Who will fall in love with whom? v40

[delemtri]

You see, when they do that, tell them they committed an ad hominem (http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/attack.php) fallacy, and inform that you ignor all personal attacks, and that you consider any post which has one in its entirity a personal attack.

In other words, if they commit a fallacy, you ignor the entire post, whether or not their arguement was based on the fallacy comitted.

The problem here is that I didn't commit an ad hominem. I said esicardi misunderstood something when she obviously did. What she misunderstood was Heron's own stance and she refused to listen when we all tried to explain what our actual stance was.

[esicardi]

Laufa, are you aware that even if H/Hr doesn't happen it doesn't warrant R/Hr?
Bringing the platonic quote doesn't contradict the fact that the quote doesn't look well for R/Hr.
Also "fall in love" is not the same than learning to love someone in a relationship.
To quote Merriam Webster on line, to fall is "to pass suddenly and passively into a state of body or mind or a new state or condition" <fall asleep> <fall in love>.
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=fall&x=0&y=0

[GilyAnn]

So no matter how you twist it, it doesn't look well for R/Hr, not to mention it looks bad for H/G as well.

:rotfl: It doesn't look bad for anyone! :whistle: This interview talks about Harry liking a girl on book 4 and she didn't like him back. Which never happen because Cho actually did like Harry he just asked her too late. If it ever sunk a ship it's Harmony who seem to claim that Krum saw something between H/Hr in GoF. Nowhere in there talks about either R/Hr they talk about Harry.

Gily Ann

[JordanL]

What cliff notes? This conversation hads only been going on for about 3 pages, not that long. But, she did say:

I see. I can see how you guys took up that vein of arguement, but I think it would help if you admitted that there is a signifigant possibility in this particular case, (because from the phrasing it appears there is), that there is merit to the arguement. Even if true, I somehow doubt it destroys the entire arguement of Herons.

The problem here is that I didn't commit an ad hominem. I said esicardi misunderstood something when she obviously did. What she misunderstood was Heron's own stance and she refused to listen when we all tried to explain what our actual stance was.

Ah, but see that's another, different logical fallacy. I used ad hominem as an example. The fallacy comitted there is "Confusing the Arguement and the Subject". Understanding the Heron point of view is a not prerequisite to being correct.

[delemtri]

Ah, but see that's another, different logical fallacy. I used ad hominem as an example. The fallacy comitted there is "Confusing the Arguement and the Subject". Understanding the Heron point of view is a not prerequisite to being correct.

Yes it is - if you read esicardi's post, she was asserting that Heron had a particular point of view and that the interview disputed this point of view. She can't be correct if we don't actually hold that point of view.

[Laufa]

Laufa, are you aware that even if H/Hr doesn't happen it doesn't warrant R/Hr?
Bringing the platonic quote doesn't contradict the fact that the quote doesn't look well for R/Hr.

The platonic quote is a very bad quote for Harmony. This quote does nothing for Heron, since it doesn't even involve the Hermione or Ron, and no one here has stated that they are in love. OK?


Also "fall in love" is not the same than learning to love someone in a relationship.
To quote Merriam Webster on line, to fall is "to pass suddenly and passively into a state of body or mind or a new state or condition" <fall asleep> <fall in love>.
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=fall&x=0&y=0

'FALL IN LOVE'

fall in love v : begin to experience feelings of love towards; "She fell in love with her former student"


Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University

fall in love

Become enamored. This expression may be used either literally, as in John and Mary fell in love on their first date, or hyperbolically, as in I fell in love with that antique chest. [First half of 1500s]



Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of Idioms by Christine Ammer.
Copyright © 1997 by The Christine Ammer 1992 Trust. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company.

Both from dictionary.com

Love,
Eyrún

[Adiah]

To quote Merriam Webster on line, to fall is "to pass suddenly and passively into a state of body or mind or a new state or condition" <fall asleep> <fall in love>.
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=fall&x=0&y=0

People don't "fall in love" overnight. It takes time for true love to develop (obviously, I don't believe in love at first sight).

[JordanL]

Yes it is - if you read esicardi's post, she was asserting that Heron had a particular point of view and that the interview disputed this point of view. She can't be correct if we don't actually hold that point of view.

But whether or not you hold that point of view does not mean that the point of view presented is valid or invalid. Just because Herons do or don't subscribe to a POV doesn't mean that its an angle from which the conclusion is apparent.

[delemtri]

But whether or not you hold that point of view does not mean that the point of view presented is valid or invalid. Just because Herons do or don't subscribe to a POV doesn't mean that its an angle from which the conclusion is apparent.

You're missing my point. What esicardi did was to claim Heron held a point of view and then to use a quote to dispute that point. This is completely irrelevant to the shipping argument if Heron does not hold that viewpoint. There's another term in argumentation which this fits - "straw man."

[Corbin Dallas]

Scholastic Online Chat Febuary 3, 2000
Is Harry Potter ever going to fall in love with Hermione or is he going to fall in love with Ginny Weasley?
In Book IV Harry does decide he likes a girl, but it's not Hermione or Ginny. However, he's only 14, so there's plenty of time for him to change his mind. ;-)
http://www.mugglenet.com/scholchat1.shtml

Transcript of Yahooligans! Chat with J.K. Rowling October 20, 2000
sammyohyeah asks: Is it just me, or was something going on between Ron and Hermione during the last half of GOF? I love your books, btw, and two of them I've read stright through cover to cover in under 24 hours.
jkrowling_bn: well done on the reading speed!
jkrowling_bn: yes, something's 'going on'...
jkrowling_bn: but Ron doesn't realise it yet...
jkrowling_bn: typical boy
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2000/1000-yahooligans.html

BBC "Red Nose Day" Online Chat Transcript March 12, 2001
Does Hermione like Ron as more than a friend?
The answer to that is in Goblet of Fire!
http://www.mugglenet.com/bbcchat1.shtml



Okay I bolded all the bits and Jo never says "Loves" in her replies and whan someones asks using Love, she replies with "he likes", so Jo isn't being "Tricksy" there Esicardi and to my knolledge, Hermione and Ron shippers have said that they are falling for each other but as was pointed out earlier, you can fancy, crush or like more than a friend and grow to Love them later so again your quote only reinforces what Jo has said all along and here in this quote, she's only really addressing Harry, but that's all she was asked about, lot of snips in that journal, too bad about that copyright thing...
CD
PS
Esicardi, why do you think Jo is tricksy, seriously? Have you read the transcripts of some of her non shippy questions, she really doesn't come off as tricksy at all, but that is my personal opinion...

[Adiah]

:rotfl: It doesn't look bad for anyone! :whistle: This interview talks about Harry liking a girl on book 4 and she didn't like him back.

Actually, I think the interview said Harry liked a girl in book 4 but she didn't like him in the same way.

[JordanL]

You're missing my point. What esicardi did was to claim Heron held a point of view and then to use a quote to dispute that point. This is completely irrelevant to the shipping argument if Heron does not hold that viewpoint. There's another term in argumentation which this fits - "straw man."

I'm not missing your point, I'm saying that while its annoying to be misrepresented, it doesn't affect the validatiy of an arguement.

Yes, its a form of straw man, but not a form that depends on the validity of the characterization to be correct. Ad Logicam: and fallicious arguement may be correct by accident.

[delemtri]

I'm not missing your point, I'm saying that while its annoying to be misrepresented, it doesn't affect the validatiy of an arguement.

Yes, its a form of straw man, but not a form that depends on the validity of the characterization to be correct. Ad Logicam: and fallicious arguement may be correct by accident.

Her argument may be correct. It's just not *relevant.* It doesn't hurt Heron that a quote disputes a view that we don't hold. She's not actually arguing against us, she's arguing against the straw man. It's not about whether it's annoying to be misrepresented - in fact, we weren't annoyed at the beginning; we tried in earnest to explain why her characterization was incorrect.

[JordanL]

Esicardi, why do you think Jo is tricksy, seriously?

Trying to demean another point of view by making allagories to an insane character in a well known literrary work is not the way to win an arguement, its a way for me to disrespect your point of view rather quickly.

[Melcb98]

I see. I can see how you guys took up that vein of arguement, but I think it would help if you admitted that there is a signifigant possibility in this particular case, (because from the phrasing it appears there is), that there is merit to the arguement. Even if true, I somehow doubt it destroys the entire arguement of Herons.

Actually, no. This quote really goes to help Heron. Esicardi's original post was this:

Q: Is Harry going to fall in love [in Book Four]?

I don't believe that fourteen-year-olds can truly fall in love. There are other words for that. He is going to discover girls. He likes a girl, but she doesn't like him in the same way. That was very important for me. I wanted him to grow in a realistic manner.


I think this doesn't look well for Herons, since R/Hr is supposed to start when they were 14 (book 4). Everyone is in love with the wrong person indeed!

Now, first of, I don't even understand why Esicardi believes it is not good for Heron. When JKR said that "everyone is in love with the wrong person." Heron's have always maintained that "in love" was an abstract sentiment. That JKR did not really mean "in love," that is was who the kids liked, who their "partners," in the books were.
Herons believe that JKR was saying H/C, R/F, and H/K were the wrong people.
Now, personally, I think this goes quite well with JKR's quote that 14 year olds can't truley fall in love. Because it fits with the view we have been arguing.

Harmonians, for the most part, believe that the "in love," really meant "in love"- and that this does not look good for R/H. Because they are the wrong people. Heron's have argued that Ron and Hermione are not "in love," in GOF.

[JordanL]

Her argument may be correct. It's just not *relevant.* It doesn't hurt Heron that a quote disputes a view that we don't hold.

Ah, we were talking abotu two different things then. No it doesn't hurt Heron, but it has the potential to hurt the end result of Heron's claims.

[delemtri]

Esicardi, why do you think Jo is tricksy, seriously? Have you read the transcripts of some of her non shippy questions, she really doesn't come off as tricksy at all, but that is my personal opinion...

This is a very good point. I'm curious to hear more comments (from either side) on comparisons of the interpretations of ship quotes vs. plot clues.

ETA: Also, JordanL, tricksy is a word which I believe Harmonians have themselves used to describe JKR.

Ah, we were talking abotu two different things then. No it doesn't hurt Heron, but it has the potential to hurt the end result of Heron's claims.

Yeah, we were. :) I suppose it does have that potential, but that's not the way esicardi was using it. To do this she'd have to use it to argue for H/H or against R/H instead of against the Heron ship.

[JordanL]

Heron's have argued that Ron and Hermione are not "in love," in GOF.

But Herons do not know this, they argue it because it supports their end result, and its plausible because of the phrasing that either could be true, which would appear to be reinforced by the secodn quote presented.

[Corbin Dallas]

How?
JKR is saying that 14 years old don't fall in love. So Cho is wrong for Harry, as we already knew. But also we can apply this to R/Hr, and when together to the quote that says that the answer about Hermione liking Ron more than a friend is in GoF, it is pretty damaging to your ship. Also is an example of JKR being tricky. She says Cho didn't like Harry back, but that's not true, as we saw in book 5. In book 4 she liked Cedric better, but she liked Harry as well (remember Cho blushing when Harry asked her?).
JordanL, i was referring back to this and as I've said before I can't speel or type all that well, get me ;), also there's history there too
CD
PS
it also occurs to me that the current trend in the thread is not really going anywhere other than a circle, let's move on, the only thinthat quote does is reinforce what Jo has said already...

[delemtri]

But Herons do not know this, they argue it because it supports their end result, and its plausible because of the phrasing that either could be true, which would appear to be reinforced by the secodn quote presented.

The fact that JKR used "in love" in the other quote is one of the things that makes me skeptical about this new quote.

[JordanL]

This is a very good point. I'm curious to hear more comments (from either side) on comparisons of the interpretations of ship quotes vs. plot clues.

ETA: Also, JordanL, tricksy is a word which I believe Harmonians have themselves used to describe JKR.

The plot clues usually seem to be rather reserved, and roundabout from what I see. Not exactly "tricksy", but certainly open for interpretation.

And I feel very bad for a group that would characterize their own beliefs in such a way. It's kind of like how I cry on the inside when a girl tells a guy "Good night sweet prince" when they part. So... wrong....

Yeah, we were. :) I suppose it does have that potential, but that's not the way esicardi was using it. To do this she'd have to use it to argue for H/H or against R/H instead of against the Heron ship.

Which is what I thought we were doing.... ack! I'm so confused!

[delemtri]

Which is what I thought we were doing.... ack! I'm so confused!

Well, I *believe* what esicardi first said was "this looks bad for R/H" and then when asked why, she said "because Heron is always saying things like such and such."

[Moonstruck]

Scholastic Online Chat Febuary 3, 2000

http://www.mugglenet.com/scholchat1.shtml

Transcript of Yahooligans! Chat with J.K. Rowling October 20, 2000

http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2000/1000-yahooligans.html

BBC "Red Nose Day" Online Chat Transcript March 12, 2001

http://www.mugglenet.com/bbcchat1.shtml



Okay I bolded all the bits and Jo never says "Loves" in her replies and whan someones asks using Love, she replies with "he likes", so Jo isn't being "Tricksy" there Esicardi

But according to the interview Esicardi provided, JK said she believes 14 year olds don't fall in love and that Harry likes a girl. And we all know what happened to that girl in OOTP.

and to my knolledge, Hermione and Ron shippers have said that they are falling for each other but as was pointed out earlier, you can fancy, crush or like more than a friend and grow to Love them later so again your quote only reinforces what Jo has said all along and here in this quote,

So what about Hermione's jealously or Ron's jealously? What about Hermione's call for Ron to ask her out? What about JK's quote of the answer to Hermione liking Ron more than a friend was in GOF?

she's only really addressing Harry, but that's all she was asked about, lot of snips in that journal, too bad about that copyright thing...

She said fourteen years olds. Not a fourteen year old.

[JordanL]

Well, I *believe* what esicardi first said was "this looks bad for R/H" and then when asked why, she said "because Heron is always saying things like such and such."

I really should have read that entire exchange. Definately not a good position to take.

[Melcb98]

But Herons do not know this, they argue it because it supports their end result, and its plausible because of the phrasing that either could be true, which would appear to be reinforced by the secodn quote presented.
:rotfl: Are you trying to tell me Harmonians have all the answers, no. I am telling you how the arguments have gone for the past 24 threads in which I have been here. Now, this new quote has popped up (and Esicardi just happens to be the only one to have ever seen it) and it may support what Heron's have been saying. What it does not do, is make things look bad for Hr/R, as some have claimed.

[JordanL]

:rotfl: Are you trying to tell me Harmonians have all the answers, no. I am telling you how the arguments have gone for the past 24 threads in which I have been here. Now, this new quote has popped up (and Esicardi just happens to be the only one to have ever seen it) and it may support what Heron's have been saying. What it does not do, is make things look bad for Hr/R, as some have claimed.

No, I was saying that neither side has any of the answers, thus you cannot argue the conclusions based on either sides assumptions.

[delemtri]

But according to the interview Esicardi provided, JK said she believes 14 year olds don't fall in love and that Harry likes a girl. And we all know what happened to that girl in OOTP.

Not too much; I had never really liked her. But I do remember there being a bit of an H/C ship before OOTP... back in the day... They got replaced by H/L, I guess. Funny how different the two girls are, eh?

So what about Hermione's jealously or Ron's jealously? What about Hermione's call for Ron to ask her out? What about JK's quote of the answer to Hermione liking Ron more than a friend was in GOF?

So what are you trying to say? They were in love, but they can't be in love, so they can't be a couple? I'm *confused.*

She said fourteen years olds. Not a fourteen year old.

Yeah, but then she said everybody was in love with the wrong person in a different interview. It's confusing.

[Krumpet]

"I don't believe that fourteen-year-olds can truly fall in love. There are other words for that. He is going to discover girls. He likes a girl, but she doesn't like him in the same way. That was very important for me. I wanted him to grow in a realistic manner."

Okay if this quote is real (which being that this is the first time it has been brought to light is suspect) I really don't see how this is a bad thing for the Heron. Look at the words Jo has used to describe the R/H relationship before she's said… "There's something going on," and that "there's tension". She hasn't said, nor have most Herons, that this means Hermione is IN LOVE with Ron, not that Ron is IN LOVE with Hermione, but that there is "tension" and romantic feelings bubbling under the surface. On her website the question is "Does Hermione Love Ron or Harry" present tense not past. So perhaps she thinks sixteen years olds can fall "in love".

The point? By and large most Herons don't argue that Hermione was head over heels in love with Ron in GoF, or that Ron was head over heels in love with Hermione in GoF. What they do argue is that an interest was formed, and that a spark hit some romantic timber.

[delemtri]

Just thought I'd mention - last night my roommate asked me what my Chanukah present had been (I told him my parents had been sending one) and I showed him the set of the five books. He hasn't read OOTP, so he asked me, "Is Ron sleeping with Hermione yet?"

Okay, not entirely appropriate, but I thought I'd share anyway.

[Corbin Dallas]

So you canonly be jealous if you love someone? Harry was jealous of Cedric and he only liked Cho, Moonstruck, again, is there love at 14, pry not, is there interest in dating, snogging and such pry. Does all this equal love, guess that's up to you to decide. For me seeing them act the way they do seems more like crushing, that is their hormones kicking in, if they date when they are 17(Ron and Hermione) as I think they will, then yes, I see them being able to fall in love. Again if you don't think it can happen, explain Lily and James, Molly and Arthur, get me ;)
CD
PS
No, I was saying that neither side has any of the answers, thus you cannot argue the conclusions based on either sides assumptions.
My only thing is that Jo thinks we should know where this is going by now and as I accept her word I see these scenarios, Harry and Hermione, Hermione and Ron or none of them date each other. For me, I've come to Ron and Hermione but I will speak for me only...

[FlyingPhoenix]

I've never heard of jung either and according to those who know it wouldn't matter if JK has either, I mean the idea that she plotted out the story, wrote an outline and has said she would stick by it is inconsequential because unconciously she's writing to Jung's form, oh and this is known because Jo has researched and borrowed from mythology. I have no idea how this works and basically would rather stick to the canon but hey, if you like then go for it, oh just like to point out that because there are some similarities to what Jo is doing and what Jung says doesn't mean that Jung applies, or a better way to explain is it is all weasels are muesaltides but not all muesaltides are weasels...

Uhm, I doubt the argument is JKR did plot it out after Jung who is by the way one of those few famous psychologist of the 20th century. It doesn't matter if JKR wrote by intention after Jung her characters but what matters is that you can interpret her characters after Jung.
After all JKR too got a subconscious. In fact one can even at hands of her writing say what kind of person, character JKR is.

Its a common way to interpret characters in books if one use such theories by psychologist. I could swear that I read somewhere once how Bertolt Brecht's plays were done with Freud. Its really nothing new so I'm bit supprised that this essay is put down that easily though its a very fair way to look at this HP-Characters

[Melcb98]

No, I was saying that neither side has any of the answers, thus you cannot argue the conclusions based on either sides assumptions.
Assumptions is all we have, and that is what we argue by, Assumptions based on canon. We have the material that we have. And, obvioulsy, none of us have all the answers, since the last two books have not been released. Yet, this is what we do. Interpretation is the key to everything. Why is it that I never really see you commenting on the canon and the interpretations, and only on how people debate? Or that could just be me noticing only your posts that do this, but please explain.

[JordanL]

Just thought I'd mention - last night my roommate asked me what my Chanukah present had been (I told him my parents had been sending one) and I showed him the set of the five books. He hasn't read OOTP, so he asked me, "Is Ron sleeping with Hermione yet?"

Okay, not entirely appropriate, but I thought I'd share anyway.

:lol:

See, this is the major problem I have with R/H... too predictable.

[Laufa]

But according to the interview Esicardi provided, JK said she believes 14 year olds don't fall in love and that Harry likes a girl. And we all know what happened to that girl in OOTP.

Yes, we do. That's because he got to know her better and realized that she wasn't over her boyfriends death.
However, nothing is new to Ron about Hermione and vice versa. They know each others traits and faults and they like each other despite those faults.

So what about Hermione's jealously or Ron's jealously? What about Hermione's call for Ron to ask her out? What about JK's quote of the answer to Hermione liking Ron more than a friend was in GOF?

They key is in liking. Not loving. Fancying, not loving. Even crushing (though I do think it's more than that) not love. Not now.

She said fourteen years olds. Not a fourteen year old.

And no one here is saying 14 year olds are in love. However they fancy each other very much.

Love,
Eyrún

[JordanL]

Assumptions is all we have, and that is what we argue by, Assumptions based on canon. We have the material that we have. And, obvioulsy, none of us have all the answers, since the last two books have not been released. Yet, this is what we do. Interpretation is the key to everything. Why is it that I never really see you commenting on the canon and the interpretations, and only on how people debate? Or that could just be me noticing only your posts that do this, but please explain.

Actually, you have explained exactly why I don't ship.

And I usually comment on the connon through literrary techniques, which I don't quote pages for, because such things don't happen on a single page, they happen on all of them. I don't usually argue based on the characters themselves, as they are merely tools of the author.

[Canon Thumper]

Hello everyone, I'm new to the thread.

Harmonians, for the most part, believe that the "in love," really meant "in love"- and that this does not look good for R/H. Because they are the wrong people. Heron's have argued that Ron and Hermione are not "in love," in GOF.

Actually, from what I've observed in these "love" topics, I've seen most R/Hr's argue that Ron has deep feelings for Hermione while the H/Hr's say his feelings are superficial. So if the Heron's maintain that Ron deeply loves/likes Hermione, then both JKR quotes sink that ship. It also sinks H/G as Ginny still liked Harry in GoF. This goes for H/C, Hr/Kr, R/F. Even N/Hr would be sunk as there's a chance Neville liked Hermione since he asked her to the ball. The only ship left unaffected by these quotes is H/Hr.

[delemtri]

:lol:

See, this is the major problem I have with R/H... too predictable.

I don't love either of them to death (as many here do) so I'm fine with this. They're often pretty predictable characters - Harry always knows how they're going to react to things.

[esicardi]

I really should have read that entire exchange. Definately not a good position to take.

Actually my point isn't based in what Herons say (since they change it all the time to fit their interesting and dodging quotes as the one I posted and the "wrong people" one) but in what JKR said: "The answer to whether Hermione likes Ron more than a friend is in GoF" (paraphrasing) and the "something's going on" quote. Also I said the quote reinforces the "wrong people" quote meaning, and the context (H/C) seems to doom any feelings that arose at 14. Also I noticed that JKR was not very accurate, since the quote stated "Cho didn't like Harry the same way" (paraphrasing), what isn't exactly like that, given the info we have from OotP (Cho liked Cedric better, but Harry wasn't indifferent to her either, even in GoF, given her blush when Harry asked her to the Ball in GoF).

[Moonstruck]

So you canonly be jealous if you love someone? Harry was jealous of Cedric and he only liked Cho, Moonstruck, again, is there love at 14, pry not, is there interest in dating, snogging and such pry. Does all this equal love, guess that's up to you to decide. For me seeing them act the way they do seems more like crushing, that is their hormones kicking in, if they date when they are 17(Ron and Hermione) as I think they will, then yes, I see them being able to fall in love. Again if you don't think it can happen, explain Lily and James, Molly and Arthur, get me ;)
CD

My point is that Heron often points to those things to support Hermione liking Ron in GOF (or vice versa). What happens to those arguements now that you say that Hermione and Ron did not like each other in GOF, but they are going to in later books?

[JordanL]

Actually, from what I've observed in these "love" topics, I've seen most R/Hr's argue that Ron has deep feelings for Hermione while the H/Hr's say his feelings are superficial. So if the Heron's maintain that Ron deeply loves/likes Hermione, then both JKR quotes sink that ship. It also sinks H/G as Ginny still liked Harry in GoF. This goes for H/C, Hr/Kr, R/F. Even N/Hr would be sunk as there's a chance Neville liked Hermione since he asked her to the ball. The only ship left unaffected by these quotes is H/Hr.

That's stretching it a bit far. Infatuation can turn to indifference which opens the field for love. If both Harry AND Ron are indifferent to Hermione in this respect in book six, it is almost assuredly R/H which is correct.

[delemtri]

Actually, from what I've observed in these "love" topics, I've seen most R/Hr's argue that Ron has deep feelings for Hermione while the H/Hr's say his feelings are superficial. So if the Heron's maintain that Ron deeply loves/likes Hermione, then both JKR quotes sink that ship. It also sinks H/G as Ginny still liked Harry in GoF. This goes for H/C, Hr/Kr, R/F. Even N/Hr would be sunk as there's a chance Neville liked Hermione since he asked her to the ball. The only ship left unaffected by these quotes is H/Hr.

I have no idea what in the world you guys are on about. So any ship that showed any interest in GOF or earlier is sunk now? Funny! The only ship unaffected by a misinterpretation of a quote that leads to the view that showing interest is BAD FOR THE FUTURE OF THE RELATIONSHIP is Harmony! Wow! There must not be much interest shown there!

Ugh.

[Melcb98]

:lol:

See, this is the major problem I have with R/H... too predictable.
Yet, JKR has said that it should pretty much be obvious by now. Interesting.

[delemtri]

My point is that Heron often posts to those things to support Hermione liking Ron in GOF (or vice versa). What happens to those arguements now that you say that Hermione and Ron did not like each other in GOF, but they are going to in later books?

We are saying they did not LOVE each other.

Actually my point isn't based in what Herons say (since they change it all the time to fit their interesting and dodging quotes as the one I posted and the "wrong people" one) but in what JKR said: "The answer to whether Hermione likes Ron more than a friend is in GoF" (paraphrasing) and the "something's going on" quote. Also I said the quote reinforces the "wrong people" quote meaning, and the context (H/C) seems to doom any feelings that arose at 14. Also I noticed that JKR was not very accurate, since the quote stated "Cho didn't like Harry the same way" (paraphrasing), what isn't exactly like that, given the info we have from OotP (Cho liked Cedric better, but Harry wasn't indifferent to her either, even in GoF, given her blush when Harry asked her to the Ball in GoF).

As I posted above, what it seems like you are trying to do is use this quote to dismiss any ship with blatant canon evidence.

[JordanL]

Yet, JKR has said that it should pretty much be obvious by now. Interesting.

Okay, that's like the 500th effing time you Herons have pounded that into me. Enough with the ****ing "it should be evident". I don't believe that, and nothing you say will change that, so move on.

[delemtri]

Okay, that's like the 500th effing time you Herons have pounded that into me. Enough with the ****ing "it should be evident". I don't believe that, and nothing you say will change that, so move on.

So you're saying JKR is tricksy?

;) Kidding...

[JordanL]

So you're saying JKR is tricksy?

;) Kidding...

Yes! Muwahahahahahaha!

Book six... I need the prescious.

[Melcb98]

Actually, from what I've observed in these "love" topics, I've seen most R/Hr's argue that Ron has deep feelings for Hermione while the H/Hr's say his feelings are superficial. So if the Heron's maintain that Ron deeply loves/likes Hermione, then both JKR quotes sink that ship. It also sinks H/G as Ginny still liked Harry in GoF. This goes for H/C, Hr/Kr, R/F. Even N/Hr would be sunk as there's a chance Neville liked Hermione since he asked her to the ball. The only ship left unaffected by these quotes is H/Hr.
Ron and Hermione start to have feelings for each other in GOF. That does not constitute "in love," especially when Ron won't admit to anything to himself, much less anyone else. As JKR has said- he doesn't get it.
Why would JKRs quote about 14 year old not being in love sink R/H? She doesn't state that two people can't really like each other, she doesn't state those feelings will never turn into love.
And, plenty of Harmonians have said that Hermione/Harry starts in GOF- so, if we are going to play fair, H/Hr is actually sunk, too.

[FlyingPhoenix]

I have no idea what in the world you guys are on about. So any ship that showed any interest in GOF or earlier is sunk now? Funny! The only ship unaffected by a misinterpretation of a quote that leads to the view that showing interest is BAD FOR THE FUTURE OF THE RELATIONSHIP is Harmony! Wow! There must not be much interest shown there!

Ugh.

You might want to calm down. Seems like someone is annoyed :evil:

[delemtri]

You might want to calm down. Seems like someone is annoyed :evil:

You're right. :) Thanks.

What I'm trying to say - what I tried to say while going CAPS!LOCK - was that it's completely illogical to try to use a quote that dooms any ship with buildup. JKR herself said "we have different words for that" - there's no implication that these different things aren't sometimes or often precursors to love.

[Corbin Dallas]

My point is that Heron often points to those things to support Hermione liking Ron in GOF (or vice versa). What happens to those arguements now that you say that Hermione and Ron did not like each other in GOF, but they are going to in later books?
Who said they didn't like each other, we said they are not in Love in Goblet, liking more than a friend isn't the same as love, see for me Goblet was the hormone phase that you go through ay 14, the interest is there, the "Love" comes later but Liking is there, get me ;)
CD

[Canon Thumper]

That's stretching it a bit far. Infatuation can turn to indifference which opens the field for love. If both Harry AND Ron are indifferent to Hermione in this respect in book six, it is almost assuredly R/H which is correct.

How do you figure?

I have no idea what in the world you guys are on about. So any ship that showed any interest in GOF or earlier is sunk now?

Yes, if you believe in what JKR has stated.

[mrs_bombadil]

Actually my point isn't based in what Herons say (since they change it all the time to fit their interesting and dodging quotes as the one I posted and the "wrong people" one) but in what JKR said: "The answer to whether Hermione likes Ron more than a friend is in GoF" (paraphrasing) and the "something's going on" quote. Also I said the quote reinforces the "wrong people" quote meaning, and the context (H/C) seems to doom any feelings that arose at 14. Also I noticed that JKR was not very accurate, since the quote stated "Cho didn't like Harry the same way" (paraphrasing), what isn't exactly like that, given the info we have from OotP (Cho liked Cedric better, but Harry wasn't indifferent to her either, even in GoF, given her blush when Harry asked her to the Ball in GoF).

That's a great big circle...

IN LOVE WITH in it's true, deep meaning is something much more than "like more than a friend", something "going on", etc... Most herons do not suggest that Ron and Hermione were IN LOVE in GoF.

Now, do you esicardi believe that Ron and Hermione were in love in GoF? Because the only way YOU can believe this quote is bad is if you think that's the case.

Now, about this quote. Besides needing better corroboration, what do we know about the translation? Kia says it's not hers; whose is it? Were those JKR's original English words or is that how somebody re-translated them?

Can somebody who knows German contact this paper and get a back issue or something? Because it's not in their online archives.

How about we get our facts straight before we take this any further!

[Heatherhobbit]

I have read lots of Jung and lots about Jung . Hermione most definitively embodies the anima (as she is defined by Jung and many Jungian analysts). In fact, she is the final form of the anima – Sophia… Wisdom… (as you said, Athena).

Are you sure that you want to use Jung's theories? He's a bit of a joke.

[esicardi]

As I posted above, what it seems like you are trying to do is use this quote to dismiss any ship with blatant canon evidence.

Nope. I am saying that feelings in GoF weren't deep but shallow and possibly meaningless, contrary to what Herons and Chocolaters claim (if kids can't fall in love at 14, let alone at 12). So even if there is a love triangle situation in the trio it won't be as bad as Herons think.

[Melcb98]

Okay, that's like the 500th effing time you Herons have pounded that into me. Enough with the ****ing "it should be evident". I don't believe that, and nothing you say will change that, so move on.
Don't be so rude.

It is not the Heron's who have said it: it was JKR. If you don't like it, and don't expect to ever hear it again, I guess you won't be on this board anymore, because I can tell you right now, you'll hear in 500 more times.

[delemtri]

Yes, if you believe in what JKR has stated.

No; if you misinterpret it.

Nope. I am saying that feelings in GoF weren't deep but shallow and possibly meaningless, contrary to what Herons and Chocolaters claim (if kids can't fall in love at 14, let alone at 12). So even if there is a love triangle situation in the trio it won't be as bad as Herons think.

We never suggested that they were in love. This is the exact mistake I was trying to explain to JordanL - you're mischaracterizing our stance and then working against your misunderstanding of it.

[Corbin Dallas]

That's a great big circle...

IN LOVE WITH in it's true, deep meaning is something much more than "like more than a friend", something "going on", etc... Most herons do not suggest that Ron and Hermione were IN LOVE in GoF.

Now, do you esicardi believe that Ron and Hermione were in love in GoF? Because the only way YOU can believe this quote is bad is if you think that's the case.

Now, about this quote. Besides needing better corroboration, what do we know about the translation? Kia says it's not hers; whose is it? Were those JKR's original English words or is that how somebody re-translated them?

Can somebody who knows German contact this paper and get a back issue or something? Because it's not in their online archives.

How about we get our facts straight before we take this any further!
I had a friend of mine in Switzerland check the translation and she seemed to think it was accurate, but she can't confirm the newspaper part, there's a book at Amazon sure enough, anyone wantt to buy it and check the biblio, that should be helpful, get me ;)
CD

[JordanL]

How do you figure?

Well, as much as it destroys the function of both Ron and Hermione, if Harry changes his personality in a way which would provide for these circumstances, I doubt that Harry would be open to Hermione in the next book. His functions and needs would change too much.

If Ron is indifferent, it shows that he is comfortable around her in a way he wasn't before, which he needs to be if him and Hermione are to get together. It's the same sort of arguement that H/G shippers use. He needs to get past crush to get to love. There was a very vague amount of this in the end of OotP, however I am still out on whether or not that was because of the structure/focus of the story at the point, or whether or not it was signalling something, thus, my verdict on six.

[esicardi]

That's a great big circle...

IN LOVE WITH in it's true, deep meaning is something much more than "like more than a friend", something "going on", etc... Most herons do not suggest that Ron and Hermione were IN LOVE in GoF.

Now, do you esicardi believe that Ron and Hermione were in love in GoF? Because the only way YOU can believe this quote is bad is if you think that's the case.

All I am saying the quote shows any feelings between then in GoF were not deep but shallow. I am not asumming any of them had any feelings, but that if they had any, those were not meaningful and probably were doomed according JKR's idea of 14 years old romance.


Now, about this quote. Besides needing better corroboration, what do we know about the translation? Kia says it's not hers; whose is it? Were those JKR's original English words or is that how somebody re-translated them?

Can somebody who knows German contact this paper and get a back issue or something? Because it's not in their online archives.

How about we get our facts straight before we take this any further!
The quote is in a BOOK at Amazon.com
If someone wants to verify, get the book, that was the place when Kia found it anyway. Also she checked the sources, I believe.

[JordanL]

Don't be so rude.

It is not the Heron's who have said it: it was JKR. If you don't like it, and don't expect to ever hear it again, I guess you won't be on this board anymore, because I can tell you right now, you'll hear in 500 more times.

I get rather perturbed when people use the same old, irrelevent arguement to argue several seperate and valid points which I bring up.

It really doesn't matter what I'm argueing, if a Heron gets tired of argueing with me, they resort to "well it should be evident", which is a caveat for a lack of counterpoints. I see the use of this arguement as the admission that you have nothing further to add.

PS: I'm like five posts away from my second year. ^_^

[delemtri]

The quote is in a BOOK at Amazon.com
If someone wants to verify, get the book, that was the place when Kia found it anyway. Also she checked the sources, I believe.

What is the name of the book?

I get rather perturbed when people use the same old, irrelevent arguement to argue several seperate and valid points which I bring up.

It really doesn't matter what I'm argueing, if a Heron gets tired of argueing with me, they resort to "well it should be evident", which is a caveat for a lack of counterpoints. I see the use of this arguement as the admission that you have nothing further to add.

That's very interesting... an atheist in a world where we know there's a God (JKR).

[FlyingPhoenix]

Can somebody who knows German contact this paper and get a back issue or something? Because it's not in their online archives.

You know this don't really matter if its confirmed or not since uhm, it don't change your opinion about it, does it?

Are you sure that you want to use Jung's theories? He's a bit of a joke.

In my understanding could we say that about every psychologist. However we do use their theories. At some points I would even say a few philosophist are too not that right in their head. How was it genius is close to madness

[JordanL]

That's very interesting... an atheist in a world where we know there's a God (JKR).

Pardon? I'm Protestant.

[Canon Thumper]

Ron and Hermione start to have feelings for each other in GOF. That does not constitute "in love," especially when Ron won't admit to anything to himself, much less anyone else. As JKR has said- he doesn't get it.

Ron may not get it, but as many Herons have argued, they feel Hermione is aware of her feelings for Ron. I've even seen Heron's use the "Hermione used Krum to make Ron jealous" argument. If this is the case, then the "everyone in love with the wrong people" quote by JKR sinks the R/Hr ship - as it does H/G, N/Hr and Hr/K.

Why would JKRs quote about 14 year old not being in love sink R/H? She doesn't state that two people can't really like each other, she doesn't state those feelings will never turn into love.
And, plenty of Harmonians have said that Hermione/Harry starts in GOF- so, if we are going to play fair, H/Hr is actually sunk, too.

I have never seen a Harmonian say that H/Hr started in GoF, though I could be wrong on that. What I have seen are the Harmonians saying that H/Hr are being built up without the characters knowledge. Most say that they feel Hermione became consciou towards the end of GoF or in OotP. Since H/Hr weren't a ship (by the popular definition) in GoF, they cannot be sunk by JKR's words.

[delemtri]

Pardon? I'm Protestant.

I meant in the Potterverse, not in the universe.

[JordanL]

I meant in the Potterverse, not in the universe.

Ah.

[delemtri]

Ron may not get it, but as many Herons have argued, they feel Hermione is aware of her feeloings for Ron. I've even seen the Heron use the "Hermione used Krum to make Ron jealous argument." If this is the case, then the "everyone in love with the wrong people" quote by JKR sinks the R/Hr ship - as it does H/G, N/Hr and Hr/K.

I've never seen this argued. The contemporary Heron position on GOF is that Ron and Hermione were just discovering their feelings, much as Harmony believes Harry will discover his feelings for Hermione.

[esicardi]

What is the name of the book?

A German book. Here's the link to book description at Amazon.com
http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/3551351074/qid%3D1102465837/ref%3Dsr%5F8%5Fxs%5Fap%5Fi1%5Fxgl/028-8350841-6382148

[Canon Thumper]

I've never seen this argued. The contemporary Heron position on GOF is that Ron and Hermione were just discovering their feelings, much as Harmony believes Harry will discover his feelings for Hermione.

I've seen essays which argue that R/Hr are deeply in love. I don't remember where they are exactly, but go to any pro-R/Hr site and you'll see them.

[mrs_bombadil]

You know this don't really matter if its confirmed or not since uhm, it don't change your opinion about it, does it?


That's not true and not fair. If I am supposed to look at something JKR said and consider what it means, I need it to

A) be actual

and

B) be accurate

We are not debating Jung here.

[delemtri]

I've seen essays which argue that R/Hr are deeply in love. I don't remember where they are exactly, but go to any pro-R/Hr site and you'll see them.

Well, I'm sure this quote might hurt people on those sites. We're a bit more reasonable here, you'll find, and you're not really arguing against us if you're addressing the points on a site none of us are associated with.

[Corbin Dallas]

Now to answer JKR's question, "who does Hermione love?" I say she loves both. But she loves Ron only as a friend while she has intense romantic feelings for Harry. That's the only conclusion I can draw from the HP series.
an exerpt from Turambar's "Who does Hermione Love?"
http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/madampuddifoot/edit-turambar.shtml
So if we follow the current logic then this assertion is wrong then Esicardi?
Okay....
and I know it follows Order but seriously, how is 15 different than 14, get me ;)...
CD
PS:
I just want to say "Yes" I know what a hornet's nest this will stir...

[mrs_bombadil]

All I am saying the quote shows any feelings between then in GoF were not deep but shallow. I am not asumming any of them had any feelings, but that if they had any, those were not meaningful and probably were doomed according JKR's idea of 14 years old romance.


The quote is in a BOOK at Amazon.com
If someone wants to verify, get the book, that was the place when Kia found it anyway. Also she checked the sources, I believe.

No, she doesn't say doomed, she says not in real true love (it the translation is correct)...yet (that's my word). Just because your feelings are immature, doesn't mean they won't be mature some day. It doesn't rule anything out.

The title is "Viel Zauber um Harry. Die Welt der Joanne K. Rowling"

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that means "Much Ado about Harry. The World of Joanne K. Rowling".

[Canon Thumper]

Well, as much as it destroys the function of both Ron and Hermione, if Harry changes his personality in a way which would provide for these circumstances, I doubt that Harry would be open to Hermione in the next book. His functions and needs would change too much.

JKR is the only one who'll decide what Harry needs and what his functions are? If she sees fit to have him open up even more to Hermione than he already has, so be it.

If Ron is indifferent, it shows that he is comfortable around her in a way he wasn't before, which he needs to be if him and Hermione are to get together.

Interesting Heron argument. If Ron shows indifference to Hermione, it can still lead to them becoming a couple. Harry showing indifference to Ginny all these years can still lead to them becoming a couple, but if Harry or Hermione show the slightest interest in another person (Cho/Krum), it sinks the H/Hr ship. I don't get this logic at all.

[Melcb98]

I get rather perturbed when people use the same old, irrelevent arguement to argue several seperate and valid points which I bring up.

It really doesn't matter what I'm argueing, if a Heron gets tired of argueing with me, they resort to "well it should be evident", which is a caveat for a lack of counterpoints. I see the use of this arguement as the admission that you have nothing further to add.

PS: I'm like five posts away from my second year. ^_^
When you say:
See, this is the major problem I have with R/H... too predictable.
The logical reponse is the obvious one: that JKR has said that the answer is obvious. If you don't like that answer, do not post something that obviously calls for that answer.
BTW- do not generalize all Heron's.

[delemtri]

Interesting Heron argument. If Ron shows indifference to Hermione, it can still lead to them becoming a couple. Harry showing indifference to Ginny all these years can still lead to them becoming a couple, but if Harry or Hermione show the slightest interest in another person (Cho/Krum), it sinks the H/Hr ship. I don't get this logic at all.

JordanL is (though a good guy!) decidedly not a Heron; see his previous posts.

[esicardi]

The actual quote in German (according Kia) is:

Ich glaube nicht, dass 14-Jaehrige sich ernsthaft verlieben. Es gibt andere Worte dafuer. Er wird die Maedchen entdecken. Er mag ein Maedchen, das ihn allerdings nicht genauso mag. Das war sehr wichtig fuer mich. Ich wollte dass er auf realistische Art waechst.

If FlyingPhoenix can confirm the meaning for us, I'd be grateful.

ETA:mrs_bombadil I said the context (H/C) seems to imply romantic feelings at 14 are doomed, and I am positive it implies those feelings are shallow. The "yet" part is just wishful thinking of your part.
Anyway the quote shows that any Ginny-->Harry or Ron-->Hermione (or even an eventual hypothetical Hermione-->Ron) in GoF were all shallow and meaningless in the sense of real romances.

[Canon Thumper]

Well, I'm sure this quote might hurt people on those sites. We're a bit more reasonable here, you'll find, and you're not really arguing against us if you're addressing the points on a site none of us are associated with.

I'm not addressing the points made on another site here. I've been lurking on the threads for quite awhile before I decided to jump in and everything I've pointed out has been argued here at one point or another.

[mrs_bombadil]

The actual quote in German (according Kia) is:

Ich glaube nicht, dass 14-Jaehrige sich ernsthaft verlieben. Es gibt andere Worte dafuer. Er wird die Maedchen entdecken. Er mag ein Maedchen, das ihn allerdings nicht genauso mag. Das war sehr wichtig fuer mich. Ich wollte dass er auf realistische Art waechst.

If FlyingPhoenix can confirm the meaning for us, I'd be grateful.

Which would be very nice yes...it still wouldn't give us her original words in English though.

[Melcb98]

Ron may not get it, but as many Herons have argued, they feel Hermione is aware of her feelings for Ron. I've even seen Heron's use the "Hermione used Krum to make Ron jealous" argument. If this is the case, then the "everyone in love with the wrong people" quote by JKR sinks the R/Hr ship - as it does H/G, N/Hr and Hr/K.
I'm sorry, but why does feelings equal being "in love?" That makes no sense to me.



I have never seen a Harmonian say that H/Hr started in GoF, though I could be wrong on that. What I have seen are the Harmonians saying that H/Hr are being built up without the characters knowledge. Most say that they feel Hermione became consciou towards the end of GoF or in OotP. Since H/Hr weren't a ship (by the popular definition) in GoF, they cannot be sunk by JKR's words.
I have seen plenty of Harmonians argue that H/Hr started in GOF. Since you are new here, I can understand why you have never seen it. And, built up without the characters knowledge, would still mean that they are falling on love, right, but not realizing it? You can't have it both ways. If Hermione became conscious at the end of GOF, thats still GOF right? If H/Hr had fans, that means they are a ship. And, JKRs words did sink them- if you are still going to go by your own rules!

[delemtri]

I'm not addressing the points made on another site here. I've been lurking on the threads for quite awhile before I decided to jump in and everything I've pointed out has been argued here at one point or another.

Well, have fun arguing with people who aren't here.

[Lady Vorn]

It all just keeps going in circles!!!!!!!!!!
:wow:

[Corbin Dallas]

It all just keeps going in circles!!!!!!!!!!
:wow:
You know since debating ships, symphony of cirlces has become my theme song , get me ;)
CD

[FlyingPhoenix]

We are not debating Jung here.

Excuse me, where is in that quote of me anything about Jung?

That's not true and not fair. If I am supposed to look at something JKR said and consider what it means, I need it to

A) be actual

and

B) be accurate

You gave your opinion and view on that "interview" and this quote about "14 years don't fall in love" for what do you need a confirmation whether its true or not?

On another note: Die Frankfurter Rundschau don't has everything what they ever published archived on internet. Rarely I saw German Newspaper do that anyway.

You know there exist a Stern Interview with JKR and I even read that before I was in this fandom however you don't find it on their site.

If FlyingPhoenix can confirm the meaning for us, I'd be grateful.

Kia got it very exact. The English-version is correct like that.

[esicardi]

Which would be very nice yes...it still wouldn't give us her original words in English though.

That's the best we can get, I am afraid, since the book is in German.

[Corbin Dallas]

You know there exist a Stern Interview with JKR and I even read that before I was in this fandom however you don't find it on their site.
Wait Howard Stern interviewed Jo, when? I'll be able to get it if it exists, least I think I can, just give me a time frame, Jo on Howard Stern and I missed it, man now I feel like a doofus, LONG LIVE HOWARD ON SIRIUS, CENSOR FREE RADIO ;)
CD

[Canon Thumper]

JordanL is (though a good guy!) decidedly not a Heron; see his previous posts.

My apologies to JordanL. His argument sounded like he was a Heron.

I'm sorry, but why does feelings equal being "in love?" That makes no sense to me.

It doesn't. I'm only saying that Herons argue that Ron <-> Hermione are in love with each other. That's why the quote sinks them.

I have seen plenty of Harmonians argue that H/Hr started in GOF. Since you are new here, I can understand why you have never seen it. And, built up without the characters knowledge, would still mean that they are falling on love, right, but not realizing it? You can't have it both ways. If Hermione became conscious at the end of GOF, thats still GOF right? If H/Hr had fans, that means they are a ship. And, JKRs words did sink them- if you are still going to go by your own rules!

No, if Harry were falling in love with Hermione subconsciously in OotP while he was dating Cho, that would exclude them from JKR's quotes. JKR was talking about characters whom were aware of their feelings for another. I've seen Herons argue that Hermione was in love with Ron in GoF - and to prove this, they routinely use the "Ask me next time" line Hermione delivers to him after the Yule Ball. If Hermione is in love with Ron in GoF, or vice versa, as most Herons have argued, then JKR's words have sunk them - based on the arguments Herons routinely use.

By the way, I never said I was a Harmonian? I'm debating with a few ideas of the Heron because I see something worth discussing. It does not mean I ship H/Hr.

[esicardi]

Kia got it very exact. The English-version is correct like that.
Thanks for the confirmation Flyingphoenix! :clap: :tu:

[Canon Thumper]

Well, have fun arguing with people who aren't here.

I will have fun debating with people who are here and still use the same arguments as their evidence. Thank you.

[mrs_bombadil]

Excuse me, where is in that quote of me anything about Jung?

We can discuss and debate something like Jung without knowing or agreeing whether he's right or the interpretations done with his method is accurate. It's subjective, not canon.

You gave your opinion and view on that "interview" and this quote about "14 years don't fall in love" for what do you need a confirmation whether its true or not?

My opinion is IF it's true and IF it's accurate. I'd rather deal in facts, wouldn't you? If we are to try to determine what we really think, we should start with something accurate.

On another note: Die Frankfurter Rundschau don't has everything what they ever published archived on internet. Rarely I saw German Newspaper do that anyway.

Are you allowed, as with most newspapers here, to request a back issue?

You know there exist a Stern Interview with JKR and I even read that before I was in this fandom however you don't find it on their site.

That's fine but it couldn't be discussed without text, could it?

[delemtri]

It doesn't. I'm only saying that Herons argue that Ron <-> Hermione are in love with each other. That's why the quote sinks them.

But we don't, as we've been saying for... how many pages now? Or at least we don't believe they were in love in GOF.

I will have fun debating with people who are here and still use the same arguments as their evidence. Thank you.

There are none.

[esicardi]

My apologies to JordanL. His argument sounded like he was a Heron.



It doesn't. I'm only saying that Herons argue that Ron <-> Hermione are in love with each other. That's why the quote sinks them.



No, if Harry were falling in love with Hermione subconsciously in OotP while he was dating Cho, that would exclude them from JKR's quotes. JKR was talking about characters whom were aware of their feelings for another. I've seen Herons argue that Hermione was in love with Ron in GoF - and to prove this, they routinely use the "Ask me next time" line Hermione delivers to him after the Yule Ball. If Hermione is in love with Ron in GoF, or vice versa, as most Herons have argued, then JKR's words have sunk them - based on the arguments Herons routinely use.


Agreed. :tu:


By the way, I never said I was a Harmonian? I'm debating with a few ideas of the Heron because I see something worth discussing. It does not mean I ship H/Hr.
Exactly. I am a Harmonian, but I can see the difference between "no R/Hr in books" and "H/Hr happening in books". :tu:

[Anakin Solo]

In your opinion. I don't think he's much like her at all.



Whether Harry is better at magic than Ron or not, what does this matter in a relationship? Hermione could get together with a squib or muggle for all you know.



And Hermione needs to lighten up a bit. Do you think she's very happy being so serious?


It was brought up that Hermione might prefer someone smarter than Ron, hence the grade comparisons.

Hermione did lighten up, she's not a nerd anymore, just smart, JKR said she had lightened up.

[KianRosencrantz]

Wait Howard Stern interviewed Jo, when? I'll be able to get it if it exists, least I think I can, just give me a time frame, Jo on Howard Stern and I missed it, man now I feel like a doofus, LONG LIVE HOWARD ON SIRIUS, CENSOR FREE RADIO ;)
CD

Stern as in Star not Stern as the DJ. =P *just thought i'd let ya know...*

[delemtri]

It was brought up that Hermione might prefer someone smarter than Ron, hence the grade comparisons.

Hermione did lighten up, she's not a nerd anymore, just smart, JKR said she had lightened up.

Well, no, she still tries to force homework on Harry and Ron. And Harry does about the same, as mentioned earlier, as Ron in every class but DADA (see his D for Dreadful in Potions, etc).

[Corbin Dallas]

Stern...means Star. =P *just thought i'd let ya know...*
AHHHHH your kidding, blast, oh well then...
would have been interesting though *snickers*
CD

[mrs_bombadil]

So, what about this part of the translated quote:

"There are other words for that"

What words for 14 year-old romantic feelings do you think it could be?

Puppy love?

Like like?

Crushing?

Is it impossible to feel more for this person later in life? Did Cho and Harry fail because of bad timing only?

Part of the heron argument is that Ron and Hermione have an attraction that they are largely too young to understand or act on with any probability of success.

I fail to see how that quote disputes this.

[Canon Thumper]

But we don't, as we've been saying for... how many pages now? Or at least we don't believe they were in love in GOF.

Hmm...this appears to be a 180 from established Heron evidence across fandom. Evidence I've seen posted here in this forum for some time, but if you say you don't believe so, then ok.

There are none.

I beg to differ.

[Moonstruck]

Who said they didn't like each other, we said they are not in Love in Goblet, liking more than a friend isn't the same as love, see for me Goblet was the hormone phase that you go through ay 14, the interest is there, the "Love" comes later but Liking is there, get me ;)
CD

I think you are misinterpeting the quote. Do you think Harry was in love with Cho in GOF?

[Corbin Dallas]

I think you are misinterpeting the quote. Do you think Harry was in love with Cho in GOF?
NO, I think he liked her as in crush, the hormone thing again, get me ;)
CD
The "They" I was referring to was Hermione and Ron, sorry should have been more clear on that, apologies ;)

[delemtri]

I think you are misinterpeting the quote. Do you think Harry was in love with Cho in GOF?

It's *confusing* because JKR says there's no such thing as love at 14 in this quote and then in the other quote he says everyone is in love with the wrong people in GOF. How can they be in love if there's no such thing at their age?

Hmm...this appears to be a 180 from established Heron evidence across fandom. Evidence I've seen posted here in this forum for some time, but if you say you don't believe so, then ok.

You are failing to see the distinction between "being/falling in love" and "having a crush." See Mrs. Bombadil's post.

I beg to differ.

Don't beg, it's demeaning.

[esicardi]

So, what about this part of the translated quote:

"There are other words for that"

What words for 14 year-old romantic feelings do you think it could be?

Puppy love?

Like like?

Crushing?

JKR implied those words were "discovering the opposite sex", if you read the complete quote.


Is it impossible to feel more for this person later in life?

No, but this disqualifies GoF as pro-shipping evidence for any ship.
Try to argue R/Hr without refering to GoF.


Did Cho and Harry fail because of bad timing only?

They failed because of the shallowness of their feelings.


Part of the heron argument is that Ron and Hermione have an attraction that they are largely too young to understand or act on with any probability of success.
I fail to see how that quote disputes this.
But then you can't use the "ask me next time" as an argument for Hermione's feelings, for example.
Also JKR claim that Hermione's feelings (or lack of) for Ron are defined by GoF imply that either those feelings don't exist (and won't since the answer "is in GoF") or they are shallow and likely to disappear/fail/change, since 14 years old are like that according JKR.

[Canon Thumper]

You are failing to see the distinction between "being/falling in love" and "having a crush." See Mrs. Bombadil's post.

So no member of the Heron in this topic believes that R/Hr were in love in GoF? Is that correct?

Don't beg, it's demeaning.

If this is meant to be funny, I missed the joke. :td:

[delemtri]

No, but this disqualifies GoF as pro-shipping evidence for any ship.


No it doesn't. There are feelings in GOF, just the ones that JKR "uses other words" for. These feelings often lead into stronger feelings, such as those of love.

So no member of the Heron in this topic believes that R/Hr were in love in GoF? Is that correct?

Nobody participating in this discussion does.

If this is meant to be funny, I missed the joke. :td:

Don't blame yourself; it was a bad joke.

[mrs_bombadil]

ETA:mrs_bombadil I said the context (H/C) seems to imply romantic feelings at 14 are doomed, and I am positive it implies those feelings are shallow. The "yet" part is just wishful thinking of your part.
Anyway the quote shows that any Ginny-->Harry or Ron-->Hermione (or even an eventual hypothetical Hermione-->Ron) in GoF were all shallow and meaningless in the sense of real romances.

Yes, it implies that what Harry experiences is not going to work out. I don't disagree that any feelings in GoF are immature or shallow. It's just illogical to say anybody with any feelings of ANY kind in GoF are the "wrong people", to bring in the other quotes. Her FINAL quote in that series was "after" the wrong people, which is pretty clear to me. Her other quotes that were anti-H/C, K/Hr, R/F seem to back up my position.

[Moonstruck]

NO, I think he liked her as in crush, the hormone thing again, get me ;)
CD
The "They" I was referring to was Hermione and Ron, sorry should have been more clear on that, apologies ;)

Oh, don't worry. I was just asking for you to clear something up for me. :)

So Harry liked Cho in GOF

And Hermione liked Ron in GOF

Now since JK failed H/C in OOTP because they weren't 'in love,' wouldn't that mean R/Hr fails because of the same reasons?

[esicardi]

No it doesn't. There are feelings in GOF, just the ones that JKR "uses other words" for. These feelings often lead into stronger feelings, such as those of love.

Since JKR exemplifies her statement with H/C, I'd say that according JKR those feelings usually lead to disaster, and success is a rare exception, to be fair.

[mrs_bombadil]

Since JKR exemplifies her statement with H/C, I'd say that according JKR those feelings usually lead to disaster, and success is a rare exception, to be fair.

I'd say you're putting words in her mouth that aren't in the quote.

[esicardi]

Yes, it implies that what Harry experiences is not going to work out. I don't disagree that any feelings in GoF are immature or shallow. It's just illogical to say anybody with any feelings of ANY kind in GoF are the "wrong people", to bring in the other quotes. Her FINAL quote in that series was "after" the wrong people, which is pretty clear to me. Her other quotes that were anti-H/C, K/Hr, R/F seem to back up my position.

Well, IMHO, K/Hr, H/C and R/F are not the only relationships JKR was talking about.

[delemtri]

Well, IMHO, K/Hr, H/C and R/F are not the only relationships JKR was talking about.

That's entirely your opinion and is stated nowhere in the quotes.

Since JKR exemplifies her statement with H/C, I'd say that according JKR those feelings usually lead to disaster, and success is a rare exception, to be fair.

I'd disagree. James was obviously interested in Lily at least as early as their fifth year, and Molly and Arthur dated while at Hogwarts.

[esicardi]

I'd say you're putting words in her mouth that aren't in the quote.

JKR says unrequitted feelings (H->C) are realistic and important to her. So I don't think that making R/Hr work because it would hurt Ron or the trio is a valid argument anymore (not that I thought it was before, anyway). Also anything "going on" between R/Hr in GoF was shallow and doesn't warrant R/Hr will ever sail.

That's entirely your opinion and is stated nowhere in the quotes.

So? My opinion on the quotes is not any less valuable than yours or mrs_bombadil's


I'd disagree. James was obviously interested in Lily at least as early as their fifth year, and Molly and Arthur dated while at Hogwarts.

James was 15, not 14, and we don't know what age were Molly and Arthur, so it is unrelevant unless you can prove they liked each other at 14.

[delemtri]

JKR says unrequitted feelings (H->C) are realistic and important to her. So I don't think that making R/Hr work because it would hurt Ron or the trio is a valid argument anymore (not that I thought it was before, anyway). Also anything "going on" between R/Hr in GoF was shallow and doesn't warrant R/Hr will ever sail.

Harmony loves making this case, don't they? All interviews are about the first five books and don't apply to the last two. All feelings in the first five books are canceled out. Well, geez, let's just start from scratch. No canon, no interviews. Does that make any sense? No. Buh.

[Corbin Dallas]

Oh, don't worry. I was just asking for you to clear something up for me. :)

So Harry liked Cho in GOF

And Hermione liked Ron in GOF

Now since JK failed H/C in OOTP because they weren't 'in love,' wouldn't that mean R/Hr fails because of the same reasons?
Depend on what happens between them, Hermione and Ron weren't dating in Order, or we don't think they were, so i don't see how that applies, besides Lily and James worked out until their end and from what we saw in the pensieve, they seemed to be very similar, not exact, to what is going on between Ron and Hermione. Finally one other difference Ron and Hermione are friends, Harry and Cho weren't, get me ;)
CD

[esicardi]

Harmony loves making this case, don't they? All interviews are about the first five books and don't apply to the last two. All feelings in the first five books are canceled out. Well, geez, let's just start from scratch. No canon, no interviews. Does that make any sense? No. Buh.

I am not making this argument at all, and if you can't stop to misinterprete what I say I am afraid I'll ignore your posts.

[mrs_bombadil]

JKR implied those words were "discovering the opposite sex", if you read the complete quote.

I did, the translated quote is:

Q: Is Harry going to fall in love [in Book Four]?

I don't believe that fourteen-year-olds can truly fall in love. There are other words for that. He is going to discover girls. He likes a girl, but she doesn't like him in the same way. That was very important for me. I wanted him to grow in a realistic manner.

The interviewer is asking about Harry's love life in Book 4, will he fall "in love"? Her response indicates firstly that she doesn't believe they can truly "fall in love". She goes on to indicate that there are other words for that, but she doesn't offer what they are. She then affirms that he will "discover" girls. We know this to be Cho and that in Book 4 she does not fully reciprocate. She indictes that (presumably the difficult aspect) was important to her in the writing because she wanted Harry to grow in a realistic manner (which is reinforced in other quotes that suggest to me that "love hurts" thing was an accurate way to show Harry's progress).

To me, the above is all we can really glean from the quote without speculating. If you want to put it in a context with the other quotes that seem very similar, that can be done; I have done so and the quote above doesn't in any way contradict any else I have presented on the subject.

No, but this disqualifies GoF as pro-shipping evidence for any ship.
Try to argue R/Hr without refering to GoF.

How so? She doesn't speak strongly enough about any other character. She doesn't say that the age is the reason for Harry and Cho not working out.

They failed because of the shallowness of their feelings.

I think Harry and Cho failed for a lot of other reasons besides just that. But, I agree that if Ron and Hermione had hooked up already, it probably wouldn't have worked out. That's why it's good for R/Hr that they haven't gone there yet.

[delemtri]

So? My opinion on the quotes is not any less valuable than yours or mrs_bombadil's

No, it's not. However, it might be wrong, and I think it is, so I'm arguing that.

James was 15, not 14, and we don't know what age were Molly and Arthur, so it is unrelevant unless you can prove they liked each other at 14.

There's a great deal of R/H evidence in OOTP, which I think Angua posted a summary of earlier. Anyway, I don't think it makes sense to expect all relationships begun at 14 or before to suddenly cancel out and everything start anew.

James and Lily were in the same year and the same house, so I'd suggest that he was probably interested in her earlier than 15. In any event, I don't see JKR's quote as drawing a line at 14 and saying all romance after 14 is valid, all before is invalid. I don't really think that makes any sense.

[FlyingPhoenix]

We can discuss and debate something like Jung without knowing or agreeing whether he's right or the interpretations done with his method is accurate. It's subjective, not canon.


By topics like that there don't exist a right or a wrong. It's a thesis, so I did call it till the day its proven but I seriously doubt anything in psychology will be proven. Its not a sciene where you can proof anything unlike Mathe or Physik though only in Mathe exist a right and a wrong and all others, not. But this are thesis's which are very much accepted as right or taken as basic for further explainations.

My opinion is IF it's true and IF it's accurate. I'd rather deal in facts, wouldn't you? If we are to try to determine what we really think, we should start with something accurate.

In your case it did interest me more when this interview was supposed to be.
Aside this I did rather deal with a confirmed interview however many, many interviews with JKR are not. You know its even hard to follow the Quote's at TLC to the orginal one. For example the Couric Interview is at fault at TLC and at the Channel Internetsite. In fact there are only a few, really few Interviews which can be followed back to the orginal like that one at the CoS DVD or PoA DVD.


Are you allowed, as with most newspapers here, to request a back issue?

You can ask this paper if they ever had such an interview? It might even be that you can ask them to sent you the article though I suppose there you might pay something. However in general you can do that but its bit difficult if you don't know when this Interview was done cause it could be that they had more than one.


That's fine but it couldn't be discussed without text, could it?

If I had bothered about HP at that time we actually could but so, no.

[delemtri]

I am not making this argument at all, and if you can't stop to misinterprete what I say I am afraid I'll ignore your posts.

Explain to me where I was wrong, as I explained to you numerous times.

[Corbin Dallas]

Barnes & Noble Chat October 2000
[Will Ron ever get a girlfriend?] I'm laughing again... why wouldn't he?! Though he's not doing too well at the moment, is he? But then, Fleur Delacour was really aiming a bit high.
http://www.sugarquill.net/index.php?action=gringotts&st=quotesron
Ron->Fleur as Jo herself says
Scholastic Online Chat Febuary 3, 2000
Is Harry Potter ever going to fall in love with Hermione or is he going to fall in love with Ginny Weasley?
In Book IV Harry does decide he likes a girl, but it's not Hermione or Ginny. However, he's only 14, so there's plenty of time for him to change his mind. ;-)
http://www.mugglenet.com/scholchat1.shtml
Harry-> Cho (oh and there's that pesky future tense thing too ;) )

The Columbus Dispatch-28 October 1999
Q: Will Harry find romance in book four?
A: He tries, but he doesn't get very far.
They're all kind of after the wrong people, as in life. Hermione gets the first date, and it's quite a cool one because I thought I owed her a bit of fun.
http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/1999/1099-columbusdisp-gilson.html
Hermione dated Krum
hope this helps, have more if needed, just ask, get me ;)
CD

[Moonstruck]

Depend on what happens between them, Hermione and Ron weren't dating in Order, or we don't think they were, so i don't see how that applies, besides Lily and James worked out until their end and from what we saw in the pensieve, they seemed to be very similar, not exact, to what is going on between Ron and Hermione. Finally one other difference Ron and Hermione are friends, Harry and Cho weren't, get me ;)
CD

I think it applies because if Hermione liked Ron in GOF (like Harry did with Cho) then it means it will likely fail (like Harry's did with Cho).

And as esicardi points out, what do we know from Lily and James from one scene? We know they argued, but for how long? How long did James like Lily? Since his first year or did he just realize his feelings in his fifth year? We don't know. We just know what happened after fifth year, not before.

[delemtri]

Very nice. Thanks, CD!

I think it applies because if Hermione liked Ron in GOF (like Harry did with Cho) then it means it will likely fail (like Harry's did with Cho).

This makes no sense whatsoever. Can you explain more? JKR didn't say "all relationships which begin at 14 fail" - she said, roughly, "I don't believe there's such a thing as true love at 14," adding that there are "other names" for the things that go on at that time.

[mrs_bombadil]

In your case it did interest me more when this interview was supposed to be.

Aside this I did rather deal with a confirmed interview however many, many interviews with JKR are not. You know its even hard to follow the Quote's at TLC to the orginal one. For example the Couric Interview is at fault at TLC and at the Channel Internetsite. In fact there are only a few, really few Interviews which can be followed back to the orginal like that one at the CoS DVD or PoA DVD.

Thankfully for the Couric interview we do have a clip to refer back to. :evil:

You can ask this paper if they ever had such an interview? It might even be that you can ask them to sent you the article though I suppose there you might pay something. However in general you can do that but its bit difficult if you don't know when this Interview was done cause it could be that they had more than one.

According to esicardi's post, it was "published in German newspaper Frankfurter Rundschau on the 07/08/2000". If you communicate with the paper, I will pay for it. :D

[Corbin Dallas]

I think it applies because if Hermione liked Ron in GOF (like Harry did with Cho) then it means it will likely fail (like Harry's did with Cho).

And as esicardi points out, what do we know from Lily and James from one scene? We know they argued, but for how long? How long did James like Lily? Since his first year or did he just realize his feelings in his fifth year? We don't know. We just know what happened after fifth year, not before.
True but there is a different dynamic between Ron and Hermione as oppossed to Harry and Cho. Ron and Hermione are best friends, before Hormones kicked in, they cared for each other and liked each other. Harry began to notice and crush on Cho before he got to know her. Harry and Cho were not best friends, they liked each other but they had issues as well, death of Cedric and Harry's status in Order.
These dynamics are very different and really don't link these two situations at all, get me... ;)
CD

[Moonstruck]

True but there is a different dynamic between Ron and Hermione as oppossed to Harry and Cho. Ron and Hermione are best friends, before Hormones kicked in, they cared for each other and liked each other. Harry began to notice and crush on Cho before he got to know her. Harry and Cho were not best friends, they liked each other but they had issues as well, death of Cedric and Harry's status in Order.
These dynamics are very different and really don't link these two situations at all, get me... ;)
CD

So you think that R/Hr will be an easy thing? That they won't have issues to work out?

I think they will because I see Hr->H in OOTP and that'll be something R/Hr will have to work out.

[Corbin Dallas]

So you think that R/Hr will be an easy thing? That they won't have issues to work out?

I think they will because I see Hr->H in OOTP and that'll be something R/Hr will have to work out.
Where did I say it would be easy? Oh and Jo herself says there's more tension between Hermione/Ron as opposed to Harry/Hermione in Order so what your seeing isn't there or have chosen to ignore what is there, I don't know which and leave it to you to figure out.
Now are you going to tell me now that the dynamic between Ron/Hermione is the same as Harry/Cho or do you concede my point, if so the Harr/Cho has no bearing on Hermione/Ron and that's why I point to Lily/James as a comparative, again not exact but very similiar from what we saw and Lupin and Sirius told us about them.
Now you know i didn't say that Hermione and Ron would be easy, I only mentioned the issues Harry/Cho had as they actually did date in Order, get me ;)
CD

[Moonstruck]

Where did I say it would be easy? Oh and Jo herself says there's more tension between Hermione/Ron as opposed to Harry/Hermione in Order so what your seeing isn't there or have chosen to ignore what is there, I don't know which and leave it to you to figure out.

So the tenison in R/Hr is only one kind of tenison and can't be anything else?

I think it's there. I can't figure out what else can explain it.

Now are you going to tell me now that the dynamic between Ron/Hermione is the same as Harry/Cho or do you concede my point, if so the Harr/Cho has no bearing on Hermione/Ron and that's why I point to Lily/James as a comparative, again not exact but very similiar from what we saw and Lupin and Sirius told us about them.
Now you know i didn't say that Hermione and Ron would be easy, I only mentioned the issues Harry/Cho had as they actually did date in Order, get me ;)
CD

The dynamic is different because neither Ron nor Hermione are admiting their feelings to each other, like Harry did with Cho. Other than that, they both have feelings for the other in the same book (GOF).

But J/L were different. They were never friends to begin with.

[AmmoniaAlert]

Kia posted in her live journal (http://www.livejournal.com/users/no_remorse/) an old, but never seen before interview with JKR (http://www.livejournal.com/users/no_remorse/71409.html) interview with JKR, published in German newspaper Frankfurter Rundschau on the 07/08/2000.
Check it up, the bits Kia posted are really worthy of reading, especially this one (bold mine):


Is there a link to the full text od the interview in German? I'd like to read it.

Some of the parts sound familiar, some don't.

[Corbin Dallas]

So the tenison in R/Hr is only one kind of tenison and can't be anything else?

I think it's there. I can't figure out what else can explain it.



The dynamic is different because neither Ron nor Hermione are admiting their feelings to each other, like Harry did with Cho. Other than that, they both have feelings for the other in the same book (GOF).

But J/L were different. They were never friends to begin with.
Couric brings up snogging and Jo lays in with Hermione and Ron, are you seriously suggesting that Jo was referring to another kind of tension, come on Moonstruck, don't let Couric's horrible interview technique cloud the issue, it was a question about romance and Jo brings up Hermione and Ron.

no the other difference in the dynamic is Ron and Hermione are best friends, Harry and Cho are not and never were. Lily never hated James as both Sirisu and Lupin explained, but what was going on between them again, frrom the pensieve, was similar not exact, thats my point, get me ;)
oh and as a side, do you think it would be easier to date a person who isn't your best friend or easier to date your best friend?
CD

[GilyAnn]

You know this don't really matter if its confirmed or not since uhm, it don't change your opinion about it, does it?

Off course it matters if it confirms or not! We are suppossed to believe in something that is 4 years old, it was public but that no HP fan had seen until today and that nobody can verify unless they buy a book? I'm sorry but this interview is starting to sound as something weird. Furhtermore I have never heard JKR be this undiplomatic before:

Q: What do you have against Enid Blyton?

She wasn't a good writer *snip*

Never waste these fourteen-year olds a thought on sexual feelings, never do they have a bad wish. There are only the evil criminals and the decent, nice middle-class kids. In her books mother is always in the kitchen baking cake while father repairs the car. But children never experience (a) life so harmonious(ly). Enid Blyton was just a liar. If we had ever met, she wouldn't have liked me - I smoke too much.

Q: The life of your hero Harry Potter often resembles this of the orphans Oliver Twist and David Copperfield. But he desires a harmonious family of an Enid Blyton.

You are right, Harry wants to be loved. But ironically his foster family is the realistic version of the Blyton family: Aunt Petunia is in the kitchen baking cake, Uncle Vernon earns the money. But a truly happy family life experiences Harry at best with the Weasleys, the parents of his friend Ron. But they have problems, too. They are a nice family, but they are poor.

While she has critized Blyton for the standing still time frame of her books JKR has never lowered herself to such low bashing and this sounds as a publicity stunt of someone that wants to sell a book.

I'm sorry but until I see this interview confirmed by TLC, Mugglenet or someone other than the person that sells the books I'm going to consider this a Pilar of Storge.

ETA:

Q: What kind of importance has family still nowadays?

Nearly every child is happier in a family. Studies have shown that even a bad family situation is often better than a childhood in an orphanage. I am divorced myself and live only with my daughter. We are the smallest possible family unit. Families can be very different. I know gay parents, who do it very well. Family doesn't consist of a mother, a father and two kids anymore. What you need is a group of people who have decided to belong together and that love each other enough. Something like this is what Harry is searching for.

Well isn't JKR contradicting herself because in more that one interview I have heard how Harry had to be an orphan.

"Harry is smart and good at sports and a lot of things that other children would like to be, but children feel for him because he's lost his parents. If an author makes a character an orphan, few children will want to be an orphan, too. But it is a freeing thing, because the weight of parental expectation is lifted."

Link here. (http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/1999/0899-newsweek-jones.html)

With its galloping storyline, awesome abundance of magic, capricious humour and a wicked eye for detail, Rowling's rich mix of bravery, friendship and adventure centres on two classic ingredients of children's fiction - the hard-done-by orphan and a boarding school.

"Of course it's been done before," she says, "but Harry HAD to be an orphan - so that he's a free agent, with no fear of letting down his parents, disappointing them? and Hogwarts HAS to be a boarding school - half the important stuff happens at night! Then there's the security. Having a child of my own reinforces my belief that children above all want security, and that's what Hogwarts offers Harry." She does concede, on reflection, that with filthy dungeons, haunted toilets and murderous intruders, the security aspect of Hogwarts is perhaps "not immediately apparent" but, she adds briskly, "there are some very strict rules".

Link here. (http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/1999/0299-guardian-carey.htm)

Those are two conflicting things that go down to the core of this story.

Gily Ann

[Ste619]

Is Harry Potter ever going to fall in love with Hermione or is he going to fall in love with Ginny Weasley?
In Book IV Harry does decide he likes a girl, but it's not Hermione or Ginny. However, he's only 14, SO THERE'S PLENTY OF TIME for him to change his mind.

I've read this and i think a H/Hr or H/G Pairing could happen in maybe 1/2 way through HBP or the 7th Booj

[FlyingPhoenix]

According to esicardi's post, it was "published in German newspaper Frankfurter Rundschau on the 07/08/2000". If you communicate with the paper, I will pay for it.

Well, I had a look on their site and it seems they are very strict in their forms however I did e-mail them since I'm myself curious what people who I'm working indirectly for write for stuff. :D

[Moonstruck]

Couric brings up snogging and Jo lays in with Hermione and Ron, are you seriously suggesting that Jo was referring to another kind of tension, come on Moonstruck, don't let Couric's horrible interview technique cloud the issue, it was a question about romance and Jo brings up Hermione and Ron.

I realize that, but since we don't get an idea of what tension it could be, it's hard to guess. The tension could be Ron->Hr, but Hermione doesn't like Ron back, thus creating tension (which still has romance due to the R->Hr).

no the other difference in the dynamic is Ron and Hermione are best friends, Harry and Cho are not and never were. Lily never hated James as both Sirisu and Lupin explained, but what was going on between them again, frrom the pensieve, was similar not exact, thats my point, get me ;)

We are not sure what was going on between J/L because we only get one scene. That's why I don't like comparing the two. We have very little to go on. We don't know the nature of J/L relationship. Even their bickering isn't similar! J/L's seemed more vemonous than R/Hr's.

oh and as a side, do you think it would be easier to date a person who isn't your best friend or easier to date your best friend?
CD

I think both would be easier depending on the circumstances and the people involved.

[KatieJoy]

I've finallly decided to get in on this whole shipping thing! I'm for Harry/Ginny and Ron/Hermione, because it just makes so much sense! So I guess that means HMS Heron and HMS Chocolate?

[Krumpet]

Well, I had a look on their site and it seems they are very strict in their forms however I did e-mail them since I'm myself curious what people who I'm working indirectly for write for stuff. :D

It would be cool if this interview does exist. Jo is down right catty in it if this is real. Please keep us posted.:)

ETA:

:welcome: KatieJoy.

[Ste619]

I dunno at the moment i'm all 4 H/Hr, H/G or R/Hr But i remember what she said before that ther is gonna be a "little romance" for Harry in book 6/7 who with who knows

in My view There is Only 2 maybe 3 likely Girls

1.Luna(Single)
2.Ginny(I dunno about this she has already had a boyfriend and at the end of OoTP She is Going Out With Dean Thomas(Don't bite my head if i got name wrong)
3.Hermoine(This Is The One Im Confused About)

why u ask because when she finds about harry's Snog Session With Cho on the last DA Meeting Before Xmas She after hearing What Happened Immeadiately Goes To The Girls Dormitory and Writes To Victor Krum.(Was It Jealousy or just that harry and cho reminded her about Krum)
And Also The Kiss On The Cheek In GoF at the end of the book what was it for?
Also When Harry And Ron are Looking at The Vella She in MY VIEW get's a lil jealous That Harry + Ron are looking at other girls rather than her.

[Polychrome]

Well, I have a couple things to say on the matter:

1. If this quote does indeed exist as stated, then it's moot at the moment. 14 too young to be in love? Not news to me. There's a difference between the casual dating that goes on in middle/high school, and actually being in love. Nobody expected Ron to pull a Ring out on Hermione in Goblet of Fire.

No, Ron and Hermione are not in love in Goblet of Fire. They're checking each other out, and in Order of the Phoenix, they're still testing the waters between each other. There is a difference. Yule Brawl makes it obvious that Ron isn't even aware of his own feelings.

2. It must be remembered that this interview would likely have been translated from English to German. And now it has been translated back to English. Who knows what could have been lost from the interview itself?

So really, nothing amazing has been revealed by this interview as far as I'm concerned. Harry was chasing Cho and Ron was chasing Fleur. Maybe this would have been useful a couple years ago when people were still arguing Harry/Cho.

[IceKat55]

I've finallly decided to get in on this whole shipping thing! I'm for Harry/Ginny and Ron/Hermione, because it just makes so much sense! So I guess that means HMS Heron and HMS Chocolate?
:welcome: aboard!!

[Fury]

I've finallly decided to get in on this whole shipping thing! I'm for Harry/Ginny and Ron/Hermione, because it just makes so much sense! So I guess that means HMS Heron and HMS Chocolate?

Yes, Welcome Aboard...

You know... there are so many who like both Heron and Chocolate.. they could merge. HMS Obvious or HMS Meant To Be :clap:

[IceKat55]

I dunno at the moment i'm all 4 H/Hr, H/G or R/Hr But i remember what she said before that ther is gonna be a "little romance" for Harry in book 6/7 who with who knows

in My view There is Only 2 maybe 3 likely Girls

1.Luna(Single)
2.Ginny(I dunno about this she has already had a boyfriend and at the end of OoTP She is Going Out With Dean Thomas(Don't bite my head if i got name wrong)
3.Hermoine(This Is The One Im Confused About)

why u ask because when she finds about harry's Snog Session With Cho on the last DA Meeting Before Xmas She after hearing What Happened Immeadiately Goes To The Girls Dormitory and Writes To Victor Krum.(Was It Jealousy or just that harry and cho reminded her about Krum)
And Also The Kiss On The Cheek In GoF at the end of the book what was it for?
Also When Harry And Ron are Looking at The Vella She in MY VIEW get's a lil jealous That Harry + Ron are looking at other girls rather than her.
Some folks are of the opinion that Hermione is using that letter to Krum as a catalyst to provoke Ron's jealousy. She's alone, in the Common Room, with Ron at the time - - Harry comes in while she's writing the letter, with Ron lying at her feet.

The Kiss On The Cheek in GoF wasn't romantically set. Harry had just witnessed the death of Cedric, he had just survived a face-off with Voldemort and his Death Eaters, and his childhood is officially over. He's growing up, so is Hermione...they're very good friends, comfortable with each other, with no romantic tension bubbling between them to make them nervous around each other. Girls kiss their guy friends on the cheeks all the time. It does not have to have romantic tendencies. And Harry does not give the kiss another thought. :)

Yes, Hermione gets jealous of the Veela (Fleur in particular - - but only when Fleur seems to direct attention towards Ron - - not Harry.) Rowling seemed to write those scenes very specifically. :eyebrows:

And, :welcome:!! :)

[Fury]

Some folks are of the opinion that Hermione is using that letter to Krum as a catalyst to provoke Ron's jealousy. She's alone, in the Common Room, with Ron at the time - - Harry comes in while she's writing the letter, with Ron lying at her feet.

The Kiss On The Cheek in GoF wasn't romantically set. Harry had just witnessed the death of Cedric, he had just survived a face-off with Voldemort and his Death Eaters, and his childhood is officially over. He's growing up, so is Hermione...they're very good friends, comfortable with each other, with no romantic tension bubbling between them to make them nervous around each other. Girls kiss their guy friends on the cheeks all the time. It does not have to have romantic tendencies. And Harry does not give the kiss another thought. :)

Yes, Hermione gets jealous of the Veela (Fleur in particular) - - but only when Fleur seems to direct attention towards Ron - - not Harry.. Rowling seemed to write those scenes very specifically. :eyebrows:

And, :welcome:!! :)

I agree with all of this... there are so many hints toward Ron and Hermione. I am with you in the fact that Hermione is only trying to make Ron jealous and make him think Hermione has an interest in Krum. Not at all.. she is playing mind games with our little Ronniekins!

I frankly don't remember a certain kiss on the cheek at the end of GOF... so, I can't comment on this... but Hermione kissing Ron on the cheek... was more then for luck. We know Ron got all pink in the cheeks after that.

We know Hermione was jealous that Fleur was paying so much attention to Ron. Who knows maybe Ron knows Hermione is trying to make him jealous and he did the same to her.... HAHAHA! :rotfl:

[KatieJoy]

You know... there are so many who like both Heron and Chocolate.. they could merge. HMS Obvious or HMS Meant To Be :clap:

Ha, definately... someone needs to brainstorm better names though. HMS Obvious could be considered offensive... to people who are convinced that they are right :p

[Fury]

Ha, definately... someone needs to brainstorm better names though. HMS Obvious could be considered offensive... to people who are convinced that they are right :p

I know... I figured that out when putting that post up... so I put HMS Meant to Be!

[Daveydee]

I’m sorry esicardi, don’t take this personally, but I really do get a sadistic sense of gratification when I see or hear somebody make a bold, hasty statement and then tie themselves up in knots whilst struggling against the odds to defend it. If only the person making the statement spent a few minutes anticipating the likely rebuttals, before speaking in haste…well, how different life would be.

So when I dropped in to Kia’s LJ –and other places - this morning, I just knew that when I got home from work this evening, somebody would have posted that interview comment here and I was determined that I would respond to it.

Shipmates – lots of shipmates – have done a thorough job in rebutting it, so there’s not really much that I can add. But I don’t care – I’m going to have my say anyway.


Q: Is Harry going to fall in love ?

I don't believe that fourteen-year-olds can truly fall in love. There are other words for that. He is going to discover girls. He likes a girl, but she doesn't like him in the same way. That was very important for me. I wanted him to grow in a realistic manner.


I think this doesn't look well for Herons, since R/Hr is supposed to start when they were 14 (book 4). Everyone is in love with the wrong person indeed!

So Harry wasn’t “truly in love” with Cho. Hermione wasn’t “truly in love” with Krum. And Ron wasn’t “truly in love” with Fleur.

Is this not what Heronians have spent years trying to assert?


But also we can apply this to R/Hr, and when together to the quote that says that the answer about Hermione liking Ron more than a friend is in GoF, it is pretty damaging to your ship.

Well, you might want to “apply this” to R/Hr, but it’s quite clear that JKR wasn’t applying it to R/Hr. When she made the “wrong person” remarks (in three separate interviews) she was quite clear that Ron’s “wrong person” was Fleur – the “aiming too high” quote.


Also is an example of JKR being tricky. She says Cho didn't like Harry back, but that's not true, as we saw in book 5. In book 4 she liked Cedric better, but she liked Harry as well (remember Cho blushing when Harry asked her?).
Is this JKR being tricky? Or is this esicardi being tricky?

You’ve already tweaked JKR’s words here, very slightly. She didn’t say “Cho didn't like Harry back”. What she said was this:

“…but she [Cho] doesn't like him in the same way.”

That is very different, indeed. And I would say that that is a spot-on assessment (as of course it should be, coming as it does from the author). In OotP, Cho’s agenda was different from Harry’s. He liked/fancied/whatever Cho, period. Cho, on the other hand, saw Harry as someone whose arms she could fall into whilst still on the rebound from, and not at all over, the death of Cedric. Not that I’m saying that was her deliberate intention from the outset, but that is what certainly transpired. There’s no suggestion that Cho “didn’t like Harry” per se.


If Ron fancies Hermione but doesn't love her surely he could get over her and start liking someone else. That's the point.
That’s not the point, at all. That is an entirely different point, in no way, shape or form connected to JKR’s view that “I don't believe that fourteen-year-olds can truly fall in love”. Of course, an entirely different argument could be made for the hypothetical scenario that Ron could “get over” Hermione, but I don’t expect such a scenario to emerge. We would first need to see some real action between the two, and then we are into the whole “What brings them together? What sets them apart? Why? What happens next? Will there be a reconciliation? Is there another party involved? Who? Why? etc. etc. etc…” And I, for one, do not see the R/Hr sub-plot being that dominant.


If you see the context (H/C), JKR is kind of dooming romances that started at that age. So no matter how you twist it, it doesn't look well for R/Hr, not to mention it looks bad for H/G as well.
Nonsense. Firstly JKR is not dooming romances that start at 14 – she is merely making the point that the phrase “fall in love” is not particularly apt for people of that age group. I think very few would disagree with that assertion.

Secondly, I’m sure I need not point out that even if that is what JKR was implying, there was no romance between R/Hr or H/G at that age.

Far from “sinking” R/Hr, I should have thought that this particular quote quite nicely answers the eternal question posed by Harmionians – “If she’s writing R/Hr, why hasn’t it happened already?”


Bah! I’m just repeating what other Heronians have said. One more observation, though. I note that this particular question was about Harry and Cho, and it is immediately pounced on by the Harmonians in relation to R/Hr. It kind of reminds me of this question:

“Will Ron and Hermione ever get together?”

A question about Ron and Hermione. Ron. And. Hermione.

To which the answer was:

“Well—[Laughter.] What do you think? [Audience member: I think they will]. I’m not going to say. I can’t say, can I? I think that, by now, I’ve given quite a lot of clues on the subject. That is all I’m going to say. You will have to read between the lines on that one.”

And as if by magic, the Pumkinites, seem to think that JKR was talking about Harry and Hermione.


Oh, and JordanL

[i] So your telling me that because there's no concensus they're all wrong? I'm sorry, that's a logical fallacy. The contrapositive of Appeal to Common Practice.

The link you provided gave a particularly poor example of the type of fallacy you seem to think I committed. I always recommend this site (http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/index.htm) when discussing logical fallacies. You’ll see it referenced in many of my older posts.

In any case, you should have noticed that I was not asserting (at least not in that particular post) that either of those two views could not be correct. Merely that they were mutually exclusive, and by so being, prevented the formation of a consensus of opinion. My only assertion was that a reasonable degree of consensus should be forming in the interpretation of a simple and straightforward work which is over 70 per cent complete.

[The Leprechaun]

How?
JKR is saying that 14 years old don't fall in love. So Cho is wrong for Harry, as we already knew. But also we can apply this to R/Hr, and when together to the quote that says that the answer about Hermione liking Ron more than a friend is in GoF, it is pretty damaging to your ship. Also is an example of JKR being tricky. She says Cho didn't like Harry back, but that's not true, as we saw in book 5. In book 4 she liked Cedric better, but she liked Harry as well (remember Cho blushing when Harry asked her?).

Not if Hermione is 15, like I believe, though there is evidence both ways. Plus, despite the fact that it might have some implications towards Ron and Hermione, the question was about Harry (though I will admit that it could reflect onto Ron and Hermione). Secondly, in GoF, Hermione was after Krum JKR says this right after one of her two "after the wrong people" quotes and Ron was aiming a bit high for chasing after Fleur. Now, I don't think they have fallen "in love", but have started to like each other and in OotP they start to try to understand those feelings. I expect that in HBP they might actually start to date or something close to that and then in book 7 start to really fall "in love". Plus, "like as more then a freind" does not equal "in love", but unlike "very platonic" it could easily grow into something, whether or not it last.

[Polychrome]

It all just keeps going in circles!!!!!!!!!!
:wow:

Welcome to the love thread. :D

[monkydude]

I think that harry and hermione are going to go out

[Moonstruck]

I think that harry and hermione are going to go out

:welcome: to Harmony! :D

[GilyAnn]

One more observation, though. I note that this particular question was about Harry and Cho, and it is immediately pounced on by the Harmonians in relation to R/Hr. It kind of reminds me of this question:

“Will Ron and Hermione ever get together?”

A question about Ron and Hermione. Ron. And. Hermione.

To which the answer was:

“Well—[Laughter.] What do you think? [Audience member: I think they will]. I’m not going to say. I can’t say, can I? I think that, by now, I’ve given quite a lot of clues on the subject. That is all I’m going to say. You will have to read between the lines on that one.”

And as if by magic, the Pumkinites, seem to think that JKR was talking about Harry and Hermione.

You know I was never able to understand how can I question of Ron and Hermione that doesn't include anything about Harry it suddenly refers to H/Hr.

Far from “sinking” R/Hr, I should have thought that this particular quote quite nicely answers the eternal question posed by Harmionians – “If she’s writing R/Hr, why hasn’t it happened already?”

:rotfl: :tu:

Gily Ann

[Krumpet]

A quick question to any and all Harmonies, if the quotes went the other way, if lets say Jo had said "Will Ron and Hermione date? No. Their very platonic." Or if Jo had said there "more tension" around H/H what would you make of the quotes then?

Personally my ships weren't set in stone when I first started posting here, since then they've gotten a bit more rigid. But if I'd come here first and found out that Jo had said that about H/H I think I'd have switched ships. But I digress, if you had the quotes stacked in you favor would you still interpret them in the same way?

[The Leprechaun]

Oh, don't worry. I was just asking for you to clear something up for me. :)

So Harry liked Cho in GOF

And Hermione liked Ron in GOF

Now since JK failed H/C in OOTP because they weren't 'in love,' wouldn't that mean R/Hr fails because of the same reasons?

And since a lot of Harmonians argue that Hermione statred to fall in love with Harry because of her talking about Harry with Krum, that seems to me that Harmony would also be sunk. Maybe, esicardi found the every ship is sunk quote. The "wrong person" quote doesn't sink Heron or Harmony, but in theory this one does for both arguments.

[Moonstruck]

A quick question to any and all Harmonies, if the quotes went the other way, if lets say Jo had said "Will Ron and Hermione date? No. Their very platonic." Or if Jo had said there "more tension" around H/H what would you make of the quotes then?

Personally my ships weren't set in stone when I first started posting here, since then they've gotten a bit more rigid. But if I'd come here first and found out that Jo had said that about H/H I think I'd have switched ships. But I digress, if you had the quotes stacked in you favor would you still interpret them in the same way?

I think I would treat the quotes the same way I do now. I treat all of JK's quotes (shipping related or not) with caution so I don't see why I would treat shipping quotes differently if they went H/Hr.

And since a lot of Harmonians argue that Hermione statred to fall in love with Harry because of her talking about Harry with Krum, that seems to me that Harmony would also be sunk. Maybe, esicardi found the every ship is sunk quote. The "wrong person" quote doesn't sink Heron or Harmony, but in theory this one does for both arguments.

Really? I was under the impression that it was after her kiss to Harry (which means after GOF) that she began to fall in love.

[delemtri]

Great post again Daveydee.

Really? I was under the impression that it was after her kiss to Harry (which means after GOF) that she began to fall in love.

And I figured it was probably during her kiss to Ron. ;)

[mrs_bombadil]

Okay, something occured to me today...and the more I think about it the more ... well, let me just lay the ground work.

Royal Albert Hall Appearance
June 26 2003
SF: Now, just a personal question because you seem to know, are we ever going meet Hermione's parents?
JKR: Well we've seen them briefly but they're dentists so they're not that interesting
http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2003/0626-alberthall-fry.htm

World Book Day Chat
April 4, 2004
Sirius Kase: Will we get to know the Grangers? Is Hermione an only child?
JK Rowling replies -> I always planned that Hermione would have a younger sister but she's never made an appearance and somehow it feels like it might be too late now.
http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrwbd.shtml

Edinburgh Book Festival
August 15, 2004
Does Hermione have any brothers or sisters?
No, she doesn’t. When I first made up Hermione I gave her a younger sister, but she was very hard to work in. The younger sister was not supposed to go to Hogwarts. She was supposed to remain a Muggle. It was a sideline that didn’t work very well and it did not have a big place in the story. I have deliberately kept Hermione’s family in the background. You see so much of Ron’s family so I thought that I would keep Hermione’s family, by contrast, quite ordinary. They are dentists, as you know. They are a bit bemused by their odd daughter but quite proud of her all the same.
http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrebf.shtml

If Hermione is to be the love of Harry's life, why is her family so unimportant?

[Melcb98]

Really? I was under the impression that it was after her kiss to Harry (which means after GOF) that she began to fall in love.
Well, your not the only Harmonian. You may have thought that (BTW- its still GOF), but others have stated that Harry and Hermione started to have feelings for each other in GOF- which means, if Hr/R are sunk, so are H/Hr. Thats the way it goes!

Personally, I don't think that quotes sinks either of the couples- but thats just me. I have only thought it meant bad news for H/C, R/F, and H/K.

[The Leprechaun]

Really? I was under the impression that it was after her kiss to Harry (which means after GOF) that she began to fall in love.

So, Hermione talking about Harry to Krum doesn't mean a thing to you? interesting. It isn't a sign of her interest in Harry? Interesting.

[Heatherhobbit]

If Hermione is to be the love of Harry's life, why is her family so unimportant?


Exactly!

In fact, if it wasn't for Ron's keen observations and comments, we wouldn't know much about Hermione. While there are far too many examples for me to list, I'm sure some people have noticed that a lot of positive Hermione-centric exposition comes from Ron's dialogue.

[Sienna]

Delemtri:
Sienna, I noticed you never replied to my last post in our former conversation. Would you like me to try a bit harder to explain my view of the Potterverse (and, by extension, my view on the power of aesthetic creation to lead to entirely new, temporary worlds)?

Actually, I would. It sounds very interesting. (I didn’t respond because I logged off and went home).

Angua:
It seems to me that once you broaden your consideration of the anima figure to this extent, you have lost any suggestion of, or need for, integration by sexual pairing with the anima figure.

Who said that sexual integration was the only way to symbolically integrate with the anima? Leia represents the anima in Star Wars, does Luke sexually integrate with her? No… even when she does in the beginning represent the ‘longed-for’ inner feminine. Sexual integration is only one way to integrate.

"The anima" becomes Everyfemale, and some aspect of her is reflected in -- literally -- every female that the hero encounters.

Not every female. Just some. Just as archetypal characteristics can sometimes be spread across a number of characters.

We can easily argue that Luna is Harry's anima, the Beatrice figure who will (I suspect) be his guide for his "Harrowing of Hell" experience beyond the veil. We can make an excellent case for Ginny as anima, as Harry followed her into the underworld and battled the Shadow for her soul. Bellatrix Lestrange is an archtypal Dark Lady "temptress" who lures Harry on to an encounter with Voldemort. Moaning Myrtle is literally Harry's guide and portal-opener twice -- for his Return to the Womb trip to the Chamber of Secrets and through the underwater labyrinth of the Second Task. Hedwig is the winged symbol of Harry's soul.

Correct. (Although Ginny can be more correctly said to be the Hogwart’s anima as her psychic rape represents a threat to Hogwarts rather than Harry).

You say that the anima archetype "has become more and more focused" on Hermione and that "in her most positive expression, the anima is represented by Hermione." It seems to me that what that really means is "Hermione is the girl Harry knows best" and "Hermione is the girl who helps Harry the most." If every female is Harry's anima, you can call the one with the biggest role in his life the main anima.

No. Out of all the shifting representations of the anima in the HP series it is in Hermione that it becomes solidified. While it has shifted, as the narrative has warranted, it is Hermione who embodies the anima archetype most consistently. In OotP it becomes even further focused as three key things happen – she appears in a very symbolic dream, she begins to say Voldemort’s name and Harry begins to associate his voice of reason with Hermione.

Rather, we fall in love with a member of the opposite sex who is elusive and hard to win. Odysseus sought Penelope, not Athena. Perseus's desire was for Andromeda, not Athena or the Graeae. We could tell that Theseus would play "love 'em and leave 'em" with Ariadne, because she was not the object of his quest at the center of the Labyrinth, but a helper at the beginning of it.

No. Men project the image of the anima on the females in their lives just as women project the image of the animus on the men in their life. In the early stages of the unintegrated psyche, the anima can be destructive, elusive and hard to win. (This is the ‘treat ‘em mean, keep ‘em keen’ phenomenon). As the psyche heals itself and begins to integrate the various aspects of itself into a wholistic whole, so too does the anima become a healthier representation of the inner woman. She ceases to become elusive and becomes a guide, map and voice of wisdom. It is in this final representation that the man is able to form his healthiest spiritual relationship with a woman embodying not just eros, not just philia but agape.

The anima can manifest in every feminine aspect from mother to teacher to monster to crone, but to identify Harry's eventual love interest, we need to find one particular form -- his erotic anima.

Perhaps the following will help to clarify the concept of the anima. It is taken from http://www.cgjungpage.org/:

Anima. The inner feminine side of a man. The anima is both a personal complex and an archetypal image of woman in the male psyche. It is an unconscious factor incarnated anew in every male child, and is responsible for the mechanism of projection.

This is the simplest definition of the archetype that I’ve read.

There is [in man] an imago not only of the mother but of the daughter, the sister, the beloved, the heavenly goddess, and the chthonic Baubo.

So too in Harry Potter, the anima does shift in the early stages of Harry’s journey, manifesting itself in characters such as Lily and Cho.

The anima is personified in dreams by images of women ranging from seductress to spiritual guide.

From Cho to Hermione.

As an inner personality, the anima is complementary to the persona and stands in a compensatory relationship to it.

Must as Hermione compensates for Harry’s weaknesses, balancing his rashness with rationality and his action with thought. Here is the important part however:

Jung distinguished four broad stages of the anima, analogous to levels of the Eros cult described in the late classical period. He personified them as Eve, Helen, Mary and Sophia.

This is what I mean when I say that in the Harry Potter narrative, the anima changes shape as the hero gets closer to being ready to face the shadow.

In the first stage, Eve, the anima is indistinguishable from the personal mother. The man cannot function well without a close tie to a woman.

Clearly Lily in the narrative. This reaches its zenith in PoA when the Dementor attacks force Harry to relive his mother’s death.

In the second stage, personified in the historical figure of Helen of Troy, the anima is a collective and ideal sexual image (“All is dross that is not Helen”-Marlowe).

Cho… of course. This reaches its zenith in Harry’s final confrontation with her and his DA dream, which represents symbolically the transformation of the image of the anima.

The third stage, Mary, manifests in religious feelings and a capacity for lasting relationships.

My feeling here is that the ‘Mary’ anima is dually personified here in Ginny and Luna, with whom Harry forges more concrete relationships in OotP. They both serve similar functions in OotP in Harry’s life.

In the fourth stage, as Sophia (called Wisdom in the Bible), a man’s anima functions as a guide to the inner life, mediating to consciousness the contents of the unconscious. She cooperates in the search for meaning…

This is where the anima becomes focused, in her final form, in the character of Hermione. In the DA dream, she appears to mediate the contents of Harry’s unconscious to the conscious, she is the guide on Harry’s search for self. Her voice and reason become integrated when Harry begins to identify her voice in his head. She begins to mirror Harry as she overcomes her fear of speaking Voldemort’s name and much more.

Ideally, a man’s anima proceeds naturally through these stages as he grows older.

In other words, in the narrative the image of the anima transforms until it becomes focused in OotP very solidly in Hermione.

[A man’s] ideal of marriage is so arranged that his wife has to take over the magical role of the mother. Under the cloak of the ideally exclusive marriage he is really seeking his mother’s protection, and thus he plays into the hands of his wife’s possessive instincts. His fear of the dark incalculable power of the unconscious gives his wife an illegitimate authority over him, and forges such a dangerously close union that the marriage is permanently on the brink of explosion from internal tension.

Here is an interesting thing. Doesn’t the above seem to very much resemble Ron’s own relationship with Hermione. Hermione is compared to Molly several times in OotP. Ron projects the mother image onto Hermione but the relationship is permanently on ‘the brink of explosion from internal tension’. It makes sense for Ron to have developed feelings for Hermione, projecting as he does his anima (still in the Eve stages) on her. On Ron’s own journey to self-worth, this image of his internal woman must change in order for him to complete his journey. It will eventually shift and change as he enters a healthier relationship with the anima. So too will the image of the anima change for Ron from Hermione to a different character (in my opinion, of course). The statement below supports this:

The psychological priority in the first half of life is for a man to free himself from the anima fascination of the mother.

Angua:
She should be elusive and mysterious, one who leads him like a bird through the forest or a scarce-glimpsed will o' wisp, not one who gives him a good solid grounding in Summoning Spells and sends him on his way with a good-luck pat on the back.

No. She is elusive and mysterious but only in the early stages of development when the relationship between man and anima is young (much like Hermione is for Ron). As the man matures, so too does the image of the anima become solidified not diversified. (Besides, one can hardly call what Hermione does for Harry giving him a ‘good luck pat on the back’. But that is another debate). ;)

Heatherhobbit:
Are you sure that you want to use Jung's theories? He's a bit of a joke.

Is that supposed to be an argument? A bit weak don’t you think? If you want to have discussion about whether Jung was actually right or not, then that is another debate altogether. This discussion is canvassing the application of Jung’s theories to the Harry Potter narrative, not Jung himself.

However, I don’t find him ‘a bit of a joke’ and find this a poor argument. Given how solidly the concepts of ‘collective unconscious’ and ‘archetypes’ have embedded themselves in western thinking, to suggest that he is a bit of joke Heatherhobbit is frankly … a bit of a joke.

Sienna

[Moonstruck]

So, Hermione talking about Harry to Krum doesn't mean a thing to you? interesting. It isn't a sign of her interest in Harry? Interesting.

The way I understood the theory was the Krum confronted Hermione about Harry, but Hermione denied it at the time. Krum told her to find out for sure if she had no feelings for Harry or not. So when Hermione kissed Harry, it was for two reasons: one, to support Harry and two, to find out if she had feelings or not. Hermione pondered the kiss and came to the conclusion that she did have feelings for Harry, but this was after GOF.

[Krumpet]

If Hermione is to be the love of Harry's life, why is her family so unimportant?

A very good question. Good catch. :)

That is one thing that makes me hopeful for the Chocolate, personally I like the thought of One Big Weasley Family; I think Harry deserves it after all he's been through.

[Sienna]

mrs_bombadil:
If Hermione is to be the love of Harry's life, why is her family so unimportant?

If Ginny is to the love of Harry's life, why was she an afterthought:

From jkrowling.com:
Fred and George have red hair because Ron does; in other words, I created Ron as a character first, then invented his brothers and sister.

That means very little.

Sienna

[Melcb98]

Sienna-
Though I haven't been following the conversation- I have noticed you talking about Jung's theories over the past couple of days, and I was wondering if you knew that JKR followed his philosophies? If so, carry on. But, if not then why are you basing so much on this if you are not sure that this is what JKR intends? Just wondering.

[delemtri]

Sienna-
Though I haven't been following the conversation- I have noticed you talking about Jung's theories over the past couple of days, and I was wondering if you knew that JKR followed his philosophies? If so, carry on. But, if not then why are you basing so much on this if you are not sure that this is what JKR intends? Just wondering.

She's suggesting that JKR's usage of mythology is in concurrence with Jungian archetypes (which fit in with nearly all mythology themselves).

Sienna - I am trying to think of how exactly I want to word my owl to you - I sent one to a few people a week or so ago, but I've grown unhappy with the way it turned out. I am working on it though!

[Krumpet]

If Ginny is to the love of Harry's life, why was she an afterthought:

From jkrowling.com:
Fred and George have red hair because Ron does; in other words, I created Ron as a character first, then invented his brothers and sister.

That means very little.

Sienna


The problem with this counter is that this was in the very early conceptual phase of the books. Before they where written. Since they've been written Jo has made a conscious decision not to have Hermione's family be important in the books. Why did she do this if presumably one day the Grangers are going to be his family?

[The Leprechaun]

The way I understood the theory was the Krum confronted Hermione about Harry, but Hermione denied it at the time. Krum told her to find out for sure if she had no feelings for Harry or not. So when Hermione kissed Harry, it was for two reasons: one, to support Harry and two, to find out if she had feelings or not. Hermione pondered the kiss and came to the conclusion that she did have feelings for Harry, but this was after GOF.

But, a decent amount of Harmonians believe that this is an example of Hermione's interest in Harry. Plus, if she is 14 (which is debatable), it still counts. She would be 14 when she made the move and by many Harmonian assertions, that the hug and prefect scene are examples of Hermione's interst in Harry when she was still 14. And if you want to take this further Red Moon is doomed as Luna is still 14 when she has her crush on Ron. We can continue this for quite a while into OotP, which would include the Ron's Making the team Party, where Hermione has her hopefulness about Harry helping her out with the hats. So, a lot of Harmonian evidence still has to be thrown out as well, because it doesn't come after that "Age-Line" of 15 years of age.

[Melcb98]

She's suggesting that JKR's usage of mythology is in concurrence with Jungian archetypes (which fit in with nearly all mythology themselves).
OK, but do we know for sure that is what JKR is doing? Is there a quote somewhere, has JKR mentioned it?

[IceKat55]

If Ginny is to the love of Harry's life, why was she an afterthought:

From jkrowling.com:
Fred and George have red hair because Ron does; in other words, I created Ron as a character first, then invented his brothers and sister.

That means very little.
The order of progression had to take some form. Rowling has been very clear on this - - she invented Harry first, then Ron & Hermione (his 'sidekicks', in Rowling's own words), and other characters took shape. How does this prove that either Ginny, or Hermione, are to be "Harry's girl"? For all we know, Rowling intended 'the sidekicks' to be together from the word Go. And Harry's LI would then, naturally, have come later.

Sorry...not a strong argument for either side, IMO. :)

[Moonstruck]

But, a decent amount of Harmonians believe that this is an example of Hermione's interest in Harry. Plus, if she is 14 (which is debatable), it still counts. She would be 14 when she made the move and by many Harmonian assertions, that the hug and prefect scene are examples of Hermione's interst in Harry when she was still 14. And if you want to take this further Red Moon is doomed as Luna is still 14 when she has her crush on Ron. We can continue this for quite a while into OotP, which would include the Ron's Making the team Party, where Hermione has her hopefulness about Harry helping her out with the hats. So, a lot of Harmonian evidence still has to be thrown out as well, because it doesn't come after that "Age-Line" of 15 years of age.

When is the knitting scene? Is it after Hermione's birthday? Or before?

[delemtri]

OK, but do we know for sure that is what JKR is doing? Is there a quote somewhere, has JKR mentioned it?

It's a psychoanalytic theory; if she's doing it, it's unconscious. Collectively unconscious, even.

Aren't we going a bit all out on the 14 stuff? I mean, are we really trying to find out which scenes happened when which characters were 14? And do we really think that any couples that developed while the characters involved were 14 or younger are doomed? Isn't that a bit illogical?

[The Leprechaun]

When is the knitting scene? Is it after Hermione's birthday? Or before?

Way before, it is somewhere near the 7th to 11th. So, there goes a lot of your evidence, if 15 is the needed age to be "in love".

[LilypadLollipop]

:blush: this is my first post so I'm very nervous....

dum dee dum dum... well, i've been reading all the posts and i did view esicardi's german statement thing and i translated it. And it just said that J.K. doesn't believe in love at 14. Nowhere does she say that she doesn't believe that someone can fancy someone at 14 and then fall in love with them.

Sorry if this has already been said.

:p

[Melcb98]

It's a psychoanalytic theory; if she's doing it, it's unconscious. Collectively unconscious, even.
If its not canon- why spend so much time on it? Canon evidence is whats important (IMO).

[Luna25]

That is one thing that makes me hopeful for the Chocolate, personally I like the thought of One Big Weasley Family; I think Harry deserves it after all he's been through.

So you're saying that Harry would be a good addition to the family. Of course, Harry is considered a sort of surrgate son to the Weasly family. He sort of considers Mr. and Mrs. Weasley to be his adoptive parents. NAd he gets a family who loves him, unlike the Dursleys. But that doesn't mean harry will decide to date and eventually marry Ginny. She's a nice girl, but I'm not sure if Harry wants to join the family. there have been times when he is a trifle annoyed by Mrs. Weasley mothering him.

[delemtri]

:blush: this is my first post so I'm very nervous....

dum dee dum dum... well, i've been reading all the posts and i did view esicardi's german statement thing and i translated it. And it just said that J.K. doesn't believe in love at 14. Nowhere does she say that she doesn't believe that someone can fancy someone at 14 and then fall in love with them.

Sorry if this has already been said.

:p

We've been trying to say it, but I don't think we managed it so clearly and concisely. Welcome!

PS. The Ron in your signature looks strangely like Vash from the anime Trigun...

[Melcb98]

there have been times when he is a trifle annoyed by Mrs. Weasley mothering him
Well, there are reasons for that:
- Harry hates to be told what to do, and wanted to be a part of everything
- Harry is not used to that, at all.
- Harry is 15- teenagers, in general, hate that.

[LilypadLollipop]

hm... i'd love to see a whole big happy weasley family!
i do however think that Harry and Luna are a great couple, just in the last chapter and all. However having harry and ginny wouldn't be too bad either ;)

[The Leprechaun]

Aren't we going a bit all out on the 14 stuff? I mean, are we really trying to find out which scenes happened when which characters were 14? And do we really think that any couples that developed while the characters involved were 14 or younger are doomed? Isn't that a bit illogical?

I agree with this, it is illogical. But, since some Harmonians are still playing as though it could be the of Heron, then I will show why it could easily be the end of Harmony. Therefore, it will get us no where fast. Both sparks on Hermione's side would have easily happened when she was 14 (or 15 IMO), so both ships would be sinking a bit fast right now. That is why this is a useless quote as it doesn't really fit with canon evidence (either way) and it doesn't rule out anything

[delemtri]

If its not canon- why spend so much time on it? Canon evidence is whats important (IMO).

:-)

[LilypadLollipop]

We've been trying to say it, but I don't think we managed it so clearly and concisely. Welcome!

PS. The Ron in your signature looks strangely like Vash from the anime Trigun...

thanks for the welcome! true... it does look like Vash... hm :scared:

[Polychrome]

I think that if Hermione has to take an apparition test in the next book, we'll know the age for sure.

[delemtri]

I have a question for everyone - H/H, H/G, and H/L. How will Harry's LI help him deal with the prophecy? I haven't gotten a satisfactory answer from *anyone* and nor have I given one. How do we see the LI helping to bear Harry's burden, or urging him on, or giving him knowledge or whatnot?

[The Leprechaun]

hm... i'd love to see a whole big happy weasley family!
i do however think that Harry and Luna are a great couple, just in the last chapter and all. However having harry and ginny wouldn't be too bad either ;)

:welcome: to the HMS Heron (or Ron and Hermione).

[LilypadLollipop]

:welcome: to the HMS Heron (or Ron and Hermione).
thanks for the welcome too!
everyone is so nice here!
:blush:

[delemtri]

thanks for the welcome too!
everyone is so nice here!
:blush:

No, we're not. Seriously. Things get vicious and I myself fly off the handle regularly.

[Sienna]

Melcb98:
If its not canon- why spend so much time on it? Canon evidence is whats important (IMO).

It's an interpretation of canon Mel. As I am interested in Jung and I am interested in Harry Potter I combined the two out of interest to see if I could gain insights into the development of plots, character functions and narrative threads through the Harry Potter series by applying Jungian analysis to the text. That's all. Some prefer and enjoy analysing canon from within its own reality, I enjoy analysing it from outside. Both are relevant. And sometimes looking at things from a distance uncovers patterns you don't notice if you are considering the body of text from the inside. Those who don't enjoy it or consider it relevant are free to explore other ways of looking at the canon.

delemtri:
Sienna - I am trying to think of how exactly I want to word my owl to you - I sent one to a few people a week or so ago, but I've grown unhappy with the way it turned out. I am working on it though!

Looking forward to it delemtri!

Sienna

[LilypadLollipop]

and I know that everyone probably doesn't care, but... if all 14 year olds fail then wouldn't harmony fail too? i mean, lots of websites say they have a relationship in gof

[The Leprechaun]

thanks for the welcome too!
everyone is so nice here!
:blush:

Wait for the wolf to come out of the sheep's clothing. ;)

[FredFancier]

If Ginny is to the love of Harry's life, why was she an afterthought:
----------------------------------------------------------
From jkrowling.com:
Fred and George have red hair because Ron does; in other words, I created Ron as a character first, then invented his brothers and sister.

That means very little.

If you are using that as evidence then harry wont be with anyone, as he created him first, then his world and other characters.

[Melcb98]

and I know that everyone probably doesn't care, but... if all 14 year olds fail then wouldn't harmony fail too? i mean, lots of websites say they have a relationship in gof
Thats one the points some of us have been trying to make!

[LilypadLollipop]

If you are using that as evidence then harry wont be with anyone, as he created him first, then his world and other characters.

:tu: ditto

[mrs_bombadil]

If Ginny is to the love of Harry's life, why was she an afterthought:

From jkrowling.com:
Fred and George have red hair because Ron does; in other words, I created Ron as a character first, then invented his brothers and sister.

That means very little.

Sienna

First, if the "love of his life" is not the main focus, as I believe friendship is, that's one very possible reason right there. I don't think his romantic life is the main point of all this.

Second, the Weasleys as a family, which we know to be very important to Harry, extend from Ron. If she knew that the friendship and the sidekicks were most important, creation of the rest of Harry's growth would flow from that.

Third, I of course disagree that it means very little. Hermione's family has become expendable and I don't see how that is consistent with harmony's theories. Please explain to me how they could be?

[delemtri]

First, if the "love of his life" is not the main focus, as I believe friendship is, that's one very possible reason right there. I don't think his romantic life is the main point of all this.

Second, the Weasleys as a family, which we know to be very important to Harry, extend from Ron. If she knew that the friendship and the sidekicks were most important, creation of the rest of Harry's growth would flow from that.

Third, I of course disagree that it means very little. Hermione's family has become expendable and I don't see how that is consistent with harmony's theories. Please explain to me how they could be?

Agreed - "afterthought" is an unfair characterization. Pretty much everything in the story is an afterthought compared to Ron - probably Sirius and Remus, the Malfoys, maybe even Dumbledore and Hagrid.

[dark_kneazle]

Originally Posted by Sienna
If Ginny is to the love of Harry's life, why was she an afterthought:

From jkrowling.com:
Fred and George have red hair because Ron does; in other words, I created Ron as a character first, then invented his brothers and sister.

That means very little.

Sienna

I think that if it would be this meaning, Ginny she would be ideally placed as an after thought, if Harry met the love of his life and fell for her begiing of book one the ppint would soon exhaust itself. The main story of Harry Potter won't be some small romance, I believe it goes a lot deeper then that. Meeting Ginny late on means that she has a controled time for the romance and that it's not something ever so centre staged.

Also, I agree a lot with what Mrsbombadil says. Oh and please, I love your icon, do you have a link to that interveiw, if been hunting for so long.

[LilypadLollipop]

j.k. rowling has always said that romance is not one of the major things about the books. so it doesn't really matter if Ginny was thought of after Ron (as was probably Hagrid and Dumbledore!)

[dark_kneazle]

Surely everyone after HArry would have been an after thought, she said he just popped into her head on the train. As people would have said, Ron would have been added rather quickly because of the immense influence he would have on Harry's life and then the numerous other's after Ron.

Anyway why can't the love of Harry's life be an after thought, I mean plots can change all the time in the making, in my own plot i've moved the charector back and forth from being a boy or girl and occationally a donkey; JK may have sat down one day and suddenly thought, why don't I give Ron a little sister to be HArry girlfriend.

[mrs_bombadil]

Oh and please, I love your icon, do you have a link to that interveiw, if been hunting for so long.

Nobody seems to have a copy of the entire piece but here is a link to that question being answered:

http://bit-of-ivory.com/goodshipclip.mov

The transcript of the interview can be found at Quick Quotes on TLC:

http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2003/0620-dateline-couric.htm

[dark_kneazle]

Thank you Mrs Bombadil, I think I origanally saw it on sugarquill or something and then when told to prove it's existence I could never find it again *sob*. But now I'm happy again, this interveiw made me so happy when i saw it.

[Krumpet]

So you're saying that Harry would be a good addition to the family. Of course, Harry is considered a sort of surrgate son to the Weasly family. He sort of considers Mr. and Mrs. Weasley to be his adoptive parents. NAd he gets a family who loves him, unlike the Dursleys. But that doesn't mean harry will decide to date and eventually marry Ginny. She's a nice girl, but I'm not sure if Harry wants to join the family. there have been times when he is a trifle annoyed by Mrs. Weasley mothering him.

It's not the reason that I ship the Chocolate. I just see it as a nice perk, a good fringe benefit, :). Personally though Harry has on occasion gotten slightly annoyed by Mrs. Weasley I think he'd be over the moon to really be a member of the Weasley family. It did make him feel very good when Molly said he was as good as her son. I also agree with you that the Weasleys already to in many ways view him as a member of their family. I think making it official would just be a good thing for Harry. :)

[LilypadLollipop]

It's not the reason that I ship the Chocolate. I just see it as a nice perk, a good fringe benefit, :). Personally though Harry has on occasion gotten slightly annoyed by Mrs. Weasley I think he'd be over the moon to really be a member of the Weasley family. It did make him feel very good when Molly said he was as good as her son. I also agree with you that the Weasleys already to in many ways view him as a member of their family. I think making it official would just be a good thing for Harry. :)

i am neither a h/g or h/l, i support both ships. but i do think that Krumpet has a point. Harry does love being in the burrow and hanging with the Wealeys. Who knows...? :eyebrows:

[Sienna]

dark_kneazle:
Surely everyone after HArry would have been an after thought, she said he just popped into her head on the train. As people would have said, Ron would have been added rather quickly because of the immense influence he would have on Harry's life and then the numerous other's after Ron.

Anyway why can't the love of Harry's life be an after thought, I mean plots can change all the time in the making, in my own plot i've moved the charector back and forth from being a boy or girl and occationally a donkey; JK may have sat down one day and suddenly thought, why don't I give Ron a little sister to be HArry girlfriend.

Despite how illogical it would actually be for a character as important as the hero’s love interest to be nothing more than an afterthought (ie. an extension to a supporting character), my purpose in posting the comment was not to get everyone in a tizzy. My purpose was to show that the original ‘evidence’ given re Hermione’s family was meaningless just as the assertion that the afterthought comment completely negates the possibility of Ginny being the LI is meaningless.

Neither of those small titbits of information mean anything. Generally speaking the hero’s love interest is one of the main characters of a book, but yes plots can change. (Having said that, JKR has told us that she has had the whole plot/ structure figured out from the beginning with only a few changes around GoF needed to keep the series on track. In addition, family members are usually created to give characters background and not necessarily as part of the story proper. However, given the importance of the Weasley Family to the plot, one would think that their creation would have been important as far as supporting family members goes).

Sienna

[shohra]

But according to the interview Esicardi provided, JK said she believes 14 year olds don't fall in love and that Harry likes a girl. And we all know what happened to that girl in OOTP.
And according to Jk they are all in love with the wrong poeple like harmonians keep repeating so which is it .Does JK think in love as the real thing or is crushing on some one like Ron did on fluer qulify as in love

So what about Hermione's jealously or Ron's jealously? What about Hermione's call for Ron to ask her out? What about JK's quote of the answer to Hermione liking Ron more than a friend was in GOF?
What about Harry's jealously when Cho was with Cedric was he in love or did he only fancey her which can be said for Ron and Hermione they fancey each other