Who will fall in love with whom? v.35

[MadMagic]

Version 33 is available here for your reference.

Rules and such:

The Love Thread Guidelines

Firstly, the love thread is generally a very well debated thread with many good and challenging ideas posed by our members. The guidelines being imposed here for this thread are not designed to restrict debate in any way. They are here because the thread has become an exceptional case for staff to administer.

The problem with a thread of this type is that there is an obvious division forming between those who ship for Harry/Hermione and those who ship for Ron/Hermione, plus supporters of other ships wading in with their own ideas. Naturally, tensions within this thread have increased, forcing staff to keep an extra eye on what is being said. This has resulted in many participants of the love thread sending PMs to members of staff justifying their own cases and attempting to prove the other side is guilty of causing misbehaviour. This is not helping to resolve the issue.

What is necessary for this thread:

Shippers

- Whatever ship you support, please remember to respect and appreciate alternative ships.
- Signatures or avatars that might potentially bash or mock other ships will NOT be allowed.
- Some ideas may seem more far-fetched than others. Please remember to respond in a manner befitting of a civil community.
- JK Rowling in her usual masterful way is keeping us on our toes about who will end up with who and therefore we cannot truly know until we know. We should all note that whilst we can know a lot from what we read, we do not yet know everything. Please keep that in mind

There will be a zero tolerant approach undertaken by staff towards any form of misbehaviour from now on. Here is how it will work:

- Members caught arguing and lowering the tone of the thread will be PM’d an instant warning and banned from the love thread for 30 days.
- A second offense by the member in that thread will result in a three month suspension. If the user is in Hogsmeade, they will be demoted as well.
- A third offense by the member will result in them being banned from the forums.

Please note: If you decide to post in here before your suspension is up, you will be banned from the site.

The full support of the Administration of CoS Forums is given to all staff when warning members, but as has been the case many times with the love thread, if you wish to raise a point about a warning you have received, then please send an owl with your concerns to Morgoth or rotsiepots or lanifiel.

The terms of use as laid out for this thread are non-negotiable and will be amended as and when is necessary. All new love threads created will have these guidelines posted in the opening post. At certain points during the thread, these guides maybe posted by a member of staff to defuse any potential situation.


Thank you

The CoS Forums Staff.

---

Right... HP books, characters, love... Get posting!

[xray]

Greetings to all posters and lurkers: returning veterans and first-timers. :welcome: to the Love Thread!

If you wish to be added to a particular ship send me a PM (OWL) (http://www.cosforums.com/private.php?do=newpm&userid=12731).

Legend

H: Harry
R: Ron
Hr: Hermione
G: Ginny
L: Luna
N: Neville


H/Hr (HMS Harmony) 133 Members
Admiral, Aggroskater, Andy_b, Ang3l, Angel Spirit, Angie_Crawford, ArmaDeuS, Auror77, Avada Kedavra, Aya, Babyhalo19, BabyMars, Bccatcher4, Blackwillbeback, Blue Moon, Brisa, Buckbeak, Call Me Tonks, Camsin, CandiceMarie, Canteurervan, Cayster, Chamber, Cheeseheads, Clearacell, Courtenay, DadOfHermyGinny, Dancer4life728, Dark Emperor, DarlingHermione, Daz, Dementor149, Demetri, Dobydoo, Dottie, Earendil, Ebonyink, Egla, EllieDelacour, Eno Imreh, Enowonkenobi, Epiphany, EricaM, Eshana, Esicardi, Evil_Hermione_G, Expelliarmus, Faiza, Fate, Feeniks, Field, Flucias1, FoxyDoxy, FlyingPhoenix, GadgetGal, Godrics Heiress, GeorgeWeasley, Goldensnitch04, Grace Granger, GrangerExpress, Grimly, Grinty19, Hannibal "Drax" Lecter, Harry19, Hawk 92, Hermione08, HermioneFan101, HermioneWitch28, Hope1272, Iseeubaby, JBaker, JenniferH, Jewal, Jcchic, Jordmundt6, Kingharry, Krystallia, LadyJinx, Lavender Brown, Lewis8604, LeXoR, LordIluvatar, Mad Eye Mike, Mami, Marisa, Mega, Meg2089kul, Mirtilla, Miss Harmony, MnMbabe, Moonstruck, Moonylupin76, Mugpurehalf, Mumps, Narami, Nathaniel, Neon, Nia, No_braine, Noddwyd, Oliveros, Percivalwulfric, Perdita, Phantomwitch, Polaris15, Potterific, Prancer, Raidergurl, Renee2004, Rjade829, Sarmi, SenoritaNatasha, Shajjn, Sindarella, Sousana, Sirius83, Solomon, Spikey, Spiral, Tchen56, The_5th_Marauder, The_Boy_Who_, TheCruciatus, ThePhoenixEffect, Tkdgirl555, Toltec 7, Trabb, Turambar, V@sh, Warwizard, Willowtree06, XanderTheMighty, Zigwiwi

R/Hr (HMS Heron) 153 Members
Abby Lupin, Adelaide, AisicsRule, Albusdaughter, Alfonzo_X, Ami padme, AmmoniaAlert, Ammy_asakura, Ana Banana, Angua9, Anny, Archangel54, Asara, AsKPeeVes, Astaire, AvadaKedavra, AzkabanResident, BaBaKaNuSh_13, BeaTorpedo, Bookies9, Burningphoenix, Camilla7, Caopotter, Carina, Cassellfor3, Charmed Cheese, Chatmandu, Chop, Claireyellen, ComicBookWorm, Crazyukfan2005, Dah, DayVirgo, DragonChamber7, Daveydee, Deedlit, Discordia, Dott, Doxys, Drker2000, DumbledoreTheWise, Eddie_Haskel, Elfgirl831, EriWren, Esmeralda, FairyDust, Fira_Felton, Flame_of_Arnor, Freckled Apples, FredFancier, Ginnythecat, Godly_Voldemort, GrangerGal, Guardian Angel, HeatherHobbit, Hedwigthewitch, HermioneMalfoy, Honeycombe, Hpfan_08, I <3 Ron, IceKat55, Irised, Irony_in_blue, JacEjen, Jaffa_16uk, Jamara, JasmineFlower, Jenn_, Jennymac, JenShall, Jocelyn, Joel_is_cheese, JofpGallagher, Josiah45, KADH, Keather, Kimothyjones, Kitkatcake1988, La_Ginny, Lady_Celestine, Last Slayer, Laufa, Legoami, Lil Red Head, Lindy, Linzee4life, Lord Voldivader, LordGrindelwald, Lotusjewel, Mad-I Moody, Madame Raden, McBeth, Madle, MadMuggle, Maeve, Magician Girl, Maydeleat Greenly, Medb, Melcb98, Miss OliverWood, Morgause, MPPMarauderGirl, MrsSiriusBlack, Mugglegirl07, Nakashalynn, Niffler_8882, Night Shade, Noylj, Old Fart, Opsman14, Oxana, Pansy, Phoenix49, PitterPotter, Polychrome, Potter_Mom, Prof.Blink, Prongs Sr., Purslane, Quaffle, Reda, Rictusempra90, Robin, RonHermioneLOVE, Rons my mate, Rowansjet, Rowena Ravenclaw, Rowlingfan1, RWC, Sarah_Hedwig, Savoy Truffle, Sheep, Sheilajsn, Siriusly_obsess, Starborn, Stephron, Tane, Tee Time, The Leprechaun, Tigger101023, Troutfisher, TruFortune89, Veritas, VictorSeeker, Voldemolt14, Wannabeweasley, WeasleyIsOurKing, WhoAmI, Widz, X_thestral_x, Xray, Yue16, ZainyZandria

H/G (HMS Chocolate) 84 Members
Abby Lupin, Adelaide, Albusdaughter, Alfonzo_X, Ana Baedlit, Archangel54, Arcturus, Astaire, BaBaKaNuSh_13, Burningphoenix, Caopotter, Cassellfor3, Charmed Cheese, Chatmandu, ComicBookWorm, Dah, Discordia, Dott, Doxys, Duckboy, DumbledoreTheWise, Eddie_Haskel, Elfgirl831, FairyDust, FireLass, Flame_of_Arnor, Foxy1770831, Freckled Apples, FredFancier, Gily Ann, Ginevera Weasly, Ginnythecat, Green_ginevra, GryffindorGr, Guardian Angel, Hagridmaydie, Hawkeye, Hedwigthewitch, Hpfan_08, I <3 Ron, IceKat55, Irised, Irony_in_blue, JasmineFlower, Jennymac, JenShall, Jocelyn, Joel_is_cheese, Josiah45, Katarzyna, Keather, Lady_Celestine, Lindy, Linzee4life, LordGrindelwald, MadMuggle, Magician Girl, Maeve, Miss OliverWood, Morgause, MPPMarauderGirl, MrsSiriusBlack, Noylj, Old Fart, Oldmuggle, Pansy, PitterPotter, Polychrome, Potter_Mom, Prongs Sr., Quaffle, Reda, Rowena Ravenclaw, Rowlingfan1, RWC, Siriusly_obsess, Tee Time, Terrilein, The Leprechaun, Tigger101023, Veritas, WeasleyIsOurKing, Widz, Xray

H/L (HMS Moonlight) 23 Members
AisicsRule, Ami padme, AsKPeeVes, Drker2000, EriWren, Fenellaevangela, LunaGirl, McBeth, Maeve, Night Shade, OceanBlueRose, Potterfied, Rattan, RonHermioneLOVE, Rons my mate, RosetteDelacour, Rowansjet, Rowlingfan1, Tristessa, TruFortune89, VictorSeeker, X_thestral_x, ZainyZandria

R/L (HMS Red Moon) 22 Members
Archidemes, Avada Kedavra, CandiceMarie, DadOfHermyGinny, Dementor149, Dobydoo, Esicardi, Fate, Field, GadgetGal, Godrics Heiress, GryffindorGr, Hawk 92, Hope1272, JenniferH, Jordmundt6, Krystilla, Moonstruck, Mugpurehalf, Phantomwitch, The_5th_Marauder, XanderTheMighty



N/G (HMS Signs) 13 Members
AisicsRule, Avada Kedavra, Dobydoo, Hawk 92, Jordmundt6, Phantomwitch, Ron's my mate, Rowansjet, Sindarella, Sousana, TruFortune89, XanderTheMighty, X_thestral_x

N/L (HMS Waxing Gibbous) 6 Members
BaBaKaNuSh_13, ComicBookWorm, Flame_of_Arnor, Jocelyn, Noylj, Xray

Neutral (HMS Plato) 12 Members
Alci, Barbara Kennedy, CaseyAlthea, Cerebus, Chickadee, Cynismus, DeNiZeN989, DougJohnston, Drusilla, Haycheng, Ilovesirius18, Mierin42

Notes:
ship is short for relationship.
I only keep track of some mainstream trio ships.
Neutral means you're either undecided or support no ship at all
New entries (since the start of the current thread) are in italics.
HMS stands for Her Majesty's Ship or His Majesty's Ship, depending on whether there is a king or queen at the head of British government. All ships in the British Royal Navy have this before their name (e.g. HMS Victory). Other countries use similar labels. In the United States it's USS (United States Ship). Since Britain is the setting for the books we have adopted this for our own relationships.


xray

[daz]

Harmony rocks

[linzee4life]

Did i say that was a shipping point NO

I just said the book was about Harry and Hermione.But it does prove Hermione all ways has Harrys best interests at heart.Which is very important
Uh, the book is about Harry, not Hermione or even both of them together. They are called Harry Potter and the... not Hermione Granger and the... Moving on, Hermione always has everyone's best interests at heart, not just Harry's. She has shown throughout all of the books that she is a good, caring, and loving person. Harry is not the only one she loves and cares for.

[Moonstruck]

Because she doesn't see one as more important than the other. She shows more concern and devotion to Harry because Harry has a crazy dark wizard running after him every year or so.

It's like in PoA when Hermione spends an enormous amount of time helping out Hagrid, instead of hanging out with Harry, and with all the work she has, when Hagrid is going through a tough time. Does this mean she romantically loves Hagrid and wants to live in his hut forever in matrimony? No.

I thought she was with Hagrid because Ron wouldn't talk to her? And Harry as well? :huh:

[clearacell]

yay I got in early!

[LordGrindelwald]

If Hermione and ron date what is Harry going to be there if they make out H*ELL NO

JKR doesn't need to show them making out in order to write a romance between Ron and Hermione. She doesn't need to show the intimate details. She didn't even show Harry and Cho kissing.

And do you ship Ron and Luna? By your logic, that adds nothing to the plot either because we wouldn't get to see them making out either, and therefore makes no sense.

[daz]

JKR doesn't need to show them making out in order to write a romance between Ron and Hermione. She doesn't need to show the intimate details. She didn't even show Harry and Cho kissing.

And do you ship Ron and Luna? By your logic, that adds nothing to the plot either because we wouldn't get to see them making out either, and therefore makes no sense.


No i ship Harmony but think that Ron and Luna will happen.Luna shows though OOTP that she fanceys Ron.And i think Ron could see Luna though the summer.They live near each other and Ginny and Luna are close so i can see her going to the burrow to see Ginny and Ron would be there as well

[LordGrindelwald]

I thought she was with Hagrid because Ron wouldn't talk to her? And Harry as well?

Harry wasn't talking to her, but only for a month. Yet, even when they made up, Hermione spent more time with Hagrid, and put Hagrid's interest above all else, even her own, because Hagrid needed it. That's her personality, and it doesn't indicate shippiness, either to Hagrid in PoA, or Harry in OOTP.

[stic]

Claudia wrote: Hey! I just wrote a post on that very subject on a different thread. I disagree that Ron stopped giving his opinion to Harry, You quoted scenes in which Ron either just says what Hermione says: p. 542 “Hermione told me to come and check on you,” said Ron in a low voice p. 236 “But Hermione says she thinks it would be nice if you stopped taking out your temper on us,” said Ron or Ron gives a poorly standard "tell somebody" advice :“The old hag!” Ron said in a revolted whisper…”She’s sick! Go to McGonagall, say something!”
“No,” said Harry at once. “I’m not giving her the satisfaction of knowing she’s got to me.”
“Got to you? You can’t let her get away with this!”
“I don’t know how much power McGonagall’s got over her,” said Harry.
“Dumbledore, then, tell Dumbledore!”
“No,” said Harry flatly.
“McGonagall would go nuts if she knew—“
“Yeah, she probably would,” said Harry dully. “And how long d’you reckon it’d take Umbridge to pass another decree saying anyone who complains about the High Inquisitor gets sacked immediately?”
Ron opened his mouth to retort but nothing came out “You’ve got to tell someone,” said Ron.
“I told Sirius last time.”
“Well, tell him about this time!”
“Can’t, can I?” said Harry grimly. “Umbridge is watching the owls and the fires, remember?”
“Well then, Dumbledorre—“
“I’ve just told you, he already knows,” said Harry shortly…”There’s no point telling him again.” Harry,” he said…”you’ve got to tell—“
“I haven’t got to tell anyone,” said Harry shortly. “I wouldn’t have seen it at all if I could do Occulumency. I’m supposed to have learned to shut this stuff out. That’s what they want.” Let me rephrase: In OotP Jo wrote Ron largely outside of Harry and Hermione's decision-making processes on the important matters or Ron not participating at all. Jo wrote Hermione bringing up the DA to Harry while Ron does not back her up at first and leaves her quite alone with her idea. Hermione's advice gets the DA rolling while Ron gives his support to the idea only when Harry begun to work it out with Hermione.
Jo wrote Ron not giving advice at all to Harry about talking to Sirius the first time; again failing to back up Hermione. :td: At the end of OotP Jo wrote again Ron not giving opinion, then siding with Harry backed up by rubbish logic.
Why? :huh:

[Moonstruck]

Harry wasn't talking to her, but only for a month. Yet, even when they made up, Hermione spent more time with Hagrid, and put Hagrid's interest above all else, even her own, because Hagrid needed it. That's her personality, and it doesn't indicate shippiness, either to Hagrid in PoA, or Harry in OOTP.

The book doesn't say that.

"She's in a righ' state, that's what. She's bin comin' down ter visit me a lot since Chris'mas. Bin feelin' lonely. Firs' yeh weren' talking to her because o' the Firebolt, now yer not talkin' to her because her cat - "
.......
but I gotta tell yeh, I thought you two'd value yer friend more'n broomsticks or rats. Tha's all."

Harry and Ron exchanged uncomfortable looks.

That doesn't sound like someone who was trying to comfort Hagrid. It sounds like someone who's trying to find comfort. And Harry doesn't look so innocent either. He's just as guilty as Ron in this book.

[KADH]

New thread, time for another of my monster posts. Again I will divide this up into parts, but please, please, please read the whole thing if you are going to argue against it - as it is the collection of points rather than the individual points that is most significant - the pattern rather than the pieces. That said -

Happy shreading (I mean reading)
K




Things that just don’t make sense…

If Hermione doesn’t like Ron (in THAT way)

Note: All quotes are Scholastic Paper editions.


Introduction:

Seemingly the entire Who-is-going-to-end-up-with-who debate hinges on the feelings of a 16 year-old girl.

On the seemingly unknowable feelings of Hermione.

And we can’t KNOW for sure - at least not yet, thanks to the third person limited omniscient narrative and Harry’s completely understandable inability to understand girls.

And I maintain again, that too often all of us (myself included) are looking for that bright, unmistakable glowing neon sign- the great ANSWER from above (well from JKR at least) that unequivocally states: Hermione’s in love with ____________. Alas, if we’re all holding out for that (Herons and Harmony shippers both), we may be left holding our breath for an awful long time :).

But as with all JKR enigmas, she does posit clues in her text. As with all of her clues, not all of them are the most apparent at first reading. Hence the fun of re-reading the books and debating them ad nauseam.

So off a clue-hunting we go, with our shipping goggles on, in desperate search for that big neon sign (which none of us ever gets). And we don’t get anywhere. We keep looking for things that make sense according to our shipping view.

And then this train of thought came up in the thread (you know who you are :)):

In OotP Hermione appears to show no interest in Ron, is often unduly harsh to Ron, and may in fact be trying to discourage Ron’s non-platonic feelings.

And trying to be slightly impartial I tried this thought out. After all there is no big neon sign in OotP that says Hermione loves Ron. Heck, not even a 1000W bulb, right?

And then it hit me, what if I was looking for things that didn’t make sense, the things that just don’t add up unless Hermione does have feelings for Ron. So here they are – things I can’t explain away if Hermione doesn’t care about Ron. And before you all shred each individual point (which is fine by the way – get your red pens ready :) ), its not each point individually that troubles me, but them collectively. There are just too many things that don’t make sense if you start out assuming Hermione doesn’t like Ron.



1) It’s only a game – or Hermione’s sudden dislike for Quidditch

Hermione never seemed to have a problem with Quidditch before OotP. She’s never missed a match (unless in the hospital wing), even in 3rd year when she was taking enough classes for 3 students. She stood in the stands with Ron cheering on Harry and the Gryffindors during all three years the sport’s been played. She seemed to have had a great time watching the match at the Quidditch World Cup. She even went to the Yule Ball with an International Quidditch star. But in fifth year, her opinion of Quidditch goes from enthusiasm to disinterest.

Why? Actually there’s no direct answer in canon for this. So we can speculate, which I am this time not going to indulge in as several others have covered this topic quite nicely and this essay is already the length of a bible as it is.

For me, the more important question is why is she so disdainful of Quidditch and yet so personally concerned for one particular Quidditch player (and no, not the one with wild black hair and a lightening bolt scar :)).

It’s not canon, but I think Hermione has a pretty shrewd idea what Ron’s going to do with that new broomstick he asks his mother for – after all he’s not going to be using it to sweep the floor with it. There’s only really one thing a teenage boy uses a broom for – to play Quidditch. She may have conveniently forgotten that Gryffindor had an opening --

“I’d forgotten that Wood left,” said Hermione vaguely, sitting down beside Ron and pulling a plate of toast to her. “I suppose that will make quite a difference to the team?” (OotP 224)

And she’s noticed he’s been missing in the evenings – “Well, why didn’t you do any last night?” Hermione asked him. “Where were you anyway?” (269). But she doesn’t seem all that surprised at him making the team. Her “good about, Ron” (276) comment to Harry bears none of the hallmarks of someone taken aback by sudden unexpected developments.

Contrary to some assertions, Hermione’s negative feelings about Quidditch don’t begin after Harry’s expulsion from the team. Her negative feelings about Quidditch seem to start from when Ron joins the team. But her feelings toward Ron aren’t so negative. Watch how she goes from cold about Quidditch to warm towards Ron.

“How was practice?” asked Hermione rather coolly half an hour later, as Harry and Ron climbed through the portrait hole into the Gryffindor common room.
‘It was –” Harry began.
“Completely lousy,” said Ron in a hollow voice, sinking into a chair beside Hermione. She looked up at Ron and her frostiness seemed to melt.
“Well it was just the first one,” she said consolingly, “it’s bound to take time to –“
“Who said it was me who made it lousy?” snapped Ron.
“No one,” said Hermione, looking taken aback, “I thought –“
“You thought I was bound to be rubbish?”
“No of course I didn’t! Look, you said it was lousy so I just –”
“I’m going to get started on some homework,” said Ron angrily and stomped off to the staircase to the boy’s dormitories and vanished from sight. Hermione turned to Harry.
“Was he lousy?”
“No,” said Harry loyally.
Hermione raised her eyebrows.
“Well, I suppose he could’ve played better,” Harry muttered, “but it was only the first training session, like you said….” (294).

She’s quickly put away her disdain for them neglecting her homework (something that is very important to her) in order to comfort Ron. She’s only worried about Ron here. Harry might as well not even be there - which seems to always happen when the two of them start on.

Hermione tries to console Ron after what has obviously not been a good practice. And she continues to try even when Ron accuses her of not believing in him. Even when Ron refuses to allow her to defend him. In fact Ron doesn’t give Hermione the chance to defend him (JKR has a very annoying habit of not letting us hear Hermione compliment or say nice things about Ron – more on this later). Even after all that, Hermione’s still concerned and interested enough to ask Harry directly as towards Ron performance after Ron’s gone.

So Hermione’s begun to show this strange “I don’t care about Quidditch, but I care about Ron” behavior – and continues to do so throughout the rest of OotP.

After the horrible first Quidditch match of the season, Hermione seems to be the only one really worried about Ron. The whole team is huddled in the common room, talking about Harry and the twin’s expulsion – but Hermione says nothing. Nothing until everyone leaves and its just her and Harry -

“Have you seen Ron?” Hermione asked in a low voice.
Harry shook his head.
“I think he’s avoiding us,” said Hermione. “Where do you think he -- ?”
But at that precise moment, there was a creaking sound behind them as the Fat Lady swung forward and Ron came cambering through the portrait hole. He was very pale indeed and there was snow in his hair. When he saw Harry and Hermione he stopped dead in his tracks.
“Where have you been?” said Hermione anxiously, springing up.
“Walking,” Ron mumbled. He was still wearing his Quidditch things.
“You look frozen,” said Hermione. “Come and sit down!” (418)

Hermione’s concerned about Ron – where he is, how he is, not how he’s played. She shows concern for Ron, the person, though Harry, who is still wrapped up in the Quidditch, does not. He is still focused (I’m not saying wrongly) on the terrible game and its disastrous outcome. Hermione may relate the whole Umbridge decree bit (which isn’t important enough for us to be privy to), but she makes no comment, does not get into the whole Ron says he should resign talk with Harry.

As the season progresses – and things go from bad to worse, Hermione still isn’t interested in how the Quidditch is going – she’s interested in how Ron is doing. She directly takes the matter up directly with the Twins --

“Has Ron saved a goal yet?” asked Hermione, peering over the top of Magical Hieroglyphs and Logograms (574).

And upon hearing Ron’s not doing all that well (okay, he’s terrible), Hermione goes off on her little tirade about how the game creates “All this bad feeling and tension between the houses,” before dismissing it – as “just a game” to the assembled group’s complete and utter befuddlement (575). Then in the whole I’m trying to be casual about the whole thing – not reveal that I care about how bad Ron is doing, she tells the group:

“But at least my happiness doesn’t depend on Ron’s goal keeping ability” (575).

For those of you who think this is cutting towards Ron, keep in mind that Harry interprets this to mean she doesn’t care about Quidditch:

He would have given any number of galleons not to care about Qudditch either (575).

And then where is Hermione after that awful second match? She’s not in the common room with Fred, George, Harry and Ginny (or Ron who is seated alone in the corner). We get no explanation of where she’s disappeared to – no excuses of having to be at the library or off studying or visiting house elves or anything – she’s just not there.

Her absence is striking (and subtle). So why is she gone? That’s not like Hermione. Is she not there because she can’t face a defeated and dejected Ron? A Ron who has failed at something he so desperately wants to be good at (for perhaps all the wrong reasons). She’s not been successful at consoling or comforting him. Is she avoiding him at this moment because she cares too much and doesn’t know what to do or say? I don’t know. In reality, there is no answer in canon.

But she seems rather encouraged right before that final Quidditch match, after Ron’s perked up a bit. True he is grim, but there is a bit of new found acceptance in his speech when he tells his two friends:

“I mean I can’t get any worse, can I?” he told Harry and Hermione grimly over breakfast on the morning of the match. “Nothing to lose now is there?”
“You know,” said Hermione, as she and Harry walked down the pitch later in the midst of a very excitable crowd, “I think Ron might do better without Fred and George around. They never exactly gave him a lot of confidence….” (683)

But for me, the most heart-rending moment regarding Ron and Quidditch is her initial response upon finding out that Gryffindor has won the match.

“No!” said Hermione in a hushed voice.
“YES!” said Harry loudly (702).

It’s in that one word – all the quiet disappointment of missing Ron’s big moment, his real chance to shine, his achieving what he thinks he really needs to do. Note the huge difference in her response and Harry’s. Hermione’s “no” – is focused on Ron. It is a “no I’ve/we’ve missed it.” Her response bears hints of regret. While Harry’s “yes” is a jubilant “We’ve won the cup, the all important cup.” Again, for Harry, it’s the game that was important.

And this trend of Hermione’s focus on Ron continues through to the trio’s conversation of why Harry and Hermione missed Ron’s match. Pay careful attention to the question Hermione is answering, not just her answer (I almost missed this one).

“Well actually… no, Ron,” said Hermione with a heavy sigh, putting down her book and looking at him apologetically. “As a matter of fact, the only bit Harry and I saw was Davies’s first goal.”

Ron’s carefully ruffled hair seemed to wilt with disappointment.

“You didn’t watch?” he said faintly, looking from one to the other. “You didn’t see me make any of those saves?”

“Well – no,” said Hermione, stretching a placatory hand toward him. “But Ron, we didn’t want to leave – we had to!” (704-705)

First, Hermione puts down her book and gives Ron her undivided attention (signifying that this conversation is important enough to not be studying – many other times she is working/reading something during a conversation, she continues with the reading/working while talking – ie – Quidditch discussion (575), writing the letter to Krum while talking to Ron and Harry). And then she answers Ron’s question – which is not about the game in general, but about Ron’s performance in particular. It’s now, not when the talk is about the game, but about Ron, that Hermione finally breaks down and offers an explanation.

But it’s her gesture here, that is most striking. Ron and Hermione seem to have a rather strict no-touching policy. We don’t see them touching each other very often (aside from a few uncomfortable hugs – POA and then when Ron and Harry make up in GOF). Hermione tends to be a great deal more comfortable hugging/touching Harry while being very inhibited with Ron when it comes to touching -- uncomfortable, guarded. So when she lets that guard down and reaches for Ron – it means something. She is stepping beyond the safe and the comfortable. Yes, I do realize that she doesn’t actually touch Ron, here (or at least it’s at best ambiguous whether she does or not). But the intent is there and clear. And Hermione is doing something that is generally out of character for her. She is trying to comfort Ron in a very intimate way. Unfortunately for us (grumble, grumble JKR and her stopping things just before they get interesting habit), Ron interrupts her.

So in the end, we see Hermione expressing a great deal of disinterest in Quidditch, while being notably interested in Ron. Irregardless of why she is no longer interested in the game, her attitude regarding Ron just doesn’t make sense to me, if her interest in Ron isn’t beyond platonic. No one else is displaying the concern, care or questioning for Ron that Hermione has. Not his family or even his other best friend, just Hermione.

continue to part 2&3
http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=1417109&postcount=19

[yxs]

So in the end, we see Hermione expressing a great deal of disinterest in Quidditch, while being notably interested in Ron. Irregardless of why she is no longer interested in the game, her attitude regarding Ron just doesn’t make sense to me, if her interest in Ron isn’t beyond platonic. No one else is displaying the concern, care or questioning for Ron that Hermione has. Not his family or even his other best friend, just Hermione.
Well, at other times she is expressing the same kind of (and even more noticeable) caring attitude towards Harry (when no one wants to believe him), but then people say "Of course, they're best friends!"

I don't see it being any different in here, in this case with Ron.

[Droogish]

Wow, I hadn't even THOUGHT of that! That's nice though. Now that I think about it. I havent read ootp in a while. you're making me want to read it again, lol.

I did however, cook up this little detail:

We are given so many Ron/Hermione hints, I can’t even fit them all in my head. I do know, however, that it’s there even in the first few chapters of the very first book. Sure, it’s subtle, but it’s there. It’s common knowledge that guys tend to fall for people who have something in common with their mothers (I’m not talking appearance wise, guys). Let’s review. What’s the Mrs. Weasley fussing about before Ron gets on the train. The dirt on his nose, correct? And then, we get on the train, and what’s one of the first things Hermione points out to Ron? The dirt on the nose. I know, oldest trick in the book, but read into it, and you’ve got a clue, even as the characters are first introduced.

And then we move on, a little later into the year, Hermione is still intent on correcting Ron and making him better, we see her doing this more with Ron than Harry (however you might call it coincidence). Of course, then we have the whole Halloween incident. I might not be a hundred percent on this, but Hermione isn’t normally one to care about people’s opinions of her, right? But consider her reaction to Ron’s comments after the Wingardium Leviosa issue. When you really care about someone, you care about their opinion, no? Why else would Hermione be upset if, even then, she hadn’t had just an inkling of a crush on Ron? I don’t know, maybe I’m going out on a limb here, but think about it.

[stic]

KADH you wrote:Hermione never seemed to have a problem with Quidditch before OotP. She’s never missed a match (...) But in fifth year, her opinion of Quidditch goes from enthusiasm to disinterest.
and tried to turn it into pro-Heron by quoting scenes of Hermione trying and failing to console Ron for his lack of sucess.
Hermione's (failing) attempts are nothing out of the bold ordinary.
Jo did not write Hermione doing anything else for Ron than a rather basic support. She goes to the games even if she doesn't enjoy it, and at the end she is happy that he had finally success. That's not much. No extra-efforts or joy on Hermione's side that tops her ecstasy over Harry's achievements. :huh:
Harry's achievements are also way more important than Ron's Quidditch playing. It has really just become a game to Hermione, nothing more. Ron plays for fame, Hermione couldn't care less about fluff like fame; it would be out of character. :tu:

So in the end, we see Hermione expressing a great deal of disinterest in Quidditch, while being notably interested in Ron.
We see a bare-bones standard interest in Ron being depressed. She doesn't even pursue the subject when Ron snaps at her and leaves sulking. :huh:

[Droogish]

Well of course she wouldn't pursue it. It's never a good idea to bug someone about what's eating them. More likely, she didn't feel like getting in a fight with him when she felt sorry for him, so of course she wouldn't nag him...

[McBeth]

We are given so many Ron/Hermione hints, I can’t even fit them all in my head. I do know, however, that it’s there even in the first few chapters of the very first book. Sure, it’s subtle, but it’s there. It’s common knowledge that guys tend to fall for people who have something in common with their mothers (I’m not talking appearance wise, guys). Let’s review. What’s the Mrs. Weasley fussing about before Ron gets on the train. The dirt on his nose, correct? And then, we get on the train, and what’s one of the first things Hermione points out to Ron? The dirt on the nose. I know, oldest trick in the book, but read into it, and you’ve got a clue, even as the characters are first introduced.

I've never thought of that before, Droogish! But you're very right - Hermione reminds me of Mrs. Weasley a lot. The very first thing she notices is the dirt on his nose. . . . Is it coincidence OR a fantastically subtle hint by JKR? I'm definitely going for the subtle hint :tu:

[Droogish]

Lol, I just thought of that out of the blue! I prefer the subtle hint of course...

Any way, I wouldn't bug him but I don't tend to identify with Herms very well, so who knows if what I'd do is the same as what she do? Heck, I would have long since confessed my undying love for Ron, but hey, that's just me...

[KADH]

Things that just don’t make sense… Parts 2 & 3

Continued from:
http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=1417001&postcount=12

2) The Good Luck Kiss
Note: part of this point has been posted previously, so it may look slightly familiar, there are a few new points added, however.

Let’s get this part over with –

Yes, Hermione did kiss Harry in GOF. And as I’ve said before, Hermione likely knows for sure that Harry has absolutely no feelings other than platonic ones for her at this time (this doesn’t mean his feeling can’t/won’t change later). She likely has an inkling that Harry fancies Cho (from his Quidditch world cup behavior and dismay over Yule Ball partners). So if there’s no real chance Harry fancies Hermione, then Hermione can be fairly certain that Harry won’t misinterpret her gesture as being anything more than a friendly good-bye (which Harry could really use after all that’s happened).

I’ve always been struck by the anonymity of having her kiss Harry at King’s Cross. This kiss here isn’t a very public one, though it occurs in a public place. Amidst the chaos and trunks and hurried good-byes, people are all wrapped up in their own comings and goings. There’s nothing notable about kissing someone good-bye here. It doesn’t attract any attention, not even Harry’s really.

In fact her whole kiss gets wrapped up in a sort of group hug event. Mrs. Weasley hugs Harry first. Ron goes in for the male equivalent of a hug – the clap on the back (good old male intimacy :) ). Then Hermione kisses him. And the twins give him a hearty thank you (734 GOF). The whole event has a familial timbre to it, with Hermione getting all wrapped up in Weasley clan. There’s nothing really particularly intimate about what she’s just done.

So if the station is a fairly safe platonic kiss zone, why doesn’t Ron get a good-bye kiss there, too? We know for sure he doesn’t, as he is so gob-smacked when Hermione does it in the Great Hall. If she has no problem kissing Harry, her best friend why doesn’t she kiss her other best friend? There would be nothing unusual in that. But she doesn’t.

We constantly look at what people do do in order to divine some sort of clue as to hidden feelings. But sometimes when someone doesn’t do something, it’s just as significant.

She doesn’t kiss Ron good-bye.

Why? Whether or not she has feelings for Ron (though I maintain she does, but that point is irrelevant), she is aware that Ron is acting differently. He isn’t his usual platonic friend self. He’s been showing jealousy towards Krum (who is interested in Hermione in “that” way). He’s been more than unduly interested in Hermione’s personal life -- wanting to know who she’s going to the ball with -- if she’s going to see Viktor over the summer; what she’s off doing with Krum just before the carriages arrive (while Harry really doesn’t seem to care less and is repeatedly surprised by the rumor and innuendo that links him with Hermione). Ron isn’t acting like “just her best friend” anymore.

So Hermione can’t give him that “we’re just friends kiss.” There is all the chance in the world that either of them just might take it for more what it is. It’s too risky, too bold at that moment.

But back to The Kiss – the one that throws a wrench in everything. Here’s how it happens:

… As they rose from the table, Hermione got up, too, and taking Harry’s arm, she drew him to one side.
“Don’t let Ron see what’s on those Slytherins’ badges,” she whispered urgently.
Harry looked questioningly at her, but she shook her head warningly; Ron had just ambled over to them, looking lost and desperate.
“Good luck, Ron,” said Hermione, standing on tip-toe and kissing him on the cheek. “And you Harry –“
Ron seemed to come to himself slightly as they walked back across the Great Hall. He touched the spot on his face where Hermione had kissed him, looking puzzled, as though he was not quite sure what had just happened. He seemed to distracted to notice much around him, but Harry… (OotP 404).

There has been a lot speculation that Hermione only kissed Ron to distract him from the badges. I disagree. Especially as Hermione has specifically given Harry the task of distracting Ron. She tells HARRY to make sure Ron doesn’t see the badges. It’s HARRY’S responsibility to get Ron out of there.

That kiss is not the key component of some brilliant diversionary tactics. Yes, Ron is completely stunned, but Hermione can’t know for sure how strong his response will be. She may have an idea, but it seems to be a pretty long gamble if her only reason to kiss him is to distract him from those badges.

And this kiss is markedly different from the one on the platform. This is no conventional kiss (like Harry’s conventional/harmless good-bye kiss in GOF). It’s unexpected. It’s also very public. This kiss is most definitely a PDA (a personal display of affection). Yes, people are busy with breakfast, but the Gryffindor and Slytherin tables are at the center of attention, as they are playing against each other. And the respective team members at those tables are particularly focused on. People are going to be paying attention to what’s going on with them (see p 402 – rousing welcome). So I have the feeling that quite a few people saw that little kiss of Hermione’s. And I think she knew they’d see it. Now I can see why it probably took her the whole ten minutes after Luna left to get up the nerve to do it.

Whether not anyone else saw the kiss (ie especially the Slytherins), there was a risk that someone could see it. Hermione knows quite well that her actions are watched (especially after the Rita nonsense of the last year regarding her and Harry). That kiss could have very well blown up in her face, with the Slytherins making a real big deal about it – think of that verse in Weasley is our King – and what if Fred and George had seen – we’d still be hearing about it :).

But Hermione kisses Ron, knowing she’s likely to be watched, knowing Ron’s feelings are at least slightly more than platonic, knowing that Ron needs all the encouragement he can get. So why do it if she feels nothing more than friendship for Ron? Why do something that public, that revealing, that possible to be taken the wrong way, if she didn’t have feelings for him? I just can’t reconcile her taking that big of a risk for a mere distraction. It’s just not like Hermione. It’s not logical.


3) An insensitive wart and the emotional ranges of teaspoons

Ron and Harry both seem to be absolutely clueless when it comes to girls – or at least Hermione thinks so (and me, too, for that matter). But while Harry gets patient (and sometimes patronizing) advice, Ron gets raked over the coals. Why? Ron hasn’t done or said anything Harry hasn’t. He’s not acting really any more immaturely than Harry.

Okay, the rolling around the hearth rug is just bit juvenile and Hermione is sufficiently “disgusted,” but Ron’s later behavior isn’t all that different from Harry’s – curious, confused, and even a little sensitive when he’s trying to make Harry feel better (the whole “you’d think a bit of kissing” line).

Even Ron recognizes the personal nature of Hermione’s attack –

… “You are the most insensitive wart I have ever had the misfortune to meet.”
“What’s that suppose to mean?” said Ron indignantly. “What sort of person cries while someone’s kissing them?”
“Yeah,” said Harry, slightly desperately, “who does?”
Hermione looked at the pair of them with an almost pitying expression on her face.
“Don’t you understand how Cho’s feeling at the moment?” she asked.
“No,” said Harry and Ron together.
… (Hermione describes Cho’s feelings – not relevant to point) ….
A slightly stunned silence greeted the end of this speech, then Ron said, “One person can’t feel all that at once, they’d explode.”
“Just because you have the emotional range of a teaspoon doesn’t mean we all have,” said Hermione nastily, picking up her quill again. (459)

But in response to Harry’s inability to comprehend how to comfort Cho she

…looked as though she was restraining herself from rolling her eyes with extreme difficulty.
“Well I suppose it could have been worse,” she said… (460)

Harry may be showing the same clueless insensitivity as Ron, but he doesn’t get the venom.

And Hermione’s not the type to be nasty without a really good reason. In fact, this exchange is perhaps the nastiest she’s ever been.

(1) Because it is personal. She may not hide her distain for people like Trewlany or Rita, but she doesn’t attack them personally.
(2) Because it is one sided – Harry gets none of it. Ron is her only target. Heck, Harry might as well not be in the room. This scene is so much more about R/Hr than H/Cho.
(3) It’s not a fair fight as Ron isn’t fighting back. This isn’t the Yule Brawl with the two of them screaming at each other from opposite ends of the room. This isn’t a battle of equals, this is Hermione going off on a very confounded Ron, a Ron that doesn’t even rail at Krum at the end.

Which begs the question why?

Why is she so nasty towards Ron? And why is she so nasty to him only in reference to his grasp on girls? If she just wanted to be nasty to Ron, she could berate him for his poor Quidditch skills or rail at him for being a poor prefect (both would be equally cutting). But she only lashes out at him about romance. Sure, she may want him to act a bit more mature (come on he is only 15). But it more than that. She frustrated. At him. At only him. And only about romance.

Why, because she sees him a romantic partner who’s found wanting? He isn’t getting it? He isn’t getting that girls have feelings different than boys? And that she is having feelings for him?

Yes.

But mostly because Ron hasn’t said anything about the kiss she gave him.

That’s why it so significant that she is so nasty to him at this particular moment. Harry’s not so idyllic first kiss brings up the sticky, unresolved subject of that good luck kiss. She’s given Ron a rather risky public display of affection (PDA) and he’s said/done nothing. He hasn’t reciprocated. And his attitude to Harry’s kiss is like rubbing salt into an open wound. So what does Hermione do – she turns her hurt into anger and takes it out on Ron (the cause of the whole thing in the first place – as she sees it).

If she didn’t have feelings for Ron why would she even care? Sure he could be a bit more mature about it (Harry could, too). But why attack him? And only him. If it didn’t matter? If she didn’t have some sort of vested interest in how it turned out?

Continue to parts 4 &5 here:
http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=1417180&postcount=32

[stic]

The dirt on his nose, correct? And then, we get on the train, and what’s one of the first things Hermione points out to Ron? The dirt on his nose!Do you really want to go into the dangerous waters of arguing that Hermione merely acts like a mother to Ron?
Ron himself says in OotP that Hermione sounds like his mother.
And if there is one person besides Harry that Ron needs to disentangle himself from to grow up, it's his mother... :rotfl:

Hermione made Ron feel he was "bound to be rubbish"; but for Luna, he's the king......make your choice, Ron-fans... :rotfl:

[Charmed Cheese]

What me and daz are arguing is: Why did Jo write it like she did? Why not write Ron and Hermione having the same doubts about the Sirius rescue mission and have them trying to convince Harry? Why not have at the end Harry realizing : "R/Hr were right." , showing the growth of the R/Hr bond??
Why write instead Ron being afraid to give his opinion at all, then siding with Harry against Hermione, backed up by nothing but nonsense-arguments? Why prepare this huge growth of Harry's trust in Hermione in the last two books while Ron is useless?

Actually, I found there was a shift that was leaning more towards R/Hr.

In past books, Ron's the first one to get angry with Hermione and object to her interference. This is the first book where Ron steps back. He still backs Harry up, but not as strong as he used used to. I think Ron's very confused right now, and part of him wanted to listen and trust Hermione, yet another part wanted to stand by Harry (especially since his own father was almost killed then saved by Harry's dream). Ron seemed very relieved when Harry conceeded to Hermione and Ron was active and willing to do whatever Hermione said. Ron is listening to and respecting Hermione more and more as time goes on.

Why highlight Hermione's role? Why not? Perhaps Rowling felt that she wanted to focus on their friendship. Rowling could simply be developping a very sweet and powerful friendship between the two that will be able withstand what's coming. I also have a feeling that Rowling wants Hermione's role really stable and prominent so that the love interest won't outshine her.

There are plenty of reasons to focus on Hermione that have nothing to do with a romance.

[Droogish]

That’s why it so significant that she is so nasty to him at this particular moment. Harry’s not so idyllic first kiss brings up the sticky, unresolved subject of that good luck kiss. She’s given Ron a rather risky public display of affection (PDA) and he’s said/done nothing. He hasn’t reciprocated. And his attitude to Harry’s kiss is like rubbing salt into an open wound. So what does Hermione do – she turns her hurt into anger and takes it out on Ron (the cause of the whole thing in the first place – as she sees it).

Gosh, I hadn't thought of that either. The kiss is a mjor selling point, as are her later comments, but I'd never linked them. You've got an excellent point though...

[Dark Emperor]

Bravo KADH That was a good arguement, except she also goes out of her way to help Neville in Potions since first year. That doesn't nessessarily mean she likes him more than as a good friend. Also compared to reactions she has to Harry's achievements....well..it kind of falls flat. Also you must also compare those times she consoled him to the times she was outright cold with him. Alot LOT more common.

[yxs]

I think Hermione has a crush on Ron, but loves Harry already, without knowing.

When I put all these books together, read them from the first one to the fifth, this is what I see.

I think the next book will "resolve" the Ron and Hermione thing... it's getting there.

[daz]

Larry King I think in October of 2000. Larry asked her about why Harry was a boy and not a herione:

King: Why not then a heroine? Why isn't this Helene Potter?

Rowling: Very good question. I was -- this is weird -- I writing the books for six months, before I stopped and thought: Well, he's a boy. How did that happen? Why is he a boy? Why isn't it Harriet? And number one, it was too late. Harry was too real by then for me to try to put him in a dress. That wasn't going to work. And then there was Hermione -- and Hermione is an indispensable part of the books and how the adventures happen.


So not metion of Ron here is there

[Droogish]

Do you really want to go into the dangerous waters of arguing that Hermione merely acts like a mother to Ron?
Ron himself says in OotP that Hermione sounds like his mother.
And if there is one person besides Harry that Ron needs to disentangle himself from to grow up, it's his mother... :rotfl:

Hermione made Ron feel he was "bound to be rubbish"; but for Luna, he's the king......make your choice, Ron-fans... :rotfl:

I'm like the biggest Ron fan in the world, which is why I want his character to be happy. honestly, he's not remotely attracted to luna, is he? However, evn you have to agree he at least has a crush on herms, even if you don't think the feelings mutual. Why would I want ron to be with someone he doesn't really care about?

[McBeth]

I think Hermione has a crush on Ron, but loves Harry already, without knowing.

How can you crush on someone and love another at the same time? Sorry, that just doesn't make sense to me. Personally, I think Hermione is more in touch with her feelings than that.

And even if she did love Harry subconciously, you'd think we would have had at least one "Hermione looked at Harry adoringly," wouldn't you?

[Charmed Cheese]

Do you really want to go into the dangerous waters of arguing that Hermione merely acts like a mother to Ron?
Ron himself says in OotP that Hermione sounds like his mother.
And if there is one person besides Harry that Ron needs to disentangle himself from to grow up, it's his mother... :rotfl:

Hermione made Ron feel he was "bound to be rubbish"; but for Luna, he's the king......make your choice, Ron-fans... :rotfl:

Ron will have to make a choice between having a girl that worships him (Luna) or a girl who can give him honest and true love: Hermione. I think Ron should choose to be in a relationship, and not a sequence of "ego-stroking" sessions.

Also, in regards to the dirt on Ron's nose, I love that in PS, Hermione pointed out the smallest of smudges, and in OotP, Ron comes in after his bad Quidditch game flithy with dirt everywhere and Hermione's reaction is out of concern for his mental state and making sure he comes to sit by the fire to warm up. Suddenly a little dirt on him doesn't matter.

[McBeth]

Do you really want to go into the dangerous waters of arguing that Hermione merely acts like a mother to Ron?
Ron himself says in OotP that Hermione sounds like his mother.
And if there is one person besides Harry that Ron needs to disentangle himself from to grow up, it's his mother... :rotfl:

Hermione made Ron feel he was "bound to be rubbish"; but for Luna, he's the king......make your choice, Ron-fans... :rotfl:

Firstly, a lot of men fall in love with a woman who reminds them of their mother in some way, so I don't know how this goes against Heron.

Secondly, it would not be good for Ron's maturing to get together with Luna if she thinks he's "king". . . it'll just make his head swell and swell, until it's fit to burst.

[Droogish]

So not metion of Ron here is there

And your point here? Ron isn't rellevant to the topic, She's talking about why Harry isn't a girl, not why he doesn't have red hair in freckals. She's saying that Hermione is already the heroine, and for a specific reason, therefore she doesn't need another one. Ron, however, is more of a sidekick than 'the hero'. That doesn't mean he doesn't have an important part or that he can't 'get the girl'

[yxs]

Why would I want ron to be with someone he doesn't really care about?
He might start doing that... people change in that age.

I'm a big Ron fan myself... and that's the reason I don't want him with Hermione so much.
She cares, but often doesn't appreciate him as much as he deserves.
I think Ron deserves to be happy with someone who doesn't think about her other best guy friend half of the time and treats him as The King, yes.

[KADH]

Things that just don’t make sense… Parts 4 &6

Continued from

http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=1417109&postcount=19

I swear this is the last bit - happy shreading :)

4) Well, no you’re not…

Thankfully, Hermione’s personal attacks on Ron are almost entirely limited to that moment. And after Christmas and that bottle of perfume, Hermione’s calmed down a bit. You see a change from harshHermione towards sighingHermione. There’s a movement away from anger and frustration towards a calmer almost longing attitude regarding Ron. An attitude that just doesn’t make sense to me if Hermione doesn’t have feelings for Ron.

Again, we’re back to Hermione giving Harry advice regarding Cho, which of course is a prime opportunity for JKR to reveal what’s going on with R/HR (JKR seems to like to use Harry’s little love problems as an opportunity to reveal bits about the R/Hr relationship, hence Harry big first kiss occurs off page and Ron and Hermione’s responses cover 5 whole pages – hmm wonder which is more important).

Here, Hermione is trying to explain Cho’s jealousy. I’m going to split this up a bit and cover each part separately.

“But I don’t think you’re ugly,” said Harry bemused.
Hermione laughed.
“Harry, you’re worse than Ron…. Well no you’re not,” she sighed, as Ron himself came stumping into the Hall splattered with mud and looking grumpy (572).

Hermione’s line just doesn’t make sense to me, if she’s not interested in Ron. Why bring Ron up in the first place as he doesn’t arrive until after she’s spoken of him? That in itself if sort of strange – there are several moments where Hermione is talking about Ron only to have him magically appear – hmmm, interesting but slightly off topic, sorry.

We know why Hermione thinks Harry is clueless (because of his inability to read/understand Cho), but what reference does Hermione have to Ron’s cluelessness?

We shippers all agree that Ron’s interested in Hermione, that he hasn’t been displaying any real interest in anyone else since GOF, so Hermione can only be referring to Ron’s lack of understanding as regards her.

So what is Ron not understanding? Hermione explains it Harry :

“Look you upset Cho when you said you were going to meet me, so she tried to make you jealous. It was her way of trying to find out how much you liked her” (572).

Hermione has tried this trick with Ron just before Christmas with that lovely long letter to Krum. Hermione knew right well that Ron usually displays his jealous side every time Krum comes up. He always rises to the Krum bait. And Hermione wanted to know after that good luck kiss if Ron liked her, so she pulled the Krum card out. Unfortunately, Ron has decided to grow up a bit after that little kiss and decides not to rise to Hermione’s bait at least to her face (Ron does bring it up with Harry however, but he’s asking the wrong person or at least the wrong question with “what does she see in Krum?”). Hermione’s been fishing – unfortunately she used the wrong bait. And Ron like Harry, didn’t get what she was doing. So Hermione didn’t get answer to her question until Ron’s little perfume gift (more on this later).

So Hermione goes back to explaining to Harry. Unfortunately, the moment for self-confession is over as Ron has joined them at the table (If only he’d arrived 30 seconds earlier – I would love to have heard his response to the worse than comment). Back to Hermione’s explanation which has all the sudden got a lot more general:

“Is that what she was doing?” said Harry as Ron dropped onto the bench opposite them and pulled every dish within reach toward himself. “Well wouldn’t it have been easier if she’d just asked me if I liked her better than you?”
“Girls don’t often ask questions like that,” said Hermione (573).

This may explain why Hermione doesn’t just ask Ron. Girls just don’t and the guys just don’t get it. As Harry demonstrates.

“Well they should!” said Harry forcefully. “then I could’ve just told her I fancy her, and she wouldn’t have had to get herself all worked up again about Cedric dying!”
“I’m not saying what she did was sensible,” said Hermione, as Ginny joined them, just as muddy as Ron and looking equally disgruntled. “I’m just trying to make you see how she was feeling at the time” (573-4).


5) Perfume and Hermione’s inability to compliment Ron

Okay, its now later, the place where I promised to go back to a couple of major points from above (thank you for you patience – if you’ve read this far you should be knighted :)).

Little niggling things that people wonder about:
1) Why Krum never brings up Ron
2) Why Hermione can’t come up with what Ron is in the midst of the Prefect Badge confusion
3) Why Hermione can’t come up with something nice to say regarding Ron and Quidditch (when his first practice goes so bad)
4) Why Ron’s gift at Christmas was only “unusual”

Each of these things means very little on their own. You can explain them away individually quite easily (I am saying the below for the sake of argument, not because I believe it).

1) Hermione doesn’t talk about Ron to Krum, only Harry
2) Hermione doesn’t really think Ron deserves the badge
3) Hermione can’t think of something nice to say about Ron
4) She really liked Harry’s gift and wasn’t so keen on Ron’s, but didn’t want to hurt Ron’s feelings.

But as you can imagine, I think there is something else at work, here. A bigger pattern. Hermione can’t compliment Ron, not because she doesn’t have anything nice to say about him (come on Ron’s not that bad is he?) But because compliments can be revealing. And if Hermione doesn’t have feelings for Ron, there’s no reason for her not to compliment him publicly. After all she compliments Harry all the time, no problem, no hesitation.

But when it comes to getting personal with Ron – showing affection in words or touch, Hermione’s in a bit a bind, because her compliments could indict her. She could say too much and tip her hand, she could reveal her feelings. And all hell could break loose.

It isn’t safe for her to talk to Krum about Ron, because Krum might just pick up that Hermione fancies Ron and not Harry. She is flustered over the prefect badge (and rightly so as EVERYONE including Ron and Harry believed that Harry would get it), wants to say something good about Ron, but then the twins and Harry and Ginny are there and Mrs. Weasley walks in at just the wrong moment. Ron doesn’t let her console him after his awful Quidditch practice. The conversation about Christmas presents is cut short by Ron, who (I think might just be a little self conscious of his gift) quickly steers the topic of conversation onto something, anything else. Hermione never really gets the chance to open up about Ron. We only get to see those tortured moments of hesitation (for someone who is normally not hesitant about anything – I wonder if Ron sometimes doesn’t make Hermione just a little nervous and vice versa). JKR refuses to let us Hermione’s expression her feelings about Ron, not because Hermione doesn’t have them, but because revealing Hermione’s feelings so openly would break the suspense and kill the anticipation that JKR has been building since GOF (or arguable even from POA). JKR is not going to give us the easy answer (note she never gives us the easy answer – only clues), she not going to settle it that easily. But she leaves Hermione’s unresolved awkwardness there for a reason.

So what do we have? Of course, no conclusive proof that Hermione has non-platonic feelings for Ron. Still no screaming Las Vegas marquee. But there is something there. Hermione is in her way (remembering that Hermione at heart isn’t a rule breaker or risk taker), trying to show that she does have feelings for Ron. She may not be fawning all over him or making moony eyes at Ron, but Hermione is showing active interest, not disinterest in him.

Otherwise, the strange Quidditch behavior, the very public kiss, the undue animosity towards Ron after, the weighing of Ron and Harry’s cluelessness towards girls and the inability for Hermione to say nice things about Ron publicly just doesn’t make sense.

[LordIluvatar]

Im sorry but in ootp i really didnt see any evidence showing ron likes hermione or hermione likes ron. In gof i saw evidence to suggest ron likes hermione. But if that were the case i think jkr would of followed it up more in ootp, which she really didnt. The only real evidence in ootp that i see you can make a case for showing ron likes hermione is ron giving her perfume for christmas, but then again i already gave my mom and sister perfume for a gift, so that really isnt saying much. But in ootp i see nottin for r/hr. Sorry i read the books at least 5 times looking for shipping evidence, and i see no heron evidence in it really. One of the main reasons i definitly think harmony will sail :p

Thankfully, Hermione’s personal attacks on Ron are almost entirely limited to that moment. And after Christmas and that bottle of perfume, Hermione’s calmed down a bit. You see a change from harshHermione towards sighingHermione. There’s a movement away from anger and frustration towards a calmer almost longing attitude regarding Ron. An attitude that just doesn’t make sense to me if Hermione doesn’t have feelings for Ron.
You put a lot of work into your essay so congrats, it just happens that i dont beleive a word of it. To me it makes perfect sense why hermione doesnt like ron...

[stic]

CC wrote:Actually, I found there was a shift that was leaning more towards R/Hr. How often in OotP did Jo wrote Hermione being angry because Ron didn't back her up, denied his support, left her hanging until it was safe to rejoin the decision-making process? Why do that? :huh:

He still backs Harry up, but not as strong as he used used to. I think Ron's very confused right now, and part of him wanted to listen and trust Hermione, yet another part wanted to stand by Harry Yes, and he never gets it quite right when it's really important. I agree, back in PoA and GoF everything Hermione said or did to keep Harry alive was "party-crashing",
interfering, exaggerating and annoying to Ron. In OotP he now accepted that Hermione is right ....quite....uhm often but still stands by Harry first and foremost. Jo wrote him leaving Hermione hanging when she needed his trust and support most. :huh:

[LordGrindelwald]

Ron will have to make a choice between having a girl that worships him (Luna) or a girl who can give him honest and true love: Hermione. I think Ron should choose to be in a relationship, and not a sequence of "ego-stroking" sessions.

Yep. Also, it must be noted that Luna knows almost nothing whatsoever about Ron's personality, so I don't take her "worship" of him too seriously.

[LordIluvatar]

Yep. Also, it must be noted that Luna knows almost nothing whatsoever about Ron's personality, so I don't take her "worship" of him too seriously.
I believe ron needs a girl that practiclly worships him and will alawys be there for him 24/7. And frankly thats not hermione, i definitly think it makes alot more sense for r/l then r/hr.

[Night Shade]

Yep. Also, it must be noted that Luna knows almost nothing whatsoever about Ron's personality, so I don't take her "worship" of him too seriously.

Yeah I mean she was just 14 and had a crush. Its not that big of a deal.

[stic]

CC wrote: Ron will have to make a choice between having a girl that worships him (Luna) or a girl who can give him honest and true love: Hermione. And I say Hermione's attempts to "fix" Ron always have made him feel and always will make him feel like he's "broken". :eyebrows:
Show me the things he has learned from her.
I think Ron should choose to be in a relationship, and not a sequence of "ego-stroking" sessions.Ginny ---->Harry was worshipping/fan-girl.
Luna just seems to see the qualities of Ron more than Hermione does. :eyebrows: And she doesn't take Doxy-Droppings from him either.

Lord Iluvatar wrote to KADH:You put a lot of work into your essay so congrats, it just happens that i dont beleive a word of it. To me it makes perfect sense why hermione doesnt like ron...
:rotfl: I'd sign these words of yours, LordIluvatar...

[yxs]

How can you crush on someone and love another at the same time? Sorry, that just doesn't make sense to me. Personally, I think Hermione is more in touch with her feelings than that.

She's a 16 year old girl. (We shouldn't forget). And she's only just starting to experience romantical love.
Someone just posted long examples of how she's just starting to work through her crush on Ron, how she doesn't know how to react to it or handle it yet.
She loves Harry very deeply as a friend, even too much for a friend. She doesn't notice it, as she's too "busy with Ron".
They're two wonderful guys and Hermione is just starting to experience feelings more than friendship. Let her first get through this confusion with Ron, then we'll see.
I don't expect to see H/Hr romance in the books, in fact. If they both realize it, it will be in the end.

[LordGrindelwald]

I believe ron needs a girl that practiclly worships him and will alawys be there for him 24/7. And frankly thats not hermione, i definitly think it makes alot more sense for r/l then r/hr.

The exact same can be said for Krum and Hermione. Krum seems to worship Hermione, though he doesn't know her at all, so why not get them together?

Krum would at least appreciate all Hermione would do for him, and we've seen that Hermione is very flattered by Krum's attention. So by your logic, he would make the perfect boyfriend for Hermione.

Yet when Hermione does so much for Harry, Harry doesn't seem to show that much interest or gratitude. Barely even a word of thanks. Barely any compliments to her face. Hermione doesn't get no regard, no regard at all!

[Night Shade]

The exact same can be said for Krum and Hermione. Krum seems to worship Hermione, though he doesn't know her at all, so why not get them together?

Krum would at least appreciate all Hermione would do for him, and we've seen that Hermione is very flattered by Krum's attention. And by your logic, he would make the perfect boyfriend for Hermione.

Yet when Hermione does so much for Harry, Harry doesn't seem to show that much interest or gratitude. Barely even a word of thanks. Barely any compliments to her face. Hermione doesn't get no regard, no regard at all!

Exactly!

[stic]

LG wrote:Yet when Hermione does so much for Harry, Harry doesn't seem to show that much interest or gratitude. Barely even a word of thanks. Barely any compliments to her face. Hermione doesn't get no regard, no regard at all! Do you honestly think that Jo will never write Harry coming to his senses about how friggin much Hermione has done and sacrificed for him? About how often she has been right when he was wrong? :eyebrows:
Imagine what these feelings will do which have not yet been felt.

[yxs]

Barely any compliments to her face. Hermione doesn't get no regard, no regard at all!
That's why it might be "saved" for the very end.... when the oh so ungrateful Harry realizes that love is all... in so many ways... first, when it comes to Voldemort of course.

[LordIluvatar]

Yeah I mean she was just 14 and had a crush. Its not that big of a deal.
And ron was 14 and had a crush on hermione and will get over it, if he hasnt already. If r/hr could devolp into romance, why not r/l?


Yet when Hermione does so much for Harry, Harry doesn't seem to show that much interest or gratitude. Barely even a word of thanks. Barely any compliments to her face. Hermione doesn't get no regard, no regard at all!
And ron does show interest and gratitude? And if you really think harry isnt thankfull and will never show gratitude you must not think much of him and jkr. Harry already started to see how important hermione was to him in ootp if you havnt noticed.

[AsKPeeVes]

And ron was 14 and had a crush on hermione and will get over it, if he hasnt already. If r/hr could devolp into romance, why not r/l?
Because ron shows no interest in luna thats why....

[yxs]

And ron was 14 and had a crush on hermione and will get over it, if he hasnt already.

EXACTLY

Jo Rowling loves little romance here and there... the books would be boring without it

[Droogish]

what the heck? How much sappier can we get? the way R/H works, it's just less... mush.

[LordIluvatar]

Because ron shows no interest in luna thats why....
And hermione has shown that type of interest in ron? Ill anwser for you...NO

[linzee4life]

I'm getting a little tired of arguing this point, so what did I do? I wrote a mini essay on it. :p

Harry’s Jealousy- It’s not over Ron and Hermione being together as a couple, or otherwise.

The page numbers are all from the American Hardback edition of the OotP.

The point I would like to tackle is whether or not Harry was mad that Ron and Hermione were together or the fact that Harry was alone all summer while his best friends were having fun without him. I obviously go for the second reason. It is my opinion that Harry wasn’t angry that they were together without him, he was angry because he was alone. Harry was jealous because Ron and Hermione had the opportunity to have a decent summer, while he, himself, was cooped up in the Dursley household. This is why.

Page 8
He could hardly bare to think of the pair of them having fun at the Burrow when he was stuck in Privet Drive. In fact, he was so angry at them that he had thrown both of their birthday presents of Honeyduke’s chocolates away unopened, though he had regretted this after eating the wilting salad Aunt Pettunia had provided for dinner that night.
Harry has had all summer to do nothing but ponder in his own thoughts. His best friends, Ron and Hermione, are in the same place having fun. How dare they? They are having fun without Harry. This shows Harry’s jealousy. He is jealous of their fun.

Page 8
And what were Ron and Hermione busy with? Why wasn’t he, Harry, busy? Hadn’t he proved himself capable of handling much more than they? Had they all forgotten what he had done? Hadn’t it been he who had entered that graveyard and watched Cedric being murdered and been tied to that tombstone and nearly killed…?[/indent}
Harry has been through so much here. He knows that. He doesn’t think it is in the least bit fair that his friends are having fun and he isn’t. He should be busy with them, not stuck trying to listen to news through the open window in Privet Drive.

[indent]Page 8
Don’t think about that, Harry told himself sternly for the hundredth time that summer. It was bad enough that he kept revisiting the graveyard in his nightmares, without dwelling on it in his waking moments.
As we can see here, Harry has been thinking about the graveyard all summer. He has had nightmares. It affects his everyday life. Because of this, he should be the one having the fun. In my opinion, Harry’s jealousy is very understandable. He has just had a traumatic experience.

Page 65
“SO YOU HAVEN’T BEEN IN THE MEETINGS, BIG DEAL! YOU’VE STILL BEEN HERE, HAVEN’T YOU? YOU’VE STILL BEEN TOGETHER! ME, I’VE BEEN STUCK AT THE DURSLEYS’ FOR A MONTH! AND I’VE HANDLED MORE THAN YOU TWO’VE EVER MANAGED AND DUMBLEDORE KNOWS IT – WHO SAVED THE SORCERER’S STONE? WHO GOT RID OF RIDDLE? WHO SAVED BOTH YOUR SKINS FROM THE DEMENTORS?”
Here it is out of Harry’s own mouth. Ron and Hermione have been there. Harry has been stuck at Privet Drive. Ron and Hermione haven’t been through nearly as much as Harry has. Harry has even saved their skins. Why should they get to be there, but Harry can’t? Harry is jealous. He wanted to be there having fun with them. He thinks he should have been there with them.

Pages 65-66
Every bitter and resentful thought that Harry had had in the past month was pouring out of him; his frustration as the lack of news, the hurt that they had all been together without him, his fury at being followed and not told about it: All the feelings he was half ashamed of finally, burst their boundaries.
Harry has been thinking of not only not having fun, but other things as well. He is mad at the lack of news and his being followed. This whole outburst is not just about Harry being jealous over Ron and Hermione having fun without him. This outburst is about every feeling that Harry has been thinking over the last month. He has been ashamed of these feelings. Why is he ashamed? He knows there are out of jealousy. This is why he was ashamed. As for the bolded part, this is particularly interesting to me. Harry doesn’t use the words Ron and Hermione. He says all. All would include more people than just Ron and Hermione. He has been thinking about everyone: Hermione, the whole Weasley clan, Sirius, and Lupin. He isn’t just jealous of Ron and Hermione. Harry is jealous of them all.

The rest of Harry’s conversation with Ron and Hermione is just reiterating my point. Harry goes on to say what he has done and how he is worthy of being there. Then it is resolved finally after Harry gets all of his frustrations out. In conclusion, Harry wasn’t angry because Ron and Hermione were there together as a couple or otherwise. He is jealous of them having fun without him. He is angry that everyone was there. He is angry that they knew more than he did when he was the one to go through everything last year, not them. Harry builds up all of his frustrations because of his anger for everything, not because of his nonexistent jealousy of Ron and Hermione as a couple or otherwise.

[Droogish]

I don't think we give ron engough credit. I think he realizes what hermione does more than we notice, he just doesn't know how to react to it

[LordIluvatar]

I don't think we give ron engough credit. I think he realizes what hermione does more than we notice, he just doesn't know how to react to it
Perhaps, but you cant prove it so it doesnt really matter :p


The point I would like to tackle is whether or not Harry was mad that Ron and Hermione were together or the fact that Harry was alone all summer while his best friends were having fun without him. I obviously go for the second reason. It is my opinion that Harry wasn’t angry that they were together without him, he was angry because he was alone. Harry was jealous because Ron and Hermione had the opportunity to have a decent summer, while he, himself, was cooped up in the Dursley household. This is why.

I agree with you, harry wasnt mad that ron and hermione were alone together all summer, by the way they wernt. But yes i agree with you harry was just mad that he was alone at the durslys, not knowing what as going on and what not. But i guess we really dont know if harry was jealous that hermione and ron were alone, because once he gets there hermione tells him all they did was clean so that calmed him donw. But yea i agree with you on this one.

[AsKPeeVes]

And hermione has shown that type of interest in ron? Ill anwser for you...NO
Well then R/L and R/Hr are one sided..Wicth i dont agree with.. Hermy shows interest just its not as clear as Rons is..:)
linzee4life i like your essay!

[stic]

LGThe exact same can be said for Krum and Hermione. Krum seems to worship Hermione, though he doesn't know her at all, so why not get them together? Because Krum seems to be a mere side-lines-character.
Krum would at least appreciate all Hermione would do for him, and we've seen that Hermione is very flattered by Krum's attention. So by your logic, he would make the perfect boyfriend for Hermione. Story-telling-wise?? Certainly not. How, I ask you, could Jo write Hr/K not pathetically? Repeating over and over the concept of Hermione slipping bits of information into the story when asked? When she's been on some holidays with Krum???? :huh:
She is always needed at Hogwarts, around Harry; we saw it in OotP. Besides, it would be a gigantic waste of an important part of the female character #1 in the books. We wouldn't have seen it, neither would we see satisfyingly enough R/Hr.

[LordIluvatar]

Well then R/L and R/Hr are one sided..Wicth i dont agree with.. Hermy shows interest just its not as clear as Rons is..:)
linzee4life i like your essay!
Right now, as the books have it, it is pretty much is one sided, unless you can prove to me hermione obvisouly likes ron...which i know you cant. Since in ootp i really dont see any heron evidence as it is.

[Droogish]

Proof. You want proof? So do I. I haven't seen a single book reference from the H/Hrs for the last four or five posts at least. Where as we've given book reference after book reference. Im serious, I f sombody can show me canon book proof of Harmony, i want to see it, desperately

[yxs]

How can you crush on someone and love another at the same time?

Because there's a difference between real love and a crush

I don't think a 16 year old girl can understand it quite so well yet

But Jo can, she's a lot older than Hermione :eyebrows:

[LordIluvatar]

Proof. You want proof? So do I. I haven't seen a single book reference from the H/Hrs for the last four or five posts at least. Where as we've given book reference after book reference. Im serious, I f sombody can show me canon book proof of Harmony, i want to see it, desperately
Hmm..i suggest you go back to the old threads, since you only been here two days....i suggest thread 17 - 20 are really good. But you can go to portkey also...there is alot out there

[daz]

how do i look at the old threads do i do a seach

[XxLethifoldxX]

Hello everyone Im new here and Just wanted to say Hello, and that I ship H/Hr which is Harmony I believe. :tu: Any other Harmony Shipers in here?

[AsKPeeVes]

Right now, as the books have it, it is pretty much is one sided, unless you can prove to me hermione obvisouly likes ron...which i know you cant. Since in ootp i really dont see any heron evidence as it is.
I never said that there obvious it really just depends how you and i read the books and when i read GOF i got obvious hints that she liked ron in ootp it was differnt and they were more beneath the surfuse...But since you Know i can't prove that Hermione likes Ron im not going to waste my time..:)

[yxs]

Hello everyone Im new here and Just wanted to say Hello, and that I ship H/Hr which is Harmony I believe. :tu: Any other Harmony Shipers in here?
Not so many, hehee... as you can see
But there are people who believe it might happen, indeed

[XxLethifoldxX]

Not so many, hehee... as you can see
But there are people who believe it might happen, indeed

Its ok :) as long as their are believers :)

[daz]

Im a Harmony as well.

[caro1984]

I'm also a Harry/Hermione shipper. I've been reading the posts in this thread for a while. I'm looking forward to posting in this thread. :cool:

[TruFortune89]

Hey ... (1st post on new version)
Just want to tell everyone I support Heron and Moonlight ... F.Y.I ... :huh:

[XxLethifoldxX]

Im a Harmony as well.

Happy to hear it daz! It will be an honor to Ship with you :)

[LordIluvatar]

how do i look at the old threads do i do a seach
Go into history of magic, and then into history of magic reference books or something like that, and they have all the old love threads :p

Hello everyone Im new here and Just wanted to say Hello, and that I ship H/Hr which is Harmony I believe. :tu: Any other Harmony Shipers in here?
Yep, harmonian since book 1 :p

[AsKPeeVes]

Hey ... (1st post on new version)
Just want to tell everyone I support Heron and Moonlight ... F.Y.I ... :huh:
sAMe here sorry XxLethifoldxX no harmony for me..:)

[Night Shade]

No Harmony for me either. As you can see in my sig.

[AvadaKedavra]

Yeah, well, very sorry for Rowling and all that jazz, but she can't dictate for people who to like and who to dislike -- it doesn't matter that she likes Ron, or that she wants everyone else to like Ron as well, if a person does not like Ron, then a person does not like Ron. It's that simple. People are entitled to their own thoughts and ideas about characters, independent of the author's feelings on the matter.

So far, correct- I agree 100%. But in the case you somehow [don't ask me] thought that I don't allow freedom of opinion amongst people, I invite you to come up with a quote that shows me saying that a person is not entitled to their opinion just because it's different from JKR's.

And if one subscribes to the "the author is dead" school of thought, then it really doesn't matter what Rowling thinks of her characters. Once she puts the books out there, she cannot control how people feel about them.

Here, you're wrong. JKR is not dead. She is very much alive. She is halfway through writing the sixth book, possibly even as I post this. And this thread happens to be about guessing/predicting the future of the romances.

So if someone like clearcell comes along and starts bashing one of JKR's favourite characters and saying that this character is unsuitable for Hermione because of his/her opinion of that character, I am perfectly entitled to use JKR's opinion and point out that clearcell's opinion is completely different from JKR's.

If we are trying to work out where the romances are headed then JKR's opinion at this stage is highly important if we are to deduce who is more likely to end up with who. clearcell is of course, entitled to his/her opinion of Ron, but once he/she starts bashing Ron in the course of explaining why he/she thinks Ron is unsuitable for Hermione, his/her opinion loses credibility/factual basis because it differs from JKR's.

Example: I think Draco Malfoy is an amazing, sexy bad boy. I would love to see him woo Hermione. Draco is beautiful, he should end up with Hermione.

JKR has publicly said Draco isn't lovely, he is rather evil and she can't understand why people love him so much in the Fandom. I am entitled to have my private opinion of Draco, but if I use it for shipping, it is completely useless because JKR, the god, does not agree with it.

Oh dear.

Signing out,

Avada

P.S

Stic

Funny man, you.

[XxLethifoldxX]

sAMe here sorry XxLethifoldxX no harmony for me..:)
Thats ok Peeves You can still be my friend ;)

[daz]

Happy to hear it daz! It will be an honor to Ship with you :)


Awwwwww thanks.Thats sweet to say.Portkey is really good for Harmony

[Charmed Cheese]

CC wrote: How often in OotP did Jo wrote Hermione being angry because Ron didn't back her up, denied his support, left her hanging until it was safe to rejoin the decision-making process? Why do that? :huh:


Ah yes, but don't overlook the issue that Hermione is actually looking for Ron's support and opinion. When did that happen? ;) :p

[JBrown]

the main reason why I support each of my ships.

1) HMS Chocolate - Harry and Ginny have both suffered at the hands of Lord Voldemort, and Ginny already has a thing for Harry and yes I still beliveve it exists even though she is dating now. I believe she is waiting for a sign from Harry.

2) HMS Heron - This ship has more evidence than anyone should ever put in a single post.

3) HMS Waxing Gibbous - I would just really like to see happen.

[Charmed Cheese]

I believe ron needs a girl that practiclly worships him and will alawys be there for him 24/7. And frankly thats not hermione, i definitly think it makes alot more sense for r/l then r/hr.

*laughs* A lot of guys want that type of girl and they're still looking. :p

[LordGrindelwald]

LG wrote: Do you honestly think that Jo will never write Harry coming to his senses about how friggin much Hermione has done and sacrificed for him? About how often she has been right when he was wrong? :eyebrows:
Imagine what these feelings will do which have not yet been felt.

Yes, I do see him eventually coming to his senses, and realizing that, hey, she often is right. But I don't see him developing feelings for her when he hasn't in all 5 books.

And ron does show interest and gratitude?

Yes. More than Harry does. Absolutely.

[AsKPeeVes]

Thats ok Peeves You can still be my friend ;)
Ahh thanks a new friend;) Well do any of my fellow Herons have an essay on canon for Hr liking Ron???

[stic]

linzee4life,
remember the trio "welcoming" at the beginning of OotP.
The first person that we exclusively see reacting for quite a while to Harry is Hermione. Harry automatically reacts positively about Ron as well when only Hermione is then to be credited for keeping the warm glow glowing.

As soon as Hermione's actions and rushed but well-chosen words are ended by Ron we see Ron's (non-physical) attempts to get close to his best pal after a terrible month and ...... he manages to cause the glow to extinguish. :huh:
Right from the beginning Jo wrote Ron and Harry drifting apart while H/Hr get closer. Ron gets the prefect badge (creates tension with Harry) and Jo demonstrates how Ron leaves Hermione hanging when she has to do difficult and unpopular prefect decisions, thus contrasting the ever-improving H/Hr teamwork. Ron gets to play Quidditch, soon Harry gets banned. H/Hr get the DA going, Ron just follows.

It just never ends.

Jo rarely writes out Harry's thoughts and reflections without strange holes or wrong assumptions; we don't get to read his thoughts on the christmas gift he planned to give Hermione at all, yet his choice is dead-on.
A small example for a writing style that can hide an elephant behind a palm tree. :evil:

[yxs]

A small example for a writing style that can hide an elephant behind a palm tree. :evil:
Could not have said it better

[TruFortune89]

sAMe here sorry XxLethifoldxX no harmony for me..:)

Cool ! ! ! !

[XxLethifoldxX]

I did my sig In Honor of the love thread. Credits to Gwendy of cource.

So whats the argument today on Ron being perfect for Hermione and Harry not :) Personaly I think that Heron will happen but wont last.

[FoxyDoxy]

Why isn't there a Ginny/Dean ship? They're together aren't they? why shouldn't it stay that way? It'd be really sweet if they survive atleast one book! I mean come on, the only new relationship to survive more than one book is Hagrid and Mme Maxime and they live in different countries!

Ginny and Dean
Harry and Hermione
Ron's dead (sorry but this ain't a fairytale- not everyone gets to live happy ever after. Atleast I bloody hope not! JK should keep up the realism!)

[Moonstruck]

I did my sig In Honor of the love thread. Credits to Gwendy of cource.

So whats the argument today on Ron being perfect for Hermione and Harry not :) Personaly I think that Heron will happen but wont last.

Who's the girl with the dark hair?

[AsKPeeVes]

Who's the girl with the dark hair?
cho chang

[XxLethifoldxX]

Who's the girl with the dark hair?

Cho i belive But thts not really realistic any longer but she looks cute doesnt she. I didnt draw it tho i wish I could draw that good. Or at all for that matter.

[Moonstruck]

Cho i belive But thts not really realistic any longer but she looks cute doesnt she. I didnt draw it tho i wish I could draw that good. Or at all for that matter.

Ah! Okie-dokie!

[stic]

CC wrote:Ah yes, but don't overlook the issue that Hermione is actually looking for Ron's support and opinion And she almost never gets it.
Of course she wants his support as a second prefect, but oops....she has to do the nasty & unpopular parts of the job all by herself. Jo chose to write Ron failing her. :td: And Hermione being angry about it.
Of course Hermione wants Ron to support her keeping Harry from unnecessarily risking himself getting caught and Verita-serum/Cruciatus-Curse-questioned about all the precious knowledge about the order he has. And again, Jo wrote Ron failing Hermione. :td:
Of course, Hermione wanted Ron's support in persuading Harry to not fall for LV's trick. Hermione doesn't seek Ron's support out of love-motivation, it is just life-or-death important to convince Harry of the right thing.
And Jo wrote Ron this time even siding with Harry against Hermione; having nothing to back up his assumptions but a faulty logic. :td:

Why, CC, did Jo write it that way with R/Hr in mind? Can you answer this? :huh:

Everybody, please, no one- or two-liner posts!

Arguments....canon....grumble...

yxs = (phonetically) Why excess? :tu:

[FoxyDoxy]

Ron really took a back burner in Harry and Hermione's arguments in OotP. During the 'saving sirius' argument I actually forgot he was there. Harry and Hermione are being given increasingly more 'screne time and their relationship is building more and more with each book. Whereas Ron and Hermione's 'attraction' is growing stale. They are not growing together in the same way as harry and hermione are. They're confiding in eachother more and more. They share things with eachother and not ron. ie: umbridge making his scar hurt, Grawp and Malfoys dogging comment.
Though they do tell ron about these things he has been cut out of these 'moments'
They also tell eachother personal things, cho etc.
Hermione and harry are on the same wavelength so often in the books that they 'know how the other feels. This is why Hr is the one that pulls Harry out of his x-mas sulk.(another moment)
I think that she will be an even greater help when he is morning sirius and this will bring them closer together.

[yxs]

Ron really took a back burner in Harry and Hermione's arguments in OotP. During the 'saving sirius' argument I actually forgot he was there. Harry and Hermione are being given increasingly more 'screne time and their relationship is building more and more with each book. Whereas Ron and Hermione's 'attraction' is growing stale. They are not growing together in the same way as harry and hermione are. They're confiding in eachother more and more. They share things with eachother and not ron. ie: umbridge making his scar hurt, Grawp and Malfoys dogging comment.
Though they do tell ron about these things he has been cut out of these 'moments'
They also tell eachother personal things, cho etc.
Hermione and harry are on the same wavelength so often in the books that they 'know how the other feels. This is why Hr is the one that pulls Harry out of his x-mas sulk.(another moment)
I think that she will be an even greater help when he is morning sirius and this will bring them closer together.

It's beautiful how it's happening, I think personally.
I love this relationship part in the books.
You can't see big obvious things... but can tell and feel it.
Jo is a good writer.

[AsKPeeVes]

Can anyone actually give me canon proof foe h/hr please!

[Night Shade]

Can anyone actually give me canon proof foe h/hr please!

And could someone actually show us Herons the same spark that R/Hr have?

[FoxyDoxy]

No Askpeves, can you offer any solid evidence of R/hr? No-It's all open to interpretation- therein lies the fun.
I see them getting closer as a blossoming relationship and the cementing of a deep bond but for some bizare, unfathomable reason Herons think this is starwars and Harry and Hermione are just brother and sister.

Sorry 4 the crankfest but at 20 to 2 in the morning this insomniacs a bit touchy!

[yxs]

Sparks will fly in the last book, lol... people will die, people will defeat evil and fall in love... it seems all the answers have been saved for that last moment.

[Night Shade]

Sparks will fly in the last book, lol... people will die, people will defeat evil and fall in love... it seems all the answers have been saved for that last moment.

Yes sparks will fly. Between Ron and Hermione.

[yxs]

Yes sparks will fly. Between Ron and Hermione.
Yes, it's been repeated in here over and over... and they are already flying.
I don't see that as "reading between the lines" like Jo said.
She is a master of twists.
And there's definitely a reason for Harry's bond with Hermione, that's growing beautifully, waiting to blossom.

[stic]

FoxyDoxy wrote:Whereas Ron and Hermione's 'attraction' is growing stale. They are not growing together in the same way as harry and hermione areWhich parts of Ron's personality has Hermione integrated into her own? None? :evil:
Whereas Hermione was the only one who took Harry's "you don't know what it's like" speech to heart and managed later to come up with a plan in a matter of seconds that would get them out of Umbridge's office, got them rid of the old hag and saved them when everything seemed lost. That's not just "useful-sleuth-Hermione" anymore. That's the other half of Harry.
They could have almost done entirely without Ron in OotP whereas Hermione has become absolutely indispensable.
That action of is a kind of thing that only Harry had been able to pull off so far. She listened to Harry and took a leaf out of his book.
She, just like him, has after GoF quickly abandoned the idea of a normal life and her regular, daily focus has shifted a long time ago from merely the importance of exams and a regular school-life to what's "waiting out there".
Harry vice versa began to adopt Hermione's carefulness, discipline, planning, even some patience (Room of requirement). :tu: There is much left to be desired but Jo made it clear where the journey goes.

[Night Shade]

Yes, it's been repeated in here over and over... and they are already flying.
I don't see that as "reading between the lines" like Jo said.
She is a master of twists.
And there's definitely a reason for Harry's bond with Hermione, that's growing beautifully, waiting to blossom.

People say the same thing with Ron and Hermione.

[FoxyDoxy]

Hermione used to fancy ron but due to his social ineptitude and her progressin bond with harry he's missed out. She and harry grow EVEN closer he gets jel and there's loadsa drama.
Why are people so into this whole 'everyone pairing up and being happy deal? Someone has to be left out. Wake up and smell the hormones!This isn't candy land where everone's happy! The boys parents died in the first chapter for goodness sakes- things can only get more traumatic from here on end and the best way for JK to do that is a little romantic conflict between friends.

[AsKPeeVes]

No Askpeves, can you offer any solid evidence of R/hr? No-It's all open to interpretation- therein lies the fun.
I see them getting closer as a blossoming relationship and the cementing of a deep bond but for some bizare, unfathomable reason Herons think this is starwars and Harry and Hermione are just brother and sister.

Sorry 4 the crankfest but at 20 to 2 in the morning this insomniacs a bit touchy!
i mean any of the charaters showing feelings for other like we now that ron has feeling for hermy but we dont know thar harry or hermione have feelings for each other and at least Ron has feeling for hermy and imo she has those feeling for him also...

[SwordofHope]

Why isn't there a Ginny/Dean ship? They're together aren't they? why shouldn't it stay that way? It'd be really sweet if they survive atleast one book! I mean come on, the only new relationship to survive more than one book is Hagrid and Mme Maxime and they live in different countries!

Ginny and Dean
Harry and Hermione
Ron's dead (sorry but this ain't a fairytale- not everyone gets to live happy ever after. Atleast I bloody hope not! JK should keep up the realism!)

Why does Ron always have to die? I mean he isn't a bad charactor is he?Rowling has plenty of other charactors to kill off besides Ron. I think if Ron or Hermione dies Harry will die as well. If only one memeber of the trio is going to die it is going to be Harry, but I don't think any of them will die. Plenty of others will that will hurt the members of the trio, but not the trio.

[JBaker]

Onto the first part.

1. The Quidditch issue.
You are right that it seems likely that Hermione picked up on Ron's intentions to join the Gryffindor team, that much seems logical.
Your first example is evidence to suggest her lack of confidence in Ron. Why would she automatically assume that he is no good for, considering that his older brothers are considered to be brilliant? Yes her coolness towards him disappears (mainly because they look awful). To add insult to injury, she comes right out and tells him that it's only his first attempt and that things are bound to improve (note that she already knows him to be a quidditch fan). Surely she would have believed that he would be good, considering his background yet she doesn't.
To make it even worse, she knows that Fed and George are great beaters and that Charlie was good enough of a seeker to play for England. So, if she does like Ron, why is it that she doesn't have much faith in his quidditch abilities?
She has not been tactful about it and gone so far as to insult Ron, so of course she's trying to backpeddle. She's right of course, but that doesn't explain why she'd think that he'd be no good.
She doesn't always console Ron though.
"Hermione told him the full story... When she had finished, Ron looked even more anguished
'this is all my fault-'
'You didn't make me punch Malfoy' said Harry angrily
'it I wasn't so terrible at quidditch-'
...
Hermione got up and walked to the window, away from the argument, watching the snow swirling down against the pane"
What we see here is Ron being upset over the situation and Harry getting angry with Ron over it because it wasn't his fault. Yet all Hermione does, after telling the story is to leave the fight and look out the window. No consoling Ron, no standing up for him, nothing.
Yes she does show concern for Ron, it was a horrible situation that they found themselves in, and Ron's performance was poor. She knew his spirits would be down, yet she doesn't console him.

(Iwish I had the same book as you, this would make it a lot easier and quicker). The interesting thing about this comment is that Hermione has never before been critical of quidditch and has gone to every game. Yet I find it interesting that she has a change of attitude after Harry gets kicked off the team. She berates the game and even goes so far as to suggest that her happiness doesn't rely on Ron's keeping abilities. How is that being sympathetic towards Ron? Yes he interprets this to mean that she's talking about quidditch, but she is using Ron's keeping abilities as the example (not very confident in his ability to improve is she?).

It's possible, but she's faced a dejected Ron before, even been the cause of his dejection, yet she shows no interest in fleeing then.

Actually her no comment I believe is her realisation about the game and their victory.
"'Hermione...' said Harry slowly.
The song was growing louder, but it was issueing, not from a crowd of green-and-silver- clad Slytherins, but from a mass of Red and gold moving slowly towards the castle, bearing a solitary figure upon its many shoulders...
'No?' said Hermione in a hushed voice."

See so it is her realisation of the situation. Interestingly enough, while she is pleased (why wouldn't she be) her happiness fades quickly when they remember Grawp. It seems that her seeming love interest's greatest success and happiness so far isn't even strong enough to counter her unhappiness over Grawp.

Yes it means that she is showing pitty by putting her arm on his shoulder. And why not, they did miss his big success. As for the whole book thing, if you remember, she stops writing to Krum to talk about Cho after the kiss, because the book says she went back to writing the letter, suggesting that she was alreadly writing it.

In the end we do, but not for the reasons you think, IMO. Yes she shows concern, happiness and unhappyness over Ron during this time but she never proceeds to comfort and console him. When he is dejected after Harry is kicked off the team, Hermione backs out and stays out of the fight rather then console Ron. her disinterest in Quidditch also takes effect after Harry is kicked off the team. Her argument that she had to go but didn't want to is a blatant lie because she never once protested (further suggesting that she was merely giving him the story of what happened).

[yxs]

People say the same thing with Ron and Hermione.
Yes, they do have to work out their crush, understand what's going on.

Hey, Rowling's the one who writes it, lol. She has to have reasons for all the relationships in her book and why are they taking directions they are taking.

Nobody's saying (well some are, lol) that Ron won't get the girl (for a while).
If the girl actually loves him and is right for him... that's another story.

[SwordofHope]

Hermione used to fancy ron but due to his social ineptitude and her progressin bond with harry he's missed out. She and harry grow EVEN closer he gets jel and there's loadsa drama.
Why are people so into this whole 'everyone pairing up and being happy deal? Someone has to be left out. Wake up and smell the hormones!This isn't candy land where everone's happy! The boys parents died in the first chapter for goodness sakes- things can only get more traumatic from here on end and the best way for JK to do that is a little romantic conflict between friends.

I think the best way to make things traumatic in this series isn't a romantic conflict between friends. Sorry, but I think the war is going to be extremly traumatic. The most traumatic.

[FoxyDoxy]

Why does Ron always have to die? I mean he isn't a bad charactor is he?Rowling has plenty of other charactors to kill off besides Ron. I think if Ron or Hermione dies Harry will die as well. If only one memeber of the trio is going to die it is going to be Harry, but I don't think any of them will die. Plenty of others will that will hurt the members of the trio, but not the trio.
Just speculatio love.

i mean any of the charaters showing feelings for other like we now that ron has feeling for hermy but we dont know thar harry or hermione have feelings for each other and at least Ron has feeling for hermy and imo she has those feeling for him also...
Anything can happen in the next two books i just feel that there's more to Harry and Hermione's realtionship. There's respect and trust and a friendhip deeper than hers and Rons. Ron is attracted to her and she MIGHT be to him but to me H/he looks like there'd be more substance to it.

[JBaker]

She's a 16 year old girl. (We shouldn't forget). And she's only just starting to experience romantical love.
Someone just posted long examples of how she's just starting to work through her crush on Ron, how she doesn't know how to react to it or handle it yet.
She loves Harry very deeply as a friend, even too much for a friend. She doesn't notice it, as she's too "busy with Ron".
They're two wonderful guys and Hermione is just starting to experience feelings more than friendship. Let her first get through this confusion with Ron, then we'll see.
I don't expect to see H/Hr romance in the books, in fact. If they both realize it, it will be in the end.

While I agree with you for the most part, because I don't see Hermione being overly positive and supportive of Ron in OotP, I think she'll deal with Ron but then she'll resolve her feelings for Harry in HBP(if she does have feelings for Harry that is) (I don't think JKR will wait until the end book, mainly because she has a lot of loose ends to tie up and the big one is the war, so it's my belief that she'll want it done in HBP).

[FoxyDoxy]

I think the best way to make things traumatic in this series isn't a romantic conflict between friends. Sorry, but I think the war is going to be extremly traumatic. The most traumatic.
There's always room for more. Take LotR for example that managed to fit an apocolyptic war in with an emotional journey up a big 'ol mountain. Besides Harry needs something to fight for and I can't think of anything worth dying for other than love.

[oliveros]

Can anyone actually give me canon proof foe h/hr please!

I'll be glad to. Heres (http://www.hp-lexicon.org/essays/essay-harry-hermione.html) some, and if you want more, just tell me and I'll see if I can find it.

[marauderlupin]

I'm ba-aack. Tell me u missed me :p


Wake up and smell the hormones!This isn't candy land where everone's happy! The boys parents died in the first chapter for goodness sakes.


:rotfl:

I want your quote in my sig., person!! I said that before and people were like, "You're just a weirdo who hates Ron." For God's sake, a man had his arm ripped off and boiled in a cauldron for a ritual!!

My heart says Harmony but my brains says Heron and Moonlight. Although JKR's quote about everyone being in love with the wrong person in book 4 was largely ignored, I think it provides hope for Harmony. Duh! In book 4 Harry wants Cho and Ron wants Hermione who wants Viktor!!

H/C :td:

H/V almost :td:

R/Hr >> Is that next?

It is absolutely necessary for a development of R/Hr in book 6, if there's going to be a ship at all.

[AsKPeeVes]

Anything can happen in the next two books i just feel that there's more to Harry and Hermione's realtionship. There's respect and trust and a friendhip deeper than hers and Rons. Ron is attracted to her and she MIGHT be to him but to me H/he looks like there'd be more substance to it.
well do most h/hr ship out of hope for them like we'll get clues in the next book..or do they have much evidence from the last five?:)

[SwordofHope]

Anything can happen in the next two books i just feel that there's more to Harry and Hermione's realtionship. There's respect and trust and a friendhip deeper than hers and Rons. Ron is attracted to her and she MIGHT be to him but to me H/he looks like there'd be more substance to it.

There really isn't any part in the books where Harry shows more trust to Hemrione than Ron does. Harry was constantly lies to her throughout the 5th book ( some times understandable). He isn't that honest at all to her.

[yxs]

People never wonder how annoying would it actually be for Ron (or any other guy) to be Hermione's boyfriend.
She devotes so much time to Harry... constantly talks about Harry, worries about him, spends time helping him work out his issues.

I don't think any guy would put up with that... having his girlfriend being so close to her male friend, who she admires so much. Especially Ron... especially with Harry, his best friend.

[stic]

FoxyDoxy wrote :Why are people so into this whole 'everyone pairing up and being happy deal? Someone has to be left out. Wake up and smell the hormones!This isn't candy land where everone's happy! So many popular books, and movies are nothing but "wish-fulfilling-junk-food" for the brains. Everyone in the audience gets their specifically designed identificational figure (characters) which are defined through their romantic desires that seem oh-so-impossible at first and at the end of course every wish gets fulfilled, the audience is satisfied and I'm sick. :td:

Please no, Jo, keep up the real show.


Why does Ron always have to die? I mean he isn't a bad charactor is heNo, he's not, of course. He represents so many good qualities we all need badly. But from a reader-standpoint I, as cruel as it sounds, expect and want the fall-out, the tragedy, the making-up, the death.

[AsKPeeVes]

I'm ba-aack. Tell me u missed me :p




:rotfl:


My heart says Harmony but my brains says Heron and Moonlight. Although JKR's quote about everyone being in love with the wrong person in book 4 was largely ignored, I think it provides hope for Harmony. Duh! In book 4 Harry wants Cho and Ron wants Hermione who wants Viktor!!

.
when did she say that ? okay i missed you o captin of hms sureshot..

[FoxyDoxy]

I want your quote in my sig
You're welcome to it luv. See the harmony's are giving away free siggies! Wot u got Herons?

[oliveros]

I'm ba-aack. Tell me u missed me :p



My heart says Harmony but my brains says Heron and Moonlight. Although JKR's quote about everyone being in love with the wrong person in book 4 was largely ignored, I think it provides hope for Harmony. Duh! In book 4 Harry wants Cho and Ron wants Hermione who wants Viktor!!

H/C :td:

H/V almost :td:

R/Hr >> Is that next?

It is absolutely necessary for a development of R/Hr in book 6, if there's going to be a ship at all.

Well, you havent been here long enough to see that it actually has been discussed (and a lot). Herons say that Ron was in love with Fleur, which is a very good explaination (though I dont agree with it), but Hermione being in love with Krum? I dont think so.

well do most h/hr ship out of hope for them like we'll get clues in the next book..or do they have much evidence from the last five?:)
Just read the link I gave you, you'll see its more than wishful thinking

[AsKPeeVes]

Well, you havent been here long enough to see that it actually has been discussed (and a lot). Herons say that Ron was in love with Fleur, which is a very good explaination (though I dont agree with it), but Hermione being in love with Krum? I dont think so.
wow i didnt know that and ive been here No ron just had a crush on Fleur he didnt even know her enough to actually Loove her...:)

[marauderlupin]

when did she say that ? okay i missed you o captin of hms sureshot..


Oh, we're not an "official" ship. That xray person turned us down. Who died and made him the love thread dictator anyway? I will get over it someday, though. They say time heals all wounds.

Anyway, back to your question, this is what JKR said on the COS DVD:

Q - I'd like to ask if there would be a lot of romances between the characters in the upcoming books?

A- "Good question. I'm having so much fun writing Book 4 because for the first time Harry, Ron, and Hermoine are starting to recognize boys and girls as boys and girls. Everyone is in love with the wrong people. Let no one say my books lack realism."

You're welcome to it luv. See the harmony's are giving away free siggies! Wot u got Herons?


thanks. you're sweet.

[AsKPeeVes]

Well, you havent been here long enough to see that it actually has been discussed (and a lot). Herons say that Ron was in love with Fleur, which is a very good explaination (though I dont agree with it), but Hermione being in love with Krum? I dont think so.


Just read the link I gave you, you'll see its more than wishful thinking
woops sorry i just got in again and didnt read some of the last post ill read it..:)

[FoxyDoxy]

thanks. you're sweet.
Aw I'm blushing now! Hey new ship!

[JBaker]

The Good luck kiss

1. Yep I agree with you totally that there is no mixup, but we can't be sure what Hermione is thinking. We both believe that she has an inkling that Cho is his source of attraction but again we don't know for sure. I think the kiss at the end of GOF was nothing more then a goodbye, miss you sorta kiss, nothing romantic was meant by it.

It doesn't draw in attention because everyone is saying goodbye but that doesn't mean that no one saw it. Remember that it is a very public place, so it's bound to be noticed, especially considering that Harry is the main source of attention.

Why doesn't Ron get a kiss? Could it be that she is aware of his jealousy towards Krum (I would agree that she is aware). If she is, then why not give him a kiss, unless she doesn't want to lead him on in the wrong direction. If she isn't aware, then maybe she just isn't as close to Ron personally for him to warrant a kiss. If she is interested, surely she would want him to think that she is interested in him, so why not give him a kiss as well? Too risky, to bold? Ron is as dense as they come when it comes to females so he's not going to get the picture too soon. No it doesn't make sense to want his attention but then not to act in a fashion that would suggest she is open to his attention.

Haven't we been over this already?

[clearacell]

… As they rose from the table, Hermione got up, too, and taking Harry’s arm, she drew him to one side.
“Don’t let Ron see what’s on those Slytherins’ badges,” she whispered urgently.
Harry looked questioningly at her, but she shook her head warningly; Ron had just ambled over to them, looking lost and desperate.
“Good luck, Ron,” said Hermione, standing on tip-toe and kissing him on the cheek. “And you Harry –“
Ron seemed to come to himself slightly as they walked back across the Great Hall. He touched the spot on his face where Hermione had kissed him, looking puzzled, as though he was not quite sure what had just happened. He seemed to distracted to notice much around him, but Harry… (OotP 404).

Okay I stole that from KADH (cause I'm too lazy to type it out myself :p ), but I never made a comment on this. I'm sure many other Harmonians probably already said what I'm about to say but who cares I like reitterating stuff in case other people don't read the other posts (and considering most people no here skip over alot of posts, it's same to assume a lot of our huge essays never get read)

The whole "good luck, ron *kiss* And you Harry -"...I always assumed she kissed both boys. It certainly sounds like something that she'd do. She had already gave Harry a kiss before, so it would not be unusual for her to do it again, because the invisible barrier was already broken. To me, this is why Harry made no comment this time, and the first time it was *something she had never done before*. But she has kissed him before, so he (and we) wouldn't care what Harry thinks, so it is Ron's reaction that we see, since it is his first time being kissed by Hermione.

When I first read that part (and 2nd), I had the same reaction both times, that she had kissed both boys, and it wasn't until I went to the forums that I saw people have a different interpretation on it. I thought it was clear w/ the "-" that she meant some action happened without having to be written, just as the time when Harry got kissed by Cho, we were never actually told at that point that Cho had kissed Harry. It was written in a way that it was certain that her next step in standing so close to Harry would be to kiss him. I believe that the good luck kiss was written in the same fashion.

It could be that I forget how to read when I get to that point, but through all these arguements, and after about the 10th re-read, I still interpret it the same way.

[marauderlupin]

Well, you havent been here long enough to see that it actually has been discussed (and a lot). Herons say that Ron was in love with Fleur, which is a very good explaination (though I dont agree with it), but Hermione being in love with Krum? I dont think so.

Yeah, I only got into it at around vol 28 or 29, so I'm a relative newbie.


Just read the link I gave you, you'll see its more than wishful thinking

I read it before. I read most of the well-known Harmony and Heron essays, but for whatever reason, I see more Heron evidence across all media (books, JKR quotes, movies, actor interviews)

I would like to see Harmony, but right now it just seems like wishful thinking to me. I really don't mind Moonlight, though. I love Luna :)

[McBeth]

This essay is all about the ship of Moonlight, mainly about why it works and how JKR has given it the means to work.

This essay is a bit long, so be warned!


I can't say we have got lots of canon, and the canon we do have seems to be very easily interpreted in many ways, but we do have the very important means to make our ship. These means, which I am going to refer to as "Material" from here on out, are extremely important, because without them, even if there's canons, that isn't going to make the ship truly sail properly or at all. These "Materials" are what should make a ship sail - they are what really makes it believable and realistic. So, for that reason, I am going to list the Materials, along with their quotes, and why I think they are important.


Material #1

This first material might be looked at as flimsey, but I don't think so, and anyhow, it's nevertheless there and important.

OotP, Page(s) 198-199:

Harry felt utterly bewildered. The horse was there in front of him, gleaming solidly in the dim light issuing from the station windows behind them, vapor rising from its nostrils in the chilly night air. Yet unless Ron was faking - and it was a very feeble joke if he was - Ron could not see it at all.

"Shall we get in, then?" said Ron uncertainly, looking at Harry as though worried about him.

"Yeah," said Harry. "Yeah, go on. . . ."

"It's all right," said a dreamy voice from beside Harry as Ron vanished into the coach's dark interior. "You're not going mad or anything. I can see them too."

"Can you?" said Harry desperately, turning to Luna. He could see the bat-winged horses reflected in her wide, silvery eyes.

"Oh yes," said Luna, "I've been able to see them since my first day here. They've always pulled the carriages. Don't worry. You're just as sane as I am."

Smiling faintly, she climbed into the musty interior of the carriage after Ron. Not altogether reassured, Harry followed her.

Luna has been reassuring Harry to some extent since day one of their knowing eachother. Has any other girl in HP ever done that? No, unless my memory mightily deceives me. And yes, I know it said Harry wasn't altogether reassured but it does mean that she reassured him some.


Material #2

The next four quotes are from page(s) 261-262, from OotP.

A few seconds later, Luna Lovegood emerged, trailing behind the rest of the class, a smudge of earth on her nose and her hair tied in a knot on the top of her head. When she saw Harry, her prominent eyes seemed to bulge excitedly and she made a beeline straight for him. Many of his classmates turned curiously to watch. Luna took a great breath then said, without so much as a preliminary hello: "I believe He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named is back, and I believe you fought him and escaped from him."

"Er - right," said Harry awkwardly. Luna was wearing what looked like a pair of orange radishes for earrings, a fact that Parvati and Lavender seemed to have noticed, as they were both giggling and pointing at her earlobes.

If you want to have a relationship or friendship with Harry Potter, you've got to believe him, whether his story seems ludicrous or not. Who is more qualified to believe in something without seeing or having proof than Luna Lovegood?

Luna isn't afraid to say, "Yes, I believe you," even when someone like Umbridge is gaining power, and there are more Ministry Followers than ever about. She was the first person (to my knowledge) to really come out and declare her allegiance to what Harry was saying after he had confronted Umbridge.


"You can laugh!" Luna said, her voice rising, apparently under the impression that Parvati and Lavender were laughing at what she had said rather than what she was wearing. "But people used to believe there were no such things as the Blibbering Humdinger or the Crumple-Horned Snorkack!"
"Well, they were right, weren't they?" said Hermione impatiently. "There weren't any such things as the Blibbering Humdinger or the Crumple-Horned Snorkack."
Luna gave her a withering look at flounced away, radishes swinging madly. Parvati and Lavender were not the only ones hooting with laughter now.

Luna's very steadfast and doesn't falter when it's time to stick up for what's right, it even angers her when she thinks Parvati and Lavender are making fun of Harry. I don't think she does this because she loves Harry or something (and I don't think she loves him - yet ;)), she's doing it because it's what she feels in her heart.

Unfortunately, Hermione goes on to tarnish Luna's image more, as quoted below-


"D'you mind not offending the only people who believe me?" Harry asked Hermione as they made their way into class.

"Oh, for heaven's sake, Harry, you can do better than her," said Hermione. "Ginny's told me all about her, apparently she'll only believe in things as long as there's no proof at all. Well, I wouldn't expect anything else from someone whose father runs The Quibbler."

I remember the first time I read OotP, and, even though it was very late at night and I was reading so fast I had to re-read the book a month later to make sure I absorbed the information properly, I recall feeling annoyed at Hermione for condemning Luna because of what she believes. That just isn't fair.

This is exactly why I see Moonlight much more than I see Harmony. Hermione can't see beyond a pile of textbooks, historical dates, and facts half the time. I'm not bashing Hermione, by any means, I am dearly fond of her and can see her being my very best friend, but can Harry be happy spending most of his time in the Library to be with Hermione if he ever loves her? I just don't think so - he wasn't happy in GoF during his and Ron's fight, he won't be happy now. Harry needs to be as free as he can, to break away from the chains of the Prophecy, if only momentarily! He needs to feel the freedom of believing that there is something beyond it all.

To get back on track, this quote -


Harry thought of the sinister winged horses he had seen on the night he had arrived and how Luna had said she could see them too. His spirits sank slightly. Had she been lying?

- proves that Luna indeed did make Harry feel better by telling him that she too could see the thestrals, judging by the dropping of his spirits. Either that, or Harry didn't like the prospect of Luna lying to him.


Material #3


OotP, Page(s) 762

"Well, it doesn't matter anyway," said Harry through gritted teeth, "because we still don't know how to get there-"

"I thought we'd settled that?" said Luna maddeningly. "We're flying!"

"Look," said Ron, barely containing his anger, "you might be able to fly without a broomstick, but the rest of us can't sprout wings whenever we-"

"There are other ways of flying than with broomsticks," said Luna serenely.

"I s'pose we're going to ride on the back of the Kacky Snorgle or whatever it is?" Ron demanded.

"The Crumple Horned Snorkack can't fly," said Luna in a dignified voice, "but they can, and Hagrid says they're very good at finding places their riders are looking for."

Harry whirled around. Standing between two trees, their white eyes gleaming eerily, were two thestrals, watching the whispered conversation as though they understood ever word.

"Yes!" he whispered, moving torward them. They tossed their reptilian heads, throwing back long black manes, and Harry stretched out his hand eagerly and patted the nearest one's shining neck. How could he ever have thought them ugly?

See, Harry? Not all Loony Lovegood's ideas are bonkers, after all.

I do think this is an important scene to an extent, because Luna did prove, not just to Harry, but to Ron, Hermione, Ginny, and Neville, that her ideas and thoughts aren't useless. What would Harry have done if Luna hadn't thought of using the thestrals? Something drastic and dangerous, I am afraid.

You'll notice that in this chapter, "Fight and Flight," is the last one where Harry looks at Luna negatively at all. This is a very big step. I think Harry finally accepted Luna for who she was, not a loony, and as a useful person when the times get very tough.


Material #4


"So which way d'you reck-"

But before they could make a decision as to which way to try, a door to their right sprang open and three people fell out of it.

"Harry," said Ron, giggling weakly, lurching forward, seizing the front of Harry's robes and gazing at him with unfocused eyes. "There you are. . . . ha ha ha . . . . You look funny, Harry. . . . You're all messed up."

Ron's face was very white and something dark was trickling from the corner of his mouth. Next moment his knees gave way, but he still clutched the front of Harry's robes, so that Harry was pulled into a kind of bow.

"Ginny?" said Harry fearfully. "What happened?"

But Ginny shook her head and slid down the wall into a sitting position, panting and holding her ankle.

"I think it's broken, I heard something crack," whispered Luna, who was bending over her and who alone seemed unhurt. "Four of them chased us into a dark room full of planets, it was a very odd place, some of the time we were just floating around in the dark-"

"Harry, we saw Uranus up close!" said Ron, still giggling feebly. "Get it, Harry? We saw Uranus - ha ha ha - "

A bubble of blood grew at the corner of Ron's mouth and burst.

"Anyway, one of them grabbed Ginny's foot, I used the Reductor Curse and blew Pluto up in his face, but. . . ."

Luna gestured hopelessly at Ginny, who was breathing in a very shallow way, her eyes still closed.

"And what about Ron?" said Harry fearfully, as Ron continued to giggle, still hanging off the front of Harry's robes.

"I don't know what they hit him with," said Luna sadly, "but he's gone a bit funny, I could hardly get him along at all. . . ."

"Harry," said Ron, pulling Harry's ear down to his mouth and still giggling weakly, "you know who this girl is Harry? She's Loony. . . . Loony Lovegood . . . ha ha ha. . . ."

"We've got to get out of here," said Harry firmly. "Luna, can you help Ginny?"

"Yes," said Luna, sticking her wand behind her ear for safekeeping, putting an arm around Ginny's waist and pulling her up.

I find this a very interesting Material. Harry, without another option, has to turn to Luna Lovegood for help and must trust her, and she steps up to the challenge serenely and follows through without causing Harry any more stress by seeming unsure of herself.

Material #5

This is the material - The Big One. I've already written a whole essay on it, luckily not as long as this one, but instead of rewritting it here, I'm just going to put in a link - which is right here: Eclipse (http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=1396038&postcount=977) - so you can go and read it then come back and finish reading this essay. It's the conversation at the end of OotP that really gives us Moonlighters something to talk about. Luna makes Harry feel better, when no one, not even Dumbledore, could, and fills a very deep and extremely important vacancy, and creates a strange bond between the two.

All through OotP, we've had this nice slew of Materials. There are more, but the past five are the major ones that really tie into what I am trying to get across. All of these Materials create something important - a real friend for Harry, if he'll ever accept her friendship. And that friendship is special and deep, which can very well someday turn into a relationship.

Luna's character as who she really is was slowly developing in Harry's mind in OotP. All these Materials aren't just proving Luna's character, it's also proving why Moonlight can and should happen. Not because it would be nice, or cute, but because it works. They balance eachother out very well, which is something I don't think would ever happen between Harry and Hermione or Ginny, because Hermione us far too grounded to ever help Harry feel less bound by the Prophecy, and Ginny is too much like Harry, causing them to clash. I honestly believe the only logical relationship for Harry is with Luna.


Why Does This Ship Work?


To put it quite plainly, it's because Luna's different. Harry desperately needs to be close to someone who isn't anchored down to the earth, who isn't someone who can't see that there is something out there, just waiting for you, and if you're patient and steadfast in your plans, you'll reach it someday.

Poor Harry has been chained to the earth because of the Prophecy, thinking that he will either in the end be a victim or murderer. I am constantly asking myself - can he ever see beyond this mess with Voldemort? Can he see that there is, indeed, something beyond all that? I very firmly believe that Luna was trying, even if subconciously, to help Harry see that at the end of OotP, when no one else could or had the means to - not even Dumbledore.

Harry very much needs someone that can comprehend what he's been through - from having to live with the hostile Dursleys all his life, to never having friends for ten years, to having a killer after you, to having the whole school of Hogwarts whisper about you, spread rumors, and openly hate you from time to time. I believe Luna can comprehend, or begin to comprehend, that. Comprehension is extremely important in a smoothly-sailed relationship - if you can't understand or respect how your partner feels, it will never sail.

You have to admit, Luna is a pretty fun person to have for a friend or girlfriend. She believes in such extraordinary things, stuff that's so much fun to think about and try to solve. It's not the finished product that you're worried about, because it's the journey that's what is fun.

The Harry/Luna relationship reminds me very much of the Jo March/Fritz Bhaer relationship in Little Women, by Louisa May Alcott. Those of you who have read it may understand what I am saying. Jo was hasty, fiery, and brave, and sometimes feared that her temper and hastiness would cause her to do something dreaful someday. Margaret March, Jo's mother, was a great help in learning how to control this flame of Jo's, but as Jo grew into a woman, she met a man from Germany who was good, tranquil, and kind, and ever since helped Jo repair her mistakes and feel better, during her remaining days as a March, and forever on as her days as Mrs. Bhaer. You'll probably have noticed, I see Harry quite a lot in Jo, and Luna in Mr. Bhaer. That kind of relationship is a true and realistic one.

Lastly, Harry and Luna, quite simply, balance eachother out. Luna is serene and calm during difficult situations, and follows out with the necessary mission. Someday, as Harry and Luna draw closer, I believe Luna will be the one who can stop Harry from being hasty and getting himself into a trap. Harry's the fiery sun, Luna is the tranquil Moon - do you see the concept? We need both the Sun and the Moon to live on Earth, because if we didn't have both of them, the effects would be completely catastrophic. The Earth is like the Wizarding World - we need the Sun and Moon together to survive.

Luna is a very special character and I don't believe she was brought into HP to just be Harry's, or anyone's, for that matter, Love Intrest. I think there is so much more to her, and I'm obsessed with Luna for that reason.

Love,
McBeth

[SwordofHope]

There's always room for more. Take LotR for example that managed to fit an apocolyptic war in with an emotional journey up a big 'ol mountain. Besides Harry needs something to fight for and I can't think of anything worth dying for other than love.

There in War! That is a lot of trauma. In LOTR there was no fighting for love interests, the emotion was about trying to win a war and come out alive.

Is Harry going to die trying to get Hermione from Ron?

DO you think there is going to be a love triangle?

[marauderlupin]

Aw I'm blushing now! Hey new ship!

zombie/werewolf?

[JBaker]

My God, we outnumber the Herons for once.

[oliveros]

I read it before. I read most of the well-known Harmony and Heron essays, but for whatever reason, I see more Heron evidence across all media (books, JKR quotes, movies, actor interviews)

I would like to see Harmony, but right now it just seems like wishful thinking to me. I really don't mind Moonlight, though. I love Luna :)

But why would JKR pair Harry with someone we're not really emotionally invested in? I mean, it makes sense to pair Ron with Luna (if R->Hr gets some closure) because being a secondary character, we dont need to get to know his LI very well, the whole relationship can develop off scene. With Harry its different: his LI needs to be well known in order to make it believable. So far the best developed potential LI is Hermione, but Ginny has gotten a fairly good development (mainly off scene, though) as well. Luna is just too new, and she was introduced too late into the series for me to see her in the same level as Harry and Hermione. Add to that the fact that she seems interested in Ron, and that her interactions with Harry seem to point to Luna as a character created to help him through this hard time, and Moonlight doesnt look that good after all, IMO :).


McBeth Good essay! Ill just comment on one small part for now. When you say that Harry needs someone who believes him. I strongly disagree. If anything, Harry needs to have some oposition, he needs someone who can stand up to him and tell him that he might be wrong, not someone who will follow him blindly in his not so safe decisions.

[FoxyDoxy]

I would like to see Harmony, but right now it just seems like wishful thinking to me. I really don't mind Moonlight, though. I love Luna
Well there's always tome- two more books!
As for the media/ movies/ actors- only JK knows for sure and I don't think she'd let it be so 'obvious' if she didn't have something in mind for our hormonaly charged heros (hormones appears to be my word of the day- it's 2.30 am and I have a word of the day? At this time it;s usually just grunting!)

[AsKPeeVes]

Just read the link I gave you, you'll see its more than wishful thinking
Wow its pretty good but alot of it ive seen debated here and some what trashed but it was a very good essay very long..:)

[yxs]

But why would JKR pair Harry with someone we're not really emotionally invested in? I mean, it makes sense to pair Ron with Luna (if R->Hr gets some closure) because being a secondary character, we dont need to get to know his LI very well, the whole relationship can develop off scene. With Harry its different: his LI needs to be well known in order to make it believable. So far the best developed potential LI is Hermione, but Ginny has gotten a fairly good development (mainly off scene, though) as well. Luna is just too new, and she was introduced too late into the series for me to see her in the same level as Harry and Hermione. Add to that the fact that she seems interested in Ron, and that her interactions with Harry seem to point to Luna as a character created to help him through this hard time, and Moonlight doesnt look that good after all, IMO :).


My words, exactly

[JBaker]

The main problem with Ginny, as YXS pointed out I believe, is that we learn almost everything about her through intermediaries, not directly. IMO, this does nothing to promote the possibility of H/G whereas we do learn some things about Luna directly. The only problem is that she seems to like Ron (but then Ginny apparently has moved on from Harry).

[AsKPeeVes]

There in War! That is a lot of trauma. In LOTR there was no fighting for love interests, the emotion was about trying to win a war and come out alive.

Is Harry going to die trying to get Hermione from Ron?

DO you think there is going to be a love triangle?
I dont even think we should bring up lotrs its very complex and i agree with you about the "was no fighting for love interests, the emotion was about trying to win a war and come out alive.' :)

[oliveros]

Wow its pretty good but alot of it ive seen debated here and some what trashed but it was a very good essay very long..:)

lol, and believe me, every single piece of evidence that the herons have thrown to us has been rebutted and trashed as well ;). It all depends on interpretation, and only time will tell whos right.

[FoxyDoxy]

There in War! That is a lot of trauma. In LOTR there was no fighting for love interests, the emotion was about trying to win a war and come out alive. I was using LotR as an example that author do sometimes balance Large epic wars with personal struggles. Jk is more than capeable of balancing Harrys love life and his resposibilities. Besides I don't think that this war will be all huge battles. Harry will have to deal with LV on a personal level not on a battlefield.

Is Harry going to die trying to get Hermione from Ron?
I never said he would- only Jo knows for sure

DO you think there is going to be a love triangle?
yes

[SwordofHope]

Fantasitic Essay McBeth!

[AsKPeeVes]

lol, and believe me, every single piece of evidence that the herons have thrown to us has been rebutted and trashed as well ;). It all depends on interpretation, and only time will tell whos right.
Yeah i think alot of us while were reading the books read it from a shippers stand point and only see evidence that points to are ship i love the idea of h/hr but right now i dont see it happening but we shall see..

[oliveros]

Comprehension is extremely important in a smoothly-sailed relationship - if you can't understand or respect how your partner feels, it will never sail.

Hmm... you ship Heron right? This looks like a double standard to me ;)

You have to admit, Luna is a pretty fun person to have for a friend or girlfriend. She believes in such extraordinary things, stuff that's so much fun to think about and try to solve. It's not the finished product that you're worried about, because it's the journey that's what is fun.

Then she would work better with Ron, the comedian of the trio :evil:

[LordIluvatar]

Then she would work better with Ron, the comedian of the trio :evil:
Hey thats what i said a while ago, i definitly agree with you. Put the two comic relief characters together :p

[McBeth]

Hmm... you ship Heron right? This looks like a double standard to me ;)

Ha, you thought you had me there, didn't you? :lol: Nope, not a double standard, considering I think Hermione and Ron are on more of a similar comprehension level than that of Harry.


Then she would work better with Ron, the comedian of the trio :evil:

Don't you think Harry needs someone to bring some sunshine into his life? Besides, I can't really see Ron looking to deeply into stuff that there isn't at least a bit of basis for.

[SwordofHope]

.

yes

I believe Rowling said that there would be a "little romance". A love triangle is the farthest thing possible from a "little romance". Not to mention that a love triangle would destroy feelings of trust between the trio. Rowling has 2 books to bring out all of her secrets, clues, and start and end a whole war. She soesn't have enough paper to also create a love triangle and end a love triangle without it being messy and resolved well ( I don't think a love triangle could even be resolved if she had 5 books to it)

[McBeth]

Fantasitic Essay McBeth!

Thank you very, very much! It took me two days to write it all, and at least an hour to copy it all down. It was a nightmare - but it's finally been posted!

[oliveros]

This is exactly why I see Moonlight much more than I see Harmony. Hermione can't see beyond a pile of textbooks, historical dates, and facts half the time. I'm not bashing Hermione, by any means, I am dearly fond of her and can see her being my very best friend, but can Harry be happy spending most of his time in the Library to be with Hermione if he ever loves her? I just don't think so - he wasn't happy in GoF during his and Ron's fight, he won't be happy now.



Hmm... am i sensing another double standard here? Ron doesnt seem so fond of studying either, yet thats no problem for Heron, why should it be to Harmony?

[AsKPeeVes]

Really great essay McBeth! :tu:

[yxs]

For the life of me... I can't see Luna and Harry walking off hand in hand after the war and school, getting married (like Harry's parents) and having loads of children... lol.

Ginny... maybe... but not Luna.
Harry needs someone with her feet on the ground. And Jo said Hermione would lighten up too, as she grows up.

[McBeth]

McBeth Good essay! Ill just comment on one small part for now. When you say that Harry needs someone who believes him. I strongly disagree. If anything, Harry needs to have some oposition, he needs someone who can stand up to him and tell him that he might be wrong, not someone who will follow him blindly in his not so safe decisions.

Thanks!

Believing him as in when he has trouble with people believing him like the mess with the Ministry in OotP. I do think someone needs to stand up to Harry and make him stop before he does something rash - but that isn't what I meant by believing him.

Really great essay McBeth! :tu:

Thanks, PeeVes!!

[Moonstruck]

Ha, you thought you had me there, didn't you? :lol: Nope, not a double standard, considering I think Hermione and Ron are on more of a similar comprehension level than that of Harry.

Hermione and Ron have comprehension??? I must be missing something from my books. Why do they argue if they have comprehension of each other?

[oliveros]

Ha, you thought you had me there, didn't you? :lol: Nope, not a double standard, considering I think Hermione and Ron are on more of a similar comprehension level than that of Harry.


I still think that I do ;). You mentioned respect and/or understanding. Ill just say one thing and you'll see that Ron doesnt understand Hermione and doesnt even try to respect her: look at how he treats S.P.E.W., no understanding, no respect.


Don't you think Harry needs someone to bring some sunshine into his life? Besides, I can't really see Ron looking to deeply into stuff that there isn't at least a bit of basis for.

I dont know, Ron seems to be the one with the wild ideas in the trio, not Harry.

[FoxyDoxy]

I believe Rowling said that there would be a "little romance".
Yes but she does have a habit of playing with her words. I've heard that interview and her tone sugested there was a little more than a little romance in store for the trio

Rowling has 2 books to bring out all of her secrets, clues, and start and end a whole war. She soesn't have enough paper to also create a love triangle and end a love triangle without it being messy and resolved well ( I don't think a love triangle could even be resolved if she had 5 books to it)
She's had these books planned for over a decade- if she wants a triangle I'm sure she'll make on and get all of the other things in aswell.

[McBeth]

Hmm... am i sensing another double standard here? Ron doesnt seem so fond of studying either, yet thats no problem for Heron, why should it be to Harmony?

Ron is in a completely different situation than Harry, and doesn't need to be free the way Harry does.

[Night Shade]

Beautiful essay McBeth! That definatly was a full moon!

[SwordofHope]

Hermione and Ron have comprehension??? I must be missing something from my books. Why do they argue if they have comprehension of each other?

They must have some comprehension of each other or else they wouldn't be friends.

[marauderlupin]

Excellent job by McBeth as I expected :)



This just jumped out at me:


"Anyway, one of them grabbed Ginny's foot, I used the Reductor Curse and blew Pluto up in his face, but. . . ."

Luna gestured hopelessly at Ginny, who was breathing in a very shallow way, her eyes still closed.

"And what about Ron?" said Harry fearfully, as Ron continued to giggle, still hanging off the front of Harry's robes

I love how Harry doesn't give a you-know-what about Ginny. He doesn't even say "Are you okay?" Three words. Only four syllables. It brings a special warm glow to my heart :)



"It's all right," said a dreamy voice from beside Harry as Ron vanished into the coach's dark interior. "You're not going mad or anything. I can see them too."

It so cool that they share this thing just between the two of them. Like I said before, Moonlight is a fine ship and I love Luna :)

[oliveros]

Thanks!

Believing him as in when he has trouble with people believing him like the mess with the Ministry in OotP. I do think someone needs to stand up to Harry and make him stop before he does something rash - but that isn't what I meant by believing him.




For a moment there I thought you were talking about Hermione, you know, that girl whos always been there for him, whos always believed him even when his best friend didnt? :evil: Oh, and shes already stood up to Harry at least 3 times, more than I can say about Luna or Ginny ;)

[McBeth]

I still think that I do ;). You mentioned respect and/or understanding. Ill just say one thing and you'll see that Ron doesnt understand Hermione and doesnt even try to respect her: look at how he treats S.P.E.W., no understanding, no respect.

Yes, but they are still on a more similar wavelength than that of Harry. :D



I dont know, Ron seems to be the one with the wild ideas in the trio, not Harry.

Ron's ideas are wild - without any basis or theory, while Luna's do have that. Something someone pointed out yesterday, do you think Ron/Luna would be funny if they actually got together?

[JBaker]

When does Ron and Hermione share knowing looks like we see Harry and Hermione share? Malfoy's dogging comment comes to mind in which we see Hermione and Harry display similar thoughts while Ron is oblivious.

Sorry YXS I thought it was you who talked about the style used in getting to know the secondary characters.

[Moonstruck]

They must have some comprehension of each other or else they wouldn't be friends.

Where do they show they have comprehension of each other? Can you tell me?

[oliveros]

Ron is in a completely different situation than Harry, and doesn't need to be free the way Harry does.


I still dont get that point. When has Hermione "restricted" Harrys freedom? Hes always done pretty much what hes wanted, she only tries to convince him into studying, which is the right thing to do.

[McBeth]

For a moment there I thought you were talking about Hermione, you know, that girl whos always been there for him, whos always believed him even when his best friend didnt? :evil: Oh, and shes already stood up to Harry at least 3 times, more than I can say about Luna or Ginny ;)

Yeah, I've heard that from Harmonians a lot. But Hermione's had more chance to stand up for Harry, considering he's known her and been best friends with her for nearly five years. I listed Luna standing up for Harry as a "Material" because it is important for Moonlight - if Moonlight sails, Luna will have to be able to stand up for Harry.

[Field]

Yes, Harry says something uncertainly. That was before Luna said, "Oh, come on, you heard them, just behind the veil, didn't you?" and etc. He was bound to have whatever he said come out in an uncertain way, because Luna hadn't explained what she was trying to say properly yet. Did Harry change his stance of uncertainty after Luna explained herself fully? Nope.



Harry seemed much more like himself, if at all possible to be like the old Harry, after the conversation. Can you show me in the book please.



I don't understand this one particularly. What is this spiritual and physical connection? I'm not necessarily asking for quotes, I just want the jist of what you're saying. They share a spiritual connection, an emotional connection, reading each others thoughts, knowing what each other is feeling.

They share a physical connection, they both reach out for each other in times of danger, resolve arguements, etc...



Ron helps Harry a lot too, but he's not as shrewdly intelligent as Hermione is, so he's not the one to solve the riddles and such. Which really doesn't affect my point in any way but reinforces it.


I don't think Hermione understood Harry's anger, etc. in OotP. And I don't think she understands Harry emotions, although she does feel them. Can you show me where she fails to comprehend what Harry is feeling at the moment? In OoTP it seemed to me that Hermione knew exactly what Harry was feeling.

An example, Hermione knew when Harry wanted to go to "save Sirius" he was frustrated, and knew he would make an irrational decision. Everyone else was basically agreeing with Harry, and in the end it cost him his godfather.


But she feels Ron's too, to an extent. Recall in GoF, Hermione knew exactly what was wrong with Ron when he and Harry had their fight, and I'm willing to bet that he didn't tell Hermione what he was feeling. Ron isn't that open with his feelings. Harry understands Ron to an extent as well, but not as well as Hermione. I'd agree that Hermione does know Ron better than Harry, but Ron is definitely someone who wears his heart on his sleeve. Always complaining about what he doesn't have, it was obvious he was jealous.

Really though, why are you bringing Ron into the picture? This was about how much more compatible Harry and Hermione are over Harry and Luna.



I agree with that, but I don't see how that's a romantic point. You know, when we're talking about ships we're talking about emotional connections, actions towards each other, and sometimes symbolism. JKR is never going to give us blatant romance until she actually wants to give us the pairing. Until then we look at things like these to predict the future pairing.


That's true as well, but that's because they're very good friends, like Harry told Krum in GoF. You know it's funny, how one can just classify something as "friends" and another can classify it as another.


I can tell you, it's easy to admire, appreciate, and compliment another person vocally when you are not romantically attracted to them. All friends should help eachother with their weaknesses. Mhm, and it's just as easy to classify everything as "just friends".



Very true, but the very same thing can happen with friends. Like with everything, when your shoe comes untied and trips you, you double the knot next time, just like when friends get into fights.

Not trying to rip your points apart, just trying to understand them. Anyhow, I'm sure you've got lots of witty comebacks up your sleeve, and rip what I just said to shreds :p Not going to bother reiterating myself, read my above two replies.


Good. I was up really late last night working on a new Moonlight essay, and I was worried I wouldn't be able to process any new information properly because my mental power was so taken up with that.Good luck with that.

Yours Truly,
-Field

[yxs]

Sorry YXS I thought it was you who talked about the style used in getting to know the secondary characters.

I didn't talk about it, but I think that

[SwordofHope]

Yes but she does have a habit of playing with her words. I've heard that interview and her tone sugested there was a little more than a little romance in store for the trio


"little romance" is two words. There isn't much to play with. She was also talking about Harry and not the trio.

The making of a love triangle would direct everyones attention away from the main plot. People would be more interested in what happens to the love triangle then how the war ends. The fact that there are 35 versions with about 100 different pages on this site alone for the love thread shows this.

[AsKPeeVes]

Where do they show they have comprehension of each other? Can you tell me?
I guess he was saying there has to be a reason why there friends i mean they understand each other about some things its just they disagree alot...but i agree with ron about spew poor dobey has to clean the common room alone but he enjoys it o well

[McBeth]

I still dont get that point. When has Hermione "restricted" Harrys freedom? Hes always done pretty much what hes wanted, she only tries to convince him into studying, which is the right thing to do.

It's the right thing to do, but not what Harry needs. If Harry and Hermione got into a relationship and spent more time with eachother, it would meam more time in the Library. Hermione's a bundle of facts - and fact is exactly what Harry doesn't need right now, considering a Prophecy is supposed to have to do with the outcome of his life, and he needs to not be bound down to the earth by what is supported by proof.

[marauderlupin]

Yes, but they are still on a more similar wavelength than that of Harry. :D



Actually H/Hr seem to be on a similar wavelength. I'm sure how they both got the, "I'll be dogging your steps" comment by Draco has been discussed to death, but anyway, that's an example of an unspoken understanding. I think there are others. I just can't remember.

By the way, your essay really was Aces!

[oliveros]

Yes, but they are still on a more similar wavelength than that of Harry. :D


So you see the double standard, right? I dont see anyone in Harrys wavelenght, the closes Ive seen so far is Hermione, who JKR picked to be the one who stood up to him in OotP. I mean, that last fight it was like Ron wasnt even there, it was all Harry and Hermione ;)


Ron's ideas are wild - without any basis or theory, while Luna's do have that. Something someone pointed out yesterday, do you think Ron/Luna would be funny if they actually got together?

Of course it would be funny (kind of ironic too, considering that Ron thinks shes nuts so far). Rons ideas do have basis (like the one about Sirius before leaving to the DoM), Lunas are even more far fethced (like those blibbering things in the DoM).

It's the right thing to do, but not what Harry needs. If Harry and Hermione got into a relationship and spent more time with eachother, it would meam more time in the Library. Hermione's a bundle of facts - and fact is exactly what Harry doesn't need right now, considering a Prophecy is supposed to have to do with the outcome of his life, and he needs to not be bound down to the earth by what is supported by proof.


Ok, but how does that help Heron? Ron hates studying at least as much as Harry.


Good point marauderlupin, there are other instances in OotP where they seem to have a conection that Harry doesnt have with anyone else, but thats just IMO ;)

[AsKPeeVes]

I dont understand how some people think r/l will happen yet its onesidded and yet they don't think r/hr will happen beacause its onesided..:/

[Charmed Cheese]

I love how Harry doesn't give a you-know-what about Ginny. He doesn't even say "Are you okay?" Three words. Only four syllables. It brings a special warm glow to my heart :)


Well if Ginny, was lying unconscious on the ground he'd be more concern, but he knew she had a sprained ankle and Ron was acting very bizarre. At the moment Ron's condition was more pressing to Harry.

At the beginning of OotP, Ginny fell down the stairs and Harry asked if she was okay. :D :p

Eitherway though, I love it that Harry doesn't notice or appreciate her. The more he does the more irony there is and the sweeter it will be when he finally does wake up.

And then, he'll feel bad for ignoring her all those years. :evil:

(*laughs*, I'm kidding about the last line)

[oliveros]

I dont understand how some people think r/l will happen yet its onesidded yet they don't think r/hr will happen beacause its onesided..:/


I dont think that R/Hr wont happen because its one sided, its because I believe that she loves Harry, and that in the next books, those feelings will be returned. R/L is one sided, but I definitely see the potential for it to become a "complete" ship.

[Moonstruck]

The making of a love triangle would direct everyones attention away from the main plot. People would be more interested in what happens to the love triangle then how the war ends. The fact that there are 35 versions with about 100 different pages on this site alone for the love thread shows this.

Umbridge took my attention away from what Voldemort was doing. The TriWizard Tournment took my attention away from who was after Harry. Subplots often take your attention away from the main plot. It's what makes the plot go.

[SwordofHope]

Where do they show they have comprehension of each other? Can you tell me?

Well first of all they are both friends of Harry. Also they understand what each other is like. Ron knows Hermione loves books and SPEW. Hermione knows Ron loves quidditch and eating. They both know the importance of the order. They both know that Harry withdraws from them. They both know that Harry would be great as a DADA teacher. They both are brave in the face of danger. etc...etc...etc...etc...

[AsKPeeVes]

Well first of all they are both friends of Harry. Also they understand what each other is like. Ron knows Hermione loves books and SPEW. Hermione knows Ron loves quidditch and eating. They both know the importance of the order. They both know that Harry withdraws from them. They both know that Harry would be great as a DADA teacher. They both are brave in the face of danger. etc...etc...etc...etc...
In other words they both share consern(sp) for harry and consult each other about it..

[FoxyDoxy]

"little romance" is two words. There isn't much to play with
It's plenty if your J.K. (sarcasm/mixed meanings inuendo- it's amazing what can be said without saying anything)
She was also talking about Harry and not the trio.
Your the one that mentioned the quote mate


The making of a love triangle would direct everyones attention away from the main plot. People would be more interested in what happens to the love triangle then how the war ends. The fact that there are 35 versions with about 100 different pages on this site alone for the love thread shows this.
Not if it's done well. Has Harrys love life taken over the story so far? No.
But his love for sirius did give OotP a wonderful edge- who's to say that tension mounting between them wouldn't have a similar effect?
No matter who harry gets with the relationship will be a major part of the story IMO conflict with ron would only add to the drama- jk can pull it off.

Anyways- time for bed zzzzzz

[KADH]

Onto the first part.

1. The Quidditch issue.
You are right that it seems likely that Hermione picked up on Ron's intentions to join the Gryffindor team, that much seems logical.
Your first example is evidence to suggest her lack of confidence in Ron. Why would she automatically assume that he is no good for, considering that his older brothers are considered to be brilliant? Yes her coolness towards him disappears (mainly because they look awful). To add insult to injury, she comes right out and tells him that it's only his first attempt and that things are bound to improve (note that she already knows him to be a quidditch fan). Surely she would have believed that he would be good, considering his background yet she doesn't.

I'm going to interject here because I think you're mistaken - Ron is th first to admit that the practice has gone terrible. Here's the converstation:

“Completely lousy,” said Ron in a hollow voice, sinking into a chair beside Hermione. She looked up at Ron and her frostiness seemed to melt.
“Well it was just the first one,” she said consolingly, “it’s bound to take time to –“
“Who said it was me who made it lousy?” snapped Ron.
“No one,” said Hermione, looking taken aback, “I thought –“
“You thought I was bound to be rubbish?”
“No of course I didn’t! Look, you said it was lousy so I just –”

Hermione isn't doubting Ron's ability here. Lots of things could have made the practice lousy - its Ron, not Hermione who is jumping to the conclusion that it was Ron who made it lousy. Ron is the one who thinks she thinks he's bound to be rubbish. Ron's putting words into Hermione's mouth that just aren't there. Hermione is surprised, caught off guard, both by Ron's poor performance and his accusations. And Ron doesn't let her get barely a word in. So I don't see Hermoine criticizing or thinking any less of Ron here, I think she is more like flustered and surprised and trying desperately to say something to make him feel better (if he's only shut up long enough to give her a chance).





To make it even worse, she knows that Fed and George are great beaters and that Charlie was good enough of a seeker to play for England. So, if she does like Ron, why is it that she doesn't have much faith in his quidditch abilities?

I'm not getting where you are getting this from the text. I don't see her doubting Ron's abilities. When does she do this (I'm confused).


"Hermione told him the full story... When she had finished, Ron looked even more anguished
'this is all my fault-'
'You didn't make me punch Malfoy' said Harry angrily
'it I wasn't so terrible at quidditch-'
...
Hermione got up and walked to the window, away from the argument, watching the snow swirling down against the pane"

What we see here is Ron being upset over the situation and Harry getting angry with Ron over it because it wasn't his fault. Yet all Hermione does, after telling the story is to leave the fight and look out the window. No consoling Ron, no standing up for him, nothing.
Yes she does show concern for Ron, it was a horrible situation that they found themselves in, and Ron's performance was poor. She knew his spirits would be down, yet she doesn't console him.

Yes, Hermione is unable to comfort Ron here. She's already tried. She's failed. She knows that Ron has this idea in his head that she thinks he's rubbish and a terrible quidditch player, though Hermione has never said so herself. So what can she say? She's caught up in catch-22. She's in a no win situation. Plus, Hermione's concern is for Ron (as indicated by her actions when Ron comes in -- her first words are about him, not his playing).


(Iwish I had the same book as you, this would make it a lot easier and quicker). The interesting thing about this comment is that Hermione has never before been critical of quidditch and has gone to every game. Yet I find it interesting that she has a change of attitude after Harry gets kicked off the team.

I'm going to stop you there. Hermione's change in attitude towards Quidditch pre-dates Harry's expulsion. She is already anti-Quidditch before the boys' first Quidditch practice which is well before the first match. Plus, she shows anitquidditch comments in the Hogs Head during the first DA set up meeting which also predates Harry's expulsion. Ergo, Harry's expulsion from the team isn't the thing that changes Hermione's mind regarding the game.


Actually her no comment I believe is her realisation about the game and their victory.
"'Hermione...' said Harry slowly.
The song was growing louder, but it was issueing, not from a crowd of green-and-silver- clad Slytherins, but from a mass of Red and gold moving slowly towards the castle, bearing a solitary figure upon its many shoulders...
'No?' said Hermione in a hushed voice."

See so it is her realisation of the situation. Interestingly enough, while she is pleased (why wouldn't she be) her happiness fades quickly when they remember Grawp. It seems that her seeming love interest's greatest success and happiness so far isn't even strong enough to counter her unhappiness over Grawp. .

I don't see her first initial reaction - that "no" as happy at all, not in tone or content. Harry is happy absolutely, but not Hermione, not as her first initial reaction.

Actually Harry and Hermione don't want to spoil Ron's moment by springing the whole Grawp thing on him right after the match. They're both unhappy because they will have to burst his bubble eventutally.

As stated here in Chapter 31 (I'll try and provide chapter # and page numbers to make finding things a little bit easier)

Ron's euphoria at helping Gryffindor scrape the Quidditch Cup was such that he could not settle to anything next day. All he wanted to do was talk over match and Harry and Hermione found it very difficult to find an opening in which to mention Grawp - not that either of them tried very hard; neither was keen to be the one to bring ron back to reality in such a brutal fashion (703).



Yes it means that she is showing pitty by putting her arm on his shoulder. And why not, they did miss his big success.

Yes, but when has Hermione ever shown pity towards Ron? To Neville I could understand, but pity isn't an emotion she tends to have regarding Ron. You're also missing my point over why it is so significant that she even bothers to touch him in the first place - Hermione hardly ever touches Ron. Hermione is a creature of habit. When she does something she doesn't normally do - ie try to soothe Ron with physical contact - it could be indicative of her real feelings.

Notice that Hermione never once seems to care about Harry's expulsion - she never expresses sympathy or concern for what must have been a major loss to Harry. She expresses concern for Ron - interest in Ron. Why show interest in one and not the other? If they're all just friends.

Like i said, her attitude, which is at once anti-quidditch and yet pro-Ron, just doesn't make sense to me.

As to her inability to confort him - you'll see my answer to that in part 5 of my post. Just take a look.

BTW - this all your fault you know - you started this - Mr. Hermione is not showing interest in Ron. :) :) :)

[marauderlupin]

Clearly I'm not McBeth, but I hope you don't mind.

Did Harry change his stance of uncertainty after Luna explained herself fully? Nope.

He is uncertain but it's not in a negative sense as it was at the start. He walks away with a sense of wonder thinking Luna believes in such extraordinary things. It almost seems like he might believe her because of the threstals.


Can you show me in the book please.

He doesn't appear to be as depressed. Before he ran into Luna he felt like the other students we're a part of a 'different world'...the way they were enjoying their afternoons and he standing there with the pain of Sirius' loss. Afterwards, when he is on the train, he is more normal and is playing chess with Ron. Luna brought him a sense of calm and hope.


Can you show me where she fails to comprehend what Harry is feeling at the moment? In OoTP it seemed to me that Hermione knew exactly what Harry was feeling.

It's not that Hermione doesn't understand. In fact, I think she pays a lot of attention to Harry's moods. It's just that she wasn't able to diffuse him with the same level of ease that Luna displayed when they talked of Sirius and the veil and I think that was probably his lowest point in the whole book, emotionally speaking. He felt as if he lost his Godfather again. So, Luna's accomplishment is very impressive in that no one else could've done that for him at the point.

[SwordofHope]

Umbridge took my attention away from what Voldemort was doing. The TriWizard Tournment took my attention away from who was after Harry. Subplots often take your attention away from the main plot. It's what makes the plot go.

But a love triangle means no one would even care what happens how the war ends. The Triwizrd Tournament was the main plot of book 4. A love Traingle would destroy the main plot not just take attention away from it. People would skip over parts of the war just to see what happens next in the love triangle.

And yet again the Love triangle is no where near a "little romance". When Rowling said there would be no more of Harry and Cho we didn't go saying that they would get married in the 6th book.

[McBeth]

Actually H/Hr seem to be on a similar wavelength. I'm sure how they both got the, "I'll be dogging your steps" comment by Draco has been discussed to death, but anyway, that's an example of an unspoken understanding. I think there are others. I just can't remember.

Wavelength, as in comprehension. Comprehension of difficult situations.

By the way, your essay really was Aces!

Thank you!!

[JBaker]

It's the right thing to do, but not what Harry needs. If Harry and Hermione got into a relationship and spent more time with eachother, it would meam more time in the Library. Hermione's a bundle of facts - and fact is exactly what Harry doesn't need right now, considering a Prophecy is supposed to have to do with the outcome of his life, and he needs to not be bound down to the earth by what is supported by proof.

Actually what he needs is a balance between having fun and training. Ron can bring him fun (as does quidditch and the DA) but he also needs knowledge for training. He needs those facts that Hermione brings and he needs the training that the Order can give. He can't ignore the prophecy, he needs to accept it and deal with it, especially if he wants to survive the encounter.

I dont understand how some people think r/l will happen yet its onesidded and yet they don't think r/hr will happen beacause its onesided..:/

At this stage that is exactly what it all is, one sided. It can go either way.

[marauderlupin]

I'm evil so I'm really hoping for a love triangle :evil: Wouldn't it be cool if the emotional damage could match the real carnage taking place during the war? :evil: Actually, in reality, I think it would be an interesting storyline that's all :angel:


Well if Ginny, was lying unconscious on the ground he'd be more concern, but he knew she had a sprained ankle and Ron was acting very bizarre. At the moment Ron's condition was more pressing to Harry.

The thing is, "Are you okay?" is only three words and it takes around 1.5 seconds to say it. When the pressure is on and Harry is freaking out for his friends, Ginny isn't one of those he cares about :p And my heart is all aglow :)

[Field]

One thing I'd like to express about shipping is that although the majority of people ship R/Hr over H/Hr that is not necessarily a better thing.

If anyone knows how to write, then they know irony must be present, or at least a veil of irony. Everyone is assuming that R/Hr is right there in canon, and that JKR is "telling" us that in the interviews, but what if she's doing it for a reason? For the purpose of irony, in it's glorious state.

What I speculate JKR is tying to do, is to bring certain morals into the story about love and it's many forms. Love is not about stereotypes, generalizations, fights, this improper infatuation of todays media. It's a connection that two people share, a bond which grows, something which can't be thought or generalized, something that can't be defined by law, or put into a category, it's just there.


Yours Truly,
-Field

[McBeth]

So you see the double standard, right? I dont see anyone in Harrys wavelenght, the closes Ive seen so far is Hermione, who JKR picked to be the one who stood up to him in OotP. I mean, that last fight it was like Ron wasnt even there, it was all Harry and Hermione ;)

*I hear no double standard, I see no double standard, I feel no double standard* :rotfl: :rotfl:

Do you think Hermione can comprehend having the whole school hate you? Do you think Hermione can comprehend having absolutely no friends for ten years?

Hermione was the best suited to stand up to Harry, because if he was going to listen to anyone who was present at that moment, it would be her. But how is their arguing make them on a similar wavelength?

Of course it would be funny (kind of ironic too, considering that Ron thinks shes nuts so far). Rons ideas do have basis (like the one about Sirius before leaving to the DoM), Lunas are even more far fethced (like those blibbering things in the DoM).

Nah, it was Aquavirius Maggots, nothing blibbering in the DoM, except Hermione said, "Something blibbering, no doubt," under her breath. Luna's ideas aren't far-fetched until proven un-existant ;).

The reason I very firmly don't ship Red Moon is because it's like pairing the comedy relief together, making them a double act or something. I don't see how Ron could ever fall for Luna - why would he?

[oliveros]

I'm evil so I'm really hoping for a love triangle :evil: Wouldn't it be cool if the emotional damage could match the real carnage taking place during the war? :evil: Actually, in reality, I think it would be an interesting storyline that's all :angel:


Hey, are you considering Hr->H? Or is it the triangle that involves Luna?



The thing is, "Are you okay?" is only three words and it takes around 1.5 seconds to say it. When the pressure is on and Harry is freaking out for his friends, Ginny isn't one of those he cares about :p And my heart is all aglow :)

Id say he cares about her, he cared enough to go to the CoS (ok, hes got a saving people thing, but stil)

[McBeth]

Actually what he needs is a balance between having fun and training. Ron can bring him fun (as does quidditch and the DA) but he also needs knowledge for training. He needs those facts that Hermione brings and he needs the training that the Order can give. He can't ignore the prophecy, he needs to accept it and deal with it, especially if he wants to survive the encounter.

But Harry has already got that from Ron and Hermione - he doesn't need to be in a relationship with Hermione for her to help him - and it's obvious that something is lacking.

[AsKPeeVes]

http://www.hp-lexicon.org/essays/essay-harry-hermione.html i reccommend this essay to anyone it is a harmony essay and im heron but its pretty good and alot of it weve debated here but yeah..:)

[Charmed Cheese]

What I speculate JKR is tying to do, is to bring certain morals into the story about love and it's many forms. Love is not about stereotypes, generalizations, fights, this improper infatuation of todays media. It's a connection that two people share, a bond which grows, something which can't be thought or generalized, something that can't be defined by law, or put into a category, it's just there.


Which is why one cannot place R/Hr into a generalized category of a "cliche bickering couple" and claim there's no real love there.

[oliveros]

*I hear no double standard, I see no double standard, I feel no double standard* :rotfl: :rotfl:

I knew I'd get you somehow ;)

Do you think Hermione can comprehend having the whole school hate you? Do you think Hermione can comprehend having absolutely no friends for ten years?

Yes, I actually do. She doesnt have to actually live through it to help him get through it all (shes done it successfully so far along with Ron), and those two things are part of the past, so I dont know how its a good shipping point.

Hermione was the best suited to stand up to Harry, because if he was going to listen to anyone who was present at that moment, it would be her. But how is their arguing make them on a similar wavelength?

It makes them on similar wavelenght because she didnt back down and got him to compromise, something that I doubt anyone else could have done in that moment.


Nah, it was Aquavirius Maggots, nothing blibbering in the DoM, except Hermione said, "Something blibbering, no doubt," under her breath. Luna's ideas aren't far-fetched until proven un-existant ;).

:rotfl:

The reason I very firmly don't ship Red Moon is because it's like pairing the comedy relief together, making them a double act or something. I don't see how Ron could ever fall for Luna - why would he?

Why would Luna fall for Ron (and she indeed seems to have done so)? The heart works in ways the mind cannot explain ;)

[princessa_2004]

ron and hermione are destined for eachother. heck jkr said it herself "something is happening, but ron doesnt know it yet. typical boy." maybe those arnt the exact words but the gist of it.

[marauderlupin]

Hey, are you considering Hr->H? Or is it the triangle that involves Luna?

I would like to see H/Hr/L or Hr/R/L

I'm not "emotionally" attached yto any ship at this point. My favs are Harmony (unlikely) and Moonlight (very likely) If there is a better hint of Harmony in book 6, I'm gonna join the ship faster than you can say "Aye, Aye, Captain!" Same goes for Moonlight. Shoot. I'm almost a Moonlighter anyway.




Id say he cares about her, he cared enough to go to the CoS (ok, hes got a saving people thing, but stil)

Um, he would've done that for *any* innocent soul. That is so not shippy :no: Plus, she was Ron's sister. Why wouldn't he help his best-friend's little sister? AND, he wanted to solve the puzzle and battle LV so Hogwarts could remain open and he wouldn't have to live with the Dursleys all year 'round.

[McBeth]

Yes, I actually do. She doesnt have to actually live through it to help him get through it all (shes done it successfully so far along with Ron), and those two things are part of the past, so I dont know how its a good shipping point.

You have got to have a level of comprehension to be as close as you are to someone in a relationship. But those two things could easily come up again as easily as they did in the past. Frankly, if she doesn't know what it feels like, I don't think she can help him.

It makes them on similar wavelenght because she didnt back down and got him to compromise, something that I doubt anyone else could have done in that moment.

I still don't see how this puts them on a similar wavelength because she didn't back down and got him to compromise. I'm afraid no one else had either the toughness or the means at that moment to hold Harry back other than Hermione.

Why would Luna fall for Ron (and she indeed seems to have done so)? The heart works in ways the mind cannot explain ;)

But it seems that Luna is other her crush on Ron. The evidence on that slowed to a trickle then stop around the middle of the book.

[Charmed Cheese]

I would like to see H/Hr/L or Hr/R/L


*laughs* As a ship or a love triangle? :huh:

It's good that your not emotionally attached to a ship. Those are the people who will have a clearer mind when analysing the text. You also won't be disappointed (You love Ginny, you know it...). :p

[marauderlupin]

*laughs* As a ship or a love triangle? :huh:

It's good that your not emotionally attached to a ship. Those are the people who will have a clearer mind when analysing the text. You also won't be disappointed (You love Ginny, you know it...). :p

Dear God! As a love triangle. Not as a ship. Are you trying to get me banned or something? :lol:

That's why I don't ship Harmony even though I like it. There just isn't enough evidence. I'll love Ginny if she swears that she's completely over Harry and will leave him the heck alone from here on in :p

[oliveros]

You have got to have a level of comprehension to be as close as you are to someone in a relationship. But those two things could easily come up again as easily as they did in the past. Frankly, if she doesn't know what it feels like, I don't think she can help him.

Like I said, she has and she will help him. But I dont see how those two things can ever come up again, the end of OotP kind of showed that Harrys going to be "the hero" at Hogwarts again in the next book.

I still don't see how this puts them on a similar wavelength because she didn't back down and got him to compromise. I'm afraid no one else had either the toughness or the means at that moment to hold Harry back other than Hermione.

You said it: she had the toughness and the means, that puts them on a more similar level. Also, the times where they seemed to be able to communicate without words or the times they knew things Ron didnt made it look like they share a special conection.

But it seems that Luna is other her crush on Ron. The evidence on that slowed to a trickle then stop around the middle of the book.

No, it was more like Lunas appearances stopped to a trickle. And the DoM wasnt going to be a shippy place, right? (at least there is no R->Hr going on, and thats a big deal). There werent enough situations to bring up her crush. The times she could write it, she did (you read my essay on that, right?). And what would be the purpose of writing the crush in the first part and going nowhere with it? It has to come up again sometime, its still there, or JKR wouldnt have written it in the first place.


ETA: I g2g now, Ill get to your reply tomorrow, goodnight :)

[Scarlett Woman]

ERRG! I read a Fanfic actually, about Harry and Hermione together, (I am a Ron hermione shipper, so dont ask why I did it, because I dont know) now, when I read the books, I expect Hermione to jump out from behind a bush and make out with Harry! I dont know why, but I have a problem with the Ron/hermy ship. Jk needs to hurry because the fan fic I am reading is slowly making me forget about the real books. I think all this shipping talk in nonsence, because we are not JK and only JK knows 100%

[JBaker]

I'm going to interject here because I think you're mistaken - Ron is th first to admit that the practice has gone terrible. Here's the converstation:

“Completely lousy,” said Ron in a hollow voice, sinking into a chair beside Hermione. She looked up at Ron and her frostiness seemed to melt.
“Well it was just the first one,” she said consolingly, “it’s bound to take time to –“
“Who said it was me who made it lousy?” snapped Ron.
“No one,” said Hermione, looking taken aback, “I thought –“
“You thought I was bound to be rubbish?”
“No of course I didn’t! Look, you said it was lousy so I just –”

Hermione isn't doubting Ron's ability here. Lots of things could have made the practice lousy - its Ron, not Hermione who is jumping to the conclusion that it was Ron who made it lousy. Ron is the one who thinks she thinks he's bound to be rubbish. Ron's putting words into Hermione's mouth that just aren't there. Hermione is surprised, caught off guard, both by Ron's poor performance and his accusations. And Ron doesn't let her get barely a word in. So I don't see Hermoine criticizing or thinking any less of Ron here, I think she is more like flustered and surprised and trying desperately to say something to make him feel better (if he's only shut up long enough to give her a chance).





I'm not getting where you are getting this from the text. I don't see her doubting Ron's abilities. When does she do this (I'm confused).



Yes, Hermione is unable to comfort Ron here. She's already tried. She's failed. She knows that Ron has this idea in his head that she thinks he's rubbish and a terrible quidditch player, though Hermione has never said so herself. So what can she say? She's caught up in catch-22. She's in a no win situation. Plus, Hermione's concern is for Ron (as indicated by her actions when Ron comes in -- her first words are about him, not his playing).



I'm going to stop you there. Hermione's change in attitude towards Quidditch pre-dates Harry's expulsion. She is already anti-Quidditch before the boys' first Quidditch practice which is well before the first match. Plus, she shows anitquidditch comments in the Hogs Head during the first DA set up meeting which also predates Harry's expulsion. Ergo, Harry's expulsion from the team isn't the thing that changes Hermione's mind regarding the game.

.

I don't see her first initial reaction - that "no" as happy at all, not in tone or content. Harry is happy absolutely, but not Hermione, not as her first initial reaction.

Actually Harry and Hermione don't want to spoil Ron's moment by springing the whole Grawp thing on him right after the match. They're both unhappy because they will have to burst his bubble eventutally.

As stated here in Chapter 31 (I'll try and provide chapter # and page numbers to make finding things a little bit easier)

Ron's euphoria at helping Gryffindor scrape the Quidditch Cup was such that he could not settle to anything next day. All he wanted to do was talk over match and Harry and Hermione found it very difficult to find an opening in which to mention Grawp - not that either of them tried very hard; neither was keen to be the one to bring ron back to reality in such a brutal fashion (703).



Yes, but when has Hermione ever shown pity towards Ron? To Neville I could understand, but pity isn't an emotion she tends to have regarding Ron. You're also missing my point over why it is so significant that she even bothers to touch him in the first place - Hermione hardly ever touches Ron. Hermione is a creature of habit. When she does something she doesn't normally do - ie try to soothe Ron with physical contact - it could be indicative of her real feelings.

Notice that Hermione never once seems to care about Harry's expulsion - she never expresses sympathy or concern for what must have been a major loss to Harry. She expresses concern for Ron - interest in Ron. Why show interest in one and not the other? If they're all just friends.

Like i said, her attitude, which is at once anti-quidditch and yet pro-Ron, just doesn't make sense to me.

As to her inability to confort him - you'll see my answer to that in part 5 of my post. Just take a look.

BTW - this all your fault you know - you started this - Mr. Hermione is not showing interest in Ron. :) :) :)

No, actually I'm not mistaken because I said that she didn't seem to have any faith in his abilities. When Ron said that it was completely lousy, she automatically assumes that he is talking about how bad he made it. See she automatically assumes that he made it bad when after he makes the comment about who said it was me that made it bad, she says no one, I just thought... She just thought that he was bad. She automatically jumped to the conclusion that he was the one to make it bad. This is backed up when she asks Harry if he really was that bad.

it's not in the text (I think Charlie was mentioned, but I can't remember where so we can leave this one, it's not important) but she has gone to every game so far, so nturally she would know this (unless she just watched Harry alone, which is possible but then that raises whole other issues).

No, she never actually tried to comfort him. She asked him where he was and told him to come in and sit down. She then proceeded to tell him what happened with Umbridge and then walked over to the window. It doesn't say anywhere where she actually says anything positive to support him, especially when Harry gets angry with him. She never tried in the first place.

Hang on, where does she go anti-quidditch before his expulsion (I may have missed it but I don't remember reading it). The first we hear about it is when she says about it not being pro inter-house unity. If I'm not much mistaken this takes place after his expulsion.

No, Harry came to the realisation first and brought Hermione's attention to the song and its origins. Hermione says no in a hushed voice. Her tone is neutral, neither good nor bad (I think it's almost in a disbelieving voice, not being able to believe that they won, but I can't back that up with evidence, just my opinion). She is coming to the realisation that it wasn't the Slytherins that were singing it but Gryffindors and the words had changed. The point is though that Hermione's attention was brought to it by Harry, who realised it first.

True, I too believe this, but the fact is that her supposed LI has had one of his biggest successes in his life yet she is only temporarily happy until she remembers the situation.

Thanks (chapter name is probably the best here thanks because page numbers are different). I'll do the same.

True pity isn't an emotion that she shows Ron. However, she does know that this was a big event for him and they missed out on it. He was going to be ticked off so as a motion to try to calm him down she placed a hand on him. it's possible that she is showing affection here or even her true feelings, but then she's never done it before for him when he was down. So it makes sense that she was trying to do this to calm him down (which goes against my pity argument but hey it happens). She's done this sort of thing before. She said Voldemort's name just so that she could calm Harry down after he started ranting.

That is an interesting point. She doesn't show any sympathy for Harry but then she starts saying nasty things about the game, regardless of what they may think about it. She doesn't show sympathy for Ron though and that is the key here. She shows no care about the game after Harry is gone from it. She makes one or two remarks about Ron's keeping abilities but that's about it.

ok, I'll read part 5. It's in this new thread right?

Hey, I'm just saying that Harry draws more attention from Hermione then Ron does. She does care about Ron, but not to the degree that she does with Harry and I think that their fighting only drives Hermione closer to Harry and away from Ron (you can only give so many insults before you go too far). Besides, I just think Ron would be better off with Luna (she doesn't insult him, just supports him).

[Moonstruck]

But a love triangle means no one would even care what happens how the war ends. The Triwizrd Tournament was the main plot of book 4. A love Traingle would destroy the main plot not just take attention away from it. People would skip over parts of the war just to see what happens next in the love triangle.

And yet again the Love triangle is no where near a "little romance". When Rowling said there would be no more of Harry and Cho we didn't go saying that they would get married in the 6th book.

If there were true Harry Potter fans, then I doubt it would. And JK is a good enough writer to write a triangle and keep the war in the spotlight.

[marauderlupin]

ERRG! I read a Fanfic actually, about Harry and Hermione together, (I am a Ron hermione shipper, so dont ask why I did it, because I dont know) now, when I read the books, I expect Hermione to jump out from behind a bush and make out with Harry! I dont know why, but I have a problem with the Ron/hermy ship. Jk needs to hurry because the fan fic I am reading is slowly making me forget about the real books. I think all this shipping talk in nonsence, because we are not JK and only JK knows 100%

Fanfics have a way of messing with people's minds. For a long time, I actually believed with all my heart that Hermione and Draco were star-crossed lovers! Oh! How their beautiful, forbidden love was going to shake the wizarding world to its foundations! It was going to be the shinning example of what love can overcome. It was going to inspire Harry to defeat Voldemort because a love like Hermoine and Draco's was ever so special and had to be protected at all costs!




And then I came to my senses.


Give us a link to this great fic, why dontchya?

[green_ginevra]

No, it was more like Lunas appearances stopped to a trickle. And the DoM wasnt going to be a shippy place, right? (at least there is no R->Hr going on, and thats a big deal). There werent enough situations to bring up her crush. The times she could write it, she did (you read my essay on that, right?). And what would be the purpose of writing the crush in the first part and going nowhere with it? It has to come up again sometime, its still there, or JKR wouldnt have written it in the first place.
I agree that Luna's 'crush' (though I fail to see it, it's probably there...I've read your essay several times, and at least I understand the R/L ship now) will probably be mentioned again...after all, we didn't know whether Ginny's crush would ever come up again, and it did...but only to be resolved. Personally, I'd love to see it either confirmed that she does/did in fact have a crush on him, or resolved. *starts praying that JKR will include something in the next book, which NEEDS to come out...*

As for the DoM...I'm not sure where JKR was going with the way she split the groups. Is there anything significant about it, or...not? There have been some good theories brought up here, but all we can do is speculate...geez, I think I hate that phrase.

Also, I've been meaning to say something about your sig--I love it :rotfl:

[JBrown]

Harry and Hermione are like a double-sided coin I mean they complament each other so well intellectually but they have many problems conecting emotionally. and Ron isn't the only insensetive one. Take the scene in OoTP right after the thestrial lesson when Hermione says she wishes she could see them. She has to do a classic Ron doubletake and imediately apologize for it as Harry snaps her back to the reality of the comment.

[Krumpet]

Just thought I'd pop my head in and say...

KADH I love the way you write. Great essays' I'm surpised more people haven't commemnted on them.

JBaker also great Harmony essay. :)

Okay now that I've got my nightly dose of Love Thread I'm off to Homework land.

'Night all and happy debating.

[JBrown]

I'm checking out early tonight, Happy shipping all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[SwordofHope]

If there were true Harry Potter fans, then I doubt it would. And JK is a good enough writer to write a triangle and keep the war in the spotlight.

That still doesn't explain the quote.
If she did make a love triangle she has turned it into a romance novel. Rowling no matter how good a writer can not keep most of those who are die hard ship fans from paying attention to the main plot. I still would, but most wouldn't. Rowling really has no reason to turn her books into romance novels. The love triangle would not help her series, but it would hurt it. Putting it in the books wouldn't make sense.

I honestly believe that there is a much better chance of all the friends remaining friends than a love triangle. I don't think it would be too bad if the trio remained friends. I really would be dissapointed if a love triangle happened.



Also, I've been meaning to say something about your sig--I love it :rotfl:

I love Oliveros' sig as well. :tu: