CoSForums Archive - Who will fall in love with whom? v31

pasalita

August 29th, 2004, 4:14 am

Greetings and welcome to an all new experience! Thats rights! Now active in the love thread are various deadly traps and decoys to throw you off the scent and get you mained brutally!! All for the enjoyment of your fellow shippers... Ahhh Society...

For those intwined within the last pages of version 30, please click here (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=32978) for your reference.

Rules stuff:

The love thread guidelines

Firstly, the love thread is generally a very well debated thread with many good and challenging ideas posed by our members. The guidelines being imposed here for this thread are not designed to restrict debate in any way. They are here because the thread has become an exceptional case for staff to administer.

The problem with a thread of this type is that there is an obvious division forming between those who ship for Harry/Hermione and those who ship for Ron/Hermione, plus supporters of other ships wading in with their own ideas. Naturally, tensions within this thread have increased, forcing staff to keep an extra eye on what is being said. This has resulted in many participants of the love thread sending PMs to members of staff justifying their own cases and attempting to prove the other side is guilty of causing misbehaviour. This is not helping to resolve the issue.

What is necessary for this thread:

Shippers

- Whatever ship you support, please remember to respect and appreciate alternative ships.
- Signatures or avatars that might potentially bash or mock other ships will NOT be allowed.
- Some ideas may seem more far-fetched than others. Please remember to respond in a manner befitting of a civil community.
- JK Rowling in her usual masterful way is keeping us on our toes about who will end up with who and therefore we cannot truly know until we know. We should all note that whilst we can know a lot from what we read, we do not yet know everything. Please keep that in mind

There will be a zero tolerant approach undertaken by staff towards any form of misbehaviour from now on. Here is how it will work:

- Members caught arguing and lowering the tone of the thread will be PM’d an instant warning and banned from the love thread for 30 days.
- A second offense by the member in that thread will result in a three month suspension. If the user is in Hogsmeade, they will be demoted as well.
- A third offense by the member will result in them being banned from the forums.

Please note: If you decide to post in here before your suspension is up, you will be banned from the site.

The full support of the Administration of CoS Forums is given to all staff when warning members, but as has been the case many times with the love thread, if you wish to raise a point about a warning you have received, then please send an owl with your concerns to Morgoth or rotsiepots or lanifiel.

The terms of use as laid out for this thread are non-negotiable and will be amended as and when is necessary. All new love threads created will have these guidelines posted in the opening post. At certain points during the thread, these guides maybe posted by a member of staff to defuse any potential situation.

Thank you

The CoS Forums Staff.

-----

On a side note: version 30 started on August 18th and was over 2800 posts before closing today. Sweet Jebus people - ya'll are crazy mad! :D

And... GO!

AvadaKedavra

August 29th, 2004, 4:14 am

Am I first?

ETA

Yes, I am! So that makes it twice that I've started off the LT. Yippee!

I <3 Ron

August 29th, 2004, 4:15 am

Gr, AV, I wanted it!

I don't think the shipping lists were in the last version, so let's get them up...

WeasleyIsOurKing

August 29th, 2004, 4:15 am

YAY first post! Woohoo!

Anyway.

Where were we? Discussing Harry/Hermione's arguments and Ron/Hermione's arguments?

EDIT: Okay, third post. :D

Picko

August 29th, 2004, 4:19 am

I'm fourth :D

Someone's got to include me as an anti-Ron shipper or in other words a shipper who's Pro-anythingthatdoesn'tincludeRonitit :p

Quaffle

August 29th, 2004, 4:20 am

Before an outbreak of Hipprogriff symbolism debates ensue, I'd like to through this quote into the fire (which I would like to credit Prongs, Sr. for first calling my attention to it):

Press Club October 1999 (http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/1999/1099-pressclubtransc.html)
SB: Why is the Hippograff a half eagle and a half horse?

JKR: Why is a Hippogriff a half eagle and half horse? Um, I didn’t invent a hippogriff. See, um, Medieval European people genuinely believed it existed. We won’t go into the reasons that might be. But, um, it’s a mythical creature, it’s an unusual mythical creature, it’s not as famous as a unicorn or a griffin. So, um, I don’t really know. You have to ask the medieval monks who did those beautiful illuminations and they drew them on there. Um, I’m very fond of my hippogriff, I like Buckbeak. If you read book 3, you’ll know who that is, if you haven’t, then that will be gobbledygook to you, so sorry.
Is it just me, or does she seem not as intelligible about the origin of hippogriffs as some H/Hr shippers appear to be because they hold it to a candle of symbolism? :rotfl:

ETA:
I hope I'm not the only one chuckling between the irony of WIOK's avatar and Picko's post :p

meg2089kul

August 29th, 2004, 4:27 am

SB: Why is the Hippograff a half eagle and a half horse?

JKR: Why is a Hippogriff a half eagle and half horse? Um, I didn’t invent a hippogriff. See, um, Medieval European people genuinely believed it existed. We won’t go into the reasons that might be. But, um, it’s a mythical creature, it’s an unusual mythical creature, it’s not as famous as a unicorn or a griffin. So, um, I don’t really know. You have to ask the medieval monks who did those beautiful illuminations and they drew them on there. Um, I’m very fond of my hippogriff, I like Buckbeak. If you read book 3, you’ll know who that is, if you haven’t, then that will be gobbledygook to you, so sorry.
Is it just me, or does she seem not as intelligible about the origin of hippogriffs as some H/Hr shippers appear to be because they hold it to a candle of symbolism?

Honestly, do you think she's about to say : Hippogriffs are symbols of love?! The most famous symbol for hippogriff would be love. If she did as much research as she said, she would be bound to know what it stands for. However, she isn't about to blurt it out. That would be just...well...unecessary.

xray

August 29th, 2004, 4:31 am

Greetings to all posters and lurkers: returning veterans and first-timers. :welcome: to the Love Thread!

If you wish to be added to a particular ship send me a PM (OWL) (http://www.cosforums.com/private.php?do=newpm&userid=12731).

H/Hr (HMS Harmony)
Aggroskater, Ang3l, Angel Spirit, Angie_Crawford, ArmaDeuS, Auror77, Avada Kedavra, Babyhalo19, BabyMars, Bccatcher4, Blackwillbeback, Blue Moon, Brisa, Buckbeak, Call Me Tonks, Camsin, Canteurervan, Chamber, Cheeseheads, Courtenay, DadOfHermyGinny, Dancer4life728, Dark Emperor, DarlingHermione, Daz, Dementor149, Demetri, Dobydoo, Dottie, Earendil, Ebonyink, Egla, EllieDelacour, Eno Imreh, Enowonkenobi, Epiphany, EricaM, Eshana, Esicardi, Evil_Hermione_G, Expelliarmus, Faiza, Fate, Feeniks, Field, Flucias1, FoxyDoxy, FlyingPhoenix, GadgetGal, Godrics Heiress, GeorgeWeasley, Goldensnitch04, Grace Granger, GrangerExpress, Grimly, Grinty19, Hannibal "Drax" Lecter, Harry19, Hawk 92, HermioneFan101, HermioneWitch28, Hope1272, Iseeubaby, JenniferH, Jewal, Jordmundt6, Kingharry, Krystallia, LeXoR, LordIluvatar, Mad Eye Mike, Mami, Marisa, Mega, Meg2089kul, Mirtilla, Miss Harmony, MnMbabe, Moonstruck, Moonylupin76, Mugpurehalf, Mumps, Narami, Nathaniel, Neon, Nia, No_braine, Noddwyd, Oliveros, Percivalwulfric, Perdita, Phantomwitch, Polaris15, Potterific, Prancer, Raidergurl, Rjade829, Sarmi, SenoritaNatasha, Shajjn, Sirius83, Solomon, Spikey, Tchen56, Tkdgirl555, The_Boy_Who_, The_5th_Marauder, ThePhoenixEffect, Tkdgirl555, Toltec 7, Trabb, Turambar, V@sh, Warwizard, XanderTheMighty, Zigwiwi

R/Hr (HMS Heron)
Abby Lupin, Adelaide, AisicsRule, Albusdaughter, Alfonso_X, Ami padme, Ana Banana, Anny, Archangel54, Asara, Astaire, AvadaKedavra, AzkabanResident, Bookies9, Burningphoenix, Caopotter, Cassellfor3, Charmed Cheese, Chop, Claireyellen, ComicBookWorm, Dah, DayVirgo, DragonChamber7, Daveydee, Deedlit, Discordia, Doxys, Drker2000, DumbledoreTheWise, Elfgirl831, Esmeralda, FairyDust, Fira_Felton, Flame_of_Arnor, Freckled Apples, FredFancier, Ginnythecat, GrangerGal, Guardian Angel, HeatherHobbit, HermioneMalfoy, Honeycombe, I <3 Ron, JacEjen, Jaffa_16uk, Jamara, JasmineFlower, Jenn_, Jennymac, JenShall, JofpGallagher, Josiah45, Keather, Kimothyjones, Kitkatcake1988, La_Ginny, Lady_Celestine, Last Slayer, Laufa, Legoami, Lindy, Linzee4life, Lotusjewel, Mad-I Moody, Madame Raden, MadMuggle, Maeve, Magician Girl, Maydeleat Greenly, Medb, Melcb98, Morgause, MrsSiriusBlack, Mugglegirl07, Niffler_8882, Noylj, Opsman14, Oxana, Pansy, Phoenix49, PitterPotter, Potter_Mom, Prof.Blink, Prongs, Sr., Quaffle, Robin, Rons my mate, Rowena Ravenclaw, Rowansjet, Rowlingfan1, RWC, Sarah_Hedwig, Savoy Truffle, Sheilajsn, Siriusly_obsess, Tane,Tee Time, Tigger101023, Veritas, VictorSeeker, Voldemolt14, Wannabeweasley, WeasleyIsOurKing, WhoAmI, X_thestral_x, Xray, Yo_dawg_sup?

H/G (HMS Chocolate)
Abby Lupin , Albusdaughter, Adelaide, Ana Baedlit, Archangel54, Astaire, Burningphoenix, Caopotter, Cassellfor3, Charmed Cheese, ComicBookWorm, Dah, Discordia, Doxys, Duckboy, DumbledoreTheWise, Elfgirl831, FairyDust, FireLass, Flame_of_Arnor, Foxy1770831, Freckled Apples, Gily Ann, Ginevera Weasly, Ginnythecat, Green_ginevra, GryffindorGr, Guardian Angel, Hawkeye, I <3 Ron, JasmineFlower, Jennymac, JenShall, Josiah45, Katarzyna, Keather, Lady_Celestine, Lindy, Linzee4life, MadMuggle, Magician Girl, Maeve, Morgause, MrsSiriusBlack, Noylj, Pansy, PitterPotter, Potter_Mom, Prongs, Sr., Quaffle, Rowena Ravenclaw, Rowlingfan1, RWC, Siriusly_obsess, Tee Time, Terrilein, Tigger101023, Veritas, WeasleyIsOurKing, Xray

H/L (HMS Moonlight)
AisicsRule, Ami padme, Drker2000, LunaGirl, Maeve, Rattan, Rons my mate, RosetteDelacour, Rowlingfan1, VictorSeeker, X_thestral_x

R/L (HMS Red Moon)
Archidemes, Avada Kedavra, DadOfHermyGinny, Dementor149, Dobydoo, Esicardi, Fate, Field, GadgetGal, Godrics Heiress, GryffindorGr, Hawk 92, Hope1272, JenniferH, Krystilla, Moonstruck, Mugpurehalf, The_5th_Marauder, XanderTheMighty

N/G (HMS Signs)
AisicsRule, Avada Kedavra, Dobydoo, Hawk 92, Ron's my mate, XanderTheMighty, X_thestral_x

N/L (HMS Big Fish)
ComicBookWorm, Flame_of_Arnor, Noylj, Xray

Neutral (HMS Plato)
Alci, Barbara Kennedy, CaseyAlthea, Cerebus, Chickadee, Cynismus, DeNiZeN989, DougJohnston, Drusilla, Haycheng, Mierin42

Notes:
ship is short for relationship.
I only keep track of some mainstream trio ships.
new entries (since the start of the current thread) are in italics.
HMS means Her Majesty's Ship or His Majesty's Ship, depending on whether there is a king or queen at the head of British government. All ships in the British Royal Navy have this before their name (e.g. HMS Victory). Other countries use similar labels. In the United States it's USS (United States Ship). Since Britain is the setting for the books we have adopted this for our own relationships.

xray

oliveros

August 29th, 2004, 4:31 am

cassellfor3

August 29th, 2004, 4:34 am

Honestly, do you think she's about to say : Hippogriffs are symbols of love?! The most famous symbol for hippogriff would be love. If she did as much research as she said, she would be bound to know what it stands for. However, she isn't about to blurt it out. That would be just...well...unecessary.

I think what Quaffle is trying to say is that JKR doesnt seem to have researched the history behind the Hippogrif. Not that JKR should have come out and said that it is a symbol for love.

AvadaKedavra

August 29th, 2004, 4:36 am

Since this got bogged down as one of the last posts of the previous thread, thought I'd repost it so that y'all don't miss it or anything.
.......................

Stic and anyone else that would care to read.

You do not know what she meant with the very, very vague "something". Could just as well have meant an unrequited interest of R in Hr.

That is not what the question indicated, and you know it. The question asked:

Is it just me, or was there something going on between Ron and Hermione during the last half of GOF?

The person asking the question starts off by querying their own interpretation, as if they were not sure if JKR intended them to reach that interpretation. They then continue to explain that interpretation: that something is going on (take careful note) between Ron and Hermione. The word "between". We'll come to this later.

Yes, something's "going on". But Ron doesn't realize it yet. Typical boy.

JKR then goes on to confirm that it is NOT the person's imagination, that something indeed is "going on" between Ron and Hermione, and JKR has intentionally written parts of GOF to show that "idea".

However, what I think is most interesting is the last two sentences, that JKR added. If the something "going on" was really referring to Ron's unrequited crush, then JKR is really saying this:

Yes, [Ron really does like Hermione]. But Ron doesn't realize it yet. Typical boy.

OR take the R/Hr interpretation:

Yes, [Ron and Hermione do like each other]. But Ron doesn't realize it yet. Typical boy.

The R/Hr interpretation makes more sense for two reasons:

#1: The term something 'going on' is commonly used as an euphesism for 'interactions' of a romantic nature. And the question stated- between Ron and Hermione. The question clearly slants towards enquiring about a mutual feeling between Ron and Hermione, not an unrequited crush.

However, JKR might've completely and honestly misunderstood the person asking the question and taken it (something going on) to mean as R-->Hr, and answered truthfully- yes, Ron likes Hermione. This is highly unlikely considering if she really did put the Hr-->R in, intentionally, as a red herring, she would have understood the person asking the question perfectly and understood the meaning of "something 'going on' between Ron and Hermione" perfectly, as she strove so hard to create this "illusion".

Or JKR decided to throw caution to the winds, and risk being called a liar and have to go into a detailed explanation to confused fans the complications of red herrings and the fortunate ambiguity of the question which allowed JKR to answer (technically) truthfully to the question, instantly misleading thousands to protect her ever-so-important red herring.

#2: The use of the word but. If JKR does indeed mean [Ron and Hermione do like each other], the word but makes perfect sense, as does the rest of the answer in so far that JKR is confirming that the foundation is there BUT it's not going to *happen* straight away because Ron doesn't realize it- a major difficulty. She even adds Ron is being a "typical boy"- he will grow out of it soon. Then it'll be my turn to hand you the tissues. :evil:

Zigiwiwi

Huhu, ok I see what you mean, again a lot of speculation,

But really I am speculating as much as you are here. You can't prove that passage means Hermione doesn't like Ron in that way as much as I can't prove that it means Hermione does. However, since you're using that as anti-evidence, all I have to do is successfully defend my way through the anti-evidence. Pressure's on you. :p

Even when he's complimenting her, she won't give anything in return.

Really? I saw three Ron compliments, provoking two reactions from Hermione and one non-reaction. Interestingly so, one reaction was in close proximity to one non-reaction, somewhat cancelling each other out. Besides, I don't hold much in store for Hermione's reaction to Ron's compliments. Ron is her best friend of 5 years and their friendship is so great and deep that a compliment is going to make minimal difference. I hardly would think (and would do a Luna-style eye popper and drop OOTP/HBP/Book7 in disgust) that Hermione would suddenly giggle, flutter her eyelids and respond extremely postively to Ron. Hermione will always be Hermione, and to judge her reactions out of the stereotype book of Parvatish is a bit dodgy, to say the least.

Ironically, you touch upon the very same thinking I employ here:

If not, well let's hope their friendship will not suffer to much from it. Because it's going to be very awkard. Or Ron will be wise enough and instead will choose to give up on her, better not to risk their friendship maybe ? It's not the same as with Viktor, he was not a friend, there was no risk in asker Hermione out.

Why don't you apply that to Hermione? This is a risky business, after all. One wrong move and it's disaster for a great, good friendship of 5 years. Surely Hermione must have her doubts from time to time- especially when the stakes are so great. A bit like a giant "Double or Nothing" game. Ron refuses to emerge from his "HateKrum" shell. The longer he doesn't emerge from it, the more Hermione doubts herself. Indeed, it's incredibly interesting that Hermione didn't even say a simple "Thanks for the perfume, Ron" when it's clear that doesn't automatically mean she likes him. Rather, I'm interested into the complete "non-event".

To sum up my views, I think the reasons Hermione doesn't give anything back is because she tries to discourage Ron. The reason why she has a bored tone in the beginning is because, obviously, Ron hasn't given up yet.

To sum up my views, I think the reasons Hermione doesn't give anything back is because she's exasperated with Ron's apparent unwilligness to come out of his "HateKrum" shell, and her doubts about whether "HateKrum" is geniune, or just a brotherly/friendly affection, as shown to Ginny. The reason why she has a bored tone in the begining is because, obviously, Ron hasn't quit his immature goading, and it's getting silly now.

Oliveros

Im a proud man, i keep my pride even at these forums

You know they say that it takes a braver man to walk away from a fight than get involved, a braver man to accept he is wrong than argue? Adopt that philosophy- take the courage to jump ship. Don't let notions of "loyalty" and "pride" hold you back. :evil:

Heatherhobbit

In GOF, everytime they had an arguement with sexual overtones, Hermione goes to her room. How's that for reading between the lines.

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

You have an habit of coming out with the best one-liners! Ever considered a career in comedy?

There's also a line in this excerpt that Ron says that is full of innuendo. But since this is a family friendly site, I won't point it out. But those of you who understand JKR's crafty use of double entendre will find it easily.

And the instance in COS, where Hermione is in the boys' bedroom, on Christmas Day, discussing the polyjuice potion. Go and read that bit, you'll pick the double entendre in no time.

Signing out,

Avada

P.S

I think this needs to be said: A big :tu: and :clap: for the tireless and hard work of IceKat55 and Melchb98
on those forums lately in delivering high quality, intelligent and articulate posts. Keep it up, fellow shippers!

Quaffle

August 29th, 2004, 4:40 am

oliveros

August 29th, 2004, 4:41 am

Oliveros

You know they say that it takes a braver man to walk away from a fight than get involved, a braver man to accept he is wrong than argue? Adopt that philosophy- take the courage to jump ship. Don't let notions of "loyalty" and "pride" hold you back. :evil:

Well, its more my common sense thats holding me back :p. I wont change ships until i see something in canon to convince me. I thought OotP might do the trick but it didnt

xray

August 29th, 2004, 4:42 am

thank you, xray! That's wonderful! So, you see, looking at the fact that buckbeak is a symbol of love would be reading between the lines! ;)Um, meg2089kul, I just wanted to point out that the definition was a joke :p Let me repost it for you :p

2 entries found for reading between the lines

From Harmºictionary.com :
1. To perceive or detect an obscure or unexpressed meaning; to pick and choose textual meaning according to what you prefer for the outcome of a novel.

From Heroºnary.com :
1. to understand more than is directly stated

:) :) :)

xray

EricaM

August 29th, 2004, 4:48 am

oliveros and meg2089kul

Firstly I conceive that JKR does not know about any love symbolism surrounding the Hippogriff.

The question: Why is the Hippograff a half eagle and a half horse?

The answer: <snip Medieval rambling> So, um, I don’t really know.

I agree with you oliveros about disregarding symbolism because there is so much outside research involved. I can relate this to Mark Evans in a way, what if the Hippogriff was used for that flight because Hippogriffs just happen to be an unusual flying creature that JKR liked? Not because it represents the impossible love/unity of two mortal enemies/various other things the Hippogriff has symbolized in other myths and literary works.

I dunno. Given that JKR is a student of the Classics and that she mentions the 'beautiful illuminations' would suggest to me that shes seen/read/studied said illuminations (illuminated manuscripts). I'm guessing that the medieval manuscript was "Orlando Furioso" which indroduces a hippogriff as a creature created/bread by a wizard.

Anywho, Harry and Hermione rode a hippogriff, it could have been a pegasus, it could have been a unicorn, it could have been a regular horse - however, whatever creature employed, the 'romantic' imagery (not necessarily H/Hr romantic but romance in general) is there. Hero/Heroine off on a quest to rescue someone etc. Also, Buckbeak is yet anothering that Harry and Hermione have in common/connects them.

Erica

Eno Imreh

August 29th, 2004, 4:49 am

xray, that is great! Very clever... I like it! :rotfl:

And just for my own curiosity, what do you mean in your signature by 'A Union of Power'?

LordIluvatar

August 29th, 2004, 4:50 am

oliveros and meg2089kul

Firstly I conceive that JKR does not know about any love symbolism surrounding the Hippogriff.

The question: Why is the Hippograff a half eagle and a half horse?

The answer: <snip Medieval rambling> So, um, I don’t really know.

I agree with you oliveros about disregarding symbolism because there is so much outside research involved. I can relate this to Mark Evans in a way, what if the Hippogriff was used for that flight because Hippogriffs just happen to be an unusual flying creature that JKR liked? Not because it represents the impossible love/unity of two mortal enemies/various other things the Hippogriff has symbolized in other myths and literary works.

I think i may agree here....i dont think we can yous symbolism
and because a hippogryph symbolizes an impossible love....or an impossible thing...or thats what i found when i searched for it...

But if we do yous hippogryph symbolism i think it will mean h/hr get together but one of them will die...or something bad happens an they get seperated or what not

EDIT: can anyone acculay give me a site with the symbolism of a hippogryph? Cause the only one i found states is a symbol of impossible love

no_braine

August 29th, 2004, 4:51 am

I <3 Ron

August 29th, 2004, 4:51 am

I think i may agree here....i dont think we can yous symbolism
and because a hippogryph symbolizes an impossible love....or an impossible thing
Oh well, in that case, let's use symbolism! :p

no_braine

August 29th, 2004, 4:54 am

but really, jk seems to not know much about any underlying meaning within a hippogriff, i just think she thought it would be a neat creature that flies..... i think saying that harry and hermione riding it meant instant love......but hey, im just being unreasonable

I <3 Ron

August 29th, 2004, 4:57 am

LordIluvatar

August 29th, 2004, 4:59 am

Oh well, in that case, let's use symbolism! :p

o...phew at least there our other stuff that can prove the hippogryph symbolism wrong like a sphinx :p
But im still skeptical on the whole symbolism stuff

I <3 Ron

August 29th, 2004, 5:02 am

o...phew at least there our other stuff that can prove the hippogryph symbolism wrong like a sphinx :p
But im still skeptical on the whole symbolism stuff
What about the sphinx?

I agree, getting all symbolic is too confusing. Although some of the things in the book are clearly symbolic (Gryffindor's lion for example), let's not get too carried away with it.

Last Slayer

August 29th, 2004, 5:07 am

Will Ron and Hermione ever get together??

JKR: "Well-[laughter] What do you think [Audience memeber: I think they will]. Im not going to say. I cant, can I? I think that, by now, I've given quite a lot of clues on the subject. That's all I'm going to say. You will have to read between the lines on that one"

well, any clues that the herons are throwing out involve being very overt. if jk says we need to read between the lines, which is something you dont have to do if u want ron and hermione together, then it indicates a non-hr/r turnout. it doesnt suport any other ship, but definitely tries to put a small hole in the heronI'm not quite convinced of this logic, actually. Not to insult JKR's intelligence, but I have the feeling that she thinks she's been quite clever about R/Hr in that (from my POV, anways) they will get together at some point in the book. In fact, the quote in itself is an answer to a direct question of Ron and Hermione--there is no Harry mentioned whatsoever. She says "I've given quite a lot of clues on the subject." that subject being the one brought up in the original question "Will Ron and Hermione ever get together??" Perhaps if the question had asked "Who will get together? Harry and Hermione or Ron and Hermione?" then the answer would be more ambiguous...but that wasn't the question. It dealt specifically with R/Hr.

Melcb98

August 29th, 2004, 5:09 am

JKR wrote 'Fantastic Beasts & Where to find them.' Nowhere in the discription of a Hippogriff in that book does it say that it sympols anything about love. Therefore, I think we can logically conclude that JKR does not use the hippogriff to symbolize anything. If she did, she would have put in that clue in the book.

The sphinx is also not said to symbolize anything, just that it is logical and likes to solve puzzles.

LordIluvatar

August 29th, 2004, 5:12 am

This is just an opinion of one of my friends on the whole shipping debates though i disagree with him on some parts i do respect his opinion cause ive know him for almost 10 years so here is what he had to say:

I think that Draco Malfoy secretly has a crush on Hermione, but I do not think that this will ever be a major part of the books. I really think that Ron has unrequited (to love someone an not have it returend) love for Hermione, because Hermione strictly thinks of Ron as a friend and only a friend. Hermione also thinks of Harry as just a friend and nothing more so romance will most likely not "bud" between them. Any inclination that Hermione likes either Ron or Harry in the story is simply just an example of how much she cares about both of them as friends.

I do agree with ron having unrequited love for hermione though :p

xray

August 29th, 2004, 5:16 am

I dunno. Given that JKR is a student of the Classics and that she mentions the 'beautiful illuminations' would suggest to me that shes seen/read/studied said illuminations (illuminated manuscripts). I'm guessing that the medieval manuscript was "Orlando Furioso" which indroduces a hippogriff as a creature created/bread by a wizard.
Hi EricaM,

I know that JKR didn't intend to write this mythological symbolism in the book. She said so.
xray, that is great! Very clever... I like it!

And just for my own curiosity, what do you mean in your signature by 'A Union of Power'?Thanks!

Ginny is a powerful witch. Harry is a powerful wizard. H/G is a union of power :)

xray

I <3 Ron

August 29th, 2004, 5:17 am

I think that Draco Malfoy secretly has a crush on Hermione
Lol, I'm guessing your friend has a thing for fan fics? Cause I have this weird feeling that Draco has a crush on Ginny...

Carina

August 29th, 2004, 5:18 am

These are my responses to meg2089kul's responses to FredFancier. :angel:

Quote:
"What about Ron, though?" he said. "Don't you want to go with him?"
"Oh...well..." Hermione went slightly pink. "I thought we might meet up with him in the Three Broomsticks..."

Harry figured out Hermione's plan. And you find out that she wouldn't rather go with Ron. she'd rather go with harry...which she does. And ron doesn't even invite her when she sees her alone at the three broomskisk.

Hermione would rather go with Harry because this was a time when no one else supported him. Ron had friends to hang out with but Harry didn't - so beacuse she's a nice person, Hermione accompanied Harry.

Quote:
"You saved 'er," she said breathlessly. "Even though she was not your 'ostage."
"Yeah," said Harry, who was now heartily wishing he'd left all three girls tied to the statue.
Fleur bent down, kissed Harry twice on each cheek, and said to Ron, "And you, too - you 'elped-"
"Yeah," said Ron, looking extremely hopeful, "yeah, a bit -"
Fleur swooped down on him, too, and kissed him. Hermione looked simply furious...

Notice the period only after Fleur kissed both boys. Hermione looked furious when Fleur was finished with both. She also doesn't like the fact that Ron is getting praised for something that he didn't even do by a girl that he goggles at that isn't mean. It isn't a hermone to accept something like that.

JKR could have added a period after Fleur kissed Harry and wrote that Hermione looked furious then and there. It's not like she ran out of full-stops. JKR is a very clever writer of course and she had a good reason to write "Hermione looked simply furious" after Ron was kissed.

Quote:
"All the good-looking ones taken, Ron?" said Hermione loftily. "Eloise Midgen starting to look quite pretty now, is she? Well, I'm sure you'll find someone somewhere who'll have you."
But Ron was staring at Hermione as though suddenly seeing her in a whole new light.
"Hermione, Neville's right, you are a girl..."
"Oh well spotted," she said acidly.
"Well, you can come with one of us!"
"No, I can't," snapped Hermione.
"Oh come on," he said impatiently, "we need partners, we're going to look really stupid if we haven't got any, everyone else has..."
"I can't come with you," said Hermione, now blushing, "because I'm already going with someone."
"No, you're not!" said Ron. "You just said that to get rid of Neville!"
"Oh did I?" said Hermione, and her eyes flashed dangerously. "Just because it's taken you three years to notice, Ron, doesn't mean no one else has spotted I'm a girl!"
Ron stared at her. Then he grinned again.

If hermione liked Ron, she was in love with the wrong person.

Hermione liked Ron and vice versa and before I say the word "obvious" I have to explain some stuff. What JKR meant by the obvious couple in GoF were the ones actually in words. For example, we know Ron liked Fleur. We know Harry liked Cho a lot. And we know Krum liked Hermione. These were written in words and even a little kid can understand that. But there's another kind of "obvious" that shippers use. It means reading between the lines. JKR does not say Ron liked Hermione straight-out like she does with Fleur.

Still, everyone was in love with the wrong person. Never get tired of saying it. And how do we know there will be another ball? erm...we don't? So will Ron ask her? I doubt it. He could well develop nother love interest. Who said he had to stick to Hermione?

From what JKR wrote, Ron had a crush on Fleur. That's one of the wrong couples JKR talked about. It what we read , not what we figure out .

"Oh," said Ron, his smile fading slightly. "Are you that bad at kissing?"
"Dunno," said Harry, who hadn't considered this, and immediately felt rather worried. "Maybe I am."
"Of course you're not," said Hermione absently, still scribbling away at her letter.
"How do you know?" said Ron very sharply.

Does Ron suspect something? And why does Hermione suddenly say that if she's not going to eventually find out for herself, I wonder?

Yes, Ron obviously suspects something between Harry and Hermione there. That's got absolutely nothing to do with what's really there.

Quote:
"Good luck, Ron," said Hermione, standing on tiptoe and kissing him on the cheek. "And you, Harry -"
Ron seemed to come to himself slightly as they walked back across the Great Hall. He touched the spot on his face where Hermione had kissed him, looking puzzled, as though he was not quite sure what had just happened.

"And you, Harry - " 'nUff said. And notice that Harry was the first to get the "never before" kiss. And Harry didn' get the chance to react because fred and george interrupted.

Harry did have a chance to react actually. Harry had enough time to noticed Ron's reaction as they were walking back across the Great Hall . Harry simply didn't have a reaction or else we would have read about it. Remember, these books are in Harry's P.O.V.

Quote:
"We'll have to, Harry, she'll force it out of you anyway, what's the point...?"
And Hermione began to cry weakly into the back of Milicent Bulstrode's robes.
Milicent stopped trying to push her against the wall immediately and dodged out of her way looking disgruntled.
"Well, well, well!" said Umbridge, looking triumphant. "Little Miss Question-All is going to give us some answers! Come on then, girl, come on!"
"Er-my-nee-no!" shouted Ron through his gag.

I don't see your point here at all. this is entirely h/hr. Ron doesn't care that harry will get hurt, he doesn't want to have OotP discovered. This has nothing to do with Hermione. Hermione screamed out out of the fact that Harry was about to get hurt.

It's not "entirely h/hr" in my opinion. Just before you write this, you wrote Harry also defens Hermione. So does Ginny, Fred and George. It's an instinct. Not love.
So Hermione screaming out of the fact that Harry was about to get hurt was "an instint. Not love." So I don't see anything shippy about this part.

Quote:
Q: Is it just me, or was something going on between Ron and Hermione during the last half of Goblet of Fire?
A: "Yes, something's "going on," but Ron doesn't realize it yet. Typical boy." -- J.K. Rowling's response to a fan question at barnesandnoble.com

Yeah, on Ron's behalf. And, also, in her words, everyone's in love with the wrong person.

When JKR said everyone's in love with the wrong person, this was in GoF and quite clearly, as we can READ it, Ron had a crush on Fleur.

Quote:
"Harry and Hermione are very platonic friends. But I won't answer for anyone else, nudge, nudge, wink, wink." - J.K Rowling (National Press Club Luncheon, October 1999)

This was for GoF. It's over already. Otherwise, she'd just keep repeating it.

It's funny how you didn't say this for the "everyone's in love with the wrong person" quote...

cassellfor3

August 29th, 2004, 5:19 am

Lol, I'm guessing your friend has a thing for fan fics? Cause I have this weird feeling that Draco has a crush on Ginny...

What gives you that idea? I can't think of anything canon, perhaps its fan fics like you said.

LordIluvatar

August 29th, 2004, 5:19 am

Lol, I'm guessing your friend has a thing for fan fics? Cause I have this weird feeling that Draco has a crush on Ginny...

Accualy he doesnt read fanficiton i kinda just asked im out of no where who he thought would get together...i mean he may be rite maybe draco does have a secret crush on hemione but we all know that they wont end up together cause jkr already sunk that ship thank god :p

I <3 Ron

August 29th, 2004, 5:20 am

What gives you that idea? I can't think of anything canon, perhaps its fan fics like you said.
Lol yeah, I was just kidding. I know it will never happen, but one can dream.

Accualy he doesnt read fanficiton i kinda just asked im out of no where who he thought would get together...i mean he may be rite maybe draco does have a secret crush on hemione but we all know that they wont end up together cause jkr already sunk that ship thank god
And maybe his secret crush will make him turn to the good side! That would be a fic writer's dream come true. I agree though, that ship would creep me out, but I could definitely deal with Draco/Ginny.

Hulk

August 29th, 2004, 5:28 am

xray

August 29th, 2004, 5:36 am

I dunno if JKR knew the symbolism of the Hippogriff, but I trust her to 'play fair' and not to use things which need outside research of the books. Take the Grim symbolism(if it is one) as an example, she did spend some paragraphs explaining it to us in PoA.JKR researches things if she knows there is an existing background. She was asked, "Is there a certain amount of very sophisticated mythology that you're trying to work in here?" and she said no. But she did say that if something already exists she will research it in order to get the details proper.

xray

WeasleyIsOurKing

August 29th, 2004, 5:42 am

I hope I'm not the only one chuckling between the irony of WIOK's avatar and Picko's post :p

:lol: Well, everyone who matters loves Ron. ;)

Hulk

August 29th, 2004, 6:09 am

JKR researches things if she knows there is an existing background. She was asked, "Is there a certain amount of very sophisticated mythology that you're trying to work in here?" and she said no. But she did say that if something already exists she will research it in order to get the details proper.

xray

Maybe she did the research, but at the same time she would expect most of the readers not to do the same research. So she would have provide the information to us in the books, just like the 'Grim means Death' is told to us in more than one instance. That's what I mean 'play fair'.

meg2089kul

August 29th, 2004, 6:37 am

Firstly I conceive that JKR does not know about any love symbolism surrounding the Hippogriff.

The question: Why is the Hippograff a half eagle and a half horse?

The answer: <snip Medieval rambling> So, um, I don’t really know.

I agree with you oliveros about disregarding symbolism because there is so much outside research involved. I can relate this to Mark Evans in a way, what if the Hippogriff was used for that flight because Hippogriffs just happen to be an unusual flying creature that JKR liked? Not because it represents the impossible love/unity of two mortal enemies/various other things the Hippogriff has symbolized in other myths and literary works.

Well, I understand that she said that she didn't know why it was half horse and half eagle and I think that I would have answered the same if I were her even though I know that it is a mix between a griffin and a horse (notice she said the hyppogriff wasn't as famous as a griffin and a unicorn - the two are alike the parents of a hippogriff, so she might know more that it seems.) This is why: Why would the part of a griffin be chose to be the eagle and the other part of the hippogriff a horse. Like she said, only the monks know that. Why in that particular order - who knows! However, she was not asked where the hippogriff comes from or how it came to be, she was asked why it is half griffin and half horse, to which even I don't know the answer. However, if you simply search for any hippogriff info on the net, you will find that it states that it is a symbol of love. JKR did a lot of reaseach for the HP books. I'm sure she ran across hippogriff information amongst it.
Now, the real challenge is that it is a symbol of impossibility. Let me clarify that: it is a symbol of the impossible MADE possible. If the parents of a hippogriff were mortal enemies and couldn't get together, then it would be a romeo/juliet sort of thing, meaning that it would be somethin imporssible. However, since the hippogriff came to be, it would actually be something impossible made possible. Just like rescuing Sirius: its seemed impossible, but it was still made possible. Even Sirius coudn't believe it when h/hr were outside his window. When hermione got Harry out of the room with Buckbeak, it was an impossible task for everyone else, yet Hermione still managed it. H/hr rode on buckbeak. It all fits!

phantomwitch

August 29th, 2004, 6:40 am

oh, and i was wondering, how do the regular readers pick up the " read between the lines" parts of r/h and, and still manage to be regular readers? :huh: :eyebrows:

koetje

August 29th, 2004, 6:40 am

well hermyony thus have short toes when it comes to ron :) I always hoped that harry will get someone who isn't in the books already and ron being so underestimated by him self and his lack of convidence will have a greater chance to end up with hermiony

wannabeweasley

August 29th, 2004, 6:45 am

:tu: :lol: Well, everyone who matters loves Ron. ;)
That is the truest statement ever said in the LT.

true_gryffindor

August 29th, 2004, 6:46 am

I was just reading GoF again and I came across and interesting passage

This is from chapter 19 of GoF:The Hungarian Horntail:
On the Saturday before the first task, all students in the third year and above were permitted to visit the village of Hogsmeade. Hermione told Harry that it would do him good to get away from the castle for a bit, and Harry didn't need much persuasion.
"What about Ron, though?" he said. "Don't you want to go with him?"
"Oh...well..." Hermione went slightly pink. "I thought we might meet up with him in the Three Broomsticks..."

Why does Hermione blush? Is it because she likes Ron (indicating Hr-->Ron)? Harry seems to think so since he implies that Hr would rather go there with Ron than with him.

What are your thoughts on this?

Ronnie89

August 29th, 2004, 6:48 am

Lol, I'm guessing your friend has a thing for fan fics? Cause I have this weird feeling that Draco has a crush on Ginny...

Hey, another D/G shipper! Yay. I love H/Hr, R/L, and D/G. I've always loved H/hr, but a friend of mine got me into R/L and D/G from a couple of her fanfics, and now I'm trying to find canon to back them both up...

wannabeweasley

August 29th, 2004, 6:50 am

I was just reading GoF again and I came across and interesting passage

This is from chapter 19 of GoF:The Hungarian Horntail:

Why does Hermione flush? Is it because she likes Ron (indicating Hr-->Ron)? Harry seems to think so since he implies that Hr would rather go there with Ron than with him.

What are your thoughts on this?
I'm not sure if it indicates Hr--->R. IMO it does. But even more than that, I think it indicates that Harry is a Heron shipper. Why does Harry bring Ron up? It seems as if Harry assumes that Hermione wants to spend time with Ron. Harry and Hermione are great friends. Hermione knows that he fancies Cho, and I think Harry can see what's going on between his two best friends with almost the same clarity.

Melcb98

August 29th, 2004, 6:50 am

meg2089kul- I already posted this, but I'll post it again.

JKR wrote 'Fantastic Beasts & Where to find them.' Nowhere in the discription of a Hippogriff in that book does it say that it sympols anything about love or anything else. Therefore, I think we can logically conclude that JKR does not use the hippogriff to symbolize anything. If she did, she would have put in that clue in the book.

The hipppgriff is just another creature, in a world full of creatures.

phantomwitch- Easy. "Reading between the lines," does not have to be difficult.

ronnie89 - Sorry, but there is no canon for Draco and Ginny. Thats is made up in fanfictionland. And, I wouldn't base any ship on fanfiction.

wannabeweasley

August 29th, 2004, 6:54 am

The hipppgriff is just another creature, in a world full of creatures.
That's deep. LOL

Easy. "Reading between the lines," does not have to be difficult.

I agree with you. I think both Heron and Harmony (and Chocolate for that matter) read between the lines. The only problem is that we disagree as to which lines to look behind.

meg2089kul

August 29th, 2004, 6:57 am

Hermione would rather go with Harry because this was a time when no one else supported him. Ron had friends to hang out with but Harry didn't - so beacuse she's a nice person, Hermione accompanied Harry.

So you're saying that Hermione felt sorry for Harry? And yet there's my point: hermione stuck to Harry.

JKR could have added a period after Fleur kissed Harry and wrote that Hermione looked furious then and there. It's not like she ran out of full-stops. JKR is a very clever writer of course and she had a good reason to write "Hermione looked simply furious" after Ron was kissed.

Yes, but Hermione didn't like veelas at all. Ron was getting praised for something that he shouldn't be and getting attention from a beautiful girl only because she's beautiful. Hermione can't stand that. It's against her in every way. She doesn't like it when boys goggle at any girl. Be it Ron, Harry, or whoever. "when both of you have put your eyes back in, you'll be able to see who's just arrived."

Hermione liked Ron and vice versa and before I say the word "obvious" I have to explain some stuff. What JKR meant by the obvious couple in GoF were the ones actually in words. For example, we know Ron liked Fleur. We know Harry liked Cho a lot. And we know Krum liked Hermione. These were written in words and even a little kid can understand that. But there's another kind of "obvious" that shippers use. It means reading between the lines. JKR does not say Ron liked Hermione straight-out like she does with Fleur.

Ah, but r/hr was written out. Practically by Harry himself. Remember the "gotten the point" quote?

From what JKR wrote, Ron had a crush on Fleur. That's one of the wrong couples JKR talked about. It what we read , not what we figure out .

Ron was attracted by Fleur by her charm. Harry could resist it. Some like to say that he had a crush on Hermione as well. "Hermione - Neville's right - you are a girl!"

Yes, Ron obviously suspects something between Harry and Hermione there. That's got absolutely nothing to do with what's really there.

But the important thing is that he is able to suspect it. Which means that it is entirely possible for h/hr to get together if their own best friend might think that something may have been going on behind his back.

Harry did have a chance to react actually. Harry had enough time to noticed Ron's reaction as they were walking back across the Great Hall . Harry simply didn't have a reaction or else we would have read about it. Remember, these books are in Harry's P.O.V.

No, I was talking about a reaction to Hermione's kiss after GoF when fred and george cut in. He did, however, notice that it was something that she had never done before.

It's not "entirely h/hr" in my opinion. Just before you write this, you wrote
So Hermione screaming out of the fact that Harry was about to get hurt was "an instint. Not love." So I don't see anything shippy about this part.

She didn't scream out once. She protested about three or four times and said "I'm sorry every one but - I can't take it."

When JKR said everyone's in love with the wrong person, this was in GoF and quite clearly, as we can READ it, Ron had a crush on Fleur.

So you can't read that Ron might have had a crush on Hermione in GoF? :rotfl: That's like obvious beyond obvious. Even Harry saw it, and between you and me, that's saying something.

Carina

August 29th, 2004, 7:01 am

So you can't read that Ron might have had a crush on Hermione in GoF? That's like obvious beyond obvious. Even Harry saw it, and between you and me, that's saying something.
Of course I read it. ;) That's why I'm a R/Hr shipper.
It's obvious they're in love but none of them STRAIGHT-OUT said it. So I mean it's not obvious in THAT particular way.

meg2089kul

August 29th, 2004, 7:01 am

JKR wrote 'Fantastic Beasts & Where to find them.' Nowhere in the discription of a Hippogriff in that book does it say that it sympols anything about love or anything else. Therefore, I think we can logically conclude that JKR does not use the hippogriff to symbolize anything. If she did, she would have put in that clue in the book.

The hipppgriff is just another creature, in a world full of creatures.

And I already said this, she wouldn't put in something as "hippogriffs are symbols of love" in a book written by her when h/hr rode on buckbeak. That would be giving EVERYTHING away. This is where the reading between the lines comes in. That's our job.

Melcb98

August 29th, 2004, 7:01 am

Ah, but r/hr was written out. Practically by Harry himself. Remember the "gotten the point" quote?
Wow, you are the only H/H shipper I know that actually believes that Harry knows Ron likes Hermione. Interesting.
But, what your saying is not really quite the same. We know that Ron likes Hermione from "reading between the line." Harry's "gotten the point" quote, does not say what the point is- but we get it, because we are "reading between the lines."

meg2089kul

August 29th, 2004, 7:02 am

Of course I read it. That's why I'm a R/Hr shipper.
It's obvious they're in love but none of them STRAIGHT-OUT said it. So I mean it's not obvious in THAT particular way.

Wow, that's deep. Really deep. :rotfl:

phantomwitch

August 29th, 2004, 7:03 am

is it blatant or is it hidden? you cant have it both ways, you guys...and you tell us we twist clues to support us, well it seems like you twist your arguments to fit clues....

Melcb98

August 29th, 2004, 7:03 am

And I already said this, she wouldn't put in something as "hippogriffs are symbols of love" in a book written by her when h/hr rode on buckbeak. That would be giving EVERYTHING away. This is where the reading between the lines comes in. That's our job.
No, she would. If she wants us to know something, she puts it there. If she writes a book about beasts, and writes a section on Hippogriffs, and does not include any sybolism in there, than it is not important. Add that to the quote that was posted. I don't it is farfetched to say that the Hippogriff does not symbolize anything in JKR's world.

meg2089kul

August 29th, 2004, 7:09 am

Wow, you are the only H/H shipper I know that actually believes that Harry knows Ron likes Hermione. Interesting.
But, what your saying is not really quite the same. We know that Ron likes Hermione from "reading between the line." Harry's "gotten the point" quote, does not say what the point is- but we get it, because we are "reading between the lines."

It isn't particularly "reading between the lines" simply because Hermione had said "ask me later if you're going to be a jerk about it" and Harry said that she had gotten the point that ron had wanted to ask her and was being naive about it.

No, she would. If she wants us to know something, she puts it there. If she writes a book about beasts, and writes a section on Hippogriffs, and does not include any sybolism in there, than it is not important. Add that to the quote that was posted. I don't it is farfetched to say that the Hippogriff does not symbolize anything in JKR's world.

Why wouldn't it symbolize something. You're trying to avoid symbolism altogether if you look at it simply because your ship doesn't have much. The idea is that you look into it. Just because she doesn't shove it under our nose, doesn't mean it's not important!

Quote:
"Harry and Hermione are very platonic friends. But I won't answer for anyone else, nudge, nudge, wink, wink." - J.K Rowling (National Press Club Luncheon, October 1999)

This was for GoF. It's over already. Otherwise, she'd just keep repeating it.

It's funny how you didn't say this for the "everyone's in love with the wrong person" quote...

I don't see your point. Didn't JKR say that the answer to whether or not Hermione liked Ron was in GoF?

Melcb98

August 29th, 2004, 7:10 am

is it blatant or is it hidden? you cant have it both ways, you guys...and you tell us we twist clues to support us, well it seems like you twist your arguments to fit clues....
Those to things can go hand in hand if you use the right words. "Reading between the lines," and having something be obvious can work. It was done in the books already.
How do we know that Ron likes Hermione? Its obvious right? Well, it was never said to us. Ron never came out and said it. We "read between the lines," everyone, and understand clearly who Ron likes.

Another example, thanks to meg2089kul. Look at this text.

“What is it with her?” said James.
“Reading between the lines, I’d say she thinks you’re a bit conceited, mate,” said Sirius.
Now did Lily ever go up to James and say he was obnoxious? Using those exact words? No. But it is obvious that Sirius is telling the truth on that one. Why? Because Sirius and the readers "read between the lines."

phantomwitch

August 29th, 2004, 7:12 am

melcb98, ever heard of sarcasm? thats what sirius was using...

Melcb98

August 29th, 2004, 7:13 am

Why wouldn't it symbolize something. You're trying to avoid symbolism altogether if you look at it simply because your ship doesn't have much. The idea is that you look into it. Just because she doesn't shove it under our nose, doesn't mean it's not important!
Why look for something that JKR doesn't want us to see? She tells us what we need to know. I'm sorry this does not work out for you, but research shouldn't need to be done. Actually, I did do research, into what JKR said and JKR's books, and in her world, the Hippogriff symbolism doesn't seem to be important enough for her to tell us to look at.

It isn't particularly "reading between the lines" simply because Hermione had said "ask me later if you're going to be a jerk about it" and Harry said that she had gotten the point that ron had wanted to ask her and was being naive about it.
How do you know that Ron likes Hermione?

melcb98, ever heard of sarcasm? thats what sirius was using...

Yes, I have heard of sarcasm- your point?

wannabeweasley

August 29th, 2004, 7:18 am

is it blatant or is it hidden? you cant have it both ways, you guys...and you tell us we twist clues to support us, well it seems like you twist your arguments to fit clues....
Literally - it is hidden. There have been no declarations of love, snogging, or marriages (as far as I can tell) between any of the trio.

From my perspective - it is blatant. The reason I ship Heron is because it jumped out to me as I read the novels. It feels right. If I try to see H/Hr in the novels, it feels wrong. It is entirely based on my subjective interpretation of the text.

Therefore, Harmony can be obvious if that is the way you see it. Heron can be obvious as well. The term obvious is entirely subjective.

melcb98, ever heard of sarcasm? thats what sirius was using...
oh wait...do you think JKR was using sarcasm when she used that same phrase????

meg2089kul

August 29th, 2004, 7:19 am

Another example, thanks to meg2089kul. Look at this text.

“What is it with her?” said James.
“Reading between the lines, I’d say she thinks you’re a bit conceited, mate,” said Sirius.
Now did Lily ever go up to James and say he was obnoxious? Using those exact words? No. But it is obvious that Sirius is telling the truth on that one. Why? Because Sirius and the readers "read between the lines."

Ha, ha. It's supposed to be a joke. Look at it this way:

r/hr shipper to jkr --> what is it with her?! Why won't she just drop the h/hr ship?!
h/hr shipper to r/hr shipper --> reading between the lines, I'd say she thinks youre a bit conceited, mate. :rotfl:

Why look for something that JKR doesn't want us to see? She tells us what we need to know. I'm sorry this does not work out for you, but research shouldn't need to be done. Actually, I did do research, into what JKR said and JKR's books, and in her world, the Hippogriff symbolism doesn't seem to be important enough for her to tell us to look at.

Actually, we won't know what JKR wants us to see until the series is over. :p

How do you know that Ron likes Hermione?

:rotfl: That's funny!

Godrics_Heiress

August 29th, 2004, 7:21 am

I'm not quite convinced of this logic, actually. Not to insult JKR's intelligence, but I have the feeling that she thinks she's been quite clever about R/Hr in that (from my POV, anways) they will get together at some point in the book. In fact, the quote in itself is an answer to a direct question of Ron and Hermione--there is no Harry mentioned whatsoever. She says "I've given quite a lot of clues on the subject." that subject being the one brought up in the original question "Will Ron and Hermione ever get together??" Perhaps if the question had asked "Who will get together? Harry and Hermione or Ron and Hermione?" then the answer would be more ambiguous...but that wasn't the question. It dealt specifically with R/Hr. hermione 3: ¿will Harry and Hermione will be together?*sight*
JK Rowling replies -> lol Not saying... but you've had enough clues by now, surely?!

This quote was from JKR's March chat. There's no Ron mentioned whatsoever. The question dealt specifically with Harry and Hermione. There's no denying we, Harmonians, have enough clues to foreshadow Harry and Hermione getting together eventually.

Does Hermione love Ron or Harry?

The question is from JKR's website. In my strongest opinion, Hermione pays more attention to Harry, if not already mulling more than friendly feelings for Harry. Hermione left Ron's shining moment in Quidditch with Harry. She takes a nap during Ron's own party for making the Quidditch team; later on tells Harry how tired she was and then suddenly gleams with glee when she asks Harry to knit with her, all exhaustion forgotten in just a matter of seconds. She was beyond elation when she thought Harry was made prefect and doubted Ron for getting the badge. She tells him "Don't be stupid," "Don't be pathetic." She's more meticulous of Harry's love life than Harry and/or anyone else was, keeping tabs on Cho, even knowing what's going on with her life. She knows what going on with Ginny's love life either (possibly keeping an eye on her rivals). There are more instances of Hermione paying more attention to Harry than to Ron, of course, but I think this'll do this time.

So, to reiterate, it seems that Hermione is the key to who she falls in love with. Through her subtle emotions, we can read between the lines, read into whom she feels more bewitched for. And Ron does not stand a chance against Harry. Cheers.

Melcb98

August 29th, 2004, 7:25 am

That's funny!
Great! You know because you read between the lines.

Actually, we won't know what JKR wants us to see until the series is over.
Considering how she talked about why using the hippogriff and nothing about symbolism came up. And considering she left it out of all her books.....I think we can guess what she wants us to know about it.

And Ron does not stand a chance against Harry.
Don't be so sure about that. At least not where Hermione is concerned. If you are talking about dueling, ok, Harry would beat Ron. But, at this point, there is no competition for Hermione, and I doubt there will be.

wannabeweasley

August 29th, 2004, 7:29 am

ok ok...enough about the 'read between the lines'!

Harmony acts like this statement speaks for itself...I don't see it as being that clear. What exactly are 'the lines'? Are we talking her interview responses, the novels, just GoF, just OotP, hippogriff symbolism?????
Depending on which 'lines' you 'read', you will find different things 'behind' them.

(I'm only saying this because I think Heron was just called conceited - in jest)
Is Harmony conceited enough to think that the only possible 'lines' to 'read' are the ones that Harmony chooses. Is everyone else (Heron) just too dense to 'read behind the right lines.'

IMO - 'reading between the lines' may work for specific arguments, but it is certainly not the end all, catch all support for Harmony. It is just too broad...

meg2089kul

August 29th, 2004, 7:32 am

Great! You know because you read between the lines.

No, I know because it's freakin' obvious!

Considering how she talked about why using the hippogriff and nothing about symbolism came up. And considering she left it out of all her books.....I think we can guess what she wants us to know about it.

Hmm. What about when Kreacher injured Buckbeak, huh? No symbolism, you say? And Sirius was killed and Hermione nearly died?!

Harmony acts like this statement speaks for itself...I don't see it as being that clear. What exactly are 'the lines'? Are we talking her interview responses, the novels, just GoF, just OotP, hippogriff symbolism?????
Depending on which 'lines' you 'read', you will find different things 'behind' them.

(I'm only saying this because I think Heron was just called conceited - in jest)
Is Harmony conceited enough to think that the only possible 'lines' to 'read' are the ones that Harmony chooses. Is everyone else (Heron) just too dense to 'read behind the right lines.'

IMO - 'reading between the lines' may work for specific arguments, but it is certainly not the end all, catch all support for Harmony. It is just too broad...

Oh, I didn't actually mean conceited as an insult. I was just joking. I'm not saying r/hr shippers are concieted. Well...maybe some. Then again, the same can be said about some h/hr shippers.

wannabeweasley

August 29th, 2004, 7:38 am

Don't be so sure about that. At least not where Hermione is concerned. If you are talking about dueling, ok, Harry would beat Ron. But, at this point, there is no competition for Hermione, and I doubt there will be.
I can see it now:
Just two years after the revival of the Triwizard Tournament, we have the Biwizard Witchhunt Tournament! The grand prize being the love of the brightest witch at Hogwarts and 20,000 Galleons. Ronald Bilius Weasley and Harry James Potter, of course, were the only names to emerge from the Goblet (despite Victor Krum's failed attempts at hexing the Goblet). The competition, set to begin in late November, will bring division to the House of Gryffindor for the first time in centuries. Hogwarts Headmaster Albus Dumbledore sees this consequence as a necessary sacrafice to be made in order to solve the problem of Hermione Jane Granger's heart. He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named will of course be rooting for Mr. Potter as he hopes to be the first to try and kill another beloved thing is Harry's life. Madame Pomfrey, who opposed the competition in the first place, was quoted as saying she feared the loser would die of heartbreak even if he did not die as a part of the competition. Let us hope that this competition lives up to the hype it is receiving, I will remain on location to provide our readers with the most up-to-date news on the competition.
-Wannbeweasley (The Quibbler)

Hulk

August 29th, 2004, 7:40 am

And I already said this, she wouldn't put in something as "hippogriffs are symbols of love" in a book written by her when h/hr rode on buckbeak. That would be giving EVERYTHING away. This is where the reading between the lines comes in. That's our job.

No, the lines we are supposed to read between should be in the books, not some other mythology materials. And about giving away everything...maybe, maybe not. She did tell us that "Grim means Death', but she did it so skillful that few could predict Sirius' death with the information.

Why put in something that most readers can't understand? Even H/Hr really happens, casual readers will still be ignorant about the whole 'hippogriff = love' thing.

phantomwitch

August 29th, 2004, 7:41 am

i only said something about between the lines because i read this thread before she said it and somehow the argument went from blatantly obvious to hidden just because it isnt said straight out, and felt like it was a bit funny. thats it! really!

dumbleedore

August 29th, 2004, 7:52 am

*ventures in*

I'm going back to the Hippogriff symbology here. I'm a H/Hr shipper- however I'm staying neutral for this post...

One thing that we've learnt about JK is that she researches everything so througholy. She knew that the Hippogriff existed in the medival times- she would have had to have found that out through research would she not? So she's researched to find out that they existed in medival times, wouldn't she have stumbled across the symbolism surronding the Hippogriff during that research? I just completed a Google search on Hippogriffs and on the 2nd result returned it said the following:

A legendary animal, half horse and half griffin. Its father was a griffin and its mother was a filly. It is often found in ancient Greek art and appeared largely in medieval legends. It is also a symbol of love (Ariosto: Orlando furioso, iv, 18,19).

Taken from here (http://www.pantheon.org/articles/h/hippogriff.html).

*ventures out*

feeniks

August 29th, 2004, 8:01 am

phantomwitch

August 29th, 2004, 8:03 am

well i'll drift out now...happy shipping!

xray

August 29th, 2004, 8:16 am

One thing that we've learnt about JK is that she researches everything so througholy. [sic] She knew that the Hippogriff existed in the medival [sic] times- she would have had to have found that out through research would she not? So she's researched to find out that they existed in medival [sic] times, wouldn't she have stumbled across the symbolism surronding the Hippogriff during that research? There are major flaws in this theory. First and foremost, JKR doesn't do research in order to find material, she decides to use material then researches the specifics. I can provide you the exact quote if you want.

It doesn't take a whole lot of reading to know what a hippogriff is in the first place. Heck, I knew what a griffon was and I read very little (ok not proud of it but it's true). I'm sure hippogriff would be well known to a reader of Jo Rowlings caliber. She reads a lot.

Another extremely major flaw in the Hippogriff symbolism theory is that symbolism must apply to every instance of the symbol. How does it represent love when Hagrid is rounding it up? How does it represent love when Harry is riding it alone? How about when Malfoy gets attacked by it? When Ron and Hermione are practicing on it? How about when Sirius, Harry, and Hermione are all three riding it at once? How does it represent love when it's in the cave with Sirius, Ron, Harry, and Hermione? How does it represent love when it's in 12 GP? etc.

The thing about symbolism is that you cannot pick and choose what it applies to. The symbol must apply in every instance it appears in the novel, otherwise it's not symbolism. That's symbolism 101. Cripes, you'd think JKR knows that wouldn't you?

And one last comment. Symbolism is very difficult to incorporate into novels. Most often it's unintentional. Subconsciously, yes, albeit unintentional. Very rarely is symbolism found in any novel in such a large scale as this Hippogriff is found in the Harry Potter books.

xray

p.s. where do you think she got Gryffindor from? Griffon = lion + eagle. Lion is brave; eagle is majestic. JKR likes word play. Thinking about Griffon, gryffindor, hippogriff, it's easy to see how she decided to use it.

daz

August 29th, 2004, 8:23 am

wow i go to bed i come back and a new topic you people are so fast.i heard xraxys clip but it just says for GOF not the next book i agree there with people

xray

August 29th, 2004, 8:27 am

wow i go to bed i come back and a new topic you people are so fast.i heard xraxys clip but it just says for GOF not the next book i agree there with peopleI proved that it applied to the entire series (http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=1237906&postcount=1180). However, you're allowed to ignore the facts <grin> :p

xray

daz

August 29th, 2004, 8:32 am

lol ok i will

Toltec_7

August 29th, 2004, 8:40 am

From the previous thread:
Unless, of course, JKR is pulling off the biggest literary red herring of all time, with all that build-up, seemingly indicative of R/Hr, all those quotes hinting at R/Hr, allowing the moviemakers to run away with blatant R/Hr, etc, etc. If that's the case, she'd pretty have a **** good way of delivering it, because the way I see things- what with the current H/Hr ship position, I'd feel tricked and conned. And so would many, countless others.
AK, I'm confused, just how would you feel conned? Forgive me if I'm wrong, but up until a few months ago you were onboard Harmony, even after all those quotes you now use against us, then you jumped ship to Heron. So the simple fact that you did, at one time, believe in Harmonys' evidence, should be enough to show that you wouldn't be conned, or you would never had believed it in the first place; its also shows that you know we do have evidence and canon to back up our views. That comment you made, with your history, just dosn't make much sense to me.

Dark Emperor

August 29th, 2004, 8:55 am

wannabeweasley...that was excellent...Krum tried to hex the goblet...mwaha

A tale worthy of the Emperor's notice.

I never really bought into the hippogriff symbolism thing....I could see their point but...well.....I never actually took it seriously so if its taken out a an obsolete symbol (as though any of those exist...) I won't mind one bit.

*runs amok along the deck to find life preservers for all those who bought too much stock in BUCKBEAK of all things.....*

And now for some mozart.........

food for thought....anyone care to explain hermione's "ho-ho" to ron's jealous lover routine in the OOTP?

Polychrome

August 29th, 2004, 9:25 am

Anywho, Harry and Hermione rode a hippogriff, it could have been a pegasus, it could have been a unicorn, it could have been a regular horse - however, whatever creature employed, the 'romantic' imagery (not necessarily H/Hr romantic but romance in general) is there. Hero/Heroine off on a quest to rescue someone etc. Also, Buckbeak is yet anothering that Harry and Hermione have in common/connects them.

If you're looking for classic, fairy-tale, romantic imagery, I suggest you re-read Chamber of Secrets. The story almost feels like a twisted version of Sleeping Beauty.

And BTW, Sleeping Beauty sure ain't Hermione. ;) Heck, if I remember right, many innocent bystanders also ended up taking a nap in that story.

We've got the conquering hero slaying the "dragon" and an evil wizard to save the damsel in distress. They both ride to the surface on the tail feathers of an enchanted bird that symbolizes rebirth.

I don't know about you, but if you put PoA against CoS as far as romantic, fairytale imagery goes, CoS wins hands down. And even if this doesn't prove H/G, it does seem to be proof that you can't really take the Hippogriff as a symbol of love with that in mind.

The fact that CoS has the only true fairytale ending of the series makes me lean toward H/G. Maybe it's just me.

Edit: Um, Heiress? The Owl and the Pussycat does not work as proof of "Harmony". Both Ron and Harry have owls. ^^;

Mumps

August 29th, 2004, 10:02 am

Edit: Um, Heiress? The Owl and the Pussycat does not work as proof of "Harmony". Both Ron and Harry have owls. ^^;
Well Crookshanks is male. Pigwidgeon is male. So that would be a gay relationship. However, Hedwig is female. So Hedwig and Crookshanks, the Owl and the Pussycat.

Godrics_Heiress

August 29th, 2004, 10:19 am

Edit: Um, Heiress? The Owl and the Pussycat does not work as proof of "Harmony". Both Ron and Harry have owls. ^^; Er, to me it does. Although keep in mind that my site is called Harmony Fun Facts for a reason. And not everyone in my ship buys the facts I've included on my small list. It's either take it or leave it, so to speak. Harmony has far better symbolisms and hints alluding to H/Hr; some of the ones I've listed so far are the little things amongst the countless bigger things that make Harry and Hermione the most likely to happen.

With regards to the poem, I was trying to imply the strong coincidence of it to JKR's choices of the trio's familiars. Sure, both Ron and Harry have owls. But in the poem, it's interesting that JKR uses the name Pigwidgeon, which is almost akin to the poem's Piggy-wig.

If one reads Fun Fact #3 carefully, one should get the gist of what yours truly is overtly suggesting. Cheers.

Well Crookshanks is male. Pigwidgeon is male. So that would be a gay relationship. However, Hedwig is female. So Hedwig and Crookshanks, the Owl and the Pussycat. Thanks, Mumps.

ETA:

:birthday: rjade829!

Polychrome

August 29th, 2004, 10:50 am

Godrics_Heiress

August 29th, 2004, 11:18 am

Nice try, but if I remember right, from that story, the owl was male and the cat was female. Unless you're trying to imply a few gender changes here and there, then maybe we shouldn't be nitpicking that. LOL *sigh* Don't know if you're directing the above post to me, but anyway...

Hedwig (an OWL) to Harry
Crookshanks (a half-kneazle, half PUSSYCAT) to Hermione
and PIGwidgeon (an owl with the PIG a.k.a) to Ron

I certainly didn't mention the gender of the characters from the poem. The central point of the fun fact is---while associating the poem's characters with the trio's familiars---Harry and Hermione's pets married in the poem, with Ron's pet playing the role of the bestman. The gender of the poem's characters are obviously moot if we correlate them with the trio's familiars.

EricaM

August 29th, 2004, 12:29 pm

have you guys heard the interview in xray's signature? click here if not (http://www.npr.org/ramfiles/exrad/991020.jkrowling.ram) (forward to 26:00)... she says harry and hermione have a platonic friendship, then says something like i wont say anything about anyone else nudge nudge wink wink. now dont get me wrong, im a h/h shipper

what do you guys think of this? opinions?

JKR was talking about the dating in GoF. The question asks specifically about Harry and Hermione and whether they have a date each with other. JKR indicates that they do not have a date (with each other) but that she wouldn't speak for anyone else (Parvati, Viktor). As Ron isn't mentioned at all in the question is presumptive to assume that the nudge, nudge, wink, wink, must necessarily lead to R/Hr (indeed, 2 books post this interview and still they are not any closer).

Perhaps these are clues that counter R/Hr:

Harry did not know what would happen if Ron touched the tentacles of thought now flying behind the brain, but he was sure it would not be anything good. He darted forwards but Ron had already caught the brain in his outstretched hands.

The moment they made contact with his skin, the tentacles began wrapping themselves around Ron's arms like ropes.

'Harry, look what's happen- No - no - I don't like it - no, stop - stop-'

But the thin ribbons were spinning around Ron's chest now; he tugged and tore at them as the brain was pulled tight against him like an octopus's body.

'Diffindo!' yelled Harry, trying to sever the feelers wrapping themselves tightly around Ron before his eyes, but they would not break. Ron fell over, still thrashing against his bonds.

'Harry, it'll suffocate him!' screamed Ginny, immobilised by her broken ankle on the floor - then a jet of red light flew from one of the Death Eater's wands and hit her squarely in the face. She keeled over sideways and lay there unconscious

Hermione (the brain) is not suited for Ron. Her personality/character would suffocate him

'I wonder if Hermione's seen this yet?' Harry said, looking round at the door to the girls' dormitories.

'Let's go and tell her', said Ron. He bounded forwards, pulled open the door and set off up the spiral staircase.

He was on the sixth stair when there was a loud, wailing, klaxon-like sound and the steps melted together to make a long, smooth stone slide like a helter-skelter. There was a brief moment when Ron tried to keep running, arms working madly like windmills, then he toppled over backwards and shot down the newly created slide, coming to rest on his back at Harry's feet.

Ron makes a move in the 6th book of the series (sixth stair) however he will not be successful (toppled over backwards) and will find out that Hermione actully likes/prefers Harry to him (coming to rest at Harry's feet).

LeXoR

August 29th, 2004, 12:44 pm

JKR was talking about the dating in GoF. The question asks specifically about Harry and Hermione and whether they have a date each with other. JKR indicates that they do not have a date (with each other) but that she wouldn't speak for anyone else (Parvati, Viktor). As Ron isn't mentioned at all in the question is presumptive to assume that the nudge, nudge, wink, wink, must necessarily lead to R/Hr (indeed, 2 books post this interview and still they are not any closer).

I think she was talking about Harry/Cho and Hermione/Krum.

Picko

August 29th, 2004, 1:15 pm

dumbleedore

August 29th, 2004, 1:21 pm

I really can't go past the hippogriff symbolism. If anything proves a 'ship it's the hippogriff symbolism. It proves that H/H will happen. Now we all just have to deal with it ;)

In summary, you cannot defeat the hippogriff symbolism, it's not even worth trying.
Well, you just need to look at the scene in OotP where Hermione gets Harry to come downstairs with eeveryone else- Harry is in with Buckbeak. Coincidence?

Picko

August 29th, 2004, 1:22 pm

Well, you just need to look at the scene in OotP where Hermione gets Harry to come downstairs with eeveryone else- Harry is in with Buckbeak. Coincidence?

I doubt it. JK doesn't believe in coincidences. That scene is undeniable proof that H/H will happen. I think we'll see heaps of hippogriff references in the next book as H/H get closer to happening.

daz

August 29th, 2004, 1:23 pm

can somebody plez tell me about this hippogriff symbolism

dumbleedore

August 29th, 2004, 1:25 pm

I doubt it. JK doesn't believe in coincidences. That scene is undeniable proof that H/H will happen. I think we'll see heaps of hippogriff references in the next book as H/H get closer to happening.
Then there's also the scene in GoF when they go to meet Sirius in the cave- Hermione instantly rushes to Buckbeak- like she instantly rushes to Harry.

Picko

August 29th, 2004, 1:29 pm

Then there's also the scene in GoF when they go to meet Sirius in the cave- Hermione instantly rushes to Buckbeak- like she instantly rushes to Harry.

And Harry shows that he likes Buckbeak. Which is eerily how he acts around Hermione. In GoF, Buckbeak almost acts as a joining point for the two, where we see they are made for each other and that their union is inevitable.

EricaM

August 29th, 2004, 1:31 pm

If you're looking for classic, fairy-tale, romantic imagery, I suggest you re-read Chamber of Secrets. The story almost feels like a twisted version of Sleeping Beauty.

I dunno, I'm thinking that 'romantic imagery' is not limited to the 'fairy-tale' genre.

And BTW, Sleeping Beauty sure ain't Hermione. ;) Heck, if I remember right, many innocent bystanders also ended up taking a nap in that story. We've got the conquering hero slaying the "dragon" and an evil wizard to save the damsel in distress. They both ride to the surface on the tail feathers of an enchanted bird that symbolizes rebirth.

But Prince Charming, two years after the fact, has completely forgotten about the damsels ordeal - though he reminisces about experiences of/with the 'non damsel'. You'll also remeber that brother Ron and demented Lockhart where riding on the tail-feathers too. In fact, I don't believe that Harry's other hand (the one that wasn't holding on to Fawkes) was holding Ginny's hand.

I don't know about you, but if you put PoA against CoS as far as romantic, fairytale imagery goes, CoS wins hands down. And even if this doesn't prove H/G, it does seem to be proof that you can't really take the Hippogriff as a symbol of love with that in mind.

What about the hero saving the damsel from the giant? Isn't that "fairy-tale" romantic imagery (or does it count only when it's Ginny)?

The fact that CoS has the only true fairytale ending of the series makes me lean toward H/G. Maybe it's just me.

I think the fact that Harry's increasingly dependent on Hermione (consciously or not) makes me lean towards H/Hr.

Erica

dumbleedore

August 29th, 2004, 1:32 pm

And Harry shows that he likes Buckbeak. Which is eerily how he acts around Hermione. In GoF, Buckbeak almost acts as a joining point for the two, where we see they are made for each other and that their union is inevitable.
So, I'm recapping here...

PoA: H/Hr rescue Buckbeak and together fly Sirius to freedom
GoF: When they meet up with Sirius, Hermione rushes instantly to Buckbeak.
OotP: Harry is in the room with Buckbeak and only Hermione can coax him out.

Gah- I'm positive there was another one I was going to put it, but I think i'm imagining things...

Picko

August 29th, 2004, 1:35 pm

So, I'm recapping here...

PoA: H/Hr rescue Buckbeak and together fly Sirius to freedom
GoF: When they meet up with Sirius, Hermione rushes instantly to Buckbeak.
OotP: Harry is in the room with Buckbeak and only Hermione can coax him out.

Gah- I'm positive there was another one I was going to put it, but I think i'm imagining things...

Really there is no more evidence needed to prove the ship is going to happen. Of course there is but really does more need to be said?

dumbleedore

August 29th, 2004, 1:42 pm

Really there is no more evidence needed to prove the ship is going to happen. Of course there is but really does more need to be said?
More always needs to be said :) You should know I never shut up :lol:

But there is one thing I just thought of which puts our theories aside slightly- Hermione worked on Buckbeak's trial with Ron- and Ron offered to help.

Picko

August 29th, 2004, 1:45 pm

More always needs to be said :) You should know I never shut up :lol:

But there is one thing I just thought of which puts our theories aside slightly- Hermione worked on Buckbeak's trial with Ron- and Ron offered to help.

Yes but Harry rode on the hippogriff with Hermione which is surely greater symbolism and Hermione worked hard on Buckbeak's trial all by herself for a while without Ron's help. This reminds me of the time she helped Harry out in GoF without Ron's help as well.

zigwiwi

August 29th, 2004, 1:48 pm

More always needs to be said :) You should know I never shut up :lol:

But there is one thing I just thought of which puts our theories aside slightly- Hermione worked on Buckbeak's trial with Ron- and Ron offered to help. Ron tried to help Hermione, but their attempt failed. Then Harry and Hermione used the time turner and succeded in saving him for good.

dumbleedore

August 29th, 2004, 1:49 pm

GryffindorGr

August 29th, 2004, 1:51 pm

Yes but Harry rode on the hippogriff with Hermione which is surely greater symbolism and Hermione worked hard on Buckbeak's trial all by herself for a while without Ron's help. This reminds me of the time she helped Harry out in GoF without Ron's help as well.
Yes, that's right. :agree:

and:

SB: Why is the Hippograff a half eagle and a half horse?

JKR: Why is a Hippogriff a half eagle and half horse? Um, I didn’t invent a hippogriff. See, um, Medieval European people genuinely believed it existed. We won’t go into the reasons that might be. But, um, it’s a mythical creature, it’s an unusual mythical creature, it’s not as famous as a unicorn or a griffin. So, um, I don’t really know. You have to ask the medieval monks who did those beautiful illuminations and they drew them on there. Um, I’m very fond of my hippogriff, I like Buckbeak. If you read book 3, you’ll know who that is, if you haven’t, then that will be gobbledygook to you, so sorry.
Is it just me, or does she seem not as intelligible about the origin of hippogriffs as some H/Hr shippers appear to be because they hold it to a candle of symbolism?

And therefore, by Furioso, who was a medieval monk, created the hippogriff to represent "Impossible love"....so what was impossible about H/hr??
That Harry needs to be UNclueless, and the spark somewhere needs to come back so that the romance can blossom?? ;)
There are so many symbols of Love and the hippogriff is specifically for impossible love because of the mortal enemies: horse and griffin getting together.
I just wish someone would tell me what's impossible about h/hr?

Picko

August 29th, 2004, 1:52 pm

That's true- Ron's offer to help did come as slightly pity after he realised how much stress she was under, trying to do it along with her schoolwork.

Edit: Good point zigiwigi- it was H/Hr's attempt at rescue that worked.

Ron was just trying to make himself look better, it was selfish on his part. Therefore I'm inclined to say that it wouldn't have impressed Hermione who's deeper than that.

dumbleedore

August 29th, 2004, 1:54 pm

Ron was just trying to make himself look better, it was selfish on his part. Therefore I'm inclined to say that it wouldn't have impressed Hermione who's deeper than that.
She just seemed to be grateful for his help and if memory serves me correct, Ron pretty much took the responsibility off her, so they weren't sharing it.

v@sh

August 29th, 2004, 1:58 pm

AK, I'm confused, just how would you feel conned? Forgive me if I'm wrong, but up until a few months ago you were onboard Harmony, even after all those quotes you now use against us, then you jumped ship to Heron. So the simple fact that you did, at one time, believe in Harmonys' evidence, should be enough to show that you wouldn't be conned, or you would never had believed it in the first place; its also shows that you know we do have evidence and canon to back up our views. That comment you made, with your history, just dosn't make much sense to me.

I wouldn't say AK was aboard the Harmony, he was on the HMS Firebolt. However, I am as confused, bemused and puzzled about AK's return to the HMS Heron as you are after practically defending that there was a very high possiblity - moreso than Ron - that Hermione had began to like Harry. So to go back to HMS Heron and say that AK would feel conned is just not right IMO. All the clues are there for either R/Hr or H/Hr - whichever turns out in the end if it turns out in the end - so no-one should be feeling conned. Its a matter of interpretation and its JKR's interpretation that matters not ours, and that applies to all the quotes as well as much as we all like to think we're right.

dumbleedore

August 29th, 2004, 2:01 pm

I wouldn't say AK was aboard the Harmony, he was on the HMS Firebolt. However, I am as confused, bemused and puzzled about AK's return to the HMS Heron as you are after practically defending that there was a very high possiblity - moreso than Ron - that Hermione had began to like Harry. So to go back to HMS Heron and say that AK would feel conned is just not right IMO. All the clues are there for either R/Hr or H/Hr - whichever turns out in the end if it turns out in the end - so no-one should be feeling conned. Its a matter of interpretation and its JKR's interpretation that matters not ours, and that applies to all the quotes as well as much as we all like to think we're right.
JK is deliberatly dropping hints in interviews to try and confuse us even further- and it's the same with the 'read between the lines' quote.

BTW, what is the HMS Firebolt- it's not listed in the ships on the first page.

Picko

August 29th, 2004, 2:02 pm

She just seemed to be grateful for his help and if memory serves me correct, Ron pretty much took the responsibility off her, so they weren't sharing it.

Like usual Ron just wanted to take all the credit ... he's selfish like that and I can't help wondering why Hermione would like someone like that. I can understand Harry because like Buckbeak he's unassuming, polite and proud. Hermione enjoys Buckbeaks company and the logical progression is that she likes Harry.

dumbleedore

August 29th, 2004, 2:04 pm

Like usual Ron just wanted to take all the credit ... he's selfish like that and I can't help wondering why Hermione would like someone like that. I can understand Harry because like Buckbeak he's unassuming, polite and proud. Hermione enjoys Buckbeaks company and the logical progression is that she likes Harry.
You've hit the nail on the head and managed to say exactly what I was thinking :D

Picko

August 29th, 2004, 2:09 pm

JK is deliberatly dropping hints in interviews to try and confuse us even further- and it's the same with the 'read between the lines' quote.

BTW, what is the HMS Firebolt- it's not listed in the ships on the first page.

It makes sense that she'd try to confuse us. Relationships are obviously the most important aspect of the HP series - which explains why it's debated so much - and therefore she would be reluctant to make things to obvious. Therefore all the little hints towards R/H are false and she's really implying H/H. Reverse psychology anyone?

daz

August 29th, 2004, 2:11 pm

Dominique

August 29th, 2004, 2:11 pm

You'll also remeber that brother Ron and demented Lockhart where riding on the tail-feathers too. In fact, I don't believe that Harry's other hand (the one that wasn't holding on to Fawkes) was holding Ginny's hand.

I know Harry didn't hold Ginny's hand:

"Fawkes," said Harry, "isn't an ordinary bird." He turned quickly to the others. "We've got to hold on to each other. Ginny, grab Ron's hand. Professor Lockhart --"

"He means you," said Ron sharply to Lockhart.

"You hold Ginny's other hand --"

Harry tucked the sword and the Sorting Hat into his belt, Ron took hold of the back of Harry's robes, and Harry reached out and took hold of Fawkes's strangely hot tail feathers.

owever, I am as confused, bemused and puzzled about AK's return to the HMS Heron as you are after practically defending that there was a very high possiblity - moreso than Ron - that Hermione had began to like Harry.

You're not the only one. Amusing how "conned" now gets dragged out after having spent many, many moons on the HMS Firebolt, the ship that believes Hermione likes Harry.

Picko

August 29th, 2004, 2:14 pm

picko i disagree with Relationships are obviously the most important aspect of the HP series this

the books books are about harry and voldie,there is very little roamnce in the books if you go though them

But Lily's love for Harry and her sacrifice saved him. Voldemort cannot understand love and has never experienced it and many suspect that the key to defeating Voldemort is Harry's capacity to love.

I'd say love and in connection with that relationships are very important in the HP series.

ComicBookWorm

August 29th, 2004, 2:15 pm

It makes sense that she'd try to confuse us. Relationships are obviously the most important aspect of the HP series - which explains why it's debated so much - and therefore she would be reluctant to make things to obvious. Therefore all the little hints towards R/H are false and she's really implying H/H. Reverse psychology anyone?
So these are hints, but they're not hints. :shrug:

Picko

August 29th, 2004, 2:17 pm

So these are hints, but they're not hints. :shrug:

She is clearly trying to trick us. But don't worry I'm on to her and she won't get away with it :p

GryffindorGr

August 29th, 2004, 2:18 pm

But Lily's love for Harry and her sacrifice saved him. Voldemort cannot understand love and has never experienced it and many suspect that the key to defeating Voldemort is Harry's capacity to love.

I'd say love and in connection with that relationships are very important in the HP series.

Yes, love is important in the series but Lily/James romance wasn't exemplified in the series. It was love for their son, Harry. "Romance" relationship hasn't been greatly emphasized yet in the series. What?--Cho/Harry?
The love between good friendship: Harry/Hermione/Ron and the rest of his side characters friends are strong. Those are the kind of relationships that have been happening in the series.

she is clearly trying to trick us. But don't worry I'm on to her and she won't get away with it :p

She is "tricking" us but she won't con us. We're all being tricked then.

Drusilla

August 29th, 2004, 2:20 pm

GryffindorGr:I just wish someone would tell me what's impossible about h/hr?
I suppose it could be Jo's little bit of wish-fulfilment for all the Harmony fans if she isn't going to make that ship sail-either that, or a way to tell us it's going to happen (foreshadowing, if you will) if it does. I mean, at the end of the story, no matter who Harry, Ron and Hermione end up with (if they do end up with anyone at all) there will always be shippers saying it could have been the person they favoured, because of so-and-so symbolism/evidence. I understand the symbolism of the Hippogriff ride now, but I'd like to ask: why are some Harmonians so fond of referring to their evidence in support of the ship as the Phoenix[B] files, when the only girl Harry's taken a phoenix ride of sorts with is Ginny? Where does a phoenix enter into the Harry/Hermione connection?

Picko

August 29th, 2004, 2:23 pm

Yes, love is important in the series but Lily/James romance wasn't exemplified in the series. It was love for their son, Harry. "Romance" relationship hasn't been greatly emphasized yet in the series. What?--Cho/Harry?
The love between good friendship: Harry/Hermione/Ron and the rest of his side characters friends are strong. Those are the kind of relationships that have been happening in the series.

She is "tricking" us but she won't con us. We're all being tricked then.

Yes but without Lily/James romance Harry wouldn't exist and therefore no series would be born. Unless Harry was a mistake but then that wouldn't be a great lesson for todays youth ;) Relationships are at the very core of the novels - mostly platonic ones admittedly - but they are of immense importance. If they weren't surely we wouldn't be debating the details so fiercely right?

Epiphany

August 29th, 2004, 2:26 pm

I suppose it could be Jo's little bit of wish-fulfilment for all the Harmony fans if she isn't going to make that ship sail-either that, or a way to tell us it's going to happen (foreshadowing, if you will) if it does. I mean, at the end of the story, no matter who Harry, Ron and Hermione end up with (if they do end up with anyone at all) there will always be shippers saying it could have been the person they favoured, because of so-and-so symbolism/evidence. I understand the symbolism of the Hippogriff ride now, but I'd like to ask: why are some Harmonians so fond of referring to their evidence in support of the ship as the [/B]Phoenix[B] files, when the only girl Harry's taken a phoenix ride of sorts with is Ginny? Where does a phoenix enter into the Harry/Hermione connection?

That would be, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that the Phoenix files are named so because they were written after Order of the Phoenix, thus using new evidences from that specific book.

And on the Hippogriff symbolising impossible love - the fact that the Hippogriff exist is a contradiction in itself; the impossible love becomes possible.

Dominique

August 29th, 2004, 2:31 pm

why are some Harmonians so fond of referring to their evidence in support of the ship as the Phoenix files, when the only girl Harry's taken a phoenix ride of sorts with is Ginny? Where does a phoenix enter into the Harry/Hermione connection?

They're named the "Phoenix Files" after the fifth book, not Fawkes :).

Edit: yeah, what Epiphany already said :D.

GryffindorGr

August 29th, 2004, 2:31 pm

Yes but without Lily/James romance Harry wouldn't exist and therefore no series would be born. Unless Harry was a mistake but then that wouldn't be a great lesson for todays youth ;) Relationships are at the very core of the novels - mostly platonic ones admittedly - but they are of immense importance. If they weren't surely we wouldn't be debating the details so fiercely right?
LOL :D
Oh Picko...I can see where you're possibly going with this. Since Lily/James romance relationship wasn't in full detail. We only get the fact that they created "Harry"...so therefore you think that H/hr relationship is paralleling Lily/James to show the full extent of how that romance came about?? lol....Okay, just kidding.

Yeah, the HP series have a lot of "Platonic" relationships so far. :p
If reverse psychology is what JKR is using, then the platonic quote for H/hr would definitely fit for the future romance: H/hr. At least that's what children think when they read the series. Even adults who don't indulge in the library to look up Plato's definition, which would in conclusion still define unphysical relationship.
by Drusilla
I suppose it could be Jo's little bit of wish-fulfilment for all the Harmony fans if she isn't going to make that ship sail-either that, or a way to tell us it's going to happen (foreshadowing, if you will) if it does. I mean, at the end of the story, no matter who Harry, Ron and Hermione end up with (if they do end up with anyone at all) there will always be shippers saying it could have been the person they favoured, because of so-and-so symbolism/evidence. I understand the symbolism of the Hippogriff ride now, but I'd like to ask: why are some Harmonians so fond of referring to their evidence in support of the ship as the Phoenix[B] files, when the only girl Harry's taken a phoenix ride of sorts with is Ginny? Where does a phoenix enter into the Harry/Hermione connection?
Wow. How silly of me not to have seen that. But then again, Lockhart and Ron were around :p So it's like having Sirius be around when H/hr were riding on Hippogriff/Buckbeak.
In the end, JKR knows exactly what she's doing, whether or not we think our reading of the text means that h/hr or r/hr or Hermione/someone else will happen.
I think that JKR installs some symbolism as a means of some red herring(?) Maybe. And for fun. She knows the public is pretty clever.

I've noticed some of you (h/hr's) like reverse psychology or the opposite: like the suggestion of the impossible love is actually possible love. lol.

mugpurehalf

August 29th, 2004, 2:53 pm

* Another fun fact about OOTP, Hermione's Patronus is an Otter. Many R/Hr supporters have pointed out that the otter belongs to the weasel family (Weasel = Weasley. JK Rowling even mentions loving the weasel family on her official website!

And where does Ron live? Ottery St Catchpole...

In the past people laught at me for saying it but if u want to play with the otter "clue" I'll post it again, for the sake of it:p

ron blessing: :rotfl:

‘You’re well out of it, mate,’ said Ron forcefully. ‘I mean, she’s quite good-looking and all that, but you want someone a bit more cheerful.’

otter is a cheerful animel you know... :eyebrows:
you know we should expect hermione to lighten up(or maybe she's not so innocent :rotfl: ) later on because patronus form being chosen by one or more characteristic of the caster.

cya

Charmed Cheese

August 29th, 2004, 3:00 pm

Ron tried to help Hermione, but their attempt failed. Then Harry and Hermione used the time turner and succeded in saving him for good.

And then Harry and Hermione failed in OotP. Looks like the dynamics are changing. :evil:

Drusilla

August 29th, 2004, 3:03 pm

. But then again, Lockhart and Ron were around :p So it's like having Sirius be around when H/hr were riding on Hippogriff/Buckbeak.
Yeah, thanks for that, and also thnks to whoever explained the Phoenix Files. And Hermione didn't like the Buckbeak-ride at all, Ginny did her phoenix-tail-grab in a very depressed state, so where does that leave our evidence?Love rising from the ashes where it was thought to have been dead and gone? Or love that was thought to be impossible? Which will it be?

zigwiwi

August 29th, 2004, 3:09 pm

I've noticed some of you (h/hr's) like reverse psychology or the opposite: like the suggestion of the impossible love is actually possible love. lol.But it's not a symbol of "impossible love", it's not what is described in any definition I've found.

It's the offspring of a griffin and a horse, which was supposed to be impossible because griffins and horses are mortal ennemies (that's the first meaning of the symbol : impossibility). Then their offspring becomes a symbol of love because it takes a lot of love to overcome their difference.

So, to me, the full meaning is of love strong enough to overcome something that is considered impossible. Like, in HP, saving Sirius, and maybe later to defeat Voldemort.

And then Harry and Hermione failed in OotP. Looks like the dynamics are changing. :evil: They were six to ride theastrals (symbol of death) to go to save Sirius. It's not only Harry and Hermione who failed but all six of them.

In PoA, they were only Harry and Hermione riding a hippogriff and succeded saving Sirius, something that seemed impossible to do then.

Epiphany

August 29th, 2004, 3:09 pm

And then Harry and Hermione failed in OotP. Looks like the dynamics are changing. :evil:

Did they have to save Buckbeak in OotP?

*scratches head*

Or maybe you're talking about Sirius? Then you have to think that they weren't alone. It wasn't something like in PoA, when they team up together to save Buckbeack and Sirius.

You can't forget that Ron, Neville, Luna and Ginny were there.

In that sense, you could also say that Ginny and Harry failed.

EricaM

August 29th, 2004, 3:14 pm

I've noticed some of you (h/hr's) like reverse psychology or the opposite: like the suggestion of the impossible love is actually possible love. lol.

You mean like JKR's indicating that Ginny 'doesn't fancy Harry anymore' (via Hermione) as a building block for future H/G?

As for the hippogriff theory:

It was Vergil who first coined the phrase 'When mares lay down with griffins' or something like that when he was talking about an impossible thing (waring factions coming together?). It was akin to people nowadays saying 'Yeah, when pigs fly'. The interesting thing is that in medieval times Oriostos' "Orlando Furioso' gave that expression form. He created a hippogriff (just like JKR alludes to flying pigs in OotP with the winged boars that adorn the main hogwarts gates and the spawn of the catherine wheel firework with the dragon firework) in his story, hence, within the confines/reality of the story, it is not an 'impossiblity'.

The expression implies impossibility, the existance implies the impossibility happening.

Charmed Cheese

August 29th, 2004, 3:17 pm

Yeah, thanks for that, and also thnks to whoever explained the Phoenix Files. And Hermione didn't like the Buckbeak-ride at all, Ginny did her phoenix-tail-grab in a very depressed state, so where does that leave our evidence?Love rising from the ashes where it was thought to have been dead and gone? Or love that was thought to be impossible? Which will it be?

I'm going to go with the former. ;)

CoS was focused on the Harry/Ginny/Riddle dynamic. Despite Ron and Lockhart coming in at the end again, the focus was on H/G/R at the climax of the book. While we don't have the remaining books, there was an underlying "romance" theme in the sub-plots that JKR couldn't fully explore because they are only 12. A H/G bond isn't fully emphasised in CoS because it's too early and they are too young, but Rowling is setting up the groundwork of the H/G relationship beyond the characters themselves. Through symbols and images JKR is pointing towards their fates, but the characters cannot be aware of this yet. There's nothing romantic in a relationship when your twelve. :p Rowling can't have Ginny and Harry become close because how are we to believe he didn't notice her untill 6 or 7? Through CoS the author is able to hint at what's coming, yet still keep her 12 year old kids realistic with no sapppy or cheesy notion of close bond that's always been there.

In PoA, Sirius and Harry's relationship with him was the focus . Hermione and Harry's bond was a sideline/subplot. Harry's growing and "impossible" relationship with his godfather is the most important aspect of PoA and OotP as it becomes symbolic of Harry's want for his parents and past life. Harry's dealings with his parents death and being an orphan or more important than his love life in those books.

sone

August 29th, 2004, 3:18 pm

They were six to ride theastrals (symbol of death) to go to save Sirius. It's not only Harry and Hermione who failed but all six of them.

In PoA, they were only Harry and Hermione riding a hippogriff and succeded saving Sirius, something that seemed impossible to do then. You know in retrospect, if you think about it, that is interesting. They rode thestrals (symbols of death) to save Sirius and he died. If you think about that, you can ask now "what did you think was going to happen?"

Charmed Cheese

August 29th, 2004, 3:22 pm

Did they have to save Buckbeak in OotP?

*scratches head*

Or maybe you're talking about Sirius? Then you have to think that they weren't alone. It wasn't something like in PoA, when they team up together to save Buckbeack and Sirius.

You can't forget that Ron, Neville, Luna and Ginny were there.

In that sense, you could also say that Ginny and Harry failed.

Sorry, I was talking about Sirius.

And Harry and Ginny didn't fail, because they were seperated when the group split apart. Their teamwork never came into action.

Rowling split Ron and Hermione apart and Harry and Ginny apart, and the whole thing came crashing down, and the Order had to step in. Coincidence? I think not! ;) :p

Da_Chinkster

August 29th, 2004, 3:29 pm

Rowling split Ron and Hermione apart and Harry and Ginny apart, and the whole thing came crashing down, and the Order had to step in. Coincidence? I think not!
So you're telling me that if they hadnt split the couples up then they (kids) would be able to take on all those death eaters without the order having to step in?!?!?!

zigwiwi

August 29th, 2004, 3:31 pm

Sorry, I was talking about Sirius.

And Harry and Ginny didn't fail, because they were seperated when the group split apart. Their teamwork never came into action.

Rowling split Ron and Hermione apart and Harry and Ginny apart, and the whole thing came crashing down, and the Order had to step in. Coincidence? I think not! ;) :p But Sirius didn't die while they were split appart and both Harry and Hermione together, did he ? I remind you that Harry was not with Hermione when Sirius got killed.

I'm going to go with the former. ;)

CoS was focused on the Harry/Ginny/Riddle dynamic. Despite Ron and Lockhart coming in at the end again, the focus was on H/G/R at the climax of the book. While we don't have the remaining books, there was an underlying "romance" theme in the sub-plots that JKR couldn't fully explore because they are only 12. A H/G bond isn't fully emphasised in CoS because it's too early and they are too young, but Rowling is setting up the groundwork of the H/G relationship beyond the characters themselves. Through symbols and images JKR is pointing towards their fates, but the characters cannot be aware of this yet. There's nothing romantic in a relationship when your twelve. :p Rowling can't have Ginny and Harry become close because how are we to believe he didn't notice her untill 6 or 7? Through CoS the author is able to hint at what's coming, yet still keep her 12 year old kids realistic with no sapppy or cheesy notion of close bond that's always been there. There wasn't any dynamic between Harry and Ginny in CoS however.

And "with no sapppy or cheesy notion of close bond that's always been there", that's not what H/Hr is, it about the notion of a bond that is growing, and not a bond that's always been there. How do you want H/G to happen if they do not develop a bond !?

Charmed Cheese

August 29th, 2004, 3:43 pm

But Sirius didn't die while they were split appart and both Harry and Hermione together, did he ? I remind you that Harry was not with Hermione when Sirius got killed.

There wasn't any dynamic between Harry and Ginny in CoS however.

And "with no sapppy or cheesy notion of close bond that's always been there", that's not what H/Hr is, it about the notion of a bond that is growing, and not a bond that's always been there. How do you want H/G to happen if they do not develop a bond !?

Of course they'll develop a bond; they have two years to do it. Most people develop a bond ready for marriage within that time span.

There was a dynamic between Harry and Ginny in CoS.

IceKat55

August 29th, 2004, 3:46 pm

And "with no sapppy or cheesy notion of close bond that's always been there", that's not what H/Hr is, it about the notion of a bond that is growing, and not a bond that's always been there. How do you want H/G to happen if they do not develop a bond !?
Harry and Hermione do have a bond, though. They've grown to be incredibly close friends, and that's not a bad thing. Harry has known her for five years, and (as I've said before) he knows her inside & out. There's no real mystery left for him about Hermione. He knows she's the brightest witch around, he knows she's resourceful and clever and undying in her loyalty to him. Nothing left there for Harry to figure out, and if he hasn't 'fallen for her' by now, then what could she do to make that happen? To make him sit up & take notice of her in a whole new light and say "wow, Hermione's really incredible, I think I'm falling in love with her!!"? He already knows how incredible she is. Physically, he's seen her at her best (the Yule Ball), and that wasn't enough to spark any romantic feelings in him for her.

He doesn't know Ginny all that well yet. She's still a mystery to be solved. And in so doing, Harry and Ginny have the potential to form a romantic bond, as they get to know each other and learn more about each other. :)

Charmed Cheese

August 29th, 2004, 3:53 pm

Epiphany

August 29th, 2004, 3:58 pm

Harry and Hermione do have a bond, though. They've grown to be incredibly close friends, and that's not a bad thing. Harry has known her for five years, and (as I've said before) he knows her inside & out. There's no real mystery left for him about Hermione. He knows she's the brightest witch around, he knows she's resourceful and clever and undying in her loyalty to him. Nothing left there for Harry to figure out, and if he hasn't 'fallen for her' by now, then what could she do to make that happen? To make him sit up & take notice of her in a whole new light and say "wow, Hermione's really incredible, I think I'm falling in love with her!!"? He already knows how incredible she is. Physically, he's seen her at her best (the Yule Ball), and that wasn't enough to spark any romantic feelings in him for her.

He doesn't know Ginny all that well yet. She's still a mystery to be solved. And in so doing, Harry and Ginny have the potential to form a romantic bond, as they get to know each other and learn more about each other. :)

Harry doesn't know everything about Hermione. She still surprises him. But the fact is, what Harry knows about Hermione, he doesn't hate it. He's perfectly fine with who Hermione is. She is the way she is, and he wouldn't change her.

Hermione is his best friends, the one who's been by his side since his beginning in the Wizarding World. She's never failed him. She the one constant thing in his life. He could very well have developped certain "feelings" for her without having acknowledged them for what they were.

He can very well be brushing off these Q's by saying, hey, that's just because she's a close friend, no?

Because Harry's never been through anything like this before in his life. He can't compare it to anything else.

The bond they have is growing. It is in constant evolution. It wasn't that way when they first met. Nor was it that way in CoS, or PoA, or GoF. It has grown for five years. It is still growing. Nothing saying some 'feelings' won't be discovered.

As for Ginny being a mystery to Harry. How is this a good thing? What if they get to know each other and what they see in the other repulses them?

What if they discover something they hate?

Isn't that risky?

*Note that I'm aware that they could love what they would see. There's a fifty/fifty percent chance that it'll go one way or the other.

sone

August 29th, 2004, 4:04 pm

He doesn't know Ginny all that well yet Well that is because Harry is not interested in knowing Ginny. This is part of the reason why Ginny no longer fancies Harry and has moved on to other boys though she does not hate Harry. He does not hate her either. But there is not any interest in getting to know her better even though he probably will if Ginny starts to hang with him a bit more.

zigwiwi

August 29th, 2004, 4:05 pm

You know in retrospect, if you think about it, that is interesting. They rode thestrals (symbols of death) to save Sirius and he died. If you think about that, you can ask now "what did you think was going to happen?"Indeed, good question :) I suppose, the same as when Harry and Hermione ride a hippogriff (symbol of love) So the answer to the former : they're going to meet death, and the later, they're going to meet love ;)

I suppose we have to take care, next time, about what they're going to ride.

He doesn't know Ginny all that well yet. She's still a mystery to be solved. And in so doing, Harry and Ginny have the potential to form a romantic bond, as they get to know each other and learn more about each other. :) That's assuming that Harry cares at all about solving that "mystery". Unfortunatly, he doesn't show any curiousity all through OotP, even though it was the perfect timing to do that since that she was not anymore closed-mouthed in his presence. It's highly speculative to believe that he'll do that next year, now that he has really important things on his plate (like a prophecy about him and Voldemort and the death of his godfather to swallow)

So, I would not expect Harry to go toward Ginny, she would need to help him a bit and make some moves herself, but since she doesn't fancy him anymore ... ;)

Exactly. You don't need five years of friendship to fall for someone. You don't necessarily need that, but I don't see why it's an obstacle either. That's a very funny (and unconvincing) counter-argument you're using here. Since we were discussing Austen not long time ago, what about Emma and M. Kingsley as example ?

Polychrome

August 29th, 2004, 4:12 pm

Actually, there IS a bond between Harry and Ginny, but at the time of Chamber of Secrets, it's not necessarily romance. Harry has just saved Ginny's life after she has been mentally raped by Voldemort, and had the life drained from her to boot. She owes him a life debt, and that in itself is a bond between the two. I have a feeling that Ginny will eventually rescue Harry somehow, whether it be from Voldemort, or his own depression. If it's the latter, then that's just a romance waiting to happen. Sound sappy? Maybe. But sometimes a little sap can be awfully cute. *grin*

I still (and always will) consider Harry's rescue of Ginny to be symbolic of the romantic fairy tale many have dreamed of, but few have had. Ginny was probably wishing for such a thing all year, but when it happened, it turned out to be a huge embarassment for her. Wanting was more favorable than having. IMO, this is probably when her crush on Harry started to fade. Sour grapes I guess.

The problem with Ginny's former crush on Harry was that it halted nearly all communication between the two. Now that Ginny has given herself room to grow a little, and get over the crush, she's finally getting to know Harry as a person. They actually did share some cute moments in Order of the Phoenix. They both have been in past battles with Voldemort, and lived to tell about it. They are both very much aware of this similarity between them. This is not yet a romance, but it's definitely setting the stage for something VERY important. They are united by, if nothing else, a common enemy, and a common past. They both feel tainted. Ginny was jolted out of childhood innocence at only age 11. Harry has had to witness two deaths that directly involved Voldemort's obsession with destroying him. Ginny has Harry's near-death on her conscience. Ginny is, at this time, more aware of this than Harry is.

But then, we must look at the fun things too. :) I laugh out loud every time I read about how Ginny snatched the snitch from under Cho's nose. Dude, I dunno if that's foreshadowing, but if it is, it's one of the most hilarious examples of such that I've ever seen. And from Order of the Phoenix, we know Ginny seems to always know that one very important thing to say to snap Harry out of a bout of depression. Why? Because she alone has an idea of what he's going through. I doubt I was the only person going "Awwww, how cute!" during the easter egg scene. :)

Let's face it, Ginny, if not a love interest, will be a huge influence in Harry's life from now on.

Hermione doesn't hold a candle to Ginny at this point, and for somebody who gets far more lines in the story, that's saying a lot. They are, at this point, very good friends, and always will be. But Harry views Hermione the same way he views Ron. The relationship really IS strictly platonic. They just don't see each other that way.

Besides, Harry seems to view Ron and Hermione in an interesting way:

"What do you think about this?" Hermione demanded of Ron, and Harry was reminded irresistibly of Mrs Weasley appealing to her husband during Harry's first dinner in Grimmauld Place. -Order of the Phoenix

IceKat55

August 29th, 2004, 4:15 pm

Harry doesn't know everything about Hermione. She still surprises him. But the fact is, what Harry knows about Hermione, he doesn't hate it. He's perfectly fine with who Hermione is. She is the way she is, and he wouldn't change her.

Hermione is his best friends, the one who's been by his side since his beginning in the Wizarding World. She's never failed him. She the one constant thing in his life. He could very well have developped certain "feelings" for her without having acknowledged them for what they were.

He can very well be brushing off these Q's by saying, hey, that's just because she's a close friend, no?

Because Harry's never been through anything like this before in his life. He can't compare it to anything else.

The bond they have is growing. It is in constant evolution. It wasn't that way when they first met. Nor was it that way in CoS, or PoA, or GoF. It has grown for five years. It is still growing. Nothing saying some 'feelings' won't be discovered.
The books are from Harry's POV, we get his inner thoughts on most everything. If he thought of Hermione in a romantic way, even on an unconscious level that he's not fully aware of, it would have been made apparant by now. Rowling has had ample opportunity.

And I think he does know everything about Hermione. He knows her brilliance and cleverness, he knows her book-smarts, her ability to help him in a scrape, the fact that she can nag him to the brink of insanity about his homework, the fact that she's not quite as much fun as Ron and that's okay too, the way she fusses and worries over him like a mother-hen (not unlike Molly Weasley), and is a good-hearted, kind and resourceful girl. What's really left?

And I agree, Harry is perfectly fine with Hermione for who she is, he wouldn't change her. He sees her as "his best friend Hermione", and there is nothing wrong with that. Their's is a deep understanding and strong, life-long bond of friendship. But as far as Harry waking up one day and all of a sudden realizing Hermione's amazing qualities, and that she's the girl of his dreams? Sorry, I don't see it....he's had 5 years to spark to that, and it hasn't happened, not even a remote hint of it.

As for Ginny being a mystery to Harry. How is this a good thing? What if they get to know each other and what they see in the other repulses them?

What if they discover something they hate?

Isn't that risky?

*Note that I'm aware that they could love what they would see. There's a fifty/fifty percent chance that it'll go one way or the other.
There is, of course, a chance that Ginny isn't the girl for Harry. But I see good hints of it happening, especially in OotP. Ginny sparks a hopeful feeling in Harry, on two separate occasions. They share a mutual love of Quidditch, Ginny has made the team and so they have that in common to potentially bond over. Ginny has also been possessed by Voldemort, knows how Harry feels about it, and he may (in the future) find that he can talk to her about his own fears & doubts, because she understands where he's coming from.

And Ginny, so far, seems to be able to handle Harry's emotional outbursts. When he snaps harshly at her, she tells him there's 'no need to take that tone with me' calmly and cooly. She has no problem telling him he's being stupid, when he IS being stupid. She's shown me that she may just pack enough punch that she can go toe-to-toe with young Mr Potter, and not be backed down. And Harry needs that in a mate. He doesn't need some psycho head-case emotional sprinkler like Cho (no offense to Cho) who is going to cling to him and weigh him down. He needs a strong, clever girl who can take care of herself as well as helping him. And while yes, this is Hermione...it's also Ginny. And if Harry isn't falling for Hermione...then I like Ginny's chances. :)

Well that is because Harry is not interested in knowing Ginny. This is part of the reason why Ginny no longer fancies Harry and has moved on to other boys though she does not hate Harry. He does not hate her either. But there is not any interest in getting to know her better even though he probably will if Ginny starts to hang with him a bit more.
Actually, it's because Rowling put her on a backburner until Book 5, but then brought her a bit more to the forefront. Why do you suppose she did that? And why do you assume that Harry will not develop an interest in getting to know Ginny better? :huh:

Charmed Cheese

August 29th, 2004, 4:17 pm

Harry doesn't know everything about Hermione. She still surprises him. But the fact is, what Harry knows about Hermione, he doesn't hate it. He's perfectly fine with who Hermione is. She is the way she is, and he wouldn't change her.

Hermione is his best friends, the one who's been by his side since his beginning in the Wizarding World. She's never failed him. She the one constant thing in his life. He could very well have developped certain "feelings" for her without having acknowledged them for what they were.

He can very well be brushing off these Q's by saying, hey, that's just because she's a close friend, no?

Because Harry's never been through anything like this before in his life. He can't compare it to anything else.

The bond they have is growing. It is in constant evolution. It wasn't that way when they first met. Nor was it that way in CoS, or PoA, or GoF. It has grown for five years. It is still growing. Nothing saying some 'feelings' won't be discovered.

There are many qualities of Hermione's that get on Harry's nerves. He'll be irritated by still accepts her and her as a friend. I'm not sure he'd be able to accept her as a girlfriend though.

The bond Harry's had with Ron is in constant evolution and he too has been a constant thing through Harry's journey to Hogwarts (as has the whole Weasley family), before Hermione came into the picture. Ron and Harry did have a fight, but their friendship never broke. Fighting doesn't weaken a friendship. In some ways, it makes it stronger.

There seems to be a tendancy to rise Hermione above Ron, giving her a "Lois Lane" type role were she's the heroine and a tendancy to reduce Ron to a Jimmy Olson role were he's not as important as the heroine and offers comic relief every now and then.

I'm not saying Hermione isn't important to Harry. She is, and also a very important character in the book. I like exploring how much she's important to Harry and how much they care for each other, I just don't like it when it's at Ron's expense, because both friends are equally valuable.

As for Ginny being a mystery to Harry. How is this a good thing? What if they get to know each other and what they see in the other repulses them?

What if they discover something they hate?

Isn't that risky?

*Note that I'm aware that they could love what they would see. There's a fifty/fifty percent chance that it'll go one way or the other.

That's what makes her opposite to Cho.

Harry saw something he liked in Cho: He got to know her and it was a dud.

Harry was indifferent to Ginny: Not a dud?

It's also what contrasts Riddle and Harry.

Riddle showed Ginny love and respect from the beginning, then he broke her heart and trust.
Ginny's heart was in some ways broken by Harry because her love was unrequited. Ginny didn't feel that Harry Potter would ever like her, but thought that Tom was the only one who did. Ginny was wrong about the latter, could she be wrong about the former?
Also, instead of exploiting Ginny's weaknesses and hurting her, Harry should take the opposite route by bringing out her strength and loving her.
Artisitcally, it's another contrast between Harry and Tom. Harry loved where Riddle couldn't.

IceKat55

August 29th, 2004, 4:18 pm

Indeed, good question :) I suppose, the same as when Harry and Hermione ride a hippogriff (symbol of love) So the answer to the former : they're going to meet death, and the later, they're going to meet love ;)

I suppose we have to take care, next time, about what they're going to ride.
I find it so amusing that the author herself does not acknowledge the Hippogriff as a 'symbol of love', but some Harmonians consider it a strong argument! :lol:

And correct me if I'm wrong...but didn't Sirius ride the Hippogriff with them? Oh...ack!! Ewwwwwww!!!!! :p

Polychrome

August 29th, 2004, 4:19 pm

And correct me if I'm wrong...but didn't Sirius ride the Hippogriff with them? Oh...ack!! Ewwwwwww!!!!! :p

The love triangle of pedophilia! :evil:

DragonChamber7

August 29th, 2004, 4:20 pm

Actually, it's because Rowling put her on a backburner until Book 5, but then brought her a bit more to the forefront. Why do you suppose she did that? And why do you assume that Harry will not develop an interest in getting to know Ginny better?

Yes I noticed that too...JK definitely put Ginny into a much bigger role. Book 5 is probably just the beginning of Ginny developing as a charactor...and like you said 'Why do you suppose she did that?' ;) I honestly see Ginny and Harry getting closer. Though I never saw any signs of H/G in the first 4 books, I see the beginning of it now.

Charmed Cheese

August 29th, 2004, 4:21 pm

You don't necessarily need that, but I don't see why it's an obstacle either. That's a very funny (and unconvincing) counter-argument you're using here. Since we were discussing Austen not long time ago, what about Emma and M. Kingsley as example ?

I'm not saying it's an obstacle.

I'm saying that Hermione doesn't have a better chance at being Harry's love interest than Ginny simply because Hermione's been closer to him longer.

It's a counter-arguement not an arguement.

DragonChamber7

August 29th, 2004, 4:23 pm

And correct me if I'm wrong...but didn't Sirius ride the Hippogriff with them? Oh...ack!! Ewwwwwww!!!!! :P

Yes of course! I see the H/H/S now! haha...now they can't use that excuse anymore. ;)

Polychrome

August 29th, 2004, 4:23 pm

There seems to be a tendancy to rise Hermione above Ron, giving her a "Lois Lane" type role were she's the heroine and a tendancy to reduce Ron to a Jimmy Olson role were he's not as important as the heroine and offers comic relief every now and then.

Personally, I see Harry as being "Luke Skywalker", and Hermione and Ron being Leia and Han. :eyebrows:

And hey, I'm not much of a Star Wars Extended Universe fan, but Luke does end up marrying a red-head. :rotfl:

vitacus

August 29th, 2004, 4:30 pm

Does that make fuzzy Godfather Sirius Chewbacca? :P

A.J. : If anybody's anybody, I'm Han and you're Chewbacca.
Oscar : Chewy? Have you ever seen Star Wars?

I read before on here somewhere that Nev and Luna should become an item. Can you imagine Neville standing up for Luna when people start stealing her books again? Nev is coming into his own, afterall.

zigwiwi

August 29th, 2004, 4:32 pm

I find it so amusing that the author herself does not acknowledge the Hippogriff as a 'symbol of love', but some Harmonians consider it a strong argument! :lol: You already know the answer, if she had done that, she would spoil the debate about a mystery that is not yet resolved (who will fall in love with whom)

And correct me if I'm wrong...but didn't Sirius ride the Hippogriff with them? Oh...ack!! Ewwwwwww!!!!! :p He did at a point, but it should not prevent us to use a bit of common sense, like using the symbol when two people are involved and not three, and when it's about people of the same age.

I'm not saying it's an obstacle.

I'm saying that Hermione doesn't have a better chance at being Harry's love interest than Ginny simply because Hermione's been closer to him longer. It's not the "longer" which is important, it's the "closer". H/Hr are just closer than H/G, and it's speculation to think that H/G will grow significantly closer in the next books since neither of them seems to show any inclination to do so. H/Hr not only are closer, but their bond is still growing in each book.

WeasleyIsOurKing

August 29th, 2004, 4:35 pm

It's not the "longer" which is important, it's the "closer". H/Hr are just closer than H/G, and it's speculation to think that H/G will grow significantly closer in the next books since neither of them seems to show any inclination to do so. H/Hr not only are closer, but their bond is still growing in each book.

After twenty-some love threads, I sitll don't understand how Harry and Hermione's relationship is growing, even after OotP, when he goes out of his way to lie to her and avoid telling her what is bothering him.

zephyrz

August 29th, 2004, 4:35 pm

Dude...this whole relationship thing is just so confusing!! At this point, I think that all the characters should just pretend that they're all eleven years old again and just be happy friends. I've been reading waaaaay too much fanfiction lately and it usually results in me screaming "Ew!" really loudly and running away from the computer. I wonder that if, on some level, the books would be lesser if they went into 'Romance Novel' mode and drifted away from the crazy happenings at Hogwarts.

Aside from that, I would like to introduce a new ship- HMS Toilet. Moaning Myrtle/Ron- for all of those that see death in his future...

:huh:

Melcb98

August 29th, 2004, 4:37 pm

H/Hr are just closer than H/G,
Really? Wow. Thats news to me. J/K.
So, what? Harry and Hermione are friends! Friends! Hermione has been there, with Ron, through Harry's life. Of course they are closer than other people are to Harry. That does not mean that Harry has to fall in love with Hermione.

H/Hr not only are closer, but their bond is still growing in each book.
Their bond is a pretty normal one considering what they have been through. But, you forgot to mention Ron here. Ron has a bond with Hermione. Ron has a bond with Harry. Those bonds will continue to grow, as well. It is a trio, not a duo.

IceKat55

August 29th, 2004, 4:39 pm

You already know the answer, if she had done that, she would spoil the debate about a mystery that is not yet resolved (who will fall in love with whom)
Or, could be she just isn't using the Hippogriff in that way, so it's not important, and so that's that. Don't you think she should have at least put it into Fantastic Beasts, so that the HP sleuths could have seen her use of that little tidbit and gone "Oooooh! Possible clue for H/Hr romance? Or red herring?"

He did at a point, but it should not prevent us to use a bit of common sense, like using the symbol when two people are involved and not three, and when it's about people of the same age.
*hands over box of straws* Grasp away, my friend! :p

It's not the "longer" which is important, it's the "closer". H/Hr are just closer than H/G, and it's speculation to think that H/G will grow significantly closer in the next books since neither of them seems to show any inclination to do so. H/Hr not only are closer, but their bond is still growing in each book.
So then, why is it okay to assume and speculate that H/Hr will grow significantly closer in the final two books, but not H/G? :huh:

Epiphany

August 29th, 2004, 4:41 pm

The books are from Harry's POV, we get his inner thoughts on most everything. If he thought of Hermione in a romantic way, even on an unconscious level that he's not fully aware of, it would have been made apparant by now. Rowling has had ample opportunity.

Actually, it's been shown that he thinks of Hermione more than any other person he knows. You can use the it's because they are friends theory as much as you want, it won't change the fact that he's had more dreams about her, that he's heard her voice in his head more than anyone's. This is on an unconscious level, like you say. But it shows how important she is to him.

And I think he does know everything about Hermione. He knows her brilliance and cleverness, he knows her book-smarts, her ability to help him in a scrape, the fact that she can nag him to the brink of insanity about his homework, the fact that she's not quite as much fun as Ron and that's okay too, the way she fusses and worries over him like a mother-hen (not unlike Molly Weasley), and is a good-hearted, kind and resourceful girl. What's really left?

What's left? Since when has Hermione become an open-book? She's the one person in the trio we still wonder about. She has so many secrets still. She hides her feelings all the time. You can't say "what you see is what you get" with Hermione. There's so much more to discover about her. Did Harry know that the sorting hat had considered putting her in Ravenclaw, before OotP? He doesn't know much about her yet. We neither.

And I agree, Harry is perfectly fine with Hermione for who she is, he wouldn't change her. He sees her as "his best friend Hermione", and there is nothing wrong with that. Their's is a deep understanding and strong, life-long bond of friendship. But as far as Harry waking up one day and all of a sudden realizing Hermione's amazing qualities, and that she's the girl of his dreams? Sorry, I don't see it....he's had 5 years to spark to that, and it hasn't happened, not even a remote hint of it.

That's not how I see it either. I think that if Sirius wouldn't have died, the fact that he nearly lost Hermione would have been the *spark* to make the "engine" start. It's something much more subtile than him waking up one day In love with her. Those feelings, they are there. He just doesn't see them as what they are. If he ever has to be separated from Hermione, that is, if she simply refuses to help him, he will see how much she means to him. Because for the moment, she's the one thing that's been constant in his life. What would happen if he lost her? At least for a while?

Maybe he would come to acknowledge the feelings that are inside of him for what they really are.

There is, of course, a chance that Ginny isn't the girl for Harry. But I see good hints of it happening, especially in OotP. Ginny sparks a hopeful feeling in Harry, on two separate occasions. They share a mutual love of Quidditch, Ginny has made the team and so they have that in common to potentially bond over. Ginny has also been possessed by Voldemort, knows how Harry feels about it, and he may (in the future) find that he can talk to her about his own fears & doubts, because she understands where he's coming from.

Actually, one time the hopeful feeling comes from the news that the Twins will be able to help him.

And the next one because, hey, who would want to be possessed by Voldemort? Who wouldn't feel relieved at knowing that they are *not* possessed?

And Ginny, so far, seems to be able to handle Harry's emotional outbursts. When he snaps harshly at her, she tells him there's 'no need to take that tone with me' calmly and cooly. She has no problem telling him he's being stupid, when he IS being stupid. She's shown me that she may just pack enough punch that she can go toe-to-toe with young Mr Potter, and not be backed down. And Harry needs that in a mate. He doesn't need some psycho head-case emotional sprinkler like Cho (no offense to Cho) who is going to cling to him and weigh him down. He needs a strong, clever girl who can take care of herself as well as helping him. And while yes, this is Hermione...it's also Ginny. And if Harry isn't falling for Hermione...then I like Ginny's chances. :)

Ginny didn't do much more than follow Harry blindly in OotP. Hermione was the only one to stand up to him and tell him that he was wrong - without resorting to name calling.

When Ginny told him that he was stupid for forgetting about her being Tom Riddle's victim, she was right. It was stupid of Harry. But did she say that wanting to run head first in the DoM, without thinking first, was stupid? Because, that was also pretty stupid. But no. She closed her eyes on that fact and followed him, to what could have been her death.

Actually, it's because Rowling put her on a backburner until Book 5, but then brought her a bit more to the forefront. Why do you suppose she did that? And why do you assume that Harry will not develop an interest in getting to know Ginny better? :huh:

Because he's not interested in her?

The girl has grown out of her crush, leave her in peace!

Poor Ginny! (to quote JKR :p )

WeasleyIsOurKing

August 29th, 2004, 4:43 pm

Ginny didn't do much more than follow Harry blindly in OotP. Hermione was the only one to stand up to him and tell him that he was wrong - without resorting to name calling.

When Ginny told him that he was stupid for forgetting about her being Tom Riddle's victim, she was right. It was stupid of Harry. But did she say that wanting to run head first in the DoM, without thinking first, was stupid? Because, that was also pretty stupid. But no. She closed her eyes on that fact and followed him, to what could have been her death.

Well, by the Harmonian logic, this make Ginny as loyal, if not more, to Harry than Hermione is.

What Hermione has failed to do acknowledge Harry's feelings. For example - when she found out Harry wanted to speak to Sirius - not once did she inquire as to why he would want to speak to him. She only nagged him not to do it.

As Ron said - Harry can make up his own mind.

Melcb98

August 29th, 2004, 4:44 pm

Or, could be she just isn't using the Hippogriff in that way, so it's not important, and so that's that. Don't you think she should have at least put it into Fantastic Beasts, so that the HP sleuths could have seen her use of that little tidbit and gone "Oooooh! Possible clue for H/Hr romance? Or red herring?"

Thank you. What we need to know about the background to a Hippogriff in JKR's world is in Fantastic Beasts. She also gave an interview, posted on the first page, that also indicates that she didn't do a lot of thnking when using the hippogriff.
I said it before, and I'll say it again:
The hippogriff is just another creature, in a world full of creatures?

BTW- why is it soooo important to have the hippogriff as symbolism for your ship? Does that really sink it if you don't??

As x-ray said: there is too much around the hippogriff that indicates nothing about love. And, if you are going to symbolize something, it has to apply to everything.

Epiphany

August 29th, 2004, 4:45 pm

Well, by the Harmonian logic, this make Ginny as, if not more, loyal to Harry than Hermione is.

Because Hermione wanted Harry to be safe?

And Ginny just wanted to go on a big and scary adventure?

:huh:

zephyrz

August 29th, 2004, 4:47 pm

There is one question I'd like to ask the Chocolateers- If H/Hr can't happen because they're too close and there's no mystery left, why does it have to be H/G? Doesn't H/L also fit those guidelines? And Ron and Hermione have also been friends just as long as Harry, but that doesn't seem to stop them.

I don't know, but I feel very strongly towards a N/G, and always have. They're both characters that have been in the background for years and have finally started to get into the limelight in OotP. Sticking Neville with Luna just doesn't seem right- the two characters haven't clicked at all on any level and that particular pairing is rather random. We shippers on the LT haven't been giving any discussin to Luna at all, and I believe that she should be on of the most important characters, shipping-wise, other than Harry and Hermione. Why exactly would a person younger than the trio and in a different house from them be introduced this late in the book? It wasn't only because she can see thestrals, I can assure you that...

:huh:

sone

August 29th, 2004, 4:48 pm

Actually, it's because Rowling put her on a backburner until Book 5, but then brought her a bit more to the forefront. Why do you suppose she did that? You don't want to know.

And why do you assume that Harry will not develop an interest in getting to know Ginny better? :huh: That is your assumption, not mine. You said "he doesn't know Ginny all that well yet". I simply responded, well that is because Harry is not interested in knowing Ginny....but there is not any interest in getting to know her better even though he probably will if Ginny starts to hang with him a bit more.

Melcb98

August 29th, 2004, 4:48 pm

Because Hermione wanted Harry to be safe?

And Ginny just wanted to go on a big and scary adventure?
1. Hermione is the logical one, she had to say something.
2. Hermione didn't get her way, and followed Harry blindely into the DOM
3. Ron, Luna, and Neville also went- so where are your stances with them in Harry's lives
4. The fact that Ginny, as well as Neville and Luna, went at all, says a lot. They care for Harry, and wanted to help him. You find fault with that?

Heatherhobbit

August 29th, 2004, 4:51 pm

I've been reading waaaaay too much fanfiction lately and it usually results in me screaming "Ew!" really loudly and running away from the computer. :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: I totally agree. There are some real perverts out there!

Aside from that, I would like to introduce a new ship- HMS Toilet. Moaning Myrtle/Ron- for all of those that see death in his future...

Actually, it's Harry that Myrtle fancies. Not Ron.

IceKat55

August 29th, 2004, 4:51 pm

Actually, it's been shown that he thinks of Hermione more than any other person he knows. You can use the it's because they are friends theory as much as you want, it won't change the fact that he's had more dreams about her, that he's heard her voice in his head more than anyone's. This is on an unconscious level, like you say. But it shows how important she is to him.
Yes. Hermione is the only guiding 'voice of reason' Harry has ever known in his entire life. He grew up without parents, and with relatives who loathe the idea of him. Hermione worries about him, nags him to do his homework, cautions him to think before he leaps, and 'mothers' him...she is his internal and external 'voice of reason'.

Actually, one time the hopeful feeling comes from the news that the Twins will be able to help him.

And the next one because, hey, who would want to be possessed by Voldemort? Who wouldn't feel relieved at knowing that they are *not* possessed?
Ginny never said she was going to the Twins for help. She said 'the thing about growing up with' them is that you start to think anything is possible. Harry doesn't know, at this point, whether she is formulating a plan on her own, or involving the Twins. But he still feels 'hopeful' as he looks at her. :)

Because he's not interested in her?

The girl has grown out of her crush, leave her in peace!

Poor Ginny! (to quote JKR :p )
And just because her 'schoolgirl crush' is over, why does that mean she can never, ever, ever consider Harry for a grown-up, mature relationship? :huh:

And thank you, but Rowling's exact quote is: "you'll see...poor Ginny, eh?" :p

zigwiwi

August 29th, 2004, 4:54 pm

After twenty-some love threads, I sitll don't understand how Harry and Hermione's relationship is growing, even after OotP, when he goes out of his way to lie to her and avoid telling her what is bothering him. Well, for example Harry now has Hermione's voice in his head. It's difficult to get any closer (beside physical closeness)

Speaking of physical closeness, the amount of physical contact between them goes in increasing too, especially as OotP advances, see the Grawp incident, and then the DoM, but also a few one even before. That's something specific to Harry/Hermione and no one else, JKR chose to have it this way.

I pick one scene as example :
'Er... all righ',' Hagrid whispered back. 'In fact -'

He stopped suddenly and turned around; Hermione walked right into him and was knocked over backwards. Harry caught her just before she hit the Forest floor.

'Maybe we bes' jus' stop fer a momen', so I can... fill yeh in,' said Hagrid. 'Before we ge' there, like.'

'Good!' said Hermione, as Harry set her back on her feet.
As you see, JKR write this whereas it has absolutely no bearing with the plot. It only introduces a gratuitous physical contact between Harry and Hermione, and they keep the contact during a significant amount of time since Hagrid has time to speak a whole sentence between the moment Harry catch Hermione and the moment he set her back on her feet.

This passage is completely gratuitous, but you have many others following up, that are more involved in the plot, but nevertheless they happen between Harry and Hermione and no one else. That's JKR's choice.

IceKat55

August 29th, 2004, 4:54 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by IceKat55
And why do you assume that Harry will not develop an interest in getting to know Ginny better?

That is your assumption, not mine. You said "he doesn't know Ginny all that well yet". I simply responded, well that is because Harry is not interested in knowing Ginny....but there is not any interest in getting to know her better even though he probably will if Ginny starts to hang with him a bit more.
Sorry, what? You started with "there is not any interest in getting to know her better", I asked "why do you assume that Harry will not develop an interest in getting to know her better?" and you say that it's my assumption? :scared:

sone

August 29th, 2004, 4:54 pm

1. Hermione is the logical one, she had to say something.

She is also the one who cares very much about Harry, she didn't nearly tackle him in a hug or hold shaking hand over her eyes when Harry got cleared of all charges for sport.

2. Hermione didn't get her way, and followed Harry blindely into the DOM

Actually, she did get her way. Harry checked 12G first before going off to the Department of Mysteries, which in the end saved their lives and salvaged the situation.

3. Ron, Luna, and Neville also went- so where are your stances with them in Harry's lives

Friends who wanted to help Harry. Harry seems to draw a strong sense of loyalty out of people, even when he is angry at them.

4. The fact that Ginny, as well as Neville and Luna, went at all, says a lot. They care for Harry, and wanted to help him. You find fault with that?

I find fault that they didn't think it was a trap. Same with Harry. It was his stupidity that helped lead to Sirius dying.

ETA:

You started with "there is not any interest in getting to know her better", I asked "why do you assume that Harry will not develop an interest in getting to know her better?" and you say that it's my assumption? Yes, because just because there is not any interest in getting to know her better does not mean there never will be. Like I said, your assumption, not mine.

Epiphany

August 29th, 2004, 4:55 pm

1. Hermione is the logical one, she had to say something.

Why is that a bad thing?

2. Hermione didn't get her way, and followed Harry blindely into the DOM

She didn't. She knew the consequences. She followed Harry out of Loyalty to him.

3. Ron, Luna, and Neville also went- so where are your stances with them in Harry's lives

Ron, Luna, and Neville wanted to help. Ron, throughout the book, hasn't got the guts to stand up to Harry, fearing an apparition of CAPSLOCK!Harry.

4. The fact that Ginny, as well as Neville and Luna, went at all, says a lot. They care for Harry, and wanted to help him. You find fault with that?

I've said so. They wanted to help. But they didn't care about the consequences. For Harry or for the others. They followed him blindly into a trap. Hermione knew it was a trap, and did all she could to protect Harry and the others.

But it was Four against One. Thanks to the others, Harry went to the DoM to see his Godfather die.

ETA: sone was quicker than I, once again - good post :tu:

IceKat55

August 29th, 2004, 4:57 pm

Speaking of physical closeness, the amount of physical contact between them goes in increasing too, especially as OotP advances, see the Grawp incident, and then the DoM, but also a few one even before. That's something specific to Harry/Hermione and no one else, JKR chose to have it this way.

I pick one scene as example :
'Er... all righ',' Hagrid whispered back. 'In fact -'

He stopped suddenly and turned around; Hermione walked right into him and was knocked over backwards. Harry caught her just before she hit the Forest floor.

'Maybe we bes' jus' stop fer a momen', so I can... fill yeh in,' said Hagrid. 'Before we ge' there, like.'

'Good!' said Hermione, as Harry set her back on her feet.
As you see, JKR write this whereas it has absolutely no bearing with the plot. It only introduces a gratuitous physical contact between Harry and Hermione, and they keep the contact during a significant amount of time since Hagrid has time to speak a whole sentence between the moment Harry catch Hermione and the moment he set her back on her feet.
:lol: What should Harry do here, jump back out of the way so she doesn't land on him & just let the poor girl fall?! :lol:

Epiphany

August 29th, 2004, 4:58 pm

:lol: What should Harry do here, jump back out of the way so she doesn't land on him & just let the poor girl fall?! :lol:

Did Hermione have to fall in the first place?

Melcb98

August 29th, 2004, 5:00 pm

But it was Four against One. Thanks to the others, Harry went to the DoM to see his Godfather die.
Ohhhh, I see. Its Ron, Ginny, Luna, and Neville's fault that Sirius is dead? Funny, I thought it was Beallitrix. I also thought that if Harry had actually listened to Hermione, that he would still be alive. I also thought that if Harry had actually remembered Snape, that Sirius would be alive. Well, then.

Hermione was right, that is not what I am talking about. I am aaking why does this have to do with LOVE? It doesn't. These things do not tell me that Hermione and Harry are falling in love or are already in love or anything. It shows me an immense friendship.

Also, I think that credit should be given to credit where it was due. Luna, Ginny, and Neville did not need to go. Going into a place where Voldemort is believed to be, is a HUGE thing. Especially, since we are talking about wizard born children, who grew up fearing him, knowing what he is capable of.

sone

August 29th, 2004, 5:01 pm

Exactly Epiphany. You missed the entire point completely IceKat55. The scene was written for a reason just as you said Ginny's role increasing had some importance.

Melcb98

August 29th, 2004, 5:02 pm

Did Hermione have to fall in the first place?

Did you notice any, indication that Harry liked touching Hermione? No, I didn't. So, I really don't think this scene is anything shippy, at all. No, spark.

daz

August 29th, 2004, 5:07 pm

where are the sparks with ron all they do is bicker wow thats sexy/ romantic(NOT)

sone

August 29th, 2004, 5:08 pm

Did you notice any, indication that Harry liked touching Hermione? Yes, I did. This type of interaction starts increasing between the two of them throughout the rest of the book. Hermione for the first time starts clinging on to Harry himself rather than just his arm, Harry starts taking more and more of an initative to protect her and Hermione starts grabbing his arm again.

Melcb98

August 29th, 2004, 5:11 pm

Yes, I did. This type of interaction starts increasing between the two of them throughout the rest of the book. Hermione for the first time starts clinging on to Harry himself rather than just his arm, Harry starts taking more and more of an initative to protect her and Hermione starts grabbing his arm again.

Out on a limb here- but I'd have to say that 15 year old girls do not do that with boys they have secret crushes on. Just saying.
Besides, when they touched, neither one of them- especially Harry, because it is his point -of-view, said "Ooooohh, Hermione's touching me, this feeling right."

oliveros

August 29th, 2004, 5:11 pm

Heatherhobbit

August 29th, 2004, 5:11 pm

Well, for example Harry now has Hermione's voice in his head. It's difficult to get any closer (beside physical closeness)

Speaking of physical closeness, the amount of physical contact between them goes in increasing too, especially as OotP advances, see the Grawp incident, and then the DoM, but also a few one even before. That's something specific to Harry/Hermione and no one else, JKR chose to have it this way.

I pick one scene as example :
'Er... all righ',' Hagrid whispered back. 'In fact -'

He stopped suddenly and turned around; Hermione walked right into him and was knocked over backwards. Harry caught her just before she hit the Forest floor.

'Maybe we bes' jus' stop fer a momen', so I can... fill yeh in,' said Hagrid. 'Before we ge' there, like.'

'Good!' said Hermione, as Harry set her back on her feet.
As you see, JKR write this whereas it has absolutely no bearing with the plot. It only introduces a gratuitous physical contact between Harry and Hermione, and they keep the contact during a significant amount of time since Hagrid has time to speak a whole sentence between the moment Harry catch Hermione and the moment he set her back on her feet.

This passage is completely gratuitous, but you have many others following up, that are more involved in the plot, but nevertheless they happen between Harry and Hermione and no one else. That's JKR's choice.

You have all of this physical contact between Harry and Hermione, yet no spark. We're in Harry's head, and yet he never once notices a spark or anything remotely romantic. No long gazes. No parted lips. No blushing. No lingering hand touching. No quickened breathing. No hightened awareness of her body. No tension. Nothing! I think the fact that there is all this physical contact (in a dangerous and scary situation, I might add) and still no spark is very bad evidence for H/Hr. Platonic friends can touch each other in dangerous and scary situations and feel nothing. Obviously from what we've read so far Harry has felt nothing. And since we haven't seen Hermione blushing, holding his gaze for a long period of time, or her quickened breathing, we have to assume that either she isn't feeling anything either or else she is able to hide it very well. Let me add, in a life threatening situation, hiding romantic feelings is going to be the last thing from their minds. In fact, it's the perfect opportunity for the characters to realize their love for one another.
I really feel this is why JKR seperated Hermione and Ron in the DOM. JKR is not ready to get these two together quite yet, but if they would have been in a life threatening situation together, their love for each other would have to be addressed, because in that kind of situation, all pretense in thrown out the window.

Epiphany

August 29th, 2004, 5:11 pm

Ohhhh, I see. Its Ron, Ginny, Luna, and Neville's fault that Sirius is dead? Funny, I thought it was Beallitrix. I also thought that if Harry had actually listened to Hermione, that he would still be alive. I also thought that if Harry had actually remembered Snape, that Sirius would be alive. Well, then.

It's not exactly what I meant. If the others hadn't been so quick to say I do to Harry then maybe, maybe Harry would have came down, and tried to think it through. Harry was stupid enough not to think it was a trap - the others didn't see this as well.

They had the best intentions, they wanted to help Harry. Nothing wrong with that - but everyone should(included Harry) have taken the time to think it through.

Hermione was right, that is not what I am talking about. I am aaking why does this have to do with LOVE? It doesn't. These things do not tell me that Hermione and Harry are falling in love or are already in love or anything. It shows me an immense friendship.

It shows that Hermione was the one who cared enough for Harry to stand up to him and make him think.

What is important to note here, is that she followed him even if she knew it was a trap, and could have cost her her life. She knew it was a trap. She knew she could have died. But she still went with Harry.

Also, I think that credit should be given to credit where it was due. Luna, Ginny, and Neville did not need to go. Going into a place where Voldemort is believed to be, is a HUGE thing. Especially, since we are talking about wizard born children, who grew up fearing him, knowing what he is capable of.

Yuppers I agree. But in the end, they were all trapped. Harry included. They had the best intention, but they didn't think.

Very brave they were - but one has to use the mind also, if he wants to survive.

That's why Hermione is so important for Harry. To keep him safe. Otherwise, he would jump into things, led by his emotions. She's his reason.

zigwiwi

August 29th, 2004, 5:11 pm

:lol: What should Harry do here, jump back out of the way so she doesn't land on him & just let the poor girl fall?! :lol: Exactly, as Epiphany said, why did JKR choose to write that passage that way in the first place, it has nothing to do with the plot and has no consequences later on except to bring one more physical contact in an already steadily and quicly growing list near the end of OotP.

You're answer is like if what happens in the HP universe is completely random, but it's not, it happens because JKR choose to have it happening. And not only that, but she's not about to waste pages to write things that have no meaning nor significance. If it has no direct consequence on the plot (Harry and Hermione going in the forest with Hagrid) then it must have a deeper one.

The only good explanation, beside the one that it's foreshadowing of H/Hr and showing that they don't dislike at all maintaining some physical contact during some significant period of time (all during Hagrid's sentence), is that it's a red herring. Unfortunatly, that's a very bad argument for Herons, who is supposed to be the obvious ship, the one promoted in JKR's interviews (at least until OotP was out). R/Hr fits well as red herring, but H/Hr not at all.

IceKat55

August 29th, 2004, 5:14 pm

Did Hermione have to fall in the first place?
Dunno...how good is her sense of balance? :rolleyes:

daz

August 29th, 2004, 5:17 pm

LOL funny icekat

IceKat55

August 29th, 2004, 5:18 pm

Out on a limb here- but I'd have to say that 15 year old girls do not do that with boys they have secret crushes on. Just saying.
Besides, when they touched, neither one of them- especially Harry, because it is his point -of-view, said "Ooooohh, Hermione's touching me, this feeling right."
Precisely. Girls and boys (of that age) that are comfortable with each other and are good friends have no problem with that kind of physical proximity. Hugging, kissing cheeks, gripping arms, clinging to when terrified, all these are signs that Hermione is maturing and is comfortable with Harry. Her kissing him at the end of GoF, "something she had never done before", is a very telling sign of this. Hermione is growing up. And she is comfortable in her role as Harry's close friend.

The fact that she doesn't have such close proximity or physical comfortableness with Ron is the point. :)

sone

August 29th, 2004, 5:19 pm

Out on a limb here- but I'd have to say that 15 year old girls do not do that with boys they have secret crushes on. Just saying.
Not that you know of. You may be a girl, but you are not every girl and from personal experience I can tell you that is not always the truth.

Besides, when they touched, neither one of them- especially Harry, because it is his point -of-view, said "Ooooohh, Hermione's touching me, this feeling right." In the situations they were in, I don't think they would nor would Harry need to. However it is still nevertheless interesting that the interaction increases between them (and between them only) rather the recedes.

daz

August 29th, 2004, 5:21 pm

there are subtle hints of harmony and in your face hints of heron.so we aint going to agree anytime soon.for me harmony go together a lot better they complete each other

IceKat55

August 29th, 2004, 5:24 pm

Let me add, in a life threatening situation, hiding romantic feelings is going to be the last thing from their minds. In fact, it's the perfect opportunity for the characters to realize their love for one another.
*not to dredge up the Movies again, but...*

Excellent point, and perfectly illustrated in the PoA movie. Hermione and Ron show awkwardness at touching in the first Buckbeak scene. Then later, in a 'life threatening situation' (for Beaky), when they think he's been executed, Hermione's depth of sorrow casts away all awkwardness of physical proximity to Ron. She's upset, wants to be comforted, and turns to Ron instead of Harry with no awkwardness. :)

And yes, this could also mean a shippy moment for H/Hr in the werewolf attack, but only if she has romantic feelings for Harry or vice-versa. However, I don't see that they do, since there is never any awkwardness between H/Hr touching, at any time. So that scene is nothing more than Hermione being terrified, Harry comforting her and giving her a moment to collect herself, and an opportunity for him to crack a joke about Poor Professor Lupin's really tough night. No romantic hints, no gazing at each other, no "Hermione raising her eyes to Harry's" lingering moment/feeling sparks, no Harry brushing her hair off her face and reassuring her "it's over, he's gone now, we're okay", etc. Friends helping each other out, nothing more. :)

Heatherhobbit

August 29th, 2004, 5:24 pm

Exactly, as Epiphany said, why did JKR choose to write that passage that way in the first place, it has nothing to do with the plot and has no consequences later on except to bring one more physical contact in an already steadily and quicly growing list near the end of OotP.

You're answer is like if what happens in the HP universe is completely random, but it's not, it happens because JKR choose to have it happening. And not only that, but she's not about to waste pages to write things that have no meaning nor significance. If it has no direct consequence on the plot (Harry and Hermione going in the forest with Hagrid) then it must have a deeper one.

The only good explanation, beside the one that it's foreshadowing of H/Hr and showing that they don't dislike at all maintaining some physical contact during some significant period of time (all during Hagrid's sentence), is that it's a red herring. Unfortunatly, that's a very bad argument for Herons, who is supposed to be the obvious ship, the one promoted in JKR's interviews (at least until OotP was out). R/Hr fits well as red herring, but H/Hr not at all.
Hermione falling is for pacing reasons. It adds to the drama and danger of the scene. It adds action. It keeps them from being static. It adds interest. That's the thing with some Harmonians. Every single interaction between Harry and Hermione ends up being interpretted as romantic, when sometimes it's just for literary reasons.

IceKat55

August 29th, 2004, 5:25 pm

Epiphany

August 29th, 2004, 5:26 pm

Precisely. Girls and boys (of that age) that are comfortable with each other and are good friends have no problem with that kind of physical proximity. Hugging, kissing cheeks, gripping arms, clinging to when terrified, all these are signs that Hermione is maturing and is comfortable with Harry. Her kissing him at the end of GoF, "something she had never done before", is a very telling sign of this. Hermione is growing up. And she is comfortable in her role as Harry's close friend.

The fact that she doesn't have such close proximity or physical comfortableness with Ron is the point. :)

Girls and Boys of that age aren't all the same. They can't be put in the same bag.

It's not because JKR said that Ron was a typical boy that it's the way it is for every single boy of that age.

Is Hermione a "typical girl"? Has JKR said so, anywhere in one of her interviews? Hermione is no typical girl. She has a lot more brain than most - not meaning that the others aren't clever. She is different from most girls in the way she acts, in her beliefs.

She doesn't think about dating. She doesn't think too much about her looks. She doesn't giggle everytime she sees a cute boy.

Ron is more "typical", as he's the kind of boy to talk about sports and girls all the time. Add a touch of Firewhisky and pranks, and you're there.

Ron is Ron. Nothing bad about that - I love Ron. He's the "normal" one out of the trio.

If Ron can't be close to Hermione, it's his problem. I don't see her having any trouble being close to him. I've yet to read anything on that uneasiness on her part.

Heatherhobbit

August 29th, 2004, 5:27 pm

That's why Hermione is so important for Harry. To keep him safe. Otherwise, he would jump into things, led by his emotions. She's his reason.
I agree that Hermione is very important to Harry. But that is not an indication of romantic love. She keeps him safe, like a friend, sister, or mother would. But like you mentioned, she leads him away from his emotions and urges him to be more logical. That trait is not good for a girlfriend, even a girlfriend of Harry Potter. A girlfriend is for emotions. Hermione is the 'anti emotion' person in Harry's life. How could she possibly make a good girlfriend?

IceKat55

August 29th, 2004, 5:27 pm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melcb98
Besides, when they touched, neither one of them- especially Harry, because it is his point -of-view, said "Ooooohh, Hermione's touching me, this feeling right."

In the situations they were in, I don't think they would nor would Harry need to. However it is still nevertheless interesting that the interaction increases between them (and between them only) rather the recedes.
What do you mean, "in the situations they were in"? So...are they shippy signs, or not? Shippiness, or just Harry helping his friend in a difficult situation? :huh:

zigwiwi

August 29th, 2004, 5:27 pm

You have all of this physical contact between Harry and Hermione, yet no spark. We're in Harry's head, and yet he never once notices a spark or anything remotely romantic. No long gazes. No parted lips. No blushing. No lingering hand touching. No quickened breathing. No hightened awareness of her body. No tension. Lol, JKR is a bit more subtle than that.

First you still have to explain why JKR have Hermione falling here, what purpose does it serves in the book if it's not about H/Hr ? Do you think she's just making OotP a bit bigger gratuitously ? Again, JKR just does not write random events just to fill some books.

Second, you say "No lingering hand touching", etc ... But notices that Harry does not "quickly" put Hermione back on her feet. Nooo, instead he catch her, then Hagrid goes on speaking and complete a whole sentence, and then only Harry put her back on her feet. Sure, it's more subtle than you're suggestion, but it's exactly the same purpose at the end of the day. Harry liked having Hermione in his arms ;) And I prefere it written this way, it's simply less cheesy.

I really feel this is why JKR seperated Hermione and Ron in the DOM. JKR is not ready to get these two together quite yet, but if they would have been in a life threatening situation together, their love for each other would have to be addressed, because in that kind of situation, all pretense in throw out the window. Suuure, like Hermione choosing to grab Harry's arm in the circular room in the DoM. You know, Hermione and Ron were not separated all the way, Ron was present in that circular room, but yet, JKR choose to add one more H/Hr contact ;)

Epiphany

August 29th, 2004, 5:31 pm

IceKat55

August 29th, 2004, 5:32 pm

sone

August 29th, 2004, 5:32 pm

Hermione falling is for pacing reasons. It adds to the drama and danger of the scene. It adds action. It keeps them from being static. It adds interest. Precisely, it adds interest. For me it says that maybe there is something going on between Harry and Hermione for this scene to be written the way it was. Rowling could of wrote something completely different for "literary reasons", but she didn't. She decided to write something that increases between Harry and Hermione from this point on to the end of the book. This is why I consider this scene a clue.

Perfectly said zigwiwi and Epiphany.

ETA:

What do you mean, "in the situations they were in"? So...are they shippy signs, or not? Shippiness, or just Harry helping his friend in a difficult situation? :huh: I mean the situations they were in. Think of all the times Hermione was clinging on to Harry one way or the other or when Harry was grabbing Hermione. In any case, yes they are shippy signs, I would of thought my opinion on that would of been obvious.

Melcb98

August 29th, 2004, 5:37 pm

Hermione has emotions. She doesn't let them take the better of her. Sometimes, she should do so. That's where Harry comes in. He helps her use her emotions. She helps him use his mind.
Honestly, where do you get that from? Hermione does research for Harry, helps him study....as she does for Ron.
Harry is having a hard time with himself in OotP, and I didn't see anything to indicates that he spent extra time helping Hermione "use her emotions." Hermione was scared of Harry when they got into a fight. This is not a good thing.

I don't see this magical connection that Harry and Hermione supposedly have in OotP that is different from the other books.

I also think that we all should remember RON. He is around, he is there, he is caring for his friends, he isn't shoved into the background.

zigwiwi

August 29th, 2004, 5:39 pm

Hermione falling is for pacing reasons. It adds to the drama and danger of the scene. It adds action. It keeps them from being static. It adds interest. That's the thing with some Harmonians. Every single interaction between Harry and Hermione ends up being interpretted as romantic, when sometimes it's just for literary reasons. Ah, at last, that's better already. I would agree with you if it were not for the increasing repeatition of that pattern of having physical contact. You can explain one or two instances with your argument, but they are too numerous to say that it's just coincidental and for "pacing" reasons. It's not like introducing contacts between Harry and Hermione is the only way to have a bit of action and suspense ;)

Heatherhobbit

August 29th, 2004, 5:40 pm

Lol, JKR is a bit more subtle than that.

First you still have to explain why JKR have Hermione falling here, what purpose does it serves in the book if it's not about H/Hr ? Do you think she's just making OotP a bit bigger gratuitously ? Again, JKR just does not write random events just to fill some books.
Pacing...adding action, danger, suspense, pain, interest. If she wanted to make it romantic, she would have. But she didn't. She can't make a romance too subtle, otherwise it will completely fly over the heads of most readers.
Second, you say "No lingering hand touching", etc ... But notices that Harry does not "quickly" put Hermione back on her feet. Nooo, instead he catch her, then Hagrid goes on speaking and complete a whole sentence, and then only Harry put her back on her feet. Sure, it's more subtle than you're suggestion, but it's exactly the same purpose at the end of the day. Harry liked having Hermione in his arms ;) And I prefere it written this way, it's simply less cheesy. He was picking her up off the ground. Hagrid's sentence, if spoken normally takes about 3 seconds to say. That's not a long time if you are picking someone up off the ground.

Suuure, like Hermione choosing to grab Harry's arm in the circular room in the DoM. You know, Hermione and Ron were not separated all the way, Ron was present in that circular room, but yet, JKR choose to add one more H/Hr contact ;)
To show comfort. If she had Hermione grabbing Ron, she would have to address their romantic feelings for each other, because in life threatening situations, hiding feelings is the last thing you're thinking about. JKR purposely seperated Ron from Hermione (his potential love interest) and Harry from Ginny and Luna (his potential love interests)

oliveros

August 29th, 2004, 5:43 pm

I agree that Hermione is very important to Harry. But that is not an indication of romantic love. She keeps him safe, like a friend, sister, or mother would. But like you mentioned, she leads him away from his emotions and urges him to be more logical. That trait is not good for a girlfriend, even a girlfriend of Harry Potter. A girlfriend is for emotions. Hermione is the 'anti emotion' person in Harry's life. How could she possibly make a good girlfriend?

Heatherhobbit, ive seen you make some great arguments for your ship, but this really isnt one of them. :no:

This works for no ship involving Hermione and you know it. She's like that with everyone, thats the kind of person that she is. She does her best to protect everyone (not just Harry) trying to make them see her logical view of things. There is much more to a girlfriend than just for emotions, after all "behind every great man there is a great woman". She is not the anti-emotions person in his life, shes the voice of reason, keeping him from doing irrational things that can lead him to very difficult situations. Any girlfriend Harry has will have to help him deal with that.

What you said goes against any ship involving Hermione, R/Hr included.

sone

August 29th, 2004, 5:44 pm

Honestly, where do you get that from?I get it from the Prisoner of Azkaban, the Goblet of Fire and the Order of the Phoenix.

Hermione was scared of Harry when they got into a fight. If she was scared of Harry, she would of never stood up to him in the first place. That is the reason they even had the huge argument about Sirius in the first place. Hermione went from apprehensive to fiercely and this is while Harry is in a full blown rage.

I also think that we all should remember RON. He is around, he is there, he is caring for his friends, he isn't shoved into the background. Actually he is at times as he is busy with other activities like Quidditch. While he is having Quidditch practice or the game of his life, Hermione is helping restore Harry's reputation the public and they're both out in the Forbidden Forest dealing with Grawp. Then when Ron and the others are out fighting the Inquisitorial Squad, Harry and Hermione are dealing with murderous centaurs and Grawp again.

Melcb98

August 29th, 2004, 5:45 pm

'Have you seen Ron?' Hermione asked in a low voice.

Harry shook his head.

'I think he's avoiding us', said Hermione. 'Where do you think he-?'

But at that precise moment, there was a creaking sound behind them as the Fat Lady swung forwards and Ron came clambering through the portrait hole. He was very pale indeed and there was snow in his hair. When he saw Harry and Hermione, he stopped dead in his tracks.

'Where have you been?' said Hermione anxiously, springing up.

'Walking', Ron mumbled. He was still wearing his Quidditch things.

'You look frozen', said Hermione. 'Come and sit down!'

and:

'Well, actually... no, Ron', said Hermione with a heavy sigh, putting down her book and looking at him apologetically. 'As a matter of fact, the only bit of the match Harry and I saw was Davies's first goal.'

Ron's carefully ruffled hair seemed to wilt with disappointment. 'You didn't watch?' he said faintly, looking from one to the other. 'You didn't see me make any of those saves?'

'Well - no', said Hermione, stretching out a placatory hand towards him. 'But Ron, we didn't want to leave - we had to!'

'Yeah?' said Ron, whose face was growing rather red. 'How come?'

'It was Hagrid', said Harry. 'He decided to tell us why he's been covered in injuries ever since he got back from the giants. He wanted us to go into the Forest with him, we had no choice, you know how he gets. Anyway...'

Both of these instances have Hermione being a friend to Ron. Not unlike the scenes used for shippy evidence for H/H. I don't think these two scenes are particulary shippy, so I really don't think the scenes where Hermione is a friend to Harry should be, as well.

Oh, and if you look closely. Hermione literally reaches out to Ron is the second scene. So, when she does it to Harry, again, not shippy.

Heatherhobbit

August 29th, 2004, 5:46 pm

Hermione has emotions. She doesn't let them take the better of her. Sometimes, she should do so. That's where Harry comes in. He helps her use her emotions. She helps him use his mind.

They complete eachother perfectly on that point. How could that be a bad thing? :huh:
I don't get it!!!! Hermione is always dominating Harry, except when Harry is angry then he dominates her. How is that being perfect for each other? Ron does not try to dominate Hermione, and when he tries, she puts him in his place. Same with Hermione, when she tries to dominate Ron, he puts her in her place. It's equal.

oliveros

August 29th, 2004, 5:46 pm

What do you mean, "in the situations they were in"? So...are they shippy signs, or not? Shippiness, or just Harry helping his friend in a difficult situation? :huh:

The times that Harry has protected Hermione (with the possible exception of the time at the DoM) show nothing very shippy. There was nothing else to do. His friend was in danger and he had to protect her. He has a saving people thing :D

Epiphany

August 29th, 2004, 5:48 pm

Honestly, where do you get that from? Hermione does research for Harry, helps him study....as she does for Ron.
Harry is having a hard time with himself in OotP, and I didn't see anything to indicates that he spent extra time helping Hermione "use her emotions." Hermione was scared of Harry when they got into a fight. This is not a good thing.

Where was she scared of Harry? An example would be appreciated. In my book, it's Ron who was scared of Harry. He refused to give an opinion unless he was sure Harry wouldn't go all CAPSLOCK.

Hermione stands up to Harry, even if we see her cry. They both 'fight', but in the end, they compromise.

Hermione is, how do you say that again? I'm losing my English I tell ya! - err, she's acting more like Harry would in certain situations. Like, she will now rebel against any authority(Umbridge, Ministry of Magic) that is against Harry, without any trouble.

She's letting her hair down a bit more. She's just keeping her head cool. Harry needs to do that, and she's there to help him.

This has nothing to do with homeworks.

I don't see this magical connection that Harry and Hermione supposedly have in OotP that is different from the other books.

Did you read the same book I read? They read each other's thoughts! They finish the other's sentences! They subconsciously tend to take the other's arm if in danger.

I also think that we all should remember RON. He is around, he is there, he is caring for his friends, he isn't shoved into the background.

I haven't forgotten Ron. But he was a bit less 'present' in OotP, no?

gesundheit

August 29th, 2004, 5:50 pm

That's right will be never be sure about who will fall in love with whom, until the series are over, or until the sixth book is out; and that is if decided to do something about it on the sixth book.
Nevertheless, I wish Ron and Hermione could fall in love, I'm still undecided about Hermione and Harry...

Melcb98

August 29th, 2004, 5:51 pm

I get it from the Prisoner of Azkaban, the Goblet of Fire and the Order of the Phoenix.
And yet, JKR says that Harry and Hermione are very platonc friends for POA and GOF. Hmmm.

If she was scared of Harry, she would of never stood up to him in the first place. That is the reason they even had the huge argument about Sirius in the first place. Hermione went from apprehensive to fiercely and this is while Harry is in a full blown rage.
read the scene: Harry stepped closer to Hermione because He wanted to shake her. Now, thats not very nice.
Also we have:
looking frightened yet determined
she looked more apprehensive than ever
looking positively petrified at the look on Harry's face
AND
Harry let out a roar of frustration. Hermione actually stepped back from him, looking alarmed.

It wasn't until Harry started yelling at Ron, that Hermione got back to her fiercely mode.

Not a very positive scene on the shipping front. Negatives all around.

Heatherhobbit

August 29th, 2004, 5:53 pm

Heatherhobbit, ive seen you make some great arguments for your ship, but this really isnt one of them. :no:

This works for no ship involving Hermione and you know it. She's like that with everyone, thats the kind of person that she is. She does her best to protect everyone (not just Harry) trying to make them see her logical view of things. There is much more to a girlfriend than just for emotions, after all "behind every great man there is a great woman". She is not the anti-emotions person in his life, shes the voice of reason, keeping him from doing irrational things that can lead him to very difficult situations. Any girlfriend Harry has will have to help him deal with that.

What you said goes against any ship involving Hermione, R/Hr included.
Ron wears his emotions on his sleeve. He needs someone like Hermione who can balance his over emotional side. Harry tends to hold emotions in, except in extreme situations (like having Voldemort in your head) and needs someone who can balance that out. Hermione only encourages him to be unemotional. Admittedly, in a dangerous situation it is necessary to remain unemotional, but in everyday life, emotions are an important part of any relationship. When thinking about who will fall in love with whom, you have to think about life post Voldemort. After Voldemort is gone, Harry will no longer need to be unemotional so often. If fact, after living the life that he has, he's going to need someone who can help him get his emotions out.