CoSForums Archive - Who will fall in love with whom? v40

Dementia

December 12th, 2004, 2:42 am

Fred and George were scared of hermione, I dont see how she needed defending

Do you think Hermione is afraid of Malfoy? I don't.

You honestly think that because harry defended hermione in their third year means they are meant to be?

You must have me confused with someone else. Where have I said Harry and Hermione were meant to be together?

Also I'd like to say atleast Ron was mad about Scabbers- a life, Harry was mad about a piece of wood.

Acctually Ron was mad about a piece a wood too. In fact it was Ron who initally rounded onto Hermione first about the Firebolt. Pretty interresting since it wasn't even his broom.

Also its funny, when malfoy is rude to hermione harry sits there silently or occasionally says :"shut up" whearas Ron says "Let me at him! I'll kill him with my barehands!"

But Ron does that all the time. Where Harry has a saving people thing Ron can always be counted on to be defending someone to a mutual adversery. Whether they need it or not. I just don't see Ron defending Hermione to Malfoy as ship evidence. Until Ron defends Hermione to Harry or the Twins, (three people he looks up to) whether she needs the defense or not, I'll be open to that as evidence. Like I pointed out before it means more to defend someone to your friends than it does your enemies.

FredFancier

December 12th, 2004, 2:47 am

Do you think Hermione is afraid of Malfoy? I don't.
true, but its not as if Fred and George insulted hermione.
Malfoy did insult hermione and harry did nothing. Ron on the other hand-did.
You must have me confused with someone else. Where have I said Harry and Hermione were meant to be together?
Ok, you never said that and I was angry about something not on the thread, im sorry.
Acctually Ron was mad about a piece a wood too. In fact it was Ron who initally rounded onto Hermione first about the Firebolt. Pretty interresting since it wasn't even his broom.
If harry was not mad then he would have continued to talk to her. But there was a point where both boys werent talking to her.
But Ron does that all the time. Where Harry has a saving people thing Ron can always be counted on to be defending someone to a mutual adversery. Whether they need it or not. I just don't see Ron defending Hermione to Malfoy as ship evidence. Until Ron defends Hermione to Harry or the Twins, (three people he looks up to) whether she needs the defense or not, I'll be open to that as evidence. Like I pointed out before it means more to defend someone to your friends than it does your enemies
except how could ron defend her when hermione is doing the persecuting (spelling is off im sorry) I dont understand how hermione could have been defended when there was nothing to defend about.

mrs_bombadil

December 12th, 2004, 2:47 am

Mrs. Bombadil,

Here is the text:

"then a jet of red light flew from one of the Death Eater's wands and hit her (Ginny) squarely in the face. She keeled over sideways and lay there unconscious".

Next we have heroic Neville shouting "Stubefy" at the Deatheaters and they shoot a stunning spell at Neville missing him by inches. And the usually heroic Harry does nothing. JKR chose to write the scene in this manner and it was definitely not to foreshadow H/G and the depths of caring/emotion Harry has for Ginny. How ironic would it be to have Ginny who hero-worshipped Harry for years to eventually fall for the unlikeliest of heros- Neville. JKR could have easily debunked N/G instead of N/L because that ship does not have any rabid shippers. But she chose not to and after reading OOTP; I think I know why.

Jennifer M.

I asked for ALL the text because I wanted the context. You didn't show it. Prior to this, Harry was trying to get the tentacles off of Ron's face. After this, he has to fight DEs with just Neville. Plus, he still has the prophecy. There is work to do!!!

And, I for one, don't argue he has any special feelings for Ginny yet. There is also nothing to suggest that Neville's reaction is something extra because it's Ginny. It shows a ferocity he has a lot in this sequence.

I would be very careful about saying things like "it was definitely not to..." without confirmation from the author. ;)

And, I believe that the ships she debunks are to show who AREN'T going to be players in the couples surrounding our trio...no Cho, no Draco, no Luna, no Neville. :p

IceKat55

December 12th, 2004, 2:51 am

This is what I was referring to when I talked about knowing psychology, not the classes. You're misapplying a single concept to all concievable situations, causes and effects.

Harry, as I have said, is very goal oriented, and people who are so usually don't let petty things like telling white lies get in the way of that, especially to hear something they already know and have considered.

Thus if Hermione WERE the goal, (or more completely, if she were part of the process of getting the goal, which is the big paradigm shift of travelling through life alone versus with a companion), then things like this would no longer occur, and when they do happen they could be worked out. Harry and Hermione are very capable of solving their differences by conversing as opposed to fighting.
Sorry, but I'm not interested in dissecting this as a math or scientific problem, and I don't see Hermione as a 'goal' in Harry's life. I'm talking about more than 'a single concept', I'm talking Big Picture between them. I'm talking about the fact that Harry & Hermione aren't a good match in the romance department, character-wise. Huge personality differences tell me this.

You see the 'white lies' as petty, I see them as very important in deciphering their relationship, and how they deal with and relate to one another.

Hermione has shown that she doesn't necessarily deal well with CAPS!LOCK Harry. He's brought her to tears with his harshness, and she's felt compelled to physically step away from him in apprehension. Harry has shown that he doesn't necessarily deal well with the nagging side of Hermione's nature. He lies to her and would rather avoid rather than listen to it, and in my opinion, that is the worst possible basis to try & begin a sharing and loving partnership. Harry can't stand a very strong part of her personality, and she's very likely not going to change.

On the other hand, Ron can deal with her. I've said it a million times - - R/Hr are on much more even footing.

I'd be careful about that statement, because its a very compelling arguement as for why most Herons see Harry's relationship with Hermione as that of a sister.
Sorry, don't quite follow you on this point...I believe that R/Hr have the rather obvious tension between them because of their confused feelings. Where is there such tension between Harry & Hermione?

I take offense at that. I'm doing no such thing. I'm not so weak minded that I need to fabricate facts to support beliefs about a fabrication of another person.
No offense intended, was just stating my opinion. :)

LilypadLollipop

December 12th, 2004, 2:55 am

everyone is fighting so much on this site!!! :upset:
i hafta say though that i personally agree with FredFancier on her arguements. to me, ron doesn't hafta to defend hermione to his friends, because there is nothing to defend about. however in the draco situation, there is something to be defended.
IMHO
Gotta go
:evil:

The Leprechaun

December 12th, 2004, 3:03 am

Right. So, now to stir things up a bit. What do you think of Ron/Cho (and don't tell me the usual initial "EW!")? Do you think it would work, and how you predict everyone (especially Harry) would react to this unexpected pairing? Oh, and if J.K.R.'s sunk this ship for sure, don't send all the demons of the underworld after me, please. Everyone makes mistakes. But I would appreciate it if you let me know if I'm wrong. :-)

Honestly, I think that this has no chance.

"You're well out of it, mate," said Ron forcefully. "I mean, she's quite good-looking and all that, but you want someone a bit more cheerful."

To me this explains that Ron has no interest in Cho and later Ron seems delighted at the idea that Michael and Cho are together, opening up Harry to go out with his little sister. Very interesting.

mrs_bombadil

December 12th, 2004, 3:04 am

Aren't the you's Hermione's using here (2nd person) plural you's?

Definitely not this one:

"Oh did I?" said Hermione, and her eyes flashed dangerously. "Just because it's taken you three years to notice, Ron, doesn't mean no one else has spotted I'm a girl!"

FredFancier

December 12th, 2004, 3:05 am

Honestly, I think that this has no chance.

"You're well out of it, mate," said Ron forcefully. "I mean, she's quite good-looking and all that, but you want someone a bit more cheerful."

To me this explains that Ron has no interest in Cho and later Ron seems delighted at the idea that Michael and Cho are together, opening up Harry to go out with his little sister. Very interesting.
agreed
also ron doesnt appear to like the tornados due to what he said to cho

marauderlupin

December 12th, 2004, 3:09 am

Sorry, but I'm not interested in dissecting this as a math or scientific problem, and I don't see Hermione as a 'goal' in Harry's life. I'm talking about more than 'a single concept', I'm talking Big Picture between them. I'm talking about the fact that Harry & Hermione aren't a good match in the romance department, character-wise. Huge personality differences tell me this.

Sorry Kat, but all the italics and bolding and *asterisks'* in the world can't turn your opinions into fact. Harry and Hermione are just about as well-suited for each other as any other couple. There are so many pros and even a few cons that can be found in their interactions. This is the same with R/Hr or H/L et cetera. So, there :p

everyone is fighting so much on this site!!!

:rotfl:

We do try to be civil ...most of the time :)

The Leprechaun

December 12th, 2004, 3:10 am

Harry doesn't "end up" with anyone. He's the main character, who's gonna have meaningful romance.
And if it's Ginny, it better be meaningful and with depth

Ah well, I am quite tired of this whole shipping thing.

Something's definitely going on... Rowling sunk Neville/Luna now too...
but still not Harmony...

Maybe she is scared of Harmonians and doesn't want them to get all huffy and not buy her next book. I mean some of them have said that they consider her a little bit untrustworthy. And one or two have said that they would think it a mistake or a horrible miscarriage of justice to let Heron take flight. :evil:

Moonstruck

December 12th, 2004, 3:14 am

Maybe she is scared of Harmonians and doesn't want them to get all huffy and not buy her next book. I mean some of them have said that they consider her a little bit untrustworthy. And one or two have said that they would think it a mistake or a horrible miscarriage of justice to let Heron take flight.

And why is she scared of the Herons, hmm? I recall some saying that they would lose all respect for JK if she writes Harmony. :huh:

marauderlupin

December 12th, 2004, 3:15 am

Corbin Dallas

December 12th, 2004, 3:15 am

forgive me for asking but You in the plural is a formal isn't it and otherwise needs a modifier like "you two" or "you guys" or "eihter of you" if not in the familiar context which is usually a singular.
My grammar not being as up to par as some on this board but maybe can someone who is a grammar expert say something about that. Asking for clarification because my school days are long behind me...
CD

The Leprechaun

December 12th, 2004, 3:42 am

Which is more obvious, the hero getting the girl, or Ron and Hermione's attraction? (I personally don't know).

Besides, I vehemently believe she was being facecious when she said this.

1) The one that is way more obviously being promoted in the books, quotes, and movies.

2) So, the 3-5 times she repeats this is an indication of her being fecetious? And now we have her being categorized as 'not to be taken seriously' when we have repitition.

But JK did not mention anything about canon in her response. She did say that the N/L shippers were "less vehement and scary than the Harry/Hermione, Ron/Hermione tribes." Are the N/G, R/L and H/L shippers just as scary? I doubt it because they are a smaller base than Harmony and Heron. How many websites are based on N/G and R/L? Not many if at all (there's only one R/L site that I know of).

Again, what makes this small ship (or what's left of it) more prone to being sunk than the others? Why not sink all the smaller ships? It's not like that will keep us from arguing.

Let us look at it in a political clout form shall we.

If she sinks H/L then Harmony gets a huge boost, and even Chocolate gets a small boost.

If she sinks R/L then it gives us almost a green light for Heron, or it could be viewed that way.

If she sinks N/G, the it gives H/G a very large boost.

If she sunk H/G then we get Harmony with too much of a boost.

N/L doesn't really get us anywhere per se. Yes it puts a little bit more firepower in a few small and large ships, but it doesn't do anything other then tell us that there is one less option for DoM six or that DoM six might not even happen.

If you don't want to cause too much waves in a heated debate such as this one, you wouldn't sink any of the small semi-cannon based ships; like R/L, H/L, or N/G (I would put H/G, but that isn't a small ship.

And why is she scared of the Herons, hmm? I recall some saying that they would lose all respect for JK if she writes Harmony. :huh:
Forgot to add the :evil: sarcasm emoticon.

Moonstruck

December 12th, 2004, 3:46 am

Let us look at it in a political clout form shall we.

If she sinks H/L then Harmony gets a huge boost, and even Chocolate gets a small boost.

If she sinks R/L then it gives us almost a green light for Heron, or it could be viewed that way.

If she sinks N/G, the it gives H/G a very large boost.

If she sunk H/G then we get Harmony with too much of a boost.

N/L doesn't really get us anywhere per se. Yes it puts a little bit more firepower in a few small and large ships, but it doesn't do anything other then tell us that there is one less option for DoM six or that DoM six might not even happen.

If you don't want to cause too much waves in a heated debate such as this one, you wouldn't sink any of the small semi-cannon based ships; like R/L, H/L, or N/G (I would put H/G, but that isn't a small ship.

But then why sink a ship at all?

Forgot to add the :evil: sarcasm emoticon.

It's an evil emotion not an sarcasm emotion! :p

The Leprechaun

December 12th, 2004, 3:50 am

But then why sink a ship at all?

It's an evil emotion not an sarcasm emotion! :p

1) I don't know, it isn't a very supported ship with no evidence and it doesn't heavily affect any of the two or three really major ships.

2) Is there a sarcasm emoticon? I use it because it is the closet one.

Polychrome

December 12th, 2004, 4:01 am

She can't sink Harmony or Heron because both will be technically correct as there is an imminent love triangle on the horizon ;) I forgot to add that both tribes (JKR's word) are also scary and appear to be capable of extremely hilarious threats if their ship doesn't sail. For example, ""I'll never read HP ever again boo hoo me :upset: " etc.

There's no love triangle. She debunked Harmony long ago. But, as she admits, she enjoys the debates. If she suddenly posted something a bit more fierce such as "Hermione and Harry will never get together. Get over it!", then the debates would obviously end. Plus, as I've said before, I think she's sick of repeating herself on something that should be dead obvious.

Neville/Luna was a weirder situation, one in which people paired them off simply because they thought everybody in the sextet HAD to get together. Unfortunately, you'd be better off trying to prove Neville/Pomona. I see why people attempt Neville/Ginny, but frankly, I don't see this either. No common interests, and Ginny was greatly turned off by Neville at the Yule Ball. (Same reason Harry/Parvati are unlikely.) And really, we don't know whether or not Neville went and found somebody else either. He may already have a girlfriend... We just haven't seen much of what Neville has been up to, and therefore, we don't know much about him.

Edit: You know what I would find cute and amusing? If 'ol Neville suddenly turned out to be prime date material in the 6th book due to his involvement at the DoM fight. Wouldn't that be hilarious? All those girls chasing Neville and him not having a clue what to do with them?

FredFancier

December 12th, 2004, 4:06 am

Harry and Hermione are just about as well-suited for each other as any other couple.
Except one of the definitions of platonic is :Not romantically suited
Originally Posted by JordanL
Which is more obvious, the hero getting the girl, or Ron and Hermione's attraction? (I personally don't know).

personally i believe hero-getting-girl is more stereotypical and cliche
yet as to what JKR says and writes, Ron/Hermione (sidekick love) is more obvious\
thats just my opinion please dont hurt me for what I said about hero-getting-girl

ChocolateHedwig

December 12th, 2004, 4:10 am

Here's something I thought the R/HR Shippers would like! :p

Click the link..it probrably wont finish (I tried to make it finish, but it won't..I don't know why..o-O; )
http://admin3.imaginationatwork.com/LaunchPage?aFileType=&_nolivecache&sessionID=&message=chicletlove&room_email=&from_email=kelseymeg@yahoo.com&from_name=kelsey&to_email=kelseymeg@yahoo.com&to_name=&aDrawingID=20041211_225056178_999436142_usa&transcript=&_lscid=

If it didn't finish I've attatched a screenshot below! :) ( http://www.cosforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=18773&stc=1 )

Edit: You know what I would find cute and amusing? If 'ol Neville suddenly turned out to be prime date material in the 6th book due to his involvement at the DoM fight. Wouldn't that be hilarious? All those girls chasing Neville and him not having a clue what to do with them?

That would be funny! :p

voldemort666

December 12th, 2004, 4:13 am

I asked for ALL the text because I wanted the context. You didn't show it. Prior to this, Harry was trying to get the tentacles off of Ron's face. After this, he has to fight DEs with just Neville. Plus, he still has the prophecy. There is work to do!!!

Sorry to interfere but that was a very weak arugument. Even when Hermione was hit with the curse, Harry had a lot of things to do - he had put all his friends in danger, was fighting with death eaters and Neville was the only one with him. I can not see too much difference in these two scenarios as far as Harry is concerned except that he was panicking for Hermione but not for Ginny.

And, I for one, don't argue he has any special feelings for Ginny yet. There is also nothing to suggest that Neville's reaction is something extra because it's Ginny. It shows a ferocity he has a lot in this sequence.

May I remind you that Neville involved in this whole business only becasue of Ginny? As given in canon:

“Got “em all,” said Warrington, shoving Ron roughly forwards into the room. That one,” hepoked a thick finger at Neville, “Tried to stop me taking her,” he pointed at Ginny, who wastrying to kick the shins of the large Slytherin girl holding her, “So I brought him along too.”

I would be very careful about saying things like "it was definitely not to..." without confirmation from the author. ;)

And, I believe that the ships she debunks are to show who AREN'T going to be players in the couples surrounding our trio...no Cho, no Draco, no Luna, no Neville. :p

Have you got confirmation from JKR for stating in captital letters that that the ships she debunks are to show who AREN'T going to be players in the couples surrounding our trio ?

Toltec_7

December 12th, 2004, 4:14 am

There's no love triangle. She debunked Harmony long ago. But, as she admits, she enjoys the debates. If she suddenly posted something a bit more fierce such as "Hermione and Harry will never get together. Get over it!", then the debates would obviously end. Plus, as I've said before, I think she's sick of repeating herself on something that should be dead obvious.
If she did indeed "debunk" Harmony years ago, then she is doing exactly what Herons have claimed she would never do; that is misleading and tricking us by not telling us that now, how many people really follow this debate as much as we do? How many people have seen the famous platonic quote? People who don't follow every little thing to do with HP visit J.K's website, here would be the perfect place for her to come out and say it again or something simlar, she however has not. Harmony was never debunked years ago, that is just a hope that Herons cling to, otherwise J.K would tell us such.

Claudia

December 12th, 2004, 4:15 am

Here's my Heron question for the day:

Do you think that Hermione has a crush on Krum in GoF, or is she just flattered by his attention? If you answer “yes,” to the crush, when do you think it ended?

Think hard on your position here, because there are more Hermione follow-up questions to come, so this would be a good time to hammer out an internally consistent theory. :)

This is one I have a difficult time with, but at the moment I'll say "yes," Hermione really did have a crush on Krum for a while. I don't think it ended exactly at the Yule Brawl, but fairly soon thereafter, because by the end of February, Hermione is dodging Krum's declaration of feelings for her.

The Leprechaun

December 12th, 2004, 4:15 am

Here's something I thought the R/HR Shippers would like! :p

Click the link..it probrably wont finish (I tried to make it finish, but it won't..I don't know why..o-O; )
http://admin3.imaginationatwork.com/LaunchPage?aFileType=&_nolivecache&sessionID=&message=chicletlove&room_email=&from_email=kelseymeg@yahoo.com&from_name=kelsey&to_email=kelseymeg@yahoo.com&to_name=&aDrawingID=20041211_225056178_999436142_usa&transcript=&_lscid=

If it didn't finish I've attatched a screenshot below! :) ( http://www.cosforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=18773&stc=1 )

That would be funny! :p

It didn't finish for me :sad: , but if you wait a bit it'll let you take over.

McBeth

December 12th, 2004, 4:18 am

Angua9

December 12th, 2004, 4:21 am

Sorry, this is from a couple of pages back, but it looks like a canon error to me:

Then how come Harry hasn't stuck up for Hermione before? Malfoy and his friends have had gos at her before. And, as some Herons always point out, there are more times of Ron sticking up for Hermione than there are of Harry. Why is it that Harry chose this insult to defend Hermione against?
WHOA! Hold on a minute.

I don't remember Harry EVER defending Hermione from an insult against her looks, from Pansy Parkinson or anyone else. What are you talking about, Egla?

FredFancier

December 12th, 2004, 4:21 am

If she did indeed "debunk" Harmony years ago, then she is doing exactly what Herons have claimed she would never do; that is misleading and tricking us by not telling us that now, how many people really follow this debate as much as we do? How many people have seen the famous platonic quote? People who don't follow every little thing to do with HP visit J.K's website, here would be the perfect place for her to come out and say it again or something simlar, she however has not. Harmony was never debunked years ago, that is just a hope that Herons cling to, otherwise J.K would tell us such.
no.
No = No, and that should be apparent. There is no reason to repeat it (has she repeated no to Draco Hermione? No, but everyone accepts that NO as no) its not her fault that some people just wont accept it. And why wont she put it on her site? Because when she said it, she didnt think shipping was so huge. Now, she knows it is, and doenst want to ruin the debates- YET she says we ougfht to know by now and heve enough clues/ The only times she mentions H/Hr is when she says NO to them dating and says that they are PLATONIC friends, or when she makes a really ugly face.

Think hard on your position here, because there are more Hermione follow-up questions to come, so this would be a good time to hammer out an internally consistent theory.

This is one I have a difficult time with, but at the moment I'll say "yes," Hermione really did have a crush on Krum for a while. I don't think it ended exactly at the Yule Brawl, but fairly soon thereafter, because by the end of February, Hermione is dodging Krum's declaration of feelings for her.
Ooh I dont know. Part of me says ya she did, and the other part says no, and the other part says, atleast enough to go out with him. I think the average of the 3 ways my mind is pulling me would be...
She liked him in the way that Ron liked Fleur.
May have thought she did, but really, she knew it couldnt work out..thats my opinion (i think) but thats the answer I'll leave it at

Polychrome

December 12th, 2004, 4:22 am

If she did indeed "debunk" Harmony years ago, then she is doing exactly what Herons have claimed she would never do; that is misleading and tricking us by not telling us that now, how many people really follow this debate as much as we do? How many people have seen the famous platonic quote? People who don't follow every little thing to do with HP visit J.K's website, here would be the perfect place for her to come out and say it again or something simlar, she however has not. Harmony was never debunked years ago, that is just a hope that Herons cling to, otherwise J.K would tell us such.

She's not misleading. She simply isn't repeating herself. She says that she has given us enough clues by now. We should already know!

As a tech support worker, I know what it's like to be continuously asked to repeat something that is blatently obvious again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again....

It's like the 'ol demotivational poster said. There are no stupid questions, just a lot of inquisitive idiots. That is not directed specifically at you or anything like that. But if you didn't believe her the 2 or 3 other times that she pointed to Ron and Hermione, why would you believe her now?

Heck, I take it back. If she came out and stated the bluntly obvious, you guys would still argue against it. One of these days I swear I'm gonna send JKR a stack of Ranma 1/2 comics with an explanitory letter about the psychology of fans. :evil:

The Leprechaun

December 12th, 2004, 4:22 am

Jadecmn

December 12th, 2004, 4:25 am

Here's my Heron question for the day:

Do you think that Hermione has a crush on Krum in GoF, or is she just flattered by his attention? If you answer “yes,” to the crush, when do you think it ended?

Think hard on your position here, because there are more Hermione follow-up questions to come, so this would be a good time to hammer out an internally consistent theory. :)

I'm not going to think to hard about it, so you are allowed to debunk me, but I think that she didn't have a crush on him, I think she was just flattered, although I do think she respected him as a person and enjoyed his company, otherwise they wouldn't still be penpals.

He asked her to go with him maybe three weeks before the Yule Ball if not later,and up till then she just viewed him as a Quidditch player and didn't even think he was good looking (I think, if I'm wrong, I apologize). I think she only said yest to the Ball was because she thought no one else would ask her.

The Leprechaun

December 12th, 2004, 4:25 am

Knight Bus

December 12th, 2004, 4:25 am

Acctually Ron was mad about a piece a wood too. In fact it was Ron who initally rounded onto Hermione first about the Firebolt. Pretty interresting since it wasn't even his broom.

You also must remember that Harry went to Hermione and made amends with her and tried to get Ron to do the same and Ron refused to.

Polychrome

December 12th, 2004, 4:25 am

She isn't doing this, she only ever says that there are clues out there for which ship is more likely. And there are. Just because she points to the clues she has left behind, doesn't mean she is tricking us. She might just think that one can have their fun, but as it should be obvious she might think it is funny and entertaining. It's not being tricky or misleading, only her telling us to look at the clues, which should be obvious.

I still say she's watching us with a bowl of popcorn!

GET BACK TO WORK, JKR! :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

FredFancier

December 12th, 2004, 4:28 am

You also must remember that Harry went to Hermione and made amends with her and tried to get Ron to do the same and Ron refused to.
any you must also remember that Harry was still not talking to her for a while.

Moonstruck

December 12th, 2004, 4:29 am

I have a question for Red Moon (Ron/Luna) shippers:

I'm often hearing about how the relationship would be good for Ron as far as him "growing up" goes - my question is, how is this relationship good for Luna?

I don't think the relationship would be good for Ron in growing up. I think it would be good for Ron because Luna sees him as Ron. She sees him as he is and accepts him (like the dancing at the Yule Ball). People always see Harry before they see Ron. Luna sees Ron before she sees Harry. :)

Now to your question. :p I think the relationship would be good for Luna because it would provide her with someone who is somewhat down to Earth. :) It's kind of hard to explain because so far we have not seen any attraction between the two. It's easlier to explain what Ron would get out of it, seeing as we have seen it. :)

Toltec_7

December 12th, 2004, 4:32 am

no.
No = No, and that should be apparent. There is no reason to repeat it (has she repeated no to Draco Hermione? No, but everyone accepts that NO as no) its not her fault that some people just wont accept it. And why wont she put it on her site? Because when she said it, she didnt think shipping was so huge. Now, she knows it is, and doenst want to ruin the debates- YET she says we ougfht to know by now and heve enough clues/ The only times she mentions H/Hr is when she says NO to them dating and says that they are PLATONIC friends, or when she makes a really ugly face
And once again: How many people have actually seen the platonic quote? We know about it because we have weeded our way though all of J.K's quotes from 1998-2004 but how many normal (not ship obessed people) have seen this quote from 1999? I will bet that its not many, hell you even see new people coming in all the time saying "did J.K really say that?". The point is you are claiming that J.K debunked Harmony in 1999 (thats five years ago) but has never done so again, how then is the general public meant to know this?

FredFancier

December 12th, 2004, 4:33 am

I think the relationship would be good for Luna because it would provide her with someone who is somewhat down to Earth.
Ron still thinks shes a nutter, Harry on the other hand does not....
(sorry a bit of my moonlight peeks out though im really a member of H/G)

McBeth

December 12th, 2004, 4:33 am

I don't think the relationship would be good for Ron in growing up. I think it would be good for Ron because Luna sees him as Ron. She sees him as he is and accepts him (like the dancing at the Yule Ball). People always see Harry before they see Ron. Luna sees Ron before she sees Harry. :)

How do you know Luna sees him as truly who he is? She may simply find him attractive. She doesn't know anything about Ron, except for the little she may know about him from living near Ottery St. Catchpole.

Now to your question. :p I think the relationship would be good for Luna because it would provide her with someone who is somewhat down to Earth. :) It's kind of hard to explain because so far we have not seen any attraction between the two. It's easlier to explain what Ron would get out of it, seeing as we have seen it. :)

The problem is, while Ron's down to earth, he's proud and sure of his opinion and he can be rude about it at times. I can't see him taking Luna's "Ron, guess what I just saw! A Blibbering-Humdinger!" very gracefully. Eventually he would get impatient and hurt Luna's feelings.

Ron will get better about acting like this. But it won't stop how he feels inside, and I'm pretty sure that his feelings will come out soon enough.

FredFancier

December 12th, 2004, 4:34 am

ToughLuck88

December 12th, 2004, 4:36 am

FredFancier

December 12th, 2004, 4:39 am

Harry would never date Luna because he kinda thinks she is a bit "off", but at the end of OOTP, he felt bad for her. He also knows she's probably "Looney" because she is kind of like the "female" Harry, except she is very careless and flaky.
he felt pity for her at first but at the end of the conversation- that was not pity (and I like H/G more then H/L) and he doesnt see her as Looney Luna Lovegood
Ron still does

Moonstruck

December 12th, 2004, 4:39 am

How do you know Luna sees him as truly who he is? She may simply find him attractive. She doesn't know anything about Ron, except for the little she may know about him from living near Ottery St. Catchpole.

She seemed to know a lot about his date with Padma and, as we all know, she's not well liked in her house. Don't you think it's odd that she knows what happened on his date if she is not well liked by people?

The problem is, while Ron's down to earth, he's proud and sure of his opinion and he can be rude about it at times. I can't see him taking Luna's "Ron, guess what I just saw! A Blibbering-Humdinger!" very gracefully. Eventually he would get impatient and hurt Luna's feelings.

Ron will get better about acting like this. But it won't stop how he feels inside, and I'm pretty sure that his feelings will come out soon enough.

Now that is where the growing up will come in, but I don't think it's going to occur while they date. Luna is now part of the tribe and Ron is going to have to get used to it. Not to mention there is always the possibity that one of the things Luna talked about will come around, thereby forcing Ron to actually think about what Luna says and not think it's crazy at first. :eyebrows:

Polychrome

December 12th, 2004, 4:39 am

And once again: How many people have actually seen the platonic quote? We know about it because we have weeded our way though all of J.K's quotes from 1998-2004 but how many normal (not ship obessed people) have seen this quote from 1999? I will bet that its not many, hell you even see new people coming in all the time saying "did J.K really say that?". The point is you are claiming that J.K debunked Harmony in 1999 (thats five years ago) but has never done so again, how then is the general public meant to know this?

The general public doesn't need to. The general public sees the canon for what it is. There's a heck of a lot of Ron/Hermione support out there, believe it or not.

A good friend of mine who actually hates the series (but is familiar with it) says Ron and Hermione are definite. I don't think you can get more of an unbiased interpretation than that. I've yet to meet a casual reader of the books who does not agree on Ron and Hermione.

The ship that the general public truely does not agree on is Harry/*insert girl here*. A good friend of mine is a Harry/Luna shipper, and frankly, upon my first read of Order of the Phoenix (over a year before showing up on forums about it) I was split between Harry/Ginny and Harry/Luna myself.

McBeth

December 12th, 2004, 4:43 am

Harry would never date Luna because he kinda thinks she is a bit "off", but at the end of OOTP, he felt bad for her. He also knows she's probably "Looney" because she is kind of like the "female" Harry, except she is very careless and flaky.

Luna's not careless, according to my copy of OotP. Do you have a quote to prove that? Second, "flakiness" is only a personal opinion. I don't see Luna as flakey. You can't say Harry will *never* date Luna, because JKR hasn't disproved the ship. Lastly, if you want to learn about the points of the Moonlight ship, please feel free to read my essay, Full Moon. The link is in my signature. :)

BTW, you're signature has too many text lines in it. The maximum number allowed is 7. :)

She seemed to know a lot about his date with Padma and, as we all know, she's not well liked in her house. Don't you think it's odd that she knows what happened on his date if she is not well liked by people?

Considering that Padma didn't like Ron's behavior at the Yule Ball one bit, I'm pretty sure every Ravenclaw heard about it. ;)

Now that is where the growing up will come in, but I don't think it's going to occur while they date. Luna is now part of the tribe and Ron is going to have to get used to it. Not to mention there is always the possibity that one of the things Luna talked about will come around, thereby forcing Ron to actually think about what Luna says and not think it's crazy at first. :eyebrows:

But Harry has already accepted that what Luna says may not be so crazy, after all - and that puts him a step ahead of Ron. ;)

ToughLuck88

December 12th, 2004, 4:44 am

Luna's not careless, according to my copy of OotP. Do you have a quote to prove that? Second, "flakiness" is only a personal opinion. I don't see Luna as flakey. You can't say Harry will *never* date Luna, because JKR hasn't disproved the ship. Lastly, if you want to learn about the points of the Moonlight ship, please feel free to read my essay, Full Moon. The link is in my signature. :)

BTW, you're signature has too many text lines in it. The maximum number allowed is 7. :)

Considering that Padma didn't like Ron's behavior at the Yule Ball one bit, I'm pretty sure every Ravenclaw heard about it. ;)

But Harry has already accepted that what Luna says may not be so crazy, after all - and that puts him a step ahead of Ron. ;)

Wow, aren't we the one critiquing everyone today?

Moonstruck

December 12th, 2004, 4:46 am

Considering that Padma didn't like Ron's behavior at the Yule Ball one bit, I'm pretty sure every Ravenclaw heard about it. ;)

Would she honsetly tell the 'loony' one what happened? Notice that she also said she wouldn't mind, meaning that she thought about what she would do while dating Ron. :eyebrows:

But Harry has already accepted that what Luna says may not be so crazy, after all - and that puts him a step ahead of Ron. ;)

True, but that doesn't mean the others won't see that either.

IceKat55

December 12th, 2004, 4:48 am

Wow, aren't we the one critiquing everyone today?
I think McBeth was just trying to offer you some helpful advice - - the CoS mods will notify you that your sig is too long (7 lines max), and your pic is too big (300x300 max). Just sayin'.

Also, :welcome: aboard. :)

McBeth

December 12th, 2004, 4:49 am

Wow, aren't we the one critiquing everyone today?

Critique becomes automatic after being on this thread for three months. :D

WhoAmI

December 12th, 2004, 4:50 am

Here's my Heron question for the day:

Do you think that Hermione has a crush on Krum in GoF, or is she just flattered by his attention? If you answer “yes,” to the crush, when do you think it ended?Yes, I think it was a real crush, but it probably started with her feeling flattered by his attention. Up to that point, she had not been considered one of the "pretty" girls and having an international celebrity thinking you're hot stuff would be hard to ignore. I think it ended by the end of the book, but can't pinpoint right now...too tired!

Toltec_7

December 12th, 2004, 4:50 am

How is the general publc who dont care about ships supposed to dig 89 feet into a quote that harry said or something he did (while he liked cho) and say- see that means he likes or will like hermione?
Well its funny you should say this, because I know many people who read the books, see the movies, but have no involvement in the shipping wars or really care that much. When asked about who they believe will end up with whom its about an even split, lots have said H/Hr and lots have said they see R/Hr, why? Because thats what they see when they read the books, its the same for me, I never read the books looking for quotes that support Harmony or Heron, I read them for the story it just so happens that I saw H/Hr.

But you never answered my question, how is the general public meant to know that in 1999 J.K said "No" to the question if Harry & Hermione will have a date? She also answered another question about Harry, Hermione and Ginny with "He's still 14 so he has plenty of time to change his mind", this after the platonic quote. Now if someone had seen this quote but not the platonic quote, then they have been misled into thinking that H/Hr still have a chance (if you believe the platonic quote meant forevermore). Like I said J.K now has the perfect chance to reach everybody, not just the shippers, but the only thing she has debunked is D/Hr & N/L, these two ships are the only ones debunked at this moment in time.

IceKat55

December 12th, 2004, 4:50 am

Critique becomes automatic after being on this thread for three months. :D
Automatic, and expected. ;)

ToughLuck88

December 12th, 2004, 4:50 am

I knew I should have spent more time interpreting...I got lazy, it is 11:42 and my head hurts from reading all night...I can't say anything else or a certain some1 will start to bash me...

McBeth

December 12th, 2004, 4:53 am

Would she honsetly tell the 'loony' one what happened? Notice that she also said she wouldn't mind, meaning that she thought about what she would do while dating Ron. :eyebrows:

I didn't say she told Luna - I said Luna heard about it. When you don't talk to other people often, you learn to be a very good listener, although I doubt that was necessary for Luna to pick up the information on Padma's Yule Ball experience. I'm very inclined to believe Padma ranted about it a bit. :eyebrows:

True, but that doesn't mean the others won't see that either.

But it doesn't mean others will.

I've no doubt Ron will learn to respect Luna - but understand her and respect her enough for them to be in a relationship? I highly doubt it.

On the other hand, Harry's already learned to respect Luna somewhat, and even understands her to an extent.

Polychrome

December 12th, 2004, 4:53 am

Critique becomes automatic after being on this thread for three months. :D

Ain't that the truth?

Jadecmn

December 12th, 2004, 4:54 am

Fred Fancier,

First of all Ginny was unconscious. "She (Ginny) keeled over sideways and lay there unconscious". So, yes it was a bit more than a hurt ankle. Yet, JKR chose to write Neville more upset about this than Harry. This is also why she wrote Neville protecting Ginny specifically from Malfoy and his gang. The only reason she would bother writing this is to show that Neville cares for Ginny. I am sorry but the Neville/Hannah Abbott ship is as probable as Neville/Luna. Ginny's ankle was not hurt when Harry and the other six stepped in to protect Ginny. The most telling thing is that knowing the Deatheaters threatened Ginny; Harry still chose Hermione to protect and take with him by grabbing her robes. Once again Harry forgets about Ginny. I for one am glad Ginny is over Harry because he forgets about her and ignores her. And yes JKR in an interview did state that Harry was rude to tell Ron that he had asked Cho to the dance in front of Ginny. If one looks at Neville's stronger reaction to Ginny becoming unconscious and Harry's stronger reaction to Hermione becoming unconscious; it becomes fairly obvious where the deeper feelings lie. Neville did not drop to his knees and panic when Hermione was injured and had the prescence of mind to check for a pulse. The comparison between Neville's and Harry's reactions shows that Neville likes Hermione but lacks deeper feelings and his response to her being hurt shows this.

Jennifer M.

A little late maybe but here goes nothing:

Beyond the Veil, Chapter 35, OotP:
Hermione was the closest to him, when he grabbed her robes, because she was the one he was whispering to telling her to smash the shelves.

Hermione's 'death' scene:
*** A whine of panic inside his head was preventing him thinking properly: he had one hand on Hermione's shoulder, which was still warm, yet did not dare look at her properly. Don't let her be dead, don't let her be dead, it's my fault if she's dead . . .

(From The Woes of Mrs.Weasly, Chapter 9: Sprawled on the dusty old carpet in a patch of moonlight, clearly dead, was Ron.
*** All the air seemed to vanish from Harry's lungs; he felt as though he were falling through the floor; his brain turned icy cold — Ron dead, no, it couldn't be — ')

They are in the circular room when, Ron, Luna, and Ginny walk in:
*** But before they could make a decision as to which way to try, a door to their right sprang open and three people fell out of it.
*** 'Ron!' croaked Harry, dashing towards them. 'Ginny — are you all — ?'
*** 'Harry,' said Ron, giggling weakly, lurching forwards, seizing the front of Harry's robes and gazing at him with unfocused eyes, 'there you are . . . ha ha ha . . . you look funny, Harry . . . you're all messed up . . .'
*** Ron's face was very white and something dark was trickling from the corner of his mouth. Next moment his knees had given way, but he still clutched the front of Harry's robes, so that Harry was pulled into a kind of bow.
*** 'Ginny?' Harry said fearfully. 'What happened?'
*** But Ginny shook her head and slid down the wall into a sitting position, panting and holding her ankle.

*** 'Diffindo!' yelled Harry, trying to sever the feelers wrapping them*selves tightly around Ron before his eyes, but they would not break. Ron fell over, still thrashing against his bonds.
*** 'Harry, it'll suffocate him!' screamed Ginny, immobilised by her broken ankle on the floor — then a jet of red light flew from one of the Death Eater's wands and hit her squarely in the face. She keeled over sideways and lay there unconscious.
*** 'STUBEFY!' shouted Neville, wheeling around and waving Hermione's wand at the oncoming Death Eaters, 'STUBEFY, STUBEFY!'
*** But nothing happened.
*** One of the Death Eaters shot their own Stunning Spell at Neville; it missed him by inches. Harry and Neville were now the only two left fighting the five Death Eaters, two of whom sent off streams of silver light like arrows which missed but left craters in the wall behind them. Harry ran for it as Bellatrix Lestrange raced right at him: holding the prophecy high above his head, he sprinted back up the room; all he could think of doing was to draw the Death Eaters away from the others.

FredFancier

December 12th, 2004, 4:55 am

I knew I should have spent more time interpreting...I got lazy, it is 11:42 and my head hurts from reading all night...I can't say anything else or a certain some1 will start to bash me...
I doubt McBeth was trying to bash you, shes just debating what you said- and believe me there are some who..i cant find the right words maybe..harsher? anyway some are alot harsher then McBeth when debating

IceKat55

December 12th, 2004, 4:56 am

Well its funny you should say this, because I know many people who read the books, see the movies, but have no involvement in the shipping wars or really care that much. When asked about who they believe will end up with whom its about an even split, lots have said H/Hr and lots have said they see R/Hr, why? Because thats what they see when they read the books, its the same for me, I never read the books looking for quotes that support Harmony or Heron, I read them for the story it just so happens that I saw H/Hr.
It's true that everyone is going to have their own interpretation, wishes, and opinions of canon - - but it does seem to be generally agreed on that R/Hr are more on-the-surface "obvious" to the naked eye and casual reader. Not all casual readers, no...but a vast majority. Harmony clues must be dug up from much deeper, and they are not quite so "obvious".

However, Rowling seems to think it should be much easier to figure out than to have to dig quite so deep as to get to the Harmony. I agree that there are some excellent arguments for that ship, but it's always seemed to me that it's a bit more of a 'personal preference' kinda thing. No offense intended, it's just how I've always seen it.

ToughLuck88

December 12th, 2004, 4:58 am

Exactly the way I DIDN'T want to start off here. Sorry, it is late and I am grumpy. I got the notice, I get angry really easily and when reading something over the internet I can't tell what kind of "tone" it is expressing (sarcasm, warning, etc.). I need to get to bed anyways...I will end this by saying I only want to SEE a relationship with Harry and Luna in the future, that's all. :blush: :sigh: Sorry!

Polychrome

December 12th, 2004, 5:05 am

But you never answered my question, how is the general public meant to know that in 1999 J.K said "No" to the question if Harry & Hermione will have a date? She also answered another question about Harry, Hermione and Ginny with "He's still 14 so he has plenty of time to change his mind", this after the platonic quote. Now if someone had seen this quote but not the platonic quote, then they have been misled into thinking that H/Hr still have a chance (if you believe the platonic quote meant forevermore). Like I said J.K now has the perfect chance to reach everybody, not just the shippers, but the only thing she has debunked is D/Hr & N/L, these two ships are the only ones debunked at this moment in time.

*sigh* I am not dodging your question, but answering indirectly. I don't know to be honest how the general public is expected to read every last interview. Why would they have to? The same people who go to JKR's site or travel across oceans to go to a panel at a reading convention are the same that would look up the interviews. Casual readers and fans generally do NOT look for informative websites or go to conventions to get more info, and the kiddie fans won't even care who gets who in the first place. They just wait for the next book and read it what happens.

The casual fan isn't expected to know every last interview because they do not need to. Most of them simply know what they see and do not care. I'm in the same boat as a few other people on this thread, pondering why Harry/Hermione ship even exists. Like it or not, I put it in the same pile as Draco/Hermione.

Angua9

December 12th, 2004, 5:05 am

Here's my Heron question for the day:

Do you think that Hermione has a crush on Krum in GoF, or is she just flattered by his attention? If you answer “yes,” to the crush, when do you think it ended?
I don't know, and I don't think we're supposed to know.

Either Hermione never had a "thing" for Krum, or she did have a bit of a thing but it was over by the time of the Second Task. The result is the same either way. Judging by my own personal experience (always a dangerous thing to do) I'd guess that she did have a little temporary fever about him as the first guy to pay any real attention to her -- and such a nice guy, too! -- but it wasn't based on any real preference for him, and quickly died out.

Polychrome

December 12th, 2004, 5:06 am

However, Rowling seems to think it should be much easier to figure out than to have to dig quite so deep as to get to the Harmony. I agree that there are some excellent arguments for that ship, but it's always seemed to me that it's a bit more of a 'personal preference' kinda thing. No offense intended, it's just how I've always seen it.

This is why I lump Harmony with the fetish-ships unfortunately. Personal preference is going to be big on many people's lists. Some people want Harry to get Hermione because they would want a girl like Hermione and they want Harry to have the best. Either that, or they see Hermione as the main girl and want Hermione to have the best, being the Hero. Do they consider whether or not HARRY would like such a girl as a romantic interest? Do they consider what HERMIONE would want in a love interest? Most often not.

While Harmony attempts a good argument, the vast majority of the essays written in it's favor are by people who already want Harmony and are desperately trying to prove it to themselves.

Notice that Herons, Chocolates, and Moonies don't feel they have to prove it to themselves. They just see that Hermione and Ron are and item and that Harry's love interest is a mystery. Simple as that.

ToughLuck88

December 12th, 2004, 5:10 am

I really can't leave unless some1 forgives me or else I will be all sad and stuff... :(, exactly the way Harry feels at the Dursley's...

JordanL

December 12th, 2004, 5:10 am

JordanL- lighten up a bit, your posts are good and all but a bit..I dont know...I dont think that you are trying to be insulting but it kinda comes across like that
:cool:

Perhaps. I get very flustered very quickly when I make a completely valid point and people pay it no heed, or worse, ignor it entirely by discreditting it in a method which has nothing to do with the point. It's just the way I am. I get upset by that. However, I will try to be a little more "people friendly" in my responses.

This requires a certain amount of tradeoff though. If you expect me to not be condencending, then I expect you to entertain my suppositions.

and laughs at it- her laughing at H.Hr isnt a good thing for harmony

Not on the surface no, though it would be such an eloquent example of dramatic irony.

True. But the beautiful thing about Seuss and Rowling is that you don't have to understand any of the symbolism they were using to appreciate their work, because it makes sense on the superficial level. You don't need to realize the Sneetches' stars apply to other forms of racism to see how unfair their behavior is, just as you don't need to draw Nazi parallels with the Death Eaters to see their actions are wrong.

Oh, thank you. You understood the point of what I was saying.

While I see what you were pointing out, you don't need to understand the psychological reason why something happens for it to happen period. Which is why I've been so adament about looking into which psychoanalytical end brings us the most results, because whether or not its apparent that it should, it most likely will.

The problem with theories relying on Jung and alchemy and whatever else is that they're invisible to any reader who doesn't understand the rationale behind them. And I honestly don't believe that's the way Rowling operates. She wants to give all her readers at least a chance at figuring out what's going to happen.

True, however my position is that all people contain a perfect understanding of their worlds psychology, they just can't explain it. Thus when any writer writes psychologically, they will connect to any reader on the psychological level who has had any experience that is psychologically similar. When you are talking about romance, most people experience most of the psychological situations.

(Thank you Rowena, you just amde me feel so much better aobut what I posted)

I'm talking about more than 'a single concept', I'm talking Big Picture between them.

No, you can't do that in psychology with a concept which has pre-requisites. In this case the pre-requisite was that an infatuation was established at ten, not a friendship.

I'm talking about the fact that Harry & Hermione aren't a good match in the romance department, character-wise. Huge personality differences tell me this.

I almost fell over laughing when I read this. You realize, of course, that Ron and Hermione are far more different from each other than Harry and Hermione.

You see the 'white lies' as petty, I see them as very important in deciphering their relationship, and how they deal with and relate to one another.

But you see, it's not whether oyu do that counts, its whether he does.

He's brought her to tears with his harshness, and she's felt compelled to physically step away from him in apprehension. Harry has shown that he doesn't necessarily deal well with the nagging side of Hermione's nature. He lies to her and would rather avoid rather than listen to it, and in my opinion, that is the worst possible basis to try & begin a sharing and loving partnership. Harry can't stand a very strong part of her personality, and she's very likely not going to change.

The things you have described are about immaturity but you are pretending they are about self- and percieved- worth. Harry does these things because he is immature and selfish, not because he doesn't care for Hermione. He knows that if he lets Hermione reason with him she will win, and so he has to keep the entire arguement from her in order to not let her win. It's not that Harry can't stand her strong personality, its that he hasn't recognized that he has a strong personality.

On the other hand, Ron can deal with her. I've said it a million times - - R/Hr are on much more even footing.

Not by a long shot. Ron is almost entirely inept, and even less mature than Harry, (mostly because of what hasn't happened to him). Hermione is by far the most mature of the group, and is almost entirely aware of the things that go on around her.

Sorry, don't quite follow you on this point...I believe that R/Hr have the rather obvious tension between them because of their confused feelings. Where is there such tension between Harry & Hermione?

You said that they [Ron and Hermione] act the way they do because they have no basis for comparison. Harry has even less basis for comparison as he has never truely been loved or returned someone's love, be it parent, sibling or friend, in his life outside of Hermione and Ron, which is a very good arguement as to why he would react to someone in a 'sisterly' way but not mean so. Or even not realize what the feeling is because he has nothing to base it on.

No offense intended, was just stating my opinion.

You described your opinion as me constructing "dark" fallacies to "twist" the meaning of what was said to "a pro Harry-Hermione comment". Dark and twist are words you use to describe a conspiracy, not an opinion. (Which would be why I took offense.)

If you didn't mean anyhting by it then, I'm sorry for overreacting, and just no that I'm not conspiring to sink your boat.

Except one of the definitions of platonic is :Not romantically suited

Erm.... platonic means non-physically involved, not non-romantically suited.

personally i believe hero-getting-girl is more stereotypical and cliche
yet as to what JKR says and writes, Ron/Hermione (sidekick love) is more obvious\
thats just my opinion please dont hurt me for what I said about hero-getting-girl

This is interesting... people are begging me not to hurt them? I really should be more cheerful.

That's precisely what I was saying, both are equally obvious in my opinion, just from different angles.

Moonstruck

December 12th, 2004, 5:11 am

I didn't say she told Luna - I said Luna heard about it. When you don't talk to other people often, you learn to be a very good listener, although I doubt that was necessary for Luna to pick up the information on Padma's Yule Ball experience. I'm very inclined to believe Padma ranted about it a bit. :eyebrows:

The one time Luna was in a room with people, she was not listening.

Luna, who had dropped in to visit clutching the latest edition of the Quibbler, was reading the magazine upside down and apparently not talking in a word Hermione was saying.

OOTP pg. 846-47

Also, we don't know how Luna spends her time in the common room. As Padma and Luna are not in the same year, we don't know if they even knew each other.

But it doesn't mean others will.

I've no doubt Ron will learn to respect Luna - but understand her and respect her enough for them to be in a relationship? I highly doubt it.

That is something the future books will answer.

On the other hand, Harry's already learned to respect Luna somewhat, and even understands her to an extent.

How does he understand her? He doesn't understand why she thinks that way.

Toltec_7

December 12th, 2004, 5:12 am

It's true that everyone is going to have their own interpretation, wishes, and opinions of canon - - but it does seem to be generally agreed on that R/Hr are more on-the-surface "obvious" to the naked eye and casual reader. Not all casual readers, no...but a vast majority. Harmony clues must be dug up from much deeper, and they are not quite so "obvious".

However, Rowling seems to think it should be much easier to figure out than to have to dig quite so deep as to get to the Harmony. I agree that there are some excellent arguments for that ship, but it's always seemed to me that it's a bit more of a 'personal preference' kinda thing. No offense intended, it's just how I've always seen it.
Well that is your opinon, and what you think really dosn't make much difference. Just an example: I leant my copies of all the books to a work colleague the other week, he read them all in a week and loved the lot. I never promted him on what his thoughts were for the outcome of the series, but when we were discussing the books, one of the first things he said to me was "I think that Harry and Hermione will get together by the the of the series", he said this without any promting from me, I never metioned anything about relationships forming. Now he didn't have to "dig" to see this, he just read the books and this was his opinon on the way things are going.

Another thing I find interesting about the quote debate is that pior to GoF there was never a shipping question asked about R/Hr, not one that I have ever seen. Only after GoF was any questions asked about Heron, it appears that most people pior GoF thought that it was going to be H/Hr, yet alot of Herons say they have seen this since book one.

McBeth

December 12th, 2004, 5:16 am

The one time Luna was in a room with people, she was not listening.

Luna, who had dropped in to visit clutching the latest edition of the Quibbler, was reading the magazine upside down and apparently not talking in a word Hermione was saying.

OOTP pg. 846-47

Considering Luna was hiding her face behind the Quibbler, we don't know whether she was listening or not.

Also, we don't know how Luna spends her time in the common room. As Padma and Luna are not in the same year, we don't know if they even knew each other.

How do you think Luna learned about the outcome of Padma and Ron's date, then, if she didn't overhear it from others?

How does he understand her? He doesn't understand why she thinks that way.

Nobody can understand how another thinks a certain way.

What I mean by understanding is the "outcast" thing - the fact that Harry was able to pity her when he learned that the other students picked on her. Because he had the comprehension to know how terribly awful it is to be picked on and friendless.

JordanL

December 12th, 2004, 5:18 am

Considering Luna was hiding her face behind the Quibbler, we don't know whether she was listening or not.

There are thousands and thousands of things which are generally accepted even though the narrator described them as "apparently" or something similar. I doubt you want to throw them all into question.

Polychrome

December 12th, 2004, 5:19 am

Another thing I find interesting about the quote debate is that pior to GoF there was never a shipping question asked about R/Hr, not one that I have ever seen. Only after GoF was any questions asked about Heron, it appears that most people pior GoF thought that it was going to be H/Hr, yet alot of Herons use say they have seen this since book one.

Oh, go watch the extras DVD for Chamber of Secrets already. :rotfl:

JordanL

December 12th, 2004, 5:20 am

What I mean by understanding is the "outcast" thing - the fact that Harry was able to pity her when he learned that the other students picked on her. Because he had the comprehension to know how terribly awful it is to be picked on and friendless.

You meant empathize, not understand. Though pity is a horrible basis of relationship, which means that something much more meaningful must happen if Luna is to end up with Harry.

Toltec_7

December 12th, 2004, 5:23 am

Oh, go watch the extras DVD for Chamber of Secrets already.
And what is that meant to mean, exactly? Just so you know I own and have watched the CoS DVD many times. But I don't understanding what point you were using this to argue against; and just so you know the CoS DVD was released in 2002.

JordanL

December 12th, 2004, 5:23 am

McBeth

December 12th, 2004, 5:25 am

You meant empathize, not understand. Though pity is a horrible basis of relationship, which means that something much more meaningful must happen if Luna is to end up with Harry.

These are the two definitions of "empathy" at dictionary.com:

1. Identification with and understanding of another's situation, feelings, and motives. See Synonyms at pity.
2. The attribution of one's own feelings to an object.

Empathy and understanding is the same thing, as far as I'm concerned.

Toltec_7

December 12th, 2004, 5:26 am

You know, one of the things I find most interesting is how JK specifically answered the most direct question on this topic with amazing amiguity:

Q: Does Hermione like Ron or Harry? (Not on her site, in a chat)
A: The answer to that is in Goblet of Fire.

So? In Goblet of Fire, Ron and Hermione have the most compelling chemistry of any of the books. In Goblet of Fire, it is pounded into us that everyone around the trio thinks there's something going on between Hermione and Harry.

I have come to suspect that JK must write the books expecting the interview questions.
Just to correct you there JordanL, J.K was never asked that question (that I know off), the actual question was:

Does Hermione like Ron as more than a Friend?
Ans: The answer to that is in GoF.

So Harry was never part of that question it was only about Hermiones feelings for Ron.

Polychrome

December 12th, 2004, 5:27 am

And what is that meant to mean, exactly? Just so you know I own and have watched the CoS DVD many times. But I don't understanding what point you were using this to argue against; and just so you know the CoS DVD was released in 2002.

Who cares when it was released? But it's something that the casual fans have likely seen.

My point is this. JKR said that she really didn't start dumping the foreshadowing involving the relationships between the TRIO until Goblet of Fire.

So of course there wouldn't have been much of a question on it until then. While there is some cuteness between the two before hand, there's nothing obviously romantic.

JordanL

December 12th, 2004, 5:29 am

These are the two definitions of "empathy" at dictionary.com:

1. Identification with and understanding of another's situation, feelings, and motives. See Synonyms at pity.
2. The attribution of one's own feelings to an object.

Empathy and understanding is the same thing, as far as I'm concerned.

Well, usually understanding means that you know the cause or reason for something. Harry most certainly doesn't know the reason that Luna acts the way she does, or her motives for saying the things she says. In fact, nearly everytime there's a conversation with her, Harry specifically notes that he doesn't know.

Understand has a deeper level of meaning as far as identification to a character goes.

I was just explaining why your meaning was lost on someone else.

Just to correct you there JordanL, J.K was never asked that question (that I know off), the actual question was:

Does Hermione like Ron as more than a Friend?
Ans: The answer to that is in GoF.

So Harry was never part of that question it was only about Hermiones feelings for Ron.

I knew that quote sounded wrong, but the point I was making still stands. The way she answers things in interviews has an unmatched beauty to it.

Toltec_7

December 12th, 2004, 5:29 am

Who cares when it was released? But it's something that the casual fans have likely seen.

My point is this. JKR said that she really didn't start dumping the foreshadowing involving the relationships between the TRIO until Goblet of Fire.

So of course there wouldn't have been much of a question on it until then. While there is some cuteness between the two before hand, there's nothing obviously romantic.
But once again; whats your point? I said:
Another thing I find interesting about the quote debate is that pior to GoF there was never a shipping question asked about R/Hr, not one that I have ever seen. Only after GoF was any questions asked about Heron, it appears that most people pior GoF thought that it was going to be H/Hr, yet alot of Herons say they have seen this since book one.
So your not even addressing the point I made.

P.S "Who cares when it was released?" calm down a bit I put that in there because I had no idea what you were countering.

Moonstruck

December 12th, 2004, 5:30 am

Considering Luna was hiding her face behind the Quibbler, we don't know whether she was listening or not.

As JordanL said.

How do you think Luna learned about the outcome of Padma and Ron's date, then, if she didn't overhear it from others?

She might have heard some of it from Ginny (seeing as she seems to be the only one before OOTP to give Luna the time of day) and she might have gone looking for the rest.

Mind, this is my opinion only. :)

Nobody can understand how another thinks a certain way.

What I mean by understanding is the "outcast" thing - the fact that Harry was able to pity her when he learned that the other students picked on her. Because he had the comprehension to know how terribly awful it is to be picked on and friendless.

Again, as JordanL said. Pity really isn't a good way to start a relationship.

The Leprechaun

December 12th, 2004, 5:30 am

You know, one of the things I find most interesting is how JK specifically answered the most direct question on this topic with amazing amiguity:

Q: Does Hermione like Ron or Harry? (Not on her site, in a chat)
A: The answer to that is in Goblet of Fire.

So? In Goblet of Fire, Ron and Hermione have the most compelling chemistry of any of the books. In Goblet of Fire, it is pounded into us that everyone around the trio thinks there's something going on between Hermione and Harry.

I have come to suspect that JK must write the books expecting the interview questions.

Could you show me the link for this one? It looks like you are mixing two different questions/answers.

McBeth

December 12th, 2004, 5:31 am

Well, usually understanding means that you know the cause or reason for something. Harry most certainly doesn't know the reason that Luna acts the way she does, or her motives for saying the things she says. In fact, nearly everytime there's a conversation with her, Harry specifically notes that he doesn't know.

As I said before, no one can understand why I person says such and such, does such and such, etc. What I'm saying is that Harry can understand parts of her - being different, having no friends, losing a parental figure.

sanika24

December 12th, 2004, 5:33 am

I think Harry and Luna might end up together.....who knows. I really want Ron & Hermione to end up together unless Ron dies of course.

Claudia

December 12th, 2004, 5:34 am

I don't know, and I don't think we're supposed to know.For the most part, I don't really "use" JKR's interviews--I certainly read them all, and by now have had many of the shipping-relevant parts pounded into my head by this forum. But this is one instance where I am depending on JKR's words for my interpretation. On my own, I can't quite decide whether Hermione had a crush or not. But I remember some quote somewhere about Hermione having "crushes on unsuitable men"--that's "crushes" plural, and the only other one we know about is Lockhart (of course Team Harmony could also argue for Ron). So that's mainly how I've come to conclude that Hermione did have a crush for a little bit. But again, since I can't see it clearly on my own, I surely can't tell whether she started to be a little interested after the Quidditch World Cup or if it was Krum's interest in her that started it.

JordanL

December 12th, 2004, 5:34 am

Could you show me the link for this one? It looks like you are mixing two different questions/answers.

We addressed this a few posts back.

As I said before, no one can understand why I person says such and such, does such and such, etc. What I'm saying is that Harry can understand parts of her - being different, having no friends, losing a parental figure.

If you understand these things than you find them acceptable, (as in they are things which are, and which should be for this person/situation).

If you empathize, you feel sorry for them, but you don't necessarily accept that the person is justified and/or correct.

McBeth

December 12th, 2004, 5:35 am

She might have heard some of it from Ginny (seeing as she seems to be the only one before OOTP to give Luna the time of day) and she might have gone looking for the rest.

While that's possible, it's unlikely, as Ginny was still refering to Luna as "Loony Lovegood" on the train to Hogwarts in OotP. I don't see her confiding in her a lot before then.

Again, as JordanL said. Pity really isn't a good way to start a relationship.

That's odd, because I think the exact opposite. I'm much more interested in people who I feel sorry for, because I think I can relate to them more than your average Joe Blow.

However, that's just me, and by no means am I saying that view is common.

The Leprechaun

December 12th, 2004, 5:36 am

But once again; whats your point? I said:
Another thing I find interesting about the quote debate is that pior to GoF there was never a shipping question asked about R/Hr, not one that I have ever seen. Only after GoF was any questions asked about Heron, it appears that most people pior GoF thought that it was going to be H/Hr, yet alot of Herons say they have seen this since book one.
So your not even addressing the point I made.

P.S "Who cares when it was released?" calm down a bit I put that in there because I had no idea what you were countering.

A lot of us? I'd say very few of us. Plus, it would be more like CoS that anyone really had any reason to start thinking Heron, but I don't think that is even correct. I am pretty sure that it is around PoA/GoF that anyone started jumping onto Heron in droves. I mean that is probably when shipping really took off.

McBeth

December 12th, 2004, 5:37 am

If you empathize, you feel sorry for them, but you don't necessarily accept that the person is justified and/or correct.

I don't understand what you mean. Can you please go into a bit more detail?

Polychrome

December 12th, 2004, 5:39 am

But once again; whats your point? I said:
Another thing I find interesting about the quote debate is that pior to GoF there was never a shipping question asked about R/Hr, not one that I have ever seen. Only after GoF was any questions asked about Heron, it appears that most people pior GoF thought that it was going to be H/Hr, yet alot of Herons say they have seen this since book one.
So your not even addressing the point I made.

Answer me honestly, who is going to ask JKR shippy questions about 11-year old kids while they're still 11?

When you get series about kids, most people will think of them as kids, even when they grow a little. By the time we reach Goblet of Fire, it kinda hits you like a semi-truck that these cute kids are now in high school. Of course, this is when the shippy questions are more likely to show up. For example, the "Platonic" quote came after Prisoner of Azkaban. Why would it have been asked then? Because people are starting to realize that these kids are growing up.

Claudia

December 12th, 2004, 5:39 am

Only after GoF was any questions asked about Heron, it appears that most people pior GoF thought that it was going to be H/Hr, yet alot of Herons say they have seen this since book one.Not me! Evidently it's necessary to bring out the big ol' plot-point hammer before I'm going to pick up on anything interesting. I didn't realize where we were headed till GoF. But with Heron hindsight, I can identify what I think are indicators for a R/Hr relationship even in Book 1 (and a whole lot more in Book 2).

JordanL

December 12th, 2004, 5:41 am

That's odd, because I think the exact opposite. I'm much more interested in people who I feel sorry for, because I think I can relate to them more than your average Joe Blow.

However, that's just me, and by no means am I saying that view is common.

Well... this goes into more psychology, but it has to do with inferiority complexes and how they affect your perception of others. I also feel attracted to someone I pity, but if I got into a relationship with them because of that, it would most likely hurt them very much and malign my self-worth and ability to communicate well.

I don't understand what you mean. Can you please go into a bit more detail?

I mean that if you empathize witha person you don't always accept their logic, causes or reasons for something.

In this case, Harry can still feel sorry for her, or empathize for her, and think she's crazy. He has to understand her, or know more about why she is the way she is, before he can accept the things she does. In otherwords, he can feel sorry for her about what's happened while still realizing why they happened.

Moonstruck

December 12th, 2004, 5:41 am

While that's possible, it's unlikely, as Ginny was still refering to Luna as "Loony Lovegood" on the train to Hogwarts in OotP. I don't see her confiding in her a lot before then.

And what do you make of it when she said, "Don't be silly,' said Ginny, laughing, 'she's all right." pg. 185? Not to mention the fact the two come out together when Harry and Hermione are fighting over Sirius?

That's odd, because I think the exact opposite. I'm much more interested in people who I feel sorry for, because I think I can relate to them more than your average Joe Blow.

However, that's just me, and by no means am I saying that view is common.

That's all right :) , but we don't know if JK believes that or not.

JordanL

December 12th, 2004, 5:43 am

That's all right :) , but we don't know if JK believes that or not.

Heh. Psychoanalyzing an author is supposed to be much more accurate than psychoanalyzing their work, but JK is a rather complex person... ;)

McBeth

December 12th, 2004, 5:44 am

Well... this goes into more psychology, but it has to do with inferiority complexes and how they affect your perception of others. I also feel attracted to someone I pity, but if I got into a relationship with them because of that, it would most likely hurt them very much and malign my self-worth and ability to communicate well.

Usually people don't get into a relationship solely because they pity the other person - they may become interested in the person because they pity them, but the relationship happens because they find their personality desirable.

I mean that if you empathize witha person you don't always accept their logic, causes or reasons for something.

In this case, Harry can still feel sorry for her, or empathize for her, and think she's crazy. He has to understand her, or know more about why she is the way she is, before he can accept the things she does.

Actually, if you go look after the chapter of the "Fight and Flight," Harry doesn't think of Luna negatively once. I believe his view of her changed dramatically during that dire time.

JordanL

December 12th, 2004, 5:47 am

Usually people don't get into a relationship solely because they pity the other person - they may become interested in the person because they pity them, but the relationship happens because they find their personality desirable.

Alright, but then you are basing it on nothing other than "I think they should be together". Until something happens that actually could catalyze such a relationship, there's no justification for thinking of Luna any different than you think of Neville.

Actually, if you go look after the chapter of the "Fight and Flight," Harry doesn't think of Luna negatively once. I believe his view of her changed dramatically during that dire time.

Actually, JK wrote Fight and Flight very consicesly. I don't think that any superfluous details should have been included, and Harry's opinions on Luna would fall into that catagory. The fact that they weren't included, indicating their surpurfluidity, actually lends credence to the Luna as a side character in respect to Harry theories.** In the chapters before, where he had time to do so, he still feels Luna is very weird and different in an unexplainable way.

**Editted to be included for clarity.

McBeth

December 12th, 2004, 5:51 am

Alright, but then you are basing it on nothing other than "I think they should be together". Until something happens that actually could catalyze such a relationship, there's no justification for thinking of Luna any different than you think of Neville.

No, I think they should be together because it's what I see in the canon. If you want a detailed analysis of my opinion on this, read my essay, Full Moon.

Actually, JK wrote Fight and Flight very consicesly. I don't think that any superfluous details should have been included, and Harry's opinions on Luna would fall into that catagory. In the chapters before, where he had time to do so, he still feels Luna is very weird and different in an unexplainable way.

Go and read Fight and Flight again - Harry described Luna negatively several times. Only after that chapter, in which Luna proves to him that her ideas aren't all bonkers (the thestrals), did Harry stop thinking of her in a negative light.

Charmed Cheese

December 12th, 2004, 5:52 am

The sinking of Luna/Neville is a huge blow to OBHWF, as it leaves Ron/Luna, Ginny/Neville, and Hermione/Neville afloat. The only non-OBHWF ship affected is Harry/Luna.

Now, in order for OBHWF to happen, of the six at the DoM, you'd only have Ron/Hermione and Harry/Ginny. Luna and Neville would both end up with outsiders or with no one at all.

Personally, I am relieved. I don't care for Heron or Chocolate, but I can take one or the other if they occur in canon, and be okay with it, although I'd always mourn for my lost love Harmony and write beauteous post-canon fanfic about the matter. One of my favorite couples in all current YA fantasy fiction (in Phil Pullman's HDM) don't end up together at the end, and I sigh over that, too, but *The Subtle Knife* is one of my favorite reads and better written than anything in the Potter series anyway. So I'm not of the "ship or perish" mindset.

But the whole notion of a double wedding makes my blood boil. I have always said that it would spoil my enjoyment of the series backward. After the way OotP went, I feel that would even more the case.

As far as theory is concerned, I had a lot of them pre-OotP, most of them debunked. This is one of the reason why I'm not active in fandom any longer! OotP, and JKR's website, shows us who's the real boss of this matter. I'm content to wait until Book Six and Book Seven. I promise I will eat my humble pie if we get OBHWF anyway. But if *my* ship happens, I promise I will be dishing it up quite liberally!

Ha! As soon as I read this on Rowling's site, I'd had to come here because I knew I would find people trying to twist Neville/Luna to destory other ships!

Neville/Luna is not part of this so-called "OBHWF". As far as I'm concerned relationships between two people are not dependant on other people.

Also, not a lot of R/Hr or H/G are Neville/Luna shippers...honestly doesn't that seem a bit too convenient?

Although I did appreciate her comment about how Luna's antics would be too weird for Neville...it would be equally so with Ron. Ron can't have anything stray from his status quo; he barely accepts the freedom of houseelves let alone snorcknaks or whatnot. I think Luna will be used to make Ron realize Hermione's antics are not so bad by comparison. ;)

I think it also shows the type of girl Neville needs. Someone who is more calm and quiet...obviously not Ginny! She's too forceful; she'd have him crying and curled up in a ball on the floor.

I'm not saying that N/L's sinking sinks other ships, but it does open more possiblities for what Neville and Luna need. Although, I must say, she put a stop to N/L, now if only she'd do the same for Neville/Ginny, Ron/Luna and Lupin/Tonks....

Also, I'm a Luna/George supporter. I think George is certainly open minded enough to accept her craziness, and Luna would certainly not hold objections to marrying a man who owns a joke shop. Does it have evidence? No, but right now, I don't think Luna's is foreshadowed to be with anybody. I think her crush on Ron's comedic effect purpose takes away from it being serious foreshadowing. If Luna ends up with someone, it will be side note or an amusing little tid bit. L/G would be amusing, and it would be a very "Austenian" twist to have a girl end up with her crushes brother. If all relationships in HP were foreshadowed, it would be awkward and make them seem more important than they really are. The only relationships that need foreshadowing are the relationships of Harry, Ron, and Hermione as they are the main characters. Another reason I don't support N/G. As of the moment, they are minor characters, and foreshadowing is not needed (not that I've seen convincable foreshadowing for that ship anyway).

As for double weddings, they don't have to get married the same day... :huh:

All in all, I was really pleased to see Rowling squash yet another ship! Although I am offended that H/G shippers were not ranked among the H/Hr and R/Hr. :p hehehe (for those who are humour-inept, that was a joke.)

delemtri

December 12th, 2004, 5:52 am

Well said, Charmed Cheese.

Toltec_7

December 12th, 2004, 5:54 am

A lot of us? I'd say very few of us.
Whatever, your really just splitting hairs there. I said alot not all of you, if your not one of these people then I wasn't talking about you, so don't worry about it.

Plus, it would be more like CoS that anyone really had any reason to start thinking Heron, but I don't think that is even correct. I am pretty sure that it is around PoA/GoF that anyone started jumping onto Heron in droves. I mean that is probably when shipping really took off.
Sorry but your wrong there, HP shipping has been around along time at least since 1998, but back then there was only two ships firing canon at each other, those being Harmony & Chocolate, Heron was nothing more than a paper boat with virtually no crew to sail her.

Answer me honestly, who is going to ask JKR shippy questions about 11-year old kids while they're still 11?

When you get series about kids, most people will think of them as kids, even when they grow a little. By the time we reach Goblet of Fire, it kinda hits you like a semi-truck that these cute kids are now in high school. Of course, this is when the shippy questions are more likely to show up. For example, the "Platonic" quote came after Prisoner of Azkaban. Why would it have been asked then? Because people are starting to realize that these kids are growing up.
I will answer you honestly, J.K has been asked shipping questions since at least CoS, and shippers have exsisted since PS.

Another thing about this, I wonder how many people read the books after seeing the movies? Not that this really has much to do with anything, though it would be interesting to know how many people started reading the books with preconceived ideas because they saw the movies first.

McBeth

December 12th, 2004, 5:54 am

And what do you make of it when she said, "Don't be silly,' said Ginny, laughing, 'she's all right." pg. 185? Not to mention the fact the two come out together when Harry and Hermione are fighting over Sirius?

On the same page she called Luna "Loony" - I'm not saying she said that because she views Luna like the rest of the school, but because she doesn't know her very well yet.

As for Ginny and Luna being together when the stumbled apon Harry and Hermione's I-Can-Roar-Louder-Than-You contest (I'm joking about the contest bit, so Harmonians, don't kill me), that was much later in the book, when Ginny and Luna had become faster friends.

JordanL

December 12th, 2004, 5:54 am

No, I think they should be together because it's what I see in the canon. If you want a detailed analysis of my opinion on this, read my essay, Full Moon.

I did just a few minutes ago, and as soon as I clicked on your links, I realize what I fight I must be picking with you.

Go and read Fight and Flight again - Harry described Luna negatively several times. Only after that chapter, in which Luna proves to him that her ideas aren't all bonkers (the thestrals), did Harry stop thinking of her in a negative light.

That's my point, he didn't stop thinking of her negatively because he never truly was to begin with. He just thought of her differently, which can be far harder to overcome than negatively.

At the end his perception of differentiation is overwhelmed by a sense of pity, and is the only reason that such a situation occurs, which is why I was so clear on the words you chose.

delemtri

December 12th, 2004, 5:56 am

Sorry but your wrong there, HP shipping has been around along time at least since 1998, but back then there was only two ships firing canon at each other, those being Harmony & Chocolate, Heron was nothing more than a paper boat with virtually no crew to sail her.

Firing canon - I love it! I don't remember them being Harmony and Chocolate back then - just H/H and H/G, no?

JordanL

December 12th, 2004, 5:57 am

Firing canon - I love it! I don't remember them being Harmony and Chocolate back then - just H/H and H/G, no?

I wouldn't know, because I wasn't even reading the books back then...

delemtri

December 12th, 2004, 5:59 am

I wouldn't know, because I wasn't even reading the books back then...

You young'ns with your psychoanalysis.

Polychrome

December 12th, 2004, 5:59 am

Toltec_7

December 12th, 2004, 6:00 am

Firing canon - I love it! I don't remember them being Harmony and Chocolate back then - just H/H and H/G, no?
You are correct, they were not called that then, if I believe right Harmony was known as "Pumpkin Pie" and Chocolate was known as "Orange Crush", I could be wrong here but those are the only other names that I have known them as.

McBeth

December 12th, 2004, 6:00 am

I did just a few minutes ago, and as soon as I clicked on your links, I realize what I fight I must be picking with you.

If I'm correct in assuming that's a compliment, thank you. :)

That's my point, he didn't stop thinking of her negatively because he never truly was to begin with. He just thought of her differently, which can be far harder to overcome than negatively.

At the end his perception of differentiation is overwhelmed by a sense of pity, and is the only reason that such a situation occurs, which is why I was so clear on the words you chose.[/QUOTE]

So you're saying Harry didn't think of her negatively, just as being different, before going to the DoM?

Also, how is thinking someone is different more difficult to overcome then thinking of someone negatively? Why does someone need to overcome thinking of someone as being different? Everyone's different - people are often attracted to another because they find them different from other people.

JordanL

December 12th, 2004, 6:01 am

You young'ns with your psychoanalysis.

:lol:

I picked up the books sometime in the middle of 1999 methinks, but since I wasn't introduced to fanfiction until 2001, shipping had never occurred to me, (even though I HAD contemplated couples). And because I wasn't introduced to fanfiction until 2001, it was at least the middle of 2002 before I started to connect fandom and Harry Potter...

But I WAS doing psychology back then. ;)

delemtri

December 12th, 2004, 6:02 am

But I WAS doing psychology back then. ;)

I guess that means you'll grow out of it soon enough. ;)

You are correct, they were not called that then, if I believe right Harmony was known as "Pumpkin Pie" and Chocolate was known as "Orange Crush", I could be wrong here but those are the only other names that I have known them as.

I've never heard either. I frequented other sites several years ago and joined this one over a year and a half ago and I'd only heard them called H/H, H/G, and R/H until I came back here under a month ago.

Moonstruck

December 12th, 2004, 6:02 am

On the same page she called Luna "Loony" - I'm not saying she said that because she views Luna like the rest of the school, but because she doesn't know her very well yet.

But we don't know their relationship. It's something that isn't explained to us. There is also the possiblity that Luna and Ginny know each other (the Lovegoods live near the Burrow).

Luna also doesn't seem to mind Ginny that much, which could mean they have had contact in the past.

As for Ginny and Luna being together when the stumbled apon Harry and Hermione's I-Can-Roar-Louder-Than-You contest (I'm joking about the contest bit, so Harmonians, don't kill me), that was much later in the book, when Ginny and Luna had become faster friends.

KILL! :p Kidding!

But how do you know they've become faster friends? How do we know they wouldn't always like that?

JordanL

December 12th, 2004, 6:04 am

If I'm correct in assuming that's a compliment, thank you. :)

It was indeed. I found the holes that I believe exist in your essay, but they are semantical in calibur.

So you're saying Harry didn't think of her negatively, just as being different, before going to the DoM?

Also, how is thinking someone is different more difficult to overcome then thinking of someone negatively? Why does someone need to overcome thinking of someone as being different? Everyone's different - people are often attracted to another because they find them different from other people.

Yes, that's what I'm saying.

It can be more difficult to overcome because of the nature of the two. To overcome negative, you just need a few positive things. To overcome different, you must show how the person is similar to you, which is vastly more difficult. This is why racism is so hard to dispel, even among very good people of a despised ethnicity.

I guess that means you'll grow out of it soon enough. ;)

Yes.... unless I dont!

Polychrome

December 12th, 2004, 6:05 am

Another thing about this, I wonder how many people read the books after seeing the movies? Not that this really has much to do with anything, though it would be interesting to know how many people started reading the books with preconceived ideas because they saw the movies first.

Well, there's a reason that the movies lean Ron/Hermione. Because the BOOKS do. ;)

But in all seriousness, when I first saw the previews for Sorceror's Stone, I simply picked up the first two books and read them to see what the big deal was about. (They were simply what was available around the house at the time.) I thought Ginny's crush was cute in a puppy-love sense but I never saw anything farther than that. At Christmas, when the next two became available around the house, (and I actually read Goblet of Fire and Prisoner of Azkaban out of order), I saw Ron/Hermione and thought it was hilarious in the Ranma 1/2 sense. I could not come up with any logical conclusion for Harry. There were seemingly multiple love interests. But Hermione was never in the competition as far as I'm concerned.

Either way, it was not serious shipping. It was only my interpretation at the time. I was not on the internet arguing it. I simply shrugged and went back to watching ReBoot. :rotfl:

McBeth

December 12th, 2004, 6:05 am

But we don't know their relationship. It's something that isn't explained to us. There is also the possiblity that Luna and Ginny know each other (the Lovegoods live near the Burrow).

Luna also doesn't seem to mind Ginny that much, which could mean they have had contact in the past.

But how do you know they've become faster friends? How do we know they wouldn't always like that?

Entirely because Ginny refered to Luna as "Loony," and considering Loony is the nickname people who aren't nice to Luna gave her, I don't know why I friend of hers would call her that.

delemtri

December 12th, 2004, 6:06 am

It was indeed. I found the holes that I believe exist in your essay, but they are semantical in calibur.

McBeth is very good at what she does.

Yes.... unless I dont!

I suppose it could be exactly because you entered the series late that you're one of the ones who doesn't buy my HP-is-a-different-world thing.

McBeth

December 12th, 2004, 6:07 am

It was indeed. I found the holes that I believe exist in your essay, but they are semantical in calibur.

Would you mind pointing out the holes to me, when you have the chance, please?

Yes, that's what I'm saying.

It can be more difficult to overcome because of the nature of the two. To overcome negative, you just need a few positive things. To overcome different, you must show how the person is similar to you, which is vastly more difficult. This is why racism is so hard to dispel, even among very good people of a despised ethnicity.

But hasn't Harry already found how the person is similar to him? By being an outcast, and losing a loved one?

delemtri

December 12th, 2004, 6:10 am

But hasn't Harry already found how the person is similar to him? By being an outcast, and losing a loved one?

This is really my problem with H/L - they don't have *traits* in common, they have facts of their lives in common.

Moonstruck

December 12th, 2004, 6:12 am

Entirely because Ginny refered to Luna as "Loony," and considering Loony is the nickname people who aren't nice to Luna gave her, I don't know why I friend of hers would call her that.

But isn't Ginny nice to Luna? I thought she was.

McBeth

December 12th, 2004, 6:14 am

JordanL

December 12th, 2004, 6:14 am

Would you mind pointing out the holes to me, when you have the chance, please?

I'll Owl them to you.

But hasn't Harry already found how the person is similar to him? By being an outcast, and losing a loved one?

Perhaps, but if you want to talk about life experiences.... I mean, very few people who are abused end up with other people who are abused. Very few people who are abusive end up with other people who are abusive. Very few people who are abandoned end up with others that are abandoned. similarities in hidtory rarely denote a budding relationship. Usually, as Jung points out, people search for those that complete them.

McBeth

December 12th, 2004, 6:15 am

This is really my problem with H/L - they don't have *traits* in common, they have facts of their lives in common.

And thus they have similar comprehension levels. ;)

The Leprechaun

December 12th, 2004, 6:16 am

Whatever, your really just splitting hairs there. I said alot not all of you, if your not one of these people then I wasn't talking about you, so don't worry about it.

Sorry but your wrong there, HP shipping has been around along time at least since 1998, but back then there was only two ships firing canon at each other, those being Harmony & Chocolate, Heron was nothing more than a paper boat with virtually no crew to sail her.

Funny how you argue that a lot of Herons say they saw the relationship since book 1, and then say that Heron was nothing but paper dingy at the time. Unless, you are referring to the fact that, in retrospect, we see the build up.

I will answer you honestly, J.K has been asked shipping questions since at least CoS, and shippers have exsisted since PS.

Another thing about this, I wonder how many people read the books after seeing the movies? Not that this really has much to do with anything, though it would be interesting to know how many people started reading the books with preconceived ideas because they saw the movies first.

Okay.

I saw the first movie in 2002 and thought Harmony. I then read the first three books and saw person after person come that might be a choice for Harry (Hermione, Ginny, and Cho). I never considered Ron for one second. That is until I read GoF about two or three weeks after CoS came out (which I didn't see until it came out on DVD) and thought Heron and Harry/Cho (still 2002). I then saw CoS and saw the non-hug and was even more sure that Ron and Hermione might work out (but I wasn't that much more sure, they are the movies after all). When OotP came out I saw Harry/Cho it disappear and IMO Chocolate come to the front more or less and that Heron was still going strong. PoA made it seem more like Heron was possible. I then started shipping in early september and haven't changed ships yet (though I have gained a lot of respect for Moonlight).

McBeth

December 12th, 2004, 6:16 am

But isn't Ginny nice to Luna? I thought she was.

Ginny's nice to about everyone, I'd bet, until they're not nice to her.

But since she called Luna "Loony," I doubt the two were close friends at that time.

roorocks180

December 12th, 2004, 6:17 am

You are correct, they were not called that then, if I believe right Harmony was known as "Pumpkin Pie" and Chocolate was known as "Orange Crush", I could be wrong here but those are the only other names that I have known them as.

they still are. :o I still hear both a lot. Actually I didn't even know about harmony and chocolate before I saw this thread. o.O
but whatever.

-goes back to watching- o.o

Charmed Cheese

December 12th, 2004, 6:18 am

Charmed Cheese:

I made a similar argument earlier that was completely ignored. However, I'm so glad that I'm not the only one who feels this way. Neville/Luna never, ever contributed to the OBHWF dynamic, simply because no Weasleys are involved. So thanks for a great post.

thanks.Yours was a great post too...it's actually where I first saw Ebonyink's post and went to find it.

I think both Neville and Luna have very symbolic roles to play in Harry's life, and the two of them dating doesn't work.

In a coming of age story, the hero has to face death, maddness and sex. In the Order of Phoenix, he faced this triangle embodied in Bellatrix Lestrange. She spoke like a mad woman, as a female, belittled his masculinity by speaking to him in baby talk, and then brought death by killing Sirius.

Harry also faces the "pseudo-death/maddness" of his two best friends:
-Hermione falling to the ground unconscious
-Ron acting mad then being strangled by a brain/mind (symbolic of a the mad mind destroying the body...not of "Hermione suffocating him"...lol not everything is about shipping ;)).
I think in light of the Harmony ship which highlights Hermione's false alarm death, Ron's false alarm maddness is ignored, when it recieves equal weight from JKR as well as equal concern and panic from Harry. The significance is in what has happened to BOTH his friends and it has nothing to do with shipping.

Then, that leaves Neville and Luna. How do they fit in?
-Hermione's pseudo-death: Neville remained cool and collect. He checked her pulse and declared her alive. As a kid whose parents are mad, Neville sees death as a lesser punishment. Neville is a figure that can deal with death and is not afraid of it: a perfect guide for Harry.
-Ron's pseudo-maddness: Luna remain non-chalant about Ron's behaviour, she never took it as a threat. For "Loony" Lovegood, maddness isn't so scary. She can help Harry face death.

That leaves Ginny the last one of the sextet, and the last of the three rites of passage, sex. I'll let you draw your own conclusions on that one. ;)

McBeth

December 12th, 2004, 6:18 am

Perhaps, but if you want to talk about life experiences.... I mean, very few people who are abused end up with other people who are abused. Very few people who are abusive end up with other people who are abusive. Very few people who are abandoned end up with others that are abandoned. similarities in hidtory rarely denote a budding relationship. Usually, as Jung points out, people search for those that complete them.

But Luna does complete Harry, in a sense, as she knows how to deal with the loss of a loved one, while Harry doesn't.

Melcb98

December 12th, 2004, 6:19 am

Originally Posted by Toltec_7
Another thing about this, I wonder how many people read the books after seeing the movies? Not that this really has much to do with anything, though it would be interesting to know how many people started reading the books with preconceived ideas because they saw the movies first.
I was one of those! I saw the first two movies before I read the books....and I started to read the books "kicking and screaming." Wow- how reading the books opened my eyes.
As for shipping- I actually didn't think about it till I read the third book! Thats when I thought Ron and Hermione.

Well, there's a reason that the movies lean Ron/Hermione. Because the BOOKS do.
I agree!

Toltec_7

December 12th, 2004, 6:22 am

Funny how you argue that a lot of Herons say they saw the relationship since book 1, and then say that Heron was nothing but paper dingy at the time. Unless, you are referring to the fact that, in retrospect, we see the build up.
No what I am saying is that up untill GoF (y2K) nobody shipped Heron, but now that Heron is a firmly estabished ship some people are saying that they have seen Heron since the begining (book one), but as I said if your not one of these people (as my comments where directed to these people) why are you bothering to debate this?

Melcb98

December 12th, 2004, 6:24 am

But Luna does complete Harry, in a sense, as she knows how to deal with the loss of a loved one, while Harry doesn't.
Very true, Luna is going to be able to help Harry in ways that Ron and Hermione can't.

Polychrome

December 12th, 2004, 6:28 am

A Question for Those of You Who Ship One Big Happy Weasley Family:

Many people believe One Big Happy Weasley Family is destined because of how everyone married up in The Little White Horse, by Elizabeth Goudge (JKR sighted in an interview that it was quite possible that LWH had a direct influence on Harry Potter more so than any other book).

My question is, why must it be One Big Happy Weasley Family? Couldn't it easily be One Big Happy Sextet?

I find OBHS to be much more like the relationships from LWH - Hermione and Ron are most definitely alike Sir Benjamin and Loveday Minette, while Maria/Robin and the Parson/Miss Heliotrope could fit into Moonlight and HMS Signs quite well.

Frankly, I don't find OBHWF to be much like how everyone married up in LWH at all.

Ever think that it may not be the ships that Little White Horse inspired?

Sure, a character may genuinely be a parody of another. Splendid and Lumpy in Happy Tree Friends are a parody of Rocky and Bullwinkle. But they never hang together and they certainly never solve crime together.

The reason OBHWF works in Harry Potter is because Harry considers the Weasleys to be his ideal family. The idea is that he is the orphan who would eventually marry into the family, making it official. Frankly, I have never heard of or read Little White Horse, but I like the idea of OBHWF because I believe that Harry's priorities in life are changing away from the past (as we see in Sorceror's Stone) to the possible future. He had never had a taste of real family life until Chamber of Secrets.

OBHWF does not work in the H/L case, and that's fine. It's not an argument for your ship. It's not really an argument for Chocolate either. It's more like the icing on the cake if you assume both Ron/Hermione and Harry/Ginny. But I can assure you that most of the people that came up with OBHWF did not come up with it from Little White Horse.

OBHWF does not work for Neville on the other hand. While he does have insane parents that can't be with him, we are given the impression that he has a large, loving, extended family.

JordanL

December 12th, 2004, 6:29 am

But Luna does complete Harry, in a sense, as she knows how to deal with the loss of a loved one, while Harry doesn't.

That's a very interesting arguement, but that's a small aspect to his personality. It might be the most important part to the storyline though.

The Leprechaun

December 12th, 2004, 6:31 am

No what I am saying is that up untill GoF (y2K) nobody shipped Heron, but now that Heron is a firmly estabished ship some people are saying that they have seen Heron since the begining (book one), but as I said if your not one of these people (as my comments where directed to these people) why are you bothering to debate this?

And how many Heron shippers agree with this, that are here?

Polychrome

December 12th, 2004, 6:31 am

In a coming of age story, the hero has to face death, maddness and sex.

You know something? That's a GREAT way to put it! :rotfl:

Moonstruck

December 12th, 2004, 6:32 am

Ginny's nice to about everyone, I'd bet, until they're not nice to her.

But since she called Luna "Loony," I doubt the two were close friends at that time.

But we don't even know what Ginny meant when she said Loony. She could be just saying it because it's a common nickname for Luna (whether she agrees with it or not). We don't know because we are not in Ginny's head.

jordmundt6

December 12th, 2004, 6:33 am

There are so many names for the ships. I was just going to commiserate with GillyAnn about voting for the number of chapters on the FAQ. I understand her enthusiasm, but at the same time I don't want to find out that this thing is just PoA length. I cherish the hope of another gargantuan entry like OotP for the simple reason that it means more material. Still, the fact that she wrote it this fast (and yet slow by her own early-series standards) indicates it's probably PoA length or bordering on GoF length at the outside. About the ships. It does depend on your exposure. I didn't really pay much attention to Cho as a love interest (a serious one), not ever. However, I think my point of view was skewed by the order in which I read the books. Had I read them in the order they came out, I would probably be one of the most tenacious and vicious Herons in fandom. But I read the books SS, PoA, CoS, GoF OotP, so I didn't put as much importance on Ron's dependence on Hermione or read his horrible treatment of her in PoA with CoS ("I don't need my wand, I'm going to kill him with my bare hands") as background. As it is, I'm a proud, but fair (I hope) Harmonian. One of my great hopes is that Ron if he does hit the jackpot yet AGAIN will grow up and stop feeling so sorry for himself. The odd thing is, he has just about everything he's ever wanted and it still doesn't make him happy (all he's missing is Quidditch Captaincy and HB selection--neither of which he deserves, but he got the Prefect's badge, so anything is possible).

As to Luna helping Harry--I think she's already helped him as significantly as she's going to in the series. Seeing her long-suffering attitude in the face of adversity he was moved to pity and it broke him out of his deepest funk. Her faith in an afterlife is a comforting thought for him, but because it's HER that espouses it, he's inclined to distrust it. I think he will end up turning to Hermione again and she will have to face her own issues with eternity (witness her absolute phobia of the Veil) to help him properly. About Ginny and Luna--Ginny is generally nice to most people (the root of her popularity). She was civil toward but dismissive of Luna in the beginning but I think DA experience, and, particularly, Luna saving her and Ron's lives in that Planet room has helped the growth of true respect and friendship (rather like the mountain troll episode for the Trio).

Melcb98

December 12th, 2004, 6:35 am

But we don't even know what Ginny meant when she said Loony. She could be just saying it because it's a common nickname for Luna (whether she agrees with it or not). We don't know because we are not in Ginny's head.
Yeah, but Loony is not a positive word. Ginny and Luna knew each other from classes and such, and were probably on ok terms there, and I doubt Ginny was one of those people who are outwardly mean to Luna- but I don't think they really talked, until OotP.

JordanL

December 12th, 2004, 6:36 am

And how many Heron shippers agree with this, that are here?

You know, arguements that must ask the question, or that get shot down or even debated on the premise of how many of what kind of shipper agrees are stupid.

All the people in the world may believe the lie but the truth would still be true.

Charmed Cheese

December 12th, 2004, 6:37 am

You know something? That's a GREAT way to put it! :rotfl:

Hey, it's not me, it's the conventional quotas for a bildungsroman. :p

Moonstruck

December 12th, 2004, 6:41 am

Yeah, but Loony is not a positive word. Ginny and Luna knew each other from classes and such, and were probably on ok terms there, and I doubt Ginny was one of those people who are outwardly mean to Luna- but I don't think they really talked, until OotP.

You are talking to the girl who is using lunatic as a username. I see loony as something that can be postive.

The Leprechaun

December 12th, 2004, 6:42 am

You know, arguements that must ask the question, or that get shot down or even debated on the premise of how many of what kind of shipper agrees are stupid.

All the people in the world may believe the lie but the truth would still be true.

Wait a second here. I ask for a quick poll of some very good Heron shippers like McBeth, Polychrome, and Charmed Cheese (I think) and you say that what I am doing is stupid. You said A LOT and I am trying to find out if the current group of Heron shippers flow with that "a lot".

JordanL

December 12th, 2004, 6:45 am

Wait a second here. I ask for a quick poll of some very good Heron shippers like McBeth, Polychrome, and Charmed Cheese (I think) and you say that what I am doing is stupid. You said A LOT and I am trying to find out if the current group of Heron shippers flow with that "a lot".

I never asked anything about what you're discussing. I was saying that any arguement for which such a question must be asked to answer it is stupid.. I think any position criticising about what "most Heron's think" is stupid because guess what: most Herons could be wrong, and then what are you criticising?

When you attack what most Herons or most Harmonians think, you are trying to make the people in that group feel unjustified... you are trying to take away their edification in the writing. No offence Toltec, but I just don't see the worth in such arguements.

Melcb98

December 12th, 2004, 6:46 am

You are talking to the girl who is using lunatic as a username. I see loony as something that can be postive.
How was it positive in the books??

Charmed Cheese

December 12th, 2004, 6:49 am

Wait a second here. I ask for a quick poll of some very good Heron shippers like McBeth, Polychrome, and Charmed Cheese (I think) and you say that what I am doing is stupid. You said A LOT and I am trying to find out if the current group of Heron shippers flow with that "a lot".

Yes I am heron. :)

I picked up on the ironic undertones in PS for R/Hr, as well as some odd attention on Gin clues, but I really didn't think too much of it. Quite truthfully, I wasn't expecting any romance at all. And, I certainly did not ship H/G after book 1, because I thought Ginny was around 6 years old until I read CoS (one of my pet peeves with authors:give the ages of children...it's really hard to tell!).

At first, I did assume Hermione/Harry, but no real attachement .

I honestly don't know why or how I started to ship R/Hr and H/G, it's just the solution I saw with JKR's clues and foreshadowing when I looked back through the books.

Moonstruck

December 12th, 2004, 6:51 am

How was it positive in the books??

So you think Ginny was being insulting when she said Loony Lovegood? Dispite the fact that there is no evidence that she looks down on Luna?

The Leprechaun

December 12th, 2004, 6:53 am

I never asked anything about what you're discussing. I was saying that any arguement for which such a question must be asked to answer it is stupid.. I think any position criticising about what "most Heron's think" is stupid because guess what: most Herons could be wrong, and then what are you criticising?

When you attack what most Herons or most Harmonians think, you are trying to make the people in that group feel unjustified... you are trying to take away their edification in the writing. No offence Toltec, but I just don't see the worth in such arguements.

Oh, ok. I thought you were calling my question stupid, but you were calling the argument that had me asking the question as stupid, right?

Melcb98

December 12th, 2004, 6:53 am

So you think Ginny was being insulting when she said Loony Lovegood? Dispite the fact that there is no evidence that she looks down on Luna?
Yes, I do. You think that was a positive thing to say?

jordmundt6

December 12th, 2004, 6:56 am

I'd quibble with the "no evidence" statement--she shares Hermione's opinion of Luna's beliefs, even if she doesn't phrase it as bluntly. Still, I think things changed in the DoM. The fact that they didn't change for Ron is, well, depressing because it seems to indicate Ron's still at the "prettiest girl who'll notice me" stage.

Moonstruck

December 12th, 2004, 6:56 am

Yes, I do. You think that was a positive thing to say?

It would depend on whether or not Ginny is friends with Luna (which I think she is and therefore, think is positive.).

JordanL

December 12th, 2004, 6:58 am

Oh, ok. I thought you were calling my question stupid, but you were calling the argument that had me asking the question as stupid, right?

Correct.

The Leprechaun

December 12th, 2004, 6:58 am

JordanL

December 12th, 2004, 6:59 am

Yes, I do. You think that was a positive thing to say?

This is off topic. [/irony] ;)

The Leprechaun

December 12th, 2004, 7:00 am

Correct.

Okay.

Just as a curiousity, why do you have the torpedo->Chocolate, Moonlight thing in your sig?

delemtri

December 12th, 2004, 7:01 am

Okay.

Just as a curiousity, why do you have the torpedo->Chocolate, Moonlight thing in your sig?

He doesn't sail on ships - he stays on land (and in a different world, in my opinion) and *attempts* to sink them.

JordanL

December 12th, 2004, 7:02 am

Okay.

Just as a curiousity, why do you have the torpedo->Chocolate, Moonlight thing in your sig?

Well, those are the only two ships which I really think we should be able to tell aren't cannon. Chocolate is much more of a personal belief than one of empiricle evidence, but I can in my opinion debunk Moonlight fairly easily from a literary tools POV. I can do Chocolate from a psychological point of view, but that's something most people besides myself aren't going to accept.

Melcb98

December 12th, 2004, 7:02 am

It would depend on whether or not Ginny is friends with Luna (which I think she is and therefore, think is positive.).
Well, loony is not positive to me.

JordanL

December 12th, 2004, 7:02 am

He doesn't sail on ships - he stays on land (and in a different world, in my opinion) and *attempts* to sink them.

Ah, see, you're using the wrong verb again. Attempts implies I fail. ;)

delemtri

December 12th, 2004, 7:03 am

Well, those are the only two ships which I really think we should be able to tell aren't cannon. Chocolate is much more of a personal belief than one of empiricle evidence, but I can in my opinion debunk Moonlight fairly easily from a literary tools POV. I can do Chocolate from a psychological point of view, but that's something most people besides myself aren't going to accept.

I really like how you pretend not to ship Harmony - it helps with your credibility.

JordanL

December 12th, 2004, 7:03 am

Well, loony is not positive to me.

Again, off topic. [/irony_again] :evil:

delemtri

December 12th, 2004, 7:04 am

Ah, see, you're using the wrong verb again. Attempts implies I fail. ;)

The only one with the power to sink a ship is JKR. This is not something I expect a heretic to understand, however (ref our previous discussions about this).

JordanL

December 12th, 2004, 7:04 am

I really like how you pretend not to ship Harmony - it helps with your credibility.

:lol:

I don't like Harmony enough to ship it, because there are empiricle problems with it, but I certainly like more than I like Heron, because I find more empiricle evidence against that.

Honestly, the Herons tend to drift into my area of arguement more than the Harmonians, (though why I'm not sure).

The only one with the power to sink a ship is JKR. This is not something I expect a heretic to understand, however (ref our previous discussions about this).

A heretic am I? I don't know if I should be offended or not. :P

Moonstruck

December 12th, 2004, 7:04 am

Well, loony is not positive to me.

You must understand insanity in order to see it as postive. :D

Melcb98

December 12th, 2004, 7:06 am

You must understand insanity in order to see it as postive. :D
I guess so- since Luna doesn't see it as positive and Harry felt quilty for calling her Loony (not positive), so......I really don't think its positive.

delemtri

December 12th, 2004, 7:07 am

:lol:

I don't like Harmony enough to ship it, because there are empiricle problems with it, but I certainly like more than I like Heron, because I find more empiricle evidence against that.

Honestly, the Herons tend to drift into my area of arguement more than the Harmonians, (though why I'm not sure).

Well, Hermione could always not date.

A heretic am I? I don't know if I should be offended or not. :P

We *have* talked about this before, when we talked about your refusal to accept interview quotes as canon - you're a Potterverse atheist.

ETA: Well, really, you try as hard as you can not to live in the Potterverse anyway...

JordanL

December 12th, 2004, 7:10 am

Well, Hermione could always not date.

Something I've considered, but JK has implied she will. *sigh* That means that she nullifies the empiricle problems with one of them, but the problem is, she could just as easily nullify the empiricle problems with either, and the information on HBP she has divulged gives us no clue who.

We *have* talked about this before, when we talked about your refusal to accept interview quotes as canon - you're a Potterverse atheist.

Yes, I recall that conversation, though you did misunderstand me if you think that I see all interviews as non-cannon. I see some of her responses as being subjective, but not as not being cannon.

ETA: Well, really, you try as hard as you can not to live in the Potterverse anyway...

Well, if that's so, a forum such as this is the perfect place to fail miserably I suppose.

Moonstruck

December 12th, 2004, 7:12 am

I guess so- since Luna doesn't see it as positive and Harry felt quilty for calling her Loony (not positive), so......I really don't think its positive.

1) Luna knows that people see her as odd (in other words, they don't understand insanity) so she knows it's being used negativity.

2) Harry likely doesn't understand insanity hence he sees it as wrong.

Melcb98

December 12th, 2004, 7:14 am

1) Luna knows that people see her as odd (in other words, they don't understand insanity) so she knows it's being used negativity.

2) Harry likely doesn't understand insanity hence he sees it as wrong.
Are you making this up or is it canon? understanding insanity? In canon, its not positive, you just pretty much admitted that.

delemtri

December 12th, 2004, 7:17 am

Something I've considered, but JK has implied she will. *sigh* That means that she nullifies the empiricle problems with one of them, but the problem is, she could just as easily nullify the empiricle problems with either, and the information on HBP she has divulged gives us no clue who.

Eh. She can sink any ship or sail any ship; this is not news to me.

Yes, I recall that conversation, though you did misunderstand me if you think that I see all interviews as non-cannon. I see some of her responses as being subjective, but not as not being cannon.

But you agreed with my assessment of you as an atheist.

Well, if that's so, a forum such as this is the perfect place to fail miserably I suppose.

It's more about mindset, really.

Moonstruck

December 12th, 2004, 7:19 am

Are you making this up or is it canon? understanding insanity? In canon, its not positive, you just pretty much admitted that.

I think Dumbledore is insane (and so does Ron), but he is protrayed very postivity.

JordanL

December 12th, 2004, 7:20 am

Eh. She can sink any ship or sail any ship; this is not news to me.

Which was nearly the point of my first essay.

But you agreed with my assessment of you as an atheist.

I don't really mind that label, as for some inexplicable reason it implies logical, (even though IRL I'm quite Christian), which is how I'd like to see myself.

It's more about mindset, really.

True, as are all things.

delemtri

December 12th, 2004, 7:20 am

I think Dumbledore is insane (and so does Ron), but he is protrayed very postivity.

He's also not portrayed as insane.

jordmundt6

December 12th, 2004, 7:21 am

delemtri

December 12th, 2004, 7:21 am

I don't really mind that label, as for some inexplicable reason it implies logical, (even though IRL I'm quite Christian), which is how I'd like to see myself.

It's how everybody in the Love Thread would like to see themselves; and we all would like to see everybody else as illogical, swayed by their subjective view of the books...

Melcb98

December 12th, 2004, 7:22 am

I think Dumbledore is insane (and so does Ron), but he is protrayed very postivity.
....that doesn't answer my question, at all. Well, I guess it does- its your opinion, then? Oh, well- how did this get started?

JordanL

December 12th, 2004, 7:22 am

He's also not portrayed as insane.

Yes. He's not portrayed as insane, only characterized, which is a big difference.

delemtri

December 12th, 2004, 7:23 am

Leprechaun--(On Ron's arguable "Hermione" stage) Maybe, but he's crushing alone and quite immature about it. Still, you have to compliment him for the improvement in his taste. And I agree with your assessment of Hermione (though perhaps not your appraisal of Hermione's feelings). :D

He isn't crushing alone. Angua made a great post awhile back about Hermione's feelings in OOTP.

And stop bashing.

Yes. He's not portrayed as insane, only characterized, which is a big difference.

Not sure where you get that he's characterized as insane either.

JordanL

December 12th, 2004, 7:25 am

It's how everybody in the Love Thread would like to see themselves; and we all would like to see everybody else as illogical, swayed by their subjective view of the books...

Yes, but I don't really argue my subjective view on the books. To be perfectly honest, I prefer Heron and lone wolf.

Not sure where you get that he's characterized as insane either.

Well, portrayed implies action which reveals Dumbledore as being insane. Characterized means that someone has described him as insane.

delemtri

December 12th, 2004, 7:26 am

Yes, but I don't really argue my subjective view on the books. To be perfectly honest, I prefer Heron and lone wolf.

You certainly argue against Harry dating people.

Well, portrayed implies action which reveals Dumbledore as being insane. Characterized means that someone has described him as insane.

Not sure I agree with your definitions of words, but as long as we're clear that JKR isn't the one characterizing him that way.

Moonstruck

December 12th, 2004, 7:26 am

....that doesn't answer my question, at all. Well, I guess it does- its your opinion, then? Oh, well- how did this get started?

According to the books, Harry thought he was mad at the first feast. Percy agreed. Ron said he was off his rocker (phrase linked to insanity), but all of them saw him postivity.

Talking about how Ginny sees Luna, but I've got to go to bed. Night.

JordanL

December 12th, 2004, 7:27 am

You certainly argue against Harry dating people.

Well... I guess you got me there.

I argue against that mainly because everyone argues for it. I enjoy Chocolate quite a bit as well. The OBHWF is quite appealing.

delemtri

December 12th, 2004, 7:29 am

Well... I guess you got me there.

I argue against that mainly because everyone argues for it. I enjoy Chocolate quite a bit as well. The OBHWF is quite appealing.

Getting to knowwwwwww youuuuuuuuu, getting to know alllllll abouuuuuuuut you...

;).

JordanL

December 12th, 2004, 7:30 am

Getting to knowwwwwww youuuuuuuuu, getting to know alllllll abouuuuuuuut you...

*chuckles*

Well everyone has always assumed that I'm just some disgruntled person who hates everyone's ideas. No one's ever asked.

On that note though, it's time for me to go for the night. I'm working on a novel and I need to write some more.

delemtri

December 12th, 2004, 7:32 am

*chuckles*

Well everyone has always assumed that I'm just some disgruntled person who hates everyone's ideas. No one's ever asked.

On that note though, it's time for me to go for the night. I'm working on a novel and I need to write some more.

Writing is good. I'm writing a book about Potterversity. ;)

The Leprechaun

December 12th, 2004, 7:32 am

Angua9

December 12th, 2004, 7:35 am

Only after GoF was any questions asked about Heron, it appears that most people pior GoF thought that it was going to be H/Hr, yet alot of Herons say they have seen this since book one.
Thanks, Toltec, for wasting two hours of my life! :D

I didn't join any online discussion until August 2000, so I had no idea what "most people" thought. I know I had my first suspicion that R/Hr was developing in Oct. 1999 when I read the last few chapters of PoA. Anyway, I have spent the last two hours researching the question and found this (http://dir.salon.com/books/log/2000/07/06/potter_rumors/index.html?sid=879033) most interesting article in Salon.com (note: anyone can read it if you just watch an ad first).

Harry Potter rumor watch
The Internet buzzes with intimations of love and death.
By Laura Miller
July 06, 2000 (2 days before GoF release)

Who will fall?: Rowling has stated that not only will her characters fall in love in the fourth book, but they will be smitten by "all the wrong people." In the third book, Harry's kindling interest in Cho Chang, a fetching quidditch player, makes her the most obvious choice for his inamorata, but most fans also assume that Ron and Hermione will begin to see each other in a whole new light. Rowling has said that she will introduce the first really evil female character; rumor has it that her name will be Icicle and that she might be the object of Harry's ill-advised affection.

One fan on the has adopted "icicle" as her alias and has strong feelings about the potential pairings:

First of all I know there is going to be Ron/Hermione. I particuallay(sp) don't like that idea, but I know it will happen. Come on, Ron has a major crush on Hermione! I also am pretty sure there will be Harry/Cho. That is disgusting! Cho Chang is older! She is in her 5th year in the 4th book! I hope they break up! I also do not believe that Draco and Hermione will ever go out. They hate each other. Hermione hits Malfoy, and Malfoy calls Hermione a Mudblood, come on. I hope that Harry and Hermione go out. I truly don't know why, but you can see that Hermione likes Harry a little.

Cho is not a universally popular choice, apparently. "I think the only reason that Harry and Cho would go out on a date," writes Jess S. on the same board, "is if Harry asks Cho out and she says yes out of pity. There's just not any chemistry between them."

So it looks like R/Hr was an expected ship before Book 4 came out. I know several people who have shipped it since Book 1, but I don't think any of them are debating it here. For myself, I have been suspecting H/G since Book 1, but R/Hr only since Book 3.

I also found the [url=http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups-Archives/]archive (]Harry Potter Message Board[/url) of pre-GoF Harry Potter for Grownups posts. Fascinating!

ETA: In the HP4GU posts, R/Hr seems to have been the concensus pre-GoF, with H/G having a slight lead over H/C. Typical statement:

I think Cho is probably his "Ms. Wrong" that he will pair with in Book 4. And, I too think Ginny might eventually be the one for him, although it's sure hard to tell since she's just not a very developed character at this point.

If we believe JKR's statement that all 3 will fall for the wrong people (and since many of us have picked up on the obvious feelings between Ron and Hermione), who do we think the "wrong" people are for Ron & Hermione in Book 4?

delemtri

December 12th, 2004, 7:37 am

Angua.

Wow.

This agrees with what I remember: that H/G and H/C were the most common ships for Harry with H/H behind *both.*

The Leprechaun

December 12th, 2004, 7:43 am

Interesting Angua.

I didn't know this, of course I refused to read Harry Potter back then and until October 2002 I thought is was some cult over some pathetic series. But, I was wrong about that wasn't I.

Toltec_7

December 12th, 2004, 7:52 am

When you attack what most Herons or most Harmonians think, you are trying to make the people in that group feel unjustified... you are trying to take away their edification in the writing. No offence Toltec, but I just don't see the worth in such arguements.
No offence taken, at all. I was mearly making an observation, it was never really a debate topic. It is Leprechaun that is making a big deal out of this, because I said "alot" instead of "some". The point I was making was not really relevant to current shipping, I was just pointing out what I have observed and it was never really a topic for discussion, however like most things here people feel the need to pick on small things, like me saying "alot" instead of "some", but hey whatever floats your boat.

delemtri

December 12th, 2004, 7:55 am

No offence taken, at all. I was mearly making an observation, it was never really a debate topic. It is Leprechaun that is making a big deal out of this, because I said "alot" instead of "some". The point I was making was not really relevant to current shipping, I was just pointing out what I have observed and it was never really a topic for discussion, however like most things here people feel the need to pick on small things, like me saying "alot" instead of "some", but hey whatever floats your boat.

So basically what you're saying is you decided to snipe, somebody called you on it, and now you're grumpy...

jordmundt6

December 12th, 2004, 7:57 am

del--I respect Angua's research but I can throw a dozen of my fellow Harmonians into the mix who have equally compelling arguments for Hermione's increased feelings for Harry. And I'm not bashing. Ron's taste in women has improved, Hermione is a step up from Fleur (even if Bill doesn't agree, even cool guys can be wrong);) As for Ron's attitude, I've yet to see anybody give a convincing argument that his behavior is in any way excusablle at the Yule Brawl and his interaction with Hermione (except for selected instances like his gratitude for her swooping in to save him on homework after he shredded and burned Percy's letter) has been consistently awful. And his attitude about his home situation used to be endearing and understated. Now it's "I HATE being POOR" repeated at fairly regular intervals. I'm sure he's improved since GoF since he's seen how taxing the Voldemort connection is for Harry (he's not as jealous of the attention any more because he's aware of the price) but he still likes to...um...savor the spotlight when he gets it. What's more, he's proven he can't handle success any better than he can handle failure. Angelina practiically had to force him to stay on the team after each of the first two games, but he couldn't contain his enthusiasm about the Quidditch final. He played well, even as well as Wood on a good day, but Wood would have smacked him silly for going on about it the way he did. It's notable that Harry has never done that. The closest he came was a blow-by-blow description of his successful tackling of the Hungarian Horntail in a letter to Sirius. He's never acted like Ron or James (not in that way anyway). That said, I do like Ron a lot. I liked him much more in the first two books than I have in the latter three but I still like him a lot. As a character, I wish him the best, survival of the war, long illustrious life, happy marriage, carload of kids, and plenty of galleons to spoil them with. I just think he's been remarkably lucky and doesn't realize or..maybe..doesn't want to realize it.

This isn't meant to be bashing. This is just how I feel about Ron.

As to my comments about the Prefect badge--I was one of the ones who was positively furious when I read that and would have demanded an explanation had one not been provided at the end of OotP. It still wasn't a satisfying explanation. It would have been better if Ron had risen to the challenge and done a bang-up job as a Prefect but that just didn't happen. He was loath to even attempt to control his brothers (in situations where he has authority, Harry can control them with a look e.g. the DA, and in situations where he doesn't have authority, he knows how to control them subtly, e.g. bringing their business deal with Dung to a quick conclusion by mentioning Moody and his eye--a great deal more tactful AND effective than either Ron or Hermione--and it truly pains me to say that because Hermione is my favorite character), Ron looked down on the young'uns (though he did grow out of that as he got used to the job) and thinking up ways to try Firewhiskey--I know it's all in fun, but I thought Hermione's response was justified. Also, his method of controlling Seamus, not good. He basically threatened to use his Prefect's authority on Seamus the way that Umbridge exercised her authority on Harry (disagree with me and you get detention). That was probably the only option he could think of, but it definitely wasn't a good way to handle the situation. Again, I like Ron, I wish him the best, he has a lot of potential, but well, see above.

Now I'm perfectly aware that good Prefects don't always make good people outside Hogwarts (look at Tom and Percy--I hope the crow he eats in HBP has some Tabasco on it) but it's one of the gauges of his character progression.

I now defer to the Herons to respond, including their impressive Erudite standard bearer Angua if they feel it's worth their while. I know this is heated in places but I reiterate, I am quite fond of Ron, I am glad he got recognition for Quidditch and I hope that he's definitively over the hump as far as athletics go and I do wish the character the best in surviving the war and having a happy successful life after Hogwarts, I just think he has some growing up to do in these last two years of schooling. If he grew into an attitude more like that of his father (remember Arthur can still get riled and is still quite fiery at times) he'd be almost unimpeachable. But he's worlds away from that now.

delemtri

December 12th, 2004, 8:01 am

I don't really disagree with much of what you're saying about Ron. I'm just not sure where you draw the differentiation with Hermione, the bossy, insufferable know-it-all who tries to trick house-elves into picking up clothes and who nags the boys all through OOTP and through the series; and who is demonstrably interested in Ron.

ETA: Also, I hate the good prefect nonsense. If Harry had been a prefect he'd have been no more willing to stop Fred and George. He looks up to and enjoys the twins almost as much as Ron does.

Corbin Dallas

December 12th, 2004, 8:10 am

Jadecmn

December 12th, 2004, 8:11 am

I've been lurking all night and before I went to bed just wanted to say:

CharmedCheese, Angua9, jordmundt6, love your posts tonight. (Even though Ron is my fav., but a good post is a good post.)

delemtri

December 12th, 2004, 8:12 am

And let's not forget that
Harry financed pretty much all of Fred and George's pranks this past year...
CD

Indeed!

And I don't care about arguments proving Hermione likes Harry. All proof of that would do would be to level the playing field between the two ships - we *know* Ron is interested in Hermione and we *know* Harry is not interested in her. Trying to prove Hermione is interested in Harry is intrinsically defensive. If we're at a stalemate regarding Hermione's LI, Heron is winning.

Toltec_7

December 12th, 2004, 8:13 am

So basically what you're saying is you decided to snipe, somebody called you on it, and now you're grumpy...
Man you really do have an attitude dont you? I'm not grumpy at all. But I will explain why this was even brought up in the first place. This started when I made the argument that people who haven't seen or heard about J.K's now famous platonic quote from 1999, which would be most people in fandom, would not know that she, so called, "debunked" Harmony, as she has only ever said this once and even in a latter interview said the both Hermione & Ginny had a chance with Harry. Now this was countered with something about most readers seeing Ron & Hermione and I pointed out that most people before GoF did not see R/Hr, everything that followed came from there. So delemtri am I justified in what I said? or did i just "snipe" like you said?

delemtri

December 12th, 2004, 8:15 am

Man you really do have an attiude dont you? I'm not grumpy at all. But I will explain why this was even brought up in the first place. This started when I made the argument that people who haven't seen or heard about J.K's now famous platonic quote from 1999, which would be most people in fandom, would not know that she, so called, "debunked" Harmony, as she has only ever said this once and even in a latter interview said the both Hermione & Ginny had a chance with Harry. Now this was countered with something about most readers seeing Ron & Hermione and I pointed out that most people before GoF did not see R/Hr, everything that followed came from there. So delemtri am I justified in what I said? or did i just "snipe" like you said?

You didn't snipe (it sounded like you did from the way you described it in your first post) but you're not justified either (see Angua's last post).

As for my attitude - you *did* begin attacking Leprechaun and I *did* feel my characterization was a fair evaluation of your first description of what you did.

jordmundt6

December 12th, 2004, 8:16 am

Del--Now you're really threatening to get my dander up. Hermione loves house elves, she thinks they have a very raw deal and would all benefit from freedom--and get this--she's right. She hasn't learned the right way to spread her message yet, but she's right (both Arthur and Dumbledore are in complete agreement with her on this). She's bossy but she has a heart of gold, she helps the boys with their homework when they really need it, she's the one who usually talks Harry down when he isolates himself (look at Christmas) she offers sage insight into girls (though not when it would be most useful), she helps Harry get his message out, defends him to the hilt and takes tremendous risks both to help him and to protect him. She's as loyal as Ron and even more caring. Like I said in my edits I'm a true Hermione fanatic--in case you couldn't tell from the rhapsody I just typed. Ron doesn't have anything like this on his ledger to cancel out his rougher edges. He used to, but it's disappearing, much to my chagrin. I want to root for him, I want to sympathize but he doesn't appreciate what he has or realize that it's almost everything his heart desires--and he's STILL not satisfied with it. And for the most part, Hermione was a model Prefect--she didn't strut or abuse her power, she was a mostly calm, always correct voice of authority. She only loses her cool once over OWL nerves and she still manages to look out for her best buds by ensuring they don't ingest poison trying to get an edge studying for the all-important exams.

Corbin--Let's also remember that even financing deson't get you a free pass in the Twins' book. They'll still make fun of you, take you down a peg, and do whatever the darn well please no matter what you say unless you have the power to really hurt them (McGonagall or Molly, or Hermione reporting them to Molly). Harry can't pull their funding, they're just as ready to make fun of him play jokes on him, and generally give him a rough time as they were before. Harry knows how to appeal to their self-interest and exert authority quietly--who knew? Wonder where he got that from--Lily perhaps?

Del--Oh, we KNOW Harry isn't interested in Hermione do we? Hmm, there's good evidence to contradict that but--heck I've always been a fan of blanket statements.;)

Hagrid_Is_A_Oaf

December 12th, 2004, 8:19 am

Just thought I'd make a point.........

It's a habit of Harmonians to consider Hermione the heroine of the books. They think she'll be THE major asset to Harry defeating Voldemort. It's also common for Harmonians to characterize Ron as an immature clown compared to Hermione, but I'm not so sure. While Hermione is very booksmart, she often panicks in pressure situations. That's not a good thing when facing an evil lord. She's very textbook, examining the situation and then acting on what a book says you're supposed to do. But as Harry said in book five:

You think it's just memorizing a bunch of spells and throwing them at him, like your in class or something?

Ron, when serious, uses his gut instict and IMO is a little better at giving advice to Harry.

I'm not trying to bash Hermione, I'm just taking her down a level. She's not THE heroine of the story, she's A heroine. Ron and Hermione are both equally important to Harry and his eventual conquering of Voldemort.

delemtri

December 12th, 2004, 8:20 am

Get your dander up - I don't care. Read the essay in my profile if you feel the need to defend your cute little girl scout. She tried to trick the house elves and there is no way around that.

You have no canon to back up the assertion that Harry would exert quiet authority to try to stop the twins.

Del--Oh, we KNOW Harry isn't interested in Hermione do we? Hmm, there's good evidence to contradict that but--heck I've always been a fan of blanket statements.;)

Yes. We know it. I've always been a fan of Harry.

And - Well posted, Hagrid is an Oaf.

Hagrid_Is_A_Oaf

December 12th, 2004, 8:23 am

Also, I hate the good prefect nonsense. If Harry had been a prefect he'd have been no more willing to stop Fred and George. He looks up to and enjoys the twins almost as much as Ron does.

I agree. It's hard to stand up to an older sibling(s), especially when you admire them. And I'm not entirely sure Ron felt what they were doing was entirely wrong. Harry would have done the same, considering he's the twin's "financial backer".

Corbin Dallas

December 12th, 2004, 8:24 am

Corbin--Let's also remember that even financing deson't get you a free pass in the Twins' book. They'll still make fun of you, take you down a peg, and do whatever the darn well please no matter what you say unless you have the power to really hurt them (McGonagall or Molly, or Hermione reporting them to Molly). Harry can't pull their funding, they're just as ready to make fun of him play jokes on him, and generally give him a rough time as they were before. Harry knows how to appeal to their self-interest and exert authority quietly--who knew? Wonder where he got that from--Lily perhaps?
I disagree to an extent, Fred and George are not stupid, teasing or alienating Harry would only get Molly n their backs, besides Fred and George show loyalty to their close friends which Harry has become, see Lee Jordan. they pick on Ron as they did with their brothers, but for Harry they really haven't, ever if you think on it. Despite their love for prnaks they value loyalty too, think about what they said about disrupting the school, if they can help Harry talk to Sirius all the better and did they ever challenge hs authority in the DA, shouldn't they have as they do with others, what made Harry different. He gave them chance to fullfill their dreams. Loyalty is a poweerful thing ;) .
CD