Patronus - not only for Dementors?

[atherella]

Ok, I did the search. I swear. There are threads on particular people's patronus's etc, but nothing on the actual PURPOSE of them.

Purpose of this thread is to discuss what other things a patronus can potentially be used for. All we really seem to know about them is:

*They can effectively fight off a dementor attack;
*They need very happy memories in order to produce one;
*The shape of a patronus is individual to whomever produces it (and seems to have specific meaning to the person producing it);
*They can be commanded to act in a certain manner (such as when Harry commands his stag to go after the dementor attacking Dudley)
*They are very advanced magic and some fully qualified wizards cannot produce them;
*A corporeal patronus takes the form of an actual 'creature' (I'm not sure if it can take a form that is not an animal?)

When I first read PoA, I guess I assumed it was only to fight off dementors, but after closer readings, I've realized, a patronus can be used for more, yet I can't find a specific mention for what else they can be used for.

Here is an example of canon suggesting that a patronus can be used for something other than a dementor attack:

OotP, American hardcover edition page 606
They had finally started work on Patronuses, which everybody had been very keen to practice, though as Harry kept reminding them, producing a Patronus in the middle of a brightly lit classroom when they were not under threat was very different from producing it when confronted by something like a dementor.

(Bolding and italics my own.)

The use of the phrase -- 'something like a dementor' seems to suggest that there are other times using a Patronus while being attacked is practical and efficient.

Another phrase (same page as above):
"They're not supposed to be pretty, they're supposed to protect you," said Harry patiently. "What we really need is a boggart or something; that's how I learned, I had to conjure a Patronus while the boggart was pretending to be a dementor - "

Ok, they are supposed to protect you - but what else can they protect you from? The two phrases I listed above seem to suggest, if not outwardly imply that a Patronus can be used for more than a dementor attack, which makes sense really. How many wizards are ACTUALLY going to have to fight off a dementor attack in their lifetime?

We know that there is no counter-curse for the unforgiveable curses, but would producing a patronus be a protection? It isn't really a curse, it is more of a charm, I'd think.

So, any thoughts?

Edit - one other thing - I don't think it was by accident that Harry is teaching the D.A. to produce a Patronus. What are the chances a bunch of students is going to encounter a dementor attack (errr, ok, I just rethought that part. The demetors are on the 'bad' side now, but still...). I think that was some foreshadowing that we'll see the D.A. members conjuring patronuses during some sort of battle.

[Dark Penguin]

Very interesting theory, atherella! I never really thought of that. It's possible that Patronuses (is that the plural?) can be used for other things, but we don't know of any other creatures like dementors that it could be used against. Patronuses seem to be creatures made of hope and happiness to counteract the depressing effects of Dementors, so I would suppose that Patronuses would only work against creatures similar to Dementors, that create senses of dread or fear... maybe it works on people? :p

But no, seriously... what would Patronusing Voldemort do!?

[Barbara Kennedy]

The general discussion about a patronus could include all the things it is used against. As always, Mods' choice on this keeping this thread. Perhaps a merging of the threads?

Patronus Ponderings (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=30127)
Will Harry’s patronus take another form? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=28206)
Hermione’s (and other character’s) patronuses (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=11249)

[deadpoetjs]

I like this idea because I was actually thinking along the same lines last time I was reading OotP. To me, it seems illogical that such a highly regarded and complicated piece of magic would only be used to fight off dementors because, come on, how often are you going to encounter a dementor? They obviously don't just go around very often.

Perhaps there are other forces or maybe spells that have the same effect as dementors and Patronuses can be used against them. Interesting thought.

[daftie]

Yes, this is a good thought. Why would the DA be so eager to learn how to conjure Patronuses, besides the fact that they're pretty? There must be something else. The only reason Harry ever faced the dementors was because they were situated around the castle; the odds of that happening again must be about a million to one.

But what else could they be used for?

[Cine]

How many wizards are ACTUALLY going to have to fight off a dementor attack in their lifetime?

Now that got me thinking. Why did Remus bother learning how to conjure a patronus? Of course, he might just have learned it for safety, since as you're saying, they might be useful for other things too.

..But might he have been plotting to get Sirius out of Azkaban? :O [/unlikely theory]

[grrliz]

How many wizards are ACTUALLY going to have to fight off a dementor attack in their lifetime?That's a very important distinction to make: is a Patronus a really obscure and arcane piece of magic that most people won't learn because most people won't need it, or is it in fact something a lot more useful that has it's place in the every day wizarding world?

Patronuses are currently one of my favourite things about the wizarding world, but they leave me with more questions than answers. Regarding what else it could be used for, these are the questions I ask myself:

Is the Patronus Charm something students learn in school, or is it something they have to take upon themselves to learn, like Harry and the DA? You learn practical, common magic at Hogwarts; things that are likely to help you in real life. If it isn't taught, does that mean it's highly obscure and can't be used on anything other than Dementors (or Dementor-Boggarts)?If it is taught, when do they learn it (obviously sixth or seventh year), and what examples do they give for potential uses of the patronus (which is the crux of this thread, really)

If the Patronus Charm is something that is normal and everyday magic, since most people are unlikely to get Dementor attacked in their day-to-day lives, why are people so shocked that Harry can produce a corporeal patronus? Yes, his age is a factor, but I think Lupin says that most experienced adult wizards can't do it. It doesn't make sense that it would be standard magic yet no one can do it.

Patronuses are strongest when they're corporeal, but seem to still be effective (just not as much) as the silver wisp thta sometimes occurs. How effective is this silvery wisp? Is it enought provide regular wizards who can't produce the corporeal Patronus with at least some protection? Is it less ore more effective than a Shield Charm? It takes more effort to produce than a Shield Charm, so I'd hope it worked better.

Lupin says the Patronus is a positive force that helps protect you. What kind of creatures are put off by a positive force? Is it a requirement that the creature "feed" off the Patronus, the way the Dementors do, or is it enough that it creates a positive shield to ward off the advances of the creature?
That's all I've got for now. I hate that I asked more questions and didn't answer any. :)

[Barbara Kennedy]

It sounds like a good defensive spell to know as a Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher.
I imagine it can be used to defend yourself against any number of creatures and/or magical forces. It certainly seems to work against boggarts.

[Nicole]

The Patronus Charm is the only magic spell known to work against lethifolds. Hints suggest the dementors were created/derived from lethifolds. See "Fantastic Beasts & Where to Find Them", p. 25.
Since the spell was used to repell the lethifold it must have existed prior to Flavius Belby using it to survive its attack in 1782.

[atherella]

Is the Patronus Charm something students learn in school, or is it something they have to take upon themselves to learn, like Harry and the DA? You learn practical, common magic at Hogwarts; things that are likely to help you in real life. If it isn't taught, does that mean it's highly obscure and can't be used on anything other than Dementors (or Dementor-Boggarts)?If it is taught, when do they learn it (obviously sixth or seventh year), and what examples do they give for potential uses of the patronus (which is the crux of this thread, really):)

I always thought they didn't learn it at school - otherwise, why is it that so many fully trained wizards cant' produce one? I suppose it's possible that they just weren't very inept at charms where I assume it would be taught, but it gives me a 'hinky' feeling that this isn't taught at school. Madame Bones of the MoM during Harry's hearing was so surprised about Harry being able to conjure a corporeal patronus that she told her niece about it? Just seems like it's so advanced that you don't even see that many people who can produce one.

Lupin says the Patronus is a positive force that helps protect you. What kind of creatures are put off by a positive force? Is it a requirement that the creature "feed" off the Patronus, the way the Dementors do, or is it enough that it creates a positive shield to ward off the advances of the creature?
That's all I've got for now. I hate that I asked more questions and didn't answer any.

I imagine other dark creatures perhaps? I need to pick up a copy of FBAWTFT. Sigh.
(A bit off topic - I always thoroughly enjoy your post grrliz, they are so well thought out and ask great questions that really give me things to ponder. :D)

[Slither]

I think it's a possibility that a corporeal Patronus can be used on people. During a Quidditch match in the Prisoner of Azkaban, Draco Malfoy and his friends decided to take advantage of Harry's weakness and visit the stadium dressed as dementors, in a ploy to humiliate or even cause injury to Harry. Harry's attempt in driving off the false dementors with the Patronus charm Lupin had been teaching him must've been successful, even though he was too occupied with his position as Seeker to watch the effects of his conjuring. But later, Lupin compliments him on his Patronus, and said it gave Draco quite a fright. Also, the force of the Patronus was evidently enough to knock Draco and his friends off their feet and become entangled in their robes. Perhaps the stag had not come into physical contact with Draco, even though it had been shot in his direction, but it was enough to stop him in his tracks. The Patronus doesn't necessarily need to touch the dementors either, to serve its protective purpose.

[grrliz]

I always thought they didn't learn it at school - otherwise, why is it that so many fully trained wizards cant' produce one? I suppose it's possible that they just weren't very inept at charms where I assume it would be taught, but it gives me a 'hinky' feeling that this isn't taught at school. Madame Bones of the MoM during Harry's hearing was so surprised about Harry being able to conjure a corporeal patronus that she told her niece about it? Just seems like it's so advanced that you don't even see that many people who can produce one.Meh, I wish I remembered which thread I discussed this in, but my argument for them teaching the Patronus Charm in school was that when Lupin is telling Harry about the difficulty level of the charm he tells him it's "beyond the Ordinary Wizarding Level", which we know is fifth year. But I thought if it was something so complicated that they didn't learn it in school, wouldn't he have said "beyond the NEWT level" thus implying that you have to teach it to yourself post-Hogawrts (or during Hogwarts with the help of a nice teacher :)). That's not really the most concrete evidence to suggest that they learn it in school, but I figure it's better than nothing. Maybe Hogwarts instituted new curriculum since Amelia Bones was at school, who knows. :)

Just for reference: who would teach the Patronus Charm, Flitwick (since he is the Charms professor) or the DADA teacher (since it is a fairly useful defence against dark arts)?

(A bit off topic - I always thoroughly enjoy your post grrliz, they are so well thought out and ask great questions that really give me things to ponder. :D)Why thank you, I always enjoy yours too! </mutual ego massaging :)>

I think it's a possibility that a corporeal Patronus can be used on people. During a Quidditch match in the Prisoner of Azkaban, Draco Malfoy and his friends decided to take advantage of Harry's weakness and visit the stadium dressed as dementors, in a ploy to humiliate or even cause injury to Harry. Harry's attempt in driving off the false dementors with the Patronus charm Lupin had been teaching him must've been successful, even though he was too occupied with his position as Seeker to watch the effects of his conjuring. But later, Lupin compliments him on his Patronus, and said it gave Draco quite a fright. Also, the force of the Patronus was evidently enough to knock Draco and his friends off their feet and become entangled in their robes. Perhaps the stag had not come into physical contact with Draco, even though it had been shot in his direction, but it was enough to stop him in his tracks. The Patronus doesn't necessarily need to touch the dementors either, to serve its protective purpose.I'm not sure that it was an actual corporeal patronus that Harry conjured, especially since he was preoccupied with catching the snitch. All the book says is "Something silver white, something enormous, erupted from the end of his wand." The patronus at the end of the book is described the same way, only more brilliant, and there the reference to the stag formation is made. Regardless, you're right that it did have an effect on Malfoy and friends, especially considering, like I said, Harry was distracted at the time. One can only wonder what kind of damage he would have done had he had time to react better!

(I was just thinking: if chocolate is the antidote to Dementors, so to speak, what's the antidote to a Patronus attack?)

[atherella]

I think it's a possibility that a corporeal Patronus can be used on people. During a Quidditch match in the Prisoner of Azkaban, Draco Malfoy and his friends decided to take advantage of Harry's weakness and visit the stadium dressed as dementors, in a ploy to humiliate or even cause injury to Harry. Harry's attempt in driving off the false dementors with the Patronus charm Lupin had been teaching him must've been successful, even though he was too occupied with his position as Seeker to watch the effects of his conjuring. But later, Lupin compliments him on his Patronus, and said it gave Draco quite a fright. Also, the force of the Patronus was evidently enough to knock Draco and his friends off their feet and become entangled in their robes. Perhaps the stag had not come into physical contact with Draco, even though it had been shot in his direction, but it was enough to stop him in his tracks. The Patronus doesn't necessarily need to touch the dementors either, to serve its protective purpose.

Oh good point!! I forgot all about that. So, it seems that a Patronus would at least have some sort of negative effect on a person. I agree with grrliz, I'm not sure if it was a corporeal patronus that Harry produced during the match (although in I believe it was the All About Remus Lupin thread there was discussion on this that seemed to point to the fact that it was indeed in stag form from the use of DD stating later in the book how surprised he was at the shape the patronus took and how Lupin stated how it 'charged'.)

So, taking into account that a Patronus, whether it be corporeal or not, would have negative effects on people, I wonder what would happen to LV (or his minions) if Harry (or anyone on the good side, for that matter) were to produce a Patronus that charged him/them?

[grrliz]

So, taking into account that a Patronus, whether it be corporeal or not, would have negative effects on people, I wonder what would happen to LV (or his minions) if Harry (or anyone on the good side, for that matter) were to produce a Patronus that charged him/them?I don't know about everyone else, but I'm picturing the stag Patronus laying a nice beat down on Voldemort and it's amongst the funniest things I've been induced into thinking by this forum!
:rotfl:

[Lplus]

Well, Harrys patronus gave Draco and his friends a fright, but the fact they fell over is not really evidence of physical force from the patronus. They were standing on each other's shoulders and the fright could easily have simply made them overballance.

[shrug]

Interesting Idea that Dementors were derived from Lethifolds. Dementors live on feelings, Lethifolds live on animals, including human.

[Slither]

I think it was a real Patronus, because even later on in the books, Lupin mentions it a second time. At near the end of the PoA, after Lupin has resigned his teaching position and is packing his things away in his office, Harry visits him, and mentions what form his Patronus took which drove away a hundred dementors. Lupin recalls the "unusual form" Harry's Patronus had taken during the Quidditch match, and fondly relates it to James's stag Animagus. Perhaps the Patronus had not had a completely definite shape back then, but it looked discernable, perhaps.

[atherella]

I don't know about everyone else, but I'm picturing the stag Patronus laying a nice beat down on Voldemort and it's amongst the funniest things I've been induced into thinking by this forum!
:rotfl:

:rotfl: I may tend to watch too much Discovery channel and Animal Planet, but that does tend to inspire thoughts of LV getting hit with the antlers and thrown into the air landing on his head. I wonder if that would work? How very hopeful!!! :rotfl:

[ramones]

I can't believe this thread was started after I posted in another thread my theory about Harry using the Patronus against Lord Voldemort!

Maybe we have a psychic connection Atherella. Maybe you tried to kill me with the AK curse and that's why I have a scar on my nose! We have a connection!!

Anyway, I think the quote from page 606 means that Harry would like to use something like a dementor, meaning a boggart, which would become a dementor we it sees Harry.
Then of course you could be right and Patronuses could be used against other creatures.

I don't think it is something taught at school. And if it is, teachers might not except all the students to produce a Patronus.
Cho was a sixth year and I'm sure she learned it in the DA. Lee Jordan was pretty impressed that Harry could conjure a Patronus, which makes me think they don't teach it in school.

[Skrewt30]

It's possible that the patronus is taught in school, even if not all fully trained wizards can produce one. If a patronus charm is a NEWT level charm (which is above OWL level), then maybe only those students that choose to take NEWT level DADA classes learn it. That would mean students planning to enter some professions wouldn't ever learn it. Also, if it is a particularly difficult NEWT level charm, maybe not even all students who earn a NEWT in DADA can master it. After all, there are different levels of passing grades for those exams - I forget what they are right now, but they go from something like acceptable to outstanding.

[atherella]

I can't believe this thread was started after I posted in another thread my theory about Harry using the Patronus against Lord Voldemort!

Maybe we have a psychic connection Atherella. Maybe you tried to kill me with the AK curse and that's why I have a scar on my nose! We have a connection!!


I saw that earlier and though... WHOA!!! :lol: I even linked you over to this thread after in case you hadn't seen it. Very weird!!! :D

Does anyone who has a copy of FBAWTFT have any ideas of any dark creatures that might potientially be a candidate for a Patronus attack? I wish I had a copy of it. Maybe I should run off to Amazon.com or ebay and order myself one. :p

[lilbittv]

I have been re-reading POA and I just read the part where Harry wakes up in the Hospital Wing and Hermione tells Harry about how Dumbledore was very angry and came down to the quidditch field when he (Harry) fell because of the Dementors. And told him what DD had done.
She says and I quote (American Version) ".....you sort of slowed down before you hit the ground. Then he whirled his wand at the dementors. Shot silver stuff at them."
Seems to me as if maybe Dumbledore could not produce a corporeal patronus himself. If he had produced a corporeal patronus, I think Hermione, being as observant as she is, would have surely said something more like "He shot a strange silver goldfish at them." BTW I am just guessing it would be a goldfish or something.
Well this leaves me to believe that maybe Expecto Patronus could be a spell or charm (have we decided which it is yet?) that is introduced at Hogwarts, but is not something that is expected to be mastered by the time you leave school. Sort of like in High School Science classes now, they tell you and you learn about DNA, but they don't expect you to be able to clone yourself by the end of the year. It just seems to me, that too many people know what a Patronus is for them not to be taught about it in school. Could something that difficult to do be such common knowledge if not all were at least introduced to the theory of a patronus?

It would be great to see LV run down by a Patronus. Actually since Harry's patronus takes the form of his father's animagus form could there be some extra power in it that could be used against LV? Just asking, because after all James also died trying to save Harry.

[grrliz]

I have been re-reading POA and I just read the part where Harry wakes up in the Hospital Wing and Hermione tells Harry about how Dumbledore was very angry and came down to the quidditch field when he (Harry) fell because of the Dementors. And told him what DD had done.
She says and I quote (American Version) ".....you sort of slowed down before you hit the ground. Then he whirled his wand at the dementors. Shot silver stuff at them."
Seems to me as if maybe Dumbledore could not produce a corporeal patronus himself. If he had produced a corporeal patronus, I think Hermione, being as observant as she is, would have surely said something more like "He shot a strange silver goldfish at them." BTW I am just guessing it would be a goldfish or something.I've often wondered about that, because there are a couple of other incidents in the books where people "shoot silver stuff" at other people but it never takes on a corporeal form. I wonder if there is another spell that might have the same look as a non-corporeal patronus. Obviously in that situation mentioned Dumbledore was using the Patronus if he was warding off Dementors, but it strikes me as very odd that he wouldn't be able to produce a real patronus, you know?

[Bmonk]

I know this is a bit out in left field but only a few wizards can create a corporeal patronus right or Lupin said not even some of the most experienced adult wizards can do it, say when DD fought Voldemort, DD cast his Patronus spell his patronus being a Pheonix is Fawkes and because DD is so powerful his patronus is in full form, therefore the fact harry can conjure one is so important maybe his stag can take a shot of AK from Voldemort.

[atherella]

I've often wondered about that, because there are a couple of other incidents in the books where people "shoot silver stuff" at other people but it never takes on a corporeal form. I wonder if there is another spell that might have the same look as a non-corporeal patronus. Obviously in that situation mentioned Dumbledore was using the Patronus if he was warding off Dementors, but it strikes me as very odd that he wouldn't be able to produce a real patronus, you know?

I totally agree. I wonder if Jo simply described it that way because she just didn't want us to know quite yet what DD's patronus was? Perhaps in the horror of the moment, Hermione didn't really notice what shape the silver stuff took because she was more focused on watching and worrying about what would happen to Harry. Sounds like a bit of a cop-out answer, I know, but I find it almost impossible to believe that Dumbledore of all people cannot produce a proper patronus when he requires one. We know he can conjure one from what JKR said at the EBF.

The idea of another spell is interesting, yet I wonder if there would really be 2 spells that both fight dementors that both have the 'silvery stuff'.

[dumbleedore]

The Patronus Charm is the only magic spell known to work against lethifolds. Hints suggest the dementors were created/derived from lethifolds. See "Fantastic Beasts & Where to Find Them", p. 25.
Since the spell was used to repell the lethifold it must have existed prior to Flavius Belby using it to survive its attack in 1782.

You took the words right out of my mouth :p

I totally agree. I wonder if Jo simply described it that way because she just didn't want us to know quite yet what DD's patronus was?

I believe that JK recently said that Dumbledore's patronus is a Phoenix :)

[Starlight]

As others have said, we know from Fantastic Beasts that a lethifold can only be repelled by the patronus charm.

Re: Why even advanced wizards can produce a patronus - I took that as meaning that some wizards can't produce a patronus because they don't have a happy enough thought. A bit like what Hermione said about the potions task in P/SS, like even some of the best wizards don't have an ounce of logic, some of them can't produce a happy enough thought.

Also, I think that as of the end of OotP it would be useful to know how to produce the patronus, as didn't it say that the MoM will be sending out leaflets on how to protect oneself, including how to produce a patronus?

[dumbleedore]

Re: Why even advanced wizards can produce a patronus - I took that as meaning that some wizards can't produce a patronus because they don't have a happy enough thought.

Expanding on your idea slightly, perhaps only advanced wizards would have the mental strength when faced with a real Dementor to keep focused on the happy memory. A Patronus does seem to be a concentration of the mind as well- such as Harry 'tricking' his mind in PoA to enable him to cast the Patronus.

[grrliz]

I totally agree. I wonder if Jo simply described it that way because she just didn't want us to know quite yet what DD's patronus was? Perhaps in the horror of the moment, Hermione didn't really notice what shape the silver stuff took because she was more focused on watching and worrying about what would happen to Harry. Sounds like a bit of a cop-out answer, I know, but I find it almost impossible to believe that Dumbledore of all people cannot produce a proper patronus when he requires one. We know he can conjure one from what JKR said at the EBF.

The idea of another spell is interesting, yet I wonder if there would really be 2 spells that both fight dementors that both have the 'silvery stuff'.I think that at that point in the book, not only did she not want us to know what Dumbledore's patronus was, she didn't want us to know about the corporeal forms of patronuses either. At the end of the book Dumbledore mentions that Harry's stag patronus charged on Malfoy during the Quidditch game against Ravenclaw, but when that scene is described (I think I mentioned it in an earlier post) it doesn't specify that the patronus took on an animal form. We had to wait until we learned of the relationship between Harry's patronus and his father's animagus form before we actually got to see the patronus in the book. So I assume it's the same thing with Dumbledore: his patronus was conjured at the Quidditch match against Hufflepuff, which took place before the one against Ravenclaw, i.e. even earlier in the book.

I believe that JK recently said that Dumbledore's patronus is a Phoenix :)I find it weird, yet not, that she shared that with us. Like I said, we only learned what Harry's corporeal patronus was after we learned the relevance of it's form. The first time we meet Fawkes is in CoS, but we don't meet him again until GoF (I think). In CoS we don't know about dementors or patronuses yet, but we do in GoF and OotP. Fawkes is one of the more important creatures we encounter in the books, and because of that a lot of people had already figured it out before JKR told us. We know because she has given us a reference point for figuring it out; even if she had profusely mentioned Prongs the Stag throughout PoA, we still wouldn't know Harry's patronus would take that form because we have no point of reference for figuring it out. But of course, she didn't mention Prongs for that exact reason, it had to wait until the end of the book in order to create that dynamic, enabling us to figure out the Fawkes thing. That's why I don't think it's a huge deal that we know Dumbledore's patronus is a phoenix; she knew we were smart enough to figure it out on our own.

[Nicole]

I saw that earlier and though... WHOA!!! :lol: I even linked you over to this thread after in case you hadn't seen it. Very weird!!! :D

Does anyone who has a copy of FBAWTFT have any ideas of any dark creatures that might potientially be a candidate for a Patronus attack? I wish I had a copy of it. Maybe I should run off to Amazon.com or ebay and order myself one. :p

You might want to try Barnes&Noblei (bn.com) instead. Available as a boxed set of Harry Potter schoolbooks, hardcover. I have seen the prices on ebay and they are outrageous with claims that the books are out of print (not true). The price for the boxed set (FB + Quidditch Through the Ages) is $10.36 + shipping (but free shipping if you spend $25 or more). The paperback copy of FB is $3.99 + s/h, and I think QTA is the same.

I believe the lethifold is the only beast listed with a mention of the Patronus Charm, however.

[Baron_G]

Patronuses can also be used as signals. Dumbledore conjures a silver ghostly bird to summon Hagrid in GoF who comes running to help (when Crouch went missing). I'm sure Dumbledore has used it a lot in coordinating Order members in battle. This is incidentally also the reason JKR didn't hesitate to say that Dumbledore's Patronus is indeed a phoenix. It was guessable from the GoF clue although this is the first Patronus we've heard of that's based on a magical creature.

[x0Gred_Forge0x]

Maybe when Dumbledore rushed down to the field to help Harry, he was in such a hurry and was so angry that he didn't have time or a happy thought in his head at the moment to produce a corporeal patronus

Although, there were quite a few dementors there so he probably has to produce a strong patronus, but he is a strong wizard anyways so you never know

[Nicole]

Patronuses can also be used as signals. Dumbledore conjures a silver ghostly bird to summon Hagrid in GoF who comes running to help (when Crouch went missing). I'm sure Dumbledore has used it a lot in coordinating Order members in battle. This is incidentally also the reason JKR didn't hesitate to say that Dumbledore's Patronus is indeed a phoenix. It was guessable from the GoF clue although this is the first Patronus we've heard of that's based on a magical creature.

Dang, BaronG, I had just come back to post the Patronus used as a messenger bit and found you had beat me to it! This provides an ordinary type of usage and a reason to learn the spell. (It also answers the question of why most people would not have thought to use it on a lethifold.) I wonder if the Patronus falls into the ancient magic category....

[Baron_G]

Interesting. The guy (described in Fantastic Beasts) who first managed to survive a lethifold attack probably conjured the Patronus as a means to call for help but discovered that it repelled the lethifold by itself. Very interesting. Thanks! :)

[RemusLupinFan]

Is the Patronus Charm something students learn in school, or is it something they have to take upon themselves to learn, like Harry and the DA? You learn practical, common magic at Hogwarts; things that are likely to help you in real life. If it isn't taught, does that mean it's highly obscure and can't be used on anything other than Dementors (or Dementor-Boggarts)?If it is taught, when do they learn it (obviously sixth or seventh year), and what examples do they give for potential uses of the patronus (which is the crux of this thread, really)My first thought was that the Patronus Charm is too advanced to be taught at Hogwarts, because Lupin says many qualified wizards have trouble with it. But then I was thinking, what if it is only introduced to students who take Advanced Defense Against the Dark Arts? Since this curriculum is probably not followed by all that many students (I see it as a sort of Honors DADA class), it's possible they may be taught how to conjure a Patronus, although perhaps in a controlled setting. I think the most common application of the Patronus Charm is to ward off dementors, so I believe this would probably be how the Charm is applied to classroom learning. But I also think professors would be inclined to mention that it can be used against Lethifolds. There may also be other situations where a Patronus might be helpful that we might learn about in future books.

In addition to students possibly learning the Patronus Charm, there must be certain people from the Ministry who would benefit from knowing how to conjure a Patronus, even if it isn't a corporeal one. Possibly, wizards who have to deal with dangerous magical beasts could be taught the Patronus Charm, considering Lethifolds are repelled by it. Or perhaps there are wizards who maintain Azkaban who know how to conjure a Patronus. In any case, I don't think there are many people who can conjure a true, corporeal Patronus like Harry can in a situation where lives are at stake. This is why it is such advanced magic- it requires the conjurer to focus their mind on intense feelings of happiness and positive energy in dire circumstances, when one or more people may be facing a worse-than-death scenario.Patronuses are strongest when they're corporeal, but seem to still be effective (just not as much) as the silver wisp thta sometimes occurs. How effective is this silvery wisp? Is it enought provide regular wizards who can't produce the corporeal Patronus with at least some protection? Is it less ore more effective than a Shield Charm? It takes more effort to produce than a Shield Charm, so I'd hope it worked better.The way I see it, the silver wisp merely hangs in the air in front of the dementor, kind of like a shield, as you've mentioned. When Harry conjures the silver wisp, the dementor is momentarily blocked, but it can then just sweep aside the feeble Patronus. The difference with a corporeal patronus is that it is able to actively charge down and attack the dementors to drive them away. About the Shield Charm, it seems like it would only work to block incoming spells, but would not protect against physical injury. The way I understand it, someone casts the Shield Charm when they are about to be hit by a curse. The curse then strikes the shield and bounces back toward the one who performed the curse. Of course, I could be wrong about the way the Shield Charm works, but this is just my interpretation.


In regards to Dumbledore's conjuring a silvery bird as a signal, I like the idea that nickyg suggested about the accidental discovery that Patronuses repel Lethifolds. The only thing I am wondering is why one would use a Patronus as a signaling device in the first place if it is such advanced magic, and it takes so much mind power to conjure. Why not just use wand sparks?

Another thing I was thinking about that someone mentioned is whether or not a Patronus could be used against Voldemort in any way. Personally, I've always tended to believe a Patronus wouldn't do much good against Voldemort, even though it is made up of much the same positive feelings that he despises. But this has got me thinking about what grrliz said about Patronuses acting against creatures that are "put off by a positive force". Certainly Voldemort falls under this category: he is strongly repelled by love. In PS/SS, he cannot touch Harry due to the loving sacrifice of Lily. Also in OotP, Voldemort cannot possess Harry when he begins to think about being with Sirius again. So in the end, I'm still not really sure whether a Patronus would have any effect against Voldemort. Perhaps it would only momentarily stop him, but I imagine he would be able to overcome it.

[grrliz]

My first thought was that the Patronus Charm is too advanced to be taught at Hogwarts, because Lupin says many qualified wizards have trouble with it. But then I was thinking, what if it is only introduced to students who take Advanced Defense Against the Dark Arts? Since this curriculum is probably not followed by all that many students (I see it as a sort of Honors DADA class), it's possible they may be taught how to conjure a Patronus, although perhaps in a controlled setting. I think the most common application of the Patronus Charm is to ward off dementors, so I believe this would probably be how the Charm is applied to classroom learning. But I also think professors would be inclined to mention that it can be used against Lethifolds. There may also be other situations where a Patronus might be helpful that we might learn about in future books.Do you mean the "advanced" classes to be the NEWT level courses? McGonagall mentions how she only lets students into her NEWT Transfiguration class who have achieved Exceeds Expectations on their OWL, and Snape only lets "Outstanding" level students into his NEWT Potions class. My question is then: what if you don't achieve grades that high? Do you drop the course, or is there simply a regular 6th or 7th year Transfiguration or Potions class? I'm starting to see these NEWT classes as "enriched" courses with more complex curriculum, including perhaps the Patronus. (I wrote earlier (http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=1274672&postcount=12) about my other reasoning as to why I think it's taught in school; it's right at the top.)

When Harry conjures the silver wisp, the dementor is momentarily blocked, but it can then just sweep aside the feeble Patronus. The difference with a corporeal patronus is that it is able to actively charge down and attack the dementors to drive them away.I was just rereading the scene with the hundreds of Dementors down by the lake in PoA, and I think you're right:By the feeble light of his formless Patronus, he saw a Dementor halt, very close to him. It couldn't walk through the cloud of silver mist Harry had conjured. A dead, slimy hand slid out from under the cloak. It made a gesture as though to sweep the Patronus aside.

~PoA, p 281, Canadian editionI was just thinking though, if a corporeal patronus can "charge down" it's opponents, does it's effectiveness depend on the type of animal your Patronus forms as? I can't imagine Hermione's Otter Patronus "charging down" a Dementor nearly as effectively as Harry's Stag.

In regards to Dumbledore's conjuring a silvery bird as a signal, I like the idea that nickyg suggested about the accidental discovery that Patronuses repel Lethifolds. The only thing I am wondering is why one would use a Patronus as a signaling device in the first place if it is such advanced magic, and it takes so much mind power to conjure. Why not just use wand sparks?The other logical extension of the Patronus-As-Signal argument is that if not many people can conjure it in the first place, what are the odds that someone else will actually be able to recognize it for what it is and send help?

[Slither]

Both Dumbledore and Lupin are noted to have shot "silvery stuff" whilst in the threatening presence of dementors. Lupin does so on the train ride to Hogwarts at the beginning of the Prisoner of Azkaban, not because he is unable to produce a corporeal Patronus, as it is evident that he is fully capable from the lessons he later provides to Harry. It is my opinion that the emission of silvery stuff which comes from the wand is the result of an incomplete Patronus charm. Some spells work most effectively with the accompaniment of an incantation, yet a powerful wizard may also achieve a weaker form of the spell without saying a word. During the battle at the Department of Mysteries in the Order of the Phoenix, one of the Death Eaters manages to knock Hermione unconscious with a spell that might've been deadly had he been able to vocalize the incantation at the time. Therefore, I believe the silvery stuff that Dumbledore used to drive off the dementors at the Quidditch match was not evidence of his inability to produce a Patronus, as he is known as one of the greatest wizards that ever lived - it was merely a more subtle way of warding them off to avoid creating a bigger scene.

[RemusLupinFan]

I was just thinking though, if a corporeal patronus can "charge down" it's opponents, does it's effectiveness depend on the type of animal your Patronus forms as? I can't imagine Hermione's Otter Patronus "charging down" a Dementor nearly as effectively as Harry's Stag.This is certainly a valid question. Perhaps the image of physically "charging down" a dementor only refers to such animals that are capable of charging, such as stags and other large animals. However, each animal must have some means of attacking a dementor as if it was attacking something in the natural world. For example, a Patronus that takes the form of a bird would be able to fly at the dementors and use its claws and beak to attack them. Something like a bear or a lion could certainly charge demetors using claws and teeth to attack. True, some animals don't seem seem like the agressive type. Like otters, for instance: they can't fly or gallop. I don't know much about them, but, they must have some kind of natural defense mechanism that could successfully attack a dementor (although I imagine you'd be in real trouble if your Patronus was a flobberworm :p).

[Lestrange]

You know, there's this fantastic thread out there along the lines of, Can Voldemort be Fought off with a Patronus? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=17003) which has a theory about Patronuses and the lovely vivacious person who started this thread is just sitting here, bored and wouldn't mind a bit of disscusion and... :whistle:

I'd get my copy of Fantastic Beasts, but alas, it is hidden away in a plastic trunk right now along with old photographs, underwear and all the other things we don't want to lose in the hurricane. :p

Ooo, Barbara you brought up an interesting point. I wonder if the boggart can be fought off with a Patronus normally, rather than just Harry using that particular spell on it because of the form his boggart takes. Lupin I believe says that what really finishes a boggart off is laughter. And to me, happiness, positive thoughts, laughter are all in the same boat. So really, I wonder if the typical boggart could be fought off with a Patronus now; I mean, a boggart brings unhappy thoughts (fear specifically), Riddikulus, a spell created by thinking a funny thought, expells them, so then.. by that logic wouldn't a Patronus do the same?

I think I remember Hermione saying that a Patronus was beyond N.E.W.T. level (in Ootp). Or was it Madam Marsh? D.A. member?

I'm starting to think a Patronus can banish most dark creatures. Any dark creature that lives more with magic than it does with a heart, brain, and lungs.

[grrliz]

Ooo, Barbara you brought up an interesting point. I wonder if the boggart can be fought off with a Patronus normally, rather than just Harry using that particular spell on it because of the form his boggart takes. Lupin I believe says that what really finishes a boggart off is laughter. And to me, happiness, positive thoughts, laughter are all in the same boat. So really, I wonder if the typical boggart could be fought off with a Patronus now; I mean, a boggart brings unhappy thoughts (fear specifically), Riddikulus, a spell created by thinking a funny thought, expells them, so then.. by that logic wouldn't a Patronus do the same?I like that connection between the force it takes to make a boggart disappear (laughter) and the force it takes to make a Dementor disappear (happy thoughts), I hadn't really thought of it before. I was hoping there would be something more similar in the visual / hearing aspects of the two spells that might suggest they're more similar than first thought. The Riddikulus spell is accompanied by a "whip crack" sound; the Patronus Charm shoots "silvery stuff" out of one's wand. I wish they were more connected, because this theory makes a lot of sense!

But, given that both Riddikulus and the Patronus Charm would both fend off a Boggart, wouldn't it be easier to choose the less complicated charm? :)

[Angharad]

I'm no Latin expert, but if the plural of Animagus is Animagi [PoA 355 US], the plural of Patronus is probably Patroni.

In real Latin, the plural of alumnus is alumni and the plural of cactus is cacti.

I've always wondered if more than one Lexus car should be referred to as Lexi. :)

[Gryffindorgod]

Do you mean the "advanced" classes to be the NEWT level courses? McGonagall mentions how she only lets students into her NEWT Transfiguration class who have achieved Exceeds Expectations on their OWL, and Snape only lets "Outstanding" level students into his NEWT Potions class. My question is then: what if you don't achieve grades that high? Do you drop the course, or is there simply a regular 6th or 7th year Transfiguration or Potions class? I'm starting to see these NEWT classes as "enriched" courses with more complex curriculum, including perhaps the Patronus.

In Britain you take exams at 16 (OWL equivalents) and more at 18 (NEWT equivalent). To get onto an A level (18) course you need to gain a good grade in the GCSE (16). Therefore I think that if the students do not meet the required grades for a certain subject at OWL level then they cannot take the NEWT, much the same as getting a D in French GCSE would mean you wouldn't be able to take French A level.

As to the persons suggestion about sending sparks up to alert Hagrid, that worked in PS because Hagrid was looking for the sparks, in GoF he might have been preparing a lesson or bending over the fire or even asleep so would not have seen the sparks but I expect Dumbledores Patronus, or whatever it was, would have made sure it was seen, and he would have known who sent it as well- sparks can be issued by anybody and could be students playing pranks but Dumbledores phoenix arriving at your cabin is hardly going to be a joke is it?

[Bmonk]

Patronuses or Patroni for Angharad I believe if in the corporeal form are the only way to block an unforgivable curse I know there isnt supposed to be any way to shield yourself from one but Ill explain my theory.

In the MoM when DD fights LV, LV sends an AK for DD and Fawkes eats the AK. DD's patronus is a phoenix last time I checked Fawkes was a pheonix Im thinking because DD's pantronus is so powerful that when he calls his patronus it takes the shape of a real animal like fawkes and was able to take a shot of AK from LV. I know it sounds crazy but it just might work... perhaps if Harry became powerful enough his stag might be able to do the same thing for him.

[Gryffindorgod]

But Fawkes isn't Dumbledores patronus, he's a real phoenix. He ate the Aveda Kedavra which killed him but because he's a phoenix he is just reborn from the ashes. I think that if Dumbledore had conjured a patronus it wouldn't have been able to fight the Aveda Kedavra. Doesn't Lupin say it fights bad feelings or something?

[grrliz]

In Britain you take exams at 16 (OWL equivalents) and more at 18 (NEWT equivalent). To get onto an A level (18) course you need to gain a good grade in the GCSE (16). Therefore I think that if the students do not meet the required grades for a certain subject at OWL level then they cannot take the NEWT, much the same as getting a D in French GCSE would mean you wouldn't be able to take French A level. Well, I realize that, that makes perfect sense, but what I was asking was are there regular classes for those who don't meet the NEWT (or A level) requirements? Potions is obviously an important class, but what are the chances Neville is going to get into Snape's NEWT level Potions class though? Does Neville have to stop taking Potions all together, or can he just take "Potions: Sixth Year" (instead of "Potions: NEWT Level") instead?

[DragonBlk17]

I don't think that the Patronus is only for Dementors. In PoA, Harry made a Patronus but the Dementors were Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle. So I think it can affect others besides Dementors.

[Gryffindorgod]

Well, I realize that, that makes perfect sense, but what I was asking was are there regular classes for those who don't meet the NEWT (or A level) requirements? Potions is obviously an important class, but what are the chances Neville is going to get into Snape's NEWT level Potions class though? Does Neville have to stop taking Potions all together, or can he just take "Potions: Sixth Year" (instead of "Potions: NEWT Level") instead?

Nope, if you don't get in, you don't get in. There are no other classes. All 6th year classes are NEWT classes, you only study the subjects you are going to take exams in (and generally those you think you will pass!!)

[ramones]

You know, there's this fantastic thread out there along the lines of, Can Voldemort be Fought off with a Patronus? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=17003) which has a theory about Patronuses and the lovely vivacious person who started this thread is just sitting here, bored and wouldn't mind a bit of disscusion and... :whistle:
Every time I come up with an idea that I consider original, I find out that it is not at all original and there is already a thread!! :upset: :upset:

I think that DD didn't conjure a Patronus because his silver stuff was enough to drive them out of the field.
And I also agree with atherella: JK didn't want us to know what form DD's Patronus took.
On the Hogwarts express Lupin didn't conjure a corporal Patronus either, maybe JK thought it was took soon to introduce it.

It would be great to see LV run down by a Patronus. Actually since Harry's patronus takes the form of his father's animagus form could there be some extra power in it that could be used against LV? Just asking, because after all James also died trying to save Harry
Wow, never thought of this! If you don't mind, I'll post this in another thread!