Angel Mk. II

[Loz]

Alright, this is the place to talk about Joss Whedon's brilliant show that is Angel.

The original thread is here (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?p=1574077). It was Buffy & Angel, but we decided it was better split - there's more than enough material to post on each separate subject.

[Picko]

OK. New thread freshness.

So if they got into a fight who would win cavemen or astronauts?

[Loz]

:lol:

Whilst this is on topic in some ways, it isn't in others :p

Cavemen. They have that "primeval instinct" thing going on.

[Picko]

It's the most important question ever asked in the series :D

I couldn't help but bring it up ... again :D

[Spike]

OK. New thread freshness.

So if they got into a fight who would win cavemen or astronauts?

:rotfl: :tu:

[Charmed]

Cavemen!
*bashes Picko with a club* :p

[Matt F]

If the cavemen have clubs, does that mean the astronauts get to have weapons from their (i.e. modern) times? :huh:

[esmerelda]

I'm pretty sure they said no weapons at all.

Got to be cavemen!

[Matt F]

I don't know, astronauts are required to have a pretty high fitness level. Maybe they could outrun the cavemen to wear them out and split them up, then pick them off one by one. Better communication skills, I think.

[Spike]

I don't know, astronauts are required to have a pretty high fitness level. Maybe they could outrun the cavemen to wear them out and split them up, then pick them off one by one. Better communication skills, I think.

Astronaut wins because of superior intelligence. That coupled with peak physical condition gives the Astronaut the win. :D

[Matt F]

Oh, that's another thing: are we talking about one on one, or a group of astronauts vs. a group of cavemen?

[Loz]

Hmm, but an astronaut can only act in a way it's been trained and conditioned to - whereas a caveman has all of the intuition of a natural predator.

Matt F - good question. It's asked as a plural, but it may still refer to a one on one situation.

[Corbin Dallas]

Hmm, but an astronaut can only act in a way it's been trained and conditioned to - whereas a caveman has all of the intuition of a natural predator.

Matt F - good question. It's asked as a plural, but it may still refer to a one on one situation.
yet Spike is right, astronauhts are also taught to think on their feet and react quickly, I vote astronauts...
CD

[Matt F]

Today's natural predators don't seem to be doing too well against modern man (e.g. Tigers, sharks), I think the astronaut would have a much higher capability for wanton destruction, probably from playing videogames as a kid.

I'd say a group of astronauts could beat a group of cavemen, but a single astronaut might be not fare as well.

[Spike]

Hmm, but an astronaut can only act in a way it's been trained and conditioned to - whereas a caveman has all of the intuition of a natural predator.

Matt F - good question. It's asked as a plural, but it may still refer to a one on one situation.


Natural predator with no good reasoning skills. The caveman would have to win quickly which means he would have to get lucky. In a long fight the astronaut easily wins. He just has to wait for the caveman to get frustrated and make a mistake.

[Loz]

A group of astronauts would probably baulk at the sight of a group of Cavemen and forget all about "reasoning". They'd also probably be too wrapped up in their egos to worry about strategy either. Cavemen however would work as a collective to bring down the astronauts, and then start ripping into each other.

[Matt F]

Considering your average caveman was about 4 feet tall, I don't think anyone would baulk at taking them on. I do like tha idea of a caveman 'collective' though - kind of like the borg, but without all the gizmos.

[Corbin Dallas]

A group of astronauts would probably baulk at the sight of a group of Cavemen and forget all about "reasoning". They'd also probably be too wrapped up in their egos to worry about strategy either. Cavemen however would work as a collective to bring down the astronauts, and then start ripping into each other.
we're talking primitive men, not wolves, Astronauts are trained for the unexpected and are a cut above the rest, they easily take out primitive lunkheads...
CD

[Loz]

Cavemen had to survive somehow - and that was by working together - like animals - as opposed to working against each other - like modern man :p. Now you tell me, Matt F, that you wouldn't be bloody terrified of a group of troglodytes with bad hair and sharp broken teeth, wearing animal skins, running at you in full power - despite their stature? These were needfully muscular, strong, resilient men!

One of the great things about the uber-vamps in Buffy was their primeval power - same with the Original Slayer. Just with Angelus and Angel. Time and time again we have seen the primitive overcome the modern... then again, we've also seen that the modern eventually prevails. :D

How about we call it a tie?

[Corbin Dallas]

Cavemen had to survive somehow - and that was by working together - like animals - as opposed to working against each other - like modern man :p. Now you tell me, Matt F, that you wouldn't be bloody terrified of a group of troglodytes with bad hair and sharp broken teeth, wearing animal skins, running at you in full power - despite their stature? These were needfully muscular, strong, resilient men!

One of the great things about the uber-vamps in Buffy was their primeval power - same with the Original Slayer. Just with Angelus and Angel. Time and time again we have seen the primitive overcome the modern... then again, we've also seen that the modern eventually prevails. :D

How about we call it a tie?
I can live that :tu: afterall this isn't the Love thread :rotfl:
CD

[Matt F]

If there are 10 four foot horrors running at me, and I have 9 six foot blokes with me, I really wouldn't be too worried. Plus, I don't think you can compare physicality. No matter how tough cavemen were, I doubt they'd be in the kind of shape that todays astronauts are. These aren't your average modern man, these are the ones in peak condition.

Sorry, I was typing during the cease fire. A draw sounds great to me.

[Loz]

:rotfl:

I wonder if Picko knew when he asked that question, people would take it semi-seriously and actually debate?

Alright, I'm going to be extra cheeky here and ask the exact same question Picko asked on the Buffy thread - namely -

How do you rank the Season/Series Opening Episodes to all 5 seasons of Angel? Why are they in this order?

[Matt F]

1) Season 4 - Deep Down. Great title, Wesley's flipping out like a mad man and Angel kicks Conner out of the hotel - What more could you ask for.
2) Season 1 - City of. I love the stripped down style of the first season, the gumshoe detective work, and Doyle will always hold a special place for being having a real Irish accent (I'm talking to you Liam).
3) Season 2 - Judgement. Back when the show was still fresh and Team Angel had a great family feel. Lindsey the Evil Lawyer was a great character and David Boreanez singing Karaoke is always fun.
4) Season 3 - Heartthob - Angel fighting crazy monks, Fred at her most quirksome and it's always nice to see Angelus's past come back and haunt Angel. Plus it had a great ambiguous ending, where you couldn't really say that Angel won because James has a point.
5) Season 5 - Conviction. Team Angel take over Wolfram and Heart? :upset: Bad, just Bad. However, there were some good points, we saw the last of Conner :tu: (almost), and Spike showed up (although only for about a second).

[Giles]

Does anyone else but me notice that Buffy is more about the Big Bad and plot while Angel is about character development and dialogue. Cause if you really think about it, through Angel seasons 1-4, Wolfrom and Hart is the Big Bad really. Does anyone else agree? I havent really seen all of S5 so I think that the "Big Bad" for that season is the final apocalypse.

P.S. What's with the prefects and Admin not on topic, and even more STARTING the off topicness? Don't people usually get points for that and even sometimes banned? Please correct me if I'm wrong, because I've gotten in trouble for that before.

[Corbin Dallas]

Does anyone else but me notice that Buffy is more about the Big Bad and plot while Angel is about character development and dialogue. Cause if you really think about it, through Angel seasons 1-4, Wolfrom and Hart is the Big Bad really. Does anyone else agree? I havent really seen all of S5 so I think that the "Big Bad" for that season is the final apocalypse.

P.S. What's with the prefects and Admin not on topic, and even more STARTING the off topicness? Don't people usually get points for that and even sometimes banned? Please correct me if I'm wrong, because I've gotten in trouble for that before.
but the caveman vs astronaut debate happened on the show, we are merely paying homage...
CD

[Vicky_M]

I used to like Angel, but it got really strange and freakish with all that Jasmine thing. But when they went to W&H, it got better. Too bad it's over...

[Spike]

Does anyone else but me notice that Buffy is more about the Big Bad and plot while Angel is about character development and dialogue. Cause if you really think about it, through Angel seasons 1-4, Wolfrom and Hart is the Big Bad really. Does anyone else agree? I havent really seen all of S5 so I think that the "Big Bad" for that season is the final apocalypse.

P.S. What's with the prefects and Admin not on topic, and even more STARTING the off topicness? Don't people usually get points for that and even sometimes banned? Please correct me if I'm wrong, because I've gotten in trouble for that before.


I think you are right and it was absolutely necessary to shape Angel differently than Buffy.

Buffy is not so much Big Bad centric as much as the Big Bad is message centric. Each season on Buffy had a message. The Big Bad was the messenger in many ways or at least represented the opposite or consequences of the message.

Angel had to be different. It is very character driven. The plot and arcs were all important with the Big Bads more stationary. As you said W&H were the big bad most of the time. Angel was more introspective. Where Buffy was a message show.

That is my take on it. I love both shows and I think Whedon and co. are the greatest thing to happen to TV ever.

[Loz]

P.S. What's with the prefects and Admin not on topic, and even more STARTING the off topicness? Don't people usually get points for that and even sometimes banned? Please correct me if I'm wrong, because I've gotten in trouble for that before.

Oh goodness me! For the last time, everyone - take a look under my name... it says Professor. My name is also blue. Only those whose names are red are admin!

Why does everyone want to call me admin? I know I'm brilliant, but really!

And the cavemen vs astronaut joke was big thing about Angel or at least a small thing we could kick the thread off with humourously and still relate back to the show :p

*fades into shadows*

[Spike]

Oh goodness me! For the last time, everyone - take a look under my name... it says Professor. My name is also blue. Only those whose names are red are admin!

Why does everyone want to call me admin? I know I'm brilliant, but really!

And the cavemen vs astronaut joke was big thing about Angel or at least a small thing we could kick the thread off with humourously and still relate back to the show :p

*fades into shadows*


The astronaut could sooooo beat the caveman. :p :rotfl:

[Picko]

I certainly didn't expect the astronauts versus cavemen question to last for nearly an entire page :lol:

It probably would have some life as a Quidditch Pitch thread in it's own right :D

[Lilly Evans]

Hmm...Favorite Openings:

1. Conviction: Ok, I only saw this episode once and in bad quality, plus it's the only episode of Season Five that I've seen, but I think it was the best Opening episode. It really brought us into Wolfram & Hart and with the characters dealing with what it means to own an evil Law Firm. Plus, Spike came back to life: Always a good thing!

2. City of: The first episode of the whole series. It introduced us to the main characters and really set up the meaning of the show quite well. It was nice to see how the rich Cordelia had to live in a dump! Ha, take that Cordy!

3. Deep Down: Wesley saved Angel! He saved Angel! Love you Wesley, you rock! And Jasmine with a bucket, oh how hilarious! Connor was being his annoying bratty self and Gunn and Fred were very couple-y, just how I like them. And only a few second of Cordelia's face and voice...

4. Heartthrob: I only vaguely remember this episode, but I like how it showed us more of Angel's past, which is always interesting to see. Silly and nervous Fred was funny. And another cliffy: Darla is pregnant!

5. Judgement: Completely forgot what this episode was about, so can't have been very interesting...

[Giles]

Loz I am sorry for calling you Admin. and will not do it again. :lol:
Anyway...I wish I could tell you guys my fav openingand ending but i havent seen that manyAngel eps. but I do like it and am hoping to get seasons 1-4 before Jan. and getting season 5 when it comes out in Feb. What ep is the caveman vs. astronaut subject on, cause i wanna see it now. If i hadto choose, I would say caveman would kick the astros ***. Alright I am going to go to the Buffy page now. *Drifts Out Aimlessly*

[willowswish]

Hiya. Ooh, my fave openings:
1. City Of - The introduction and Doyle!
2. Deep Down - I really enjoyed this ep.
3. Judgement
4. Heartthrob
5. ...well I haven't seen any of Season 5 (actually I think I saw one or two eps, but neither of 'em were the opening one!).

[Picko]

Favourite opening episodes:

1. City Of
2. Heartthrob
3. Conviction
4. Deep Down
5. Judgement

City Of is one of my favourite episodes in it's own right. Much like the first Buffy episode it manages to get a good balance of comedy, drama and the introduction of new characters.

I quite liked Heartthrob, I don't remember the episode that well so it's not an all-time favourite but I remember enjoying it quite a bit. It's always good when Angel fights an old enemy.

Conviction was a great introduction to the new direction the series was taking in Season Five. I hadn't actually seen any Season Four so I was surprised by the quality of the action in this episode.

Deep Down was a nice episode though not one of my favourites. The best part about it was Angel's dressing down of Connor at the end. That was great.

It's really hard for me to remember Judgement. Off the top of my head it's the episode where Angel has to fight the bad guy in front of the jury. That was quite cool if I remember correctly.

Overall all the opening episodes of Angel are of good quality. There's none of them I really hate.

[willowswish]

What are your top 10 fave Angel episodes ever? Mine are:
1) Hero
2) Waiting In The Wings
3) Sense And Sensitivity
4) Spin The Bottle
5) Soulless
6) Guise Will Be Guise
7) Awakening
8) Birthday
9) The Shroud Of Rahmon
10) Over The Rainbow

I think that's the order...once I've seen Season 5 I'm bound to want to change it though! :)

Hero I love that Doyle and Cordelia "get together" in this episode, as I'm a proud Cordy/Doyle shipper! :) Despite my fave character (Doyle) dying, I loved the storyline, and the way Doyle died was so heroic, something I always believed he could be. Everytime I watch this episode it makes me cry! :P

Waiting In The Wings I love this episode! It's great how the characters were all sort of giving in top their emotions, but I was so upset when Wesley saw Gunn and Fred kissing, Wesley and Fred are just meant to be together! :p

Sense And Sensitivity I love how emotional Angel and Kate get. I especially love the bit where Angel says: "Okay, I think someone needs a hug." He's so sweet as sensitive Angel and it's not often he comes out! :)

Spin The Bottle This kind of reminded me of one of my favorite Buffy episodes: Tabula Rasa. I really like the characters as teenagers and Angel great as Liam! :)

Soulless Angelus is one of my favourite characters, he's just so funny! :p I like the way he brings chaos to the group when Angel was the one who held them together. This episode really shows that! :)

Guise Will Be Guise I *love* Wesley pretending to be Angel. He's hilarious! And the leather coat on him! :rotfl: This episode was just hilarious...while still having a serious side to it! :)

Awakening I'd accepted that Doyle long before this episode, and so I'd decided that if *he* couldn't be with Cordelia, Angel was the next best person for her. Unfortunately, Connor had come along and messed that all up, despite the fact that when Cordelia slept with him she wasn't really in her right mind. :p So, I really enjoyed this episode, and I was really upset when it ended and I found out it had all been a dream. I would really have liked it to be "reality". But it was a great episode all the same! :)

Birthday Cordelia's alternate universe life was good, I liked her as a famous actress. :) And Angel was great as a mental vampire. Overall, it was a great episode, and I liked the way it progressed and ended.

The Shroud Of Rahmon Hilarious! :) Well, really serious as well, but there were many funny lines in this episode. I liked Angel and Gunn fighting all the time...and the whole plot was really well written. :)

Over The Rainbow I love this episode. My favourite bit is definitely:
Angel: "Ha! I'm not on fire."
Wesley: "And we're together. (Look down at himself then at Lorne and Gunn in the backseat) And we didn't merge into some freakish, four-men Siamese twin!"
Gunn: "That was a risk? How come nobody told me that was a risk?"
Angel jumps up to stand on his seat and spreads his arms looking up at the suns.
Angel: "Can everyone just notice how much fire I'm not on?"
Lorne: "Yeah, it's a beautiful day in the neighborhood alright. Now, may I suggest we find some way to hide the car? It'll be a little conspicuous, seeing as we don't have convertibles in this world. Or you know, cars."
They all climb out over the sides of the car.
Gunn: "Wonder if this is where Cordy came through."
Wesley: "Could be.
Angel: "Let's start gathering some branches, some brush. Anything to cover up the car. Oh, hey, look. There is some over in that patch of sun. I'll get them!"

[Spike]

5. Awakening
4. Time Bomb
3. Destiny
2. Spin the Bottle
1. Waiting in the Wings

[Lilly Evans]

Aww...poor Angel, nobody's posting here anymore! Let's start a new topic, shall we?

Which character's journey did you like the best? Meaning, which change in character did you like the best, if you get what I mean...

[Corbin Dallas]

I'd say Doyle's but boy that was real quick, Wesley seemed to change the most too bad in the end, Angel get's a nod for finally getting the big Picture and understanding the Good fight is a never-ending fight.
CD

[Lilly Evans]

I would have to go with either Wesley or Fred.

Wesley was a real geek when he first came to Buffy and Angel. But we saw him grow into this confidant man, who nevertheless had issues, but he turned into this bad boy. He was still bookish, but it no longer seemed silly. It seemed cool.

Fred started out as this delicate little flower and we saw her grow as a character as well. She became more confidant as well, hell she turned into Illyria, though I can't judge that change because I haven't seen Season Five.

So yes, I think I liked these journeys the best.

[willowswish]

It's got to be Wesley. He changed so much, gradually, going from the clumsy fool to the gorgeous boss...;) Nah...I love Wes, he was great. :p

[Spike]

Does anyone else love Lorne? He was a great character!

[Picko]

As for great character arcs I'm inclined to go with Cordelia. She went from a rich upper class snob, with a horrible personality (although highly humorous) to becoming a great warrior and Angel's greatest support. Try going from Season 3 Angel to Season 1 Buffy (or even Season 1 Angel) and seeing the remarkable development in character. It's quite amazing.

Does anyone else love Lorne? He was a great character!

I thought Lorne was a great addition to the show in Season 2 - where the series really kicked on to bigger and better things. Lorne was perhaps the missing ingredient in the show.

[Loz]

Let's face it - all of the characters changed and evolved... and they all did it in gentle, flowing arcs. It was what made the show brilliant.

I think my favourite evolution was Wesley's though. I've written about this already. He really made mistakes... it rocked.

[willowswish]

As for great character arcs I'm inclined to go with Cordelia. She went from a rich upper class snob, with a horrible personality (although highly humorous) to becoming a great warrior and Angel's greatest support. Try going from Season 3 Angel to Season 1 Buffy (or even Season 1 Angel) and seeing the remarkable development in character. It's quite amazing.

I agree. Cordelia changed so much. For the better in my opinion. She's one of my favourite characters and I loved the way she went from totally shallow to deep in Angel. =)

[esmerelda]

I'm not so sure about Fred's development - her character always seemed fairly inconsistent to me. She must have had real strength to survive 5 years in Pylea, yet she always seemed a little pathetic to me once she got to LA.

The development of Wesley and Cordelia was much more realistic I thought. By the end they had changed completely from their original appearances on Buffy. I loved how the changes in Cordelia (even back when she was on Buffy) were so gradual. Wesley was quite interesting as well. It's so bizarre looking back at their first appearances - Cordy as mean and shallow, Wesley a rule-abiding geek.

[Giles]

Let's face it - all of the characters changed and evolved... and they all did it in gentle, flowing arcs. It was what made the show brilliant.
Well i kinda have to disagree....for me Angel never really changed ( unless you include the brief period he had baby conner) But I think Cordelia changed the most and became my favorite character for Angel.
I am crossing my fingers to et Angel seasons 1-4 for christmas, my fingers are REALLY tight! lol.
I think my favorite episodes are the ones where Angel has conner as a baby and is all giddy and protective of him. I LOVE it !

[clairebear21]

i think i would say Cordelia wes and angel :)
do any of u guys read the books of angel and buffy ?

[willowswish]

i think i would say Cordelia wes and angel :)
do any of u guys read the books of angel and buffy ?

I've read quite a few but it's been a while. I think I'm going to buy a few though. So that I get back into them.
Btw, is your name Claire??

[cleansweep11]

I'd say angel, and even though Giles says he's never changed, he has. You have to take him from the beginning of Buffy, as dark information guy, to the end of ANGEL. He's definetly changed. He's more social, he has more of a sense of humor, he fights not just informs. Take his attitude from Shanshu prophecy on. He's a little lighter(of course then there's that spill about killing Wes in 3 and lossing connor....and basicly the entirety of season 2..) But when you look at the big picture he's much different.

Cordelia's obviously changed which I also like but the thing is, I liked her on buffy and early angel. She's great in season 3 but she hardly seems the same cordy which I've grown to love. I still love her character till the end but her change didn't seem as gradual as it could be, she didn't seem the same person who mocked buffy willow and xander in BUFFY...I think there could have been traces at least..

Wes changed alot too. I love pompous watcher Wes(which is why I love spin the bottle so much, plus seeing old cordy and Liam) but rogue deamon hunter wes and connor-napping wes were just as good.

Fred changed alot too but I think her change was odd. It seemed kinda jumpy. Almost a few weeks into season 3 and she's almost fine again. Trapped in a hell demension,like Pylea, for five years is not something you get over that soon. I liked her transition into a more powerful her that we see alot of in The Magic Bullet, and Shiny Happy People. In season 5 she was kinda similuar to that as well.

Gunn and Lorne had the least change to me(except lorne at the end...) They're characters seemed remarkably the same through out the series. Gunn obviously changed from his on the street days but he still seemed very similuar to the day we met him(War Zone). Lorne to me never changed till the end. He was always mr. Kareoke no matter where he was.

[willowswish]

And I liked old Cordy too. Although I think she's still an amazing character in Angel. The only Cordy that I really didn't like was when she came back from being a higher being and had lost her memory and when she was evil. I just couldn't understand why Joss Whedon would turn such a great character into such an annoying one. Because, she really did annoy me then. And I liked the Cordelia/Angel relationship, but Cordelia and Connor was just so messed up. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against the age gap, my grandparents (on both sides) had almost a 13 year age gap, although each time my grandfather was the elder one. What really "scared" me was that only a month or so before they slept together, she had been his mother-figure and that really disturbed me.

[Dark_MoonFlower]

The characters that i think have realy progressed in the series of Angel, would have to be Cordelia, Wesley, and Fred.

I loved Cordelia on Buffy, but i love how she gradually changed into a very compassionate person. I also think that her loss of memory, sleeping with Conner, and becoming evil was well out of place, even though i did love those episodes, but the Conner thing was a bit creepy.

I love Wesley. I just loved how he used to be a geeky watcher, then grew into a very strong character. I even loved when he was all alone after kidnapping Conner and becoming a bad***. It was great. But i was really upset how the fifth season ended, i cried.

And then we have Fred, who is also a great character who started out like a scared little mouse after being in Pylia for five years, then growing into a strong women. I even loved her progression in Illyria, i thought that was an amazing character.

The other charcters in Angel i think didn't progress that much. Angel progressed, yes, but it was very slowly and her kept going back into the evilness of trying to destroy Wolfram and Hart (Not that i didnt enjoy that) and then becoming Angelus once again, who i love. But it just seemed that he was jumping back and forth. As for Gunn, he really didn't change, his only change really was him getting all that information in his head from Wolfram and Hart. He very slightly changed i think.

And Lorne, who could for get Lorne, he is also an amazing charcter, I loved him.:)

[clairebear21]

I've read quite a few but it's been a while. I think I'm going to buy a few though. So that I get back into them.
Btw, is your name Claire??

ive got quite a few to
like Avatar,Fearless, Haunted ... erm the summond etc
but my favs are Monster Island....and Heat :)

and yes my names claire :)

[willowswish]

ive got quite a few to
like Avatar,Fearless, Haunted ... erm the summond etc
but my favs are Monster Island....and Heat

and yes my names claire

I just finished reading Mortal Fear.
My name is Claire too! It's such a beautiful name isn't it? :p

[clairebear21]

I just finished reading Mortal Fear.
My name is Claire too! It's such a beautiful name isn't it? :p


yup i think so to :)

Mortal Fear is a good one :)
ive just finished reading the crossover book "seven crows" which is quite good.

[Spike]

The characters that i think have realy progressed in the series of Angel, would have to be Cordelia, Wesley, and Fred.

I loved Cordelia on Buffy, but i love how she gradually changed into a very compassionate person. I also think that her loss of memory, sleeping with Conner, and becoming evil was well out of place, even though i did love those episodes, but the Conner thing was a bit creepy.

I love Wesley. I just loved how he used to be a geeky watcher, then grew into a very strong character. I even loved when he was all alone after kidnapping Conner and becoming a bad***. It was great. But i was really upset how the fifth season ended, i cried.

And then we have Fred, who is also a great character who started out like a scared little mouse after being in Pylia for five years, then growing into a strong women. I even loved her progression in Illyria, i thought that was an amazing character.

The other charcters in Angel i think didn't progress that much. Angel progressed, yes, but it was very slowly and her kept going back into the evilness of trying to destroy Wolfram and Hart (Not that i didnt enjoy that) and then becoming Angelus once again, who i love. But it just seemed that he was jumping back and forth. As for Gunn, he really didn't change, his only change really was him getting all that information in his head from Wolfram and Hart. He very slightly changed i think.

And Lorne, who could for get Lorne, he is also an amazing charcter, I loved him.:)

Yeah Gunn was my least favorite character. Amy Acker's turn into Illyria was astounding. That episode when her parents came back and Illyria transformed back into Fred was chilling. Talk about acting range. Amy was going back and forth like a tennis ball in that ep.

[Dark_MoonFlower]

Yeah, i loved how she changed back into Fred when her parents showed up out of the blue, and how she was willing to change into Fred for Wesley even though he didn't want her to because it was to upsetting and disturbing.
The part that made me cry was when Illyria turned back into Fred for Wesley and said all that stuff to him, on the last episode, and after that she was so angry. Illyria cared about Wesley. If you ask me i think that Illyria was channeling to much of Fred and started to care alot about Wesley. :)

[cleansweep11]

I loved Amy's change from Illyria to fred and back again in "The Girl in Question" and "Not Fade Away". Her acting skills are outstanding. The only that really bugs me is that they never told Fred's parents about her death(Or for that matter Cordelia's....even though they were astranged they should still know). Fred's parents even knew about the deamon part of this world yet they never told them...they should have known.

[Dark_MoonFlower]

yeah i know. They should have told Freds parents that she had died. That bugged me.

Okay, i have a question.

I know Cordelia died and i seen the first half of that episode but not the second half, but anyway, how did Cordelia die? I never heard anyone on the show talking about it, really. It has been bugging me for awhile now, and i really need to know.

I'd appreciate anyone who can tell me.

[Picko]

yeah i know. They should have told Freds parents that she had died. That bugged me.

Okay, i have a question.

I know Cordelia died and i seen the first half of that episode but not the second half, but anyway, how did Cordelia die? I never heard anyone on the show talking about it, really. It has been bugging me for awhile now, and i really need to know.

I'd appreciate anyone who can tell me.

Well Cordelia went into a coma after giving birth to Jasmine. When Angel took over LA's Wolfram & Hart offices Cordelia was in the hospital on life-support.

Cordelia eventually dies in the hospital but not before helping out Angel big time.

Hope that helps :)

[Loz]

And of course, the amazing thing is that Cordy is actually already dead the last time she appears in the series.

Speaking of character deaths - I watched Hero again today as I am working through the first Season (and that was one of the few eps of it I had ever seen). I cried like a baby when Doyle died, especially once I'd seen him in several more episodes.

Don't suppose anyone else felt remorseful at the demise of Doyle?!

[Picko]

Doyle's death is just beautiful. It was absolutely perfect in every way.

I missed him a lot. He was the one thing that stopped Angel: The Series from merely being a show that just featured people formerly on Buffy. He was an original character and he was great.

[Loz]

That's exactly how I feel about it Picko...

Though saying seeing his skin burn off and then his muscles "beautiful" is not really something I can agree with :p

[Picko]

Skin burning always make a great death scene in Angel :p

[Spike]

And of course, the amazing thing is that Cordy is actually already dead the last time she appears in the series.

Speaking of character deaths - I watched Hero again today as I am working through the first Season (and that was one of the few eps of it I had ever seen). I cried like a baby when Doyle died, especially once I'd seen him in several more episodes.

Don't suppose anyone else felt remorseful at the demise of Doyle?!


I don't understand the Doyle stuff. He was a great character and Glenn was great in the role but he wasn't around long enough to make me feel that bad for his death. Fred on the other hand...

[Dark_MoonFlower]

I only seen a few of the episodes of the first season, but i liked Doyle.
I basically started watching Angel through the second season, i think. When Angel was out to destroy Wolfram and Hart.

For Doyle, well i liked his character but he was on to short of a time, that his death was not a real shocker. It was sad, but i didn't cry.

As for Fred and Wesley and Cordelia, well that was way to sad and i cried my eyes out when they died. They were all great characters. I really liked what Fred turned into though. Illyria was awesome!

[Charmed]

Bit off topic but season five will be released in Australia on February 23. The US actually gets a boxed-set before us it is released there on the 15th of February.

[Loz]

Bit off topic but season five will be released in Australia on February 23. The US actually gets a boxed-set before us it is released there on the 15th of February.

:clap:

That's still wonderful news.

I can sort of see what everyone says about Doyle - but I think the pointlessness of it is what gets to me. Why couldn't Doyle continue? Why?

[Picko]

Bit off topic but season five will be released in Australia on February 23. The US actually gets a boxed-set before us it is released there on the 15th of February.

That's a surprise. Usually we get in earlier.

[willowswish]

I loved Doyle, he's my favourite character and I cried buckets when he died! :upset: My family were worried cause they didn't know why my eyes were all red and my face was tear-stained! :p I missed him so much although I'm glad it was Wes who replaced him cause he was brilliant too. I got Season 1 for Christmas and I recently watched Hero again too! And I cried AGAIN! I cry everytime I watch it and I've seen it six times! (I know...obsessed). I also miss the Cordy/Doyle relationship, they were so great together, and I really believe Cordelia had feelings for him. :)

[Spike]

I loved Doyle, he's my favourite character and I cried buckets when he died! :upset: My family were worried cause they didn't know why my eyes were all red and my face was tear-stained! :p I missed him so much although I'm glad it was Wes who replaced him cause he was brilliant too. I got Season 1 for Christmas and I recently watched Hero again too! And I cried AGAIN! I cry everytime I watch it and I've seen it six times! (I know...obsessed). I also miss the Cordy/Doyle relationship, they were so great together, and I really believe Cordelia had feelings for him. :)


I think Doyle/Cordelia would have been a great relationship. Doyle was the Xander of the Angel series IMHO. However I think Doyle had to die. The show needed to make a statement and I think his death proved that the show had life and guts. That early and they still kill a main cast member? Guts galore.

[PadfootLivesOn]

Just because I can. Here are my favorite characters.

1.Lorne
2.Fred/Doyle
3.Cordelia/Angel
4.Gunn
5.Wesley
6.Conner

[Spike]

Just because I can. Here are my favorite characters.

1.Lorne
2.Fred/Doyle
3.Cordelia/Angel
4.Gunn
5.Wesley
6.Conner


Connor at the bottom? I don't think anyone liked Connor and that means the writers did their job. :D

I liked Lindsey a lot. He was great especially in Season 2 when he liked Darla.

[dowegetsmocks]

Oh my! So many people who adore Angel. I used to have a viewing ritual everyday after my morning routine last spring semester in College. After classes everday I'd go home and watch Angel, I'd have to watch it. Then summer came and I failed to keep up with my ritual. And then I just kind of fell off from watching everything except law and order. Now, even in college and with free time I don't watch it...because I only get basic cable.

[cleansweep11]

Connor at the bottom? I don't think anyone liked Connor and that means the writers did their job. :D

I liked Lindsey a lot. He was great especially in Season 2 when he liked Darla.


I actaully liked connor. sure he was a total pain and he slept with cordy which was very nasty...but I liked him. He was complex and suffering.. not an Angel like suffering. Angel still can be funny, he's not constantly in pain. But Connor, he grew up in a world were he was taught black and white. He was taught that there was no such thing as "'not evil'-evil things". He thinks Angel killed Holtz and even later he still feels all that pain...not that many of his actions were excusable I just think it showed a complex character. Brooding does run in the family though....Oh but I loved much more the new and improved connor of "Origin" and "Not Fade Away".

[Loz]

Connor at the bottom? I don't think anyone liked Connor and that means the writers did their job. :D


I loved Connor - so obviously they didn't :p

[willowswish]

I didn't like Connor much. I liked him at first but when he fell for Cordelia and slept with her, I didn't like him during that time, or after it. I liked him most when he was play-fighting with Angel in the alley while Holtz was watching, because he was happy and he and Angel seemed like a real father and son.

[Picko]

I didn't really like Connor initially. He was a frustrating character and well his relationship with Cordelia was slightly disturbing. Ultimately however I felt sorry for him, brought up in a hell dimension, manipulated ruthlessly by the only woman he'd loved and then it appears unable to feel the love that everyone else felt towards Jasmine.

It was a nice moment at the end of Season 4 when you see that he's finally in a normal family and that he's happy.

[Spike]

I actaully liked connor. sure he was a total pain and he slept with cordy which was very nasty...but I liked him. He was complex and suffering.. not an Angel like suffering. Angel still can be funny, he's not constantly in pain. But Connor, he grew up in a world were he was taught black and white. He was taught that there was no such thing as "'not evil'-evil things". He thinks Angel killed Holtz and even later he still feels all that pain...not that many of his actions were excusable I just think it showed a complex character. Brooding does run in the family though....Oh but I loved much more the new and improved connor of "Origin" and "Not Fade Away".


Well perhaps I spoke to soon. I hated connor and I don't know it just seemed to me that the point of his character was to create this tension and hatred. I felt sorry for him but at the same time I just didn't like him at all.

I loved the end of Season 4 when he got some peace. I thought the way Angel cared for him even when Connor hated him was great. That was the true relationship b/w a teenager and a parent.

Also I totally understood Connor's crush on Faith. I mean what dude of any age wouldn't dig her...much less a teenage boy. He stood no chance against the wiles of Faith.

[willowswish]

I was wondering, which character from Angel would you choose to have a long-term relationship with? For me it would probably be Wesley or Doyle. They were the sweetest characters and my favourite male ones. I would choose Doyle but seeing how he died...and Wesley has a dangerous side that Doyle never had.

[Corbin Dallas]

I was wondering, which character from Angel would you choose to have a long-term relationship with? For me it would probably be Wesley or Doyle. They were the sweetest characters and my favourite male ones. I would choose Doyle but seeing how he died...and Wesley has a dangerous side that Doyle never had.
Gotta say of all the woman on that show, Lila, at least with her if she was into me and I gave her reason to get jealous, well we saw how far she'd go :eyebrows: , hehehhehee, thought Fred at the very end, when she was that deamon, forgot the name, and all blue, nice but that's just my superficial side, yup, i like a Girl that can punch, and kick, and rip out my spine :love:

[Loz]

I would want a long term relationship with Wesley. I also don't mind the choices of Doyle, Angel or Spike. Gunn does not get my loving, because I could not handle his constantly fragile ego, and as much as I liked him, I cannot think of Connor as long term relationship material. Lorne? Well I don't think he'd be interested (but who can really say?!)

Wesley is intelligent, funny, handsome and genuinely caring. He makes mistakes. He isn't perfect. I like this about him.

Doyle was the same. He was so adorable. I could handle his being a demon fine.

Angel is a sweetheart. I used to hate him, I did, in Buffy. I just didn't get him. He was as boring as a doorknob. But watching those episodes now, after watching early episodes of AtS, I do understand him. And I think he's simply lovely. Minus the whole Angelus "oops, I lost my soul again" aspect, I think he'd make a fine partner.

Spike's just sexy and fun, as well as the rest of it. There'd always be an element of the strange in the relationship though. He'd want to go bungee jumping or something. He's a bit of a risk taker.

[Spike]

Fred would be my pick for a relationship of the Angel crew. I love Fred. She would be a great girlfriend. The dinner conversations would be enough to sell me on her but she is just adorable.

[willowswish]

I would want a long term relationship with Wesley. I also don't mind the choices of Doyle, Angel or Spike. Gunn does not get my loving, because I could not handle his constantly fragile ego, and as much as I liked him, I cannot think of Connor as long term relationship material. Lorne? Well I don't think he'd be interested (but who can really say?!)

Wesley is intelligent, funny, handsome and genuinely caring. He makes mistakes. He isn't perfect. I like this about him.

Doyle was the same. He was so adorable. I could handle his being a demon fine.

Angel is a sweetheart. I used to hate him, I did, in Buffy. I just didn't get him. He was as boring as a doorknob. But watching those episodes now, after watching early episodes of AtS, I do understand him. And I think he's simply lovely. Minus the whole Angelus "oops, I lost my soul again" aspect, I think he'd make a fine partner.

Spike's just sexy and fun, as well as the rest of it. There'd always be an element of the strange in the relationship though. He'd want to go bungee jumping or something. He's a bit of a risk taker.

I think you made very good choices. :D I agree completely. :) Wesley and Doyle were so sweet and Wesley had that dangerous side to him as well. Angel can be so sweet, the curse could be a problem though, as Buffy found out. And Spike, well, he's so sexy and he would be so much fun. ;)

[Giles]

Cordelia would be my choice, I love what her character has become (though not so much in Season 4 with the conner thing) she is my favorite character in Angel.
Hey Loz I don't think Lorne is gay, just a metrosexual, he did say he would go for cordelia if he thought she would go for the green. just my opinion though. do do do..

[Lilly Evans]

I would want to be in a long term relationship with, hmm, almost all the men of the Angelverse. Seriously, except maybe Lorne and Connor and the old guys, a.k.a the ones who ran Wolfram and Hart.

Angel - he's just so funny at times and I would love to try and cheer him up when he's brooding. As for the curse...I would call my good friend Willow and ask her to find a spell that would make the soul permanent, or I would convince Angelus not to kill me. Or hey, he could kill me, but he'd have to turn me into a vampire. That way we could be together forever, now that Darla, Buffy and Cordelia are out of the way! Yay for my genius and morbid plan!

Wesley - Oh, I would so go for Wesley if I was around his age! I love smart guys! Though, I would have to work hard to make him less shy (I'm talking about if I started dating him in Season One.) If I only knew him from Season Two onwards, I'd still want to date him, becaue he had that slight dark side then. And he was just so sexy with the stubble!

Gunn - hmm, he's tricky. I guess it would be fun to date Gunn, because he seems like the loyal type, plus I like his sarcasm. Though, knowing me, we'd probably get into fights all the time, because I'm sarcastic all of the time too. It would get to the point where we'd say something that would hurt the other person...

Spike - OH yes! Spike is just Spike, who wouldn't want to date him?! No, seriously now. Spike is a complex character and I would love to find out more about him as a human and his early years as a vampire. Plus, help him get over Buffy!

Lindsey - Ah, Lindsey. Lindsey is cool. Evil hand, evil hand! Nah, I'd make sure he stayed good after leaving L.A. I would never let him go back and try to take over Wolfram and Hart.

I'm so happy!!! They're going to start showing Angel Season Five here every Tuesday and Thursday, starting today! Oh yay! Plus, I'm planning on having an "Angel" weekend marathon, where I'll invite Willowswish over to my place to watch Angel 5 with me when it comes out in February. It's going to be so much fun.

[clairebear21]

Season five is great :)
ive collected all 5 seasons on video
my best has to be when Angel gets tuned into a puppet lol
and nearly eaten by err cant remember her name now but its the werewolf girl .
and seeing Angel and Spike back together again is too funny.

[Picko]

Season five is great :)
ive collected all 5 seasons on video
my best has to be when Angel gets tuned into a puppet lol
and nearly eaten by err cant remember her name now but its the werewolf girl .
and seeing Angel and Spike back together again is too funny.

Smile Time is a classic and definitely one of my favourite episodes of the season. I'm looking forward to seeing it when I finally get my hands on the DVDs again.

[Loz]

I think "Smile Time" ties with "Billy" as my favourite episode of the entire series, to be honest. But it wouldn't exist without the previous episodes obviously. You need the doom and gloom to make the hysterically funny hysterically funny.

It has everything - puppets, a mention of "'ratio Hornblower", David Fury, sweet Wesley/Fred moments. I think my only problem with it is that Spike repeats himself too often. I'd have liked if he could come up with more varied insults.

Either way, it rocks.

:D

I want Season 5 on DVD now.

[Picko]

So err ... who would pick up more girls? Angel or puppet Angel?

[Loz]

Puppet Angel! He had detachable things!... You'd just want to keep him on your bed all the time because he's soooo cute. And he's a little pocket rocket.

[Picko]

I wonder whether puppet Angel could still lose his curse because puppet Angelus is just too funny to think about :D

[Loz]

There's a fanfic in there somewhere. I wish I wrote Angel fan fiction now, because that would rock.

[Picko]

Puppet Angelus just became my favourite Angel character, even if technically he doesn't actually exist :D

[Loz]

Because Puppet Angel as a Vampire was so funny, with the eyes and the little fangs and everything. Having him also wise cracking as Angelus and attacking everyone is just too amusing to contemplate. Wow.

[Picko]

We must begin a fanfic right away! And I have to write that one where Angelus saves the world :D

[Loz]

Angelus saving the world has this amazing ironic feeling to it. Like it really should happen.

Puppet Angelus saving the world would make people spontaneously combust :D

[Picko]

It'd cause everyone to experience perfect bliss and they'd all lose their souls.

Or something similarly overly dramatic :D

[Loz]

Melodrama - the core of Angel. It's only fitting.

So, something I loved about Angel, and why I don't think of it as darker as Buffy, is that it constantly mocks itself and its main character.

[willowswish]

Puppet Angel sounds great. I've only seen episode 2 of Season 5 and I'm really looking forward to getting it when it comes out here in Belgium.
Once I've seen Smile Time maybe I'll write a Puppet Angel/us fanfiction, as I write a lot of Buffy and Angel fanfiction! ;)

[Charmed]

So err ... who would pick up more girls? Angel or puppet Angel?
Puppet Angel for sure!

[Loz]

I'm glad we all like Puppet Angel and think he has the mojo.

Now the question - would you have liked to see Puppet Spike - a la Picko's very cool avatar?

[Picko]

Puppet Spike does look very cool as my avatar clearly shows. Though I didn't care that much that we didn't see him in puppet form on the show.

[Loz]

It didn't even occur to me until I saw your avatar (months and months ago mind) but I feel slightly bereft of him now.

Puppet Wesley!

(faint)

[Picko]

Personally Puppet Gunn would've been pretty cool :D

[Loz]

Let's face it - Puppet versions of all the characters would be awesome. Puppet Lorne? Oh my yes, sweetie pie.

(snicker)

[Picko]

Puppet Lorne may very well be the coolest puppet version possible. He would've been so funny looking :D

[Loz]

With his itty bitty red horns!

[Charmed]

Puppet Spike looks somewhat ugly though. They messed with his cheekbones and chin too much.
Lorne as a puppet-I keep picturing him as Animal from the muppets!

[Dark_MoonFlower]

I loved that episode. It was so funny. I laughed so hard when Spike found out Angel was a puppet and he said something to the sort of 'Your a bloody puppet!' and then Angel attacked him. I laughed so hard that I was crying. It was great.

[clairebear21]

lol yeah that was a good part

[Loz]

Puppet Spike looks somewhat ugly though. They messed with his cheekbones and chin too much.
It's exaggerated, yes - but no more than Puppet Angel's brow :D

Lorne as a puppet-I keep picturing him as Animal from the muppets!

Hah!~

Okay, a new question.

Which is your least favourite episode of the entire series and why?

[Picko]

Puppet Spike looks somewhat ugly though. They messed with his cheekbones and chin too much.
Lorne as a puppet-I keep picturing him as Animal from the muppets!

Well they didn't exactly have that much to work with when it came to Spike ;)

[willowswish]

It's exaggerated, yes - but no more than Puppet Angel's brow :D


Hah!~

Okay, a new question.

Which is your least favourite episode of the entire series and why?

I don't like Season 4 much in general, so it would probably be something in there (except Spin The Bottle and the Angelus episodes, they were good). Or maybe Hero. It's one of my favourite and my least favourite episodes at the same time, cause Doyle died, but he died a beautiful death; as a hero. But yeah, Season 4. I didn't like it much. It was kind of a disappointment. :td: :no: :grumble: :nc: :shrug:

[Corbin Dallas]

I didn't like that one episode ,in Season 3 I think, where Angel and that old guy switched bodies, didn't like it in Buffy and not in angel either. Just one of those type of stories I never liked, the identity switch :rolleys: not a very good concept at all...
Cheers
:tu: :D :tu:

[Loz]

Speaking as someone who is featured story on Mugglenet Fan fiction with a story just like that I can't help but disagree with you Corbin :p.

Plus, I love the Lilah/ewww old man! moment. Shows us a lot about Lilah :eyebrows:.

But if you don't like it, there's nothing I can say to make you change your mind :D.

[Picko]

I didn't like that one episode ,in Season 3 I think, where Angel and that old guy switched bodies, didn't like it in Buffy and not in angel either. Just one of those type of stories I never liked, the identity switch :rolleys: not a very good concept at all...
Cheers
:tu: :D :tu:

I really liked the Angel one. I thought the old man was the ultimate sleaze and he had me laughing quite a lot. Plus I loved Angel's "Born again Christian" comment to Lilah after their encounter :D

[willowswish]

I liked that episode. Angel as the old man, and the old man as Angel, it was just so funny. And Lilah! :D

[Spike]

My least favorite Angel episode would be Shiny Happy People just because Jasmine annoyed me to no end.

[Picko]

Shiny Happy People has a nice place in my heart due purely to the first 30 seconds or so :D

[Spike]

Shiny Happy People has a nice place in my heart due purely to the first 30 seconds or so :D

:tu:

[willowswish]

I didn't like Season 4, I found it really disappointing. The only good episodes were Spin The Bottle, Supersymmetry and the Angelus episodes. It's my least favourite Season, including all the Buffy seasons and Angel Season 5, which I have only seen 1 episode of! I had just built my expectations up too high, especially with how great Angel Season 3 was, so when it came to Season 4, I was *so* disappointed.

[Loz]

I'm rewatching season four, and whilst I don't dislike it, I think some of the comments made in the season by various characters are appropriate.

For instance, in "Players" Gunn says something about it being good to get away from the turgid mystical soap opera that is his life lately (not exact words, but close).

Whilst I was first watching it, I was constantly trying to predict, and being surprised. It was fake out after fake out. But on second viewing it's a bit like an almost bad fan fic that you can tell has been written with cliffhanger after cliffhanger in mind.

It's just a little too convoluted, and there are still too many questions with aren't satisfactorily answered;
Are we supposed to regard Jasmine as evil?
(Picko and I have had many discussions on this - he was saying yes she's evil, I was saying she's not exactly evil, she's just wrong... then again I was basing this on only remembering the first time I watched it and forgetting how power hungry she was and her maniacal laughing sessions so I may agree with him a little bit now.)
What was with the beast?
What was with bringing Angelus back and then stealing Angel's soul so Angelus stayed?
The mixing of Jasmine's blood with your own was what broke the spell - but how did the man who initially attacked Jasmine have this happen?

[Picko]

(Picko and I have had many discussions on this - he was saying yes she's evil, I was saying she's not exactly evil, she's just wrong... then again I was basing this on only remembering the first time I watched it and forgetting how power hungry she was and her maniacal laughing sessions so I may agree with him a little bit now.)

In time you'll agree with me fully :D


What was with the beast?

Your guess is as good as mind. He seemed to wreck havoc for awhile and then the writers got bored of him and had Angelus kill him.

What was with bringing Angelus back and then stealing Angel's soul so Angelus stayed?

I have no idea on this point either. In my opinion Season Four had a number of weak plot points - this included. We unfortunately never find out what Cordelia/Jasmine's grand plan for Angelus is.

The mixing of Jasmine's blood with your own was what broke the spell - but how did the man who initially attacked Jasmine have this happen?

A vampire attacks Jasmine and then flees. That vampire ran into the man who initially attacks Jasmine and Jasmine and the man's blood are mixed.


Season Four isn't my favourite Angel Season but I don't think it's bad. It has many highly enjoyable episodes. For instance:
The House Always Wins - Not a classic, but a nice one off episode that really isn't tied into the very long season arc of Season Four.
Spin the Bottle - Another episode that doesn't tied into the Seasonal arc that much, but it was a particularly fun episode.
Apocalypse, Nowish - About as good as anything we've seen on Angel. Easily the best fight sequence up to this stage in the series.
Habeas Corpses - The Beast is slightly freaky and his destruction of Wolfram & Hart is really quite awesome.
Awakening - Indiana Jones type goodness with a great little cliff-hanger. It was interesting to see Angel's mind at work.
Soulless - It's great to see Angelus doing what he does best and it's great to see all the issues that group have be played out.
Orpheus - Angel finally fights Angelus and we discover more about Angel's backstory.
The Magic Bullet - We get to see Fred's strength when all seems lost. Plus the beginning is classic and we get some Fangel shipping :p

Definitely enough really good episodes for me to think Season Four was a good season.

[Loz]

A vampire attacks Jasmine and then flees. That vampire ran into the man who initially attacks Jasmine and Jasmine and the man's blood are mixed.

That is what I thought - but that never is truly explained, either in that episode or later down the track.

Also - great list. I found it tended to be the more series type episodes which I found enjoyable myself.

Also - I love the ending of Season 4. That's one of the most touching but also humourous episodes. I adore Lilah, I admit it. I'm evil.

Edit: Did you just say "fangel"? I am so disturbed by you :p.

[Picko]

That is what I thought - but that never is truly explained, either in that episode or later down the track.

It allows for independent thought. You go back and realise why he attacked her and it all makes sense :D

Edit: Did you just say "fangel"? I am so disturbed by you :p.

I was on a Buffy/Angel Forum for a while you get used to the shippy names - Bangel, Spuffy, Fangel, Cangel, Spuscilla, Funn, Fresley, Ruffy, Lesley etc :D

[Loz]

Sail me off on the HMS Fresley then. ;)

Though I think they're terribly silly names and I doubt you'll see me using that again.

Independant thought is overrated. I like it when things are s p e l l e d o u t.

[Picko]

We definitely under no circumstances put HMS before the names. That's just silly :D

[Loz]

:p Where's that raspberry smiley gone?

Do you think we should attempt to move this thread into more active discussion?

For instance, maybe we could talk about sets and camera work and things?

[Picko]

No, that'd be silly.

Observation I've made however, Spike is played incredibly out of character in Season 5 Angel. It's really quite weird how he acts on occasions.

I've yet to decide whether it's good or bad out of character however.

[Loz]

Considering it is the official text - how can he be out of character?

You also have to remember he is now ensouled (Angel/Angelus anyone?). I thought it was weird he didn't change more.

[Picko]

What I mean is that the character is significantly different to how he was at the end of Season Seven Buffy. His lines are really strange and come across rather forced in my opinion.

[Loz]

Okay, I'll agree with that.

There were moments there and I was wondering "has James read the script? the words seem uneasy from him." Perhaps it was the different environment? Maybe it was just acting - that Spike isn't all easy going, at first not being corporeal and all that.

I really do love most of what he [Spike] contributes though. I was a little annoyed he was another one who instantly fell in love with Fred. Oh I love Fred too, but it would have been funnier to me if he'd teased her more.

[Dark_MoonFlower]

Spike's character in seaon 5 kind of disturbed me. I love spike absolutly, he is my favorite character, but he was really different.
In Buffy season 7, he seemed to be all sweet and repenty, and he didn't seem to have a good sense for the kill, in part of that season. But when he entered Angel he kind of seemed strange, yes, he was angry and annoyed and afraid, but he didn't seem like the same Spike from Buffy.

It really annoyed me how he so quickly began to care about Fred though. I love Fred also, but it didn't seem right, expetually since Spike still loved Buffy.

It annoyed me that they changed him so much in this season. I have only seen the season once but did it kind of seem to you like he was acting like he used to, when he had a chip, you know like when he wasn't good or evil, just in between?

I liked most of that season, but some things were kind of off and the last episode was annoying on how they ended it. They ended it with a cliffhanger, almost as though they may make a movie or start a different series and continuing through it in a few years. It bothered me and my mom.

[Loz]

It really annoyed me how he so quickly began to care about Fred though. I love Fred also, but it didn't seem right, expetually since Spike still loved Buffy.

Yay, you agree with me! That really was so odd.


With Spike's love Buffy out of the equation, the First having messed with him during his first recovery process, and his long ambiguous relationship with Angelus/Angel (they hate each other, but then they don't because they have so much in common) - why would Spike necessarily react to his soul in the same way Angel did his? (And Angel spent a long time trying to forget he had a soul).

I think one thing they wanted (and this was the problem in season 4) was to keep the suspense going with the viewer constantly. We were meant to wonder which way Spike went. Was he good, or was he evil? Is he the Vampire in the Shanshu Prophecy, or could he win this, and therefore will he backstab Angel? Even people with souls commit murder, yes? Even those with souls can relish in unspeakable crimes.

Unfortunately it didn't work that well, I don't think.

[Picko]

I was more disturbed with how quickly he jumped in the sack with Harmony after becoming corporeal again. Surely there were better girls than Harmony around :p

With Spike's love Buffy out of the equation, the First having messed with him during his first recovery process, and his long ambiguous relationship with Angelus/Angel (they hate each other, but then they don't because they have so much in common) - why would Spike necessarily react to his soul in the same way Angel did his? (And Angel spent a long time trying to forget he had a soul).

I think it was just unusual that Angel spent decades becoming used to having a soul and Spike spent two weeks crying in a basement :p

I know that Angelus was an extraordinary evil being but Spike was still particularly evil and I just think it would've taken him longer to get over it.

I liked most of that season, but some things were kind of off and the last episode was annoying on how they ended it. They ended it with a cliffhanger, almost as though they may make a movie or start a different series and continuing through it in a few years. It bothered me and my mom.

Whilst a cliffhanger I thought the final episode was near perfect. The symbolism alone with the ending is fantastic. The notion of the good fight being shown perfectly with the final battle, the idea that the good fight is never truly over and it isn't something that can be won but something that you do because you're the only ones who can.

I can understand why some wouldn't like it but I can't help but adore something where when it ends you have visions of the hero slaying a dragon :p

[Dark_MoonFlower]

Yes, i loved the last episode of season 5, but it kind of bothered me as who died and who lived. Did Gunn survive? Did Angel, Spike or Illyria survive? Did Conner really stay away from the fight, even after Angel told him to go home? As far as i know Conner didn't really obey his father, so i think he really did turn up. The episode was great and the symbolism was wonderful, and i got all teary eyed when Wesley was dying and Illyria turned into Fred for him, it was absolutly brilliant. I loved all the characters on Angel and i really would have liked to know what happened to all of them.

As for Spike, i really couldn't understand him in Angel. Sleeping with Harmony, liking Fred, and deciding not to go looking for Buffy? It didn't make sense, he could have gone to Buffy and have come back within a couple episodes or something, but he didn't.
His soul is something different. Angel spent decades wandering pointlessly around, feeling sorry for himself, then finally someone comes to him and he realizes Buffy. But only after like what the first season he started fighting at her side, they fall in love, he becomes evil, she sends him to hell, then he comes back, and then both are like oh, we can't go on like this, and then he leaves. He wasn't exactly useful in Buffy, was he? I haven't seen season 2 or 3 for a while so i could be wrong, but it took him a long time to become all repenty.
Spike went out to get his soul. He traveled across the world to acheive it and then he goes back to sunnydale and was locked up in the school basement for months, getting crazier by the minute. His soul was a bit different. He was a bit different. Spike was a gruesome and fierce killer, but he helped save the world more then once, even without a soul. In the second season he helped Buffy with Angel, I can't remember if he did anything in season 4, season 5 he helped with Dawn, and season 7 he saved the world.
His soul was different, from Angels. If you go back you can tell that they are like complete oppisites, but very much alike, they both saved the world and had souls. They're souls were different because when Angel got his he was completely lost and didn't know what to do, while when Spike ot his sanity back, with the aid of friends, he knew exactly what he was there for and what he needed to do.

But despite all my useless ramblings all this didn't make sense in the last season of Angel, he was just to different. I just hope that if in a few years Joss Whedon does decide to do another spin off and includes Spike, i only hope that they have him more in character.

Toodles....

--Dark (Who can't stop rambling about the inner workings of Angel and Spike *sigh*)

[Spike]

I personally loved Spike on Angel's show. The Angel/Spike sibling rivalry was terrific and poignant. It allowed Angel to show his petty side and to quote Joss Whedon "Angel is never better than when he is being petty." Also I think with Spike we really got to see the truth come out of Angel about never getting redemption. Without Spike there to talk to who would Angel have discussed his murderous past with? Who other than Spike could understand the kind of guilt Angel had? So I thought Spike worked wonderfully on Angel.

As to the last episode...I think and will always think that Buffy and the slayers came to their rescue in that alleyway. I think Angel, Spike, and Illyria were all saved because Willow and the coven sent Buffy, Faith, and co out to save the day. That is my view on the whole thing. At first I hated the cliffhanger ending but in retrospect I love it. Joss allowed us the chance to think for ourselves. I always like that. I don't like for everything to be spelled out for me. Mostly I was mad about the ending of Angel because it was the ending and I wasn't going to see anymore new episodes. I also wanted Buffy to come back and tell Angel that she loved Spike more. :D

Finally on the Spike/Angel soul thing. I would say I prefer how Spike handled the soul situation more than how Angel did. Angel still pretended that he was evil and killed thieves and murderers with Darla and Dru. Let us not forget that Angel still killed people when he had a soul for a while. It was only after Darla tried to make him eat an infant that he broke down and stopped killing. Then he just did nothing but mope for a century and then finally started fighting for the side of good. Spike didn't get cursed. He actually wanted his soul and he within a few months was fighting for good. In other words Spike had guilt and what not but he didn't let that stop him from helping. The only time he killed with a soul was when he was brainwashed and couldn't control his own actions. As far as sleeping with Harmony I think that is pure Spike. I expected that one. :D Once a dog always a dog. I am not sure that he wanted to date Fred. I think he liked Fred as a friend and I am sure he would have had sex with her but I don't think he was even close to falling in love with Fred. Though if the show would have progressed I wouldn't doubt a Fred/Spike romance. Hell I would have been a Fred/Spike shipper.

One question. Would a Fred/Spike ship be called "Sped"? :D

[Dark_MoonFlower]

Ha ha....hey...wouldn't it have become a Illyria/ Spike ship.....hmmm...thats a weird thought.

I personally loved the last season of Angel, it just bothered me about how Spike changed. I loved Spike's personality of the show, he was so funny, but i kind of thought that he took a step back in the season. Maybe it just bothers me that he didn't go out looking for Buffy, or so much as tell her that he was alive....yep i am a Spuffy shipper and i am proud of it!

I agree with you on the soul matter. I love Angel and Spike both but since the last season of Buffy, i have always thought that Spike was a more couragous man, for not letting his soulless path get so much in the way that he couldn't do anything but feel sorry for himself. Angel is a champion, but it took him along time to discover that he can actually help people and maybe save the world. Really i think Angels major motivation for saving people would have to have been because of the Shanshu Prophecy. But he is a wonderful and deep character.

I like your way off thinking on the battle. Maybe Buffy and the Slayers did come to help them. I really hope they all survived, but i really don't think Gunn did, because Illyria basically told him that he would. But if they survived i hope that they decided to go with Buffy and the crew and help with the slayers. That would be so cool. Like maybe have a Slayer Academy or something.

Okay here's a question to everyone....

What do you all think happened with the battle at Wolfram and Hart? Who do you think died or lived? What do you think they did afterwards?

Okay, toodles, again.

[Loz]

I never wanted to think about it. There is no defined ending in my mind.

I said to myself "Wesley definitely comes back because no-one really dies in the Whedonverse" and went on my merry way. No grand plan for how they saved the day, no deciding who lived or died.

I guess I kind of figured that if I didn't finish it in my mind, it wouldn't really be finished in actuality.

[Spike]

I personally think Season 5 is the best season Angel ever had. I thought the Wolfram and Hart angle was hilarious and the moral ambiguity really was taken to the limit. It was interesting. That coupled with the Angel/Spike dynamic reallly makes me rank it above all other Angel seasons.

If you think about it there were so many good episodes. I have heard people say that Spike took away from the other characters but I don't see that at all. Lorne got his own episode. Wesley got his episode where he faced down his father(even if it was a robot). Fred and Wes got together. Gunn was sorta cast aside maybe but everyone else really grew and progressed. As far as Angel goes I think Spike coming to the show was the best thing to happen for his character. It was time we got to see the hero from a different perspective. Spike was the only one who could who open that door.

I think "A Hole in the World" contains probably the most tragic moment of any Joss Whedon show and that is saying quite a lot. So many episodes of the season contain buckets of ambition and humor. I think what I like most about Season 5 is that while it was very tragic at times it was still the funniest season of Angel and that is probably why I like it the most. The Wolfram and Hart stuff was usually very funny and they balanced that with some heartbreaking moments. The cordy stuff was just too bittersweet and the Fred thing was just downright crushing.

How can you not like a season that makes you want to roll on the floor laughing and then curl up in the fetal position and start crying all in the span of one hour?

[Artemis Tyo]

Originally Posted by Loz
What was with bringing Angelus back and then stealing Angel's soul so Angelus stayed?
Since noones' answered this that I've seen: Cordelia (or realy the demon thats taken over her) stole Angels sole as to keep Angelus around, for what reason I'm still not sure, I know everything about every season but the fourth. Still have yet to get the last two seasons. Their $45 here!

How can you not like a season that makes you want to roll on the floor laughing and then curl up in the fetal position and start crying all in the span of one hour? HERE HERE!! I was watching the episode where Wesly took Conner. Man I was just crushed by that one, Conner, the one thing Angel could never have finaly gets, gets stolen from him by his one of his closest freinds and then practicaly hands it over to Holtz and Sazaun (I have no idea how to spell that physco's name) and loses the chance to be a true father. Sure it all turned out ok but everyone went through hell (litraly) to get there. And the one where Doyle sacrificed himself to save all those halfdemons...on that one I admit I balled like a baby.

[Dark_MoonFlower]

I really did like the last season. I think it ranks up to the top of my favorites. I also think that Spike made the show alot interesting, even though some people say that he ruined the show, but he was great.

I also thought this season was absolutly hilarious and downright heartwrenching. I think the funniest episode had to have been with the puppets. I absolutly laughed my self to tears when Spike goes into Angels office and exclaims 'your a bloody puppet!' And then Angel attacked him. The saddest episodes have to be the one with Fred dying when Illyria was taking over her body and the last episode, like i said it was all to heartwrenching.

I absolutly can't wait to get my hands on this DVD or catching it on TV, again!

[Artemis Tyo]

I think the funniest episode had to have been with the puppets. I absolutly laughed my self to tears when Spike goes into Angels office and exclaims 'your a bloody puppet!' And then Angel attacked him. I realy loved that one to, but the demon puppets creeped the **** out of me, "ITS TIME FOR SMILE TIME" That alone gave me nightmares for a week!

[Dark_MoonFlower]

I completely agree. The demon puppets creeped me out. But that was one of the best episodes off the season.

Bye and Toodles....

[Spike]

My favorite episode frome season 5 would be Destiny with Angel and Spike dueling for the cup of mountain dew.

However I do love Cordelia's return episode a lot as well. My only gripe would be the harmony episode. I just thought it was blah.

[Artemis Tyo]

I do love Cordelia's return episode a lot as well. WOH wait a minute here, Cordelia came back in season five?!!!! When did that happen?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Dark_MoonFlower]

I wish i could have seen all of Cordelia's return episode but i only got to see like the first 20 minutes of it.
Cordelia is one of my favorite characters on Angel and Buffy. She was funnny and she told everyone the truth even if it were mean, and she was stuck up on Buffy, but thats what made it more enjoyable, expetually on Angel when we see how much she grows into a mature adult.

I really wished that she could have stayed until the end of Angel, it would have been great.

Hey what are your guys favorite characters on Angel?

Mine are, from nine as most likable are:
9) Spike
8) Conner
7) Angel
6) Illyria
5) Cordelia
4) Wesley
3) Fred
2) Lorne
1) Gunn

Well those are my favorites in order, even though i love them all. They all add a different kind of element into the series.

Bye and Toodles

[Artemis Tyo]

I still don't know when Cordy came back, tell me what episode it was after and what episode came after it. If you don't know the names then tell me what happened before and after it. I thought I had seen all of the fifth season.

[Charmed]

Cordelia returned in the 100th episode. It was called "Your Welcome".
The episode before it was "Damage"-the one with the insane slayer Dana. The episode after was "Why we Fight".

[Spike]

My favorite episodes of Angel season 5 were...

3.Not Fade Away
2.Destiny
1.The Girl in Question

[Charmed]

My favourite episode of season five was A Hole in the World. It may have been the episode which took my favourite character but it still is a brilliant episode. Amy Acker really plays this part well. All the characters and actors do a great job in this and the writers as well. This also is the only episode of Angel which can reduce me to tears no matter how many times I watch it.

[Picko]

I watched Your Welcome last night, it's really an exceptional episode.

[Morgoth]

I watched Your Welcome last night, it's really an exceptional episode.

Very much so.

[Dementor Dave]

That is Season 5, right? The one where Codelia dies?

I'm terrible with episode names. :shrug:

[Morgoth]

That is Season 5, right? The one where Codelia dies?

I'm terrible with episode names. :shrug:

Yeah, that's the one though it's with a twist.

[Dementor Dave]

I remember. :agree: It was a good one indeed.

[Loz]

Isn't it "You're Welcome"? I know it's just two extra characters, but the result is slightly different :).

My favourite episode is probably Smile Time... but my two favourite individual parts of episodes are the geeky dancing of Wes and Angel in "She", and Wesley and Cordelia's Buffy and Angel spoof on "Fredless"

[Dark_MoonFlower]

This morning i watched the last episode on season five. We had no school so i flipped on the telly and decided to watch it. That had to be like one of the best episodes on Angel, just because it was so sad and it was the last ever episode and because we didn't actually know what happens to the characters.

Bye

[Charmed]

The last episode was very good. Alot better than the Buffy final in my opinion. Angel and company closed the show fighting. I wonder what would have happened to Spike, Illyria and Angel if they survived or how they died. But its good in away it leave the door open.

[Dark_MoonFlower]

I liked both of the season final episodes. I loved Buffy's and Angels. When i first watched the last episode of Angel i expected it to basically leave off like with Buffy, but it didn't. I seriously thought there was another episode after the last one, because of how it ended. But i liked how they ended Buffy, it left off to were we knew that Buffy could now live her life as not the only chosen one.

I think they survived. But i think Gunn died. Of course they probably sustanded serious injuries, but they survived, one way or the other something helped them defeat the army of demons. I also think that Conner turned around and followed Angel to help him fight. Hey and maybe Buffy and the other Slayers showed up. I'd like to think they survived, and then maybe went along with Buffy.

well, bye.

[Spike]

That is Season 5, right? The one where Codelia dies?

I'm terrible with episode names. :shrug:


I love your signature man! :tu:

[Dark_MoonFlower]

Hey, everyone. You should all read my signature. I just figured out how to do it, so i am very excited about my creating one.

I figured since you all are in an Angel forum then you must all like Buffy...so if you do read my signature.

Bye Bye

[willowswish]

... but my two favourite individual parts of episodes are the geeky dancing of Wes and Angel in "She", and Wesley and Cordelia's Buffy and Angel spoof on "Fredless"

:rotfl:
I love those parts too. They are just so absolutely hilarious.
What in your opinions is the funniest Angel episode?
I personally think Guise Will Be Guise and Spin The Bottle are hilarious episodes on the whole, but Angel is darker than Buffy, so there are less funny episodes , more funny moments IMHO.

[Dark_MoonFlower]

Yeah that is true. Angel is a lot darker then Buffy. In a whole lot of ways Angel is so much different then Buffy. Angel never really had a season Big Bad, their were only a couple which wer Wolfram and Hart and Jasmine. And you could see the characters evolve alot more and visibly then on Buffy. Buffy usually made all the changes in people more subtle.