Why suspect the Marauders?

[sugarquill]

Black and Lupin were the best of friends, why then did Black suspect Lupin of betraying the Potters? Did something happen to trigger this suspision, or is it just because warewolfs are untrustworthy? I wonder if we'll learn more about this in coming books.

[FoolOnTheHill]

Here's my take on it: Sirius knew that someone close to the Potters was giving Voldemort tips about them. He didn't think Pettigrew was capable of this, so by narrowing it down he thought it might be Lupin. Same goes for Lupin suspecting Sirius.

[Wild Rose]

I think it is because, as Mr Weasley said in GOF, no-one knew what was going on. You didn't know who was a Death Eater, who wasn't, it was all mixed up.

@-'-,-------------

[sugarquill]

But they were best friends for years, why would their trust waver like that? surley there were other explinations for the leaked info.

[aragog]

I agree, back then everything was insanity, you didn't know who to trust, who was being controlled, etc... Peter Pettigrew betraying the Potters was (apparently) just as likely/unlikely as Lupin or Black betraying them. One can't be too careful in times like those.

[Guardian Angel]

Originally posted by sugarquill (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=250492#post250492))
But they were best friends for years, why would their trust waver like that?


Back in those dark times they weren't sure who should they trust. You see how it turned out that one of their friends was the one who is responsible for killing the Potters.
Sirius knew that only someone that was that close to them could do it.

Anyway, I don't remember when Sirius said that he didn't believe Lupin. Sirius spent his time in Azkaban thinking about Peter - he knew that it was him because they had a fight on the street... (when Peter blew up himself)

I am really confused here - I could use some help , people! ;)

[Justin Etre]

Wormtail was poisoning Remus and Sirius against one another, by accusing them so they wouldn't turn on my, the true traitor

[dyingmoon]

Alright this might sound stupid but this is how I see it in my mind. Everyone around Remus had pretty good lifes I suppose(lily and James having Harry and the other two having pretty good carees), but Remus didn't have anything so maybe he felt depressed because of this and started hanging out with himself more. That might have made Sirius suspicious. And add the fact that Remus was a werewolf...you might get a death eater. And anyway what was keeping Remus on the good side, not many people on the good side liked or trusted him so what was there to lose by joining the dark side? But I guess Remus being the most wonderful and kindest person in the world knew what was right from wrong. Gee, I'm getting carried away now so I'd better go. All this might sound like a bunch of drangon dung but like I said before that's how I see it in my crazy mind.

[GrangerGal]

I think if we look back in history to WWII we can see how friends and family turned against eachother and actually turned eachother IN to the Nazi party. I did read somewhere (I can't remember which interview) that JKR was highly influenced by WWII and many of her themes purposely mirror those of that time period. Think about the "unclean" blood and the leaders who are both "halfbreeds." I believe that it is JKR's intentions to show how difficult it was to trust anyone... even family and friends. She despises intolerance and prejudice which is why she constantly reinforces the theme through DD that everyone at Hogwarts belongs there and we are all on the same side. Through the series, she shows what intolerance and prejudice can do to friends and families. It can cause them to do horrible things to eachother. This is why it was so easy for Remus and Sirius to blame eachother even though they didn't want to.

[aiko amaya]

Maybe sirius though that Lupin had turned traiter because he was a werewolf and had some evil in him, just a thought :D. Also why did sirius suspect lupin?

[Thayet]

Did Sirius know that they'd changed to Peter, or did he perhaps think that they'd changed again to Lupin, remember, it was dark times, and if someone suspects you, or should I say "suspects", you might suspect it was them and they were framing you.. if you understand that. Not sure I do now. But I know what I mean/meant.

[Lupins Ladee]

I think it all boils down to everyone underestimated Peter. Sirius knew that it was not him and he figured Peter was too incompetent so that leaves Lupin. Throw in the fact that the guy is a "Dark" Creature and you have your spy. I think the demeaning of Pete also aided to him joing Volde. But that is for another thread.
The question is why did Lupin think it was ok that Sirius thought he was the spy? In the shrieking shack chaper it seemed as though Lupin knew that Sirius thought he was the spy. Why would poor Lupin think he deserved such disregard? I hope Lupin gets a happy ending b/c I feel for him and he deserves a happy ending.

[aiko amaya]

Originally posted by Thayet (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=251051#post251051))
Did Sirius know that they'd changed to Peter, or did he perhaps think that they'd changed again to Lupin, remember, it was dark times, and if someone suspects you, or should I say "suspects", you might suspect it was them and they were framing you.. if you understand that. Not sure I do now. But I know what I mean/meant.

Sirius is the one who convinced lily and James last minute to change to peter, the reason why lupin tought that it was sirius was that he still tought Sirius was James' secret keeper and thought that peter still wasn't so he thought that sirius had told voldie.

[GrangerGal]

I really think you are on to something Lupins Ladee. I teach in a high school and I see students constantly trying to "prove" themselves or overcome identies and harassment. Peter wanted to be liked and seen as a great wizard but he wasn't as powerful as most. This is why Sirius and Lupin suspected eachother before they EVER suspected Peter. It probaby killed Peter to know that no one would ever think he would be powerful enough to do something to the extent of killing the Potters and framing Sirius. Wormtail definitely has a bit of an inferiority complex.

[Aldawen]

I agree with Lupins Ladee. They all underestimated Pettigrew. Sirius suspected Remus because he is (apparently) a really intelligent guy and, in Sirius's mind, more capable of evil. And, like many people have already stated, it was a chaotic time and nobody knew who to trust. May I just add that Lupin is the greatest.

[rayrayjohanna]

Lupin figured it out when he saw Pettigrew on the map and then realized how wrong everyone had been about Sirius. And Sirius's suspicions of Lupin disappeared when he confronted Wormtail years earlier. I'm glad they were able to make up, we'll need both characters in the books to come. Now if they can only get Snape to accept what really happened.

[Ellen]

It may have been more than not knowing who to trust. Who says Voldemort wasn't trying to actively plant misinformation? Sirius didn't even have to believe it all the way. There have been people who spied because of threats to themselves or others dear to them as well as spies like Bagman, people who passed on information without realizing it was going into the wrong hands. Then there are things like the Imperius curse and the fact that Lupin in those days was literally insane three nights a month. All that was needed was for Sirius to think it was possible enough to take the extra precaution of not letting him know something he didn't need to know anyway (or wouldn't have needed to know if Peter had been trustworthy).

However, when it seemed that Sirius had betrayed the Potters, I think there were enough details that didn't seem quite right that both Lupin and Dumbledore must have wondered about it. That would be why, once they knew Peter was alive, everything fell into place and they understood the truth.

[MadMagic]

Yes, I agree that it was due to the fact that they all thought Pettigrew to be inept. Black knew it wasn't him, but that it had to be one of the 4 mauraders. James wouldn't betray himself, so this left only Lupin. I don't think it had anything to do with him being a warewolf or his past friendship with him. He just knew it had to be someone.

[Weatherby]

I agree with MadMagic.
They figured Voldemort wouldn't want Peter but might go for Lupin or Sirius.
Sirius knew the spy wasn't himself so he naturally looked towards Lupin.

[sugarquill]

But there must have been a sneaky aspect to peter that the friends knew about. He couldn't have worn a halo throughout his school years as these things tend to surface. I suspect that as in all young friendships there tends to be a tension between friends especially in a group of four where one gets jealous of twos closer friendship. I wonder if Black and Lupin silently competed for James' friendship each wanting to be the closer friend? maybe Lupin felt slighted by James not asking him to be a godfather to Harry. Or maybe its just too late and I should get some sleep.

[dantares]

I think it like all others, Black is against werewolf and believed that Lupin would be the one deflecting from the good side since he is a werewolf. Also, he never really care about Peter enough to think that the person might be him.

[pheonixrising]

lol. poor peter, but they didn't hugely underestimate him. I mean, the idiot spent 12 years as a rat, and went into an inn, when he was supposed to be dead. THe dude's practically brain-dead. Think about it: Me. That's all he thinks about. We haven't seen him stratigize or anything. If something went wrong with his little plans, boom, gone. Sirius found out. Whoops, he gets caught and almost dies, then runs away. And when he cuts his hand off, he doesn't try a charm or spell to heal it. Think about: To stupid to get the idea or if he did, not powerful enough magically to do it. So, on that, he was stupid. Sirius and Lupin didn't underestimate him by much.

[Thayet]

He hid as a rat. Escaped them countless times, thought only of himself, and done what got him the furthest - that doesn't sound stupid to me. Selfish, inconsiderate, greedy, uncaring, yes. Stupid - no. Lucky, perhaps, to escape, but he wasn't expecting to get caught. He survived as a rat only because he was as a rat - as just that. He was hiding from the remaining followers of Lord Voldemort, perfectly positioned to murder, hurt, injure, kill, take your pick, whichever he could do to Harry, to be accepted into the circle of Death Eaters and Voldemort, with honour. If it suited him. If Voldemort died, instead of hiding, more publicly, it wouldn't surprise me if he would have come out of hiding, and said he'd been scared of Voldemorts wrath. They did underestimate him. The going to an inn when supposed to be dead was foolish, but that does not make the man pure stupid. One act of foolishness does not make the person who made the act stupid, just, simply, foolish. He didn't try a charm or spell to heal his hand because Voldemort didn't want him to - imagine what Voldemort would do if you magically repaired something he had used for himself without his permission. Not a good idea, I wouldn't have thought. He's escaped death and torture for years - not the act of stupidity, more sly and cunningness.

[halfmoonspectacles]

Yes, i agree that there was some1 close to the potters who was acting as a spy and this lead friends to suspect each other....but dont completely leave Peter outta this....Sirius recognized how cowardly Pettigrew could be and how he liked to hang around with the biggest guy on the block..we all know that Sirius discovered Peter was the spy and that he was the only 1 who knew Peter was alive and had been spy...but I find it curious that Lupin never recognized Peter's cowardice...don't you? I mean Sirius definitely fit the part of a murderer but if I had a friend who was willing to become an animagi so that my werewolf transformations could be easier I might take a step back and examine if there were other possible Potter betrayers....dont get me wrong here, though, i luv lupin, ;) :angel:

[pheonixrising]

He hid. that's it. Hide and wait for Voldie to come back. He hung on for 12 YEARS for V to come back so he could kill Harry and get welcomed back. Either he had great faith he was coming back, or he just had one plan and didn't want to abandon it.

[aiko amaya]

I would just like to point out that you don't need great magical or injtelectual power to betray your friends, which was big mistake made by the maurauders, they forgot to take that into account. I mean it's not like you need brains to commit a crime, infact alot of peope who commit crimes are kinda stupid. I can get how they didn't think of bwetter. Lupin and black fighting for James attention is n EXCELLENT theory of why they suspected each other, it would make quite a bit of sense. Maybe Hermione and Ron and secretly fighting for harry's attention...

[black&potter]

black thought lupin had givin lily and james secret away when it was actually wormtail am i right i feel unsure i need to go read again

[harp230]

My question is not so much why did Lupin/ Sirius suspect each other as much as did James or Dumbledore actually suspect any of the three of them? Im guessing he trusted wormtail but was it just because Sirius suggested him as a decoy secret keeper? Did James really trust Sirius? Would he have gone through with Sirius as the secret keeper? I wonder this because Throughout the third book Lupin seems to act odd towards Harry.. a bit standoffish. Like he knows something that he is not telling anyone(plus Lupin did not want anything to do with Professor Trelawney and he crystal ball. Why?) I wonder if Perhaps Lupin and James had a plan B on the side.

[jordmundt6]

Okay, this is my first post. I'm gonna try to make it short and sweet. I think Black suspected Lupin because Lupin is a werewolf. I know this is unkind and evinces a low opinion of Sirius, but I think it's true. Lupin, like other special members of the magical community (read Giants) was ostracized from wizardkind because they saw him as nothing but the savage beast he turned into every month. Because of the pain he felt, Lupin dedicated his life to the study of so-called Dark Creatures. I assume that he felt that if he taught children to understand the bizarre and neutralize the bloodthirsty, they would learn to accept the creatures around them as part of nature and, eventually accept him. This enterprise failed miserably. He graduated from Hogwarts and earned an advanced degree to beocme an expert in the Dark Arts so that he could teach DADA. But, he could never hold down a job. Those who knew of his affliction refused to hire him, and avoided seeing him as much as possible. Those who didn't know, learned quickly, so he had a succession of jobs that he held for a month or less and traveled Europe looking for a place that would take him in.

As Lupin's friend, Sirius knew all this. He also knew that humanoid Dark Creatures were being lured to Voldemort's side with promises of equality (see Book 4 for an explanation of how this worked on the Giants). It could be that Voldemort claimed to find a real cure for lycanthropy (sp.?). Anyway, Sirius knew that Remus would do anything to be normal, be accepted and figured that Voldemort would know just how to tempt him. Also, you're all right, Sirius completely dismissed Peter (a weak, talentless coward; why would Voldemort bother with him?)

[jordmundt6]

Dumbledore knew somebody in the inner circle was a traitor. To obviate the problem, he offered to be Secret-Keeper himself. James refused to disown any of his friends and probably figured he'd avoid a Dumbledore/Voldemort showdown until absolutely necessary. Hey, what if Dumbledore lost? Britain would fall like a house of cards and there wasn't a champion in the world, or even a group of champions that could match Dumbledore. All those titles actually do mean something y'know.

[jordmundt6]

I find it interesting that, of the entire crew who survived, the one who gets the closest physically and emotionally to Harry is Lupin. He was half a second away from embracing him in PoA and he's never as gruff as Black. He's quieter, but I get the sense that he's warmer. I don't know, maybe he's like the big brother that Harry never had in that he's still immature in spite of himself and tries to teach Harry through his own mistakes.

But again, Remus seems better tuned in to Harry than Sirius was (though Sirius can recognize James' heroic tendencies in him). Lupin knew exaclty what Harry was feeling when they were preparing and discussing the Dementors and Harry's parents. It was a sort of benevolent intuition, a disarming and comforting version of Snape's uncanny ability to "read minds" or "put two and two together."

[Puffskein]

If you are going to be friends with a werewolf for 7+ years, keeping him company and getting to know him in both forms, I can't believe that you would turn around and start mistrusting him for that sole reason. I think it's a real slur on Sirius that he might have done that. In my opinion he suspected Remus simply because the times made people generally suspicious and he couldn't believe Peter had the guts to betray anyone. Remus might also have been acting secretive for whatever reason.

[Fuchsia]

That's an interesting point, Puffskein. But Sirius was changed in prison so his outlook on other people is not going to be the same as it was before.
Sirius does need time to be reintroduced to society and its people.
He had a lot of time, angry and miserable in his cell, to suspect anyone.

[Puffskein]

But didn't Sirius suspect Remus before he was in prison? That's why Remus didn't know about Peter being the secret keeper. That's what we're talking about, isn't it?

[Fuchsia]

He was untrustful but that could just be on the safe side, using common sense. He might not have been holding his werewolfyness against him, just not knowing who to trust.

[jordmundt6]

You two apparently misunderstood me. I didn't say that Black mistrusted Lupin because he was a werewolf. Fuschia's right that there were a limited number of candidates and Black though Pettigrew too dependent on the protection he and James offered to betray anyone. However, I said Black mistrusted Lupin because, as Lupin's friend, he knew how much he'd suffered and how desperately he wanted to be normal again, to be accepted into society and raise a family without a cloud of suspicion or elaborate and painful precautions taken every month. We know Voldemort offered the giants equality to get them to join him, what if he offered the werewolves a true cure? This is the one thing that Lupin desires above anything in the world. The chance not to live in fear of himself, in fear of the full moon, as a lonely penniless outcast. Black knows most men would kill to fulfill a dream like that and figures that might be just the right temptation to sway Remus into Voldemort's power. It isn't because he's a werewolf, it's because he would do ANYTHING not to be a werewolf.

[Fuchsia]

Okay, I get you now.

I don't think that Sirius would necessarily have had to make up a motive for Lupin to do it just that seeing all of those other wizards turn made it more believable that Lupin would.

[Weatherby]

Perhaps he thought Lupin would be under the crucio or other curses?
Lupin is more strong-minded than a lot of wizards but there seemed to be a lot of mistrust and lack of understanding of each other's abilities.

[Fuchsia]

There was a lot of mistrust going around in those days.
With those kind of curses existing it is impossible to trust anyone. You don't know who is acting as themselves.

[Weatherby]

That's true.
I hope they didn't trust each other over that. I'm sure loads of "decent" wizards turned for various reasons.
But why Peter was less likely to turn is beyond me. I would've suspected him first. :)

[Fuchsia]

I wonder how the MOM decided who was acting under a curse and who was not?
Or the rest of the wizards for that matter?
Their suspicions weren't always founded in reason I'm sure. Paranoia ran high.

[Weatherby]

They based it on family history. They believed Lucius Malfoy because he came from an old respected family.
I'm sure they had huge evidence to contradict this but they didn't want to see that.

[Fuchsia]

So in other words it is just like the muggle world. Teenagers who come from good families get away with breaking the law but the ones from a hard knock life go to prison.
Even Crouch jr. was doubted to really do those things just by looking at him.
"*He* can't be evil" because of who his family was.

[Weatherby]

Exactly. They were willing to give Crouch Jr. a trial before finding him guilty. There were witnesses who saw his crowd torture the Longbottoms but they believed him more than Sirius.

How did Macnair, Avery and Nott convince them they were innocent and land MoM jobs?

But I'm getting off-topic. :)
Or perhaps not. Lupin may have suspected Sirirus for the same reasons everyone else did later.
His rambucous school years. If the twins are ever in trouble they'll hold their pranks against them.

[Fuchsia]

Being a troublemaker does make it easier to believe that you'd be bad.

On the otherhand Sirius may have held the werewolf thing agaisnt Lupin afterall.
I know that when I did something bad my mother would remember everything I had ever done and bring it up, regardless of the fact that I was five at the time.
"You break everything!"

Paranoia...

[natassia]

hey, i have a question for you guys, could you specify whether you mean did Sirius suspect Lupn to be the traitor that was eventually Lily and James's downfall, or did he just supect him to be on the "dark" side?

[Fuchsia]

Natassia, don't those go hand in hand?
If he betrayed them than he would be on the darkside.

[Weatherby]

We're discussing why Black suspected him to be the spy which means he would be on the dark side.
Someone who would be willing to betray their friends to Voldemort would have to be on the dark side.
At least in Sirius mind. :)

Fuchsia - that's true.
If Sirius judged Lupin based on him being a warewolf then he'd changed while being in prison.
However Lupin had 12 years to think Sirius wasn't innocent.

[jordmundt6]

Am I garbling what I'm trying to say? Black did not suspect Lupin just because he was a werewolf. He knew Lupin was a caring and intelligent wizard who felt ostracized, feared being abandoned and wanted desperately to be normal.

Black knew, (well, Dumbledore knew and I assume Black and James did) about how Voldemort seduced the giants with talk of an equal voice in the government of the magical community. He could have figured, quite reasonably, that Voldemort would extend olive branches to the humanoid magical creatures he felt were corruptible (one of these being werewolves). Now what would tempt a werewolf? The chance to not live in fear. The chance to be normal again. If Voldemort could make the werewolves believe that he had found a way to make them normal, they would fight for him because they would believe that they were securing their rightful place in the magical community as fellow wizards and witches. Black knew how much Lupin wanted to be normal. It's possible he could have heard rumors of a claim similar to the one described above. In which case, Lupin might be tempted to cooperate with Voldemort in order to be fully restored. It's Remus' human nature that Sirius judged, not his physical nature as a werewolf.

[Fuchsia]

jordmundt6, I'm not speculating this because of anything you said but my mind did get on that track.

It doesn't really matter what the specific reason for suspecting Lupin was, really. It could be anything. Motives are not always enough to convict someone in a trial afterall. How much can you base it on?

Sirius deep down no doubt knew Lupin did not do it. But to be on the safe side like I said before.

[Weatherby]

Perhaps Sirius didn't suspect Lupin of willingly betraying their friends but was worried Voldemort could torture the information out of him? This was his reason for not trusting himself I presume?

[Fuchsia]

Torture too. They didn't even want to put Dumbledore at risk. That says something.

[Weatherby]

It does.
Lupin didn't trust Sirius after Lily and James were blownup. That's different. Perhaps deep down he knew he was innocent.

[tttiiimmmmmmyyy]

You know what I realized? The Potters probably knew that there was no way Sirius could be the spy. He was too good a friend. All they had to do to be sure of safety was tell Peter that Lupin was the keeper and vice versa! Guess wizards aren't very logical...

[Puffskein]

Jordmundt, you put forward a good argument. I was really replying to the people who blamed Sirius's suspicion of Lupin on out-and-out lycanphobia (cool word not invented by me). However, having been friends with Remus for so long, wouldn't Sirius know Remus's feelings on going to the bad side for whatever reason?

[jordmundt6]

Puffeskin-That's a good point. But, then we run into the Faust problem, or for our film addicts, the "Devil's Advocate" problem. Even if Remus is generally good, if Voldemort could show him that he could deliver on his heart's desire (to be normal again) wouldn't Remus take the bait? Wouldn't most people?

I think it would sorely tempt most.

[ArabellaBlack]

I just realized something, because I'm a little slow :)
Sirius didn't tell Remus that they had switched secret-keepers because he believed him to be the spy, and therefore, liable to torture the information out of Peter. I know, I know, sorry, I never consciously really thought about that.
Sirius and James strike me as very old friends, you know? Pre-Hogwarts. Lupin wasn't. He was a good friend of both of theirs, but Sirius and James sort of took him in... Peter fits in somwhere, too, either he was also an old friend, or Lupin made friends with him, but the fromer is probably more likely (it would explain Sirius's and James's blind spot toward him later).
It kind of seemed like everybody was against Remus. I don't know if he got very reclusive or anything after Hogwarts, because he still had to talk to James sometimes, otherwise he would have no inside information to give, and nobody would suspect him. So I think Sirius not trusting Remus was simple deduction, because he thought Peter to be inept, and vice versa...
Wow. I thought I had something to contribute, but I was just restating info already posted. Oops. Oh well. :)

[Puffskein]

Just thought...there could have been a rift between Sirius and Remus after the Shrieking Shack Incident. Then Sirius might not have had a clue what was going on in Remus's head.

[jordmundt6]

It doesn't appear that Remus disowned him. If anything one would think that James would distance himself and his friends from Sirius after the failed prank, but that didn't happen either.

[Weatherby]

I think Sirius was worried about facing Voldemort himself so he didn't give Lupin the credit to do so.
He didn't think Peter was any stronger than them but he figured no one would suspect him a secret keeper.

[ArabellaBlack]

Originally posted by Puffskein (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=297899#post297899))
Just thought...there could have been a rift between Sirius and Remus after the Shrieking Shack Incident. Then Sirius might not have had a clue what was going on in Remus's head.


Yeah, that would make sense... after Sirius told Snape, I'm assuming, right? And then Snape knew about Remus. Sheesh, Snape used that info against Remus twenty years later, imagine the torture he could have put Remus through when he was sixteen. I'd be pretty :censored: at Sirius, too. But he had a whole year to get over it, and I can't see Sirius being angry at Remus because of something that he did. *shrug* Meh. I'm just glad that they're friends now.

[supernatural]

i think sirius only suspected lupin because he completley overlooked peter.
basically they didn't suspect peter for the very same reason they made him secret keeper- it just didn't occur to them that it could be him. and they felt it wouldn't occur to anyone that peter would be made secret keeper- he wasn't obvious because he appears so weak willed- sirius knew that he would be the immediate target of dark wizards cos everyone knew how tight they were, and peter would be last target because he seemed so (for the lack of a better word) weak.

Peter is made out to be weak of mind as well as weak of power and looked at potter and sirius as heros- much like creevey and potter- would anyone suspect either creevies of being capable of handing harry over to voldemort?
(now i've thought about that- i might keep a more close eye on those two!)

[Puffskein]

Originally posted by Puffskein (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=296547#post296547)) However, having been friends with Remus for so long, wouldn't Sirius know Remus's feelings on going to the bad side for whatever reason?


I feel like expanding on my previous comment.
We, the readers, know that however much Lupin wants to be normal, he hasn't been tempted to the bad side (unless he's hiding it well). So you'd expect his good friend Sirius to realise that he wouldn't do such a thing. However, there was a lot of suspicion at that time, and it's likely that people weren't sure if they could trust their friends (which they couldn't in cases like Peter).

As an aside, I'm also wondering if Lupin's life really stinks quite as much as some people make out. Of course he is a Troubled Soul (part of the reason I love him so much) but there must be something that makes his life worth living and stops him becoming bitter and twisted. I'm guessing 1) Dumbledore's support and 2) chocolate.

[jordmundt6]

Do you own "Fantastic Beasts" there's a nice little section on werewolves near the back--how they're treated as subhuman even though they aren't, how they aren't trusted at all by the magical community, how they're ostracized and can't maintain a residence or employment for very long. There's even a mention of a book written in 1974 to try to get the point of a werewolf's tortured existence a cross because most wizards see them as man-eating beasts and not as the humans they are 90% of the time. It was called "Hairy Skin, Human Heart." And yes, I think Dumbledore's friendshp and support do a lot to help Lupin with his loneliness. P.S. It'd be real hard to be inconspicuous as a werewolf with a last name like that. Could one of his parents or other close relatives have bitten him?

[Goldie]

Remus' and Sirius' mistrust of each other is pretty easy to explain, I think.

When you're in a situation where you can't really be sure who's on who's side in a life-and-death struggle, it's probably normal to become suspicious of someone you never would have suspected in other circumstances. The general paranoia of the times was what caused Sirius and Remus to distrust each other. Things were so bad they couldn't get past their fears to what they really knew deep inside - that neither would have ever betrayed the Potters.

Another reason Sirius might have mistrusted Remus was not so much because he was a werewolf, but because being a werewolf made him susceptible to blackmail. Sirius probably felt that Remus wouldn't go bad on his own, but might have been forced into it to protect himself. I'm not saying that would have happened - I believe Remus would have stuck to his guns regardless of the personal fallout.

As for Peter, everyone from McGonagol on down saw him as out of his league when it came to the other three. I know he was one of the authors of the map, but I doubt he contributed as much as the others. They might have let him share the credit out of kindness more than anything else.

[jordmundt6]

Blackmail? Um--his condition is pretty widely known at least in higher-up circles. I think you can pretty much say from Dumbledore on down because Albus didn't even smell a rat (oh how obvious of me) when Sirius was brought in.

[Severely Snapped]

[i]Originally posted by ArabellaBlack
Yeah, that would make sense... after Sirius told Snape, I'm assuming, right? And then Snape knew about Remus. Sheesh, Snape used that info against Remus twenty years later, imagine the torture he could have put Remus through when he was sixteen. I'd be pretty :censored: at Sirius, too. But he had a whole year to get over it, and I can't see Sirius being angry at Remus because of something that he did. *shrug* Meh. I'm just glad that they're friends now.


But the rift could have been much deeper than that. It's not just that Black revealed Lupin's secret to Snape with his stupid stunt, but that he put Lupin in potential danger as well as Snape. I mean, he sent Severus Snape (you know, the Dark Arts poster boy?) into that tunnel to face his friend--how did he know Snape wouldn't blast Lupin with an "Avada Kedavra" or something, just out of sheer terror?

And even if things had worked out the way Black planned, would Lupin have appreciated being used as a murder weapon? I would have a very hard time forgiving a so-called friend who put me in that position.

Frankly, I find it amazing that Lupin could either forgive or trust Black again so readily. I know I couldn't.

[Moonstone]

Quite so. The ramifications for Lupin if Sirius' joke on Snape had not been aborted by James would have been terrible. Snape would have been dead or bitten and Lupin, if Snape did not kill him outright, would have been left with the blame and the guilt for having harmed another. It seems unlikely that he would have been allowed to finish school under the circumstances, as he would have been considered too dangerous. And his secret would have been revealed to all. Small wonder that Lupin had enough doubt about Sirius to believe that Sirius turned on the Potters. Sirius had already shown that he was able to place a friend at risk, and for a far more petty reason than serving the Dark Lord.

Sirius had less reason to distrust Lupin. Other than having the misfortune of being a werewolf, there is no evidence in the text that he ever did anything that would cause Sirius to doubt him. Sirius does not seem on the surface the type to fall for easy prejudices. His suspicions about Lupin either stemmed from some incident not yet revealed, or just because he did not think Peter was capable.

[Puffskein]

Originally posted by Severely Snapped (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=309363#post309363))Frankly, I find it amazing that Lupin could either forgive or trust Black again so readily. I know I couldn't.


He just seems to be the forgiving type. It isn't his style to hold grudges.

[jr119us]

Even if they trusted Sirius to be a better secret keeper then Dumbledore (which he obviously couldnt be) they probably would have known that Sirius would die because he was the secret keeper, so wouldnt they choose Dumbledore if they were even the slightest bit intelligent?

Really if you think about it, it would have been impossible for them to have been found if DD was the secret keeper. Any rational person would have gone with that option.

And plus, the lame plan to switch to Peter is like something out of a bad bad bad bad bad movie. "Its the last thing theyll expect!"
(insert barfing smiley here)

[jordmundt6]

Too much of a risk. If it came to a showdown between the two, what if DD lost? Far worse to lose him then for them to die or for one of their faithful friends to protect them in incredible odds. Plus, James was used to doing the impossible. If Harry had to go into hiding do you think there's any chance he'd ever knowingly let Dumbledore be his Secret-Keeper? No way.

[Barbara Kennedy]

Wouldn't this have been more appropriately posted in one of the threads dealing with the Potters or their Secret-Keeper?

[Schlubalybub]

They felt that it would be less likely for Peter to be the secret keeper than Sirius. Voldemort knew that Sirius was friends with them

[smartypants]

Originally posted by jr119us (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=310977#post310977))
Even if they trusted Sirius to be a better secret keeper then Dumbledore (which he obviously couldnt be)


Why not? The point of being a godo secret keeper is to not tell the secret. Not even under serious torture. We know Sirius can keep his head clear even when being submitted to Demetors, so obviously he has quialities that would make him an excellent secret keeper.

They also knew that whoever was their secret keeper would most likely be attacked by death eaters.

they probably would have known that Sirius would die because he was the secret keeper

If the DE could catch him yes. Which is another good reason not to use Dumbledore, because that would put Dumbledore at greater risk, and since he probably was at the center of the anti-Voldemort fight that time too, it would have been percieved as being too great a risk. Besides, it would probably have FORCED a showdown between Dumbledore and Voldemort, something Voldemort had avoided. Sure, WE know that Dumbledore would have won, but does Dumbledore and the Potters know that? :D

so wouldnt they choose Dumbledore if they were even the slightest bit intelligent?

Nevause doing so wouldn't have been any intelligent at all.

Now, choosing Pettigrew was obviously a bad decision. But the idea here was to use Sirius as the 'bait'. Let Voldemort go after Sirius, while Pettigrew would stay hidden, safe and thereby keeping the secret safe too. And it would have worked wonderful if Pettigrew hadn't been a death eater...

It probably came to be because they knew somebody was spying, and I guess the Potters suspected that it was Sirius or Lupin. Obviously they didn't have any seconds thoughts about Pettigrew at all, or they wouldn't have chosen him.

[FlyingPhoenix]

Maybe they were smarter as you think. First off all we don´t know if DD was aviable. It can be that he couldn´t be the secret keeper because of some things. They have know that there was a spy around them. So if they thought Lupin was the one than they might have know that he think first off all on DD as secret keeper. As second thought it would be Sirius that why they choice Wormtail.
I really think that DD was not aviable or they haven´t trust him. This is the only reason why they choice not him. We will learn more in few weeks how the true is

[dumbleedore]

If I was Lily and James and I was picking the person least likely to be suspected of being a secret keeper, I would have gone with Snape, once he came back to the good side of course. I mean, Voldemort would never ever guess that.

But there is obviously reasons as to why Peter was choosen (other than what we know) which will be revealed.

[FawkesBox]

Good point there. We can never assume we have all the information until the end of Book 7. Perhaps more information on the choice of Peter will come to the fore in the future showing us why it was the obvious choice.

Perhaps Sirius was the original secret keeper but then Lily performed a switching charm?

[lorna]

I've always thought that choosing Peter for secret keeper was a result of some pretty poor decision making and was based on years of friendship as opposed to evidence in front of their faces.
And I don't have a problem with that. i hate plots where the characters are so smart and so noble that anything that goes wrong has to be because suddenly the character has become an idiot. (case in point - Die Hard - Mr hans -1-2-3-bang! Gruber suddenly becomes Chatty Cathy at the very end giving the hero time to shoot him)
I don't think there is any more to Peter. I think his friends made a mistake that alot of friends make, trusting somebody they shouldn't have.

[Sirius83]

The books deal with trust. If you can't trust your friends, who can you trust? I think this was one of the reasons they did not use Dumbledore. It was to show the trust in a friend, and the betrayal of that trust.

[Auri DeMeer]

I suppose it was very bad times and nobody was sure about who to trust.
I also think Snape the spy played a big role in talking James and Lily out of choosing Black. He sowed doubt in his mind.

[FlyersFan]

I've always had a problem with them using Sirius, too. Sirius says that Peter should have died for the Potters, so Sirius ought to be willing to also. I've always wondered what would happen to the secret if the keeper died. Do they still keep it, or does someone else have to take over? In any event, I think the whole point was that James and Lily didn't want anyone to die. They thought that using Pettigrew would keep them safe, and Sirius wouldn't be in danger.

I still have a problem with Sirius though. Why would you suggest using a weaker person to keep such an important secret? He knew he could keep the secret, so why would he trust anyone else with that job?

[smartypants]

I guess he just doubted himself. It's easy to think that you would never say it, but the Crucatuis curse isn't any fun...

[JofpGallagher]

Originally posted by FlyersFan (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=311467#post311467))
In any event, I think the whole point was that James and Lily didn't want anyone to die. They thought that using Pettigrew would keep them safe, and Sirius wouldn't be in danger.

I still have a problem with Sirius though. Why would you suggest using a weaker person to keep such an important secret? He knew he could keep the secret, so why would he trust anyone else with that job?

I thought that the Potters didn't pick Pettigrew, rather it was Sirius who switched with Pettigrew. I remember that even Remus didn't know that until Sirius explained to him in the Shrieking Shack. The selection weight went more to Sirius than to the Potters. And, at that time nobody would have imagined how low Pettigrew was.

[lorna]

I think that's a good point. Using Peter seemed very much a Siruis idea.
Even Dumbledore wasn't in on the switch.

[onetruegryffindor]

remember they knew MoldyVoldy was after them so they switched hoping that everyone would go after Sirius...
if you think of it that way then they made the right choice
only they should have switched to Lupin not Pettigrew i guess they figured Pettigrew was the least likely to be in on MoldyVoldy what with him being so dumb and all

[Weatherby]

This topic could be merged with Is everything Sirius' fault? (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9099). Both threads place blame on everyone but Peter over the secret keeper issue. :)

His parents aren't stupid for trusting the wrong people. There may have been signs Peter wasn't the right choice but they probably had a lot to think over and didn't notice him.
Dumbledore may have had good reasons for not being their secret keeper. We don't know what was going on then.
We don't even know why Voldemort wanted to kill them. But I know their "stupidity" didn't cause their deaths. :)

[Capella]

About the Potters choosing Sirius over Voldemort...

James and Sirius have been compared to Fred and George Weasley. To me, James choosing Dumbledore instead of Sirius would be like Fred rejecting his brother.

James probably didn't have the trust that Harry has in Dumbledore - he was probably just a reasonably normal student, who didn't cross paths with the headmaster much. Most times he got into trouble he would have been sent to McGonagall after all. It's entirely possible that James ddin't even know Dumbledore well. So why would he turn away from his good friends who he trusts with his life, has shared many secrets with already, for a teacher he barely knows.
I don't think it was stupidity which made James and Lily decline Dumbledore's offer. Just trust in their friends.

[emikkime]

What I want to know is why Lily wasn't James' secret keeper and vice versa. It would have saved A LOT of trouble!

[Puffskein]

Remember that James and Sirius were inseperable best friends. Sirius was the obvious choice. It's likely that using Dumbledore would have been too risky. Switching to Peter was Sirius's idea - he thought it was "The perfect bluff". He wasn't to know what a literal rat Peter was.

I might add that if the Potters had been "The slightest bit intelliegent", we wouldn't have a story!

[smartypants]

Originally posted by emikkime (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=312697#post312697))
What I want to know is why Lily wasn't James' secret keeper and vice versa. It would have saved A LOT of trouble!


Because it was the same secret, and you maybe you can not be your own secret keeper?

[dumbleedore]

Originally posted by Capella (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=311937#post311937))
James probably didn't have the trust that Harry has in Dumbledore - he was probably just a reasonably normal student, who didn't cross paths with the headmaster much.

Actually, I believe Dumbledore states that he was close with James whilst he was at school and after that.

I just want to know one thing. If Snape was a DE, wouldn't he have seen Pettigrew? Wouldn't he have had some contact with the other DE's?

[RemusLupin]

I think as friends they didn't think one would betray the other. They trusted that Peter nor Sirius would sell them. They didn't think they would need to use Dumbledore-- their secret was safe with their friends.

And if I were them I would have done the same thing. Their plan was brilliant-- but because of that :censored: creep Wormtail some people considered that move not too smart. ;)

[Auri DeMeer]

Originally posted by dumbleedore (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=316407#post316407))
I just want to know one thing. If Snape was a DE, wouldn't he have seen Pettigrew? Wouldn't he have had some contact with the other DE's?

Pettigrew being a spy probably only Voldemort knew about him. Peter maybe didn't even have to attend the DE's meetings.

So Snape may have had no information about him at all. Or maybe he had just a bit of information: that one of James' closest friends was a traitor. In this case, Snape could have suspected Sirius or even Lupin before Peter, because Peter wasn't exactly the "type" for a DE. Especially if Peter was Gryffindor and Sirius Slytherin.

[ArabellaBlack]

What kills me is that picking Sirius and Wormtail as Secret-Keepers would imply that the Potters suspected Remus, unless there are some other people close to them that we didn't hear about, maybe Mundungus Fletcher and Arabella Figg. ONE of them had to be the spy, and if they trusted both Sirius and Pettigrew, they trusted Remus at least less. Or maybe that was just Sirius, who believed Remus, the smarter one, would have to have been the spy by default.

The Potters didn't pick Dumbledoreto keep him safe, I suppose. But it would have been better to have picked him, as Dumbledore was afraid of him... right? I dunno

[Barbara Kennedy]

Possibly Peter himself planted the seed of suspicion about Lupin in James or Lilly's ear, thereby making them distrust him just enough to not choose him as secret keeper.

[AvidSkyRise]

you have to remember that everyone trusted Peter then, they didn't know that he was a deatheater, they probably assumed he would be terrified of Voldemort and what he did. Nobody would ever assume that Peter would be the secret keeper and so they thought less people would attack him. I believe Sirius says that they wanted to chose him but he made them chose peter.

[Barbara Kennedy]

I think that Wormtail himself planted the seed of distrust about Lupin, causing him not to be chosen as the Potter's Secret Keeper. I don't have any idea if it was part of a plot to become their Secret Keeper or not.

[harp230]

That would make sence that he was the one who tried to create the distrust. I would say that it was part of the plot. Why would they choose him over Lupin if they were seeking to change the secret keeper? Maybe wormtail led Sirius to the conclusion that he should not be the secret keeper. And then to avoid making it look like he wanted the job, he planted the idea that Lupin was a DE to eliminate him as a possible secret keeper and make him the obvious choice.

[Merenwen Nenharma]

I was rereading PoA and I was just wondering why not many people in the Wizarding World know that Sirius was the Potters' secretkeeper? I mean, of course we (the readers), Lupin, Dumbledore, Harry, Ron and Hermione know it was actually Pettigrew. And another thing..why doesn't Dumbledore say anyhting about Sirius's innocence? I mean he has so much respect and stuff, surely some people will belive him, won't they? Or does he think he will be fired for that? Does that mean he's no better that Cornelius Fudge?

[Picko]

Not many people knew that Sirius was the meant to be the Potter's secret keeper because it is in fact a secret. No one is supposed to be told, therefore nobody knew that Peter became the Potter's secret keeper - not even Dumbledore.

Dumbledore for all his respect, power and achievement does not have absolute influence over happening in the wizarding world. His word does not suddenly make things legitimate and as he said before the only other people who can confirm the story are two children and a werewolf - hardly people likely to swing a jury or prove Sirius' innocence. The wizarding world has a legal system that cannot be simply overthrown by one wizard just because he holds a position of power.

[Merenwen Nenharma]

You're right about not many people knowing that Sirius was meant to be their secret keeper. But what about after it all happened? Then only a handful of people (Mcgonagall, Fudge, Hagrid) knew that he was meant to be their secret keeper. Why didnt the story get around. And another thing, so not even Dumbledore knew it was actually Pettigrew? That part makes more sense now.

[Alastor D]

Originally posted by Merenwen Nenharma (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=319643#post319643))
..why doesn't Dumbledore say anyhting about Sirius's innocence? I mean he has so much respect and stuff, surely some people will belive him, won't they? Or does he think he will be fired for that? Does that mean he's no better that Cornelius Fudge?


You may find the answer in the thread "Sirius Black -- will he ever have his name cleared?" in the Great Hall :)

[Nickel]

I have a question somewhat related to this..

Was the spell to hide the Potters preformed by Lily, James, Peter, or someone else?
I only ask because if it was someone else, the apparantly someone knew that Peter was the Secret Keeper.

[JofpGallagher]

I think it had to be performed by Lily & James. So only them can conjure the charm and empower someone (Pettigrew) to set it off. I think it is not possible to conjure it themeselves since it has to be an outsider who find them. I mean, once somebody is under this charm, hs kinda lost to the public eyes?

[Weatherby]

I think Lupin and Dumbledore eliminated the list after Sirius was incarcerated for killing Peter. If he betrayed one friend why not another? At least from Dumbledore's perspective.

Now the question is did Lupin know they'd need a secret keeper or did he not know he wasn't trusted before?

This topic could be merged with Why did Black suspect Lupin (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7634) to be a thread about the Potters secret keeper. :) :)

[rotsiepots]

Originally posted by Weatherby (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=320797#post320797))
This topic could be merged with Why did Black suspect Lupin (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7634) to be a thread about the Potters secret keeper. :) :)


Thanks, Lauren, I think I might just do that. :)

I'm merging this with the topic Weatherby suggested to create an all inclusive thread about the Potters' Secret Keeper.

[Barbara Kennedy]

I imagine we will learn more about the Fidelius Charm when Harry is told about why and how his parents were killed. Right now all we can do is guess.

[sugarquill]

I dont think that Lupin wasnt trusted by the potters. However,his being a werewolf made him a less than ideal choice, he was unavailable every full moon. What if they needed to get intouch with him during that time, what if there was an emergency. Lupin was hindered by his affliction and that spilled over to his axing as a secret keeper candidate. I think that he understood that tho, and didnt feel overlooked by the Potters. Oh and I'm sure he knew about the secret keeper deal, we saw that in POA.

[Weatherby]

If they were all aware of the possible secret keepers then if they didn't trust one enough they were all at risk. Even if Peter hadn't been chosen he'd know either Lupin or Sirius were.

Voldemort could kill/torture them off one by one until they had no one left to protect them.

[Schlubalybub]

Originally posted by Barbara Kennedy (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=322044#post322044))
I imagine we will learn more about the Fidelius Charm when Harry is told about why and how his parents were killed. Right now all we can do is guess.


then again, not long to wait now, is there?

[sugarquill]

I think that Peter, Sirus and Remus all knew about the secret keeper, why else would Lupin accept Sirus' version of events so quickly in the shack. What they didnt know was who among them would get chosen, that i think, is what remained a secret.

[Schlubalybub]

they didnt know who would be chosen, none of them knew apart from Peter. Sirius and Lupin didnt know who it was apart from that is wasnt them!

[Nickel]

[i]Originally posted by sugarquill
I think that Peter, Sirus and Remus all knew about the secret keeper, why else would Lupin accept Sirus' version of events so quickly in the shack. What they didnt know was who among them would get chosen, that i think, is what remained a secret.


I think Lupin accepted Sirus version of the events so quickly because he saw Peter on the Map, which is why he went to the Shreiking Shack in the first place. Since Sirus' story made sense and they new Peter could transfigure into a rat, Lupin accepted what Sirus said as the only possible answer.

[Merenwen Nenharma]

But wouldnt you believe Peter's version of events. It was only until he admitted that he did betray Lily and James the I believed Sirius. Other wise, what Peter was saying was making sense. He COULD have benn hiding from fear of Voldie's supporters, who would kill him had they known that he brought their master's downfall? But then again, if Voldemort was gone, then he could have also not hidden, b/c Voldie's supporter were being rounded up and losing power? So in the end, what was he hidin from. Man, PoA is my favourite book, but it also confuses me the most. Could someone PLEASE explain this all to me?

[Barbara Kennedy]

All I can say is read some of the threads about what is confusing you. There is a lot of intelligent discussion about almost every aspect of the stories in here.

[sugarquill]

He was a liar merenwen. He said anything and everything to escape the wrath of all those who have been burned by him. The potterites were after him the voldiites were too. In the end he went to the only one who had even less morals than he, Voldi himself. In POA he said whatever he thought would save his neck, he changed his story 58 times in the shack.

[Merenwen Nenharma]

So he was hidin from voldie's gang and the Potters' friends. Oh i get it..so he was hiding from all of them. So if Voldie's gang found him before Lupin and Sirius, he would have pleaded that he was with them all along and only thought he was helping Voldemort?

[Puffskein]

Peter was in trouble with the Death Eaters because he led Voldemort to his downfall in trying to kill Harry.

On Nickel's point - the reason Lupin gives for not trusting Peter's story is the fact that he didn't reveal himself, like Sirius did. "Why hasn't he shown himself before now?...I have difficulty seeing why an innocent man would want to spend twelve years as a rat."

[Lupins Ladee]

Plus I think Remus also accepted the story so easily because I don't think Remus and Peter were as close as the other two. I know I have a group of friends and I prefer to stick with a couple and I don't really like hanging out with one of them one on one. I think that's how Remus and Peter were in school. They were the friends that were never close. So I think Remus doubted Sirius' guilt all along and he accepted that it was Peter b/c he never really trusted/liked him.

[Merenwen Nenharma]

But what if the reason he never showed himself is because he was afraid the death eaters would kill him. Or say that it was him who let voldemort go to the potters..b/c they wanted him to suffer in azkaban. they wouldnt care if it was pettigrew or sirius who went to azkaban. I'm mean i'm not doubting that pettigrew wasnt guilty, the only thing that is driving me crazy is WHY did lupin believe his story so easily?? pls explain this.

[Girl]

Lupin believed Sirius story when he say Peter on the Map. It proved that Peter was not dead which ment that he must be hidding something. Why else would he be hidding as a rat? Lupin like everyone else at first thought that Sirius was the guilty one. It was only after he saw Peter that he has second thoughts. Seeing Peter onthe Map made it easy for Lupin to believe Sirius story as Sirius must be telling the truth since Peter is alive.

[dantares]

In book 1, Dumbledore still did not know that Sirius was not the actual secret keeper because he did gave edvidence against Sirius. So when the Potters were killed, he should be the first one to go and find Sirius. Yet when Hargid mentioned Sirius's whereabouts (his motorbike),
I was told to post here.

Dumbledore reacts normally. He should have asked Hargid where he is and tell Hargid to catch him as he have reasons to believe Sirius was the cause of Potter's death. Any ideas why Dumbledore did not react strongly when he first heard Sirius name right after the murder yet after some time, gave evidence against him.

Maybe Dumbledore knew all along that Sirius was not the actual keeper because he is telepathtic. Notice how he is always able to read people's mind. But he do not want to mess with the future because he had already seen it all. He knew that Sirius will be framed and so choose to give evidence against him?

[sarcasticx514]

Originally posted by dantares (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=350403#post350403))
In book 1, Dumbledore still did not know that Sirius was not the actual secret keeper because he did gave edvidence against Sirius. So when the Potters were killed, he should be the first one to go and find Sirius. Yet when Hargid mentioned Sirius's whereabouts (his motorbike),
I was told to post here.

Dumbledore reacts normally. He should have asked Hargid where he is and tell Hargid to catch him as he have reasons to believe Sirius was the cause of Potter's death. Any ideas why Dumbledore did not react strongly when he first heard Sirius name right after the murder yet after some time, gave evidence against him.

Maybe Dumbledore knew all along that Sirius was not the actual keeper because he is telepathtic. Notice how he is always able to read people's mind. But he do not want to mess with the future because he had already seen it all. He knew that Sirius will be framed and so choose to give evidence against him?


Dumbledore didn't know that Sirius actually commited the murder (or supposedly did) until the day after, when Sirius went to find Peter, and Peter made a big scene about him killing the Potters. Remember, he blew himself up (but turned into Scabbers), and Sirius was there in shock because he was confronting him with that. Peter killed some muggles and wizard, and Sirius than got sent to Azkaban.

Now about Dumbledore not knowing about Sirius being the actual keeper. The Potters told him it would be someone other than Sirius, and he offered to do the job, because the way Voldemort is so scared of Dumbledore. He did not go against Sirius at all, but didn't know what happened and who told Voldemort where Gordic Hollow was.

[DocHollidaywe]

Originally posted by FoolOnTheHill (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=250481#post250481))
Here's my take on it: Sirius knew that someone close to the Potters was giving Voldemort tips about them. He didn't think Pettigrew was capable of this, so by narrowing it down he thought it might be Lupin. Same goes for Lupin suspecting Sirius.


Who would suspect Peter?

[Lupins Ladee]

I would have suspected Peter before Remus and Sirius and I will tell you why. I can see how Remus and Sirius suspected each other b/c they were directly involved in the situation. But IMO an outside observer should have been able to pick this up.
Peter was a tag along he stayed with the strongest therefore, he would drop his current buddies for stronger ones in a second. He prob never forged an emotional connection knowing that at any moment he might have to drop the Mauraders.
McGonagall said he was never up to par and that she was hard on him. All his friends also assumed that he was to weak and pathetic to betray them. So since they were straight out of the British equivalent of High School I can contest being almost out of high school that you don't like being labeled. You want to do something to get rid of that label.
Plus he figured his "friends" thought he was a loser (and you can't hide your true feelings about someone no matter what. You know when your friends think you are stupid or pathetic) so why not go to Volde and prove he wasn't. It prob doesn't hurt when Volde berates him as much as it did when people who "cared" about him did. I mean Snape doesn't even have a specific hate for Peter. When Snape doesn't care about your existance enough to hate you then you are in trouble.
So I think an observer who was aware to the situation and knew those involved but was not directly involved should have know. Someone like Sirius' girlfriend or someone's parent.
Plus Sirius did alot of stupid things that if they were avoided he would not have been framed.

[Jessicatwin]

thats a really good comment, but i dont think some outside person would even know about the situation, because this had peoples lives at stake, and they wouldnt just tell anyone like their parents or girlfriends, so no one would have caught it anyway.only they new no one else.

[Lupins Ladee]

Hmm Good Point Jessicatwin. I just thought they must have trusted someone enough to tell them about it and the whole Wizarding World (except for Madam Rosie but now she does) seems to know the Whole story so I assumed someone must have been observing at the time.

[GlassRoses314]

What I want to know is, what made Lily and James suspect Lupin? And what made Lily and James doubt Dumbledore? Now if any one of us got transported into the wizarding world and had to hide from Voldemort via the Fidelius Charm who would be the first person we'd trust as Secret Keeper? Dumbledore!

So Dumbledore offers to be Secret Keeper to Lily and James and they deny his offer and use Sirius instead. Why? What on earth would make them not use Dumbledore as their Secret Keeper?

Let's look at it from Lily and James's point of view: You have to go into hiding to protect your son from what was said in the Prophecy. Someone in your close circle of friends is thought to have turned traitor and is feeding information to Voldemort. Since no-one suspects Peter, that leaves it down to Sirius and Remus. Now since James and Sirius were best friends, James naturally trusts Sirius with everything he has. So it must be Lupin... or is there more to it than that? What about Lupin would make them point the finger at him? Was it the fact that he's a werewolf? Can't be, because if that was it, than they wouldn't have remained friends with him upon finding out his secret all those years ago. Lupin was ready to kill Peter in the blink of an eye in the Shrieking Shack, so something leads me to believe (as much as I hate doubting Lupin) that he has a shady side to his personality. Perhaps his transformations required him to take some time off from everything, as he wasn't feeling up to fighting with the Order, and that (with the hysteria of Voldemort) caused everyone to believe that Lupin was skivving off to report to Voldemort. Arthur Weasley said that it was a very confusing time as you didn't know who to trust and who not to trust. So poor Lupin because of that fact and his monthly dissapearances, gets the finger pointed at him.

So ok here we are... we've narrowed it down that Lupin is the traitor (still looking from Lily and James's point of view), we've got Sirius, Peter, and Dumbledore left, to choose as our Secret-Keeper. As Peter is a meak sort of tag-along and not really payed much attention to, that leaves us with Sirius and Dumbledore. Both very trustworthy allies. What would cause Lily and James to appoint Sirius as their Secret-Keeper over Dumbledore? Ok Sirius and James have been best buds since school... when you have a known traitor in your midst... Why on earth would you even think about not using Dumbledore? Ok I trust Sirius as much as let's say James did... but I also trust Lupin just as equally. So if I'm presented with the horrible fact that one of my friends is a traitor, and I live in a time when you have absolutley no idea who to trust, AND I'm a member of the Order which is lead by...Dumbledore...WHY ON EARTH would I trust anyone other than Dumbledore as my Secret Keeper? Dumbledore was their leader, he was the exact opposite of Voldemort (the guy the Potters were totally against, and in hiding because of), they put their life at risk to fight for Dumbledore's cause, why oh why would they choose Sirius instead? This leads me to believe that either a) Lily and James made a big mistake and just didn't think it through or b) Dumbledore was, for reasons unknown, somewhat untrustworthy at that point in time. What do you think of the situation from Lily and James's point of view? We already know why Sirius doubted Lupin and vice versa. And from Dumbledore's point of view, he didn't know which of the Potter's friends could be trusted, so they were all an equal threat. What about the Potters? How was their choice of Secret Keeper logical?

[Puffskein]

It gets up my nose somewhat when people say "Weren't the Potters stupid for not choosing Dumbledore?" We don't know the whole stuation yet. There might have been some sort of perceived or actual risk involved in choosing DD. Perhaps the Potters weren't convinced that Voldemort was afraid of him, and didn't want to endanger the cause of the Order by putting their leader at risk.

From James's point of view, Sirius was the obvious choice. They were more than "best buds", they were inseparable, like brothers. So James would never have dreamed that Sirius would be the traitor, and thought Peter was too stupid. That left Remus by default. I don't think that means there was necessarily something shady about him, just that in those days people didn't know who to trust, and the suspicion fell on Remus by elimination.

Plus, it had to happen that way or we wouldn't have a story!

[GlassRoses314]

LoL Puffskein I suppose so.

Still though it bugs me. If only they'd have chosen Dumbledore... Sirius would never have had to go to Azkaban and might still be alive. Obviously I can't pin it down to the Potters for Sirius's death but you just go through these what if periods and I guess this is just another one. Although no one's ever really looked at it from the Potter's point of view (not that I've seen anyway) and I thought it might be interesting to discuss. I think it is one of my favourite sub-plots in the series.

[Pumpkin Juice]

Ooh! I was just thinking about this topic and did a search and found this thread. (YEA!) I was wondering, where in the books does it talk about Sirius not trusting Lupin? I don't remember that part. Was it in the Shrieking Shack scene at the end of book 3?

[Puffskein]

Yes - when Peter asks Lupin why the Potters didn't tell him about the change of plan (I don't have the page numbers).

[starxgazer]

I believe it was Lupin, because remember when Harry, Hermione, &Ron were on the train in POA on pg. 76 Harry was telling Hermione and Ron what he had heard Ron's mom and dad arguing about [that Sirius was after Harry.] And Harry's Sneakascope went off, and Lupin was sleeping in the compartment they were in. So, Lupin is untrustful, because I doubt that Harry, Ron or Hermione are untrustful.

[Luna27]

Stargazer...the sneakoscope kept going off because Scabbers was with Ron the whole time. Ron thought it wasn't any good because it kept going off..but it happened when he had Scabbers/Peter with him. Besides, not trusting someone and having the sneakoscope go off are two different things. It goes off in the presence of someone who is not trustworty...so you may trust them (hence Ron thinking Scabbers is just his pet), but they may be up to no good.

[evil_by_nature_dm]

yea, well, back then it was hard to trust ANYBODY..... the potters had info that someone close to them was sneaking around, and it turned out to be wormtail, but in the meantime the three friends and the potters really couldnt trust each other that much because they were wondering who was doing what.

[heirofslytherin_dm]

This is true. I mean they had to pick someone who they thought had the leastlikely chance of going up to Voldy with this info. And naturally who did they pick, scared little Wormtail. Who would have thought (besides Voldy) that he would be up to that. I mean of course he would love the recognition and "dignity" that that brought him, but he had the shortcoming of not noticing what consequences it really held.

[Wep]

One thing that I have always wondered about regarding the Marauders, is why they started to suspect each other, primarily Sirius and Lupin, as to who was they spy among the order.
Sirius suspected Remus (as mentioned in the Shrieking Shack) and vice versa.
James suspected Remus and not Sirius (otherwise they wouldn't have made Sirius godfather)
And noone suspected Wormtail.

Why?


Ok, I did do a seach on this topic, three in fact, but couldn't find anything similar. There were threads on Remus, Wormtail and Sirius, but none that I could find which looked at the why they suspected each other during the first war. If I'm wrong, please shut down the thread and tell me where to go :D

[alpha_hazard]

I think Lupin says, "nobody knew who to suspect"

I can imagine Lupin thought black was the traitor because of what he heard through the daily prophet, I remember reading that he hadn't been in contact with Sirius for some time. Also, because of Sirius's past, with cruel pranks such as the one involving Snape, I can see how Lupin might also reason this as well...

Sirius did not suspect lupin. I think he had since forgotten about lupin and was more worried about protecting james and lily, so he switched with Peter. Who unfortunately nobody suspected (aside from perhaps somebody like dumbledore)

[MagicMuggle]

Well, I think it's because they didn't think much of Wormtail when it came to intelligents. With Remus...Well, lets just say he's got brains! I think that they suspected him because:
-He thinks things through, and he was very quite and almost capable of anything.
-Sirius wouldn't have been suspected since he and James were like this. *crosses fingers*
-They probably figured that Wormtail would be too scared to even think of the name Voldemort.

Well, I hope that helps! :)

[fleur magique]

The reason that Lupin suspected Sirius and both Sirius and James suspected Lupin was because they thought that Wormtail would be too much of a coward to be the traitor. Everyone thought that Voldemort would have tried to get the most powerful witches and wizards on his side. No one thought that he would make pathetic little Wormtail a death eater. And since Lupin knew that he wasn't the spy, and James obviously wasn't the spy, and he just assumed that Wormtail was too weak to be the spy, so the only other person close enough to the Potters was Sirius. And like wise for Sirius thinking Lupin was the spy. He thought Wormtail was too weak, James defintily wasn't it and neither was he , so that only left Lupin, and since James was better friends with Sirius than he was with Lupin, he was more inclined to believe him over Remus.

[Wep]

I always thought Wormtail wasn't suspected for the same reasons, they didn't think he had the ability...but I also thought that he may have put suspicion on the others to take the heat away from himself.

And Sirius did suspect Remus, he says so in the Shrieking Shack scene (Chapter 19- The Servant of Lord Voldemort, pg 273 (Australian version))....but why? I though perhaps because he was doing things for the order that the others didn't know of, maybe explaining his absence- but I would have though DD would have squashed any suspicion of Remus if that were the case.

[Siriusly_Addicted]

The reason that Lupin suspected Sirius and both Sirius and James suspected Lupin was because they thought that Wormtail would be too much of a coward to be the traitor. Everyone thought that Voldemort would have tried to get the most powerful witches and wizards on his side. No one thought that he would make pathetic little Wormtail a death eater. And since Lupin knew that he wasn't the spy, and James obviously wasn't the spy, and he just assumed that Wormtail was too weak to be the spy, so the only other person close enough to the Potters was Sirius. And like wise for Sirius thinking Lupin was the spy. He thought Wormtail was too weak, James defintily wasn't it and neither was he , so that only left Lupin, and since James was better friends with Sirius than he was with Lupin, he was more inclined to believe him over Remus.

I agree. It was the process of elimination, but they all eliminated the wrong one. Sirius explicitly states in PoA that he never dreamed that Voldemort would use such a weak talentless excuse for a wizard as Wormtail, and I didn't hear Remus disagree with him.

As for why only the marauders, they were probably the only ones who could have done it. I doubt James and Lily were advertising their whereabouts, so it would only be their closest friends who kept in contact with them: Remus, Sirius, Wormtail, and Dumbledore (maybe McGonagall). Dumbledore mentioned to Harry, after the MoM fight in OotP, that James and Lily had escaped Voldemort three times. I suspect the list of people who had any idea at all where they were got smaller after each escape. At the end, it was apparently only Sirius, Wormtail and Dumbledore who knew where they were because they had weeded everyone else out.

[winter snow]

They used the process of elimination butwith flawed thinking. They didn't think that Wormtail would be the most obvious choice. After all, Wormtail was the LEAST likely (in their thinking) out of all of them because of his poor magical ability. They never gave Wormtail a second thought.

[HermioneLuna]

You have to understand what was happening with the entire wizarding world at that time. People were probably willing to sacrifice their own child to Voldemort's cause, so they wouldn't think twice about handing over their best friend. As Peter proved, even the closest of friends couldn't be trusted.

Also, it's mentioned in Prisoner of Azkaban that it had long been thought that there was a spy on the inside. Either it's stated or implied that someone very close to the Potters was leaking information to Voldemort because (and this may not be in the books but it's probably implied) he was always right on the Potters' trail. So it had to be someone on the inside. The choices we know existed for this were Dumbledore, Sirius, Lupin, and Peter. I think it goes without saying that Dumbledore was not and is not working for Voldemort. No one suspected Peter because he was so pointless as a wizard and that left Sirius and Lupin. Sirius knew he wasn't the spy, which probably led him to think it was Lupin. Lupin knew he wasn't the spy, which probably led him to think it was Sirius. If Sirius was going to be the secret keeper and he thought Lupin was the spy, then he would suggest Peter.

It was just a time when people didn't know who to trust or believe. It was a time for hightened paranoia and being blind to a threat for no other reason than because that threat is your friend was not something that anyone could afford to do.

[Wep]

I just hoped it was more than a process of elimination. I'm not saying that wasn't a huge part of it, I'm sure it was...but I still think there is something more too it. And I think there would have been a few others that were close to the Potters, than we know of.

[Gwenog Jones]

When you have a close knit group of friends, especially when you've known them for a long time, you know exactly when something is a little "off" in the group. You can tell when something in the dynamic of the group is different, even though if you don't know exactly what it is. The Marauders could probably tell that something was strange between them, and then when it came time to think of who could possibly the spy they all suspected one another.

[grrliz]

One thing that I have always wondered about regarding the Marauders, is why they started to suspect each other, primarily Sirius and Lupin, as to who was they spy among the order.
Sirius suspected Remus (as mentioned in the Shrieking Shack) and vice versa.
James suspected Remus and not Sirius (otherwise they wouldn't have made Sirius godfather)
And noone suspected Wormtail.

Why?First, I agree with fleur magique's process of elimination. James couldn't be the spy (obviously), everyone refused to suspect Peter, therefore the only people left were Remus and Sirius, so they secretly pointed to the other as the Snitch. Of course, they eliminated the wrong suspect, but hey, we wouldn't have the stories if that hadn't happened. :)

As to why they started suspecting each other... HermioneLuna mentioned that there had been a spy in their midst for over a year (either said in PoA or an interview), that it was clearly an "inside" job. My favourite idea is of poor "pathetic" Peter Pettigrew sitting around sewing seeds of discord (as was Voldemort's favourite past time) amongst his friends, making sly asides to Sirius about Lupin and to Lupin about Sirius. Making them paranoid, see? And you know what they say, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you. Each of the Marauders, and more specifically Lupin and Sirius, probably sat long and hard thinking about whether or not they were really entertaining thoughts about one of their best friends being a traitor. That has to be a tough decision to make, deciding that yes, one of your best friends is passing information to the Dark Lord and plotting their deaths. You don't make that type of decision lightly. It wasn't a case of Dumbledore saying "Oops, there's a spy in your midst! Figure out who it is!" and then the four of them doing the process of elimination thing like us. I'd like to think both Sirius and Lupin would sit down and really think about why they suspected the other (Lupin might draw up a "Pros" and "Cons" list as to why he thought Sirius was guilty :) ). No doubt they might think of the little asides Peter had been whispering in their respective ears. Discord, I tell you, discord.

They had been best friends for ten years. The spy turned on them despite their history, but I'd like to think they'd initially give the spy the benefit of the doubt. Well, I know Lupin would. Not so sure about Sirius. :)

As for why only the marauders, they were probably the only ones who could have done it. I doubt James and Lily were advertising their whereabouts, so it would only be their closest friends who kept in contact with them: Remus, Sirius, Wormtail, and Dumbledore (maybe McGonagall). Dumbledore mentioned to Harry, after the MoM fight in OotP, that James and Lily had escaped Voldemort three times. I suspect the list of people who had any idea at all where they were got smaller after each escape. At the end, it was apparently only Sirius, Wormtail and Dumbledore who knew where they were because they had weeded everyone else out.That's an interesting theory I've never heard before! Someone mentioned (or maybe I just made it up while reading, cause I can't seem to find it now) that there were, of course, other members in the original Order. The group close to the Potters was whittled down not only because of the reasons you suggested, Siriusly_Addicted, but also for the pure logistical reason that the Death Eaters were picking off the Order one by one and there were simply less of them at that point. I've been playing around with the thought for a while now that initially the spy was someone else in the Order and that they "passed the torch" so to speak to Pettigrew just before the first spy decided to go fully over to Voldemort's side. It makes even more sense to me now that you mention this idea of the shrinking circle since, despite his apparent ineptness, Pettigrew would have been right in that inner circle, the perfect position in which to be the Dark Lord's spy.

[Wep]

It wasn't a case of Dumbledore saying "Oops, there's a spy in your midst! Figure out who it is!" and then the four of them doing the process of elimination thing like us. I'd like to think both Sirius and Lupin would sit down and really think about why they suspected the other (Lupin might draw up a "Pros" and "Cons" list as to why he thought Sirius was guilty )

I agree, I just would like to see what their pro and con list said. I think that there had to be something outside of a processs of elimination, that would make you believe that one of your best friends was a spy.

[Marcy]

I absolutely agree that the seeds of doubt were planted by Pettigrew...

Also, do not forget, that many Wizards were acting under the Imperious curse, so just because they thought that one of their own was the spy does not mean that they thought there was a for sure actual "betrayal"

[Wep]

I never thought about considering the Imperius curse as a possible option for why they may have considered each other as a spy...I have a feeling that Lupin was acting oddly for some reason to increase suspicion on him...

[ramones]

The reason that Lupin suspected Sirius and both Sirius and James suspected Lupin was because they thought that Wormtail would be too much of a coward to be the traitor. Everyone thought that Voldemort would have tried to get the most powerful witches and wizards on his side. No one thought that he would make pathetic little Wormtail a death eater. And since Lupin knew that he wasn't the spy, and James obviously wasn't the spy, and he just assumed that Wormtail was too weak to be the spy, so the only other person close enough to the Potters was Sirius. And like wise for Sirius thinking Lupin was the spy. He thought Wormtail was too weak, James defintily wasn't it and neither was he , so that only left Lupin, and since James was better friends with Sirius than he was with Lupin, he was more inclined to believe him over Remus.


As to why they started suspecting each other... HermioneLuna mentioned that there had been a spy in their midst for over a year (either said in PoA or an interview), that it was clearly an "inside" job. My favourite idea is of poor "pathetic" Peter Pettigrew sitting around sewing seeds of discord (as was Voldemort's favourite past time) amongst his friends, making sly asides to Sirius about Lupin and to Lupin about Sirius. Making them paranoid, see?

Exactly!
It took me a while to actually understand that they knew there was a spy. This person was clearly close to the Potters. Sirius knew it wasn't James, and knew that he (Sirius) wasn't the spy. Who else was close to them? DD a spy? Please. Wormtail? He's worthless. Lupin? The most suitable candidate.

The same thing goes for Lupin. Was he going to suspect DD or James? Of course not. The only alternatives were Peter and Sirius. The logical choice was Sirius.

I agree that Wormtail was spreading rumors and stuff like that. He definitely is sly and cunning, definitely worthy of being in Slytherin.

[lewis8604]

I absolutely agree that the seeds of doubt were planted by Pettigrew...

Also, do not forget, that many Wizards were acting under the Imperious curse, so just because they thought that one of their own was the spy does not mean that they thought there was a for sure actual "betrayal"

very good point that was what i was thinking. Maybe remus thought since Sirius family was evil the DE would be easier to find him and put him under the curse. Or maybe thay had te curse out on them in school and Sirius didn't guard it well?

[aggiefan1206]

I dont think they believe wormtail stong or smart enough to do something like that. I dont know why sirius and lupin would suspect each other. I think that they really didnt know who to suspect. They should have though of Peter Pettigrews animagus (rat) what do rats usually do. Im supprised they didnd suspect him

[dumbleedore]

From what we know of Sirius, he doesn't seem like the sort of bloke to 'kiss and make up'- As ggrliz mentioned in her post, Peter could've been going from Sirius to Remus, making up stories, turning them against each other. And from all appearences, Sirius could have seen to have believed them and cut Remus out of his life and been thankful to Peter for Peter showing him what Remus thought. Sirius was a lot closer to James than the other two, me thinks, and with the stuff Peter had told him, Sirius obviously convinced James that Remus was the spy. Remus was probably suspiscious of Sirius, thanks to Peter, so I'm assuming they had a falling out. By this stage, Sirius obviously has a lot of trust in Peter, and that's why he suggested Peter for secret keeper. After Lily and James were murdered and the truth became known amongst the friends, I can imagine Sirius forgiving Remus instantly, which, after his time in Azkaban, which gave him 12 years to think it over, lead to the shrieking shack scene of instant forgiveness.

[Barbara Kennedy]

These threads may hold some helpful insights as well.

Why were James, Remus and Sirius friends with Peter? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=24351)
Pettigrew not a traitor? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=31589)
Pettigrew and Godric’s Hollow (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=22017)
Would James really have saved Pettigrew’s life? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=16028)
What was Peter Pettigrew’s job before his “death”? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=24386)
The Potters and their Secret Keeper (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=7634)

[Phinea]

It must be true that in the end there was only a very small group of people who where close to the Potters. All of them were absolut trustworthy on first sight but one among them must be passing informations to Voldemort. There was DD, maybe one or two very close friends of Lily and the Marauders (James' family must have been death by then because Petunia was "the only family" Harry has left). So everybody knows that the spy must be someone which they would never suspected. They must have all become very suspicious. I can see for example Sirius starting to suspect Lupin and acting different towards him even when he wasn't sure if he really was the spy. Lupin would notice his strange behaivour and starting to suspect him because of this and start to act different towards him, too...
Maybe in the end even prejudices play a role, which would never have any importance when there was someone else to suspect (Lupin as a werewolf and Sirius because of his family background).
I think it is true that Peter is much more cunning than he seems to be on first sight and could be able to make them suspect each other instead of suspecting him. Not by simply saying: "Remus is the spy", which Jeames and Sirius wouldn't believe and instead might make them suspecting Peter himself but by saying something like: "Remus couldn't be the spy, he doesn't know anything about (some important information about the Potters) and he is only half blood and... he is much to nice to be a spy" and Sirius answering: "How thick are you Wormtail? He did know about (some important information about the Potters) i told him while you were standing next to me, and there are couple of half blood Death Eaters and being nice wouldn't stop him from spying."

[no1 potter fan]

maybe it was like nobody suspected PQ in Philosiphers stone he pretended to be weak and a scardey. But pettigrew was a whimp he always went with the "big boys" I don't think anyone thought that he had the guts to betray his friends.

[Weatherby]

It's obvious they didn't respect Peter or consider him important enough. Boy were they wrong. That's exactly why he was easy prey to someone like Voldemort.
The best spy is always going to be the person you don't want it to be or the one you don't think the other side would want.

I'd like to think Sirius didn't suspect Lupin because he's part wearwolf.. That would be seriously to his discredit if he had.
But then why? I don't know if we'll ever get a clearer answer other than Voldemort being supremely good at spreading discord.
How he does it we may never know.
It seems wizards do it for him for the most part.

[Spirit]

I'm sure it was very hard for James and Lily to decide that it was Lupin who was the traitor. It really was just elimination, like many of you guys already said. Sirius most likely wouldn't betray them because he was James' very best friend in the whole wide world. Peter probably wouldn't have the guts to go and seek Voldemort unless his life depended on it. And Remus probably wouldn't because he... was good-willed.... Wasn't he? Or could he have changed his ways? That's probably what the Potter's thought. They didn't think that Peter would go to Voldemort because he was scared of Voldemort. Remus had the weakest evidence. So, they had to go with that.

[Wep]

I'd like to think Sirius didn't suspect Lupin because he's part wearwolf.. That would be seriously to his discredit if he had.

I agree...I don't see Lupin being a werewolf as something they would have used against him.

As for elimination...I still think it's missing something. I know Voldermort was able to spread such emnity and distrust...and I'm sure that he played a big role in it, as did Wormtail most likely. But I think there has to be more than just that for them to suspect their oldest friends than just elimination

[Wep]

Because the why suspect Sirius thread was closed, I figured we could open the debate up in here, as it is a huge part of this thread (and something that I would like to know).

Was Sirius suspected as being the traitor b4 the supposed attack on wormtail? If so, why? Or, did DD and Remus only consider this, and accept it when they saw the fate of Lily and James?

So. As far as them suspecting Sirius b4 the attack, in regards to DD I'm not sure. I think Remus must have, if there was a spy and it wasn't him, and he didn't think Peter, than what made Remus think Sirius. I don't think it is just his family background either.

Ok, hope that gets things started a bit :)

[ComicBookWorm]

I think that Wormtail did a good job of sewing the seeds of mistrust. There may have been a slight rift with Lupin based on the shrieking shack incident. They could have gotten Lupin expelled, sent to Azkaban, or given a kiss from a dementor for that. So there may have been some strain that showed up every so often. I also think that they all underestimated Wormtail. And there may have been some inherent bigotry about werewolves. Voldemort was doing a good job getting all sorts to join his cause, and werewolves would have been motivated to join.

But I think the biggest factor would have been Wormtail himself. It was probably his idea to switch Secret Keeper, and he had probably been working both ends of that concept. First by sewing seeds of distrust, and second by suggesting how clever it would be to use him. So they underestimated him at the worst time possible.

[Blacks Beauty]

There's two interesting questions going on in this thread, in my mind:

1) Why did James suspect Remus? It's easy to see that Remus and Sirius would suspect each other through the process of elimination. James was the target, Peter was too weak, so Sirius knew it had to be Remus and vice versa. And Peter was there sowing the seed of mistrust. But James had to make a choice -- while he cared about both Sirius and Remus, he and Sirius were closer, and James couldn't fathom Sirius ever betraying him. Peter, having already decided that Sirius was going to be easier to manipulate than Remus, supported that line of thinking and led him to suspect Remus too.

2) Why did everyone else suspect Sirius? This is interesting in light of question one, that apparently everyone but James suspected Sirius. Or maybe it was hindsight, that after Peter blew up the street, everyone else said, "Oh, of course it was Sirius! Came from such a wretched family, should have known it all along..." Was Dumbledore confused too? Or did he know it was Peter, and he couldn't convince James? Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if he suspected Peter, and that's why Peter made sure the switch was at the last minute, so Dumbledore couldn't talk them out of it. DD didn't blink an eye when Hagrid showed up on Sirius' bike, because he knew that Sirius was innocent of killing the Potters -- but he thought he was guilty of killing Peter...until PoA, when DD accepted Sirius explanation of the events of that night without corroboration because he had always believed in Sirius' innocence of the betrayal in the first place.

Dumbledore is a very astute judge of character -- you can see it in his treatment of young Riddle. I'm guessing Wormtail didn't fool him either, it's just that nobody else could believe ratboy would be capable enough to do the things he did.

[NeuroComp]

well you gotta remember a couple of things.

Sirius was and always is james best of the best friends.
So there was no doubt that james trusted sirius even though
he knew someone amongst the OoP was out to get him after HP was born.
The question was who(sirius was christened teh godfather when HP was born not after the prophecy was told)

Enlight of this, we also knew Werewolves are untrusted by their kind and LV persuaded many other kinds of people to join him. SO since remus is a werewolve logically there is some bias towards picking a spy.

Also sirius said that pettigrew was weak so the bluff could work.

As for remus suspecting sirius, i think it was only after the fact that sirius had "led" 2 of their friends to death. Also prolly becuase of sirius' dark background.

Now this only goes to show you two things.
[1] Why not make DD the secret keeper as a bluff? Did they not trust him

[2] If not trust DD or Remus and trust the weakest? Then this shows you that
DD statement that the majority of wizards have no logic is true in sirius and james.

[winter snow]

As I was perusing this thread, a thought occured to me. Noone suspected Wormtail, and he used their misconceptions about him to his advantage. He used an old technique: divide and conquer. He laid the seeds of doubt into the Marauders minds and let them come apart at the seams, from within. Of course, he was probably working under Voldermort's influence.

Sirius believed that Wormtail was too cowardly to be accepted by Voldermort. Because of this belief, it's understanable that Sirius would in turn suspect Lupin.

Lupin also believed that Wormtail would never be chosen by Voldermort, making it easy for Wormtail to plant suspicions against Sirius in Lupin's mind.

Everybody knew that it wasn't James. That much was obvious. Wormtail kept working his misinformation in and before you knew it, Sirius and Lupin were at each other's throats. James was influenced by Sirius to change the Secret Keeper. Dumbledore knew it was a bad idea, but James and Lily were adults and probably wouldn't have listened.

Of course, if they had, we wouldn't have these wonderful books!
Just my thoughts on the subject.

[MadMagic]

We don't know that nobody suspected Wormtail, but among the powerful Remus and Sirius, Peter probably looked the least likely to be in line with Voldemort. Sirius comes from a family full of Dark Arts, and although it's terrible to say so, werewolves are not the most trusted of people in the Wizarding World. When it comes to protecting your family I'm sure these types of prejudices do influence decisions.
Obviously with the type of information being leaked to Voldemort it had to come from somebody in the very inner circle of the Potters, which is why one of the Marauders was suspected. I like to think that if I were in a similar situation that I wouldn't be fooled by the power hungry Pettigrew, but you never know. The backgrounds of Sirius and Lupin could blind anyone to the truth. Plus I'm sure Peter was very sneaky about the whole business.

[nextsuperhero]

hopefully JK will explain why any were suspected at all. I agree that probably someone suspected peter. I bet Dumbledore did. but in the end it was for the best that Lilly and james were betrayed if it stopped voldermort for 14 years. Seems like DD would have expected that.

[BloodyBlackRose]

Yeah. I agree. It was a total misunderstanding. I mean he was trying to protect his other friends too. Maybe he got information that made him THINK that Lupin was up to something and SUSPECTED him. That doesn't mean he was 100% sure. He was just suspicious. He didn't want his friends dead even though it did happen but I'm sure that there's no harsh feeling towards them or tension. They understand each other very well. I mean wouldn't YOU get supicious?

[crumseekerlynch]

I think JKR was just putting that in to show how scary the times were when Voldermort was around that people began to stop trusting thier own best friends, no matter how close or how long they knew eack other.

[Wep]

Why did James suspect Remus...I think that there had to be a rift or event that caused the suspicion...I think it was a combined thing with Sirius and James...

Why did everyone else suspect Sirius? I really don't know. Perhaps he got involved with a few DE's (like his brother) to help them out...and some people saw it as more than that, and were "proved right" after the deaths of Lily and James...

Why didn't they make DD secret keeper....that is something that fascinates me and I will continue to ponder for a long time (unless JK answers it for me?)

[HermioneLuna]

Why did James suspect Remus...I think that there had to be a rift or event that caused the suspicion...I think it was a combined thing with Sirius and James...

If Peter were sowing the seeds of mistrust between all the marauders, he most likely would have tried to get Lupin to suspect Sirius and Sirius to suspect Lupin. Sirius and James were best friends and Sirius probably approached James with his suspicions and James listened to him. I think that Lupin, Sirius and James were all still close during that time, but with nerves being so high and with anyone having the potential to be a servant of Voldemort no one was left unsuspected. Except, I guess, for Peter. I wonder though, if Lupin ever approached James with his suspicions. Of course, I don't think Lupin would cause that kind of trouble without proof.

Why did everyone else suspect Sirius? I really don't know. Perhaps he got involved with a few DE's (like his brother) to help them out...and some people saw it as more than that, and were "proved right" after the deaths of Lily and James...

Everyone else suspected Sirius because everyone else thought he had been the Potter's Secret Keeper. Dumbledore had offered to be their secret keeper and James told him no because he was sure that Sirius would die before betraying them. Dumbledore also said that he himself gave evidence that Sirius had been the Potter's secret keeper.

Why didn't they make DD secret keeper....that is something that fascinates me and I will continue to ponder for a long time (unless JK answers it for me?)

James and Lily didn't make Dumbledore secret keeper because they trusted Sirius. If their secret were safe with Sirius, if they knew their secret would die with him, they didn't need to use Dumbledore. They could have trusted Dumbledore, but there's no reason that they couldn't have trusted Sirius as well.

[Wep]

James and Lily didn't make Dumbledore secret keeper because they trusted Sirius. If their secret were safe with Sirius, if they knew their secret would die with him, they didn't need to use Dumbledore. They could have trusted Dumbledore, but there's no reason that they couldn't have trusted Sirius as well.

I know they trusted Sirius, I don't doubt that for a minute. But why choose Wormtail instead of DD, the most powerful wizard. Even if they trusted Wormtail, would you put all your trust in him over DD?

[HermioneLuna]

I know they trusted Sirius, I don't doubt that for a minute. But why choose Wormtail instead of DD, the most powerful wizard. Even if they trusted Wormtail, would you put all your trust in him over DD?

Between the two of them, I think Dumbledore is far more trustworthy. However, the reason Peter was used is explained in Prisoner of Azkaban. Everyone would have assumed that Sirius was the secret keeper, no one would have ever suspected that Peter was. So Voldemort and anyone acting under his command would have sought out Sirius, not Peter, which would have them chasing the wrong lead. It would also have given Lily and James extra protection.

[Wep]

I get that explaination, I really do...I just think (and it could just be my imagination working in overdrive) that there was more to the choice than just what was said in PoA...even if noone suspected Wormtail (as a spy or to be secret keeper) I still think it would have been safer to pass it to DD. I think there was something involved in that, more than what we have been told. Perhaps they blamed him for something?...

[HermioneLuna]

Maybe James could have tried to weed out the spy by setting up some sort of trap. He could have told Sirius, Lupin, and Peter information that Voldemort would want. For example, he could have told them each were he and his family were hiding. Only he could have told them all different things that were, of course, false. Then wherever Voldemort showed up to find them, James would know who the spy was.

If James told Sirius that he was hiding out in London, and he if he told Lupin that he was hiding in Surrey, and told Peter that he was hiding in Sexton and Voldemort was suddenly sighted in Sexton, then James would know that Peter was the spy.

However, if that happened we wouldn't have the books.

[Marcy]

Sirius was planning on going into hiding himself after he became the Fidelius keeper, I assume that DD would have been his secret keeper. It seems likely that Sirius assumed that Peter would go into hiding as well and Voldemort would have been his secret keeper as well, only Wormtail betrayed to Potters before anyone had time to learn of their switch. Having a secret keeper that also had a secret keeper is double protection, and since the boys (Harry and Neville) were sure to be targets, I believe they needed all the protection they could get. Not only for the sake of the little boy's lives, but for the wizarding community as a whole. DD knew the whole prophecy, and knew that if the boys were killed, then no one would ever be able to defeat Voldemort. This is why DD was not the direct secret keeper of the Potters. They needed more than one level of protection.

[HermioneLuna]

Sirius was planning on going into hiding himself after he became the Fidelius keeper, I assume that DD would have been his secret keeper. It seems likely that Sirius assumed that Peter would go into hiding as well and Voldemort would have been his secret keeper as well, only Wormtail betrayed to Potters before anyone had time to learn of their switch. Having a secret keeper that also had a secret keeper is double protection, and since the boys (Harry and Neville) were sure to be targets, I believe they needed all the protection they could get. Not only for the sake of the little boy's lives, but for the wizarding community as a whole. DD knew the whole prophecy, and knew that if the boys were killed, then no one would ever be able to defeat Voldemort. This is why DD was not the direct secret keeper of the Potters. They needed more than one level of protection.

I understand that. I was only saying that my suggestion would have been a way to tell who the spy was. That way James would have known who it was and wouldn't have suspected an innocent marauder. It was only a theory and I wasn't entirely serious about it, because the plan that they had was theoretically safer.

[Wep]

Hmm, but if that were the case DD wouldn't have originally offered to be the Potters secret keeper, but he did....

[HermioneLuna]

Hmm, but if that were the case DD wouldn't have originally offered to be the Potters secret keeper, but he did....

I'm not sure if you were responding to me, but you're right. Again, it was just a joking theory. I think Dumbledore cared deeply for James, Lily and Harry and wanted to be sure that there were no needless deaths by Voldemort's hand, or more accurately, wand.

[Wep]

I was responding to both of you actually....and you got it exactly...with all the secret keepers lying around, think of how much oppurtunity that creates for Voldermort in regards to torturing etc...So if DD was trying to prevent unneccessary deaths by being secret keeper, what made the Potters turn down his offer. I know people have said they trust Sirius, but they would trust DD just as much, and then getting told Wormtail instead, which if he wasn't a spy was a good trick, but if Wormtail did get in a position where he was found out, who would you have more faith in to not let you down DD or Peter?

[HermioneLuna]

I was responding to both of you actually....and you got it exactly...with all the secret keepers lying around, think of how much oppurtunity that creates for Voldermort in regards to torturing etc...So if DD was trying to prevent unneccessary deaths by being secret keeper, what made the Potters turn down his offer. I know people have said they trust Sirius, but they would trust DD just as much, and then getting told Wormtail instead, which if he wasn't a spy was a good trick, but if Wormtail did get in a position where he was found out, who would you have more faith in to not let you down DD or Peter?

If I had to trust my life with either Dumbledore or Peter I would choose Dumbledore. It's not very bright to choose Peter. But we have to remember that we know things about him that James and Lily did not have knowledge of. We know he's a Death Eater, a traitor, and a murderer. They didn't.

However, I do wonder why they didn't choose Dumbledore. I think that is a very good question.

[Wep]

Hmm, but even not knowing those things they still knew he wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed when it came to magic, if you get me? You've got Peter who needed help throughout Hogwarts and DD who is the most powerful wizard *weighs options*....

[HermioneLuna]

Hmm, but even not knowing those things they still knew he wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed when it came to magic, if you get me? You've got Peter who needed help throughout Hogwarts and DD who is the most powerful wizard *weighs options*....

I completely agree. I'm not disputing with you, I'm just trying to make it seem more reasonable that James and Lily entrusted their lives, in a way at least, to Peter. We know things they didn't.

Voldemort is afraid of Dumbledore. He always has been. Voldemort wouldn't go chasing after Dumbledore to find out where the Potters were. It really doesn't make much sense.

[Wep]

Voldemort is afraid of Dumbledore. He always has been. Voldemort wouldn't go chasing after Dumbledore to find out where the Potters were. It really doesn't make much sense.

Exactly...Maybe DD was invlolved with something that caused them to hold out on him...maybe something to do with Remus?

[HermioneLuna]

Exactly...Maybe DD was invlolved with something that caused them to hold out on him...maybe something to do with Remus?

I can't think of anything that Lupin and Dumbledore could have been up to that would cause Lily and James to not trust Dumbledore. In fact, I think if Dumbledore were spending lots of time around Lupin, they would have trusted Lupin more because Dumbledore is a legillimens and would know if Lupin was working for Voldemort.

[Wep]

I mean maybe the reasons they suspected remus had something to do with DD...not in the sense that he was spending too much time, I agree that in that case they would trust him more..but maybe they blamed DD for whatever reasons they suspected Remus for...Does that make sense? Like putting remus in a comprimising position or not keeping him away....something like that

[HermioneLuna]

I mean maybe the reasons they suspected remus had something to do with DD...not in the sense that he was spending too much time, I agree that in that case they would trust him more..but maybe they blamed DD for whatever reasons they suspected Remus for...Does that make sense? Like putting remus in a comprimising position or not keeping him away....something like that

I think so. Basically you're saying that Dumbledore might have had Lupin assigned to doing something or something along those lines. And maybe Lupin couldn't talk freely about his duty. A fact which may have aided in Sirius' thoughts that Lupin was the spy. Is that what you're saying?

[Wep]

Hm, kind of...Or the suspicions that Sirius made, that Remus was a spy, they blamed DD for not preventing it or putting him in such a position that lead Remus to being a spy...But yeah what you said is a huge part, but more that that is why they suspected Remus, not why they blamed DD or kept him out of being their secret keeper. I so feel like I'm going in circles, sorry if you are too by reading this

[HermioneLuna]

Hm, kind of...Or the suspicions that Sirius made, that Remus was a spy, they blamed DD for not preventing it or putting him in such a position that lead Remus to being a spy...But yeah what you said is a huge part, but more that that is why they suspected Remus, not why they blamed DD or kept him out of being their secret keeper. I so feel like I'm going in circles, sorry if you are too by reading this


It's all about the world they were living in. It was hard to trust anyone. With so many people going over to Voldemort's side, and the Imperious Curse being used so often, and knowing, not just thinking, but knowing that there was a spy in their midst just heightened everyone's anticipation. Sirius knew he and James weren't the spy, and he thought Peter was too pathetic to be the spy so that left Lupin. The same reasoning goes for Lupin with his candidate for spy being Sirius.

[Wep]

Yeah I get all that I...it may be just me searching for more than the obvious plus my fascination with the Marauders but, why???

Why suspect one of your oldest friends, and I don't believe the whole elimination thing really,...and why not make DD your secret keeper. I know i keep going back to the same two points but I haven't found anything yet that I can fully believe...but I like you trying to help :D

[Meldy]

They know there was a spy in the group.
Sirius thought it was Lupin. I think they weren´t friends at that time. I mean, James thought the spy was Lupin but he trusted in Sirius.
The marauders weren´t friends at that time.
In the night of the potter´s death we know where James, Sirius and Peter were, but nothing about Lupin. yeah he was in the order, but why wasn´t he mentioned in the history of that night? in the photo of the order Harry saw in OotP he saw the four marauders, but Lupin wasn´t near the other.

It is a great msitery indeed.
Kisses.

[esmerelda]

Yeah I get all that I...it may be just me searching for more than the obvious plus my fascination with the Marauders but, why???

Why suspect one of your oldest friends, and I don't believe the whole elimination thing really,...and why not make DD your secret keeper. I know i keep going back to the same two points but I haven't found anything yet that I can fully believe...but I like you trying to help :D


Hmm, good questions.

I always imagine Peter did as much as he could to make Lupin and Sirius suspect each other, to keep attention away from himself. Perhaps they knew that the information being passed over could only come from someone in their immediate circle. I've always got the impression that Sirius was closer to James than to Lupin, so he would probably have been especially worried. Lupin might have been acting strangely (because of the full moon or a mission for the Order), or might have been in a position where the Imperius curse could have been used on him. We know that Sirius completely underestimated Peter, and it never even crossed his mind that he would be the spy. Lupin was the only other option.

There was also some talk in OotP about what Voldemort might offer various species to get them on his side - goblins, giants, etc. Maybe the same went for werewolves. Lots of people here seem to believe that Ron might betray Harry at some point, because his head could be turned by material goods. Perhaps Sirius knew there were things that Voldemort could offer Lupin.

As for why Lupin would suspect Sirius...I'm not entirely sure. He may not have suspected him beforehand, he may just have struggled to accept it after the event. But I suppose he would have some of the same reasons as Sirius - it had to be one of them, and it couldn't possibly be Peter.

That still leaves the question of why Lily and James didn't use Dumbledore. I think it depends on what Dumbledore told them about why Voldemort was hunting them down. If they believed it was just because they were members of the Order, they would have presumed they weren't in much more danger than anyone else, and maybe would have seen it as an unnecessary precaution. I suppose they thought Sirius was just as sure not to betray them as Dumbledore, because even if he was tortured for information he would never admit their whereabouts. Dumbledore was the only person that Voldemort was afraid of, they probably didn't want to give the Death Eaters any more reasons to go after him. Although that is pretty flimsy really - if you want to be safe, make Dumbledore your secret keeper!

[LilCubanita67]

I agree with esmerelda on the fact that Peter had something to do with Sirius suspecting Lupin...my goodness, he's called "Wormtail" for a reason! I mean, why would they suspect Peter in the first place? He was following them around like a puppy, too weak and too slow to fend for himself. Sirius probably shrugged it off like "What harm could this thing do? Surely he's not in with the Dark Lord. But that wolf over there..."

I don't know about anyone else, but Lupin seemed like a loner to me, kept to himself mostly. Peter probably hinted that Lupin's silence was because he didn't like being with James or Sirius.