Seeing the good in Professor Snape

[stellaluna]

I think snape isn't all bad. see, if it wasn't for him, the stories wouldn't be so very funny, would they?

-He had the chance to get rid of harry (quirell+counter course), but he didn't. (i know it was because of this story with james, but he could have ignored it.)

-It's almost pitiable everytime Harry isn't expelled but-in snapes eyes- should be.

-I think it's real cool when he speaks so sarcastically and so on...

any more reasons why you like snape????



:devil:

[Moonlight]

he didn't return to the deatheaters so that must mean he's okay...*goes washes mouth with soap*

[stellaluna]

thx, i forgot that one!

[DivaPower2003]

There are things I like and dislike about Snape. Things I like are:

-he tried to save Harry at the Quidditch match
-he was right on suspecting Quirrel
-he makes the story interesting
-he left the Dark side

Things I hate about him are:
-his attitude towards Gryffindor
-his hating Harry
-his joining the Dark side
-his unfairness

THERE!

[Dedalus]

I like Snape's character a lot, too. He must be basically good - yet he is still a vindictive wanker. And that's what's great about him!

He also reminds me of a lot of chemistry teachers I've had. Perhaps it's being shut away in a dark room with chemical substances that does it ...

There's a lot more to Snape too, that I like. If I were to go in depth. Like that he has a very strict way of following rules, which becomes an almost stubborn, if often irritating, goodness in him. Like he believes that everything should be textbook if he's going to support Dumbledore. Perhaps that's just him trying to prove himself to Dumbledore, even if he doesn't to many others.

So he can be as power-loving over classrooms, sarcastic, spiteful, unforgiving and slimy as he likes - that just makes him all the more fun to read :elaugh:

[Cat]

Originally posted by Dedalus

There's a lot more to Snape too, that I like. If I were to go in depth. Like that he has a very strict way of following rules, which becomes an almost stubborn, if often irritating, goodness in him. Like he believes that everything should be textbook if he's going to support Dumbledore. Perhaps that's just him trying to prove himself to Dumbledore, even if he doesn't to many others.


Right, if his heart is made of stone then it's made of the castle walls. He's such a teacher. It is a position of power to respect more than a murderer. He may have killed people in his Death Eater naughtiness but he changed. And that makes him so much more brave than the other Death Eaters.

I also love him for being vindictive and sarcastic and bitter. He's a wonderful character to read and detest. He's a good creation, that's what he is :D

[DogStar87]

He isn't bad looking at all in the movie. :)

[Moonlight]

i imagined him thinner.....with a bigger nose

anyway...he's pretty good comedy :D especially what the marouders(sp?) map wrote to him......hillarious.....

[DivaPower2003]

Originally posted by Lavender*Quill
i imagined him thinner.....with a bigger nose

anyway...he's pretty good comedy :D especially what the marouders(sp?) map wrote to him......hillarious.....
I didn't have time to imagine because I saw the actors before I read the books. So I always imagined Snape as Alan Rickman and Harry as Daniel Radcliffe and so on.

[Midnightsfire]

A former post of mine:

J.K. Rowling has always insisted that Snape feels NOT hatred toward Harry but resentment.

In the last book, I suspect that Snape will take a long look in a mirror (the Mirror of Erised? Nahh) and realize that he feels a great deal of admiration for Harry, who by then, will have passed all sorts of trials delineated in the other 6 books.

Snape will come to realize that he has wasted over 6yrs of negative emotion over his unfortunate past with Harry's father. His attempt at redemption and reconciliation will probably cost him his life. You will probably then see that Snape is indeed someone you definitely didn't want as an enemy, since he probably will finally end Voldemort's Legacy once and for all. (Yes, that includes Lucius Malfoy's ambitions as well)

[Rowena Ravenclaw]

I don't know, Midnightsfire. Somehow, I don't believe he hates Harry; he just doesn't want Harry ever to take his "special" status for granted. Yes, a lot of that is probably founded on his dislike for James, but at the same time, it makes sense. Thus far, Harry's greatest talent seems to be "sheer dumb luck" (as MacGonagall would say). However much he might deny it, if that luck were to run out, I think few people would be more devastated than Snape.

[Xikum]

Ohhh, MidnightsFire, that is Some hypothesis!!!
I LIKE it!!!
But, I don't really want to see him dead...I'd like him to find love & be happy, after realizing what a jerk he'd been to Harry, & doing something with his power, maybe against Malfoy & co...that would redeem him, so to speak.

I think that he is a fair person, just petty & vindictive.
He did save Harry from Quirrel in SS, and wish him well in the Quidditch match, and volunteer to ref the next one, to be on guard for Harry's sake.
He did speak in defense of Harry re: the scene with Harry & the blood on the wall in CoS.
He did irritate MacGonagall enough that she finallly gave the broom back to Harry in PoA.
I think that we are seeing him start to change his opinion of Harry at the very end of GoF, ater he went as a spy for DD to Re-enlist with the Death-Eaters---OK, that last part is just My hypothesis...but I do think we saw him beginning to re-evaluate H at the very end, there.
I know there are a bunch of others I noticed, but those are what comes to mind first-off.

[go_anna40]

i...can't...*struggles for breath*

soz...well, it really depends if you're looking at it class-wise or the big picture.

he did save Harry a few times.
he turned from the dark side
and he's good enough to uphold DD's trust.

[lanifiel]

Snape is not evil, but he is not good. He is a misguided soul who ends up hurting people he tries to help, if he stayed out of everything life would be alot easier, but waaay boring...

[stellaluna]

thank you all! i love it to open new threads, it's so interesing to read your answers!

[Sinistra]

Snape is a complex character, which makes him more interesting. He was bad, left them, has a boatload of emotional baggage from the past, and is somewhat immature, IMHO. After all, a mature person would not allow the resentment of a parent to carry through to the child, especially to the extent Snape has.

But I wonder if much of his crustiness is a defense mechanism to keep from getting too close to people and cauing harm, pain etc.

Anyhow, he started as a villain type, and has strongly evolved, which makes him more fun. I am dying to know more about his childhood and how he became a death eater and the rest. That makes for a good character, and why I like him. He's like an onion, many layers, sometimes makes you cry, can be irritating if used too much, but tasty in the right amounts. And sometimes causes gastro-intestinal upsets, too. :rotfl:

[Moonlight]

he looks foul but seems fair,
when he should look fair but seem foul.
is that what he is...or is that aragorn???

[soledad26]

Originally posted by DogStar87
He isn't bad looking at all in the movie. :)

yep...alan rickman reminds me of viggo mortensen's aragorn...:drool:

[Black Pheonix]

well i think that Snape is one of the best teachers in Hogwarts....
what i like about him is that he makes the book funny,he is very brave and is ready to face any danger..

[stellaluna]

yes, sinistra, snape's like shrek... ;D

[Hagrid442]

Snape is a character in conflict. On one hand, he is power-hungry. On the other, he has a strong sense of morality. When he was a Death Eater, the former ruled. When he defected from Voldemort's side, the latter took over. Now, he tries to make a compromise by having a rigid view of things, and bossing around students, but rather enjoys being unfair. However, his sense of morality keeps him from letting down Harry when it's crucial.

As for his childhood, I suspect that he was a Percy, with bad parents.

[stellaluna]

i don't think, he was like percy, hagrid. sirius or lupin said in PoA that he was much interested in dark arts. maybe apart from that he was a little percy...

[ben folds]

he was a stupid little malfoy when he was a kid, ok? and for the sake of this thread, what goodness? he's a mean bloke, hands down.

[Wild Rose]

I think he's bitter. I feel a little sorry for him. All the younger students are warned about him by the older ones, aren't they? And when it gets like that, even if you want to change, you cant. People treat you a certain way, and you get stuck in a role.

He's definatly a multi-dimensional character. A mystery.

@-'-,-------------------

[stellaluna]

ben folds, if you don't like this thread, why do you answer it?

[stellaluna]

i think it's very brave of him, that he's going to be a spy for dumbledore (end of GoF). surely, it will be really dangerous for him to go back to voldemort. voldemort says that snape's going to be killed when he looks around in the circle of the death eaters. it'll be hard for snape to explain everything to voldie to regain his trust....
don't you think? :huh:

[Dedalus]

Originally posted by ben folds
and for the sake of this thread, what goodness? he's a mean bloke, hands down.
He can be both mean and good, at the same time, you know. He's incredibly loyal to Dumbledore, for instance. And he rigidly follows the rules, as though trying to make up for his past, as I said before. His small black heart is in the right place ;)

Plus, what's wrong with him being a mean bloke? That just makes him all the more fun to read, all the more strong as a character.

[dog star]

Originally posted by Wild Rose
I think he's bitter. I feel a little sorry for him. All the younger students are warned about him by the older ones, aren't they? And when it gets like that, even if you want to change, you cant. People treat you a certain way, and you get stuck in a role.


Exactly. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy, to use a sociological term. People stereotype him as being a certain way, and, whether he's truly that way or not, he may subconsciously live up to their stereotype because he feels he has nothing left to lose. No matter what he thinks or feels, they will still think of him as the nasty Potions Master, so why not just BE the nasty Potions Master and give them something to *really* be afraid of.

[Firebolt]

Ah Umn! I like Snape because of Alan Rickman? ;D
I like Snape character because he is unique, serious type sort of way that make you want to scratch something. It's the opposite type of Harry's.
The good thing about him is he's trying to help student to be tough. The knowledge doesn't come easily, you have to earn it, not through fame.

[Sabrina]

ok,this might be my Gryffindor talking but........There is none.no good at all!but that`s my Gryffindor talking......

[hedwigs_keeper]

Snape is actually a decent fellow I think. Not that I don't despise him sometimes, because I do. But he's usually just looking out for Harry, even though it may not seem like it. Talk about "tough love!"

[Wild Rose]

I sometimes think that he is so tough on Harry because the others are not. People make exceptions for "the boy who lived" and so he does not.

@-'-,----------------

[Skyfang]

Seeing good in Snape! Okay I know there is some, but it's really hard to see...

I'm going to think about that while reading Goblet of Fire!

[dorcasderr]

Most of Snape's good points have been discussed, but top of the list, in my opinion, is Dumbledore's trust of him, and I think, liking for him. It would be nice to see in future books even one character (besides Dumbledore and perhaps McGonnagal) who does not prejudge him, but treats him in a genuinely friendly manner. And I don't mean the simpering toadying of Draco Malfoy and his cohorts. Surely Snape sees through that.

[dog star]

Originally posted by dorcasderr
It would be nice to see in future books even one character (besides Dumbledore and perhaps McGonnagal) who does not prejudge him, but treats him in a genuinely friendly manner. And I don't mean the simpering toadying of Draco Malfoy and his cohorts. Surely Snape sees through that.

It's hard for the students not to prejudge him when he lends himself so easily to being prejudged. He basically encourages it, and he only affirms their prejudice with the way he treats them. I discussed this in another thread, but it's called a self-fulfilling prophecy, and it ties into the labeling theory (now I'm going to get sociological on you...LOL). The students label him as being a certain way before they ever meet him, because that's how other students talk about him. So, as soon as they set foot in their first potions class, they already have Snape labeled. After years and years of this, eventually Snape is going to start to subconsciously live up to this label, because, no matter what he does or says or thinks, the students are still going to see him as they originally labeled him--evil, mean, and nasty. He lives up to the label because in his mind he knows he has nothing left to lose. So, if they're going to think of him as being awful and fear him anyhow, why not BE awful, and give them a reason to TRULY fear him?

As for Draco and his cohorts...yes, I think he sees through that. You know he knows Lucius is a Death Eater, though, which is probably why he remains so nice to Draco and children of other Death Eaters--he's trying to save his own neck.

[JoFaye]

For me the good to be found in Snape lies in the interest of the books. He's a truly wonderful author's tool. He adds drama, laughs (I love Neville's turn with the boggart), and situational interest. Harry's head was seen in Hogmeade, but Harry wasn't there? Snape isn't falling for that. Will Harry get caught? Will Snape's favoritism cause Gryffindor to lose the House Cup? On and on. And besides, who hasn't had a teacher who wasn't fair, or that they just generally disliked.

[Severely Snapped]

Someone--I think it was Sinistra, but I may be mistaken--made an excellent point in another thread. She pointed out that Snape is very young compared to the rest of the Hogwarts staff, only 35 or so compared to DD (150), McG (70), etc., and that part of the scary-cold image he cultivates could simply be an attempt to assert his authority.

(And there's no doubt in my mind that he DOES cultivate it on purpose. He dresses all in black, he calls his students "dunderheads," and his idea of fun at a Christmas party is blasting necking couples out of rosebushes. Fun guy!)

As for his goodness...I have gone all over the place with this man. Liked him (first Potions class), hated him (subsequent Potions classes), liked him (found out he saved Harry's life), liked him (duel with Lockhart), hated him ("I see no difference"--what a ROTTEN thing to say!), liked him again...well, you get the picture. I think he really started to intrigue me in PoA, and I LOVED it when he flipped out at the end. It was very funny, but also (for the first time) I actually felt a bit sorry for him. "YOU DON"T KNOW POTTER!" You know, all that helpless rage and frustration sort of made him a person to me.

And, of course, the changes in him in GoF were very interesting; they showed a whole different side to him. I can't wait to find out more!

I guess Snape's fascinating to so many people because he is a person with a lot of "bad" traits who always seems to do the "good" thing. It's an unusual combination.

[JoFaye]

Harry and friends will be taking O.W.L.S. in the next book. I can't wait to see what Snape has cooked up to thwart Mr. Potter.

[dog star]

Haha...yes it will certainly be interesting, won't it? ;) But I do think Harry is smarter than Snape gives him credit for...he might be surprised.

[Puffskein]

Your labelling theory is interesting, dog star.

Whatever Snape was in the past, he is not evil now. He knows the difference between right and wrong, morally speaking. Even so, he doesn't get any sympathy from me because he takes out his bitterness on people who don't deserve it. I might change my mind if we find out more about his past.

I'm surprised Inkwolf hasn't posted here yet...

[Xikum]

Severely Snapped said: I guess Snape's fascinating to so many people because he is a person with a lot of "bad" traits who always seems to do the "good" thing. It's an unusual combination.

You know, I haven't really thought of it simply that way, I always considered his behavior to be consciously planned, for effect...except that part in PoA when he flipped out at the end.
But, looking at him from SS's POV, if his behavior weren't planned, but really a reflectionof his character, than it is true! the aspect of having some really bad traits, yet still finding it in himself to do the 'right' thing, may be what adds to the fascination with Snape, at least for me!!

[dog star]

Originally posted by Puffskein
Whatever Snape was in the past, he is not evil now. He knows the difference between right and wrong, morally speaking. Even so, he doesn't get any sympathy from me because he takes out his bitterness on people who don't deserve it. I might change my mind if we find out more about his past.


Somehow, though, I think if we had seen, done, and experienced the things he probably did during his time as a Death Eater, we would all be bitter as well. His bitterness is almost a dangerous preoccupation, I think. But, we are all guilty of taking things out on people who don't deserve it at times...just imagine if you had killed people, innocent people...tortured others within inches of their life...used mind control to make others do evil things...and who knows what else. Imagine having all of that on your conscience. I'd be bitter, too.

[Oddfellow]

Severus Snape reminds me of my seventh grade Earth Science teacher.
Oh how I hated him. He used to make us take notes all period, everyday for weeks. Then he would stare at all of us from the side while he drank his coffee. Black, not too much surgar. He had a big ZZtop poster at the back of his room and went fishing every weekend (he kept a semi-large aluminum boat in the back of his little truck)
But now when I pass him in the grocery store I say "hi" to him and he says "Hi, Mister...." well he remembered my name I just can't tell you that one.

"The face of a child says it all, especially the mouth part of the face."
-Jack Handy

[Bilbo]

Snape does have good qualities. First of all, I am inclined to agree that it is great that he has bad traits but makes the right decisions.

As for his teaching, JKR said it best, "Dumbledore knows that teachers like Snape are a lesson that needs to be learned."

[stellaluna]

Dog Star, you brought me to think:
What has Snape done in his Death-Eaters time? How worse where the crimes he did? Surely, he didn't kill anyone, did he? Nah, he wouldn't be free then, even if he has Dumbledore's full confidence. And I don't expect that Dumbledore would trust him if he ever killed anyone...
But that's a good question, isn't it? Would like to know, what he did there... :huh: Wasn't it said that he was first a spy for Voldemort? No, doubt that one myself...

Have there been any hints?
What do you think did he do?

[Sinistra]

Oh Stellaluna, if Snape hadn't killed anyone I would be extremely surprised. It almost seems a requirement of being a Death Eater to kill at least a few muggles, not to mention witches and wizards. However, because Snape "defected" and turned spy, and risked his life and helped the side of good so much, he earned the wizarding world's version of a pardon. Dumbledore trusts him, and that's good enough for the rest of the wizarding world, at least the judicial branch thereof.

Snape may be bitter and broody because Harry's appearance has caused him to face up to all he has done and been since he was Harry's age. Snape may be reviewing and reconsidering his personal history, which can be quite personally difficult, especially if one's past is not perfect. So every time Harry does something, Snape is reminded of James and Snape's own time at school and how Snape reacted etc. and maybe he is regretting what he did. Or not. But it upsets his little nice world he has created for himself, and he is constantly reminded of his mistakes.

[dog star]

Exactly, Sinistra. Harry's presence isn't allowing Snape to let his past lay forgotten...he's being forced to see one of the direct results of something the Death Eaters did...Harry Potter, the orphaned boy-who-lived. We all make mistakes...and Snape made a big one when he was probably about Harry's age. I think he now realizes that wasn't the way to go (and I am very curious as to what his "personal matter" is that made him change sides), and perhaps even regrets it, which would only turn up the bitterness he wuld feel toward Harry.

I would think that in order to be "initiated" as a Death Eater (aside from having the mark burned onto your arm), you would have to kill at least one person, torture a few more, exercise some mind control...all 3 unforgivables.

I believe that Dumbledore sees the good in Snape, no matter what. Yes, he has made mistakes in his life, but we all make mistakes, and are deserving of a second chance.

[Wild Rose]

I think we are all very curious as to what it is that changed Snape's mind. I think that will be the key to him.

[JoFaye]

I'm probably wrong, Lord knows I use to it, but I don't think Prof. Dumbledore would overlook murder.

[dog star]

But murder under forced circumstances...perhaps he would.

[stellaluna]

Originally posted by JoFaye
I'm probably wrong, Lord knows I use to it, but I don't think Prof. Dumbledore would overlook murder.

Yes JoFaye, that's exactly my point.
I mean they're called the unforgivable curses, and I think we should understand that by the very word. And as Murder (Avada Kedavra) is easily the worst of them, nothing could've saved him from Azkaban, not even Dumbledore's confidence. :huh:

[Ashkins]

There is NO proof that he has murdered anyone.

[stellaluna]

Originally posted by Ashkins
There is NO proof that he has murdered anyone.

Of course there is no proof, that's why we're thinking about it...

[Skyfang]

Okay, so I've read GoF and I think Snape is trying to hide the good inside himself. Odd as it may seem, I think he's sort of punishing himself for what he may or may not have done in the past, while at the same time keeping an act up so that people won't see through him...

Am I off or on?

[Ashkins]

I think he is better than given credit for.

We tend to punish ourselves when we realize we were wrong more than others could.

He does have an appearance to keep up.

[JoFaye]

I say off. I still say Snape wants to be powerful so bad he can taste it, but has certain ethical values he just can't shake.

[Bilbo]

Snape maybe a grumpy professor but GoF has set up his redemption...we are going to see a new Snape by the end of Book 7.

[harryton]

i agree, he isnt very bad, its just that he is a mean teacher like some of the teachers we have. and he defends his house very much.

he is strict but he did try and save harry in the first book.

[dog star]

Originally posted by Bilbo
Snape maybe a grumpy professor but GoF has set up his redemption...we are going to see a new Snape by the end of Book 7.

If he lives that long.

In my mind, I feel there will be a death per book now, at least. I think the three who will die are Hagrid, Dumbledore, and Snape. Hagrid I think is the book 5 death, but DD and Snape's order is arguable...in some ways, it would be expected for DD to live the longest and help save the day in book 7, but, it would also be completely UNEXPECTED of Snape to do something like give his own life so that Voldemort can be defeated once and for all. It would surprise a lot of people, IMHO.

[Xikum]

dog star I Like the way you think!! I have read your last few posts, and, What you said about his probably having had to torture, mind control & kill, as initiation or even before being granted admission to be a DE; I have always thought so, too...It just haden't been brought up.
AND, as a spy, even after he 'turned' good, he probably had to take part in some, too. Otherwise, his cover would have been blown!! I'd bet he managed to avoid the kills---Unless he knew that the torture the person being brought to Voldie was about to experience would be so bad that a quick end was a merecy for the poor person taken captive...

But, having turned good, then still having to torture, well, that would do a serious mind number in terms of guilt! Doesn't make for a sweet personality. Even knowing that what he did may have saved many, many more lives, he's still put into a very bad light now, among other wizards.
And, probably feels Both that he's gotten a bad deal, yet also that he deserves most of it....

Hopefully, the answerrs to these & more questions will be available SOOOON, before I go CrAzY from this mind torture JKR is doing by making us wait SOOOO long for book 5. AGGHHH!! Too late!! Sanity has been lost. Along with several posts....
Sorry. I feel better now. Just flipped out for a moment.

[Ashkins]

It would be something to see.. DD having passed away in book 6 Snape steps up to help Harry the most. The most unlikely person in Harry and Co's eyes.

[dog star]

Originally posted by Xikum
But, having turned good, then still having to torture, well, that would do a serious mind number in terms of guilt! Doesn't make for a sweet personality. Even knowing that what he did may have saved many, many more lives, he's still put into a very bad light now, among other wizards.
And, probably feels Both that he's gotten a bad deal, yet also that he deserves most of it....


Precisely. The sorts of things he is bound to hav experienced in his past certainly have a direct impact on his personality now, I'm sure. It's hard to be sweet, nice, and cheery when you have such atrocities weighing on your conscience. Even harder when you know those atrocities are your own doing.

Originally posted by Ashkins
It would be something to see.. DD having passed away in book 6 Snape steps up to help Harry the most. The most unlikely person in Harry and Co's eyes.

That was my thought. With DD gone, Snape would have to step up; he wouldn't have a choice. Either step up or be stepped on. I think he'll step up. He's too big a man not to.

[Severely Snapped]

I REFUSE to believe Snape ever actually murdered anyone. Not even Dumbledore could condone or forgive that! And I wouldn't want JK to even attempt to redeem a character who would take a life--that's just sick! "Oh, by the way, kids, Professor Snape did whack a few Muggles in his misspent youth, but he's really a good guy now, so forgive him, okay?" Um--don't think so. She could never redeem him in my eyes if he was a murderer. Never.

[dog star]

I just don't see how he COULD have escaped being a murderer...otherwise surely he would have been murdered himself!

[Xikum]

Oooo. I just heard a great idea: Anyone else hear this one?

Severus Snape is really Perseus Evans, Lily's brother!!!!
Whoa!!! The plot lines that could spring from That!!!

[Severely Snapped]

Originally posted by dog star
I just don't see how he COULD have escaped being a murderer...otherwise surely he would have been murdered himself!

I don't know...he's one VERY crafty dude...:cool:

[Wild Rose]

I think he did kill. He was forced to. And then thats why he changed sides again. I think Dumbledore would forgive him for that.

@-'-,--------

[dog star]

Crafty or not, I think it would be hard to escape Voldemort, especially at the height of his power.

I do think that Snape was forced to use the unforgivables, just as all the other Death Eaters were, and I don't see why Dumbledore couldn't/shouldn't trust or forgive him so long as he realizes in his heart that what he did was pure evil, and just plain wrong. And I think Dumbledore sees that in Snape now.

[stellaluna]

Originally posted by Xikum
Oooo. I just heard a great idea: Anyone else hear this one?

Severus Snape is really Perseus Evans, Lily's brother!!!!
Whoa!!! The plot lines that could spring from That!!!

WHAT??? Nah, he would be Petunias brother too, then. Would have been mentioned, or at least, there'd be more hints leading to it...

[Wild Rose]

Originally posted by dog star
Crafty or not, I think it would be hard to escape Voldemort, especially at the height of his power.

I do think that Snape was forced to use the unforgivables,

And I think Dumbledore sees that in Snape now.

In desperate times, people do desperate things.

@-'-,--------------

[Xikum]

Still, could be. We don't know much about her family...
maybe he's her half-brother? Or, more like (at least I'd feel better) a cousin? JKR did say we'd learn a lot more about Lily's family in the next few books! And also something about divorce in magical families being particularly difficult!
But, if you cross out the letters, like with Tom Marvolo Riddle, the I am Lord Voldemort thing, Severus Snape vs. Perseus Evans matches!! Do you think JKR would do that, as Only a Red Herring?

Do you think that Dumbledore recognizes that Snape has had to use unforgivables, and may have to again, from the fact that he looked concerned for Snape when he sent him on ..whatever mission (I think to re-up w/voldie, still acting as spy for DD).

[rotsiepots]

Originally posted by Xikum
Still, could be. We don't know much about her family...
maybe he's her half-brother? Or, more like (at least I'd feel better) a cousin? JKR did say we'd learn a lot more about Lily's family in the next few books! And also something about divorce in magical families being particularly difficult!

I believe JKR has only stated that we will learn more about the Dursleys, not the Evans family. Similarly, I don't recall her saying anything about divorce in magical families. Could you give a reference for this statement?

[Xikum]

Both were, I think, on a biography channel interview show. I've also listened to a few audio radio show transcripts, tho, so, sorry, I can't give you the specific one. On Mugglenet, there is also a list of things she has said, gleaned from assorted interviews. The bit about Lily's family history being revealed between books 5 and 7 was supposedly confirmed. Something big in the next one, something Huge in book 7.

[stellaluna]

Originally posted by Xikum
Do you think that Dumbledore recognizes that Snape has had to use unforgivables, and may have to again, from the fact that he looked concerned for Snape when he sent him on ..whatever mission (I think to re-up w/voldie, still acting as spy for DD).

I think that Dumbledore knows everything that Snape's ever done and knows him very well. DD wouldn't be so sure with his trusting Snape if he didn't knew anything -or at least much- about him.
I don't know, but he seems very sure about Snape. He trusts him without any doubt, I think that will be important in the books to come, when Snape goes back to Voldemort as a spy for Dumbledore.

[Wild Rose]

I dont like the theory that he is someones brother, uncle, or whatever. It just bothers me. It seems a bit too obvious, or a bit of a cop-out.

@-'-,-------------

[Puffskein]

Originally posted by dog star
Somehow, though, I think if we had seen, done, and experienced the things he probably did during his time as a Death Eater, we would all be bitter as well.

I think you're probably right, but I won't feel sorry for him until the books spell it out. So far he just looks like a bit of a whiner. I still think there's no excuse for the way he treats people like Hermione. Not everyone who's had a bad life takes it out on people who don't deserve it (I'm thinking of Lupin of course), but in any case it would be boring if everyone on the good side was nice and sweet.

[dog star]

As JKR said herself...having teachers like Snape is a lesson that needs to be learned. I had a very intimidating teacher in high school that everyone spread awful rumors about. Everybody was afraid of her. I took her classes anyhow -- three of them, to be exact -- and she turned out to be my favorite teacher. Yes, she was tough. Yes, she was Snape-like at times, especially if you didn't do your work. But she also made you learn your stuff, backward and forward, inside and out. I learned a lot from her, and, whether they wish to admit it or not, I think other people did too.

[Sinistra]

Snape may have a personality like a pit viper, but he is good at his craft of potions, and that is very valuable. He made Lupin's wolfsbane potion. I imagine he also supplies Madame Pomfrey and others at the school. Maybe Snape would have had a more peaceful life if he were allowed to be a pure researcher, rather than a schoolteacher.

His attitude could change with the older students. He seems to have little patience with ignorance or stupidity.

I can't wait to learn more about Snape, his childhood, his family, and his death eater days. Learning the reason people are the way they are (especially when they are twisted and complex) is fascinating.

[dog star]

Originally posted by Sinistra

I can't wait to learn more about Snape, his childhood, his family, and his death eater days. Learning the reason people are the way they are (especially when they are twisted and complex) is fascinating.

That's why I'm a sociology major. ;) I love finding out what makes people tick...it's so interesting.

[JoFaye]

Snape doesn't want to do research. He wants to be the DADA teacher, and to catch Harry doing something he can expelled for.

[Remus Lupin]

Oh dear, I love professor snape! He's a study in "When people see injustice in the world and turn sour". I really love his personality becuse he is merely a by-product of his enviornment, as well as some other genetic and personal traits. (I can also relate to his situation regarding those darn marauders ;) ) Well that's my opinion anyway, but it's not much becuse I love almost every one! lol.

[Wild Rose]

Yeah, I think I can relate to the situation of him Vs the marauders. Remember, they were not all sweetness and light, were they?
I think he would be an interesting person to study for my psychology class!

@-'-,----------------

[Sinistra]

JoFaye, everyone says Snape wants to teach DADA. He has never said so himself. That could just be a rumor perpetuated by students, or even Dumbledore, for his own purposes. Remember the shreaking shack. Dumbledore encouraged that rumor.

As to the marauders, yes I agree. Snape has something in common with Hermione, as Snape was bookish and a rules-follower also. But he seemed never to have a close friend, or we haven't heard of it yet. But not everyone who is bookish and/or nerdy turns out twisted and bitter. Of course not every bookish/nerdy person ends up a death eater either. Maybe there will be more about Snape in book 5. It's longer than GoF!!!!!!!!!!! I love long books, especially long Harry Potter books.

[jmk623]

He's great actor in the movies:D

Also Harry gets to learn life isn't all a bed of roses *cough voldmort cough*

Anyway it's fun seeing Ron and Harry get outraged about Snape

[Tigerlily]

Originally posted by Sinistra
Maybe there will be more about Snape in book 5. It's longer than GoF!!!!!!!!!!! I love long books, especially long Harry Potter books.

That's what I'm hoping! I can't wait to find out more about Snape in the next book. And I love long books, too. ;)

[Inkwolf]

Originally posted by Sinistra
But he seemed never to have a close friend, or we haven't heard of it yet.

His friends were the kids who turned out to be Death Eaters. He left all his friends behind when he turned against Voldemort. He may have left his family behind as well. You can understand why he doesn't tend to get all warm and cosy with anyone else....

[EvilMeghan]

Snape is one of the best characters in the book. You love to hate him, and a lotta people can relate to that in their own lives. He also provides this...i don't know the word for it...but he's the one person that can make Harry "powerless" in a sense. No matter what Snape does, Harry can't do anything about it. It makes you want to hit him with something hard repeatedly ;)

A little off topic, but - has anyone thought of hte idea that Snap could be an animagi and turn into a bat? Granted, Hermione would definitely know, since she was reading something on Animagi in HP3 and knew that Wormtail, Padfoot, and Prongs were not registered Animagi.

oooo...a new thought - could he possible be a vampire? Dumbledore does tend ot hire people that no one else would. But where do vampires stand in the wizarding world - wahts their social status? Lupus says he need to talk to Snape about his vampire essay...possible foreshadowing and dropping of hints by JKR?? hmmm...

[Remus Lupin]

noooooo I don't think Snape's a Vamp at all. It's silly and it really doen't work.(sheesh, just because he's a little crankey dosen't mean he's a vampire =>.<=) Ohhh and I'm in total agreement with you wild rose! I'd love to talk about him in Psycology class.

[Wild Rose]

Ok, there is a huge thread re:"is he, isn't he?" a vampire.

And I can see why he doesn't get close to people. So far, everyone has left him. Or maybe its a a case of "I dont play well with others."

@-'-,-------------

[stellaluna]

Originally posted by EvilMeghan
has anyone thought of hte idea that Snap could be an animagi and turn into a bat? Granted, Hermione would definitely know, since she was reading something on Animagi in HP3 and knew that Wormtail, Padfoot, and Prongs were not registered Animagi.

oooo...a new thought - could he possible be a vampire? Dumbledore does tend ot hire people that no one else would. But where do vampires stand in the wizarding world - wahts their social status? Lupus says he need to talk to Snape about his vampire essay...possible foreshadowing and dropping of hints by JKR?? hmmm...

Well, EvilMeghan, I can't deny that there have been a few hints about this in the books. Dunno wich chapter, etc., someone says that "he could never get there bevore you, unless he could turn into a bat or something" talking about Snape, and another answers "Wouldn't put it past him." if I remember right. Or when first describing him, it says that he looked a bit like a vampire in dear Harry's Eyes.

Mhmm, but he wouldn't need to be an animagi, it would fit more if he was a vampire ( I believe they can turn into bats too....).

BUT that says not, that I think he's a vampire, I just said whatI know about this. :huh:

Wildrose, thank you. We won't dicuss this topic further here ok?

[Ellen]

At the end of book 3, I thought Snape was evil. Then, I read book 4 and had to go back and reread book 3 (then reread the others, actually). The scary thing is, if you ignore the insults in what he says and does, be becomes a fairly decent guy. Even always wanting Harry expelled doesn't seem so bad once you notice 1) there's no reason to think Snape knows what Harry's home life is like and 2) comparing the ratio of attempts on Harry's life at Hogwarts to the attempts on his life at Privet Drive, I can see why a responsible adult might want to send Harry back to the latter.

What really go me, though, was Snape's reaction when he realized Dumbledore believed Sirius over him (actually, I think Dumbledore was convinced and realized Snape was too worked up to be looking at it clearly, but it was being disbelieved that got to him).

Whatever Snape's past, he's still trying to prove himself. For him, that moment was about years of faithful service, of trying to atone, risking his neck to face what he thought were two Death Eaters to save some kids he may not even like that much, and feeling that it still isn't enough.

I don't see Dumbledore protecting Snape if he was a murderer and I don't see Rowling trying to make us feel good towards a killer, but it would explain the guilt.

[Inkwolf]

Ellen, good point about Snape's reaction in PoA. (There's also the added justification for getting rid of Lupin that Lupin just skipped his potion and turned into a deadly werewolf on school grounds.)

Re expelling Harry, I don't believe he really wants to. He's always making threats he has no intention of carrying out, and I think expulsion is just what he considers his greatest weapon of intimidation.

[Remus Lupin]

Also, I noticed that Severus seemed to be somewhat getting along with Remus. He could have said somthing about him being a were wolf earlyer but he didn't until he found out that Remus was helping Sirius, in Severus's mind an enemy. I thinka Severus might have wanted to be friends with Remus, possibly ever since they were young, he never had a blatent problem with anyone accept Sirius and James. (Peter never mattered, he was more of a leech anyway.)

[dog star]

That brings in a theory present in many fan fics...that Severus and Remus were actually friends in their school years, though the rest of the Marauders weren't really aware of this. Then their friendship was ended abruptly by Severus after the Shrieking Shack incident, because he thought Remus was in on the joke as well, and, perhaps, as a result, thought Remus' friendship had always been a trick. Now wouldn't that make you bitter...if your only real friend (the young Death Eaters to be don't really count, as I would label those as political friendships and nothing more) turned out, in your mind, not to be your friend at all, but only someone who wanted to get a good laugh at your expense.

[Remus Lupin]

I know! I would feel just terrible! (and i HAVE read a fic like that called "perdition" it was so deperessing i wanted to throw my computerscreen out the window, however it was brilliant. Depressing but brilliant) But if anyone could see the good in severus(other than Dumbledor), it would be Remus. Cuase he's just cool like that. =^_^=

[dog star]

Remus also knows personally that people aren't always what they seem, and that just because people fear you doesn't mean that you are a person to be feared.

[Oddfellow]

Snape probably didn't actuall execute a murder but some of his help may have ended in someone's death. Kind of an accessory to murder. Do you think Dumbledore could overlook that?

"Liars Prosper"
-anonymous

[stellaluna]

Originally posted by Oddfellow
Snape probably didn't actuall execute a murder but some of his help may have ended in someone's death. Kind of an accessory to murder. Do you think Dumbledore could overlook that?

"Liars Prosper"
-anonymous

I think you're right. I guess most of the death eaters (if not all) had something to help to a murder. But I doubt that he helped too much in a murder, Dumbledore is a very loyal and good man, he wouldn't overlook it, if Snape did something really bad.
You kno, maybe he didn't do too much.


:yawn: I'm tired... Good night my dear fellows :smile:

[dog star]

I still don't think there's any possible way for Snape to have been a Death Eater without having killed at least one person. And I'm not just talking accessory to murder...I'm talking murderer. Desperate times make people do desperate things... Dumbledore sees Snape as deserving of a second chance, but I don't interpret that as meaning Snape never committed murder. Dumbledore knows something about the story that we don't know, and I think he also recognizes that, although Snape may have done horrible things, including killling other wizards, witches, or muggles, he isn't an inherently evil person, and, thus Dumbledore trusts him. It never really says in the books that Dumbledore FORGIVES Snape for all he has ever done...only that he trusts him. Dumbledore trusts that Snape is a changed man. That doesn't mean he has to approve of everything Snape has done in the past; only that he knows he won't do it again.

[Oddfellow]

I don't think Dumbledore would overlook murder. This will be something only J.K. can clarify. How long was Snape a death eater? What was his job?
I can see Snape working as something not completely attached to the death and killing part, but what would that be? Was he under a curse (imperius I think)? What made him change his mind about following Voldemort?

Oddfellow

[Midnightsfire]

Originally posted by Remus Lupin
Also, I noticed that Severus seemed to be somewhat getting along with Remus. He could have said somthing about him being a were wolf earlyer but he didn't until he found out that Remus was helping Sirius, in Severus's mind an enemy.

When he was teaching DADA (when Remus was "ill") he went straight for the part in identifying and protecting against a werewolf. He may not have said anything at first but I believe that was in deference to Dumbledore. Of course, he may have done that as a precaution for the sake of the students, which would speak well of him but in this case I don't think so.

[Remus Lupin]

Yeah, but in that respect, the only one who figured it out or who even cared was Hermione. I think he figured it was for thier protection, though he would never admit it, rather than blowing the whistle on Remus seeing as he thought the rest of the student body wouldn't figure it out.

[stellaluna]

Originally posted by Midnightsfire
When he was teaching DADA (when Remus was "ill") he went straight for the part in identifying and protecting against a werewolf. He may not have said anything at first but I believe that was in deference to Dumbledore. Of course, he may have done that as a precaution for the sake of the students, which would speak well of him but in this case I don't think so.

He only did that cause he was bitter. If he really wanted them to know, he would've given them more clear hints. so, it just looked as t´hough he wanted to dis Lupin's lessons by giving the class a very difficult and advanced chapter....

Don't take me serious, I'm absend-minded.

[Wild Rose]

I think the essay was another test of the students. To see who had the brains to work it out for themselves. Maybe he's looking for a protege? (I cant do the little accents on the letters, sorry, do you still know what I meam?)

@-'-,----------

[Puffskein]

Originally posted by stellaluna
If he really wanted them to know, he would've given them more clear hints.

And he wouldn't have taken points off Hermione for knowing the answer! :banghead:

One thing that interests me about Snape as a creation is the change in his apparent moral status. In PS he was set up as a villain, but turned out to be a good guy. I think that in a lesser book, that would be the end of it and he would become nice, yet he's carried on being unpleasant and has now been revealed as an ex-baddie. (And I do think he is an EX-baddie, it would be a twist too far if he was actually evil, and Dumbledore was quite fierce in his defence. Just don't ask me to give him sympathy until he acts like he wants some!)

[stellaluna]

I doubt that Snape will ever become what one calls "nice". I think he will always be somewhat wicked (right word???) and a bit strange. But he will stay good in the basic point of view (not going back to the dark side etc...).

[dog star]

Unless he has a personality transplant, I don't think he'll ever really be a "nice" guy, in the sense that Lupin is a nice guy. He'll probably never get over his bitterness, but I do think his character will be revealed to us more clearly later on and more people will begin to understand him, and view him in less of a negative light. :)

[stellaluna]

Originally posted by dog star
I do think his character will be revealed to us more clearly later on and more people will begin to understand him, and view him in less of a negative light. :)

:p Let us hope...

[Wild Rose]

Have you guys seen this thread? Its very amusing! http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4920

(Its about Snape, and an article someone wrote about him.)

@-'-,--------------

[Remus Lupin]

yesh i saw that thread and actively participated in it wee! horray for P.O.T.I.O.N.S.N.A.P.E.! =^_^= now if only i could start a REmus club *whistles*

[stellaluna]

I was there too... great article.

[Wild Rose]

I am really looking forward to book 5 in the hope of learning more.

I am now deeply disturbed. I was discussing Harry Potter with my godfather. Apparently, he, his wife, and their daughter went to a Harry Potter screening where everyone as dressed up. Fair enough. But they didn't just go as generic witches and wizards. Oh now. They went as Professor Snape, Madam Hooch, and Hermionie. For the love of lemonade! The mental images are just too scary!

@-'-,----------------

[dog star]

If I was a man, I would so dress up as Snape for the bookstore release party...

[Remus Lupin]

Haahaa!! I might regardless that i'm not male, i have the hair. Besides handing out detentions to children with "minus 5 house points for liking that potter boy" written on it will be sooo much fun. actually me and a large group of friends are going to make quaddach robes. I'm going to be the slyhterin keeper, with "Snape" written ont he back of my robes =^_^= (If Snape played quiddach, he would most likely be a Kepper seeing as it requires the most thought to play)

[dog star]

Haha! That would be funny, handing out detentions...only you should add an adjective to make it "for liking that insufferable Potter," just to add that exact Severus flair. ;)

[Bixie]

What do you like about Snape?

Personality wise - don't know still thinking but...

SNAPE IN DRAG - Lupin's DADA lesson - they have got to have that in the film - even if it's just for light relief.

Done thinking.... a complex guy who can't be all bad, he did leave Voldemort before his demise after all. Though I think if it is resentment and not hate he feels towards Harry - that must be some resentment - PoA in the Shrieking Shack his reaction to Sirius, Lupin and the kids trying to tell him the truth. That's got to be hatred and very intense hatred at that, to make him deaf to any sort of explanation of the truth that wouldn't let him get his own back.

[stellaluna]

Originally posted by Remus Lupin
quiddach

Interesting way to spell Quidditch :huh:

[Wild Rose]

Alan Rickman in a vulture hat. Hmmmmm. This could be......interesting!

@-'-,---------------

[stellaluna]

Oh yes! But if we're unlucky, they will dropp the scene; they always cut out such funny scenes... :(

The POTIONS SNAPE- thingy is quite succesful, I bet everyone wonders what it means... hehe... I'll never tell, I'll never tell

[dog star]

Let them wonder...and then let them discover the greatness that is our dear Potions Master. ;)

[Puffskein]

Originally posted by dog star
That brings in a theory present in many fan fics...that Severus and Remus were actually friends in their school years

Not impossible, but I doubt it. Wouldn't they have brought it up in the shack in POA?

[Remus Lupin]

No Way! Snape would never admit that he has firneds or feels betrayed becuse it would be "bad for his tough scary guy image" besides that he would never admit that in front of his worst nemisis Sirius.

[dog star]

I could see where it wouldn't have been brought up in the Shrieking Shack in PoA...because they were talking about the betrayal of Harry's parents, not the Snape vs. Marauders rivalry, at the time. The Snape vs. Marauders thing came earlier, I think, before they knew Sirius was innocent.

[Remus Lupin]

I know you're going to hurt me, but that sorta supports two theories i have.

1) He hated Sirius becuse he felt that he killed the person who saves his life, making it impossible for him to ever repay his debt.

2) If Snape really did have a "thing" For Lily Potter, then thinking Sirius killed her just adds more fule to his hating fire! =^_^=

*runs away from the tomatos thrown*

[HogwartsChaplain]

Originally posted by Remus Lupin
...theories i have.

1) He hated Sirius becuse he felt that he killed the person who saves his life, making it impossible for him to ever repay his debt.
This is a great theory-- I like it. It makes sense. Snape may in some ways hate Harry, but Harry is his only hope for repaying his debt to James, so that impells Snape to watch out for Harry when Harry is in danger.

Also, discovering that Sirius wasn't responsible for James' and Lily's death, and that Wormtail was, would compel Snape to the mission he's preparing to embark on.

Thanks for sharing your theory, Christina. No tomatoes from me... at least not for theory #1! :whistle:

[ronrocks]

I can't really say I "like" Snape. He makes me very angry the way he is always picking on Harry, Ron and Hermoine. It is hard for me to understand an adult (and teacher) holding a grudge against child just because he hated that child's father. Plus, I am still upset about his very cruel remark to Hermoine in GoF about not seeing a difference in her teeth (when she was hit by Draco's curse). But I respect his decision to turn on Voldermort and the Death Eaters and risk his life to help spy for the "good" side. I really hope we will find out more about Snape in future books, so we can understand his motivation better.

[dog star]

I think Snape is still very much a child inside...immature and vindictive. He was never really given the chance to be a child when he *was* a child, and, as a result, he's held onto that in some respects.

[Remus Lupin]

Heck, not even that. I know some adults that get thier jollies off on making little kids cry (I would know, i've had one of them, Mrs. R. She was horrible about that). Though I do see what doggy is saying. That and, some people regress in mental age as they get older (Like me for example, yaay sponge bob!! :))

[ronrocks]

I agree that Snape is immature and vindictive, and this is the reason I can not bring myself to like him. It really is time for him to let go of the things that happened in the past and start behaving like an adult! I know there has to be good inside Snape because Dumbeldore trusts him so much. I just wish he would display his good side a little more often.

[Remus Lupin]

^ Yes, but see that's the problem. He CAN'T show his good side for multiple reasons. a) It keeps people away from him, his work is dangerous and having people he cares about or care about him near him could put them in serious jepordy. b) He likes being alone, scaring people off insures that. c) He might be afraid of betrayal, he sees it happen all the time, and he refuses to be hurt like that.

I'm sure there are many other reasons, but i can;t think of them right now

[dog star]

For some reason I want to say that he won't let people get close to him because he doesn't want to risk hurting them, should Voldemort and his cronies find out about their relationship, be it romantic or otherwise.

[stellaluna]

Originally posted by HogwartsChaplain
Snape may in some ways hate Harry, but Harry is his only hope for repaying his debt to James, so that impells Snape to watch out for Harry when Harry is in danger.



I thought he had already repaid: Quirrel trying to curse his broom in PS -Snape mumbling counter-curse? I thought that was it...
I could be wrong, but I remember Dumbledore saying, that Snape spke the counter-curse to repay his old debt. :huh:

Oh, by the way, I agree with the theory of Christina. I hadn't thought of it, but it makes sense. :yup:

[Wild Rose]

Remus Lupin, I agree with all of your points there. I can understand some of them from a personal point of view. Sometimes it isn't safe for people to be close to you, either for them or for you.

@-'-,-----------

[stellaluna]

Isn't it exhausting to type this rose under every post of yours?

[Slytherin_Girl]

Hey!
I just want to say how can you think snape is totaly evil... cuz is NOT!!!! he spyed for dumbledore and he is like a sex magnet!!!! His dark side makes him even more irresitable!!! I LOVE :love: the Marauder with the exception of Wormtail!!!!!! Ignore Amagius she knows KNOWTHING!!!!! Any way, snape maybe dosen't like Harry, but too bad for Harry. Snape can like or disslike anyone he wants to! Plus, Potter's not a slyth (like me) so why should snap favor him?!?!?Beacause he's the boy-who-lived!!!!! He defeated You-Know-Who!!!!poke: And your 2 afrid to say Voldemort! But I'm not!! Voldemort Voldemort Voldemort Voldemort Voldemort Voldemort Voldemort Voldemort Voldemort Voldemort Voldemort Voldemort Voldemort Voldemort Voldemort Voldemort Voldemort Voldemort hahahha :devil: I AM NOT TO AFRAID TO SAY VOLDIE'S NAME!!!! I'm just too lazy to say it!!!grrrrrr (Do you find her anoying??? I DO!!!!!!!!!!) I LOVE SNAPE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

~Slytherin Girl:devil:

I love the Marauder (but not Peter!)

~Animagi Girl poke:

P.S. Slytherins are better then ravenclaws

[Inkwolf]

I would like to bring up the point (again) that, although Snape is often childish and vindictive and unfair, quite often it seems that he is simply doing his job, and Harry puts the worst interpretation on it, or makes things ten times worse by mouthing off. Note that quite often, when Snape is accusing Harry....Harry IS in fact, guilty of what Snape is accusing him of! Quite often, when he punishes Harry, Harry was, in fact, doing something he was likely to be punished for. And though the other teachers seem to cut him more slack, it's quite likely they would not do so if he reacted to THEIR being annoyed with him the same way he responds to Snape. No, I don't blame Harry for being hostile to Snape, Snape asked for it, really. But Harry can't REALLY complain if he's punished twice as much by a teacher to whom he is twice as rude to as the others, if you get what I mean.

[dog star]

*is slightly confused by Slytherin_Girl's post*

I agree that Snape is not evil...but...what was with the repeated all-caps Voldemorts?

I'm a Slytherin myself (I bounce between Slytherin and Ravenclaw depending on which test I'm taking, but I come out as Slytherin more often), but I do think his "house favoritism" is more like "children of Death Eater favoritism" in an effort to save his own neck.

[Animagi Girl]

I can answer questions bout Slytherin Girl's post! I was kinda typing some other stuff in while she was going on about how she loved Snape. :o I was the person who said "I love the Marauders and that stuff about Harry defeating You-Know-Who." K? Does that help everyone who read her post? She was over at my house earlier.

~Animagi Girl

[Wild Rose]

Very confusing. And no, I type the rose very fast, so it is just a habit now. Do you mind it?

@-'-,----------------------

[stellaluna]

No, I just wondered, I like it. But I'm quite lazy and would put it into my signature... :smile:

[lupinlover]

Now wait.
Before someone comes and closes this thread, I realize that several threads have been created about Snape, but I searched this topic really thouroughly and I haven't found any about WHY Snape chooses to make himself so unpopular.

Yes, I said choose.

Okay, he's obviously had a bad past: the parents fighting and being made fun of at school.

I say that he chooses to be unpopular because many kids' parents are divorced/ fighting and for the majority of us, high school's a nightmare. While both can be damaging experiences, but I've known people who have gone through both, and have turned out to be well-adjusted adults.

To be fair, though, we've only seen a little snapshot of what life was like for Snape in the past and more could have happened that have made him his way, but think about it:

He's a reformed Death Eater, and is now promoting good over evil.

While he doesn't have his desired position, he's a professor at the best wizarding school in the world.

Aside from the privllege of working at Hogwarts, he should also gain some sort of satisfaction from being a teacher, and watching his students grown and learn.

He's the head of a house

He has both the respect and trust of Dumbledore (That could make me happy for life!!)

So then, tell me why he should he be so intent on making himself and everyone around him so miserable??

I'm not just talking about Harry and the Gryffindors, everyone except the Slytherins basically despise the man.

Trust me, I'm not asking for a warm and cuddily Snape (could you even read the books?) I'm just wondering, what's up with Snape?

Oh, and this is NOT a Snape bashing session. I love the character and I would be absolutely destroyed if JKR removed him from the series.

[HannahStarr]

Snape has to keep a cold front so that people like Lucius Malfoy won't think he's switched sides. I mean, what would you do if you were a Gryffindor, walked into his classroom, and was actually greeted with a pleasant "hello"? I'd think something was wrong with the man. Then again, maybe Snape just doesn't know how to be nice.

[Hermione]

I believe that part of the reason Snape is the way he is is because he has to maintain the appearence of hating everyone except the Death Eaters and Slytherins. The other part is that I don't really think that Snape is much of a 'people person', he's more of the type of person that seems to like being alone simple because they don't strike the right cord with others.

[Sabine]

Part of ot may well be due to the fact that he has to keep up a front.

On the other hand --- sometimes when you love people and let them near you they disappoint or leave you. This hurts. And some people actually decide that letting no one near them isn't as painfull as the hurt when you loose them or they "disappoint" you.

Sabine

[KeyserSoze]

Also, I've had some teachers, especially professors at college and some think that they are better than others and look very favorably upon their favorite students while giving no help or very little to others. I've also had teachers that were very strict and commanded complete attention and obedience when in their classroom. I think Snape is somewhat of a combination of these things, plus having the life he's had might make him a bit cynical towards others that don't exactly know. Another point is that to be a Death Eater, it seems to me that you need somewhat of an emotional detachment which Snape obviously has towards most students.

[Jill]

It all depends upon whether or not Snape doesn't trust people and therefore shows this through his attitude towards other people. He jumps in before anyone else can hurt him. You know like someone who has been bullied too much and desides to take a stand but at the wrong people because he is still too affraid to confrount those that hurt him in the past. Or simply because he can not get at the maurders because most have died except for Lupin.

I also believe that it might be a frount to show to the children whos parents are death eaters that he is still a mean death eater and has not changed. He would need to do this if he was to spy on Voldermort. Snape can not go around loving the muggle born or mudblood children if he is a death eater; it would not look good for him.

Saying that even though some of this might be a frount, I think some of this has to do with his past and spy or not he would still miss trust people due to that reason.

[roberto]

Why do people make the choice to be popular?

Some other people have said it, but Snape really strikes me as a minsathrop, he reall dislikes people. Even those people who he gets along with (Dumbledore, Malfoy) he does so because he HAS to. Dumbledore helped Snape get out of the DEs and get a job; Malfoy still allows Snape to be part of the circle of DEs. Snape deals with other professors, but we never really see him have much of a relationship with any of them.

[Masterfroggy]

It all depends upon whether or not Snape doesn't trust people and therefore shows this through his attitude towards other people. He jumps in before anyone else can hurt him. You know like someone who has been bullied too much and desides to take a stand but at the wrong people because he is still too affraid to confrount those that hurt him in the past. Or simply because he can not get at the maurders because most have died except for Lupin.

I also believe that it might be a frount to show to the children whos parents are death eaters that he is still a mean death eater and has not changed. He would need to do this if he was to spy on Voldermort. Snape can not go around loving the muggle born or mudblood children if he is a death eater; it would not look good for him.

Saying that even though some of this might be a frount, I think some of this has to do with his past and spy or not he would still miss trust people due to that reason.

Snape has not got a choice, he is a product of his upbringing, he is but a pale reflection of the things that have happened to him in his 35 years on this planet, he might if he had more will power try and suppress his feeling of superiority, but I think he does not want to even try.

He knows that his feelings are out of step with everyone elses but knowing the type of person he is, I just know that he feels that everyone else is wrong, in some respect he is from the same mould as Sirius Black, the only difference is Sirius was filled with doubt, and that is why he was willing to question the thing he had been brought up to believe.
Snapes bitterness towards the "Bullies Four" was made worse by his inability to do anything to correct the popular misconception that they were nice people, where as he knew with every fibre of his soul that they were in fact scum.

Snape as a child was shown the way of the world (if the pensieve is to be believed) by his parents, you gain things in his world only by the suffering of others, be it your evening meal being ready the second you enter the house, or getting promotion by destroying your competition, Snape is your classic bully, he has no shame at his behaviour because he does not think it is wrong, if he were to think about how he affects others (which I very much doubt he would ever do) he probably would think them was weaklings, who deserved to be made to suffer, were you to question him and say that he was wrong, I would give you good odds that his reaction would be along the lines of "The strong have always preyed on the weak, is it wrong for the lion to hunt the deer, would it be natural for the lion only to hunt deer with no familiy to support, after all lions have to eat." more likly he would just sneer at you and think you weak.

He is misanthropist he hates mankind, he hates people who are weaker than he is, and he hates Stong people for being stronger than he is and both types are hated for holding him back from getting what is rightfully his.
What I am not saying is he is evil, or even bad, but to clothe him in some fanciful notions that he behaves like he does, because he has some secret mission to complete, is fantasy, he is not nice, he is not sweet, and no amount of wish fulfilment will make him so. At the moment he is on the side of good, but he could change, (I think he will in the next book, but that's another thread) in to a DE, he would like to have more power, and Dumbledore is holding him back, therefore Dumbledore is the enemy (weak) Lord Voldemort is stronger than Snape and he is therefore the enemy.

Were he really a weak person he would appear to change and be nicer to Harry, and then I could agree that it's all because he suffered as a child, but going back to what I said about Sirius, he to suffered as a child, you could not help growing up in a household like the Blacks family without suffering, but he tried to change, sometimes he failed and reverted to type(he was a bully) but for the most part he held his nature at bay and was quite nice, Snape has no reason to change. He for the most part had succeeded in his nastiness, he has a good job and lots of weak children to bully, he is only held back from what is after all rightfully has be a weak old fool that will soon be out of the way.

Some people choose to be unpleasent, others it is a natural skill that with practice becomes a real art form Sanpe I think is of the latter type.

Just my two Knuts worth

[rotsiepots]

Choosing to be unpopular is something Snape can control. He can choose to push people away before they have the opportunity to push him away; he can be the powerful one who determines the nature of the relationship between himself and another, not the other person.

Ultimately it probably just comes down to his lousy childhood and the fact that he probably never had many friends at school. Perhaps he presented a more "raw" or genuine form of himself when he was at school and realised that people still didn't like him. He probably reasoned that attempting to be disliked (and therefore being in control) is better than being disliked in general.

[Picko]

I think he just has a poor personality, which funnily enough is not something that most people can control. He was simply born to be a cold individual, coupling that with his life's experiences and he knows no better.

[Weatherby]

I agree with rotsiepots. If you put yourself out there and are still rejected it's going to be more painful than having no friends because you're prickly and cold to everyone.
That was his choice. Who wants to think they are alone because they are undesirable and boring?

I think his choice is around 50-50. You'll never be universally popular so that's beyond his control. How much is this his natural self and how much is a cover up to stop people from getting too close?

[hesdead-dealwithit]

Another thing - Snape's character is at the basic level not saintly. It is not perfect. So, the students hate what they see on the surface, but if they saw what was below, they could potentially not like it either. Snape at his most basic level is insecure. If he presents the character that we see, then he guarantees the adoration of the Slytherins. If he shows who he really is, he potentially could be hated by everyone. And that is what Snape most fears - not having anyone who likes him, not having anyone who supports him. Snape would rather have a minority of people like him then have the possibility of everyone not like him. (And if you think about it, most of us are like that, too.)

[Algernon]

I'm not so sure that Snape CHOOSES to be unpopular. sure, he is a bit of a grump but that doesn't mean that one day he said "geez, i really wanna be unpopluar, how can I achieve this, i think ill act really grumpy". I think he is unpopular because he's grumpy, not grumpy because he wants to be unpopular.

[rotsiepots]

It's not quite that simple. Snape doesn't choose to be unpopular, but he does choose to be cold and spiteful which, in turn, makes his unpopular.

It's easier for him to carry around his angst, mistrust and negative feelings and to reflect them in his personality than it is for him to deal with them and move on.

[Liselle]

I can't take claim for this, I saw it posted by someone else (Hikari_Nanase). I think you will enjoy the points made anyway. Its long but well worth the read! Enjoy
Liselle


The text

Whilst studying for my dreaded human bio midterm, I suddenly realized it hath been three hours since my last break and decided to indulge in a bit of Snape.

The result is this lovely article:

Case in Point: Severus Snape
By now, any number of people discussing the Potions master have cited Snape's introductory speech about there being no foolish wand-waving or silly incantations in HIS class. And while I believe Rowling may have shown us Molly stirring her cookpots with her wand at one point, we never see Snape or anyone else using their wand to stir a cauldron while producing a Potion.

Yet, clearly magic must be used in Potions-making or even Muggles could do it. And that is highly unlikely. I suspect that if you gave a Muggle a set of ingredients and a cauldron and told him to set to it, all he would end up with is a very lumpy, probably toxic mess.

I tend to regard Snape's opening speech to the first-years in the nature of throwing out a challenge that although they will hardly believe that this is magic since there is no "foolish wand-waving" involved, it is magic for all of that, and magic that they probably haven't the wit to master. I have no doubt whatsoever that Potions brewing requires the very active use of magic in order to work at all.

Magic, and ritual. The whole construction and assembly of a Potion is as close to formal, ceremonial "magick" as what Rowling chooses to show us of the subject ever gets. (In fact, it is interesting to note that the only glimpse of out-and-out magical "ritual" we HAVE seen so far was structured around the assembly and use of a Potion.)

Potion brewing seems inherently to be an extremely formal, highly structured branch of magic - on a purely physical level. This kind of formal, ritualistic structuring seems to seep over into other parts of Snape's demeanor as well. It certainly is a large part of what makes his mannerisms so different from everyone else's. It also probably colors his perceptions of the world around him. Having to watch an ever-changing parade of adolescents slogging away over their cauldrons in a thoroughly slovenly manner with not a clue about proper deportment or respect for the process probably infuriates him. (Any takers on the likelihood that it is Dumbledore's irreverence over ceremony which so baffles and frustrates Snape?)

In addition to that, the kind of accidents that happen in Potions class, and the potential frequency of those accidents would tend to support the reading that a Potions class is a situation where you've got a roomfull of young wizards with still developing powers trying to focus and direct magical energies wandlessly. Which is bloody dangerous! You definitely want someone with good reflexes and a cool head in charge. The good Professor's customary watchfulness is a job requirement.

As to the "good Professor's" character; it's reasonably evident that within the parameters of my interpretation of Dark vs. Light magic, Severus Snape has probably had a number of possible opportunities in which he might have sustained some degree of psychic damage from the unrestrained use of the Dark Arts. He remains at further risk (however slight) as a professional Potions brewer due to the continuing need to focus magic wandlessly. But what the actual level of such (possible) damage might be remains uncertain since it probably overlays what, from our glimpse into the Pensieve, seems likely to have been a rather poorly-socialized base, to begin with.

It is possible, for example, to postulate an intelligent and under-supervised child with access to an extensive library doing some early damage to himself unwarily. Although our hints regarding the Snape family background so far suggest it would not be wise to run away with this idea.

It is also easy to hypothesize a Snape family history of perfectly legitimate involvement in Dark Arts research of long enough standing to allow for at least a few recorded occurrences of DA-related dementia to their "credit". It is possible that at least one of such cases was recent enough for Severus to have observed it at first hand (a grandparent, a great-uncle or aunt, permanently confined to St. Mungo's for the safety of the rest of the family, perhaps?) We must not run away with this possibility, either, particularly given that it depends entirely upon my own interpretations of the nature and workings of Dark and Light magic, which have not been confirmed in canon.

As to any canon hints regarding Snape's family; The wizarding world is a very small society. In such societies, particularly in the kind of subset of such a society which is obsessed with their bloodlines, everybody tends to be related to just about everybody else. Snape, if he is a pureblood from the same general social group as Malfoy, would probably be some degree of cousin either to Lucius or Narcissa, and quite possibly both of them. However, the glimpses we got in Phoenix, and what we have seen of Snape's conduct do not support this reading of his social status within the wizarding world.

We get a number of suggestions in canon that Severus may be from a quite different background from the Malfoys. All the way back in PS/SS, at the end of the Gryffindor/Hufflepuff match - which Harry brought to an end in about five minutes - once Snape, who had volunteered to referee the match, landed his broom, we saw him spit bitterly (and publicly) upon the ground. Somehow, I cannot square that little demonstration with a wizard who was brought up according to the sort of standards to which the Malfoy sprat is being held. Not unless he hasn't yet outgrown a severe case of adolescent rebellion and is still acting out from that sort of "I'm rough, tough and baaaaad" pose. Which does not really fit anything else we have seen of him.

From those clues that we do get in canon, it is very difficult to make the total add up to the predominant "fanon" interpretation of Aristocratic!Snape. The man spits in public. This is not "couth". And, sharp as he does certainly seem to be, he isn't what you could really call an "intellectual". He is unmistakably "street smart" but outside of his own field (where he is definitely, but definitely, on top of things) he doesn't really seem to have that outstandingly high an accuracy rating. (Kappas are not either "more usually found in Mongolia".) And his manner of "scoring off" of people is not at all in the same sort of drawlingly "superior" style of a Draco Malfoy, but is more pointedly snide and spiteful. For the most part, he behaves like a churl. This really does not add up to his being Lucius Malfoy's second cousin on his mother's side.

What this behavior sounds most like to me (and at this point this is still just a theory) is something much closer to the (Crabbe & Goyle?) hereditary "retainer" class of (apparent) pureblood than to that of the Lords of the Manor. Minions do also come in the scrawny, shifty, clever - and vicious - mode as well as in that of the more obvious muscle-bound thug. Snape's thin, sallow, greasy description is very much in the style of the visual tags that are not infrequently applied to this secondary class of "henchman". The "tough, wily street kid" is the usual form that this one takes in other genres, such as gangster stories. Or the thin, oily, sharply dressed, and shifty - or dead-eyed fellow with the shiv, who waits in the dark of the alley. (Yes, that kind of "family man".)

I have come progressively more around to the viewpoint that Snape's family background is indeed that of a traditional family of "retainers" (the clever sort who served as stewards and managers, or as specialists in a given field) to one of the ancient wizarding "great houses". Most of such retainers' families would have left their positions of direct service on the Great House's family estates at the start of the Seclusion, with the removal of the wizarding landholders from their country estates in favor of a townhouse in a secluded wizarding district, but most of these former retainers remained in association with their former "patrons" through ancient ties of mutual obligation. I would imagine that the Snapes, at the highest estimate would be among the wizarding "middle class", chiefly associated with white-collar jobs (in or out of the Ministry) and the traditional "professions". Generally respectable, but without an "income" that exempts their offspring from having to support themselves. And from the greying underwear clue, it is not unlikely that the Snapes' socioeconomic level was no higher than the "petit bourgeoise".

It also quite easy to speculate that Severus is not the first Potions expert in his family. In fact, he may very well come from a long line of professional Herbalists and Apothecaries. If this is the case there could very well be a long line of shopkeepers in his background, as well. But I doubt that his is a family background consistent with that of the true Artisan class where everyone in the family pitches in and manufactures artefacts for sale.

I could very easily see a 6-8 year-old Severus growing up above the family Apothecary shop on the corner of Diagon and Knockturn Alleys, (or their equivalents in some other urban wizarding district. I very much doubt that he is country bred) helping his parents to put together their regular monthly order from their hereditary "patron's" Head of Family, and feeling terribly grown-up to be trusted to take an active part in "the family business". I can also readily see a slightly older Severus making deliveries or running errands for his parents throughout both Alleys and learning to be watchfully wary and untrusting of the sort of strangers (personable or otherwise) who might deliberately approach a child in either venue. If this sort of backstory is anywhere on target, his having become the Potions master for one of the largest Magical schools in Europe qualifies as a considerable success story.

There is at least a bit to suggest that Snape's personal standing is very much in the middle, economically. Potion brewing is not likely to be a inexpensive discipline with its need for a broad range of physical equipment and a steady demand for consumable supplies, and I am sure that he maintains his own personal tools and supplies as well as those provided by the school. He also appears to direct more than a passing interest in the cut and presumably the quality of his clothing and personal effects. (Reminding me forcibly of "My Father the Clotheshorse".) Snape's robes may or may not come off the rack, rather than being custom tailored, but we have yet to be told anything of these matters, and I doubt that we ever will be. Without knowing how well the teachers at Hogwarts are paid we cannot really postulate whether Snape is living up to the last knut of his salary, doing just fine and putting something aside for his old age, or supplementing his salary with private income

Another major issue which is still somewhat uncertain in canon is just to what extent Professor Snape may share the typical Death Eater attitude toward wizards and witches from Muggle families or those of mixed blood. The fact that the term "mudblood" was never heard to pass his lips until OotP (and then only under what must be admitted to have been considerable duress) has made this issue a particularly difficult one to draw any firm conclusion on. And raises yet another interesting possibility as to his background.

The fact that Snape joined the Death Eaters in the first place makes it fairly clear that he at least did not find their stated agenda repellent in itself. And, yes, I do assume that Snape's early upbringing probably did have all of the underpinnings of conventional pureblood bigotry. For one thing, he was almost certainly raised in an atmosphere where it was considered acceptable to look down upon wizards and witches whose families were Muggles, or those who were raised outside the wizarding world and, consequently, had no sense of the 'right' way to do things.

However, apart from the one incident which we saw, when he was 15-16 (and, for what it's worth, I'm just a little inclined to wonder whether his lashing out at Lily Evans for trying to "rescue" him might not be an inherent component of just what made that particular memory so awful to him. A painful memory is just as likely to be over something 'unworthy' that you did as it is to be something that was done to you), virtually every example that we have seen of Snape's other attempts to "pull rank" have been based upon some factor other than the purity of his bloodline. It is always either his age, or his position, or his understanding, or his experience. We have never seen him try to play the "family" card. We have never seen him openly waving the pureblood flag in anybody's face. The fact that he may indeed be pureblood (a possibility still more implied than openly stated. Slytherin House has accepted at least one notable halfblood to our certain knowledge) seems not to be an issue that he regards as holding sufficient weight for him to attempt to deploy it in maintaining a position of dominance, even in direct conflicts with known Muggle-born or cross-breed members of the other Houses.

Which, in retrospect, and, given the widespread acceptance of such attitudes, begins to look rather odd.

It is possible that his restraint is merely in accordance to school policy as regards the conduct of the staff. But it is also entirely possible that Snape has some other reason for not attempting to invoke this particular advantage. That this particular consideration is of such absolute and all-absorbing importance among the ranks of the pureblood supremacists suggests that it is possible that Snape does not raise this point because he cannot raise this point. That, by the criterion of the likes of Malfoy and company, he does not actually qualify as a "true" pureblood, even if the unfortunate mudblood ancestor is many generations back in history.

If Snape is indeed descended from a family of traditional retainers then according to the kind of standards of lineage as those upheld by the Black family, he would by definition have owed his descent from a "mudblood" who was "discovered" by some wizarding aristocrat and educated at his expense.

It is also not impossible that Snape's more recent forebearers were not as exacting in the matter of their bloodlines as their descendents have since become. There could be a bonafide wizard/Muggle or Muggle-born marriage lurking somewhere in the Snape woodshed. I would estimate at least 3 and more probably something like 4-5 generations back. Or even dating to the pre-Seclusion period. Far enough for it not to really matter anywhere except in Slytherin House.

If this is the case (and at this point in the series this is pure speculation), then Snape would probably have set off to Hogwarts confident in the awareness of being "practically" a pureblood, and would, upon being sorted into Slytherin, have gotten a very rude shock. He would also have been made very aware that he was only being "graciously" allowed to participate in the activities of his better-connected fellows for the sake of his usefullness. His relationship with Lucius Malfoy, such as we have seen it presented to date, does not exclude the possibility of it having grown out of some act of patronage on Malfoy's part. And for that matter, Snape's overall *********** of temperament might well be grounded upon a perception that, do what he may, to the people whose opinions matter, he will never be "quite" good enough to be accounted an equal.

Although, in the event, his blood was certainly pure enough to be acceptable to Voldemort. But then, Voldemort's followers do not generally know that their leader is the son of a witch and a Muggle.

As to that; there probably were a good many different individual reasons why people joined up in support of Voldemort. And I suspect that one of Snape's biggest ones had to do with Malfoy's influence. We have finally learned in Order of the Phoenix that Lucius Malfoy is about 5 years older than Snape (and the Marauders) and their years at Hogwarts would have only briefly overlapped. Just long enough for Lucius to have noted young Severus as "that scrawny little kid who knows all those hexes" and for Severus to have learned that the Malfoys were "important people that you want to know."

We have also been told more than once that young Snape was openly fascinated by the Dark Arts, and there is no question that the opportunity to study and practice them (which he could not have done at Hogwarts) would have been a powerful lure, regardless of whatever other agenda was being trumpeted along with it.

Snape, I think was a late bloomer (or even a non-bloomer) in any social or emotional context. In his fascination with the Dark Arts, I suspect that he never thought to question the soundness of the values held by the sort of people who practiced them. I tend to think we've got a clear example here where the preoccupations of Slytherin House did him a great disservice.

(As I have stated in the essay regarding the Hogwarts Houses, Rowling is in her most spectacularly self-contradictory mode where she lays out the values of Slytherin House. It is presumably the house of the pureblood. Well, okay. That is simple enough to accept. It is also the Dark Arts house. Well, that's okay too. No particular contradiction there. But then she tells us that the criterion the Hat uses for sorting these kids is ambition. WTF?! What has ambition to do with being a pureblood? What possible effect can any amount of ambition have on becoming a pureblood? Any effect that being a pureblood might have upon ambition would more likely be to lessen it, if anything. You've already "arrived," what more is necessary? Ambition seems to be diametrically opposed to the kind of "Slytherin manner" demonstrated by Malfoy and his goons. I just don't get it.)

However, given that Slytherin House seems to be the only one that tends to support the Dark Arts, and that within that House it's the purebloods who are usually the social leaders, such considerations would tend to muddy the waters in the perception of a very poorly-socialized adolescent such as the young Severus Snape. If all the Dark wizards he has ever met think like this then it might be quite a while before he realized that adopting this particular mental outlook wholesale is, first; not necessary, and second; not really him.

I think that Snape did definitely want to belong somewhere (although not to the point of getting himself sorted into Hufflepuff). The capsule glimpses we have of his childhood looked pretty alienating, and few youngsters manage to flourish in that sort of an environment. But he seems to have been not at all selective about what he wanted to belong to. Serious self-esteem issues there, perhaps? Were the Death Eaters the only people who welcomed him? Clearly, however bright he may be, he demonstrated seriously bad judgement as a youth. He may have been very late to finally start thinking for himself.

And, I also suspect that it was Sirius Black who first pointed Snape out to James Potter as a Dark Arts fanatic. Sirius was brought up in exactly that kind of Slytherin House, Dark Arts tolerant atmosphere himself and he would have immediately recognized in Snape the sort of boy of whom his own family would have probably approved. And, consequently, made a point of doing Snape a bad turn as soon as an opportunity arose. James, by all accounts, was brought up to honestly loathe the Dark Arts. And to provide James Potter with a convenient "outside" target would have deflected any Dark Arts related criticism and contempt from Sirius himself.

Another interpretation which seems to be at least somewhat contradicted by information that we have already been told in canon, is the widely accepted fanon concept of Friendless!Snape.

This interpretation appears to be supported by our trip into the Pensieve in OotP, where Snape's general unpopularity and solitary behavior would tend to confirm it. But in GoF, Sirius Black directly tells us all that Snape was not completely friendless for the entire time that he was at Hogwarts. We were told that he was a part of a whole little gang of Slytherins. Nevertheless, we do not see him and his friends evaluating their performance in the DADA OWL over the lunch break, just Snape sitting alone in the shade rereading his test papers. (And from the Pensieve visit, one is forced to wonder whether he may have taken up with that little gang only after the incident that which we witnessed. Or if, contrary to what appears to be typical Hogwarts behavior, Snape's friends were in a different year group.)

Stop and think about that, and what it implies.

Remus Lupin might be able to sympathize. Here is another man who was a member of a little self-contained group when he was at school. In fact, it was a larger group than that of the Marauders. Sirius mentioned six Slytherins by name as composing Snape's "gang". Two of those (Rosier and Wilkes) were killed by Aurors by the time they were 21. Two more (the Lestranges) were in Azkaban before they were 25 and of the six only Snape and Avery are still alive and walking free. Avery got off on the Imperius defense, after Voldemort's defeat and his social level may not have been high enough for people to overlook that the way they have for Malfoy. In any case, we never saw him until the graveyard meeting at the end of GoF. He does not seem to show any eagerness to retain contact with the school, or with Snape.

Snape was never publicly accused (probably due to having cut a deal with Dumbledore when he turned spy) prior to Voldemort's defeat. Sirius was inside from the day after that event, and in no position to know what went on after that, but if Sirius claims that he never heard any accusations* - and he claims he didn't - that implies that none of the other prisoners mentioned Snape either, for all that they had spoken bitterly of "Wormtail". Perhaps all that Snape's exile at Hogwarts has cost him is further contact with Avery, and we don't really know anything much from canon about Avery's character (other than that he seems to be rather high-strung).

(*Sirius also claims that he didn't know that Snape was teaching at Hogwarts. This despite the fact that we were told in OotP that Snape had started teaching a couple of months before Voldemort fell, or Sirius's arrest. Either Sirius had not been so deeply inside the Order as we have been led to believe, or he had taken no interest in the doings of Hogwarts, or his memory was faulty.)

As to Snape's exile at Hogwarts; from Draco's comments in CoS Snape seems to have still been in good favor with Lucius at least to that point in the series. And appears to continue to be so during the course of Phoenix. I suspect that he has been feeding information regarding the school to Lucius (who was on the Board, after all) ever since he went to work there. Lucius may even have had something to say about getting him his job in the first place, although whether this appointment was orchestrated from behind the scenes by Dumbledore or Voldemort is uncertain. It certainly had Voldemort's approval.

As to the Dark Arts and the original lure of the Voldemort cause; To a young Snape, as I tend to read him, the whole issue would probably, at first, have looked very simple. Particularly if I am correct in my speculation that the Dark Arts were only finally removed from the Hogwarts curriculum upon Dumbledore's having become Headmaster. Snape would have considered the study of the Dark Arts to be his destiny, and have arrived to find that the class was no longer taught. He also no doubt dreamed of power and glory, and he would readily have signed on to the movement which assured him of the opportunities to achieve all of these. Particularly if he was to do so under the sponsorship of someone as prominent as Lucius Malfoy, and even more particularly if there had been nothing in his own upbringing which would have conditioned him to regard the stated sentiments of Voldemort's agenda as abhorrent in themselves.

But, if any of the above is the case, while the arrogance of youth and its accompanying conviction of personal immunity might very well have shielded a young Snape during the early days, when he considered Dark Arts study to be a part of his "birthright" that those wusses in the Ministry were trying to deny him, he might after a period of unrestrained Dark Arts activity under Voldemort's sponsorship, have very well found himself undergoing some "dark night of the soul" as a result of those activities which might have set any available family skeletons dancing, and may have served as the necessary wake-up call prompting him to rethink whether signing up with the DEs was really all that good an idea.

If, despite what appears to be at least an average to high inherent capacity to conduct magical energy, within a fairly short period of imprudent indulgence he managed to "hit the wall" and realize that at this rate, rather than power and glory, the end of all his dreams was far more likely to spiral down into his being just another Snape in St. Mungo's, a personal epiphany of this nature might also very well have fully opened his eyes to any subtle symptoms of DA-related dementia which his Master was not quite managing to conceal. It might even have been considerations along this line which prompted him to seek out and offer his support to Dumbledore.

We do not know whether the current state of medi-magic can correct or repair the kind of psychic damage that indulgence in the Dark Arts produces. Such a process may be available. But, first, one must admit that one needs such treatment, and, under the regulations of the Ministry concerning the Dark Arts, one probably must explain how one originally came by such damage. This might deter more people from seeking treatment than it ultimately assists.

I also think that Snape proved to be invaluable in the post-Voldemort mop-up of the DE's activities. For example, I think that Snape was almost certainly the person who provided the information which resulted in the capture of the Lestranges (former close friends and schoolmates), and Barty Crouch. I suspect that this, as well as the knowledge that Crouch is supposed to be dead, accounts for Snape's shock as well as his immediate recognition when Crouch's polyjuice wore off. I also suspect that the Crouches may have been another old Slytherin family and, given their respective ages, Snape's student years at Hogwarts are certain to have overlapped Crouch Jr.'s, even as they overlapped Malfoy's.

(Side note: I am inclined to believe that a good deal of the reason that Crouch and Pettigrew were able to subdue Moody so readily was the shock effect of Moody's finding himself under attack by two "dead" men. Ghosts may attack, but they cannot perform spells, so far as we know.)

(For the record, I also tend to think the reason that Dumbledore knew to send Hagrid to Godric's Hollow so quickly was that either Snape told him the attack would be that particular night, or that Dumbledore simply had the house bugged at all entrances to alert him to any arrivals.)

By the time the Lestranges were arrested, there was no longer (if there ever had been) any Ministry policy of leaving the small fry observed but not interfered with in hopes of catching the big fish. By then the emphasis was to get the as much of the inner circle out of commission as possible and leave any remaining small fry without a potential hub around which to regroup. This campaign was not helped by the apparent fact that the Dark Marks all disappeared when the Dark Lord did, leaving investigating Aurors without any definite indication of suspects' allegiances. Of course this also presupposes that the Aurors of the day were aware that the Dark Lord had set a physical mark on all of his followers, and this interpretation is not fully supported in canon.

The disappearance of the Dark Marks would have made a mess of the DE's communication lines as well, and it is possible that even sending up the image of the Dark Mark was now no longer possible (giving additional reason for the panic on all sides at the World Cup when Crouch Jr. managed to do exactly that. The Marks all began to return once Voldemort was again, however vestigially, on the physical plane. But they may not have been apparent even to their bearers for some time).

digression regarding the Dark Mark;

Snape states that the Dark Mark was used by the DEs to identify each other. So it is likely that causing it to be revealed was something which the DEs had some voluntary control over. I suspect that it may have been possible to conceal the mark by magic, which its wearers could normally cancel and restore at will. When they were called by their master this concealment was overridden, and it may have either needed some sort of "cooling off" period before it could be concealed again or Snape simply didn't bother, on the night of Voldemort's rebirth, since he hadn't originally been intending to roll up his sleeves for anyone that evening.

If this is the case, by the time most DEs were no longer in control of the concealment of their Mark they would typically have already been dead or insane, or in the hands of the Dementors, who, Crouch Jr informed us are blind.

In the case of death, Voldemort would be aware of it and have no reason to "call" a corpse. Those who were dead in his service may have had nothing visible any longer to mark them.

In the case of the captured, Voldemort would have fairly quickly been made aware of this as well and taken care not to activate their Marks. It is likely is that no one ever examined those in Azkaban for Marks which might have appeared since their imprisonment.

In the case of the insane, this might also been a situation where Voldemort was either already aware, or was soon informed and took care not to contact these particular followers.

What is also likely is that - good as the system was - there would probably have been a few slip-ups, of which the Dept. of Magical Law Enforcement was, in fact, aware. Either there were too few of these cumulative incidents to have struck the investigating Aurors as significant yet, or this particular information was classified. I think that the fact that any of the DEs were "marked" would have been highly classified information that Crouch Sr. as head of the Dept. of Magical Law Enforcement ruthlessly suppressed. The real Moody may also have known about it, but he also may have learned about that from Dumbledore, or from Snape directly. The false Moody certainly knew it, and taunted Snape on the matter.

Even without magical concealment, the Mark probably wasn't particularly visible when not "active", but there may well be magical ways to cause it to reveal itself - so long as Voldemort was alive and present on the physical plane somewhere to "complete the circuit". After he was gone, there was no longer a connection to be activated, visibly or in any other manner. How much the significance of the Mark on those few captured DEs who were unable to conceal in time was realized is uncertain.

In any case, Fudge, whose background was in the Department of Magical Catastrophes, would not have been on the "need to know" list at all. And remains clearly unaware of its existence even after serving the Ministry for years as Minister of Magic. In fact it is quite possible that sealing those particular records was another of Crouch Sr.'s big "mistakes" which he made in an attempt to protect and reserve it as his own private resource. It is possible that this was the sort of thing that he intended to keep to himself as a tool toward managing to capture that "one last Dark wizard" which had so occupied his ambitions.

Concerning Double-00 Severus and the Great Game;

Which brings us around to a note of ambiguity in Karkaroff's behavior, given Dumbledore's testimony regarding Snape's activities at Karkaroff's hearing. Specifically Dumbledore's statement was that Snape HAD BEEN a Death Eater, and that he had turned spy. Given the fact that Dumbledore DID make that particular defense at Karkaroff's hearing, WHY did Karkaroff go running to Snape once the Dark Mark started returning, rather than to Dumbledore? Didn't the fool realize that it was probably information from Snape that had resulted in his arrest in the first place? I mean, really!

One piece of additional information that has only been given us in OotP, is that it has now been confirmed that Voldemort did send Snape to Hogwarts, presumably to infiltrate Dumbledore's school and to pass information on Dumbledore's actions before he fell at Godric's Hollow. It is this factor which has enabled Snape to allay suspicions and retain contact with the likes of Malfoy throughout the entire period of Voldemort's absence. But, from the wording of Dumbledore's testimony, I am inclined to believe that Snape had been keeping in touch with Hogwarts on Voldemort's orders for some time before he took up his position as the Hogwarts Potions Master, which was only finally accomplished some two months before Voldemort's defeat.

Voldemort would have wanted to place as many agents as possible within Dumbledore's sphere at his earliest convenience, and Snape, according to all indications so far appears to have been one of his first choices of agent. I suspect that Snape's skill as an Occlumens was probably the deciding factor for grooming him to actually take up a position in the School. There was been strong suggestion made in the course of Phoenix that Voldemort is not the only wizard to be a master of Legilimency. Dumbledore seems to share this skill. There is strong indication that with Snape's refusal to continue the Occlumency lessons, Dumbledore may be taking on Harry's training in that field himself.

By the time Voldemort turned his followers loose from the meeting in the graveyard, the news of Karkaroff's flight was public. The capture and Kissing of Barty Crouch Jr. was probably hush-hush information, (shakes the public's confidence in the security of Azkaban, don't you know... Particularly after the public embarrassment over Sirius Black's escape two years earlier). Unless Fudge told him of the event, it might have been a few days before Lucius was able to pick up that little tidbit. By the time Draco got home from Hogwarts he probably found himself facing an inquisition from his father over just what the hell went on at school during his fourth year. And Draco would have brought home the bacon regarding Hermione's capture of Rita Skeeter.

Snape's ongoing task in covering his tracks to Lucius is a whole different ball-game from covering them to Voldemort, and covering them to the Slytherin students is an even simpler matter. But, then, he probably didn't particularly need to cover those tracks to Voldemort. By all indications, Snape was believed to be spying on Dumbledore long before he was spying for Dumbledore. And even that is subject to some question.

During the 3-year gap between the publication of Goblet and that of Phoenix, there was a persistent belief in fandom that Snape would no longer be able to continue spying for Dumbledore within Voldemort's organization. This belief seems to have been based upon a strong conviction that Snape had been "outed" by his action in saving Harry in the broom hexing incident back in PS/SS or by Dumbledore's testimony at Karkaroff's hearing

With the publication of Phoenix, it is clear that Snape has not been outed and that he continues to serve Dumbledore in the capacity of a spy. He retains Lucius Malfoy's good opinion and there is no indication that Voldemort harbors suspicions regarding him. How does one reconcile this apparent contradiction?

Clearly one must do so by forming an alternative interpretation of his actions as they have been presented in the previous four books. Rowling has not suddenly changed her mind as to what the Professor's part in this adventure entails. Consequently, the information that is necessary to unravel the line of actions to date must already be present in the work, despite Rowling's thick overlay of moonshine and misdirection.

Our most basic piece of misdirection is that the books are tightly told from Harry's point of view. It takes a considerable effort of will to keep reminding ourselves that Harry and his friends are a good deal more in the dark as to what is taking place in each book than Dumbledore is. We are also forced to remember that if Dumbledore does indeed trust and depend upon Professor Snape, then he must make a point of seeing to it that Snape has enough information to be able to take the steps necessary to cover his arse.

I have long contended that Snape's actions throughout PS/SS viv-a-vis QuirrellMort was very carefully orchestrated to deflect Voldemort's suspicion. Explaining his actions in PS/SS are a piece of cake. ("How was I to know that was you under Quirrell's turban? Quirrell wasn't ever one of your followers! Why didn't you TELL me?"* or, "How was I to know it was Quirrell hexing the broom? I thought it was one of my 6th or 7th years! Thwarting brats who are flirting with a spell in Azkaban is part of my JOB, ****it!") Given that Snape was not "supposed" to know that Voldemort was hiding under Quirrell's turban, he could have hardly come forward singing Voldemort's praises without looking extremely suspicious. At that point in the series, Snape's need was not to convince Voldemort that he was on his side so much as to convince him that he was not on Dumbledore's. And that he seems to have accomplished very tidily with his tissue of clever ambiguities and his well-acted pose as the wicked-ex-Death-Eater-on-no-one's-side-but-his-own. Evidently his behavior was sufficiently consistent with Voldemort's expectations of his followers' conduct whenever he was not around and not expected to be showing up to pass muster. Any lingering suspicions were set to rest when Snape turned up promptly and took his old place in the circle at the end of GoF.

There is also a very strong indication that Harry may have managed to overturn one of the little set-piece skits which Snape and Dumbledore had planned for QuirrellMort's entertainment and edification. Harry's capture of the snitch brought the Hufflepuff match to a close in something under five minutes. Snape's offer to referee that match coupled with Dumbledore's presence at it seems to suggest that they had something planned for that particular event which may have been designed to offset the impression which had been left after the broom-hexing incident. Snape's behavior when the match was ended prematurely tends to support this reading, and the demonstration was shelved, leaving him to have to fall back on his meeting with Quirrell in the forest instead.

*For that matter, why DIDN'T Squirrelymort contact his followers and get them to help him? What else are followers FOR? Or couldn't he contact them because possessing Quirrell didn't really mean that he was alive again, the Dark Marks were still missing in action, and Quirrell didn't have one anyway

The question has now been solidly answered as to whether Snape continues as a spy. The second question raised is often how does he manage to spy. As to how is Snape spying, I would guess that - on the Voldemort end - once Voldy managed to get himself settled in someplace, Snape has been spying pretty much in the same way that Voldemort sent him into Hogwarts to spy. And - on the Dumbledore end - he has been picking up whatever information is being passed around the DE network. Particularly any names that didn't get turned up the last time. Much of his activity during the summer break seems to have been occupied by courier duty as Voldemort's deputies started re-establishing their links to his secondary tier of followers.

As to where we got the clues necessary to add up the time and realize that Snape started as a teacher at Hogwarts before Voldemort fell;

In the course of Dolores Umbridge making a nuisance of herself with her clipboard Snape admitted to having been teaching at Hogwarts for 14 years. Harry is just 15, so Snape started teaching the year Harry turned 1 year old. This was the year Voldemort fell. But school started Sept 1, and Voldemort didn't fall until Oct 31.

As to Dumbledore's testimony during Karkaroff's hearing in the Pensieve; this came across sounding as if Snape had been spying for Dumbledore for a considerable time before Voldemort actually fell, so it seems likely that there is at least one double-bluff going on. We do not know yet how much is known at either end of this particular pipeline or just how it was set up. But some of the possibilities are;

1. A minority theory popular among a certain sector of Snapefans is that Dumbledore enlisted Snape while he was still at school. (In the aftermath of the werewolf caper?) He sent him to infiltrate Voldemort's organization, and if possible to get Voldy to send him back as a spy in Hogwarts. He made a point of teaching the boy Occlumency in preparation for this mission. The poor penitent DE pose is a double-bluff cover story later added from the Voldemort end.

The most likely suggestions, however, are;

2. Voldemort sent Snape to spy on Dumbledore. Dumbledore won Snape over to his own side. Now Snape is spying on Voldemort and feeding him selected bits of info that Albus gives him for that purpose.

3. Same original set up as in #2, but since Voldy fell the first time Snape has had time to have second thoughts. He is passing info back and forth between both of his principals and is keeping his own council. When the time comes will back the side that offers him the best deal.

4. Voldemort sent Snape to spy on Dumbledore under a cover act of being a poor penitent DE who wants out. Snape is actually spying on Dumbledore and feeding him selected bits of info that Voldemort gives him for the purpose.

This last might even be true. There was very little in Snape's actions in Order of the Phoenix to contradict the possibility that he may be playing a double game of which Dumbledore is not aware. For once Ron Weasley's suspicions could be right. But I suspect that, as in the case of the Redheaded Pimpernel, we won't know the truth of the matter for some time yet. One thing that probably should be remembered at this point is that it was Snape who gave the message to Fudge regarding the capture of Barty Crouch Jr. We do not know what else Snape might have told him, either.

For my own part, I think that it is highly unlikely that Rowling is going to permit us to settle back and relax with no further questions as to Snape's true loyalties between now and the end of the series. I confidently suspected that before we were halfway through Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix, Snape's behavior, or further information regarding his backstory would have put him firmly back in the cross-hairs of readers' suspicions. I was very surprised to see that this did not happen. But we were still given a couple of hints that this question is likely to be raised at some point in the future.

In the light of this, I will make one rock-solid guarantee that at some point before the series ends, we are going to get some information regarding Snape's actions, or his backstory that is going to throw his GoF outing of himself as "the DE who recanted" into question. This information may later turn out to be a red herring, but for at least some time it is going to be up to us to decide what to do with it.

In order to carry any degree of verisimilitude, Snape's original mission would have depended upon there having had some obvious reason for Snape to have remained in contact with Dumbledore throughout the later years of Voldemort's rise. Snape could hardly have become a teacher at the school during Voldemort's reign without Voldemort's knowledge and consent, and it is a good deal more likely that he would have done so at his direction. Since Snape only actually became a teacher a matter of weeks before Voldemort's fall, in order to have been a spy, for either side, for any length of time prior to that point, would mean that there must have been some position in which Voldemort could have placed him where he would be able to gather at least some degree of information without actually being on the staff, until such a time as he might reasonably be hired. From the Dumbledore end, it is unlikely that Snape would have earned the sort of testimony that Albus made at Karkaroff's hearing in only the matter of weeks that he had actually been teaching. Since Snape would have been no more than 21 or 22 at the time of Voldemort's defeat at Godric's Hollow, this would require that there be some reason for him to remain in contact with Hogwarts after finishing school, but before he was sufficiently qualified to be hired as a teacher.

One suggestion;

At the time GoF was published, there was an interview comment by Rowling to the effect that there are no wizarding universities in her interpretation of the wizarding world. (Wizards are a rare breed, and the wizarding population of Europe is probably not quite large enough to support one.) If this is the case, then any form of advanced training would probably be a matter of either some form of independent study or is accomplished within a formal Master/Apprentice program.

The study of Potions mastery, with its extensive physical component and its dependence upon wandless control appears to be the sort of field which would require at least some form of advanced training. In the absence of a university course on the subject, it would stand to reason that the existing wizarding training academies might have some sort of additional responsibility to oversee such independent study programs. If this is the case, then Snape would have had a built-in reason to have retained contact with HogwartsAcademy after finishing his seventh year. At least for the 3-7 years that one might project for either an Independent study "Masters" program or an Apprenticeship.

Now that Voldemort really IS back, and it is clear that Snape seems still to be solidly entrenched in his role as a spy, it is evident that fandom's most common reading of Voldemort's speech in the graveyard regarding the Coward and the Oathbreaker and the Faithful Servant, is bound to have been somewhat off target.

Since Voldemort has at least provisionally accepted Snape's "wicked-ex-DE-on-nobody's-side-but-his-own" act in PS/SS. It is also clear, after the fact, that although Harry obviously missed it, Snape must have been present in the circle of Death Eaters at the graveyard meeting and, was, consequently, an eyewitness to Harry's escape.

According to Sirius Black - whose information was good up to the day after Voldemort's fall - Snape was never publicly suspected of DE activity despite having run with a crowd of later-acknowledged DEs while at school. Nor, as in Pettigrew's case, did any of the imprisoned DEs in Sirius's hearing make any mention of him. In Snape, Voldemort has a follower who has not ever come under public suspicion, and, consequently, one whose "secret" identity is to be preserved. Consequently, the implication is that Snape is one of the DEs that Voldemort passed by without speaking to. This situation may be blown sky high when Karkaroff is captured. But indications are that the game may be deeper than that, and Voldemort had sent Snape into Hogwarts.

Consequently, the implication is that Snape is one of the DEs that Voldemort passed by without speaking to. This situation may be blown sky high when Karkaroff is captured. But indications are that the game may be deeper than that, and Voldemort had sent Snape into Hogwarts with orders to offer to 'spy' for Dumbledore. If this is the case, then Dumbledore's testimony at Karkaroff's hearing (which was not Karkaroff's trial. Karkaroff's trial had taken place nearly a year before the hearing that we saw. Karkarof had been tried, sentenced and imprisoned. He offered to cut a deal as soon as Voldemort himself was out of the way. Most of his information was useless by then, although he did manage to finger Rookwood) would have only confirmed what Voldemort already knew, and had intended.

Now that it has been established that Voldemort did originally send Snape to spy on Dumbledore's organization, the Coward and the Oathbreaker that Voldemort spoke of in the graveyard scene are most likely to have been Karkaroff and Bagman. It would be very much in keeping with the way such things are handled in the series for Voldemort, in pronouncing the ultimate fates of three specific Death Eaters, to have these pronouncements balanced by our presence in Dumbledore'e Pensieve at those three specific Death Eaters' trials. Very much in the way that the fates of the surviving other members of Snape's Hogwarts "gang" that Sirius mentioned should also all have been related and/or viewed before the end of the book.

It is now clear enough to me that it is Karkaroff that Voldemort refers to when speaking of the Oathbreaker. Karkaroff is a slimy specimen, but he does seem to truly have repented of his DE associations. He has made his peace with the Ministry and he clearly was NOT looking forward to a Dark rising. When he sold out he stayed sold. Still, when his Mark began to return who did he go to? Not Dumbledore (and why NOT Dumbledore?). He went to Snape, who he KNOWS was a spy. Snape who he probably now thinks of as the ONLY other person who is in the same boat he is in - that of a genuine ex Death Eater. And Snape rebuffed him. Had he gone to Dumbledore, some provision for his safety may have been made.

According to Voldemort, the Coward will merely be forced to "pay" for his cowardice. The Oathbreaker will be killed. Given that the DEs know that Karkaroff sold them out in return for his own release, I cannot really see Voldemort merely hitting him with a round of Crutius and keeping him on a short leash.

If the Oathbreaker is Karkaroff, then the Coward is almost sure to be Bagman. Chiefly because it seems less than probable that the identities of the three missing DEs referred to in the graveyard speech are those of persons who had not yet been introduced by the time the speech was made. (We have absolutely no certainly on this point. Voldemort could have been referring to completely unknown people at that point in time, but that would be generally regarded as "cheating" on Rowling's part.)

Bagman dodged the bullet at his trial by making himself out to be a simple dupe. Augustus Rookwood, his contact, was already under investigation. Consequently, Bagman betrayed no one, cut no deals and attempted only to save himself. The other DEs have no quarrel with him. In point of fact, he may indeed have been no more than a simple dupe - but he has also been demonstrated to be one extremely shifty character, and truthfulness is not his main stock in trade.

Ludo Bagman also did a bolt by the end of the TriWizard Tournament, under the very useful - and quite plausible - cover of dodging Goblin enforcers over a little matter of gambling debts. This may also be true. But it would not be difficult to believe that his real gamble was over another kind of stakes altogether. He managed to squirm out of a tight spot a dozen years ago, he may very well have decided that he doesn't want to take any further personal risks and to just sit this one out. In his case, I can see a bout of Crutius and being kept on a short leash as lying within the likely parameters.

The identity of the Faithful Servant is no mystery. Despite strenuous attempts by some fans to give this one a more "mysterious" spin, the Faithful Servant was clearly Barty Crouch Jr., referred to as such all the way back in Book 4's first chapter and finally revealed to the reader when he dragged Harry off to his office after the return from the graveyard.

Which all means that during the period that Harry was an unwilling guest at the "feast" Voldemort did not refer to Snape at all.

By this time, there can be very little plausible argument against the reading that Snape was actually present at Voldemort's "re-birthday party". Again, we have to remind ourselves that Dumbledore and Snape are not as much in the dark as the kids are. And that Dumbledore gives Snape enough information to enable him to try to protect himself. And that neither of them is stupid.

I think that once Snape calmed down at the end of PoA, Dumbledore filled him in on it having been Pettigrew who was Voldemort's spy at the time of Voldemort's fall, and that Pettigrew had faked his death, been flushed out of hiding, had managed to escape and was, presumably, on his way to rejoin Voldemort.

Snape, consequently, was alert to any indications that his Dark mark was returning, and reported as much to Dumbledore as soon as he was sure. He reported this again when Karkaroff confirmed his own observations.

When Harry's name came out of the Goblet, back in October, they both immediately knew that Voldemort had managed to recruit yet another agent who was operating under cover at the school. At this point, it was obvious to both Dumbledore and Snape that Voldemort had another plot underway, and the two of were waiting for him to make his move all year. They both know something of how Voldemort's mind works, and that the "move" had not been made by the night of the Third task made it a pretty safe bet that the move would come that night.

Consequently, Snape was not one of the people who was patrolling the bounds of the maze. Dumbledore kept Snape by him, ready to react when Voldemort finally made his long-anticipated "move".

If the DMLE and the Real Moody did not have reason to already know of the Dark Mark's existence, the false Moody's taunt may well have been a clue that Snape and Dumbledore had not overlooked. But Dumbledore seems to have a weakness for capturing his opponents in the act. Rather than cornering him, confiscating his hip flask and waiting for the Polyjuice to wear off, the two of them may have been watching "Moody" from the time that it was made. But there is little expectation that Harry would have been aware of that. It is somewhat, more likely that the real Moody did know about the Dark mark, and the taunt was not reported to Dumbledore.

When Harry and Cedric disappeared from the maze, Snape and Dumbledore knew that this was it. Snape retrieved his mask and robe and got to the edge of the Hogwarts bounds to wait for the call to come. If it did not, then they would have a reprieve, but the likelihood of that was vanishingly small.

It took at least a half hour to 40 minutes for Pettigrew to have killed Cedric, set up the cauldron and performed the rebirthing ritual. There was ample time for Severus to ready himself for the call. When it came, he silently took his place in the circle with his fellows, probably cursing the certainty that he was now going to have to blow his cover with a rescue attempt to get Potter out of there.

Which was not required.

Snape was there. He saw Potter escape death at Voldemort's hand. He saw Potter overcome the Dark Lord's force of will in the battle between the wands and he saw Potter make his escape, taking Cedric's body with him. That odd look he was giving Harry over breakfast at the end of term is probably because he has finally seen Harry in action and is having to re-evaluate his impressions of the boy. This cautious re-evaluation seems to have carried over into the first half of OotP as well. Although there are other elements involved in this as well.

Once Harry made his escape, I suspect that Voldemort gave Snape the nod to follow and report back. I believe that Snape made his return with the aid of an unauthorized portkey (with which he had originally been intending to rescue Potter) which would have taken him to an unobserved point within Hogwarts where he could ditch the robe and mask and find Dumbledore to fill him in.

We did not actually see Snape until he, Minerva and Albus showed up in Moody's office to rescue Harry. It must have taken Moody at least 20-30 minutes to assist moving an injured boy all the way from the Quidditch pitch into the castle, up to his office and only then to have started his brag fest, filling Harry in on just what had been going down for the past school year, and his own part in it. Yes, the time was still tight, but it was sufficient for Snape to have returned, ditched the DE rig, flagged down Dumbledore and filled him in on the way to Moody's office. Part of Rowling's insistence upon pointing out to us the image of Snape staring at his own face in the foe glass may have been in recognition of the irony of his having just come from the DE's circle, on Voldemort's orders.

In that case it is easy enough to guess what the task was that Dumbledore had to ask whether Snape was prepared for during the scene in the Hospital Wing. Snape's task was to return to Voldemort and to report back on the events following Harry's return to Hogwarts.

Given that portkeys do work on Hogwarts grounds, Snape's return trip was probably accomplished by this method for the sake of speed. It would hardly be surprising for a teacher to have access to an unauthorized private portkey for the purpose of getting to and from the school in emergencies. Particularly given Dumbledore's willingness to create an unauthorized one when such is required. (Dumbledore's trip to and from the Ministry in PS/SS was probably also undertaken by means of a portkey.)

It has also occurred to me (and probably a lot of other people who are engaged in phrasing it differently) that there could be another rather interesting double-bluff going on regarding Snape's vicious behavior vis-a-vis the Hogwarts students.

It is not ALL an act, but, nevertheless, he IS acting. And it DOES serve a specific purpose. I also believe that he has Dumbledore's tacit go-ahead for it, although Dumbledore may not altogether approve of his methods.

What Snape is doing is to very deliberately, very conspicuously NOT distance himself from the past. In fact, he is rubbing the kids' noses in it. Given his basic temperament, and in his position as head of Slytherin House, the chances of his actually managing to live his House's somewhat mottled past down are vanishingly small to begin with. Despite the fact that he personally was never publicly accused, even if he behaved the perfect gent (which, with his disposition, would be a strain - he is not a nice man), he lived through the Voldemort years, he is the head of Slytherin's House, and he is "a deeply horrible person". There would be rumors flying about of an ex-DE background regardless of what he did. And it would take next to no effort to confirm those rumors for anyone who decided to really investigate. Karkaroff's hearing was not an open one, but I doubt the records were so tightly sealed that no one could get into them. There were too many witnesses. To the wizarding world, Severus Snape, a Slytherin of the most suspect generation is always going to be a reputed ex-Death Eater to somebody's point of view.

It also stands to reason that Albus took him on staff with the understanding that he would do something to discourage other young people from making the same kind of mistakes that he did.

Snape's a pragmatic Slytherin, not a social justice-seeking Gryffindor. And even if he is every bit as much a supporter of Dumbledore's goals as Dumbledore believes, he probably figures that the Slytherin kids with DE connections are already a lost cause. It isn't their own choices which are going to get exercised. Playing the wise and kindly councilor to dissuade them from taking that particular step isn't going to do anything but send a message back to their parents which will get him targeted for elimination. He might be able to dissuade the ones who might be allowed to refuse with some pointed comments that Voldemort doesn't want half-hearted followers. But that's about as far as he can get with the Slyths.

But, by god, he can make an impression on the students of the OTHER three houses. And the Slyths can unwittingly give him a hand by helping spread and support the rumors. He intends to send all of the brats a clear, unambiguous message. ("Play to your strengths".)

If they want to see a Death Eater, he will SHOW them a Death Eater.

And see how well they like it.

Every day of the week for seven years those kids are getting an up close and personal demonstration of just what a Death Eater is, with ALL the pettiness, spite, partiality, injustice, treachery, contempt and cruelty on full display.

You think you want to be a Death Eater someday? You want to have to work with people like me? You want to have to ASSOCIATE with people like me? DEPEND on people like me? (If this is the tame virus what must the actual disease be like?) Snape doesn't want the brats to like him. He wants them to LOATHE him. And more to the point, he wants them to REMEMBER him. And, by god, he is going to put on a show they can't forget.

And, maybe, just maybe, when some smooth-tongued Voldemort supporter comes around trying to recruit some promising young Gryff or 'Puff or 'Claw, maybe the impression will have been indelible enough to give them pause before being swept off their feet. And maybe they will think to pass the word about someone to watch out for. And, who knows, maybe by counter-example he can even reach a few of his Slyths.

Besides, it won't hurt the brats to learn to perform delicate work under pressure. They're going to meet other *******s out in the real world, too. Guaranteed.

So, with all these justifications in mind, he has effectively given himself a free ticket to play the ******* and act out his every natural frustration to the top of his bent. Right in their faces. He may even realize that he really is a bully - however well he may dress it up in fine linen (and I think he probably does dress it up in fine linen. He isn't all THAT self-aware). If he weren't a bully he probably wouldn't have been so quick to sign up with Voldemort in the first place.

Make no mistake. Severus Snape ENJOYS terrorizing adolescents. He LIKES tormenting young Longbottom. He looks forward to the opportunity to needle Potter - whom he honestly resents, and who can stand to be taken down a peg, in his opinion - and he was positively hugging himself with glee on the red-letter day that he actually managed to make Granger cry.

In short, Snape really does like his job.

He is having a ball. (The rest of the staff, who know what is going on, are scandalously amused by his antics, and Dumbledore trusts him.)

And Rowling is clearly having a ball writing him. And so are we in reading about him. And when somebody does such a good job of entertaining you, you just can't help but like them.

But then my other favorite "literary Harry" is Sir Harry Padget Flashman...

Written by Hikari_Nanase
Sep 21, 03 - 9:23 PM
Email: hikari1612@netzero.net (hikari1612@netzero.net)

Original posted at : Severus Snape Slytherin Society www.jareth.com (http://www.jareth.com/)

[Kaonashi]

That was a good read!

I always thought that Snape was a loner by nature and basically distrustful of people. If you've been made fun of all your life that kinda plays hell on the old social skills...even when you're all grown up and no longer in that situation.

[Liselle]

That was a good read!

I always thought that Snape was a loner by nature and basically distrustful of people. If you've been made fun of all your life that kinda plays hell on the old social skills...even when you're all grown up and no longer in that situation.
Oh I totally agree, James was rotten to Snape.....infront of everyone too...just to make himself look good. That kind of thing lets an indelible mark on people...a bit like Crouch saying to snape there are some marks that just don't come off.
Liselle

[Nycade]

I'm not sure that Snape really "chooses" to be unpopular. I mean, the books are about Harry, so we're sympathetic to Harry from the beginning. And since Snape doesn't sympathize with him, it gets most readers automatically disliking him.

Even though Snape definitely shows favoritism (and the opposite) to different students and different houses, I would guess that this doesn't have to do with choosing to be unpopular.

I think that no one is truly evil, because everyone does what they do because it's what they believe is right. So I would speculate that Snape is meaner to Harry and Gryffindors and nicer to Draco and the Slytherins because that's what he believes. I'm sure that he thinks that he's "on the side of the angels". Besides, I guess it depends on who you ask whether Snape is unpopular... what would Draco say?

[lupinlover]

Good point about who you ask whether Snape is popular or not, but the majority of Hogwarts seems to dislike him. Oh, by the way, when I say unpopular, I don't mean as opposed to being adored by everyone, I mean it like he just seems intent on making everyone miserable and not even trying to connect with anyone. Professor McGonagall isn't necessarily "popular" among her students, but no one really dislikes her.
Again, I love Snape's character, i'm just asking a question.

[Puffskein]

Snape's past may explain his unpleasantness, but I don't think we can say it's inevitable. Look at Harry himself, he had a terrible life being bullied and unloved until he was 11 and was still a pretty nice person.

I think Snape is rather like the protagonist of Simon & Garfunkel's song "I Am a Rock", who sits in a room with a load of books, having given up on love and friendship because it's caused him so much pain.

[Kaonashi]

Yes, but Harry cmae to Hogwarts and made really good friends. Snape, on the other had, was "clearly unpopular.' Maybe he joined up with the DE because he was young and those people were the only ones who were friendly to him. People do that sometimes.

[hesdead-dealwithit]

Yes, but Harry cmae to Hogwarts and made really good friends. Snape, on the other had, was "clearly unpopular.' Maybe he joined up with the DE because he was young and those people were the only ones who were friendly to him. People do that sometimes.
People do that all the time. In fact, that's the only reason I can possibly see for why Snape did join the DEs - to cure loneliness, to be accepted.

[rotsiepots]

Snape's past may explain his unpleasantness, but I don't think we can say it's inevitable. Look at Harry himself, he had a terrible life being bullied and unloved until he was 11 and was still a pretty nice person.

I think Snape is rather like the protagonist of Simon & Garfunkel's song "I Am a Rock", who sits in a room with a load of books, having given up on love and friendship because it's caused him so much pain.

I suppose the difference between Harry and Snape was that Harry could recognise the injustice of how he was being treated. He had great hopes for high school when, for the first time, he could get away from Dudley and his gang, so he went into Hogwarts feeling rather optimistic, I suppose.

Snape, on the other hand, may have just accepted that his life was never going to change, no matter how hard he tried. He was more defeatest in his attitude, which reflects in some of his choices later in life.

[NYCwitch920]

I don't think Snape "chooses" to be unpopular. I think it's just a result of his actions against others. He's not exactly what you would call social or extroverted. He doesn't know how to be nice! If he were a more considerate person, he would be more "accepted" among his peers and his own students. He's just evil.

[flibbertigibbet]

There's no doubt that if Snape opened himself up a bit and made a conscious effort to be nice, he would be a bit more popular. But that doesn't mean he necessarily chooses to be unpopular.

I think it's more that he has put up a number of shields in order to deal with all the emotional garbage that's been thrown at him.

(I'm going to make a few vague speculations here about what Snape's life has been like, based on the little tidbits we get in the book. Hopefully my point gets across even if the speculations aren't too accurate).

Think of him as a bit of a foil to Harry. Both of them were mistreated growing up, and both, as a result of this, became slightly withdrawn. But the similarity ends there. First of all, Snape appears to have had access to any number of dark arts materials (I remember someone mentioning that he knew more hexes before he came to school than any of them ever learned, or something to that effect). Possibly, he immersed himself in these to escape the family battles. Harry, of course, did not have access to anything of the sort.

Both of them ended up in Hogwarts. Harry was lucky - he met Ron, and he had the sense to reject Draco's offer of "friendship". Therefore, he was able to make the choice to go into Gryffindor and that's really set him on the right path for life.

Snape, on the other hand, obviously ended up in Slytherin, which doesn't exactly churn out the kindest wizards of all time. Chances are, he welcomed the chance to have friends (of any kind). His knowledge of the dark arts probably made him both appealing to his little gang, and frightening to those who did not know him well.

Add to that being constantly ridiculed (for something he had known all his life, no less), possibly confused as to whether he was doing the right thing, and generally growing up, which is always hard, and you don't end up with a very happy person. Even Harry wasn't a saint when faced with these dilemmas in OotP. Lucky he had friends to support him - I'd be willing to bet Snape hasn't had a true friend in his life.

I mean, are Death Eaters the type of people who will stand by you no matter what? No, they will manipulate you when you're needed, and dispose of you when you're not.

I don't think the fact that Snape is a "superb Occlumens" is a coincidence. He knows how to shut himself off from the outside world, how to protect himself from having to deal with his emotional scars.

Chances are, by the time anyone showed him any real friendship or understanding, his shield was so thick that he wouldn't risk breaking it.

And anyway, who would Ron accuse of being evil all the time if Snape was a nice guy? :D

[Wab]

I don't think Snape chooses to be unpopular, he merely chooses not to make the compromises to be popular, especially with his students. Although that is an admirable trait with most of the Hogwart's staff.
And Snape is clearly respected by his fellow staff members (with the possible exception of Lupin) including Hagrid.
However, the emnity between Harry (and later his friends) and Snape adds a different tone to the relationship and is emphasised because the books are seen from Harry's perspective.
Not that Harry contributes to harmonious relations. The ungrateful git has never thanked Snape for saving his life on more than one occasion.

[Liselle]

The ungrateful git has never thanked Snape for saving his life on more than one occasion.
here here, very true....he hasn't. but on the other hand can you imagine approaching Snape to thank him for saving your bacon?!
Snape is definitely well respected by his peers at Hogwarts, it has always struck me that Dumbledore insists that Harry call Snape Professor Snape. Its probably a highly evolved protective layer in snapes case that makes him a little dour and unapproachable......he is the real riddle of the book!

Liselle

[Werewolf_eyes]

Poor Snape ... I really don't blame him ^_^"

[NorthStar]

People do that all the time. In fact, that's the only reason I can possibly see for why Snape did join the DEs - to cure loneliness, to be accepted.

Snape was probably considered/considered himself an "outsider" before he came to Hogwarts. Taking some guidance from the wonderfully expressive article by Hikari_Nanase, I'd speculate that he was from a pure-blood family given little regard by the main coterie of pure-blood families such as Malfoy and Black - possibly due to the work they did, or having little money. I doubt he had many friends before Hogwarts. We know he knew a great deal of the Dark Arts, and more specifically curses when he arrived. I imagine him being either ignored or taunted by the children he knew before school, and possibly spent his time reading up on curses to make himself feel better - maybe planning to use the curses on those who had slighted him, never going through with it, but still making himself feel better with the knowledge that he knew more than they did. Either that, or he read up on, and practiced curses to be more accepted by these children.

When he arrived at school, he was friendless, unsure of himself, having no real way of knowing how to make friends, perhaps contemptous of Muggle-borns due to family ideas on them, miserable because of his parents. Placed in Slytherin because he had burning ambitions to be more than what his father was. Because he was known to have an interest in the Dark Arts, kids such as Rosier and Wilkes would have taken an interest in him. Maybe he didn't really subscribe to their extreme view on Muggles and Muggle-borns, but to an outsider, he saw a chance to get inside, be accepted. That's a powerful lure, especially when you're eleven and being popular and having friends is everything.

He joined Voldemort because his friends were doing so, and after being friends with them all these years, he'd almost convinced himself he was somewhere he belonged. Finally deciding to make peace with his conscience and do what he really believes is right, he joins Dumbledore and the Order.

Unfortunately, he's now right back to that first day at school again - friendless, unsure of himself. Perhaps he's mistrusted by many of the Order because he was once a Death Eater, perhaps he finds he cannot make friends because James and Sirius are so popular, and he can't, or won't make his peace with them - or they him.

He decides that the best way to live is for himself, keeping a kind of affection for children in his old House, taking pride in their achievements and ensuring they achieve the House Cup or the Quidditch title. After all, he asks himself, aren't I their Head of House? Aren't their achievements reflecting on me? He's known as a hard man, dislikes weaknesses in others because he doesn't feel weak any more - he doesn't need others approval now. Dislikes Harry and his friends because he can see in them where he'd have liked to have been at school.

He's not a nice person, but he only chooses to be that way because it is a kind of protection for himself. If he could see a way of becoming popular and well-liked, I think in his secret heart he'd do it, however without people skills learnt at a younger age, he cannot see how.

Anyhoo, that's my tuppence-worth.

[Barbara Kennedy]

Snape was probably considered/considered himself an "outsider" before he came to Hogwarts. Taking some guidance from the wonderfully expressive article by Hikari_Nanase, I'd speculate that he was from a pure-blood family given little regard by the main coterie of pure-blood families such as Malfoy and Black - possibly due to the work they did, or having little money. I doubt he had many friends before Hogwarts. We know he knew a great deal of the Dark Arts, and more specifically curses when he arrived. I imagine him being either ignored or taunted by the children he knew before school, and possibly spent his time reading up on curses to make himself feel better - maybe planning to use the curses on those who had slighted him, never going through with it, but still making himself feel better with the knowledge that he knew more than they did. Either that, or he read up on, and practiced curses to be more accepted by these children.

When he arrived at school, he was friendless, unsure of himself, having no real way of knowing how to make friends, perhaps contemptous of Muggle-borns due to family ideas on them, miserable because of his parents. Placed in Slytherin because he had burning ambitions to be more than what his father was. Because he was known to have an interest in the Dark Arts, kids such as Rosier and Wilkes would have taken an interest in him. Maybe he didn't really subscribe to their extreme view on Muggles and Muggle-borns, but to an outsider, he saw a chance to get inside, be accepted. That's a powerful lure, especially when you're eleven and being popular and having friends is everything.

He joined Voldemort because his friends were doing so, and after being friends with them all these years, he'd almost convinced himself he was somewhere he belonged. Finally deciding to make peace with his conscience and do what he really believes is right, he joins Dumbledore and the Order.

Unfortunately, he's now right back to that first day at school again - friendless, unsure of himself. Perhaps he's mistrusted by many of the Order because he was once a Death Eater, perhaps he finds he cannot make friends because James and Sirius are so popular, and he can't, or won't make his peace with them - or they him.

He decides that the best way to live is for himself, keeping a kind of affection for children in his old House, taking pride in their achievements and ensuring they achieve the House Cup or the Quidditch title. After all, he asks himself, aren't I their Head of House? Aren't their achievements reflecting on me? He's known as a hard man, dislikes weaknesses in others because he doesn't feel weak any more - he doesn't need others approval now. Dislikes Harry and his friends because he can see in them where he'd have liked to have been at school.

He's not a nice person, but he only chooses to be that way because it is a kind of protection for himself. If he could see a way of becoming popular and well-liked, I think in his secret heart he'd do it, however without people skills learnt at a younger age, he cannot see how.

Anyhoo, that's my tuppence-worth.

I agree with all this and part of the reason his pureblood family may not have been accepted readily into the local "high society" clique, well my theory for it anyway, is that the Snape family were immigrants from Bulgaria or some similar European country and possibly were not wealthy or whatever wealth they once had was lost during the Grindelwald reign of terror.

[[Pretty]_[Unicorn]]

I agree with whoever said that Snape can't all of a sudden be as peppy as Gilderoy Lochhart. He was a DE and as far as we know, Lucius thinks so too. So he can't be happy, he must be dark, silent, and angry. But i think he also chooses to be bad because of his past and being a DE definately affected him. Happiness just isn't cut out for him and I believe that he has a hard time being happy because he had a bad childhood and really was never happy. He had always had that gloomy face on.
Snape needs I think someone to open up to and reveal how he feels like how people do to a phsychiatrist and I think that he has opened up a little to DD and explained how he feels but he needs a good lie down to talk things over that are troubling him. He needs friends to communicate because we know that he is very independent. In OotP he wouldn't even sit down with the Order and I think Snape is a little shy around masses. But he chooses to be unpopular against HP because he desn't care what HP says he just wants revenge for what James supposedely did to Snape.

[Werewolf_eyes]

Snape? Shy? Bad childhood, I'll agree.. .

[Rose Hunter]

I don't know Snape's reasons, but I always choose to be unpopular to protect myself.

Don't let anyone get too close and they can't hurt you.

[Angora]

How much do I love the Hikari_Nanase article?

I wish there was an emoticon for a dignified smattering of applause. It gave me a lot to think about, and I'm on board with most of it... up until the part where he dresses up his motives for being mean. I don't think he even puts that much thought into it. Nor do I think he actually makes a special effort to be unpopular (though he may congradulate himself on it from time to time since popular=all things Potter, which are things he doesn't want to be or doesn't want to want to be).

I think he's still fairly popular with Lucius and some of the Slytherins... and maybe some of the Ravenclaws or something.

But I also don't think he's really into self-disclosure, which is something that you need to do if you want to form meaningful relationships with other people. But with people like Dumbledore, or Lucius (who was probably in school with him when they met - and when Snape was more transparant - and five years older, which at that age can give you some advantage), or even Voldemort, self-disclosure isn't really as necessary because they can figure it out on their own.

Anyway, I don't think he really feels insecure about being liked. I don't think he has a big plan to make himself disliked. I think he's careful about what he says, but I think the snark just comes naturally.

[Liselle]

Anyway, I don't think he really feels insecure about being liked. I don't think he has a big plan to make himself disliked. I think he's careful about what he says, but I think the snark just comes naturally.
I'm not sure, maybe he didn't at first but he now seems to get some sort of pleasure from being unpopluar as far as I can see, he likes being the baddy. I'd love to know more on Snape though, we don't know who his friends *maybe aquaintances would be better* were in school or if he had anything

As for Snape being popular with Lucius and some other slytherins first they don't know he is a double agent, and secondly I think it "suits" them to have eyes at Hogwarts in a relative position of power and authority. I'm sure that Snape realises this and plays along accordingly, its good not to rock the boat too much

Liselle

[Hood Teacher]

Snape is just so proud and well he's like that teacher who pushed us really hard but worked out in the end cause it made us smarter and when we got sometihng easy we crushed it

[lorna]

hikari makes some interesting points. I actually can wondered if Snape's family socioeconomic status wasn't some kind of trade (potions
would be a good one) and I even kicked around the idea Snape early life was living someplace in Knockturn Alley.
However I questions two points stated as if they are fact.
there is no evidence Snape was in the graveyard. No evidence he wasn't either. The only thing we do know is what Dumbledore said to
Snape before he left on his "assignment" "You know what I must ask
you to do." If it was catching up with LV it doesn't sound to me like
Snape had done it yet.
And where in OotP do we get the information that Snape was sent to Hogwarts BY LV prior to his downfall.
What we know for sure. Snape himself states he's been a teacher for 14 years. Harry is 15 now and his parents died when he was approximately 15 months old if Harry's birthday is still in July and his parents died Halloween the following year. So all you can get out of that is that Snape started teaching at Hogwarts when when Harry was
13 or so months old which is before LV downfall.(barely) Now if Snape went in as an LV spy and basically got caught there because LV fell OK
the small amount of time works
What works against is that it's not enough time for DD to turn Snape around, certainly not enough for Snape to earn the kind of trust DD has in him.
I could also argue that Snape had been spying for a while and the reason DD hired him was to give him some protection if LV ever caught on that Snape was spying on him. After all Hogwarts was one of the few safe places according to Hagrid.
But that's just a theory too. I have no evidence from the book to back me up either.
As to why Snape chooses to be unpopular. I don't think he chooses it exactly. He's not an approachable type personality to begin with, he's a stickler for the rules. Neither earns you popularity points. Snape is
also back in the environment of his worst humilations. He gets to
look out the windows and see the spot James hung him upside down
every day. I might add he now works with some of the same people
who let that happen-- where exactly were Hagrid, McGonagall, DD, Flitwick while some of this bullying was going on.
Could be a reason Snape is standoffish. DD excepted it seems, Snape may not see much reason to trust to many people at Hogwarts.
So I think there are elements of personality and choice.

[Discordia]

I agree. I think that Snape chose to be so standoffish and he chose to seclude himself. He's a very one person kind of guy. He's always had himself to look ater. He doesn't wear his heart on his sleeve and I think that's part of the reason that he's still alive today. HE's never had anyone but himself to worry about. I agree that working in a school that has left you with so bad memories does eat away at a person. Snape seems like one of those people that doesn't seem to care what people think of him. He's like the Grinch almost lol. I think that Snape probabl yliked someone at school but he was humiliated for it. That might have happened. I think that something terrible must have happened to him while he was young.

[fawkes5]

Snape is a paradox. Although he is a hateful person, there are at are at least 3 things going for him.

First, that he tried to save Harry's life. Considering we know how much he loathes Harry, Snape just wants him expelled, not dead. Reminds me of how Harry loathes Dudley but didn't think twice about saving him from the Dementors.

Second, he left the DEs to spy for DD. Anyone who changes his mind about joining Voldie's bunch and turns spy is a really brave person in my book. Bravery, a Gryffindor character right?

Third, DD trusts him. Although we know from book 5 that DD can make a mistake, he is far from gullible and is a very brilliant and powerful wizard. If Snape is good enough for DD, Snape is good enough for me.

Of course, this doesn't stop him from being a thoroughly slimy git.

[DrummerboyDT]

Snape just doesn't like to be boring. That's all. Snape is just misunderstood. Aren't we all? I know people like Snape and they seem real. Real people have real problems.

[ravenclaw_girl]

Hi!

I actually think that Professor Snape is a good teacher, he is maybe a little hard with Harry, but sometimes I think it´s Harry´s own fault, Sometimes Harry shouldn´t tell things that he think it´s right, he should only say things that Professor Snape wants to hear. :huh: Then I think it would be less problem than it would be.

[fawkes5]

I actually think that Professor Snape is a good teacher, he is maybe a little hard with Harry, but sometimes I think it´s Harry´s own fault, Sometimes Harry shouldn´t tell things that he think it´s right, he should only say things that Professor Snape wants to hear.

Yeah, Snape is a very good teacher. He is not such a bad guy either. He doesn't have a sparkling personality but I think he's on the right side.

[My_Blood_Is_Ink]

Just wanted to add something I noticed in book 3.

When Harry, Ron, and Hermione were knocked out, Snape physically *picked them up* before laying them carefully onto stretchers (and we all know how comfortable stretchers are). That done, he levitated the stretchers and brought them directly to the hospital wing.

Okay, the Fudge thing was interesting. Snape either covered for Harry or sincerely believed that Harry was under imperious. From Snape's POV, Sirius truly is an escaped murderer. In fact, a lot of professors felt the same way. I think it's slightly unfair that Snape looks worse for disliking Sirius simply because he's Snape. Nevertheless, it really doesn't help he has a grudge agaisnt Sirius.

On the note of him being a death eater and should have known Sirius' innocence, I'd like to beg to differ. Not all the death eaters knew one another, so I'm assuming that Snape did not know of Pettigrew until recently.

Back to the topic of carrying the children in book 3. In contrast, when Snape is unconscious, Snape is merely levitated and bonked on the head repetitive times by Sirius. Harry, Ron, and Hermione all knew that's such a terrible thing to do to a person, but they didn't say a word about it.

Coming down to it, this really touched me. As nasty as he can be, he'd take utmost care of you if you're injured or in trouble. Sure, he'd grumble about it, but Snape would still do it. I'd sooner have Snape babysit than Sirius (no offense Sirius fans, it's just that Sirius doesn't seem 'paranoid' enough to take care of a small child).

Also, yeah, I've been reading the messages on this board for a LONG time. I finally decided to participate. Hi all!

-MyBloodIsInk

[My_Blood_Is_Ink]

Oh yeah...

The reason why Snape lifting the children touched me was because, well... that's the first time I've ever seen him be gentle with anyone. Having him be gentle with not only Harry but with Ron and Hermione was just... wow.

Okay, you could say that he's a teacher, a human, and is morally obligated to do that. But again, he still had the option of having someone else do the dirty work for him or not do it at all.

[FirefightingMuggle]

I think one of the reasons that Snape is so nasty to Harry comes down to his role as a spy. Don't you think that if Snape started treating Harry better that Draco would run off and tell Daddy exactly what Snape was doing? Snape is required by his position to treat Slytherins, and children of DEs better, because he is thought to be a DE himself. Even when Voldemort was gone, he still had to keep up the appearance, because you can bet your socks, Lucius would be breathing down his neck if it looked like Snape had changed sides. It's an image thing. He has to look like a bad guy to pass as a bad guy.

I like Snape just for the fact that he is Snape. If he was any different, I doubt that he would be as interesting. If he wasn't as mean and nasty as what he is, he wouldn't be as interesting. He'd just be another teacher. His personality makes him interesting. I think that later on, we might find out something about Snape that changes the way that we see him, but for now I like him the way he is. If our opinion of him changes in the future, I'd chock it up to JKR developing her character by giving him a past.

[fawkes5]

Having a lousy personality doesn't automatically mean one is evil. I actually don't like the guy but he has a very interesting character. Clearly JK has great plans for our dear professor Snape. He is not evil at all and he is a very good professor even if he is hopelessly unfair to the Gryffindors.

[legallybrunette]

Hello all!

Just wanted to contribute my feeling on Snape really being good.

Snape is first presented as an evil character, but I feel that this what we are lead to believe via the perceptions that awe are given by the other characters. We really do not see anything directly from Snape's perspective. Snape is probably the most complex character in the book and one that we continually learned more about. By the time we realize that Snape is good because he is protecting Harry, it is a bit of a shock. Once I learned he was doing some good, I looked at his character differently in subsequent books.

There is no doubt that Snape has lead a difficult life. From the pensieve (in OotP and GoF) we see the abuse he saw/experienced as a child, his torment, and the utlimately we know that he was once a DE. Dumbledore must have serious reason to trust Snape, but I also feel that he could be hiding some type of secret for Snape (which I am attempting to write in a "novel").

I like how Snape does not seem to coddle Harry. He is the antithesis to the way other characters try to protect Harry. Harry has had a difficult life, no question, but at the same time, he does not need to be show millions of special courtesies. Snape does not treat Harry with "kid gloves", which is the way I feel he is treated by other characters in many instances. Granted Snape does have personal revenge against Harry's father as motivation, but it still gives Harry a dose of "real world" treatment. Not everyone is going to love you, you have to take the good and the bad.

Dumbledore trusts Snape. That trust alone is a major factor in showing the Snape is indeed a good character. Dumbledore is the only wizard that Voldemort ever feared. Dumbledore's power is strong and seems to know best how to deal with the situations. If he feels it is right to trust Snape, then there is a good reason (which hopefully will be revealed in the coming books) behind this trust.

Hope I haven't rambled too much for all of you. Snape is so complex that it is impossible not to be captivated, albeit positively or negatively, by his character.

Thanks for reading.

[ravenclaw_girl]

Yeah, Snape is a very good teacher. He is not such a bad guy either. He doesn't have a sparkling personality but I think he's on the right side.


hey, exactly what I think! I´m happy that you agree with me. I can admit that he hasn´t a sparkling personality, but otherwise he´s quite a good teacher anyway..

[Picko]

I find it hard to place Snape. There is enough evidence in the books to suggest he's a bad character but there's also overwhelming evidence that he's a good guy. Nevertheless I always find that I lean towards viewing Snape as the 'bad guy', when I realised he was bullied in his teens my first question was what did he do to make James say that his existence was why he deserved to be bullied instead of feeling sorry for him. I automatically think the worst of the man simply because an individual with the personality he has isn't naturally inclined to be the good guy and seeing as many of the actions we take in life are dependent upon our personalities it's difficult for me to think he is 'fully' a good guy.

[UselessCharmMaster]

I automatically think the worst of the man simply because an individual with the personality he has isn't naturally inclined to be the good guy and seeing as many of the actions we take in life are dependent upon our personalities it's difficult for me to think he is 'fully' a good guy.

Well, nobody is fully good. In HP, the "fully" good people seem to be only these who are nice to Harry. Snape is resentful, unjust, unpleasant, ugly, etc., he doesn't like Harry, but I hope you can be good enough even without liking Harry.

[Dagmar]

I think that Snape is on the side of good but his philosophy is "the ends justify the means". In other words he ends up getting the right thing done, not necesarily(sp?) coming at it from the best of intentions. Such as in OOTP when he tells ( I forget which one now) Crabbe? to loosen his grip on Neville. "Because it will be a lot of paperwork".
It's all about Snape. :evil:

[GryffindorGr]

I find it hard to place Snape. There is enough evidence in the books to suggest he's a bad character but there's also overwhelming evidence that he's a good guy. Nevertheless I always find that I lean towards viewing Snape as the 'bad guy', when I realised he was bullied in his teens my first question was what did he do to make James say that his existence was why he deserved to be bullied instead of feeling sorry for him. I automatically think the worst of the man simply because an individual with the personality he has isn't naturally inclined to be the good guy and seeing as many of the actions we take in life are dependent upon our personalities it's difficult for me to think he is 'fully' a good guy.
Picko, you took the words right out of my head. I used to be an advocate for Snape is a good guy theory in the beginning but when I re-read the series, I get the feeling, and especially the evidence in OotP; Snapes memories--it forms a bigger CLUE to his personal history.
Sure, JKR implied that there is some kind of redemptive pattern to Snape...BUT, does she mean that in the term that he is going to be redeemed or has been? Or does she imply that to determine another person who is on the way to redemption, and who is covered up in the same likeness of Snape himself?
It's either he can choose to do revenge big time, and do it with great patience, for the most intelligent people with evil on their minds have to have extreme patience--even if it takes a lifetime to get their vengeance. Or that he has been showing his redemptive side all along but cannot get his personality to change (him being so harsh and mean spirited to the students) but no matter how you cut it, sure, he may be a good teacher, but he's not a good person to others. He's certainly not very nice.

[nightingale]

I don't know what to think of Snape. Sometimes he's good, sometimes he's bad. He's not a favorite of mine, yet I would be sad if he died. Just now him crossing over to the good side simply because he knew that the Dark Lord was going to fall (After all, he is a Slytherin, serve no one but yourself.) was a thought the floated across my mind. But then I think of the little boy we saw in his memories. All I can say is, he is what he is, made by circumstance, whatever he is.

[ravenclaw_girl]

hiya!*
Yeah, I think you´re right! Everybody who have had a life like little Snape, became a little like Snape. We must admit that James and his friends weren´t so nice to him when they were young. I´m quite happy, because Lupin didn´t act like James, but he didn´t do anything about it, so that´s not so nice either.

But anyway, I still think he´s quite a good teacher! Harry just hasen´t luck,- he is James son...but yeah sometimes Snape can be really nasty!!!!

[fawkes5]

I automatically think the worst of the man simply because an individual with the personality he has isn't naturally inclined to be the good guy and seeing as many of the actions we take in life are dependent upon our personalities it's difficult for me to think he is 'fully' a good guy.

You may be right that someone with his personality is not inclined to be the 'good guy' but it doesn't necessarily mean he is a bad guy. We have to remember that things are not black and white.

[tyro]

people have to remember that not everyone who comes out of slytherin is evil. They are simply cunning, secretive and extremely secretive. For Snape, just look what he tells Harry during his Occ. lessons, that peopel who wear their hearts on their sleeves and cannot control their emotions are weak people. Weak in one respect, but with Snape, who is undoubtedly one of the greatest characters, he has a motive behind everything, and he is very careful what he shows to people. Like the Fight and Flight scene where Umbridge catches Potter, and she beckons Snape. I believe that in every scene where Snape seems bad he really has good intentions at heart, it's just he shows them in a different way.

[SnapesHouseElf]

I think Snape will keep his ambiguity until the end. He's the character that will help us realise we must look beyond appearances and that past grudges must be forgotten when fighting a present-day enemy.

There is good in Snape, and there has been bad in him too. He's a character to be redeemed, but I don't think he'll die. He's not the hero type, since he's a true Slytherin. One thing I can imagine is Snape being in trouble due to Harry's lack of trust in him.

[Hatake Kakashi]

Severus is one of my favorite characters from Harry Potter. I like the fact that he can be so cold and downright heartless.

But then, he HAS shown a hint of kindness towards Harry. Dumbledore did say, in OotP, that, "Professor Snape intended to search the forest for you (Harry)." Must've been pretty worried, eh? And before that, he said, "He (Snape) grew worried when you (Harry) did not return from the forest."

Then again, he could just be a hypocrite but I don't want to think of him like that.

[aconite]

I don't think that was kindness towards Harry that Snape was showing; he was showing that deep down he does have a sense of morals (at least now that he's not a loyal DE anymore). He might not like Harry, he might not even be nice to him personally, but it seems Snape generally does what seems to him to be the right thing. He protects Harry from Quirrell by refereeing that Quidditch match, knowing full well that his fellow teachers will look down on him because it appears he's trying to fix the match, because it's the honorable thing to do. I also think he goes to the Shrieking Shack because he really believes Black and Lupin are horrible people (even though he must know Black wasn't really a DE) and wants to keep them away from the kids.

The bottom line is ethics are never black and white, and it's still possible to be a "good guy" even if you're not a nice, caring, huggable teddy bear of a person.

[Serpentine]

I also think he goes to the Shrieking Shack because he really believes Black and Lupin are horrible people (even though he must know Black wasn't really a DE) and wants to keep them away from the kids.

The bottom line is ethics are never black and white, and it's still possible to be a "good guy" even if you're not a nice, caring, huggable teddy bear of a person.

Nicely worded, aconite (like the name!). Snape certainly isn't a teddy bear. :lol: And in real life persons aren't fully black or white either, but different shades of grey. Grey may not be a pretty colour, but it's a realistic one - and in that view Snape is quite a "grey" character. Others like James and Sirius are now heading that way, but he was there from the very beginning. JKR did a great job there. :tu:

As for your first statement though that he must have known that Sirius was no DE, I have to disagree. The Death Eaters wear masks at their meetings, and Snape's comment about James, and Harry echoing him, in the Shrieking Shack ("too arrogant to believe he could be mistaken in Black") sounds to me like Snape really believed Sirius to have been the traitorous Secret Keeper. Just like McGonagall, Fudge and Hagrid did at the Three Broomsticks, by the way. The general perception at the time seems to have been that Sirius had been - and still was - the "right hand" of Lord Thingy, the traitorous Secret Keeper of the Potters, and the murderer of Wormtail. He had even been sentenced to Azkaban for it, and when he got loose everybody thought he was trying to kill Harry. Including Snape, IMHO.

When Snape caught Harry sneaking to Hogsmeade with the Map, he yelled at him and tried to make him aware of the precautions done especially for his protection, and of the risks in sneaking off with a murderer around to kill him (to which Harry didn't pay heed, of course). And part of his behaviour towards Lupin at the same incident may be explained by Snape's admission in the Shrieking Shack that in his opinion Lupin was Sirius's accomplice, trying to help him get hold of Harry. We know now that this was not true, but even Harry and his friends learned that only in the Shack when Scabbers proved to be Wormtail. Snape was unconscious at that time, and Wormtail fled before his recovery, so he went on believing Sirius a murderer. True, he also had his personal issues with Sirius, but I feel that he wouldn't have delivered Sirius to Fudge if he had known him to be innocent.