The Apocalypse

[joel is cheese]

For Christians, the Apocalypse may be something to look forward to.I know for sure that I don't look forward to it, because of all the people that will die, but I do know that I will finally get to live in heaven with my Father then. This topic may become a little too debate-oriented concerning different religions and denominations, but I want to know more about it. I am particularly asking HogwartsChaplain and PastorPotterbecause I belive they have had some seminary experience and know a little bit more on the subject. I know that I should go to Revelation to find out more, but it is quite a hard book to read. Some questions:

Who will be 'rescued?' (Christians and babies?)

How will it happen? (i.e. will all the Christians just mysteriously 'disappear' as in the book Left Behind, which got me interested in the apocalypse, or will we leave in some other fashion?)

Will those left behind be given a second chance?

What are the signs?

I know these are hard questions to answer (especially since John saw the vision a long time ago, and the world was different then than it will be during the Apocalypse, I mean, when talking about a dragon or something, flying in the air, John could have simply meant an airplane, that's the only words he could use to describe them) but I want to know the general consensus. Do most theologians believe and agree on certain signs of the apocalypse (of course, no one knows but God when it will happen)? I'm so curious about it, is all.

[Pilum]

Well, I'm not qualified, but from my experience as a Catholic who veers widely between practicing and lapsed (sometimes in the same week! :D):

Saved: Believers only. Probably not to include all of you dirty prod heretics. ;)

How will it happen? Ask the big fella in the sky. Don't know where the Rapture thing comes from, seems to be a Yank evangelical notion, elevated to an article of faith 'over there'. Could be wrong. (and incidentally, quite worried that we currently have people in power with their fingers on The Button who would quite like to see Armageddon.... :scared:)

Second chance? No.

Signs? I understand a wild-eyed chap called John staggered in from the desert one day thinking he'd got them all...

[Midnightsfire]

Not certain if this thread is a good idea...

According to Revelations 14:3-4 only a 144,000 males will be given the mark....

*shrugs* I will refrain from going further..

[Sherlock Holmes]

Just about every Christian sect or denomination has their own unique version of what the end times will be like, and some Christians disagree very strongly over what will happen. I'd like to remind everyone that the Spirit Division is not a debate forum, so please state what you believe and your reasons for doing so, and feel free to discuss differences, but debate (i.e., attempting to prove that someone else's view of the end times is wrong or a misinterpretation of Scripture) should not be engaged in.

Now, in my opinion, the question about the end of time is rather academic. I know that God knows what will happen, but it's not important that He tell me what, or when, or how. Revelation offers some hints, but as joel said, it's hard to understand. Some Christians believe it refers to the end of all time, others that it refers only to the destruction of the Roman Empire. There are valid reasons for believing both.

My conclusion, at the end of the day, is that it really doesn't matter what I believe about how the earth will end. God knows, and my opinion may be right or it may be wrong: He'll do things in His own way and in His own time, without consulting me. Whether there's a Rapture or not, or an Armageddon or not, is out of my control. It's my opinion that Christians shouldn't worry much about the end of time, as our responsibility is the same: to be followers of Christ and do what is right.

[daniel4hp]

I don't think Revelation should be taken too literally. I don't pretend to know what it is supposed to mean, although I have heard several different interpretations. I do not believe in the Rapture or anything associated with it. In the end, though, I don't think it is terribly important. As Sherlock Holmes said, we should seek to live our lives the best we can, regardless of what the "apocalypse" will be like.

Some views on Revelation, taken from here (http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_ntb5b.htm)...
Allegorical Approach. According to this, Revelation is meant to be taken symbolically or figuratively, not literally.
Historic Approach. This states that most of the events in Revelation have already happened, such as during the Roman persecution of Christians.
Futuristic Approach. The events of Revelation will happen in the presumably reletively near future.

[Tane]

The end of the world, that to me will be when our sun begins to die and expands to engulf us all in fire and brimstone as a red giant. All the signs coming up to that event are probably covered in the Revelations.

Edit:Before all this happens we will probably have to find a new Earth or accept our fate in the evolution of things.

[Selmo]

The end of the world for me could come this afternoon in a road traffic accident or at anytime within the next 25 years from disease or old age.
I think that it's unlikely that I will have to endure the events descibed in The Revelation of St John, even if they are litteral, not symbolic.

Either way, I'll have to stand in judgement before God. I hope I'm ready.

Signs? Jesus is recorded as saying that the End will come unexpectedly, "like a thief in the night".
Don't waste your time looking for signs, just be prepared.

[Spike]

As said previously the end of the world for you can happen at any moment. What you should concern yourself with is finding what you believe to be true and living that way as best as you can.

My problem with Hell Fire conversions of any religion is that you are trying to scare people into converting. Fear is never conducive to love and trust. Nothing wrong with fearing God if you think he exists. Someone with that power deserves a little awe and fear. However attempting to mold and shape your life based on fear will never work.

Revelations is a book like most others in the bible. If you believe that the author was shown things by God then you must allow that John's mind couldn't possibly concede of Fighter jets and nuclear weapons etc etc. So his descriptions were based on what he knew. Now what is metaphor and what is literal is hotly contested by theologians. But what I would encourage all to do is look the world over. Scan every belief. Dissect them and see what fits you. For surely the truth does not fear competition. If it's true it has nothing to worry about.

[daniel4hp]

Revelations is a book like most others in the bible. If you believe that the author was shown things by God then you must allow that John's mind couldn't possibly concede of Fighter jets and nuclear weapons etc etc. So his descriptions were based on what he knew.
Following this (quite reasonable) line of reasoning, the things described in Revelation could be anything. John didn't know about fighter jets; he likewise didn't know about who-knows-what weapons that may be invented 200 years from now. How are we to say that the things in Revelation don't refer to those?

Essentially, if you hold to the argument that John was describing what he saw in terms of what he knew, you are left with only one option: since we do not know everything that will ever be invented, we are in only a marginally better spot than John, and it is impossible for us to know exactly what he was describing.

[Spike]

Following this (quite reasonable) line of reasoning, the things described in Revelation could be anything. John didn't know about fighter jets; he likewise didn't know about who-knows-what weapons that may be invented 200 years from now. How are we to say that the things in Revelation don't refer to those?

Essentially, if you hold to the argument that John was describing what he saw in terms of what he knew, you are left with only one option: since we do not know everything that will ever be invented, we are in only a marginally better spot than John, and it is impossible for us to know exactly what he was describing.


Correct sir.


What you will hear from some people that study the Bible is that Israel's statehood is what makes Revelations so important now. That the moment Israel became a state again and the Jews were a nation again is when the prophetic clock began to tick again.

Indeed the truly amazing thing about the Bible is the miracle of the Jewish people. They have maintained an identity just as predicted while all of their peers faded into the wind. The fact that they regained statehood in their biblical homeland is staggering.

Although I would say again that I don't know when the end is or if there is an end to the world. I don't know what Revelations means definitively. I only know what it means to me.

[Pilum]

On the subject of what exactly did John see, I remember reading a few years ago the somewhat tongue in cheek suggestion that the more apocalyptic visions of Nostradamus, John and countless others could be explained by the Prophetic Eye wandering into a cinema, seeing Star Wars and taking it as fact! :D

Tane, from what I remember from astronomy, you don't have to worry for about 5 billion years or so. I don't think we'll be in a position to care by then, though the descriptions of what will happen are rather horrific. On a cosmic scale, of course.

Spike, I fear that people who take Revelations as literal fact and look forward to the end of the world and the Second Coming will one day be the people who have to take decisions about activities in the Middle East and how to handle them..... oh.

[GryffondorGrl]

Who will be 'rescued?' (Christians and babies?)
I think that anyone who has accepted Jesus Christ as Lord. Also, babies and children too young to know, or those who have never heard God's message who may be older.

How will it happen? (i.e. will all the Christians just mysteriously 'disappear' as in the book Left Behind, which got me interested in the apocalypse, or will we leave in some other fashion?)
I'm not sure if we'll dissapear, but it'll be a split-second thing, like it'll happen all at once and we'll be gone. I dunno how that could happen without us dissapearing, but maybe there'd be a huge fire on earth and after the fire all the Christians will be gone, but I think dissapearing woud be cool.

Will those left behind be given a second chance?
Yes, I think they would because the point of the Apocalypse is to catch the attentiosn of those left behind and what's the point of catching their attention if they are not able to be saved?

What are the signs?
There will be a lot of sin in the world before it happens. Very much, but people won't realize that it's coming, not even Christians. There will be some war with Russia and Israel too, maybe.