Why do people turn from God when something 'bad' happens?

[marylovesharry]

I know there is a thread going around on 'why doesn't God prevent suffering' but that's not what I am addressing here. What I want to know is why do people turn from God when soemthing bad happens to them?

I am a very strong Christian, I was not born into church never attended church until my sophomore year in highschool at which tim I turned my life over to the Lord. Since them I have had some pretty heavy stuff happen to me and I have yet to turn from God. In fact, when bad stuff happens to me I turn to him. In the past year I have had 12 people die. From August of 2003 to August of 2o04, 12 people have died and I'm talking young people mostly. I don't think I could have made it without the Lord, and here's exactly what happened.

1. August 14th (1st day of my senior year) my friend Eric was hit by a car while ridding his motorcylce and died, he was 2 years older then me.
2. August 22nd one of my closest friends had an anurism (basically a blood vessle in her brain exploded) and died in her shower immediately.
3. October 24th my friend Jack was at a party in the 'bad neighborhood' was shot and killed.
4. December 25th (Christmas Day) my friend Dylan was in Costa Rica starting up a missinary training school, got run over by a car and died.
5. January 7th my friend Brant dies from a battle with Lukemia, he was a year older then me.
6. January 18th Andrew a boy I knew in middle school but didn't go to my higschool was hunting with his dad, his dad accidently shot and killed him.
7. February 10th Addison, a boy from my school, was hit by a car and died.
8. February 29th my friend Elizabeth's mom died from a long battle with breat cancer.
9. March 15th my aunt had a miscarriage and lost her baby.
10. April 8th my old youth pastor from when I was in middle school Rick committed suicide (shot himself)
11. April 26th my friend Holly's grandfather (whom riased her) had a heart attack.
12. May 8th Angela, a girl I knew in 9th grade committed suicide (flung heself off a sky scraper down town).

Then Septermber 1st my friend Dustin died from batteling a disease for a long time. I didn't include him in the 12 b/c he died after the year was over. So, that right there is a lot of tragedie and I am definitely a changed person, however God is the only reason I got through any of it. I cried, and screamed, and prayed and God was there for me when other people couldn't be.
So, I know this is really long but I really honestly want to know why people turn from him. I mean, he has given us SO much, and yet one thing goes wrong and people flee. I don't understand.

[Dementor Dave]

An excellent post and an intriguing topic. I do believe it belongs here though. The Spirit Division (http://www.cosforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=53)

[Sherlock Holmes]

I'll move it to the Spirit Division. If people would like to debate the topic, say so, and I'll move it into the DoIMC.

[Wab]

Give me a concrete reason why God would let bad things happen to people who put their faith in Him?

Not the ineffability of the Lord. Not Him moving in mysterious ways. Not we'll find out when we're dead.

Give me one good reason why a benevolent and omnipotent deity would choose to kick the faithful in the guts.

And, please, no test of faith.

[Azimuth]

I know there is a thread going around on 'why doesn't God prevent suffering' but that's not what I am addressing here. What I want to know is why do people turn from God when soemthing bad happens to them?

I am a very strong Christian, I was not born into church never attended church until my sophomore year in highschool at which tim I turned my life over to the Lord. Since them I have had some pretty heavy stuff happen to me and I have yet to turn from God. In fact, when bad stuff happens to me I turn to him. In the past year I have had 12 people die. From August of 2003 to August of 2o04, 12 people have died and I'm talking young people mostly. I don't think I could have made it without the Lord, and here's exactly what happened.

1. August 14th (1st day of my senior year) my friend Eric was hit by a car while ridding his motorcylce and died, he was 2 years older then me.
2. August 22nd one of my closest friends had an anurism (basically a blood vessle in her brain exploded) and died in her shower immediately.
3. October 24th my friend Jack was at a party in the 'bad neighborhood' was shot and killed.
4. December 25th (Christmas Day) my friend Dylan was in Costa Rica starting up a missinary training school, got run over by a car and died.
5. January 7th my friend Brant dies from a battle with Lukemia, he was a year older then me.
6. January 18th Andrew a boy I knew in middle school but didn't go to my higschool was hunting with his dad, his dad accidently shot and killed him.
7. February 10th Addison, a boy from my school, was hit by a car and died.
8. February 29th my friend Elizabeth's mom died from a long battle with breat cancer.
9. March 15th my aunt had a miscarriage and lost her baby.
10. April 8th my old youth pastor from when I was in middle school Rick committed suicide (shot himself)
11. April 26th my friend Holly's grandfather (whom riased her) had a heart attack.
12. May 8th Angela, a girl I knew in 9th grade committed suicide (flung heself off a sky scraper down town).

Then Septermber 1st my friend Dustin died from batteling a disease for a long time. I didn't include him in the 12 b/c he died after the year was over. So, that right there is a lot of tragedie and I am definitely a changed person, however God is the only reason I got through any of it. I cried, and screamed, and prayed and God was there for me when other people couldn't be.
So, I know this is really long but I really honestly want to know why people turn from him. I mean, he has given us SO much, and yet one thing goes wrong and people flee. I don't understand.
If God's so loving and caring, why did he create the Universe in such a way that would make all of those things happen? He's omniscient, which means that he knew what would be going on in the year 2004 when he was creating the Universe, which means that the exact way he made the Universe means that everything that happens, everywhere, was caused by him. Why would he want to do that?

[marylovesharry]

If God's so loving and caring, why did he create the Universe in such a way that would make all of those things happen? He's omniscient, which means that he knew what would be going on in the year 2004 when he was creating the Universe, which means that the exact way he made the Universe means that everything that happens, everywhere, was caused by him. Why would he want to do that?

If there was no suffering or pain, then there would be no need for God. It's like you only go to the doctor when you're sick. If you're feeling perfectly well you don't say, 'I should go to the hospital'. I belive it's the same thing with God. When things are going great no one calls on the Lord except those who are thankful. I mean, no one would be thankful for anything.
I suppose you have to have endured what I have to understand how truly faithful the Lord is. He will never leave me or forsake me and never give me more then I can't handle. I mean, without pain or suffering no one would grow or mature.

however, my question is not wehter you belive in Him or not, it's why do you turn from Him? I mean, if you belive for years when things are great, why when one traumatic experience happens do you say he doesn't exist??

[Mundungus Fletc]

It works both ways. Some Christians (I speak from my own perspective) turn from God when things go bad. As to why, I wonder whether their faith was more social than religious - they seem to believe that God should intervene to stop bad things happening. There are discussions elsewhere on why this doesn't happen (we wouldn't be human if he did.)

Other people turn to God when they are in trouble - "There are no atheists in a lifeboat." Or as I much prefer like W C Fields a very funny man and noted atheist. As he was dying a friend visited and saw he was reading the bible. "Just looking for loopholes," was WCs comment

[Picko]

Probably because if you are no better or worse by believing in God why would you bother to put in the effort? Mainly this happens because once you begin to question it's tough to believe. Realistically if God is what he's meant to be it should afterall be impossible to question his existence.

[marylovesharry]

yeah, I know it works both ways that some turn from him and some turn to him. I turned to him when bad things happened to me, it just puzzles me that some people would turn away. I guess if you were raised believeing in a 'fair and loving' God then you would expect him to be only 'fair and loving' and when he's not you assume he doesn't really love me. But God punishes us just like a father punishes his child, not just because he feels like it but for the child's own good.

[Mundungus Fletc]

Probably because if you are no better or worse by believing in God why would you bother to put in the effort? Mainly this happens because once you begin to question it's tough to believe

In your experience not in mine. As a believer I continually question my belief - difficult not to when non-believers jump into every religious discussion. But in my case doubts strengthen my faith not weaken it.

Realistically if God is what he's meant to be it should afterall be impossible to question his existence.

Only if we are made to be automata

[Picko]

Only if we are made to be automata

What I perhaps meant to say was that if God is perfect and everything else that is claimed then it should be utterly impossible to find flaw or reason to question his existence.

That even one person believes there is possible flaws in God's possible existence or even can question it brings his very existence into disrepute.

[Mundungus Fletc]

That even one person believes there is possible flaws in God's possible existence or even can question it brings his very existence into disrepute.

It is we who are flawed (because we are human and have free will - including the freedom to doubt his existence) not God. He could have made us perfect but then as I said we would be inhuman robots

[thethirdman]

Give me a concrete reason why God would let bad things happen to people who put their faith in Him?

Not the ineffability of the Lord. Not Him moving in mysterious ways. Not we'll find out when we're dead.

Give me one good reason why a benevolent and omnipotent deity would choose to kick the faithful in the guts.

And, please, no test of faith.

Here's my theory. God is bound by the nature it created. Once god set things in motion it forfeited it's ablity to do anything more than sway nature. Even then, god is limited. Although we are more limited than god. I like to think that god suffers with us because it wants to change everything to prevent our suffering but knows it can't. That's my take on it. Like you I couldn't stomach the idea that god would allow devout followers to suffer. After some searching, I hit on that theory.

[Spirit]

I believe that people turn away from God when something goes wrong is because they feel that, since their problems have not been fixed and their prays have not been answered, that he must not exist. That's just... all I have to say.

[Amina]

i suppose it depends on how you believe in God, whether you believe that he is able to take a direct involvement in Human life, or if you consider him to only be the 'Creator', and simply an observer of life on earth.

What it comes down to, i think, is that when something terrible happens, humans often need 'closure'. Grief is a terrible emotion to deal with - trying to understand why someone must kill, or why an unexpected heart attack must occur, is something beyond our comprehension. We are logical beings, and we persue our lives in constant search of answers. Random acts of violence, or natural disasters are things that we cannot adequetely explain or understand, and thus we turn to an Omnipresent being who MUST be responsible. SOMEONE must be responsible.

People do, after all, thank God when something GOOD happens, so by the same token, they blame him when something bad happens. If you believe God is intrinsically responsible for every thing that occurs on earth, then blame falls naturally to Him, whether or not it is justified.

Did any of that actually make any sense?

[busy91]

Marylovesharry I'm so sorry to hear about all of your losses, and it is great that you find comfort in God. Some people blame God for all the bad things that happen to their lives. They feel he is in control of what happens down here. They have no one to blame, so they blame God. I know how it feels to lose people when young, when I was your age, I lost a lot of people within a one year period.

I think it is all in the way you are brought up. But just like you turned to God some turn away, people do things for different reasons. I do not believe in God, although I used to be Catholic, but my turn was not because anything bad happened, it was an epiphany I had.

I feel whatever keeps you safe and sane is the right path. God or no God. We are not cookie cut people, and sometimes anger drives us, and sometimes faith guides us.

Edit: To add to this, I would also like to point out while some people do turn from God when bad things happen, there are countless others who turn to him.

[Sirius83]

When something bad happens, some people simply need something to hold on to; some hope that in spite of all the gloom, some sort of divine intervention will make things better. As such, they turn to God.

However, just as easily - particuarly of one has doubts residing somewhere, then people feel as though God has abandoned them, or that the doubts are true, he doesn't exist.

I believe it has to do with, as I said on another thread, people today are looking for more scientific and logical explanations for the world we live in rather than divine explanations. This casts doubt in peoples minds regarding religion and God, and as a result something bad happening when they needed God most is the trigger to make them turn away. The world just doesn't rely on faith so much anymore as logical explanations.

[marylovesharry]

I believe it has to do with, as I said on another thread, people today are looking for more scientific and logical explanations for the world we live in rather than divine explanations. This casts doubt in peoples minds regarding religion and God, and as a result something bad happening when they needed God most is the trigger to make them turn away. The world just doesn't rely on faith so much anymore as logical explanations.

I suppose this makes a lot of sense. People today definitely need things to be explained and have proof before they just believe in anything. This is why I also don't understand people who believe in the THEORY of evolution (where we evolved from one microscopis organism). I bolded theory because it is just that, a theory, and some people think that it is a fact because it is taught in our culture instead of teaching about Christianity. While I know this is off subject, if you believe in evolution, I would love to know why exactly. As, being a Christian I am fully for creation.

I guess blaming God is the main reason people turn from Him. I guess they assume he has to intervene in our lives and 'save us' from pain and suffering. I don't see it that way. God is Holy, and loving, and he knows all and we can't see the future like He can so how do we know that he doesn't have soemthing great planned for us if we just believe in Him?

I had a very hard time dealing with Mindey's death after she died, but I kept my faith and I studied the Bible and really grew with the Lord. I went on a retreat with my church in November and I met my current boyfriend there and we have a great relationship, he is a wonderful guy. Now, I'm not saying that I would trade my boyfriend for Mindey if I had the choice, no way, but something good came out of my faithfulness to the Lord. If you really trust in Him (and God knows your heart and wether you just say you trust him or you really do), He will provide.

[jellyjames]

Humans are weak. And we never like to point to ourselves when something bad happens. It is always somebody else's fault, never ours. Point, point, point. And who is best to point to? God. Because He can't argue back *technically*.
I believe eveything happens for a reason. We may see somethings as bad but we don't know what will happen in the long run. God never let things happen randomly. Each event that happens in your life serves a purpose. I want to share a personal example. My late grandmother suffered a stroke and was left partially paralysed for 7 years before she passed away. During her illness, my uncles and aunts bickered incessantly over who should take care of her. My family took her and my other relatives quicly severed ties with us for fear that they would be ask to help financially. We were bitter and upset not because we needed finacial help but mainly because we couldn't believe her other children would abandon my grandmother and call her a nuisance. For years we were ostracized and suffered the financial strain but now when I look back, I realise that those hard years helped to bind my family closer together and my brothers and I know we would never let our parents suffer the same fate. Right now we are bickering over who should our parents stay with when we get married. No one wants to 'surrender the custody' :). My point is, bad things happen for a reason, and it will always turn out well in the end.

[Wab]

yeah, I know it works both ways that some turn from him and some turn to him. I turned to him when bad things happened to me, it just puzzles me that some people would turn away. I guess if you were raised believeing in a 'fair and loving' God then you would expect him to be only 'fair and loving' and when he's not you assume he doesn't really love me. But God punishes us just like a father punishes his child, not just because he feels like it but for the child's own good.

How can being hideously mangled in a car accident possibly be for anyone's "own good".

Try that line in a spinal injuries ward (or any high-depency, terminal or trauma ward) and you'd be in for a kicking.

[thethirdman]

yeah, I know it works both ways that some turn from him and some turn to him. I turned to him when bad things happened to me, it just puzzles me that some people would turn away. I guess if you were raised believeing in a 'fair and loving' God then you would expect him to be only 'fair and loving' and when he's not you assume he doesn't really love me. But God punishes us just like a father punishes his child, not just because he feels like it but for the child's own good.

What about Job? One of god's most loyal servents lost everything. What that for Job's own good? Was he being punished? If than either Job was rotten or god is just cruel and uncaring. Neither of those sound to appealing to me. Therefore, like theologian Harold Kushner, I find that god is compassionate and caring. God's just slightly less helpless than it's people.

[auror]

yeah, I know it works both ways that some turn from him and some turn to him. I turned to him when bad things happened to me, it just puzzles me that some people would turn away
When bad things happen in life, you learn to cope with them. “How you cope” determines if you turn to or turn from God. When people are coping with bad things, they usually become stronger. So the question is “where does this strength (which makes you stronger) come from?” Sometimes the source is friends, sometimes family, sometimes God and sometimes people learn to be sufficient for themselves. If some terrible things happen and I can get over them by myself, will I need a strong figure I can lean on? I probably wouldn’t because my experience would’ve made me realize “the strength to deal with life resides within me” in other words it would make me “turn from God”. Some people find this strength from God; they believe as long as they pray, everything will turn out fine. Turning to God, is like turning to hope or leaning to a strong figure which makes you feel secure. Either as your strength increases or as things start to turn out fine, you become more attached to God.

[LuvHP_001]

Well,it's probably because they think that god is supposed to do only good things and that they feel betrayed and lied to. People can't understand the reasoning behind some bad things done. Sometimes I'm one of those people,but EVERYONE at some point in time is loses hope.

[Sirius83]

marylovesharry: In regards to your question about evolution, evolution is both a theory and a fact...see this article for more information:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html

For that matter, you may be interested in looking through the entire www.talkorigins.org site. In any case, the thing is evolution is a lot more believable and supportable than creation.

On the one hand, you have chemical reactions that happen in the correct sequence under the correct conditions, creating the first basic life which over time adapts and evolves to its environment. While it sounds unlikely, and it probably is, given the scale of the Universe it's also impossible to think it never happens. In fact, I am positive life exists elsewhere in the Universe simply because while rare in occurance, such an "ideal reaction" to spark off life should have happened many, many times over throughout the vast expanses of the Universe.

On the other hand, you have a divine, supreme being who made life appear just like that, poof. This of course not taking into consideration the origins of this supreme being in the first place. However, that's for another thread so I won't go into any more detail. I just thought I'd answer your question...if we are to get further into the topic we should probably locate the appropriate thread for it. :)

[~Tonks~]

This is why I also don't understand people who believe in the THEORY of evolution (where we evolved from one microscopis organism). I bolded theory because it is just that, a theory, and some people think that it is a fact because it is taught in our culture instead of teaching about Christianity. While I know this is off subject, if you believe in evolution, I would love to know why exactly. As, being a Christian I am fully for creation.

1. There are Christians who "believe" in evolution. So it's not strictly a non-Christian idea. Plenty of religious minded, faithful people adhere to the idea.

2. The word "theory" doesn't discredit the validity of something. The phrase "it's just a theory” is often used to dismiss a scientific concept as one without merit. However, saying that an idea is a “theory” implies that it has survived the scrutiny of the scientific method, meaning that the theory is consistent with observation to date.

3. The teaching of Christianity is to be done in a church. It would be wrong to teach Christianity in schools outside of a strictly objective, historically-theocratic sense in connection with a world history or world cultures class, unless it was a private, church funded institution. Public schools should not teach any faith because it will alienate anyone who is not of that faith and it would discriminate against other beliefs.

4. See what Sirius83 said.

[katiekake]

I suppose this makes a lot of sense. People today definitely need things to be explained and have proof before they just believe in anything. This is why I also don't understand people who believe in the THEORY of evolution (where we evolved from one microscopis organism). I bolded theory because it is just that, a theory, and some people think that it is a fact because it is taught in our culture instead of teaching about Christianity. While I know this is off subject, if you believe in evolution, I would love to know why exactly. As, being a Christian I am fully for creation.

"Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night." -Issac Asimov

A scientific theory has, in fact, undergone much testing and scrutinizing. I for one believe that evolution fits quite nicely with God. Why do we assume that one day on Earth is equal to one day for God, especially when one "day" is different for every planet in the solar system (they do not all revolve at the same rate). Besides that, Darwinism (survival of the fittest) is not the end all, be all of evolution. There are other theories about the ways that species evolve, namely through cooperation. It's an expanding field. The reason that evolution continues to be a theory is because until we can jump into a time machine and actually see evolution happening, we are looking at evidence that could go in a number of directions.

[marylovesharry]

1. There are Christians who "believe" in evolution. So it's not strictly a non-Christian idea. Plenty of religious minded, faithful people adhere to the idea.

2. The word "theory" doesn't discredit the validity of something. The phrase "it's just a theory” is often used to dismiss a scientific concept as one without merit. However, saying that an idea is a “theory” implies that it has survived the scrutiny of the scientific method, meaning that the theory is consistent with observation to date.

3. The teaching of Christianity is to be done in a church. It would be wrong to teach Christianity in schools outside of a strictly objective, historically-theocratic sense in connection with a world history or world cultures class, unless it was a private, church funded institution. Public schools should not teach any faith because it will alienate anyone who is not of that faith and it would discriminate against other beliefs.

4. See what Sirius83 said.

1. I believe that things evolve. I however do not believe that we all evolved from one microscopic organism. There is a huge difference. If you are a true Christian, then you cannot possibly believe in the theory of evolution. It goes against what the Bible says and I don't know if I said it in here or not but you cannot believe in parts of the Bible, it's all or none.

2. I am not trying to discredit the theory of evolution by saying it is a theory. Yes, I realize a lot of research and all that went into the theory, what I am saying is that it is not a fact. It is not a proven, undisputable fact, it's a theory, it's can't be proven yet people treat it as though it is absolute truth and it's not.

3.When I said it isn't taught in our culture I specifially stayed away from the word 'school'. I did not say it should be taught in schools for a reason, I don't think it should be. I believe everyone is entitled to think whatever he/she wants and he/she shouldn't have to be subjected to learning about Christianity in school if he/she doesn't want to. What I am saying is that there aren't as many people who belive these days as there used to be and the I don't belive the Christian morals are being upheld in our culture, nor are they being taught. I know this isn't the case for everyone. I myself grew up in a non-christian home and have christian morals, but that is because both of my parents parents were church-goers (not true Christians) and they raised my parents with Christian morals and they passed those morals onto my siblings and myself.

"Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night." -Issac Asimov

A scientific theory has, in fact, undergone much testing and scrutinizing. I for one believe that evolution fits quite nicely with God. Why do we assume that one day on Earth is equal to one day for God, especially when one "day" is different for every planet in the solar system (they do not all revolve at the same rate). Besides that, Darwinism (survival of the fittest) is not the end all, be all of evolution. There are other theories about the ways that species evolve, namely through cooperation. It's an expanding field. The reason that evolution continues to be a theory is because until we can jump into a time machine and actually see evolution happening, we are looking at evidence that could go in a number of directions.

I do not assume that one day on earth is the same to God, in fact I don't think it is at all. One day for God could be a million years to us, no one knows for sure.

I want to clairfy, evolution and the theory of evolution are two seperate things. It is proven that species can evolve, however the theory of evolution is the idea that everything on earth evolved from one organism instead of being created my God.

[~Tonks~]

1. I believe that things evolve. I however do not believe that we all evolved from one microscopic organism. There is a huge difference. If you are a true Christian, then you cannot possibly believe in the theory of evolution. It goes against what the Bible says and I don't know if I said it in here or not but you cannot believe in parts of the Bible, it's all or none.

I think a lot of people would beg to differ on what a true Christian is, and whether or not you have the say in who is and who isn't one. Not all Christians take the Bible literally in that God scoooped up dirt from the earth, made Adam, and then fashioned Eve from his rib. In fact I would say by and by, more Christians actually do not take the Bible in a literal sense, since they understand that it was written over 2,000 years ago by simple people who didn't have 1/1,000,000th the knowledge about the world as we do now. Even if you believe God told those people what to write, isn't it possible that God, in his infinite wisdom and knowledge, knew that such a complex concept as evolution would completely blow their minds, and therefore told them how it happened in simpler terms? After all, supposedly if evolution ends up being a hard core, established fact, then everything would have had to come from the same source - the earth. And that is in fact where Adam and Eve came from if you interpret the Bible literally, is it not?


3.When I said it isn't taught in our culture I specifially stayed away from the word 'school'. I did not say it should be taught in schools for a reason, I don't think it should be. I believe everyone is entitled to think whatever he/she wants and he/she shouldn't have to be subjected to learning about Christianity in school if he/she doesn't want to. What I am saying is that there aren't as many people who belive these days as there used to be and the I don't belive the Christian morals are being upheld in our culture, nor are they being taught. I know this isn't the case for everyone. I myself grew up in a non-christian home and have christian morals, but that is because both of my parents parents were church-goers (not true Christians) and they raised my parents with Christian morals and they passed those morals onto my siblings and myself.

The term "Christian morals" is ambigious, in that such tenets as do not murder, do not rape, do not steal, etc. are not exclusively Christian. They existed in other societies and in other doctines of law long before Christianity ever came about. As for things such as abstinence before marriage, the sanctity of life, the sanctitiy of marriage, etc. not even Christians agree on those things amongst themselves. If they did there wouldn't be thousands of different sects of Christianity.


I want to clairfy, evolution and the theory of evolution are two seperate things. It is proven that species can evolve, however the theory of evolution is the idea that everything on earth evolved from one organism instead of being created my God.

I really think you should check out that link sirius83 sent you, since this isn't exactly what evolution entails.

[Wab]

If you are a true Christian, then you cannot possibly believe in the theory of evolution. It goes against what the Bible says and I don't know if I said it in here or not but you cannot believe in parts of the Bible, it's all or none.


You can't be one of a small band of Christian Churches that are Biblical literalists. Many Christian faiths (including Cathlolic and Anglican) do not take the Bible literally.

[marylovesharry]

The point of this thread was not to debate the theory of evolution and I am sorry that I ever brought it in here. No matter what I say, someone will argue with me so I am not going to try anyore. I cannot make you believe what I do and I am not trying to.

However, I would like from someone who has experienced tragedy and turned from God, to explain to me why they did. It would really help me to understand some people who have been with me through this past year and lost all of the people I did and turned from God while I remained in my faith. They will not talk to me about it and so, I would like to understand so I can help them if they need my help.

[aggroskater]

im often hearing about stuff like "oh, why would god let such bad things happen!". I dont see why this is as big a deal as it is. In my eyes, its quite simple.

1.) Pain and suffering bring you closer to god.

2.) The consequences of bad actions teaches you lessons you need to know.

3.) God gave man free agency. The right to chose your beliefs and do as you want, even if it is wrong. He gave man the capability to do as he pleased, and to learn from his own foolish actions, thus deepening his understanding of the world, religion, and basic ideals. What goes on in the world has nothing to do with what gods hand is doing. He has the capability to control all, but does not, because of free agency. What goes on in the world is the direct effect of what his creations decide to do with their rights. God is a guide, not a dictator. He lets you choose what you want to believe.


Well, those are my thoughts. Have at em!

ETA:

As for why people turn from God:

Often times, people land themselves in sticky situations from their choices that god has allowed them to make. They end up having nobody to blame, nobody to point the finger at and say it was their fault. The only people they can blame are themselves, and God. Many chose not to examine themselves, as they are too proud to. They believe that they are in the right. So when things go wrong, and there is no one to blame, they point their fingers upward.

They ask him the very question lots of people here ask: "Why did you allow this to happen?". Consequently, they say that it is Gods fault, and as a result, they refuse to listen to him. The voices of righteousness become fainter and fainter, until the only thing that can save that person is another person. They become too wrapped up in their own foolish pride or their own belief system.

And they can do as they please, they can point the finger at god if they want to, but it was god that gave you the freedom of choice. You made the choice, not him.

[Wab]

You made the choice, not him.

Very well, get yourself down to the nearest cancer ward or spinal injuries rehad centre and tell the patients that they chose their predicaments.

Hell, if people choose their fate let's leave accident victims bleeding to death in a ditch because it was their choice.

[busy91]

Very well, get yourself down to the nearest cancer ward or spinal injuries rehad centre and tell the patients that they chose their predicaments.

Hell, if people choose their fate let's leave accident victims bleeding to death in a ditch because it was their choice.


There is a belief, which I am familiar with that says we choose our paths before we come here. We choose our family, lifestyle and our bad/good predicaments. So Yes, the people who have cancer and other diseases choose this for their growth in the large scheme.

I do believe this. I also believe in reincarnation so one belief flows into the other.

The belief says that we do not remember we decided all this before we re-entered this world. We forget in order to grow from our situations.

I've had this argument countless times. No one wants to believe that they would choose to have a horrible life, but our spirit makes the choice not our ego.

And on the note about going to a cancer ward/spinal cord injuries etc...I wouldn't need to do that myself.

[aggroskater]

hehe, funnily enough, i do go to a rehab center. I go to would care and physical therapy every day.

Anyway, god does not intend for everyone to die from bleeding in a ditch. As for people born with disabilities, or people with cancer, etc, this could be a gift from god in the long run. You just have to be willing to stick it out. You could fight cancer for 5 years to find out that it has made you a better person. Hardships like these help shape people into good people. They come out on top, or, their illnesses and deaths help along the others they left behind. Death is but the next great adventure, it is a release into an eternal life of paradise. Death maybe sad, painful, etc, but one good thing does come from it: they live in a much better, more pure world than us.

These are simply my reasons. I cannot contemplate the entirety of gods plans for humanity, nor how he would do so, because i am not god. The key point is that there is good in everything if you are willing to look for it.

ETA:

Or, as the person above me stated, you could have chosen your path. Both are good arguments in my opinion.

[busy91]

hehe, funnily enough, i do go to a rehab center. I go to would care and physical therapy every day.

Anyway, god does not intend for everyone to die from bleeding in a ditch. As for people born with disabilities, or people with cancer, etc, this could be a gift from god in the long run. You just have to be willing to stick it out. You could fight cancer for 5 years to find out that it has made you a better person. Hardships like these help shape people into good people. They come out on top, or, their illnesses and deaths help along the others they left behind. Death is but the next great adventure, it is a release into an eternal life of paradise. Death maybe sad, painful, etc, but one good thing does come from it: they live in a much better, more pure world than us.

These are simply my reasons. I cannot contemplate the entirety of gods plans for humanity, nor how he would do so, because i am not god. The key point is that there is good in everything if you are willing to look for it.

ETA:

Or, as the person above me stated, you could have chosen your path. Both are good arguments in my opinion.

What I find most odd is that people who are sick and have disabilites are the ones who are more comfortable with this thought. It is the ones who are healthy that can't understand it. Usually, there are always exceptions.

[Wab]

As for people born with disabilities, or people with cancer, etc, this could be a gift from god in the long run.

No it isn't trust me.

[Tane]

People do choose there direction in life, if that leads to an accident then it leads there but then there are those that choose to aid the person in pain too so it balances in a way. I know not everyone turns to god when bad things happen, most of the time you find it does not really do anything to aid your situation but I guess for some can make them think things through.

[Wab]

People do choose there direction in life


No one chooses to be paralysed.

[Sherlock Holmes]

Chill out a bit, people. This is the Spirit Division, which is a non-debate forum. That means no arguing, just discussing.

[busy91]

No one chooses to be paralysed.

But not everyone thinks this way. I don't blame God or Satan or anyone for my situation. I believe I made this choice before I came here to be the way I am. I don't feel I am 'suffering', I don't feel that something 'bad' has happened to me. It is the course my life is taking and I have accepted it. My ego would not choose to be sick, but as far as I'm concerned, it was decided before I was born. I could sit here in denial, be angry and upset that there are healthy people in the world, or I can take my situation and help others. It is all perspective.

[gymmuggle]

WOW..marylovesharry. im so sry to hear all that horrible stuff...but i think people turn from God when something 'bad' happens to them because they are in such shock and are so depressed from 'bad' events that they just cannot believe that God could let such a thing happen

[thethirdman]

Sometimes people bring about their own misfortune. Sometimes people get used by others. Sometimes things just happen. My uncle did not cause himself to get hit by a drunk driver. The drunk driver chose to drive drunk and blow the stop sign doing 60 in a 45. And where was god? I believe god suffered with my uncle and shared his pain. Like I said before and elsewhere. I don't believe in an all powerful god. I believe in a helpless but caring god who used all it had to create the world. Not exactly a conventional belief, but I find comfort and understanding in it.

[Windham]

Give me a concrete reason why God would let bad things happen to people who put their faith in Him?

Not the ineffability of the Lord. Not Him moving in mysterious ways. Not we'll find out when we're dead.

Give me one good reason why a benevolent and omnipotent deity would choose to kick the faithful in the guts.

And, please, no test of faith.

You ask for reasons, and then say "no, sorry, you can't use this, this, this, and this." If you expect an answer you can't place conditions upon the answer you want to receive. Imagine you're a dog. You ask another dog about the nature of humans, BUT you won't accept any answer that implies there are things about humans dogs can't comprehend. That's logical fallacy.

What I perhaps meant to say was that if God is perfect and everything else that is claimed then it should be utterly impossible to find flaw or reason to question his existence.

That even one person believes there is possible flaws in God's possible existence or even can question it brings his very existence into disrepute.

So the fact that beings with limited capacity to reason and understand can fail to grasp something, that means it's not true? You said it yourself--we're just people. We don't understand everything, and it's human nature to be arrogant about our existence. We have always tried to place ourselves as the center of everything. The universe revolves around us, remember that one?

[joel is cheese]

This is a really good topic. My youth pastor just did a sermon on this last night. It was a pretty well thought out sermon. It was one of a sermon series on the abundant life (John 10:10 "The thief comes to kill, steal, and to destroy. I have come so that you may have life and have it to the full."). Basically, he talked about how Jesus is there for you. He used the example of Jesus having a "crying session" with Lazarus' sister after Lazarus died. He was there for her, and he's there for us. When bad things happen, He is there for us to comfort us. I don't see why people turn from him, I would like to know as well, but if you ask Him, Jesus is there.

On evolution, I believe that parts of evolution could be true. For example, I believe natural selection happens. I don't believe it has happened with humans, however, because most of all humans don't physically adapt (that's why humans are the one of few mammals without copious amounts of fur, we've had clothes), they create things (just like God, in His image). It may have happened to an extent (EX There is proof that humans, on average, have gotten taller since the 1800's). I believe that even going as far to say that the big bang could've happened, God could've sparked it, for creation. It could have been the very beginning, God's creation of the heavens and the earth (as said in Genesis 1:1). I do believe that God created, but I do not know how. The six days he created could be six literal days, or (likely) could be six "eras" in which He created (if it were literal days, the Earth would only be around about 4000 years according to the Bible, which is pretty much proven is false, but you can't prove everything, scientificaly or not). I have no idea, that's the whole basis of my faith: believing without seeing. That's the purpose of faith.

[Tane]

It is my belief that the cause and effect rule, for every action there is a result whether it becomes good or bad should be taken into consideration if choice is mentioned. I look at it this way, someone chooses to run across the road instead of walking and as a result gets knocked down because they tripped over something in the road and become paralyzed from the accident, they did not choose to be paralyzed but they choose to run instead of walking which may have prevent them from falling and subsequently being knocked down by an approaching car.

[marylovesharry]

I'm glad that people are responding to my thread. I can't check it as often as I like to because of my classes but I enjoy reading what people believe and why, so I go through and read them all before I respond.
I don't believe that I chose the life that I have. I believe that God has my life mapped out for me and that everything that I go through is there to help me grow. I don't blame him for the 'bad' stuff in my life, because I know that everything happens for a reason and He has it all under control. God will never give me more then I can't handle.

[~Tonks~]

I don't believe that I chose the life that I have. I believe that God has my life mapped out for me and that everything that I go through is there to help me grow. I don't blame him for the 'bad' stuff in my life, because I know that everything happens for a reason and He has it all under control. God will never give me more then I can't handle.


This is in no way meant to be rude whatsoever so I hope you don't take it that way, but doesn't it bother you that essentially you have zero control over your life and no personal freedoms or choices whatsoever? Because this to me implies that your life exists solely for the purpose of higher life form to carry out it's agenda, and you know, I may not believe in what you do, but I know a few Christians that would even find that a little saddening, because they believe their God wants them to live their life and make choices about things that come along, not that it's entirely out of their hands and up to God.

[busy91]

OK Tonks, you are my hero. I was going to write something similar but didn't want to offend anyone.

I never understood why people think God or anyone has total control over their life, especially when the church talks of Free Will. That is what Free Will is, not God pulling our puppet strings, but giving us a noose long enough to hang ourselves...j/k.

But seriously, I never understood that, but I respect other peoples views, just hope they can respect mine.

[marylovesharry]

This is in no way meant to be rude whatsoever so I hope you don't take it that way, but doesn't it bother you that essentially you have zero control over your life and no personal freedoms or choices whatsoever? Because this to me implies that your life exists solely for the purpose of higher life form to carry out it's agenda, and you know, I may not believe in what you do, but I know a few Christians that would even find that a little saddening, because they believe their God wants them to live their life and make choices about things that come along, not that it's entirely out of their hands and up to God.

I am not offended at all by your comment. I was going to post before on the subject of free will but I ran out of time so I left it where I did. I guess now is as good a time as any since I do have a little time. I believe that God gives us choices and we choose what we want AND I believe He has my life mapped out for me. What I mean is, say I have the choice to go to Paris or Hawaii on vacation. If I decide to go to Hawaii God has a plan for me, if I go to Paris, God still has a plan for me. It doesn't matter what we choose becuase God will still have a plan either way and we are still choosing what we want. I am choosing to go to Hawaii and not Paris, but God still has a plan and the next choice I have to make, God has a plan. I think Free Will is extrememly important in my faith. If there was no free will there would be no sin and everyone would be living in the Garden of Eden forever.
I also believe that I am on this Earth to honor and serve the Lord. My life isn't really my life anymore it's His. Actually, it was never mine to begin with. God created me and so I am His and then He bought me with his son's blood. He paid for me twice. I don't understand how Christians can think that their life is their own IF they believe in Jesus as their Lord and Savior. So, I make decisions based upon wether or not they are honoring to God. I don't know if what I believe makes sense to you or not, but that's what I believe.

EDIT:
I want to clarify the 'if' part I wrote. While re-reading what I posted I decided it wasn't clear. I do not hold non-christians to the same standard as Christians. When you accept Jesus as you personal Lord and Savior, the old is gone and you are wiped clean and you become a new person in Christ. Therefore you are held up to God's standards not the world's and while yes, Christ died for you, and everyone on this Earth non-christians don't think the same way as most Christians. Therefore, I can understand a non-christian thinking that their life is their own because they don't belive what I do; that God created me and then sent His son to die for me in turn paying for me twice. So, if you don't belive that, that's fine with me I didn't want anyone saying, 'well I don't believe...' or something along those lines.

[morgiana]

Some people do have the tendency to blame God when a loved one dies or is very ill or has a horrible accident.

We want to blame someone other than ourselves when things don't go right. If God did it then I can be mad at God and not my loved one who didn't go to the doctor and died of pneumonia. I can't blame myself for letting someone drown because I didn't lock the gate to the pool. God doesn't give us cancer we have bad habits which give us cancer. You get in the car after too much to drink and someone is in a coma from the accident you not God caused. You pray to God and if you don't get what you want that's it - God didn't answer me so it's God's fault.

There are alot of people on earth and maybe on other planets; that's really too much for even God to supervise constantly. If god is in fact in charge of your life then even if you grew up to be a murderer it wouldn't be your fault

[Wab]

There are alot of people on earth and maybe on other planets; that's really too much for even God to supervise constantly.

What about omnipotence? If God can't (as opposed to can't be bothered) supervise everyone than He is not omnipotent and, therefore, imperfect.

[~Tonks~]

I am not offended at all by your comment. I was going to post before on the subject of free will but I ran out of time so I left it where I did. I guess now is as good a time as any since I do have a little time. I believe that God gives us choices and we choose what we want AND I believe He has my life mapped out for me. What I mean is, say I have the choice to go to Paris or Hawaii on vacation. If I decide to go to Hawaii God has a plan for me, if I go to Paris, God still has a plan for me. It doesn't matter what we choose becuase God will still have a plan either way and we are still choosing what we want. I am choosing to go to Hawaii and not Paris, but God still has a plan and the next choice I have to make, God has a plan. I think Free Will is extrememly important in my faith. If there was no free will there would be no sin and everyone would be living in the Garden of Eden forever.
I also believe that I am on this Earth to honor and serve the Lord. My life isn't really my life anymore it's His. Actually, it was never mine to begin with. God created me and so I am His and then He bought me with his son's blood. He paid for me twice. I don't understand how Christians can think that their life is their own IF they believe in Jesus as their Lord and Savior. So, I make decisions based upon wether or not they are honoring to God. I don't know if what I believe makes sense to you or not, but that's what I believe.


Thanks Busy91. :blush: Glad you enjoyed it.

All I can say Mary, is that these are your beliefs, and I respect them. If this is really how you feel, and you're happy, cool. I, myself, have just always found it rather... odd... that a totally omniscent God who essentially has control over everything, because he created it, would for some reason have to "pay" for/"buy" his creation's lives with, of all things, the blood of his son, who is also in a sense himself, according to the trinity, especially when he has plans for everything and knew all of this would happen ahead of time. Please don't misunderstand what I am saying as a lack of knowledge or information of the faith, because I know why people believe it had to be that way, and how it works, because I do. To me it's just all very circular and overly elaborate. It also echos the common day practices of sacrifice and atonement, so the idea of a bloodshed for redemption was not a new concept. Some people in the faith may disagree with this, but theologans and historians will tell you Christianity (and it's not the only faith that does it, just to be fair) is notorious for mirroring much earlier beliefs, especially those of the Pagans, especially in their methods of conversion, i,e, similar concepts make it easy for people to relate and warm up to a new idea.

But, hey, you have something that works for you. At least you can say that much, some people don't even have that.

[marylovesharry]

Thanks Busy91. :blush: Glad you enjoyed it.

All I can say Mary, is that these are your beliefs, and I respect them. If this is really how you feel, and you're happy, cool. I, myself, have just always found it rather... odd... that a totally omniscent God who essentially has control over everything, because he created it, would for some reason have to "pay" for/"buy" his creation's lives with, of all things, the blood of his son, who is also in a sense himself, according to the trinity, especially when he has plans for everything and knew all of this would happen ahead of time. Please don't misunderstand what I am saying as a lack of knowledge or information of the faith, because I know why people believe it had to be that way, and how it works, because I do. To me it's just all very circular and overly elaborate. It also echos the common day practices of sacrifice and atonement, so the idea of a bloodshed for redemption was not a new concept. Some people in the faith may disagree with this, but theologans and historians will tell you Christianity (and it's not the only faith that does it, just to be fair) is notorious for mirroring much earlier beliefs, especially those of the Pagans, especially in their methods of conversion, i,e, similar concepts make it easy for people to relate and warm up to a new idea.

But, hey, you have something that works for you. At least you can say that much, some people don't even have that.

I appreciate that you respect my beliefs. It is a lot easier to talk with someone who is respectful versus someone who isn't. I understand that a lot of people wonder why Christ had to die if God knew all of this was going to happen. I think it's pretty simple. God loves us and His love is pure. His love can't be pure if we were forced into loving him. If he made us love him (which I believe he is very capable of doing) it wouldn't be pure, or true. It's like with people, making someone love you (by say bribing them or changing who you are), never feels as good as if that person chose you love you for no reason and the person who chose to love you, their love is alot stronger then the person you made love you. That's why I believe there is suffering in the world. We choose not to obey God, we choose to turn from Him and sin. It is our fault. No one is perfect, no one can say they've never sinned or they would be prideful, which is a sin.

[offca]

I do believe we have absolute free will, and same time that God can do everything, and knows everything. I do not think these ideas contradict each other. God knows - but doesn't stop (in most situations) to leave humans free choice. the bad things that happen mostly are just consequences of free choices of other people. somethimes it is to wake us up - like to say: "just stop for a moment! think about your life, think about what you are doing with it!" to help us repent and go back to God. sometimes it is to punish us for some sins, sometimes to test us, sometimes it just happens... I do believe that both good and bad comes from God - He gives life and takes life. whatever He gives me, I try to accept with humble heart - which is very difficult. He may want to test me - and thru this help me to climb on higher spriritual level. it is all complex, we cannot see the whole picture - only He can see it. one day we will understand everything, why it was nessessery to suffer.
Thanks God I have wonderful life, but I believe we need to thank Him both for good and for "bad" that happens in our life. because in the matter of fact, as He is Good, everything what comes from HIm is also Good - we just cannot understand it, because of our limited mind.

[Naitch]

****, you had a bad year.

I think that people blame god when things go wrong because god's an east target. Or someone could be religious, and something bad happens and they think "Well, I'm down with god, but he's not down with me, so ---- 'em". Personally, I blamed god for the worst two frellin' years of my life because it was easy. I blamed myself, but not as much as god.
Kinda makes me think about it now that I'm writing this down...

[kjr99044]

Wab, not everybody in the intensive care ward, or any recovery center will agree with you. I have three family members who are disabled. They may not be better off physically, but it's up to them if they're better off emotionally for it, in the long run. They choose how to deal with their physical limitations both emotionally and physically. Either they get bitter, or they suddenly feel more compassion for all sorts of other maladies and social problems, and we're all better off working as a team, healthy or not. My parents have different disabilities, and they help each other with things each other can't do, and their love and friendship is stronger than ever because of it.

Hard times teach us to appreciate what's good (you suddenly, deeply appreciate being able to breathe after nearly choking to death) (How can you know good without seeing evil?), and love others, to share what good things we have to help others. This life is lived by faith because in the previous life we already were tested/lived (at least in part) by knowledge, where Satan was so evil he chose against knowledge to try and force us all back to being like God -- but we cannot be like God unless we choose, so his plan couldn't work. God lets us do bad things because his judgment wouldn't be just if we didn't choose, and we wouldn't be good people if we didn't really choose to be good. In that assumption is that God creates only good things, so our spirits or part of our spirits must be as eternal as God (but not as powerful) without creation. He gives us all the help he can so we can become the best selves possible through experience.

You may now begin throwing stones my way.

[LeeJordanfan]

Perhaps, some people turn away from God because when truly horrifying things happen, the institutional Churches are so quiet about the subject. I've been over in the "Does God exist" debate thread, and this really hit home with me last night. As a non-believer in a personal God, here's the impression I'm getting:

When a gay person is killed in a hate crime, it makes others nicer to gays, because they see that being mean to gay people is wrong. So that's "progress". Too bad for the gay person, but we'll give them a good Christian funeral. Cancer is good for your spiritual life. (I've watched close family members die of cancer, so I found that premise particularly cold). When a Columbine happens, there's an "opportunity" to bring people to God. So that's "good" too.

I'm sorry, but these appear to be very cold, and cruel responses. It's appalling to athiestic sympathizers like myself. So, just some food for thought, perhaps the reason people turn from any kind of personal God is because so many people who follow this God appear to have beliefs, that to me, as an outsider, are completely cruel and cold-hearted. I can't imagine any personal God being that cruel.

[danfan4ever]

I think it's awesome all you went through and you still had so much faith in God (no tthat the events were awesome are anything)... Some people turn from God when something good happens and some pepole turn from God when something bad happens... I don't know why...

[Holly is Short]

Because they beleive that god is meant to watch over them. And nothing bad is supposed to happen cause he does watch you...

[Potters Goblet]

I believe that the reason people turn from God is because we're all a party to what I refer to as the "Santa God" mentality. We treat God as a sort of Santa Claus for sinners/believers. If we're good enough, then maybe we'll get that promotion we prayed about... but then we don't get it and we pout because we were so good! We went to church! We took our vitamins. We read 30 scriptures a day! Why didn't you give me that promotion, God? Don't you want me to be able to take care of my family? Why are you so against me? Don't you love me? Don't you love my family? Don't you want me to have nice things? George has nice things and he's never been to church. Maybe that's the deal. God if you don't want to lose me then you will give me these nice things you hear me? Otherwise I'm just gonna go out and live George's life.... Okay God. I'm counting to three....

One... Two....

[ultimate sacrifice]

I heard a sermon once about prayer. Our minister stated in his sermon that God always answers prayer, he just doesn't always answer our prayers the way we want him to. He answers our prayers with a "Yes", "No" or "Not Yet". We don't often like the answers that we get and we are limited in our "spiritual understanding" as well, therefore we often "lose heart", "fall away", "rebell", "pout" , etc. and do not receive the full blessing of learning to be obedient. We just do not always have the immediate "spiritual understanding" when God doesn't give us what we want, when we want it. We're human!

I liked the way Potters Goblet explained it. Thanks, Potters Goblet for the illustration. Made sense to me! I have often referred to this same topic as the "Geni God" syndrome. You know...when Christians/believers think that they can just pick up the phone and dial up and say..."Hello God, Gimme, Gimme, Gimme". "Here's my three wishes, God, now make them come true."

We often forget that we were created to have fellowship with God. According to the creation account in Genesis, God was lonely after he had created the firmaments, the heavens, the other living creatures...they could not commune with him and provide the fellowship he desired, so we were created in his image to fellowship with him.

Things go wrong in this world because the world as we know it now, is not the same world that Adam and Eve experienced in the Garden of Eden...It won't be until Christ returns and banishes Satan from the earth.

Things are going to go wrong, Satan has free reign over the earth at this time, we will have trials and struggles and the earth and the other living creatures are not as they were when Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden. (The Chronicles of Narnia are a great illustration of this concept...to me Narnia is the Garden of Eden.) The struggle for the Christian/believer is not the ultimate outcome, it's how we deal with the "stuff" of the world right now, while we're on this earth. We are to be "in the world, but not of the world".

Sorry, no easy outs and no easy answers for us Christians. We need to "Press On" Folks.

Peace be with you!