :blush:
Hmm...JKR said we should be asking why the killing curse that rebounded on him...didnt actually kill him. Would the victim have to actually see this spell for it to work? We remember that the gaze of the Basilisk affected those who didnt meet the eyes of the monster, but would have killed those who did look into it's eyes. Hermione was petrified looking into a small mirror reflection of the basilisk. Now JKR asks us why this spell (which rebounded) didnt kill Voldemort. The unspoken part is that while it didnt kill him, just like the Basilisk attack in book2, the spell did harm him. Would there have been a reason Voldemort might not have been able to see it?

To me, a spell which rebounds when cast implies that it hit a mirror.
:lol: I'm sorry, but the first answer I came up with after reading this was that little baby Harry must have been wearing his glasses when Voldemort attacked...
I don’t think Dumbledore can kill Voldemort if the prophesy is true can he?

"The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies...and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not...and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives...the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies..."

Doesn’t this mean that only the one born at the end of the 7th month (July) has the power to defeat Voldemort? That’s Harry isn’t it? I’m not sure but DD probably hasn’t tried to kill him because he knows the futility of trying.
To me it seems to say that Voldemort can only be completely destroyed by Harry (and the reverse must be true too, I suppose - I wonder if Harry realises his own invincibility now?) but I also think that this leaves a bit of leeway for partial destruction. I don't see any reason why Dumbledore couldn't just whip him out of his body again, if he wanted to. Voldemort has, in a sense, been 'alive' ever since that curse rebounded. It would have been prudent of Dumbledore, I would've thought, to seize the opportunity to weaken Voldemort once more.

I think there's more to Dumbledore's apparent mercy/stupidity than merely the words of the prophecy. :)
I do wonder though why the Death Eaters left / keep the Longbottoms alive.
I thought Bellatrix and gang were caught in the act, before they had a chance to kill the Longbottoms outright.

Nicole

August 17th, 2004, 4:24 pm

Was knowing that a body could live without a soul an important clue? It seems to confirm that Voldemort does have his soul with him--it contains his personality and memories (Barty, Jr. lost his soul which contained his personality and memories to the dementor). So it must be that Voldemort's soul (aka spirit) was what went on after his body was lost/destroyed.

grrliz

August 17th, 2004, 6:10 pm

Hmm?doesn?t the Prophesy say why? I don?t think Dumbledore can kill Voldemort if the prophesy is true can he?

The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies...and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not...and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives...the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies...

Doesn't this mean that only the one born at the end of the 7th month (July) has the power to defeat Voldemort? That's Harry isn't it? I?m not sure but DD probably hasn?t tried to kill him because he knows the futility of trying. :) I do wonder though why the Death Eaters left / keep the Longbottoms alive.Hmm... What if Dumbledore's birthday is July 31? Of course, the other part of the prohpecy is that it is the child of parents who had thrice defied Dumbledore, and while I know wizards have longer lives tham muggles, I can't see Dumbledore's parents being close to 200 years old and thrice defying Voldything. Then again, Dumbledore is the only wizard Voldything ever feared, right? And the only wizard that Voldemort needs to fear is the one with the power vanquish him, right? We can argue that Dumbledore was not chosen by Voldemort through the act of marking him... but what if he did choose and mark him? Doesn't Dumbledore have a large scar on his knee? We don't know how long he's had it or how he got it.

The other thing is that we know when Trewlawney made the prophecy, but we don't know whether or not she made it about past or future births. We assume it was a future birth, since a prophecy is a prediction of the future, but I think if we look more carefully we can interpret it that the vanquishing of the Dark Lord would be the part that would occur in the future. The Vanquisher, the one born at the end of July to thrice-defying parents, could have already been born. Until the prophecy was made, Voldemort could have thought he was invincible, since he thought no one could Vanquish him.

{I'm so making all this up, I like theories that don't make any sense and can easily be refuted. Plus, if there were any merit to this theory, it would go in it's own thread.}

Would that vault truly be empty? Could a Fidelius Charm be placed on its contents? Or maybe some other spell that prevents people from seeing the contents? I just found it weird that JKR would make a point of letting us see into the vault and showing us that, except for that one little package, the vault appeared to be empty. I dont see the logic in that. Why do that at all if it wasnt important? Why not just have Hagrid with the package already in his pocket if we werent supposed to see into the vault? He could easily have mentioned it to Harry and the plot for the first book wouldn't have been hurt at all.

Did we find out who actually broke into the vault? If the person wasnt a secret keeper, he'd have been out of luck wouldnt he? :rotfl: Personally I suspect it was an "inside job" since Hagrid made a point of telling us about all the protective magics surrounding the vaults and Gringotts. Now who do we know who might have connections with the Goblins? ;)If your theory that the contents of the vault are under the Fidelius Charm, then the robber could have still seen the vault itself in order to break into it (we won't get into the mechanics of breaking into a Gringotts vault, we know it's hard to do, but let's assume it can be done) just not anything that was inside. The Philosopher's Stone was obviously not under the Fidelius Charm since Harry could see it, but that strikes me as odd considering that seems to be the most important thing in there (so far). Regardless, I think it definitely makes sense that Dumbledore would keep the contents of his / the school's vault under the Fidelius Charm as another layer of defence against break-in.

I've digressed enough. Back to Neville and the gum. :)

Azalea

August 17th, 2004, 7:54 pm

This thread seems to be taking a lot of twists and turns, so I'll comment on some of it before I forget it all --

Maybe the password to the vault is "Drooble's Best Blowing Gum." We know that D'dore likes to use that kind of thing as his password (the password being what is used to tell the goblins that you are the rightful owner of the vault, like a PIN at ATMs. That could be what was on the piece of paper Hagrid handed the goblin in P/SS).

I think you guys are on the right track as far as the reflection thing goes (I especially like baby Harry wearing his glasses :D), but remember that it is "why didn't he die?" not "why did it rebound?" We've been told it rebounded because of the mother-love protection (although there may be more we don't know about that). So I think it more likely that he didn't die because, as with the Basilisk, Voldmort was "saved" because when the spell rebounded, it hit a mirror instead of him somehow (like what Hermione did). Don't ask me the mechanics of this, though! Someone more physics oriented would need to do that.

The description (should we be using spoiler code? I'm not sure how to do spoilers on this board, so I'll do this):
*SPOILER BELOW*

I think it describes the Heir of Gryffindor. Maybe "McClaggen Gryffindor?" I think that he is the Half-Blood Prince.

And you guys probably already talked about this somewhere, but I think it's interesting that Harry's zodiac sign is Leo. :eyebrows:

Dedalus Diggle

August 17th, 2004, 9:24 pm

Did we find out who actually broke into the vault? If the person wasnt a secret keeper, he'd have been out of luck wouldnt he? :rotfl: Personally I suspect it was an "inside job" since Hagrid made a point of telling us about all the protective magics surrounding the vaults and Gringotts. Now who do we know who might have connections with the Goblins? ;)
Who broke in? - I believe in C/S Harry notes that Quirrell was at Diagon Alley the same day that he was, which is also the day the vault was broken into. The conclusion he drew, and I see no reason to think otherwise, is that Q did it with guidance by LV.
Connections with the goblins? - if that is a real question, then I'll say that I've long thought Bill's connections with the goblins would be important. Obviously old goblin-crusher won't be very welcome at goblin tea parties.

OrbitingElle

August 17th, 2004, 9:45 pm

(Sorry if this has been done before)

1. JKRowling.com's door opens to the room of requirement. (someone in the official site thread has a screen shot of the "blueprint" for the dartboard)

+

2. There are gum wrappers inside the safe, which is inside the room of requirement.

=

3. This is very good evidence that the gum wrappers will be important. The room of requirement only gives you things you need.

Does this connection make sense to others? I have been following this theory about the wrappers being important for a while now, and this sealed the deal for me.

atherella

August 17th, 2004, 10:06 pm

Who broke in? - I believe in C/S Harry notes that Quirrell was at Diagon Alley the same day that he was, which is also the day the vault was broken into. The conclusion he drew, and I see no reason to think otherwise, is that Q did it with guidance by LV.

Quirrell actually does admit it to Harry that it was he who broke into the vault. He doesn't however say how he did so.

American hardcover edition page 291
"He does not forgive mistakes easily. When I failed to steal the stone from Gringotts, he was most displeased. He punished me... decided he would have to keep a closer watch on me..."

Hope that helped clear that up for you. :)

Mad Alces

August 17th, 2004, 10:28 pm

Wouldn't it be something if the description today was Frank Longbottom? That just popped into my head - he is a character we haven't seen before, and he was probably in Gryffindor!

I really thin this is a good thought,

I think the discarded paper below the vault is the paper from wich the clue were torn. Note that it is lying amomg gum wrappers. And I'm ready to bet alot that everything behind that door is there because it's important.

Gum wrappers = Nevilles mom, Clue = Nevilles dad!

whizbang121

August 18th, 2004, 1:20 am

Maybe the password to the vault is "Drooble's Best Blowing Gum." We know that D'dore likes to use that kind of thing as his password (the password being what is used to tell the goblins that you are the rightful owner of the vault, like a PIN at ATMs. That could be what was on the piece of paper Hagrid handed the goblin in P/SS).
That is a really good thought. :huh: Hmmmmm........ I wonder if we can connect the 302723 to the gum, too?
And you guys probably already talked about this somewhere, but I think it's interesting that Harry's zodiac sign is Leo. :eyebrows: Harry is the sun, and it's all about time. ;)

I really thin this is a good thought,

I think the discarded paper below the vault is the paper from wich the clue were torn. Note that it is lying amomg gum wrappers. And I'm ready to bet alot that everything behind that door is there because it's important.

Gum wrappers = Nevilles mom, Clue = Nevilles dad!
This makes sense, too.
Is there a description of the Longbottoms in OotP? Maybe at he prefect party, when Moody showed Harry the photograph.

Azalea

August 18th, 2004, 1:42 am

furryfreakferret

August 18th, 2004, 2:33 am

Seriously, maybe the dart board is her little joke that all any of us are doing are tossing darts. But the gum wrappers and crumpled paper are of interest. Yes, I wondered that too. And the fact that the gum wrappers are right beneath them! I nearly screamed!

Though, giving it thought, I wondered if it's not reffering to how Harry has to defeat Voldemort. I think, given what we saw in OotP -- the fact that Harry can't preform Unforgivable Curses and such -- the only thing that can really throw things in his favor is something ridiculously rash like tracking Voldemort down, getting the element of surprise on his side. And when he was shouting at Hermione and Ron, Harry mentioned himself that he just blundered through it all, threw darts, you know?

Should we be taking another look at one of her discarded chapters she posted at her site? Are there gum references in any of those? I cant read any of them because my monitor (or maybe my poor eyesight) cant make out the words. No, no. I can't remember anything of gum wrappers in any of it. She didn't get too into specifics. I'll go take a second look though. (Did I mention I figured out how to get on the website from my computer? :clap: ) She mentions that old drafts go in a cardboard box with notes, electricity bills, and chewing gum wrappers, but that's the only mention.

Doesn’t this mean that only the one born at the end of the 7th month (July) has the power to defeat Voldemort? That’s Harry isn’t it? I’m not sure but DD probably hasn’t tried to kill him because he knows the futility of trying. That's what I thought at first. But then, why is it such an important question for us to be asking ourselves? I think there must be more to it and I think the second question (why Voldemort didn't die) is very closely linked to it. I wonder too about that information about him being incapable of love. He must have loved at some point! He was human once, I know he must have been!

To me it seems to say that Voldemort can only be completely destroyed by Harry (and the reverse must be true too, I suppose - I wonder if Harry realises his own invincibility now?) but I also think that this leaves a bit of leeway for partial destruction. I don't see any reason why Dumbledore couldn't just whip him out of his body again, if he wanted to. Voldemort has, in a sense, been 'alive' ever since that curse rebounded. It would have been prudent of Dumbledore, I would've thought, to seize the opportunity to weaken Voldemort once more. Do you remember, though, when Harry showed Dumbledore the cut on his arm from Wormtail's dagger that a flash of triumph showed in the headmaster's eyes? I think that'll become very important. I think his new body makes him weaker than he was even as spirit, though he obviously doesn't realize this.

Anyway, guys, I suppose that's all out of me for a while. Goodnight!

Aoweil

August 18th, 2004, 2:59 am

302723 -- Can a word be made from the keypad letters (like the code for the MOM?)
3 = DEF
0 = OPER (operator, maybe it's just an O)
2 = ABC
7 = PQRS
2 = ABC
3 = DEF

And then of course whatever letters are the right ones will be an anagram, not something in the right order! Well, maybe not, if we're lucky, but I can't get anything meaningful out of it.

One thing that I saw right away was if you take the first letter in each row of letters, you get DOA (dead on arrival), PAD (as in Padfoot). However, wouldn't it seem rather insensitive of JKR to do that intentionally.?

I tried something with the numbers. You know how you can use numbers to spell out words on calculators? I tried that with these numbers and didn't see anything...

Edit: I had another thought. I didn't see that this was mentioned all ready, so forgive me if someone all ready posted this and I missed it, or if I am stating something that was really obvious to everyone else.

The number 302723 came from a business card for Gobe Lyn (Goblin). This number lead us to (among other things) more stashed gum wrappers. This could be more evidence of the goblins-gum-St.Mungo's-Neville connection. Now, if there is any mention of a dartboard in St. Mungo's...

whizbang121

August 18th, 2004, 3:14 am

That's what I thought at first. But then, why is it such an important question for us to be asking ourselves? Could " ... either must die at the hand of the other ... " mean something different? Could it mean that if someone else kills either of them some disaster will follow? I'm wondering if Dumbledore had killed Harry in the MoM, would Voldemort, who was possessing Harry at the time, have survived with Harry's body, sending Harry to the "worse things than death" state? Does Harry have to use the same kind of will he showed in the graveyard with the wands, to move through the connection in the scar and possess Voldemort's body in order to survive?

Hmmmmm.......
:huh:Do you remember, though, when Harry showed Dumbledore the cut on his arm from Wormtail's dagger that a flash of triumph showed in the headmaster's eyes? I think that'll become very important. I think his new body makes him weaker than he was even as spirit, though he obviously doesn't realize this. Interesting. Or maybe Dumbledore knows something about all the spells involved to see that Harry is on the right track to defeating Voldemort.

ComicBookWorm

August 18th, 2004, 6:24 am

Mad Alces

August 18th, 2004, 11:19 am

Do you remember, though, when Harry showed Dumbledore the cut on his arm from Wormtail's dagger that a flash of triumph showed in the headmaster's eyes? I think that'll become very important. I think his new body makes him weaker than he was even as spirit, though he obviously doesn't realize this.

I think it means that Voldemort got some bit of Harry transfered to him. Think about what happened when Harry got his scar, instead Voldemort this time got something from Harry. This something might help Harry defeat Voldemort and I think that's what the flash of triumf was all about.

In the photo at the party i OoTP Alice is described as very similar to Neville. Frank on the other hand is only mentioned by name. I still think the clue is about Frank Longbottom, although i haven't found any more evidence than the pile of gum wrappers and a discarded paper.

I will not stop looking though!

Dr Hesper

August 18th, 2004, 2:23 pm

Hmm... What if Dumbledore's birthday is July 31? Not sure when his birthday is but we know from book 5 (CH 37) that Harry and DD talk about the Prophesy. He tells Harry plainly that Harry there is no doubt the prophesy is referring to Harry. It didn’t necessarily have to at first, but might have been Neville, but since Voldemort marked Harry as an equal, it makes Harry the object of the prophesy. :)

If your theory that the contents of the vault are under the Fidelius Charm, then the robber could have still seen the vault itself in order to break into it (we won't get into the mechanics of breaking into a Gringotts vault, we know it's hard to do, but let's assume it can be done) just not anything that was inside. The Philosopher's Stone was obviously not under the Fidelius Charm since Harry could see it, but that strikes me as odd considering that seems to be the most important thing in there (so far). Regardless, I think it definitely makes sense that Dumbledore would keep the contents of his / the school's vault under the Fidelius Charm as another layer of defence against break-in.I agree with all of that. I do wonder why something as important as the Philosopher’s Stone would have not been hidden by the charm and so there probably is no Fidelius charm in that vault after all. But why an empty vault? I would think there would be tons of groovy stuff they’d want to put in there. Is it that they didn’t think the Vault would be safe? Then why put the stone in there in the first place? I dunno.
I'm sorry, but the first answer I came up with after reading this was that little baby Harry must have been wearing his glasses when Voldemort attacked...You know…that ain’t half bad! Did you post this on the new thread located here? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=23956) Of course, Voldemort has attacked Harry with his wand since that day, so apparently he’s not afraid of Harry’s glasses. I dunno.

Who broke in? - I believe in C/S Harry notes that Quirrell was at Diagon Alley the same day that he was, which is also the day the vault was broken into. The conclusion he drew, and I see no reason to think otherwise, is that Q did it with guidance by LV.
Connections with the goblins? - if that is a real question, then I'll say that I've long thought Bill's connections with the goblins would be important. Obviously old goblin-crusher won't be very welcome at goblin tea parties.I see others have confirmed that Quirrel broke into Gringotts. I had forgotten that. Bill? Bill Weasley? Hmm…I’m afraid you’ll have to refresh my memory here. :)

1. JKRowling.com's door opens to the room of requirement. (someone in the official site thread has a screen shot of the "blueprint" for the dartboard)
2. There are gum wrappers inside the safe, which is inside the room of requirement.
3. This is very good evidence that the gum wrappers will be important. The room of requirement only gives you things you need.

Does this connection make sense to others? I have been following this theory about the wrappers being important for a while now, and this sealed the deal for me.Yep. I hadn’t thought about it being a reference to the room of requirement, but that’s pretty good. I do think the gum wrappers are important. :)
And when he was shouting at Hermione and Ron, Harry mentioned himself that he just blundered through it all, threw darts, you know?Oooo…gee, and here I was ready to take credit for the dart board. How vain of me. ROFL! :rotfl: Glad you mentioned that though because it might help us connect the dots along the way. :)
That's what I thought at first. But then, why is it such an important question for us to be asking ourselves? I think there must be more to it and I think the second question (why Voldemort didn't die) is very closely linked to it. I wonder too about that information about him being incapable of love. He must have loved at some point! He was human once, I know he must have been!I think (and I could be wrong) that on her websight in the interview, Jo was specifically asked if Voldemort / Tom Riddle had ever loved and she said ‘no’.
Do you remember, though, when Harry showed Dumbledore the cut on his arm from Wormtail's dagger that a flash of triumph showed in the headmaster's eyes? I think that'll become very important. I think his new body makes him weaker than he was even as spirit, though he obviously doesn't realize this.I truly believe it is important. I’m inclined to think that DD knows that whatever is in Harry is now in Voldemort. DD specifically tells Harry(in book 5).

“But I knew too, where Voldemort was weak. And so I made my decision. You would be protected by an ancient magic of which he knows, which he despises, and which he has always, therefore, underestimated — to his cost. I am speaking, of course, of the fact that your mother died to save you. She gave you a lingering protection he never expected, a protection that flows in your veins to this very day. I put my trust, therefore, in your mother’s blood. I delivered you to her sister, her only remaining relative.”

This magic which he knows of, which he despises and which he has always underestimated is now in his own blood and flesh. If it is love that is in the blood, then Voldemort may now begin to show sings of limited compassion. This (in the case of Peter Pettigrew) may cause him to allow Pettigrew to live when he should be killed. This might be his undoing, for Peter may have a role to play in how this all ends. He may save Harry somehow, or may grievously injure Voldemort at some point. (What does that silver arm do?)

He also says: “He shed her blood but it lives on in you and her sister. Her blood became your refuge. Your aunt knows this and I explained what I had done the letter I left, with you, on her doorstep”. This tells me that the blood is important and the answers are in that letter. The crumpled paper on Jo’s website might possibly refer to that letter. Are there other references to that letter or its contents? :huh:

The number 302723 came from a business card for Gobe Lyn (Goblin). This number lead us to (among other things) more stashed gum wrappers. This could be more evidence of the goblins-gum-St.Mungo's-Neville connection. Now, if there is any mention of a dartboard in St. Mungo's...I’m glad you mentioned this. I didn’t know where the number came from. How does it lead us to more stashed gum wrappers? :)

Aoweil

August 18th, 2004, 2:59 pm

I’m glad you mentioned this. I didn’t know where the number came from. How does it lead us to more stashed gum wrappers? :)

:blush: After I read that, I went back to JKR's site to check and realized that I made a mistake. The gum wrappers are actually outside of the safe. Bah. I'm sorry about that...

Dedalus Diggle

August 18th, 2004, 4:05 pm

I see others have confirmed that Quirrel broke into Gringotts. I had forgotten that. Bill? Bill Weasley? Hmm…I’m afraid you’ll have to refresh my memory here. :)
Bill works for the goblins as a curse-breaker for Gringott's in its excavations in Egypt. The source of the code number for JKR's vault - the business card of 'Gobb Lynn' - reinforces for me the notion that the goblins will have a major role in book 6 or 7, perhaps both.

whizbang121

August 18th, 2004, 4:18 pm

Bill is the source of the code? Hmmmm.....
Potter's Keys pointed me in this direction..

On the extra stuff page of JKR's website, there's a half hidden business card in the upper right corner. When Peeves goes by the card is revealed to be for
Gobb Lynn
Security Specialists
Suppliers of Vaults and (I couldn't read this one)
Telephone: 30 27 23

atherella

August 18th, 2004, 4:50 pm

302723 -- Can a word be made from the keypad letters (like the code for the MOM?)
3 = DEF
0 = OPER (operator, maybe it's just an O)
2 = ABC
7 = PQRS
2 = ABC
3 = DEF

And then of course whatever letters are the right ones will be an anagram, not something in the right order! Well, maybe not, if we're lucky, but I can't get anything meaningful out of it.

I found one of those handy webpages that does the work for you. http://www.phonespell.org/ There's the link if anyone wants to give it a shot. These are what the page came up with.

30-brad 30-brae 30-a-pad 30-a-sad 30-as-ad 30-as-be

We found these seven-letter mnemonics by adding an extra digit to the end

30-Brady 30-arced 30-braes 30-craft 30-a-pads 30-a-raft 30-a-safe

Interesting that it comes up with "A SAFE". As far as significance, I have no brilliant mind flashes to help out, but I know you all have brilliant minds and maybe will think up some significance. :D

Dr Hesper

August 18th, 2004, 5:34 pm

Bill works for the goblins as a curse-breaker for Gringott's in its excavations in Egypt. The source of the code number for JKR's vault - the business card of 'Gobb Lynn' - reinforces for me the notion that the goblins will have a major role in book 6 or 7, perhaps both.Oh yeeeaaahh....I forgot. I was thinking he was an achaeologist (but wait...thats my story). Oops! :rotfl:

Yeah, that business card seems to be a hint eh? See? Its all the Goblins' fault! :rotfl:

whizbang121

August 18th, 2004, 7:44 pm

Hasn't Bill been working in England for the duration of OotP? Somebody has to help Fleur with her English. But I think he's got desk job now, still at Gringotts.

Azalea

August 18th, 2004, 7:48 pm

Thanks, atherella! I like the "a safe" one! In fact, using the 30 as the letters on a phone, you could get FOR A SAFE (3=deF, 0=OpeR, etc.). It seems kind of far-fetched, but it does sound like one of those phone numbers where it's 1-800-BUY-CUPS or something. Is it a clue? Maybe not, but it's fun playing around with it! :)

Dr. Hesper, you have made me see the light! Of course! "The blood of the enemy!" He now has that in his veins! So we'll see where that leads, but I absolutely think it will play a part. Now V'mort has that mother-love-family protection thing in his veins. VERY interesting!!

Maybe that has made him vulnerable to be killed now. Maybe he didn't die before because as Hagrid said, he had too little human in him to be killed. Well, through his putting Harry's special love-blood in his veins, he's got some vulnerability. Also, I like the idea that he'll now have more feelings because of it, although I don't remember anything like that in OOtP.

whizbang121

August 18th, 2004, 7:53 pm

Between Lily's blood bond and Wormtails life debt, Voldemort should be heading into renal shutdown any time. Notice, there's nothing of his mother in this concoction. Is he still the heir of Slytherin?

Nicole

August 18th, 2004, 8:11 pm

Does it matter anymore? The basilisk is dead.

Really good point about the Slytherin part, though. Think he got some back in Harry's blood?

Dedalus Diggle

August 18th, 2004, 8:21 pm

Does it matter anymore? The basilisk is dead.

Really good point about the Slytherin part, though. Think he got some back in Harry's blood?
Sure the basilisk is dead, but who knows what else is down there which only Parselmouths can command? Or other objects elsewhere that Slytherin may have left behind (maybe a chastity belt that could only be opened by someone singing Barry White songs in parseltongue :rotfl:).

there's a whole lot to wonder about concerning what LV got in Harry's blood - mother's love, his own essence, basilisk venom, Skelegro, phoenix tears, raging teen hormones. He was really taking a risk with all that.

whizbang121

August 18th, 2004, 8:41 pm

Sure the basilisk is dead, but who knows what else is down there which only Parselmouths can command? Or other objects elsewhere that Slytherin may have left behind (maybe a chastity belt that could only be opened by someone singing Barry White songs in parseltongue :rotfl:). :rotfl: My kids want to know what I'm so hysterical about. :lol:

there's a whole lot to wonder about concerning what LV got in Harry's blood - mother's love, his own essence, basilisk venom, Skelegro, phoenix tears, raging teen hormones. He was really taking a risk with all that.
Good Point. Kidney failure might be the least of his worries. But I wondering about his no longer being associated with Slytherin. In CoS, Tom Riddle said he was more interested in Harry than he was in Slytherin's noble work. Has he abandoned the pureblood supremacy altogether? And why his muggle father? What did he intend to get from TR,Sr?

ComicBookWorm

August 18th, 2004, 9:42 pm

I don't think that he would have used his father's bones if he had known where his mother's were.

I also think that the blood from Lily will have a corrosive effect on Voldemort over time. He thought it would strengthen him, but I think it will weaken him since the protection was her sacrifice for Harry.

silver ink pot

August 19th, 2004, 6:12 am

there's a whole lot to wonder about concerning what LV got in Harry's blood - mother's love, his own essence, basilisk venom, Skelegro, phoenix tears, raging teen hormones. He was really taking a risk with all that.

:rotfl: And gum. Please don't forget the gum!

We must start a new thread called "What is in Voldemort's blood" so Whizbang can continue her Fantastic Voyage through Voldemort's Kidneys. :evil:

Meanwhile - What about Neville and the gum? :huh:

ComicBookWorm

August 19th, 2004, 6:38 am

:rotfl: And gum. Please don't forget the gum!

We must start a new thread called "What is in Voldemort's blood" so Whizbang can continue her Fantastic Voyage through Voldemort's Kidneys. :evil:

Meanwhile - What about Neville and the gum? :huh:
Gum, please lets talk about gum. I really don't want to picture Voldemort's innards.:wow:

Azalea

August 19th, 2004, 6:41 pm

I wonder if Bellatrix told Mrs. Longbottom (what's her first name?) something while she was Cruceatous-ing (sp?) her, some secret having to do with the wrappers or the gum or something. Who makes the gum (and don't say "Drooble!" :p)? I forget - does it have special properties when you chew it, or is it just really big bubbles?

Wait a minute, maybe Drooble does have something to do with it. :huh: :eyebrows:

whizbang121

August 19th, 2004, 9:24 pm

Well, there's this (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=20830). ;)

Nicole

August 19th, 2004, 10:39 pm

The first reference to gum is in Book 1 where it is mentioned along with licorice wands, pumpkin pasties, cauldron cakes, Bertie Bott's beans, and chocolate frogs. We do not see Harry chew the gum and blow those bubbles that can last for days in that scene, although we see his reaction to the beans and frogs. Maybe to help with the gum riddle we need to scour the other four books for hints (and not just focus on the one scene with Neville's mum). I know there is another scene somewhere when the boys fill either their dorm or the Griffindor common room with those bubbles...

furryfreakferret

August 20th, 2004, 2:23 am

This tells me that the blood is important and the answers are in that letter. The crumpled paper on Jo’s website might possibly refer to that letter. Are there other references to that letter or its contents? And here we are pointing to odd theories! Love it, Doc! But it makes me want it to open even more.

After I read that, I went back to JKR's site to check and realized that I made a mistake. The gum wrappers are actually outside of the safe. Bah. I'm sorry about that... Even so, I've never heard of any goblin identification card. I really must go look on the site tonight. It's wonderful. It really ties all our theories together. Goblins Were Sold Tomb Bug lives on!

Maybe that has made him vulnerable to be killed now. Maybe he didn't die before because as Hagrid said, he had too little human in him to be killed. Well, through his putting Harry's special love-blood in his veins, he's got some vulnerability. Oh wow! And together the two of you brought it to my mind. So that explains the look of triumph. Don't you love that feeling of we-just-solved-a-mystery? :D

Well, maybe... maybe... maybe Voldemort used his father's bones because... is there anything any of us would want from his father? The spell was an old bit of Dark Magic though. Maybe it specifically called for the bone of the father? Anyway. :blush: Yes. Bubbles....

Anyway, I'm going to go browse the website now for the Gobb Lynn id card.

whizbang121

August 31st, 2004, 2:46 am

Trouble is I can't find a dartboard. ...

...Kind of obsessed with the dartboard. Must be one in these books somewhere, I hope. I've checked the Hog's Head and the Leaky Cauldron. The Three Broomsticks? (Wonder why three? :huh:)

For some reason, I thought Dudley had one, but I guess not. Hmmmm........... The tent they borrowed for the Quidditch cup?

I found the dartboard!

Arithmancy

August 31st, 2004, 2:55 am

Where?!

Aoweil

August 31st, 2004, 2:56 am

Whiz, that's great! Where was it?

(I'm getting flashbacks of looking at the "Where's Waldo" books. "You found him? Really? Ooooh, where?" :lol:)

whizbang121

August 31st, 2004, 3:06 am

Sorry it took me so long. I'm on the old clunk with dial up because it has a better photo editor.

This is the opening scene of PoA, where Harry is playing with his wand under the covers. Look directly over his pillow. It's right over his head! It's clearer in the movie and I could see the darts in it.

Aoweil

August 31st, 2004, 3:10 am

:wow: You must have some eagle eyes :wow:

Nice work :tu:

tjrih

August 31st, 2004, 3:11 am

Whiz, did you take a video camera with you to the movie? HAHA

BUSTED!!!!!!

whizbang121

August 31st, 2004, 3:54 am

Looks that way doesn't it. But it wasn't me. Honest. :D
I saw the movie again tonight and spotted it, so I went looking for screencaps.

So now, is there a connection from Harry's room to Gringott's? Maybe this needs to go into the Beneath the Surface (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=28545&page=1&pp=30) thread.

Gwenog Jones

September 1st, 2004, 5:02 am

Nice catch, Whiz!

Hmm.. Harry's room connected to Gringotts? I don't know about that one. His room used to be Dudley's second bedroom. Maybe something is hidden behind that dartboard, something that will be revealed about Dudley or maybe Petunia?

silver ink pot

September 1st, 2004, 6:28 pm

:rotfl: Whizbang! I'm so glad you found that dartboard! You must have noticed it subliminally when watching the movie the first time! Was their one in the Leaky Cauldron, too? Fascinating. I was thinking JKR might update more of her Official Site now that we are in September - I hope so. More stuff to talk about.

Here is my little tidbit of the day, and I don't know if this is too far out or not.

I was watching the movie "Grease" with my kids the other night, and realized that the character "Frenchy" - who is just about my favorite character, and a member of the girl's gang "The Pink Ladies" - has hair that changes color in every scene, from pink to blonde and back. In one scene, it is definitely bubblegum pink, just like Tonks! Also, Frenchy has an exaggerated accent that reminds me of Tonks - she's just funny.

Here is the connection to this thread - while her hair is "shocking" pink, she is sitting in the dark diner dreaming about a guardian angel to help her, and Frankie Avalon comes down from heaven to sing "Beauty School Drop-Out" to her. At one point, she is looking up at him and she blows this enormous bubble!

Then I sort of chuckled to myself about Frankie Avalon's name - Frank, as in Longbottom, and Avalon, as in the ancient name for Glastonbury, UK:

http://www.isleofavalon.co.uk/

Glastonbury sits on a former island in the Somerset Levels - the Isle of Avalon. It's a lively town today, with rich historic traditions.

It was once a megalithic centre and later a Druid college. Its Abbey became a famous pilgrimage place in medieval times.

Today it's a unique, atmospheric town of 9,000 people. It hosts a famous contemporary arts festival and lots of other events. People visit from the world over, pulled by a certain special something...

Glastonbury is overlooked by the Tor, a majestic, anomalous, sacred hill, owned by the King of the Fairies or the National Trust, or both, depending on your viewpoint!

Legend has it that Joseph of Arimathaea built the very first Christian church here, Arthur and Guinevere were buried here, and it has been home to Saints Patrick, Dunstan, David and Bridget.

That may be stretching it, but there are other things in the movie that remind me of the books. For instance, John Travolta and Olivia Newton-John fly away in a car at the end. There's the song "Greased Lightnin," there's the whole "school" theme with the gangs.

Someone once wrote that "Grease" should be Snape's biography, lol.

I just thought I would share my thoughts, since it seemed too funny. "Frenchy" is a funny name anyway, and JKR did go to school in France . . . :eyebrows: .

atherella

September 1st, 2004, 8:39 pm

:rotfl: Whizbang! I'm so glad you found that dartboard! You must have noticed it subliminally when watching the movie the first time! Was their one in the Leaky Cauldron, too? Fascinating. I was thinking JKR might update more of her Official Site now that we are in September - I hope so. More stuff to talk about.

Here is my little tidbit of the day, and I don't know if this is too far out or not.

I was watching the movie "Grease" with my kids the other night, and realized that the character "Frenchy" - who is just about my favorite character, and a member of the girl's gang "The Pink Ladies" - has hair that changes color in every scene, from pink to blonde and back. In one scene, it is definitely bubblegum pink, just like Tonks! Also, Frenchy has an exaggerated accent that reminds me of Tonks - she's just funny.

Here is the connection to this thread - while her hair is "shocking" pink, she is sitting in the dark diner dreaming about a guardian angel to help her, and Frankie Avalon comes down from heaven to sing "Beauty School Drop-Out" to her. At one point, she is looking up at him and she blows this enormous bubble!

Then I sort of chuckled to myself about Frankie Avalon's name - Frank, as in Longbottom, and Avalon, as in the ancient name for Glastonbury, UK:

http://www.isleofavalon.co.uk/

That may be stretching it, but there are other things in the movie that remind me of the books. For instance, John Travolta and Olivia Newton-John fly away in a car at the end. There's the song "Greased Lightnin," there's the whole "school" theme with the gangs.

Someone once wrote that "Grease" should be Snape's biography, lol.

I just thought I would share my thoughts, since it seemed too funny. "Frenchy" is a funny name anyway, and JKR did go to school in France . . . :eyebrows: .

Wow, that was fascinating. Grease has always been one of my all time favorite movies. As a kid, my friends and I used to act it out. I still know all the words to every song by heart (er, ok, I think I know the movie by heart too. :wow:)

Funny thing is, when I first read OotP and read about Tonk's shockingly bright pink hair - beauty school dropout was my first thought and I started humming it, much to the annoyance of my DH. :D

whizbang121

September 1st, 2004, 8:45 pm

tell me more, tell me more <giggle>

I've never seen the movie, but I've been dragged off to high school productions. I love it. (I just heard that Phantom of the Opera has been filmed. Wonder what took so long?)

I seem remember a discussion about maps and the underground somewhere, that I think included Glastonbury. I can't find it now.

furryfreakferret

September 1st, 2004, 9:57 pm

Hmm... So... Tonks' "guardian angel" is Frank Longbottom? I haven't seen the movie either, or at least not in my memory, though I too have been dragged to various productions. -giggles thinking of Tonks in beauty school- They wouldn't know what hit them!

whizbang121

September 2nd, 2004, 12:17 am

And Frenchy was a gum chewer. Remember when we were trying figure out who might be chewing the all the gum and one idea was as teenage girl.
Well, it's true, the same symbols are used repeatedly. I don't know if Frankie Avalon had any clue the significance of his stage name, but we get it. :agree:

So, 713, the number of Dumbledore's Gringotts vault, moves the dartboard and reveals the Gringotts ATM that opens with the telephone number 30 27 23 and contains the description of a graceful leonine character with a slight limp. Even the trash is interesting.

And there's a dartboard over Harry's headboard at 4 Privet.

:whistle: Now what? :lol:

Gwenog Jones

September 2nd, 2004, 3:54 am

Maybe a gum chewing teenage girl will accidentally knock down the dartboard in Harry's room, revealing behind it a safe that holds the key to Voldemort's defeat!!

Hey, it could happen! :lol:

I really feel like we wll be seeing a dartboard soon though. JKR did say that Cuaron did put in some hints in the 3rd movie that would be clues to the next book. Maybe this is one? JKR wouldn't put anything unsignificant on her site, so why would she use a dartboard?

silver ink pot

September 2nd, 2004, 6:11 am

Wow, that was fascinating. Grease has always been one of my all time favorite movies. As a kid, my friends and I used to act it out. I still know all the words to every song by heart (er, ok, I think I know the movie by heart too. :wow:)

Funny thing is, when I first read OotP and read about Tonk's shockingly bright pink hair - beauty school dropout was my first thought and I started humming it, much to the annoyance of my DH. :D

That movie came out when I was in High School - I'm about the same age as JKR, so I'm sure she knows it well. I don't know how many times my friends and I saw it back then - ALOT!

Here is Frenchy blowing a bubble, and Olivia Newton-John trying to burst it!

http://www.bubblesite.com/bubblesite/Women/Professional%20Stuff/Periodicals/Didi_Conn.jpg

Frenchy with pink hair being serenaded by Frankie Avalon:

http://www.greasemovie.com/of_photos/of04_2_5383.jpg

Dr Hesper

September 2nd, 2004, 5:23 pm

Here is the connection to this thread - while her hair is "shocking" pink, she is sitting in the dark diner dreaming about a guardian angel to help her, and Frankie Avalon comes down from heaven to sing "Beauty School Drop-Out" to her. At one point, she is looking up at him and she blows this enormous bubble!

Then I sort of chuckled to myself about Frankie Avalon's name - Frank, as in Longbottom, and Avalon, as in the ancient name for Glastonbury, UK: What an interesting way to connect this to the thread! Good job! I like that film too…and particularly that song that goes “You’re the one that I want…” (that’s the only words I know). :rotfl: Wish I’d seen the play though. (I actually had the soundtrack on 8-track). *Cringing* :whistle: :blush:

I wonder if we could find some Glastonbury/Avalon/Arthurian imagery that could help us? Glastonbury is supposed to have underground chambers or tunnels I think.

Re: The Dartboard. You guys did a terrific job finding it. I have to take your word for it though as my monitor cant quite make out the image. (Or maybe it’s just my eyesight. I had to get glasses on Tuesday. This, after having 20/10 vision in the Navy.)

Is the dartboard connected in some manner to Gringotts? I’m mystified as to how but that would be cool if it was! I’d feel at least somewhat justified that we are on the right track. I wonder if maybe the image at Jo’s websight (the dartboard, the wrappers and the crumpled paper) are not actually connected to one another, but rather represent individual significant clues.

The numbers thing has me baffled. Perhaps it is just my rather poor memory, but I can’t remember what some of the numbers represent. I know 713 is Gringotts and #4 refers to Privet Drive. #12 should refer to Grimmauld place (I think). Do all the numbers represent locations in the books? In Jo’s image of the dartboard, there are numbers on it. I had tried looking to see if any of the holes made by darts represented any pattern, but I cant determine anything yet.

Tane

September 11th, 2004, 7:41 pm

Mimbulus related to memory? (from an online Latin dictionary)
'Mimbulus' doesn't mean anything in Latin, but there are many similar words, mostly having to do with memory and mimicry ('mimulus' is a little mime; 'memoria' is the Latin source for 'memory'). I think Rowling also intended the word to sound like 'remember.'That is interesting perhaps Neville’s uncle who gave him the plant was trying to improve Neville’s memory and maybe that is a possible affect of the plant, to enhance memory gain.

silver ink pot

September 12th, 2004, 1:20 am

Tane: In Book 1, before Hagrid comes to get Harry and the Dursleys are being bombarded with letters and owls, Vernon whispers, "Mimblewhimble" at one point - very close to "Mimbulis." No one really knows what the means, though!

I'm always looking around at musical ideas for Whizbang's "Sgt Potter" thread in the Common Room, and I kept coming across the phrase "Bubblegum Music." I thought I knew what that was - just "pop" music with no real substance (as opposed to "serious" artists like the Beatles). But there really was a sort of "bubblegum era" during the 60's, and there is even an album of the greatest hits. What is interesting is the name of one of the songs on the album. Some of them are really about . . . "bubblegum."

http://www.bestprices.com/cgi-bin/vlink/030206613223BT

25 All-Time Greatest Bubblegum Hits Music CD

The album contains this song, which isn't too interesting except for the title.

"Alice Long (You're Still My Favorite Girlfriend) - Tommy Boyce/Bobby Hart
Lyrics at this link:
http://home.att.net/~bubblegumusic/songalicelong.htm

History of Bubblegum Music

http://home.xnet.com/~reja/life/bubblegum/whatisbgm.html

In the late 1960s, two musical entrepeneurs -- Jerry Kasenetz and Jeff Katz, under the ageis of Buddah Records -- developed a specific type of music. Short, quick, and incredibly catchy, it was aimed at a dual market: AM airplay and 45 rpm record buyers. Because of the light, fluffy content, it was called "Bubblegum music" -- aka "Teenybopper music" and "Feel Good music".
Kasenetz and Katz quickly reviewed the Buddah Records stable, searching for someone who could express their vision (and increase their profits). They came up with Joey Levine, a nasal-voiced vocalist who could play, write, and sing lead or background. The multitalented Levine went on to pen and sing many of the Bubblegum classics, such as Ohio Express' Chewy Chewy and Yummy Yummy Yummy.

Most of the Buddah bubblegum songs were sung by one of a handful of staff singers, accompanied by the impressively creative stable musicians. The songs were kept to two and a half minutes for AM airplay, and were recorded as mono singles. Later, giving in to fan demand, a few LPs were put together by the "bands". "Road bands" -- which often failed to contain even a single member of the musicians who recorded the hit singles -- made brief touring careers to satisfy the public's need to see the faces behind the sounds.

. . . Looking back, Bubblegum music seemed to represent a fork in the road of American pop culture. In the late 1960s, the country was at a cultural crossroad, which was mirrored in the music of the times. On one hand was the light, cheerful, fun sound of Bubblegum, played on AM radio; on the other was the dark, brooding, introspective songs a la Dylan, Hendrix, and Jagger, played on the new "underground" FM rock stations. Bubblegum only required youth's pocket change, while rock required their souls.

Another interesting song about a girl who is going insane: By: 1910 Fruitgum Co.
Bubble Gum World

(F. Marcus)
1968 Lyrics:

http://home.att.net/~bubblegumusic/songbubworld.htm

You think you're in a bubblegum world
Playing in sandboxes too
I just thought to tell you girl
You're too old to think it's true

You should know by now girl (girl!)
You're too old to play games (yeh!)
It is getting to the point
You're going a little insane

You think you're Miss Muffet
And I'm the spider coming after you
All the time you're playing games
And all the time you're being so untrue

You should learn by now girl (yeh!)
That there's a time to stop (stop!)
Put all your toys away
And close up your candy shop

You should know by now girl (girl!)
You're too old to play games (yeh!)
It is getting to the point
You're going a little insane

You think you're in a bubblegum world
Playing in sandboxes too
I just like to tell you girl
You're too old to think it's true

You should know by now girl (girl!)
You're too old to play games (yeh!)
It is getting to the point
You're going a little insane

Another group was called Captain Groovy and His Bubblegum Army - pictures

http://groups.msn.com/PSPOT/gumpoppackage1.msnw

http://pmoru.free.fr/us3.html

http://www.bagley5.freeserve.co.uk/index.htm

I haven't been able to find any lyrics at all from Captain Groovy, but I did find "Captain Scarlet" who was part of a TV show, I think, that was shown in Great Britain. If you collected all 66 wrappers, you could send them to the company and get a poster.

Welcome to Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons Bubble Gum Cards Web Site.

http://www.bagley5.freeserve.co.uk/index.htm

This site details the collectable Captain Scarlet cards that were issued in Britain in the late 1960's by Anglo Confectionery.

I can't remember how many cards were in each pack but I do remember that you got a small thin square of pink bubble gum with each set. There were a total of 66 cards to collect.

On one side of the card was a cartoon or screenshot from the Gerry Anderson TV series, on the other side was a jigsaw piece from a poster. By collecting all 66 cards you could make up the big picture.

If you collected enough outer wrappers and sent them to Anglo Confectionery you received the full sized 53cm X 70cm poster.

I am lucky enough to have 2 of these posters (I think one is my elder brother's) I am currently missing cards no. 1,13,19,24,35,36,38,43,47, & 48.

Captain Scarlet Bubblegum Wrapper:
http://www.bagley5.freeserve.co.uk/wrapper.htm

Poster created by 66 cards:
http://www.bagley5.freeserve.co.uk/poster.htm

Wasn't there an auror in OotP at the MOM who wore a scarlet robe? Harry sees him when he is there for his hearing with Mr. Weasley. Of course, Dumbledore has a scarlet quill on his desk (next to his silver ink pot, lol :p ).

Nicole

September 12th, 2004, 1:32 am

Yes, there was an auror in red robes, I believe his name is Williamson (first name unknown). He had his feet up on the desk when we first "saw" him (and he had no name associated with him), later he is the auror who tells Fudge that he saw Voldemort and has the name Williamson. [Am.HC, p.131, pp.816-17] He has a long pony-tail like Bill Weasley....

whizbang121

September 12th, 2004, 1:44 am

Hey! I think I saw Lorne Green in the space station.Lorne (http://www.bonanza1.com/benbook.jpg)

So basically bubblegum music is ..... immature? Or maybe "innocent" is a better word.

Dagmar

September 12th, 2004, 3:19 am

Hey! I think I saw Lorne Green in the space station.[url=http://www.bonanza1.com/benbook.jpgLorne[/url]

So basically bubblegum music is ..... immature? Or maybe "innocent" is a better word.
Whiz, I couldn't get the Lorne Green photo to come up.
Bubblegum music just chews me up and then spits me out. :evil:

whizbang121

September 12th, 2004, 3:24 am

Oops! I forgot one lousy bracket and ......

Are we in Xanadu? With Kubla Khan? I love it!

Hey! Isn't that another Olvia Newton John movie?

Masterfroggy

September 12th, 2004, 3:44 am

Oops! I forgot one lousy bracket and ......

Are we in Xanadu? With Kubla Khan? I love it!

Hey! Isn't that another Olvia Newton John movie?

It’s funny you should mention Xanadu (not sure if the should be here or Beneath the surface,) but here we have yet another mention in mythology of a magical underground caverns and rivers

the river Alph

In Greek mythology, its waters were said to pass under the sea and to emerge at Syracuse (Italy) in the fountain of Arethusa. Hercules, to clean the stables of Augeas, turned the Alpheus through them. It is the river Alph of Coleridge's poem Kubla Khan.

In Xanadu did Kubla Khan
A stately pleasure-dome decree :
Where Alph, the sacred river, ran
Through caverns measureless to man
Down to a sunless sea.

silver ink pot

September 12th, 2004, 4:43 am

Master Froggy: I take it that you just saw my post on the Alchemy thread about Kubla Khan and the River Alph? If you didn't, then we have a weird coincidence here!

I must say, bubblegum is immature and most of it is just fluff. I was intrigued by that song title, "Alice Long (you are my favorite girlfriend) by Boyce and Hart. They are the song writers who wrote most of the Monkees hits, I believe. I just couldn't believe there was a whole "genre" of bubble gum songs.

I thought it was interesting to read about collecting 66 gum wrappers to "earn" a poster. I don't remember anything like that in the United States.

And I did think about Olivia Newton-John and Xanadu, lol. :p Perhaps there is an entire "Grease/Xanadu" theme running through the books, lol. :evil: There is also that song "Magic" - it's sort of like Lily speaking to Harry:

MAGIC
Olivia Newton-John
(John Farrar)

Come take my hand
You should know me
I've always been in your mind
You know that I'll be kind
I'll be guiding you

Building your dream
Has to start now
There's no other road to take
You won't make a mistake
I'll be guiding you

You have to believe we are magic
Nothin' can stand in our way
You have to believe we are magic
Don't let your aim ever stray
And if all your hopes survive
Your destiny will arrive
I'll bring all your dreams alive
For you

From where I stand
You are home free
The planets align so rare
There's promise in the air
And I'm guiding you

Through every turn I'll be near you
I'll come anytime you call
I'll catch you when you fall
I'll be guiding you

You have to believe we are magic
Nothin' can stand in our way
You have to believe we are magic
Don't let your aim ever stray
And if all your hopes survive
Your destiny will arrive
I'll bring all your dreams alive
For you

Masterfroggy

September 12th, 2004, 7:20 pm

Master Froggy: I take it that you just saw my post on the Alchemy thread about Kubla Khan and the River Alph? If you didn't, then we have a weird coincidence here!

Sorry SIP, but I don't think I have every been to the Alchemy thread, what we have here I think is a weird coincidence, :scared: I saw the Ref to Xanadu and remembered the poam by Coleridge, and just made the connection to the underground river Alph

silver ink pot

September 12th, 2004, 7:30 pm

Master Froggy! That is weird! :wow:

I started reading Coleridge the other day because of some research I was doing for the Alchemy thread. There was a reference to "Aleph," the Hebrew letter "A," and that led to "Alpha," and then "Alph," which is really the River Alpheus. I was saying somewhere that the entire poem of Kubla Khan reminded me Chamber of Secrets, because it talks about "Caverns measureless to man" being beneath a castle, or "pleasure dome," and the descriptions of the towers and forests remind me of Hogwarts. Sirius Black also has the Uncle Alphard.

whizbang121

September 12th, 2004, 7:55 pm

:blush: That was me messing up with a time turner. I had Alchemy and Gum both open and posted the Alchemy reply about Xanadu in the wrong thread. :D I'm really slipping.

But I would love to take that poem apart. Maybe beneath the surface would be the safest (on topic) thread. As soon as I get back from grocery shopping. :rolleyes:

SIP, I can hum that tune, but I don't think I ever knew the words. Wow!

The magic is all around us. :agree:

Masterfroggy

September 12th, 2004, 8:11 pm

There are quite a few links (however tenuous )

Then reached the caverns measureless to man,
And sank in tumult to a lifeless ocean :
And 'mid this tumult Kubla heard from far

Ancestral voices prophesying war !

A damsel with a dulcimer
In a vision once I saw :
It was an Abyssinian maid,
And on her dulcimer she played,
Singing of Mount Abora.
Could I revive within me
Her symphony and song,

Abyssinia is another name for Ethiopia. Mount Abora, like Alph, is a name that Coleridge created. However, several have noted its similarity to Mount Amara in Milton's Paradise Lost. This mountain is real and is situated in Ethiopia

Abyssinian Shrivelfig, was one of the ingredients in the Shrinking solution

A strange fact has just popped into my head

Algie (Neville’s uncle ) is a diminutive of Algernon. Wasn’t there an Algernon / Augustus Rookwood, and wasn’t he a deatheater :

silver ink pot

September 12th, 2004, 8:17 pm

whizbang121

September 12th, 2004, 8:25 pm

where did the mimbulus come from?

Masterfroggy

September 12th, 2004, 8:43 pm

Master Froggy: I'm ready to start a new thread on Coleridge - or you can! I really have a feeling that poem is a source for The Chamber of Secrets! Do you want to? And should we do all of Coleridge or just that poem?

We could call it "Caverns Measureless to Man" or "Xanadu and the Chamber of Secrets," or something clever, lol. :p

How about: "Ancestral Voices: Kubla Khan and the CoS"

And yes, about Algie, Algernon, and Augustus: On some thread, it came up that in the British Version, the name is "Algernon Rookwood," but in the American version is is "Augustus Rookwood." :huh: I have no idea why???? It may have come up earlier on this thread, talking about Neville and his uncle.

I'll let you start the thread but Coleridge is rich in HP reference, there must be some link to the chamber of secrets (I’ll eat my hat if there isn’t) (Whiz can I borrow some chocolate hats Just in case)

where did the mimbulus come from?

Harry stared at the thing. It was pulsating slightly, giving it the rather sinister look of some diseased internal organ.
'It's really, really rare,' said Neville, beaming. 'I don't know if there's one in the greenhouse at Hogwarts, even. I can't wait to show it to Professor Sprout. My Great Uncle Algie got it for me in Assyria. I'm going to see if I can breed from it.'
Harry knew that Neville's favourite subject was Herbology but for the life of him he could not see what he would want with this stunted little plant.

Assyria a democratic state in Bet-Nahren, Assyria (northern Iraq, northwestern Iran, southeastern Turkey and Syria.)

well done Whiz :tu:

whizbang121

September 12th, 2004, 11:48 pm

I did something right? Wow. That's unusual, lately. :sigh:

Well, while I was out not grocery shopping because the car died, did someone open a thread for Kubla Khan?

silver ink pot

September 13th, 2004, 6:40 am

Yes, I'm about to open a thread "Kubla Khan, Coleridge, and The Chamber of Secrets."

I want to include Coleridge himself as part of the background research because he was born in "Ottery St. Mary" and his first book of poems was called "Sibylline Leaves." Isn't that amazing?

I'm starting it right now.

whizbang121

September 13th, 2004, 1:52 pm

Kubla Khan, Coleridge, and the Chamber of Secrets (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=34866)

whizbang121

September 17th, 2004, 7:05 am

Beautiful People,

The Bluebell bubbles have been found, though they didn't fill the room. The trophy room that is. Follow the directions here. (http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=1324721&postcount=551)

ComicBookWorm

September 17th, 2004, 7:15 am

whizbang121

September 17th, 2004, 7:26 am

ComicBookWorm

September 17th, 2004, 7:32 am

I wish it was mine. But furryfreakferret :clap: gets all the credit for this one. It's been one of those goldmines of research that gets all the brain chemicals swooshing around happily. Add chocolate, and it's positively exhilirating! :agree: Thanks for the help at the site. I never find that stuff unless someone is pointing it all out to me. The picture of Nick is a surprise. He looks like Jack Sparrow! <giggle>
I have so much trouble typing that I wanted to make it as easy as possible for others that followed. I like seeing the extra content, but I get infuriated by all the clicking and searching that needs to be done to find it. I guess the younger types enjoy it more. And maybe people with normal hands.

haggard

September 17th, 2004, 11:52 am

What if the gum and the wrappers are not important, but the EFFECT of the gum, filling a room with blue bubbles. There are blue bubbles on the official site now....
What would happen if Voldie was in a room filled with blue bubbles?

silver ink pot

September 17th, 2004, 6:04 pm

Comic Book Worm: You are not alone. I tried for two hours to get the eggs, the lines, and the bubbles, and I couldn't get anything to work in the trophy room. :sad: In fact, I was so tired by the time I had wasted an hour that I didn't even connect the bubbles to this thread. OMG. I am losing it.

I think the bubbles are a big deal - and don't you love the Rubbish Bin with all the gum wrappers?

But you are right, Comic. I hate this clicking and clicking.

furryfreakferret

September 18th, 2004, 12:23 am

I wish it was mine. But furryfreakferret gets all the credit for this one. It's been one of those goldmines of research that gets all the brain chemicals swooshing around happily. Add chocolate, and it's positively exhilirating! Thanks for the help at the site. I never find that stuff unless someone is pointing it all out to me. The picture of Nick is a surprise. He looks like Jack Sparrow! <giggle> Thanks, whiz. But I must say, the Beneath the Surface is just as much fun, and that one's all your doing. I'll have to go to the Library now, you know, to use the DSL computers. There are really bluebell bubbles? And I kind of want to try dialing Peeves. hehehe. Wish I could say something of more intrest, but I can't. At least you know I'm still alive now, though. This thread keeps talking about things that are before my time or that I've never heard of. It's rather difficult to reply to.

silver ink pot

September 18th, 2004, 1:57 am

I got the bubbles tonight! Last night the site must have been overloaded, because it had even saved the fact that I already had the eggs and the hair, so I was able to get the bubbles in the trophy room on the first try.

I must say, they were smaller than I expected - smaller than the eggshells.

And I got to see Peeves - just love that picture - and Nick.

So do all these things go together? The ghosts, the bubbles, the eggshells, and the hair? Oh yes, the marble and the dragon - did everyone get that? You wait on the main page till the wind blows, and as soon as the marble "swirls," you click it and get a page about dragon geography and how to raise one. Is the marble a remembrall?

Peeves was connected to gum in PoA, when he plugged up the keyhole with gum and Lupin made the gum shoot out of it and up Peeves' nose with a
"Waddiwasi" spell. That is just before the first boggart lesson in PoA.

Then, in OotP, Peeves is seen shooting "ink pellets" down onto Katie Bell's head. That reminds me of "blue-bell" bubbles. Did anyone notice that when you break the ink pen on the "Rubbish Bin" page, the ink spills out onto the page, but there also appear to be "lumps" of ink? As in "ink pellets"?

And why were the bluebell bubbles in the Trophy room??? Remember that they "last for days" and these were hidden behind a "medal" box. Did someone win a medal for creating bluebell bubbles? Or has someone been in the trophy room chewing the gum and left behind a clue? Peeves is often in the trophy room, and so is Filch. Hmmmm. Ron is made to clean the trophy room. Is there anyone else who is ever in there?

MarauderHedwig

September 24th, 2004, 2:46 pm

My theory is
...
.....
..
......
...
..
.
.......
..
...
....
Voldemort is allergic to gum or something in gum
OR
He has empty-gum-wrapper-phobia

that is an interesting theory. JK is definitely trying to tell us something though

whizbang121

September 24th, 2004, 5:02 pm

:huh:

Let's go back to the shrinking solution. I still wonder if Snape intends Neville to use it to help his parents. If he can return them to a state before they were attacked and driven mad, then use the antidote to return them to their correct ages, maybe they'll be cured?

MarauderHedwig

September 25th, 2004, 8:39 am

HarryPotter

September 25th, 2004, 2:37 pm

whizbang121

September 25th, 2004, 4:20 pm

Whats the significance of the shrinking potion though?
Well I've been searching the thread for 20 minutes and haven't found the shrinking solution posts, so since the "search this thread" function doesn't work, I guess the only choice is to read the thread. It's a good one. The first version was even better. The premise is that in PoA, in a potions class the assignment is a shrinking solution. Neville's turns all wrong and Snape says they're going to test it on his toad. But Hermione fixes the potion and it works, (enraging Snape.) But it didn't just shrink Trevor. It returned him to a tadpole. Snape's antidote returned him to normal.

If Snape is trying to communicate with the Gryffindor's in ways other than verbal, is he showing them, and particularly Neville, a potion that will cure the Longbottoms?

Ralen

September 25th, 2004, 4:57 pm

The premise is that in PoA, in a potions class the assignment is a shrinking solution. Neville's turns all wrong and Snape says they're going to test it on his toad. But Hermione fixes the potion and it works, (enraging Snape.) But it didn't just shrink Trevor. It returned him to a tadpole. Snape's antidote returned him to normal.
I thought that shrinking, means making something smaller, which means Neville's toad should have been turned into a very small toad? That was my understanding of shrinking (Honey! I shrunk the kids! comes to mind).
A tadpole is the form that it takes after it's hatched from it's egg isn't it? I personally thought that was a techinical error on JK's part. It suggests that if the shrinking solution was given to a human, they'd turn into a baby. I don't really call that shrinking, that's to do with time.

If Snape is trying to communicate with the Gryffindor's in ways other than verbal, is he showing them, and particularly Neville, a potion that will cure the Longbottoms?

If it was a simple as a Shrinking Solution to help cure Neville's parents I'm sure someone would have thought of it already. Like Dumbledore who seems to know everything. So I don't think it's Snape's way of telling Neville how to help cure them. I personally don't think they'll be cured at all.

sneff

September 25th, 2004, 5:23 pm

i have to say that i agree. if that was the case surely everyone in st.mungos would be cured just a drop of the potion and the they would go back to how they were before. if it would work then Mr. weasleys bites would have been easier to sort would they not?????

furryfreakferret

September 26th, 2004, 2:42 am

Till now, all the gum wrappers in JKR's website were green, and a few white ones... right now in the Rubbish Bin section there are also blue wrappers...
Any significance for that new gum flavour? (Slytherin green and Ravenclaw blue?) And Albus/Rowena white! :lol:

I thought that shrinking, means making something smaller, which means Neville's toad should have been turned into a very small toad? That was my understanding of shrinking (Honey! I shrunk the kids! comes to mind).
A tadpole is the form that it takes after it's hatched from it's egg isn't it? I personally thought that was a techinical error on JK's part. It suggests that if the shrinking solution was given to a human, they'd turn into a baby. I don't really call that shrinking, that's to do with time. Yes, that is the usual meaning of the word "shrinking," but the Solution definately turns Trevor into a tadpole. Though now that you mention it... there's that baby-headed Death Eater blundering around the DoM. (I wonder if anyone ever mentioned to set him right again?) Could that have something to do with this?

If it was a simple as a Shrinking Solution to help cure Neville's parents I'm sure someone would have thought of it already. Like Dumbledore who seems to know everything. So I don't think it's Snape's way of telling Neville how to help cure them. I personally don't think they'll be cured at all. What was that theory whiz had about hiding out in the open? Sometimes, and I speak from experience here, the simplist answers are the hardest ones to find. ;)

Anyway, my two knuts worth. Sorry I haven't been able to get on much. School you know.

whizbang121

September 26th, 2004, 4:45 am

I don't really call that shrinking, that's to do with time. Exactly! It's all about Time. :agree:

Miss you Furry. Hope school is good. :tu:

okay, chapter seven in PoA, pages 123 -128. This particular potions class has a lot going on in it, and the shrinking solution itself is almost lost in the rest of the goings on. But there is a theory that Snape is trying to communicate with the students in nonverbal ways, so that when the Dark Lord looks in his mind, he will only see nastiness, etc. If that's the case, is there a message for Neville in this potion?

Ralen

September 26th, 2004, 12:16 pm

Exactly! It's all about Time.
okay, chapter seven in PoA, pages 123 -128. This particular potions class has a lot going on in it, and the shrinking solution itself is almost lost in the rest of the goings on. But there is a theory that Snape is trying to communicate with the students in nonverbal ways, so that when the Dark Lord looks in his mind, he will only see nastiness, etc. If that's the case, is there a message for Neville in this potion?

Well, if it's all to do with time why not just make things easier altogether by using the Time Turner and stopping Bellatrix from getting anywhere near the Longbottoms in the first place? (And a whole lot of other things)

I thought the fact that Snape was a skilled Occlumens was the reason why LV can't detect anything when he delves into Snape's mind?

If your theory that Snape is trying to communicate non-verbally is true, that would mean that other potions taught in class should be just as relevant as the Shrinking Solution.

whizbang121

September 26th, 2004, 3:38 pm

Exactly. It's not my theory, though. It goes back almost a year and a half to a post by Ellen.

I'm not entirely sure I believe it, but it's well worth considering when Snape treats everyone so badly, yet Dumbledore insists on trusting him. :huh:

I understand you've only been signed up here for eleven days. These discussions have been going on for quite awhile.

Another premise we consider is that the Longbottoms recovery is being prevented somehow. Bode's assasination by a plant as easy to recognise as Devil's Snare, something studied by first years in Hogwarts, gives the impression that someone in St Mungo's is working for the "other side." Thus the idea that Snape may be trying to help Neville understand how to help his parents.

As for Snape's occlumency, if he blocks out a lot of stuff he needs to have something available for the Dark Lord to "pick up." Also, he's in contact with Malfoy.

Ralen

September 26th, 2004, 3:51 pm

Exactly. It's not my theory, though. It goes back almost a year and a half to a post by Ellen.[\QUOTE]

Yeah I wasn't sure if it was yours or not (There is no way I could gone through everything) but now that I know who it's by, I'll have to look it up some time.

[QUOTE=whizbang121] I'm not entirely sure I believe it, but it's well worth considering when Snape treats everyone so badly, yet Dumbledore insists on trusting him. :huh:

I understand you've only been signed up here for eleven days. These discussions have been going on for quite awhile.

Another premise we consider is that the Longbottoms recovery is being prevented somehow. Bode's assasination by a plant as easy to recognise as Devil's Snare, something studied by first years in Hogwarts, gives the impression that someone in St Mungo's is working for the "other side." Thus the idea that Snape may be trying to help Neville understand how to help his parents.

As for Snape's occlumency, if he blocks out a lot of stuff he needs to have something available for the Dark Lord to "pick up." Also, he's in contact with Malfoy.

Yes, I know I've only officially signed up for 11 days but it doesn't mean I haven't been lurking around. Having said that, please forgive me if I come across ignorant.
I've read a few really interesting theories in v1 and some here too. about the ties between, gum, Neville and LV and many seem well thought out and plausible. A lot of it would never had occured to me had I not read these forums.

I'll have to go and study more Snape and Neville scenarios to see if I have a definite view for or against that theory but from what I remember of Snape's Potions classes, it's a "no, that's not it" for now.

whizbang121

September 26th, 2004, 4:09 pm

It seems important to stay open to possibilites until JKR finishes the series. Things could go so many different ways. So there are a lot of theories that are interesting because there is canon to back them, but that won't be proved one way or another until the last book is read.

My inclination is to despise Snape, but Dumbledore trusts him. This presents me with a difficulty that Ellen's suggestion may explain. If she's right about Snape's confrontational communication methods, then looking for possible messages encrypted in all the hissing and spitting may be worthwhile.

So while I'm not sure about the theory, being aware of it leads me to notice possible examples that may suggest or contradict it. Potions classes tend to be full of information, and that one in PoA strikes me as packed with subliminal hints.

Maybe a thread to discuss Snape's potions classes would be interesting. Hmmm.......

I'll have to go and study more Snape and Neville scenarios to see if I have a definite view for or against that theory but from what I remember of Snape's Potions classes, it's a "no, that's not it" for now. That's nice.

Well, no one will ever accuse me of failing to have or express an opinion. :lol: But in the final analysis, the only opinion that really matters is JKR's. :)

ComicBookWorm

September 26th, 2004, 4:12 pm

It seems important to stay open to possibilites until JKR finishes the series. Things could go so many different ways. So there are a lot of theories that are interesting because there is canon to back them, but that won't be proved one way or another until the last book is read.

My inclination is to despise Snape, but Dumbledore trusts him. This presents me with a difficulty that Ellen's suggestion may explain. If she's right about Snape's confrontational communication methods, then looking for possible messages encrypted in all the hissing and spitting may be worthwhile.

So while I'm not sure about the theory, being aware of it leads me to notice possible examples that may suggest or contradict it. Potions classes tend to be full of information, and that one in PoA strikes me as packed with subliminal hints.

Maybe a thread to discuss Snape's potions classes would be interesting. Hmmm.......

That's nice.

Well, no one will ever accuse me of failing to have or express an opinion. :lol: But in the final analysis, the only opinion that really matters is JKR's. :)
whiz the potions classes thread is a great idea. Barbara Kennedy and other seveges would be very helpful there. I'll try to keep my feelings about Snape to myself in that thread.

Gwenog Jones

September 26th, 2004, 5:20 pm

My inclination is to despise Snape, but Dumbledore trusts him. This presents me with a difficulty that Ellen's suggestion may explain. If she's right about Snape's confrontational communication methods, then looking for possible messages encrypted in all the hissing and spitting may be worthwhile.
Hmm, just got done reading through Ellen's thread. My instincts tell me to despise Snape as well. Her thread, however, definitely made sense and could be the answer to why Dumbledore does indeed trust Snape. interesting stuff..

whizbang121

September 27th, 2004, 12:07 am

I think Ellen is a genius. Can you post the link to the thread you read, Gwenog_Jones?

Potions class thread. Hmmm..... Well, conversations with Dumbledore died, so maybe I'll take a chance on rocking the Sevages/Maudies boat. :scared: Cringe.

furryfreakferret

September 27th, 2004, 2:27 am

:agree: Snape's not a very verbal person, though he can definately say what he wants when he wants. (If you want a good place to look for meaning in hissing and spitting, whiz, I'd point you toward his explanation of Occulmency. Lots of encrypted messages there, I think. We just don't bother with it because most of it's already been revealed.) Say it with potions! Doesn't it sound like the slogan for something? :lol:

Ha! I just thought of how to use the Shrinking Solution. Shrink the Death Eater in St. Mungo's. The baby-headed Death Eater in the Department of Mysteries is a foreshadow. Now... who knocked him into the bell jar? Does anyone remember?

:lol: The forums are like that, Ralen. We couldn't come up with any of this stuff on our own, let's just face facts. Hooray for our lovely forum family!

I think Ellen is a genius. Can you post the link to the thread you read, Gwenog_Jones?

Oh, yes, please do. It sounds like an interesting thread. Anyway, I must go get ready for bed. Toodles, all!

whizbang121

September 28th, 2004, 2:03 am

http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=569284&postcount=313
Hey guys, remember this one?

To go forward she must walk backward, or else she will end up right back where she started. To complete a task, she must start at the end and work toward the beginning. Is this a hint about shrinking solution?

silver ink pot

September 28th, 2004, 7:30 am

Whizbang: Reading your post tonight just made something pop into my mind. It was that old quote from "Popkin" about things going backwards to go forwards. I started thinking about old Gumby animations I used to watch as a kid - with Gumby and Pokey walking through mirrors. I thought, if Gumby belongs anywhere, he belongs on this thread, lol. :p

Here are some interesting plot lines involving shrinking and mirrors:

http://www.everwonder.com/david/gumby/early.html

Lost and Found

Gumby gets 50 cents to buy a loaf of bread and a dozen eggs with a firm reminder that, if he loses the money, it comes out of his allowance. Gumby has to ride on a crane to get down from the shelf his house is on, but the crane operator delights in mixing him with cat litter, and wouldn't you know it, Gumby's 50 cents rolls into a mirror. His reflection offers to help him find it, but warns him that, in Mirrorland, everything has to be done backwards. After a jarring backwards car ride (where several towers of blocks are un-destroyed), Gumby finds the fifty cent piece buried in some cat litter. The end.

Highlights

There's several non-stop-motion shots of things happening to a stiff Gumby figure.
A lot of the "backwards" events wouldn't make sense if they happened forwards.

Super Spray

Professor Kapp has discovered that the solution to all the world's problems involves shrinking things. To that end, he's invented a de-bigulation spray with every intention to use it to make the world a better place for everyone. Unfortunately, it falls into the hands of Prickle, Goo, and Pokey, who have no goals beyond shrinking people who get in their way on the street and shrinking zoo animals that scare them. Wouldn't you know it, just as Prickle's about to shrink the gorilla, it steals the can from him, and Pokey and Prickle become tiny. This would be a problem if Kapp didn't have a re-bigulation spray, and he does, so everything's fine. At least, it is until, in a ridiculously contrived mishap, Kapp drops the spray, making making it fire at him until he becomes huge! With his giant brain, he acquires all the knowledge of the universe and brings the world to its knees.

Highlights

Prickle: (watching a chair shrink) Hey! That's like Alice In Wonderland!
Prickle's shrunk voice sounds suspiciously like Pokey's normal voice.

Mirror-Aculous Recovery

While Prickle and Goo search for a hairbrush that's so important that it's only mentioned once, Gumby and Pokey enter a mirror, hoping to redeem the free hot fudge sundaes that a nearby sign promises them. Unfortunately, it's a trap set by the Blockheads, who shatter the mirror, trapping Gumby and Pokey in a strange other-world. When Goo fails to reassemble the mirror by reversing a tape recording of a note that shatters glass, Goo and Prickle get a clue and have Professor Kapp reassemble it with the most powerful plot device in the world.

Highlights

The 'J' on one of the Blockheads is backwards.
Professor Kapp's molecular reconfiguration machine doesn't need any data besides how many pieces the mirror is broken in.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

That last one is interesting about reversing a recording - reminds me of playing the Beatles backwards. And Harry does have a broken mirror that needs to be put back together!

whizbang121

September 28th, 2004, 9:48 pm

:huh: Good point. Mirrors turn everything around. And there's that scene in PoA when Harry's out of his dorm looking for PPettigrew. He turns and sees himself in a mirror and nearly has a stroke.

Hmmmmm..........

Hopefully, the first chapter of Bk six will be Godric's Hollow, Halloween, 1981.

A friend wandered through the kitchen today and asked offhandedly when book six was coming out. I nearly cried.

HarryPotter

September 29th, 2004, 10:25 pm

Mirrors... that reminds me of one HP fanfiction I wrote not too long ago...

I remember that JKR mentioned in one interview that while watching the movie of PoA she noticed some foreshadowing elements from the next books...

I was thinking... this scene, after the Dementor attack in the train, where Harry remains looking his own reflection into the window of the train... perhaps it was one of these elements...

whizbang121

September 29th, 2004, 11:48 pm

It happens again later, when he's out in the hall at night with the Marauders' Map. He spots himself in the mirror and scares himself half to death. :huh: Smoke and mirrors. Harry Houdini. It's all done with mirrors. ;)

furryfreakferret

October 1st, 2004, 8:59 pm

:lol: That episode of Gumby with the de-bigulation spray reminds me of that Beatles movie we were talking about earlier (not to pull the old strife back up again...). What was it called? "Help!" or somethig like that? I am interested in what becomes of the consquences of breaking that mirror. Did his seven years of bad luck begin back in book one, or assuming he survives book 7, will it have to continue on until the poor guy's 22? But... now that I think about that, I'm curious could Voldemort blast Harry back to book 1 at the end of book seven? That means the fifth book was his final year of bad luck, but.... Forget it, I'll go write a fanfic later. This has nothing to do with anything anyway. See you later, everyone!

Choices

October 2nd, 2004, 7:24 am

I'm new, so please be easy on me.
Having read a great deal of this thread I noticed the discussion is covering more than just the gum wrappers, so I'm wondering if anyone has any thoughts about the daffodils on the table in the room with the closed door.
I just remembered that after Prof. Trelawney was sacked Lavender told Hermione "We went up to her office to see her, we took her some daffodils - not the honking ones that Sprout's got, nice ones..."

Those daffodils look so innocent and pretty there on the table, but I can't help but wonder if JKR hasn't got them there for a purpose.

Gwenog Jones

October 2nd, 2004, 11:01 pm

:welcome: to the forums Choices!

About daffodils, do you think that there might be something more to the ones given to Prof. Trewlaney? Or perhaps they will come up again in a different situation in the future books? I have always wondered the exact purpose of the "honking ones" that Sprout got.

Choices

October 3rd, 2004, 8:14 pm

Thanks for the welcome, Gwenog Jones. I've had a lot of fun following the clues on JKR's site and reading this forum. I finally took the plunge and registered.
As so many of you have mentioned before. JKR so often brings back something into the story that's already been mentioned I decided to keep check of those daffodils.

silver ink pot

October 3rd, 2004, 9:01 pm

The daffodil is pretty off-topic, even for us :p . But I wrote on another thread that JKR's son is named David, and St. David is the Patron Saint of Wales. The daffodil is a symbol of Wales, and is worn on March 1st.

Gosh, I wonder if that means that the next book might come out March 1 of next year? Hmmmmmm . . . trying not to get excited. The following article says that the daffodil was worn to celebrate the investiture of the Prince of Wales - sort of interesting that the book will be called "The Half-Blood Prince."

Other symbols of Wales are the red dragon and the leek, an onion-like plant. Trelawney is definitely associated with the daffodils. Luna is seen in OotP sucking on a cocktail onion. Just thought I'd throw that in - don't know if it means anything, lol.

http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/yourwales/history/content_objectid=13918897_method=full_siteid=50082_headline=-Dragons--leeks-and-daffodils--our-national-emblems-name_page.html

St David is, of course, the patron saint of Wales and the patriotic wear small, ornamental leeks and daffodils on March 1 to celebrate the Principality's own saint's day.

In contrast, the daffodil is a much younger emblem, gaining popularity in the 19th century. Women, especially, were fond of this bright, cheerful flower as an emblem of Wales.

At the beginning of the 20th century it became even more closely associated with the Principality when Welshman and British Prime Minster David Lloyd George wore it on St David's Day and at ceremonies to mark the investiture of the then Prince of Wales.

furryfreakferret

October 4th, 2004, 10:41 pm

Oh! Red dragon? Is that a Draco-turns-out-all-right-in-the-end clue I spy? ;) No, in all seriousness, great sidetrack, Choices, and a welcome in from me as well. Good to have some new blood. But back to daffodils and onion-plants, could this maybe mean Luna's a diviner? She's odd enough. And I'm pulling onion-topped straws, but never mind that.

I've also been rethinking some of our older topics. I was telling my friend on IM the other day about all our lovely discussions here and she mentioned that all this talk was giving her a craving for gum. I told her to "Ask Alice" and then, remembered, with one of those joyous little leaps we all get when we spot a connection, that this a book by an anoynomous author describing her struggle with... you'll have to forgive me, I've forgotten which illegal drug it is; ectasy sticks in my mind. I wondered if we could pull this aside as evidence for the Alice-being-drugged-by-bubblegum theory, or perhaps it's simply odd coincidence.

Also, when Neville was turning purple back back at dear old Mungo's, are we entirely sure it was in shame about his parents? Could it have been something else? His grandmother maybe? I'm a pretty firm believer in the vulture being the Egyptian symbol of protection, but it was an interesting thought.

Well, anyway, I'll let you all tear those comments apart. I'm going to go edit my almost-finished ( :upset: ) fanfic and then return to my science homework. Toodles!

Dr Hesper

October 6th, 2004, 5:37 am

Hi gang! Just sitting here surfing the forums and I thought I’d make a post. Last time I checked in we were talking about the film “Grease”. One of my favorite films Fast Times at Ridgemont High just came on and I thought of you guys. (Surely someone in those films chewed gum).

The premise is that in PoA, in a potions class the assignment is a shrinking solution. Neville's turns all wrong and Snape says they're going to test it on his toad. But Hermione fixes the potion and it works, (enraging Snape.) But it didn't just shrink Trevor. It returned him to a tadpole. Snape's antidote returned him to normal.

If Snape is trying to communicate with the Gryffindor's in ways other than verbal, is he showing them, and particularly Neville, a potion that will cure the Longbottoms? Snape trying to communicate with the Griffindors? Perhaps Neville in particular? Not a bad idea. If Snape were undercover as has been suggested, he most certainly wouldn’t want to be seen as anything other than someone who hates the Griffindors and the kids of that house. I wonder, though, if he can really expect the kids to catch any clues he might be tossing their way? They don’t seem to taking any hints. Perhaps Snape hopes that they may review the events in his classes at a later date (note the “time” reference?) and sort of connect the dots?

The effects of Neville’s potions simulate a reversal of time. Time appears to be a theme of PoA and OotP in particular. In fact, how many items and events could we come up with that suggest a time theme? I would think that time would be a more prevalent theme than nearly any other in the books. Also, slightly off topic here, but someone reminded me of St. Mungos. Some feel there’s some sinister goings-on in that hospital. Wouldn’t some of the more forgotten of the patients there make good guinea pigs to test out potions on?

Yes, I know I've only officially signed up for 11 days but it doesn't mean I haven't been lurking around. Having said that, please forgive me if I come across ignorant.Unfortunately some of the old timers can be a bit…well, they sometimes make assumptions they shouldn’t. Welcome btw! And dont apologize. I, for one, don’t think you are ignorant. :)

I'm new, so please be easy on me.
Having read a great deal of this thread I noticed the discussion is covering more than just the gum wrappers, so I'm wondering if anyone has any thoughts about the daffodils on the table in the room with the closed door.This thread rambles all over the place. It didn’t seem to bother anyone, and I gave up and decided to just go with it. Welcome, have a cup of tea and enjoy! I think everything behind that closed door is there for a reason, but I don’t yet know what the daffodils refer to. Daffodil is a flower isnt it? Some of the character’s names refer to flowers as well. (Petunia, Lily, etc). Any connection to dafodils and other characters? I dunno. :)

Incidentally, Peeves chews gum. In fact, I'm not sure I've seen anyone else chewing gum. Could there be a connection between Alice's gift of gum wrappers to Neville and Peeves? Could Peeves hold the key to some mystery?

;)

Choices

October 6th, 2004, 11:07 pm

Dr. Hester, I posted on the "Trelawney-Important or just for laughs" thread about the daffodils, after I found it. I just think the daffodils might open into another room with a clue.
As for the shrinking solution curing Nevillle's parents, I keep thinking of that "Crumple-Horned Snorkrack" Luna and her father will be going to Sweden to try to catch. Maybe that will be the cure for Neville's parents.
Sounds weird, but..........

Nicole

October 6th, 2004, 11:16 pm

Haven't seen the point made since the daffodils came up (groan, bad pun), so I will fuel the fire by saying daffodils are of the narcissus family....JKR says we will see more of Narcissa Malfoy in HBP....

furryfreakferret

October 8th, 2004, 2:14 am

Oh! excellent catch, nickyg. -slaps self on head for not recognizing this sooner- I think we may actually be onto something here with these daffodils (although what they have to do with bubblegum...). We talked earlier, way, way, way back, so much to the point that only a very few of us will recall, about the importance of mirrors throughout this series (I believe we were discussing the reflective properties of the tin wrapper on gum). We came up then with Narcissa's connections to the subject. Narcissus -- those who know the legend can now allow there minds to wander while I fill in others -- was a man so enthralled by his reflection that he sat all day by the water's (oh, look, whiz! Another something for Beneath the Surface!) edge and simply admired it. Echo fell in love with him, but he, so in love with himself, ignored her, and she withered away for want of him. In punishment, the gods transformed into a flower (more specifically one of the narcissus family, like a daffodil) and planted him by the water so that he could be forever united with his true love: his reflection. Here's a more indepth version:

http://www.loggia.com/myth/echo2.html and continued on http://www.loggia.com/myth/echo3.html

Now, what you can do with this, I don't know. But you have now the background, so plow on. I suppose we could always throw out another half-baked theory like... Trewlaney being somehow related to Narcissa. (hehe. No wonder Drake doesn't take Divination.) Oh! but that would mean Trewlaney, who Dumbledore's trying so hard to keep from enemy hands... suddenly, his wanting Trewlaney to stay makes even more sense. What if she had gone to live with the Malfoys? But... wouldn't Jo have told us of this in that lovely little family tree? Yeah. Probably. Never mind.

By the way, kudos to Doc (I'm pretty sure it was Doc) for bringing Peeves into the conversation. I love Peeves and I like the idea of his having a bigger role, but how he would be connected to the Longbottoms, I don't know.

silver ink pot

October 8th, 2004, 3:43 am

This is long tonight because I haven't posted anything really meaningful on this thread in a while, and Furry inspired me tonight! Thanks, Furry!

I think "Narcissa" is supposed to be a comment on her personality - I think she is a Narcissist - psychologically in love with herself, and with little real feeling for others.

I checked out a book from the library today called: The Language of Flowers, Symbols and Myths, by Marina Heilmeyer. The daffodil, according to this book, is also associated with the story of Persephone, who was picking flowers and the "earth opened up and Hades carried her off to be his wife." Hades is the god of the Underworld. (That is interesting, Trelawney possibly connected to the Underworld, even though she is in the tower! On the Layers thread we were talking about how the ancient Sybill was associated with caves in the earth, not towers.) In ancient Egypt, daffodil bulb skins were placed of the eyes, nose, and mouth of a mummy. In Christianity, the daffodil is the symbol resurrection ( probably because it blooms in the spring, around Easter - my note).

I think the daffodil is a major clue! But I'm just not sure it has anything to do with the gum because you can't eat a daffodil - aren't they poisonous?

Anyway, Furry sent me off in a new direction by mentioning "Go Ask Alice." From what I've read online, this is a very depressing and grim story about a "perfect" girl who accidentally takes drugs, then becomes and all-out addict. She does go in and out of mental institutions, which reminds me of our Alice Longbottom, and she keeps a diary, sometimes just scribbled on pieces of paper, about all the bad things that happen to her. This reminded me the gum wrappers, for sure.

Spark Notes: Go Ask Alice - Main Page
http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/goaskalice/
Plot Overview
http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/goaskalice/summary.html

"Go Ask Alice" probably gets it's title from the song by Jefferson Airplane, sung by Grace Slick, which uses Alice in Wonderland symbols to describe drug use.

One pill makes you larger
And one pill makes you small
And the ones that mother gives you
Don't do anything at all
Go ask Alice
When shes ten feet tall
And if you go chasing rabbits
And you know your going to fall
Tell them the hookah-Smoking caterpillar
has given you the call
Call Alice when she was just small
When the men on the chess board get up and tell you where to go
And you just had some kind of mushroom
And your mind is moving slow
Go ask Alice
I think she'll know
When logic and proportion
Have fallen so I'll be dead
And the white knight's talking backwards
And the Red Queen Says off with her head
Remember what the dormouse said
Feed your head
Feed your head

Does this have any meaning for the Longbottom's and Neville?

Then I started thinking that maybe JKR might use the phrase "Go Ask Alice" as an anagram. Now that gave me some interesting results! :eyebrows: Remember Uncle Algie???

A SOCK ALGIE
ALGIE SAC OK
ALGIE ASK CO

A AGILE SOCK
ALIAS GECKO
AGE IS A LOCK
AGE IS CLOAK

A AEGIS LOCK

~~~AEGIS CLOAK~~~

A SOCIAL KEG
CASK LIE AGO
SACK GO A LIE

GAELIC OAKS
GAELIC SOAK
CAGES AIL OK
SACK GOALIE

LEAK GAS CO I

Now I had never studied the word "aegis" before, but it has to do with a shield that is also a cloak. It is associated with snakes, because of the head of Medusa, and goats, because it was made of goatskin. Athena (Minerva) is usually the owner of the aegis, but she loans it to Perseus to kill Medusa.

http://www.gods-heros-myth.com/objects.html

Athena's Aegis:
The Aegis was a snake-fringed shield/armor that had the head of a gorgon (Medusa) in the center. It was said that the wearer of this Aegis would be invincible.

http://www.loggia.com/myth/lexicon1.html

aegis | a shield; Zeus had a goat-skin aegis, while Athena adorned the aegis with the head of Medusa

http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/ent/A0802598.html
aegis , in Greek mythology, weapon of Zeus and Athena. It possessed the power to terrify and disperse the enemy or to protect friends. The aegis was usually described as a garment made of goatskin slung over the shoulder or as a piece of armor. The aegis of Athena was a breastplate covered with goatskin and bordered with snakes, bearing in the center the head of the Gorgon Medusa.

The following has pictures of the aegis on ancient coins:
http://www.snible.org/coins/aegis2.html

In Greek myth the hero Perseus kept the head of the gorgon Medusa in a special bag. He used the head on many adventures. In the Apollodorus (1st century AD) version of the myth Perseus used the head to turn king Polydectes and his friends to stone. He gives the gorgon head to Athena, and Hermes inserts the head in the middle of her shield.

In The Iliad (750-725 BC) Homer says that the gorgon's likeness appears on the aegis of Athena. Homer probably wasn't talking about a shield because he also says the gorgon's likeness appears on Agamemnon's shield. Homer also says the aegis is the thundercloud of Zeus.

Herodotus wrote (450-430 BC) that the aegis was a tasseled goatskin worn by Libyan women and that Zeus had such a skin made from the goat that suckled him. Dionysius Scytobrachion said that the Aegis was a fire breathing monster that Athena killed and skinned.

Whew! That's all for tonight! I hope some of it makes sense!

Dr Hesper

October 8th, 2004, 10:09 am

I think the daffodil is a major clue! But I'm just not sure it has anything to do with the gum because you can't eat a daffodil - aren't they poisonous?I think it may be important too.

I've been thinking about it for a bit and had begun to get a bit frustrated over this. You see, I believe that any good mystery writer is bound to play fair with the readers. To give solid clues to the fans is fine, but to lead us on a wild goose chase outside the boundaries of a book is , well....not cool. :grumble: Take the dart board for instance. Someone did find the dartboard reference in the story I think, but for awhile we had some trouble locating it. I think if it turns out that the dartboard leads to a good clue about the series then Jo has played fair with us. If not...then I think its a cruel joke at our expense. I think the 'red herrings' should remain in the books rather than be blatantly waved before our noses on her website as if they are really and truly of significance. So I'm hoping that any and everything we find on her website is of significance and meaning as it relates to the story. :)

Back to the daffodils. I'm not sure but I dont remember anyone pointing out a specific place in the books that refer to daffodils. We've talked about the relationship to a Greek legend, Echo, Hades, the underworld, etc, but I'm still at a loss as to how that can relate to events, items or characters in the story. So far, that doesnt appear to have many solid connections and I'm afraid if we may be in danger of again getting lost in the many possible meanings. (However it is good imo to talk these things out as long as we are able to keep things in perspective. I believe we would be wise to try to connect everything to the story in some manner). Some of this stuff might be significant though it requires the reader to be either a serious student of mythology or a botonist. And I'm not sure that such vague symbolic clues are fair to the majority of fans and am not certain Jo would expect this of us. I could be wrong though if so, it's very disappointing. :sad:

But.....

Assuming that Jo does, in the spirit of trying to make a connection to things that are actually in the story (and having trouble with this)....I finally had another thought. (I would say it was brilliant...but it isnt. It was just luck). So far we've spent gads of time and space discussing chewing gum, the properties of chewing gum, who has been seen using it, what use it could have and what it is made of. We've wracked our brains trying to connect chewing gum to something either magical or poisonous and again tried to connect it to the Longbottoms. And while I was fuming over the daffodil symbolism (and thinking it had no connection whatsoever to the story at all), I began to try to see if it could be connected to the gum. And ya know what? It can!

Droobles Best Blowing gum has certain properties that allow a person to blow bubbles which last for days. But they arent just any run of the mill long-lasting bubbles are they. They are a specific kind of bubble. The are Blue Bell bubbles. Blue Bells are a type of flower arent they? So are daffodils. So are Petunias, Lilies, and so forth. (Is Myrtal a flower or a tree?)

It appears Jo has set a pattern for us to follow and hidden them in the story. She's done similiar things with constellations I think and probably other stuff as well. While i dont know what the pattern of flower names is supposed to mean, i do think that the flowers are important. The daffodils must be important and the character names are important I think.

Perhaps Alice Longbottom is dropping hints that Neville should be trying to make a connection with their condition and characters associated with flowers. :eyebrows: How many Flowers and flower references can we think of that might aid us? And how can they be connected to the events in the story? Perhaps we should continue looking at what information we might have on Lily, Petunia, and any other character or place or item that is associated with flowers. Because it doesnt appear we are getting anywhere concentrating on gum, sticky, resin or whatever. Then again....The Mibulus Mimbletonia has a sticky resin too, so.......

I dunno....

As for the legend of PErsephone, Hades, the underworld and all that....the only thing I can see that we can use to connect that legend to the HP story is that the underworld evokes images (in my mind) to the Goblins and the tunnels. I dont know if that is of enough significance for anyone to latch onto, but there it is if anyone wishes to run with it. :)

FFF: I think I've read where we should learn more about Peeves in the next books, so he must have some significance. I dont know how he can be connected to the Longbottoms either unless he knows something. Is it possible that, while the villains who attacked the Longbottoms cannot be a threat to Peeves, the Bloody Baron might be? Isnt it odd that Peeves seems only to fear the Bloody Baron and we know so little about this ghost who has such a presence in the books? Perhaps someone should take a look at his past...if it is possible. :)

SyirenSlytherin

October 8th, 2004, 4:58 pm

i think the dafodils reference in the books was in OotP when Lavender and Parvati give some to Tralawnie.

with Peeves, i'm almost convinced there's something there. he puts gum in a keyhole - gum is the key, gum is preventing the door to open... i'm sure there's something to that.

Gwenog Jones

October 8th, 2004, 8:33 pm

Yes, daffodils were mentioned when Lavender and Parvati visitied Trewlawney. They said they gave her nice ones, not honking ones like Prof. Sprout had. Choicesmentioned this earlier I think.

furryfreakferret

October 8th, 2004, 9:22 pm

Poor, Doc. He's so lost. Paravati and Lavender brought Prof. Trewlawney some daffodils after she had been dismissed by the ugly toad in the pink cardigan. They mentioned that they were the nice kind (which we assume are the ones we Muggles know), not the horrible honking ones Sprout's got, and that's where this coversation began.

Great connection by the way, about Peeves being afraid of the Bloody Baron only. -smirks and runs off to write a fanfic-

Your very welcome, inky, but don't tell me you actually get books out on this stuff? -gawks-

Interesting stuff this time round. 'Course, it always is. But.... Could Algie maybe go ask the Drooble's Blowing Gum Company something? The Aegis Cloak seems intriguing too. Good book title for Jo, Harry Potter and the Aegis Cloak (although I suppose 'Aegian' would have to be used to make the grammar correct). It has snakes on it though. Is that a connection back to the Blacks? Possibly Narcissa? Oh! and Perseus is one of Dumbledore's middle names, isn't it? He saved Andromeda from being fed to a sea monster. And her mother was vain as well. I'm seeing circles.

There's also a Doris in Go Ask Alice. Isn't there a Doris Crockford in the Order?

Alice is cleaned up and meets a young sufferer of lifelong sexual abuse, Doris, who lets her stay at her apartment. They get sick from malnourishment and hitchhike to Southern California.
A 14-year-old girl whom Alice meets in Oregon. She has been sexually abused by both her stepfather and foster family siblings.

Well, it's been fun, but I'm off now. Toodles!

Nicole

October 8th, 2004, 9:25 pm

Not sure just how toxic daffodils are for humans, but I do know the "sap" that oozes into the vase water will "poison" any other flowers in the same vase (you have to put daffodils into a vase alone and change the water one or more times before adding other flowers--or adding the daffodils to a vase containing other flowers).

whizbang121

October 8th, 2004, 11:17 pm

Other symbols of Wales are the red dragon and the leek, an onion-like plant. Trelawney is definitely associated with the daffodils. Luna is seen in OotP sucking on a cocktail onion. Just thought I'd throw that in - don't know if it means anything, lol.

http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/yourwales/history/content_objectid=13918897_method=full_siteid=50082_headline=-Dragons--leeks-and-daffodils--our-national-emblems-name_page.html
Daffodils are members of the Narcissus family and grow perennially from bulbs, (if the dadburned squirrels don't spend the winter digging up my bulbs. :grumble: ) Their centers look distinctly like a trumpet, and that may explain the "honking." I think in England, honking may mean something that is ridiculously oversized. (Someone correct me on that?)

Anyway. Got some photos. Aren't the white ones pretty?

I was telling my friend on IM the other day about all our lovely discussions here and she mentioned that all this talk was giving her a craving for gum. I told her to "Ask Alice" and then, remembered, with one of those joyous little leaps we all get when we spot a connection, that this a book by an anoynomous author describing her struggle with... you'll have to forgive me, I've forgotten which illegal drug it is; ectasy sticks in my mind. I wondered if we could pull this aside as evidence for the Alice-being-drugged-by-bubblegum theory, orperhaps it's simply odd coincidence. I'm familiar with that book. Isn't the title Go Ask Alice? Either way, it was a reference to the song by that title by Jefferson Airplane, long before you were born. One pill makes you larger
And one pill makes you small.
And the ones that mother gives you
Don't do anything at all
Go ask Alice
When you're ten feet tall.

I seem to recall it was about lsd in the context of .... what was it now?.........
Oh right! Alice in Wonderland. That just keeps getting more and more relevant in every discussion. Did Alice ever timetravel?

Also, when Neville was turning purple back back at dear old Mungo's, are we entirely sure it was in shame about his parents? Could it have been something else? His grandmother maybe? I'm a pretty firm believer in the vulture being the Egyptian symbol of protection, but it was an interesting thought.(cough) Death Eater (cough, hack) But I'm on the fence about Gran. She gives me the willies, but ........
maybe she's okay. Can't tell, yet.

:lol: Why didn't I think someone else wouldn't notice Jefferson Airplane? :rolleyes: As always, nice work SIP. :tu:

We could really take those lyrics apart, couldn't we. :huh:

I think JKR's first book was called "Rabbit." She wrote it when she was six. Are we looking at another pointer to Carroll's work?

Ang the chessmen. :huh: