Was there a fifth founder?

[Selene Sedai]

Just that, was there a fifth founder, of Hogwarts? Now, this may seem far fetched, but... anythings possible!

The Sorting Hats says in its songs that there were only four founders and the legand had the number four as well, but something leads me to beleive that there was one more, and that the fifth founder wasn't a wizard! If i didn't know better i'd say it was a centaur and that the reason the centaur got booted out of the legand after having helped create the school, is because he wanted the school to be united and not split into houses! Also, think, how come there is a room that can be turned into a replica of the centaurs habitat, inside of Hogwarts? I am refering, of course, to the room where Firenze now teaches divination.

Any thoughts on this?

One more thing, if there was a fifth founder, could he/she be the Half-Blood Prince? If it was the Half-Blood Prince, it would essentially have to be a he, because a prince is male.

What do you think?

[Clareious]

Well, that's a theory I have never thought of!

but something leads me to beleive that there was one more, and that the fifth founder wasn't a wizard!

You don't really specify what the something is... could you elaborate, please?

Also, think, how come there is a room that can be turned into a replica of the centaurs habitat, inside of Hogwarts? I am refering, of course, to the room where Firenze now teaches divination.

I always just assumed that Dumbledore has arranged this for Firenze, and I think I remember reading something to that effect... I'm not 100% sure, though.

[emily105]

I don't know. If there was a fifth founder, then why haven't we heard about them yet?!?! And if there was a fifth founder, then there can be a possibility that they were a half-blood, because Slytherin's obsession with pure-bloods would have to start from somewhere and not just out of the blue, you know. I never thought about there being a fifth founder. And in regards to the room changing into a centaurs habitat, maybe Dumbledore wanted Firenze to feel like he was at home in the forest or something. Besides, in my opinion, it does make some sense to have a room that has the solar system laid out like the original thing rather than Trelawny's million scarves and large fireplace. That is about all that I can think of right now.

[Selene Sedai]

Clareiouse: I'm not sure exactly what it is, just that the thoery fits with the entire message and plot of the series. It would also explain why Centaurs hate Wizards soo much. They are treated as lesser beings, but perhaps something that happened between the founders emflamed the dislike for Wizards among the Centaurs? After all, the news of a new Wizarding school being built would probably travel far and through many races...

Also, the other four founders would not want it to get out that there was a fifth, and then the other reason he hasn't been mentioned is because its not a wizard, and we have just started getting in touch with Centaurs... a.k.a, Firenze becoming a teacher at Hogwarts and being in touch with its students... and if Dumbledore knew about the fifth founder, he probably wouldn't think it necesary to inform others of it. he might even think that it would start a little tiff because some students would not want to think that the school was also founded by a half-blood. (note: Umbridge calls the centaurs "filthy half-breeds" or something on the lines of that during Ootp, witch can also be classified as half-blood. I think...)

[nautiestmonk]

I have no problem beleiving there could have been a fifth founder, as PM said it was started by the four greatest witches and wizards of the time. It leaves it open to thought.


As for it being a centaur? Why is the only question I would ask? Besides their ability to read the stars what else would they offer? As we learn from HAgrid they just speak in random drawn out thoughts not really ever giving a definative answer. Well Firenze may not, but the rest are jsut ruddy star gazers.

How strange must it be to get a letter in the mail from a place you've never heard of telling you your son or daughter has magical powers and that you want them to leave home at 11 to go to this school?

A muggle that knew of the secret world would somewhat make sense

[Selene Sedai]

Dumbledore has been wanting to get rid of Divination for ages, but hasn't yet done it... why then is there astronomy and divination tought at Hogwarts? I don't think any of the four founders had a speceality in star gazing, but Centaurs do... Also, who was the divination teacher before Trelawney!? I don't know if he/she has been mentioned in the books... but its not impossible that he or she was a Centaur....

Also, the fact that Centaurs are extremely annoying is probably one of the reasons that the fifth founder (centaur) was booted off in the first place! And maybe thats why Salazar despises half-breeds and half-bloods so much, he couldn't stand the fifth founder/centaur and lost his temper....and left the school.... but he left a chamber with basaliscs that could later rid the school of half-bloods or half-breeds and achieve Salazars revenge....

[Credo Buffa]

It's an interesting idea to think that there could have been a non-wizard hand in the creation of Hogwarts. . . but I just really don't see any evidence for it. Not that there would need to be, of course, but I feel like it that were going to be something significant (because the only reason I could see it happening is if it were something really significant. . . otherwise it would just be like "Oh, a fifth founder, that's nice"), then JKR wouldn't have hammered it into our minds so many times that Hogwarts had four founders. She would have left it more ambiguous as to exactly how the founding of Hogwarts worked. As it is, we seem to have a relatively complete history, and at least in my mind, adding anything to it seems sort of gratuitous.

[anabel]

I don't think turning a classroom into a centaur's natural habitat is incredibly difficult, at least not for Dumbledore. Remember that Fred and George managed to turn a corridor into a swamp!

[Selene Sedai]

ah, but now that we are all convinced there are only four founders, it would be an unexpected twist to actually have a fifth one.. and we all know that Jo loves twists...

Also, read my last post to see more support for this theory...

is there anything in the books that disproves this? Please inform me!

[SeekerLynch]

Why would a centaur help wizards found a school? Why would no one remember even if there were? What's with the whole "booting out of the legend" idea? A, the four founders couldn't track down everyone who remembered the centaur or every place where he's written about; B, They wouldn't kick him out because he didn't want the school to be divided into houses, because it wasn't divided. They had they’re houses, but they were still united (like the states in the U.S.) until Slytherin left.

[VanMastaIteHab]

It really does make sense. My only problem with it is that in the 2nd book, it really does emphasise that one of the FOUR founders disbanded from the rest and made the chamber of secrets. I don't think JK would have put it into play that much and then change it. It would be an excellent twist, but almost too out there for JK. If you emphasised something as much as she did, it just wouldn't make sense to change it near the end of the series.

[Barbara Kennedy]

ah, but now that we are all convinced there are only four founders, it would be an unexpected twist to actually have a fifth one.. and we all know that Jo loves twists...

Also, read my last post to see more support for this theory...

is there anything in the books that disproves this? Please inform me!
I'm more interested in what you have to support this theory.

I could see there being a fifth person involved in getting the school built, a Patron, if you will, but why discount the facts we have been given in the books without a very good reason?
It is YOUR theory, show us your supporting facts and canon.

Here are some reference threads.

The Hogwarts Founders (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=30404)
Significance of the house animals? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=5362)
Hogwarts Houses - symbolism (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=28098)
The Four Houses – What are they for? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=31152)

[Selene Sedai]

because it ties in the whole mudblood, half-blood, and half-breed hatred, and sort of gives us a starting point for it, in a way. Also, didn't Jkrowling say in an interview with Steve Kloves, that the whole mudblood pureblood hatred thing was very important to the entire plot of the series? I believe the interview was either in the dvd of the PS or Cos. Jo also said in the same interview that it is brought back up/a theme in book six, or something like that, and this would be a way to add it in while giving backround information as well. it would bring in the issue of hatred and how the wizarding world must be together in the battle against voldemort and as a fellow writer, it makes a lot of sence. It could lead to the tie up of a fair amount of notts.

Barbara: thanks for the threads! i'll be sure to check them out and perhaps they will aid in more support for my theory.

Any other opinions on this?

[Barbara Kennedy]

because it ties in the whole mudblood, half-blood, and half-breed hatred, and sort of gives us a starting point for it, in a way. Also, didn't Jkrowling say in an interview with Steve Kloves, that the whole mudblood pureblood hatred thing was very important to the entire plot of the series? I believe the interview was either in the dvd of the PS or Cos. Jo also said in the same interview that it is brought back up/a theme in book six, or something like that, and this would be a way to add it in while giving backround information as well. it would bring in the issue of hatred and how the wizarding world must be together in the battle against voldemort and as a fellow writer, it makes a lot of sence. It could lead to the tie up of a fair amount of notts.
(You're welcome! :), anytime.)
I'm sorry, but I still don't see how that indicates a fifth Founder?
There has already been established that there was a fair amount of hostility within the group of four founders at one time, because Salazar Slytherin had elitist ideas and broke away from the others because of it.

[petruchio]

OK, I understand why you think it would be plausible, but there's no supporting evidence to suggest it. I mean, simply thinking that it could have happened doesn't necessarily mean it did. Besides, there's a lot of empirical evidence to suggest otherwise. Dumbledore bears no animus toward centaurs, so why would he want to keep it a secret? Especially considering that there is now a centaur on the staff.

[Sunfish McCaul]

I laughed when I read your post, Selene, because I'm writing a fan-fic centred on this very idea. My fifth founder was originally going to be a centaur, too.
I think it would be an excellent idea for it to be incorporated in the actual books, but I'd be greatly surprised at the same time. It does seem a tad implausible, but so did Sirus' sudden appearance in PoA, as well as many other things in the series.

[SeekerLynch]

This doesn't make sense! What evidence is there to support this theory?

[panda_bay_113]

I don't know. If there was a fifth founder, then why haven't we heard about them yet?!?! And if there was a fifth founder, then there can be a possibility that they were a half-blood, because Slytherin's obsession with pure-bloods would have to start from somewhere and not just out of the blue, you know. I never thought about there being a fifth founder.


I totally agree. Like, that was the words right out of my mouth!

[Selene Sedai]

I laughed when I read your post, Selene, because I'm writing a fan-fic centred on this very idea. My fifth founder was originally going to be a centaur, too.
I think it would be an excellent idea for it to be incorporated in the actual books, but I'd be greatly surprised at the same time. It does seem a tad implausible, but so did Sirus' sudden appearance in PoA, as well as many other things in the series.

Actually, i think i remember reading your fanfic and it is partly were i got the idea from..(i also remember it being a good read! It is called The Dark Peace if anyone wants reference or wishes to read it. i certainly reccomend it!) and from other things in the books as well... :)

Also, dumbledore wouldn't want it to get out becuase of the reaction of the students at Hogwarts. Think of what the purebloods and slytherins might say! The knowledge of a fifth founder being a half-breed/half-blood could in princible, start a riot in the school, especially after what happened in Cos.

[VanMastaIteHab]

Just giving you some extra support for your theory.(hope I'm not insulting you or anything) I believe it could be true. Jk said on her site that something he discovered in book 2 would foreshadow something that harry discovers in book 6.(I believe those were her words) Harry does discover that centaurs don't exactly like humans very much. This could be the discovery he made.(This might have been in book 1. I forgot the minor details of the earlier books)

[petruchio]

Also, dumbledore wouldn't want it to get out becuase of the reaction of the students at Hogwarts. Think of what the purebloods and slytherins might say! The knowledge of a fifth founder being a half-breed/half-blood could in princible, start a riot in the school, especially after what happened in Cos.

Wait a minute... are you saying that a centaur as a founder is any different than taking one on as a professor? If that logic parses, they should have had a riot at the beginning of OotP! Sorry, but I can't agree with this theory at all; there just isn't enough evidence to support it. I imagine, though, that it would make for good fan fic.

[Selene Sedai]

Just giving you some extra support for your theory.(hope I'm not insulting you or anything) I believe it could be true. Jk said on her site that something he discovered in book 2 would foreshadow something that harry discovers in book 6.(I believe those were her words) Harry does discover that centaurs don't exactly like humans very much. This could be the discovery he made.(This might have been in book 1. I forgot the minor details of the earlier books)
don't worry, i'm not offended! And good point. :)

Also, i assume the Slytherins are already mad that Firenze is a teacher, but the fun of getting to be on the Quisitorial Squad and/or having Umbridge as High Inquisitor probably blinded them to the fact that they are being taught by a half-breed. I'm guessing we'll hear them complain about it in book six. Oh and another thing, Firenze only got appointed near to the very end of the term.

[ComicBookWorm]

It's always interesting to suggest things like this, but since everyone insists there were four founders, I tend to accept that. A founder can't get booted out of a legend, because the story of the founders is history not legend. Also, half-bloods and half-breeds are not the same thing. Centaurs aren't half-bloods. They aren't even half-breeds. Eww, that implies humans and horses mating. JKR isn't going to introduce bestiality to the books.
Just giving you some extra support for your theory.(hope I'm not insulting you or anything) I believe it could be true. Jk said on her site that something he discovered in book 2 would foreshadow something that harry discovers in book 6.(I believe those were her words) Harry does discover that centaurs don't exactly like humans very much. This could be the discovery he made.(This might have been in book 1. I forgot the minor details of the earlier books)
Harry discovers that in SS/PS not CoS.

[VanMastaIteHab]

[/QUOTE]Harry discovers that in SS/PS not CoS.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I kinda thought so, but still.

[petruchio]

One more thing: are centaurs halfbreeds? I always thought they were creatures who existed separate from humans, but were an entirely different species. That's like saying zebras are half-breed horses, because they look alike. They aren't; they are an independent species. True, they can interbreed WITH horses, but a horse ain't a donkey, and a donkey ain't a zebra. See the difference?

[ComicBookWorm]

One more thing: are centaurs halfbreeds? I always thought they were creatures who existed separate from humans, but were an entirely different species. That's like saying zebras are half-breed horses, because they look alike. They aren't; they are an independent species. True, they can interbreed WITH horses, but a horse ain't a donkey, and a donkey ain't a zebra. See the difference?
Well it's worse since the idea of horses and zebras breeding is nowhere as yucky as humans and horses.

[Selene Sedai]

On Jkrowlings official site, jkrowling.com, in the faq section:

The Question: "Why are some people in the Wizarding World (e.g., Harry) called "half-blood' even though both their parents are magical?"

In the answer: "The expressions 'pure-blood', 'half-blood', and 'Muggle-born' have been coined by people to whom these distinctions matter, and express their originators' prejudices..."

This implies that even non wizard creatures in the wizarding world that do not have pure wizard ancestors are considered "half-bloods" by the wizards that discriminate against them. Also, there is no other word for non wizard creatures, besides animals, of course.

Also, Ootp page 755 american version, "Filthy half-breeds!" she screamed, her hands still tight over her head. "Beasts! Uncontrolled animals!" - Umbridge, when she is being attacked by Centaurs after Hermione lead her and Harry into the Forest.

They are called half-breeds and most likely half-blood as well.

[VanMastaIteHab]

One more thing: are centaurs halfbreeds? I always thought they were creatures who existed separate from humans, but were an entirely different species. That's like saying zebras are half-breed horses, because they look alike. They aren't; they are an independent species. True, they can interbreed WITH horses, but a horse ain't a donkey, and a donkey ain't a zebra. See the difference?

Yeah, that's an interesting question. The only way I knew the answer was by reading "Fantastic Beasts and Where to find them". In there, centaurs are listed as an entirely different creature, so I'm pretty sure by writing this, Jk means that they are a different species than anything else(like a zebra compared to horse), and are not a half-breed.

[Selene Sedai]

read my last post...

[ComicBookWorm]

On Jkrowlings official site, jkrowling.com, in the faq section:

The Question: "Why are some people in the Wizarding World (e.g., Harry) called "half-blood' even though both their parents are magical?"

In the answer: "The expressions 'pure-blood', 'half-blood', and 'Muggle-born' have been coined by people to whom these distinctions matter, and express their originators' prejudices..."

This implies that even non wizard creatures in the wizarding world that do not have pure wizard ancestors are considered "half-bloods" by the wizards that discriminate against them. Also, there is no other word for non wizard creatures, besides animals, of course.

Also, Ootp page 755 american version, "Filthy half-breeds!" she screamed, her hands still tight over he head. "Beasts! Uncontrolled animals!" - Umbridge, when she is being attacked by Centaurs after Hermione lead her and Harry into the Forest.

They are called half-breeds and most likely half-blood as well.
That's just Umbridge calling them half-breeds. I don't consider her an authority on things. You just used a quote about humans when you quoted JKR's half-blood statement. She didn't use the word half-breed to refer to half-bloods. I'm not posting here anymore. There is no canon to support this idea about the founders. And I can assure you that JKR is not going to introduce bestiality to the books.

[petruchio]

All right, Umbridge calls them "half-breeds." Umbridge is probably the most ignorant character JKR has ever written (after all, all prejudices are born of ignorance) and we can pretty much discount this as an interjection due to panic on Umbridge's part. I still think you can't call them half-bloods or, for that matter, half-breeds. It's an entirely different species.

And besides, NOBODY HAS GIVEN ANY EVIDENCE OF A FIFTH FOUNDER!!!!!

Give it a rest, willya?

[Selene Sedai]

how can you be so sure, you are not JKR herself...

Also, aren't Centaurs half man and half hourse, so essentually they are half-breeds!

and yes there is no hard evidence, but as we havn't read the sixth book, no one can say for sure.

[ComicBookWorm]

how can you be so sure, you are not JKR herself...

Also, aren't Centaurs half man and half hourse, so essentually they are half-breeds!
Only if they breed together.

Show us even the smallest proof that there was a fifth founder. Show us a hint, a clue, an indication.

[LadyRivendell]

It's interesting to think that there may be a 5th founder, but i think the idea is almost too far fetched....we would have heard about it by now.

[VanMastaIteHab]

All right, Umbridge calls them "half-breeds." Umbridge is probably the most ignorant character JKR has ever written (after all, all prejudices are born of ignorance) and we can pretty much discount this as an interjection due to panic on Umbridge's part. I still think you can't call them half-bloods or, for that matter, half-breeds. It's an entirely different species.

And besides, NOBODY HAS GIVEN ANY EVIDENCE OF A FIFTH FOUNDER!!!!!

Give it a rest, willya?

We have. Read the thread. Its not rock hard evidence, but if thats what you want then you dont know jk very well.

[petruchio]

how can you be so sure, you are not JKR herself...

Also, aren't Centaurs half man and half hourse, so essentually they are half-breeds!

and yes there is no hard evidence, but as we havn't read the sixth book, no one can say for sure.
How can I be so sure? You must be joking... again, I repeat my assertion that there is no evidence to support a theory that there was a fifth founder. It's not like anyone has filled this forum with examples from the books implying that the founding of Hogwarts was any different from the way it was described in CoS. They haven't for good reason: THERE IS NO EVIDENCE.

[Selene Sedai]

Only if they breed together.

Show us even the smallest proof that there was a fifth founder. Show us a hint, a clue, an indication.
what do you mean only if they bread together? In greek mithology the Centaur is a half man and half hourse creature and therefore is a half-breed.

well, lets just ask, what evidence is there against this theory? It would advance the plot and it would lead to issues of prejudice and that in turn would become a problem in defeating voldemort and his death eaters. In prinicble Voldemort could be defeated in book six, but then there is suppossed to be another book so there needs to be something that stalls it!

[petruchio]

what do you mean only if they bread together? In greek mithology the Centaur is a half man and half hourse creature and therefore is a half-breed.

well, lets just ask, what evidence is there against this theory? It would advance the plot and it would lead to issues of prejudice and that in turn would become a problem in defeating voldemort and his death eaters. In prinicble Voldemort could be defeated in book six, but then there is suppossed to be another book so there needs to be something that stalls it!

And what evidence is there against the theory that Harry is the love child of Albus Dumbledore and Minerva McGonagall? None, except that it's just plain dumb. And I taught mythology for two years, and so understand implicitly what a centaur is. The Greeks had a lot of odd couplings with regard to "half-man, half-whatever." They were usually implied to have been created by the Gods as a response to some type of misdoings on the part of their human charges. They were intended as cautionary tales to Pagan worshippers who were bent on not following cultural rules.

[ComicBookWorm]

We have. Read the thread. Its not rock hard evidence, but if thats what you want then you dont know jk very well.
That isn't proof. If you have some canon please provide it. I suspect a lot of the posters know JKR very well indeed. We don't even have a hint about a fifth founder. And the Centaurs are a separate species of being according to Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them. So that is canon against the half-breed idea.

[VanMastaIteHab]

what do you mean only if they bread together? In greek mithology the Centaur is a half man and half hourse creature and therefore is a half-breed.

well, lets just ask, what evidence is there against this theory? It would advance the plot and it would lead to issues of prejudice and that in turn would become a problem in defeating voldemort and his death eaters. In prinicble Voldemort could be defeated in book six, but then there is suppossed to be another book so there needs to be something that stalls it!

I'm still on your side with this theory, but Voldemort could have been defeated in book 1 if jk wanted him to. It just wouldn't have been the successful, great series it is today. We are all looking foward to some, big voldemort finale in book 7. I think most of us were looking foward to that since we learned there would be 7 years at hogwarts.

[ComicBookWorm]

what do you mean only if they bread together? In greek mithology the Centaur is a half man and half hourse creature and therefore is a half-breed.

well, lets just ask, what evidence is there against this theory? It would advance the plot and it would lead to issues of prejudice and that in turn would become a problem in defeating voldemort and his death eaters. In prinicble Voldemort could be defeated in book six, but then there is suppossed to be another book so there needs to be something that stalls it!
A half-breed implies that two breeds actually breed together. There can be a lot of reasons for a seventh book besides centaurs being half-breeds.

I'm still waiting for the evidence of a fifth founder.

[Selene Sedai]

The hint lies within the entire theme of the sieries. The "half-breed' and "half-blood" hatred is a hint that something more will happen that involves that in future books! It was only introduced in Cos and kept going throughout the series but it still needs its big revelation, like the polyjuice potion. It was introduced in Cos, and then its revelation came in Gof, where it had a part in the main plotline of the series.

[Wep]

If there is a fifth founder, why isn't there a fifth house? And why would it be kept a secret? I mean what is to be gained from that. I think you could be clutching at straws here.

And what evidence is there against the theory that Harry is the love child of Albus Dumbledore and Minerva McGonagall? None, except that it's just plain dumb.

:rotfl: An Albus/McGonagall love child...now that would be interesting :D

[petruchio]

The hint lies within the entire theme of the sieries. The "half-breed' and "half-blood" hatred is a hint that something more will happen that involves that in future books!
Well, gee. I'm really glad you cleared that up for me. And since centaurs are the only half-breeds and/or half-bloods in the series, they MUST be what the title implies! Of course! Why wasn't this evident to me as soon as the title was released? Of COURSE the half-blood prince is a centaur!

I'm sure you have canon to back this up, right?

Oh, and it's "series."

[ComicBookWorm]

The hint lies within the entire theme of the sieries. The "half-breed' and "half-blood" hatred is a hint that something more will happen that involves that in future books!
But she's already dealing with that with the purebloods, half-bloods, muggleborn wizards. It doesn't add anything to the conflict. We already know that there was a rift between Slytherin and Gryffindor about muggleborns.
The hint lies within the entire theme of the sieries. The "half-breed' and "half-blood" hatred is a hint that something more will happen that involves that in future books! It was only introduced in Cos and kept going throughout the series but it still needs its big revelation, like the polyjuice potion. It was introduced in Cos, and then its revelation came in Gof, where it had a part in the main plotline of the series.
She's been addressing the wizarding bigotry in all the books since CoS.

[Selene Sedai]

sorry i'v not been very precise, but remeber that it was also surprising that we met Harry's godfather in Poa, and there was no hard evidence to support that theory either. The only thing that supported it was that it made a lot of sence. Think, we learn that Harry's parents are dead and were killed by Voldemort, and in Cos, Voldemort tries to persuade Harry to join him and bring back his parents, and then we meet Siruis who happens to be Harry's godfather. I'm not saying its obviouse, but that it would fit well into the story and could tie up a lot of loose ends, like the statue of magical brethren for example, and the whole prejudice against magical creatures that aren't wizards, like Dobby.

And yes she had been adressing it since Cos, but nothings really happend with it! Also, this all came about as a result of the first war, so it make sence that it would be brought up again during the second war.

[Wep]

But she's already dealing with that with the purebloods, half-bloods, muggleborn wizards. It doesn't add anything to the conflict. We already know that there was a rift between Slytherin and Gryffindor about muggleborns. So what else is knew?


She's been addressing the wizarding bigotry that in all the books since CoS.

I agree, that is a large part of the series, so of course it is going to reoccur in the future books. But what has this got to do with the fifth founder?

[petruchio]

sorry i'v not been very precise, but remeber that it was also surprising that we met Harry's godfather in Poa, and there was no hard evidence to support that theory either. The only thing that supported it was that it made a lot of sence. Think, we learn that Harry's parents are dead and were killed by Voldemort, and in Cos, Voldemort tries to persuade Harry to join him and bring back his parents, and then we meet Siruis who happens to be Harry's godfather. I'm not saying its obviouse, but that it would fit well into the story and could tie up a lot of loose ends, like the statue of magical brethren for example, and the whole prejudice against magical creatures that aren't wizards, like Dobby.
And that's the problem. This theory just doesn't make sense. There is a method of deduction which is called "Occam's Razor." Simply put, Occam's Razor says that all things being equal, the simplest theory or explanation is probably the one that ends up being the truth. This theorem simply doesn't stand up to the razor.

[ComicBookWorm]

And yes she had been adressing it since Cos, but nothings really happend with it! Also, this all came about as a result of the first war, so it make sence that it would be brought up again during the second war.
Of course it's been addressed, it's all anyone in the books talks about. It's why the DE's are all purebloods.

[sirius_gerl]

i dont think there was a fifth founder, or a) we would have already found out about it, b) there would have been 5 houses c) Hermione would have already informed everyone of 5 founders in the 2nd book

[VanMastaIteHab]

Ok, can you guys come up with a "canon" on why this theory cant happen? Exactly! If you can, I'll give up. But still, this is a THEORY!! The word, THEORY means something someone THINKS something could POSSIBLY happen. This does not mean it WILL happen. For all we know, she could be planning this. For all we know, she might be doing the opposite of this. That is why this is a THEORY.

[Selene Sedai]

There was no hard evidence for Siruis' appearance in Poa, to repeat what VanMastaIteHab said.

Also, the evidence lies withing the theme. The prejudice theme. Its not "rock hard" but its still there and its likely to be brought up again. The whole prejudice thing was a result of the first war so it makes sence that it will be brought up agian during the second war. It was introduced in Cos and will most likely show up again.

Having a founder of Hogwarts being a half-breed (if not a half-blood or the other way around.) would spark even more strif between the bloods inside of Hogwarts. And that is why Dumbledore has kept the information quiet. He doesn't want the school to become devide in this pivotal moment in time. but perhaps this will be encorperated into one of the teachers lessons, (maybe Firenze.) and the students will learn about it and word will get out and the slytherins and purebloods will become angry.

oh and yes this is a theory, emphasise on the word THEORY so please don't get too mad about this.

[Wep]

I don't understand how you could say nothing has been brought up about it. Are you kidding? This is a huge substance of the plot. Yes it was what the first war was about, but it is also a huge part of what the second war is about also. Voldemort isn't back just to get Harry. He is back to make himself stonger and to carry on with his 'politics'. You can't say it is going to come up again, it hasn't ever left

[VanMastaIteHab]

i dont think there was a fifth founder, or a) we would have already found out about it, b) there would have been 5 houses c) Hermione would have already informed everyone of 5 founders in the 2nd book

If there is no trace of a 5th founder anywhere in hogwarts, or the wizarding world, how can hermione find out?

[petruchio]

Ok, can you guys come up with a "canon" on why this theory cant happen? Exactly! If you can, I'll give up. But still, this is a THEORY!! The word, THEORY means something someone THINKS something could POSSIBLY happen. This does not mean it WILL happen. For all we know, she could be planning this. For all we know, she might be doing the opposite of this. That is why this is a THEORY.
Sure, I understand that this is no more than conjecture, but usually one has a reason for suggesting that the moon, for example, is made of green cheese. Theories simply do not materialize from nothing; they do not grow in a vacuum. If there were a reason, ANY reason, that one could glean the possibility of a fifth founder, or, for that matter, that the aforementioned fifth founder was a centaur, of all things, then yes, I could agree with you and say, "Yep, that theory's as good as any other." But there ain't, and that means that this theory just ain't gonna happen. Besides, we've already given canon with regard to centaurs: they're not halfbreeds, and it has already been stated in numerous places in the books that there were four, not five, founders.

[ComicBookWorm]

Ok, can you guys come up with a "canon" on why this theory cant happen? Exactly! If you can, I'll give up. But still, this is a THEORY!! The word, THEORY means something someone THINKS something could POSSIBLY happen. This does not mean it WILL happen. For all we know, she could be planning this. For all we know, she might be doing the opposite of this. That is why this is a THEORY.
Even theories need more than maybe it might happen. Usually there is something in the books as a starter. And our canon to disprove this is the fact that we have been told repeatedly that there were four founders and the rift was between Slytherin and Gryffindor. And the fact that Centaurs are separate magical beings not a human / horse mixture also comes from Fantastic Beasts and that is canon too.

[Wep]

If there is no trace of a 5th founder anywhere in hogwarts, or the wizarding world, how can hermione find out?

If there is no trace than doesn't that suggest there is no 5th founder? :huh:

[Selene Sedai]

I don't understand how you could say nothing has been brought up about it. Are you kidding? This is a huge substance of the plot. Yes it was what the first war was about, but it is also a huge part of what the second war is about also. Voldemort isn't back just to get Harry. He is back to make himself stonger and to carry on with his 'politics'. You can't say it is going to come up again, it hasn't ever left
i don't beleive the second war has completely started yet... and my point is not that it hasn't been brought up, but that what has been brought up is forshadowing to what it will turn into later on.

If there is no trace than doesn't that suggest there is no 5th founder? :huh:
yes, but that doesn't mean there wasn't one. The four founders would have made sure the fifth one didn't get into Hogwarts A History, and thats where Hermione gets all her information about Hogwarts.

[Wep]

i don't beleive the second war has completely started yet... and my point is not that it hasn't been brought up, but that what has been brought up is forshadowing to what it will turn into later on.

I disagree....the second war started as soon as Voldemort came back. Just because there haven't been huge battles (oh except for the DoM *slaps forehead*), doesn't mean the war hasn't started.

[VanMastaIteHab]

Ok, so maybe this isnt an official "theory" yet. If you think of it like science, its more of a hypothesis. We are still performing the "experiment" to find something in the books to make people believe us. Until we find this proof, its still a hypothesis.

[Selene Sedai]

I disagree....the second war started as soon as Voldemort came back. Just because there haven't been huge battles (oh except for the DoM *slaps forehead*), doesn't mean the war hasn't started.
notice the phrasing, Completely.

[Wep]

yes, but that doesn't mean there wasn't one. The four founders would have made sure the fifth one didn't get into Hogwarts A History, and thats where Hermione gets all her information about Hogwarts.


I'm sorry but it just doesn't make sense. If there was a fifth founder, there would have to be a fifth house, and there would have to be records somewhere
I just can't see any logic in this theory.

[ComicBookWorm]

i don't beleive the second war has completely started yet... and my point is not that it hasn't been brought up, but that what has been brought up is forshadowing to what it will turn into later on.


yes, but that doesn't mean there wasn't one. The four founders would have made sure the fifth one didn't get into Hogwarts A History, and thats where Hermione gets all her information about Hogwarts.
But how does the second war imply that a Centaur was a founder?

The history of Hogwarts is known by people outside of the text books.

[petruchio]

i don't beleive the second war has completely started yet... and my point is not that it hasn't been brought up, but that what has been brought up is forshadowing to what it will turn into later on.


yes, but that doesn't mean there wasn't one. The four founders would have made sure the fifth one didn't get into Hogwarts A History, and thats where Hermione gets all her information about Hogwarts.
OK, this is just getting a little bit ridiculous. Doesn't it stretch credulity to believe that the foreshadowing to which you refer is about a fifth founder, when no inkling of such a thing existed in any of the books, and indeed that the books say there were FOUR founders? The Sirius thing was fine; nobody ever said Harry DIDN'T have a godfather, did they? But JKR was very specific about the founders: there are four. No more.

[Wep]

notice the phrasing, Completely.


A war begins when it begins. It completely begins when it begins. It's the size that grows with time.

OK, this is just getting a little bit ridiculous. Doesn't it stretch credulity to believe that the foreshadowing to which you refer is about a fifth founder, when no inkling of such a thing existed in any of the books, and indeed that the books say there were FOUR founders? The Sirius thing was fine; nobody ever said Harry DIDN'T have a godfather, did they? But JKR was very specific about the founders: there are four. No more.

I agree. I don't think this can be compared to Sirius. Sirius wasn't mentioned because they were protecting Harry and the focus of the first books was more on Harry learning he is a wizard and starting to learn about his past. Book 3 built on that. And as Petruchio said, noone said there was no Godfather.

If there was 5 founders, JK wouldn''t have said there were onlly four, she wouldn't have bought it up.

[Selene Sedai]

I suppose i'm not fully explaining the connection properly.

The reason the founder would have to be a Centaur is because then the students of Hogwarts would feel prejudice against the half-breed that founded their school. (at least the ones who were racist would.) and it is also the reason that astronomy and divination are still taught at Hogwarts, because Centaurs are "ruddy star gazers." so that would be the talent that the fifth founder brought to the school and Centaurs have great knowledge about the heavens.

Also since Centaur are so annoying it would explain why Salazar left the school and the chamber with it. He built the chamber to seek his revenge. and he left because he couldn't stand the fifth founder, who wanted the school to be united instead of seperated into houses.

We all thought that Moody was Moody, and we "KNEW" he wasn't someone else, but then thats exactly what he turned out to be.

[VanMastaIteHab]

A war begins when it begins. It completely begins when it begins. It's the size that grows with time.



I agree. I don't think this can be compared to Sirius. Sirius wasn't mentioned because they were protecting Harry and the focus of the first books was more on Harry learning he is a wizard and starting to learn about his past. Book 3 built on that. And as Petruchio said, noone said there was no Godfather.

If there was 5 founders, JK wouldn''t have said there were onlly four, she wouldn't have bought it up.

There wasn't any mention of a godfather, but there was mention of sirius in the first chapter of the first book. I don't think people knew jk like we do today back then, but if we did, people would have been all over that stupid little name.(think of mark evans)

[Wep]

Hmm...still doesn't make sense. The four were friends, they wouldn't have brought in a Centaur to build a school knowing that he wouldn't be wanted. Also, Centaurs don't like working with Humans, they find teaching them Divination pointless, so why would they start the school.

[petruchio]

I suppose i'm not fully explaining the connection properly.

The reason the founder would have to be a Centaur is because then the students of Hogwarts would feel prejudice against the half-breed that founded their school. (at least the ones who were racist would.) and it is also the reason that astronomy and divination are still taught at Hogwarts, because Centaurs are "ruddy star gazers." so that would be the talent that the fifth founder brought to the school and Centaurs have great knowledge about the heavens.
Once again, and with backup from Fantastic Beasts: Centaurs are NOT halfbreeds. From the American Heritage Dictionary, copyright 2004, the Houghton Mifflin Corporation:

half-breed
n. Offensive
A person of mixed racial descent, especially a person of Native American and white parentage.

adj.
Half-blooded; hybrid. Used of animals.

[ComicBookWorm]

So is the Sorting Hat also mistaken about how many founders?

[SeekerLynch]

People have been saying that there's no "rock-hard" evidence supporting this theory, but they say they don't need it. But, even if you don't have "rock-hard" evidence, don't you still need some evidence at all? So far, no one has been able to come up with any evidence whatsoever.

[BlackHeart]

I suppose i'm not fully explaining the connection properly.

The reason the founder would have to be a Centaur is because then the students of Hogwarts would feel prejudice against the half-breed that founded their school. (at least the ones who were racist would.) and it is also the reason that astronomy and divination are still taught at Hogwarts, because Centaurs are "ruddy star gazers." so that would be the talent that the fifth founder brought to the school and Centaurs have great knowledge about the heavens.
I don't think that the reason divination and astronomy are still taught have anything to do with that. However imprecise, they are still branches of magic, and therefore will be taught at a school that teaches magic. Anyways, if that was true, the centaur having left, why would they keep those two subjects? The centaur couldn't make them. He/she left so he/she couldn't make them keep the subjects.

[Wep]

There wasn't any mention of a godfather, but there was mention of sirius in the first chapter of the first book. I don't think people knew jk like we do today back then, but if we did, people would have been all over that stupid little name.(think of mark evans)

I think you misunderstand me, whether Sirius was mentioned before PoA or not (and if he was when was that?) isn't the point. The point is that JK didn't outwardly say there is no godfather. She has expressed there is only four founders. What I am saying is that if there were five, I doubt JK would have lied, she would have avoided. And I knew JK as well then as I do now

[VanMastaIteHab]

So is the Sorting Hat also mistaken about how many founders?

Well, the sorting hat didnt come around until the founders left and weren't able to sort anymore.

[Selene Sedai]

So is the Sorting Hat also mistaken about how many founders?
yes, becuase it was Godric's hat and he turned it into the Sorting Hat, after the fifth founder left the school. He made sure that all the students that would have gone into the Centaurs house were equilly distributed into the other three houses so that no one would ask questions. The Centaur must have done something that would disgrace the four founders so that they whiped him from the legand. Then after the Sorting Hat was ready, all of the founders went into retirement.

[ComicBookWorm]

Well, the sorting hat didnt come around until the founders left and weren't able to sort anymore.
No the sorting hat was created and used by Gryffindor.

yes, becuase it was Godric's hat and he turned it into the Sorting Hat, after the fifth founder left the school. He made sure that all the students that would have gone into the Centaurs house were equilly distributed into the other three houses so that no one would ask questions. The Centaur must have done something that would disgrace the four founders so that they whiped him from the legand. Then after the Sorting Hat was ready, all of the founders went into retirement.
You're not presenting a theory, you're trying to rewrite the books. I'm out of here.

[Selene Sedai]

No the sorting hat was created and used by Gryffindor.


You're not presenting a theory, you're trying to rewrite the books. I'm out of here.
but that was becuase they were too old and worn to sort the students themselves, so they let the hat do it instead. So it was made as a replacement, and the founders then left the school or perhaps died.

[petruchio]

Another point: why would the Founders have bothered to hush it up, if there was a fifth founder who bowed out? Irrespective of whether they agreed with him/her or not, he/she was instrumental in forming the philosophy for the school, and in forming its curriculum. They would have at least acknowledged the "fifth founder" for the work he/she did, and if not, why is Slytherin still a house after Salazar had his little tantrum and left?

[VanMastaIteHab]

I think you misunderstand me, whether Sirius was mentioned before PoA or not (and if he was when was that?) isn't the point. The point is that JK didn't outwardly say there is no godfather. She has expressed there is only four founders. What I am saying is that if there were five, I doubt JK would have lied, she would have avoided. And I knew JK as well then as I do now

ok, I understand what you meant about that now. He was mentioned on pg 14 of the american version of SS/PP. I think it might have been mentioned in the movie too.

[ComicBookWorm]

but that was becuase they were too old and worn to sort the students themselves, so they let the hat do it instead. So it was made as a replacement, and the founders then left the school or perhaps died.You're still trying to rewrite the books. Nothing was said about the founders being too worn out and making the hat.

[Wep]

Thanks...and I am bowing out of this now, cause I have nothing more to say than i think this theory is extremely , well, unsubstantiated

[Selene Sedai]

Another point: why would the Founders have bothered to hush it up, if there was a fifth founder who bowed out? Irrespective of whether they agreed with him/her or not, he/she was instrumental in forming the philosophy for the school, and in forming its curriculum. They would have at least acknowledged the "fifth founder" for the work he/she did, and if not, why is Slytherin still a house after Salazar had his little tantrum and left?
Perhaps they were jelouse of the Centaurs knowledge and so they didn't want to acknowledge the fifth founder, in order to take all of the credit for founding the school. And the Centaur may have done something to disgrace them as well.

[RemusLupinFan]

I tend to agree that there is probably indeed no fifth founder for several reasons:

1) I agree that we would have found out about it by now, if not from Hermione, then from Dumbledore. I know he doesn't know everything, but he does know many things that most people don't know.

2) I agree with Wep that since there really is no trace or hint (at least I didn't see any in the books) that suggests there might have been a fifth founder, the most logical conclusion is that there really was no fifth founder. Also, I agree Occam's Razor factors in here.

3) Given the way Centaurs view humans, it is highly unlikely that a Centaur would share the Founders' dream of educating young witches and wizards. True, Firenze did teach at Hogwarts, but he had first been banished from the Forest. I just don't think any Centaur would have actively wanted to work with four humans to set up a school to educate human children. Conversely, given what we know and can guess about Salazar Slytherin, it doesn't seem to me like he would have been all that keen on having a Centaur- a non-human being- help humans set up a school to teach human children. Even before the relationship between he and Gryffindor soured, I would assume he still held non-human beings in a lower regard than humans, as we know he felt that half-bloods and muggle-borns were inferior to purebloods.

4) As ComicBookWorm said, the fact that there are four Founders and four Houses has been mentioned by several sources (the Sorting Hat, Hogwarts, a History imply to me that there really are only four Founders.

5) As has been mentioned, there are so many other ways that JK can introduce prejudice to the students, and there are several ways in which she has already touched upon the subject. There was Lupin as a werewolf, Hagrid as a half-giant, and to some degree, Firenze (there was certainly a lot of cultural ignorance about the ways of Centaurs among the students). There is also the whole issue of "purity" of blood, which has been mentioned previously. I'm not sure having a centaur as a fifth Founder of Hogwarts would advance the plot all that much, since the story deals mostly with prejudice against other humans (or those who aren't yet considered fully human by some but should be, like werewolves and muggles).

6) I still don't understand what the purpose of hiding the existance of a fifth founder would be in the first place. There would have been several ways that the Founders (perhaps minus Slytherin) could have introduced a Centaur to the student body in a positive light, encouraging tolerance among them. It doesn't quite make sense that they would try to cover up the existance of a Centaur Founder. Besides, I think it would be quite difficult to completely wipe out all trace of the existance of a fifth founder. Even magic has its limits.

[petruchio]

You're still trying to rewrite the books. Nothing was said about the founders being too worn out and making the hat.
The only things that are stated about the Sorting Hat are that it makes up a song, it sorts the students into houses, it has powers which we do not understand yet (e.g., the sword in CoS), and it belonged to Godric Gryffindor. That's all; for all we know, it might have been used in the first class at Hogwarts, because all four founders were tired of arguing about who goes in what house, and the Sorting Hat seemed to be the most fair way to resolve the dispute.

[Selene Sedai]

You're still trying to rewrite the books. Nothing was said about the founders being too worn out and making the hat.
I beleive The Sorting Hat says so in one of its songs, (i think either in the fifth or fourth book)

[VanMastaIteHab]

I tend to agree that there is probably indeed no fifth founder for several reasons:

1) I agree that we would have found out about it by now, if not from Hermione, then from Dumbledore. I know he doesn't know everything, but he does know many things that most people don't know.

2) I agree with Wep that since there really is no trace or hint (at least I didn't see any in the books) that suggests there might have been a fifth founder, the most logical conclusion is that there really was no fifth founder. Also, I agree Occam's Razor factors in here.

3) Given the way Centaurs view humans, it is highly unlikely that a Centaur would share the Founders' dream of educating young witches and wizards. True, Firenze did teach at Hogwarts, but he had first been banished from the Forest. I just don't think any Centaur would have actively wanted to work with four humans to set up a school to educate human children. Conversely, given what we know and can guess about Salazar Slytherin, it doesn't seem to me like he would have been all that keen on having a Centaur- a non-human being- help humans set up a school to teach human children. Even before the relationship between he and Gryffindor soured, I would assume he still held non-human beings in a lower regard than humans, as we know he felt that half-bloods and muggle-borns were inferior to purebloods.

4) As ComicBookWorm said, the fact that there are four Founders and four Houses has been mentioned by several sources (the Sorting Hat, Hogwarts, a History imply to me that there really are only four Founders.

5) As has been mentioned, there are so many other ways that JK can introduce prejudice to the students, and there are several ways in which she has already touched upon the subject. There was Lupin as a werewolf, Hagrid as a half-giant, and to some degree, Firenze (there was certainly a lot of cultural ignorance about the ways of Centaurs among the students). There is also the whole issue of "purity" of blood, which has been mentioned previously. I'm not sure having a centaur as a fifth Founder of Hogwarts would advance the plot all that much, since the story deals mostly with prejudice against other humans (or those who aren't yet considered fully human by some but should be, like werewolves and muggles).

6) I still don't understand what the purpose of hiding the existance of a fifth founder would be in the first place. There would have been several ways that the Founders (perhaps minus Slytherin) could have introduced a Centaur to the student body in a positive light, encouraging tolerance among them. It doesn't quite make sense that they would try to cover up the existance of a Centaur Founder. Besides, I think it would be quite difficult to completely wipe out all trace of the existance of a fifth founder. Even magic has its limits.

About your 3rd reason, the whole, centaur leaving the school thing (according to the theory) is why centaurs got this view of humans.

[Wep]

Ok before I really go, I think RemusLupinFan has pretty muched summed it up. And to me there are too many perhaps, and maybe's. There isn't anything concrete to base this on. At least with the Mark Evan's theory we had a name. This theory has no basis to me

[Barbara Kennedy]

I suggest these threads.

Half Breed or Half Blood? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=29601)
Those Prejudiced Centaurs (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=34935)
Significance of the Centaurs’ Discussion? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=3084)
Did the centaurs in SS reveal the eventual outcome? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=32883)
The Mystery of Sinistra and Astronomy (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=35927)
Fantastic Beasts (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=1666)
All about Magical Creatures (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=30942)
Magical Creatures from their point of view (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=31742)

[Selene Sedai]

You are all prooving very hard to convince, but if you'll read the series with this in mind, you might find that it fits well.

[BlackHeart]

You are all prooving very hard to convince, but if you'll read the series with this in mind, you might find that it fits well.How so? I've reread the whole series so many times it's mind boggling. And I still find this hard to swallow.

[petruchio]

About your 3rd reason, the whole, centaur leaving the school thing (according to the theory) is why centaurs got this view of humans.
No, the reason centaurs dislike humans is that, in their opinion, humans are not attuned to the greater magic inherent in the universe: they do not understand divination, they do not perceive the ebb and flow of magic in the world that well, and they are generally walking around in a daze. We tend not to hang around with people we believe are not our equals in intellect or spirituality either, regardless of whether that's the "nice" thing to do, or not. Insensitive? Perhaps, but true.

[VanMastaIteHab]

Selene sedai has a good idea. I just learned about the theory today, but just thinking of some of the plot elements, this would fit rather nicely in the plot.

No, the reason centaurs dislike humans is that, in their opinion, humans are not attuned to the greater magic inherent in the universe: they do not understand divination, they do not perceive the ebb and flow of magic in the world that well, and they are generally walking around in a daze. We tend not to hang around with people we believe are not our equals in intellect or spirituality either, regardless of whether that's the "nice" thing to do, or not. Insensitive? Perhaps, but true.

Which could be why the centaur fled in the first place.

[ComicBookWorm]

When theories have some basis in them, people post ideas that expand and enhance the idea. When the theories have no basis in them or are directly contradicted by existing facts, then you get the kinds of posting that has happened in this thread.

Most of us have read the books innumerable times, but what you are asking us to do is rewrite them, not reread them.

[BlackHeart]

Selene sedai has a good idea. I just learned about the theory today, but just thinking of some of the plot elements, this would fit rather nicely in the plot.
Why would a fifth founder be significant to the plot?

[Selene Sedai]

I tend to agree that there is probably indeed no fifth founder for several reasons:

1) I agree that we would have found out about it by now, if not from Hermione, then from Dumbledore. I know he doesn't know everything, but he does know many things that most people don't know.

2) I agree with Wep that since there really is no trace or hint (at least I didn't see any in the books) that suggests there might have been a fifth founder, the most logical conclusion is that there really was no fifth founder. Also, I agree Occam's Razor factors in here.

3) Given the way Centaurs view humans, it is highly unlikely that a Centaur would share the Founders' dream of educating young witches and wizards. True, Firenze did teach at Hogwarts, but he had first been banished from the Forest. I just don't think any Centaur would have actively wanted to work with four humans to set up a school to educate human children. Conversely, given what we know and can guess about Salazar Slytherin, it doesn't seem to me like he would have been all that keen on having a Centaur- a non-human being- help humans set up a school to teach human children. Even before the relationship between he and Gryffindor soured, I would assume he still held non-human beings in a lower regard than humans, as we know he felt that half-bloods and muggle-borns were inferior to purebloods.

4) As ComicBookWorm said, the fact that there are four Founders and four Houses has been mentioned by several sources (the Sorting Hat, Hogwarts, a History imply to me that there really are only four Founders.

5) As has been mentioned, there are so many other ways that JK can introduce prejudice to the students, and there are several ways in which she has already touched upon the subject. There was Lupin as a werewolf, Hagrid as a half-giant, and to some degree, Firenze (there was certainly a lot of cultural ignorance about the ways of Centaurs among the students). There is also the whole issue of "purity" of blood, which has been mentioned previously. I'm not sure having a centaur as a fifth Founder of Hogwarts would advance the plot all that much, since the story deals mostly with prejudice against other humans (or those who aren't yet considered fully human by some but should be, like werewolves and muggles).

6) I still don't understand what the purpose of hiding the existance of a fifth founder would be in the first place. There would have been several ways that the Founders (perhaps minus Slytherin) could have introduced a Centaur to the student body in a positive light, encouraging tolerance among them. It doesn't quite make sense that they would try to cover up the existance of a Centaur Founder. Besides, I think it would be quite difficult to completely wipe out all trace of the existance of a fifth founder. Even magic has its limits.

regarding your second reason: The hint lies within the prejudices of the Wizarding race.

regarding your fourth reason:
We were all of us convinced that Moody was REALLY Moody, and than it turned out he was someone else entirely. And remember what i've said about the founders wanting to keep it quiet.

[VanMastaIteHab]

Why would a fifth founder be significant to the plot?

It wouldn't exactly be significant, it would just work nicely into the storyline. Sort of like the whole cho thing. The story could have done without her, but it was fun with her in it. This would just give a little insight into the REAL history of hogwarts.

[petruchio]

Which could be why the centaur fled in the first place.
OK, then why did this theoretical centaur agree to help in the first place? Doesn't make a lot of sense to me; if you really don't like someone, or someone's background, generally you wouldn't go into business with them.

An analogue in the modern world: a black man in the 1950's American south decides to open a restaurant. How many white men would volunteer to have a go at running the place with him, knowing the prevailing attitudes of his friends and neighbors? Pretty much nobody. Hate to say it, but it's true.

[ComicBookWorm]

So Van are you an alter ego for Selene or a friend? You are arguing this thread using the word "we" when discussing it.

[Selene Sedai]

So Van are you an alter ego for Selene or a friend? You are arguing this thread using the word "we" when discussing it.
probably because "we" agree that this theory is plausible, but i don't know anyone personally on this forum.

[VanMastaIteHab]

OK, then why did this theoretical centaur agree to help in the first place? Doesn't make a lot of sense to me; if you really don't like someone, or someone's background, generally you wouldn't go into business with them.

An analogue in the modern world: a black man in the 1950's American south decides to open a restaurant. How many white men would volunteer to have a go at running the place with him, knowing the prevailing attitudes of his friends and neighbors? Pretty much nobody. Hate to say it, but it's true.

An outsider. Thats who would help. Like Firenze. He doesnt mind humans as much as...Bane. The whole Firenze thing could be a repeat of history. Maybe Firenze's ancestor was the 5th founder. And you know what, comicbookworm is right. If this was to happen, it would almost rewrite the books. Everything that we have learned about the 4 founders would be obsolete. And you know what, this would make a great fanfic, if anything else.

[petruchio]

How much convincing do you need? I mean, I just noticed that you're posting a fan-fic based on this tenuous theory; is that why you're keeping this thread going? To advertise for your fan-fic? There's no way in God's green earth that this could happen. None. Sorry.

[RemusLupinFan]

regarding your second reason: The hint lies within the prejudices of the Wizarding race.In my opinion, I really don't see the wizarding world being all that prejudiced toward Centaurs. For one thing, the Ministry of Magic offered to give them the status of "being", which they themselves rejected because they prefered to manage their own affairs. It anything, the wizarding world is a bit ignorant of their ways, but I haven't really seen much evidence (besides Umbridge's reaction) that the Centaurs are really hated like werewolves and giants are. The wizarding world in general to me seems to more prejudiced toward these groups than they are toward Centaurs.

regarding your fourth reason:
We were all of us convinced that Moody was REALLY Moody, and than it turned out he was someone else entirely. And remember what i've said about the founders wanting to keep it quiet.The possibility for a huge twist is entirely possible, I will definitely give you that. But somehow, I don't see the discovery of a fifth founder to be a big shocker like fake Moody was. Just my opinion though. :)

[ComicBookWorm]

probably because "we" agree that this theory is plausible, but i don't know anyone personally on this forum.
Then you are the only two that seem to agree about this. We have had several incidents recently of members setting up second IDs just to help them support a theory.

[Selene Sedai]

OK, then why did this theoretical centaur agree to help in the first place? Doesn't make a lot of sense to me; if you really don't like someone, or someone's background, generally you wouldn't go into business with them.

An analogue in the modern world: a black man in the 1950's American south decides to open a restaurant. How many white men would volunteer to have a go at running the place with him, knowing the prevailing attitudes of his friends and neighbors? Pretty much nobody. Hate to say it, but it's true.
The Centaur would be the "representative" in a way of other Centaurs in the founding of Hogwarts. They are very wise and probably would want to found something! Also, before the founding of Hogwarts, Centuars could have gotten along al right with Wizards, but then after the founding and after the fifth founder left, there was a drift between the two races, and the rest of the Centaurs were offended.

[VanMastaIteHab]

How much convincing do you need? I mean, I just noticed that you're posting a fan-fic based on this tenuous theory; is that why you're keeping this thread going? To advertise for your fan-fic? There's no way in God's green earth that this could happen. None. Sorry.

I dont plan on a fanfic, but it would be good if there was one.

[BlackHeart]

It wouldn't exactly be significant, it would just work nicely into the storyline. Sort of like the whole cho thing. The story could have done without her, but it was fun with her in it. This would just give a little insight into the REAL history of hogwarts.We are already getting history lessons throughout the book though. I think that something would have pointed to this already.

Do you guys have any quotes from the books to back this theory up?

[Selene Sedai]

Then you are the only two that seem to agree about this. We have had several incidents recently of members setting up second IDs just to help them support a theory.
i can assure you that i have only one account on Cos forums, if you wish to contact the administrators to make sure, you may do so.

The fanfic is just for fun and i will delete it if you intend to get all up in arms about it.

[petruchio]

And you know what, comicbookworm is right. If this was to happen, it would almost rewrite the books. Everything that we have learned about the 4 founders would be obsolete.
Not almost, it would rewrite the books. I can just see JKR right now, on a BBC interview:
"Erm, sorry about all that 'four founders' rot. I figured out a way to introduce a totally superfluous character into the sixth book of a seven book series. The Centaur doesn't really introduce any new ideas into the story of Harry and his friends, but I like centaurs, so I figured, 'what the heck?' So all of you Harry fans out there, who had already sorted yourselves into houses, there's really a fifth one, and the marketing department is just starting to print the shirts now. Get your Mastercards out."

I dont plan on a fanfic, but it would be good if there was one.
Not you, Selene.

[ComicBookWorm]

The Centaur would be the "representative" in a way of other Centaurs in the founding of Hogwarts. They are very wise and probably would want to found something! Also, before the founding of Hogwarts, Centuars could have gotten along al right with Wizards, but then after the founding and after the fifth founder left, there was a drift between the two races, and the rest of the Centaurs were offended.
They're very wise and would want to found something? :huh: :shrug:

You are rewriting the books again with all this speculation about the Centaurs motives and why there is a split in the wizarding world. We know why there is a split in the wizarding world. We've been told numerous times. It's between purebloods and non-purebloods.

[VanMastaIteHab]

Not almost, it would rewrite the books. I can just see JKR right now, on a BBC interview:
"Erm, sorry about all that 'four founders' rot. I figured out a way to introduce a totally superfluous character into the sixth book of a seven book series. The Centaur doesn't really introduce any new ideas into the story of Harry and his friends, but I like centaurs, so I figured, 'what the heck?' So all of you Harry fans out there, who had already sorted yourselves into houses, there's really a fifth one, and the marketing department is just starting to print the shirts now. Get your Mastercards out."


Not you, Selene.

Sorry. I still like this theory. I started laughing when I heard this. It would be funny to hear her say this.

[BlackHeart]

The Centaur would be the "representative" in a way of other Centaurs in the founding of Hogwarts. They are very wise and probably would want to found something! Also, before the founding of Hogwarts, Centuars could have gotten along al right with Wizards, but then after the founding and after the fifth founder left, there was a drift between the two races, and the rest of the Centaurs were offended.
LOL! And just because they wanted to start something means they did?

[petruchio]

The Centaur would be the "representative" in a way of other Centaurs in the founding of Hogwarts. They are very wise and probably would want to found something! Also, before the founding of Hogwarts, Centuars could have gotten along al right with Wizards, but then after the founding and after the fifth founder left, there was a drift between the two races, and the rest of the Centaurs were offended.

Well, then, why are there no centaur students at Hogwarts? Why do centaurs prefer (apparently) to "home-school" their foals? Jeez, how many holes do you plan on filling with this stuff?

[Selene Sedai]

Not almost, it would rewrite the books. I can just see JKR right now, on a BBC interview:
"Erm, sorry about all that 'four founders' rot. I figured out a way to introduce a totally superfluous character into the sixth book of a seven book series. The Centaur doesn't really introduce any new ideas into the story of Harry and his friends, but I like centaurs, so I figured, 'what the heck?' So all of you Harry fans out there, who had already sorted yourselves into houses, there's really a fifth one, and the marketing department is just starting to print the shirts now. Get your Mastercards out."


Not you, Selene.
argh, that was a bit harsh. after all, this is just a theory. its not like its actually going to happen. but still, :rotfl:

[Rapunzel]

Didn't JKR say that the sorting hat knows what it's talking about? I'm not sure where that thought comes from, but it seems to me that she said something like that in one of her interviews. So I think it's highly unlikely that there was a 5th founder. But, having said that, I would love it if there was. Not necessarily a centaur, but some magical being that's not human. An ancestor of one of the merpeople that live in the lake at Hogwarts, maybe?

Is there canon on whether Slytherin was prejudiced against other magical creatures as he was against muggleborns and half-bloods?

[BlackHeart]

argh, that was a bit harsh. after all, this is just a theory. its not like its actually going to happen.
You see though? Theories have a basis to discuss them on. This doesn't. It's not really a theory per se. More like...well, something you'd like to see happen.

[RemusLupinFan]

The Centaur would be the "representative" in a way of other Centaurs in the founding of Hogwarts. They are very wise and probably would want to found something! Also, before the founding of Hogwarts, Centuars could have gotten along al right with Wizards, but then after the founding and after the fifth founder left, there was a drift between the two races, and the rest of the Centaurs were offended.Another thing I don't understand is why a centaur would want to help found a school for humans. As far as I know, there were never any plans for Centaur children to share in the education of wizards. Unless there was such a plan, I don't see any reason for a Centaur to help establish an institution for humans if they are not going to benefit from it in some way. To found something just for the sake of founding it doesn't really make sense to me. Again, this is just my opinion. :)

[Barbara Kennedy]

I've observed this thread go in circles since the beginning, but I still don't see anything more "than maybe this could happen if we ignore canon."

Try these threads for info.

The definition of “canon” (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=33372)
Misled? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=28092)
What future revelations do you see in Book 6 and 7? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=11607)
Racial Prejudices in the Wizarding World (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=35268)
What was the final breach? ( http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=37318)

[Selene Sedai]

Well, then, why are there no centaur students at Hogwarts? Why do centaurs prefer (apparently) to "home-school" their foals? Jeez, how many holes do you plan on filling with this stuff?
because they wouldn't want to be taught at a school where the founder that was of their race, was not acnowledged.... and i don't think they use wands...

oh and they would also want to help found a school for wizards to show them how smart and wise Centaurs are, after all, Centaurs are a very haughty race.

But i need to take a break from this, dinner time and school tomarro. Happy debating!

[VanMastaIteHab]

Didn't JKR say that the sorting hat knows what it's talking about? I'm not sure where that thought comes from, but it seems to me that she said something like that in one of her interviews. So I think it's highly unlikely that there was a 5th founder. But, having said that, I would love it if there was. Not necessarily a centaur, but some magical being that's not human. An ancestor of one of the merpeople that live in the lake at Hogwarts, maybe?

Is there canon on whether Slytherin was prejudiced against other magical creatures as he was against muggleborns and half-bloods?

I dont think that there is.

[petruchio]

oh and they would also want to help found a school for wizards to show them how smart and wise Centaurs are, after all, Centaurs are a very haughty race.

Oh, please. They generally disdain humans and would want nothing more than to avoid contact with them entirely, because they consider humans to be inferior to their species. Why would they care what a bunch of humans think of them? And why would they want to engage in the founding of a human school at which no centaur children would willingly enroll, especially given the influence of their parents?

[Rapunzel]

Oh, please. They generally disdain humans and would want nothing more than to avoid contact with them entirely, because they consider humans to be inferior to their species. Why would they care what a bunch of humans think of them? And why would they want to engage in the founding of a human school at which no centaur children would willingly enroll, especially given the influence of their parents?
I confess I haven't read the entire thread, so maybe the thread starter stated it in a post somewhere. But all the comments I've seen are on whether the hypothetical fifth founder was a centaur. There are other intelligent magical creatures besides centaurs. :huh:
EDIT: I agree that any hypothetical fifth founder would not have been a centaur, because (if FB&WTFT counts as canon) the centaurs have never been interested - or willing - to have anything to do with humans (either wizard or muggle).
I think we should cut the thread starter some slack here. Whether or not it's likely to ever happen in the series, it could still be a fun topic of discussion. It's not possible for all of the ships being discussed in the love thread to happen, but they all still get discussed at length anyway.

[Barbara Kennedy]

?Not that anyone cares, and it may not be pertinent at this point, but I just spent a bit of time looking this up and typing it in.
It was said by Mr. Diggory when they found Winky with Harry's wand at the Quidditch World Cup riot.....(page 132 GoF hardback - USA edition)
"So that's clause three of the Code of Wand Use broken, for a start. No non-human creature is permitted to carry or use a wand."

Why would a centaur want to help found a school of magic when their own people couldn't use magic anyway? I am aware that the law may have been different at the time the school was established, but I see no evidence that the centaurs use magic anyway.

[crumseekerlynch]

Nope. Dumbledore bewitched the room to look like a forest. If a Centar was one of the founders why would he put so many stairs in it? If the sorting hat said there were four there were four. If they would just get red of one why wouldn't they wipe out slytherens memory too?

[petruchio]

Here it is, Rapunzel.The Sorting Hats says in its songs that there were only four founders and the legand had the number four as well, but something leads me to beleive that there was one more, and that the fifth founder wasn't a wizard! If i didn't know better i'd say it was a centaur and that the reason the centaur got booted out of the legand after having helped create the school, is because he wanted the school to be united and not split into houses! Also, think, how come there is a room that can be turned into a replica of the centaurs habitat, inside of Hogwarts? I am refering, of course, to the room where Firenze now teaches divination.

And now you see why we're going nuts in here, trying to figure out just where Selene gets her ideas.

[Cranberries66]

Hey I think your right! I never thought of that. Mabye the fith founder could be one of Firenze's ancestors or, depending on how long centaurs can live, mabye he was the fith founder! We should look into this! G2g
Cranberries66/ Brooke

[ComicBookWorm]

I confess I haven't read the entire thread, so maybe the thread starter stated it in a post somewhere. But all the comments I've seen are on whether the hypothetical fifth founder was a centaur. There are other intelligent magical creatures besides centaurs. :huh:
The opening post stated it. Also she said the fifth founder would be the HBP and we went around a bit trying to explain that half-blood isn't half-breed. And that Centaurs weren't even half-breeds since that would imply they breed with humans. And even that was disproved by Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them, since Centaurs are described as a separate species of magical being. Then we pointed out that there is nothing in the books to indicate extra founders and lots to prove there were only four founders like Hogwarts a History, everyone's knowledge of history, and the Sorting Hat's song. And she says that Centaurs are the reason there is a split in the wizarding world. I hope this makes sense to you, because it doesn't to any of us.

We also pointed out that Slytherin left but they didn't obliterate all evidence of his existence, but that wasn't good enough either. So have fun posting here.

[BlackHeart]

Hey I think your right! I never thought of that. Mabye the fith founder could be one of Firenze's ancestors or, depending on how long centaurs can live, mabye he was the fith founder! We should look into this! G2g
Cranberries66/ Brooke
er....have you read any of this thread?

[Rapunzel]

Here it is, Rapunzel.
And now you see why we're going nuts in here, trying to figure out just where Selene gets her ideas.

Thanks, petruchio.

I still like the idea of a fifth founder being a merman/mermaid - even if I don't think there was a fifth. Like I said above, even if we could 100% guarantee that it will never happen in canon, it can still be a fun topic of discussion. Something to help get us through the long wait for HBP. :sigh:

[petruchio]

Thanks, petruchio.

I still like the idea of a fifth founder being a merman/mermaid - even if I don't think there was a fifth. Like I said above, even if we could 100% guarantee that it will never happen in canon, it can still be a fun topic of discussion. Something to help get us through the long wait for HBP. :sigh:

No problem. Off topic: BTW, where is your fanfic these days?

[Rapunzel]

No problem. Off topic: BTW, where is your fanfic these days?
Off topic answer: I have no delusion that I have any talent as a writer, petruchio. :lol: Discussing (possibly) off-the-wall ideas in here is as good as it gets. ;)
I also feel a little sorry for Selene. It's no fun when everyone trashes your idea.
Is there a rule (written or unwritten) that discussions in Divination Studies have to stick to what's probable (or even possible)?
We know Dumbledore can speak mermish. I assume the merpeople's children are taught somewhere. So, since the lake is on the Hogwarts grounds, assuming the merpeople have been there since the school was founded, there is a fifth house. :evil:
(sort of :angel: )

[petruchio]

Ahh, I see. You know, I think the idea of a Mermish fifth founder is more plausible than a centaur. You might have something there. And I know of no such rule with regard to Divination Studies; I would think that it's common sense, though. Although outlandish theories are a lot of fun, aren't they? Check some of these (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=33769) out!

[Rapunzel]

Ahh, I see. You know, I think the idea of a Mermish fifth founder is more plausible than a centaur. You might have something there. And I know of no such rule with regard to Divination Studies; I would think that it's common sense, though. Although outlandish theories are a lot of fun, aren't they? Check some of these (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=33769) out!
Even if none of the merpeople participated in the actual founding of the school, if they were living in the lake they could have had some input. Isn't there a link somewhere between the lake and the chamber of secrets? Maybe someone should have asked the merpeople about the monster in the chamber. ;) (Can basilisiks swim?)

I love that thread you linked, petruchio, it's fun to read in there. :agree: :lol:

[petruchio]

BTW, there's a really great fanfic that has a half-mermish central character (I recommend this fic to everyone I know). Find it here (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=18555). And I just consulted the Lexicon and I didn't see anything about basilisks swimming; that doesn't mean they can't, though.

[Rapunzel]

BTW, there's a really great fanfic that has a half-mermish central character (I recommend this fic to everyone I know). Find it here (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=18555). And I just consulted the Lexicon and I didn't see anything about basilisks swimming; that doesn't mean they can't, though.
Sorry, that comment about the basilisk swimming needed a little tongue-in-cheek smiley behind it. ;)
Do you suppose Dumbledore keeps in contact with the merpeople in the lake? He speaks the language, and in GoF he seemed to know their chief (or whatever they call their leader - too long since I read GoF). I like the idea of the merpeople being part of the school, even if they're not involved enough that they would be considered their own "house."
Don't you think merpeople could have been a lot of help in constructing the school? The parts that connect to the lake, at least?

[petruchio]

Sorry, that comment about the basilisk swimming needed a little tongue-in-cheek smiley behind it. ;)
I tend to think in the literal; I suppose that's why I'm such a lousy actor and such a good director! :p
Do you suppose Dumbledore keeps in contact with the merpeople in the lake? He speaks the language, and in GoF he seemed to know their chief (or whatever they call their leader - too long since I read GoF). I like the idea of the merpeople being part of the school, even if they're not involved enough that they would be considered their own "house."
Don't you think merpeople could have been a lot of help in constructing the school? The parts that connect to the lake, at least?
Absolutely; how else would the monster in the lake have been placated long enough to allow the construction of the school? The chief (that word is correct, I think) knows Dumbledore well enough to make a bargain with him with regard to the second task in GoF, even to the point that the captives' lives would be spared if any of the champions failed in their attempts to rescue them, something that I am led to believe is very much against type for Merfolk.

[Rapunzel]

See, so the idea of a fifth founder isn't all that unbelievable - as long as we hypothesize about merpeople instead of centaurs. :lol:
(Actually, I think that even if a merman/mermaid was involved in setting up/building the school, maybe giving them the title of "founder" would be going a bit too far. But the speculation is still fun.)

[petruchio]

Hee-hee! Very true! I wonder where all the arguers went?

[Rapunzel]

Probably out sharpening their rapier wits in preparation to come back and tell me how wrong I am to speculate that a mer-person could have been a fifth founder. :scared: :lol:

[petruchio]

LOL! Be afraid, be very afraid!'Course, we even got a couple of seventh-years in on the lively repartee; I wonder if Selene has given up?

[ComicBookWorm]

Probably out sharpening their rapier wits in preparation to come back and tell me how wrong I am to speculate that a mer-person could have been a fifth founder. :scared: :lol:
Rappy you can say anything you want as long as you don't say that merpeople are half-breeds (meaning fishes and humans got it on).

Personally, I'm all for the 10 founders idea myself. Four humans, Centaur, Merperson, Elf, Goblin, Veela, Giant.

And if you think trolls and hags should added in, we can expand it to twelve.

[Dementor Dave]

Rappy you can say anything you want as long as you don't say that merpeople are half-breeds (meaning fishes and humans got it on).

Personally, I'm all for the 10 founders idea myself. Four humans, Centaur, Merperson, Elf, Goblin, Veela, Giant.

And if you think trolls and hags should added in, we can expand it to twelve.

13, I'm absolutely positive a Leprechaun was involved. Just look at all of the gold in the books. Had to be.

[ComicBookWorm]

13, I'm absolutely positive a Leprechaun was involved. Just look at all of the gold in the books. Had to be.
There's canon for that since 13 is an unlucky number and it's been mentioned several times.

[Dementor Dave]

There's canon for that since 13 is an unlucky number and it's been mentioned several times.


I do beleive we are on to something, CBW. All of the canon referances, the underlying theme of equality, its all coming together. There were 13 founders! We've figured JKR out! No need to even finish the series now, I'd say.

[Rapunzel]

Rappy you can say anything you want as long as you don't say that merpeople are half-breeds (meaning fishes and humans got it on).
Nope. Never said, and never will, that merpeople are half breeds. Just said that they could have helped out in the beginning of Hogwarts.

PS: Special to CBW and Dave. :p :lol:

[Wep]

I do beleive we are on to something, CBW. All of the canon referances, the underlying theme of equality, its all coming together. There were 13 founders! We've figured JKR out! No need to even finish the series now, I'd say.

:rotfl: priceless :rotfl:

though I think you forgot werewolves :D

[ComicBookWorm]

:rotfl: priceless :rotfl:

though I think you forgot werewolves :D
I left out werewolves and vampires because they are humans with a magical physical ailment. Sort of a magical disability.

[Dementor Dave]

I left out werewolves and vampires because they are humans with a magical physical ailment. Sort of a magical disability.

But if we add them, there will be 15 founders! Don't you see how obviously JKR that is? 1 plus 5 is 6, a hint that this info is coming in book 6. So clever. But I've got her pegged.

[Wep]

Ahhh...my bad :p

And I think you're right Dave...who needs JK when we have you :p

[The Saint]

Using that same logic that you used to come up with that theory. It could have been a vampire, a werewolf or a merman that founded the school as well as the four. I'm thinking that there were only the four. The centaur relationships to the school run deeper then we're told so far. That's something that I think you might be on to, however.

[ComicBookWorm]

Selene, this is probably a great fanfic idea, but it doesn't stand up to examination. Theories in Divination usually need to have something in canon supporting them. But all we can find are things in canon that disprove it.

Centaurs are not half-breeds according to FBAWTFT.

And half-breeds are not half-bloods--not in JKR's definition.

The Sorting Hat, Hogwarts a History, Prof. Binns, and everyone else in the wizarding world all talk about four founders.

They didn't remove evidence of Slytherin from Hogwarts when he left, so why remove evidence of a Centaur?

We already have the pureblood / non-pureblood conflict to show bigotry adding a Centaur doesn't change that dynamic.

[petruchio]

Using that same logic that you used to come up with that theory. It could have been a vampire, a werewolf or a merman that founded the school as well as the four. I'm thinking that there were only the four. The centaur relationships to the school run deeper then we're told so far. That's something that I think you might be on to, however.
Dang. Here we go again. Just so's ya know, CBW, Dave, and Wep were just kidding about having 15 founders. Did you not read the rest of the forum? And while I agree that the relationship between Hogwarts and the centaurs is indeed profound, I simply cannot put any credence in the supposition that (a) there was a fifth founder and (b) that founder was specifically a centaur.

[ComicBookWorm]

Dang. Here we go again. Just so's ya know, CBW, Dave, and Wep were just kidding about having 15 founders. Did you not read the rest of the forum? And while I agree that the relationship between Hogwarts and the centaurs is indeed profound, I simply cannot put any credence in the supposition that (a) there was a fifth founder and (b) that founder was specifically a centaur.
I also think that the Centaurs will be important--just not like this.

[anabel]

Centaurs are definitely a race of their own and not half-breeds of any sort - that was just prejudice and ignorance on Umbridge's part.

But do centaurs use magic at all? They are astrologers and divination is said to be a branch of magic, but really it is more like science: study and interpretation. I don't see that as magic.

[Rapunzel]

But do centaurs use magic at all?

Same question as to merpeople. Do they have any magic at all?

[anabel]

Same question as to merpeople. Do they have any magic at all?
Well. they seemed very wary of Harry's wand in the lake, so my guess is not. I think centaurs and merpeople are only "magical creatures" in the respect that they are hidden from muggles.
Hang on, here's a quote
MBAWTFT p6
The ways of the centaur are shrouded in mystery. They are generally speaking as mistrustful of wizards as they are of muggles and indeed seem to make little differentiation between us. ... They are reputed to be well-versed in magical healing, divination, archery and astronomy. So they know magical healing/herbology as well as divination, but no "foolish wand waving" here.

[ComicBookWorm]

So not to beat a concept to death, why would a Centaur found a school for magic if Centaurs have no magic?

[Rapunzel]

So not to beat a concept to death, why would a Centaur found a school for magic if Centaurs have no magic?
I think we all understand perfectly your opinion on the theory, CBW. :rotfl:

[Machiavelli]

Perhaps there were actually centaur founders - but of the centaur school of magical healing, divination and herbs. They made the basic error of challenging Hogwarts to a friendly game of quiddich, and as centaurs are almost ridiculously ill-designed for sitting on brooms they were completely flattened. Bitterness against Hogwarts rose up in the hearts of the centaurs and they swore never again to have dealings with the wizard school. So Firenze is doubly a traitor - not only teaching humans, but teaching at Hogwarts. Naturally they're terrified that he will let slip their secret plan to humiliate Hogwarts in a three-day gobstone tournament. They've been training for years.

[anabel]

Perhaps there were actually centaur founders - but of the centaur school of magical healing, divination and herbs. They made the basic error of challenging Hogwarts to a friendly game of quiddich, and as centaurs are almost ridiculously ill-designed for sitting on brooms they were completely flattened. Bitterness against Hogwarts rose up in the hearts of the centaurs and they swore never again to have dealings with the wizard school. So Firenze is doubly a traitor - not only teaching humans, but teaching at Hogwarts. Naturally they're terrified that he will let slip their secret plan to humiliate Hogwarts in a three-day gobstone tournament. They've been training for years.
:rotfl: :huh: :rotfl: :p :rotfl: :huh: :rotfl: :evil: :rotfl:

[Violet Black]

I don't think there was a fifth founder, but I quite like the idea, chiefly because of the magical symmetry - the five founders representing the five points of the pentagram.

Regarding the question of one of the founders being a half-blood or even a muggle-born - if anyone, I think it would be Godric Gryffindor. I'm not necessarily saying this makes him the Half-Blood Prince, just that it might have been the cause of the ire between him and Salazar Slytherin. Perhaps they were great friends - UNTIL Gryffindor confessed to being a half-blood or muggle-born.

The other candidate could be Helga Hufflepuff, since she was willing to give everyone the chance to train as a witch or wizard. Perhaps because she herself was halfblood or muggle-born?

[Tane]

Well I guess the only thing we could use to connect a centaur being a fifth founder would be the study of astronomy at Hogwarts. Witches and wizards are not great at teaching the art of astronomy to foretell the future but centaurs are so why is the subject included in the syllabus. Then again that could be answered very easily I guess as there is nothing stopping Hogwarts from hiring centaurs in the past to teach the art of astronomy and hence the room which imitates the centaurs habitat being present in Hogwarts.

The only fifth founder for me would be Harry because Hogwarts appears to be on the verge of change and may need rebuilding by the time the story is over and done with.

[Selene Sedai]

Off topic answer: I have no delusion that I have any talent as a writer, petruchio. :lol: Discussing (possibly) off-the-wall ideas in here is as good as it gets. ;)
I also feel a little sorry for Selene. It's no fun when everyone trashes your idea.
Is there a rule (written or unwritten) that discussions in Divination Studies have to stick to what's probable (or even possible)?
We know Dumbledore can speak mermish. I assume the merpeople's children are taught somewhere. So, since the lake is on the Hogwarts grounds, assuming the merpeople have been there since the school was founded, there is a fifth house. :evil:
(sort of :angel: )
*cough* everything and anything is possible in Harry Potter.

Also, there dousn't have to be a fifth house for there to be a fifth founder. You see, once the fifth founder left, that house was "demolished," so to speek. Remember, according to the theory/speculaton/possiblity, the four founders wanted there to be NO trace left of the fifth founder (Centaur) so it makes sence that there are now only four houses. They completely got rid of the fifth one, and all those that were in it, are dead by now.

So not to beat a concept to death, why would a Centaur found a school for magic if Centaurs have no magic?
like i said before, Centaurs like to show off, they are a very haughty race. And they will sieze on any chance to parade their talents in front of lesser beings, humans, in their view at least.

[Wep]

like i said before, Centaurs like to show off, they are a very haughty race. And they will sieze on any chance to parade their talents in front of lesser beings, humans, in their view at least.

I actually think the opposite of centaurs, I don't think they do like showing off their talents to them. They, to me, seem to dislike Humans greatly, and I can't see them wanting to teach Humans something they know they will not acquire or really benefit from

[ComicBookWorm]

Actually, I think that the Centaurs think humans are beneath them and don't want to bother with us. They wouldn't want to found a school or deal with the likes of humans.

Also, there was this ugly and public split with Slytherin and he hasn't been eliminated from history, memory, and Hogwarts itself.

[anabel]

*cough* everything and anything is possible in Harry Potter.

Also, there dousn't have to be a fifth house for there to be a fifth founder. You see, once the fifth founder left, that house was "demolished," so to speek. Remember, according to the theory/speculaton/possiblity, the four founders wanted there to be NO trace left of the fifth founder (Centaur) so it makes sence that there are now only four houses. They completely got rid of the fifth one, and all those that were in it, are dead by now.
As CBW said, Slytherin left but his house remains and has plenty of students to fill it. I don't see why another house would have been "demolished".

Centaurs in general will not help humans, and the castle is not adapted for centaurs either (142 staircases?). However if Firenze accepted a post there, and Dobby wants to be paid and have days off, we have evidence that not all creatures are exactly like the others of their kind.

[Emma]

Of course it's been addressed, it's all anyone in the books talks about. It's why the DE's are all purebloods.
Question answered...closed.