CoSForums Archive - Who will fall in love with whom? v40

Emma

December 2nd, 2004, 3:24 am

Old thread...Important: Who Will fall in love with whom? v.39 (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=38774)

Continue...

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The Love Thread Guidelines

Firstly, the love thread is generally a very well debated thread with many good and challenging ideas posed by our members. The guidelines being imposed here for this thread are not designed to restrict debate in any way. They are here because the thread has become an exceptional case for staff to administer.

The problem with a thread of this type is that there is an obvious division forming between those who ship for Harry/Hermione and those who ship for Ron/Hermione, plus supporters of other ships wading in with their own ideas. Naturally, tensions within this thread have increased, forcing staff to keep an extra eye on what is being said. This has resulted in many participants of the love thread sending PMs to members of staff justifying their own cases and attempting to prove the other side is guilty of causing misbehaviour. This is not helping to resolve the issue.

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Shippers

- Whatever ship you support, please remember to respect and appreciate alternative ships.
- Signatures or avatars that might potentially bash or mock other ships will NOT be allowed.
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- JK Rowling in her usual masterful way is keeping us on our toes about who will end up with who and therefore we cannot truly know until we know. We should all note that whilst we can know a lot from what we read, we do not yet know everything. Please keep that in mind

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The terms of use as laid out for this thread are non-negotiable and will be amended as and when is necessary. All new love threads created will have these guidelines posted in the opening post. At certain points during the thread, these guides maybe posted by a member of staff to defuse any potential situation.

Thank you

The CoS Forums Staff.

Version 38 (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=38139)

PrettyVeela

December 2nd, 2004, 3:26 am

Wheeee new thread! *never been here for this* :tu:

AM I THE FIRST POSTER? *dances* Score one for Heron! :p

I'd like to thank all my R/Hr shippers for making this possible. *Good Ship hug*

Much love to Angua9, you're my Cassie Claire *fangirls you like an idiot* ha! :rotfl:

To Heather Hobbit for posting right after me! Yay!

To the H/Hr shippers The_Boy_Who(Yanno?) and JBaker, thanks for making it fun! :tu:

To Delemtri for my new siggy quote! :rotfl: :rotfl:

Ok enough of that, lol

Tough one actually. I think that romantic love will be one part of a whole package that will save Harry. Harry is a charasmatic character, drawing those around to him. He binds them to him through his willingness to put his life on the line to save others, helping those, even if they don't deserve it, and just basically protecting them. He leads by example so to speak.

As a result, those around him, draw to him in fierce loyalty. The Weasleys, as examplified by Ron's atttitude towards Percy's letter, indicates that they will most definately stand by his side, through the worst of it all.

Yes Ron did show disloyalty to Harry in GOF at first, but that's not the same as betrayal.

So to make my point clear, romantic love is but merely an aspect of the greater whole.

Well I disagree with the whole "disloyalty" thing. Wormtail is disloyal, Ron was jealous of his friend and he snapped out of it and showed his loyality during the first task when Harry needed it and he made Harry's day. I smiled at the part where he defended Harry's judge scores. :cool:

But yes I do understand the rest of what you are saying. :tu:

Heatherhobbit

December 2nd, 2004, 3:28 am

Wheeee new thread! *never been here for this*
Hopefully there will not be too much melodrama on this thread.

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Who am I kidding?

Much love to Angua9, you're my Cassie Claire *fangirls you like an idiot* ha!

Coke--spit--screen! You're too funny, PV!

Island Jack

December 2nd, 2004, 3:31 am

I wish I could identify with Ron or Harry for Hermoine's affection, but I can't. Evidence for either ship aside, I wouldn't mind seeing Neville end up with Hermoine.

PrettyVeela

December 2nd, 2004, 3:35 am

I wish I could identify with Ron or Harry for Hermoine's affection, but I can't. Evidence for either ship aside, I wouldn't mind seeing Neville end up with Hermoine.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhh!!! Another Neville/Hermione shipper! *waves at you furiously*

There's evidence for N/H and if this ship happens it will be the ship that has been there since book 1 but flew under the radar. :tu:

Heatherhobbit

December 2nd, 2004, 3:39 am

There's evidence for N/H and if this ship happens it will be the ship that has been there since book 1 but flew under the radar. :tu:
Neville/Hermione is my backup ship in case Rowling really is a liar who doesn't follow basic literary convention when writing romances.

xray

December 2nd, 2004, 3:41 am

Greetings to all posters and lurkers: returning veterans and first-timers. :welcome: to the Love Thread!

If you wish to be added to a particular ship send me a PM (OWL) (http://www.cosforums.com/private.php?do=newpm&userid=12731).

Legend

H: Harry
R: Ron
Hr: Hermione
G: Ginny
L: Luna
N: Neville

R/Hr (HMS Heron) 187 Members
Abby Lupin, Adelaide, AisicsRule, Albusdaughter, Alfonzo_X, AliciaCharlotte13, Ami padme, AmmoniaAlert, Ammy_asakura, Ana Banana, Angua9, Angy potter, Anny, Archangel54, Asara, AsKPeeVes, Astaire, AvadaKedavra, AzkabanResident, BaBaKaNuSh_13, Bbfrack, BeaTorpedo, Bookies9, Burningphoenix, Camilla7, Caopotter, Carina, Cassellfor3, Charmed Cheese, Chatmandu, Chop, Clareious, Claireyellen, Claudia, ComicBookWorm, Crazyukfan2005, CreativeWitchDi, Dah, DayVirgo, DragonChamber7, Daveydee, Deedlit, Discordia, Dott, Doxys, Drker2000, DumbledoreTheWise, Eddie_Haskel, Elfgirl831, EriWren, Erodel B Mud, Esmeralda, FairyDust, Fira_Felton, Flame_of_Arnor, Freckled Apples, FredFancier, Fury, Ginnythecat, Godly_Voldemort, GrangerGal, Guardian Angel, HeatherHobbit, Hedwigthewitch, HermioneMalfoy, Hermionest13, Honeycombe, Hpfan_08, I <3 Ron, IceKat55, Into the Fire, Irised, IriSka, Irony_in_blue, JacEjen, Jaffa_16uk, Jamara, JasmineFlower, Jenn_, Jennymac, JenShall, Jocelyn, Joel_is_cheese, JofpGallagher, Josiah45, Joyce13, KADH, KatieJoy, Keather, Kimothyjones, Kitkatcake1988, Krumpet, La_Ginny, Lady_Celestine, Larry Potter, Last Slayer, Laufa, Legoami, Lil Red Head, Lindy, Linzee4life, Lord Voldivader, LordGrindelwald, Lotusjewel, Lucca, Luna_Anne, Luna25, LunaB13, Lunachick, LunaGoldstien, LuvHP_001, Mad-I Moody, Madame Raden, McBeth, Madle, MadMuggle, Maeve, Magician Girl, Maydeleat Greenly, Medb, Melcb98, Miss OliverWood, Morgause, MPPMarauderGirl, Mrs_bombadil, MrsSiriusBlack, Mugglegirl07, Nakashalynn, Niffler_8882, Night Shade, Noylj, Nymphadora Tonks, Old Fart, Opsman14, Oxana, Pai, Pansy, Phoebe Cat, Phoenix49, PitterPotter, Polychrome, Potter_Mom, PrettyVeela, Prof.Blink, Prongs Sr., Purslane, Quaffle, Reda, Redmuggle, Rictusempra90, Robin, RonHermioneLOVE, Rons my mate, Rowansjet, Rowena Ravenclaw, Rowlingfan1, RWC, Sarah_Hedwig, Savoy Truffle, Shadowdancer, Sheep, Sheilajsn, Shohra, Siriusly_obsess, SoObvious, Starborn, Stephron, Tane, Tee Time, The Leprechaun, Tigger101023, Tonks442, Tonkscrazy, Troutfisher, TruFortune89, Veritas, VictorSeeker, Voldemolt14, Wannabeweasley, WeasleyIsOurKing, WhoAmI, Widz, X_thestral_x, Xray, Yue16, ZainyZandria

H/Hr (HMS Harmony) 137 Members
Admiral, Aggroskater, Andy_b, Ang3l, Angel Spirit, Angie_Crawford, ArmaDeuS, Auror77, Avada Kedavra, Aya, Babyhalo19, BabyMars, Bccatcher4, Blackwillbeback, Blue Moon, Brisa, Buckbeak, Call Me Tonks, Camsin, CandiceMarie, Canteurervan, Cayster, Chamber, Cheeseheads, Clearacell, Courtenay, DadOfHermyGinny, Dancer4life728, Dark Emperor, DarlingHermione, DaydreamJovi, Daz, Dementor149, Demetri, Dobydoo, Dottie, Earendil, Ebonyink, Egla, EllieDelacour, Eno Imreh, Enowonkenobi, Epiphany, EricaM, Eshana, Esicardi, Evil_Hermione_G, Expelliarmus, Faiza, Fate, Feeniks, Field, Flucias1, FoxyDoxy, FlyingPhoenix, GadgetGal, Garlic bread, Godrics Heiress, GeorgeWeasley, Goldensnitch04, Grace Granger, GrangerExpress, Grimly, Grinty19, Hannibal "Drax" Lecter, Harry19, Hawk 92, Hermione08, HermioneFan101, HermioneWitch28, Hope1272, Iseeubaby, JBaker, JenniferH, Jewal, Jcchic, Jordmundt6, Kingharry, Krystallia, LadyJinx, Lavender Brown, Lewis8604, LeXoR, LordIluvatar, Mad Eye Mike, Mami, Marisa, Mega, Meg2089kul, Mirtilla, Miss Harmony, MnMbabe, Moonstruck, Moonylupin76, Mugpurehalf, Mumps, Narami, Nathaniel, Neon, Nia, No_braine, Noddwyd, Percivalwulfric, Perdita, Phantomwitch, Polaris15, Potterific, Prancer, Raidergurl, Renee2004, Rjade829, Runitzandrew, Sarmi, SenoritaNatasha, Shajjn, SherlockWHolmes, Sindarella, Sousana, Sirius83, Solomon, Spikey, Spiral, Tchen56, The_5th_Marauder, The_Boy_Who_, TheCruciatus, ThePhoenixEffect, Tkdgirl555, Toltec 7, Trabb, Ts7200, Turambar, V@sh, Warwizard, Willowtree06, XanderTheMighty, Zigwiwi

H/G (HMS Chocolate) 107 Members
Abby Lupin, Adelaide, Albusdaughter, Alfonzo_X, AliciaCharlotte13, Ana Baedlit, Archangel54, Arcturus, Astaire, BaBaKaNuSh_13, Bbfrack, Burningphoenix, Caopotter, Cassellfor3, Charmed Cheese, Chatmandu, Clareious, ComicBookWorm, CreativeWitchDi, Dah, Discordia, Dott, Doxys, Duckboy, DumbledoreTheWise, Eddie_Haskel, Elfgirl831, FairyDust, FireLass, Flame_of_Arnor, Foxy1770831, Freckled Apples, FredFancier, Fury, Gily Ann, Ginevera Weasly, Ginny88, Ginnythecat, Green_ginevra, GryffindorGr, Guardian Angel, Hagridmaydie, Hawkeye, Hedwigthewitch, Hpfan_08, I <3 Ron, IceKat55, Into the Fire, Irised, IriSka, Irony_in_blue, JakeOfRavenclaw, JasmineFlower, Jennymac, JenShall, Jocelyn, Joel_is_cheese, Josiah45, Kärlek_HP, Katarzyna, KatieJoy, Keather, Krumpet, Lady_Celestine, Lindy, Linzee4life, LordGrindelwald, Lunachick, LunaGoldstien, Madam Poppy, MadMuggle, Magician Girl, Maeve, Miss OliverWood, Morgause, MPPMarauderGirl, Mrs_bombadil, MrsSiriusBlack, Noylj, Nymphadora Tonks, Old Fart, Oldmuggle, Pansy, PitterPotter, Polychrome , Potter_Mom, PrettyVeela, Prongs Sr., Quaffle, Reda, Rowena Ravenclaw, Rowlingfan1, RWC, Samoht, Siriusly_obsess, SoObvious, Star14, Tee Time, Terrilein, The Leprechaun, Tigger101023, Tonks442, Veritas, WeasleyIsOurKing, Widz, Xray

H/L (HMS Moonlight) 27 Members
AisicsRule, Ami padme, AsKPeeVes, Drker2000, EriWren, Fenellaevangela, Hpcrazybillybob, Joyce13, Luna_Anne, Luna25, LunaB13, LunaGirl, McBeth, Maeve, Night Shade, OceanBlueRose, Potterfied, Rattan, RonHermioneLOVE, Rons my mate, RosetteDelacour, Rowansjet, Rowlingfan1, Tristessa, TruFortune89, VictorSeeker, X_thestral_x, ZainyZandria

R/L (HMS Red Moon) 23 Members
Archidemes, Avada Kedavra, CandiceMarie, DadOfHermyGinny, Dementor149, Dobydoo, Esicardi, Fate, Field, GadgetGal, Godrics Heiress, GryffindorGr, Hawk 92, Hope1272, JenniferH, Jordmundt6, Krystilla, Moonstruck, Mugpurehalf, Phantomwitch, Red_fairy, The_5th_Marauder, XanderTheMighty

R->Hr->H* (HMS Firebolt) 2 members
Insanity, Oliveros

N/G (HMS Signs) 17 Members
AisicsRule, Avada Kedavra, Dobydoo, Hawk 92, Jordmundt6, Joyce13, Luna_Anne, Luna25, LunaB13, McBeth, Phantomwitch, Ron's my mate, Rowansjet, Sindarella, Sousana, TruFortune89, XanderTheMighty, X_thestral_x

N/L (HMS Gibbous Moon) 7 Members
BaBaKaNuSh_13, ComicBookWorm, Flame_of_Arnor, Jocelyn, LunaGoldstien, Noylj, WeasleyIsOurKing, Xray

Neutral (HMS Plato) 15 Members
Alci, Barbara Kennedy, CaseyAlthea, Cerebus, Chickadee, Cynismus, DeNiZeN989, DougJohnston, Drusilla, Hagrid_Is_A_Oaf, Haycheng, Ilovesirius18, Mierin42, Rightstuff, SwordofHope

Notes:

ship is short for relationship.
I only keep track of some mainstream trio ships.
Neutral means you're either undecided or support no ship at all
New entries (since the start of the current thread) are in italics.
Join as many ships as you like as long as they are not contradicting.
HMS stands for Her Majesty's Ship or His Majesty's Ship, depending on whether there is a king or queen at the head of British government. All ships in the British Royal Navy have this before their name (e.g. HMS Victory). Other countries use similar labels. In the United States it's USS (United States Ship). Since Britain is the setting for the books we have adopted this for our own relationships.
Heron: derived from Hermion & Ron
Chocolate: named for the "chocolate in the library" scene with Harry and Ginny.
Harmony: derived from Harry & Hermione
*HMS Firebolt is a special ship. Ron likes Hermione; Hermione likes Harry. It is completely unrequited.
Red Moon: named for the color of Ron's hair and Luna (moon).
Gibbous Moon: Gibbous Moon is one that is not quite full; a three-quarter moon.
canon: The official version-- any information about the plot, characters, or world of Harry Potter coming from the books or from Rowling herself.

xray

Avada Kedavra

December 2nd, 2004, 3:42 am

Neville/Hermione is my backup ship in case Rowling really is a liar who doesn't follow basic literary convention when writing romances.

Word.

Of course, my primary ship is H/Hr, but you know, I tend to agree with Neville and Hermione; it makes decent sense. I think Hermione is the patient type, something that Neville desperately needs in a girl. Plus, Hermione probably respects his courage demonstrated in asking her to the Yule Ball :tu:

But since I believe in H/Hr, N/Hr is probably not going to happen :evil:

:scared: Whoa. Lots more Herons than when I last checked that list out!

Heatherhobbit

December 2nd, 2004, 3:47 am

:scared: Whoa. Lots more Herons than when I last checked that list out!
People are coming to their senses. :p

Okay, who wants to start some debate? The first page of posts in a new thread always consists of people being silly.

Why don't we try basing our debate on canon this time. What do y'all think?

Angua9

December 2nd, 2004, 3:48 am

I do not believe that saying "Wow, these characters are like those characters; the same things are going to happen!" leads to an enrichment of our experiences. I also do not believe it is logical.
I don't like that much, either. But I love "Wow, this plotline (or this thematic treatment, or this symbolic reference) seems to be like the one in Tale of Two Cities (or Little White Horse or some other book Jo loves); I wonder if it will follow a similar pattern?" I personally find it difficult-verging-on-impossible to analyze the character interrelations without comparing them to similar character interrelations in other books. If you correctly identify Draco Malfoy as a "peer rival" in the manner of Flashman or Carmelita Spats, that can give you a lot of insight as to what is and isn't likely to happen with Draco.

I know that some people get really steamed by the literature comparisons, but I love them. The relationship of Sam to Frodo does form a pattern that I think can give useful insight into the relationship of Ron to Harry (comparing and contrasting). And Jo herself has acknowledged a small amount of influence from Tolkien (*frantically looks for quote*).

On the other hand, I strongly suspect Harry *will* get a girl.

She obviously was willing to be definitive about one of Harry's potential LIs--she ruled one out...IF Hermione is not going to be one, why not be willing to rule her out too?
You make some very good points! Something that I don't see mentioned often is that JKR was willing to say Cho wouldn't be Harry's ultimate love interest even before GoF came out. She told us that the person Harry would fall for in GoF would be his "wrong person" and that he would have "plenty of time to change his mind." The time period when she was giving all this information about who Harry wouldn't end up with is the same period when she was saying "no, they're very platonic friends" and "d'you really think they're suited?" about Harry and Hermione.

I think JKR was simply more forthcoming about romance back then before she discovered the Internet and "the arguments," which she enjoys. I also think that if the apparent R/Hr romance wasn't going to work out that JKR would signal us that it won't, just like she signaled that Harry/Cho wasn't going to work out. But instead -- by saying things like "something's going on" and "Ron would like to know that" and "there's more tension there" --- she's encouraging us to think "lo, they will snog!" And that's not to even mention what she's allowed the movie people to say.

You are the author of a best-selling series. You came out with book 7 of the series about 6 months ago, and now everyone wants to know about book 8 (the last book). The following things are important to the plot and end of your series:
Who will die
Who will live
Who will win
Who will lose
Who will fall in love with whom
What certain clues throughout the first 6 books meant

When asked these questions, would you give the straight answers, knowing that it would give everything away, or would you make your audience happy by answering but giving a misleading answer at the same time, so as not to reveal the plot and end of the entire series?
Neither. I would do as JKR does and say "do you really, really think I'm going to answer that?"

I would not give away anything I wanted to keep secret, and I definitely wouldn't "make my audience happy" by seeming to promise a romance that I know isn't going to happen. That's just cruel.

Harry has only commented on the following girls being pretty: Cho, Fleur, and Hermione during the yule ball.
*tries to stifle correcting-people thing*
*fails*
Well... actually, there are a few more than that. Parvati and Padma, for instance, and Roger Davies's date at Madam Puddifoot's. Also, adults like Narcissa Malfoy, Madam Rosmerta, and Bellatrix Lestrange (when younger).

Mind showing me where the book says she's excited? I've got my book right in front of me and it says she's enjoying herself. Same league as excited, but not nearly like it.
It TWICE says she is "beaming." I'm trying to imagine how you could think that Parvati, all dressed up in her shocking pink robes and gold bracelets and gold-plaited hair, being one of the four "star" couple of the evening with everyone looking at her, at her (we suspect) first-ever grown-up dance isn't excited. I mean, look at her giggly reaction to just the announcement of the Yule Ball!

Besides, we know that Hogwarts girls in general were excited about the Yule Ball:

Girls giggling and whispering in the corridors, girls shrieking with laughter as boys passed them, girls excitedly comparing notes on what they were going to wear on Christmas night...
Parvati is exactly this type of giggly girl.

Exactly who or what the Weird Sisters were Harry didn't know, never having had access to a wizard's wireless, but he deduced from the wild excitement of those who had grown up listening to the WWN (Wizarding Wireless Network) that they were a very famous musical group.
Parvati, of course, is one of those who has grown up listening to the WWN.

Please. The girl was excited.

Manhandling????? Where is that???
Mandhandle (http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/manhandle?view=uk): handle roughly by dragging or pushing.

When Hermione drags Harry backwards by his shirt collar or pushes him hard in the back, forcing him through a door, she is manhandling him. Fred and George are manhandling Percy when they pin his arms with a sweater and frogmarch him from the room.

My little brother does what Hermione did to Harry in the book, but I don't find it annoying (most of the time, depends on what I'm doing at the momment).
You're very tolerant if you don't get annoyed by being pushed hard in the back and forced through a doorway.

In OOTP, Harry was a very angry and being very idiotic toward everyone! Not just Hermione.
Yes -- he let his true feeling show, about a lot of things. :)

I know she's bossy, but that doesn't mean Harry is annoyed every single time she is bossy.
So.... Hermione is the right girl for Harry because her bossiness doesn't always annoy him? :D

He doesn't find it appealing when it's not going his way. I believe Harry will change his mind come HBP now that he's not being an idiot teenage.
Ummm... if it were "going his way" she wouldn't have to boss him. He'd be doing it already.

The idea of Harry changing his mind and learning to love being bossed around is... strange. I haven't been an idiot teenager for over twenty years and I *still* don't find being bossed around appealing. And I wasn't an abused child like Harry is.

But he doesn't know where he's going. He doesn't realize it until he sees the painting. JK doesn't use the word steering with Hermione's scene!
He doesn't know where he's going, but he's reluctant to go there. And, no, she uses the even stronger word "dragging."

But he didn't, now did he? Clearly he wasn't annoyed as you claim he is.
Huh? We already all agreed that he was annoyed, from the "show dog" comment.

But Parvati is being an attention hog (best word I can come up with, I'm late for class!!!). Parvati is finding Harry very relentic(?) to do what is required of him. Hermione sees none of that; she's just excited about what she's found.
You seem to have this backwards. Harry doesn't show any open reluctance to Parvati (although he does accidentally forget they need to start the dancing). It is with Hermione that he hangs back, says "wait a minute," nudges Ron, etc.

Much love to Angua9, you're my Cassie Claire *fangirls you like an idiot* ha!
*sticks out tongue at the silly PV*

Moonstruck

December 2nd, 2004, 4:05 am

It TWICE says she is "beaming." I'm trying to imagine how you could think that Parvati, all dressed up in her shocking pink robes and gold bracelets and gold-plaited hair, being one of the four "star" couple of the evening with everyone looking at her, at her (we suspect) first-ever grown-up dance isn't excited. I mean, look at her giggly reaction to just the announcement of the Yule Ball!

But the book doesn't say in that scene that she's excited.

Besides, we know that Hogwarts girls in general were excited about the Yule Ball:

Girls giggling and whispering in the corridors, girls shrieking with laughter as boys passed them, girls excitedly comparing notes on what they were going to wear on Christmas night...
Parvati is exactly this type of giggly girl.

Exactly who or what the Weird Sisters were Harry didn't know, never having had access to a wizard's wireless, but he deduced from the [b]wild excitement of those who had grown up listening to the WWN (Wizarding Wireless Network) that they were a very famous musical group.[/i]
Parvati, of course, is one of those who has grown up listening to the WWN.

Please. The girl was excited.

Too bad Harry never said so in that scene.

Mandhandle (http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/manhandle?view=uk): handle roughly by dragging or pushing.

When Hermione drags Harry backwards by his shirt collar or pushes him hard in the back, forcing him through a door, she is manhandling him. Fred and George are manhandling Percy when they pin his arms with a sweater and frogmarch him from the room.

But Hermione wasn't treating Harry roughly, according to the book. The word roughly is never used and Harry doesn't say anything negative about Hermione's treatment of him.

You're very tolerant if you don't get annoyed by being pushed hard in the back and forced through a doorway.

I try to take into account the matter at hand, instead of completely being rude to someone.

Yes -- he let his true feeling show, about a lot of things. :)

I guess he doesn't really like Ron then. Harry was being quite rude and idiotic toward him too.

So.... Hermione is the right girl for Harry because her bossiness doesn't always annoy him? :D

No, Hermione is the right girl for Harry because they complete each other in so many ways. :D You must check out Portkey sometime. ;)

Ummm... if it were "going his way" she wouldn't have to boss him. He'd be doing it already.

Even if Hermione didn't realize Harry wanted it that way? Maybe Hermione's a mind reader during those times?

The idea of Harry changing his mind and learning to love being bossed around is... strange. I haven't been an idiot teenager for over twenty years and I *still* don't find being bossed around appealing. And I wasn't an abused child like Harry is.

You're forgeting that Hermione will be growing up too. JK has said that she's lightening up. Wonder what's going to lighten? (Bossiness perhaps?)

Besides, once Harry gets a clue, he won't be bossed around as much anymore (maybe just homework.). :D

He doesn't know where he's going, but he's reluctant to go there. And, no, she uses the even stronger word "dragging."

Where does it say he's reluctant to go there? His being dragged could be that he's not keeping up with Hermione enough. Not because he's reluctant.

Huh? We already all agreed that he was annoyed, from the "show dog" comment.

I was talking about Hermione's scene. Clearly, he wasn't annoyed with her dragging him down to the kitchens as you claim.

You seem to have this backwards. Harry doesn't show any open reluctance to Parvati (although he does accidentally forget they need to start the dancing). It is with Hermione that he hangs back, says "wait a minute," nudges Ron, etc.

He doesn't show any open reluctance with Parvati because he knows he's supposed to be there. If it were up to him, he wouldn't have a date at all (since Cho was taken) or wouldn't be dancing. With Hermione, he realizes what's going on, not that he's reluctant.

Edit: must bow out tonight. I'll see ya all tomorrow! :D

rjade829

December 2nd, 2004, 4:23 am

Of course, my primary ship is H/Hr, but you know, I tend to agree with Neville and Hermione; it makes decent sense. I think Hermione is the patient type, something that Neville desperately needs in a girl. Plus, Hermione probably respects his courage demonstrated in asking her to the Yule Ball :tu:

But since I believe in H/Hr, N/Hr is probably not going to happen :evil:

I agree. I think Hermione with either Harry, Ron, Neville, or even Krum, all make decent sense. I guess Hermione's just awesome like that :p It's just that to me, Harry with someone else doesn't make as much sense as him with Hermione. I guess I'm just too possessive of him :)

Happy 40th, love thread :)

IceKat55

December 2nd, 2004, 4:30 am

Neville/Hermione is my backup ship in case Rowling really is a liar who doesn't follow basic literary convention when writing romances.
*ROLLS* You have SUCH a way with words!!! :lol:

nalbar

December 2nd, 2004, 4:49 am

I am not a fan of 'shipping' but I will say this,

It would be pretty unusual for a young woman to spend the summers at the home of a young man she was not 'interested' in. Folks, they are already 'going together'! Why do you think she was at Sirius's house, for Mrs. Weasley's cooking?

nalbar

ts7200

December 2nd, 2004, 4:51 am

I'm new to this thread but since its the 40th incarnation I figure its worth a look haha!

Personally since I ever saw the first movies(which is how I got to liking HP, well that and my little brother nagging me to check it out for about 3 years :) ) I thought it was gonna be H/Hr, they to me just seem so compatable. One day after I had read POA I was like "shane (my lil bro) H/Hr get together right? It just seemed automatic to me. My biggest reason for being on the H/Hr bandwaggon over the R/Hr bandwaggon is mostly because of pure compatibility issues. Honestly R and Hr's personalities just don't seem to make sense together. While ther eis the whole idea of opposites attracting, I personally don't buy into that notion at all.

There is however seemingly some big time sexual tension between R/Hr but I like to attribute alot of it to clashing personalities, I just can't see two hard headed individuals like R/Hr working out.

Personally I'd much rather see Hr/N than R/Hr... I think at least Neville would know how to treat women better, ron just seems to be very traditional in gender roles, most pure blood wizards seem to be... I just don't think Hr would put up with that kind of **** lol.

If you are to look at it realistically H/Hr in my opinion just seems to be the relationship that would form in real life, JKR can decide to go the other route but it would just seem weird to me if Hr/H doesn't happen because it seems the most practical.

Whoa lots of rambling for my first post in the love thread lol! Let me know what you think!

rjade829

December 2nd, 2004, 5:00 am

If you are to look at it realistically H/Hr in my opinion just seems to be the relationship that would form in real life, JKR can decide to go the other route but it would just seem weird to me if Hr/H doesn't happen because it seems the most practical.

Whoa lots of rambling for my first post in the love thread lol! Let me know what you think!

:welcome: to the Love Thread!

And a big welcome to Harmony (that's the name of Harry/Hermione's ship) :)

ts7200

December 2nd, 2004, 5:08 am

Haha thanks for the welcome.

I love that signature.... That would be hilarious if once we know who ends up with who if JKR says that the award was really a clue.... I love the interpretation there :)

rjade829

December 2nd, 2004, 5:09 am

Angua9

December 2nd, 2004, 5:27 am

But Hermione wasn't treating Harry roughly, according to the book. The word roughly is never used and Harry doesn't say anything negative about Hermione's treatment of him.
The word "hard" is used.

Neither does Percy, about Fred's and George's treatment of him. That doesn't mean he wasn't manhandled.
I try to take into account the matter at hand, instead of completely being rude to someone.
So does Harry. But that doesn't stop him from feeling annoyance; it just stops him from expressing it.
I guess he doesn't really like Ron then. Harry was being quite rude and idiotic toward him too.
Moonstruck, this is a straw man argument. I never said Harry "doesn't really like" Hermione. I said he expresses his annoyance at her bossy handling of him. Harry also expresses his annoyance to Ron about various things, such as his bickering with Hermione. Harry has been annoyed by this bickering for five years, but he doesn't openly express it until fifth year. Similarly, he has been annoyed by Hermione's bossy touches for five years, but he doesn't openly express it until fifth year.
No, Hermione is the right girl for Harry because they complete each other in so many ways. :D You must check out Portkey sometime. ;)
:rotfl: Been there, done that.
Even if Hermione didn't realize Harry wanted it that way? Maybe Hermione's a mind reader during those times?
You seem to think she will be a mind-reader in the future, when she will only boss Harry to do things he already wants to do. I don't see that happening, either.
You're forgeting that Hermione will be growing up too. JK has said that she's lightening up. Wonder what's going to lighten? (Bossiness perhaps?)
I'll believe that when I see it. I've seen Hermione lighten up quite a bit through the books so far, but she hasn't gotten any less bossy. On the contrary, she is at her bossiest in books 4 and 5.
Besides, once Harry gets a clue, he won't be bossed around as much anymore (maybe just homework.). :D
Harry will start automatically doing everything right and Hermione-approved? He'll just instinctively know when Hermione wants to go down to the kitchen and head there himself? He'll never get wild ideas and charge off to save people without thinking it through first? He'll cease to be interested in whispering veils and run and hide the moment he sees a Dark Mark in the air?

That doesn't sound like Harry to me! I'll believe that when I see it too. I like Hermione and Harry as they are, thanks.

Where does it say he's reluctant to go there? His being dragged could be that he's not keeping up with Hermione enough. Not because he's reluctant.
Read the passage again. He's standing stock-still while she's trying to drag him. He doesn't move until after he says "okay" (after exchanging glances with Ron). This is perfectly clear in the book.

Then, when he sees where they're going, he stops again, saying "hang on" and "wait a minute" and nudges Ron. He's obviously reluctant. That's why Hermione has to FORCE him through the door.
I was talking about Hermione's scene. Clearly, he wasn't annoyed with her dragging him down to the kitchens as you claim.
:sad: You completely missed my point. *tries again*

1 - Harry was annoyed by Parvati's "steering." He didn't try to get away.

2 - Harry was annoyed by Hermione's "dragging" and "forcing." He didn't try to get away.

See the pattern?

You can't say that Harry "clearly wasn't annoyed" simply because he didn't try to get away, because in the other scene we know he was annoyed and he didn't try to get away. Also, remember, I cited a scene in which (I believe) everyone thinks he was annoyed and he didn't try to get away OR express annoyance. The lack of an explicit statement of annoyance is NOT proof that Harry wasn't annoyed.

We must read this scene in the context of a clear pattern of Harry being annoyed by Hermione about SPEW:

- There was a pause in which Hermione beamed at the pair of them, and Harry sat, torn between exasperation at Hermione and amusement at the look on Ron's face.

- "What are you on about?" said Ron, though Harry thought he knew what was coming.
"House-elves!" said Hermione, her eyes flashing. "Not once, in over a thousand pages, does Hogwarts, A History mention that we are all colluding in the oppression of a hundred slaves!"
Harry shook his head and applied himself to his scrambled eggs.

- She had been badgering Harry and Ron ever since, first to wear the badges, then to persuade others to do the same, and she had also taken to rattling around the Gryffindor common room every evening, cornering people and shaking the collecting tin under their noses.

- "Yeah, right," said Harry. He took a swig of butterbeer under his cloak. "Hermione, when are you going to give up on this spew stuff?"

- 'Don't be silly, of course there is,' said Hermione, and Harry saw, with an ominous feeling, that her face was suddenly alight with the kind of fervour that SPEW usually inspired in her.

- Harry stared at her. Then he turned to Ron, ready to exchange the exasperated looks they sometimes shared when Hermione elaborated on far-fetched schemes like SPEW

Yeah, Harry is reluctant.

Corbin Dallas

December 2nd, 2004, 5:35 am

FlyingPhoenix

December 2nd, 2004, 5:47 am

Just before I give my 2€ to this (you know its in fact 2.60$) I like to ask: Plotwise, what does your ship to this plot? You know you want answer that :p

JBaker

December 2nd, 2004, 5:51 am

Well I disagree with the whole "disloyalty" thing. Wormtail is disloyal, Ron was jealous of his friend and he snapped out of it and showed his loyality during the first task when Harry needed it and he made Harry's day. I smiled at the part where he defended Harry's judge scores. :cool:

But yes I do understand the rest of what you are saying. :tu:

Actually he came about after the first task; (inside the medical tent I believe it was)

'Harry,' he said, very seriously, 'whoever put your name in that Goblet-I-I reckon they're trying to do you in!' (313 The First Task).

As for Wormtail, no he betrayed his friends, by going over to Voldemort's side. Ron has never betrayed Harry but he was disloyal by not believing him, and not listening to his friend. Harry was in the wrong by not attempting to correct Ron's assumption. I am making a distinction here because IMO, there's a big difference between disloyalty and betrayal.

Corbin Dallas

December 2nd, 2004, 5:56 am

Just before I give my 2€ to this (you know its in fact 2.60$) I like to ask: Plotwise, what does your ship to this plot? You know you want answer that :p
Easy, With Ron and Hermione together, Harry will sacrifice himself for them like his parents did for Harry, it's the perfect circle. Sacrifice for love began this epic and sacrifice for love will end it. Really is the perfect way to bring Voldemort down, "no greater love can a man have than to lay down his life for his brother..." Think it's in the Bible somewhere....
CD

Hagrid_Is_A_Oaf

December 2nd, 2004, 5:57 am

Ah, another Love Thread.

Personally, I only have one opinion on love threads. H/Hr isn't going to happen. Just using Canon info from the books and Quotes from J.K.R it's made pretty obvious that they are just good friends and always will be.

The one problem I've always had with H/Hr arguements is that the evidence given to support this ship is mostly based on events in the books that you can interpret multiple ways. It's not concrete. Take the kiss Hermione gave Harry at the end of book 4 (I think) for example. This can be interpreted multiple ways. A) Hermione likes Harry or B) Hermione is just showing support for a friend in a rough time.

But the main reason I doubt the plausibility of a H/Hr ship is that all the J.K.R qoutes and responses point in the other direction.

Anyways, that's just my two cents. Happy Wednesday.

PrettyVeela

December 2nd, 2004, 6:01 am

Greetings to all posters and lurkers: returning veterans and first-timers. :welcome: to the Love Thread!

If you wish to be added to a particular ship send me a PM (OWL) (http://www.cosforums.com/private.php?do=newpm&userid=12731).

Legend

H: Harry
R: Ron
Hr: Hermione
G: Ginny
L: Luna
N: Neville

R/Hr (HMS Heron) 173 Members
Abby Lupin, Adelaide, AisicsRule, Albusdaughter, Alfonzo_X, Ami padme, AmmoniaAlert, Ammy_asakura, Ana Banana, Angua9, Angy potter, Anny, Archangel54, Asara, AsKPeeVes, Astaire, AvadaKedavra, AzkabanResident, BaBaKaNuSh_13, BeaTorpedo, Bookies9, Burningphoenix, Camilla7, Caopotter, Carina, Cassellfor3, Charmed Cheese, Chatmandu, Chop, Clareious, Claireyellen, Claudia, ComicBookWorm, Crazyukfan2005, CreativeWitchDi, Dah, DayVirgo, DragonChamber7, Daveydee, Deedlit, Discordia, Dott, Doxys, Drker2000, DumbledoreTheWise, Eddie_Haskel, Elfgirl831, EriWren, Esmeralda, FairyDust, Fira_Felton, Flame_of_Arnor, Freckled Apples, FredFancier, Fury, Ginnythecat, Godly_Voldemort, GrangerGal, Guardian Angel, HeatherHobbit, Hedwigthewitch, HermioneMalfoy, Honeycombe, Hpfan_08, I <3 Ron, IceKat55, Into the Fire, Irised, IriSka, Irony_in_blue, JacEjen, Jaffa_16uk, Jamara, JasmineFlower, Jenn_, Jennymac, JenShall, Jocelyn, Joel_is_cheese, JofpGallagher, Josiah45, Joyce13, KADH, Keather, Kimothyjones, Kitkatcake1988, La_Ginny, Lady_Celestine, Last Slayer, Laufa, Legoami, Lil Red Head, Lindy, Linzee4life, Lord Voldivader, LordGrindelwald, Lotusjewel, Luna_Anne, Luna25, LunaB13, Lunachick, LunaGoldstien, LuvHP_001, Mad-I Moody, Madame Raden, McBeth, Madle, MadMuggle, Maeve, Magician Girl, Maydeleat Greenly, Medb, Melcb98, Miss OliverWood, Morgause, MPPMarauderGirl, Mrs_bombadil, MrsSiriusBlack, Mugglegirl07, Nakashalynn, Niffler_8882, Night Shade, Noylj, Old Fart, Opsman14, Oxana, Pansy, Phoebe Cat, Phoenix49, PitterPotter, Polychrome, Potter_Mom, Prof.Blink, Prongs Sr., Purslane, Quaffle, Reda, Rictusempra90, Robin, RonHermioneLOVE, Rons my mate, Rowansjet, Rowena Ravenclaw, Rowlingfan1, RWC, Sarah_Hedwig, Savoy Truffle, Sheep, Sheilajsn, Shohra, Siriusly_obsess, SoObvious, Starborn, Stephron, Tane, Tee Time, The Leprechaun, Tigger101023, Tonks442, Tonkscrazy, Troutfisher, TruFortune89, Veritas, VictorSeeker, Voldemolt14, Wannabeweasley, WeasleyIsOurKing, WhoAmI, Widz, X_thestral_x, Xray, Yue16, ZainyZandria

H/Hr (HMS Harmony) 134 Members
Admiral, Aggroskater, Andy_b, Ang3l, Angel Spirit, Angie_Crawford, ArmaDeuS, Auror77, Avada Kedavra, Aya, Babyhalo19, BabyMars, Bccatcher4, Blackwillbeback, Blue Moon, Brisa, Buckbeak, Call Me Tonks, Camsin, CandiceMarie, Canteurervan, Cayster, Chamber, Cheeseheads, Clearacell, Courtenay, DadOfHermyGinny, Dancer4life728, Dark Emperor, DarlingHermione, Daz, Dementor149, Demetri, Dobydoo, Dottie, Earendil, Ebonyink, Egla, EllieDelacour, Eno Imreh, Enowonkenobi, Epiphany, EricaM, Eshana, Esicardi, Evil_Hermione_G, Expelliarmus, Faiza, Fate, Feeniks, Field, Flucias1, FoxyDoxy, FlyingPhoenix, GadgetGal, Godrics Heiress, GeorgeWeasley, Goldensnitch04, Grace Granger, GrangerExpress, Grimly, Grinty19, Hannibal "Drax" Lecter, Harry19, Hawk 92, Hermione08, HermioneFan101, HermioneWitch28, Hope1272, Iseeubaby, JBaker, JenniferH, Jewal, Jcchic, Jordmundt6, Kingharry, Krystallia, LadyJinx, Lavender Brown, Lewis8604, LeXoR, LordIluvatar, Mad Eye Mike, Mami, Marisa, Mega, Meg2089kul, Mirtilla, Miss Harmony, MnMbabe, Moonstruck, Moonylupin76, Mugpurehalf, Mumps, Narami, Nathaniel, Neon, Nia, No_braine, Noddwyd, Percivalwulfric, Perdita, Phantomwitch, Polaris15, Potterific, Prancer, Raidergurl, Renee2004, Rjade829, Runitzandrew, Sarmi, SenoritaNatasha, Shajjn, SherlockWHolmes, Sindarella, Sousana, Sirius83, Solomon, Spikey, Spiral, Tchen56, The_5th_Marauder, The_Boy_Who_, TheCruciatus, ThePhoenixEffect, Tkdgirl555, Toltec 7, Trabb, Turambar, V@sh, Warwizard, Willowtree06, XanderTheMighty, Zigwiwi

H/G (HMS Chocolate) 96 Members
Abby Lupin, Adelaide, Albusdaughter, Alfonzo_X, Ana Baedlit, Archangel54, Arcturus, Astaire, BaBaKaNuSh_13, Burningphoenix, Caopotter, Cassellfor3, Charmed Cheese, Chatmandu, Clareious, ComicBookWorm, CreativeWitchDi, Dah, Discordia, Dott, Doxys, Duckboy, DumbledoreTheWise, Eddie_Haskel, Elfgirl831, FairyDust, FireLass, Flame_of_Arnor, Foxy1770831, Freckled Apples, FredFancier, Fury, Gily Ann, Ginevera Weasly, Ginny88, Ginnythecat, Green_ginevra, GryffindorGr, Guardian Angel, Hagridmaydie, Hawkeye, Hedwigthewitch, Hpfan_08, I <3 Ron, IceKat55, Into the Fire, Irised, IriSka, Irony_in_blue, JasmineFlower, Jennymac, JenShall, Jocelyn, Joel_is_cheese, Josiah45, Katarzyna, Keather, Lady_Celestine, Lindy, Linzee4life, LordGrindelwald, Lunachick, LunaGoldstien, MadMuggle, Magician Girl, Maeve, Miss OliverWood, Morgause, MPPMarauderGirl, Mrs_bombadil, MrsSiriusBlack, Noylj, Old Fart, Oldmuggle, Pansy, PitterPotter, Polychrome , Potter_Mom, Prongs Sr., Quaffle, Reda, Rowena Ravenclaw, Rowlingfan1, RWC, Samoht, Siriusly_obsess, SoObvious, Tee Time, Terrilein, The Leprechaun, Tigger101023, Tonks442, Veritas, WeasleyIsOurKing, Widz, Xray

H/L (HMS Moonlight) 27 Members
AisicsRule, Ami padme, AsKPeeVes, Drker2000, EriWren, Fenellaevangela, Hpcrazybillybob, Joyce13, Luna_Anne, Luna25, LunaB13, LunaGirl, McBeth, Maeve, Night Shade, OceanBlueRose, Potterfied, Rattan, RonHermioneLOVE, Rons my mate, RosetteDelacour, Rowansjet, Rowlingfan1, Tristessa, TruFortune89, VictorSeeker, X_thestral_x, ZainyZandria

R/L (HMS Red Moon) 23 Members
Archidemes, Avada Kedavra, CandiceMarie, DadOfHermyGinny, Dementor149, Dobydoo, Esicardi, Fate, Field, GadgetGal, Godrics Heiress, GryffindorGr, Hawk 92, Hope1272, JenniferH, Jordmundt6, Krystilla, Moonstruck, Mugpurehalf, Phantomwitch, Red_fairy, The_5th_Marauder, XanderTheMighty

R->Hr->H* (HMS Firebolt) 1 member
Oliveros

N/G (HMS Signs) 16 Members
AisicsRule, Avada Kedavra, Dobydoo, Hawk 92, Jordmundt6, Joyce13, Luna_Anne, Luna25, LunaB13, Phantomwitch, Ron's my mate, Rowansjet, Sindarella, Sousana, TruFortune89, XanderTheMighty, X_thestral_x

N/L (HMS Gibbous Moon) 7 Members
BaBaKaNuSh_13, ComicBookWorm, Flame_of_Arnor, Jocelyn, LunaGoldstien, Noylj, WeasleyIsOurKing, Xray

Neutral (HMS Plato) 14 Members
Alci, Barbara Kennedy, CaseyAlthea, Cerebus, Chickadee, Cynismus, DeNiZeN989, DougJohnston, Drusilla, Haycheng, Ilovesirius18, Mierin42, Rightstuff, SwordofHope

Notes:

ship is short for relationship.
I only keep track of some mainstream trio ships.
Neutral means you're either undecided or support no ship at all
New entries (since the start of the current thread) are in italics.
Join as many ships as you like as long as they are not contradicting.
HMS stands for Her Majesty's Ship or His Majesty's Ship, depending on whether there is a king or queen at the head of British government. All ships in the British Royal Navy have this before their name (e.g. HMS Victory). Other countries use similar labels. In the United States it's USS (United States Ship). Since Britain is the setting for the books we have adopted this for our own relationships.
Heron: derived from Hermion & Ron
Chocolate: named for the "chocolate in the library" scene with Harry and Ginny.
Harmony: derived from Harry & Hermione
*HMS Firebolt is a special ship. Ron likes Hermione; Hermione likes Harry. It is completely unrequited.
Red Moon: named for the color of Ron's hair and Luna (moon).
Gibbous Moon: Gibbous Moon is one that is not quite full; a three-quarter moon.
canon: The official version-- any information about the plot, characters, or world of Harry Potter coming from the books or from Rowling herself.

xray

I guess I never offically added myself to my ships.

Add me to Heron, Chocolate, and Moonlight. I can't believe there isn't a N/H ship! :sad:

Corbin Dallas

December 2nd, 2004, 6:07 am

Wait i thought Neville/Luna was HMS the Government Stole my Toad?
CD

PrettyVeela

December 2nd, 2004, 6:08 am

Actually he came about after the first task; (inside the medical tent I believe it was)

'Harry,' he said, very seriously, 'whoever put your name in that Goblet-I-I reckon they're trying to do you in!' (313 The First Task).

As for Wormtail, no he betrayed his friends, by going over to Voldemort's side. Ron has never betrayed Harry but he was disloyal by not believing him, and not listening to his friend. Harry was in the wrong by not attempting to correct Ron's assumption. I am making a distinction here because IMO, there's a big difference between disloyalty and betrayal.

Yes I just said Ron went to Harry after the first task(I prefer during because the whole scene was the first task) and I think it's even more important that he did this after his saw his friend get hurt, so what do you mean that he "came about?"

As for me I associate disloyal with a double crosser or traitor. Like someone said earlier I don't think Ron truly didn't have faith in his friend when he said he didn't put his name in the Goblet, he was jealous. I'm glad Hermione understood that and was able to tell Harry. :tu:

JBaker

December 2nd, 2004, 6:16 am

The word "hard" is used.

Neither does Percy, about Fred's and George's treatment of him. That doesn't mean he wasn't manhandled.

Yes if you like he was manhandled, but no where does it show that he was annoyed or irritated by it.In fact, he says absolutely nothing about it whatsoever.

Moonstruck, this is a straw man argument. I never said Harry "doesn't really like" Hermione. I said he expresses his annoyance at her bossy handling of him. Harry also expresses his annoyance to Ron about various things, such as his bickering with Hermione. Harry has been annoyed by this bickering for five years, but he doesn't openly express it until fifth year. Similarly, he has been annoyed by Hermione's bossy touches for five years, but he doesn't openly express it until fifth year.

And Ron also gets annoyed with Hermione's bossiness, what's the point?

You seem to think she will be a mind-reader in the future, when she will only boss Harry to do things he already wants to do. I don't see that happening, either.

I think she'll continue to boss them both around, but will let up some over time (she already has, more willing to break the rules then before).

I'll believe that when I see it. I've seen Hermione lighten up quite a bit through the books so far, but she hasn't gotten any less bossy. On the contrary, she is at her bossiest in books 4 and 5.

I agree that she has been more bossy in book 4 but it declined a bit in book 5 (particularly with regards to SPEW). Of course, we can't forget that Hermione's bossiness has been an asset in helping Harry and Ron (we'll see how much come their OWLs)

Harry will start automatically doing everything right and Hermione-approved? He'll just instinctively know when Hermione wants to go down to the kitchen and head there himself? He'll never get wild ideas and charge off to save people without thinking it through first? He'll cease to be interested in whispering veils and run and hide the moment he sees a Dark Mark in the air?

I think he'll most certain cut down on his adventures. He paid a very heavy price for his attitude in OotP, with hte death of Sirius. The fact that Hermione warned him, will probably mean that Harry will be more attentative to Hermione's ideas and arguments in HBP.

That doesn't sound like Harry to me! I'll believe that when I see it too. I like Hermione and Harry as they are, thanks.

Well Harry in book 5 wasn't like Harry in book 4 now was he? He had never raged to his friends like that before. Having suffered even greater trauma, I'm sure that he'll be different again in HBP. They are all bound to change.

Then, when he sees where they're going, he stops again, saying "hang on" and "wait a minute" and nudges Ron. He's obviously reluctant. That's why Hermione has to FORCE him through the door.

:sad: You completely missed my point. *tries again*

1 - Harry was annoyed by Parvati's "steering." He didn't try to get away.

2 - Harry was annoyed by Hermione's "dragging" and "forcing." He didn't try to get away.

See the pattern?

I'm sorry but I read that part but I never saw Harry showing signs of irritation with Parvati.

You can't say that Harry "clearly wasn't annoyed" simply because he didn't try to get away, because in the other scene we know he was annoyed and he didn't try to get away. Also, remember, I cited a scene in which (I believe) everyone thinks he was annoyed and he didn't try to get away OR express annoyance. The lack of an explicit statement of annoyance is NOT proof that Harry wasn't annoyed.

But it's not proof that he was annoyed either, that's pure speculation. In fact, at the dance, it is noted that he thought it wasn't so bad. Not at all the attitude of someone annoyed.

Hagrid_Is_A_Oaf

December 2nd, 2004, 6:19 am

PV-You can't join both HMS Moonlight (H/L) and HMS Chocolate (H/G) because they contradict one another. Just thought I'd let you know.

JBaker

December 2nd, 2004, 6:19 am

Ah, another Love Thread.

Personally, I only have one opinion on love threads. H/Hr isn't going to happen. Just using Canon info from the books and Quotes from J.K.R it's made pretty obvious that they are just good friends and always will be.

The problem with this is that while there is evidence of Ron liking Hermione, there is no canon proof that Hermione returns those feelings. Much like H/Hr evidence, it's all speculation.

The one problem I've always had with H/Hr arguements is that the evidence given to support this ship is mostly based on events in the books that you can interpret multiple ways. It's not concrete. Take the kiss Hermione gave Harry at the end of book 4 (I think) for example. This can be interpreted multiple ways. A) Hermione likes Harry or B) Hermione is just showing support for a friend in a rough time.

LOL, can you show me concrete evidence that Hermione likes Ron, particularly in OotP? Almost all evidence for all ships has multiple reasons (or can be taken in multiple ways).

Hagrid_Is_A_Oaf

December 2nd, 2004, 6:31 am

The problem with this is that while there is evidence of Ron liking Hermione, there is no canon proof that Hermione returns those feelings. Much like H/Hr evidence, it's all speculation.

True, there is very little Canon proof for any ship. It is obvious that Ron has feelings for Hermione and he showed some signs of recognizing those feelings in OotP. The only situation in which Hermione shows blatant interest in Ron is when she shows signs of jealousy when Ron starts acting like a shallow idiot around Fleur. But as you said this can be speculated. Truthfully I rely mainly on J.K.R's quotes, some of which are very direct.

But, you've made me curious. I'll look over books 3-5 for any concrete (or near it) evidence that Hermione has feelings for Ron.

Night all

PrettyVeela

December 2nd, 2004, 6:34 am

PV-You can't join both HMS Moonlight (H/L) and HMS Chocolate (H/G) because they contradict one another. Just thought I'd let you know.

You guys don't let people ship multiple ships on here? Are you serious? :huh:

Hagrid_Is_A_Oaf

December 2nd, 2004, 6:37 am

You guys don't let people ship multiple ships on here? Are you serious?

Talk to "xray" about it. Perhaps he'll make an exception. It's just kinda weird when someone ships both ways. Imagine shipping for both R/Hr and H/Hr.

Moonstruck

December 2nd, 2004, 6:39 am

The word "hard" is used.

Neither does Percy, about Fred's and George's treatment of him. That doesn't mean he wasn't manhandled.

Sadly, we don't have access to Percy's thoughts.

So does Harry. But that doesn't stop him from feeling annoyance; it just stops him from expressing it.

Tell me this, then. If you're right and Harry was annoyed with Hermione in that scene, why then doesn't JK say so? If that is what she wants to convey, why not clearly show Harry is annoyed? After all, this is JK: Queen of Detail, renowned for the amount of detail she puts in her work. For her to miss an emotion in a scene she wants to show Harry annoyed, is quite an oversite.

Moonstruck, this is a straw man argument. I never said Harry "doesn't really like" Hermione. I said he expresses his annoyance at her bossy handling of him. Harry also expresses his annoyance to Ron about various things, such as his bickering with Hermione. Harry has been annoyed by this bickering for five years, but he doesn't openly express it until fifth year. Similarly, he has been annoyed by Hermione's bossy touches for five years, but he doesn't openly express it until fifth year.

And the annoyance will end in HBP when Harry has come to his scenes and does less things for Hermione to boss him with.

:rotfl: Been there, done that.

You must have missed some of the more convicing posts. ;)

You seem to think she will be a mind-reader in the future, when she will only boss Harry to do things he already wants to do. I don't see that happening, either.

Not a mind reader, just maturing. Like all teenagers do.

I'll believe that when I see it. I've seen Hermione lighten up quite a bit through the books so far, but she hasn't gotten any less bossy. On the contrary, she is at her bossiest in books 4 and 5.

Well, like JK said, Hermione is going to lighten up. There's still two books to go.

Q - Is this your idea of Hermione lightening up as you've said before. She didn't seem that light to me.
A - No, she will! She's a good girl. I agree with you - she's not that light in this book. But people made the mistake of assuming that my answers referred to Book Four. There are another three books to go. But in some ways - she's more of a rule breaker now. Where her convictions are concerned, she's prepared to do stuff that she's really not supposed to do. But she will lighten up. I promise you. I did.
BBC - Fall 2000

Harry will start automatically doing everything right and Hermione-approved? He'll just instinctively know when Hermione wants to go down to the kitchen and head there himself? He'll never get wild ideas and charge off to save people without thinking it through first? He'll cease to be interested in whispering veils and run and hide the moment he sees a Dark Mark in the air?

That doesn't sound like Harry to me! I'll believe that when I see it too. I like Hermione and Harry as they are, thanks.

No, you're taking my words and are twisting them out of proportion. Harry will learn to be cautious. He'll learn to think before he acts. He'll know that a mistake might lead a friend to their death and keep that from happening. He knows what his actions may lead to know. He knows that Hermione was right.

Then I guess you'll have to be disappointed, then. There are two books left to go. Two more years of growing for our fave charaters to do. It's unavoidable.

delemtri

December 2nd, 2004, 6:44 am

mrs_bombadil

December 2nd, 2004, 6:46 am

A good writer will NOT spell out every single feeling specifically in every scene!

I was reading the great review Stephen King wrote of OotP the other day and that was his one complaint...that could do with a little (or even a lot) less adverbs.

PrettyVeela

December 2nd, 2004, 6:53 am

Talk to "xray" about it. Perhaps he'll make an exception. It's just kinda weird when someone ships both ways. Imagine shipping for both R/Hr and H/Hr.

I can think of two shippers who ship both who are pretty well known in the fandom.

It seems to me that people on here do ship more than one ship. On the first page of this thread it's clear that everyone has a first or "OTP" ship and a backup or second ship in case the OTP ship doesn't happen.

Tell me this, then. If you're right and Harry was annoyed with Hermione in that scene, why then doesn't JK say so? If that is what she wants to convey, why not clearly show Harry is annoyed? After all, this is JK: Queen of Detail, renowned for the amount of detail she puts in her work. For her to miss an emotion in a scene she wants to show Harry annoyed, is quite an oversite.

Moonstruck we aren't 3 years old. I think JKR can explain a scene without coming right out and saying "HARRY IS ANNOYED HERE!" or "HARRY LIKES CHO". There are other words and actions she used to get her point across.

But then again maybe she does need to do this since this debate thread has reached thread number 40. :rotfl:

Polychrome

December 2nd, 2004, 7:12 am

mrs_bombadil

December 2nd, 2004, 7:23 am

Got a link?

sure!

http://www.ew.com/ew/dynamic/imgs/030701/stephenking.pdf

and, yes, it was published handwritten like that :)

Polychrome

December 2nd, 2004, 7:30 am

Gah, his handwriting's so neat compared to mine. LOL

JBaker

December 2nd, 2004, 7:46 am

The problem I find with many of Harmony's arguments is that they seem to suggest that Hermione knows the right thing to do in situations where Harry does the wrong thing. Yes, Hermione was unsure about Sirius. That's fair. But she also didn't understand what it was like for him to have the dreams, and I'm not sure she'll be able to understand what it is like for him to have heard the prophecy. She is good at understanding situations (and girls), but she sometimes fails to understand Harry himself.

Oh undoubtedly the dreams were horrific. They were able to push Harry over the edge, a feat not easy considering his vast and horrific background. I don't think abyone but Harry could possibly comprehend how bad that nightmare was for Harry.

No one, bar possibly Dumbledore (even then, it's only speculation) that can possibly understand Harry's situation. However, while Hermione is unable to understand this part of Harry, she is quite knowledgeable about him in other ways. For instance, she was able to reach through his anger at the beginning , when he was blasting them, she was able to reach through that anger when saying Voldemort's name, she was able to draw him out of the room at christmas time, she was able to get him to compromise, despite his extremely stressed state at the end of OotP (just before the battle).

What we see is not just Hermione getting through to him, but a failure on the part of others to accomplish such a task. Yes I've heard the arguments to counter these, but I find it difficult to believe that it's all just coincidence that she is able to say the right thing at the right time.

A good writer will NOT spell out every single feeling specifically in every scene!

I was reading the great review Stephen King wrote of OotP the other day and that was his one complaint...that could do with a little (or even a lot) less adverbs.

I agree, but to make the claim of the existence of one emotion, despite the fact that not only was there no indication of irritation, is quite the assumption and has no textual support. IN fact, at the Yule Ball, Harry was mentioned as grinning once and thinking that it wasn't too bad. These are hardly indications of annoyance.

caladan

December 2nd, 2004, 7:53 am

Hi everybody, sorry to pop in the middle of the thread like this. I was wondering if you had thought about Peeves and Moaning Myrtle developing a relationship. I think in CoS Myrtle was complaining about Peeves. But maybe there's something more.
About Harry/Hermione/Ron, it would be cool if the three of them are just friends and that's it. So nobody gets angry. :)

Corbin Dallas

December 2nd, 2004, 7:59 am

_BT_

December 2nd, 2004, 8:05 am

metr0man

December 2nd, 2004, 9:15 am

Talk to "xray" about it. Perhaps he'll make an exception. It's just kinda weird when someone ships both ways. Imagine shipping for both R/Hr and H/Hr.

What if someone was a believer in... um... "non-standard" relationships? A three-way relationship :lol: Bring new meaning to calling them the Trio. :rotfl:

fire_angel

December 2nd, 2004, 9:31 am

Hey, I'm new in this thread, but I have a silly idea of a ship. What about H/slytherin girl? It would surely bring the tension up... :p :evil:

Shadowdancer

December 2nd, 2004, 9:38 am

This is going to be a long post. You have been warned. :evil:

Did Ron think of bushy haired large toothed Hermione when he was pondering whom to ask to the ball? No.
We don't know that. We're in Harry's POV, not Ron's.

Stop taking every little thing we Harmonians post as something we're trying to use as proof for our ship, thank you very much. We are not that desperate.
All of you should knock off being so defensive and snappish. We're all supposed to be having fun, remember? So cool down a bit. :cool:

Are either Harry or Ginny happy when or just after they fight?
Which fight? The one where Ginny notifies Harry that he isn't posessed? He seemed rather happier after that one, IMO.

She has lied to us already, though it was a mistake on her part
Something can't be both a lie and a mistake. They contradict.

It just seemed automatic to me. My biggest reason for being on the H/Hr bandwaggon over the R/Hr bandwaggon is mostly because of pure compatibility issues. Honestly R and Hr's personalities just don't seem to make sense together. While ther eis the whole idea of opposites attracting, I personally don't buy into that notion at all.
Well, I'm in trouble then. I'm still too young for it to actually matter yet, but I just plain cannot see myself in a relationship with someone who wouldn't argue with me. Call me strange, but there's your real life (below) example for you. And about opposites attracting, why are they opposites? Because they argue? That doesn't make them opposites.
If you are to look at it realistically H/Hr in my opinion just seems to be the relationship that would form in real life

I think he'll most certain cut down on his adventures.
:huh: Cut down on his adventures right as we're getting near to the climax of the series? I wouldn't count on it.

enter Snape, who actually I think see's Hermione as the way he was when he was their age... and I reckon she'll need someone older...
This is a man almost 30 years older than her. Come on, this is kid's literature, firstly, and secondly, I definitely don't see JKR as a person or a writer the type to set something like that up.

what's next? Ginny/Voldemort
I've heard some pretty weird Ginny/Tom theories... :nc:

Not a mind reader, just maturing. Like all teenagers do
That is highly debatable (this coming from a teen).

No, you're taking my words and are twisting them out of proportion. Harry will learn to be cautious. He'll learn to think before he acts. He'll know that a mistake might lead a friend to their death and keep that from happening. He knows what his actions may lead to know. He knows that Hermione was right.
That's quite a lot of assumptions, all in a row.

I don't think abyone but Harry could possibly comprehend how bad that nightmare was for Harry.
Ginny might have some idea...

IN fact, at the Yule Ball, Harry was mentioned as grinning once and thinking that it wasn't too bad.
I remember, 'wasn't as bad as it could be,' not, 'it wasn't too bad.' There is a difference. And where did it ever say that Harry grinned while dancing with Parvati?

PS: Wow, 40th v of this thread. I must have missed a lot... Time to go make up for it. :elaugh:

Nathaniel

December 2nd, 2004, 11:25 am

Easy, With Ron and Hermione together, Harry will sacrifice himself for them like his parents did for Harry, it's the perfect circle. Sacrifice for love began this epic and sacrifice for love will end it. Really is the perfect way to bring Voldemort down, "no greater love can a man have than to lay down his life for his brother..." Think it's in the Bible somewhere....
CD

*resists temptation to start screaming at the top of my lungs*
*succeeds (barely)*

Harry... is... not... going... to... die!

Get over it. The trio is going to live.

And if Harry does die, then I will lose a lot of respect for these books.

I'm sorry, but I'm sick of the hero always dies or his/her LI dies. It's a stupid, drarm-like, soap opera-like device that would, IMO, ruin J.K.R.'s reputation if she used it. Can't the hero and his friends live for once?

FlyingPhoenix

December 2nd, 2004, 11:38 am

wow, been a while heh. last time i posted in this thread we were on "love thread" part 5. can't say i recognize any of you folk except flyingphoenix; i wonder if any of my ol' HMS harmony friends are still keepin it real round these parts. btw, just had to say all of you shippers are dead wrong... heh it's obviously gonna be harry and cho y'all; that's right- you heard it here first. hehehe

:lol: *put up big flag of Harmony* Yeah, still here, still not a heron nor chocolate or whatever. Its nice to see people from old days again :sigh:

Easy, With Ron and Hermione together, Harry will sacrifice himself for them like his parents did for Harry, it's the perfect circle. Sacrifice for love began this epic and sacrifice for love will end it. Really is the perfect way to bring Voldemort down, "no greater love can a man have than to lay down his life for his brother..." Think it's in the Bible somewhere....

You seriously mean it? Thats why you think JKR will write R/Hr so Harry can sacrifice himself for their love? Ah well nice, but why another 2 books? One can do that in one book but thats just me trying to be ehm open minded thats the word I was searching for.

GryffindorGr

December 2nd, 2004, 11:42 am

byFP
Just before I give my 2€ to this (you know its in fact 2.60$) I like to ask: Plotwise, what does your ship to this plot? You know you want answer that :p
Cool! Version 40 of the LT.
Hey, FP.
Ive always thought that Harry hooking up with Ginny at the end of the series was something of a ‘near” sure thing due to his strong connection with the Weasleys, and Harry not having any family of his own. I’m not just saying this that he should hook up with her because he had lost his parents, but rather that he should start his own family and that’s with Ginny. This is also true with Hermione naturally but for the reason that the evidence in my pov shows towards the possible subtle culmination of H/g, I find that Rons little sister will prove to be Harrys strong counterpart in love and romance. Ron and Hermione already provide strength in friendship. So why not Ginny in terms of a burgeoning friendship within the romance itself?

The thing with Harry pairing with either Ginny or Luna would provide that same escalating romance, and with Hermione, it would be from the friendship turned into romance. (the only thing escalating would be romance then since the friendship is very established correct?) Because this kind of romance seems to speak more of the type you see on television: Friends, Dawsons Creek, etc, it wouldn’t be hard to see it blossoming exactly like books from HDM. The trouble I see with that is that of the dynamic of the trio and the continuous “obvious” tension between R/hr. Is it obvious because JKR said tension? Or is it obvious because it’s what we see on film and the spats between them? Pardon for the length of the reply, but I couldn’t justify my h/g final pairing without seeing the strength of h/hr end pairing and what it would create plotwise to the story.

sure!

http://www.ew.com/ew/dynamic/imgs/030701/stephenking.pdf

and, yes, it was published handwritten like that :)

Thanks for linking that, mrs_bombadil, that was a fun read by Mr.King. He’s very clever in his review, and when he critiques it’s polite and constructive, adding endearing about the adjectives while some harsher critiques would say annoying. It’s no surprise that he finds OotP the better book among the last four since it appears JKR’s talents are only flourishing if that’s even possible (she's just so creative and talented :p ) That’s another thing I agree with his review, her fun in writing these HP books show and I think that makes it easier for us to enjoy her black humour. Too bad there wasn't really anything there about shipping! Darn!

SherlockWHolmes

December 2nd, 2004, 11:43 am

*resists temptation to start screaming at the top of my lungs*
*succeeds (barely)*

Harry... is... not... going... to... die!

Get over it. The trio is going to live.

And if Harry does die, then I will lose a lot of respect for these books.

I'm sorry, but I'm sick of the hero always dies or his/her LI dies. It's a stupid, drarm-like, soap opera-like device that would, IMO, ruin J.K.R.'s reputation if she used it. Can't the hero and his friends live for once?

Yes, they can. I personally do not believe that Harry should die. It would make for a very bad ending, if you ask me. I've excepted that people in this series are going to die, but I cannot, and will never, except that any of the three in the trio will die. It would be a let-down. And the kids are so young. They have their whole lives ahead of them. To kill one of them would be absolutely horrible.

ETA:
I know this is the wrong thread, but who thinks Harry is going to die? Do you want him to? Why?

terese36

December 2nd, 2004, 1:30 pm

Hey, I'm new in this thread, but I have a silly idea of a ship. What about H/slytherin girl? It would surely bring the tension up... :p :evil:

:welcome: to the thread, fire_angel. The idea of Harry with a Slytherin girl sounds, I don't know. It is possible, but not very likely. But then again, I'm sure not all Slytherins can be evil. After all, the house is supposed to be known for ambition. So there could some ambitious Slytherins who don't care at all about the pureblood issue. After all, the only Slytherins we know about are the evil ones, like Voldemort, Malfoy and his two goons, Pansy Parkinson, and Marcus Flint. The ones like Millicent Bulstrode and Blasie Zabini are mentioned, but we don't anything about thenm, exceptfor Millicent for a brief time in PoA. Your idea would certainly bring the tension up. But I don't think it will happen and Harry will end up with Luna. (or Ginny or Hermione)

Corbin Dallas

December 2nd, 2004, 2:03 pm

Nathaniel, Sherlock w Holmes,
To the well-organized mind, death is but the next great adventure. So ask yourselves, what do you think Dumbledore has been preparing Harry for?
Flying Phoenix
That is a possible way for the R/Hr ship to affect the plot, and if, as I suspect, Ron and Hermione start dating in book7 then you have your one bbok criteria, but in the end it's only an idea based on a question you proposed. Ron and Hermione dating could be just one of those things or as Jo puts it, that's life.
And yes, I think Harry has to sacrifice himself to defeat and/or Vanquish Voldemort, that is the greatest Power that Harry possess,
"no greater love can a man have than to lay down his life for his brother."
and if a sacrifice is what will be needed to defeat Voldemort, it will be done by Harry, for after all this is Harry's story.
CD

Luna_Anne

December 2nd, 2004, 2:07 pm

Nathaniel

December 2nd, 2004, 2:14 pm

Nathaniel, Sherlock w Holmes,
To the well-organized mind, death is but the next great adventure. So ask yourselves, what do you think Dumbledore has been preparing Harry for?

Dumbledore is preparing Harry to fight and kill Voldemort, and survive the encounter.

Flying Phoenix
That is a possible way for the R/Hr ship to affect the plot, and if, as I suspect, Ron and Hermione start dating in book7 then you have your one bbok criteria, but in the end it's only an idea based on a question you proposed. Ron and Hermione dating could be just one of those things or as Jo puts it, that's life.
And yes, I think Harry has to sacrifice himself to defeat and/or Vanquish Voldemort, that is the greatest Power that Harry possess,
"no greater love can a man have than to lay down his life for his brother."
and if a sacrifice is what will be needed to defeat Voldemort, it will be done by Harry, for after all this is Harry's story.
CD

If this is where J.K.R. is truly going, then I no longer want to read Harry Potter.

EricaM

December 2nd, 2004, 2:16 pm

Wait i thought Neville/Luna was HMS the Government Stole my Toad?
CD

I kind of like the ring of HMS I'm too sexy for my toad for a Neville ship

:D

Corbin Dallas

December 2nd, 2004, 2:26 pm

Dumbledore is preparing Harry to fight and kill Voldemort, and survive the encounter.

If this is where J.K.R. is truly going, then I no longer want to read Harry Potter.
Did you not seriously consider this may well be Harry's fate? And if survival was the most important option, then why go through these trials at all, Harry is being prepared to follow his mother's example if necessary, Harry is being trained to readily accept that death is our final fate and though he does not fear death, he has accepted it only once, when Voldemort possessed him and he could see Sirius again, but this is a discussion for another thread...
CD
PS:
I kind of like the ring of HMS I'm too sexy for my toad for a Neville ship
I like that one :D

EricaM

December 2nd, 2004, 2:30 pm

We're at number 40 already! Wow. The love lives of HP characters certainly attracts our attention. Anyway, I really hope what I ship comes t be. And judging from all those hints Rowling has given us, Heron has the most potential of happening. All those times when Ron gets angry on Hermione's behalf, or when he got worked up over Krum taking Hermione to the Yule Ball, certainly points toward Heron's direction. No offense to those who ship Harmony and Red Moon.

The majority of things that point toward Heron's direction are, in point of fact, R->Hr. Not saying that there isn't potential for R/Hr, just that most of what's given as evidence is one-directional and so not really evidence of R/Hr.

If JKR were writing R/Hr I'd have to wonder why the stalling in OotP? It seems to me that the behaviour JKR gave Hermione in OotP does not bode well for R/Hr.

ETA:
I sometimes feel that JKR is setting up one of the trio for 'snuffing it'. It could just as easily by Ron (Die, Ron, die! stuff of canon). It could be Hermione. I can see her becoming a ghost, not because she's afraid to 'move on' but because she'd feel that Harry (and Ron?) would still need her - can't you just picture her haunting the Hogwarts library ;). As for Harry, it would make for a bittersweet conclusion. On the one hand Harry dying after a short life dominated by trials and tribulations, however, he would be reunited with his parents again.

JBaker

December 2nd, 2004, 2:32 pm

delemtri

December 2nd, 2004, 2:34 pm

If this is where J.K.R. is truly going, then I no longer want to read Harry Potter.

I am tired of people saying *terrible* things like that. This is the *worst possible thing* that you can say.

mrs_bombadil

December 2nd, 2004, 2:40 pm

CD, I think that Harry having to sacrifice himself, would be a horrible ending. After all, look at all he has gone through, only to die at the end? Not the most positive of messages.

Well...JKR has said she's not trying to write a "message" book but the best story she can.

I think it would do us all good not to prejudge and say "if" _____________ thing I don't want to happen (be it a ship or a particular dealth) happens, then I won't read/like it/etc".

Let's give the lady some credit. Whatever she does will be to serve what she wants to accomplish with the story. The more we have those preconceived notions, the less likely we will be to experience it in an open way (self-fulfilling prophecy, if you will :D )

P.S. I also think there is much to point to Harry showing "mercy" to Voldemort and that being unbearable for him. But, again, this isn't that thread...

P.P.S. As to how R/Hr could serve the plot? Well, if it's supposed to ... who knows? The lady continually suprises me.

Corbin Dallas

December 2nd, 2004, 2:40 pm

Yes we know about Ron's interest but not Hermione's. After all, it take stwo to tango.

CD, I think that Harry having to sacrifice himself, would be a horrible ending. After all, look at all he has gone through, only to die at the end? Not the most positive of messages.
Death is not the end, just another beginning ;)
and I thought Jo was writing this for herself and not for any message, but since when is sacrificing yourself for others a "non-positive message", since when is loving someone else more than yourself a bad message? This has me confused because I thought that was a certain somebody did for many of us 2000+ years ago, according to their Faith, how's this a negative message...
CD

Fury

December 2nd, 2004, 2:48 pm

woohoo... Love Thread 40!

I am still with Heron and Chocolate... :D Cause I know they will happen. Well, I know Heron will sail.

JBaker

December 2nd, 2004, 2:56 pm

Well...JKR has said she's not trying to write a "message" book but the best story she can.

I think it would do us all good not to prejudge and say "if" _____________ thing I don't want to happen (be it a ship or a particular dealth) happens, then I won't read/like it/etc".

Let's give the lady some credit. Whatever she does will be to serve what she wants to accomplish with the story. The more we have those preconceived notions, the less likely we will be to experience it in an open way (self-fulfilling prophecy, if you will :D )

P.S. I also think there is much to point to Harry showing "mercy" to Voldemort and that being unbearable for him. But, again, this isn't that thread...

P.P.S. As to how R/Hr could serve the plot? Well, if it's supposed to ... who knows? The lady continually suprises me.

Well I would still read it, but I won't necessarily like it (it took me a week to get over earth's demise in the Foundation Series, since I have a particular attachment to this lovely world).

Well whatever we have to say won't matter because she already has a plan.

Showing mercy to Voldemort. Would that be wise though?

Death is not the end, just another beginning ;)
and I thought Jo was writing this for herself and not for any message, but since when is sacrificing yourself for others a "non-positive message", since when is loving someone else more than yourself a bad message? This has me confused because I thought that was a certain somebody did for many of us 2000+ years ago, according to their Faith, how's this a negative message...
CD

No it's a great message to love someone more then yourself, that's love for you. Sacrificing yourself for your loved ones is also a good thing, only as a last resort though. No, I doubt she'd go this route (she might, but I doubt it). It's a bad message because he shouldn't have had to die.

Darynthe

December 2nd, 2004, 2:58 pm

Hello all, does anybody by any chance has the link to Angua's essay. I've often heard it mentioned and I'd love to have a look by myself. :)

delemtri

December 2nd, 2004, 3:00 pm

No it's a great message to love someone more then yourself, that's love for you. Sacrificing yourself for your loved ones is also a good thing, only as a last resort though. No, I doubt she'd go this route (she might, but I doubt it). It's a bad message because he shouldn't have had to die.

Well which one is it?! A great message or a bad message?

mrs_bombadil

December 2nd, 2004, 3:00 pm

Hello all, does anybody by any chance has the link to Angua's essay. I've often heard it mentioned and I'd love to have a look by myself. :)

I know it's at the lexicon...

xray

December 2nd, 2004, 3:00 pm

I guess I never offically added myself to my ships.

Add me to Heron, Chocolate, and Moonlight. I can't believe there isn't a N/H ship! :sad:I'll add you to Heron and Chocolate but not both Heron and Moonlight; they contradict each other. And by N/H I hope you mean N/Hr :)

xray

delemtri

December 2nd, 2004, 3:01 pm

I'll add you to Heron and Chocolate but not both Heron and Moonlight; they contradict each other. And by N/H I hope you mean N/Hr :)

xray

Back in the day an H was an H and that was that. You can tell which is which because the guy is on the left, girl is on the right.

Add me to H/G and R/H.

FlyingPhoenix

December 2nd, 2004, 3:02 pm

Hey, FP.
Ive always thought that Harry hooking up with Ginny at the end of the series was something of a ‘near” sure thing due to his strong connection with the Weasleys, and Harry not having any family of his own. I’m not just saying this that he should hook up with her because he had lost his parents, but rather that he should start his own family and that’s with Ginny.

Hi, Gryf (can I even say that?) :p
Nice to see you back and nicely answered. However (me being open minded now :huh: ) this did for me only work as lets say post-Hogwarts it didn't have any impact on the Plot now, it were merely an epiloge.

Because this kind of romance seems to speak more of the type you see on television: Friends, Dawsons Creek, etc, it wouldn’t be hard to see it blossoming exactly like books from HDM.

You know I actually read HDM because of a friend of mine reced to me however he got that idea from one of JKR's famous interviews. She seems to have a thing for stories where the romance is rather subtle forshadowed. To me it was in HDM very clear though I must admint in HP I see H/Hr bit more obvious than W/L in HDM. It was an usual twist in that story, I must add you find in stories which went over 3 books or more very often such kind of a radical twist though Pullman did it till now IMO the best.

That is a possible way for the R/Hr ship to affect the plot, and if, as I suspect, Ron and Hermione start dating in book7 then you have your one bbok criteria, but in the end it's only an idea based on a question you proposed. Ron and Hermione dating could be just one of those things or as Jo puts it, that's life.
And yes, I think Harry has to sacrifice himself to defeat and/or Vanquish Voldemort, that is the greatest Power that Harry possess,
"no greater love can a man have than to lay down his life for his brother."
and if a sacrifice is what will be needed to defeat Voldemort, it will be done by Harry, for after all this is Harry's story.

I respect your view and I can imagine me this however I won't agree. You see my problem is probably that a plot in book6 didn't really exist. Let me explain it better IMO this books aren't as much focused at Voldemort as many believe. The reason for this is that JKR turned this story into a 7 book long one the only reason for that is to show Harry and his relationship to his two friends and his realiseing of this world he is liveing.
You see the first time he saw the Wizarding World he was in awe and he truly loved it but the point is now to turn the tables. Its already starting due Sirius dead, the prophecy and Dumbledores action. Harry learned in Book5 that everything he was used to did turn. The world who was in awe of him, hated and thought of him as liar. Hogwarts thought of home turned into a prison. Dumbledore known as wise man turned in an old man who makes failures. Cho a girl Harry though was that of his dreams turned in a nightmare.
His parents thought as lovely and perfect turned into people Harry couldn't understand anymore.
This all happened already however this isn't yet the top of all. What if friends he thought they were open minded and not for blood-status begin to have an imense dislike for Muggle-Borns?
I suspect Cho is a pureblood or at least halfblood. Luna is a pureblood. Ginny is a pureblood. But Hermione is not. She is the only girl we as reader know who is a muggleborn. Why is that so? The author does it on prupose its all about racism in the end. One wonders why we don't know as much as we like about Lily's life, why is on that picture of their wedding only Sirius mentioned. Why do only people speak about her who are most likely open minded?
There is a reason why we find more about her in book6 because already in book5 as Malfoy insults her (does in fact bring Lily, Weasleys and Muggles on one stage) is it forshadowered what theme we will have. Even book6 name tells us, it will be about racism.

Haveing Ron dateing Hermione won't affect us that much, I'm affraid because Ron is as Weasley anyway seen as bloodtraitor. But haveing popular Harry going out with a muggleborn or just the rumor of it you'll be suprised how many problems and how much plot we did get. Esp. if Cho who seemed to have a serious problem with Hermione in OotP think she still has a chance.

At the end of the day this story will turn into a racism question. Already in OotP it was all about that, Voldemorts motive are focused at it. This means Hermione who is the only muggleborn that close to Harry will even increase in this plot and how could she do that? She must become his LI.

JBaker

December 2nd, 2004, 3:02 pm

Well which one is it?! A great message or a bad message?

IMO, while it can be a great message, in the context of Harry Potter, it's not, especially since his less then happy childhood.

mrs_bombadil

December 2nd, 2004, 3:02 pm

Showing mercy to Voldemort. Would that be wise though?

Mercy isn't something you do because it's wise...I can't help but think of what Hagrid said "not enough human left in him to die" (I wonder if Harry's blood was all that was needed there???)...also think of Javert.

Laufa

December 2nd, 2004, 3:07 pm

I kind of like the ring of HMS I'm too sexy for my toad for a Neville ship

:D

:rotfl: :rotfl: That sounds great for fanfic!Draco and Neville...

But let's not go there ;)

Love,
Eyrún

Corbin Dallas

December 2nd, 2004, 3:11 pm

JBaker

December 2nd, 2004, 3:17 pm

Mercy isn't something you do because it's wise...I can't help but think of what Hagrid said "not enough human left in him to die" (I wonder if Harry's blood was all that was needed there???)...also think of Javert.

Morally yes I agree that mercy isn't done because it's wise. But sometimes granting mercy, while the more humane, could also be for the worst. I am intrigued how JKR is going to conclude this, because on the one hand, granting mercy to Voldemort would seem to be very Harry Potter, but on the otherhand, if she is going for realism, then Voldemort would always be a threat ot Harry and the wizarding world at large, if he was allowed to be kept alive.

Sometimes the right choice is the hard one (putting down a pet that is dying and in a lot of pain for example). For Harry, the right choice might just be the ahrd one (to do what must be done for the greater good and kill Voldemort outright).

mrs_bombadil

December 2nd, 2004, 3:20 pm

Morally yes I agree that mercy isn't done because it's wise. But sometimes granting mercy, while the more humane, could also be for the worst. I am intrigued how JKR is going to conclude this, because on the one hand, granting mercy to Voldemort would seem to be very Harry Potter, but on the otherhand, if she is going for realism, then Voldemort would always be a threat ot Harry and the wizarding world at large, if he was allowed to be kept alive.

Sometimes the right choice is the hard one (putting down a pet that is dying and in a lot of pain for example). For Harry, the right choice might just be the ahrd one (to do what must be done for the greater good and kill Voldemort outright).

I understand...but I see the mercy somehow causing his downfall, or even death. (Hence the Javert reference)

Corbin Dallas

December 2nd, 2004, 3:20 pm

Morally yes I agree that mercy isn't done because it's wise. But sometimes granting mercy, while the more humane, could also be for the worst. I am intrigued how JKR is going to conclude this, because on the one hand, granting mercy to Voldemort would seem to be very Harry Potter, but on the otherhand, if she is going for realism, then Voldemort would always be a threat ot Harry and the wizarding world at large, if he was allowed to be kept alive.

Sometimes the right choice is the hard one (putting down a pet that is dying and in a lot of pain for example). For Harry, the right choice might just be the ahrd one (to do what must be done for the greater good and kill Voldemort outright).
If it were that simple JBaker, why didn't Dumbledore kill Riddle, prophecy or not surely he had the power to? There is something more to it and Jo even told us as much in the Edingburgh Festival this year....
CD

mrs_bombadil

December 2nd, 2004, 3:20 pm

Hello all, does anybody by any chance has the link to Angua's essay. I've often heard it mentioned and I'd love to have a look by myself. :)

Found it:

http://www.hp-lexicon.org/essays/essay-hh-suited.html

FlyingPhoenix

December 2nd, 2004, 3:24 pm

Errr Flying Phoenix, Harry's a half-Blood which is as bad as a mugglebrorn according to the DE's and notice Bella's surprise at Harry revealing his true lineagae.

You think I don't know that? But its a problem for Death Eaters not for the usuall Wizard. Let me give you an example of RL a Nazi would have a problem even if the other person is only faintly through a far relative related to a non-white guy but an old lady for example did look at you strangely if you come up with a black girlfriend. You see what I mean? That to the normal wizard community Hermione as Harry Potters Girlfriend will be a great deal of a problem.

esicardi

December 2nd, 2004, 3:24 pm

Corbin Dallas

December 2nd, 2004, 3:38 pm

Why not half blood Dean with pureblood Ginny?
It goes against racism prejudices, both in muggle/wizard and in african/caucasic.
Dunno ask Jo, i won't even go there because I don't think that's the point, I was under the impression that in today's wizarding World, that true Pureblood couples were the exception and not the rule, doesn't Ron say their dying out in Chamber or something like that.
Still this is Jo's story so it'll go where she wants it too, my point is that I think Jo is writing towards tolerance as opposed to racism...
CD

Fury

December 2nd, 2004, 3:43 pm

I believe the only reason Ginny is with Dean to get back at Michael Corner. I dunno it just seems fit.

Or to make Ron mad... I dunno. He just seems over protective of Ginny... and she knows it.

Corbin Dallas

December 2nd, 2004, 3:57 pm

I believe the only reason Ginny is with Dean to get back at Michael Corner. I dunno it just seems fit.

Or to make Ron mad... I dunno. He just seems over protective of Ginny... and she knows it.
I'll be honest with you Fury, I don't think Ginny is dating Dean, atleast not at the end of HP and the Order...
CD

Fury

December 2nd, 2004, 4:02 pm

I'll be honest with you Fury, I don't think Ginny is dating Dean, atleast not at the end of HP and the Order...
CD

I agree... I don't think she is with Dean. I didn't see anything about Ginny liking Dean or anything.

mrs_bombadil

December 2nd, 2004, 4:04 pm

I agree... I don't think she is with Dean. I didn't see anything about Ginny liking Dean or anything.

She may like him well enough, and is confident enough in her romantic endeavors, to have targeted him ("I CHOOSE Dean") to go "after". Doesn't mean they are actually dating yet... :evil:

LunaB13

December 2nd, 2004, 4:16 pm

Luna is a pureblood.

Um, we don't know that Luna is a pureblood. We know her father comes form a pureblood family, but we don't know about her mother. All we know was that she was an extraordinary witch who died when Luna was nine. She could have been a muggleborn for all we know and in the wizarding world, Lun could be termed a halfblood.

I agree... I don't think she is with Dean. I didn't see anything about Ginny liking Dean or anything.

I have this feeling that Ginny only mentioned Dean simply to get Ron off her back. I doubt she really is interested in him.

Fury

December 2nd, 2004, 4:20 pm

I have this feeling that Ginny only mentioned Dean simply to get Ron off her back. I doubt she really is interested in him.

I agree. Ginny hates that Ron is always wanting to know what she is up to. She knows he didn't like Michael Corner. She is a smart girl.

EricaM

December 2nd, 2004, 4:24 pm

Errr Flying Phoenix, Harry's a half-Blood which is as bad as a mugglebrorn according to the DE's and notice Bella's surprise at Harry revealing his true lineagae. Still I thought the idea was of Tolerance against racism, so Pureblood Ginny with HalfBlood Harry works even better and Pureblood Ron with Muggleborn Hermione is even better. Oh and are we sure about Luna, couldn't she be half-blood on her mother's side, I know Luna's mom was a witch but Jo said it matters on the Grandparents as to wether you were pureblood or not....
CD

I don't think that pure blood/half blood/muggleborn comes into play with respect to pairings. That is to say, it's all been done before. We know that Harry and his peers are products of various combinations of 'pedigree', so I don't see JKR grouping two people together to make a statement - it wouldn't have a lot of strenght since it isn't 'new'. Having said that though, I do wonder of family lineage has some significance. Why was it necessary for JKR to give us Sirius' family tree? Is it significant to know that Sirius is distantly related to both Arthur and Molly? Or is JKR just giving us the heads up about a (surprising?) familial connection in future canon.

Jordan

December 2nd, 2004, 4:29 pm

II am a very proud shipper of these ships:
HMS Moonlight- Luna Harry
HMS Heron- Hermione Ron
HMS Signs- Ginny Neville

Don't you think there is still a chance for Harry and Ginny?
It would make Ginny happy, and she could measure up to Harry, (which is very healthy for anyone who would date Harry).

LunaB13

December 2nd, 2004, 4:31 pm

If all the pureblood families are related, then Ron and Harry would have to be distant cousins, assuming that the Potters were purebloods. If it's distant cousins, it would be okay for Harry to date Ginny, though it's not my first choice. And Harry, Ron, and Hermione represent three differnt kinds of wizards, halfblood, pureblood, and Muggleborn. All this is really nonsense, in my opinion, and I really doubt Rowling is going to make blood be any prt of any relationships.

Laufa

December 2nd, 2004, 4:31 pm

I don't think that pure blood/half blood/muggleborn comes into play with respect to pairings. That is to say, it's all been done before. We know that Harry and his peers are products of various combinations of 'pedigree', so I don't see JKR grouping two people together to make a statement - it wouldn't have a lot of strenght since it isn't 'new'. Having said that though, I do wonder of family lineage has some significance. Why was it necessary for JKR to give us Sirius' family tree? Is it significant to know that Sirius is distantly related to both Arthur and Molly? Or is JKR just giving us the heads up about a (surprising?) familial connection in future canon.

I think it was to show the relations between pure-bloods. IMO, it was proof that your heritage doesn't matter when it comes to who you are - I mean, Bellatrix and Sirius were closely related; and just look at Tonks..(if she isn't traitor!)

But I agree, almost every pairing off would have an important message, and the message has already be given.

Love,
Eyrún

GryffindorGr

December 2nd, 2004, 4:33 pm

Hi, Gryf (can I even say that?) :p
Nice to see you back and nicely answered. However (me being open minded now :huh: ) this did for me only work as lets say post-Hogwarts it didn't have any impact on the Plot now, it were merely an epiloge.

Well that's a new one. Sure. :D

Post hogwarts yes, I agree and I can see that too only because of the way the series feel, that romance (as has been said multitude of times here) is a background filler. Yet with all the things happening in Harry's world, romance is undeniably a strong plot towards the end. (Of course, i've been a strong advocator for HP shipping for awhile now and being emotionally involved for half a year just leaves me wondering for the outcome)

What will be amazingly exciting are the final pairings and one ship or two will be left in the dust. Although suspiciously, I'm still bordering on the notion that Harry and Ron don't get "Hermione the prize" at the end. Total speculation of course. And which is probably one of the biggest reasons why JKR won't divulge the right pairing. (another speculation insertion) Sure she's given hints, but what kind of hints are those? Those that say, yes, R/hr has tension but really, look further and you'll see there's not much on that tension. Or H/hr is really what I'm after so if I tell you all it's R/hr then you all know it's H/hr or Hermione is scheduled to go forth with her S.P.E.W. alone. Another suspicion of mine is that she abandons this project because like things in life, our ideals just don't work out unless there are other means to compromise on the project with realistic approaches.

Another thing is that since most people would assume that H/g or H/LL would conclude only as a post hogwarts plotline (which I'm sure fanficcers will certainly be able to enjoy and write about) or the more interesting ones that have Luna just be a romance filler for book 6, then gone in book 7 only to make way for Ginny or Hermione, (because with assumption, if you look at the way it's written, Ginny is on the verge of a Dean shipping, and Harry is still coveting his pain over the loss of Sirius, and I'm sure the whole plotline of his death will go over in the first chapters of HBP.) is that with Hermione, it's simple, girl gets hero typical scenerio and will leave fans fairly satisfied. But will it really be the kind of bestseller that JKR is famous for? Or will she had some twists and turns that will surprise us all and make us why we didn't see it before? In some odd way, I'm wishing for a H/g because it will be a twist that I'm dying for. Not just a post hogwarts thing or that finally, Harry gets Ginny and vice versa because he is after all part of the family.

Something that ties in to Tom Riddle, the Chambers, and the powerful little girl in the Weasley family i find overall charming and seductive vs. Hermione, the muggle born witch that is a fairly strong activist for the liberation of elves and the protection of her best friends. It is the resisting force of Ron Weasley that I find to my lack of interest that is actually a far more challenging approach due to his strong vigor to resist everything she says and does (except for when she helps with his homework)

You know I actually read HDM because of a friend of mine reced to me however he got that idea from one of JKR's famous interviews. She seems to have a thing for stories where the romance is rather subtle forshadowed. To me it was in HDM very clear though I must admint in HP I see H/Hr bit more obvious than W/L in HDM. It was an usual twist in that story, I must add you find in stories which went over 3 books or more very often such kind of a radical twist though Pullman did it till now IMO the best.

That's interesting that you find the romance more subtle than HP (h/hr), for although it can be interpretated that h/hr is a more powerful appearance it's the way that is presented to the general audience that we get mixed feelings of the true romance combined with the friendship. Can friendship be interpretated as romance and does it usually happen in real life? Of course.
And I like twists. :)
by CD
I'll be honest with you Fury, I don't think Ginny is dating Dean, atleast not at the end of HP and the Order...
CD
If she isn't now she might be in HBP, and since she "chose" Dean, I dont see Dean refusing her either. It's the reaction of Harry in HBP when he finally sees those two together that will make a difference.
he never saw the interaction of Ginny/Michael beforehand did he?

LunaB13

December 2nd, 2004, 4:33 pm

Don't you think there is still a chance for Harry and Ginny?
It would make Ginny happy, and she could measure up to Harry, (which is very healthy for anyone who would date Harry).

I do think that there is a chance for Harry and Ginny together. I do understand about the Chocolate scene and think that Harry and Ginny would make a good couple. It's my second choice, however. Luna is my first choice simply because she helped Harry feel better about Sirus's death. (And five percent because she's my favorite character.) But if in Half-Blood Prince Harry ends up with Ginny, I wouldn't be disappointed at all. But of that happened, Luna would hve to end up with either Ron or Neville and I don't think they're good, even if there's hints that Luna has a crush on Ron.

Fury

December 2nd, 2004, 4:35 pm

LunaB13

December 2nd, 2004, 4:37 pm

Lily was Muggleborn. Harry is half-blood.

Isn't that what I wrote? When I said the Potters were pureblood, I meant James and his family.

Nathaniel

December 2nd, 2004, 4:41 pm

Death is not the end, just another beginning ;)
and I thought Jo was writing this for herself and not for any message, but since when is sacrificing yourself for others a "non-positive message", since when is loving someone else more than yourself a bad message? This has me confused because I thought that was a certain somebody did for many of us 2000+ years ago, according to their Faith, how's this a negative message...
CD

And is Harry supposed to be that certain somebody? Are we going to have allusions now to the 'lowercase t', so to speak? Is he going to be dying for peoples dirty sins now, too? Does he preach about loving G-d and following the commandments? No. hence, Harry is not that "certain someone", and it's almost sad to compare the two. the only thing they have in common is the 'savior' thingy. Other than that... no. And also... that 'certain someone' lived to 23 (or was it 24?). People did not live anywhere nears as long as we do today. So in a way, that 'certain someone' was probably in the... oh... late-middle of his prime. Harry will be to young to die.

Harry can love others more than himself in other ways besides sacrificing himself. He can save them from dying, for instance... you know, save their lives, and live himself to tell the tale.

It's true, part of the reason I want Harry to live is because I want Harry and Hermione to end up together (which is impossible if Harry dies), but I don't want Ron or Hermione to die, either. It would ruin the books for me. I know J.K.R. is writing her own story, and not what the fans want. But if she turns out to be another "great tragedian", then Harry Potter will not end up in my collection of books. I hate to be so 'terrible', but it's true. I'm strict in what I like (and picky), and tragedies generally do not fall into my "like" category (except for a few Shakespeare tragedies).

I am personally not fond of tragedies. Some of Shakespeare's tragedies I like, but mostly, tragedies are way to depressing. And honestly, Harry dying in any way would be a bit too depressing. And seriously...

Harry will be 16 (or 17) years old in the 7th book. He has a whole life a head of him. Why end it now? In the last episode of the first season of "Buffy", Buffy said something very moving to Giles:

"I'm 16, Giles. I don't want to die." (well... it's a paraphrase, anyways... :D)

I can just hear Harry saying similiar to Dumbledore.

He'll be 16 (or 17). Regardless of love, care, etc... why would he want to die?

And remember the prophecy. "One cannot survive while the other one lives" (or something like that). We can take that literally, and kind of turn it around to also say that one has to live if the other one is to die. So maybe Harry has to live in order for Voldemort to die.

But I'm way off topic here. To tie it into the love thread, it'd be devastating to the HMS Harmony if Harry were to die (actually... now it makes sense why so many Herons want Harry to die... talk about removing the competition :evil: ).

My vision of Harry's future:
Sitting around a fire, as a grandpa, with his loving wife Hermione by side, telling their grandchildren the story of how Harry saved the wizarding world from Voldemort.

CD, if you wanna continue this, let's meet in the "Who Will Die" thread.

Fury

December 2nd, 2004, 4:42 pm

Isn't that what I wrote? When I said the Potters were pureblood, I meant James and his family.

Sorry.. I guess I read it wrong.

LunaB13

December 2nd, 2004, 4:53 pm

Actually, that certain somebody, Jesus, died at age 32 or thereabouts.

To tie it into the love thread, it'd be devastating to the HMS Harmony if Harry were to die (actually... now it makes sense why so many Herons want Harry to die... talk about removing the competition :evil: ).

Really? Many Herons want Harry to die? Well, I'm a Heron shipper and I don't want harry to die. I want him to defeat Voldemort, then like Trewlanely said, live to a ripe old age, become Minister of Magic, and have twelve children. Well, I don't want him to have 12 kids, two or three will be enough, and he doesn't have to be minister of magic. The point is, I want Ron and Hermione together and have Harrry defeat Voldemort and grow old with Luna, or maybe Ginny.

delemtri

December 2nd, 2004, 5:12 pm

He'll be 16 (or 17). Regardless of love, care, etc... why would he want to die?

Remember OOTP? His strength came from wanting to die and be with Sirius. One of the strongest morals of the story is that there are some things which are worse than death.

FirefightingMuggle

December 2nd, 2004, 5:20 pm

I've never really looked much at this thread before...you guys have a lot of well thought out posts! All in all, this is pretty impressive.

I'm not quite sure who will end up with who, but I do think that there is quite a bit of tension between Ron and Hermione. Ron seems pretty jealous when Hermione is writing to Victor in OotP. In fact, Ron looked "disgruntled" (ootp US edition Page 461)And they are always bickering about something really. I think Ron likes Hermione, but I'm not sure about her feeling for him at this point.
Really, I think Hermione is more comfortable with the thought of a relationship, but then again, I think she understands emotions better then either of the boys, and that she is a little more mature when it comes to relationships in general. Look at the way that Hermione give Harry advice on how he should have handled the situation with Cho on the Valentine's Day Hogsmeade trip. Hermione knows what girls want to hear, of course, she is a girl. But, she has no trouble telling the boys all about it. She really seems to understand these things better then the boys do.
But at the same time, Hermione doesn't seem all that Happy for Harry when he tells them about his kiss with Cho after the DA meeting. Hermione had a "slight frown" (ootp pg 458 US edition). Hermione seems to have an intrest in what Happened, but it seems like the intrest was more than as just a friend asking a friend. Perhaps Hermione has a crush on Harry.

But I think by the end this will all sort it self out. I'm just not sure how really. Right now I'd say Ron likes Hermione, Hermione likes Harry, and Harry is quite occupied with thoughts of other things. But like I said, I think it will all work itself out in the end.

mrs_bombadil

December 2nd, 2004, 5:21 pm

Remember OOTP? His strength came from wanting to die and be with Sirius. One of the strongest morals of the story is that there are some things which are worse than death.

That's true...and in my pro-living sense (I vacillate often between being convinced Harry will die :td: and just knowing he won't :tu: ) I would say one of the things worse than death is a life where you do not live; in other words Voldemort is deathly afraid of "death" but he doesn't embrace living either. Harry is almost too willing to die...he has to not want to...yet...but not because of fear.

Oooh...now I'm remembering Strictly Ballroom “Vivir con miedo es como vivir a medias.” -- a life half lived and all that. :rotfl:

delemtri

December 2nd, 2004, 5:40 pm

That's true...and in my pro-living sense (I vacillate often between being convinced Harry will die :td: and just knowing he won't :tu: ) I would say one of the things worse than death is a life where you do not live; in other words Voldemort is deathly afraid of "death" but he doesn't embrace living either. Harry is almost too willing to die...he has to not want to...yet...but not because of fear.

Oooh...now I'm remembering Strictly Ballroom “Vivir con miedo es como vivir a medias.” -- a life half lived and all that. :rotfl:

I think that "not because of fear" is the biggest advantage Harry has over Voldemort - Harry's biggest fear is fear itself (COS) whereas Voldemort's whole life has revolved around his fear of death.

Have you read my owl yet? I'm nervous to see what you think. :blush:

Krumpet

December 2nd, 2004, 5:42 pm

Just before I give my 2€ to this (you know its in fact 2.60$) I like to ask: Plotwise, what does your ship to this plot? You know you want answer that :p
How I see the Heron affecting the story line…

One of the important things to keep in mind is that the HP books are not ONLY Harry’s story, though he is definitely the main character in it. The same way Emma is not only Emma’s story but also Harriet’s, Jane’s and Frank’s…; or Pride and Prejudice is not only Elizabeth’s story but also Jane’s, and the rest of her sisters..; the same way the same Lord of the Rings is not only Frodo’s story but also Sam’s, Strider’s, Gimili’s… And so on and so forth. :)

The Heron sailing would obviously affect Hermione and Ron’s storylines quite a lot. Being that they are the two most principal characters aside from Harry this would an important element in the books; it would help keep Rowling’s Potterverse more full and feel more layered and real. But I think what you want to know is how do I think the Heron will affect Harry’s story.

I think the affect will be kind of a counter affect. If Hermione started really dating Krum; and Ron really started dating Luna (though I think Luna will be a good friend of Harry’s in the up coming books as of yet she is not) then both H/R will be drawn away from Harry. They would develop very close ties that would severely limit the time that they could spend with Harry, and slowly they would start to fade from the books. If H/R happen as a couple they are still a team, one that is readily available to Harry; they are still “Ron and Hermione” to Harry. Granted that they may spend more time on their own as a couple then they would if they stayed “just friends”, but that is part of growing up. And they would still be there more then if they were dating other people. :)

Also I can see Ron and Hermione being a catalyst to Harry finding his own LI (which I will get to in a moment). So to sum up I see the Heron filling out Hermione and Ron’s own stories with in the series; keeping Ron and Hermione as team, which Harry needs badly; and I see the Heron working as a catalyst for Harry finding his own LI.

How the Chocolate could affect the series…

Harry’s romantic relationship is going to have more affect on the series then anyone else’s. (Except perhaps James and Lily’s). I think Harry getting a real love interest (not just a blip like Cho) is going to help calm him down, also I think it will help him to start to look forward at his life and what he can accomplish instead of back at what he’s lost (his family and any chance at a happy childhood). I think hope for the future is going to be very import for Harry in over coming Voldemort.

I think Ginny would fit the best in this capacity. She treats Harry like a normal person, not like he is the center of her world (she is over that stage of her life). That is important because Harry needs some normalcy in his life. He has many people available to him that put him on a pedestal (Ron, Hermione are of course the big two). What he needs, and I think he wants is to be normal, and human. Which is why I think he responded so well to Ginny in OotP; while he completely over looked her in the earlier books.

I think she is the perfect mix of caring and grounded for him. Not to mention the added bonus of Weaslely family, that she brings to the mix. Though to be honest I think Harry is already part of the Weaslely family even if he doesn’t realize it. Family is a lot more then blood relations. So Ginny’s family is not why I ship the Chocolate.

LilCubanita67

December 2nd, 2004, 5:45 pm

1. Neville and Ginny
2. Ron & Hermione

delemtri

December 2nd, 2004, 5:46 pm

1. Neville and Ginny
2. Ron & Hermione

How will Neville help Ginny grow?

yxs

December 2nd, 2004, 5:48 pm

*resists temptation to start screaming at the top of my lungs*
*succeeds (barely)*

Harry... is... not... going... to... die!

Get over it. The trio is going to live.

yeah, I agree with you... totally

Sometimes I let all these theories and thoughts that people have here get to me, but really... Rowling will not kill Harry. Or Ron... or Hermione

delemtri

December 2nd, 2004, 5:48 pm

yeah, I agree with you... totally

Sometimes I let all these theories and thoughts that people have here get to me, but really... Rowling will not kill Harry. Or Ron... or Hermione

Why not?

Krumpet

December 2nd, 2004, 5:57 pm

Why not?

Anything is possible. But If Harry dies then Voldemort wins. "Neither can live (They both can survive); while the other survives (One or the other has to kick it because they both can't live at the same time).

Also I don't see Rowling ending the books that way. If Harry dies, (because I can see Rowling trying to be up beat at the end of the series), in many ways that shows that the past (his whole family being dead and at least he is with them now) is stronger then the future (the life he might be able to live). It just seems wrong to me. :)

Polychrome

December 2nd, 2004, 5:59 pm

Toltec_7

December 2nd, 2004, 6:00 pm

One of the important things to keep in mind is that the HP books are not ONLY Harry’s story, though he is definitely the main character in it. The same way Emma is not only Emma’s story but also Harriet’s, Jane’s and Frank’s…; or Pride and Prejudice is not only Elizabeth’s story but also Jane’s, and the rest of her sisters..; the same way the same Lord of the Rings is not only Frodo’s story but also Sam’s, Strider’s, Gimili’s… And so on and so forth.
Sorry but i have to disagree with you here, Harry Potter is all about Harry; everything metioned in some way comes back to Harry. This is his story, his coming of age, and as has been mentioned many times on this thread we are not privy to anybody elses thoughts only Harrys', this is the curse of the writting style (third person limited) that J.K has chosen. I can't comment on the J.A books, because I haven't read them, however in LOTR we are in "eye of god" mode, the story changes, one moment we maybe with Frodo and Sam the next we may be with Strider and rest as they complete their part of the journey. Harry is not only "the main charactor" he is also the whole story (hense HP and the ....), everything in the end comes back to Harry.

yxs

December 2nd, 2004, 6:03 pm

Dumbledore is preparing Harry to fight and kill Voldemort, and survive the encounter.

Exactly

Harry IS a survivor... we've seen this through all the books.
And this is what the end is going to be like.
Sacrifices will be made (already is happening), people will die... but Harry will defeat the evil, he will be the one showing the wizardring world what it means to survive. What it means to stand up to Voldemort... and win. As so far no one was able to do it. He was the one marked.
He will do it.

I am 99% sure of that.

This story seems to be about a boy, who would make his parents proud if they would be alive and could see what he will accomplish... despite of everything that's happened to him.

And seriously... Rowling couldn't bear that herself... killing Harry (just remembering the Sirius thing)

Corbin Dallas

December 2nd, 2004, 6:04 pm

If she isn't now she might be in HBP, and since she "chose" Dean, I dont see Dean refusing her either. It's the reaction of Harry in HBP when he finally sees those two together that will make a difference.
he never saw the interaction of Ginny/Michael beforehand did he?

Oh I agree on that totally ;)

But I'm way off topic here. To tie it into the love thread, it'd be devastating to the HMS Harmony if Harry were to die (actually... now it makes sense why so many Herons want Harry to die... talk about removing the competition ).
To clarify, the ONE ship I want is Harry/Ginny, I ship Ron/Hermione because of what I have readin the 5 Harry Potter Books, not because of want, so :p cause it is deserved, you generealized ....
I'll put something up in the Who will die thread that'll really make you think how Jo might end the series, mind you, you pry won't like it...
CD
PS:
there could be a lot of ways to go with Love but Jo has gone out of her way to point out Choice and Sacrifice in her epic, doesn't take much to get an idea where she's going with it...

Polychrome

December 2nd, 2004, 6:05 pm

Also I don't see Rowling ending the books that way. If Harry dies, because I can Rowling trying to be up beat at the end of the series, in many ways that shows that the past (his whole family being dead and at least he is with them now) is stronger then the future (the life he might be able to live). It just seems wrong to me. :)

That, to me, makes the most sense. There is this theme of putting the past behind you in this series, as well as children taking over where their parents left off. Death in this series is presented in two ways: A natural part of life, and at the same time, something that is evil if it happens at the wrong time. The mirror of Erised represents death as a temptation. And frankly, it's a temptation that I believe, thanks to Luna, that Harry is already beginning to overcome.

Actually, my current theory is that Harry may end up a lot like Moody in his later years. :scared:

delemtri

December 2nd, 2004, 6:07 pm

Anything is possible. But If Harry dies then Voldemort wins. "Neither can live (They both can survive); while the other survives (One or the other has to kick it because they both can't live at the same time).

Also I don't see Rowling ending the books that way. If Harry dies, (because I can see Rowling trying to be up beat at the end of the series), in many ways that shows that the past (his whole family being dead and at least he is with them now) is stronger then the future (the life he might be able to live). It just seems wrong to me. :)

Actually, taken literally "neither can live while the other survives" means that one of them should be dead *right now.* There's threads on interpreting the prophecy, but it certainly doesn't mean that one of them MUST live post-VII.

Fury

December 2nd, 2004, 6:08 pm

Originally Posted by Nathaniel
But I'm way off topic here. To tie it into the love thread, it'd be devastating to the HMS Harmony if Harry were to die (actually... now it makes sense why so many Herons want Harry to die... talk about removing the competition ).

I do not want Harry to die. I want him with Ginny. That is one reason I support Heron.

yxs

December 2nd, 2004, 6:10 pm

CD, I think that Harry having to sacrifice himself, would be a horrible ending. After all, look at all he has gone through, only to die at the end? Not the most positive of messages.

Hm... this definitely isn't the message Rowling is gonna send

Usually it comes in the end when the level of... let's say... drama and tragedy is not that high in the story yet... it's for the final tragic punch...
In Harry Potter, the story itself already is a tragic punch... the ending going the same way is not so likely. Through all the books, we are only waiting for the positive relief... this is something that should come in the end.

Anyway... still don't know who to ship Harry with, lol, but... finally it's just best to wait and see

drdementor

December 2nd, 2004, 6:11 pm

BUT resurrection of the dead is impossible through magic in Rowling's world. That's rule number one. So if Harry Potter were to come back to life, it would be because he wasn't really dead or through divine intervention. And while there is lots of Christian symbolism in the series, God is not a character in them. Harry doesn't stop and pray to God, Dumbledore doesn't quote the Bible to inspire Harry, etc. So I doubt that the end of the series will exactly parallel Jesus' story.

The willingness to sacrifice one's life though, is already established in the Harry Potter series...with Lily. Lily's sacrifice for her son set Voldemort back 13 years. I don't know how Harry can do the same thing, and I don't see that it's necessary according to the prophecy (another topic altogether), but I do recognise that the possibility has precedent in Jo's universe. I don't want it to happen, though.

I think that the Trio will survive, just because Jo doesn't like killing people she doesn't have to...and I don't see how she'd HAVE to kill Hermione or Ron. We haven't learned why she had to kill Sirius yet, but I'm guessing it's because there was no other way she could get the plots of the next two books to work if he was still around. So Hermione's romance is safe, at least. Note: she might have to put Hermione out of action for a little while, as she did in CoS. What did having Hermione frozen do? It made the two boys have to research, figure things out, and go down some incorrect paths. If Hermione had been around, the story would have gone a lot faster and ended before Ginny was taken. Hermione has gotten faster and faster at figuring out tricky puzzles, and if Jo needs to slow things down, she may have to do something to Hermione so Harry and the others have to work things out themselves. Why do people think Dumbledore will die? Because Harry depends on him, but must face the Dark Lord without that help eventually. Perhaps Harry must also do without Hermione's brains for a while. I hope that he won't have to do without Hermione permanently, though.

Krumpet

December 2nd, 2004, 6:13 pm

Sorry but i have to disagree with you here, Harry Potter is all about Harry; everything metioned in some way comes back to Harry. This is his story, his coming of age, and as has been mentioned many times on this thread we are not privy to anybody elses thoughts only Harrys', this is the curse of the writting style (third person limited) that J.K has chosen. I can't comment on the J.A books, because I haven't read them, however in LOTR we are in "eye of god" mode, the story changes, one moment we maybe with Frodo and Sam the next we may be with Strider and rest as they complete their part of the journey. Harry is not only "the main charactor" he is also the whole story (hense HP and the ....), everything in the end comes back to Harry.

In Emma (also named after the main character) you never see anyone else's perspective other then Emma's, same with Pride and Prejudice the only perspective you see is Elizabeth's. And yet they both have storyline's that just barely affect the main character and yet are important to the story as a whole because they help develop characters and fill out the world created. That is one of reasons I love J.A. she doesn't just build an awesome character, but a world that feels very real. I get the same vibe from JKR. I mean how important have the Twin's joke shop really been to fight with Moldy Voldy? How about SPEW? Or Hermione and Ron being prefects, or Ron's triumph at House Cup? You see my point? There are a lot of thing that aren't really that important to the out come of the books, or even Harry (SPEW, Trevor) but are important IN the books because the fill out world of Hogwarts.:)

Egla

December 2nd, 2004, 6:16 pm

Remember OOTP? His strength came from wanting to die and be with Sirius. One of the strongest morals of the story is that there are some things which are worse than death.
Wrong his strength came from the love he felt for Sirius, his willing to die came from the fact that he was in terrible pain and wanted to die to be at peace and with a positive side effect rejoin his relatives. How could you get strength from the fact that you want to die. It was not the fact that he wanted to die that caused Voldemort to leave him it was the emotion and love he felt for Sirius!

ETA:
Killing of Harry is not nice, at least let him knock up some girl so the Potter family lives on. :p

delemtri

December 2nd, 2004, 6:17 pm

Wrong his strength came from the love he felt for Sirius, his willing to die came from the fact that he was in terrible pain and wanted to die to be at peace and with a positive side effect rejoin his relatives. How could you get strength from the fact that you want to die. It was not the fact that he wanted to die that caused Voldemort to leave him it was the emotion and love he felt for Sirius!

His strength came from the fact that his love for Sirius was stronger than his aversion to death.

drdementor

December 2nd, 2004, 6:18 pm

The primary story makes an exciting read, the secondary stories are what have made the books bestsellers. Honestly, I've read fantasies for children and adults that have had more beautiful language, better developed characters, and the same level or better of plotting, but most of them really do just focus on the hero and his closest pals. It's the little extra things that make Jo's books the top of the charts, as they deserve to be.

Melcb98

December 2nd, 2004, 6:18 pm

Originally Posted by Nathaniel
To tie it into the love thread, it'd be devastating to the HMS Harmony if Harry were to die (actually... now it makes sense why so many Herons want Harry to die... talk about removing the competition ).

:rotfl: Sorry....just had to do that. What Herons want Harry to die? I don't think most of us want any of the trio to die! If Hermione dies, it puts a cramp in both ships. If Ron dies, thats the end of Heron.....so what???

Nathaniel

December 2nd, 2004, 6:18 pm

delemtri

December 2nd, 2004, 6:20 pm

drdementor

December 2nd, 2004, 6:22 pm

Okay, here's an actual love topic:

I am a Heron shipper. I have read all the excellent Harmony articles and essays that have been suggested to me, and I thought they made a lot of good points, but in the end, I decided that the Heron ship was the one I really saw more and better evidence for.

SO...

I can no longer decide who Harry will fall in love with. I used to be a Chocolate shipper for the sole reason that Ginny was around, she was a girl who wasn't silly, and she liked Harry. And Harry would like his inlaws. After OotP, I liked Ginny even more, and thought that she could bring a lot to the table, romance-wise.

But I do like the Luna ships as well. Luna has that out-there nerdiness that Harry pities, but in time he could come to respect her more than pity her. And she is certainly less high-strung than Harry's old girlfriend Cho (who I think has many fine points by the way...she's just not right for Harry, and he's not right for her).

Luna and Ginny are about equally developed as characters and would have very different relationships with Harry.

What do you think of these two ships? Which one is more likely to happen?

Toltec_7

December 2nd, 2004, 6:22 pm

In Emma (also named after the main character) you never see anyone else's perspective other then Emma's, same with Pride and Prejudice the only perspective you see is Elizabeth's. And yet they both have storyline's that just barely affect the main character and yet are important to the story as a whole because they help develop characters and fill out the world created. That is one of reasons I love J.A. she doesn't just build an awesome character, but a world that feels very real. I get the same vibe from JKR. I mean how important have the Twin's joke shop really been to fight with Moldy Voldy? How about SPEW? Or Hermione and Ron being prefects, or Ron's triumph at House Cup? You see my point? There are a lot of thing that aren't really that important to the out come of the books, or even Harry (SPEW, Trevor) but are important IN the books because the fill out world of Hogwarts
Like I said I can't comment on J.A books because I haven't read them. However everything you mention about HP can (and proberly will) in some way effect the story, we have not seen the last of S.P.E.W it will defentily have its part to play. F&G's joke shop was brought about because of Harry and I am also sure that it will have its future plot points, as to Trevor he may also have a part in the grand design (read the last chapter of PS to see what I mean) in fact this particlar topic has raised some very interesting discussion on the New Clues Board (G.W book), I will see if I can find it for you if your interested.

Egla

December 2nd, 2004, 6:23 pm

His strength came from the fact that his love for Sirius was stronger than his aversion to death.
That's a better way to put it. Although Harry would not have died from Voldemorts possesion alone, so he would not have died anyway. I don't really know how to explain it better.

yxs

December 2nd, 2004, 6:25 pm

Why not?

Well... maybe because... like someone said... if Harry dies, Voldemort wins??

And I truly can't see Rowling killing one of the trio.
I can't be sure of course... 100%, but... when it comes to Harry...

the prophecy already says Harry has to live (assuming all evil Voldemort is defeated).

Melcb98

December 2nd, 2004, 6:25 pm

Okay... okay....

Let me change my statement:

"But I'm way off topic here. To tie it into the love thread, it'd be devastating to the HMS Harmony if Harry were to die (actually... now it makes sense why some Herons want Harry to die... talk about removing the competition )."

Better?

Not really- because the whole topic is kind of weird. Because there are some Harmonians that want Ron to die- and thats a way to "kill off the competetion." And Harmonians don't want to be accused of that. And, I don't think people want Harry to die, as some want Ron to die, but it may happen. Voldemort and Harry may have to cancel each other out.

Corbin Dallas

December 2nd, 2004, 6:25 pm

Nathaniel and CD:

If we're going to get into Christian symbolism, please remember that:

1. Jesus was ressurected. That's half the story right there.
2. Harry is tied very strongly to a certain critter of Dumbledore's that represents ressurection to Christians.

That should be enough for the both of you. :P
final bit on this matter promise, decided to put this here instead of who dies thread because we here are talking about it, from
the Vancouver Sun, by Max Wyman Oct 26, 2000

Harry, of course, is able to battle supernatural evil with supernatural forces of his own, and Rowling is quite clear that she doesn't personally believe in that kind of magic -- "not at all." Is she a Christian?

"Yes, I am," she says. "Which seems to offend the religious right far worse than if I said I thought there was no God. Every time I've been asked if I believe in God, I've said yes, because I do, but no one ever really has gone any more deeply into it than that, and I have to say that does suit me, because if I talk too freely about that I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what's coming in the books."
credit goes to sweetprosperina at New Clues for digging this up...
now for a final bit of clarification, I think it's possible Harry doesn't survive the series, I don't want it to end that way but anything is possible and Jo has left clues that it may well end with both Voldemort and Harry dying. I want Harry to live to a ripe old age, become Minister of Magic and have 12 kids, and the last bit I want him to be with Ginny, those are my wants, what clues do I see, look at the bold # ;) ...
CD

Polychrome

December 2nd, 2004, 6:26 pm

there could be a lot of ways to go with Love but Jo has gone out of her way to point out Choice and Sacrifice in her epic, doesn't take much to get an idea where she's going with it...

And you think Lord of the Rings didn't point out these things? A good deal of characters survived in THAT. This is handled a bit different than Lord of the Rings though. I don't see Harry as a "Frodo" by any means. Frodo was more of a Moses character, that went from comfortable life to great mission. Lord of the Rings was more symbolic of World War 2, and Frodo was more of a war-torn soldier who just couldn't handle life. Sad thing is, in the end, he came off as a wimp to me. Sam was the real hero.

Harry's life started out horrible, but in many ways has been steadily improving despite all that's happening to him. This is NOT the sign of a tragic character. The "steady decay" we see in Frodo is not happening to Harry. While he also has a "great mission", he realizes he's always been on it. Some things are his choice, others are not. By the end of Order of the Phoenix, we're all treated to a big warm fuzzy.

We also need to consider life debts. Who owes who? Harry owes his parents. What was their final wish? It wasn't to save "the weapon". They wanted their kid to live. Make friends. Play baseball. Eat pizza. Get a girl and a career and a home and contribute to the gene pool like any other loving parent wishes for their children. No, I don't believe Harry's going to wimp out in the end like Frodo. We get hints of this in Prisoner of Azkaban and at the beginning and end of Order of the Phoenix.

Back to Christian Symbolism. You can't really tackle it unless you really know what you're doing. Like I said, what people, even Christians, often forget about this story is the ressurection. This has already been foreshadowed by Sorceror's Stone. Harry woke up 3 days after tackling Voldemort. No prizes for guessing what that's representing and hinting at. :rotfl:

So what would be the REAL happy ending for Harry? To do as his parents wanted. To live, get married, and live as good a life as possible. People say that a OBHWF ending is "too happy". Well, who says an ending can't be happy? I've actually been pondering something for quite a long time. It is VERY possible that JKR is planning a "Les Miserables" ending where the hero dies happy of old age surrounded by his children. This is the only kind of "death" ending that truely feels more complete than your average happy ending. There is a sense of fulfillment to such a thing that you can't find in any other kind of ending. If James and Lily's final wishes were for their kid to have a shot at life, then this IS the true "happily ever after".

Yet another reason to ship Harry with Ginny. :)

delemtri

December 2nd, 2004, 6:26 pm

Well... maybe because... like someone said... if Harry dies, Voldemort wins??

And I truly can't see Rowling killing one of the trio.
I can't be sure of course... 100%, but... when it comes to Harry...

the prophecy already says Harry has to live (assuming all evil Voldemort is defeated).

No, it doesn't say Harry has to live.

That's a better way to put it. Although Harry would not have died from Voldemorts possesion alone, so he would not have died anyway. I don't really know how to explain it better.

I'm not sure what would have happened had he not thought of Sirius.

Corbin Dallas

December 2nd, 2004, 6:28 pm

Like I said I can't comment on J.A books because I haven't read them. However everything you mention about HP can (and proberly will) in some way effect the story, we have not seen the last of S.P.E.W it will defentily have its part to play. F&G's joke shop was brought about because of Harry and I am also sure that it will have its future plot points, as to Trevor he may also have a part in the grand design (read the last chapter of CoS to see what I mean) in fact this particlar topic has raised some very interesting discussion on the New Clues Board (G.W book), I will see if I can find it for you if your interested.
The Basilisk theory or second one i can get that Link, it's in the Two by Tous thread here...
http://newclues.mugglenet.com/viewtopic.php?p=20325#20325
the very last post has to do with Trevor ;)
CD
PS
Poly,
what happened to Frodo, Bilbo and Sam in the end and why...
CD
and I agree with this...
Yet another reason to ship Harry with Ginny.

yxs

December 2nd, 2004, 6:34 pm

Voldemort and Harry may have to cancel each other out.
It's not The Matrix, lol

Like Jo said... the prophecy was carefully worded

And now I'm starting to realize indeed, how many Herons actually expect Harry's death in here... wow! :wow:

What's with that?
And the whole tragic hero thing...

drdementor

December 2nd, 2004, 6:35 pm

No, it doesn't say Harry has to live.

I'm not sure what would have happened had he not thought of Sirius.

I think that Voldemort was trying to hurt Harry and tempt Dumbledore to finish Harry off in the hopes of killing Voldy at the same time. But when Harry felt the love for Sirius (which was stronger than his own survival instinct) then Voldemort fled. I think Voldemort fled from the love and not the death wish, because Harry wanted to die (from the pain) and THEN thought that at least he could see Sirius. So it was Willing to Die, Voldy's still there. Loving Sirius, Voldy runs off.

delemtri

December 2nd, 2004, 6:35 pm

Toltec_7

December 2nd, 2004, 6:36 pm

The Basilisk theory or second one i can get that Link, it's in the Two by Tous thread here...
http://newclues.mugglenet.com/viewt...p?p=20325#20325
the very last post has to do with Trevor
Cheers CD, you saved me the trouble of finding that. (I'll edit my previous post to say "the end of PS" instead of CoS ;) )

yxs

December 2nd, 2004, 6:36 pm

Harry's life started out horrible, but in many ways has been steadily improving despite all that's happening to him. This is NOT the sign of a tragic character. The "steady decay" we see in Frodo is not happening to Harry. While he also has a "great mission", he realizes he's always been on it. Some things are his choice, others are not. By the end of Order of the Phoenix, we're all treated to a big warm fuzzy.

We also need to consider life debts. Who owes who? Harry owes his parents. What was their final wish? It wasn't to save "the weapon". They wanted their kid to live. Make friends. Play baseball. Eat pizza. Get a girl and a career and a home and contribute to the gene pool like any other loving parent wishes for their children. No, I don't believe Harry's going to wimp out in the end like Frodo. We get hints of this in Prisoner of Azkaban and at the beginning and end of Order of the Phoenix.

Back to Christian Symbolism. You can't really tackle it unless you really know what you're doing. Like I said, what people, even Christians, often forget about this story is the ressurection. This has already been foreshadowed by Sorceror's Stone. Harry woke up 3 days after tackling Voldemort. No prizes for guessing what that's representing and hinting at. :rotfl:

So what would be the REAL happy ending for Harry? To do as his parents wanted. To live, get married, and live as good a life as possible. People say that a OBHWF ending is "too happy". Well, who says an ending can't be happy? I've actually been pondering something for quite a long time. It is VERY possible that JKR is planning a "Les Miserables" ending where the hero dies happy of old age surrounded by his children. This is the only kind of "death" ending that truely feels more complete than your average happy ending. There is a sense of fulfillment to such a thing that you can't find in any other kind of ending. If James and Lily's final wishes were for their kid to have a shot at life, then this IS the true "happily ever after".

Yet another reason to ship Harry with Ginny. :)

Oh, I totally agree :tu:

Corbin Dallas

December 2nd, 2004, 6:37 pm

I think that Voldemort was trying to hurt Harry and tempt Dumbledore to finish Harry off in the hopes of killing Voldy at the same time. But when Harry felt the love for Sirius (which was stronger than his own survival instinct) then Voldemort fled. I think Voldemort fled from the love and not the death wish, because Harry wanted to die (from the pain) and THEN thought that at least he could see Sirius. So it was Willing to Die, Voldy's still there. Loving Sirius, Voldy runs off.
Yeah it says that Harry's heart began to fill with emotion and the coils of the snake loosened, so I agree with you DrD, Dumbledore even tells us that Love is a power that Voldemort doessn't understand and knows not at all and underestimates...
CD
PS
not a prob Toltec_7 :tu:

yxs

December 2nd, 2004, 6:38 pm

No, it doesn't say Harry has to live.

Think a little further

delemtri

December 2nd, 2004, 6:38 pm

Think a little further

Excuse me? You'll have to show me where it says Harry has to live.

yxs

December 2nd, 2004, 6:39 pm

The prophecy was carefully worded, but it may not mean what you think. It's very unclear right now what it *does* mean - it seems to suggest that one of them should already be dead.
Voldemort isn't exactly alive as a human being right now

delemtri

December 2nd, 2004, 6:41 pm

Voldemort isn't exactly alive as a human being right now

I disagree. He has a body; I don't think he plans to change from his current form.

Corbin Dallas

December 2nd, 2004, 6:41 pm

Voldemort isn't exactly alive as a human being right now
Errr unfortunately the whole rebithing ceremony at the end of Goblet seems to indicate otherwise, physical body, sense of self, concious thought, all indicators of Life...
CD

Polychrome

December 2nd, 2004, 6:42 pm

:rotfl: Sorry....just had to do that. What Herons want Harry to die? I don't think most of us want any of the trio to die! If Hermione dies, it puts a cramp in both ships. If Ron dies, thats the end of Heron.....so what???

Yeah, no kidding. I know I for sure want Harry to live. He can't be with Ginny if he's dead. :P

And as Mel here says, it's often the Harmony side that treats Ron like some sort of "Red Shirt".

I'm all for the entire trio living.

Melcb98

December 2nd, 2004, 6:42 pm

It's not The Matrix, lol
I have no idea- never seen the 2nd or 3rd ones....never got into it.

Like Jo said... the prophecy was carefully worded
Yeah, but we still may not be getting it right.

And now I'm starting to realize indeed, how many Herons actually expect Harry's death in here... wow! :wow:
I don't expect Harry's death. I don't want Harry's death. I just think it could happen, because JKR is being very cryiptic about it.

What's with that?
And the whole tragic hero thing...

Nope, just what JKR says.

yxs

December 2nd, 2004, 6:42 pm

Excuse me? You'll have to show me where it says Harry has to live.
It doesn't say that.
You have to think a little further to come to that.

But it's all very off topic

drdementor

December 2nd, 2004, 6:42 pm

It's not The Matrix, lol

Like Jo said... the prophecy was carefully worded

And now I'm starting to realize indeed, how many Herons actually expect Harry's death in here... wow! :wow:

What's with that?
And the whole tragic hero thing...

Yeah, the prophecy is very carefully worded isn't it? And it all seemed so clear at first...

I think the real reason people suspect Harry will die is not the actual prophecy, but Dumbledore's very sensible interpretation of it. There's a literary tradition that people usually interpret prophecies incorrectly. So the simple explanation that one will have to kill the other must be wrong, right?

Jo has established this tradition as well; the children misinterpret "The Servant" referred to in the PoA prophecy to be Sirius Black...but they aren't that far off, are they? I mean, the Servant is the wrong person, but the rest of that prophecy happens as they thought it would. So I think there's a twist coming up with the Prophecy, but I think it won't be as big as a 'both of them die!' ending. I think it might be nice, like Harry accidentally kills Voldemort using his hands, or maybe he tosses something in the Dark Lord's evil potion, and the cauldron explodes and kills Voldy. Or to make it less gruesome, Voldy turns into a snake, and Harry kills him then, maybe with the Sword of Gryffindor, maybe not even knowing it's Voldy at the time. There're all kinds of ways the Prophecy could turn to Harry's BENEFIT. He could be so relieved at not feeling like a murderer, and it could be such a cool read.

If you want some Christian (and Jewish) symbolism in there, what about the snake striking at the man's heel that crushes him? That could be way cool as well, for Harry to just pick up snake-Voldy and smash him against a wall.

And then everyone can get married and live more or less happily ever after!

Polychrome

December 2nd, 2004, 6:44 pm

Errr unfortunately the whole rebithing ceremony at the end of Goblet seems to indicate otherwise, physical body, sense of self, concious thought, all indicators of Life...
CD

Kinda ugly though, isn't he?

Or to make it less gruesome, Voldy turns into a snake, and Harry kills him then, maybe with the Sword of Gryffindor, maybe not even knowing it's Voldy at the time.

And then he flies off and marries Jasmine....

Wait... Wrong story! And definitely wrong ship! :rotfl:

Corbin Dallas

December 2nd, 2004, 6:44 pm

Kinda ugly though, isn't he?
maybe not to Bella but she is a married woman :rotfl:
then again i wonder for how long? :evil:
CD

yxs

December 2nd, 2004, 6:45 pm

I'm all for the entire trio living.

Me too

Tragedy is hm... COOL... but not senseless tragedy

Polychrome

December 2nd, 2004, 6:46 pm

maybe not to Bella but she is a married woman :rotfl:
then again i wonder for how long? :evil:
CD

Yeah, I've been pondering that as well, and well, it IS the ship thread.

What's up with Voldemort and Bellatrix? Seems to be some kind of affair between them. I mean, since when does Voldemort use endearing nicknames?

Though, the more I think about it, the more I want to just stop, drop, and roll... laughing. :rotfl:

drdementor

December 2nd, 2004, 6:46 pm

Kinda ugly though, isn't he?

Well, that explains the lack of Voldy ships. Jo should be glad for that one, as she is already concerned about her fans liking Snape, Draco, and Lucius just a little too much. No one out there is saying 'That bald, snake-eyed man just ROCKS my WORLD! I could so change his murderous heart. He'd be eating out of my hand within the week!" Jo's reply 'NO, he'd be feeding your hand to Nagini.'

Polychrome

December 2nd, 2004, 6:47 pm

Well, that explains the lack of Voldy ships. Jo should be glad for that one, as she is already concerned about her fans liking Snape, Draco, and Lucius just a little too much. No one out there is saying 'That bald, snake-eyed man just ROCKS my WORLD! I could so change his murderous heart. He'd be eating out of my hand within the week!" Jo's reply 'NO, he'd be feeding your hand to Nagini.'

I think you spoke too soon. *points up*

drdementor

December 2nd, 2004, 6:50 pm

Yeah, I've been pondering that as well, and well, it IS the ship thread.

What's up with Voldemort and Bellatrix? Seems to be some kind of affair between them. I mean, since when does Voldemort use endearing nicknames?

Though, the more I think about it, the more I want to just stop, drop, and roll... laughing. :rotfl:

Oh, I think Voldy just puts up with her cause she's crazier than he is and is completely enamored of him. She's his most loyal Death Eater, but far from being his most useful, what with her sadistic obsessions that get in the way of the job at hand.

Though the nickname thing DID make me think... I'm sure Bellatrix would love to be on the Voldy ship, though she might consider herself unworthy to kiss such a wonderful, wonderful man.

Corbin Dallas

December 2nd, 2004, 6:51 pm

Oh, I think Voldy just puts up with her cause she's crazier than he is and is completely enamored of him. She's his most loyal Death Eater, but far from being his most useful, what with her sadistic obsessions that get in the way of the job at hand.

Though the nickname thing DID make me think... I'm sure Bellatrix would love to be on the Voldy ship, though she might consider herself unworthy to kiss such a wonderful, wonderful man.
Perhaps but Harry let it slip about the Half Blood thing, think this might put a damper on things?
CD

yxs

December 2nd, 2004, 6:51 pm

I don't expect Harry's death. I don't want Harry's death. I just think it could happen, because JKR is being very cryiptic about it.

Nope, just what JKR says.

Well, she's being cryptic about a lot of things.

She hasn't said anything... about Harry's death.
She's not answering that just as she's not answering other things.
Like if Ron will live or die... she once said "well, ASSUMING Ron lives to grow up..." to a question of what kind of job he will have in the future.
And many things in the books already seem to foreshadow Ron's death.
Still, I don't wish him dead and don't take them seriously.

Is as much death as possible (or hero's death) the only thing that can make books COOL or tragic enough?
Lol... I've never understood that

FirefightingMuggle

December 2nd, 2004, 6:53 pm

:rotfl: Bella and Voldie....but I thought Bella was married? I suppose there is a war on and she could be made a widow.
Would that ship be the HMS Twisted Darkness?

yxs

December 2nd, 2004, 6:55 pm

And then he flies off and marries Jasmine....

Wait... Wrong story! And definitely wrong ship! :rotfl:

Lol... that is indeed a wrong ship :lol:

Corbin Dallas

December 2nd, 2004, 6:55 pm

:rotfl: Bella and Voldie....but I thought Bella was married? I suppose there is a war on and she could be made a widow.
Would that ship be the HMS Twisted Darkness?
Oh wait more Christian Symbolism or maybe Hebrew on this one, Voldy sends Bella's husband to the "Front Lines" and he cops it, leaving Bella free to follow her dark heart's desire...
CD

Polychrome

December 2nd, 2004, 6:57 pm

:rotfl: Bella and Voldie....but I thought Bella was married? I suppose there is a war on and she could be made a widow.
Would that ship be the HMS Twisted Darkness?

Come on, do you really think Mr. Ultimate Evil Voldemort is gonna care whether or not a woman is married? He has no morals whatsoever. :rotfl:

mrs_bombadil

December 2nd, 2004, 7:00 pm

However everything you mention about HP can (and proberly will) in some way effect the story, we have not seen the last of S.P.E.W it will defentily have its part to play. F&G's joke shop was brought about because of Harry and I am also sure that it will have its future plot points, as to Trevor he may also have a part in the grand design (read the last chapter of PS to see what I mean) in fact this particlar topic has raised some very interesting discussion on the New Clues Board (G.W book)

The simple fact is that we don't know how everything exactly affects Harry yet...if all have to have such a close tie, same can be true of Ron and Hermione--that it just remains to be seen.

Although Krumpet did bring up a point showing how it could matter. Harry needs both of his friends. If it's true that JKR thinks Ron and Hermione could be a good team themselves (I realize some number on harmony do not think so, though) then that does help Harry if it's also applied to his battle with Voldemort.

LunaB13

December 2nd, 2004, 7:02 pm

:rotfl: Bella and Voldie....but I thought Bella was married? I suppose there is a war on and she could be made a widow.
Would that ship be the HMS Twisted Darkness?

Very funny. :lol: And the name is appropiate. Though I really doubt Voldemort would care if Bella is married or not. But still, I guess he could do what King David did, which was send Uriah to the front lines, then after he got killed, married his widow Bathsheba.

drdementor

December 2nd, 2004, 7:03 pm

I don't think Voldy is human enough to want romance. I think Bella may do a little thinking about that HalfBlood slip. The interesting thing is that Voldy has always known just what to say to people to get them on his side. Barty Crouch knew Voldy's dad was also 'disappointing' and may have known he was a muggle. Bella clearly did not. Malfoy may not be thrilled about the idea of serving a halfblood, but Voldemort's power is nothing to mess with. I think a lot of the Death Eaters might betray Voldemort, either through insane blundering, anger at having lost more than they gained, or irritation at being constant whipping boys. Malfoy was sort of Voldemort's captain, and now he's lost all political power and is in jail. He didn't need Voldemort, but Voldemort needs him to lead the Motley Crew of nutjobs he has working for him.

EricaM

December 2nd, 2004, 7:04 pm

Oh wait more Christian Symbolism or maybe Hebrew on this one, Voldy sends Bella's husband to the "Front Lines" and he cops it, leaving Bella free to follow her dark heart's desire...
CD

Does that mean that Hermione (that scarlet woman ;) ) could represent Mary Magdalen and Ron could represent .... Peter?

Corbin Dallas

December 2nd, 2004, 7:06 pm

Does that mean that Hermione (that scarlet woman ;) ) could represent Mary Magdalen and Ron could represent .... Peter?
ooohhhh that's just ripe :rotfl:
CD

drdementor

December 2nd, 2004, 7:09 pm

Er, if Ron were represented by someone in the New Testament, and if Harry Potter is supposed to be like Jesus, my guess would be John (the one Jesus loved...and yes HE does identify himself at the end of his gospel) or Peter (the hotheaded number one sidekick). Fred and George make a nice Sons of Thunder pairing. Erm, Hermione makes me think a bit more of a combination of Martha and Mary, sister of Lazarus, though her importance is certainly Magdalene-esque. I don't think Jo's really going for a 12 disciples of Harry Potter line up though.

Oh, yeah, and if we were going to pair the Marauders with the Disciples, with James as Jesus

Sirius would be Peter (hot headed numero uno who remains faithful at the end)
Remus could be John, as the more level headed emotionally aware one
and
Peter would be Judas

Given the information we know so far, that is.

I will not have Bible Peter maligned, even in a passing joke! He is my favorite Disciple to read about, darn you to pieces! Even though a rather nasty rat animagus has his name.

Corbin Dallas

December 2nd, 2004, 7:12 pm

Er, if Ron were represented by someone in the New Testament, and if Harry Potter is supposed to be like Jesus, my guess would be John (the one Jesus loved...and yes HE does identify himself at the end of his gospel) or Peter (the hotheaded number one sidekick). Fred and George make a nice Sons of Thunder pairing. Erm, Hermione makes me think a bit more of a combination of Martha and Mary, sister of Lazarus, though her importance is certainly Magdalene-esque. I don't think Jo's really going for a 12 disciples of Harry Potter line up though.
Funny thing is the #12 shows up alot in HP, many think it is a major clue...
but that's off topic except Trelawny did once Predict Harry would have 12 kids and I know a family where they are predisposed to having alot of kids, think Red-Heads ;)
CD

Claudia

December 2nd, 2004, 7:14 pm

Come on, do you really think Mr. Ultimate Evil Voldemort is gonna care whether or not a woman is married? He has no morals whatsoever. :rotfl:I picked up on the same weirdness between Bellatrix and Voldemort that the rest of you have, and the silly thing is that even though I know that Voldemort and Bellatrix are eeeeevil, I was still muttering, "But she's married, for crissakes!" Evidently I'm willing to look past mind-control, torture, murder, and genocide as possible dampers on relationships, but infidelity is another matter altogether. :huh:

*For those of you who won't recognize the irony in the last sentence, no, I am not ok with mind-control, torture, murder, and genocide.

drdementor

December 2nd, 2004, 7:18 pm

I picked up on the same weirdness between Bellatrix and Voldemort that the rest of you have, and the silly thing is that even though I know that Voldemort and Bellatrix are eeeeevil, I was still muttering, "But she's married, for crissakes!" Evidently I'm willing to look past mind-control, torture, murder, and genocide as possible dampers on relationships, but infidelity is another matter altogether. :huh:

*For those of you who won't recognize the irony in the last sentence, no, I am not ok with mind-control, torture, murder, and genocide.

Yeah, but mind-control, torture, murder, and genocide are what Bella and her Dear Old Master have in common. That's what they could talk about over candlelit dinners. Honestly, Bella has gone completely off the deep end; I don't know if she was always that nuts or if Voldemort just made her that way, but she probably is halfway in love or at least in lust with him. Though he isn't with her, obviously (no love, no way). He is probably not in lust with her either, because he only lusts after power and immortality.

I ship Voldemort/Immortality: HMS Doomed to Failure

Claudia

December 2nd, 2004, 7:19 pm

Funny thing is the #12 shows up alot in HP, many think it is a major clue...
but that's off topic except Trelawny did once Predict Harry would have 12 kids and I know a family where they are predisposed to having alot of kids, think Red-Heads ;)
CDYou mentioned that before and I never got a chance to reply...
Somehow I just can't see Harry having a family that large. He seems to really need his personal space sometimes. And how would a career as Auror work? "You're going off to Romania to fight the forces of darkness again?! Don't you dare leave me alone here when you know the triplets are teething!" ;)

GryffindorGr

December 2nd, 2004, 7:22 pm

:rotfl: Bella and Voldie....but I thought Bella was married? I suppose there is a war on and she could be made a widow.
Would that ship be the HMS Twisted Darkness?
by CD
Oh wait more Christian Symbolism or maybe Hebrew on this one, Voldy sends Bella's husband to the "Front Lines" and he cops it, leaving Bella free to follow her dark heart's desire...
CD

Oh that's a good one. :lol:
Considering Ralph Fiennes is playing Voldemort (check muggle studies)

Corbin Dallas

December 2nd, 2004, 7:22 pm

You mentioned that before and I never got a chance to reply...
Somehow I just can't see Harry having a family that large. He seems to really need his personal space sometimes. And how would a career as Auror work? "You're going off to Romania to fight the forces of darkness again?! Don't you dare leave me alone here when you know the triplets are teething!" ;)
Hey this is Trelawny saying this, I often thought no one should tell Ginny or she'd have him fixed ;) but you know that old crone isn't always right, except for Neville, and The october 16 thing, and Hermione leaving class, and the 13 at a table thing, oooh boy ...
CD
PS
do you really think Molly would Leave Ginny alone when she could play with her grandchildren?

delemtri

December 2nd, 2004, 7:34 pm

It doesn't say that.
You have to think a little further to come to that.

But it's all very off topic

Further or in the wrong direction.

Toltec_7

December 2nd, 2004, 7:41 pm

As the current topic of discussion seems to be predictions, the prophecy & death, I shall post the lyrics to an excellent song that I believe covers these themes (and who loves who ;)):

Threshold - Clear
as a child i recall i had once believed
i would die before i reached seventeen
seventeen i remember i faced the truth
when i understood your prophecy was confused
when all is done there is little that can guide everyone along
the faltered line you mumbled on the day you left us behind

nothing is clear though you promised me you'd be here
you promised me
nothing is clear though you promised me
you promised me that you'd be here
nothing is clear though you promised me you'd be here
you promised me
though nothing was clear

as a child hope is what keeps us young
like a fuel it will burn until you are strong
if you're weak you'll never see past the day
like a cynic you will probably feel betrayed
if one thing's clear there is certainly little of value here
and when we die inevitably we're leaving all this behind

nothing is clear though you promised me you'd be here
you promised me
nothing is clear though you promised me
you promised me that you'd be here
nothing is clear though you promised me you'd be here
you promised me
though nothing was clear

P.S I was just listening to this song as whole death discussion was taking place so I thought it was quite fitting (but way off-topic), I may just have to make a HP video for it and one for Ayreon's Forevermore, another song that fits very well to the HP world.

drdementor

December 2nd, 2004, 7:43 pm

Yeah, the love thread is so off topic right now, but that is fine by me. Thanks for the song, toltec. Do you live on the Cumbres-Toltec rail line, by any chance?

Toltec_7

December 2nd, 2004, 7:53 pm

Yeah, the love thread is so off topic right now, but that is fine by me. Thanks for the song, toltec. Do you live on the Cumbres-Toltec rail line, by any chance?
No, sorry I don't even know where that is (I presume France?), i'm from little old NZ (hense middle earth). I'm a progressive rock nut and the name Toltec_7 comes from a song by the same name.

drdementor

December 2nd, 2004, 7:56 pm

Oh, okay, the CumbresToltec line is an old coal train that runs through the Rockies (of the USA) and is now a tourist attraction; you get to see a lot of great scenery and get your face blackened with soot.

_Arianna_

December 2nd, 2004, 7:59 pm

I wish I could identify with Ron or Harry for Hermoine's affection, but I can't. Evidence for either ship aside, I wouldn't mind seeing Neville end up with Hermoine.

I don't necessarily agree with you on the whole Neville/Hermione relationship, but I definitely hope Neville ends up with a girl. Poor kid, he deserves it. I don't really see it happening with Hermione though.

drdementor

December 2nd, 2004, 8:10 pm

I don't necessarily agree with you on the whole Neville/Hermione relationship, but I definitely hope Neville ends up with a girl. Poor kid, he deserves it. I don't really see it happening with Hermione though.

OH MY GOSH! I have been rooting for Neville and Hermione since this summer, and no one else has joined me on HMS Leaky Potions Raft. There are several reasons Neville and Hermione would be perfect for each other, though they are never going to end up together in canon.

1) Complementary skills. Hermione can make all their potions, Neville can grow all their plants.

2) Hermione notices Neville's needs and cares for him already.

3)Neville appreciates Hermione's help. He doesn't feel threatened by her. He asked her out to the Ball BECAUSE she is always so nice and helpful.

4)Neville is NOT stupid, he has a poor memory and poor self-esteem. And he is dreadful at potions. But McGonagall said there was nothing wrong with his Transfiguration work but lack of confidence.

5) We don't know what Neville does in most of his spare time, but he does read the 'Magical Plants' book. I don't know that he's a true bookworm, but it's possible.

6) Neville is interested in experimentation and research; he is trying to find out all the things Mimbulus mimbletonia can do. Hermione is obviously interested in researching things in a library (interest in potions research is so far entirely existent in fanfiction only). But they both do share a love of discovery!

7) Neville is good at noticing people. He figures out rather quickly that Sirius Black is not Harry's worst enemy, but a dear friend. Granted, he had a lot of clues, like Sirius fighting Bellatrix and Harry being upset at his death, but there are those who would have ignored those visible clues and thought only of what they 'knew.'

So, I think that Hermione and Neville could make a good team. While Hermione may currently not see Neville as anywhere close to her intellectually, he could surprise her by going into a brainy field such as plant research. Neville can look past Hermione's competent exterior and see the sensitive nature and her insecurities. She could help him find his keys and his toad.

It will never happen, but if Jo did write Hermione and Neville, it would be tremendous. And Snape would die of the shock and horror.

LunaB13

December 2nd, 2004, 8:21 pm

OH MY GOSH! I have been rooting for Neville and Hermione since this summer, and no one else has joined me on HMS Leaky Potions Raft. There are several reasons Neville and Hermione would be perfect for each other, though they are never going to end up together in canon.

1) Complementary skills. Hermione can make all their potions, Neville can grow all their plants.

2) Hermione notices Neville's needs and cares for him already.

3)Neville appreciates Hermione's help. He doesn't feel threatened by her. He asked her out to the Ball BECAUSE she is always so nice and helpful.

4)Neville is NOT stupid, he has a poor memory and poor self-esteem. And he is dreadful at potions. But McGonagall said there was nothing wrong with his Transfiguration work but lack of confidence.

5) We don't know what Neville does in most of his spare time, but he does read the 'Magical Plants' book. I don't know that he's a true bookworm, but it's possible.

6) Neville is interested in experimentation and research; he is trying to find out all the things Mimbulus mimbletonia can do. Hermione is obviously interested in researching things in a library (interest in potions research is so far entirely existent in fanfiction only). But they both do share a love of discovery!

7) Neville is good at noticing people. He figures out rather quickly that Sirius Black is not Harry's worst enemy, but a dear friend. Granted, he had a lot of clues, like Sirius fighting Bellatrix and Harry being upset at his death, but there are those who would have ignored those visible clues and thought only of what they 'knew.'

So, I think that Hermione and Neville could make a good team. While Hermione may currently not see Neville as anywhere close to her intellectually, he could surprise her by going into a brainy field such as plant research. Neville can look past Hermione's competent exterior and see the sensitive nature and her insecurities. She could help him find his keys and his toad.

It will never happen, but if Jo did write Hermione and Neville, it would be tremendous. And Snape would die of the shock and horror.

Makes sense. I don't root for it, but I do agree with your points, that the two do complement each other and would work out well. Though I really prefer Neville with Ginny and HErmione with Ron. But Hermione/Neville would work.

yxs

December 2nd, 2004, 8:26 pm

Further or in the wrong direction.
As everything but your way is the wrong direction (before no one's even mentioned the direction) then there is not much point to discuss.

I've noticed that discussing with you in here doesn't really take anywhere, cause you seem to know it all already. ;)

Anyway, yes... think further

Polychrome

December 2nd, 2004, 8:26 pm

I don't think Voldy is human enough to want romance.

Romance is one thing. Lust is another. Which is why there being an "affair" between Voldemort and Bellatrix almost makes sense. The infidelity and lust just seems to put the seal on everything evil they've done. I'm almost with Claudia on this. It's like the straw that broke the camel's back.

Edit: I'm starting to wonder... How will this affect Mr. Lestrange's relationship with his wife? Or his loyalty to Voldemort?

luna_fan16

December 2nd, 2004, 8:27 pm

hmm. The Neville/hermione thing could work, but I don't support it. I perfer to see Neville with Ginny and Hermione with Ron. But it could work. By the way, :birthday: to LunaB13!

yxs

December 2nd, 2004, 8:32 pm

drdementor

December 2nd, 2004, 8:43 pm

Somehow I just can't see Neville/Hermione...

I'm thinking of Hermione as the main heroine in here again... But can't help it that she has such status in the books.
She's between two guys, main males in this story... she's gonna go with one of them... it just has been having... that kind of... smell from the start. lol

Oh yeah, I definitely agree that that is what Jo is working toward. Hermione is going to fall hard for one of her dear pals. It's just that I like to analyse all the possibilities, and see who could be suited for one another if they weren't constrained by anything else.

Neville and Hermione would work really, really well if they could get to the 'marriage" stage, but they'd fall apart in the in between stages, I think.

*Neville is socially more brave than Harry or Ron (he asked Hermione and Ginny out no sweat, apparently), but it's unlikely that he could make his feelings known

*Hermione currently does consider Neville as more of a person to help out than as her equal in anything

*their dating life would bring them a lot of flak, especially if they were still in school, and their own insecurities would get in their way and make them doubt themselves and their feelings for each other

*Hermione could get frustrated with Neville's parents' situation. It's a problem that's potentially solvable, and she likes solving problems to help people, but may be scared to put Neville through the emotional turmoil. Neville is also obviously ultra-sensitive on the subject, and might not appreciate Hermione's interest in trying to solve what he has been forced to deal with for years. If she did try, but she failed, that could be a real blow as well. And even if she succeeded, that would raise as many problems as it solved, as Alice and Frank would probably still have some PTS and would be getting to know their son as an adult. It would be great to have them, and I hope that it can happen, but it would be its own emotional rollercoaster and might be a lot easier if Neville and Hermione were just friends.

If Neville and Hermione could grow apart, then meet up again as adults, with Neville more confident and gainfully employed, they could have a chance, but I think Hermione's going to marry her highschool sweetheart.

yxs

December 2nd, 2004, 9:13 pm

*Hermione currently does consider Neville as more of a person to help out than as her equal in anything

That's the problem I see in here.

Hermione might be insecure inside about some things... but I don't think she'd consider anyone she doesn't feel as her equal as her love interest.
The guy needs to be charismatic enough for her. She has her sides that need to be "tamed" and I think she feels she needs someone strong who could do that. Who's up to the challenge... and well, who's already been too.
So far we only know two boys who don't mind Hermione's company most of the time and have chosen her as their very best friend.
Basically... I think she feels that she needs to respect that person more.
She is rather strong-willed, gifted herself. She is demanding, and she will demand certain qualities from her future parter too. That won't disappear.
It's either Ron or Harry.
I think Ron has it in him to hm, "prove" himself too... to Hermione also.
And as Rowling seems to work in that direction, it's probably gonna be Ron.
But the way Hermione's been acting in books with Harry, Harry could very easily be the one instead.

Melcb98

December 2nd, 2004, 9:19 pm

About Hermione and Neville....I don't think that is going to happen. I think that for several reasons, and one of them is because on JKRs website, the question about Hermione's affection is between Ron and Harry, nobody else. And she answers it in a way that makes me believe that Hermione likes Ron (or Harry).

drdementor

December 2nd, 2004, 9:21 pm

Yeah, that's for sure the way I see it going. I think it'll end up being Ron. I just think it's fun to imagine the pairs that could work great if they were already established WITHOUT changing the people's personalities drastically.

I mean, some people like to write Hermione and Snape (as adults, usually), and they're usually pretty good fics because Hermione and Snape are both witty and interesting. They generally start off as intellectual/professional friends, then grow to respect and like each other in other ways... Hermione's friends, especially Ron, are generally complete gits or dummies, who are threatened by Hermione's abilities and keep dragging her down to their level.

But in 'real life' Snape is actually very threatened by Hermione's brains, far more than any of her peers are, and he would never enjoy talking about potions with her because he'd think she was being uppity and trying to out-do him. So they could never even have the intellectual bit, and certainly not any of the rest of it. Because all the rest usually requires some major character changes.

For Neville and Hermione to work, all that would have to happen would be for them to see and appreciate what is already there, so they could get along fine if they were already established, but there's just too much in the way for that romance to be at all likely in canon.

For Ron and Hermione to work, or for Harry and Hermione to work, they basically just need to add physical attraction on top of friendship, continue to develop as friends and as people, and accept each other's flaws more and more.

Nathaniel

December 2nd, 2004, 9:22 pm

Ya' know, yxs, you're very confusing. I know you don't ship, but what you post can be a tad... (what is the word I'm looking for?)

Sometime it seems you support H/Hr... But sometimes it seems you support R/Hr...

That's the problem I see in here.

Hermione might be insecure inside about some things... but I don't think she'd consider anyone she doesn't feel as her equal as her love interest.

Good point :tu:

The guy needs to be charismatic enough for her. She has her sides that need to be "tamed" and I think she feels she needs someone strong who could do that. Who's up to the challenge... and well, who's already been too.

I would say Harry.

So far we only know two boys who don't mind Hermione's company most of the time and have chosen her as their very best friend.
Basically... I think she feels that she needs to respect that person more.
She is rather strong-willed, gifted herself. She is demanding, and she will demand certain qualities from her future parter too. That won't disappear.
It's either Ron or Harry.

Exactly... and I think Harry can (and has, at times), agreed with what Hemrione may actually need in her LI (granted that's speculation, but hey... :D)

I think Ron has it in him to hm, "prove" himself too... to Hermione also.
And as Rowling seems to work in that direction, it's probably gonna be Ron.
But the way Hermione's been acting in books with Harry, Harry could very easily be the one instead.

And here is where I get confused. You seem to think that J.K.R. is going R/Hr, but I've seen you really defend H/Hr.

Don't get me wrong... I like your posts... but sometimes I'm not sure if you really do have a preference or not.

Gotta go... be back tomorrow (I hope I'll be back before we're on page 20 :scared: )