Wiccan Religion

[Thayet]

I'm aware, Evelyn, that you're a Christian, but as this is for questions, I've always been interested in wiccan, and wicca's. I'm not sure if any of you know, but I'm interested in what they do, how they practice their religion, the god or goddess/s of it, etc. I'm really interested in this, I'm not sure if theres any practising wiccans here or not.

[DragonslayerX]

i dont know for sure, but im fairly sure that they worship nature, and that their main "god" is essentially Mother Nature.

[Morgoth]

Yes, this is for any questions of a religious nature, non-debate. Just friendly interaction and your thread is most welcome Thayet.

Wiccan from Religious Tolerance (http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_beli.htm)

Their beliefs include:

Wiccan Deities: Beliefs differ: Most Wiccans believe that a creative force exists in the universe, which is sometimes called "The One" or " The All". Little can be known of this force.

Most regard the Goddess and the God as representing the female and male aspects of the All. These deities are not "out there somewhere;" they are immanent in the world.

Many regard various pagan Gods and Goddesses (Pan, Athena, Diana, Brigit, Zeus, Odin, etc.) as representing various aspects of the God and Goddess. The term "Wicca" normally implies that the person's religion is based upon Celtic spiritual concepts, deities, and seasonal days of celebration. Some Wiccans include beliefs, practices and symbols from ancient Pagan religions (e.g. Egyptian, Greek, various mystery religions, Roman, Sumerian) or upon Aboriginal religions (Native American Spirituality, Shamanism).

Some Wiccans are actually agnostics, who take no position on the existence of a supreme being or beings. They look upon the Goddess and the God as archetypes, based on myth.

It cannot be stressed enough that Wiccans have no supernatural being in their pantheon of deities who resembles the Christian-Muslim Satan.



Respect for Nature: Wicca is a natural religion, grounded in the earth. All living things (including stars, planets, humans, animals, plants, rocks) are regarded as having a spirit. Many Wiccan rituals deal with bringing harmony and healing to nature. Wiccans tend to share a great concern for the environment.

Gender equality: Wiccans celebrate the sexual polarity of nature. For example, the fertilizing rain is one manifestation of the male principle; the nurturing earth symbolizes the female. Females are respected as equal (and sometimes at a slightly higher rank) to males. A priestess is often the most senior person among coven -- a local group of Wiccans. They aim for a female-male balance in most of their covens (local groups), although men are typically in the minority.

Human sexuality: Sexuality is valued, and regarded as a gift of the Goddess and God, to be engaged in with joy and responsibility, and without manipulation. Wiccans generally accept the findings of human sexuality researchers that there are three normal, natural, and unchosen sexual orientations: heterosexuality, homosexuality and bisexuality. Some Wiccans celebrate "the Great Rite" which involves ritual sexual intercourse. However, it is consensually performed by a committed couple in private.

Afterlife: Wiccans have a wide range of beliefs. Some believe in ancient legends of a Summerland where souls go after death. Here, they meet with others who have gone before, review and integrate their previous lives on earth, and are eventually reincarnated into the body of a new born. Some believe that after many such cycles -- perhaps some as female and others as male; some lives with a high standard of living and others in poverty; some in positions of power and others suffering oppression -- that the individual accumulates sufficient experience to go on to another level of existence about which we know nothing.

Some see an individual's personality, memory, abilities, talents, etc. as functions of the human brain, which degrades and disintegrates at death. They no not anticipate any form of continuity after death.

Other Wiccans anticipate continuity after death in some very narrow senses: That the molecules that go to make up our bodies may in turn be incorporated in other living entities;

That our influences on children, friends, and society in general will continue to have influences on the next generations.


Three-fold Law (a.k.a. the Law of Return) The law states that:
"All good that a person does to another returns three fold in this life; harm is also returned three fold."

This belief strongly motivates each Wiccan to avoid attempting to dominate, manipulate, control, or harm another person.

The Wiccan Rede: This is the main rule of behavior:
"An it harm none, do what thou wilt."

"An" and "wilt" are old English words for "if" and "want to." This means that a person should feel free to do what ever they want to, as long as it does not harm themselves or anyone else. This and the three-fold law obviously prevent a Witch/Wiccan from doing harm to themselves or to others, or taking harmful drugs, etc. Thus, many activities that have been traditionally attributed to Wiccans, from the laying of curses to conducting love spells, are strictly forbidden to them.

There are also members of CoS Forums who are Wiccans and they'll be more than happy to answer any further questions you have.

[HogwartsChaplain]

Thanks for starting this thread, Thayet; it's entirely appropriate for this forum, and exactly the kind of discussion we were hoping would arise. No matter what one's religious beliefs, it helps to understand what other people believe.

In the case of Wicca, it's especially helpful for HP fans to know something about it, since lots of anti-HP religious people use distortions of "evil" Wicca in their diatribes. :no:

Thanks, Matt, for the great info you've provided. I did some internet research on Wicca last winter, but your info is more thorough.

Remember that Wiccan beliefs and practices vary from person to person and place to place, just as in most religions. There are some active Wiccans who are members here, and I hope they will help us understand Wicca as they know and practice it.

Terminology (as I understand it, and compared with comparable terms in Christianity)

Wicca ~ the name of the religion (i.e. Christianity)
Wiccan ~ as in "the Wiccan religion" (i.e. "the Christian faith")
Wiccan/s ~ person/people who practice Wicca (i.e. Christian/s)

[Thayet]

Thanks you two, thats really interesting.

I know that they perform some spells, although some would be critical about whether or not it is a spell, but what sort of spells exactly would be practised?

If there are any wiccans here, that would really help if you could tell me some of the things you do :)

I've always wanted to get a book on wicca, but I've never really seen any locally, but if I do I know I'll get it.

[Cat]

I always thought Wiccan meant 'witch'. Particularly a male witch. But then a non-Harry Potter forum thrived with the beliefs and now I'm greatly confused.

It's a similar subject so I hope you don't mind if I ask it here - what is the Pagan religion? I saw somebody say he was a Pagan priest... but didn't Pagan originally mean something like 'savage'? Paganism was everything that wasn't Christian to the Roman Catholics wasn't it? So how do you have organised Paganism, does anybody know?

[Emma]

See attached signature:


I will find somethings for you.

from: Forgotten History - Friday, November 29, 2002
"Little known facts and overlooked history"



The Salem Witch Trials
By Denis Mueller

Abigal William’s had been acting strange lately. It was a cold
winter in 1692 but that couldn’t explain her flopping like a
bird around the house, followed by her screams that a witch
was trying to get her. Her neighbors were shocked by her
behavior and soon other children were acting in a similar
fashion, claiming that they were possessed by witches. Thus
began one of the infamous incidents in American history and
when it was all over, 19 men and women, plus two dogs, were
executed for witchcraft. The mass hysteria caused another 55
people to repent their sins and an additional 130 people
awaited trial before the whole thing was over.

The incident started when Abigail, and her nine year old cousin
Elizabeth, read a book about witches by Cotton Mather. The two
girls blamed their slave Tituba, who hailed from Barbados, for
the whole thing. Tituba believed the only way she could avoid
hanging was to plead guilty to the charges. She spoke about
an encounter with a thin white man who showed her book with
the names of nine Salem witches in it. This impossible story
led to the witch hunt that followed.


Tales of witches were not new. In the 14 century, several
thousands had been executed because of their suspected witch-
craft. Witches had appeared in European folklore, including
the old bard William Shakespeare, throughout the 15th century.
Ten people had been hanged for witchcraft in England in 1600,
so the idea of witches was not that strange in 1692. But the
actions of children who came to understand that they could
accuse anyone of witchcraft were quite different.

The witch hunts moved forward. No one was safe. Critics of the
hunt complained that all of those who were accused had some
previous dispute with the children or their family. The whole
thing took on a bizarre life of its own as people started to
confess to the charges so that they could avoid the hangmen’s
noose. The trials began on June 2 and the newly appointed
judges soon became part of the hysteria. Race became part of
the proceedings as one accuser claimed that one named Goody
Nurse had brought a mysterious black man with her claiming he
was there to cause her to "tempt god."


The judges and the jury ignored all defense evidence even if
the evidence proved the defendants innocence. When a few people
were acquitted the children began to scream again and the
judges soon ordered new trial where the defendants were soon
found guilty. The hangings began on July 19th while the jails
of Salem became so full that suspected witches had to transfer
to other towns.

The trial became an outrage to many but the last straw was when
the children accused the governor’s wife of witchcraft. The
governor was furious and a special grand jury was convened to
deal with the situation. They quickly threw out more than
hounded charges of witchcraft. The court system was overhauled
as well and drastically improved, it would be hard to be any
worse, and the testimony of children began to be suspected.
America would see many witch hunts in the future. They would
take on different forms but that mob mentality became a part
of American culture. The McCarthy/Nixon era of the 1950’s would
be the worse but our history is full of stories of irrational
mass behavior.

Infamous Trials: Bruce Chadwick

[Emma]

TO PROTECT & BRING PEACE AND HARMONY TO YOUR HOME



Take equal parts of Betony and Lavender (or what ever you prefer),
blend
them together in a mortar.
After mixing well, charge the herbal mixture.Using a small amount,
sprinkle
across the doorstep. All the while, you should be concentrating on
the vivid
barrier and repeat the following incantation:



"This doorstep with its welcome ways,be guarded by a shield of rays
to guard this home by day and night,protect it with this door of
white.
Let nothing enter not of good,and those within do as they would.
The aura left by herb and spell,will safely seal ths entrance well."


There are several shops on-line that you can purchase the supplies from. You can also buy books on wiccans at Borders book stores, Amazon.com, and other on-line places. If you'd like more information. PM me.

[HogwartsChaplain]

Thanks for posting, Emma.

I've heard of Wiccan covens (a group of Wiccans) and also solitary Wiccans. Can you tell us a bit about both?

[Emma]

A Coven is a group of people. This includes teachers and students. (As in a church setting)

A Solitary (me) is one who practices alone and not in a coven. I practice Green Witchcraft. (Nature)

Some think that the Pentacle is Evil. It is not.

In Wicca, the pentacle represents the element of Earth and is a convenient tool which to place amulets, charms and othe ritual items.
It can be hung over doors and windows to act as protection.

The top point is Spirit.
The left point is Water.
The right point is Earth
The bottom left point is Fire.
The bottom right point is Air.

[Emma]

Here's something for the upcoming season.

Yule

Yule or Winter Solstice occurs on the longest night of the year, when the
Sun enters the astrological sign of Capricorn. This is the darkest and
coldest time of year, but as soon as the Solstice passes the days grow
longer and the nights shorter. Yule is the turning point of the wheel of the
Year, the Sun is symbolically reborn.

Yule is a celebration of faith and hope. In the quiet dark of winter's womb,
new ideas and creations start to gestate. We sit still in silence, and
accept who we are, conceive new goals, and cultivate trust and hope.

During this season many people try to strengthen the light. Christians and
Pagans alike bring in trees to decorate with lights and ornaments, to remind
us that life goes on even in the depths of Winter. Jewish people light
candles for eight nights, adding one more each night to the Chanukah
Menorah. Africans celebrate Kwanzaa, lighting candles for seven nights to
symbolize the qualities of unity, self-determination, collective work and
responsibility, co-operative economics, purpose, creativity, and faith.

At Yule the Goddess is the Dark Mother. She is Mother Night, Mother Winter.
Because death is always followed by rebirth, the Crone Goddess of Samhain
becomes the Mother who gives birth to the year. She is giver of gifts and
the teacher of lessons. Her greatest gifts are given to us freely, and she
loves us simply because we are.

Old and tired by the longest night, the God goes to sleep in the arms of the
Goddess, and is reborn at dawn as the Sun, the New Year, and the fresh
possibilities reborn in us all. He brings all of our hopes and wishes and
dreams with him, for he is the Giver of Gifts. From him we learn to rest and
be renewed when we are tired, and to trust even when life seems hard, that
change will come.

Correspondences:

Direction...North
Colors...red, green, gold, white
Trees...Alder, pine, fir
Herbs...bayberry, cedar, pine, rosemary, frankincense, myrrh
Stones...turquoise, ruby
Spell-work...rebirth, fertility, new beginnings
Foods...fruit cakes, nuts, and meat

[Nydia]

Thayet, thank you for starting this thread. It gives me a reason to ramble on at great length about one of my favorite subjects!

I've been a practicing Wiccan for nearly 15 years -- 8 solitary, and coming up on 7 years (at Yule) with my coven. I'm a first degree priestess of the Dragonstar Family, and soon will be elevated to second degree.

Emma's comments about the pentacle were very good, but I'd like to point out that different traditions ascribe the points of the pentagram to different elements. In my tradition, I was taught:

Top = spirit
Upper left = water
Lower left = fire
Lower right = earth
Upper right = air

The mnemonic my priestess gave us for remembering these attributes was as follows: "Water falls on Fire, which is on the Earth and rises to the Air." (Spirit isn't mentioned, because it's a given that the top point refers to Spirit.) Oddly, this mnemonic goes around the pentagram widdershins (counterclockwise), which is unusual for Wiccans. We tend to work deosil (clockwise, sunwise) unless there is a good reason for going widdershins.

BTW -- "pentacle" refers specifically to a tool, as Emma described, a round, often wooden disk, which is placed on the altar and associated with the element of Earth, on which items can be placed to be charged or consecrated. A pentacle may or may not have a pentagram on it. It might have a different symbol, but the tool is still called a pentacle. "pentagram" refers to any five-pointed interlaced star, which is the symbol of the Wiccan religion overall. Usually, the pentagram is inscribed (i.e., inside a circle).

Emma says that she practices "green witchcraft," which she says relates to nature. ALL witchcraft is related to nature. "Green Witchcraft" is the name of a specific solitary tradition (denomination), written about by author Ann Moura, in a trilogy of books called (appropriately enough), Green Witchcraft (I, II and III).

A word about the words:

Wicca -- an umbrella term referring to all traditions (denominations) of witchcraft derived from Gerald Gardner's publications in the 50s and 60s. It is unclear whether Gardner cobbled together this belief system from personal experience, training with occult societies such as the Golden Dawn and OTO, and anthropological research by Margaret Alice Murray (The Witch Cult in Western Europe and God of the Witches) OR whether he was trained by a family tradition coven in the New Forest of England. It may be a combination of the two. There is evidence both ways.

Wiccan -- a practitioner of any tradition of Wicca

Witch -- well, this one gets a bit touchy. Some people will tell you that if you practice witchcraft at all, you're a Witch. I disagree. If I practice piano, does that make me a pianist? No. So merely practicing witchcraft does not make one a Witch. "Witch" is a title that must be earned, through study, hard work, etc. It takes time -- and that amount of time is different for everyone.

When I refer to "Witch" as a title, it doesn't mean that we call one another "Witch Nydia" or "Witch Lhianna" -- although some do, most don't. I mean it's a term of honor, respect, and recognition.

"Witch" or "wiccan" can be used to refer to either gender. A male witch is a witch. A female witch is a witch. A male witch is NOT a warlock. The word "warlock" is derived from either Gaelic, Old German, or Old English (I can't remember which) -- "waerlogge" -- which means OATHBREAKER.

Thayet, you were asking what the gods and goddesses of Wicca are. The answer is YES. You name a god or goddess and you can safely bet that some Wiccan, somewhere, has used that god/dess aspect in their rituals. Some mix and match, some adhere to specific pantheons. It's a highly individualized and personalized religion.

Dragonslayer said that he thought Wiccans worship nature. That's not technically true. We honor and revere nature, but I don't know if it can honestly be said that we "worship" anything. To us, everything that is alive is sacred. We're rather pantheistic (or in some cases, like me, panentheistic) in our outlook. Pantheism recognizes that the Sacred is made up of everything; panentheism says likewise, but that the Sacred is more than the sum of its parts.

Cat mentioned the word "pagan" and said she met someone who called himself a "pagan priest." "Pagan" is even more of an umbrella term than "Wiccan," so for someone to call themselves a "pagan priest" is like saying a "nondenominational minister," I guess.

But the word "pagan" did NOT originally mean "savage." It's derived from a Latin word (paganus, s.; pagani, pl.) which meant "country dweller." Likewise "heathen" meant one who lived on the heath. It came to refer to non-Christians mainly because those who lived in cities were often the first in an area to convert to Christianity (particularly the royalty, nobility, and the gentry, in that order). The peasants held onto their pre-Christian beliefs much longer.

Morgoth -- great research. I've not been too impressed with "religioustolerance.org," but you've obviously spent considerable time there and found some worthwhile information.

Evelyn -- I appreciate your openmindedness to this subject.

Emma's post on Yule was likewise very good and informative, but again, we have a difference in lore, training, etc. Just a minor one, really.

Her statement of "Old and tired by the longest night, the God goes to sleep in the arms of the Goddess, and is reborn at dawn." Other traditions view the God as having died at Samhain (near Halloween), with the final harvest (we celebrate three harvest festivals -- Lughnassad, Mabon, and Samhain). The period from Samhain to Yule is thus called the "death season." The Sun Child is then reborn of the Mother Goddess at Yule.

A word on the timing of the holidays:

you might notice that Yule takes place very close to Christmas. So which came first? Yule and many other Winter Solstice holidays (particularly those associated with sun gods) pre-dated Christianity by thousands of years in most cases. Scholars and theologians will even tell you that based on biblical and historical evidence, Jesus could NOT have been born in the winter. But because the people of many different cultures were already celebrating the (re)birth of their god at that time of year, the Christian church in the mid-4th century selected December 25 as the date of Christmas. On the Julian calendar, which was still in use at that time, the date of the winter solstice would have fallen very close to (and usually right on) December 25.

Whew! That was long! I think I'll take a break for now.

[Emma]

Thanks!

I've been searching my files for a story from someone in one of my wiccan groups, about what witches are, as told from a mother to a daughter. But so far I haven't found it. I thought it would be interesting to post here.

I'm looking...Found it...

What Witches Do:

My little girl came home from school the other day,
and right away I could see that something was wrong.
Her eyes were red rimmed, and her cheeks were wet with
tears. She was sniffing, and trying to hold it all in.


I took her into my arms, and sat her down
on my lap on our couch, holding her close and
comforting her.

When she had settled a bit, I asked her to tell mommy
what was wrong.

Well, it seemed that the kids in her school had been
teasing her. They'd been telling her that her mommy
was a witch, and that she was evil for being born from
a witch, her soul destined for hell.

"Mommy, tell me it's not true. You're not really a
mean old witch, are you? You don't do bad, evil
things, right? You don't really do magic?".

Now, I could have told her something just to comfort
her, but I believe in truth, and this precious little
soul deserved to know what was real and true about her
mommy.

"Well honey" I told her, "it is partly true. Mommy is
a Witch, but I would only do things some folks might
say are bad if I had to do it to protect you, or
daddy, or anyone else that I care about from people
harming them."

She tensed up on me a bit at this point. Mommy was
really a witch? How could this be? Mommy was so nice?
I knew that I had to tell her a bit more.

"Sweetie, witches aren't bad people. They are just
people that do things that some other folks don't do
or know about. Now, there are some bad people who are
witches, but they are few and far between. Just like
people in any religion".

I could see the confusion on her face at this. I knew
that I'd have alot of talking to do this day.

"Being a witch is a religion mommy? I don't
understand."

"Well, not for everyone sweetie" I told her. "But it
is for your daddy and me."

This brought yet another look of confusion to her
face.

"But daddy's a boy. Witches aren't boys, they're
girls. Does that mean that daddy is a
Warlock?"

I couldn't help but laugh a little at the sincerity of
her statement.

"No sweetie. Most of us don't use the term Warlock.
And witches are only girls on TV and in the movies and
some books. In real life, a boy can be a witch too,
if it's right for his spirit."

"Alot of what you think you know from what you see,
what you hear, and what you read about witches came
from a long time ago. Certain people thought that
witches were bad and no one should be allowed to be
one, and they were very powerfull people, so other
people listened to them. Do you remember when you
learned in school about how they used to think that
black people were bad and stupid? Well, alot of people
over alot of years had to work very hard to change
that view of them. While the circumstances are
different for us, it's kind of the same".

"Am I a witch too mommy?" she asked in all
seriousness.

I had to chuckle. "Sweet one, you might become a witch
one day, you have the spirit for it, but that will be
by your choice. You can follow any path you choose.
The only thing that your daddy and I care about is
that you grow into a good person."

"Do you fly around on a broom mommy?"

This one really made me laugh, although I should have
been expecting it.

"No sweetie, mommy doesn't fly around on a broom.
Mommy drives a Pontiac. The broom flying is another
myth that people believe, maybe based on what some
people thought many years ago. Mommy has a witches
broom, that's my broom right there by the front door.
It's called my besom . Mommy's witches broom is
magickal, but it's used to magickly cleanse our house,
and it magickly helps to protect us and keep us safe.
That's why it always sits by the front door."

"But mommy, if you're a witch, what do witches do?"

"Well honey, for your daddy and me, it's our religion.
You know alot about God from school and your friends,
right? Well, we have God too, but He looks different
to us than he does to most people. We also know that
in nature, most things have two sides, a male and a
female, and along with God, we have his other half,
the Goddess. Two halves that make a whole. Since God
is nature, that just makes sense to us."

We also honor nature, the Earth, and the life of all
things around us. We follow the seasons as they
change, draw from the energy of the world around us,
and add our energy to the world. It's like we're all a
part of one big whole."

"I think I understand mommy, but I still don't know
what witches do."

"Well baby, at each full moon, we honor the Earth as
our Mother, and at 8 points through the year, we honor
the different changes in the world around us. These
are our big times, but we can also do little things
each and every day to get in touch with what we call
the Lord and Lady, around us, and inside of us as
well. Talk to them, ask their help, or just feel them
with us."

"Like going to church and like praying mommy? Just in
a different way?"

"Exactly sweetie. You are a very smart little girl."

"But I still don't understand. What do you and daddy
do that makes you different from other people, I mean
beside the way you go to church?"

"Well sweetie, we care about nature. We care about the
spirits of the plants and animals. We recycle, we
clean up trash, we don't use things that will hurt
others or the planet around us. That's why, when you
see mommy in her garden, I always ask the plants if I
can take them, and thank them for giving us life and
beauty."

"Mommy, that's silly. How does that make you a witch?
Lots of people recycle and clean up trash. And old
Mrs.
Findley always talks to her plants. Lots of people
worry about the planet. That doesn't make you any
different."

"I guess you're right sweetie. Well, we also work our
magick. Sometimes when we really need something, and
that's need sweetie, not just wanting something. It
has to be very very important,something needed to live
for us to use magick. Most of the time, your daddy and
I just use our magick to make us safe, and to help
other people in need, like those who are sick, sad, or
hurt. We think about it really hard, see what we want
done in our minds, and send our energy out to help
make it happen."

"Mommy, that sounds like what alot of people do. They
pray for things to happen, or to help other people.
Are other people working magick too?"

"I guess they are at that. Sometimes I forget that
sweetie. They just think of it differently than we do.
Thank you for reminding me sweet one."

"Mommy, it doesn't sound like witches are any
different from anyone else. They just do some things
different. I think they are just regular people."

"Yes they are honey. Regular people who do special
things."

"Mommy, I think I want to be a Witch when I grow up.
Can you teach me how?"

Tears came to my eyes as I hugged this special little
soul close to me.

Never Again The Burning ..... !!!

[Cat]

Originally posted by Nydia

But the word "pagan" did NOT originally mean "savage." It's derived from a Latin word (paganus, s.; pagani, pl.) which meant "country dweller." Likewise "heathen" meant one who lived on the heath. It came to refer to non-Christians mainly because those who lived in cities were often the first in an area to convert to Christianity (particularly the royalty, nobility, and the gentry, in that order). The peasants held onto their pre-Christian beliefs much longer.


Oops, I meant 'heathen'. But the Romans told tales of how uncivilised and how violent the Pagans were, depicting them as savages. The conquered realms became 'Pagan' territory, regardless of the actual culture. I don't understand what people mean now when they call themselves Pagan... which Pagan religion would that be? I suspect most 'Pagans' mean the ancient Celtic religion.

[Emma]

Heathen A member of a religion that does not acknowledge Christianity, Judaism, or Islam.

Pagan Any follower follower of a non-Christian and usually multideity religion.

It all comes form the misunderstandings of where people come from. If someone does not understand something, it gets jumbled, and misunderstood, and then it is down the line evil and uncivilized. People who don't understand or don't wish to.

[Nydia]

"Pagan" and "Heathen" have both come to mean "godless" because of the context in which they are used (at least in the general vernacular).

What Emma just gave are a couple of dictionary definitions.

What the Romans meant when they called people heathen and pagan and depicted them as savages -- well, they considered themselves to be the end-all, be-all of civilization, and they forcefully conquered the people in the British Isles, most of whom, at the time, still lived in tribal situations.

They thought them violent and barbaric because the people resisted having their homeland overtaken by conquerors. Well, if YOUR country were invaded by a superpower and you were told you suddenly had to behave THIS way instead of the way you were raised to, and if your people were forced into slavery in lead mines or raped by soldiers, wouldn't you resist? Wouldn't you possibly get violent in response?

That's why the Romans called the native Brits "savages." That was never the true derivation of the word.

[Cat]

Oh, I know a lot of the history. But I'm stuck in the present. Does anybody know what the modern day 'Paganist' religion is?

[Nydia]

"Pagan" currently is an umbrella term for a group of religions which encompasses Wicca, witchcraft, druidry, goddess-worship, and other earth-oriented religions.

Dictionary definitions will say that it encompasses any non-Judeo-Christian (which includes Islam) religion, but I think that's too broad -- at least given the way individual religions identify themselves.

In my first post on this topic, I said specifically in response to your comments:

"Cat mentioned the word "pagan" and said she met someone who called himself a "pagan priest." "Pagan" is even more of an umbrella term than "Wiccan," so for someone to call themselves a "pagan priest" is like saying a "nondenominational minister," I guess."

Hope that helps.

Native Americans, for example, who practice their tribal religions, generally do not consider themselves pagan, even though they fit under the dictionary definition (and even my narrower definition) of "pagan."

Shinto practitioners would likewise be considered pagan by dictionary definition, but I don't believe they identify as such.

But there is no "pagan religion" in and of itself.

[Nydia]

PLEASE NOTE!

As you may have noticed from my posts so far, I mention that Wicca is a very individualized and personalized religion/spiritual path. For this reason, answers that Emma may differ greatly from what I say which may differ greatly from what other Wiccans who are members of COS Forums may say.

This does not mean that any of us are "right," "wrong," "confused," or "posers." It just means we have different training, experience, perspectives, and methods of practicing. All are considered valid (within reason, of course -- we DO have a few no-nos).

[Cat]

Originally posted by Nydia
"Pagan" currently is an umbrella term for a group of religions which encompasses Wicca, witchcraft, druidry, goddess-worship, and other earth-oriented religions.

Dictionary definitions will say that it encompasses any non-Judeo-Christian (which includes Islam) religion, but I think that's too broad -- at least given the way individual religions identify themselves.

In my first post on this topic, I said specifically in response to your comments:

"Cat mentioned the word "pagan" and said she met someone who called himself a "pagan priest." "Pagan" is even more of an umbrella term than "Wiccan," so for someone to call themselves a "pagan priest" is like saying a "nondenominational minister," I guess."

Hope that helps.

Native Americans, for example, who practice their tribal religions, generally do not consider themselves pagan, even though they fit under the dictionary definition (and even my narrower definition) of "pagan."

Shinto practitioners would likewise be considered pagan by dictionary definition, but I don't believe they identify as such.

But there is no "pagan religion" in and of itself.

And that's all very interesting, but I'm really trying to ask what do you suppose the ones who call themselves Pagan might mean, these days? Celtic? But I'm not sure there is much known for certain about Celtic deities. I suspect it might be the adopted term for a made-up religion, if you know what I mean.

[Nydia]

Cat, I just described to you what the word "pagan" means to people who currently identify as such. It's an umbrella term. It's not a religion in and of itself.

I am pagan (I don't capitalize it; some do). I am also Wiccan. I am also a Witch. I am a First Degree Priestess of Dragon's Grove Coven of the Dragonstar Family and an elder of the Well of Avalon Wicce Solemnis tradition. Each of these designations has gotten more and more specific. I don't know how much better I can get it across.

[Nydia]

Originally posted by Cat
So how do you have organised Paganism, does anybody know?

You DON'T. Pagan religions are NOT organized religions. One of the reasons many people become pagan is through disillusionment with "organized" religions. "Organized religion" often translates into "BIG BUSINESS RELIGION." As in, "LET'S MAKE MONEY FROM SPIRITUALITY."

The various religions that fall under the "pagan" umbrella are, by and large, mystery religions (as opposed to the revealed religions such as Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc.). Much the same as Zen Buddhism, for example, you cannot truly learn these religions through books -- you must experience them. You are not spoon-fed what you should believe in order to be a member of a pagan spirituality. There is no "Holy Pagan/Wiccan/Druid Scripture." There ARE lots of books ABOUT the subject, but none rises to the level of Holy Writ. And many of the books on the market today about Wicca and other pagan paths are total (or near total) crap. So much so that you pretty much need to be very well-versed in the Craft already so you can separate the wheat from the chaff.

[Nydia]

Now for what I came to say: Hope nobody minds a slight overlap between this post and Emma's from a couple days ago, but I just posted on another board about Yule, its history and traditions, so I thought I'd bring it over here, too. Having just taught my Wheel of the Year class to my student coveners, it was still pretty fresh in my mind (plus I had my class outline handy).

With the winter holidays upon us, I thought it might be an appropriate time to post some information about the Yule holiday celebrated by Wiccans.

The word "Yule" is derived from a Norse word "Iul" which means "wheel" (i.e., Wheel of the Year (pagan), Wheel of Life (Buddhist)).

The holiday marks the longest night/shortest day of the year, the Winter solstice. While we consider the winter solstice to be the beginning of the season, for the Celts winter began at Samhain (near Halloween), hence another name for the holiday: Midwinter. To the Celts, the equinoxes and solstices marked the midpoints of the seasons, rather than the beginning.

Yule was also the time that folklore describes the rebirth of the sacrificed god (sacrificed at Samhain, the final harvest). The Sun Child, as he is called at this time, will grow to become the lover/husband of the Maiden goddess in the spring, will reach his peak of power at Midsummer, and be slain yet again come harvest time.

Among the traditions associated with Yule is staying up all night to greet the rising sun, leaving a lamp or candle burning in the East window all night (to encourage the sun's return), and singing the sun back (this was paired with staying up all night, then singing songs just before dawn to encourage the sun to return).

Among the symbols of Yule are evergreen trees, holly, mistletoe, and other things that we recognize as now being associated with Christmas.

The evergreen tree symbolized everlasting life, and a promise that the sun would return. It was often decorated with candles (yes, live ones!), fruit (real), and other reminders of the summer weather. Decorating the tree in this way, as well as the traditions described above, were forms of sympathetic magick to encourage the sun's return at a time when it was believed such things were necessary.

Holly had similar meaning as it also stays green after being cut. Actually, cut holly stays green far longer than a cut evergreen tree.

Mistletoe gathered at this time was mature and was used as a fertility charm, hence the tradition of kissing under the mistletoe. The white berries of mistletoe represent semen (Hey, I warned you this is a fertility religion!). Immature mistletoe, BTW, is often gathered at midsummer and used as a protection charm. At that time of year, there are no berries on it.

The colors red and green are associated with this holiday. Red for the mother goddess who gives birth to the Sun Child, green for the God (Jack in the Green, Robin of the Greenwood, etc.)

So, isn't this just a cheap imitation of Christmas? NOPE!

Long before Christianity became a powerful force in the world (indeed, long before it even existed), there were celebrations of the winter solstice and the return of the sun (or sun god). It wasn't until the mid-fourth century that the Catholic church set the date of Christmas as December 25. Prior to that, it had been celebrated anywhere from December to April, and modern scholars will tell you that there's no way, based on historical and biblical evidence, that Jesus was born in the winter. However, given the similar mythologies surrounding Jesus and several sun gods (particularly Mithras), the date of his celebration was set as December 25, which was previously the date of Dies Natalis Invicti Solis -- The Birthday of the Unconquerable Sun, as well as the celebration of Mithras, a Persian god who was said to have been born of a virgin, in a stable (some accounts say a cave), who had twelve disciples, shared an agape feast with them of bread and wine, etc., etc.

At the time that the date of Christmas was set as December 25, that was probably the date upon which the Solstice fell most years. These days, it generally falls on December 21, although it can vary from December 20-23, based on when the sun enters the astrological sign of Capricorn. The change in dates is a result of the change from the Julian Calendar, which was still in use until the late 16th century (and even later in many places, up until the 20th century in most of Eastern Europe) to the Gregorian Calendar, devised by Pope Gregory XIII.

Interestingly, the designation of Jesus' birthday as the day of celebration is one of only two instances where the church celebrates the BIRTH of a major figure of that religion. Most celebrations mark the death of a religious figure (generally a Saint). John the Baptist and Jesus are the only two whose BIRTHS are celebrated (John being the harbinger of the birth of the messiah).

Also interesting is the fact that John the Baptist's feast day (birthday) is set as June 24, or Midsummer on the Julian Calendar, with Jesus' celebration 6 months later. This reflects the pre-Christian folklore regarding the Oak King and the Holly King. The Oak King is the god of the waxing year, whose reign lasts from Midwinter to Midsummer (Jesus), while the Holly King reigns over the waning year, Midsummer to Midwinter (John).

Depictions of John the Baptist, also known as John from the Wilderness, often show him with very satyr-like features (satyr = goat-legged, horned man -- similar to Pan, Bacchus, and Dionysus from Greco-Roman mythology

[Xikum]

Thayet- Glad to see this topic!
Nydia & Emma & Morgoth---Thanks for all your well-explained info!!
It saved me from having to write much ;) & that is a concern---
I'm new here, & don't have much time, so I won't be a big 'poster'. Well, my posts will probably be relatively long, but few.
Being Wiccan for about 25 years now, I would only add a few more things, though there is sooo much to say:

An old saying was that if you had n# people in a coven, you would have n# +1 opinions!! Which is to say, since our religion is one that gives the basics only, and depends on our own informed intelligence, we all have different interpretations. Also, Many of us tend to move between solitary and coven or circle groups, at different times (as have I).

I have always preferred Wicca because it was based on ancient traditions. It seems to me that ALL major religions have the same core A+B+C 'truths', and then differ in the beliefs that I would call D, E, F...& so on, that they add on as additional 'required' core beliefs. Wicca Only has the A+B+C as main beliefs; anyone can hold any other personal values, and still be Wiccan. We just accept that Everyone is like that-- that is the path each spirit found that was right for them.

It is Not a religion for someone who wants to be told what to do, in explicit terms. It Is a religion for people who can sense the right behind core beliefs, then recognize that the rest is small stuff, and accept that may be differrent for everyone...and all can be right!

Wicca does have a Very strict rule about not harming anyone...including your self as someone, too.
And rules that we do our best to do good.

When I see others quote the Rede, "An it harm none, do as you wilt". I always get the feeling that those who are not Wiccan, really don't get a clue of what that Really means!
That is Very Demanding!!!!
Think about that:
The impact of your actions on yourself and others in daily living,
the choices you make, are the responsibility you bear.
Your choices and actions are your responsibility alone to "answer for". There is no set specific step-by-step "do this & you go to heaven". The supreme being, as represented by god/dess, has made us so that we have the responsibility to learn & do what is for the best, throughout our life.

Re: heaven/afterlife: there is not one set belief ...though most do have some form of after-this-life belief, and many believe in some form of reincarnation. Some believe that we are all part of the universe, getting to know itself & it's capabilities in all it's permutations. More to say, but this is too long already, more than I meant to write! e-mail me if you want to hear any more ;)

[Cat]

Originally posted by Nydia
Cat, I just described to you what the word "pagan" means to people who currently identify as such. It's an umbrella term. It's not a religion in and of itself.


Then what did the Pagan priest in his Arthurian garb mean? What does anybody mean when they say that their religion is 'Paganism' (as opposed to being of a 'Pagan' religion). You've thoroughly explained what you mean, but I still haven't the foggiest what THEY mean. I'm not some dim twit who is constantly misunderstanding you, despite appearances, but you don't understand how many people I meet who call themselves Pagan and seemingly don't know what Paganism is. I'd like to know what that smaller group means. You don't have to know (I'm not sure even they themselves do).

The problem is, I can't ask the question clearly without being offensive. So I'll be offensive... what do the posers mean?

[Xikum]

Ah. 'posers' Heck if I know. But, as a result of my experience, I have some observations. A few years ago, I was part of a circle that had once monthly open meetings, in addition to the regular gatherings. "Open" is a way of saying anyone can come, they did not need to be a member. Also, I was high priestess of a coven for several years long ago. So, what I have to say may represent something that others have seen, or it may not. Others, please feel free to add your input---I'd like to see what it's like out there in circle now, as I've been solitary for some time.

I think that there are many different 'categories' of what you may call posers, but Not all are posers who may seem that way.

Some are just people looking for the religion that feels true to them. They are seekers, coming to try to find where their heart resonates. As such, they come with only what preconceptions society has given them, and may act oddly at first. Even if they actually read and researched. Until they learn that all the researching they did only confused them, since so much of what is written is not representative. They need a bit of experience to learn how to tell chaff from seed, so to speak. Any answers you get from them is likely to sound confused, because they are, too.

There are those that are recent, new converts, so to speak...and they are often the most outspoken. Sometimes this is good, but also sometimes they are the most abrasive. They have new ideas, and that is good for shaking up and providing new growth and opportunity to the group. But, some bring such devisiveness, and seem to have it all wrong... They have some agenda of their own, and try to make the coven into their image.
Of course, that works about as well as trying to herd cats.
But if you run into one of them and try to chat, you won't get a very clear real picture of Paganism of any sort.

Some are just young persons rebelling from their families wanting shock value.

Others are young persons who are 'trying on' diffferent ways, until they find their own way. Much like the first group, but younger, less experience, less likely to have researched and so may come in with odd concepts. Again, until they decide to become serious, and have learned a bit more, the answers you get may not be helpful.

We've even had a few brave, though really frightening souls, fundamentalists who came with anger, fear and quaking in their boots. One couple came to 'spy' on us and another time we had some come to try to 'save' us. I really have to laugh, though that's not so nice, but the first couple had the luck(?) to pick the night that one of our most demonic appearing, though in truth a very gentle man was leading the ritual. Try telling them that you have NO use, belief, anything to do with Satanism, and that the horned god or green man reperesents the vital life force...(sigh). I imagine they had quite the story. And the latter came at a time that we were having a lesser ritual, so it was all very laid back. Since they didn't get to see any much, they may have been disappointed or bored, I don't know. They left quickly after the 4 elements were called, we had to briefly reopen and close the circle.....which is all very well, as they had sat with silent frowns and disapproving; and least most of our ritual was left to ourselves. At least, no one showed up to picket the magic supply shop afterwards. I'm sure either of these would have different stories of what Wicca or paganism is about.

And, sad to say, I have seen those who I truly believe to be mentally unbalanced, in a manic or schizophrenic way. They may come to us simply because we are gentle enough to not shut them out, as other religions may, due to their odd behavior. But they sometimes have very odd concepts of what we are about....and anyone talking with them would get an earful of like material. One can only hope they get some healing or comfort from their path.

Mind you these are much the small minority.
They stand out so in my memory because of that.
But they may also be the most visible folk, as the rest of us stay safely closeted, except to friends and family, unless they are in Very Secure jobs---and those are few and far between nowadays.
So, while they are a small minority of pagans/wiccans/etc., they may be the larger fraction of what outsiders see, thus giving an incorrect perception of our ways.

[HogwartsChaplain]

Originally posted by Nydia
Long before Christianity became a powerful force in the world (indeed, long before it even existed), there were celebrations of the winter solstice and the return of the sun (or sun god). It wasn't until the mid-fourth century that the Catholic church set the date of Christmas as December 25. Prior to that, it had been celebrated anywhere from December to April, and modern scholars will tell you that there's no way, based on historical and biblical evidence, that Jesus was born in the winter.
The early Christians chose the festival of Saturnalia to celebrate the birth of Christ because the Romans thought they were celebrating the Roman festival-- it was a way to commemorate the birth of Christ in a secret way, and, therefore, avoid arrest and persecution.

The birth of Jesus was celebrated at different times in different early communities. It was set on the Roman church calendar in 336 AD. There still are variations of the date of Christmas among Christian communities. In Jerusalem, Christmas is celebrated on four different days; many Christians there celebrate all four, in the interest of ecumenism.

[Nydia]

Originally posted by Cat
Then what did the Pagan priest in his Arthurian garb mean? What does anybody mean when they say that their religion is 'Paganism' (as opposed to being of a 'Pagan' religion). You've thoroughly explained what you mean, but I still haven't the foggiest what THEY mean. I'm not some dim twit who is constantly misunderstanding you, despite appearances, but you don't understand how many people I meet who call themselves Pagan and seemingly don't know what Paganism is. I'd like to know what that smaller group means. You don't have to know (I'm not sure even they themselves do).

The problem is, I can't ask the question clearly without being offensive. So I'll be offensive... what do the posers mean?

No, you're not being offensive, you've just had the misfortune to run into what you quite properly have termed "posers." A poser is just that: a poser. They don't know what paganism is, probably, and don't realize that it is an umbrella term.

It might also be possible that they are still seeking a more definite spiritual path, but know that some form of paganism is right for them.

The "pagan priest in Arthurian garb" was very likely an SCA member, many of whom are some kind of pagan, but many of whom are not, or just like to pretend they are. SCA'ers tend to have LOTS of disposable income and an interest in a particular period of history.

Or, it may simply be that this person did not want to further identify himself.

As I said earlier, "pagan priest" could be a legitimate term, just like "nondenominational minister." Most of us who are "out," however, tend to use more specific designations.

Having not met the person in question, however, I can't say for certain what his personal beliefs are, and neither can anyone else. You'd have to ask him.

Welcome, Xikum! And thank you for that very good post regarding the Rede. I've been stressing to my students that very point -- just how difficult it is to truly live by the Rede. We got into a rather deep discussion about Kant's Perfect Duties v. Bentham's Utilitarian theory on that one!

[Nydia]

Evelyn,

In my research, I also came across the Eastern Orthodox practice of celebrating Christmas on Twelfth Night (January 6), as that is supposedly (according to my source, please correct me if I'm wrong) the baptism of Jesus. However, that still acknowledges December 25 as his actual birth, right?

Question: why is the baptismal date (Jan. 6) so far removed from the date of Jesus' first presentation at temple (Candlemas -- Feb. 2)? Is this actually a common Jewish practice, to have a baptismal rite for the child, presumably in the home, prior to the mother being permitted to return to temple?

[HogwartsChaplain]

Well, this seems a bit off-topic for this thread ;) , but I'll answer here anyway, since you've asked. Good questions!

Originally posted by Nydia
In my research, I also came across the Eastern Orthodox practice of celebrating Christmas on Twelfth Night (January 6), as that is supposedly (according to my source, please correct me if I'm wrong) the baptism of Jesus. However, that still acknowledges December 25 as his actual birth, right?
Not being Orthodox, I'll quote from a few sources that help me understand the customs of other Christians:

from Honoring Our Neighbor's Faith
Christmas is observed on January 7 by some Orthodox churches, notably the Russian, Ukrainian, Serbian, and Bulgarian, since they still follow the old Julian calendar. The Greek, Syrian, and Romanian churches, having adopted the Gregorian calendar, celebrate Christmas on December 25.
In other words, some Orthodox Christians celebrate the birth of Christ on December 25, and others celebrate it on January 7.

from The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church
In the East the closely related Feast of the Epiphany (6 January), which commemorated also the Baptism of Christ, was at first the more important; but in the later 4th century, it was connected with the Nativity , especially in Syria, and by the middle of the 5th century most of the East had adopted 25 December.... In the Armenian Church, 6 January is still observed as Christmas Day.
So the Armenian Catholic church celebrates Christmas on January 6.

There is another community that uses another date, but I can't quite remember which; perhaps it is the Coptic Christians, originally from Egypt?

[b]
Question: why is the baptismal date (Jan. 6) so far removed from the date of Jesus' first presentation at temple (Candlemas -- Feb. 2)? Is this actually a common Jewish practice, to have a baptismal rite for the child, presumably in the home, prior to the mother being permitted to return to temple?
The baptism of Jesus happened when he was an adult, by John the Baptist in the Jordan River.

The Presentation of Jesus was when his parents first took him to the Temple in Jerusalem, to offer God a sacrifice for the birth of a first-born son, and for the purification of Mary after childbirth.

Jews don't have a rite for baptism. Male children are ritually circumcised on the eighth day after their birth, as a sign of their membership in the Jewish community.

January 6 actually is the date of Epiphany, when we commemorate the arrival of the three wise men at Bethlehem.

[Nydia]

Thanks, Evelyn. I guess either I or my sources were a little confused on a couple of details.

[Jess]

The only reason I know a lot about Wicca, etc, is because one of my closest friends is Wiccan. I find it a very beautiful and interesting religion. Since most of you have got the details down, I'll spare you :)

I can't stand people who don't accept Pagans or Wiccans. Blegh!

[Thayet]

I intend on purchasing some books on wicca, and reading up about it. I've been informed by an online wiccan friend to read before trying any spells, as its dangerous. I intend on reading up though.

Its just so interesting, I've actually made a chatroom to discuss wicca. I'll have to make it accessable on the net, not just through mIRC.

If you do have IRC, or want it, go to www.mirc.com and download mIRC. Once on it, type /server 216.152.65.156 then /join #magick.

We're discussing it there, although thats just incase you do want to know. Several wiccans are there, guiding us, helping us, etc.

[Thayet]

I'm sorry to double post, but its important.

We've been having a lot of arguments, I want to become a wiccan, and I know a couple who say they are.

Theres been some statements made, and I'm confused as to whether or not they're true or individual belief.

One: " YOU CAN NOT BE A CHRISTIAN AND A WICCAN!!!!!!!"

Is that true?

Is wicca a way of life, or religion? I thought it was both, to be honest, but theres been so much fighting, mainly due to one person who hates wiccans, could someone answer me?

[Emma]

To me it is both.

[HogwartsChaplain]

So, Emma-- according to your understanding-- can a person be a Wiccan and a Christian?

[Morgoth]

I think Emma was answering the part where Thayet said: "Is wicca a way of life, or religion?"

[Emma]

To a certain degree.

I believe that there are higher powers that guide us in life. You might call them angels, I call them spirits. I do believe that there was a profit Jesus that told about heaven. But it is a different heaven than what you might believe in. I believe that it is Home to me. Earth is where I learn. Heaven is my home. Where I will go in spirit when I die. When I need to learn more I will be reborn again to learn again.

I believe that the earth is alive, and that we need to take care of it. Or it will not take care of us.

I'm trying not to go into much detail, so as not to confuse any of you. But I do also believe that we are all apart of God. That is why we must all get along with each other. Have peace. And why Love is a must.

I hope that I did'nt confuse anyone too much.

[Xikum]

Make perfect sense to me, but them I'm Wiccan, too.

Yes, Wicca is both a religion & a way of life. How can you separate them? I don't think that's possible.

PB w/Christianity & Wicca: I played that game for a few years (1978-80?), then realized it couldn't work. For me, the problem is this:

While Wicca, as a pagan religion, can easily accept Jesus as another aspect of god, Christianity cannot accept the basic values we have as Wicca...they exclude other points of view of the meaning/ aspects of god/dess. They would have us abandon all other beliefs and hold only that one as valid, which simply doesn't hold true--at least, not for Wiccans.

[Skyfang]

I'm a witch. Well sort of. I study it, have been for a while now.

I tend to lean towars the Celtic Magic site of withccraft. I'm well aware there's no Celtic race, only people and races that can be counted as celtic, but I think there culture and religion was very interesting.

[Ahmergin the Evil]

I posted a thread in another forum looking for other Wicca's.
And was told to come here.
I've been practicing Wicca for a few years, and although this might sound real cheesy, I must say I feel a hole lot more respectful to certain things and in a way a lot more happier, I'll post what I wrote in my thread...give your opinions please.
___________________________________________________
i myself have been practising Wicca for a few years, I'm even apart of a local coven.
The bad thing is I attend a Christian school.
No offence to anyone that follows that faith...
My school believes magick is evil etc. etc.
Even though not once in the bible did God say Witch Craft was bad, he only said EVIL magic and I don't practise evil magic.
They even banned the HP books from our library.
There's only one other witch out of 1150 pupils at my school.
And she only got into it because of Harry potter.
If there has already been a thread asking about Witchcraft I'm sorry.

So is there another witch or wizard out there?
If there is how did you get into it? How did you discover your powers or how did you get interested in it?
Care to share any views on any aspect of the religion?
____________________________________________________

I feel so victimized at my school, any of you had any problems with people who feel Witchcraft is evil or...stupid?

[Emma]

I have been believing in this since I was 13. I'm now *Older* so to say. I have reciently come out of the broom closet to my family.

My cousin wishes that I don't spell her. And that no matter what, I'm not evil. I never told her that I was...People get the impression that you are. I had to send her books on the matter so that she would understand what I'm about.

For Christmas, my mother gave me a bible. And told me to read it everyday.
I told her thank you.

My daughter and I do spells together. She loves it. She loves the herbs and inscents. And the closeness with nature.

You have to be careful with whom you talk about it with. My daughter spoke about it at school and some mothers were very upset that she (my daughter) claimed to be a witch. I told them so what is wrong with that? And walked away. I think that their mouths are still open.

[Ahmergin the Evil]

My best friend (dosen't go to my school, she's from the coven) her mother is a (what you'd call) a puritan, heavy Christianity.
She doesn't even like her reading her horoscopes.
If she told her mother she'd be literally killed.
My friend has been picked on at school for it and everything, I feel really guilty because I sort of got her interested in it.
If she tells her mum, her mum would be so upset because she kind of turned to God when her dad died.
I know it has nothing to do with it, but don't you think people should be more open minded about it?
They should think before they say?
Mother's should allow their children to find their own religion and find who they really are.
My own mum freaked when I told her, well I didn't actually tell her, she found my Book of Shadows (my log).
I think that the world has been fashioned into believing a certain thing about witchcraft, and that thing is not good.

-Ginny-

[Emma]

You would think that now in these time that people would be more accepting of different faiths and beliefs. Well they aren't. And especially to the Wiccan All people hear is Witch and associate it to Salem and the Witch trials. And the Wicked Witch of the West in the Wizard of Oz. This is what the public has heard for years. This is what has been implanted into their minds.

I think that the Harry Potter books are wonderful and a way for others to see that we are not the evil beings that have been portrayed for these many years. It is ashame that the churches ban the books I think that it is wrong for them to do this. After all we do not ban the bible.

[Xikum]

'They' like to use some quote along the lines of "you shall not suffer a witch to live"...But then forget all about stoning adulterers, that divorce is essentially forbidden---given the constraints placed against it, same with wearing clothes of mixed fibers, eating pork or shellfish, not judging others, leaving that particular act for god, etc....They pick & choose what they want to use & what they want to ignore...
Sorry if that sounds bitter, I know there are some genuinely good christians out there, but I sometimes get quite sick & tired of it, and I guess you got me on one of 'those' days.

BTW===I haven't been around for awhile, and when I saw an email about this, I had to drop in!! albeit breifly!!

Ahmerain Be sure to read the whole thread, and I think wicca is also addressed in another thread, too You'll see there are quite a few wiccans here (including me) on this website.


Here's question 1a: Do you think that the mundanes believe we Really use Latin spellwords?? <giggle> I think the use of 'spells' in 'duelling' is fun, it's just a game purely taking a leaf from the books,
But I have Never Seen Anyone use such! Just another way the book has no bearing on real magic/witchcraft....

I mean, I speak English, so I use English, as do the wiccans I know... ANyone out there specifically use latin or another language such as Greek, etc. in spellcasting? And if so, Why???

Question 2: And of course, while different books do serve as guides for some things, the ritual or spell examples are just that, to serve as a 'how to' guide...Of Course, any spell (aka our version of prayer) is, of necessity, individual for each occassion. There is NO such Thing as a 'standard' spell...though we do have certain aspects that are constant in spells & rituals, even those are individual for each occassion.

Question 3: Do you think they (non-wiccans/non-pagans) are afraid of all magic, or 'dark magic'? Or just the christian created fantasy that is Satanism?---Since we don't and never have had a 'Satan'---I wonder if they are surprised to discover, or even believe us when we tell them that that particular one is actually, truly, a judeo-christian creation?

4th question: For those who have trained/studied:
Have you participated in any interesting discussions/thought exercises of uses of dark/light magic?
I'd be interested in hearing what you think, have discussed, gotten from studies.

A few thoughts/opinions I got in discussions with others and in my studies, some of which seem contradictory, but on further reflection, I'm not so sure, maybe just reflect different aspects

(due to the old, seemingly true saw 'put 7 wiccans in a room and you'll get 8 opinions'):

~~~Dark and Light are NOT necessarily Evil/Good opposites. There are good & evil uses of both light and dark---It is the intent that determines whether the particular use is allowed or forbidden.
I've heard/seen that one in a bunch of places, & I agree w/it.

~~~Light tends to call for power/spirit to act in a way that heals/reveals/supports through a request or positive command
I can agree w/that.

~~~Dark tends to call the power, draw on it in a way to try to control or bend the universe/power to the will of the person casting the spell. It takes less regard for possible consequence to 'other', thus is more potentially dangerous.
I'm not so sure. I guess it could well be that way. I think we all (?) have accidentally, or maybe with the 'best intentions' slipped into that on one or a few occassions & lived to regret it.
But, I still need to think & talk this one out a bit.
It seems to me, that is not the True definition of Dark, but a confusion of dark and evil. Some dark magic, is after all, Very Good. And, due to it's nature, can never be confused with light. Just as some things unthinking people may consider 'light', for instance a love spell, is actually evil, since it interferes with free will. So, then, aren't such things evil light spells, or dark?

~~~But then, on another hand, is it Always evil to interfere with another's free will? I was taught that this is so---but I can think of exceptions to that, aslo.

Since this is 'our' thread, why not get a discussion going?
OR, should we continue to save these topics for our own sites, only, as has been done, lest they be misinterpreted by 'others'?

[Emma]

Hmmm! These are very hard questions to answer. Just because I don't know who the otherswill interpret my answers.

I will answer some of the questions though... the ones that I think are safe!

1. I have never used Latain. lol you have got to be kidding. lol I have trouble remembering the rhymes sometimes....of what I'm trying to do.

2. I do agree that there is no set in stone way to do anything. It is to your own decision.

3. I am afraid to say to people I don't know well of my beliefs.

4. Each has trained and studied in different ways. It is true that eight different people will have eight different views but they might come all down to the same center meaning.

I have been solitary for many years.
I love this practice.

[Thayet]

I'm not sure what that last post was about Xikum, but I assume the post was removed :smile:

One thing I was lost when Emma was discussing about 'God'. Doesn't wicca have multiple God's and goddesses? I though Mithras (I spell and prounounce Mithros) and The Great Mother Goddess, were two of these, amongst others? Or is my small book, a beginners guide to wicca, incorrect?

[HogwartsChaplain]

Yes, we removed some posts, at Xikum's request.

[Xikum]

Thayet, yes...Different pagans/wiccans interpret differently. The god/dess may be interpreted as one being whose aspects are expressed in the different named gods & goddesses, the easier for us humans to copmprehend and focus on a spefic aspect; or perceived as truly different gods & goddesses. Usually, the different ones of all religions can be accepted, they are simply additions to the pantheon as we learn of new ones from new people...They may be different names for equivalent god/desses, or they may be new aspects that a given culture had not considered, due to their own cultural perspective of life. Once you learn of something new to you, of course you have the responsibility to integrate that into your life. You cannot ignore new knowledge simply because it may be inconvenient. SO, of course, as one learns new concepts from other cultures, you add them to your own, therefore you also add 'new' (to your culture) supreme beings.

Thus one of the earlier questions someone had asked, about christianity. I have no problem adding christ to the pantheon, just as earlier pagans did. He is obviously the son of the great goddess, who is born at winter solstice, comes to youth in spring, manhood in summer, dies and is reborn...that is an ancient cycle. Unfortunately, chirstians seem to have a problem with that. They don't want other god/desses to be recognized. I feel that is an unrealistic, narrowly limited view of the universe/life.
For One Example: I may 'pray'---e.g. do a ritual and cast spells--- for guidance in travel or life transitions to the goddess aspect of Hecate (Greek goddess, one of the original trinity of goddesses--usually the wise crone, a night goddess), who is considered by many the same as the Egyptian midwife goddess Hekat, a wise midwife goddess who helps/guides the new mother goddess bring her child into the world. In both forms, her symbol is the moon---as with many goddesses. SO I contemplate the link between the two aspects of the same goddess Hecate/Hekat.
Without going on for too long here, perhaps you can let me know if I was answering the question you asked?? Or did you mean something else?

[TMRiddle_Peeler]

Hi!

Great thread, this...lots of good info and reasoned discussion :)

I'm a Wiccan, I decided to be when I was 16 and have been practicing for three years now. Pretty much all the relevent basics regarding Wicca and Paganism have been said already, so I suppose I'll just give my story and situation.

Like Ahmergin, I attend a Christian School, though mine's much smaller, only about 350 kids. I haven't had problems with any of the kids there, it's a pretty open-minded school all considered, though some of the teachers have made nuisances of themselves. I can get away with wearing a pentagram around classes, at any rate.

I have a cool story of how I came to the craft, but it's pretty long and flakey-sounding so I won't type it all out (I have to get to sleeping soon). In short, before I even knew what Wicca was (or that there was such a thing) I had a vision of a God and Goddess, and they helped me realize things within myself that I was more or less unaware of. About a month later I stumbled across a site on the net on Wicca and found it was almost exactly what I'd come to believe.

I had trouble telling my parents at first, not because I was worried about what they'd say but because I didn't know how to phrase it. "Hey mum, guess what, I'm a witch!" :) So a year and a bit ago, when I was doing a spell to help me pass French class (it worked), I made a lot of noise at 2:00 am. When my mum asked what on earth I was doing, I told her, and that was that! If someone asks about my religion I tell them, but if they don't I don't go around advertising it.

On some questions here:
Can you be a Christian and a Wiccan?
Depends (doesn't everything?)
I tried it for a while, while I was still a little uncomfortable with Wicca (that was back when I refused to call myself a witch, or to wear a pentagram...it lasted about two weeks). A book I bought recently (Drawing Down the Moon by Margot Atler) says that while Polytheism can include Monotheism, the opposite is not true. So I don't think you can be both and be logical about it. You might be able to pull it off in some forms of Catholic belief; after all, some saints are really old Gods and Goddesses with facelifts :)
Also an interesting revelation I had...Christ fits perfectly into the Pagan God archetype (this could be why the early pagans were converted so easily). Consider: Osiris, Odin, the standard Horned God mythology, all die and return to life with more wisdom and/or power than they had before. In the case of the latter two they become the rulers of the kingdom of the dead (heaven); Odin shares the rulership of heaven with his wife. Nearly exact parallels to Jesus.

Light/Dark Magic(k)
I don't really think there is 'dark' and 'light' magick. Magick is essentially neutral. It can be used for positive or for negative, to create or to destroy. The human mind is the force which drives magick, and the mind too can be used for different purposes. Since we cannot understand either the depth of the mind or the full power of magick, we must take care to use both responsibly.

I have a couple questions of my own:

1. What are your experiences with altered states, i.e. deep meditation, hypnosis, astral projection? I've been doing some reading on 'consciousness expanding' (most notably "The Doors of Perception" by Aldous Huxley) and am interested by the subject. On that note,
2. What is your opinion on drugs in Wicca/Paganism? They seem quite prevalent in the Wiccan community here, though that might just be the west coast libertarian vibe.

Blessed Be!
-Peter

[miri]

I'm not Wiccan but it sounds like a lot of the fundamental beliefs do echo my natural leanings... By birth, I'm Jewish, but it really is JUST the traditional side I feel a connection to, so I dont believe there is a conflict here.

One question I have is about forgiveness, and how exactly that *returning by 3s* works. I'm somewhat of an oxymoron in this matter, but know enough people who are/ have been in the same place:

I'm a vegetarian because I dont like the idea that something's dying so I can eat it, when there are so many alternatives about. I very strongly believe that one shouldnt try to force ones will on others, and I respect people as well as animals.

However, when it gets on to me, this starts to crumble. I spent 6+ years battling with depression, and cut for 2 years, ending when I tried to kill myself. In many ways for me this was actually the best thing I could have done for my mental health because it meant I had to work through some of my issues and come to accept myself and I am a lot happier than I was before. Last term though, I lived with 5 girls who I had very little in common with and who didnt reciprocate my attempts at friendship (one of them told me straight out that she knows when she meets people if she's going to be friends with them and didnt feel that way about me), and it did a lot of damage to the self-confidence I'd spent over a year trying to rebuild. I had got to the state where 90% of the time, I was happy being me. Now, although I'm not as low as I was, I find it very hard to accept the fact I'm not perfect. I know that no 1 is, and there's no reason why I should differ from this, but I cant convince myself on this on levels deeper than thought.

How would my history with depression and self-harm affect my ability to become a Wicca? Is there any generality that can help me deal with it? If anyone wants to put *seek mental help*, feel free, even though I was talking about from the Wiccan perspective! (I called the Samaritans and chatted to someone useless, went to counselling for a while but my problem wasnt with thinking through my thoughts logically... If anyone has any better suggestions, seeing as I currently live opposite a NHS mental health hospital, I should be able to do something! But a Wicca perspective is really what I want here - feel free to PM me if you have any other suggestions, please!) How does forgiveness fit into the Wicca perspective?

Does the thing about threefold returns hold true for any action, whether intentional or accidental? Internal or external? Brought about through magic(k) or physical actions?

Also, what is the difference between magic and magick, from the Wiccan perspective?

*(from Cambridge International Dictionary of English)*

*magic, magick (IMAGINARY POWER)
noun, adjective [U]
(of) the use of special powers to make things happen which would usually be impossible, such as in stories for children
The group are known for their belief in witchcraft and magic.*

*magic (SPECIAL QUALITY)
noun, adjective [U]
(having) a special exciting quality that makes something very different from ordinary things *

From what has been said here, what you have been referring to as magic(k) is more like prayer,

*pray (SPEAK TO GOD)
verb
to speak to a god either privately or in a religious ceremony in order to express love, admiration or thanks or in order to ask for something
Sometimes people pray silently by thinking the words but not actually saying them. *

but with the other dimension that everything is sacred in some form, so that mother-daughter talk, about asking the flowers if it's all right to pick them is a prayer of thoughts... Is this a correct interpretation?

[Emma]

Wow miri,

I don't know where to start. I will try to answer your questions as I see and feel them.

One question I have is about forgiveness, and how exactly that *returning by 3s* works. I'm somewhat of an oxymoron in this matter, but know enough people who are/ have been in the same place:

The Law of Return: Within the traditions of Wicca and all forms of magic practice there is a Law of Return. In Wicca this is usually called the Law of Threefold Return, meaning that whatever magical power is sent out returns threefold.
"What is sent comes back" This is a Green element found restated in mainstream faiths as "doing unto others..." I am more inclined to accept an equivalent Law of Returnas its appearance is more frequent in a variely of sources, thoughtout various belief systems and Greek philosophies. The original emphasis was not so much on being a good neighbor and obeying civil laws as it was a warning to not indulge in magic to harm others. From this comes the traditional Witches Rede, "If it harms none, do what you will." The Law of Return is you do not want to harm others because what is sent comes back, hence you would be harming yourself.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

How does forgiveness fit into the Wicca perspective?


I believe in my heart as long as you forgive you. Your fine.
People make mistakes. But are they really mistakes or are they learning lessons?

I believe in the life lessons, that things happen in your life to help you along in the future. There are really no mistakes.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Also, what is the difference between magic and magick, from the Wiccan perspective.

There are so many different magick in Wicca.
I don't know where to start about this one.

If you would like a suggestion of a book that I have it is

Green Witchcraft
Folk Magic, Fairy Lore and Herb Craft
author is Ann Moura (AOUMIEL)

[miri]

Thank you :) a bookstore in my hometown (there are probably some in my Uni-city too) may well stock it, so I'll look next time I'm there :)

So the law of returns IS just based around the magic side? To me, it sounds like it shares a lot with *For every action there's an equal and oposite reaction*, but then I guess by manipulating the world, effects could be amplified... It's really quite bad, but I think most of what I know about witchcraft comes from "The Craft" (a film that I'm guessing relies on principles of Wicca but then puts it into a story - for instance, in it the coven tend to use their powers for selfish/ shallow purposes, including a *love spell* but the Law of Threefold Return is used), with a bit from a couple of books I've looked at.

With the forgiveness thing... It's not that I dont forgive myself - I know that while my methods of coping werent ideal, I tried to cope as well as I could. And as I said, I turned reaching the point where I made a serious attempt at suicide, into a positive, mentally healing experience.

I just have a bad habit of getting mad at me when other people do stuff to hurt me. I dont feel anger towards them; I feel hatred towards me for inspiring whatever feelings resulted in them hurting me. For example, coz I know that isnt clear, when I overheard one of my ex housemates say she dreads the thought of being around me, having to say anything to me, etc (for one I moved into another room, further away, coz I didnt think she knew I could hear, but I could still hear her unfortunately; but for another), I got mad at me. The facts I had tried to be friendly, interested, get to know her, etc, didnt matter. For some unknown reason, all my friends to the contrary, all logic out the window, "I'm the sort of person who inspires dread in others" was the problem. This is the one who I later found out had decided when we first met she didnt like me; that coupled with realising she's just a whiney :censored: made me feel a bit better but... I'm *fairly* certain that internalising other peoples' negative reactions and magnifying it into hate isnt healthy...

I dont know if perhaps Xikum, or someone else coming from a Coven background, may have had more experience talking about these sorts of topics from a Wicca POV? Or even Pastor Evelyn, if you've had experience helping people come to terms with problems like this?

[Dylan]

Thank you for this cool thread guys, I never really understood the Wiccan Religion religion. Thank you Margoth, you provided great information.
Keep up the good work!

[Finch]

OH OH OH OH OH OH OOOOOOh! I LOVE this thread! I've been interested in this stuff for so long, but neve could find a good way to get started! Now, maybe I can find someone to help me........

[Chloe]

Originally posted by Thayet (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=82660#post82660))
Thanks you two, thats really interesting.

I know that they perform some spells, although some would be critical about whether or not it is a spell, but what sort of spells exactly would be practised?

If there are any wiccans here, that would really help if you could tell me some of the things you do :)

I've always wanted to get a book on wicca, but I've never really seen any locally, but if I do I know I'll get it.


I'm wiccan(big shock). Go to a border's or horizon book store or any other stores and buy the circle of three series. those book got me into the religion- in fact, I just got done with a meditation :). I am a ten year old witch. Weird sounding, huh? (eleven in like two weeks :)). I joined a few covens, but I think i'm better off alone.
*Links to site of wicca:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Thebes/5869/
http://www.wiccancovens.com/

[Rosepetal]

This is an awsome thread. I never realized how many Wiccans are on this site. I'm pretty new to the religion, so it's nice to know that there are others out there that follow it. I'm not yet "out of the broom closet" with my family, but a few of my closer friends know I'm interested in the religion. If anyone here is a teacher, or is an experienced Wiccan that's willing to try and teach someone, I'd appreciate it if you would PM me. Thank you.

[Finch]

thx for posting those links Chlommnet!!

[Chloe]

Oh, you're welcome :)
Anyways, if you look in my signature, you see a quote A la* Chloe(HAHA),And if you copy the link in your browser box thingy you will see one of my favorite wiccan tools- my favorite tarot card.

[Lady~Slytherin]

I am really really interested in Wicca. I have read up about it on the net and it seems great.

[Mandella Moonbeam]

Hullo, I'm bit of a newbie here and this conversation seemed like an interesting one, so I though why not add my two Sickles.

If asked, I would label myself pagan.
I know, as someone already mentioned, that's bit of a brolly term but I don't really have a religion, so I just go under the heading 'pagan'.

I've always lived near nature and my parents have taught me to respect it (or her, rather) as a 'loving mother' just like Christians respect God.
I believe in several deities, Mother (Earth) and Father(Heaven) being the two main ones. I pray to both of them. I'm not really into spells or rituals (it's just that I find them a bit time-consuming, nothing more), right now I prefer the old-fashioned way (or would that be the new way?).

I was babtized Lutheran (a pretty 'relaxed' branch of Christianity incase someone's wondering) but I was never that much into Christianity and my parents aren't really religious either.
Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against Christianity or Christians, most of their teachings are beautiful. It's just not my cuppa tea.
The only reason I'm part of our church these days is because I can be a legal(she was baptized Lutheran as well) godmother to a beautiful baby girl.

I'm completely enchanted with Nature and its endless mysteries and I'm actually pretty content with not knowing. I mean, my best mate is Christian, a very devout one, and she always needs to find an explanation for things, as if that made them more true whereas I don't feel the need to find out where we came from and where we're headed.
I have my own beliefs concerning death and I believe in reincarnation.

All in all, I'm pretty happy with my own little ways, I don't feel the pressure to fit into a certain religion or category (I'm NOT implying that any of you do either) and I love the feeling I get when I'm reading someone's post about their Beltaine celebrations or listening to lovely music, it's like someone gives you a big bear hug and I end up bawling all over my keyboard, heh..

It's great to find such a big group of brothers and sisters
:D

[Maxi Malfoy]

:devil: But some thing you said about wiccians and there belive in the nation of mother earth I agree with, I do not eat any kind of meat or animal or stuff from an animal like eggs butter or milk!
:devil: I however follow budist's teaching even though I am not budist, I wear black and have white powder on my face I talk to the spirts around me in a dark room with one lit candle.
:devil: And that is about it but wiccian is a very interesting relion even through the whole thing with beliveing about a god and godness I would never belive in because I do not belive in an all powerful person controling everything!
:devil: It just does not sound true to me! Evil is everywhere but mosty just in here!:devil:

[nox]

Maxi Malfoy: I don't see it as a person. I see it as a force (or 2 forces), and not especially controlling at all.
Mind you, I'm not really wiccan, I'm just sort of "floating" at the moment, though I suppose that I do lean towards wiccan beliefs...

[Astaldo]

www.witchschool.com--I recomend the free Gaia course.
www.wherefaerieslive.com

[Nickles]

Back in highschool I had a group of friends who practiced Wicca very seriously and even belonged to a large local coven (one run by adults I mean, not by them). No offense, this is simply an observation, but.... all of them were pretty unpopular (not because of being Wiccan... although I'm sure it didn't help), and most of them were fat, or greasy, or quite ugly, or all three. Some of them did ok in school, and some did terrible.

I always wondered why, if Wiccans can do magic etc, etc why they didn't improve they're situation at all. I mean... I don't expect them to suddenly transform from a 240 lbs greasy girl with a nose the side of an apple, unibrow and scraggly poop colored hair into a slim, raven haired bombshell whom the guys are falling over themselves to date... but they couldn't even protect their homes from being TPed every week by jocks or get people to leave them alone... even with the help of the coven.

Don't get me wrong; I think Wicca is one of the most admirable religions in that it preaches peace between people and respect for nature (as opposed to superiority over other religions and dominion over nature), I just haven't been impressed with my experiences with it.... *shrug*

[Emma]

http://midsummer2003.tripod.com/

Here is a new site that is interesting.

E~

[TMRiddle_Peeler]

I always wondered why, if Wiccans can do magic etc, etc why they didn't improve they're situation at all.

Magic only works in conjunction with action. One of my biggest quibbles with Wicca is that people tend to come to it because they feel powerless/ugly/unpopular/whatever and think that by muttering a few invocations they'll turn their life around.

The purpose of magic is, in my view, essentially to empower yourself, to get your mind to believe in what you want it to. The famous Druid Isaac Bonewits once called magic "pop parapsychology" and I think that's a pretty accurate description.

Anyways, I guess what I'm trying to say is, magic isn't a fix-all solution; it's supposed to motivate you into taking action for yourself. If you're overweight, a spell to help you lose weight should take the form of helping you to excercise consistently and remembering to eat right.

I don't know if most other Wiccans share this view, I take a pretty scientific view of magic and stuff. I don't really even do magic anymore, I just stick to the rituals, parties, and feasts :)

[DarkMoon]

An interesting topic to share a word or two,
Many statements false but some are true.
Wiccan I be for many turns of the wheel,
A fascinating religion with great appeal.

Not for everyone that is certain enough,
Full of rites, meditations, and other stuff.
One who posted about “the” god and goddess,
They are not the only ones I must confess.

Different traditions worship in different ways,
Enough gods to talk about for many days.
No one reigns supreme over them all,
Your needs dictate which you decide to call.

True Wiccans solitary or in a coven like myself,
Cant cast spells for beauty, gain or wealth.
It can work in a way if your heart and soul are true,
But be careful for karma will come back to you.

Can’t magickally win the lotto sorry to protest,
Spells to help others generally work out best.
Greed and corruption are something to avoid,
Love, life, and happiness they can be destroyed.

[TMRiddle_Peeler]

Oh, bravo!

Poems are the good :)

:clappy:

[DarkMoon]

Well thank you very much for the kind words,
It’s my little unique thing when posting blurbs.

[Emma]

Ok I've been thinking awhile. I've had these beliefs for many years.

I'm beginning to believe that it is not a religion, but a belief.

That's all I have to say.

[DarkMoon]

Well that is a funny thing to say about religion as a whole,
What religion is not a belief or a belief in a final goal?
All religions are based on belief or what you call faith,
Whether it is in a man woman dog cow or mystical wraith.

Rules, regulations, or strict rites do not make a “religion”
May I ask what drove you to come to your decision?
I could worship a meatloaf and it would be no less real,
What’s important is what’s in your heart and how you feel.

You can debate the validity or truth of what they preach,
You can even debate the means in which they teach.
However, no matter what one believes its no less true,
A religion can be whatever in anything for me or you.

[Annerach]

I don't know. Wiccan at least seems much less oppressive and hypocritical then most organized religon.

[Emma]

I think that it is more of a belief because, It's earth. You can see, feel, and touch it. I believe that it is there and know that it is there. I like that no one can say that it is right or wrong. I like the ceramonies of the seasons and phases of the moon.

[Midnightsfire]

There seems to be much in common between Druidism and Wicca, moreso for the nature orientation of both beliefs.

Such beliefs seems more...healthier than the more patriarchal faiths.

Wicca (http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/w/w0145800.html)
A polytheistic Neo-Pagan nature religion inspired by various pre-Christian western European beliefs, whose central deity is a mother goddess and which includes the use of herbal magic and benign witchcraft.

If nothing else, it IS a lot nicer than some beliefs.

[DarkMoon]

Then again it’s hard to debate the meaning of it all,
There are too many denominations to possibly recall.
Wicca is to general a term to bunch them together,
Wouldn’t be right to groups us like birds of a feather.

The various traditions practice and preach different things,
Some have only the goddess and forget the god in their ring.
I have personally found comfort in the Greek pantheon,
Although I include a variety of deities to be called upon.

I pay homage to them all and sometimes all at one time,
To each their own thing, whatever you do can be sublime.
A common theme is an it harm none do what you will,
The karma rule of three is a common ground better still.

Not to say all Wiccans follow those two rules to the letter,
But it’s generally a common, till they find something better.
Although not all Wiccans care to call themselves witches,
Actually most Wiccans I know consider them more B@#$!es.

I have found we Wiccans tend to be more subtle and easy going,
Ones that call themselves witches let their thought go a flowing.
It is still just opinion, not like there are rules and regulations,
Just some more food for thought during your contemplations.

I am quite happy with what I am, and what I tend to believe,
Not all Wiccans are like me which is very easy to conceive.
I am fairly eclectic in my own practices and religious rites,
When with my coven I do what they plan on that holy night.

Even I am not consistent with the Wiccan way of my group,
So even I can not always share a correct answer or inside scoop.
Belief or religion I guess it really doesn’t matter which,
Writing books about all our views would make us all rich.

Definitions are not even consistent about what we are,
Different dictionaries and books opinions vary by far.
So push comes to shove a comment about Wicca is to vague,
Which denomination of Wicca is the question that plagues?

[Emma]

Thank You DarkMoon ;)

[DarkMoon]

P.S.
My words are simply sometimes just meant for humor or a joke,
Thoughts are not always easily conveyed when rhyme is spoke.

[*Eternal*Doll*]

I'm not Wiccan myself, I'm actually Catholic. But it has always seemed kind of interesting. The fact that it's completely happy, not matter what you do in life. It's non-fearbased, is why I find it so interesting.
Don't get my wrong, I'm not planning on becoming Wiccan, but it seems like it'd be kind of a release. Not having to be scared that committing one of the seven deadly sins will land you in hell for eternity.
-Heavy sigh.-
What do you think?

[Midnightsfire]

Refer to this thread. (http://cosforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3158)

*winks*

[Midnightsfire]

This is an intriguing website:

http://elementalpsychics.netfirms.com/

What do witches think of it?

[Wendiigo]

Just found this place not too long ago, so bear with me ;)

There's some great info on this thread - many thanks to the witches and non-witches who posted. I think a big part of any "alternative" religion is to dispel the rumors and untruths that can abound. Fortunately, that seems to be unnecessary in such an awesome community as these forums, and the focus can be shifted instead to far more light-hearted conversation.

The web has oodles of information about the topic at hand. A good place to see things from an "inside" perspective would be www.witchvox.com - has all sorta of handy info around. Also you may want to check out www.celticcrow.com - the Witch's League for Public Awareness. Both are great sites worthy of a click or two.

Just for the record, I'm a Witch who's been practicing for 11 years or so...one of these days I'll get it right ;)

[Ankou]

I was Catholic the first 12 years of my life. *rasberry* And I've been a practicing witch the other 4 (not counting my year and a day).
I love it so much. I agree with Wendiigo that witchvox (http://www.witchvox.com) is a great place to learn about wicca, or whichever tradition you want to know about.

[innocentSirius]

i have been wiccan since i was 13, and i'm 16 now. I even got my mom into it! lol. i learned basically all i know from books. here's a list of good books:

Teen Witch - Silver Ravenwolf
The Llewelyn's Almanac - various authors
To Ride a Silver Broomstick - Siilver Ravenwolf
Spellcraft for teens - Gwenivere Rain
(there are a few books that i cant remember the authors to and i lent the out)

There is also a great witchy fictional series by a woman who just happ-ens to be wiccan. it has a lot of information, including that of a cuban-based religion called Santeria. It deals with friendship, lesbianism, un-accepting families, cheating boyfriends, and even cancer. yep, everything in real life and then some. it's called the Circle of Three series and it's by Isobel Bird. i bought the last few books i needed from the series i actually bought from a New Age store 20 minutes away.
Silver Ravenwolf also has a fictional series called Witches Night Out.

[Wendiigo]

Maybe we should start a subthread for recommended reading on Wicca and other types of Paganism out there? Just a thought...

I'm a fan of D.J. Conway's books - she has some sound ideas and is actually pretty friendly over email. Also, Freya Aswynn wrote a book about the Norse tradition (title escapes me) that's awfully keen for rune information and the folklore of the frozen north. And then there's Edred Thorsson...

Yeah, we need a recommended reading list ;)

[Crystal]

A few people have mentioned the burning times, I've just heard this song which might be interesting to some of you.

Burning Times Charles Murphy
In the cool of the evening, they used to gather, 'neath stars in the meadow, circled near an old oak tree.
At the times appointed by the seasons of the Earth, and the phases of the moon.
In the center of them stood a woman, equal with the others, and respected for her worth.
One of the many we call the Witches, the teachers and the keepers of the wisdom of the Earth
The people grew through the knowledge she gave them, herbs to heal their bodies, spells to make their spirits whole.
Hear them chanting healing incantations, calling forth the Wise Ones, celebrating in dance and song

Isis, Astarte, Diana, Hecate, Demeter, Kali, Inanna
Isis, Astarte, Diana, Hecate, Demeter, Kali, Inanna
Isis, Astarte, Diana, Hecate, Demeter, Kali, Inanna

There were those who came to power through domination, and they bonded in the worship of a dead man on a cross.
They sought control of the common people by demanding allegiance to the church of Rome.
And the Pope declared the Inquisition, it was a war against the women whose power they feared.
In this Holocaust against the nature peoples, a million European women died.

And the tales are told of those who, by the hundreds, holding together, chose their deaths in the sea.
Chanting the praises of the Mother Goddess, a refusal of betrayal, women were dying to be free.

Isis, Astarte, Diana, Hecate, Demeter, Kali, Inanna
Isis, Astarte, Diana, Hecate, Demeter, Kali, Inanna
Isis, Astarte, Diana, Hecate, Demeter, Kali, Inanna

Now the Earth is a witch, and the men still burn her! Stripping her down with mining and the poisons of their wars.
While to us the Earth is a healer, a teacher, a mother.
She's the weaver of the web of life that keeps us all alive.

She gives us the vision to see through the chaos.
She gives us the courage, it is our will to survive!

Isis, Astarte, Diana, Hecate, Demeter, Kali, Inanna...(repeat ad lib)

[innocentSirius]

does someone actually sing that or is it just a chant?

[Crystal]

does someone actually sing that or is it just a chant?

It's a song but it's usually sung either to just a tabor or Acapella.
It is currently quite popular as a folk song (many wiccan songs are). I heard it sung on Saturday by a singer called Roy Baily.

[Midnightsfire]

Juliana Hatfield ---Witches Song


Shall I see tonight sister
Bathed in magic grease
Shall we meet on the hilltop
Where the two roads meet

We will form the circle
Hold our hands and chant
Let the great one know
What it is we want

Danger is great joy
Dark is bright as fire
Happy is our family
Lonely is the ward

Sister, we are waiting
Come to meet and chant
Fly fast through the airwaves
Meet with pride and truth

Danger is great joy
Dark is bright as fire
Happy is our family
Lonely is the ward

Father, we are waiting
For you to appear
Do you feel the panic
Can you see the fear?

Mother, we are waiting
For you to give consent
If there's to be a marriage
We need contempt

Danger is great joy
Dark is bright as fire
Happy is our family
Lonely is the ward

[PhoenixUK]

Hmm... wiccanism. Even though I'm a Christian, I still think that wiccanism is a good thing. Although it may not lead you to God, if He exists, my understanding is that it's about doing good, not evil. Hence, it's in the end a good thing, and the Christians that criticise it are probably the same ignorant ones that don't do the research and critcise Harry Potter.

The problem that I have is that, in the UK at least, it seems to have become a fashion accesory among teenage girls, who dabble in wicca and try and cast spells on people, which is obviosly against the spirit and beliefs of Wicca.

Anyway, kudos to everyone on this thread, you've obviously actually taken the time to research it.

[Prosperine]

Wow, I was very impressed with this thread! I find often it is hard to find a good discussion about Wicca and Paganism and this thread has been awesome!

I would consider myself wiccan for the past 8 years and am part of a pagan student group where we use the term "pagan" to cover all earth based religions- we have people who consider themself witches, wiccans, druids, asturian, strega, and just general pagans plus many many more who simply want to learn. We have been raised Catholic, Methodist, Lutheran, many many Baptists, and even one girl who was raised in the Mormon church (but unfortunately had never been inside the inner church and could not tell us about it ;) )

Seeing this thread is exactly what we try to embody on our campus- open discussion and talk about beliefs.

My recommended reads: Drawing down the Moon by Margret Adler and Spiral Dance by Starhawk- Spiraldance has some great meditation work in it!

[wicca_gurl]

I got a few questions:
First question: How do you pronounce 'sa-wayn'? Second question: How do you feel about children (as young as nine) practising wicca? I was like that. I think its ok. Third question: Why is Sa-wayn celebrated on the 31 october? Beltaine is. An Yule. That is celebrated on the 21 December. Why? I was always told it was the 22 march? Is all those Season Wheel things Northorn Hemisphere? I mean, can't NH be the same as SH? Or is it the plug thing (If you don't know, SH go clockwise, NH goes anticlockwise)? Pleas tell me, I really need to know.

[Prosperine]

The hemisphere thing is a bit complicated... However, Yule is the same as the winter solstice, Ostara the spring equinox, Litha is the Summer Solstice and Mabon is the fall equinox. Those dates are usally easy to find based on a calender. The other four sabbats are opposites depending on hemisphere as well, but that can get extremely confusing- I recommend checking out witchvox.com because they track which sabbat is coming up in both hemispheres and explain it much better than I can!

[wicca_gurl]

I need info on the religion. I've been wiccan for about four years (I was about eight when I started), and I have a few qestions about it:
1: I've always been told Samahain is Apiril 31, and Beltaine on October 31, and now I've read some material from america and other Northern Hemispheric sites, and I'm being told that Samhain is October 31, and Beltaine is April 31. Is it to do with that plug thing? Or what?

2: I can't find anything on what to use for the different Celebrations, and Beltaine is coming up soon. Could you tell me what to use for each of the Celebrations, and which solstice is which? I would be grateful if you could put Beltaine first, as it is the next celebration. Blessed be

[Druella]

Wicca_Gurl, i think if you live in the Southern Hemisphere Beltaine and Samhain are switched around. And also, I pronounce Samhain "sow-in". But people who come from different places pronounce it differently I think.

I have been researching Wicca properly and seriously since march this Year, but I don't think I'm a Wiccan, and I agree that I would need ALOT more experience before I can ever be called one.I have read quite a few books on Wicca.

Teen Witch by Silver RavenWolf (I'm not exactly sure of my oppinion on this book. I know quite a few Wiccans don't really like her work)
Wicca a Guide for the Solitary Practitioner by Scott Cunningham

I have some at home which I'm going to read soon, which are 13 Moons to master Natural Magic by Marianne Green and Hedge Witch by Rae Beth. i would also like to read The Spiral dance by Starhawk. Please give me your oppinions on the books I've mentioned.

Because I've only started to truly learn about Wocca, I always get the feeling people will label me as a poser. I'm frightened they will just think I want to wear black, and wear a pentacle, and be like Harry Potter, Willow from Buffy, or that I'm reblling against my parents or something. But I don't think that's true about me. I'm drawn to everything about Wicca. The Ritual, the Gods, it all just seems so...natural. Maybe I do sound like a poser even more now, but I'm not ready to say that I'm a Wiccan, as right now I don't feel I am.

[aiko amaya]

I have some questions for the wiccans out there. What is the dark side of wicca. MY boyfriend used to be wicca, but he recently became a christian, and sometimes he says a bit about the dark wicca and how awful it was. How he just fell into the power and greed thing. I have alot of problemes acceptign the wiccan religion just so I get that clear. I experimented with it a while ago, and then came back to god. But I've seen it tear apart alot of my friends who are wicca see and they claim to be apart of the good wicca, and soome apart of the dark or whatever. And I'm confused about that. Sorry if this is a muddled and not very clear.

[jennymac]

I'm just beginning to study Wicca, and I'm still getting info and not practicing yet, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. The only dark side of Wicca I see is the dark side of yourself. If you use spells for greed and wealth and you fall into that sort of trap, you are only exposing your own dark side. The main "Rede" that all Wicca live by is "An it harm none, do what ye will." In other words, if it doesn't hurt a soul, including your own, go ahead. Wiccans also, for the most part, believe that whatever you do will be returned 3 fold. If you do good, good things will come to you, if you do bad things, bad things will come to you. Following this, there can be no actually "dark side" of wicca. Only of yourself if you do not follow this. There are other forms of magic that have "dark arts" and spells and such, but this is NOT Wicca. If it tears apart your friends, then they just don't agree on everything, or they got too greedy, or something of that nature. Wiccans don't always agree on all rituals, rites, spells, or just general worship. All of them have a different way of doing it. But the 2 things I mentioned (An it harm none, and the law of 3 fold) are believe by all and if you didn't hear this in your studying, then you were not practicing Wicca. Maybe something that claimed to be it. If you would like to learn more about REAL Wicca, read books by Silver Ravenwolf or read "The Complete Idiots Guide to Wicca and Witchcraft". That's where I started. :)

Are there any good websites to visit for info on Wicca? I've searched EVERYWHERE and the only things I've found are rubbish.

Also I'm from Lexington, Ky - The "Bible Belt"- it's hard to find anything on Wicca here, except books (thank you Barnes & Noble!). Does anyone know where there are any good stores, or if there are any events, or places to learn about Wicca? Or do I have to go all the way to Cinncinati? :(

If anything I've said is worng, please correct me. I'd love to know where I'm wrong. I know Wiccans don't believe in a Good or Evil deity (eg. God and Satan). So I've always seen it as the evil is a part of human nature. We all have good and bad things about us.

As for Wicca and Christianity together, that's exactly what I want to try. There used to be witchcraft preformed in church before the King James Version of the Bible came out. From what I've heard, King James changed one word when he translated and that's what caused the whole witch hunt. He changed the word "Poisoner" to "Witch". My friend is borrowing the book that said that. When I get it back, I'll post the exact quote and bible phrase (unless anyone else knows it). I'd like to study the original bible and the king james version. If anyone has any info on it, please let me know.

[TMRiddle_Peeler]

If you would like to learn more about REAL Wicca, read books by Silver Ravenwolf or read "The Complete Idiots Guide to Wicca and Witchcraft". That's where I started.

That may not be the best idea, Ravenwolf's books are basically dumbed-down, trite Wicca for pre-teens (although that's how I got started too :) ). I would suggest The Spiral Dance by Starhawk and Drawing Down the Moon by Margot Adler as starters.

The thing about a "dark side" to Wicca is this: there is no organizational structure to Wicca, and not everyone agrees on the tenets and rules. There are people out there, I'm sure, who will do icky stuff and say it's Wicca. The same goes for Christianity or any other religion. The thing to realize is, there's a LOT more variation in beliefs throughout Wicca and Paganism than in most other faiths. The gap between Russian Orthodox and the Quakers is nothing compared to the gap between say, Voodoo and pop-Wicca :)

Jennymac, you may want to try WitchVox.com, they have some regional info. and stuff.

[Midnightsfire]

http://www.library.wisc.edu/libraries/WomensStudies/fc/fcwebwoo.htm

[jennymac]

wow! thank you both very much! both websites were very helpful. i'll definately check out those books too! anyone else with info please let me know!

[FirefightingMuggle]

Just like any other religion, there is a dark side to Wicca. But only if you chose to go down that path. (hehe I sounded a bit like Dumbledore) Most people who are serious about the Wiccan religion will never curse another person, or purposely harm another person, or turn anyone into a frog. BUT there are those people who claim to be Wiccan, who are only out for their own good, and will do anything to get what they want, and if they hurt other people to get it, oh well....
But there are people like that in every religion, which leads me to believe that it is not so much about religion as it is about your own personal morality. If you think it's ok to hurt others to get your own way, then there is no religion in the world that can stop you from doing it, or change your mind. It is a choice that you make...
Sometimes I think that a lot of people give Wicca a bad rap by saying that Wicca is evil and has a dark side, just because they know that it will be accepted by others due to the general perception of Witchcraft as an evil practice. But Wiccans who harm others are no more Wiccan than a Christian who does not follow his/her beliefs is a Christian.
To be part of a religion, in my mind at least, you have to try your hardest to live by the principles taught by that religion. If you just go out and do what ever it is that you want to do and you don't even think about your "religious beliefs" then you aren't truly what you claim to be. Does every one understand that? I'm not sure if I wrote it right or not....
The "Darkside" of any religion comes from people who fail to truly practice what they preach.

Now, Wiccans believe that there is not one solely evil entity. The ability to do evil is in each and everyone of us, as is the ability to do good. We have to choose which path we take. While most people will choose to do good, there are those who choose the evil path. This is not a "The Devil Made me Do It!" because there is no all evil entity. You alone are responsible for what you do, which path you take, and how you live your life. Even our Goddess and God are not all good all the time. They too have the ability to do harm and good. That is part of life. There are two sides to everything. We as wiccans have the ability to use energy that is around us, and then to project that energy into what ever it is that we would like to accomplish. This means that if you are doing good works, projecting good energy, you will recieve good results. The opposite, I am sure, will happen if you are using negativity when doing your magical working.

For me, I know, I have a rule that I do no spellwork to anyone unless I have permission from them, and that they understand what I am going to do. I will not put love spells on people to make them love me. I will not heal someone unless they have asked me and they understand that they have to help themselves heal too. I try to preserve and protect the Earth and I try to purchase products that are environmentally friendly. I don't litter. I recycle. I have never, and I don't know how to, turn anyone into a toad....ribbit, ribbit... But those are my rules, that is what I believe is right for me. There are others who would be completely opposite. It's sad but true. (Although I'd love to see that toad thing in action :rotfl: )

I don't mean to sound angry or upset at all, I know that sometimes I can come off that way. I just want people to understand my religion. Understanding is the key to respect. You don't have to like me, just respect me. That's how I try to live, that's the number one thing that I tell people when I tell them that I am Wiccan... you don't have to like it, just try to understand it and respect it.

I'm glad that people are asking questions about Wicca. We don't learn unless we ask, and I'm really glad that this forum is here so that people can read, ask, learn, and understand.

Blessings!
Josie

[Riot Girl]

Dark side of Wicca? I have never heard that saying before.But oh well.. I'm still relatively new- been Wiccan for almost a year now.
I have heard the belief that in Wicca, there is no white or dark magic. It is both because nature is both kind and cruel.

[FirefightingMuggle]

Riot Girl I guess what I meant to say more or less is that there are people who say they are Wiccan but don't live by the Wiccan Rede. They aren't really Wiccan, as they don't even try to follow the Rede. They do bad things, commit crimes and then say they are Wiccan.
There are people who feel the power of the Goddess and God and use it for ill.
They aren't anymore Wiccan than a person who says they are Christian and then pees on the Bible.

I guess it's not really a "dark side" of Wicca, but it is people like that who give Wicca a bad name. It's people who abuse the power that they find to harm others that is "dark" Most of us would never use our magick to hurt someone, but unfortunately there are those who would and do.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For anyone looking for some good beginners books about Wicca I personally reccomend Wicca: A guide for the Solitary Practioner and Living Wicca Both by Scott Cunningham.
Both are very basic, but they are more geared toward adult practioners and less toward teens and pre-teens.
And for more advanced practioners Cunningham also has some great reference books available. I have quite a few of his works and I love them.

[Emma]

I agree that Scott Cunningham's books are a good place to start. Another good place that I frequent is www.isisbooks.com they have just about everything that you would want and they ship their merchandise fast.

[malfoyfreak]

OK, I I have learned so much from this thread. And Im so happy cuz of that. But I have a problem. And I was wondering what to do. Im not exactly Christian, but my family is. And I'm really interested in Wicca but my family is against it. Do you think I could maybe buy a few books and make it look like I'm just trying to gain knowledge? And do u knw of any spells that could help a person to feel at peace?

[Midnightsfire]

Sacred Texts web site has loads of links.

Wicca and NeoPaganism (http://www.sacred-texts.com/pag/index.htm)

Internet Book of Shadows (http://www.sacred-texts.com/bos/index.htm)

[FirefightingMuggle]

I personally wouldn't give you a spell to help you feel at peace. But that's nothing against you, I just don't give away spells and very rarely will I do workings for another person unless they really need help and they give me permission.

My advice to you is to start working with meditation. Sit in a comfortable place and close your eyes. Breathe deeply at a regular pace (1-2-3-4 in; 1-2-3-4 out.) Once you begin to feel the tension leaving your body and your mind becomes a little more relaxed, picture yourself in a place that you have always felt happy. It could be the beach, a state park, the woods, a field, whatever. Then look around that place. What does it smell like? What does it sound like? Is anyone else there. Lay on the ground and feel the place around you. Visualize all this in your mind. Get details. Relax in this place. When you feel totally relaxed, slowly come back to the real world. If you want to write down what you experianced.

Surprise, this is a part of Wicca. You have to be able to visualize your needs and desires in your mind. You have to be able to meditate and relax your body and mind. It is very important to have good creative visualization skills. I think you'd find this in any book you pick up. Meditation and visualization is important.

And I bet you'll feel a lot less stressed after you do that meditation exercise. :)

[malfoyfreak]

I personally wouldn't give you a spell to help you feel at peace. But that's nothing against you, I just don't give away spells and very rarely will I do workings for another person unless they really need help and they give me permission.

My advice to you is to start working with meditation. Sit in a comfortable place and close your eyes. Breathe deeply at a regular pace (1-2-3-4 in; 1-2-3-4 out.) Once you begin to feel the tension leaving your body and your mind becomes a little more relaxed, picture yourself in a place that you have always felt happy. It could be the beach, a state park, the woods, a field, whatever. Then look around that place. What does it smell like? What does it sound like? Is anyone else there. Lay on the ground and feel the place around you. Visualize all this in your mind. Get details. Relax in this place. When you feel totally relaxed, slowly come back to the real world. If you want to write down what you experianced.

Surprise, this is a part of Wicca. You have to be able to visualize your needs and desires in your mind. You have to be able to meditate and relax your body and mind. It is very important to have good creative visualization skills. I think you'd find this in any book you pick up. Meditation and visualization is important.

And I bet you'll feel a lot less stressed after you do that meditation exercise. :)




I will definetely try this. Just reading what you wrote helped me feel relaxed. I hope it will help me. Thank you for sharing that little bit of advice with me:)

[HarryPotter]

I would consider myself wiccan for the past 8 years and am part of a pagan student group where we use the term "pagan" to cover all earth based religions- we have people who consider themself witches, wiccans, druids, asturian, strega, and just general pagans plus many many more who simply want to learn. Asturian? :wow:
I'm Asturian because I was born in the province of Asturias... could you please tell me a bit more about this?
Here in my province we have a lot of witchcraft practices and a deep celtic mythology and cuture... but I didn't know it was a religion itself...

[RowanDriscol]

Personally, I've always felt that the pagan denominations were more kinds of 'personal' religions (which I suppose would make sense, given that I am practicing solitairy). They allow their people to choose what to believe and what not to believe, and there are really only several die-cast "rules" people must follow (more important, arguably, being the three-fold rule or rede).

The greatest criticism that I've seen is that it is a selfish belief, and it somehow lacks because it doesn't require that large Kierkegaardian leap of faith that a lot of the Bible-centric religions focus on. It requires -- solitairy or no, in my experience -- that one draw upon their own internal strengths, and come to their own conclusions about the way things work. \

The deal with spells -- again, in my own experience -- is not quite what the Harry Potter books suggest, nor those online Book of Shadows. It is, again, a very personal experience. I think it comes from the fact that something only really seems powerful and real if it comes from your own realization; think about something you've been told your whole life that you only recently discovered really was true for you -- heck, think about the teenage years! They can tell you time and time again this 'it's bad for you,' or 'it's only a phase,' but until you realize it for yourself it is only words.

So it's a lesson in introspection. Enjoy the world around you, and find out what makes you think and what makes you feel better. Once you are better grounded, you are better able to face the world and lend a helping hand -- which is why teenagers really can't be trusted. :) (I speak as one of them, by the way, and mean nothing personal here. Naturally, everyone is different -- by "teenagers" I mean "people who haven't come into their own." This doesn't necessarily apply to everyone between the ages of 13 and 19, nor exclude anyone outside of it.)

... That was a lot of babble, in retrospect, but I do hope that it managed to convey at least a little of my perspectives on pagan beliefs.

[iluvhhr]

Wicca's a really cool religion. I was turned onto it from reading the Sweep series, by Cate Tiernan. I'm seriously thinking of following the religion. I love crystal and gem magic. Everyone who I've mentioned Wicca to seems understanding. They wouldn't care if I decided to do it. I don't have a religion.

[morgiana]

I would recommend the Mists of Avalon to anyone who doesn't believe the goddess has 4 faces for the 4 phases of the moon. Morgause is the dark side of the moon.

Even those of us who claim to be pure of heart are sometimes envious, jealous, angry, greedy. You wish someone ill will because of a slight or wrong. This is the dark face of the goddess.

If there was no dark side there would be no use for the 3 fold law.

Be careful what you send out for it will come back to you 3 times.

[msmooney]

This has been a really excellent thread - wicca is something that I've been interested in for awhile, but have never acted upon. I grew up in a household where church every Sunday was required, and I think I'm still recovering from it. Some things from my Christian upbringing I'll take with me: love your neighbor, do unto others as you would have them do unto you, and the overall notion that kindness and love is the way to be and to act. But other things...other things I want to leave so far behind. I cannot handle some of the hypocrisies of organized religion, nor will I ever forget crying myself to sleep when I was eight because I was convinced that I was going to hell. Truth be told, I'm still always nervous about that, as it was so well-engrained I don't know if I'll ever shake it. Yet, I never want to be a part of a religion that frightens me into being a moral human being.

I appreciate the reading suggestions, and would welcome other ideas for books appropriate for a twenty-something who is searching around for her niche. Thank you!
:)

[busy91]

I haven't studied Wiccan in years. I don't consider myself Wiccan, I'm a Pagan. I used to do a lot of spells but not so much any more, and my alter was never reassembled once I moved.

But I read a lot of great books. All the Scott Cunningham books and Richard Buckland books.

[Midnightsfire]

A Wiccan Wins One in South Carolina (http://www.thestate.com/mld/state/news/opinion/9378079.htm)

If you ask politely, Darla Kaye Wynne will acknowledge that she is indeed a Wiccan, which is to say, a Witch — but a Witch in the same uppercase way that Muslims are Islamic and Baptists are Christians. Her religious beliefs are rooted in pagan rites that antedate Christianity by a thousand years. Sad to say, some good Christians in Chester County have treated her in a most un-Christian way.

Perhaps her troubles will ease now that the 4th U.S. Circuit has ruled in her favor. Then again, maybe not. A huge part of the history of religion is a history of bigotry, zealotry and gross intolerance of nonbelievers. South Carolinians are probably no better and no worse than humankind everywhere.

Wynne’s story is not especially novel, and the 4th Circuit’s opinion of July 22 is not exactly a landmark in the field of First Amendment jurisprudence. Nonetheless, the case merits a few minutes of your time.

The story begins in 1997, when Wynne moved from the cold climes of Alaska to the warmer fields of South Carolina. She was single, aged 33. She found employment as a home-care aide and driver for Alzheimer’s patients. With her parrot, her Yorkshire terrier and two pet raccoons, she settled in Great Falls (pop. 2,194), some 40 miles north of Columbia. Largely out of curiosity, she began attending monthly meetings of the town council. Usually fewer than a dozen citizens showed up.

The meetings always opened with prayer. Everyone would stand and bow his head. Typically, one of the councilmen would ask “our heavenly Father” to guide them to beneficial decisions. “In the name of Jesus Christ, we pray. Amen.”

Wynne tried to show respect, but she grew increasingly uncomfortable. She asked Mayor Henry Clayton Starnes for a nonsectarian invocation. He refused. She suggested a rotation of local ministers. No way.

Once she stayed outside the council’s meeting room until the prayer ended. She was told she had waived her scheduled opportunity to speak. A councilman asked for a public hearing on her protests and her proposed alternatives. A hundred townspeople turned out to support the status quo. Several Christian ministers filed statements defending the council’s policy. Cries were heard of “Hallelujah!” The mayor told Wynne: “This is the way we’ve always done things, and we’re not going to change.”

Finally she brought suit in U.S. District Court, not for money damages, but for an injunction against patently sectarian invocations. Backed by the American Jewish Congress and the American Civil Liberties Union, she won. The town appealed to the 4th Circuit. She won again. Circuit Judge Diana Gribbon Motz spoke for a three-judge panel in ruling that the council’s invocations clearly advanced one faith in preference to others.

Judge Motz distinguished Wynne’s case from the often-cited case of Marsh v. Chambers. In that case, the Supreme Court in 1983 narrowly approved prayers to open sessions of the state legislature in Nebraska. She said: “The invocations at issue here, which specifically call upon Jesus Christ, are simply not constitutionally acceptable legislative prayer like that in Marsh.” As part of the council’s public business, it may not ritually seek guidance “from a deity in whose divinity only those of one faith believe.”

The Great Falls Council, Motz wrote, remains free to engage in nonsectarian invocations prior to its meetings. “The opportunity to do so may provide a source of strength to believers, and a time of quiet reflection for all. This opportunity does not, however, provide the town council, or any other legislative body, license to advance its own religious views in preference to all others, as the town council did here.”

This strikes me as a sound exposition of Establishment Clause jurisprudence. The Constitution says that Congress (and by extension, the states) shall make “no law” respecting an establishment of religion, but “no law” hasn’t meant literally “no law” since the day the ink dried on the founders’ labor. It is a passing irony that the Supreme Court itself begins its session by asking God to save “the United States and this honorable court.” The town council of Great Falls knows where to look for both divine and legal guidance.

While Great Falls chews on its defeat, the plaintiff Wynne seeks surcease. Her home has been vandalized nine times. Hoodlums have killed her cat and hanged its gutted body. Someone put sand in the gas tank of her truck. Townspeople have ostracized her. Even so, she comes across over the telephone as the most cheerful Witch I ever met. My acquaintance is limited, to be sure, but in this one I stand on the lady’s side.

[no1wiccan]

anybody here wiccan? (well actually, anybody here?)

Okay, i guess not.

well... now i am talking to myself *says hi to self* (thinking) am i weird?

[FirefightingMuggle]

I just read that last article posted by Midnightsfire, and while I am happy that the courts are indeed upholding the right of seperation of church and state, it sickens me that people are out to get this woman. Hanging her gutted cat??? that makes me sick. It simply sickens me that someone would take their interolance out on a poor defenseless animal. (I'm a bit of an animal rights person....)
I hope that the people that did that are found and thrown in jail for animal cruelty.
But cheers to a court upholding the constitutional rights of all our citizens.

[busy91]

Wow, a lot of Wiccan's here. I'm not Wiccan although I have studied it. It just wasn't for me, only because I don't belive in a God let alone a goddess. I prefer to be refered to as Pagan or Metaphysical.

I personally could not believe how a Wiccan can also be Christian, because the beliefs don't mesh, but to each his/her own. Do whatever makes you happy. Far be it for me to down anyone, we have too many others doing that to us already.

[Sunfish McCaul]

I think that out of all organized religions, Wicca is the one that's closest to my beliefs. I love the Wiccan Rede (basically, "do whatever you wish so long as it harms no-one) and the Three-fold Law (both good and bad acts will come back at you-in a karmic sense-three times over). They preach both benevolence and equality, and they don't actively seek to convert non-believers. Man... if I wasn't so spiritually content with theological apathy, I would convert.

[Alhanalasa]

Blessed be, all!

There's a lot of good info here. Let me add one of my long time favorite reference links: Mama Rose's Kitchen (http://www.iit.edu/~phillips/personal/contents/index.html). She hasn't updated this site in ages, but check out the bookshelf for good info. Maybe it's just nostalgia. She was hanging out on the ISCA bbc when I was first getting into Wicca (yes, ancient technology...back when the earth was still cooling, etc. :p ).

[Professor Gray]

Since there seems to be a fair amount of Wiccans here I have a question I’d like to pose if you’d all be so kind to answer. I’ll try to give as much info as I can in this post.

I’m pretty familiar with Wicca having read much on the subject and I also have a close friend who once was very heavy into Wicca and who regularly performed Wiccan rituals. She was also quite successful at astral travel as well. Although not consistent in any way, she still amazed me when she could sometimes tell me what I had done and sometimes even dreamt the night before in detail.

She confided in me that one night, while performing I think she said was a protection ritual that something happened that scared the heck out of her. She won’t tell me exactly what happened but said because of this, she had stopped the ritual before concluding it, dismissing the elementals, etc. never to perform another. Now, she did not change religions since then, she simply stopped practicing Wiccan rituals. That was about three years ago.

Things soon after seemed to take a down turn as far as luck for her. Multiple opportunities that looked like they were sure things suddenly fell apart at the last moment. It seemed that no matter how hard she tried to be successful, something always seemed to stop her with really no good explanation. In fact, the strange thing is, she used to be very ambitious but now it seems the harder she tried, the worse things became. As of today, she pretty much lost everything she once had including her home, car, and job. She’s in her thirties and back living with her parents now still jobless and broke.

Another strange thing is that where she seemed to be very popular and well liked when I first met her, people now seem to dislike her when they first meet her for no apparent reason even though she’s very nice, very intelligent, dresses very conservatively and is the type of person who is always there when you need help. Knowing her as I do, I highly doubt that she ever wished ill on anyone. In fact I’ve witnessed first hand when she did have a bad experience; one that I myself would have been furious about, she let bygones be bygones and just moved on. She really hadn’t changed from the way she looked or behaved when I first met her even through all her loses. Recently however, just in the past month, she has become very down, introverted and depressed. I’d really like to help her, but am at a loss for what to do.

My question is, what do you think happened and what would you advise to change her luck? Could this just be coincidence or is there something with her ending a ritual midway and never returning? Thanks.

[Alhanalasa]

I don't think it's necessarily just stopping the ritual midway (I've had to do that before, with no ill consequences). And it's probably not even that she stopped practicing. I think it's more to do with whatever happened that scared her so badly and hurt her confidence so much.

Without really knowing what happened, it's hard to give advice about what she should do. Perhaps something really quite simple, with out all the bells and whistles and whatnot. If she can go somewhere she feels is sacred (I go to a park nearby, or down to the waterfront) and just sit quietly and try to connect with a small part of what she gave up, she'd feel in control, and wouldn't worry about the Bad Thing happening again. Not to work any magic, but just to "pray" so to speak. Maybe chant a bit. Just a baby step, really. If she can work out what happened exactly, and why she was so scared by it, she can work past it enough to do something to regain her confidence.

Are their any other Wiccans around she can confide in? Or can she find an online community and explain anonymously what happened to get specific advice? I understand if she'd feel more comfortable telling people she doesn't really know. Then at least she could let it go, even if she doesn't want to be a practicing Wiccan ever again.

Whatever happened, and whatever she decides to do, at least she has a good friend who wants to help her. I wish you both well.

[Professor Gray]

I don't think it's necessarily just stopping the ritual midway (I've had to do that before, with no ill consequences). And it's probably not even that she stopped practicing. I think it's more to do with whatever happened that scared her so badly and hurt her confidence so much.

Without really knowing what happened, it's hard to give advice about what she should do. Perhaps something really quite simple, with out all the bells and whistles and whatnot. If she can go somewhere she feels is sacred (I go to a park nearby, or down to the waterfront) and just sit quietly and try to connect with a small part of what she gave up, she'd feel in control, and wouldn't worry about the Bad Thing happening again. Not to work any magic, but just to "pray" so to speak. Maybe chant a bit. Just a baby step, really. If she can work out what happened exactly, and why she was so scared by it, she can work past it enough to do something to regain her confidence.

Are their any other Wiccans around she can confide in? Or can she find an online community and explain anonymously what happened to get specific advice? I understand if she'd feel more comfortable telling people she doesn't really know. Then at least she could let it go, even if she doesn't want to be a practicing Wiccan ever again.

Whatever happened, and whatever she decides to do, at least she has a good friend who wants to help her. I wish you both well.

Thank you very much. I guess I need to increase my encouraging her and perhaps even offer to spend some time with her just sitting quietly by as she "prays" as you suggested. Perhaps if she can finally at least tell me what happened that would be a big step forward. Her aunt was Wiccan, but is now deceased and I think she was the only other Wiccan that she confided in. I doubt if she ever tried chatting on line. Since she has stated that I'm the only one whom she's close with that has an understanding of Wicca I'll have to do, although I am far from qualified to give any advice other than have her try what you have suggested.

She did tell me before that while doing rituals, that the elementals would appear as tiny silvery sparks around her in the darkness. She felt comfort with that and seemed to get a bit kick talking about their appearance, so whatever scared her I'm guessing was totally opposite.

At least now I can tell her by stopping the ritual midway caused no harm and that may give me a base to rebuild her confidence. She was so much happier back then.

Once again, thank you Alhanalasa! I'll see her this weekend. I'll post an update if I have any success.

[Kobila]

Out of body experiances are very hard to do, how did you accomplish it?

[kallie]

Wow, I am glad to see so many wiccans here. I see noone has posted for a while though. I love the thought of having a place to come and discuss :) Any other wiccan/pagan parents out there? If so I would like to talk to others who are in the same boat I am . 2 of my kkids want to be wiccan, 2 are too young and my husband doesn't believe in anything at all. We are having difficulty as to which holidays should be celebrated as a family and the like. Especially with tomorrow being Yule and all :) Blessed Be

[iluvhhr]

Kallie- I understand about the holidays. ;) I recently became Wiccan, and I celebrated Yule and Xmas. Even though my immediate family isn't Roman Catholic like the rest of my family is, we always celebrated Christmas anyway, and I don't think I could give it up.

[kallie]

But celebrating both is just a bigger pain for me. We did our family presents and Santa gifts on Yule, then yesterday my mom, dad , and sister came. I was ready to cry "Uncle" within an hour of them getting here. Don't get me wrong but they are rather overbearingly ( is that even a word?) Catholic. My son showed off his new neclace and said " See it looks like the God" ( it has a sun charm) My husband and I had to leave the room - I thought my Mom was going to explode. We were treated to the "you are going to he**" speech. Next year I think I'll tell the parents that we are going away for the holidays, and then unplug the phone and lock the doors :)
Anywho, sorry for the rant - did you all have a good holiday ?

[Alhanalasa]

I'm sorry you had such a tough time, Kallie!

I'm a solitary Wiccan, and my family doesn't really know. (We stopped talking about religion a loooooong time ago.) So, I do a private ritual on Yule, and then do Christmas day with Mom. Unfortunately, my brother lives in Tennessee and can't get here, so I'm missing him a lot this time of year. :upset: Christmas is a nostalgic thing, really. No religious significance, but a purely secular celebration of family, as far as I'm concerned.

My fiance is atheist, and HATES Christmas, but every year or so he'll go to his sister's house for Christmas eve. I'm not sure what's going to happen after we get married, but that has nothing to do with a conflict between Yule and Christmas.

If I had, or was planning ever to have, children, I'm sure it would be a big deal. I'd get the same sort of speech from my mom as you got, Kallie! But she's not Catholic, just Fundamentalist Protestant. She's mellowed a bit over the years, but she'd still flip if I ever brought up Wicca. I think it's not necessarily any of her business what my religous beliefs are, so it's fine.

[kallie]

:sad: I'm sorry you couldn't be with your brother.
I put my foot down long ago about the religious discussions but the only option I have left- since she won't leave it alone- is to ban them from my house and not go to her's . I am dreading if it comes to that because my kids need to know their grandparents.
As for your fiancee - he may do what my husband does... He refuses to buy, wrap, or even talk about what to get people ( present wise). He refuses to decorate - so it's up to me. Have you ever tried to buy gifts for a dozen people- with no help? It's not fun. I just try to keep happy thoughts in my head as not to ruin the season for my kids.
By the way the local paper actually had an article stating how christmas is based on Yule and the Roman holiday( sorry can't remember how to spell it) and how fundamentalists need to stop the bickering . :rotfl: Never thought anyone would print that.

[Alhanalasa]

By the way the local paper actually had an article stating how christmas is based on Yule and the Roman holiday( sorry can't remember how to spell it) and how fundamentalists need to stop the bickering . :rotfl: Never thought anyone would print that.



That's brilliant. The most you see in a paper around here is a nod at Halloween to Samhain. Was it an Op/Ed piece? Either way, I expect there will be all sorts of interesting letters to the editor in response to it.

[kallie]

There was no nod to Samhain at Halloween - won't go into that !
It was a regular article. And There were a couple more that alluded to it( being Yule/Winter Solstice) I am watching the "forum" section closely but right now it's bickering over a new ordinance. There seems to be a large Pagan community in the area so maybe everyone is treading carefully. ( I can only hope)
I'll let y'all know if there is any letters about it though. I'll have to check out witchvox and see if the article made it there.

[ladylestrange]

I would not have put this here, but you have the best comments on wiccan I've seen. I am a Christian by birth and baptism, but beleive in many of the things associated with wiccan as I see it. I am not very adept though. After seeing your extensive posts on the wiccan religion, I thought maybe someone could answer my question.

When my grandparents were young, in the 1960's they laughingly say that they were cursed by a woman at the racetrack who was called "Witch Mary" She said she was a practicing witch--I don't know if it was wiccan, but she was uncanily accurate in picking winning horses. Everyone knew that at the track and even asked her to bless their horses which she did and then asked the owner to bet on them for her. Since my grandparents are Christians, they didn't give it much thought though. Here's the problem. My grandparents forgot to place a bet for her and it came in. It paid well. She accused them of cheating her and truthfully--I wasn't born so I dont' know if they did or not.

She cursed them with a long line of words including something like bad luck will follow you and your progeny increasing three fold as time goes on Now they laughed the whole thing off. Some of the things that have happened since, my adoptive uncle, then a jockey was ruled off of the track for drug use. He was at the time of the curse, leading rider. An inordinate number of our horses have been hurt, one very expensive stallion broke his leg, not once but twice. In a freak accident one of our horses was stolen and returned to the track hurt. The track denied responsibility although they never should have let him out of the grounds, and we had to pay the vet bills and he has never been the same. My father has branched out into other business deals and my parents are currently some $300,000.00 in debt because everything they touch dies. Three different businesses have gone backrupt for my father. My mother tried to get her trainer's licence and is having a lot of trouble due to prejudice against woman trainers at her current track. My grandfather has had a heart attack and lost their house due to the corrupt builders that tried to build them another one. The attourney they hired, was no help. and grandpa ended up back in the hospital with another heart attack. My grandparents currently live on our property. My mother has started tithing at the Church because she thinks God can change their "luck" I am beginning to think that witch Mary gave them a very real curse. witch Mary is now dead and has no children that I know of. My mother currently has bad heath and is going in for surgery in a few weeks. I am afraid it will be something bad like cancer, although she says it is just nasal polips, my adoptive Aunt went in for nasal polips and ended up with brain cancer. She died several weeks later.

Is there a way to counter this in wiccan. Christian tithing doesn't seem to help and I am really, really worried.

Lady Lestrange

[halfbreedlover]

Wiccans don't curse people as far as I'm aware.

[Ana-Magus]

I had the opportunity to do some research on Wicca today. I'm still in the early stages of my research, but I read that curses and hexes, or any negative energy for that matter, are not wiccan practices. I do not think the witch in your story was wiccan.

[Kaitie]

Lady,

The Wiccan creed is "an ye harm none". They also basically believe, what comes around goes around---so if witch mary did curse your family, she would've cursed herself as well.

That said, if you really want to find peace and solice--seek the Lord. I feel the fear coming from your post, and I'm so sorry that you are so scared. :upset: Pray to God to help you change your fortunes, to help you feel peace and comfort but most importantly (and yes people will scoff but I've done it and it works) tell Satan to leave you alone. He only has power over you if you let him. Tell him to shut-up, to leave your family alone, to depart from your presence. Pray for a blessing on your house that the spirit of God will reside there, have your mom ask for a priesthood blessing (I'm not sure what church you go to, but I know that the LDS missionaries can give blessings of healing and comfort).

Basically, invite God in---kick Satan out.

[thethirdman]

Like others have said, the woman was not a Wiccan. If you want to take a pagan path to get rid of it I suggest you go out on either a Full Moon or a solstice. Both are belived to be times of power is paganism.

Cast a cirlce/call corners. It's the same thing. You should be able to find a good resource via google to tell you how to do it. You can also take a look through this book: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0875420508/qid=1108438239/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-3423029-8848010?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
...I can even tell you what the author says since I have the book myself. Or you can try a library.

You don't have to do everything exactly as the sources say. Just be comfortable when you do it. Once you've summoned powers, explain why you've called them and ask them to lift the curse and ill will placed on you by the person. If you have something of the woman's like a handwritten note you can get symbolic. Ask the powers to prevent the author of the object from harming you and your family. Make sure to say something like "with harm towards none, so mote it be." Then destroy the object, and get rid of the pieces. Throwing them in a river works well.

I did something like that once and it worked for me. If you are confused, or need more help you can owl me.

[Loz]

I believe that this can be discussed in Wiccan Religion (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=3158).


Actually I'll merge it.

[clkginny]

Wiccan's believe that any harm you do to someone else will be revisited on you three-fold. They are unlikely to curse anyone, knowing that they will be even worse off than the one they cursed.

Of course, there are evil people in any religion, and perhaps someone of the Wiccan belief did this. However, if you believe that it is a curse and it is affecting you, then you are creating your own circumstances. Belief is half the power of Wicca, to my understanding.

[Midnightsfire]

I would not have put this here, but you have the best comments on wiccan I've seen. I am a Christian by birth and baptism, but beleive in many of the things associated with wiccan as I see it. I am not very adept though. After seeing your extensive posts on the wiccan religion, I thought maybe someone could answer my question...

...Is there a way to counter this in wiccan. Christian tithing doesn't seem to help and I am really, really worried.

Lady Lestrange

Well, to begin, first recognize the possibility that coincidence is simply pointing the bad finger at you.

With that out of the way, despite what many here may believe, witches can be...witches. Bad and good. (The whole 3-fold idea is a relatively new one I believe)

*shrugs*

Add a couple of mirrors to the home (any size) and hang them...anywhere. (There's more to this idea than Feng Shui, and it may help.)

[Kobila]

An experienced Witch more than likely wont do any bad spells or curses because it only comes back to hurt them in the end.

Take away the magic aspect of it and just imagine how much negative thinking and energy goes in to a curse, you really have to be angry. Now being that angry and projecting that much negativity is really not a good thing at all, it only hurts you in the end.

[Taleeya]

I had the opportunity to do some research on Wicca today. I'm still in the early stages of my research, but I read that curses and hexes, or any negative energy for that matter, are not wiccan practices. I do not think the witch in your story was wiccan.

Well, whether she is a wiccan witch or not has no real bearing. There are hypocrites in every religion! And everyone has the ability to curse people, especially if they have a bad day.

So for my suggestion.... There are various rituals/spells to remove a curse... so you might want to try one of those. Owl me if you like.... But then try doing some affirmations, focusing on forgiveness. Tell Witch Mary that you forgive her for what she said, and affirm that she forgives you. Same with your grandparents and parents. And always remember yourself.

You might also want to do a protection ritual before surgery, and 'have a conversation' with whomever will make you feel comfortable, to protect you and keep you safe. This can be your ancestors, angels, god, mother nature, whomever you'd like. Always remember that YOU have more control and power over your life and destiny than anyone else does.