Who will fall in love with whom? v40

[delemtri]

That's a great point. I've always felt for Harry and Ginny to get together they have break out of the Hero/damsel cliche and become equals. Role reversal is the first step. Now, I'm anticpating Ginny being the one to save Harry's life in the next few books and they can be equals. :)

The concept of life-debt seems to make this an even more probably next step.

[Adel]

Yeah, she'll sweep him away with her good judgment.

No, she will sweep him away with her caring character.

[mrs_bombadil]

I wish I could remeber, but I dont! It was like three years ago or something. I know it was an online chat, possibly CBBC Newsround, but I'm really not sure.......

No, it's one of those "urban legend" quotes that nobody has been able to validate. Supposedly something like this:

UNVERIFIED INTERVIEW:
From a German Magazine a few years ago:
"Harry wird mit jemandem beenden, der in allen vier Büchern gewesen ist, obwohl es Hermione nicht sein wird."
Translation:
"Harry will end up with somebody who was in all four books, although it will not be Hermione."

There have been a few along those lines (not always ruling Hermione out) that I've heard of but...again, no validation.

[delemtri]

No, she will sweep him away with her caring character.

You're right. Nagging is so hot. But you're missing the most important step: the "realization" that Harmonians believe Harry will suddenly come to when, as Ron did in GOF, he begins to see Hermione as a girl.

[McBeth]

or be an extremely intuitive and understanding person

Ginny brought Luna and Neville into the group; she has given these 2 the most credit all along. I think Ginny has shown a lot of ability to value different kinds of people with different experiences and perspectives. Remember, she and Luna were the ones who facilitated the use of the thestrals. Ginny's reaction after her father was attacked (the wide awake staring into the fire) shows a certain depth and resolve and....well, I won't turn these exchanges into longer OT appraisals ;)

I believe Ginny can make friends and value Neville and Luna because she's a kind and caring person - but we don't know if she has deep conversations, or really gets to the heart.

And as for her staying up, staring into the fire after Mr. Weasley was attacked, I can easily understand how she feels. Anyone who's soft-hearted wouldn't fall asleep when their father's in the hospital with no word on how he is.

Believe it or not because of the fact that's Luna's scene was about such a major issue. She was the right person at the right time. With Ginny, I see it as more of a "mundane" (can't really find the best word) type of comfort that could happen repeatedly, about different things. Not just right person right time but seems to have more potential to be right person, a lot of the time. I'm not sure if I've made sense here....sorry.

The problem is, I don't see either instances where Ginny helped Harry (Posession and Library Scene) as being particularly comforting.

You may want to read my essay, Eclipse (the link is in my sig), if you haven't already, as it's my full analysis of Harry and Luna's conversation, you may see where I'm coming from if you do.

[Lady Vorn]

I love the idea of role reversal and Ginny and Harry becomming equals, and I think it would fit in totally with the books. It makes sense really. Harry needs someone equal to him, who can take him on, who can fight by his side, not some blibblering idiot who just gets in the way all the time. Cho, anyone.........

[Moonstruck]

How do we know it will?

Because 1) there are still two books to go (two years for Ron) and all the characters will be growing up in those books/years and 2) Luna is now a friend, Ron's opinion of her will have to change (just like Hermione's will).

The question should be what will Ron's new opinion of her will be?

By looking at Ron's personality, regardless of any immature and/or dense moments he may have, I cannot see him ever having an appreciation for someone like Luna, expecially since he grew up in a house under the eye of a very, very level-headed and practical woman.

I guess opinions differ. Through, I hope the next two books will answer it. :)

You mean to say Ron has an understanding of how Luna works because she does ramble about her beliefs at times? I never got that impression - I thought he dismissed her as mental and nothing more.

I did not mean that he thinks this now. I meant that will be what Ron will have to do. In the future. Not the present. He won't have to have an interest in her ideas. He will just need an understanding of why Luna's like that.

[Anakin Solo]

let's look at the Heron ship. Are the Heron shippers Chocalates or Moonlights first, or Heron's first? Hermione and Ron are polar opposites. Ron seems to exemplify some of the characteristics which Hermione seems to dislike a lot, disrespect for teachers, a lack of much of a study habit...you get the picture. One thing that I can't get past is that In the Philosophers stone I saw Hermione become friends with Ron through Harry... Harry is constantly the middle ground between the bickering ron and Hermione...

I can't see Moonlight working because Luna and Harry are in different houses, Luna will never be as big as Hermione and Ron. I mean, I can see Harry visiting the Grangers, but I can't imagine him going to the Lovegoods for Christmas!

[delemtri]

And as for her staying up, staring into the fire after Mr. Weasley was attacked, I can easily understand how she feels. Anyone who's soft-hearted wouldn't fall asleep when their father's in the hospital with no word on how he is.

No question. But Mrs. Bombadil's characterization of it as evidence of "depth and resolve" seems to suggest that she's interested in more than the mere fact that Ginny was worried. What do you make of her staring into the fire as opposed to the reactions of Harry and her brothers?

[FlyingPhoenix]

She is answering the question as she has answered many, many other questions in the past. There is no reason - other than utter paranoia - to presume that she means something different than what any human being would understand her to mean. Regardless of what was happening in the media. Rowling is not that easily distracted.

Maybe Its my lack of english or just a simple fact that I'm talking about something differently as you do. I said it in my post it doesn't matter, it isn't important what happened in this time period because it don't negate what I'm saying. It may even be interesting that you keep answering to the part where I don't mention what I'm talking about, I quote for you:

However I argued whether her answer can even count as negate of H/Hr, says if I expect H/Hr in book7 and she appears as if H/Hr in OotP is pretty nonsense does that negate my ship? Like said before it don't. Most members of HMS Harmony never argued that H/Hr would happen in book5 at all.

Of course it doesn't. She very rarely gives straight yes or no answers to anything. That doesn't mean that her hints are not often quite broad and easy to understand.

Hints which you may misread there is nothing what says your thinking is more right than mine.

It is not illogical. It is basic knowledge of English idioms and plain common sense.

Your common sense aren't common sense of everybody else. You can't put your exeptions into JKR's words though she didn't say it. Its illogical to assume that she means the very same like you assume. You said yourself JKR gives merely hints, dodgy hints which will appear quite differently after we read all 7 books, so you can't say H/Hr isn't what she will write if you don't have the same kind of knowledge like she has. She does have a very different understanding of HP as you and I have. Its not correct even so to dare and assume one ship won't happen if she hadn't said it clearly.

And thanks for assumeing I don't have such knowledge :nc:

I already gave you the reasons. There has to be time for editing, voice-overs, artwork, video effects, etc., most of which must be done after the actual interview, which naturally makes up the bulk of the footage. Perhaps if you could see the whole segment you would understand what I mean, but unfortunately the only video available seems to be the brief clip of that quote that I and my shipmates loved so much.

It just fails that you spell it slowly to me Sarcasm

You said this after I asked you, it would be an improvment if not everybody assumes we are all from one little Island (and yes I'm speaking about USA)

You were saying that the events surrounding the release (the early reviews, spoilers, etc.) affected the way she was answering questions. I am simply saying this is not possible, given the time period in which the interview most likely took place.

But this wasn't my main-point.

Of course it doesn't! The quote made its way onto the net before OotP even came out, and I spent the subsequent year and a half debating you personally as well as a great number of your shipmates. I know the quote doesn't negate H/Hr for you. But that doesn't stop me being amazed. Frankly, I'm amazed that anyone who has read GoF and OotP can still believe it's actually going to happen. But here we are, still debating. *boggles*

And imagine before book5 there were so less H/Hr shipper than now. That's amazing.

I think it's been stated several times that my shipmates and I pretty universally understood that quote as applying to future books. NOT book 5

Why? JKR had an interview with Couric because book5 was about to be published uhm why should I assume Couric asks for book7 if this interview happens just because of book5 and is focused at it?

First of all, you're quite wrong in thinking that most of us expected R/Hr to happen in book 5. We've told you many, many, many, many times. But you persist in forgetting.

Well, I'm not forgetting the time before you showed off and I know there were a lot R/Hr shipper who wanted to hold a party and one rather famous shipper asked me if I did come back after book5.

If you want to think we're silly for not subscribing to the same Quote Religion as you do, go ahead. I, personally, care not.

Ah, not silly this wouldn't my use of words.

Hm. It appears you were annoyed

Why should I be annoyed? Wouldn't you think I know your game by now? We're debating with another since at least OotP came out, I just can't remember when you joined the DT. You brought that interview if I'm not that wrong as one of the first up on the DT, we debated about it too dead neither did you see my nor I your point.

Though I would think on DT we were a little bit nicer to another.

In answer to your question, though, I don't know if I'd use language as strong as "hopeless fools." That's rather a mean way to put it. In the nicest terms I can conjure, I do think that you and your shipmates are attempting to force canon to match your preferences. If you prefer H/Hr and wish that JKR would write it, that's one thing, and I have absolutely nothing against that. What you prefer is what you prefer. But to insist that this is what JKR has planned all along is highly contradictory to my own understanding of how stories have worked for centuries, and I can't help feeling that you're setting yourself up for disappointment. I'm sorry if that sounds rude or presumptuous, but that is my honest and personal opinion. I'm sure you think something similar about my shipping position yourself. And the reason we come here to debate is not to kiss up to each other or win points or come up with ingenious theories, but to come to an intellectual understanding about what J.K. Rowling is trying to accomplish with the Harry Potter books. At least that's why I'm here

Then I'm missing the intellectual understanding here if we are talking about her interviews rather than about her books and characters.

And, no, I don't think something similar. Different as you might expect I do respect others interpretation. I tried more than once to see things from different sides however I react bit allergic if someone trys to act on me like Umbridge at Hagrid.

[Anakin Solo]

I love the idea of role reversal and Ginny and Harry becomming equals, and I think it would fit in totally with the books. It makes sense really. Harry needs someone equal to him, who can take him on, who can fight by his side, not some blibblering idiot who just gets in the way all the time. Cho, anyone.........










Hermione can fight with Harry, is already his equal, and has been the only person to ever stand up to him, other than Neville in PS

[McBeth]

No question. But Mrs. Bombadil's characterization of it as evidence of "depth and resolve" seems to suggest that she's interested in more than the mere fact that Ginny was worried. What do you make of her staring into the fire as opposed to the reactions of Harry and her brothers?

I believe Ginny is more soft-hearted. I can relate to that.

[Adel]

You're right. Nagging is so hot. But you're missing the most important step: the "realization" that Harmonians believe Harry will suddenly come to when, as Ron did in GOF, he begins to see Hermione as a girl.

No, you're right, bickering and insulting are so much better. There are still two books to go, anything can happen. H/G, H/Hr, R/Hr, whatever. And doesn't Ron still need to "realize" that he is in love with Hermione? Or so some Herons claim...

Besides, does Harry see Ginny as a "girl"? Or isn't she still Ron's little sister for him? You cannot argue against H/Hr with "Harry does not see her in a romantical light" when the same applies to H/G.

[mrs_bombadil]

No question. But Mrs. Bombadil's characterization of it as evidence of "depth and resolve" seems to suggest that she's interested in more than the mere fact that Ginny was worried. What do you make of her staring into the fire as opposed to the reactions of Harry and her brothers?

You are correct, I wasn't referring to worry.

[delemtri]

Ron seems to exemplify some of the characteristics which Hermione seems to dislike a lot

Proof that she dislikes them rather than just not embodying them herself?

disrespect for teachers

Same for Hermione - Hagrid, Umbridge, etc. And certainly for Harry (Snape?).

a lack of much of a study habit

The same goes for Harry.

...you get the picture.

Yeah, but it's just a bunch of scribbles.

One thing that I can't get past is that In the Philosophers stone I saw Hermione become friends with Ron through Harry... Harry is constantly the middle ground between the bickering ron and Hermione...

Untrue; they became friends around the troll, which Ron defeated, not Harry (am I remembering correctly?).

[mrs_bombadil]

Besides, does Harry see Ginny as a "girl"? Or isn't she still Ron's little sister for him? You cannot argue against H/Hr with "Harry does not see her in a romantical light" when the same applies to H/G.

Yes, but which one has more potential to catch Harry by surprise?

[Charmed Cheese]

I see what Hermione has done and I see what Ginny has done... Nope, Hermione and Ginny are not equal. Then again it's not easy to compete against someone who has been playing an important role from the beginning...
Ginny is showing maturity and wisdom that Hermione doesn't? Where? No, honestly, which of the 5 scenes where Ginny plays actually a more major role do you mean? When she doesn't question Harry's motive? Or where she doesn't remind him of the consequences his actions might have?

They may not be equal in terms of their roles as character, but in terms as people they are equal.

Where does Ginny have strengths where Hermione doesn't? For one, Ginny doesn't cower and cry when some one yells at her. Ginny is also able not to take everything so seriously. When Harry is made innocent, Hermione is still stressing about it, whereas Ginny is laughing and celebrating; it's not healthy to dwell on things like Hermione does, but that will come with growth.

I don't think it's a black and white issue where one girl is right and the other wrong, but Ginny's ability to not get stressed out or take everything so seriously is something very suited to Harry. If Harry is feeling stressed out about school and Voldemort, he doesn't need a girl who will say "Well you should feel stressed out because you're not organizing your time properly...". He needs someone to make him lighten up and make him laugh. Yes, something in this world are worth being anxious over, other are not.

Of course, Hermione has maturity and strenghts where Ginny doesn't, but if the girls didn't have varying degrees of flaws and stengths, Rowling wouldn't be a good writer.

[delemtri]

No, you're right, bickering and insulting are so much better. There are still two books to go, anything can happen. H/G, H/Hr, R/Hr, whatever. And doesn't Ron still need to "realize" that he is in love with Hermione? Or so some Herons claim...

No, we claim that (as JKR states) Ron began to realize it in GOF. Bickering and insulting *are* so much better; it proves Hermione isn't scared of Ron as she is of Harry, and that Ron can deal better than Harry with Hermione's nagging.

Besides, does Harry see Ginny as a "girl"? Or isn't she still Ron's little sister for him? You cannot argue against H/Hr with "Harry does not see her in a romantical light" when the same applies to H/G.

It doesn't; she's dating one of his better friends (Dean).

[McBeth]

I can't see Moonlight working because Luna and Harry are in different houses, Luna will never be as big as Hermione and Ron. I mean, I can see Harry visiting the Grangers, but I can't imagine him going to the Lovegoods for Christmas!

First off, would you not date someone because they were in a different house at Hogwarts? Besides, JKR did say we would see a different Common Room in the future, and that could very well be the Ravenclaw Common Room.

Secondly, I have no doubt Luna, Neville, and Ginny will become just as important to Harry in the future, just different then Ron and Hermione. Luna had a spectacular affect on Harry at the end of OotP.

[Adel]

Yes, but which one has more potential to catch Harry by surprise?

I don't think there is an easy answer to that. As he has known Hermione for longer and much better I'd say he would be much more surprised to discover he has feelings for his best friend than were he to discover his feelings for Ginny. Hermione would have been literally right before his nose.

[delemtri]

I don't think there is an easy answer to that. As he has known Hermione for longer and much better I'd say he would be much more surprised to discover he has feelings for his best friend than were he to discover his feelings for Ginny. Hermione would have been literally right before his nose.

Ha. Yeah, of course he'd be surprised to discover he has feelings for Hermione; there's *no reason for him to.* I'd be surprised if I had feelings for somebody I had no interest in, too.

What I suspect Mrs. Bombadil meant by "surprise" was to do something out of the ordinary that gave Harry a reason to become interested in them. The answer to this is obviously, I feel, Ginny.

[Charmed Cheese]

Yes, but which one has more potential to catch Harry by surprise?

Exactly, thank you for that simple statement which really is the heart of Harry noticing Hermione vs Ginny.

Furthermore, what's Harry going to notice in Hermione?

Harry: "Hermione, you are so loving! You go above and beyond to help me through my troubles:you do research for me, you risk your own reputation for me, you yell at anyone who insults me, and your willing to defend me no matter how badly I've treated you....

Hang on...Don't you do all those things for house elves too?" :huh:

;) Sorry couldn't resist. :p

[mrs_bombadil]

I believe Ginny can make friends and value Neville and Luna because she's a kind and caring person - but we don't know if she has deep conversations, or really gets to the heart.

Nope, not yet we don't.

And as for her staying up, staring into the fire after Mr. Weasley was attacked, I can easily understand how she feels. Anyone who's soft-hearted wouldn't fall asleep when their father's in the hospital with no word on how he is.

I'm not talking about her worry though; quiet alertness is hard to define though...

The problem is, I don't see either instances where Ginny helped Harry (Posession and Library Scene) as being particularly comforting.

The language is so similiar to the scene with Luna though:

Harry hardly dared believe her, yet his heart was lightening almost in spite of himself.

Harry looked at her. Perhaps it was the effect of the chocolate - Lupin had always advised eating some after encounters with Dementors - or simply because he had finally spoken aloud the wish that had been burning inside him for a week, but he felt a bit more hopeful.

You may want to read my essay, Eclipse (the link is in my sig), if you haven't already, as it's my full analysis of Harry and Luna's conversation, you may see where I'm coming from if you do.

I will...have you read my post on the significance of the descriptions of Harry's heart?

[Adel]

What I suspect Mrs. Bombadil meant by "surprise" was to do something out of the ordinary that gave Harry a reason to become interested in them. The answer to this is obviously, I feel, Ginny.

Ooops, okay I misunderstood her. I agree with you. But that's only because he doesn't know her that much, compared to Hermione and Ron.

That's my last reply for the night. I'm off to bed.

[Spotty]

He, he, he .... shippers make me laugh...

I don't actually outwardly ship anything but I would say, if any, that Hr/R and H/L are the most likely.

I've pretty much ruled out Harmony as I personally don't see any evidence from the actual text hinting at it and also looking at Jk' herselfs quotes.. quite a few practically rule out Harmony..

The statement of Ginny being a "typical teenage girl" is really offensive to teenage girls. Honestly, if you said "Dean's a typical black boy" I'm sure you would turn more heads.
For a start, I'm a teenage girl and that doesn't offend me at all. I would certainly say that you could generalize most teenage girls, most of the girls at my school are what I would call 'typical teenage girls'
Also a 'typical teenage girl' is exactly what Ginny is, IMO.

[delemtri]

I'm not talking about her worry though; quiet alertness is hard to define though...

But it's also so very impressive. There's an intensity that comes (anybody who's done it) from staring at the fire... I've been thinking for awhile of a sort of Captain Planet-type elemental description of Harry and Ginny; Harry is lightning (his scar, quick to anger, powerful, light in a dark place) and Ginny is clearly fire (red hair, intensity, "fiery" personality - remember when she flipped out at Malfoy in *book two*?, this scene).

I'm glad to see H/L vs. H/G is becoming more common here.

[McBeth]

I'm not talking about her worry though; quiet alertness is hard to define though...

I think I can understand how she feels - when you're a really soft-hearted person, you can't fall asleep because of so many fears and sentimental things going through your mind at once.

The language is so similiar to the scene with Luna though:

Harry hardly dared believe her, yet his heart was lightening almost in spite of himself.

Harry looked at her. Perhaps it was the effect of the chocolate - Lupin had always advised eating some after encounters with Dementors - or simply because he had finally spoken aloud the wish that had been burning inside him for a week, but he felt a bit more hopeful.

All the same, there is a distinct difference. Jo ended the part of the chapter on the "lessening" sentance. I also believe the Moonlight scene was more dramatic, and my view of that really isn't biased - it's just the way it hits me.

I will...have you read my post on the significance of the descriptions of Harry's heart?

Can you post the link, please?

[delemtri]

I think I can understand how she feels - when you're a really soft-hearted person, you can't fall asleep because of so many fears and sentimental things going through your mind at once.

No, this is the exact opposite of what Mrs. Bombadil is trying to get at. What's important about this scene isn't Ginny's softness - which I don't think exists - but her *hardness* - the surprising intensity and introversion exemplified by staring into the fire. When I read that scene, I imagined flames dancing in Ginny's big brown eyes. She is a badass.

[GilyAnn]

I'm sorry, but I believe you're dead-wrong about this.

JKR is Christian. Afterlife is one of the Christian beliefs. That's why I don't believe Luna believes she will see her mother again on this earth. I think she believes in Dumbledore's "Death is Life's Next Great Adventure," instead. She's trying to prove to Harry that there is something to wonder about - that someday you'll see your loved ones again, if you are patient and steadfast in your plans.

Oh no, no. Luna is not saying that she will see her mother again here on earth. We know that people can't come back from the dead once they are properly dead, but still we are on a magical world and I do believe that Luna thinks that at some point she will be able to speak to her dead mother. I for once fervently believes that what PoA foreshadows is that Harry will talk to his parents at some point.



:wow: That is scary - I never realized that before.

:angel: Well my intention wasn't to scare anyone but yes there is a few things on the Ginny story line that seems to indicate or foreshadow a reverse or parelell role regarding Harry. I'm doing them by memory so I'm not remembering all but they are quite intriguing.


Considering this was in 2001, I don't see this as promoting Chocolate - it would have been one thing if the interview had been after OotP's release (obviously), but it wasn't. Instead, Ginny would have been pitied if she always liked Harry, but Harry never liked her back. But Ginny has moved on from her school-girl crush. She's not "long-suffering" anymore, to our knowledge.

Because it's a 2001 interview it shows so much. By then JKR knew that Ginny would give up on Harry. Furthermore the question isn't directed at what Ginny will do but rather at Harry. OotP still didn't answer that but I do believe that we will have an answer soon. :p

I don't know what to make of this - but I really don't see it as particularly pro-Chocolate, because oblivion is a boy thing.

Ahh! But this one goes along the last one, I like that quote a lot. JKR considers one of Harry's flaws this behaviour. Why should JKR consider it a flaw if Ginny will give up on Harry in a future? Why should she feel that this is wrong of Harry if she wasn't planning on rectifing this?

That's a great point. I've always felt for Harry and Ginny to get together they have break out of the Hero/damsel cliche and become equals. Role reversal is the first step. Now, I'm anticpating Ginny being the one to save Harry's life in the next few books and they can be equals.

:eyebrows: :tu: You are not the first to propossed that.

You may want to read my essay, Eclipse (the link is in my sig), if you haven't already, as it's my full analysis of Harry and Luna's conversation, you may see where I'm coming from if you do.

It wasn't directed at me but I will. ;) Do you mind if I comment on them here or would you preffer a PM?

Gily Ann

[Charmed Cheese]

For a start, I'm a teenage girl and that doesn't offend me at all. I would certainly say that you could generalize most teenage girls, most of the girls at my school are what I would call 'typical teenage girls'
Also a 'typical teenage girl' is exactly what Ginny is, IMO.

Well it's been my experience, when I was a teenage girl, that the "typical teenage girl" stereotype is irritating. I found it very frustrating to have people treat me like idiot because I was "just a 14 year old girl". Granted, all teenagers do stupid things, but it doesn't give people the right to look down on teenagers or treat them like their idiots.

If Ginny is this so call typical teenage girl, then Hermione is too.

[delemtri]

Well it's been my experience, when I was a teenage girl, that the "typical teenage girl" stereotype is irritating. I found it very frustrating to have people treat me like idiot because I was "just a 14 year old girl". Granted, all teenagers do stupid things, but it doesn't give people the right to look down on teenagers or treat them like their idiots.

If Ginny is this so call typical teenage girl, then Hermione is too.

Oh I dunno. It's pretty typical to live through a possession by the one of the most powerful and easily the most evil wizard ever, but being smart - that's way out of the ordinary.

[McBeth]

Oh no, no. Luna is not saying that she will see her mother again here on earth. We know that people can't come back from the dead once they are properly dead, but still we are on a magical world and I do believe that Luna thinks that at some point she will be able to speak to her dead mother. I for once fervently believes that what PoA foreshadows is that Harry will talk to his parents at some point.

I believe that too - but I don't think Luna's driving at that she thinks she'll speak to her in this life time.

It wasn't directed at me but I will. ;)

Thank you - this may help you see where I'm coming from with the whole veil thing. And yes, you can comment on it here - I've never actually gotten contructive critisism on it yet, and I'd love to hear some. :)

[Charmed Cheese]

Oh I dunno. It's pretty typical to live through a possession by the one of the most powerful and easily the most evil wizard ever, but being smart - that's way out of the ordinary.

:rotfl:
While I do think Hermione has done out of the ordinary things (not her intelligence), you do your raise a good point about Ginny being possessed.

One of the reactions to Ginny's quick dumping of Michael is that she's in a superficial relationship because of her immaturity.

However, this girl gave her heart to Tom and he ripped it out. If she's in superficial relationships it's because she's trying to gain a control that she couldn't have with Tom, while also remaining at an emotional distance. Ginny went through a figurative rape...it's going to leave psychological reprocussions.

[McBeth]

Well it's been my experience, when I was a teenage girl, that the "typical teenage girl" stereotype is irritating. I found it very frustrating to have people treat me like idiot because I was "just a 14 year old girl". Granted, all teenagers do stupid things, but it doesn't give people the right to look down on teenagers or treat them like their idiots.

If Ginny is this so call typical teenage girl, then Hermione is too.

If I called Ginny a typical teenage girl (I can't remember - I need to go back and look at the posts), I wasn't saying she was an idiot or anything of the sort. To the contrary, I hate people treating teenagers like their something different.

What I meant was about her noticing boys and dating them - I should say that's a habit of a typical, extroverted teenage girl. There's nothing wrong with it, either, I just can't say I'm typical in that respect, because the idea of dating at fourteen makes me feel a bit sick :p, so that's why I mark it as more typical.

[delemtri]

:rotfl:
While I do think Hermione has done out of the ordinary things (not her intelligence), you do your raise a good point about Ginny being possessed.

One of the reactions to Ginny's quick dumping of Michael is that she's in a superficial relationship because of her immaturity.

However, this girl gave her heart to Tom and he ripped it out. If she's in superficial relationships it's because she's trying to gain a control that she couldn't have with Tom, while also remaining at an emotional distance. Ginny went through a figurative rape...it's going to leave psychological reprocussions.

Can't we chalk up Ginny's dumping of Michael to him being an idiot?

Another point about Hermione's intelligence is that neither JKR nor any of the characters in the story have ever used the word "wisdom" in reference to her or described her as "wise." Let's stop calling her that, shall we? I'll give her "smart," but no more.

If I called Ginny a typical teenage girl (I can't remember - I need to go back and look at the posts), I wasn't saying she was an idiot or anything of the sort. To the contrary, I hate people treating teenagers like their something different.

What I meant was about her noticing boys and dating them - I should say that's a habit of a typical, extroverted teenage girl. There's nothing wrong with it, either, I just can't say I'm typical in that respect, because the idea of dating at fourteen makes me feel a bit sick :p, so that's why I mark it as more typical.

It's a squares-and-rectangles type deal. Typical extroverted teenage girls tend to notice boys and date them, but not everybody who notices boys and dates them is a typical extroverted teenage girl.

[mrs_bombadil]

I think I can understand how she feels - when you're a really soft-hearted person, you can't fall asleep because of so many fears and sentimental things going through your mind at once.

Like delemtri has articulate well, I'm not talking about those aspects...I'm talking about intensity.

All the same, there is a distinct difference. Jo ended the part of the chapter on the "lessening" sentance. I also believe the Moonlight scene was more dramatic, and my view of that really isn't biased - it's just the way it hits me.

But that's my point...in a dramatic circumstance you expect drama. I'm talking about the potential to have an impact on somebody's day-to-day emotional well-being.

Can you post the link, please?

This is a post I made earlier today in response to somebody else. It has links to 3 of my posts about different aspects of Ginny.

http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=1597982&postcount=1745

By the way...I read your essay and it is quite good. I agree with you that Luna has accomplished something important. I just don't see that it's romantic (that's not to say that I think Luna and Harry would never date--they may very well just as she may actually end up on dates with Ron...I just don't think she's intended for either young man).

Unfortunately, the essay reminded me of something else...Luna's relatively flat affect. I don't see the possibility of passion with Harry. But I don't want to end the mini-review on a negative note...you have done a nice job analyzing the canon with that essay.

[Charmed Cheese]

If I called Ginny a typical teenage girl (I can't remember - I need to go back and look at the posts), I wasn't saying she was an idiot or anything of the sort. To the contrary, I hate people treating teenagers like their something different.

What I meant was about her noticing boys and dating them - I should say that's a habit of a typical, extroverted teenage girl. There's nothing wrong with it, either, I just can't say I'm typical in that respect, because the idea of dating at fourteen makes me feel a bit sick :p, so that's why I mark it as more typical.

Yeah, but in that respect, Hermione is a typical teenage girl too...noticing boys and dating them (Krum). So really the point becomes irrelevant if it applies to all love interest possibilities.

As for Luna, we'll she's just not a typical person, let alone teenage girl...lol!

Can't we chalk up Ginny's dumping of Michael to him being an idiot?


Well anyone who would choose Cho over Ginny is idiot...yes. :p

But I think there's a factor in there of Ginny not allowing herself to fully trust anyone. Harry will help through that. He has to prove to her he's not Tom Riddle....something he's already trying to prove to himself. The themes just fall into place so perfectly with H/G... ;)

[McBeth]

Like delemtri has articulate well, I'm not talking about those aspects...I'm talking about intensity.

No, no, no, I'm not saying Ginny was having a soft-hearted moment - on the outside, anyway. When a million thoughts and worries are flashing through your mind all at once, you're expression is bound to be intense.


As for the drama stand-point of Harry and Luna's conversation, I'll have to think about that.

This is a post I made earlier today in response to somebody else. It has links to 3 of my posts about different aspects of Ginny.

http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=1597982&postcount=1745

Thanks, I'll check it out. :)

By the way...I read your essay and it is quite good. I agree with you that Luna has accomplished something important. I just don't see that it's romantic (that's not to say that I think Luna and Harry would never date--they may very well just as she may actually end up on dates with Ron...I just don't think she's intended for either young man).

Unfortunately, the essay reminded me of something else...Luna's relatively flat affect. I don't see the possibility of passion with Harry. But I don't want to end the mini-review on a negative note...you have done a nice job analyzing the canon with that essay.

Thanks. :)

However, can you show me where there's passion in Harry's conversations with Luna or Ginny?

I don't think he loves either one of them at this point. He's unsure of exactly what his feelings are, expecially with Luna. I believe - if he gets into a relationship with either one of them - it will happen after friendship.

PS: Your signature may have too many text lines in it - the maximum amount allowed is 7. :)

[delemtri]

However, can you show me where there's passion in Harry's conversations with Luna or Ginny?

I keep interrupting Mrs. Bombadil, but there are two clearly passionate descriptions of Harry and Ginny together - once in the library scene, when Harry is said to have gotten rid of his "burning wish" (fits with Ginny = fire, eh?) and when Ginny stands up to him - notably when nobody else present can - after Harrysnake bites Arthur.

[McBeth]

I keep interrupting Mrs. Bombadil, but there are two clearly passionate descriptions of Harry and Ginny together - once in the library scene, when Harry is said to have gotten rid of his "burning wish" (fits with Ginny = fire, eh?) and when Ginny stands up to him - notably when nobody else present can - after Harrysnake bites Arthur.

I don't see how either of those instances are passionate - care to elaborate?

[Miss ERB]

No, you're right, bickering and insulting are so much better. There are still two books to go, anything can happen. H/G, H/Hr, R/Hr, whatever. And doesn't Ron still need to "realize" that he is in love with Hermione? Or so some Herons claim...

Besides, does Harry see Ginny as a "girl"? Or isn't she still Ron's little sister for him? You cannot argue against H/Hr with "Harry does not see her in a romantical light" when the same applies to H/G.


Well..I dont know I think he thinks of her as a person in her own right since after all she did help him fight off the death eaters..but yes right now its not in a romantic way..thats not to say it wont be. If H/G is to happen they have to get to know eachother better, spend some time together. I dont whats going to bring them together but I have a feeling JK wll have something happen.

[wigwig]

No question. But Mrs. Bombadil's characterization of it as evidence of "depth and resolve" seems to suggest that she's interested in more than the mere fact that Ginny was worried. What do you make of her staring into the fire as opposed to the reactions of Harry and her brothers?

somepeople when they are worried they shut themselves off
it shows that she doesn't know how to react she doesn't want to show how much she was hurt she is being strong for herself and she could just be just trying to work it out

ginny and harry and not good together she doesn't seem to understand him the way luna does . ginny seems to think in another way not the way luna does with this way of thinking they dont go.

[mrs_bombadil]

However, can you show me where there's passion in Harry's conversations with Luna or Ginny?

If I were to try to illustrate where it may already be showing, I'd have to go back to my lists of Ginny excerpts. I may at some point but I'm more referring to personalities again...for one her chant with the twins when Harry is cleared at the MoM.

I don't think he loves either one of them at this point. He's unsure of exactly what his feelings are, expecially with Luna. I believe - if he gets into a relationship with either one of them - it will happen after friendship.

Well, some general camaraderie anyway...like playing Quidditch :D

PS: Your signature may have too many text lines in it - the maximum amount allowed is 7. :)

Thanks...I think it's fixed now.

[delemtri]

somepeople when they are worried they shut themselves off
it shows that she doesn't know how to react she doesn't want to show how much she was hurt she is being strong for herself and she could just be just trying to work it out

ginny and harry and not good together she doesn't seem to understand him the way luna does . ginny seems to think in another way not the way luna does with this way of thinking they dont go.

I'm sort of surprised that you think Ginny doesn't "go with his way of thinking" as Ginny reacted to her father's injury the same exact way Harry reacted to knowing it might have been his fault and to Sirius's death.

[McBeth]

If I were to try to illustrate where it may already be showing, I'd have to go back to my lists of Ginny excerpts. I may at some point but I'm more referring to personalities again...for one her chant with the twins when Harry is cleared at the MoM.

I loved that scene. :elaugh: But, yeah, it's got to do with her personality more than anything.

I have a new question, though.

In the Library Scene, Harry described Ginny as looking "very windswept." IceKat55 described that comment as unbelievably complimentery in her essay. However, we know that Ginny had just been at Quidditch practice, flying around on her broomstick, so how do we know JKR doesn't mean it literally? I'm wondering what your take on this scene is, as you're a strong Chocolate shipper.

[Darynthe]

But Hermione would have helped things greatly if she had been empathetic in some way. Having someone not understand you're distress when you're that upset is not a good thing.

Luna has been described as calm and serene many times in OotP, like Dumbledore often is. I don't know how she would react in that kind of situation - but I doubt she would burst into tears. I think she's more intuitive to human emotions than Hermione is.

Yet she wasn't helping Harry calm down - no I don't think Harry could have been calm going into the DoM. But he could have been a lot calmer and less hastier than he was. Hermione telling him the fact that Sirius being held hostage in the DoM was so unlikely did not help things, expecially when Harry truly believed it was real himself, and that he must act now.


I feel you're being unfair with Hermione. She was as calm as possible. She dind't shout. We didn't have a capslock!Hermione as we had Harry, and I think she had a right to shout back after the way he was treating her, yet she didn't. Hermione preferred to be sincere and give unbiased judgement than to "calm" him. She couldn't do both. She couldn't both tell him truths and talk sweet to him so that he felt well. The truth is that he was being wrong and reckless. And he needs someone who tell him the truth and guides him.

Here is where we see her mostly as a strategist and counselor war-wise to Harry. She has that important role too plus that of being a friend.

I believe they both acted in the most logical way taking into account what they knew. They tried to contact members of the Order and then Sirius. It didn't work, consequently going to the DOM it was the only curse of action left. I don't blame Harry or her for Sirius Death. It was a sad casualty of war and Bellatrix crime.

[delemtri]

We didn't have a capslock!Hermione as we had Harry, and I think she had a right to shout back after the way he was treating her, yet she didn't.

I believe I may try to write a substantial post on this view - that Hermione will help Harry get rid of his "undesireable" characteristics. I've already written a short one on why Harry is not wrong to go CAPS!LOCK throughout OOTP.

[mrs_bombadil]

I loved that scene. :elaugh: But, yeah, it's got to do with her personality more than anything.

I have a new question, though.

In the Library Scene, Harry described Ginny as looking "very windswept." IceKat55 described that comment as unbelievably complimentery in her essay. However, we know that Ginny had just been at Quidditch practice, flying around on her broomstick, so how do we know JKR doesn't mean it literally? I'm wondering what your take on this scene is, as you're a strong Chocolate shipper.

I do believe it's literal but still complimentary...it provides imagery of ummmm slightly mussed hair, flushed cheeks, winded breath, etc ;)

I can say more later...but gotta run right now.

[delemtri]

I do believe it's literal but still complimentary...it provides imagery of ummmm slightly mussed hair, flushed cheeks, winded breath, etc ;)

I can say more later...but gotta run right now.

Agreed - I get a very good connotation from "windswept."

[McBeth]

I feel you're being unfair with Hermione. She was as calm as possible. She dind't shout. We didn't have a capslock!Hermione as we had Harry, and I think she had a right to shout back after the way he was treating her, yet she didn't. Hermione preferred to be sincere and give unbiased judgement than to "calm" him. She couldn't do both. She couldn't both tell him truths and talk sweet to him so that he felt well. The truth is that he was being wrong and reckless. And he needs someone who tell him the truth and guides him.

Here is where we see her mostly as a strategist and counselor war-wise to Harry. She has that important role too plus that of being a friend.

I believe they both acted in the most logical way taking into account what they knew. They tried to contact members of the Order and then Sirius. It didn't work, consequently going to the DOM it was the only curse of action left. I don't blame Harry or her for Sirius Death. It was a sad casualty of war and Bellatrix crime.

She needed to calm him down before she tried to reason with him - you can't reason with someone well at all when they're in that kind of rage and distress.

I'm not blaming Hermione, or anyone else, for anything that happened in the DoM. I'm just stating my opinion.

[delemtri]

She needed to calm him down before she tried to reason with him - you can't reason with someone well at all when they're in that kind of rage and distress.

I feel that this gives credence to the view that there are a few things about Harry that Hermione simply does not understand.

[terese36]

She needed to calm him down before she tried to reason with him - you can't reason with someone well at all when they're in that kind of rage and distress.

I'm not blaming Hermione, or anyone else, for anything that happened in the DoM. I'm just stating my opinion.

True. Hermione wasn't thinking very straight and just began reasoning. She needs to understand Harry more. I get this feeling that Luna or Ginny would be more understanding of Harry. Hermione has made harry feel better before, but it's all trival things compared with Sirius's death. Hermione, and even Ginny, just avoided talking about Sirius. I agree that it was a nice thought to leave Harry alone and not bother him, but not speaking will not help Harry deal with Sirius' death. Sometimes you need to talk things out to feel better. Luna did a very good job of that and I was amazed that she mananged to even lift Harry's burden a little. Of course, I'm not bashing Hermione or Ginny. They're wonderful characters, good friends of Harry, and I like them. But I think neither of them would be perfect love interests of Harry. Though any relationship with either one of them would turn out better than the fiasco with Cho.

[Oumou]

What I want to know is why can't Harry fall in love with Hermione if in the 6th book (hopefully) Harry like Hermione and Hermione thinks the same in return. Ron may like Hermione but if Hermione doesn't like him back then what will happen? In the 5th book on page 718 (US version) JKR puts in her own italics die ron die wouldn't that mean something. I thought that when JKR said that the chess scene in the 1st book/movie forshadowed the 2nd war. That means Ron sacrifices himself so I don't think that Hermione will be getting with Ron any time soon even if he lives past the 2nd war. I know this might seem confusing but I just confused myself.

[delemtri]

What I want to know is why can't Harry fall in love with Hermione if in the 6th book (hopefully) Harry like Hermione and Hermione thinks the same in return. Ron may like Hermione but if Hermione doesn't like him back then what will happen? In the 5th book on page 718 (US version) JKR puts in her own italics die ron die wouldn't that mean something. I thought that when JKR said that the chess scene in the 1st book/movie forshadowed the 2nd war. That means Ron sacrifices himself so I don't think that Hermione will be getting with Ron any time soon even if he lives past the 2nd war. I know this might seem confusing but I just confused myself.

There's no reason why Harry *can't.* There's also no reason why Dumbledore can't turn out to be evil, Fudge can't turn out to actually have a heliopath army, Malfoy kill his father and turn to the good side, etc. They're just not very likely.

JKR didn't say the chess scene foreshadowed the second war. That was a particularly ingenious theory featured in a North Tower article, but it is by no means canon.

[terese36]

Actually, I think Hermione has some feeling for Ron. She screamed when Ron sacrificed himself and almost moved out of her square. Wait, the moving part was in the movie. Anyway, Hermione was concerned over Ron and wanted to go back and help him after the game. So I think Hermione and Ron will be together, not Hermione and Harry. (Besides, Harry hasn't shown any feelings for Hermione for the first five books, so why would he for the last two?)

[McBeth]

There's no reason why Harry *can't.* There's also no reason why Dumbledore can't turn out to be evil, Fudge can't turn out to actually have a heliopath army, Malfoy kill his father and turn to the good side, etc. They're just not very likely.

Watch what you say about Fudge's Heliopaths. I take that theory very seriously. :evil:

BTW, terese36, your post was quite good, but I wanted to correct you on one thing - Hermione did try to talk to Harry about Sirius, but Ron hushed her. Ginny didn't make any move to talk to him, about it, though, I believe.

[terese36]

Sorry. I definitely need to reread the end of OotP. I hate getting my facts mixed up. Well, I'm being called for dinner, so I'm going to leave now.

[delemtri]

Watch what you say about Fudge's Heliopaths. I take that theory very seriously. :evil:

BTW, terese36, your post was quite good, but I wanted to correct you on one thing - Hermione did try to talk to Harry about Sirius, but Ron hushed her. Ginny didn't make any move to talk to him, about it, though, I believe.

You've done such a good job of lauding Luna that I'm almost ready to give it to you that she did a better job with Harry post-Sirius than Ginny. However, I'm wondering how you evaluate her ability to work with Harry on the other main issue following the MOM: the prophecy. How do you expect her, as a romantic partner, to help Harry deal with the realities of his situation?

[LunaB13]

Watch what you say about Fudge's Heliopaths. I take that theory very seriously. :evil:

I don't take that theory very seriously, but I wouldn't put it past Fudge to actually have an army of Heliopaths. If I were in Ravenclaw, I would definitely support Luna and take the side, "That there may not be proof for it, but there's no proof against it."

[McBeth]

You've done such a good job of lauding Luna that I'm almost ready to give it to you that she did a better job with Harry post-Sirius than Ginny. However, I'm wondering how you evaluate her ability to work with Harry on the other main issue following the MOM: the prophecy. How do you expect her, as a romantic partner, to help Harry deal with the realities of his situation?

I've been wanting to bring up this part of my shipping Harry/Luna for a long time now.

The reason I think Luna can calm Harry down better than anyone else currently in the picture, is because she reminds me shockingly of Dumbledore.

Allow me to explain why.

If you go back and look, both Luna and Dumbledore are always saying things "simply," "serenely," and "calmly." It's very, very strange.

They also have queer tastes - they love the novelty, the odd. People also generally believe them a bit . . . loony - until they get to know them, though. Harry got to know both Dumbledore and Luna, and, although he likely still thinks them both different and extraordinary, he has respect for them now (although he's still angered with Dumbledore).

What sets them apart is now that Dumbledore has failed for the first time to "make things right again" at then end of OotP, and Luna steps in and fills the vacancy. This makes me inclined to believe she has much better intuitive powers and people skills than even Dumbledore.

I could go on, but I think you get my drift.

I feel it's extremely strange that Luna has been described so much like Dumbledore. Expecially since JKR sighted in an interview that Dumbledore "often speaks for her." Interesting. . . .

Anyway, this is why I believe Luna could handle Harry a lot better than any other girl. Not because she's Dumbledore's twin as far as personality goes - but because she is like him, yet very different at the same time, and the differences only are pluses to her handling of Harry and the possibilty of future romance between the two.

[delemtri]

I've been wanting to bring up this part of my shipping Harry/Luna for a long time now.

The reason I think Luna can calm Harry down better than anyone else currently in the picture, is because she reminds me shockingly of Dumbledore.

Allow me to explain why.

If you go back and look, both Luna and Dumbledore are always saying things "simply," "serenely," and "calmly." It's very, very strange.

They also have queer tastes - they love the novelty, the odd. People also generally believe them a bit . . . loony - until they get to know them, though. Harry got to know both Dumbledore and Luna, and, although he likely still thinks them both different and extraordinary, he has respect for them now (although he's still angered with Dumbledore).

What sets them apart is now that Dumbledore has failed for the first time to "make things right again" at then end of OotP, and Luna steps in and fills the vacancy. This makes me inclined to believe she has much better intuitive powers and people skills than even Dumbledore.

I feel it's extremely strange that Luna has been described so much like Dumbledore. Expecially since JKR sighted in an interview that Dumbledore "often speaks for her." Interesting. . . .

Anyway, this is why I believe Luna could handle Harry a lot better than any other girl. Not because she's Dumbledore's twin as far as personality goes - but because she is like him, yet very different at the same time, and the differences only are pluses to her handling of Harry and the possibilty of future romance between the two.

Very nice...

[LunaB13]

Luna also seems to me the person that Harry would tell first about the prophecy. Ron would ask tons of questions before he understood it, Hermione would first get worried, then give him ton of information or books to read on how to deal with the situation, and Ginny would just be worried and fret over it. Or she'd say something along the lines of, 'Well, then we know Voldemort can be defeated." Luna, on the other hand, would be understanding and help him puzzled things through. She'd make him feel better and probabaly come up with reasons not to believe silly prophecies.

[Angua9]

What implications does this have for Harry Potter? Well, Hermione acts as Harry’s anima. This can be established clearly in the narrative. Before Harry faces Voldemort – to integrate his shadow – he must first integrate with his feminine half represented archetypally in the narrative by Hermione.

...Regardless of what you believe will be the ultimate ship, one thing remains a fact – in the archetypal journey to self-individuation, Harry and Hermione must somehow symbolically integrate in partnership for Harry to face and defeat Voldemort.
Ever since I first read your essay, Sienna, I have been puzzled why you (or the writer you mentioned) would ever think of describing Hermione as Harry's anima, much less assert this as fact(!).

I am no student of Jung, but what I know of the Jungian anima concept has nothing in common with Hermione in the HP books except femaleness. Jung's anima is something a male first glimpses in his dreams or deep in his unconscious, a mysterious alluring unobtainable female figure. This figure represents the female side of himself that he has lost (atrophied/repressed/whatever) as he grew up as a male. He unconsciously seeks his lost female self and attempts to project it upon real females in his world, always looking for the "right" one.

The nature of the anima in myth is that she is elusive and longed-for. She may be the object of a quest, or a mysterious figure that is only rarely glimpsed. The particular gifts that she brings are the things that are archtypically "not-male," mostly emotion and intuition, creativity, generativity, and spirituality. She may appear as a virginal Sleeping Beauty, as a crone or hag or monster, or as angel, will-o-wisp, or spiritual guide. Her presence is transformative -- changing the man -- and exalting -- bringing the man into a higher plane of reality.

Where does Hermione fit into this? She didn't appear to Harry in a dream or a distant glimpse; she barged into his train compartment and started bossing him around. Harry has never pursued her -- quite the opposite. She is always handy when he needs her. Hermione is NOT characterized by emotion, intuition, creativity, generativity, and spirituality, but by logic, rationality, knowledge, practicality, and good old-fashioned common sense. She doesn't transform Harry -- she arms him with useful tools, information, and advice.

To me, Hermione's archetypal role couldn't be more clear -- she is the Athena to his Odysseus, the Graeae to his Perseus, Ariadne to his Theseus, the chance-met crone who gives the hero three cryptic hints before he enters the enchanted forest. Hermione is the helpful female figure who arms and prepares the hero for his task.

Harry has no need to integrate with his helpful aid figure, only to accept her useful gifts and go about his quest.

[McBeth]

Very nice...

That's it?! I was expecting reservations for a ticket on the Moonlight ship at least! :evil:

J/K :lol:

Thanks. :)

[delemtri]

Luna also seems to me the person that Harry would tell first about the prophecy. Ron would ask tons of questions before he understood it, Hermione would first get worried, then give him ton of information or books to read on how to deal with the situation, and Ginny would just be worried and fret over it. Or she'd say something along the lines of, 'Well, then we know Voldemort can be defeated." Luna, on the other hand, would be understanding and help him puzzled things through. She'd make him feel better and probabaly come up with reasons not to believe silly prophecies.

Not sure why you would expect Ginny to get worried or fret about it.

ETA: Or why it's good for Harry *not* to believe the prophecy. I side much more with McBeth below.

[McBeth]

Luna also seems to me the person that Harry would tell first about the prophecy. Ron would ask tons of questions before he understood it, Hermione would first get worried, then give him ton of information or books to read on how to deal with the situation, and Ginny would just be worried and fret over it. Or she'd say something along the lines of, 'Well, then we know Voldemort can be defeated." Luna, on the other hand, would be understanding and help him puzzled things through. She'd make him feel better and probabaly come up with reasons not to believe silly prophecies.

Luna seems very, very philosophical to me - I'm pretty sure she would say something along the lines that fate can be controlled . . .

As for Ginny, I'm not sure what she'd do. I can see her reacting in a "Well let's go out and kill this guy!" kind of attitude. I don't mean that in a bad way, and I'm exaggerating, but you get what I mean. She's ready to go and fight as soon as she hears the word!

[LunaB13]

Not sure why you would expect Ginny to get worried or fret about it.

Well, maybe not fret about it. I don't think she quite that type. but she would probably be somewhat worried, then say something like "That's wonderful! Voldemort will definitely be defeated, if it's you he's after!"

[delemtri]

Well, maybe not fret about it. I don't think she quite that type. but she would probably be somewhat worried, then say something like "That's onderful! Voldemort will definitely be defeated, if it's you you're after!"

Er... why?

[LunaB13]

Er... why?

Ginny seems to be the type that can be very enthusiastic about some things and would have the attitude of 'lets's go get him'. She's probably encourage Harry to go after Voldemort and defeat him, though she would have some worries as to whether Harry will be killed or not.

[Hus]

what about ron and luna why cant they get together they seem to like each other and get on well

also luna's got a nice crush on ron they could work well together

[delemtri]

Ginny seems to be the type that can be very enthusiastic about some things and would have the attitude of 'lets's go get him'. She's probably encourage Harry to go after Voldemort and defeat him, though she would have some worries as to whether Harry will be killed or not.

What in canon makes you think she is this "type"?

[McBeth]

what about ron and luna why cant they get together they seem to like each other and get on well

also luna's got a nice crush on ron they could work well together

Luna's crush doesn't seem to be in action anymore. The evidence of her crush died about halfway through OotP.

Also, they don't get on well. Ron doesn't appreciate Luna at all, and he thinks her a lunatic and she greatly annoys him.

[LunaB13]

what about ron and luna why cant they get together they seem to like each other and get on well

also luna's got a nice crush on ron they could work well together

They might, and Luna does show signs of a crush on Ron. But Ron doesn't have the same feelings. he thinks, and has said that Luna is weird. He won't act like that after what happened in the DoM, but it doesn't look like Red Moon will happen. Ron has shown feelings for Hermione and he will probably ask her, not Luna, to a date in Hogsmeade.

[GrangerGal]

Ever since I first read your essay, Sienna, I have been puzzled why you (or the writer you mentioned) would ever think of describing Hermione as Harry's anima, much less assert this as fact(!).

I am no student of Jung, but what I know of the Jungian anima concept has nothing in common with Hermione in the HP books except femaleness. Jung's anima is something a male first glimpses in his dreams or deep in his unconscious, a mysterious alluring unobtainable female figure. This figure represents the female side of himself that he has lost (atrophied/repressed/whatever) as he grew up as a male. He unconsciously seeks his lost female self and attempts to project it upon real females in his world, always looking for the "right" one.

The nature of the anima in myth is that she is elusive and longed-for. She may be the object of a quest, or a mysterious figure that is only rarely glimpsed. The particular gifts that she brings are the things that are archtypically "not-male," mostly emotion and intuition, creativity, generativity, and spirituality. She may appear as a virginal Sleeping Beauty, as a crone or hag or monster, or as angel, will-o-wisp, or spiritual guide. Her presence is transformative -- changing the man -- and exalting -- bringing the man into a higher plane of reality.

Where does Hermione fit into this? She didn't appear to Harry in a dream or a distant glimpse; she barged into his train compartment and started bossing him around. Harry has never pursued her -- quite the opposite. She is always handy when he needs her. Hermione is NOT characterized by emotion, intuition, creativity, generativity, and spirituality, but by logic, rationality, knowledge, practicality, and good old-fashioned common sense. She doesn't transform Harry -- she arms him with useful tools, information, and advice.

To me, Hermione's archetypal role couldn't be more clear -- she is the Athena to his Odysseus, the Graeae to his Perseus, Ariadne to his Theseus, the chance-met crone who gives the hero three cryptic hints before he enters the enchanted forest. Hermione is the helpful female figure who arms and prepares the hero for his task.

Harry has no need to integrate with his helpful aid figure, only to accept her useful gifts and go about his quest.

Not only do I agree but I would like to remind everyone that it is made clear in the prophecy that Harry alone can defeat the Dark Lord. Like you said, he must use Hermione's gifts but he must also use Dumbledore's and Ron's gifts. He cannot use them (the actual people) in order to defeat Voldemort.

Hermione seems to me the opposite of unattainable. I always thought of the anima as being elusive, exotic. Hermione is none of those things. Despite her intelligence, she understands the needs and emotions of others which makes her empathetic to others and their needs. Her appearance may be attractive but it is also common. I also always thought of the anima as being mystic, which would point more to Luna than Hermione considering Hermione is rational and down-to-earth. Harry has never been mystified by Hermione, nor has he been put into a stupor by her. If anything Ron reacts to Hermione as something he cannot understand, cannot grasp and yet he is in awe of her. Harry has never felt this way.

As for reading Harry Potter and comparing it to Jung, we need to know if JKR has studied Jung in order to decide if she would even use this in her writing.

[LunaB13]

What in canon makes you think she is this "type"?

Ginny seemed to me a bit forceful in OotP. She spoke sharply with Harry when she told him that she had been controlled by Voldemort. She has taken initative, like with joining the D.A. and trying out for the Quidditch team. She's not shy anymore in front of Harry, is becoming more like the twins, and has a really mean bat-boget hex. I therefore see her as the type of person to have some worries, but still encourage Harry to fight Voldemort.

[Hus]

Also, they don't get on well. Ron doesn't appreciate Luna at all, and he thinks her a lunatic and she greatly annoys him

well we could say the same for ron and harmione.
ron fights with her
ron doesent appresciate her
and ron annoys harmione with his attitude

how can we say rons ready for woman he seem to not like them or makes them angry

[delemtri]

Ginny seemed to me a bit forceful in OotP. She spoke sharply with Harry when she told him that she had been controlled by Voldemort. She has taken initative, like with joining the D.A. and trying out for the Quidditch team. She's not shy anymore in front of Harry, is becoming more like the twins, and has a really mean bat-boget hex. I therefore see her as the type of person to have some worries, but still encourage Harry to fight Voldemort.

Why do you expect her to be relatively worried? ETA: And, again, why is it *good* that Luna would deny the veracity of the prophecy?

well we could say the same for ron and harmione.
ron fights with her
ron doesent appresciate her
and ron annoys harmione with his attitude

how can we say rons ready for woman he seem to not like them or makes them angry

Yeah, but they go for him anyway, now don't they?

[McBeth]

well we could say the same for ron and harmione.
ron fights with her
ron doesent appresciate her
and ron annoys harmione with his attitude

how can we say rons ready for woman he seem to not like them or makes them angry

Ron doesn't think Hermione's a lunatic. And he does appreciate her, he just doesn't have the easiest time coming out and saying thank you. However, he has thanked Hermione in the past, and he obviously cares for her and wants to put his best foot forward, because he spent money to buy her a bottle of perfume as a Christmas present.

[Hus]

Yeah, but they go for him anyway, now don't they?

delemtri what are you on about they go for him WHO DOES not harmione im sorry it might happen but it hasent happend yet harmione has shown NO love interest to ron that she hasent shown to harry.

[delemtri]

delemtri what are you on about they go for him WHO DOES not harmione im sorry it might happen but it hasent happend yet harmione has shown NO love interest to ron that she hasent shown to harry.

Mrs. Bombadil made a pretty amazing post on this awhile back - basically, if you read OOTP, in nearly every scene in which Harry and Hermione are alone together, Hermione mentions Ron, often in the beginning of the scene's dialogue.

[Hus]

Ron doesn't think Hermione's a lunatic. And he does appreciate her, he just doesn't have the easiest time coming out and saying thank you. However, he has thanked Hermione in the past, and he obviously cares for her and wants to put his best foot forward, because he spent money to buy her a bottle of perfume as a Christmas present.

i never said she was a lunatic

true ron does have a hard time showing his feeling's and when he does its usually i a fight a he looks stupid
sorry he cant look good in the fight hes arguing with the smartest witch in his year

what does that mean ron got harmione a gift so did HARRY you say this like harry wasent there and did nothing he got a gift to and harmione liked harry better.

[LunaB13]

Why do you expect her to be relatively worried? ETA: And, again, why is it *good* that Luna would deny the veracity of the prophecy?

Ginny isn't an idiot. She'll know that there's the possibilty that Harry could be killed. So she will have some worries. A person that isn't scared or worried at all is either crazy or too full of him or herself. And if Luna did say that prophecies are silly and that it's you who chooses your destiny, Harry would have a load off his mind. he wouldn't have to worry about kill or be killed. He could merely focus on working hard and taking charge so that when he does face Voldemort, he'll be able to defeat him. He wouldn't have any doubts or be so worked up.

[McBeth]

i never said she was a lunatic

I know you didn't. Ron is the one who thinks Luna in a lunatic.

what does that mean ron got harmione a gift so did HARRY you say this like harry wasent there and did nothing he got a gift to and harmione liked harry better.

Ron's gift was obviously a romantic gesture to Hermione, as perfume is a very boyfriend-gives-girlfriend type gift - Harry's gift wasn't. He got the typical gift for Hermione - a book. And we all know Hermione would rather have a book than perfume any day.

[Hus]

Mrs. Bombadil made a pretty amazing post on this awhile back - basically, if you read OOTP, in nearly every scene in which Harry and Hermione are alone together, Hermione mentions Ron, often in the beginning of the scene's dialogue.

look ron fans will find anything to help there cause.

and throught out the whole series so far she hasent mention harry a few too many times.

lets look at it

#. vicky gets a bit angry frustrated when harmione does nothin but talk about harry

#. the papers are even writin stories about h/hr

#. even rons mum gets angry with harmione about harry

#. she is forever helping harry talking about him or doing something for him

Ron's gift was obviously a romantic gesture to Hermione, as perfume is a very boyfriend-gives-girlfriend type gift - Harry's gift wasn't. He got the typical gift for Hermione - a book. And we all know Hermione would rather have a book than perfume any day.


rons gift was shippy but harmione thought nothing of it and ignored it compared to harrys gift she seemed over the moon with it

[GrangerGal]

look ron fans will find anything to help there cause.

and throught out the whole series so far she hasent mention harry a few too many times.

lets look at it

#. vicky gets a bit angry frustrated when harmione does nothin but talk about harry

#. the papers are even writin stories about h/hr

#. even rons mum gets angry with harmione about harry

#. she is forever helping harry talking about him or doing something for him




rons gift was shippy but harmione thought nothing of it and ignored it compared to harrys gift she seemed over the moon with it
And how did Harry react to all of these stories? And how did Hermione react to all of these stories? They both reacted the same way: "We are just friends!" Harry was relieved and almost started to laugh when Cho thought there might be something going on between himself and Hermione. He was relieved that Cho was just jealous over something that was completely ridiculous because he could never think of Hermione in that way.

[LunaB13]

I've got to go now. I'll be back tomorrow to discuss more about the love lives of the wonderful characters.

[Hus]

And how did Harry react to all of these stories? And how did Hermione react to all of these stories? They both reacted the same way: "We are just friends!" Harry was relieved and almost started to laugh when Cho thought there might be something going on between himself and Hermione. He was relieved that Cho was just jealous over something that was completely ridiculous because he could never think of Hermione in that way.

hey your right but my point is that ron and hamione are at the sam point as harmione and harry they havent started a ship YET. and i also beleave harry going to start showing interest in harmione

[noodle]

Hus - who is "harmione"?

[Polychrome]

But that's exactly the problem Luna has not accepted her mother's death. She lives hanging on to the hope that she will see her mother again, hoping to get and have another glimpse or encounter with her. That's not accepting someone's death it's holding on to them. Accepting is letting them go and remembering them how they wanted to be remember. Luna doesn't do that and I failed to see how Harry feeling less pity for Luna is helping the relationship.

In defense of Luna...

It's one thing to think a dead person will just walk through the door one day like nothing happened. It's another to believe that you'll see them in the afterlife.

[rightstuff]

Wow, I know Jung is sometimes complex to understand especially his archetypes that translates into literature but to make it simple

The shadow- personification of that part of human, psychic possiblity that we deny in ourselves and project onto others. The goal of personality integration is to integrate the rejected, inferior side of our life into our total experience and to take responsibility for it. Obviously this is Voldemort. in the narrative

The anima/animaus- personification of the positive engergies that support--even as the negative energies assault. The key point is that the anima serves as a guide. Although I think it can be argued the Hermione is a more direct anima to Harry, the Order itself can also be considered the anima.

The Syzygy -If one comes to terms with the Shadow and the Soul, one will encounter the enchanted castle with its King and Queen. This is a pattern of wholeness and integration. The opposites of the outer and the inner life are now joined in marriage. Great power arises from this integration. I belevie this is where everyone is missing the point, the anima does not necessarilly intergrates with the soul. This however is Hogwarts.

The Child Archetype is a pattern related to the hope and promise for new beginnings. It promises that Paradise can be regained. Once again this is Harry.

The ultimate pattern is the Self. For Jung this is the God image. Human self and divine self are incapable of distinction. All is Spirit. Images of Spirit abound. This is one I am having trouble with in the Potter universe.


Cheers

[mrs_bombadil]

Mrs. Bombadil made a pretty amazing post on this awhile back - basically, if you read OOTP, in nearly every scene in which Harry and Hermione are alone together, Hermione mentions Ron, often in the beginning of the scene's dialogue.

thanks for the credit...unfortunately I think Angua9 was the one who made the post you are referring to :)

[Anakin Solo]

Luna also seems to me the person that Harry would tell first about the prophecy. Ron would ask tons of questions before he understood it, Hermione would first get worried, then give him ton of information or books to read on how to deal with the situation, and Ginny would just be worried and fret over it. Or she'd say something along the lines of, 'Well, then we know Voldemort can be defeated." Luna, on the other hand, would be understanding and help him puzzled things through. She'd make him feel better and probabaly come up with reasons not to believe silly prophecies.

YOu honestly think that Harry would tell Luna, with whom has had one conversation, before Hermione and Ron?!


Hermione would first get worried, then give him ton of information or books to read on how to deal with the situation

THe Old Hermione from PS CoS and part of PoA would, but not the Hermione I've been seeing..er reading...in GoF and OoTP.

Ron would ask tons of questions before he understood it

Before OoTP I would have said yes, but I think that in HBP, Ron's maturity will have increased a lot more than Harry and Hermiones will IMO, and I believe he will take it in stride.

[FredFancier]

hey your right but my point is that ron and hamione are at the sam point as harmione and harry they havent started a ship YET. and i also beleave harry going to start showing interest in harmione

I disagree- Neither Harry nor Hermione show interest in each other. Yes, that can change (but based on what JKR has said- I highly doubt it)
and Ron and Hermione are ahead because
1) Ron actually likes her (thats 1/2 of whats needed for the ship as opposed to 0/2)
2) JKR's quotes.
Originally Posted by Hus
look ron fans will find anything to help there cause.

and throught out the whole series so far she hasent mention harry a few too many times.

lets look at it

#. vicky gets a bit angry frustrated when harmione does nothin but talk about harry

#. the papers are even writin stories about h/hr

#. even rons mum gets angry with harmione about harry

#. she is forever helping harry talking about him or doing something for him

rons gift was shippy but harmione thought nothing of it and ignored it compared to harrys gift she seemed over the moon with it


1) ok, I like Harry slightly more then Ron, yet I do like to defend Ron- its kinda funny how the only Ron Bashers I have seen support H/Hr- in which Ron is a huge threat too.(note I am not saying all Harmonians or any one in particular are active Ron bashers, but those Ron bashing comments do appear)

2) Yes the papers-written by Rita Skeeter. Rita Skeeter who will print countless lies to make the paper- not a good point for the Harmony. Think about it, the only true thing Rita wrote was in book 5, and she was blackmailed into it, and even then she wanted to write it from the angle that harry was delusional. Also with the articles about H/Hr, Hermione called them RUBBISH, and laughed saying that if that was the best she could do, then she was losing her touch. Not a good sign for harmony that hermione laughed at the idea of a H/Hr ship. Also when Harry was talking to Krum, he thought that Krum wanted to talk to him about something SERIOUS, yet was surprised to find out that Krum wanted to talk about the possible H/Hr ness (which harry said No too btw) so the fact that harry doesnt think that a ship with hermione is something serious (or worth going away from everyone else) is also not a good thing for harmony.
oops i forgot about the "vicky" thing- ok so 3) Viktor wasnt mad, and was satisfied with Harrys answer of No, he and hermione are just FRIENDS. It came from JKR's and Harry's own mouths (and Hermione laughed at the idea of a H/Hr ship)-so that isnt a good thing for harmony.
4) What in the world does Rons mom have to do with Hermione and Harry? She believed the rubbish (as hermione deemed it) that hermione and harry were dating, and then the followup article saying that hermione was twotiming harry, but what does Mrs.Weasley being mad about thinking Hermione made harry sad have to do with shipping?
5) oh, God-Forbid she should teach him a summoning charm. That must mean she likes him But seriously, yes hermione formed the DA- before you say- oh she did it for harry- she had the idea because SHE wanted to learn DADA, and thought Harry could teach because he is the only one who truly knows what it is like facing Voldemort. And I can see the whole got him outta his room thing coming on but 1) If she liked him she would have kept him in there. 2) Harry was trying unsuccessfully to ignore the gnawing hunger he had, 3) he was shocked to hear hermiones voice, so his hunger and shock got him out of that closet (and also she had to have met up with Ron and Ginny as A) she said that the others told her what happened at st. mungos, and b) the adults couldnt have been the others as they dont know that the kids overheard them.
and lastly- we dont know what is going on in hermiones head, even if I like the guy, its not against the law to hate his gift- but she did say something rather then ignore it.
And I dont know exactly what you mean by over the moon because all she said is "And I've been wanting the new theory of numerology for ages"
btw- harry just picked a book off the shelf- she could have bought herself a book, but atleast Ron tried to get her something that isnt so common (kinda like Dumbledore- he said people insist on giving him books, and hermione is probably the same way- she likes to read, and she is studious, but that doesnt mean she wouldnt enjoy something other then a book.)

They might, and Luna does show signs of a crush on Ron. But Ron doesn't have the same feelings. he thinks, and has said that Luna is weird. He won't act like that after what happened in the DoM, but it doesn't look like Red Moon will happen. Ron has shown feelings for Hermione and he will probably ask her, not Luna, to a date in Hogsmeade.

well I think towards the beginning of the book luna sorta acts like she could like ron, but towards the end she acts like she could like harry. Or Luna coul just be different and not like anyone. But I agree Ron wouldnt ask Luna out

let's look at the Heron ship. Are the Heron shippers Chocalates or Moonlights first, or Heron's first? Hermione and Ron are polar opposites. Ron seems to exemplify some of the characteristics which Hermione seems to dislike a lot, disrespect for teachers, a lack of much of a study habit...you get the picture. One thing that I can't get past is that In the Philosophers stone I saw Hermione become friends with Ron through Harry... Harry is constantly the middle ground between the bickering ron and Hermione...

I can't see Moonlight working because Luna and Harry are in different houses, Luna will never be as big as Hermione and Ron. I mean, I can see Harry visiting the Grangers, but I can't imagine him going to the Lovegoods for Christmas!

1) Hermione didnt become friends with Ron through Harry. Ron, Hermione and Harry all became friends at the same time.
As we all know, Flitwick put Ron and hermione to work as partners, ron got annoyed, said something mean about her, she locked herself in a bathroom stall and cried, quirrel let a troll in, ron and harry rescued her. *poof*magical moment: they are all friends
so Ron could be responsible because if he didnt say that thing to hermione she owuldnt have been crying so the troll could have smashed up an empty bathroom and ron AND harry could have continued to be annoyed at hermiones bossyness.
or it could be thanks to Quirrel that they are friends- afterall he let the troll in, w/o the troll hermione wouldnt have needed saving, therefore no magical bonding moment
or it coul;d be thanks to the troll that they are friends because if he didnt go into the bathroom he wouldnt have almost killed hermione until harry AND ron came to her rescue,
or thanks to flitwick for making them work together, for if they didnt work together, ron wouldnt have been annoyed at her, therefore not been mean and made her cry, therefore she wouldnt have locked herself in the bathroom so the troll would not have almost killed her and ron AND harry could have carryed on thinking she was a bossy know-it-all
or- it could be due to the bathroom that they are friends- as if it wasnt there, hermione may have gone to the dorm to cry, or somewhere else, yet the troll would still have been in that spot, and not tried to smash hermione to bits so she wouldnt have needed rescuing, so ron and harry wouldnt have rescued her and there would be no magical moment of instant friendship.
I can go on and on and on
also- without harrys help, Ron and Hermione always make-up with their fights. harry said once that he was tired of them having a go at each other but- even so-they always give it a rest by themselves.
but I dont think it matters who it is thanks to that the trio are friends
lets say Harry and Hermione HATED each other, and Ron made them become friends. I wouldnt say-- see Heron must happen because Ron made them friends. Or if Ron and Hermione could not stand each other and harry made them be friends- I dont see why that means Harry and Hermione have to be together? Perhaps because..it doesnt matter who is responsible for the trio becoming friends.

[Anakin Solo]

I have a question for the Herons. Why in your opinion does Hermione like Ron? You do consider there to be some proof, which I've already seen. But, what exactly does Hermione see in Ron?

[McBeth]

I have a question for the Herons. Why in your opinion does Hermione like Ron? You do consider there to be some proof, which I've already seen. But, what exactly does Hermione see in Ron?

All I need is Hermione having no trouble with providing Ron with the solution of asking her out in GoF to feel confident of Hermione's feelings for Ron.

In OotP, there was the kiss, pink cheeks when Ron mentioned Krum, etc., etc. :D

Allow me to ask you - what does Hermione see in Harry?

[FredFancier]

I have a question for the Herons. Why in your opinion does Hermione like Ron? You do consider there to be some proof, which I've already seen. But, what exactly does Hermione see in Ron?
I'm not hermione so I don't know what exactly her reasons are, but Im guessing because he is funny, he is amazingly loyal (both to hermione, harry and his family), he perseveres, he sticks up for her (which goes to loyalty), he makes her laugh, he is well rounded (sports, and school- we dont truly know his grades but he passes all his classes,(hence he is still in her year) and I imagine he does pretty well), he has a huge heart (you gotta admit, hes a sweetheart even though he may not have much money) etc
also- sometimes when you like and or love someone, you dont have reasons, you just like them, overlook their annoying qualities and go to bed thinking of their smile type thing.

[Anakin Solo]

All I need is Hermione having no trouble with providing Ron with the solution of asking her out in GoF to feel confident of Hermione's feelings for Ron.

In OotP, there was the kiss, pink cheeks when Ron mentioned Krum, etc., etc. :D

Allow me to ask you - what does Hermione see in Ron?

Ask me out first...I don't hold as much stock in that line as you do, sorry.

Point, but Hermione gave Harry a kiss too if I recall properly.

I think that Hermione sees a loyal friend, who is a bit of a goofus, who is not diligent enough, but is very funny and friendly!

[McBeth]

Ask me out first...I don't hold as much stock in that line as you do, sorry.

If she doesn't like him, why does she practically tell him to ask her out? :huh:

Point, but Hermione gave Harry a kiss too if I recall properly.

Not in OotP - if she did, it was important enough for Harry to mention it.

I think that Hermione sees a loyal friend, who is a bit of a goofus, who is not diligent enough, but is very funny and friendly!

Whoops, sorry, I meant to type "What do you think Hermione sees in Harry?" not "What do you think Hermione sees in Ron?" :blush:

[Anakin Solo]

I'm not hermione so I don't know what exactly her reasons are, but Im guessing because he is funny, he is amazingly loyal (both to hermione, harry and his family), he perseveres, he sticks up for her (which goes to loyalty), he makes her laugh, he is well rounded (sports, and school- we dont truly know his grades but he passes all his classes,(hence he is still in her year) and I imagine he does pretty well), he has a huge heart (you gotta admit, hes a sweetheart even though he may not have much money) etc
also- sometimes when you like and or love someone, you dont have reasons, you just like them, overlook their annoying qualities and go to bed thinking of their smile type thing.

I agree with your thought process completely, but I guess I just draw a different conclusion, you come out with Hermione crushing on Ron, I come out with just good friends...

If she doesn't like him, why does she practically tell him to ask her out? :huh:



Not in OotP - if she did, it was important enough for Harry to mention it.



Whoops, sorry, I meant to type "What do you think Hermione sees in Harry?" not "What do you think Hermione sees in Ron?" :blush:

I don't think she practically asked told him to ask her out, I think that she was mad at him for bugging her about Krum etc...

it's all good! :blush:
I think that Hermione sees someone more similar to herself than Ron is to Her. Harry is the hero, he befriends even the people who aren't cool, he's pretty good at his studies, very brave...you know!

[AsKPeeVes]

@FredFancier- I like your site overall its pretty good some of the reasons you ship heron are a bit ify but I love the thing with the curser that says Ron and Hermione true love..:) The biggest ship threat page was good..And I like a lot of the essays....

Umm i signed your guest book but it didnt let me finish what i was writing thats why i wrote it here...But I just posted another is that okay?

[Lady Greyjoy]

Why in your opinion does Hermione like Ron? You do consider there to be some proof, which I've already seen. But, what exactly does Hermione see in Ron?


Speaking for myself, Ron seems like a very funny and intresting guy. He is kind without being sacchrine sweet about it. Ron isn't a "yes-man", he is loyal and would die for his friends...but that doesn't mean he wouldn't give his opinion about things. Ron isn't afraid to tell the truth, even if his friends don't always want to hear it (S.P.E.W). Most of all though, life would never be boring with Ron, he cracks jokes that are both insightful and amusing. Ron doesn't take himself too seriously, and knows he's not perfect.

:)

Sounds like Hermione could see alot in Ron.

...and I've always been puzzled by the statement that Hermione will like Harry because he is more like her, he isn't more like her IMO, nor do people nessasarily go out with people that are like themselves.

[McBeth]

I don't think she practically asked told him to ask her out, I think that she was mad at him for bugging her about Krum etc...

Then she should have told him he had no business poking into her love life, not supplied Ron with a solution which you think she wouldn't want to come true.

it's all good! :blush:

Urgh, my typing is really off tonight. I meant to write "It was not important enough for Harry to mention." Hermione did not kiss Harry in OotP.

I think that Hermione sees someone more similar to herself than Ron is to Her. Harry is the hero, he befriends even the people who aren't cool, he's pretty good at his studies, very brave...you know!

Harry is similar to Hermione? I've never heard that one before.

Harry gets the same grades Ron does with the exception to DADA.

Ron's very brave, and he befriends people who aren't "cool" as well. I really don't see the difference between the two, except for that fact that Harry's a hero, and I should think that doesn't matter to Hermione.

Also, since Ron isn't like Hermione in many ways, have you ever heard of the saying that Opposites Attract?


Edit: AsKPeeVes has come back to the Love Thread! Rejoice! :clap:

[The Leprechaun]

I hopw you just forgot the [/sarcasm] tags.

Nope, but that is what you are saying by characterizing JKR's responses as conniving. This was a serious question. Check the dictionary, to connive is to do illegal actions in a manipulative or dishonest way. By the way, I don't see how that was rude, I'm not the one calling JKR conniving and saying that all us Herons are being duped by the fact that we think JKR is an honest person.

[Anakin Solo]

Speaking for myself, Ron seems like a very funny and intresting guy. He is kind without being sacchrine sweet about it. Ron isn't a "yes-man", he is loyal and would die for his friends...but that doesn't mean he wouldn't give his opinion about things. Ron isn't afraid to tell the truth, even if his friends don't always want to hear it (S.P.E.W). Most of all though, life would never be boring with Ron, he cracks jokes that are both insightful and amusing. Ron doesn't take himself too seriously, and knows he's not perfect.

:)

Sounds like Hermione could see alot in Ron.


I do not think that the goofy, cheerful ron-type guy is who Hermione would like.

[Corbin Dallas]

Nope, but that is what you are saying by characterizing JKR's responses as conniving. This was a serious question. Check the dictionary, to connive is to do illegal actions in a manipulative or dishonest way. By the way, I don't see how that was rude, I'm not the one calling JKR conniving and saying that all us Herons are being duped by the fact that we think JKR is an honest person.
Cheers The Leprechaun :tu:
CD

[Anakin Solo]

Then she should have told him he had no business poking into her love life, not supplied Ron with a solution which you think she wouldn't want to come true.



Urgh, my typing is really off tonight. I meant to write "It was not important enough for Harry to mention." Hermione did not kiss Harry in OotP.



Harry is similar to Hermione? I've never heard that one before.

Harry gets the same grades Ron does with the exception to DADA.

Ron's very brave, and he befriends people who aren't "cool" as well. I really don't see the difference between the two, except for that fact that Harry's a hero, and I should think that doesn't matter to Hermione.

Also, since Ron isn't like Hermione in many ways, have you ever heard of the saying that Opposites Attract?


Edit: AsKPeeVes has come back to the Love Thread! Rejoice! :clap:


Harry is more similar to Hermione then Ron is, yes.

DADA, and in Potions it is often pointed out that, Harry's isn't perfect like Hermoione's, but at least it looked better than Ron's etc...
And in transfiguration, Harry seems to do slightly better, same in Charms.

Harry is more serious than Ron is. And IMO Hermione is attracted to someone serious.

[Jadecmn]

I do not think that the goofy, cheerful ron-type guy is who Hermione would like.


Maybe not, but the loyal friend who is willing to sacrifice himself for you, and plus Ron is very protective of Hermione, even more so than Harry, as a girl I would find that very attractive.

[FredFancier]

@FredFancier- I like your site overall its pretty good some of the reasons you ship heron are a bit ify but I love the thing with the curser that says Ron and Hermione true love.. The biggest ship threat page was good..And I like a lot of the essays....

Umm i signed your guest book but it didnt let me finish what i was writing thats why i wrote it her...
thanks...i personally think my site sux, (i did the why r/hr page in less then 3 minutes) i'll get around to adding more and fixing it...when I have time
lol (i hope I made it clear on the threat page that I respect H/Hr-ers, I just disagree with them

(same goes for here, I respect yall and your ideas Harmonians, but I dont agree with them(

Then she should have told him he had no business poking into her love life, not supplied Ron with a solution which you think she wouldn't want to come true. :clap:

[McBeth]

Harry is more similar to Hermione then Ron is, yes.

In your opinion. I don't think he's much like her at all.

DADA, and in Potions it is often pointed out that, Harry's isn't perfect like Hermoione's, but at least it looked better than Ron's etc...
And in transfiguration, Harry seems to do slightly better, same in Charms.

Whether Harry is better at magic than Ron or not, what does this matter in a relationship? Hermione could get together with a squib or muggle for all you know.

Harry is more serious than Ron is. And IMO Hermione is attracted to someone serious.

And Hermione needs to lighten up a bit. Do you think she's very happy being so serious?

[Jadecmn]

Harry is more serious than Ron is. And IMO Hermione is attracted to someone serious.


I think that Ron can be serious, when the situation calls for it.

[mrs_bombadil]

Maybe not, but the loyal friend who is willing to sacrifice himself for you, and plus Ron is very protective of Hermione, even more so than Harry, as a girl I would find that very attractive.

I think a guy who will protect you and challenge you and make you laugh is a prize.

[The Leprechaun]

No, she will sweep him away with her caring character.

Ron, will sweep Hermione off her feet by asking her out first and Harry will realize Ginny and sweep her off her feet (or maybe Luna). ;)

[Jadecmn]

That's exactly what I meant Mrs. Bombadil.

I read the links you posted earlier and even though at first I was wishy-washy between Luna and Ginny, I think you've got me convinced that Ginny would be the best pairing for Harry.

[McBeth]

I think a guy who will protect you and challenge you and make you laugh is a prize.

Agreed 100%. Heck with the Wizarding World regarding you as a hero and being serious 24/7, for all I care! :clap:

[The Leprechaun]

No, you're right, bickering and insulting are so much better. There are still two books to go, anything can happen. H/G, H/Hr, R/Hr, whatever. And doesn't Ron still need to "realize" that he is in love with Hermione? Or so some Herons claim...

Besides, does Harry see Ginny as a "girl"? Or isn't she still Ron's little sister for him? You cannot argue against H/Hr with "Harry does not see her in a romantical light" when the same applies to H/G.

I hope Ron realizes it by now, I mean it sure seems like it.

[mrs_bombadil]

That's exactly what I meant Mrs. Bombadil.

I read the links you posted earlier and even though at first I was wishy-washy between Luna and Ginny, I think you've got me convinced that Ginny would be the best pairing for Harry.

:clap:

I'm glad you find it persuasive!

[AsKPeeVes]

I do not think that the goofy, cheerful ron-type guy is who Hermione would like.
Well then what kind of guy do you think Hermione likes? No one likes some one whos excatly like them it would get boring Thats why opposits truly attract...Ron can be serious at times and he must be some what smart to be passing his classes...

Originally Posted by Anakin Solo
Harry is more serious than Ron is. And IMO Hermione is attracted to someone serious.
I dont know how to word this but just try and stay with me..
At what times is he serious about somthing that Ron wouldnt be ? When stressfull things and heartbreak come to him of course hes not going to be skipping around and joking hes not serious about things like homework as Hermione is (who serious almost all the time). Its like when Ron thought his Dad was going to die and all the other times hes gone with Harry on his other little missions hes(as in ron)has been serious....

That probaly made no sence but it did to me...:p I'll think of a way to word it better McBeth go to SSMC and help me word it will you? ..:p

[Jadecmn]

ASkPeeves, great Signature, I love that movie!

[Lady Greyjoy]

It made sense to me Peeves. :)

Ron is serious when the situation calls for it. He wasn't cracking any jokes about his father's near death experience, nor does he make fun of Sirus's death.

Ron just doesn't sweat the small stuff.

[Into the Fire]

Ron just doesn't sweat the small stuff.

and Hermione has been known to. That is one way they balance each other out.

Of course this is subjective. What is 'small' to one person and a 'big' thing to another can be different. Ron might not sweat a peice of Homework that got nine out of ten but he certainly will stress over disappearing leprachaun gold. It alls comes from your own insecurities, so I'm not sure how far this argument goes.

They both have a fear of failing and not living up to expectations but they each get more stressed about different areas. Ron may not like the fact that his grades are not as good as his brother's but he doesn't show this as much on the outside. His outward insecurity (though he is embarrassed at displaying this) is over being poor and his outward ambission of late has been quidditch and an interesting thing is that he seems to be trying, at least in some part, to impress Hermione with this.

Hermione on the other hand stresses outwardly often. She is a worrier. She worries about Harry much of the time, she worries about Ron, but most outwardly she worries about school work. Her inner inherent insecurity is a great fear of failure which is displayed by the boggart. She also seems to have archtypical "teen girl" insecurities that she does not display often, but these are expressed in books four and five.

Pardon the rambling, this is an interesting subject. :blush:

[Krumpet]

Ah I'm sorry I missed the Moonlight/Chocolate debate. Just like to add that if Luna is a young female version of Dumbledore then I think she isn't really going to be a LI for anybody. DD is a mentor and a guide. If Luna is meant to be a guide then I don't think she's meant to be LI. Just my thoughts though, and as a Chocolate I see Luna as much more of a threat then Hermione.

But for my very quick pop in of the night I thought I'd take a stab at this…

I have a question for the Herons. Why in your opinion does Hermione like Ron? You do consider there to be some proof, which I've already seen. But, what exactly does Hermione see in Ron?

She sees someone that is kind, funny, smart, loyal, and proud. Not to mention a brave. Perhaps she also sees someone that will protect her. It is obvious that Hermione feels protective of Harry, but I think she feels more protected by Ron. At lest that's what her Patronus makes me think.

My reasons behind this. Judging from Harry's Patronus (his is a symbol of his father), I think the Patronus takes the shape of thing you associate with protection to yourself. And what does Hermione associate with something that is going to protect her??? A member of the Weasel family. ;)

[JordanL]

Yeah, she'll sweep him away with her good judgment.

I love watching this. Harmonians think that Herons are naive, and Herons think that Harmonians are blind. It's kind of like watching a superbowl where the loser goes crying to their mommy, and the team with most steroids doesn't win. :eyebrows:

She's not in all of his classes now and will be in even fewer next year after OWL results.

Actually, I think that this will be a bigger problem for poor Ron.

[The Leprechaun]

I love watching this. Harmonians think that Herons are naive, and Herons think that Harmonians are blind. It's kind of like watching a superbowl where the loser goes crying to their mommy, and the team with most steroids doesn't win. :eyebrows:

:rotfl:

[shohra]

Guys you move so fast i was trying to catch up with you for three days.
About the hero thing , some one said that sidekicks don't give orders ,well Ron gave a whole bunsh of them in the chess game in SS/PS including ordering harry.
As for bravery I always thought that Ron was the bravest among the trio, He might not have the saving poeple thing but you don't get the feeling that he would refuse any type of adventure as long as it doesn't include spiders

[Corbin Dallas]

Guys you move so fast i was trying to catch up with you for three days.
About the hero thing , some one said that sidekicks don't give orders ,well Ron gave a whole bunsh of them in the chess game in SS/PS including ordering harry.
As for bravery I always thought that Ron was the bravest among the trio, He might not have the saving poeple thing but you don't get the feeling that he would refuse any type of adventure as long as it doesn't include spiders
Hold on now, Ron did go an adventure that did include Spiders, big Giant, harry, eight eyed eight legged Spiders, seems he doesn't back down from his worst fear...
CD

[JordanL]

As for bravery I always thought that Ron was the bravest among the trio, He might not have the saving poeple thing but you don't get the feeling that he would refuse any type of adventure as long as it doesn't include spiders

I really do like Ron, but I think that he's second to Harry in the bravery department. Harry directly confronts his fears, uses Voldemorts name, has no problem facing him or his death eaters, which are all things Ron only does when forced. He's brave, but he doesn't let his bravery blind him, which is one of Harry's greatest vices... and virtues.

[Sienna]

Angua:
I will have to address this in a separate post. Obviously, the R-Hr R/Hr subplot has already contributed to and affected Harry's hero journey and the fight against Voldemort greatly in the five books we have so far. The simplest assumption to make would be that it will continue to do so similarly in the future.’

Thanks for this Angua. I will get back to you with my reciprocal outline as soon as I can. Although it may take a couple of days as work is taking precedence at the moment.

I am no student of Jung, but what I know of the Jungian anima concept has nothing in common with Hermione in the HP books except femaleness. Jung's anima is something a male first glimpses in his dreams or deep in his unconscious, a mysterious alluring unobtainable female figure. This figure represents the female side of himself that he has lost (atrophied/repressed/whatever) as he grew up as a male. He unconsciously seeks his lost female self and attempts to project it upon real females in his world, always looking for the "right" one.

This is certainly one form of the anima image, but by no means its definitive form. In fact, your definition is a very narrow view of the anima archetype as she is described in Jung’s theories and the theories of the Jungians that came after him.

In the early stages of development, a man’s anima can take many forms and she can indeed be ‘elusive’ and the longed-for ideal of his inner woman. However, the anima in narrative is far more than this. You compare Hermione to Ariadne. In the Theseus myth, Ariadne is Theseus’s anima (and they also symbolically integrate when Theseus takes her with him after leaving Crete … although later on he acts like a right … ;)).

The anima cannot only be an exalting force but also a destructive one. The point is, at her most positive she provides a road-map for the hero – she directs him in his quest – she opens the doors for him to go through.

My assertion wasn’t that no other character incorporated the anima archetype in the series – my point is that as the narrative evolves, the anima archetype has become more and more focused in the character of Hermione. Cho is also a representation of the anima image – in her longed-for form; Lily – in her maternal form; even McGonnagal at times has taken on this role. However, in her most positive expression, the anima is represented by Hermione and it is this character with whom the hero must integrate in order to be ready to face the archetypal shadow (Voldemort). The fact that Hermione is the only one of Harry’s peers to vocalise the name Voldemort in OotP further solidifies this trend. The fact that she appears in Harry’s DA dream (where the anima in her early form – Cho – transforms into the anima in her final form – Hermione) also supports this.

I have read lots of Jung and lots about Jung . Hermione most definitively embodies the anima (as she is defined by Jung and many Jungian analysts). In fact, she is the final form of the anima – Sophia… Wisdom… (as you said, Athena).

GrangerGal:
As for reading Harry Potter and comparing it to Jung, we need to know if JKR has studied Jung in order to decide if she would even use this in her writing.

JKR has read mythology (and used it extensively) and Jung’s archetypes are the archetypes found in mythology. Earlier someone said they’d disagreed with Jung because his theories are exclusively heteronormative. I agree… they are. But that is because the mythology of the world is mostly heteronormative. It is pretty much irrelevant whether or not JKR has read Jung. JKR has used classical storytelling structures and classical mythological images – the wise old man, the shadow, the anima - these archetypes exist within Harry Potter because they exist in the mythology of the world. Whether she wrote them consciously as such or unconsciously by following classical mythological story structures is irrelevant.


Sienna

[delemtri]

I love watching this. Harmonians think that Herons are naive, and Herons think that Harmonians are blind. It's kind of like watching a superbowl where the loser goes crying to their mommy, and the team with most steroids doesn't win. :eyebrows:

And you rise above it by managing to insult *everybody.* Great jorb!

Sienna, I noticed you never replied to my last post in our former conversation. Would you like me to try a bit harder to explain my view of the Potterverse (and, by extension, my view on the power of aesthetic creation to lead to entirely new, temporary worlds)?

[Jadecmn]

The point is, at her most positive she provides a road-map for the hero – she directs him in his quest – she opens the doors for him to go through.


I'm neither supporting nor disputing, but this reminds me of in PS/SS when Hermione using her logic is able to find the right potion that will enable Harry to go through the fire/door and into the room where the mirror is. (And then goes back to Ronnie!)

[Claudia]

I have a question for the Herons. Why in your opinion does Hermione like Ron? You do consider there to be some proof, which I've already seen. But, what exactly does Hermione see in Ron?Mostly I agree with the other Herons so far--Ron embodies loyalty, has demonstrated a good deal of courage (and we know that Hermione considers bravery an attractive trait), and is able to make Hermione laugh and enjoy herself (we are treated to snippets of Ron and Hermione having fun together during the series, as well as some of Ron and Harry having fun together, but very rarely do we see Harry and Hermione having fun together on their own--I'm being generous with the 'rarely,' as I can't actually remember any instances, but perhaps I've just forgotten).

But really? I still think that Hermione pays just a little too much attention to Ron on that very first train ride to Hogwarts way back in Book 1. She knows nothing about Ron's sterling qualities at that point. In fact, she knows a great deal more about Harry, seeing as how he was mentioned in her books. So that in mind, I think it's gotta be looks. ;)

[JordanL]

And you rise above it by managing to insult *everybody.* Great jorb!

Hey, someones gotta do it! :evil:

Honestly*, I don't go around insulting everyone, but everyone has to be able to reason through the things which I have discrepencies with.

*Patented Hermione tone.

So that in mind, I think it's gotta be looks. ;)

Oh, why can't I find a girl that likes the tall, lanky, clumsy, suprised look? :upset:

[Angua9]

This is certainly one form of the anima image, but by no means its definitive form. In fact, your definition is a very narrow view of the anima archetype as she is described in Jung’s theories and the theories of the Jungians that came after him.
Again, I have only the most casual knowledge of Jung's writing, but this is the form of the anima image which I have always seen referred to in descriptions of the psychology of erotic love and, eventually, marriage.

In the early stages of development, a man’s anima can take many forms and she can indeed be ‘elusive’ and the longed-for ideal of his inner woman. However, the anima in narrative is far more than this. You compare Hermione to Ariadne. In the Theseus myth, Ariadne is Theseus’s anima (and they also symbolically integrate when Theseus takes her with him after leaving Crete … although later on he acts like a right … ;)).

The anima cannot only be an exalting force but also a destructive one. The point is, at her most positive she provides a road-map for the hero – she directs him in his quest – she opens the doors for him to go through.

My assertion wasn’t that no other character incorporated the anima archetype in the series – my point is that as the narrative evolves, the anima archetype has become more and more focused in the character of Hermione. Cho is also a representation of the anima image – in her longed-for form; Lily – in her maternal form; even McGonnagal at times has taken on this role. However, in her most positive expression, the anima is represented by Hermione and it is this character with whom the hero must integrate in order to be ready to face the archetypal shadow (Voldemort). The fact that Hermione is the only one of Harry’s peers to vocalise the name Voldemort in OotP further solidifies this trend. The fact that she appears in Harry’s DA dream (where the anima in her early form – Cho – transforms into the anima in her final form – Hermione) also supports this.
It seems to me that once you broaden your consideration of the anima figure to this extent, you have lost any suggestion of, or need for, integration by sexual pairing with the anima figure. "The anima" becomes Everyfemale, and some aspect of her is reflected in -- literally -- every female that the hero encounters.

Lily, Cho, Hermione, McGonagall, sure, and more...

We can easily argue that Luna is Harry's anima, the Beatrice figure who will (I suspect) be his guide for his "Harrowing of Hell" experience beyond the veil. We can make an excellent case for Ginny as anima, as Harry followed her into the underworld and battled the Shadow for her soul. Bellatrix Lestrange is an archtypal Dark Lady "temptress" who lures Harry on to an encounter with Voldemort. Moaning Myrtle is literally Harry's guide and portal-opener twice -- for his Return to the Womb trip to the Chamber of Secrets and through the underwater labyrinth of the Second Task. Hedwig is the winged symbol of Harry's soul.

You say that the anima archetype "has become more and more focused" on Hermione and that "in her most positive expression, the anima is represented by Hermione." It seems to me that what that really means is "Hermione is the girl Harry knows best" and "Hermione is the girl who helps Harry the most." If every female is Harry's anima, you can call the one with the biggest role in his life the main anima.

But, in mythology as in life, we don't fall in love with the member of the opposite sex whom we know best or who comes in the handiest. Rather, we fall in love with a member of the opposite sex who is elusive and hard to win. Odysseus sought Penelope, not Athena. Perseus's desire was for Andromeda, not Athena or the Graeae. We could tell that Theseus would play "love 'em and leave 'em" with Ariadne, because she was not the object of his quest at the center of the Labyrinth, but a helper at the beginning of it.

The anima can manifest in every feminine aspect from mother to teacher to monster to crone, but to identify Harry's eventual love interest, we need to find one particular form -- his erotic anima. She should be elusive and mysterious, one who leads him like a bird through the forest or a scarce-glimpsed will o' wisp, not one who gives him a good solid grounding in Summoning Spells and sends him on his way with a good-luck pat on the back. Far from becoming "more and more focused" on Hermione, Harry's anima role is multiplying and splitting as he forms connections with more females exemplifying more aspects of the feminine and unconsciously seeks his still-hidden "other soul."

I have read lots of Jung and lots about Jung . Hermione most definitively embodies the anima (as she is defined by Jung and many Jungian analysts). In fact, she is the final form of the anima – Sophia… Wisdom… (as you said, Athena).
But Athena is the stern virgin goddess and one does not seek sexual union with her. According to Joseph Campbell, these female helper figures are avatars of the Nurturing Mother -- one who helps the hero at the threshold of his quest. Generally, she arms him with knowledge and protective amulets, and send him along without her, just as our mothers taught us, tied our shoes, and sent us off to school.

She is NOT the same female whom he encounters and wins at his final test -- the beautiful maiden who personifies the victory of life over death. The only female in the story so far who has fit that pattern has been Ginny Weasley, the sleeping maiden brought triumphantly back from captivity and death (and maybe -- a bit -- Gabrielle Delacour). The hero doesn't marry the Hermes figure, and Hermione's guidance of Harry is no more a romantic signifier than Fred and George giving him the Marauder's Map or Dumbledore giving him his Invisibility Cloak. She is a helper, not a grail.

[The Leprechaun]

Hey, someones gotta do it! :evil:

Honestly*, I don't go around insulting everyone, but everyone has to be able to reason through the things which I have discrepencies with.

*Patented Hermione tone.

So, what about our expectations? Must we rise oursleves to "your level", and not get the same in return? I don't get this statement, it seems to say that we must argue our side by your standards. Please, correct me if I am wrong. Because, there are a lot of things that I could ask you about and expect for you to use my judgement. Would I do this? No. Every theory has one or two holes, at least, but some theories have way too many holes (by the way this isn't ship specific). Every piece of information has different ways of looking at it (as a spectator, like us), but some show a huge amount of doubtable information in their reasoning (again not ship specific).

Can I explain what I think Heron would do for the plot? No, because I am unsure of it even having a major part to play in the bigger picture, but I think it will do something. Can I explain when I think Ron and Hermione began to really fall in love with each other? Not really, but I do believe that Ron and Hermione did really start to get interested in each other sometime in the middle of Ootp. Do I have any real clue who Harry is going to end up getting kissed by? No, but at the end of OotP I see a lot of Harry/Ginny and Harry/Luna clues.

[JordanL]

Must we rise oursleves to "your level", and not get the same in return? I don't get this statement, it seems to say that we must argue our side by your standards.

Well now you're making me sound like an arrogant prat.

No, I don't think you could rise to my level because its not as if my level is above anyone elses. I just have a different point of view.

Because, there are a lot of things that I could ask you about and expect for you to use my judgement. Would I do this? No. Every thoery has one or two holes, at least, but some theories have way too many holes (by the way this isn't ship specific). Every piece of information has different ways of looking at it (as a spectator, like us), but some show a huge amount of questionability (again not ship specific).

I completely agree, but what I was saying is that there are certain holes that I find unreconcilable, with both H/Hr and R/Hr, and that the thing I am searching for in this particular arguement is someone who can address those particular holes effectively.

I don't expect you to use my judgement, but you never convince or sway another person by explaining what you think is the most important: you do that by finding out what they think is most important and explaining why, from that perspective, the *insert position here* makes sense. It's part of constructing a convincing arguement.

What I was saying is that explaining the same thing the same way when I ask two different questions, or when I explain why I don't accept one particular explaination, is not a method of debating. It's a method of yammering.

I do this to, but I expect myself to stop if it's pointed out to me, and in a good discussion, others will do the same.

No, but at the end of OotP I see a lot of Harry/Ginny and Harry/Luna clues.

Could you expand on this perchance? I walked through the last couple of chapters a little while ago, and found a single conversation where Harry didn't think Luna was completely nutters. And I'm not remembering any "hints" for Ginny either....

[shohra]

Hold on now, Ron did go an adventure that did include Spiders, big Giant, harry, eight eyed eight legged Spiders, seems he doesn't back down from his worst fear...
CD
Sorry that came out rong.
I meant jump at the chance to go on a new adventure

Again, I have only the most casual knowledge of Jung's writing, but this is the form of the anima image which I have always seen referred to in descriptions of the psychology of erotic love and, eventually, marriage.


It seems to me that once you broaden your consideration of the anima figure to this extent, you have lost any suggestion of, or need for, integration by sexual pairing with the anima figure. "The anima" becomes Everyfemale, and some aspect of her is reflected in -- literally -- every female that the hero encounters.

Lily, Cho, Hermione, McGonagall, sure, and more...

We can easily argue that Luna is Harry's anima, the Beatrice figure who will (I suspect) be his guide for his "Harrowing of Hell" experience beyond the veil. We can make an excellent case for Ginny as anima, as Harry followed her into the underworld and battled the Shadow for her soul. Bellatrix Lestrange is an archtypal Dark Lady "temptress" who lures Harry on to an encounter with Voldemort. Moaning Myrtle is literally Harry's guide and portal-opener twice -- for his Return to the Womb trip to the Chamber of Secrets and through the underwater labyrinth of the Second Task. Hedwig is the winged symbol of Harry's soul.

You say that the anima archetype "has become more and more focused" on Hermione and that "in her most positive expression, the anima is represented by Hermione." It seems to me that what that really means is "Hermione is the girl Harry knows best" and "Hermione is the girl who helps Harry the most." If every female is Harry's anima, you can call the one with the biggest role in his life the main anima.

But, in mythology as in life, we don't fall in love with the member of the opposite sex whom we know best or who comes in the handiest. Rather, we fall in love with a member of the opposite sex who is elusive and hard to win. Odysseus sought Penelope, not Athena. Perseus's desire was for Andromeda, not Athena or the Graeae. We could tell that Theseus would play "love 'em and leave 'em" with Ariadne, because she was not the object of his quest at the center of the Labyrinth, but a helper at the beginning of it.

The anima can manifest in every feminine aspect from mother to teacher to monster to crone, but to identify Harry's eventual love interest, we need to find one particular form -- his erotic anima. She should be elusive and mysterious, one who leads him like a bird through the forest or a scarce-glimpsed will o' wisp, not one who gives him a good solid grounding in Summoning Spells and sends him on his way with a good-luck pat on the back. Far from becoming "more and more focused" on Hermione, Harry's anima role is multiplying and splitting as he forms connections with more females exemplifying more aspects of the feminine and unconsciously seeks his still-hidden "other soul."


But Athena is the stern virgin goddess and one does not seek sexual union with her. According to Joseph Campbell, these female helper figures are avatars of the Nurturing Mother -- one who helps the hero at the threshold of his quest. Generally, she arms him with knowledge and protective amulets, and send him along without her, just as our mothers taught us, tied our shoes, and sent us off to school.

She is NOT the same female whom he encounters and wins at his final test -- the beautiful maiden who personifies the victory of life over death. The only female in the story so far who has fit that pattern has been Ginny Weasley, the sleeping maiden brought triumphantly back from captivity and death (and maybe -- a bit -- Gabrielle Delacour). The hero doesn't marry the Hermes figure, and Hermione's guidance of Harry is no more a romantic signifier than Fred and George giving him the Marauder's Map or Dumbledore giving him his Invisibility Cloak. She is a helper, not a grail.


This is one of the best answers I have ever read and beleave me I have read a lot of good ones

[PrettyVeela]

This is one of the best answers I have ever read and beleave me I have read a lot of good ones

And on that note

HAPPY BIRTHDAY ANGUA9! :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

I've never heard of Jung(or maybe I have and didn't know it) but this is the first time I've seen it in the R/Hr and H/Hr shipping debate.

[GilyAnn]

You know this post took me ages to make :wow: too many things going on.
McBeth first lovely essay I enjoy it a lot and I'll try to be as gentle as I can when I comment on it.

Okay, we know how excited and hopeful Harry was when he thought he might be able to see or speak to Sirius again. Since being hopeful or excited wasn't mentioned as far as Harry was feeling during or after the conversation, I am not inclined to believe that Luna was making things worse or baiting Harry into thinking he would see his godfather again.

The thing is that Harry is hoping against hope to believe that Sirius can come back, that he can see him again. Is not that Luna bates him with the posibility is that neither Harry or Luna is moving on. They are both stuck on the same hope that doesn't help them moved on.


I don't think Harry wanted to see Luna, because she was a person, of which speci Harry had been avoiding like you avoid the plague, unless you were Sirius Black. But Harry's image of who she was as a person changed as their conversation took place.

I agree Harry is not in the mood to talk to people but it's rather clear in the book what Harry thinks of Luna. He often ignores her and calls her names, he believes that she thinks of weird stuff. But more to the point is that it's only after he notices that it's Luna that he thinks of hiding only to see that there were no good places and he didn't had the energy to do try.

Some people think that this pity is exactly what doesn't make this relationship work, because you can't base a relationship off that emotion. I agree with that. But for the first time since Sirius's death, Harry thinks of something and someone other than himself and his sorrows, and thanks to Luna, who he should be grateful. This is the first step of Harry realizing that Luna's more than what everyone says she is.

Also, for those of you who don't think Luna was ever serene in anyway, it's right up there for you to clap eyes on. She's said things serenely on other occasions as well.


Ok this is my problem with the pity thing. The fact that Harry feels pity for her I consider it a bad thing on a term of romance subplots. Pity is not a good quality to have the love interest introduced with. Love interest have early introductions their first meetings are importants and they are often described with colorful adjectives, among many other traits. I'm not going to quote an entire essay that I have about romantic guidelines but if you wish to read it it's found here. (http://www.hgforever.com/HGessays/romancerules.php)

I know that a few people consider these things are trivials and Cliché but those things are still being used in terms of romance and this is after all literature not real life. What fails in the H/L thing to my understanding is that first Luna isn't introduced in a positive way, she doesn't even follow a funny pattern. She also is consistenly descrived with adjectives such as dotiness, Mad, etc. Please be aware that I'm not bashing Luna, this are things that are written on the book and on Harry's perspective. I think she is awesome and because she is dotty like that she brings more into the mix. That's what I love about her, I would completly hate to have that change. But Harry's perspective of Luna is not introduced to us in a positive light and because she has come into the story so late it's hard to have Harry over the curse of the next books changed that when we know that he is going to busy with Rustyvoldy.

This is speculation to an extent, but I believe the reason why Harry's feeling of pity intensified was because he himself had called Luna "Loony," as well as his friends, and he regretted it.

I actually believed that Harry just feels sorry because just as in the case of the memory of Snape. Harry knows how it feels to be taunted and teased. He have that plenty of experience with bird brain Dudley. Harry can easily understand how it feels to be teased.

One of the things that stands out to me very much in this bit of the conversation, is that Luna sort of "supplies Harry with his feelings." Not that she told him what they were, but she knew, because she's an intuitive girl, and she knew what was bothering him, and that he didn't want it fished out of him, only to have her burst into tears or something. She didn't pry, trying to get him to talk about it, because she knows what it feels like. Luna was the only one he didn't mind talking about Sirius - not Hermione, Ginny, Ron, Hagrid, not even Dumbledore could get Harry to open up a bit. Harry had been in the process of building a barrier around himself, and only Luna could climb over to reach him.

Ok I have several comments on this so bear with me. I don't think that Luna supplies Harry with his feelings. I think that just like Harry in the case of Snape's memory and Luna's teasing, she can identify with Harry and now how he feels because she simply has gone thru that before. I wouldn't consider this a romantic foreshadowing. Another thing is that Harry had trouble speaking with R/Hr about Sirius but it's understandable given the circunstances. But all of the other people are simply not available to Harry. Harry refuses to speak to Dumbledore because he is the reason why Sirius is dead. Hagrid did the unthinkable and actually reminded him of Sirius, talking about him and how he had been hidden in the caves, that was just a Doh! moment on Hagrid. The mistake that R/Hr/Ha do is that they walk on eggshells around Harry. That's not the case with Luna and it's because she knows what he's going thru because she has gone thru that too.


Here Harry learns that at least one of his friends, though new-found, has lost a parent. And that she's still moving on in life, still managing to be happy, still finding the will to live.

I agree Luna is still surviving but to what extent? My question comes becomes Luna is holding on against hope that she will talk to her mother again. That's one of my biggest problems with the 'moving on' that she's doing, it sounds to me as if Luna is execting that and it's unrealistic and she's stuck in that time frame. This is what of the many reasons why I expect that Luna's destiny be tied up with her parent's.


Some people think that Luna is making things worse for Harry by giving him hope of seeing Sirius again. But, as I said above, I don't believe this since we were given no "Harry felt more hopeful, and excited, because now he knew there was a chance to see Sirius again."

I believe the purpose of Luna telling that was finishing what Dumbledore said earlier, "Death is Life's Next Great Adventure." Did Harry believe it? I don't recall so (correct me if I'm wrong.)

Then Luna gave him something he could reach out and touch. Something that could prove to him that death was another adventure, something that could show him that if he was patient, he would see Sirius again, in his next adventure, and that it would be foolish to waste the adventure he was already on. I believe that this, my friends, played big part in the "lessening of the burden."

And, as a side note, I thought it curious that instead of using impossible, or ridiculous, as Harry might have previously to going to the DoM, Jo used "extraordinary" to call Luna's beliefs. That can't be bad, because Luna herself just said her own mother was extraordinary.

To be quite honest it was about time that the trio and others stop calling Luna's beliefs names. I *really* wish that the spirits of fire or whatever is called could be seen, so that Luna could prove to Hermione that she was right. But that's not the point. I agree Harry stops calling Luna's beliefs weird names and it's good but we must consider that at that moment he's feeling sorry for Luna and his perception of her believing weird stuff hasn't changed for him. He still is firm on his beliefs that Luna believes in weird stuff. I will give you something because I have no problem admitting it, for Luna it was easier to talk to Harry about Sirius and death because she had seen it and lived thru the experience of loosing someone dear before. But in no way do I see that as a romantic foreshadowing. The way I see it R/Hr are no longer enough to help Harry, JKR is forced in book 5, because they are growing up, to bring new people into Harry's circle because Harry can no longer depend on his sidekicks like he used too. Don't get me wrong R/Hr are still and will remain his best friends but Harry did a lot of growing up in book 5 and I always knew that JKR was going to start separating them at some point. Harry needed to broaden his circle and I'm glad that people like Neville, Luna and Ginny are the first to come in it.

Notice the emphasis put on the "It always comes back in the end" bit. I think, aside from assuring Harry that he needn't worry about her possessions being returned, that she was also trying to tell him in a subtle way that would probably only work with the way he was feeling, that his happiness and related emotions would indeed come back, for it always does sometime, and to not lose hope in that respect.

I think this is what Harry was "mesmerized" about. We all know he's a relatively smart boy, and he was probably already puzzled by the emphasis on Luna telling him "it would all come back in the end." His "yeah. . . yeah, you too," sounded very, very thoughtful to me.

And if Luna is so "loony," you'd of thought Harry wouldn't have wanted to be with her for an extended time, but he offered twice to help her look for her things.

Eghhhh! I'm going to refrain from commeting on the "It always comes back in the end" thing. It's one of the things that rubs me the wrong way with Luna. Sorry :sad: I can comment on one last thing that Harry is offering to help Luna because he knows how it feels the teasing and someone making fun of you. I don't believe it is because any other reason, Harry has had enough experience with that living with bird brain Dudley.

Gily Ann

ETA: :birthday: Angua9

[FlyingPhoenix]

CARL JUNG


1875 - 1961


Dr. C. George Boeree


Anyone who wants to know the human psyche will learn next to nothing from experimental psychology. He would be better advised to abandon exact science, put away his scholar's gown, bid farewell to his study, and wander with human heart throught the world. There in the horrors of prisons, lunatic asylums and hospitals, in drab suburban pubs, in brothels and gambling-hells, in the salons of the elegant, the Stock Exchanges, socialist meetings, churches, revivalist gatherings and ecstatic sects, through love and hate, through the experience of passion in every form in his own body, he would reap richer stores of knowledge than text-books a foot thick could give him, and he will know how to doctor the sick with a real knowledge of the human soul. -- Carl Jung

Freud said that the goal of therapy was to make the unconscious conscious. He certainly made that the goal of his work as a theorist. And yet he makes the unconscious sound very unpleasant, to say the least: It is a cauldron of seething desires, a bottomless pit of perverse and incestuous cravings, a burial ground for frightening experiences which nevertheless come back to haunt us. Frankly, it doesn't sound like anything I'd like to make conscious!

A younger colleague of his, Carl Jung, was to make the exploration of this "inner space" his life's work. He went equipped with a background in Freudian theory, of course, and with an apparently inexhaustible knowledge of mythology, religion, and philosophy. Jung was especially knowledgeable in the symbolism of complex mystical traditions such as Gnosticism, Alchemy, Kabala, and similar traditions in Hinduism and Buddhism. If anyone could make sense of the unconscious and its habit of revealing itself only in symbolic form, it would be Carl Jung.

He had, in addition, a capacity for very lucid dreaming and occasional visions. In the fall of 1913, he had a vision of a "monstrous flood" engulfing most of Europe and lapping at the mountains of his native Switzerland. He saw thousands of people drowning and civilization crumbling. Then, the waters turned into blood. This vision was followed, in the next few weeks, by dreams of eternal winters and rivers of blood. He was afraid that he was becoming psychotic.

But on August 1 of that year, World War I began. Jung felt that there had been a connection, somehow, between himself as an individual and humanity in general that could not be explained away. From then until 1928, he was to go through a rather painful process of self-exploration that formed the basis of all of his later theorizing.

He carefully recorded his dreams, fantasies, and visions, and drew, painted, and sculpted them as well. He found that his experiences tended to form themselves into persons, beginning with a wise old man and his companion, a little girl. The wise old man evolved, over a number of dreams, into a sort of spiritual guru. The little girl became "anima," the feminine soul, who served as his main medium of communication with the deeper aspects of his unconscious.

A leathery brown dwarf would show up guarding the entrance to the unconscious. He was "the shadow," a primitive companion for Jung's ego. Jung dreamt that he and the dwarf killed a beautiful blond youth, whom he called Siegfried. For Jung, this represented a warning about the dangers of the worship of glory and heroism which would soon cause so much sorrow all over Europe -- and a warning about the dangers of some of his own tendencies towards hero-worship, of Sigmund Freud!

Jung dreamt a great deal about the dead, the land of the dead, and the rising of the dead. These represented the unconscious itself -- not the "little" personal unconscious that Freud made such a big deal out of, but a new collective unconscious of humanity itself, an unconscious that could contain all the dead, not just our personal ghosts. Jung began to see the mentally ill as people who are haunted by these ghosts, in an age where no-one is supposed to even believe in them. If we could only recapture our mythologies, we would understand these ghosts, become comfortable with the dead, and heal our mental illnesses.

Critics have suggested that Jung was, very simply, ill himself when all this happened. But Jung felt that, if you want to understand the jungle, you can't be content just to sail back and forth near the shore. You've got to get into it, no matter how strange and frightening it might seem.

Biography

Carl Gustav Jung was born July 26, 1875, in the small Swiss village of Kessewil. His father was Paul Jung, a country parson, and his mother was Emilie Preiswerk Jung. He was surrounded by a fairly well educated extended family, including quite a few clergymen and some eccentrics as well.

The elder Jung started Carl on Latin when he was six years old, beginning a long interest in language and literature -- especially ancient literature. Besides most modern western European languages, Jung could read several ancient ones, including Sanskrit, the language of the original Hindu holy books.

Carl was a rather solitary adolescent, who didn't care much for school, and especially couldn't take competition. He went to boarding school in Basel, Switzerland, where he found himself the object of a lot of jealous harassment. He began to use sickness as an excuse, developing an embarrassing tendency to faint under pressure.

Although his first career choice was archeology, he went on to study medicine at the University of Basel. While working under the famous neurologist Krafft-Ebing, he settled on psychiatry as his career.

After graduating, he took a position at the Burghoeltzli Mental Hospital in Zurich under Eugene Bleuler, an expert on (and the namer of) schizophrenia. In 1903, he married Emma Rauschenbach. He also taught classes at the University of Zurich, had a private practice, and invented word association at this time!

Long an admirer of Freud, he met him in Vienna in 1907. The story goes that after they met, Freud canceled all his appointments for the day, and they talked for 13 hours straight, such was the impact of the meeting of these two great minds! Freud eventually came to see Jung as the crown prince of psychoanalysis and his heir apparent.

But Jung had never been entirely sold on Freud's theory. Their relationship began to cool in 1909, during a trip to America. They were entertaining themselves by analyzing each others' dreams (more fun, apparently, than shuffleboard), when Freud seemed to show an excess of resistance to Jung's efforts at analysis. Freud finally said that they'd have to stop because he was afraid he would lose his authority! Jung felt rather insulted.

World War I was a painful period of self-examination for Jung. It was, however, also the beginning of one of the most interesting theories of personality the world has ever seen.

After the war, Jung traveled widely, visiting, for example, tribal people in Africa, America, and India. He retired in 1946, and began to retreat from public attention after his wife died in 1955. He died on June 6, 1961, in Zurich.

Theory

Jung's theory divides the psyche into three parts. The first is the ego,which Jung identifies with the conscious mind. Closely related is the personal unconscious, which includes anything which is not presently conscious, but can be. The personal unconscious is like most people's understanding of the unconscious in that it includes both memories that are easily brought to mind and those that have been suppressed for some reason. But it does not include the instincts that Freud would have it include.

But then Jung adds the part of the psyche that makes his theory stand out from all others: the collective unconscious. You could call it your "psychic inheritance." It is the reservoir of our experiences as a species, a kind of knowledge we are all born with. And yet we can never be directly conscious of it. It influences all of our experiences and behaviors, most especially the emotional ones, but we only know about it indirectly, by looking at those influences.

There are some experiences that show the effects of the collective unconscious more clearly than others: The experiences of love at first sight, of deja vu (the feeling that you've been here before), and the immediate recognition of certain symbols and the meanings of certain myths, could all be understood as the sudden conjunction of our outer reality and the inner reality of the collective unconscious. Grander examples are the creative experiences shared by artists and musicians all over the world and in all times, or the spiritual experiences of mystics of all religions, or the parallels in dreams, fantasies, mythologies, fairy tales, and literature.

A nice example that has been greatly discussed recently is the near-death experience. It seems that many people, of many different cultural backgrounds, find that they have very similar recollections when they are brought back from a close encounter with death. They speak of leaving their bodies, seeing their bodies and the events surrounding them clearly, of being pulled through a long tunnel towards a bright light, of seeing deceased relatives or religious figures waiting for them, and of their disappointment at having to leave this happy scene to return to their bodies. Perhaps we are all "built" to experience death in this fashion.

Archetypes

The contents of the collective unconscious are called archetypes. Jung also called them dominants, imagos, mythological or primordial images, and a few other names, but archetypes seems to have won out over these. An archetype is an unlearned tendency to experience things in a certain way.

The archetype has no form of its own, but it acts as an "organizing principle" on the things we see or do. It works the way that instincts work in Freud's theory: At first, the baby just wants something to eat, without knowing what it wants. It has a rather indefinite yearning which, nevertheless, can be satisfied by some things and not by others. Later, with experience, the child begins to yearn for something more specific when it is hungry -- a bottle, a cookie, a broiled lobster, a slice of New York style pizza.

The archetype is like a black hole in space: You only know its there by how it draws matter and light to itself.

The mother archetype

The mother archetype is a particularly good example. All of our ancestors had mothers. We have evolved in an environment that included a mother or mother-substitute. We would never have survived without our connection with a nurturing-one during our times as helpless infants. It stands to reason that we are "built" in a way that reflects that evolutionary environment: We come into this world ready to want mother, to seek her, to recognize her, to deal with her.

So the mother archetype is our built-in ability to recognize a certain relationship, that of "mothering." Jung says that this is rather abstract, and we are likely to project the archetype out into the world and onto a particular person, usually our own mothers. Even when an archetype doesn't have a particular real person available, we tend to personify the archetype, that is, turn it into a mythological "story-book" character. This character symbolizes the archetype.

The mother archetype is symbolized by the primordial mother or "earth mother" of mythology, by Eve and Mary in western traditions, and by less personal symbols such as the church, the nation, a forest, or the ocean. According to Jung, someone whose own mother failed to satisfy the demands of the archetype may well be one that spends his or her life seeking comfort in the church, or in identification with "the motherland," or in meditating upon the figure of Mary, or in a life at sea.

Mana

You must understand that these archetypes are not really biological things, like Freud's instincts. They are more spiritual demands. For example, if you dreamt about long things, Freud might suggest these things represent the phallus and ultimately sex. But Jung might have a very different interpretation. Even dreaming quite specifically about a ***** might not have much to do with some unfulfilled need for sex.

It is curious that in primitive societies, phallic symbols do not usually refer to sex at all. They usually symbolize mana, or spiritual power. These symbols would be displayed on occasions when the spirits are being called upon to increase the yield of corn, or fish, or to heal someone. The connection between the ***** and strength, between semen and seed, between fertilization and fertility are understood by most cultures.

The shadow

Sex and the life instincts in general are, of course, represented somewhere in Jung's system. They are a part of an archetype called the shadow. It derives from our prehuman, animal past, when our concerns were limited to survival and reproduction, and when we weren't self-conscious.

It is the "dark side" of the ego, and the evil that we are capable of is often stored there. Actually, the shadow is amoral -- neither good nor bad, just like animals. An animal is capable of tender care for its young and vicious killing for food, but it doesn't choose to do either. It just does what it does. It is "innocent." But from our human perspective, the animal world looks rather brutal, inhuman, so the shadow becomes something of a garbage can for the parts of ourselves that we can't quite admit to.

Symbols of the shadow include the snake (as in the garden of Eden), the dragon, monsters, and demons. It often guards the entrance to a cave or a pool of water, which is the collective unconscious. Next time you dream about wrestling with the devil, it may only be yourself you are wrestling with!

The persona

The persona represents your public image. The word is, obviously, related to the word person and personality, and comes from a Latin word for mask. So the persona is the mask you put on before you show yourself to the outside world. Although it begins as an archetype, by the time we are finished realizing it, it is the part of us most distant from the collective unconscious.

At its best, it is just the "good impression" we all wish to present as we fill the roles society requires of us. But, of course, it can also be the "false impression" we use to manipulate people's opinions and behaviors. And, at its worst, it can be mistaken, even by ourselves, for our true nature: Sometimes we believe we really are what we pretend to be!

Anima and animus

A part of our persona is the role of male or female we must play. For most people that role is determined by their physical gender. But Jung, like Freud and Adler and others, felt that we are all really bisexual in nature. When we begin our lives as fetuses, we have undifferentiated sex organs that only gradually, under the influence of hormones, become male or female. Likewise, when we begin our social lives as infants, we are neither male nor female in the social sense. Almost immediately -- as soon as those pink or blue booties go on -- we come under the influence of society, which gradually molds us into men and women.

In all societies, the expectations placed on men and women differ, usually based on our different roles in reproduction, but often involving many details that are purely traditional. In our society today, we still have many remnants of these traditional expectations. Women are still expected to be more nurturant and less aggressive; men are still expected to be strong and to ignore the emotional side of life. But Jung felt these expectations meant that we had developed only half of our potential.

The anima is the female aspect present in the collective unconscious of men, and the animus is the male aspect present in the collective unconscious of women. Together, they are refered to as syzygy. The anima may be personified as a young girl, very spontaneous and intuitive, or as a witch, or as the earth mother. It is likely to be associated with deep emotionality and the force of life itself. The animus may be personified as a wise old man, a sorcerer, or often a number of males, and tends to be logical, often rationalistic, even argumentative.

The anima or animus is the archetype through which you communicate with the collective unconscious generally, and it is important to get into touch with it. It is also the archetype that is responsible for much of our love life: We are, as an ancient Greek myth suggests, always looking for our other half, the half that the Gods took from us, in members of the opposite sex. When we fall in love at first sight, then we have found someone that "fills" our anima or animus archetype particularly well!

Other archetypes

Jung said that there is no fixed number of archetypes which we could simply list and memorize. They overlap and easily melt into each other as needed, and their logic is not the usual kind. But here are some he mentions:

Besides mother, their are other family archetypes. Obviously, there is father, who is often symbolized by a guide or an authority figure. There is also the archetype family, which represents the idea of blood relationship and ties that run deeper than those based on conscious reasons.

There is also the child, represented in mythology and art by children, infants most especially, as well as other small creatures. The Christ child celebrated at Christmas is a manifestation of the child archetype, and represents the future, becoming, rebirth, and salvation. Curiously, Christmas falls during the winter solstice, which in northern primitive cultures also represents the future and rebirth. People used to light bonfires and perform ceremonies to encourage the sun's return to them. The child archetype often blends with other archetypes to form the child-god, or the child-hero.

Many archetypes are story characters. The hero is one of the main ones. He is the mana personality and the defeater of evil dragons. Basically, he represents the ego -- we do tend to identify with the hero of the story -- and is often engaged in fighting the shadow, in the form of dragons and other monsters. The hero is, however, often dumb as a post. He is, after all, ignorant of the ways of the collective unconscious. Luke Skywalker, in the Star Wars films, is the perfect example of a hero.

The hero is often out to rescue the maiden. She represents purity, innocence, and, in all likelihood, naivete. In the beginning of the Star Wars story, Princess Leia is the maiden. But, as the story progresses, she becomes the anima, discovering the powers of the force -- the collective unconscious -- and becoming an equal partner with Luke, who turns out to be her brother.

The hero is guided by the wise old man. He is a form of the animus, and reveals to the hero the nature of the collective unconscious. In Star Wars, he is played by Obi Wan Kenobi and, later, Yoda. Notice that they teach Luke about the force and, as Luke matures, they die and become a part of him.

You might be curious as to the archetype represented by Darth Vader, the "dark father." He is the shadow and the master of the dark side of the force. He also turns out to be Luke and Leia's father. When he dies, he becomes one of the wise old men.

There is also an animal archetype, representing humanity's relationships with the animal world. The hero's faithful horse would be an example. Snakes are often symbolic of the animal archetype, and are thought to be particularly wise. Animals, after all, are more in touch with their natures than we are. Perhaps loyal little robots and reliable old spaceships -- the Falcon-- are also symbols of animal.

And there is the trickster, often represented by a clown or a magician. The trickster's role is to hamper the hero's progress and to generally make trouble. In Norse mythology, many of the gods' adventures originate in some trick or another played on their majesties by the half-god Loki.

There are other archetypes that are a little more difficult to talk about. One is the original man, represented in western religion by Adam. Another is the God archetype, representing our need to comprehend the universe, to give a meaning to all that happens, to see it all as having some purpose and direction.

The hermaphrodite, both male and female, represents the union of opposites, an important idea in Jung's theory. In some religious art, Jesus is presented as a rather feminine man. Likewise, in China, the character Kuan Yin began as a male saint (the bodhisattva Avalokiteshwara), but was portrayed in such a feminine manner that he is more often thought of as the female goddess of compassion!

The most important archetype of all is the self. The self is the ultimate unity of the personality and is symbolized by the circle, the cross, and the mandala figures that Jung was fond of painting. A mandala is a drawing that is used in meditation because it tends to draw your focus back to the center, and it can be as simple as a geometric figure or as complicated as a stained glass window. The personifications that best represent self are Christ and Buddha, two people who many believe achieved perfection. But Jung felt that perfection of the personality is only truly achieved in death.

The dynamics of the psyche

So much for the content of the psyche. Now let's turn to the principles of its operation. Jung gives us three principles, beginning with the principle of opposites. Every wish immediately suggests its opposite. If I have a good thought, for example, I cannot help but have in me somewhere the opposite bad thought. In fact, it is a very basic point: In order to have a concept of good, you must have a concept of bad, just like you can't have up without down or black without white.

This idea came home to me when I was about eleven. I occasionally tried to help poor innocent woodland creatures who had been hurt in some way -- often, I'm afraid, killing them in the process. Once I tried to nurse a baby robin back to health. But when I picked it up, I was so struck by how light it was that the thought came to me that I could easily crush it in my hand. Mind you, I didn't like the idea, but it was undeniably there.

According to Jung, it is the opposition that creates the power (or libido) of the psyche. It is like the two poles of a battery, or the splitting of an atom. It is the contrast that gives energy, so that a strong contrast gives strong energy, and a weak contrast gives weak energy.

The second principle is the principle of equivalence. The energy created from the opposition is "given" to both sides equally. So, when I held that baby bird in my hand, there was energy to go ahead and try to help it. But there is an equal amount of energy to go ahead and crush it. I tried to help the bird, so that energy went into the various behaviors involved in helping it. But what happens to the other energy?

Well, that depends on your attitude towards the wish that you didn't fulfill. If you acknowledge it, face it, keep it available to the conscious mind, then the energy goes towards a general improvement of your psyche. You grow, in other words.

But if you pretend that you never had that evil wish, if you deny and suppress it, the energy will go towards the development of a complex. A complex is a pattern of suppressed thoughts and feelings that cluster -- constellate -- around a theme provided by some archetype. If you deny ever having thought about crushing the little bird, you might put that idea into the form offered by the shadow (your "dark side"). Or if a man denies his emotional side, his emotionality might find its way into the anima archetype. And so on.

Here's where the problem comes: If you pretend all your life that you are only good, that you don't even have the capacity to lie and cheat and steal and kill, then all the times when you do good, that other side of you goes into a complex around the shadow. That complex will begin to develop a life of its own, and it will haunt you. You might find yourself having nightmares in which you go around stomping on little baby birds!

If it goes on long enough, the complex may take over, may "possess" you, and you might wind up with a multiple personality. In the movie The Three Faces of Eve, Joanne Woodward portrayed a meek, mild woman who eventually discovered that she went out and partied like crazy on Saturday nights. She didn't smoke, but found cigarettes in her purse, didn't drink, but woke up with hangovers, didn't fool around, but found herself in sexy outfits. Although multiple personality is rare, it does tend to involve these kinds of black-and-white extremes.

The final principle is the principle of entropy. This is the tendency for oppositions to come together, and so for energy to decrease, over a person's lifetime. Jung borrowed the idea from physics, where entropy refers to the tendency of all physical systems to "run down," that is, for all energy to become evenly distributed. If you have, for example, a heat source in one corner of the room, the whole room will eventually be heated.

When we are young, the opposites will tend to be extreme, and so we tend to have lots of energy. For example, adolescents tend to exaggerate male-female differences, with boys trying hard to be macho and girls trying equally hard to be feminine. And so their sexual activity is invested with great amounts of energy! Plus, adolescents often swing from one extreme to another, being wild and crazy one minute and finding religion the next.

As we get older, most of us come to be more comfortable with our different facets. We are a bit less naively idealistic and recognize that we are all mixtures of good and bad. We are less threatened by the opposite sex within us and become more androgynous. Even physically, in old age, men and women become more alike. This process of rising above our opposites, of seeing both sides of who we are, is called transcendence.

The self

The goal of life is to realize the self. The self is an archetype that represents the transcendence of all opposites, so that every aspect of your personality is expressed equally. You are then neither and both male and female, neither and both ego and shadow, neither and both good and bad, neither and both conscious and unconscious, neither and both an individual and the whole of creation. And yet, with no oppositions, there is no energy, and you cease to act. Of course, you no longer need to act.

To keep it from getting too mystical, think of it as a new center, a more balanced position, for your psyche. When you are young, you focus on the ego and worry about the trivialities of the persona. When you are older (assuming you have been developing as you should), you focus a little deeper, on the self, and become closer to all people, all life, even the universe itself. The self-realized person is actually less selfish.

Synchronicity

Personality theorists have argued for many years about whether psychological processes function in terms of mechanism or teleology. Mechanism is the idea that things work in through cause and effect: One thing leads to another which leads to another, and so on, so that the past determines the present. Teleology is the idea that we are lead on by our ideas about a future state, by things like purposes, meanings, values, and so on. Mechanism is linked with determinism and with the natural sciences. Teleology is linked with free will and has become rather rare. It is still common among moral, legal, and religious philosophers, and, of course, among personality theorists.

Among the people discussed in this book, Freudians and behaviorists tend to be mechanists, while the neo-Freudians, humanists, and existentialists tend to be teleologists. Jung believes that both play a part. But he adds a third alternative called synchronicity.

Synchronicity is the occurrence of two events that are not linked causally, nor linked teleologically, yet are meaningfully related. Once, a client was describing a dream involving a scarab beetle when, at that very instant, a very similar beetle flew into the window. Often, people dream about something, like the death of a loved one, and find the next morning that their loved one did, in fact, die at about that time. Sometimes people pick up he phone to call a friend, only to find that their friend is already on the line. Most psychologists would call these things coincidences, or try to show how they are more likely to occur than we think. Jung believed the were indications of how we are connected, with our fellow humans and with nature in general, through the collective unconscious.

Jung was never clear about his own religious beliefs. But this unusual idea of synchronicity is easily explained by the Hindu view of reality. In the Hindu view, our individual egos are like islands in a sea: We look out at the world and each other and think we are separate entities. What we don't see is that we are connected to each other by means of the ocean floor beneath the waters.

The outer world is called maya, meaning illusion, and is thought of as God's dream or God's dance. That is, God creates it, but it has no reality of its own. Our individual egos they call jivatman, which means individual souls. But they, too, are something of an illusion. We are all actually extensions of the one and only Atman, or God, who allows bits of himself to forget his identity, to become apparently separate and independent, to become us. But we never truly are separate. When we die, we wake up and realize who we were from the beginning: God.

When we dream or meditate, we sink into our personal unconscious, coming closer and closer to our true selves, the collective unconscious. It is in states like this that we are especially open to "communications" from other egos. Synchronicity makes Jung's theory one of the rare ones that is not only compatible with parapsychological phenomena, but actually tries to explain them!

Introversion and extroversion

Jung developed a personality typology that has become so popular that some people don't realize he did anything else! It begins with the distinction between introversion and extroversion. Introverts are people who prefer their internal world of thoughts, feelings, fantasies, dreams, and so on, while extroverts prefer the external world of things and people and activities.

The words have become confused with ideas like shyness and sociability, partially because introverts tend to be shy and extroverts tend to be sociable. But Jung intended for them to refer more to whether you ("ego") more often faced toward the persona and outer reality, or toward the collective unconscious and its archetypes. In that sense, the introvert is somewhat more mature than the extrovert. Our culture, of course, values the extrovert much more. And Jung warned that we all tend to value our own type most!

We now find the introvert-extravert dimension in several theories, notably Hans Eysenck's, although often hidden under alternative names such as "sociability" and "surgency."

The functions

Whether we are introverts or extroverts, we need to deal with the world, inner and outer. And each of us has our preferred ways of dealing with it, ways we are comfortable with and good at. Jung suggests there are four basic ways, or functions:

The first is sensing. Sensing means what it says: getting information by means of the senses. A sensing person is good at looking and listening and generally getting to know the world. Jung called this one of the irrational functions, meaning that it involved perception rather than judging of information.

The second is thinking. Thinking means evaluating information or ideas rationally, logically. Jung called this a rational function, meaning that it involves decision making or judging, rather than simple intake of information.

The third is intuiting. Intuiting is a kind of perception that works outside of the usual conscious processes. It is irrational or perceptual, like sensing, but comes from the complex integration of large amounts of information, rather than simple seeing or hearing. Jung said it was like seeing around corners.

The fourth is feeling. Feeling, like thinking, is a matter of evaluating information, this time by weighing one's overall, emotional response. Jung calls it rational, obviously not in the usual sense of the word.

We all have these functions. We just have them in different proportions, you might say. Each of us has a superior function, which we prefer and which is best developed in us, a secondary function, which we are aware of and use in support of our superior function, a tertiary function, which is only slightly less developed but not terribly conscious, and an inferior function, which is poorly developed and so unconscious that we might deny its existence in ourselves.

Most of us develop only one or two of the functions, but our goal should be to develop all four. Once again, Jung sees the transcendence of opposites as the ideal.

Assessment

Katharine Briggs and her daughter Isabel Briggs Myers found Jung's types and functions so revealing of people's personalities that they decided to develop a paper-and-pencil test. It came to be called the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator, and is one of the most popular, and most studied, tests around.

On the basis of your answers on about 125 questions, you are placed in one of sixteen types, with the understanding that some people might find themselves somewhere between two or three types. What type you are says quite a bit about you -- your likes and dislikes, your likely career choices, your compatibility with others, and so on. People tend to like it quite a bit. It has the unusual quality among personality tests of not being too judgmental: None of the types is terribly negative, nor are any overly positive. Rather than assessing how "crazy" you are, the "Myers-Briggs" simply opens up your personality for exploration.

The test has four scales. Extroversion - Introversion (E-I) is the most important. Test researchers have found that about 75 % of the population is extroverted.

The next one is Sensing - Intuiting (S-N), with about 75 % of the population sensing.

The next is Thinking - Feeling (T-F). Although these are distributed evenly through the population, researchers have found that two-thirds of men are thinkers, while two-thirds of women are feelers. This might seem like stereotyping, but keep in mind that feeling and thinking are both valued equally by Jungians, and that one-third of men are feelers and one-third of women are thinkers. Note, though, that society does value thinking and feeling differently, and that feeling men and thinking women often have difficulties dealing with people's stereotyped expectations.

The last is Judging - Perceiving (J-P), not one of Jung's original dimensions. Myers and Briggs included this one in order to help determine which of a person's functions is superior. Generally, judging people are more careful, perhaps inhibited, in their lives. Perceiving people tend to be more spontaneous, sometimes careless. If you are an extrovert and a "J," you are a thinker or feeler, whichever is stronger. Extroverted and "P" means you are a senser or intuiter. On the other hand, an introvert with a high "J" score will be a senser or intuiter, while an introvert with a high "P" score will be a thinker or feeler. J and P are equally distributed in the population.

Each type is identified by four letters, such as ENFJ. These have proven so popular, you can even find them on people's license plates!

ENFJ (Extroverted feeling with intuiting): These people are easy speakers. They tend to idealize their friends. They make good parents, but have a tendency to allow themselves to be used. They make good therapists, teachers, executives, and salespeople.

ENFP (Extroverted intuiting with feeling): These people love novelty and surprises. They are big on emotions and expression. They are susceptible to muscle tension and tend to be hyperalert. they tend to feel self-conscious. They are good at sales, advertising, politics, and acting.

ENTJ (Extroverted thinking with intuiting): In charge at home, they expect a lot from spouses and kids. They like organization and structure and tend to make good executives and administrators.

ENTP (Extroverted intuiting with thinking): These are lively people, not humdrum or orderly. As mates, they are a little dangerous, especially economically. They are good at analysis and make good entrepreneurs. They do tend to play at oneupmanship.

ESFJ (Extroverted feeling with sensing): These people like harmony. They tend to have strong shoulds and should-nots. They may be dependent, first on parents and later on spouses. They wear their hearts on their sleeves and excel in service occupations involving personal contact.

ESFP (Extroverted sensing with feeling): Very generous and impulsive, they have a low tolerance for anxiety. They make good performers, they like public relations, and they love the phone. They should avoid scholarly pursuits, especially science.

ESTJ (Extroverted thinking with sensing): These are responsible mates and parents and are loyal to the workplace. They are realistic, down-to-earth, orderly, and love tradition. They often find themselves joining civic clubs!

ESTP (Extroverted sensing with thinking): These are action-oriented people, often sophisticated, sometimes ruthless -- our "James Bonds." As mates, they are exciting and charming, but they have trouble with commitment. They make good promoters, entrepreneurs, and con artists.

INFJ (Introverted intuiting with feeling): These are serious students and workers who really want to contribute. They are private and easily hurt. They make good spouses, but tend to be physically reserved. People often think they are psychic. They make good therapists, general practitioners, ministers, and so on.

INFP (Introverted feeling with intuiting): These people are idealistic, self-sacrificing, and somewhat cool or reserved. They are very family and home oriented, but don't relax well. You find them in psychology, architecture, and religion, but never in business. Both Jung and I admire this type. Of course, both Jung and I are this type!

INTJ (Introverted intuiting with thinking): These are the most independent of all types. They love logic and ideas and are drawn to scientific research. They can be rather single-minded, though.

INTP (Introverted thinking with intuiting): Faithful, preoccupied, and forgetful, these are the bookworms. They tend to be very precise in their use of language. They are good at logic and math and make good philosophers and theoretical scientists, but not writers or salespeople.

ISFJ (Introverted sensing with feeling): These people are service and work oriented. They may suffer from fatigue and tend to be attracted to troublemakers. They are good nurses, teachers, secretaries, general practitioners, librarians, middle managers, and housekeepers.

ISFP (Introverted feeling with sensing): They are shy and retiring, are not talkative, but like sensuous action. They like painting, drawing, sculpting, composing, dancing -- the arts generally -- and they like nature. They are not big on commitment.

ISTJ (Introverted sensing with thinking): These are dependable pillars of strength. They often try to reform their mates and other people. They make good bank examiners, auditors, accountants, tax examiners, supervisors in libraries and hospitals, business, home ec., and phys. ed. teachers, and boy or girl scouts!

ISTP (Introverted thinking with sensing): These people are action-oriented and fearless, and crave excitement. They are impulsive and dangerous to stop. They often like tools, instruments, and weapons, and often become technical experts. They are not interested in communications and are often incorrectly diagnosed as dyslexic or hyperactive. They tend to do badly in school.

Link (http://www.ship.edu/~cgboeree/jung.html)

There you go.

[Deevo]

I'll just say here that I've got my own ideas on who'd be good pairings but quite frankly if it doesn't happen my world isn't going to fall apart. This is after all Harry Potter not Mills and Boon we're discussing though as Jo herself said there is nothing wrong with a little romance.

As I said in a previous post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?p=1600196#post1600196) in the Luna Lovegood thread (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=12149) I don't see a Luna Harry romance as a realistic chance. She's more like a surrogate sibling come confidant than a romantic prospect.
Of course I'm not Jo so I could be quite wrong, it wouldn't be the first time. :eyebrows:

Likewise I don't see any likelyhood of a romance between Harry and Hermione for similar reasons. I feel that Hermione and Luna are kind of like the Spock and Mccoy to Harry's Kirk (Now is that referance dating me or what?) with the logic on one side and the faith on the other. I think both girls are important to him as friends, advisors and confidants but neither would suit as a romantic interest.
Of course I'm not Jo so I could be quite wrong, it wouldn't be the first time. :eyebrows:

So who do I feel is right for a little romance for Harry, well Ginny. She's obviously strong, capable and since she seems to be well over her crush on "the boy who lived" and is seeing Harry as Harry these days it seems she's well able for him. Add to that she seems to be the only girl in his group that seems to be able to handle his recent moodiness and still communicate with him on something aproaching an adult level. I don't really know if there is any more than friendship between them at this stage but they do seem well matched. This is a couple that, IMO of course, could work well.
Of course I'm not Jo so I could be quite wrong, it wouldn't be the first time. :eyebrows:

The other pairing that seems obvious to me is Ron and Hermione. Their squabbling in the earlier books has been down primarily to Ron's lack of emotional maturity (like most of us mere males were in our teens :blush: ). This appears to have subtley shifted in OOTP as one editorial (http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/madampuddifoot/edit-khayes01.shtml) on Mugglenet pointed out to a more mature and mutual relationship. Time will tell if this will develope or not but I feel that like Ginny and Harry these two are well matched.
Of course I'm not Jo so I could be quite wrong, it wouldn't be the first time. :eyebrows:

Like I said though if none of this happens my world isn't going to fall apart. Jo is telling the story and I have every faith in her ability to keep up the good work.

[Laufa]

But that's exactly the problem Luna has not accepted her mother's death. She lives hanging on to the hope that she will see her mother again, hoping to get and have another glimpse or encounter with her. That's not accepting someone's death it's holding on to them. Accepting is letting them go and remembering them how they wanted to be remember. Luna doesn't do that and I failed to see how Harry feeling less pity for Luna is helping the relationship.

I don't agree with that. All Luna stated was that she'd see her mother again. She was very calm about it; not like Harry who ran around finding every possible solution to see Sirius again.
I took Luna's word as that there was more to death than Harry knew, but she did know. I didn't see her hanging on to a last straw of desperate hope.

And I didn't mean that Harry felt less pity for Luna - I know the first feeling he felt was pity - but that she lessened the knot in his stomach when he watched her walk away. I do find the end of scene very sweet!

Luna never met Sirius. Ginny on the other hand spend an entire summer in his home and knew him well enough to care what could happen to him. If there is anyone that has been shown in the books that can help on rising Harry's moods is Ginny.

Oh, I agree with that. When it comes to grief, Ginny will help alot - she also loved and lost.
However I still think that when it comes to death Luna will be the one to teach Harry. He did hear the voices, and he knew he wasn't the only one.

I don't mean to be rude but I fail to see the evidence for H/L. I have tried but I don't see it. Luna is a great character but for me she's not being set up for either Harry, Ron or most probably neither for Neville and that's the ship that could have any romantic foreshadowing but it's not very clear. Luna is one of the many reasons of why I wish HBP would come out.

That's OK :) I'm not really sure the ship will happen, but I'd love it to!

Since you mention L/N, do they even know each other? I know they sat in the same compartment in the train, and fought in the DoM, but are they pals?

I'm sorry but he does believe she has crazy ideas even after:

OotP Page 863:
Harry did not know what to say, or to think. Luna believed so many extraordinary things... yet he had been sure he had heard voices behind the veil.

Even when Harry has his own ears to prove that the voices did indeed existed Harry still thinks that Luna believes to many weird stuff. To be honest Luna believing crazy stuff is what makes her the great character that she is, but Harry has to many inconsistencies and this scene is one of the moments that to me shows why H/L are not being set up toguether.

Well, Luna does belive alot of crazy stuff ;) I think this showed him that even if she belived alot of stuff that sounded crazy, she was obviously right about something - who knows, perhaps she'll show us a Snorkack in book 6 :D

I do find that Harry's view of Luna in OotP was negative (mad eyes, etc. etc.). However, after their chat, did she get a negative description? And I'm really asking, I lended my book and can't look it up...



Thanks for the compliment :blush: you should visit our collections of essays (link on my sig) some people put a lot of effort in them. :eyebrows: Maybe we can get you to join us. :p

I have read some of them. I think essays from Chocolate and Harmony, which both have to go in between the lines at time are very good. I like reading them, and perhaps I'll join if HBP is Chocolate friendly ;)

I'm actually excusing myself because when book 5 came out and I gave my impression of Luna I got accused of Luna bashing (not in this forum) by some H/L shippers and being biased towards my ship. I can assure anyone that it's not the case. I don't think either that my opinion is offensive towards her character. She just gave me one impression from my first read and I can't seem to shake it off and I have tried. So I only apologize before hand because debates tend to get horrible quickly and suddenly it's believe that you hate their character for the sake of your ship.

What impression did she give you?

I don't think you're Luna bashing - at least not in these posts. I don't find the opinion you voice here offensive, and enjoy your posts :)


It feels weird defending a ship you really want to happen against the ship you think probably will happen.
GilyAnn, if it's OK with you I think my debate over H/L and H/G is over, since I really do ship neither and am quite lost myself in this sometimes :) However, if you will, please answer what I was saying above - I'd like a Chocolate view on Neville/Luna, for example.

Love,
Eyrún

[FlyingPhoenix]

Likewise I don't see any likelyhood of a romance between Harry and Hermione for similar reasons. I feel that Hermione and Luna are kind of like the Spock and Mccoy to Harry's Kirk (Now is that referance dating me or what?) with the logic on one side and the faith on the other. I think both girls are important to him as friends, advisors and confidants but neither would suit as a romantic interest.

:welcome: Deevo to the Luve Thread. Did you know that there are people who actuall argue Spock and Kirk were more than just friends? Yeah, you thought HP-Fandom is well interesting? You need to have a look at the grandfather of all fandoms Star Trek. Interesting enough I never saw someone ship McCoy/Kirk though but uhm McCoy/Spock. Reminds me at R/Hr but thats just me.

[Deevo]

:welcome: Deevo to the Luve Thread. Did you know that there are people who actuall argue Spock and Kirk were more than just friends?

Scary thought but not one I'm unfamiliar with.

Yeah, you thought HP-Fandom is well interesting? You need to have a look at the grandfather of all fandoms Star Trek. Interesting enough I never saw someone ship McCoy/Kirk though but uhm McCoy/Spock. Reminds me at R/Hr but thats just me.

The way the two have squabbled through the books certainly looks that way. I'd like to think the two (That's R/HR not Mccoy/Spock by the way :blush: ) have progressed beyond squabbling friends to something more meaningful.

But like I said before time will tell.

Roll on Half Blood Prince.

[The Leprechaun]

Could you expand on this perchance? I walked through the last couple of chapters a little while ago, and found a single conversation where Harry didn't think Luna was completely nutters. And I'm not remembering any "hints" for Ginny either....

The Second War Begins, OotP evidence that Harry seems to have more interest in Ginny or Luna (the last chapter of OotP). All of the information is found in the last chapter of OotP, unless specifically noted.

Plus, there is no evidence that Harry likes anyone by the end of the book. He seems to have more of an interest in Ginny or Luna by the end of the book.
-He and Ginny have a cute moment in the infirmary (hostpital wing).

Ginny caught Harry's eye and looked away quickly, grinning.

That sounds to me like Ginny still has something for Harry, but that something has matured. She has also done this in GoF or PoA (repitition is good), I can't remember which (IceKat probably has it in her H/G article). And don't you love the phrasing, 'Ginny caught Harry's eye....,' that sounds like foreshadowing to me. Ginny was also able to get Harry to tell her he wanted to talk to Sirius, which Ron and Hermione were unable to do. He was glad that Hermione thought that his dazed behavior was about Cho. Showing that Ginny can reach Harry faster and without as much fighting as Hermione (note this is referring to Hermione's dissaproval of the first time Harry wanted to break into Umbridge's office). (OotP pages 652, 654-656, 660-661, 666).
-It's interesting how Ron mocks Umbridge, after she was brought back from the Centaurs, and Hermione and Ginny laugh (Hermione is still recovering from the comment when she speaks again). She didn't chastise Ron, like she normally would (Lockhart, Snape, Grubbly Plank, Quirrell, and maybe a few more), she laughs at his joke.
-When Hermione shows signs of wanting to talk to Harry about Sirius, I don't think that she has enough respect for him to let him digest the information himself. Ron on the otherhand tells her to be quite about it, this leads me to beliive that they are starting to put away their bickering for Harry's sake and they are starting to work together a little better (maybe something happened in the infirmary that calmed their fighting a little :eyebrows: ).
-Later, Luna does a fabulous job of being the only one who really consoled Harry.
-Not to mention when Ginny volunteers the information about Michael and Cho, she does it rather fast, maybe telling Harry that she has grown up over the year and that she is free (this after Harry says he isn't interested in Cho anymore). Ron basically says that he will allow Harry to date her, without complaint (note her response should be taken with a grain of salt, and vaguely doesn't equal rock solid evidence). This was probably said to torque Ron off than for any other reason.
In conclusion I see no evidence supporting anything that could be viewed as Harmony (in fact I see a little more that supports Heron), and see a lot that support Chocolate and Moonlight). If I am wrong tell me, but I doubt that there is anything. And I quote Harry, 'So much of what he had wanted before before Sirius's death felt that way these days . . . The week that had elasped since he had last seen Sirius seemed to have lasted much, much longer: It stretched across two universes, the one with Sirius in it, and the one without.'

This is something I posted quite a while ago, but it gives some of my views. I haven't altered it, because I posted it quite late here. I'm not sure what is in it, but that I agreed with it and that it holds just the last chapter of OotP.

Well, good night all and happy shipping.

[Corbin Dallas]

And on that note

HAPPY BIRTHDAY ANGUA9! :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

I've never heard of Jung(or maybe I have and didn't know it) but this is the first time I've seen it in the R/Hr and H/Hr shipping debate.
I've never heard of jung either and according to those who know it wouldn't matter if JK has either, I mean the idea that she plotted out the story, wrote an outline and has said she would stick by it is inconsequential because unconciously she's writing to Jung's form, oh and this is known because Jo has researched and borrowed from mythology. I have no idea how this works and basically would rather stick to the canon but hey, if you like then go for it, oh just like to point out that because there are some similarities to what Jo is doing and what Jung says doesn't mean that Jung applies, or a better way to explain is it is all weasels are muesaltides but not all muesaltides are weasels...
HAPPY BIRTHDAY ANGUA9 :birthday: :birthday: :birthday:
CD

[delemtri]

I've never heard of jung either and according to those who know it wouldn't matter if JK has either, I mean the idea that she plotted out the story, wrote an outline and has said she would stick by it is inconsequential because unconciously she's writing to Jung's form, oh and this is known because Jo has researched and borrowed from mythology. I have no idea how this works and basically would rather stick to the canon but hey, if you like then go for it, oh just like to point out that because there are some similarities to what Jo is doing and what Jung says doesn't mean that Jung applies, or a better way to explain is it is all weasels are muesaltides but not all muesaltides are weasels...
HAPPY BIRTHDAY ANGUA9 :birthday: :birthday: :birthday:
CD

Well posted. Though other Herons have provided an effective criticism of Sienna's original Jungian analysis, I still question his relevance. What makes saying "Jung said this so this will happen" any better than any other theory backed up by broad generalizations of canon and unable to be engaged in a real debate on textual interpretation? Nothing. What makes it worse? Well, the fact that if we look at the Potterverse through Jung's eyes, we're not fans anymore. In doing so we are effectively removing ourselves from our *special* connection with the world of the series which arises from its *life* - its pervasive mystery and the basic fact that it hasn't been finished yet - and considering the world as a *dead* piece of art or literature.

[GilyAnn]

I don't agree with that. All Luna stated was that she'd see her mother again. She was very calm about it; not like Harry who ran around finding every possible solution to see Sirius again.
I took Luna's word as that there was more to death than Harry knew, but she did know. I didn't see her hanging on to a last straw of desperate hope.

And I didn't mean that Harry felt less pity for Luna - I know the first feeling he felt was pity - but that she lessened the knot in his stomach when he watched her walk away. I do find the end of scene very sweet!

No that may have come out the wrong way. I don't mean to imply that Luna is waiting desperately to see her mother and looks for her in every corner. That's certainly not what Luna does, but in a way Luna is waiting for the impossible. Luna holds on to a false hope of seeing her mother again and the only that for now it looks like it can happen if it's she's dead herself.

Oh, I agree with that. When it comes to grief, Ginny will help alot - she also loved and lost.
However I still think that when it comes to death Luna will be the one to teach Harry. He did hear the voices, and he knew he wasn't the only one.

I think sometimes we forget that more than loosing someone dear, Ginny has experienced almost completly death herself. Since she was near dying in the chamber if there is someone that can tell Harry how would it be like is Ginny. Why do think that she apparently could hear the voices too?

Since you mention L/N, do they even know each other? I know they sat in the same compartment in the train, and fought in the DoM, but are they pals?

I think that if we got to stricly into romantic guidelines N/L do have a romantic introduction. Neville refuses to sit near her, Luna compliments him. It's kind of a funny meeting. Notice that while everyone doubts the spirits of fire Neville actually believes Luna and ask what are the horn whatever and while he laughs at Hermione's joke I can't remember from the top of my head actively making fun of Luna. If we go strick romance introductions N/L do have one.

Well, Luna does belive alot of crazy stuff ;) I think this showed him that even if she belived alot of stuff that sounded crazy, she was obviously right about something - who knows, perhaps she'll show us a Snorkack in book 6 :D

I do find that Harry's view of Luna in OotP was negative (mad eyes, etc. etc.). However, after their chat, did she get a negative description? And I'm really asking, I lended my book and can't look it up...

Yes he still does viewed her in a negative light. When she stares at him he says that she's looking at him with her oddly misty, protuberant eyes which is description of her eyes it's the general concept what I'm looking on and still after the conversation Harry doesn't change his opinion. Harry doesn't think that maybe Luna is right after all and they should follow her in her beliefs. My viewed is that Harry still think that Luna believes stuff that are not possible, he doesn't reach her level. Oh and I really do hope that we get to see the Snorback too, I would love to know what the trio would say!


I have read some of them. I think essays from Chocolate and Harmony, which both have to go in between the lines at time are very good. I like reading them, and perhaps I'll join if HBP is Chocolate friendly ;)

:tu:

What impression did she give you?

I don't think you're Luna bashing - at least not in these posts. I don't find the opinion you voice here offensive, and enjoy your posts :)

I may come up as such a weirdo, check your PM. :p I tried to check on the thread on this forum about the subject and I can't find it so I would refrain from posting just in case the mods had a problem with the previous thread.


t feels weird defending a ship you really want to happen against the ship you think probably will happen.
GilyAnn, if it's OK with you I think my debate over H/L and H/G is over, since I really do ship neither and am quite lost myself in this sometimes :) However, if you will, please answer what I was saying above - I'd like a Chocolate view on Neville/Luna, for example.

I hope I did answer your questions about N/L because I had to pause several time while I made this post and now I can't remember

GIly Ann

[Laufa]

GilyAnn,

Thanks for your response. I read the PM you sent me, I wasn't freaked out! ;)

I do see that Neville and Luna have this cutesy teensy thing about them, but if we see how their charachters are growing - neither seems to be a cute teen - I don't think I see this ship. Sorry :D

Love,
Eyrún

[esicardi]

Kia posted in her live journal (http://www.livejournal.com/users/no_remorse/) an old, but never seen before interview with JKR (http://www.livejournal.com/users/no_remorse/71409.html) interview with JKR, published in German newspaper Frankfurter Rundschau on the 07/08/2000.
Check it up, the bits Kia posted are really worthy of reading, especially this one (bold mine):


Q: Is Harry going to fall in love [in Book Four]?

I don't believe that fourteen-year-olds can truly fall in love. There are other words for that. He is going to discover girls. He likes a girl, but she doesn't like him in the same way. That was very important for me. I wanted him to grow in a realistic manner.


I think this doesn't look well for Herons, since R/Hr is supposed to start when they were 14 (book 4). Everyone is in love with the wrong person indeed! :rotfl:
On the other hand, when this doesn't warrant H/Hr, it doesn't look bad in the Harmony perspective, since according the current canon it looks as Hermione only realized her feelings in book 5 (15 > 14), and we don't expect Harry to fall for her until book 6 as the earliest (16>14).

See you,
esicardi
ETA: :clap: for Kia

[Krumpet]

HAPPY BIRTHDAY ANGUA9 :birthday: I have greatly enjoyed your essays, you are a true boon to the HMS Heron. :D

[Laufa]

In love?

I don't think people say that, however, feelings were starting to evolve then. I don't even say they're in love now..?

Love,
Eyrún

[Corbin Dallas]

Kia posted in her live journal (http://www.livejournal.com/users/no_remorse/) an old, but never seen before interview with JKR (http://www.livejournal.com/users/no_remorse/71409.html) interview with JKR, published in German newspaper Frankfurter Rundschau on the 07/08/2000.
Check it up, the bits Kia posted are really worthy of reading, especially this one (bold mine):


Q: Is Harry going to fall in love [in Book Four]?

I don't believe that fourteen-year-olds can truly fall in love. There are other words for that. He is going to discover girls. He likes a girl, but she doesn't like him in the same way. That was very important for me. I wanted him to grow in a realistic manner.


I think this doesn't look well for Herons, since R/Hr is supposed to start when they were 14 (book 4). Everyone is in love with the wrong person indeed! :rotfl:
On the other hand, when this doesn't warrant H/Hr, it doesn't look bad in the Harmony perspective, since according the current canon it looks as Hermione only realized her feelings in book 5 (15 > 14), and we don't expect Harry to fall for her until book 6 as the earliest (16>14).

See you,
esicardi
ETA: :clap: for Kia
Hey Esicardi, who'd Harry ask to the Ball? Cho and wasn't she pinning over Cedric and not Harry in Goblet? Oh and wasn't it clear that Harry was interested in Cho? Thanx for the quote, it actually rather puts some large wholes in the Harmony ship ;)
CD

[esicardi]

In love?

I don't think people say that, however, feelings were starting to evolve then. I don't even say they're in love now..?

Love,
Eyrún

Since the answer about Hermione liking (or not) Ron more than a friend is in GoF (according JKR), I'd say JKR saying that 14 years old can't possibly fall in love is pretty damaging for your ship. :evil:

[Laufa]

Seriously, people seem to mix up 'love' and 'fancy' alot.

Ron fancies Hermione, IMO. Does he love her? I don't see many Herons here stating that he does. Sure, he loves her dearly as a friends, and he might fancy the socks off her..

I think Hermione fancies Ron. Love? Not yet.

For me, love comes after a relationship has existed for some time. Like does not equal love, so I honestly don't see how this sinks Heron. (Especially when JKR saying 'no' to a H/Hr date doesn't sink Harmony, but a quote about 14 year olds not being in love is supposed to put holes in Heron)

Love,
Eyrún

ETA: esicardi, liking him more than a friend ---> fancying him ----> not neccesarily loving him?

[Corbin Dallas]

Since the answer about Hermione liking (or not) Ron more than a friend is in GoF (according JKR), I'd say JKR saying that 14 years old can't possibly fall in love is pretty damaging for your ship. :evil:
the question is "like as more than as a friend" and Jo even qualifies it later by confirming "something is going on but Ron doesn't realize it, typical boy". This is the beginning of Romance, love comes later on as it deepens...
CD

[esicardi]

Hey Esicardi, who'd Harry ask to the Ball? Cho and wasn't she pinning over Cedric and not Harry in Goblet? Oh and wasn't it clear that Harry was interested in Cho? Thanx for the quote, it actually rather puts some large wholes in the Harmony ship ;)
CD

How?
JKR is saying that 14 years old don't fall in love. So Cho is wrong for Harry, as we already knew. But also we can apply this to R/Hr, and when together to the quote that says that the answer about Hermione liking Ron more than a friend is in GoF, it is pretty damaging to your ship. Also is an example of JKR being tricky. She says Cho didn't like Harry back, but that's not true, as we saw in book 5. In book 4 she liked Cedric better, but she liked Harry as well (remember Cho blushing when Harry asked her?).

[Laufa]

How?
JKR is saying that 14 years old don't fall in love. So Cho is wrong for Harry, as we already knew. But also we can apply this to R/Hr, and when together to the quote that says that the answer about Hermione liking Ron more than a friend is in GoF, it is pretty damaging to your ship. Also is an example of JKR being tricky. She says Cho didn't like Harry back, but that's not true, as we saw in book 5. In book 4 she liked Cedric better, but she liked Harry as well (remember Cho blushing when Harry asked her?).

I'm sorry, but where did JKR say the answer to Hermione loving Ron was in GoF?

Loving someone is not the same as fancying someone!

Love,
Eyrún

[Corbin Dallas]

How?
JKR is saying that 14 years old don't fall in love. So Cho is wrong for Harry, as we already knew. But also we can apply this to R/Hr, and when together to the quote that says that the answer about Hermione liking Ron more than a friend is in GoF, it is pretty damaging to your ship. Also is an example of JKR being tricky. She says Cho didn't like Harry back, but that's not true, as we saw in book 5. In book 4 she liked Cedric better, but she liked Harry as well (remember Cho blushing when Harry asked her?).
see Luafa's post esicardi, Cho didn't like Harry that way yet because she liked Cedric that way at the time, now as to love like Luafa saiid above, but nice try Esicardi...
CD

[esicardi]

Seriously, people seem to mix up 'love' and 'fancy' alot.

Ron fancies Hermione, IMO. Does he love her? I don't see many Herons here stating that he does. Sure, he loves her dearly as a friends, and he might fancy the socks off her..

I think Hermione fancies Ron. Love? Not yet.

For me, love comes after a relationship has existed for some time. Like does not equal love, so I honestly don't see how this sinks Heron. (Especially when JKR saying 'no' to a H/Hr date doesn't sink Harmony, but a quote about 14 year olds not being in love is supposed to put holes in Heron)

Love,
Eyrún

ETA: esicardi, liking him more than a friend ---> fancying him ----> not neccesarily loving him?

*sighs*
If Ron fancies Hermione but doesn't love her surely he could get over her and start liking someone else. That's the point.
Also this quote reinforces the "wrong people" ones. It looks as JKR doesn't see as believable people falling for the people they fancied at 14 (see Harry/Cho as an example), so it looks bad indeed for R/Hr.

[Krumpet]

Since the answer about Hermione liking (or not) Ron more than a friend is in GoF (according JKR), I'd say JKR saying that 14 years old can't possibly fall in love is pretty damaging for your ship. :evil:

I think very few Herons assert that Hermione "fell in love" with Ron in GoF. What many think is that a strong romantic interest was formed. It's been tempered in OotP, and *fingers crossed* hopefully it will see it's final formation in HBP. I don't really see the quote as hurting my ship because in GoF Harry was quite interested in Cho, as CD pointed out before me.

What's important was that the spark, and the interest where formed in GoF. (Which is where the answer this debate lies). Hermione acted very interested in Ron in GoF so that's still my ship.

[esicardi]

I'm sorry, but where did JKR say the answer to Hermione loving Ron was in GoF?

Loving someone is not the same as fancying someone!

Love,
Eyrún

If you see the context (H/C), JKR is kind of dooming romances that started at that age. So no matter how you twist it, it doesn't look well for R/Hr, not to mention it looks bad for H/G as well. :p

[Laufa]

*sighs*
If Ron fancies Hermione but doesn't love her surely he could get over her and start liking someone else. That's the point.

Erm, no? You really, really, fancy someone, however, you do not love them in 'that way' until you're in a relationship with them. That's just life - love is two-sided; fancying someone and liking someone is often one-sided.
People can fancy each other for years, and then when they get together, they fall in love.
You might be mixing up a crush and fancying - a crush is usually concerning someone famous, that is you do not know the person. You often fancy your friends, someone who goes to your class or school. You love your boyfriend/husband.

Also this quote reinforces the "wrong people" ones. It looks as JKR doesn't see as believable people falling for the people they fancied at 14 (see Harry/Cho as an example), so it looks bad indeed for R/Hr.

Ron and Hermione's feelings changed towards each other in GoF. It was akward and silly and continued in OotP (IMO, of course). I don't care if Ron and Hermione end up together for two weeks or 20 years or 80 years; I ship them because as of now, I do think they'll get together. JKR only stated about falling in love at 14. No one here (except you?) claims that Ron and Hermione fell in love in GoF.

Love,
Eyrún

ETA: esicardi, I really don't understand what you're on about.
Because JKR says that people don't fall in love at 14, Ron and Hermione canðt fancy each other at 14?
Harry did not know Cho; he was at first crushing on her and that crush grew into fancying. When he got to know her better, however, he realized that they weren't suited.
Ron and Hermione know what they're getting themselves into and honestly, they aren't in love.

[Corbin Dallas]

If you see the context (H/C), JKR is kind of dooming romances that started at that age. So no matter how you twist it, it doesn't look well for R/Hr, not to mention it looks bad for H/G as well. :p
in a way you're right there Esicardi, James fancied Lily at that age and they got married and murdered before 25, sheesh Jo isn't easy on young love, but wait Molly and Arthur dated back in school, speciffic ages aren't given but how is 15 or 16 that different from 14? Seems it can work out afterall. again, nice try...
CD

[Laufa]

in a way you're right there Esicardi, James fancied Lily at that age and they got married and murdered before 25, sheesh Jo isn't easy on young love, but wait Molly and Arthur dated back in school, speciffic ages aren't given but how is 15 or 16 that different from 14? Seems it can work out afterall. again, nice try...
CD

And my guess is that JKR isn't playing that any of those couples was in love before they started going out..!

Love,
Eyrún

[Fury]

I think to fancy someone is a crush... Harry fancied Cho... it was a crush...

Ginny fancied Harry... it was a crush.

Now, when it comes to True Love, this has yet to be seen... but I am sure we will see more of it in the future.

[GilyAnn]

Kia posted in her live journal (http://www.livejournal.com/users/no_remorse/) an old, but never seen before interview with JKR (http://www.livejournal.com/users/no_remorse/71409.html) interview with JKR, published in German newspaper Frankfurter Rundschau on the 07/08/2000.
Check it up, the bits Kia posted are really worthy of reading, especially this one (bold mine):


Q: Is Harry going to fall in love [in Book Four]?

I don't believe that fourteen-year-olds can truly fall in love. There are other words for that. He is going to discover girls. He likes a girl, but she doesn't like him in the same way. That was very important for me. I wanted him to grow in a realistic manner.


I think this doesn't look well for Herons, since R/Hr is supposed to start when they were 14 (book 4). Everyone is in love with the wrong person indeed! :rotfl:
On the other hand, when this doesn't warrant H/Hr, it doesn't look bad in the Harmony perspective, since according the current canon it looks as Hermione only realized her feelings in book 5 (15 > 14), and we don't expect Harry to fall for her until book 6 as the earliest (16>14).

See you,
esicardi
ETA: :clap: for Kia

You know it's kind of weird that if this interview was published in a newspaper in 2000 it wasn't never picked up by any of the news sites or the quick quote people. The answers don't even sound like JKR. While JKR have critiziced authors bashing them is an entirely different thing. Furthermore JKR seems to contradict herself because she herself has said that the trio was in love with the wrong people and obviously at 14,15 James was in love with Lily and it lasted until his death. Furthermore the interview talks about Harry not Ron and in book 4 he liked Cho and we know she liked him back.

ETA: Also and if I'm not mistaken the question was if Hermione liked Ron as more than a friend in GOF but at that stage Ron still didn't realize that something is going on. Like is not the same as Love.


Bye,
Gily Ann

[mrs_bombadil]

If you see the context (H/C), JKR is kind of dooming romances that started at that age. So no matter how you twist it, it doesn't look well for R/Hr, not to mention it looks bad for H/G as well. :p

No it doesn't really...I think, just like with the other "in love with" or "after" quotes she's talking about the dates/pairing people were actively seeking in some way...

Harry/Cho
Ron/Fleur
Krum/Hermione

All this does is prompt us to go in the same circles as before. JKR didn't say that anything that might have been stirring then is doomed. All she seems to be saying is that any pairings that might have moved forward would not have been permanent.

The fact the Ron and Hermione are not together yet is good news in light of this. :D

[Corbin Dallas]

No it doesn't really...I think, just like with the other "in love with" or "after" quotes she's talking about the dates/pairing people were actively seeking in some way...

Harry/Cho
Ron/Fleur
Krum/Hermione

All this does is prompt us to go in the same circles as before. JKR didn't say that anything that might have been stirring then is doomed. All she seems to be saying is that any pairings that might have moved forward would not have been permanent.

The fact the Ron and Hermione are not together yet is good news in light of this. :D
Harry and Ginny weren't paired either so it looks like clear skies for Chocolate :D
CD

[Fury]

No, with Ron and Hermione there isn't true love. That is because they are still in the exploring phase really... hmm, more like flirting. There is a lot of flirting between these two. Hermione pretty much telling Ron to ask her out... the kiss on the cheek. The perfume (some people don't think it is flirting, no it is not... but it is a sign).

[delemtri]

Harry and Ginny weren't paired either so it looks like clear skies for Chocolate :D
CD

But wait! If you totally misinterpret both Heron posts and the quote from the interview, things look bad for us! ****!

[Corbin Dallas]

But wait! If you totally misinterpret both Heron posts and the quote from the interview, things look bad for us! ****!
EGAD!!!! I better get my shipper goggles fixed then, how I could interpret it right, not trying hard I guess(obvious Sarcasm here folks ;) )
CD

[esicardi]

No it doesn't really...I think, just like with the other "in love with" or "after" quotes she's talking about the dates/pairing people were actively seeking in some way...

Harry/Cho
Ron/Fleur
Krum/Hermione

All this does is prompt us to go in the same circles as before. JKR didn't say that anything that might have been stirring then is doomed. All she seems to be saying is that any pairings that might have moved forward would not have been permanent.


Not really, since H/C were not together at 14.
Harry->Cho was still in the "stirring" face in book 4
Same with Ron/Fleur. They. did. not. date.
You can twist it all you want, but still it looks bad for R/Hr.


The fact the Ron and Hermione are not together yet is good news in light of this. :D
Not really. See above. If either of them had some kind of romantic feelings for the other in book 4, it wasn't something meant to be deep, according JKR's own words.

No, with Ron and Hermione there isn't true love.
I agree. They are not true love and never will. :D :p :eyebrows: :evil: :rotfl:

[delemtri]

I agree. They are not true love and never will. :D :p :eyebrows: :evil: :rotfl:

Nanny-nanny poo-poo! You're below your usual standard today. First you argue that JKR doesn't believe in true love at 14, then you claim that because they didn't have true love then they never will. By that logic *nobody* will ever have true love. That's depressing.

Or were you trying to say that because Herons claim Ron and Hermione had true love at 14 (we don't), they won't? That doesn't make any sense *either.* There's no causal relationship. Even if we did claim that, you'd only be undermining one of our sources of canon support - which you're *not* doing.

[Fury]

I agree. They are not true love and never will.

Maybe I should have said "No, with Ron and Hermione there isn't true love. Yet!" None of these characters that we are talking about are really in true love yet. They aren't at the right age, according to JK Rowling. As I said, Ron and Hermione are in the flirting stages, which means they are in the toddler stages of a romance... they don't even realize the other likes them. They are merely flirting.

[esicardi]

Nanny-nanny poo-poo! You're below your usual standard today. First you argue that JKR doesn't believe in true love at 14, then you claim that because they didn't have true love then they never will. By that logic *nobody* will ever have true love. That's depressing.
The depressing part is you can't understand a joke despite all the joke emoticons I added. You make me so sad. *sighs* :rolleyes:

[Adiah]

Personally, I feel that Harry spent way too much time in Goblet telling people Hermione wasn't his girlfriend to suddenly turn around and start dating her.

Also, Harry has no problem with Hermione going to the Yule Ball/writing to Krum. Ron does.

Also, when Ron finally made the observation that Hermione was, in fact, a girl, he also said, "You can go with one of us." There's only one of Hermione, and Ron knows that Harry needs a partner more urgently than he does. Why didn't he just say, "You can go with Harry."?

Hermione doesn't have any problem with Harry dating Cho and even gives him some advice on how to make the relationship work better. She reacted with total unconcern when she found out Harry and Cho had kissed.

There is also some evidence to suggest that Hermione might be a little jealous of Fleur in Goblet of Fire when Ron appears to be a bit infatuated with her (does she just not like Fleur because Fleur is a bit stuck up, or is this the reason?). She did accuse Ron of being the only one staring at Fleur even though he really wasn't.

Oh, and if Ron only "fancied" Hermione, wouldn't he spend his time thinking about how perfect she was rather than calling her a know-it-all all the time? When the affection a person feels for another is just a simple crush like that, generally that person sees their crush as unrealistically perfect instead of a real, flawed human being. When Harry liked Cho, he knew next to nothing about her other than the fact that she played Quidditch on the Ravenclaw team--Ron has been hanging out with Hermione for 5-6 years now, I think he knows her pretty well by now. Additionally, Ron didn't like Hermione immediately the first time he saw her as Harry did Cho. Remember what he said about her in PS/SS: "Whatever House I'm in, I hope she's not in it."

Anyway, the fact that Hermione and Ron argue a lot doesn't mean they are wrong for each other...there's a reason people compare two people who are arguing to "an old married couple." My parents argue a lot, and they've been together for over twenty years. There's no doubt that they love each other, regardless of their bickering. If Hermione and Ron's arguments were truly mean-spirited ones rather than friendly confrontation, why do they still hang out with each other?

This may be a stretch, but I can't help remembering Draco's comment in front of the Shrieking Shack in the PoA movie: "You two shopping for your new dream home?" Note that he said, "You two," suggesting Ron and Hermione would be living together. The directors have said before that there have always been more hints in the movies regarding relationships than in the books, and since JKR did have some influence on the movies, I'm sure she probably gave her permission for this. As I said, this may be a stretch, as it was of course Draco Malfoy who said it; still, that comment always stuck out to me.

Personally, I don't believe romance is that important in the Harry Potter books, but I just thought I'd give my two cents worth (or more :blush:) on this subject.

[Corbin Dallas]

Not really, since H/C were not together at 14.
Harry->Cho was still in the "stirring" face in book 4
Same with Ron/Fleur. They. did. not. date.
You can twist it all you want, but still it looks bad for R/Hr.


Not really. See above. If either of them had some kind of romantic feelings for the other in book 4, it wasn't something meant to be deep, according JKR's own words.
I just tried to verify that article Esicardi but it's not in the archives, can you get some from Kia? If not from her then anywhere would be nice, another site with a link or mention of it, also isn't this the same publication from Germany that claimed Harry would fall in love with a girl he met at King's Cross in his first Year and it wasn't Hermione? Some kind of link would be helpful here, thanx... oh and no surprise but I agree with Mrs B., sorry...
CD

[delemtri]

The depressing part is you can't understand a joke despite all the joke emoticons I added. You make me so sad. *sighs* :rolleyes:

So the fact that you didn't respond to my actual rebuttal means I'm right, yes?

I just tried to verify that article Esicardi but it's not in the archives, can you get some from Kia? If not from her then anywhere would be nice, another site with a link or mention of it, also isn't this the same publication from Germany that claimed Harry would fall in love with a girl he met at King's Cross in his first Year and it wasn't Hermione? Some kind of link would be helpful here, thanx... oh and no surprise but I agree with Mrs B., sorry...
CD

Yeah I was just thinking about this too. Never-before-seen interview from 2000? Hum...

[JordanL]

-It's interesting how Ron mocks Umbridge, after she was brought back from the Centaurs, and Hermione and Ginny laugh (Hermione is still recovering from the comment when she speaks again). She didn't chastise Ron, like she normally would (Lockhart, Snape, Grubbly Plank, Quirrell, and maybe a few more), she laughs at his joke.

On this one, I don't find it odd at all. It was Hermione that tossed Umbridge to the Centaurs, I somehow doubt she would have any love for Umbridge ever at the "this isn't proper" level.

[esicardi]

I just tried to verify that article Esicardi but it's not in the archives, can you get some from Kia? If not from her then anywhere would be nice, another site with a link or mention of it, also isn't this the same publication from Germany that claimed Harry would fall in love with a girl he met at King's Cross in his first Year and it wasn't Hermione? Some kind of link would be helpful here, thanx... oh and no surprise but I agree with Mrs B., sorry...
CD

The interview isn't in the web. It is published in a book that Kia linked at Amazon.com in her LJ. See the links in her journal (I linked her journal in my post). Also you'll see other bits of the interview.

[Fury]

Personally, I feel that Harry spent way too much time in Goblet telling people Hermione wasn't his girlfriend to suddenly turn around and start dating her.

Also, Harry has no problem with Hermione going to the Yule Ball/writing to Krum. Ron does.

Also, when Ron finally made the observation that Hermione was, in fact, a girl, he also said, "You can go with one of us." There's only one of Hermione, and Ron knows that Harry needs a partner more urgently than he does. Why didn't he just say, "You can go with Harry."?

Hermione doesn't have any problem with Harry dating Cho and even gives him some advice on how to make the relationship work better. She reacted with total unconcern when she found out Harry and Cho had kissed.

There is also some evidence to suggest that Hermione might be a little jealous of Fleur in Goblet of Fire when Ron appears to be a bit infatuated with her (does she just not like Fleur because Fleur is a bit stuck up, or is this the reason?). She did accuse Ron of being the only one staring at Fleur even though he really wasn't.

Oh, and if Ron only "fancied" Hermione, wouldn't he spend his time thinking about how perfect she was rather than calling her a know-it-all all the time? When the affection a person feels for another is just a simple crush like that, generally that person sees their crush as unrealistically perfect instead of a real, flawed human being. When Harry liked Cho, he knew next to nothing about her other than the fact that she played Quidditch on the Ravenclaw team--Ron has been hanging out with Hermione for 5-6 years now, I think he knows her pretty well by now. Additionally, Ron didn't like Hermione immediately the first time he saw her as Harry did Cho. Remember what he said about her in PS/SS: "Whatever House I'm in, I hope she's not in it."

Anyway, the fact that Hermione and Ron argue a lot doesn't mean they are wrong for each other...there's a reason people compare two people who are arguing to "an old married couple." My parents argue a lot, and they've been together for over twenty years. There's no doubt that they love each other, regardless of their bickering. If Hermione and Ron's arguments were truly mean-spirited ones rather than friendly confrontation, why do they still hang out with each other?

This may be a stretch, but I can't help remembering Draco's comment in front of the Shrieking Shack in the PoA movie: "You two shopping for your new dream home?" Note that he said, "You two," suggesting Ron and Hermione would be living together. The directors have said before that there have always been more hints in the movies regarding relationships than in the books, and since JKR did have some influence on the movies, I'm sure she probably gave her permission for this. As I said, this may be a stretch, as it was of course Draco Malfoy who said it; still, that comment always stuck out to me.

Personally, I don't believe romance is that important in the Harry Potter books, but I just thought I'd give my two cents worth (or more :blush:) on this subject.

Excelent Post... :clap:

"You two shopping for your new dream home?" Note that he said, "You two," suggesting Ron and Hermione would be living together.

I really did love that quote in the movie.. and I agree they are foreshadowing...

[JordanL]

Hey Esicardi, who'd Harry ask to the Ball? Cho and wasn't she pinning over Cedric and not Harry in Goblet? Oh and wasn't it clear that Harry was interested in Cho? Thanx for the quote, it actually rather puts some large wholes in the Harmony ship ;)
CD

Okay, this made no sense at all. Did you even read the quote?

[esicardi]

So the fact that you didn't respond to my actual rebuttal means I'm right, yes?


What rebuttal?? :huh:
I have not time to answer all the posts in this thread, and it is really not worthy since many of them repeat what other people already said.


Yeah I was just thinking about this too. Never-before-seen interview from 2000? Hum...
Buy the book at Amazon.com, in case you are interested.

[Laufa]

I'm still trying to see how a quote about Harry and Hermione not dating, which must have been in future tense (wether it only went for one book or the whole series) doesn't damage Harmony, while a quote about Harry not being in love at 14 is supposed to make things look bad for the Herons who never claim that Ron and Hermione even are in love?

And no, crushing on someone is one-sided, and seldomly something comes out of it. It is with someone you're not close too; don't know very well.

Fancying someone usually happens within a circle of friends (I really fancy my best friend, but he thinks we should stay platonic).
There is a big, big, gap between crushing and being in love, and Ron and Hermione are in that gap. However, if they do get together, they may fall in love.

Love,
Eyrún

[mrs_bombadil]

Not really, since H/C were not together at 14.
Harry->Cho was still in the "stirring" face in book 4
Same with Ron/Fleur. They. did. not. date.
You can twist it all you want, but still it looks bad for R/Hr.


I'm not twisting anything. I don't see how it can be bad for anybody specifically without speculation about what she means exactly. My speculation is based on other similar quotes and the rest of the quotes in general. How can a quote (if it's even real) that never even mentions R/Hr be bad for heron in harmony's eyes but lots of other quotes that do specifically mention H/Hr in a negative way NOT be bad for harmony? It looks to me like it's somebody else grooving along to Chubby Checker.

[delemtri]

What rebuttal?? :huh:
I have not time to answer all the posts in this thread, and it is really not worthy since many of them repeat what other people already said.

It's funny how you're the one who understands neither what Heron says nor what JKR may have said in the interview, and yet I'm the one who's not worth your time. Cute.

[esicardi]

I'm still trying to see how a quote about Harry and Hermione not dating, which must have been in future tense (wether it only went for one book or the whole series) doesn't damage Harmony, while a quote about Harry not being in love at 14 is supposed to make things look bad for the Herons who never claim that Ron and Hermione even are in love?

This are two separate issues, why do you mix them? :huh:
Also the "platonic" quote doesn't say Harry and Hermione won't ever have a date, or nothing of this sort. It is written in present tense, so it could mean inmediate future, but it doesn't need to apply forever.
Are you aware that absense of H/Hr doesn't warrant R/Hr?


And no, crushing on someone is one-sided, and seldomly something comes out of it. It is with someone you're not close too; don't know very well.

Fancying someone usually happens within a circle of friends (I really fancy my best friend, but he thinks we should stay platonic).
There is a big, big, gap between crushing and being in love, and Ron and Hermione are in that gap. However, if they do get together, they may fall in love.

Sorry but "fall in love" is different to loving someone. "Fall in love" refers to the intial "shock", meanwhile "loving" someone is a not so shocking but more deep and permanent feeling that happens when you become a couple.
You can twist the meaning of the quote all you want, but it still will look bad for R/Hr.

[delemtri]

Sorry but "fall in love" is different to loving someone. "Fall in love" refers to the intial "shock", meanwhile "loving" someone is a not so shocking but more deep and permanent feeling that happens when you become a couple.
You can twist the meaning of the quote all you want, but it still will look bad for R/Hr.

No, it won't. Nobody from R/H thinks they were in love in GOF; in fact, this is essential to our survival, as JKR said everybody was in love with the wrong person during that book.

[esicardi]

It's funny how you're the one who understands neither what Heron says nor what JKR may have said in the interview, and yet I'm the one who's not worth your time. Cute.

It's funny how arrogant and pedantic you are despite the little and not substantial content of your posts, even for a Heron standard.

[delemtri]

It's funny how arrogant and pedantic you are despite the little and not substantial content of your posts, even for a Heron standard.

So you're not arguing that you don't understand the Heron position or the interview quote? I'm okay with being insulted; I'm not going to run and report you.

[JordanL]

esicardi you made a point and it was a good one, but lets not start the labelling and such. I don't have much love for delemtri's methods of arguing, but I wouldn't call him arrogant and pedantric.

[Melcb98]

It's funny how arrogant and pedantic you are despite the little and not substantial content of your posts, even for a Heron standard.
Wow, Esicardi- as rude and inapproprate, as ever. Why post here if you don't like people debating with your posts? I don't even think you read what other have to say, because I read your original quote, and thought that was a very good thing for Heron, because it discredits what some Harmonians believe. Yet, you won't listen to all the posts trying to explain that to you- all of us are twisting? I don't think so.

[delemtri]

esicardi you made a point and it was a good one, but lets not start the labelling and such. I don't have much love for delemtri's methods of arguing, but I wouldn't call him arrogant and pedantric.

Thank you! I do like to improve myself, so if you had any specific suggestions (for my methods of arguing) feel free to send an owl.

[JordanL]

Yet, you won't listen to all the posts trying to explain that to you- all of us are twisting? I don't think so.

I must have missed this. Would you midn runing me through the cliff notes of this arguement?

[Laufa]

This are two separate issues, why do you mix them? :huh:
Also the "platonic" quote doesn't say Harry and Hermione won't ever have a date, or nothing of this sort. It is written in present tense, so it could mean inmediate future, but it doesn't need to apply forever.
Are you aware that absense of H/Hr doesn't warrant R/Hr?

I'm sorry, but 'do' could mean forever and ever. That's my point.

Sorry but "fall in love" is different to loving someone. "Fall in love" refers to the intial "shock", meanwhile "loving" someone is a not so shocking but more deep and permanent feeling that happens when you become a couple.
You can twist the meaning of the quote all you want, but it still will look bad for R/Hr.

No? That's just wrong. You're in a relationship and you gradually fall in love with someone. It can happen suddenly (love at first sight) but nobody is even saying that Ron and Hermione are in love, so what's you're point?

And I don't think I'm the one here twisting quotes..

Love,
Eyrún

[JordanL]

Thank you! I do like to improve myself, so if you had any specific suggestions (for my methods of arguing) feel free to send an owl.

I really want to start a thread just one methods of constructin an arguement. But alas, I fear no one would respond.

[esicardi]

esicardi you made a point and it was a good one, but lets not start the labelling and such. I don't have much love for delemtri's methods of arguing, but I wouldn't call him arrogant and pedantric.

He is when he's constantly insulting me, instead of arguing, and using a condescendent tone all the time.

To quote an insult to my understanding skills:


It's funny how you're the one who understands neither what Heron says nor what JKR may have said in the interview, and yet I'm the one who's not worth your time. Cute.



Here an insult to my intelligence again.

Nanny-nanny poo-poo! You're below your usual standard today. First you argue that JKR doesn't believe in true love at 14, then you claim that because they didn't have true love then they never will. By that logic *nobody* will ever have true love. That's depressing.


I think I am not being rude but accurate to describe the posts above as pedantic and arrogant.

[delemtri]

I really want to start a thread just one methods of constructin an arguement. But alas, I fear no one would respond.

I'm going to begin doing a bit better lately now I have access to the books again (family's copy stayed at home with the family, but they gave me a brand-new set of all five for Chanukah).

[Melcb98]

I must have missed this. Would you midn runing me through the cliff notes of this arguement?
What cliff notes? This conversation hads only been going on for about 3 pages, not that long. But, she did say:

So no matter how you twist it, it doesn't look well for R/Hr, not to mention it looks bad for H/G as well.

[delemtri]

To quote an insult to my understanding skills:

Yet you never disputed that you had misunderstood either and never responded to Heron's characterizations of *our own arguments.*

ETA: And, gosh, how is "you misunderstood this" an insult to your understanding skills? If you're actually claiming Heron supports something we don't, you're obviously misunderstanding *somewhere,* yes?

Here an insult to my intelligence again.

And yet again you haven't argued the content of the post, you've only felt offended - for no good reason, I might add. I'm also not sure how "below your usual standard" is an insult.

[JordanL]

He is when he's constantly insulting me, instead of arguing, and using a condescendent tone all the time.

You see, when they do that, tell them they committed an ad hominem (http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/attack.php) fallacy, and inform that you ignor all personal attacks, and that you consider any post which has one in its entirity a personal attack.

In other words, if they commit a fallacy, you ignor the entire post, whether or not their arguement was based on the fallacy comitted.