Who will fall in love with whom? v40

[Moonstruck]

In a shipping sense, yes, I do believe that it is uninspiring. However, it is an appropriate and heartbreaking reaction for a friend, just not a love interest.

So a lover would never blame themselves for the other's death? I do believe I've seen that done before.

Let's take a look at his reaction to seeing Ginny in the Chamber of Secrets.

"Ginny!" Harry muttered, sprinting to her and dropping to his knees.
Ginny — don't be dead — please don't be dead —" He flung his wand aside,
grabbed Ginny's shoulders, and turned her over. Her face was white as
marble, and as cold, yet her eyes were closed, so she wasn't Petrified. But
then she must be—"
Ginny, please wake up," Harry muttered desperately, shaking her. Ginny's
head lolled hopelessly from side to side.

The words that he muttered were almost exactly the same as the scene where he sees Hermione. However, Ginny's scene contains many more adjectives and is much more descriptive. Conside that he barely knows Ginny in COS, but Hermione is his best friend of 5 years in OOTP. Ginny's scene is more indicative of a future romantic interest.

Execpt for two things: he doesn't blame himself for Ginny being death nor is he unable to look at Ginny. That's the key difference in those scenes.

[Polychrome]

Execpt for two things: he doesn't blame himself for Ginny being death nor is he unable to look at Ginny. That's the key difference in those scenes.

Probably because he had nothing to do with Ginny being lured down to the chamber. The situation was completely opposite. Ginny was blaming herself for luring *Harry*.

The situation in the Department of Mysteries was quite different. Harry was already upset for having led 5 good friends into a trap. He was blaming himself long before Hermione was injured.

[delemtri]

So a lover would never blame themselves for the other's death? I do believe I've seen that done before.

Harry blamed him for her death because it was his fault she was there.

[Heatherhobbit]

So a lover would never blame themselves for the other's death? I do believe I've seen that done before.

You are missing my point. Harry's reaction to Ron and Ginny's "deaths" was written with more emotion that his reaction to Hermione's.


Execpt for two things: he doesn't blame himself for Ginny being death nor is he unable to look at Ginny. That's the key difference in those scenes.
He is unable to look at Hermione because he is feeling guilt. Other than that you don't get much description about his emotions from Rowling in that scene. Witnessing a potential love interest's death should be much more emotional than some general guilt.


"Ginny!" Harry muttered, sprinting to her and dropping to his knees.
Ginny — don't be dead — please don't be dead —" He flung his wand aside,
grabbed Ginny's shoulders, and turned her over. Her face was white as
marble, and as cold, yet her eyes were closed, so she wasn't Petrified. But
then she must be—"
Ginny, please wake up," Harry muttered desperately, shaking her. Ginny's
head lolled hopelessly from side to side.

The scene is described in detail. Hermione's scene has far less detail considering her importance in his life.

A whine of panic inside his head was preventing him thinking properly: he had
one hand on Hermione's shoulder, which was still warm, yet did not dare look at
her properly. Don't let her be dead, don't let her be dead, it's my fault if she's
dead…
He wasn't desperate. He wasn't dropping to his knees and flinging his wand aside. His reaction to Hermione's "death" is just not written as nicely as Ginny's "death". I believe that was deliberate.

He wasn't thinking, "Oh, you can't be dead, Hermione! I need you badly." He was thinking "It's my fault." Not sorrow or a sense of loss, just guilt. While this reaction is appropriate for a platonic relationship, it is not appropriate for a future love interest.



The situation in the Department of Mysteries was quite different. Harry was already upset for having led 5 good friends into a trap. He was blaming himself long before Hermione was injured.
Exactly!

Nobody spoke. Harry did not want to look at any of them. He felt sick. He did
not understand why Sirius was not here. He had to be here. This was where he,
Harry, had seen him…


He did not want to hear what Ron had to say; did not want to hear Ron tell him
he had been stupid or suggest that they ought to go back to Hogwarts, but the heat
was rising in his face and he felt as though he would like to skulk down here in the
darkness for a long while before facing the brightness of the Atrium above and the
others' accusing stares…



He just wanted to get them all out of this alive, to make
sure none of his friends paid a terrible price for his stupidity…




The guilt was already there.

[Hagrid_Is_A_Oaf]

You find the possitbity of Harry blaming himself for Hermione's death and unable to look at her uninspiring? I felt Harry's sorrow at Hermione's death.

Harry cares a lot for both of his friends, but I think he would miss Ron more than Hermione. He says it in GoF: "Harry liked Hermione very much, but she just wasn't the same as Ron". And then the whole thing Harry would miss most. Ron as a friend means a lot to Harry. He was his first friend ever, and that is a BIG deal to Harry.

I'm not saying Harry dislikes Hermione compared to Ron, but he has more in common with Ron. I think it's safe to say that through OotP Harry has no "feelings" for Hermione and I haven't found any really strong evidence that she has a romantic interest in Harry. If you have spotted something, go ahead and point it out to me.

[yxs]

yxs

You don't have to figure out Hermione. Everything that is necessary for her character development in respect to the story is right there on the page. Hermione is not a real person. She is a literary character...an extention of Rowling's imagination. It's more important to try to figure out Rowling and her writing than to figure out Hermione. Hermione is only as complex as Rowling makes her. If a part of her personality is not written in text or subtext then it does not exist.

You have to separate what happens in real life to what happens in literature, even in literature that is very realistic. Once you do that literary analysis becomes much easier. In real life a girl like Hermione is probably very complex, but we only have what Rowling gives us. I think that when people assume too much about a character they misinterpret a lot. That's why I really don't like how Hermione is often misinterpretted as being a goddess of sorts by some shippers. She's a great girl, but she's not perfect. She has faults and imperfections that make her believable and, IMO, lovable to many readers.




Hm... I don't really get what you mean...
I just called her Hermione, instead of "book character called Hermione".
We are talking about those characters as though they're real in here, cause we're inside H Potter world... obviously.

Rowling is writing Hermione as quite confusing for us... What we get from the text does not help us to figure out her.
Only Rowling knows where she's taking her.
We don't.
And so far she has written her feelings ambiguous (for me at least). She has put clues in there for both sides... Hermione liking Ron and Harry.
Well, not of course everyone sees the Harry-side, lol... but most of us have mentioned here that the real question mark so far IS Hermione.

[Hagrid_Is_A_Oaf]

Execpt for two things: he doesn't blame himself for Ginny being death nor is he unable to look at Ginny. That's the key difference in those scenes.

I think it's unfair to compare harry's reaction to fearing Ginny's and Hermione's death. In CoS Harry barely knows Ginny (note his "saving people thing") more than Ron's little sister. His reaction is more out of the sake of Ron and the rest of the Weasley families grief than his.

[Moonstruck]

You are missing my point. Harry's reaction to Ron and Ginny's "deaths" was written with more emotion that his reaction to Hermione's.

Unable to look at her and blaming himself is not more emotional? Not in my book.


He is unable to look at Hermione because he is feeling guilt. Other than that you don't get much description about his emotions from Rowling in that scene. Witnessing a potential love interest's death should be much more emotional than some general guilt.

But his guilt isn't general. He is unable to look at her (he was able to look at Cedric). He blames himself for her 'death.' He also blamed himself for Sirius' death, who he loved deeply.


"Ginny!" Harry muttered, sprinting to her and dropping to his knees.
Ginny — don't be dead — please don't be dead —" He flung his wand aside,
grabbed Ginny's shoulders, and turned her over. Her face was white as
marble, and as cold, yet her eyes were closed, so she wasn't Petrified. But
then she must be—"
Ginny, please wake up," Harry muttered desperately, shaking her. Ginny's
head lolled hopelessly from side to side.

The scene is described in detail. Hermione's scene has far less detail considering her importance in his life.

A whine of panic inside his head was preventing him thinking properly: he had
one hand on Hermione's shoulder, which was still warm, yet did not dare look at
her properly. Don't let her be dead, don't let her be dead, it's my fault if she's
dead…
He wasn't desperate. He wasn't dropping to his knees and flinging his wand aside. His reaction to Hermione's "death" is just not written as nicely as Ginny's "death". I believe that was deliberate.

He wasn't thinking, "Oh, you can't be dead, Hermione! I need you badly." He was thinking "It's my fault." Not sorrow or a sense of loss, just guilt. While this reaction is appropriate for a platonic relationship, it is not appropriate for a future love interest.

Hermione's scene did not have detail because Harry was paniking. He wasn't thinking clearly (therefore, he had no way to describe the scene). He wasn't looking at Hermione so he could not describe how she looked. There was a reason for the lack of detail and it was because Harry's emotions would not let him add detail.

[Heatherhobbit]

Hm... I don't really get what you mean...
I just called her Hermione, instead of "book character called Hermione".
We are talking about those characters as though they're real in here, cause we're inside H Potter world... obviously.
People assume they know more about Hermione than what Rowling has given us in text or subtext. This happens a lot in shipping. That's why her character is misinterpretted so often. Shippers forget what Canon!Hermione is because of all the assumptions they make about her.

Rowling is writing Hermione as quite confusing for us... What we get from the text does not help us to figure out her.
Only Rowling knows where she's taking her.
We don't.
And so far she has written her feelings ambiguous (for me at least). She has put clues in there for both sides... Hermione liking Ron and Harry.
Well, not of course everyone sees the Harry-side, lol... but most of us have mentioned here that the real question mark so far IS Hermione.
The real question mark is ROWLING and how she is writing Hermione. It's basic literary convention. There are certain "rules" in literature. Rowling describes Hermione as having bushy hair, buck teeth, and a nagging voice. She has attached many negative adjectives and adverbs to Hermione's dialogue. She describes her as "not ugly" and only pretty when she doesn't look like Hermione at all. In all the books I've ever read, a protagonist's love interest has never been described this way. Love interests of the protagonists tend to have more colorful descriptions.

[Hagrid_Is_A_Oaf]

You are missing my point. Harry's reaction to Ron and Ginny's "deaths" was written with more emotion that his reaction to Hermione's.

And I don't think you can use this situation to decide if Harry has a romantic interest in Hermione. Obviously, if one of your friends appeared to be dead you would be distraught regardless of romantic feelings for them. Just because you don't have "feelings" for them doesn't mean your not going to be filled with grief when they appear dead.

[Heatherhobbit]

Unable to look at her and blaming himself is not more emotional? Not in my book.

Compare the number of emotional descriptive words in the two scenes. Ginny's has more. I bolded them in my previous post.



But his guilt isn't general. He is unable to look at her (he was able to look at Cedric). He blames himself for her 'death.' He also blamed himself for Sirius' death, who he loved deeply.

His guilt wasn't Hermione-specific. He felt guilty about a lot of things that night. If Rowling intended for Hermione to be his love interest, she would have given this scene a bit more attention.



Hermione's scene did not have detail because Harry was paniking. He wasn't thinking clearly (therefore, he had no way to describe the scene). He wasn't looking at Hermione so he could not describe how she looked. There was a reason for the lack of detail and it was because Harry's emotions would not let him add detail.
Harry's not telling the story, Rowling is. The POV is third person limited, not first person. If Rowling wants us to see it we will, regardless of how Harry is feeling at the time.

[yxs]

That's why I really don't like how Hermione is often misinterpretted as being a goddess of sorts by some shippers. She's a great girl, but she's not perfect. She has faults and imperfections that make her believable and, IMO, lovable to many readers.



Goddess ... Like some fanfictions have her looking, being like a babe or even kind of slutty? lol... I don't really know, never read any fanfictions, but I've heard how people change these characters in there.

I didn't have in mind to figure out what Hermione as a person might still be hiding that's not written... no, I mean, figuring out her feelings for Ron or Harry, clues put in the story that could show who she loves.

I don't think we should assume anything that's not written in there... like, hm, some Herons do, by saying that Ron and Hermione spend a lot of time together while Harry is not there and we don't "see it"... and then something might be going on between them.
Or that Fred and George needed to drug Hermione... lol

[Heatherhobbit]

And I don't think you can use this situation to decide if Harry has a romantic interest in Hermione. Obviously, if one of your friends appeared to be dead you would be distraught regardless of romantic feelings for them. Just because you don't have "feelings" for them doesn't mean your not going to be filled with grief when they appear dead.
I am simply making a comparison. Harry is, of course, upset over both situations. The difference is how Rowling wrote them. She gave the love interest's (Ginny) scene more emotion than the platonic friend's(Hermione).





Eek! I'm starting to sound like a H/G shipper!!

[Moonstruck]

Compare the number of emotional descriptive words in the two scenes. Ginny's has more. I bolded them in my previous post.

There's an old saying that says quaity over quanty. Meaning that just because there are more doesn't mean it is better. ;)



His guilt wasn't Hermione-specific. He felt guilty about a lot of things that night. If Rowling intended for Hermione to be his love interest, she would have given this scene a bit more attention.

Not nessasary.

Harry's not telling the story, Rowling is. The POV is third person limited, not first person. If Rowling wants us to see it we will, regardless of how Harry is feeling at the time.

If that is the case, then all of Ginny's 'poetic descriptions' are not Harry's thoughts, just JK describing the scene. It's either everything is Harry's thoughts or JK's narration. You can't have both.

Edit: forgot you were not a H/G shipper. Sorry. :blush:

[Heatherhobbit]

Goddess ... Like some fanfictions have her looking, being like a babe or even kind of slutty? lol... I don't really know, never read any fanfictions, but I've heard how people change these characters in there.
Stay away from fan fiction. Most of it will rot your brain.

I didn't have in mind to figure out what Hermione as a person might still be hiding that's not written... no, I mean, figuring out her feelings for Ron or Harry, clues put in the story that could show who she loves.

I don't think we should assume anything that's not written in there... like, hm, some Herons do, by saying that Ron and Hermione spend a lot of time together while Harry is not there and we don't "see it"... and then something might be going on between them.
Or that Fred and George needed to drug Hermione... lolHeronians don't have to assume that Ron and Hermione spend a lot of off page time together. It's canon. There are many times when Harry walks in on them talking or studying together. They are together when Harry meets up with them at the beginning of POA and GOF, and she stayed with his family at the beginning of OOTP. They are also together when Harry leaves them at the end of each book. He sees them whispering together, Ron tells Hermione Harry's secrets, they are prefects together, and the are together when Harry is at Quidditch practice and his games in the the first 3 books. They went to Hogsmeade together in POA, and they spent time together when Harry had lessons with Snape. We don't need to assume they spend time together without Harry. It's canon.

[delemtri]

There's an old saying that says quaity over quanty. Meaning that just because there are more doesn't mean it is better. ;)

So in what ways are the words describing Hermione better than those describing Ginny?

[Melcb98]

Obviosly Harry doesn't find Hermione ugly, because it's hard to be friends with someone you find ugly.

:huh:

People don't really base their friendship on people's looks- or they shouldn't. Thats just superficial. Friendships are created through many different ways, and looks should not be a factor.

[Heatherhobbit]

There's an old saying that says quaity over quanty. Meaning that just because there are more doesn't mean it is better. ;)
Well, I interpret it differently than you. I believe that Ginny's not only had the quantity but the quality, as well.








If that is the case, then all of Ginny's 'poetic descriptions' are not Harry's thoughts, just JK describing the scene. It's either everything is Harry's thoughts or JK's narration. You can't have both.
It depends. Some things are described through Harry's eyes, while others are shown from a bird's eye view. That's the lovely thing about third person limited point of view; you can have both.

Where's our English majors when you need them?

Edit: forgot you were not a H/G shipper. Sorry. :blush:
That's okay. I am always reminding people I'm not a Chocolatier. I'm used to it.

[delemtri]

It depends. Some things are described through Harry's eyes, while others are shown from a bird's eye view. That's the lovely thing about third person limited point of view; you can have both.

I think you actually have both to some extent *at the same time* - that is, it's JKR writing not necessarily Harry's thoughts, but things he notices without thinking them into words.

[Moonstruck]

So in what ways are the words describing Hermione better than those describing Ginny?

We see Harry paniking and losing sense. He forgets to do basic things (check her pulse?). With Ginny, he recognizes she's still alive.

Well, I interpret it differently than you. I believe that Ginny's not only had the quantity but the quality, as well.

Well, you said compare how many emotions Ginny has over Hermione. ;)

It depends. Some things are described through Harry's eyes, while others are shown from a bird's eye view. That's the lovely thing about third person limited point of view; you can have both.

Some of the H/G shippers won't agree with you because I've tried arguing something like this before.

Where's our English majors when you need them?

No clue. :p

That's okay. I am always reminding people I'm not a Chocalatier. I'm used to it.

Maybe you need to put "I'm not a Chocalatier" in your sig. For some reason, I see you as a Chocaltier. Don't know why. You look like one to me. :shrug:

[yxs]

The real question mark is ROWLING and how she is writing Hermione. It's basic literary convention. There are certain "rules" in literature. Rowling describes Hermione as having bushy hair, buck teeth, and a nagging voice. She has attached many negative adjectives and adverbs to Hermione's dialogue. She describes her as "not ugly" and only pretty when she doesn't look like Hermione at all. In all the books I've ever read, a protagonist's love interest has never been described this way. Love interests of the protagonists tend to have more colorful descriptions.

Hm... yeah... but I tend to think we shouldn't really go by "rules" that we think are rules in here... based on other literature we've read.
I don't really want to get into that descriptions thing... cause for me this is just something too vague... Ginny doesn't have to be the love interest because she's had colorful descriptions... Many of Rowling's characters have that.
Rowling is writing Hermione the way she is, because this is the way she is.
She HAS bushy hair.
Just because it's through Harry's point of view, doesn't mean he does not like or will not start to like the "bushy hair" later on.
We can also ask "Why does Ron like that not so good looking bushy haired girl?"

Well, lol... I sound like a Harmonian again...

But really, this is something that doesn't show that much for me...
Basically, a writer has her characters and has to describe them like she sees them for herself. So that the reader would know.

For me at least, an emotional connection the writer wants her readers to have with the main hero's LI is more important.
This is how we KNOW the character who falls for our hero and who the hero loves. We can be emotionally attached to this relationship, believe it.
That makes a good story.
Why else Ron/Hermione is so popular?
Two very important characters in this story, who we can follow almost all the time. Who we are grown so attached to.
Of course they're more exciting together than Fleur/Bill in the background (hm, no offence Fleur/Bill shippers).

[AmmoniaAlert]

You find the possitbity of Harry blaming himself for Hermione's death and unable to look at her uninspiring? I felt Harry's sorrow at Hermione's death.

I'm not the one you asked, but I always felt a little disappointed that Harry thought about it being his fault more than how terrible it would be to lose Hermione.
Almost as if he would have been less unhappy if it hadn't been *his* fault.
Why not just have him think: Don't let her be dead! without tacking on the "Because it would be my fault"

[yxs]

Harry's not telling the story, Rowling is. The POV is third person limited, not first person. If Rowling wants us to see it we will, regardless of how Harry is feeling at the time.

Well, that's what I mean really... if Rowling wants us to see Hermione as someone who has bushy hair, we will. What Harry feels about her does not matter here.

[Moonstruck]

I'm not the one you asked, but I always felt a little disappointed that Harry thought about it being his fault more than how terrible it would be to lose Hermione.
Almost as if he would have been less unhappy if it hadn't been *his* fault.
Why not just have him think: Don't let her be dead! without tacking on the "Because it would be my fault"

He thought it was his fault that Sirius died. Were you disappointed Harry thought that?

[yxs]

Heronians don't have to assume that Ron and Hermione spend a lot of off page time together. It's canon. There are many times when Harry walks in on them talking or studying together. They are together when Harry meets up with them at the beginning of POA and GOF, and she stayed with his family at the beginning of OOTP. They are also together when Harry leaves them at the end of each book. He sees them whispering together, Ron tells Hermione Harry's secrets, they are prefects together, and the are together when Harry is at Quidditch practice and his games in the the first 3 books. They went to Hogsmeade together in POA, and they spent time together when Harry had lessons with Snape. We don't need to assume they spend time together without Harry. It's canon.


But I meant we shouldn't assume there is SOMETHING GOING ON while we've caught them together. That's what Herons do.
I am really surprised when I read posts like "But maybe Ron and Hermione are already a couple but we just don't know!"

[JBaker]

You are missing my point. Harry's reaction to Ron and Ginny's "deaths" was written with more emotion that his reaction to Hermione's.


This I had to counter. Hermione's death had a greater impact on Harry then Ron and Ginny's potential death (with more emotion as you put it). Harry freezes up, and it falls to Neville to make Harry realise that she is still alive. What is most telling though is that Harry becames lightheaded with relief (whereas with Ginny's, it was simply relief, glorious relief).


He is unable to look at Hermione because he is feeling guilt. Other than that you don't get much description about his emotions from Rowling in that scene. Witnessing a potential love interest's death should be much more emotional than some general guilt.


Again I disagree;

A whine of panic inside his head was preventing him thinking properly:he had one hand on Hermione's shoulder, which was still warm, yet he did not dare look at her properly. Don't let her be dea, don't let her be dead, it's my fault if she's dead...
...
'Hermione,' Harry said at once, shaking her as the baby-headed Death Eater blundered out of sight again. 'Hermione, wake up...'
...
Neville groped for Hermione's wrist.
'Dat's a pulse, Harry, I'd sure id is.'
Such a powerful wave of relief swept through Harry that for a moment, he felt light-headed.
(699,700 Beyond the Veil)


"Ginny!" Harry muttered, sprinting to her and dropping to his knees.
Ginny — don't be dead — please don't be dead —" He flung his wand aside,
grabbed Ginny's shoulders, and turned her over. Her face was white as
marble, and as cold, yet her eyes were closed, so she wasn't Petrified. But
then she must be—"
Ginny, please wake up," Harry muttered desperately, shaking her. Ginny's
head lolled hopelessly from side to side.

The scene is described in detail. Hermione's scene has far less detail considering her importance in his life.


And yet, what is Harry's reaction when he finds out that she is alive? Is he light-headed from it?


A whine of panic inside his head was preventing him thinking properly: he had
one hand on Hermione's shoulder, which was still warm, yet did not dare look at
her properly. Don't let her be dead, don't let her be dead, it's my fault if she's
dead…
He wasn't desperate. He wasn't dropping to his knees and flinging his wand aside. His reaction to Hermione's "death" is just not written as nicely as Ginny's "death". I believe that was deliberate.

He wasn't thinking, "Oh, you can't be dead, Hermione! I need you badly." He was thinking "It's my fault." Not sorrow or a sense of loss, just guilt. While this reaction is appropriate for a platonic relationship, it is not appropriate for a future love interest.


I disagree. He is feeling guilty for leading them into a trap. The difference is the feeling of relief when they are both alive.

[Hagrid_Is_A_Oaf]

People don't really base their friendship on people's looks- or they shouldn't. Thats just superficial. Friendships are created through many different ways, and looks should not be a factor.

That came off really shallow didn't it.

What I meant was that, when you're friends with someone you don't find them ugly even if a majority of people would find them unattractive.

Ugghh....

This is hard to put into words.

Ok, lets just say someone is ugly; Common fact that they're unattractive. But because they're your friend, you don't find them ugly.

Whatever. Hope this made it a little clearer. I didn't mean to make it sound like people base friendships on looks.

[phantomwitch]

just had to say something....
hermione's near-death experience is important because it leads up to why harry made a mistake in coming to the DoM. of course he's going to feel guilty! however, harry became so panicky that he couldnt think straight...this says that he has inner turmoil. just my interpretation, but thought it would be fine to say it anyway. ;)

[AmmoniaAlert]

He thought it was his fault that Sirius died. Were you disappointed Harry thought that?

I was disappointed that Harry thought this right when Hermione had fallen.
It wouldn't have bothered me if he had thought about this later, after the fight was over and his friends were recovering in the hospital.

But by then he didn't think of them and their injuries at all, because of Sirius.
When he dies, Harry does not immediately think of it being his fault.
He is much more concerned with his loss.

[yxs]

But, finally... Rowling has said this, so...




JEREMY PAXMAN: So there will be some pairing up will there in this book?

JK ROWLING: Well in the fullness of time.

JEREMY PAXMAN: Unlikely pairings? Not Hermione and Draco Malfoy or anything like that?

JK ROWLING: I don't really want to say as it will ruin all the fan sites. They have such fun with their theories ... and it is fun, it is fun. And some of them even get quite close. No-one has ever - I have gone and looked at some of it and no-one's ever ... There is one thing that if anyone guessed I would be really annoyed as it is kind of the heart of it all. And it kind of explains everything and no-one's quite got there but a couple of people have skirted it. So you know, I would be pretty miffed after thirteen or fourteen years of writing the books if someone just came along and said I think this will happen in book seven. Because it is too late, I couldn't divert now, everything has been building up to it, and I've laid all my clues.



It doesn't really matter what we think in here...
obviously, according to this (and it's an answer to the "ship-questions", as we can see). And she also says pairings will happen "in the fullness of time"

So we know... that some pairing up WILL happen finally... but not one of us has quite got it yet... only a few people have skirted it. And there's something there that's the "heart of it all"... and that she can't go back anymore, she has laid all her clues...

Hmm, that's all very interesting... I wonder what the "heart of it all" might be? Something to do wit Harry? I'm guessing...

Well, it shows that we can debate, but we don't really end up knowing anything

I'll stay like this



This is her most telling quote of all her quotes

[jodiez]

That came off really shallow didn't it.

What I meant was that, when you're friends with someone you don't find them ugly even if a majority of people would find them unattractive.

Ugghh....

This is hard to put into words.

Ok, lets just say someone is ugly; Common fact that they're unattractive. But because they're your friend, you don't find them ugly.

Whatever. Hope this made it a little clearer. I didn't mean to make it sound like people base friendships on looks.

I get what you mean. When you are friends with someone, you don't really view them as being attractive or not attractive, you tend to over look it, and you may not see in someone what others see.
I think that if Harry does end up with Hermione, he wouldn't care about her looks, but it is only her hair that is bushy; that does not make her ugly. In the GoF and the ball, she was descibed as a 'pretty girl', so I don't think she is meant to be ugly.
Besides, I think Ron and Hermione will end up together, that is if Ron will ever grow up, lol. There are big hints especially in the 4th and 5th books, with Ron and Hermione fighting all the time, and Ron jealous of her going to the ball with Krum, and Ron asking harry in no. 5 what Hermione saw in Krum. With that going on, I dont' think that Hermione and Harry will get together.
And I also agree that Ron and Hermione are going out but are hiding it; it wouldn't be logical.
Plus, I personally don't think that there is much to look into in the parts when Harry thought Hermione might be dead, or Ginny too. People don't think right in situations like that, and I think that is JK's intention. Just because you have more of a reaction to someones death more than anothers, it does not mean you were more affected. Plus, Hermione was one of Harry's best friends, and she came to the ministry because of him, so he would feel guilty and upset.

[phantomwitch]

off for the night, its 1:26 AM here, -,- <- yawning face ;). happy shipping to all!

[FlyingPhoenix]

The entire book is Harry's feeilngs. We're inside his brain!

I don't know which Harry Potter Books you read but in my books I don't read it in a first Person description. What I find is a limited 3rd person description means the author looks then and when in Harry's mind but not always, we even leave the story from his POV once or twice. What JKR does is to focus this 3rd POV at Harry so we don't read Ron's mind but still we don't read always Harry's feelings and we aren't in his brain.

The girls are directly compared here. Hermione's description is rather negative -- the very bushy hair and rather large teeth again -- while Ginny's is strictly neutral -- small and red-haired. Our best guess from this would be that neither girl is Harry's future love interest, but Ginny would have the edge over Hermione, especially when you take into account her blush.

It isn't a negative description its a objective description its you who interpret it negatively.

Ginny's "low, soothing voice" is compared to Hermione speaking "loftily." Of course we know why Hermione is angry at Ron and Ginny isn't (because Hermione fancies Ron ), but the voice comparison is flattering to Ginny.

How is that a compare able? :huh:

[Corbin Dallas]

How is that a compare able? :huh:

Ginny is comforting Ron, thus soothing, Hermione in her own way and for her own reasons is mocking Ron, that's not soothing, the comparison is mocking to soothing, not to mention all the times we've heard Harry describe Hermione's voice as shrilly, the only association Harry has given Shrilly to Ginny was a singing get well card she gave him in his third year, usually coolly or brightly is associated with Ginny...
CD
PS:
Just had this thought, Hermione has blushed about Krum, she has blushed about Lockhart, she even blushed about Ron, has Hermione ever blushed about Harry?

[xray]

Harry/Ginny -- I think Harry will end up with Ginny, but I don't argue about it too much because 1, there's not that much evidence (especially compared to R/Hr) and 2, the pairing hasn't really caught at my imagination yet (again, compared to R/Hr ;)). But of the four main reasons I think H/G will happen, one of them is Ginny's physical descriptions (the other three reasons are literary structure and foreshadowing, Ginny's associations with romance and family, and Ginny's character descriptions).Hi Angua,

There's much more telling evidence of Harry & Ginny through Rowling herself. But before I touch on that, one piece of evidence I find most illuminating is the one we don't see, that being the disappearance of Ginny in PoA and GoF. It seems as if Rowling is intentionally keeping Ginny away from Harry to prevent a premature relationship from developing, i.e. one of strictly friendship (as has developed between Harry and Hermione). While keeping the interaction between Harry and Ginny as always positive with positive descriptors, Ginnys disappearances in those two books are quite suspicious including her reappearance in GoF just before the ball. In PoA we see her board the train and have the worst reaction to the dementors (after Harry) then she virtually disappears from the book. In GoF we see her board the train then disappears up until it's time for Harry and Ron to select dates for the ball. We get to see her reaction at missing a golden opportunity to be Harry's date to the Yule Ball and her loyalty to her word: she didn't reveal Hermione's date and didn't break her date with Neville. Then she disappears from the remainder of the book. Her absence is too conspicuous, IMO.

Looking at Rowling's interviews, the one that is most telling is the Time Pacific article, Harry is an Old Soul (http://www.time.com/time/pacific/magazine/20001225/poy_rowling_insert.html). What is striking about this interview is that it's a discussion strictly of the trio. Rowling talks about Harry, Ron, & Hermione's characters and failings but when she gets to Harry she brings up Ginny, pointing out that it was a failing of Harry not to notice Ginny.
And what about Ginny [Ron's younger sister]? Poor Ginny, languishing in love for Harry, and he's merrily asking out other girls right under her nose! But that's just a boy thing. Jo included this information without being asked about Ginny. Incidentally, Jo mentions Poor Ginny again in the Comic Relief online chat (http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2001/0301-comicrelief-staff.htm):
Question: Will Harry ever notice the long-suffering Ginny Weasley?

JK Rowling: You'll see... poor Ginny, eh?.

Oh, it's interesting to note that in this particular chat, someone asked when Ron's birthday is and, in the same sentence, she offered Hermione's birthday (without being prompted for it).
Question: - When is Ron's Birthday?

Jo Rowling: First of March, in case you're thinking of sending him a card and Hermione is the nineteenth of September. Interesting. She knows what's going to happen with all of her characters so perhaps she already associates them as couples.

Six main reasons now? [grin]

My only question is which will happen first, H/G or R/Hr. :)

xray

ETA: Another interesting tidbit is her wording: "he's merrily asking out other girls right under her nose"
Ginny caught the snitch right out from under Cho's nose to win the Quidditch match. It looks like another comparison of Ginny but this time to Cho. Ginny one-uped her, but that's just a girl thing.

[levi_OH_sa]

Oh dear. I wrote that essay, and I know what I was trying to say. I was NOT trying to argue that Harry detests Hermione -- far, far from it! I can't help but wonder, if you can misread my intentions so badly, you might misread Rowling's as well.

Funny – I read the same essay, (awesome job btw :tu: ), and I did not think you were trying to say that either. Misreading JKR: yes and, perhaps not reading the same stories all together. (Well, at least it sometimes seems that way;).) Love the Ginny/Harry perspective too. I know you didn’t get into it as much as you would like but I also believe it will happen and you illustrated great comparisons of the two girls.

I am amazed again and again when I think at Rowling saying that she can't believe we haven't figured out who Hermione loves... or that she's given enough clues...

because it sure is hard to see for me...

Not me.

Ron's crush might be obvious, but there's nothing else obvious in there...

I can find a few clues that show Hermione might like him back... yet, a find a lot of clues that hint Hermione's stronger feelings for Harry...

“Lots of clues (Hr->H)” – such as……?

What does she (Rowling) mean by saying that we should have figured Hermione out by now if SHE is the hardest one to figure out?!?

Oh... that woman! lol

Did you mean JKR is the hardest to figure out or Hermione? (Wasn’t sure to which “she” you were referring).

Yep, that sounds like his first experience with sexual attraction to me. It's kind of funny that with all the hugs and physical contact with Hermione, she's not once affected him in the same way. Hmmm...that must mean they're very platonic friends.

And note: not just platonic but VERY!….I think you hit the nail on the head (no pun intended:blush:) – that is exactly one of the problems I see with the Harmonian’s view that Harry will get together with Hermione because he cares so much for her and she is always there for him…. Well, so is Ron but that doesn’t mean he and Harry will get together and we since we haven’t seen any sexual stirrings for either one of the friends for whom Harry cares and loves deeply, then that IMO, seems to be a very clear and “obvious” sign/clue that we should have seen by now!

[Polychrome]

My only question is which will happen first, H/G or R/Hr. :)

I'm betting Ron and Hermione first. Just a gut feeling. I expect them to be a catalyst for Harry to rediscover an interest in romance. People often note that if Ron and Hermione pair up, Harry may feel lonely as his two best buddies will not be devoting quite as much time to him. Now that he's just started to expand his group of friends, though, he may not be depending as much on Ron and Hermione anywho. ( And if others are pairing up, he just may well start wondering why he doesn't have a girl. :eyebrows: )

[Shadowdancer]

JEREMY PAXMAN: So there will be some pairing up will there in this book?

JK ROWLING: Well in the fullness of time.

JEREMY PAXMAN: Unlikely pairings? Not Hermione and Draco Malfoy or anything like that?

JK ROWLING: I don't really want to say as it will ruin all the fan sites. They have such fun with their theories ... and it is fun, it is fun. And some of them even get quite close. No-one has ever - I have gone and looked at some of it and no-one's ever ... There is one thing that if anyone guessed I would be really annoyed as it is kind of the heart of it all. And it kind of explains everything and no-one's quite got there but a couple of people have skirted it. So you know, I would be pretty miffed after thirteen or fourteen years of writing the books if someone just came along and said I think this will happen in book seven. Because it is too late, I couldn't divert now, everything has been building up to it, and I've laid all my clues.



It doesn't really matter what we think in here...
obviously, according to this (and it's an answer to the "ship-questions", as we can see).

However, there is a reasonable argument that in answering this question she diverted from ship theories to theories in general, thereby meaning that nobody had yet guessed the end of the books, not the final ships. And notice she says "one thing," so she can't be referring to all our nutty theories.

[xray]

I'm betting Ron and Hermione first. Just a gut feeling. I expect them to be a catalyst for Harry to rediscover an interest in romance. I'm hoping Harry will start to fall for Ginny well before Ron & Hermione start to date. Actually I'd like to see Harry & Ginny dating be the catalyst for Ron to ask Hermione out :p

Actually I have a gut feeling that Harry will tell Ginny about the prophecy before anyone else. Consider this possible chain of events: Harry remembers the pain he felt when possessed by Voldemort. Harry remembers Ginny being possessed by Riddle. Harry wonders if Ginny felt the same kind of pain and eventually sits down with Ginny (privately) to ask her about her experience with Riddle. Eventually Ginny queries Harry then presses (as in the Chocolate in the Library scene), Harry mentions the prophecy then asks that she not tell Ron or Hermione.

xray

[Corbin Dallas]

I'm hoping Harry will start to fall for Ginny well before Ron & Hermione start to date. Actually I'd like to see Harry & Ginny dating be the catalyst for Ron to ask Hermione out :p

Actually I have a gut feeling that Harry will tell Ginny about the prophecy before anyone else. Consider this possible chain of events: Harry remembers the pain he felt when possessed by Voldemort. Harry remembers Ginny being possessed by Riddle. Harry wonders if Ginny felt the same kind of pain and eventually sits down with Ginny (privately) to ask her about her experience with Riddle. Eventually Ginny queries Harry then presses (as in the Chocolate in the Library scene), Harry mentions the prophecy then asks that she not tell Ron or Hermione.

xray
Yeah due to a clue in Order I always thought Hermione and Ron start dating in their seventh year, Harry and Ginny, I hope get together by the end of HBP, oh and xray, i love the Siggy but for some reason it gives me the willies, can you account for him in 1963 ?
CD

[Shadowdancer]

I'm hoping Harry will start to fall for Ginny well before Ron & Hermione start to date. Actually I'd like to see Harry & Ginny dating be the catalyst for Ron to ask Hermione out.

Yeah, I would love to see Ron get kicked into action by his little sis and his best mate. But Ron's dense enough sometimes I could see it. Somehow though, I really don't think JKR will show us anything serious until book 7.

oh and xray, i love the Siggy but for some reason it gives me the willies, can you account for him in 1963 ?

LOL And how old would that make that kitten? 40? Anyway, kittens have bad aim. It's puppies you need to watch out for. [/total, pointless spam] ;)

[Polychrome]

Actually I have a gut feeling that Harry will tell Ginny about the prophecy before anyone else. Consider this possible chain of events: Harry remembers the pain he felt when possessed by Voldemort. Harry remembers Ginny being possessed by Riddle. Harry wonders if Ginny felt the same kind of pain and eventually sits down with Ginny (privately) to ask her about her experience with Riddle. Eventually Ginny queries Harry then presses (as in the Chocolate in the Library scene), Harry mentions the prophecy then asks that she not tell Ron or Hermione.

Oh, I definitely think Ginny will be the first to hear it. What I think is interesting is when JKR said that Harry would eventually tell his friends the prophecy, she said he would tell "his nearest and dearest" when he was ready.

Now am I the only one suspecting that "nearest" may be Ron and Hermione, and "dearest" may be the future love interest?

[Corbin Dallas]

Oh, I definitely think Ginny will be the first to hear it. What I think is interesting is when JKR said that Harry would eventually tell his friends the prophecy, she said he would tell "his nearest and dearest" when he was ready.

Now am I the only one suspecting that "nearest" may be Ron and Hermione, and "dearest" may be the future love interest?
the thing is, how long will it take Harry to come to terms with the prophecy, cause that's when Jo said Harry will tell his nearest and dearest. Will Neville be amoung those? Does Neville have a right to know? HBP will be interestng in the first half, I get the feeling that broody Harry will still be around, wonder what will bring him out of this funk? Maybe a well placed kiss ;) by someone sensitive enough to know he needs one ;) ...
CD
oh and so there's no confusing me, I really haven't seen that kind of sensitivity from his very platonic friend ;) , but there's that girl who gives him chocolate though :D

[xray]

oh and xray, i love the Siggy but for some reason it gives me the willies, can you account for him in 1963 ?
CDHave no fear; kitty is way too young! However, I think he saw Star Wars because just before I snapped that picture he said, "I have you now, canine!" :D

xray

[Corbin Dallas]

I think he saw Star Wars because just before I snapped that picture he said, "I have you now, canine!" :D

xray
So that's the part where the "Falcon" swoops in and ruins his shot? Talking about using the Barkside of the Force...
:rotfl: :rotfl:
CD
PS
since this is the love thread i better add, does anyone else see some similarities in the Orpheus Myth in regards to Harry and Ginny?
Oh and it occurs to me that if Poly see this we're gonna get some of that Anvil of Doom of hers, wonder if it's still in it's Temple?

[xray]

So that's the part where the "Falcon" swoops in and ruins his shot? Talking about using the Barkside of the Force...
:rotfl: :rotfl:
CDBarkside of the Force?! LOL!! Btw, he's practically immune to falcons. He says they're super easy to prey on. Cats are superior to dogs too, so his wit combined with his high powered rifle makes him invincible :)

xray

[drdementor]

since this is the love thread i better add, does anyone else see some similarities in the Orpheus Myth in regards to Harry and Ginny?


The only similarity I see to that myth is the descent and rescue from the "underworld." And that Orpheus' wife died from snakebite. Otherwise, no, because it doesn't matter whether or not Harry looks back at Ginny and he does succeed in his rescue.

I would think that if Jo wanted to do an 'Orpheus' she'd do that with Sirius, where harry could try getting him out of the veil, but couldn't look back to make sure he followed. That would be pretty cheesy, though, and we know Sirius isn't coming back.

[Polychrome]

You mean this anvil? (http://www.mingtian.org/flash/Poly1.html)

I would think that if Jo wanted to do an 'Orpheus' she'd do that with Sirius, where harry could try getting him out of the veil, but couldn't look back to make sure he followed. That would be pretty cheesy, though, and we know Sirius isn't coming back.

That would be my take on it. I don't really plan to see any Orpheuses in Harry Potter. JKR herself said that when you're writing for children, you have to be a ruthless killer.

There's places where hope is needed, but others where we need acceptance.

[FlyingPhoenix]

Ginny is comforting Ron, thus soothing, Hermione in her own way and for her own reasons is mocking Ron, that's not soothing, the comparison is mocking to soothing, not to mention all the times we've heard Harry describe Hermione's voice as shrilly, the only association Harry has given Shrilly to Ginny was a singing get well card she gave him in his third year, usually coolly or brightly is associated with Ginny...

Soothing and Mocking are two different things. If you like to compare there anything then maybe Hermione's lack of symphatic for Ron. Ah, and Its not always Harry who describe Hermione's voice, its the narator.

:lol: Harry did descirbe Hermione's voice as shrilly? Did you know that Hermione is at least 400% more often in this books as Ginny? And that Hermione is more often in scary, frightening, dangerous situations as Ginny? Its absurd to think that a girl which name is probably 200 times mentioned in this books gets more negative voice description as a girl which is nearly 4000 times mentioned. This isn't compareable, not like that of course.
Ginny was only at DoM in such a situation and there she was half of the time seperated from Harry.

Just had this thought, Hermione has blushed about Krum, she has blushed about Lockhart, she even blushed about Ron, has Hermione ever blushed about Harry?

She does and she blush in case of Hagrid, too.

Oh, it's interesting to note that in this particular chat, someone asked when Ron's birthday is and, in the same sentence, she offered Hermione's birthday (without being prompted for it).

Right, ever thought about that Hermione is Harry's best friend too and that's natural to answer for her too. I seriously doubt this got anything with a R/Hr pairing to do, rather I believe that this Cup for Fansites is H/Hr. Its like saying Snape is in reality Harry's father or such things.

[Corbin Dallas]

Soothing and Mocking are two different things. If you like to compare there anything then maybe Hermione's lack of symphatic for Ron. Ah, and Its not always Harry who describe Hermione's voice, its the narator.
:lol: Harry did descirbe Hermione's voice as shrilly? Did you know that Hermione is at least 400% more often in this books as Ginny? And that Hermione is more often in scary, frightening, dangerous situations as Ginny? Its absurd to think that a girl which name is probably 200 times mentioned in this books gets more negative voice description as a girl which is nearly 4000 times mentioned. This isn't compareable, not like that of course.
Ginny was only at DoM in such a situation and there she was half of the time seperated from Harry.
eerrr i though in third person-limited that mostly narrator type stuff was from the person's subconcious? 'Course I maybe wrong but if i remember the text right Harry speciffically thinks of Hermione's voice as shrilly(Goblet second chapter), when I get home I'll post the text, problem with being at work, grrr...
Why isn't it comparable? Moonstruck even said Quality(Ginny in this case-200 times) is better than Quanity(Hermione-4000 times) ;) and I can't think of one negative description of Ginny's appearence, Hermione is constantly referred to as Bushy Haired and bucktoothed-sorry not that positive, Order even strenthens that point with "... but I don't think you're ugly." Harry said bemusedly I think. I can say with certainty that Harry is being as nice as he can, because he doesn't think Hermione is generally pretty, if he did he would have said so right there and he didn't.
She does and she blush in case of Hagrid, too.
Can you post the text as to when Hermione blushed because of Harry, I don't have my books and I can't remember her doing so, so if you can post the text that would be helpful thanx,
Right, ever thought about that Hermione is Harry's best friend too and that's natural to answer for her too. I seriously doubt this got anything with a R/Hr pairing to do, rather I believe that this Cup for Fansites is H/Hr. Its like saying Snape is in reality Harry's father or such things.
hmmm I think what xray is trying to point out is that like in the text, usually Ron and Hermione are linked together constantly in key moments, or clues if you will, ans Jo does so again here, afterall she wasn't asked about Hermione, why not mention Ginny's birthday, his siter, or Fred and Georges' or Bill' or Charlies' or Arthur's, etc., you know Ron's family, why Hermione? Maybe because we are supposed to link Ron and Hermione together, seems to be a pattern with Jo ;) ...
oh and FP that's CD but the CB radios will always hold a special place in my heart,
xray, don't bet on it ;) ....
CD

[xray]

Right, ever thought about that Hermione is Harry's best friend too and that's natural to answer for her too. I seriously doubt this got anything with a R/Hr pairing to do, rather I believe that this Cup for Fansites is H/Hr. Its like saying Snape is in reality Harry's father or such things.Ahh but you forget! Rowling almost slipped up and said Ron's girlfriend, not Harry's best female friend!
(From the Diane Rehm Show)
I really like Washington because in Washington I've met the highest number of people ever who've said don't kill Hermione whose Ron's, um, who's Harry's best female friend and I have to say most people just don't really care too much about Hermione in the sense that they think she's too clever and she'll get through somehow.
Har har, I have you now!

xray

[JBaker]

eerrr i though in third person-limited that mostly narrator type stuff was from the person's subconcious? 'Course I maybe wrong but if i remember the text right Harry speciffically thinks of Hermione's voice as shrilly(Goblet second chapter), when I get home I'll post the text, problem with being at work, grrr...


Yes but he doesn't make any such comment about her voice in OotP about it being shrilly.


Why isn't it comparable? Moonstruck even said Quality(Ginny in this case-200 times) is better than Quanity(Hermione-4000 times) ;) and I can't think of one negative description of Ginny's appearence, Hermione is constantly referred to as Bushy Haired and bucktoothed-sorry not that positive, Order even strenthens that point with "... but I don't think you're ugly." Harry said bemusedly I think. I can say with certainty that Harry is being as nice as he can, because he doesn't think Hermione is generally pretty, if he did he would have said so right there and he didn't.


So you think that the comment about Ginny looking like the twins was a positive comment from Harry? If I'm not mistaken, I don't recall Harry ever making a positive comment about Ginny's looks at all (the fiery red hair description was used to describe the Weasleys in general).

With regards to Hermione, he did say that she was pretty at the Yule Ball, and he did point out that he didn't think she was ugly in OotP, so he clearly doesn't think negatively of her looks. Really, he was being nice about it? Even though he did think she was pretty at the Yule Ball? I don't think that this is the case at all.



Can you post the text as to when Hermione blushed because of Harry, I don't have my books and I can't remember her doing so, so if you can post the text that would be helpful thanx,


Well she blushes quite often, when she is embarrassed.


hmmm I think what xray is trying to point out is that like in the text, usually Ron and Hermione are linked together constantly in key moments, or clues if you will, ans Jo does so again here, afterall she wasn't asked about Hermione, why not mention Ginny's birthday, his siter, or Fred and Georges' or Bill' or Charlies' or Arthur's, etc., you know Ron's family, why Hermione? Maybe because we are supposed to link Ron and Hermione together, seems to be a pattern with Jo ;) ...
oh and FP that's CD but the CB radios will always hold a special place in my heart,
xray, don't bet on it ;) ....
CD


This last one I have to clearly disagree with. Where was Ron during Sirius's rescue? Where was Ron when Harry and Hermione were going and meeting Grawp?

I do see a pattern whereby, Harry and Hermione continue to go on adventures critical to the story together without Ron.

Perhaps you can point out these key points in the story where Ron and Hermione are linked together? I see Ron supporting Hermione when talking to Harry, but only when he thought the danger of Harry exploding were gone. I see Ron not making any arguments except when Harry turned on him with regards to his saving people thing.

Ahh but you forget! Rowling almost slipped up and said Ron's girlfriend, not Harry's best female friend!
(From the Diane Rhem Show)
I really like Washington because in Washington I've met the highest number of people ever who've said don't kill Hermione whose Ron's, um, who's Harry's best female friend and I have to say most people just don't really care too much about Hermione in the sense that they think she's too clever and she'll get through somehow.
Har har, I have you now!

xray


Funny, she also made a very big and important point about Harry needing Hermione badly. She was irritated by the constant calls for a strong female character, and she pointed out that Hermione was a strong character, that Harry needed her badly.

[xray]

Funny, she also made a very big and important point about Harry needing Hermione badly. She was irritated by the constant calls for a strong female character, and she pointed out that Hermione was a strong character, that Harry needed her badly.Yep, she did. Harry needed her brains badly. That's what she was alluding to.

xray

[JBaker]

Yep, she did. Harry needed her brains badly. That's what she was alluding to.

xray


Or perhaps he needs her, as per what she said. After all, she is the only one hwo hasn't turned their back on him. She's the one who seems to be able to know the dangers to him (I'm curious as to how she would even think that the DOM was a trap).

She is also the one who has helped boost his spirits the best.

[Fury]

Ahh but you forget! Rowling almost slipped up and said Ron's girlfriend, not Harry's best female friend!
(From the Diane Rehm Show)
I really like Washington because in Washington I've met the highest number of people ever who've said don't kill Hermione whose Ron's, um, who's Harry's best female friend and I have to say most people just don't really care too much about Hermione in the sense that they think she's too clever and she'll get through somehow.
Har har, I have you now!

xray

:rotfl: Never saw that before. Haha, that is funny. :rotfl:

[xray]

Or perhaps he needs her, as per what she said. After all, she is the only one hwo hasn't turned their back on him. She's the one who seems to be able to know the dangers to him (I'm curious as to how she would even think that the DOM was a trap).

She is also the one who has helped boost his spirits the best.Ok, this is an example of you H/Hr shippers trying to twist text into your favor. Read again what she said:
She is the most brilliant of the three and they need her. Harry needs her badly.
Harry needs her brilliance. The discussion is about a strong female character. Hermione is strong, i.e. not faint of heart (well she has freaked out a couple of times), not dependant on anyone, but above all, intelligent. We have seen time and time again Hermione's brains to the rescue. And where do you get that she is the one who has helped boost his spirits the best?

xray

[GinnyxHarry]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhh!!! Another Neville/Hermione shipper! *waves at you furiously*

There's evidence for N/H and if this ship happens it will be the ship that has been there since book 1 but flew under the radar. :tu:
Wow, there are actually other N/Hr shippers besides me? XD H/G N/Hr Ron/Cho (shrug) and Draco/Luna for me. No offence, but HHr and DG kinda make me sick, no offense to anyone whom ships them!

[JBaker]

Ok, this is an example of you H/Hr shippers trying to twist text into your favor. Read again what she said:
She is the most brilliant of the three and they need her. Harry needs her badly.
Harry needs her brilliance. The discussion is about a strong female character. Hermione is strong, i.e. not faint of heart (well she has freaked out a couple of times), not dependant on anyone, but above all, intelligent. We have seen time and time again Hermione's brains to the rescue. And where do you get that she is the one who has helped boost his spirits the best?

xray

How is what I'm saying twisting the quote?

Yes she is strong willed and has a strong heart. Yes she is the most brilliant of the three, but as the quote says, Harry needs her badly.

I got the part about her help boosting his spirits from numerous parts in OotP i.e the D.A, Quibbler article, just to name two.

Wow, there are actually other N/Hr shippers besides me? XD H/G N/Hr Ron/Cho (shrug) and Draco/Luna for me. No offence, but HHr and DG kinda make me sick, no offense to anyone whom ships them!

That's alright, I find H/G and R/Hr sickening, but that's just me. To each their own basically.

[FlyingPhoenix]

Har har, I have you now!

The day you got me is the day I read book7 and find myself in neverland again. You know a Potter who turned out to be a Pan.

Ahh but you forget! Rowling almost slipped up and said Ron's girlfriend, not Harry's best female friend!

:lol: And you say we read to much in this, right?

Yep, she did. Harry needed her brains badly. That's what she was alluding to.

You know if Harry needed a brain, he didn't need Hermione for that. There are ways to educate yourself or to read a :gasp: book.

eerrr i though in third person-limited that mostly narrator type stuff was from the person's subconcious? 'Course I maybe wrong but if i remember the text right Harry speciffically thinks of Hermione's voice as shrilly(Goblet second chapter), when I get home I'll post the text, problem with being at work, grrr...

JKR don't use an usual PoV she is swifting like she want says one time we are in 3rd person cut out of Harry's thoughts other times we are in again. As for Harry imagine Hermione's shrill voice, yes he did because of his scar. Sure Harry imagine Hermione rightfully as that girl who freaks out hearing his scar is hurting. Mind you in OotP he think nobody would care for his hurting scar anymore, interesting seems like someone likes that people freak out in worry for him.
This clearly shows and not only that one shows it that Harry wants that Hermione care for him, that her voice sounds shrilly because of him. If he didn't want it he didn't later complain no one cares for his scar anymore, also he didn't feel a great relief that Hermione shows sympathic to him because of his hand. He want and need that from her and not from Ginny or Luna.

Why isn't it comparable? Moonstruck even said Quality(Ginny in this case-200 times) is better than Quanity(Hermione-4000 times) and I can't think of one negative description of Ginny's appearence, Hermione is constantly referred to as Bushy Haired and bucktoothed-sorry not that positive, Order even strenthens that point with "... but I don't think you're ugly." Harry said bemusedly I think. I can say with certainty that Harry is being as nice as he can, because he doesn't think Hermione is generally pretty, if he did he would have said so right there and he didn't.

Haveing a red face like the seting sun and a hair like red as fire don't let me imagine a cute pic rather a biting one because Fire red which is close to orange and red of a sunset whats close to blood red is biting terrible each other.
Like you might have discover by now I'm not Moonstruck, nothing against her though, however my point is that you guys find due 200 times far easier objective description what a subjectiv interpretation can turn into a possitive one and one must take in account Ginny was till now in one of 5 terrible situations and even there she was knocked out. I don't count OotP simple because Ginny is either overshadowed by Hermione or not even in one room.
But Hermione was, well, she was already hunted by a troll, a basilisk, turned in a half cat, stressed in PoA, on time travel, hexed in GoF and much much more but Ginny? Ginny, what happened to her? What had she till now to do with Harry's buisness (a side note being compared to Dobby isn't a compliment either)? Nothing, nothing more as to be one of his problems that is so how can there even exist a description one can interpret negatively? It dosen't make sense.


hmmm I think what xray is trying to point out is that like in the text, usually Ron and Hermione are linked together constantly in key moments, or clues if you will, ans Jo does so again here, afterall she wasn't asked about Hermione, why not mention Ginny's birthday, his siter, or Fred and Georges' or Bill' or Charlies' or Arthur's, etc., you know Ron's family, why Hermione? Maybe because we are supposed to link Ron and Hermione together, seems to be a pattern with Jo

Oy, they are linked to another, this are Harry's two very best friends so why should JKR expect that someone who asks about Harry Potter books that people like to know when some minor characters have their birthday?

[Lord Voldivader]

:lol: And you say we read to much in this, right?

It really sounded like she nearly let something slip, quite obvious to me.


You know if Harry needed a brain, he didn't need Hermione for that. There are ways to educate yourself or to read a :gasp: book.

But still she needed her in book 4 to study...


JKR don't use an usual PoV she is swifting like she want says one time we are in 3rd person cut out of Harry's thoughts other times we are in again. As for Harry imagine Hermione's shrill voice, yes he did because of his scar. Sure Harry imagine Hermione rightfully as that girl who freaks out hearing his scar is hurting. Mind you in OotP he think nobody would care for his hurting scar anymore, interesting seems like someone likes that people freak out in worry for him.
This clearly shows and not only that one shows it that Harry wants that Hermione care for him, that her voice sounds shrilly because of him. If he didn't want it he didn't later complain no one cares for his scar anymore, also he didn't feel a great relief that Hermione shows sympathic to him because of his hand. He want and need that from her and not from Ginny or Luna.

Everyone wants to have symphatic from a friend! And Harry wanted the whole world to feel symphatic for him...
And where does it say he doesn't want it from Ginny or Luna too?

[FlyingPhoenix]

Everyone wants to have symphatic from a friend! And Harry wanted the whole world to feel symphatic for him...

Nope, he wanted Hermione not the whole world.

But still she needed her in book 4 to study...

He practice with her this is entier different. If someone needs a brain then its Ron, just remember that essay which Hermione rewrote nearly completely. However in case of Harry she just point out one error, mind you thats a very nice methaphor how both guys appear to her. Ron where Hermione would like change his character like his essay and Harry who needs only one pointing out.

[JBaker]

It really sounded like she nearly let something slip, quite obvious to me.


Possibly, or possibly not. I've met the highest number of people ever who've said don't kill Hermione, whose Ron's, um What I find fascinating about this is that she isn't the one saying what Hermione is to Ron, it's what is said to her. The second part reveals it who's Harry's best female friend and I have to say most people just don't really care too much about Hermione in the sense that they think she's too clever and she'll get through somehow.

She is saying in this quote that people don't want her to kill off Hermione, whose Ron's (we aren't given what was said from the um) um. When Harry is mentioned, she says that people don't really care for Hermione. What actually concerns me here, and should concern R/Hr shippers as well is that she seems to hint that maybe Hermione won't make it through. I underlined the part that seems to hint at it.

To me, what is being said here is that they don't care for Hermione's character (for what it is) because they assume nothing bad will happen to her because she is simply too smart. And the reason why she likes Washington is because there are a large number of people who are concerned about Hermione.

I know some will say that she seems to support R/Hr because she likes those whom think in terms of Hermione being Ron's um, but if you read why she likes the people in Washington, she likes them because they don't assume that she will automatically make it out safe.



But still she needed her in book 4 to study...


I assume that you mean that Harry needed her in book 4 to study?

[voldemort666]

I just want to state a simple fact.

R/Hr shippers (see Angua's essay for example) tries hard to highlight that H/Hr is an impossible ship simply because Harry do not find Hermione physically attractive so far in the story.

But, please note that JKR herself has given enough clues against this argument in canon. IMHO, that is the importance of the whole Harry/Cho romance thread of the story. What was there from Harry's side in in that relation? physical attraction. And What was lacking there? Understanding and compassion.

So, I think this minor romance thread in the plot alone disqualify all arguments based upon physical attraction being the ultimate love-meter in the HP universe.

No wonder JKR said, she has given enough clues by now.

*waves at all H/Hr shippers here* Don't you worry...even me - Lord Voldemort - is an H/Hr shipper! j/k :)

[IceKat55]

I just want to state a simple fact.

R/Hr shippers (see Angua's essay for example) tries hard to highlight that H/Hr is an impossible ship simply because Harry do not find Hermione physically attractive so far in the story.

But, please note that JKR herself has given enough clues against this argument in canon. IMHO, that is the importance of the whole Harry/Cho romance thread of the story. What was there from Harry's side in in that relation? physical attraction. And What was lacking there? Understanding and compassion.
It's not only that Harry is not physically attracted to Hermione - - it's other things that show they are incompatible.

When Harry gets in 'one of his moods' and goes all CAPS!LOCK, Hermione isn't always able to handle him. He brings her to tears, she steps away from him in apprehension, he had an urge to physically shake her at one point because he was so frustrated with her.

Harry can't deal with the nagging side of her nature. He tends to avoid it, he tries to tune her out, and he has even lied to her in order to avoid a confrontation. He sometimes describes her voice as 'shrill' or 'hissing' or some other rather unpleasant sound - - not to say that he hates that about her, but if they ever did get together, Harry would have to learn to deal with several annoying things about her character that, so far, he seems unwilling to adapt to.

None of these things would be a good base to build a solid, sharing partnership on. They are simply not romantically compatible.

Ron and Hermione, on the other hand, are. They can deal with each other on very even-footing. Rowling didn't choose to write all the characters' interactions that way for no reason. :)

[Melcb98]

Funny, she also made a very big and important point about Harry needing Hermione badly. She was irritated by the constant calls for a strong female character, and she pointed out that Hermione was a strong character, that Harry needed her badly.
Maybe the quote should be put into context:

What irritates me is that I am constantly, increasingly, being asked 'Can we have a strong female character, please?' Like they are ordering a side order of chips. I am thinking 'Isn't Hermione strong enough for you?' She is the most brilliant of the three and they need her. Harry needs her badly. But my hero is a boy and at the age he has been girls simply do not figure that much. Increasingly, they do. But, at 11, I think it would be extremely contrived to throw in a couple of feisty, gorgeous, brilliant-at-maths and great-at-fixing-cars girls. Times Interview (June 2000)

I bolded it. She says that Hermione is the most brilliant of the three. Thats true. Hermione is the smartest. She then says that they need her, meaing Ron and Harry...both of them. Then she says that Harry needs her badly. JKR was emphazing HArry here because these are Harry's books, and yes, Harry does need her brilliance and brains- badly. They have helped him out so far. This isn't a shippy quote, especially since both boys need Hermione's brains.


Oops, sorry- I missed X-Rays *brilliant* responses (hehe!)

[Fury]

It's not only that Harry is not physically attracted to Hermione - - it's other things that show they are incompatible.

When Harry gets in 'one of his moods' and goes all CAPS!LOCK, Hermione isn't always able to handle him. He brings her to tears, she steps away from him in apprehension, he had an urge to physically shake her at one point because he was so frustrated with her.

Harry can't deal with the nagging side of her nature. He tends to avoid it, he tries to tune her out, and he has even lied to her in order to avoid a confrontation. He sometimes describes her voice as 'shrill' or 'hissing' or some other rather unpleasant sound - - not to say that he hates that about her, but if they ever did get together, Harry would have to learn to deal with several annoying things about her character that, so far, he seems unwilling to adapt to.

None of these things would be a good base to build a solid, sharing partnership on. They are simply not romantically compatible.

Ron and Hermione, on the other hand, are. They can deal with each other on very even-footing. Rowling didn't choose to write all the characters' interactions that way for no reason. :)

I agree... Hermione is, dare I say it, too much for Harry.

Ron and Hermione can deal with each other, yes. How else do you think they are still friends even after [Begin Sarcasm] a million and one [End Sarcasm] fights... it just goes well. They can handle each other.

[Krumpet]

Attraction can grow after a not so good impression at first. In literature too, let us remember that it was the main theme of the main novel of Jane's Austin (JKR one favorite writer) Pride and Prejudice.

Mr. Darcy really thought Lizzy "tolerable but not pretty enough to tempt him", and also: "she a beauty? I would as soon call her mother a wit".
Unfortunately his attraction grew despite he didn't think her pretty and caused him to eat his own words....

Okay I was just skimming though yesterday's posts when I found this. Pride and Prejudice is my favorite of Austin's books. I was surprised and pleased to find a Harmony that loves it too, being that I think Hermione/ Ron mirrors Elizabeth/ Mr. Darcy fairly well. :)

I couldn't find "she a beauty? I would as soon call her mother a wit" at least in his initial meeting with Elizabeth, (though admittedly it's been over a year since I last read the book is it later in the book though I can't remember).

But on his (Mr. Darcy's) very next meeting of Elizabeth the books tells us

"But no sooner had he made it clear to himself and his friends that she had hardly a good feature in her face, than he began to find it was rendered uncommonly intelligent by beautiful expression of her dark eyes"

To me a couple of things stand out about that. One, unlike Harry, Darcy quickly learned his mistake in not finding Elizabeth attractive. Harry is going on six years with out that realization. Two, this scene reminds me irresistibly of Ron's realization that Hermione is a "girl".


You find the possitbity of Harry blaming himself for Hermione's death and unable to look at her uninspiring? I felt Harry's sorrow at Hermione's death.

Ah death… One of the things I find interesting about Hermione's death; her death is the first and only "death" of loved one (or at least someone important to him), that Harry acts rationally during. He stays aware and on top of his game. With Ginny he flung his wand away even though he knew there was a Basilisk about. With Ron he failed to vanquish a simple boggart, but instead stands stock still as a parade of dead Weaslies marches on in front of him, and with Sirius he goes a little mad. However her "death" is also the only one that we see the relief of her not being dead spelled out for us. (Though to be fair with Ginny he had to immediately fight a huge snake as soon as he found her; and with Ron I think he was too affected by the visual and the idea to really process it).

Hermione's death reaction is right on pare with all of his others. What I find interesting is that Ron and Hermione are Harry's best friends, Sirius was Harry's father figure, but why include Ginny in Harry's death trend? What does this signify she's going to be to him? We've seen him not follow the trend before with Cedric, why not make Ginny's "death" like that? Why start the trend with a girl that has had an exceptionally small part so far?

[delemtri]

Ah death… One of the things I find interesting about Hermione's death; her death is the first and only "death" of loved one (or at least someone important to him), that Harry acts rationally during. He stays aware and on top of his game. With Ginny he flung his wand away even though he knew there was a Basilisk about. With Ron he failed to vanquish a simple boggart, but instead stands stock still as a parade of dead Weaslies marches on in front of him, and with Sirius he goes a little mad. However her "death" is also the only one that we see the relief of her not being dead spelled out for us. (Though to be fair with Ginny he had to immediately fight a huge snake as soon as he found her; and with Ron I think he was too affected by the visual and the idea to really process it).

Hermione's death reaction is right on pare with all of his others. What I find interesting is that Ron and Hermione are Harry's best friends, Sirius was Harry's father figure, but why include Ginny in Harry's death trend? What does this signify she's going to be to him? We've seen him not follow the trend before with Cedric, why not make Ginny's "death" like that? Why start the trend with a girl that has had an exceptionally small part so far?

Well said.

I sorta hate Austen.

[marauder07]

oh man...i have to say that i was certain that harry and cho were going to get somewhere in their relationship...oh well! but i think that hermione and ron are going to be together. i serioualy want them to get married lol. its so obvious that they have an unspoken love for each other. especially with jealousy and concern for each other. oh man...<33

[Taichi]

Ron/Hermione

Harry/Ginny

that's not just wishful thinking, that's what it's going to be......

it makes sense, Ron and Hermione are moving towards that, and if you can't see it, you're blind....

but Harry/Ginny makes sense too, because Harry longs to be a part of a family.....and what better (or bigger) family to be a part of, than the Weasleys?

[marauder07]

Ron/Hermione

Harry/Ginny

that's not just wishful thinking, that's what it's going to be......

it makes sense, Ron and Hermione are moving towards that, and if you can't see it, you're blind....

but Harry/Ginny makes sense too, because Harry longs to be a part of a family.....and what better (or bigger) family to be a part of, than the Weasleys?

wow...thats a very very VERY good point!!

[Moonstruck]

Ah death… One of the things I find interesting about Hermione's death; her death is the first and only "death" of loved one (or at least someone important to him), that Harry acts rationally during.

So not checking her pulse is rational? Not looking at her (which could very well tell Harry if she's dead or not) is rational?

He stays aware and on top of his game.

I'm not sure if he's aware. Like I said, he doesn't think of checking Hermione's pulse nor is he able to look at her. The book even says he wasn't thinking properly:

A whine of panic inside his head was preventing him thinking properly.

OOTP, page 793

How is not thinking properly on top of his game and aware?

With Ginny he flung his wand away even though he knew there was a Basilisk about. With Ron he failed to vanquish a simple boggart, but instead stands stock still as a parade of dead Weaslies marches on in front of him, and with Sirius he goes a little mad.

With Ginny, I'll give you the wand, but there's nothing in the text that says Harry lost proper thought (like with Hermione). He wasn't in a panic with Ginny.

With Ron, he realizes Ron isn't dead. And the body transforms (before his very eyes) into Bill's, clearly showing Mrs. Weasley is facing a boggart. Harry tries to get Mrs. Weasley out of there.

"Mrs. Weasley, just get out of here!" shouted Harry, staring down at his own dead body on the floor. "Let someone else - "

OOTP, page 176

With this, we find that Harry did keep his thoughts together.

Sirius was the closest thing he had to family. How would you feel if someone you were close to in your family died suddenly? You would feel exactly like Harry (without someone to blame on). In a way, we see Harry lose all process of thought with Sirius (like he did with Hermione). Guilt in Hermione's is replaced with anger at Bellatrix in Sirius.

However her "death" is also the only one that we see the relief of her not being dead spelled out for us. (Though to be fair with Ginny he had to immediately fight a huge snake as soon as he found her; and with Ron I think he was too affected by the visual and the idea to really process it).

Actually, it is spelled out with Hermione

Such a powerful wave of relief swept through Harry that for a moment he felt light-headed.

OOTP, page 793

Unless you are talking about something else?

So Harry was too affected by Ron turning to Bill to process anything?

Hermione's death reaction is right on pare with all of his others. What I find interesting is that Ron and Hermione are Harry's best friends, Sirius was Harry's father figure, but why include Ginny in Harry's death trend? What does this signify she's going to be to him? We've seen him not follow the trend before with Cedric, why not make Ginny's "death" like that? Why start the trend with a girl that has had an exceptionally small part so far?

Maybe because Harry has a 'saving people thing?' And it bothers him to see anyone lying dead?

[Krumpet]

Well said.

Thank you. :)

I sorta hate Austen.
Sacrilege!!!! :evil:

Austen is in my top three of favorite authors, I think that her books and writing style are brilliant. I do understand though that she might not be everybody's cups of tea though. Still I highly, highly, highly recommend reading Pride and Prejudice and Emma; they are masterpieces of literature.

[delemtri]

Sacrilege!!!! :evil:

Austen is in my top three of favorite authors, I think that her books and writing style are brilliant. I do understand though that she might not be everybody's cups of tea though. Still I highly, highly, highly recommend reading Pride and Prejudice and Emma; they are masterpieces of literature.

A bunch of people sitting around and talking and dancing and then falling in love with each other isn't really my cup of tea, no. I prefer adventures and magic and something *wild* about romance - this is part of why I favor Ginny so strongly - it just fits with what love is *to me,* opposites attract be damned.

[Fury]

Ron/Hermione

Harry/Ginny

that's not just wishful thinking, that's what it's going to be......

it makes sense, Ron and Hermione are moving towards that, and if you can't see it, you're blind....

but Harry/Ginny makes sense too, because Harry longs to be a part of a family.....and what better (or bigger) family to be a part of, than the Weasleys?

I agree... good post.

Harry does feel like he needs to be part of a loving family. To him, the Weasleys are the best family in the world.

So, if he gets married to Ginny, he will now be related to the Weasleys.

And if Ron and Hermione get married... it would keep the trio together... right?

[IceKat55]

Maybe because Harry has a 'saving people thing?' And it bothers him to see anyone lying dead?
To include his best friend, Hermione. Which no more means he's 'in love' with her than it means he's 'in love' with Sirius. :)

[Krumpet]

So not checking her pulse is rational? Not looking at her (which could very well tell Harry if she's dead or not) is rational?
He was facing a DE at the time. So yes not looking at her was a very rational thing to do. As for not checking her pulse. If you are not trained in first aid, which Harry isn't, that is not the first thing you would think of doing. When has Harry ever shown that he knows how to evaluate a body? Neville's parent's are in hospital, and it can be assumed that he has spent much more time around Healer's and those in the medical professor.



I'm not sure if he's aware. Like I said, he doesn't think of checking Hermione's pulse nor is he able to look at her. The book even says he wasn't thinking properly:

A whine of panic inside his head was preventing him thinking properly.

OOTP, page 793

How is not thinking properly on top of his game and aware?

Okay I'm going repost an essay I wrote on this a while ago though I posted it during a Harmony light period in the LT. Enjoy and feel free to shred.:) (I was kind of disappointed it never got challenged before). REPOST....


Disclaimer: On all points assume an IMHO (in my humble opinion) is added. Happy reading.

(All cannon is in pink anything in […] is something that I have added to clarify something)

THE PSUEDO DEATH OF HERMIONE.

The Harry Potter books are a little bit like the paintings by Georges Seurat, they are composed of many beautiful dots or parts that paint an astounding bigger picture. If you look at one of Mr. Seurat's most famous paintings, "A Sunday Afternoon on the Island of La Grande Jatte," you see a picture that is composed entirely of dots, tiny little pieces that make up masterpiece. Though it is tempting to look very closely at each section of the painting, it is easy to lose the bigger picture in doing so. The fake death of Hermione and Harry's reaction to it is a beautifully painted section of Harry's story. I will attempt in this portion of my essay to show that Harry's reaction to Hermione's death is not indicative of deeper, romantic feelings, but instead follows a reaction trend similar to what occurs during the "deaths" of those important to him.

I have seen it argued that Harry's reaction to Hermione's death was too strong to be simply a reaction to a "friend" dying. That Harry's extroverted emotions and his inability to think rationally or to quote canon, "properly", revealed his secret romantic love for Hermione bubbling up and out when he thought she was dead.

However if we take a step back from that section of the book and look at the entire painting that is the Harry Potter tapestry, we see that Harry's reaction to Hermione bogus death is in fact completely consistent with his reactions to dealing with death up until that point.

Okay, lets go back, way back to Chamber of Secrets to be exact. To the first time that Harry has to deal with the "death" of someone important to him, Ginny. I realize that at this point Harry has very rarely talked to Ginny, and that they themselves are not fast friends. However Ginny is still extremely important to Harry at this point because she is a Weasley, and because he can foresee the devastation that her death would bring upon the Weasleys.

Chamber of Secrets US Paperback Page 293, Chapter 16 "The Chamber of Secrets"
"Who is it?" said Madam Hooch, who had sunk, weak kneed, into a chair. "Which student?"
"Ginny Weasely," said Professor McGonagall.
Harry Felt Ron slide silently down onto the wardrobe floor beside him.

…
Page 295 (same chapter)
It was probably the worst day of Harry's entire life. He, Ron, Fred, and George sat together in a corner of the Gryffindor common room, unable to say anything to each other…

"…She found something out about the Chamber of Secrets. That must be why she was—" Ron rubbed his eyes frantically. "I mean, she was a pure-blood. There can't be any other reason."

After viewing these passages there is little doubt that Ginny is important to Harry. Harry's best friend is devastated, as are Fred, George and I sure the rest of the Weasleys. Because of their intense sorrow, Harry describes that afternoon as the "probably the worst in his life". He takes all of this to heart. So Ginny by proxy of being so important to those around him, becomes very important to Harry, himself, as well.

Now lets look at Harry reaction when he thinks Ginny is dead…

Chamber of Secrets US paperback page 307 Chapter 17 "The Heir of Slytherin"

"Ginny!" Harry muttered, sprinting to her and dropping to his knees." Ginny— don't be dead — please don't be dead—"He flung his wand aside, grabbed Ginny's shoulders, and turned her over….

Make a mental note that he pleads with her "don't be dead", and tells her to "wake up" that will be important later in this essay.

Aside from telling her to "don't be dead" he also acts very, very irrationally here, and is obviously not thinking properly. He flings his wand aside even after he's seen with his own eyes the skin of the Basilisk. He knows someone brought her down to the Chamber of Secrets, and yet he flings his wand aside in order to make physical contact with Ginny.

I am not saying that Harry secret feelings for Ginny are bubbling up and out. Quite the contrary, I am saying that this sets the tone for how Harry will act when he sees those important to him struck down.

Now lets look at the next chronological example we have of Harry seeing someone he loves “dead” -- Ron. Harry sees Mrs. Weasley boggart and mistakes it for Ron's dead body.


Order of the Phoenix US Hardback page 175, Chapter 9 "The Woes of Mrs. Weasley"

Someone was cowering against the dark wall, her wand in her hand, her whole body shaking with sobs. Sprawled on the dusty old carpet in a patch of moonlight, clearly dead, was Ron.

All the air seemed to vanish from Harry's lungs; he felt as though he were falling through the floor; his brain turned icy cold — Ron dead, no, it couldn't be —

But wait a moment, it couldn't be — Ron was downstairs —

"Mrs. Weasley?" Harry croaked.
"R-r-riddikulus!" Mrs. Weasley sobbed, pointing her shaking wand at Ron's Body.
Crack
Ron's body turned into Bill's…

We know that this scene left mark on Harry because later that night he dreams that he sees Mrs. Weasley sobbing over Kreacher's dead body. An obvious after-effect of this event.

However, more important to my point is the fact that Harry reacts to Ron's fake death similarly to how he act to Ginny's death. He goes into denial. Unlike with Ginny (or for that matter as I will get to Hermione) he doesn't ask that Ron not be dead, he flat out refuses to except it. His thought pattern becomes very simplified -- "Ron, dead, no". He then goes into the "wake up" portion of his reaction. "it couldn't be — wait a moment it couldn't be— Ron was downstairs—", because it is obvious that "Ron" is dead he can't shake the body and tell it to wake up, instead he thinks "it can't be Ron".

He is obviously feeling very intense feeling when he manages to speak because he "croaks" when he talks to Molly. It is also important to note that Harry doesn't act rationally, if he knew for fact that Ron wasn't dead then he should have figured out that this was a boggart, he did, after all, know that Molly had said she was going to take care of the boggart in the drawing room. If he had been truly thinking and acting rationally he would have done as Lupin did and vanquished the thing. Instead he stand there stock still as dead Weasley's parade in front of him.

Which brings us at last to Hermione's pseudo death.

Order of the Phoenix US Hardback Page 792-793 Chapter 35 "Beyond the Veil"

But the Death Eater Hermione had just struck dumb made a sudden slashing movement with his wand from which flew a streak of what looked like purple flame. It passed across Hermione's chest; she gave a tiny "oh!" as though of surprise and then crumpled onto the floor where she lay motionless.

"HERMIONE!"

Harry fell to his knees beside her as Neville crawled rapidly toward her from under the desk his wand held up in front of him…Dolohov [the Death Eater who struck Hermione down] grinned. With his free hand, he pointed from the prophecy still clutched in Harry's hand, to himself, then at Hermione.

Though he could no longer speak his meaning could not have been clearer: Give me the prophecy, or you will get the same as her…

"Like you won't kill us the moment I hand it over anyway!" said Harry.

A whine of panic inside his head was preventing him thinking properly. He had on hand on Hermione's shoulder, which was still warm, yet did not dare look at her properly. Don't let her be dead, don't let her be dead, it's my fault if she's dead…
…

Then there was a crash outside the door, and Dolohov looked over his shoulder…

Harry seized his chance: "PETRIFICUS TOTALUS!"

The spell hit Dolohov before he could block it…

"Hermione," Harry said at once, shaking her as the baby-headed Death Eater blundered out of sight again. "Hermione, wake up…"

"Whaddid he do to her?" said Neville, crawling out from under the desk again to kneel at her other side, blood streaming from his rapidly swelling nose.

"I dunno…"

Neville groped for Hermione's wrist.

"Dat's a pulse, Harry, I'b sure id is…"

Such a powerful wave of relief swept through Harry that for a moment he felt light-headed…

First let me say that I'm not trying to diminish the importance of, nor the gut wrenching power of this scene, but to merely place it in perspective of the books and Harry's previous reactions to show it is consistent with his character and not necessarily indicative of romantic feelings.

His reaction to Hermione's death is almost exactly like his reaction to Ginny’s and Ron's. However, I am going to compare it to Ginny's because it is almost verbatim the same. When Harry sees Ginny dead he says

"Ginny! Ginny— don't be dead — please don't be dead… Ginny, please wake up" and then He flung his wand aside, grabbed Ginny's shoulders, and turned her over [he then shakes her]….

When he thinks Hermione dies he thinks "don't be dead" he tells Herimione to "wake up", and then shakes her. Also unlike how he acted with the both Ginny and Ron's death, this time Harry thinks and acts if not "properly," at least rationally.

Even before Harry knows if Hermione is in fact alive, he is still able to think and be conscious of his surroundings. He is aware of where Neville is, as well as the Death Eaters. He still has enough presence of mind to realize that giving Dolohov the prophecy won't fix anything. And when he (Harry) is given the tiniest chance to act he doesn't hesitate; he realizes that the crash is his chance to move and he "seizes" it. Despite being upset over Hermione’s death, Harry makes rational decisions, and shows that he can keep his head in extreme circumstances.

What I consider to be the death of the theory that Harry's strong reaction to Hermione’s death is linked to his having hidden feeling for her, is Harry's reaction to the death of Sirius. Here we have Harry reacting to death on a scale we have not yet seen equaled. He acts irrationally, passionately, and even cruelly towards Bellatrix, (Harry was not cruel to Dolohov even when he thought Hermione was dead).

Order of the Phoenix page 805-807 Chapters 35 and 36 "Beyond the Veil" and "The Only One He Ever Feared"

The second jet of light hit him [Sirius] squarely on the chest.

The laughter had not quite died from his face, but his eyes widened in shock.

Harry released Neville, though he was unaware of doing so. He was jumping down steps again, pulling out his wand as Dumbledore turned to the dais too.

It seemed to take Sirius an age to fall. His body curved in a graceful arc as he sank backward through the ragged veil hanging from the arch…
…
Harry heard Bellatrix Lestrange's triumphant scream, but knew it meant nothing — Sirius had just fallen through the archway, he would reappear from the other side any second…

But Sirius didn't reappear.
"SIRIUS!" Harry yelled "SIRIUS!"

He reached the floor, his breath coming in searing gasps…

"Get him, save him, he's only just gone through!"
"It's too late, Harry —"
" We can still reach him—"
Harry struggled hard and viciously, but Lupin would not let go…
"There's nothing you can do Harry…nothing… He's gone."
"He hasn't gone!" Harry yelled.
He didn't believe it, he would not believe it…

Bellatrix Lestrange turned tail and ran as Dumbledore whipped around…

"SHE KILLED SIRIUS!" bellowed Harry. "SHE KILLED HIM — I'LL KILL HER!"
…
Page 810 Chapter 36 "The Only One He Ever Feared".

Hatred rose in Harry such as he had never known before. He flung himself out from behind the fountain and bellowed "Crucio."

Notice that when Sirius was hit with a curse, Harry lost his whole perception of the world. He doesn't realize that he released Neville, he isn't aware of where the other Death Eater's are. He only barely notices Dumbledore. This is the strongest reaction that we have from Harry for anyone's “death,” hands down.

Though it still does follow the pattern set originally by Ginny's "death". Harry goes though denial, "He hasn't gone" he goes through the wake up section he calls to Sirius a couple more times. However (speculation here) I think because he has it confirmed that Sirius is actually dead (not the fake deaths of his other friends), we see something new… Blind rage. Harry seems to loose his mind at this point. He runs away follows Bellatrix away from Dumbledore and safety, he follows her past his injured friends, and when he catches her he uses an Unforgivable curse to torture her. Notice the curse he used on Dolohov, it was the "Total Body Bind" curse. His rage at Sirius' actually death has not been matched. I think that Sirius' death shows that raw emotion, (when it comes to the death of those Harry values), is not a good indicator of romantic feelings (hidden or otherwise).

ETA:


Maybe because Harry has a 'saving people thing?' And it bothers him to see anyone lying dead?

But he didn't follow this trend with Cedric. Why did Jo have him follow this trend with Ginny? She could have easily written it like Cedric's; ex: as soon as Harry saw Ginny's body he could have been attack, or seen Tom first. Why did Jo as an Author choose to start Harry's death trend with Ginny? I of course think it's foreshadowing of an H/G romance, but who knows. :)

[Taichi]

Exactly!

thanks everybody for seeing what I see......I know I'm gonna have a hard time convincing the Harry/Hermione shippers, but really, I think it's gonna work out that way, it seems to be (by all evidence given) that that's what JK is moving towards....

I really hope it plays out that way, because that would be the perfect ending, IMHO....

[yxs]

What actually concerns me here, and should concern R/Hr shippers as well is that she seems to hint that maybe Hermione won't make it through. I underlined the part that seems to hint at it.



Yes, I thought about it more and realized that indeed... most people don't predict Hermione's death... we do predict Harry's death and Ron's death, but not Hermione... although people have skirted it... hm... skirted it... like she says... maybe it's what she means in that quote...
Hermione is the one who won't make it.
And that's why most of us don't have our shipping theories quite right... cause there will be no Hermione.

It's sad and hard to think at... but... it can happen.
Rowling usually does things we least expect or at least don't want to believe...

[delemtri]

Of course Hermione's death concerns R/H shippers. It doesn't concern us *regarding shipping* because this is about relationships through the books, not at their end.

[mrs_bombadil]

A few comments on the pseudo deaths...

First I think it's interesting that the effects on Harry of Hermione's are to his head...this links nicely to the usefulness of Hermione's brain. The descriptors of his reaction to Ron seem to relate to hopelessness...the loss of joy. His reaction to Ginny is all action, I'm not sure what this could mean (except that the reaction to Sirius seems pretty physical too :p ).

Now, I don't think it's actually a pro-H/Hr point that Harry is so relieved that Hermione is not dead. If he has a burgeoning (sp?), sub/un-conscious romantic love he could have been more greatly affected. It would have stayed with him in my opinion. The terror at almost losing her and thankfulness that he didn't should have been more prevalent and persistent.

It's also worth noting that we don't have an opportunity in the boggart scene to see Harry react to Ginny again...hmm, wonder why JKR doesn't want us to see that yet. :evil:

[yxs]

Of course Hermione's death concerns R/H shippers. It doesn't concern us *regarding shipping* because this is about relationships through the books, not at their end.

Well, Hermione's death certainly rules out happily ever after Heron love...
even if they do get to a point in the books finally where they have a date or something of the kind...

[mrs_bombadil]

Well, Hermione's death certainly rules out happily ever after Heron love...
even if they do get to a point in the books finally where they have a date or something of the kind...

I don't happen to think Ron or Hermione will die. (Hope not Harry but don't have the same confidence). What I think that quote from Rowling can show is that Hermione is not "untouchable"...her fantastic brain doesn't give her invincibility. She is flawed and vulnerable too and I think Rowling liked those people in Washington because they viewed Hermione as being more "normal" than some do, more realistically.

Yes but he doesn't make any such comment about her voice in OotP about it being shrilly.


This was in relation to the "voice" of the narrative so I'm not sure if you mean she wasn't shrill at all, or that Harry didn't make a conscious note of it that way, or what....but she does indeed speak that way in OotP, once to Hagrid and once to Umbridge.

[yxs]

I don't happen to think Ron or Hermione will die.

Yeah, I already know Heron shippers expect Harry's death...

I am not gonna take sides when it comes to shipping, but I am very against the idea of Harry dying in the end as a tragic hero.
I've heard enough of Harry dying theories and I just simply don't think it will happen.

Now I have here Hermione dying theory... and Rowling might very well mean that with saying it's something only some people have skirted.
No one's quite figured out how the pairings are gonna happen, she said.
Hermione not being there in the end is a possibility.

[mrs_bombadil]

Yeah, I already know Heron shippers expect Harry's death...

I am not gonna take sides when it comes to shipping, but I am very against the idea of Harry dying in the end as a tragic hero.
I've heard enough of Harry dying theories and I just simply don't think it will happen.

Now I have here Hermione dying theory... and Rowling might very well mean that with saying it's something only some people have skirted.
No one's quite figured out how the pairings are gonna happen, she said.
Hermione not being there in the end is a possibility.

yxs my concerns about Harry's survival have absolutely nothing to do with my shipping...if they did I would blindly believe he lives for sure to be ecstatically happy with Ginny. I said I wasn't as confident, that's all. I don't expect it; I don't want it and I don't think most herons do either. In fact, this IS THE BIGGEST MYSTERY. How can any of us be more sure of that than our ships? We just don't know what JK has up her sleeve there.

And you are now paraphrasing that one quote to definitely mean it has to do with the ships when it could (and I think probably does) very well have to do with theories in general. Because, if you look at it logically, it can't just be about the ships when she's said some are indeed quite clear.

[yxs]

How can any of us be more sure of that than our ships? We just don't know what JK has up her sleeve there.

I am actually more sure of that than any of the ships business...

I am 99% sure Harry won't die.
Rowling is not able to do that, she already had to apologize so much after killing Sirius and she cried while she did that... Rowling has put Harry through hell, even though he's her baby, the one she wrote a book about... the only thing we don't have yet is the positive relief... that should come in the end.
It's not so simple that she just decides "I'll kill that character, that character, that character!" Deaths have to have some meaning... especially when it comes to the main character. Writing 7 books about a boy who lived and grew up just to end it all by killing him... I am quite sure Rowling is not planning to do. Harry has to get the life and live the life his parents wished for him to live. His parents sacrificed themselves for that. So that HARRY could live. This story is all about that. And this whole story is a waste if Harry dies in the end. And I seriously don't think Rowling can do it, cause she's been emotionally attached to that character for years... more than any other character in there.

It's not really the mystery if Harry dies or not... everybody's just really worked up about it cause Rowling has joked about it... will the Hero save the day or not?

The real mystery is ... HOW will he do it? And who are the people close to him he's gonna lose?


And you are now paraphrasing that one quote to definitely mean it has to do with the ships when it could (and I think probablydoes) very well have to do with theories in general. Because, if you look at it logically, it can't just be about the ships when she's said some are indeed quite clear.
Quite clear? You mean... ships?
No ships are clear in here... only for diehard shippers maybe

Why shouldn't I think that she talked about pairings in there? I don't know what she meant but I have no reason to believe she was talking about something else.
She answered a question about pairings... why would I assume she changed the subject in the middle of her sentence?
It might be... but nothing says in there that she did it.
She said pairings will happen, but no fan has quite figured out how or who, although we have fun with our theories.
What she said made me also think that the pairings and romance my have more importance in there than we assume... cause she started to talk about something that's "the heart of it all" and this definitely has something to do with the main plot.

[Moonstruck]

To include his best friend, Hermione. Which no more means he's 'in love' with her than it means he's 'in love' with Sirius. :)

And Ron. :eyebrows: Ron had a death scene, too.

I guess Harry is friendless then.

He was facing a DE at the time. So yes not looking at her was a very rational thing to do. As for not checking her pulse. If you are not trained in first aid, which Harry isn't, that is not the first thing you would think of doing. When has Harry ever shown that he knows how to evaluate a body? Neville's parent's are in hospital, and it can be assumed that he has spent much more time around Healer's and those in the medical professor.


But he clearly states that he cannot look at her properly (no mention of a DE).

He had one hand on Hermione's shoulder, which was still warm, yet did not dare look at her properly.

Sorry, but I have no first hand knowledge of how to evaluate a body and I know how to check a pulse. It's something very basic that everyone knows. I learned how in science class. Harry could have, too (he was schooled before Hogwarts, but I don't know what the British teach in primary school).


Okay I'm going repost an essay I wrote on this a while ago though I posted it during a Harmony light period in the LT. Enjoy and feel free to shred.:) (I was kind of disappointed it never got challenged before). REPOST....

You do this now? While I'm eating breakfast? *finishes breakfast first* :p

Now...the one (and only) time I'll pick at an essay...

Okay, lets go back, way back to Chamber of Secrets to be exact. To the first time that Harry has to deal with the "death" of someone important to him, Ginny. I realize that at this point Harry has very rarely talked to Ginny, and that they themselves are not fast friends. However Ginny is still extremely important to Harry at this point because she is a Weasley, and because he can foresee the devastation that her death would bring upon the Weasleys.

After viewing these passages there is little doubt that Ginny is important to Harry. Harry's best friend is devastated, as are Fred, George and I sure the rest of the Weasleys. Because of their intense sorrow, Harry describes that afternoon as the "probably the worst in his life". He takes all of this to heart. So Ginny by proxy of being so important to those around him, becomes very important to Harry, himself, as well.

I do not see anything in the first passage that shows Harry feels Ginny is important to him. As for the second one, how would you feel if the family of one of your closest friends had a family member snatched from them? If Ginny was important to Harry, we would have no mention of Ron, Fred and George, all focus would be on Harry and how much Ginny meant to him. We get nothing like that.

Make a mental note that he pleads with her "don't be dead", and tells her to "wake up" that will be important later in this essay.

Aside from telling her to "don't be dead" he also acts very, very irrationally here, and is obviously not thinking properly. He flings his wand aside even after he's seen with his own eyes the skin of the Basilisk. He knows someone brought her down to the Chamber of Secrets, and yet he flings his wand aside in order to make physical contact with Ginny.

He also says the same thing about Hermione,

A whine of panic inside his head was preventing him thinking properly: he had one hand on Hermione's shoulder, which was still warm, yet did not dare look at her properly. Don't let her be dead, don't let her be dead, it's my fault if she's dead...
OOTP, Beyond the Veil


Harry also behaves irrationally in Hermione's scene as well. He doesn't check a pulse nor does he look at her properly, which could show if she is dead or not.

Also, note that, while Harry knew he was in danger in the Chamber, the place was completely clear as far as Harry could see. In DOM, we have a DE right in Harry's presence. It would be like the Basilisk standing over Ginny when Harry walked in the room. In Chamber, the danger is there, but not seen. In DOM, the danger is there and seen.

However, more important to my point is the fact that Harry reacts to Ron's fake death similarly to how he act to Ginny's death. He goes into denial. Unlike with Ginny (or for that matter as I will get to Hermione) he doesn't ask that Ron not be dead, he flat out refuses to except it. His thought pattern becomes very simplified -- "Ron, dead, no". He then goes into the "wake up" portion of his reaction. "it couldn't be — wait a moment it couldn't be— Ron was downstairs—", because it is obvious that "Ron" is dead he can't shake the body and tell it to wake up, instead he thinks "it can't be Ron".

But Harry realizes the body is a fake. Remember, Harry knew Mrs. Weasley was going to fight a boggart. What are Harry's first words when he remembers Ron is downstairs?

"Mrs. Weasley?' Harry croaked."

So Harry realized it was a boggart-Ron and not the real Ron. He does not lose the abibity to think.

He is obviously feeling very intense feeling when he manages to speak because he "croaks" when he talks to Molly. It is also important to note that Harry doesn't act rationally, if he knew for fact that Ron wasn't dead then he should have figured out that this was a boggart, he did, after all, know that Molly had said she was going to take care of the boggart in the drawing room. If he had been truly thinking and acting rationally he would have done as Lupin did and vanquished the thing. Instead he stand there stock still as dead Weasley's parade in front of him.

But Harry did try to do something. He tried to get Mrs. Weasley out of there. His thoughts were not with vanishing the boggart, but to Mrs. Weasley. His concern was with her (like a child's concern over their mother). He even said, "Let someone else..." before Lupin came in and put an end to it.

It's also likely that Harry has never even seen Mrs. Weasley in such a state before, meaning he would be shocked to see her like that. Futhermore, we get no mention of Harry's thought while the parade of Weasleys went before him. So I think it would be unfair to assume that Harry was not thinking rationally between realizing Ron wasn't dead and Lupin's appearence.

When he thinks Hermione dies he thinks "don't be dead" he tells Herimione to "wake up", and then shakes her. Also unlike how he acted with the both Ginny and Ron's deah, this time Harry thinks and acts if not "properly," at least rationally.

What is the importance of the order of the words? Also, if he were thinking rationally, he would be able to look at Hermione, yet he cannot. Harry can't look at Hermione, but is able to know where Neville is at the time.

Even before Harry knows if Hermione is in fact alive, he is still able to think and be conscious of his surroundings. He is aware of where Neville is, as well as the Death Eaters. He still has enough presence of mind to realize that giving Dolohov the prophecy won't fix anything. And when he (Harry) is given the tiniest chance to act he doesn't hesitate; he realizes that the crash is his chance to move and he "seizes" it. Despite being upset over Hermione’s death, Harry makes rational decisions, and shows that he can keep his head in extreme circumstances.

Again, as I said earlier, Harry is in a situlation where he knows and can see the danger in front of him. Also, as I said above, he cannot look at Hermione, but, as you say, knows where everyone else in the scene is. That is not rational thinking. If he can look at others, but cannot look at someone else (when that could show if the person is dead or not), he's not thinking rationally.

He knows giving the DE's the prophecy wouldn't fix things or else he would have given it to Malfoy earlier. When you are in a battle for your life and you have something the other side wants, do you entertain the thought of giving them what they want. No.

What I consider to be the death of the theory that Harry's strong reaction to Hermione’s death is linked to his having hidden feeling for her, is Harry's reaction to the death of Sirius. Here we have Harry reacting to death on a scale we have not yet seen equaled. He acts irrationally, passionately, and even cruelly towards Bellatrix, (Harry was not cruel to Dolohov even when he thought Hermione was dead).

But with Sirius, Harry does not have a body to hold on to. Harry has Hermione's body to worry over. And Harry knows he loves Sirius (in a fatherly form), but with Hermione, those feelings are hidden, Harry does not realize it yet. Also, Neville comfirms to Harry that Hermione is still alive so Harry does not have to go after Dolohov.

Notice that when Sirius was hit with a curse, Harry lost his whole perception of the world. He doesn't realize that he released Neville, he isn't aware of where the other Death Eater's are. He only barely notices Dumbledore. This is the strongest reaction that we have from Harry for anyone's “death,” hands down.

Of course, it's the strongest. I will not agrue. It is the strongest because Sirius was, at that point, everything to Harry.

Though it still does follow the pattern set originally by Ginny's "death". Harry goes though denial, "He hasn't gone" he goes through the wake up section he calls to Sirius a couple more times. However (speculation here) I think because he has it confirmed that Sirius is actually dead (not the fake deaths of his other friends), we see something new… Blind rage. Harry seems to loose his mind at this point. He runs away follows Bellatrix away from Dumbledore and safety, he follows her past his injured friends, and when he catches her he uses an Unforgivable curse to torture her. Notice the curse he used on Dolohov, it was the "Total Body Bind" curse. His rage at Sirius' actually death has not been matched. I think that Sirius' death shows that raw emotion, (when it comes to the death of those Harry values), is not a good indicator of romantic feelings (hidden or otherwise).

Again, we have this because of Sirius' meaning to Harry. Also, as you pointed out, this death (as far as we know) was real. Harry had a chance the other times to find out that Ginny, Ron and Hermione were actually alive. This time was different, which is why we see the anger and rage.

But he didn't follow this trend with Cedric. Why did Jo have him follow this trend with Ginny? She could have easily written it like Cedric's; ex: as soon as Harry saw Ginny's body he could have been attack, or seen Tom first. Why did Jo as an Author choose to start Harry's death trend with Ginny? I of course think it's foreshadowing of an H/G romance, but who knows. :)

I think the tread was not followed with Cedric was because this was the first time Harry saw a person die. The killing spell was uttered and hit Cedric so Harry was stunned. He has not seen someone die before his very eyes, which could be why the tread is different.

[GinnyxHarry]

That's alright, I find H/G and R/Hr sickening, but that's just me. To each their own basically.
XD Yeah, I don't like RHr, though it's probably gonna happen. :upset: >=[

[sarah12]

Ron is not yet fully conscious of his attraction to Hermione. Not the true nature of it, anyway. He's got no basis for comparison, he's never fallen in love before. So he doesn't yet recognize what's happening to him, as far as his views of Hermione are concerned. As others have pointed out, Rowling herself tells us that something is going on between them, but "Ron doesn't realize it yet. Typical boy."

They're getting there - - :)


well agree on that point...if Ron only realized abt his feelings towards Hermione then i think they both can move to new path...but i guess only Rowling knows the best...n about Harrry i must say that he has no feelings at all for Hermione ..to him she's just a friend...

[yxs]

That's alright, I find H/G and R/Hr sickening, but that's just me. To each their own basically.

They're not sickening (well, maybe Harry/Ginny a little bit, cause the Ginny character just... let's just say Cho was repulsive for me, and Ginny as a character is up higher than Cho, but not a lot higher either)... but those ships don't make me jump for joy either.

Lol... the other day I looked at the forums of a very big H Potter fanfction site and read a bit, what people think in there...
Some things really made me laugh, like "What?? Harry and Hermione together?? Are you mad?? Harry belongs with Draco!"

And people have Ron as their fave character, cause they picture him as this sexy guy with flaming red hair and sexy freckles, lol... and I was really surprised... was thinking "wait, is this the same Ron we are talking about? In Rowling's books?"
And Draco is someone to lust after in there... which is something... that I really... can't understand... as there's absolutely nothing attractive about Draco in any way...

Where do people get this stuff? :wow:

[AmmoniaAlert]

And people have Ron as their fave character, cause they picture him as this sexy guy with flaming red hair and sexy freckles, lol... and I was really surprised... was thinking "wait, is this the same Ron we are talking about? In Rowling's books?"

Where do people get this stuff? :wow:

I suspect they are looking at the actors, in the case of Draco, and probably Ron, too.
Though there are people who love the bad boy image, as long as they don't have to live with someone like that (in the case of Draco).

Though I have to admit having no problems seeing a tall, gangling red-head with freckles (and glasses) as sexy, since I've been married to one for 16 years ;)

And Ron. :eyebrows: Ron had a death scene, too.

I guess Harry is friendless then.



I think no matter how we look at it, all those "death" scenes show clearly that Harry cares, but not that he cares for one more than the others, or has hidden romantic feelings for any of the candidates.

[fire_angel]

I'm 99% sure Hr and R will have a relationship in one of the future books. Even get married maybe... :eyebrows:

[yxs]

I suspect they are looking at the actors, in the case of Draco, and probably Ron, too.
Though there are people who love the bad boy image, as long as they don't have to live with someone like that (in the case of Draco).
Hm, yeah, maybe... the actors are cute, but a bit young, I think.
Well, for me at least... but for younger fans, I guess... it's understandable.

But like Rowling said herself... I think that too... she has a perfect good guy in there (Harry), who has some "bad boy" sides too and can have behaviour problems... yet, he's the perfect one girls should go for. Not the evil type.
Well, bad boy might be tempting for young girls... but Draco is not that case really, he's nasty and totally unpleasant.

Ahh, lol... fans

[Polychrome]

Wow, there are actually other N/Hr shippers besides me? XD H/G N/Hr Ron/Cho (shrug) and Draco/Luna for me. No offence, but HHr and DG kinda make me sick, no offense to anyone whom ships them!

Ron and... Cho? I wouldn't wish Cho on anyone. o_O

[mrs_bombadil]

I am actually more sure of that than any of the ships business...

I am 99% sure Harry won't die.
Rowling is not able to do that, she already had to apologize so much after killing Sirius and she cried while she did that... Rowling has put Harry through hell, even though he's her baby, the one she wrote a book about... the only thing we don't have yet is the positive relief... that should come in the end.
It's not so simple that she just decides "I'll kill that character, that character, that character!" Deaths have to have some meaning... especially when it comes to the main character. Writing 7 books about a boy who lived and grew up just to end it all by killing him... I am quite sure Rowling is not planning to do. Harry has to get the life and live the life his parents wished for him to live. His parents sacrificed themselves for that. So that HARRY could live. This story is all about that. And this whole story is a waste if Harry dies in the end. And I seriously don't think Rowling can do it, cause she's been emotionally attached to that character for years... more than any other character in there.

It's not really the mystery if Harry dies or not... everybody's just really worked up about it cause Rowling has joked about it... will the Hero save the day or not?

The real mystery is ... HOW will he do it? And who are the people close to him he's gonna lose?

You make some very nice points. I don't really want to argue because I would certainly love to be so sure...but I'm not. Especially because Harry dying doesn't have to be a horrible thing, imo. We'll see...

Quite clear? You mean... ships?
No ships are clear in here... only for diehard shippers maybe

Based on her quotes this year, something should be easy to figure out, or "quite clear" in my words.

Why shouldn't I think that she talked about pairings in there? I don't know what she meant but I have no reason to believe she was talking about something else.
She answered a question about pairings... why would I assume she changed the subject in the middle of her sentence?

It's possible because the question is about unlikely pairings and JKR doesn't use that phrase anymore...she says "theories".

It might be... but nothing says in there that she did it.
She said pairings will happen, but no fan has quite figured out how or who, although we have fun with our theories.

She doesn't specifically say pairings here...anyway, I agree it could be about pairings, but unlikely pairings if so...something nobody has really figured out yet which leads me to believe it's only about Harry or it's about the adults.

What she said made me also think that the pairings and romance my have more importance in there than we assume... cause she started to talk about something that's "the heart of it all" and this definitely has something to do with the main plot.

That and all of her "errs" and stuff are part of why I think it may be theories in general (remember, Draco & Hermione were the example before she said theories so I think this has to do with particularly bold predictions).

[Krumpet]

You do this now? While I'm eating breakfast? *finishes breakfast first* :p

Now...the one (and only) time I'll pick at an essay...

And you choose now to counter my essay? After I've started studying for my finals... A well who really needs to know the difference between ACTH and ADH? :evil: :D

Out of curiosity did you read my whole essay first or counter each part as you read it? I'm going to sum a couple of the counter arguments up if that's okay with you, because otherwise I'm going to be very repetitive. :)

But he clearly states that he cannot look at her properly (no mention of a DE).

He can't look at her immediately after saying to the DE

"Like you won't kill us all the moment I hand it over anyway!"

So that tells me that he facing the DE and that he knows he's in a life threatening situation, one where a moments distraction can make all the difference; as shown when Harry seized Dolohov's momentary distraction to best him. If Harry had stopped and diverted his attention to look at Hermione that would have been an example of him not acting properly/ rationally. The fact that his attention stayed on the DEs in the room, (both Dolohov and then Babyface) shows he was acting rationally, and very much like the hero he is.

Once the DEs are no longer and immediate threat he diverts his attention to Hermione. [

Sorry, but I have no first hand knowledge of how to evaluate a body and I know how to check a pulse. It's something very basic that everyone knows. I learned how in science class. Harry could have, too (he was schooled before Hogwarts, but I don't know what the British teach in primary school).

Actually the very, very first thing you do when you come upon an unconscious body is take it by the shoulders and shake it gently, while either call out "Madam" "Sir" or the person's name. Then you check the pulse, try to see if the are breathing and commence CPR if the person isn't breathing/ hearts not working. You don't want to do CPR of the person's heart/ lungs are functioning because you can often break ribs, and pump air into the stomach in the process of administering CPR (I'm a nursing major who just had to finish her first add courses over the summer).

Now I doubt Harry knows how to check a pulse, but that is almost beside the point because he did the very first thing your supposed to do, and then presto Neville was there to check the pulse.

I do not see anything in the first passage that shows Harry feels Ginny is important to him. As for the second one, how would you feel if the family of one of your closest friends had a family member snatched from them? If Ginny was important to Harry, we would have no mention of Ron, Fred and George, all focus would be on Harry and how much Ginny meant to him. We get nothing like that.

Ah... :D I guess I didn't make my point very well :). Ginny is important to Harry in CoS because, and think only because she was 1) a person in need of rescuing, and a little girl on top of that; and 2) she was a Weasley. He isn't close to her in this book, but he is close to her family. And her family is torn up about the fact she's missing, he knows her family torn up about it and so she is important to him because she is his best friends little sister.

Chamber of Secrets US Paperback Page 293, Chapter 16 "The Chamber of Secrets"
Harry felt Ron slide silently down onto the wardrobe floor beside him.

Harry sees Ron get so upset that he's legs actually give out.


Page 295 (same chapter)
It was probably the worst day of Harry's entire life. He, Ron, Fred, and George sat together in a corner of the Gryffindor common room, unable to say anything to each other…

He sees the Twins and Ron in silent agony, and takes it to heart very much. Their pain in many ways becomes his pain, not because he's so close to Ginny, but because he feels what effect her disappearance has on those close to him.

"…She found something out about the Chamber of Secrets. That must be why she was—" Ron rubbed his eyes frantically. "I mean, she was a pure-blood. There can't be any other reason."

We have never seen Ron cry, (and that's what I think he's doing here) on any other occasion, and I don't think Harry has either. Harry is seeing and feeling the unabashed grief of those around him and it affects his very deeply. Their pain makes Ginny important to Harry because Ginny is the cause of the pain and the cure for it. Is it any wonder that he has such a strong reaction to finding her dead?



Also, note that, while Harry knew he was in danger in the Chamber, the place was completely clear as far as Harry could see. In DOM, we have a DE right in Harry's presence. It would be like the Basilisk standing over Ginny when Harry walked in the room. In Chamber, the danger is there, but not seen. In DOM, the danger is there and seen.

Harry knew the danger was real and that the danger was near. He should have acted more rationally. But you also have a very good point :). Couldn't some of the "whine of panic" inside Harry's head not been due to the fact that he is essentially now fighting a grown DE alone, he has no idea what became of his other friends, Neville's hurt, Hermione's "dead", and this is all "his fault". Not just because Hermione's "dead".

Also on this point. Why didn't Jo write it like this(to give us a Cedric type reaction)? Why did she make a point of giving us this scene between Ginny/Harry? Being that all other scenes like this are between Harry and people he loves? If by, chance and only by chance, the Harmony doesn't sail and the Chocolate does will you look at scene differently?


But Harry realizes the body is a fake. Remember, Harry knew Mrs. Weasley was going to fight a boggart. What are Harry's first words when he remembers Ron is downstairs?

"Mrs. Weasley?' Harry croaked."

So Harry realized it was a boggart-Ron and not the real Ron. He does not lose the ability to think.

But Harry did try to do something. He tried to get Mrs. Weasley out of there. His thoughts were not with vanquishing the boggart, but to Mrs. Weasley. His concern was with her (like a child's concern over their mother). He even said, "Let someone else..." before Lupin came in and put an end to it.

Harry has faced among other things Lord Voldemort; a Troll; a Sphinx; Great Spiders; Dragons; Merefolk etc.. Just previous to this he fought off two dementors. Do you really think he couldn't have handled a simple Boggart? He faced and vanquished them before; (if this were Hermione I'd agree that flight might seem a better option). But he is unable to face this boggart, or think clearly enough to vanquish it; his only thoughts are to get Mrs. Weasley to run. This is not a rational/ logical action. Lupin acted rationally, Harry didn't.

It's also likely that Harry has never even seen Mrs. Weasley in such a state before, meaning he would be shocked to see her like that. Furthermore, we get no mention of Harry's thought while the parade of Weasleys went before him. So I think it would be unfair to assume that Harry was not thinking rationally between realizing Ron wasn't dead and Lupin's appearance.

Harry didn't act rationally. He could have beaten the thing and stopped the horrible scene as soon as he saw it change into Bill but he didn't. I think this was because

All the air seemed to vanish from Harry's lungs; he felt as though he were falling through the floor; his brain turned icy cold

Harry is emotionally winded here. He's thought pattern doesn't get back on track until after the thing is killed. You're right that he has never seen Mrs. Weasley like that but, when the air disappeared from his lungs and his brain turned to ice it was before he knew who she was.


What is the importance of the order of the words?

It's important because that is the exact same script he used when Ginny dies. His reaction to Hermione's death fits a pattern, and is not a unique thing emotionally from him. :)


Again, as I said earlier, Harry is in a situation where he knows and can see the danger in front of him. Also, as I said above, he cannot look at Hermione, but, as you say, knows where everyone else in the scene is. That is not rational thinking. If he can look at others, but cannot look at someone else (when that could show if the person is dead or not), he's not thinking rationally.

He knows giving the DE's the prophecy wouldn't fix things or else he would have given it to Malfoy earlier. When you are in a battle for your life and you have something the other side wants, do you entertain the thought of giving them what they want. No.

He doesn't look around at other he is simply aware of movement and that everyone has maintained their position. Unlike with Sirius death where he loses the world.

When Hermione goes down he keeps his perception. Notice he doesn't try to use the Prophecy as a bartering chip to get the DE to fix Hermione. He stays rational.

But with Sirius, Harry does not have a body to hold on to. Harry has Hermione's body to worry over. And Harry knows he loves Sirius (in a fatherly form), but with Hermione, those feelings are hidden, Harry does not realize it yet. Also, Neville confirms to Harry that Hermione is still alive so Harry does not have to go after Dolohov.

Of course, it's the strongest. I will not argue. It is the strongest because Sirius was, at that point, everything to Harry.

I'm a little bit confused. :) You argued your points well, and did make me have to justify a few things and re-evaluate the cannon. But I not sure where you stand?

Do you think that Hermione's "death" and Harry's reaction to it is a clue for the Harmony? Or do you just think it's important and don't want to see it trivialized? Do you agree with that reaction to death is not indicative to romantic feelings because you agree that his reaction to Sirius' death is the strongest?

[Angua9]

I'm sorry; I missed this one before:
BTW, Angua9, I can't find on that page where JKR says that Harry has instintive moral superiority, or even anything like this. Perhaps you could point it out roughly where it is please?
From here (http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/1999/1099-bostonglobe-loer.html):

Harry can only get to a certain point in an adventure by breaking some rules. His particular role in the group [of three friends] is conscience. He will break the rule if he thinks he's doing it for the greater good. But he has a fundamental sense of honor, and he learns that the choices a person makes show more of who you are than your abilities.

She says Harry is the conscience of the trio, just like, elsewhere (http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/1999/1099-connectiontransc.html), she said Hermione was the brains of the trio. Like Hermione's brains are the best of the three ("most brilliant," as JKR puts it), Harry's conscience is the best of the three.

Jo actually talks about Harry's conscience a lot. For instance (http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/1999/1099-connectiontransc.html):

Harry is someone who is forced, for such a young person, to make his own choices. He has very limited access to truly caring adults and he is guided by his conscience. Now, Harry makes mistakes repeatedly. Harry did things like --- he did steal the flying car. That was a very stupid thing to do, but it seemed like a great idea at the time. We’ve all been there. But, ultimately Harry is guided by his conscience.

And (http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2000/1100-garcia-dateline-2.html):

`He is vulnerable; he is frequently afraid; he has a very strong conscience, and it is my belief that with the overwhelming majority of human beings--maybe I`m a wild optimist--most people do try to do the right thing, by their own lights.`

The "instinctive" part was not Rowling, but just my observation from the books. Hermione makes her moral decisions based on rational precepts ("slavery is wrong") while Harry's are instantaneous decisions in action (eg. not allowing Pettigrew to be killed or giving the Triwizard Cup to Cedric).

Six main reasons now? [grin]
:D I was already including the "hidden right under our nose" syndrome in the "literary structure and foreshadowing" category, but I wasn't thinking about the quotes -- so that makes five main reasons! And if the "holy grail" quote could actually be found, there wouldn't be much point in arguing any more.

Why isn't it comparable? Moonstruck even said Quality(Ginny in this case-200 times) is better than Quanity(Hermione-4000 times) ;)
Whoa there, CD! FlyingPhoenix's numbers are a little off. By my count Ginny's name is mentioned 419 times in the first five books, not 200. And Hermione's name is mentioned 3417 times, not 4000.

Just my correcting-people thing kicking in. :)

Nope, he wanted Hermione not the whole world.
No. He. Didn't. That was the whole point of the scene, or have you forgotten?

1 - Harry's scar hurt and he had a bad dream.

2 - He tried to think of someone to tell.

3 - He thought of Hermione.

4 - He remembered that Hermione would say, in a shrill and panicky voice "tell Dumbledore" and "look it up in a book."

5 - He rejected the idea of telling Hermione.

6 - He thought of Ron.

7 - He remembered that Ron would ask his dad, which would cause the twins to look down on Harry and Molly to "fuss worse than Hermione".

8 - He rejected the idea of telling Ron.

9 - He thought of Sirius.

10 - He told Sirius.

To brazenly say that Harry "wanted Hermione" when the text clearly shows him rejecting Hermione isn't interpreting the text, it's writing your own text.

And people have Ron as their fave character, cause they picture him as this sexy guy with flaming red hair and sexy freckles, lol... and I was really surprised... was thinking "wait, is this the same Ron we are talking about? In Rowling's books?"

Where do people get this stuff? :wow:
:D Well, the "flaming red hair" and "freckles" parts... from canon. The "sexy" part... from their own taste, which varies from person to person -- as can be clearly seen in canon from the different reactions to Hermione. ;) Heck, even Draco Malfoy has an admirer in canon, or appears to. Even HAGRID does.

[SQUIB182]

I don't see how you can be so quick to juge, Nevil was the first to realise Hermione is a GIRL!!! Harry never thought of that, and Ronald had a dawned look on his face :angel: then, Ron is more mad than Harry ,and is sulky when Hermione is with Krum ,he said it's because "you're frantisising with the enimy" but he ignores his date, who is , "..the prettiest girls in the whole shcool" :eyebrows: makes you think, dosent it...

[Moonstruck]

And you choose now to counter my essay? After I've started studying for my finals... A well who really needs to know the difference between ACTH and ADH? :evil: :D

Hey! I countered it around noon! :p

Out of curiosity did you read my whole essay first or counter each part as you read it? I'm going to sum a couple of the counter arguments up if that's okay with you, because otherwise I'm going to be very repetitive. :)

I countered each part. I try to post as fast as I can when it comes to the place so I don't read things before I post. I don't mind if you sum up my counters.

So that tells me that he facing the DE and that he knows he's in a life threatening situation, one where a moments distraction can make all the difference; as shown by the Harry seized Dolohov's momentary distraction to best him. If Harry had stopped and diverted his attention to look at Hermione that would have been an example of him not acting properly/ rationally. The fact that his attention stayed on the DEs in the room, (both Dolohov and then Babyface) shows he was acting rationally, and very much like the hero he is.

Just because he is able to talk and face the DE's doesn't mean he's acting rationally. I don't think Harry was acting rationally when Sirius died, but he was talking and facing Bellatrix after it happened. Also, the book says he wasn't thinking properly, not he wasn't acting properly. Thinking and acting are two different things. You can act without thinking and you can think without acting. Harry, in this case, was acting without thinking.




Now I doubt Harry knows how to check a pulse, but that is almost beside the point because he did the very first thing your supposed to do, and then presto Neville was there to check the pulse.

How do you know he does not? I would say shaking someone you know would be instinctual (you shake someone in order to wake them up from sleep).

But if he does not know how to check a pulse, then could you answer me this? Why does Harry think Hermione is dead when he knows she is warm? If he knows not how to check to see if a body is dead or not, then he would think she is still alive because she is warm, but yet he still thinks she is dead despite knowing that.

Ah... :D I guess I didn't make my point very well :). Ginny is important to Harry in CoS because, and think only because she was 1) a person in need of rescuing, and a little girl on top of that; and 2) she was a Weasley. He isn't close to her in this book, but he is close to her family. And her family is torn up about the fact she's missing, he knows her family torn up about it and so she is important to him because she is his best friends little sister.

That's fine. I agree with that.

Harry knew the danger was real and that the danger was near. He should have acted more rationally. But you also have a very good point :). Couldn't some of the "whine of panic" inside Harry's head not been due to the fact that he is essentially now fighting a grown DE alone, he has no idea what became of his other friends, Neville's hurt, Hermione's "dead", and this is all "his fault". Not just because Hermione's "dead".

He knew the danger was near, but he couldn't see it. With the DE, he knew and saw it. In the Chamber, he was going to get Ginny and get out. No intention to stay and fight. In DOM, he had no choice because the danger was right in front of him.

It's possible that the whine of panic could be from facing a DE alone, however, the next thing that comes after that is Harry's thoughts on Hermione, which is why I think it could be because Hermione's 'dead.'

Also on this point. Why didn't Jo write it like this(to give us a Cedric type reaction)? Why did she make a point of giving us this scene between Ginny/Harry? Being that all other scenes like this are between Harry and people he loves? If by, chance and only by chance, the Harmony doesn't sail and the Chocolate does will you look at scene differently?

Doubt it. I'll likely look at the scene and whince at what could have been. :(

I'm assuming that talking about why she didn't write the COS Harry/Ginny scene like Cedric's? Well, I'm guessing it's like this: Harry had other things on his mind with Cedric (Wormtail, shock of actually seeing Cedric dying, Voldemort coming back). Cedric was, as Voldemort said, the spare. He was not meant to be there. With Ginny, the focus was almost always on her as she was the reason for Harry being there. I don't think she could have made that scene look like Cedric's without making Harry seem like a cold, uncaring person.


Harry has faced among other things Lord Voldemort; a Troll; a Sphinx; Great Spiders; Dragons; Merefolk etc.. Just previous to this he fought off two dementors. Do you really think he couldn't have handled a simple Boggart? He faced and vanquished them before; (if this were Hermione I'd agree that flight might seem a better option). But he is unable to face this boggart, or think clearly enough to vanquish it; his only thoughts are to get Mrs. Weasley to run. This is not a rational/ logical action. Lupin acted rationally, Harry didn't.

Even if Harry had never seen Mrs. Weasley like that before? He's seen her strong, but not like this. We have nothing in the book that talks about Harry's facing of the boggart. The book ignores Harry in that part, only coming back when Harry tries to get Mrs. Weasley out of the room.

Harry didn't act rationally. He could have beaten the thing and stopped the horrible scene as soon as he saw it change into Bill but he didn't. I think this was because

Harry is emotionally winded here. He's thought pattern doesn't get back on track until after the thing is killed. You're right that he has never seen Mrs. Weasley like that but, when the air disappeared from his lungs and his brain turned to ice it was before he knew who she was.

Of course, he could have beaten the thing. I didn't say he couldn't. But he realized what was going on after his brain turned to ice and air disapeared from his lungs.

With Lupin, he's more mature and has likely seen stuff like Mrs. Weasley's reaction before (now that I think of it, he has: James and Lily). That's why he was able to respond like he did, while Harry's thoughts were on Mrs. Weasley.

It's important because that is the exact same script he used when Ginny dies. His reaction to Hermione's death fits a pattern, and is not a unique thing emotional from him. :)

It's almost the same. There is one thing that is different:

Ginny: "Don't be dead."

Hermione: "Don't let her be dead."

What's the difference? With Ginny, Harry is speaking to her. He is asking her to not be dead. With Hermione, he is asking someone else for her to not be dead, almost in the form of a wish or a prayer. That is the one thing that is not in any other death scene, nor do I think Harry has ever done something like that (wishing/praying) before (if there is, please tell me! :) ).

When Hermione goes down he keeps his perception. Notice he doesn't try to use the Prophecy as a battering chip to get the DE to fix Hermione. He stays rational.

Or the thought didn't cross his mind. Either way, I doubt Harry would do something like that. Unlike the DE's, Harry would keep his word and I think he knew this was something too important to give over (despite that it had no real meaning to him yet).



I'm a little bit confused. :) You argued your points well, and did make me have to justify a few things and re-evaluate the cannon. But I not sure where you stand?

Do you think that Hermione's "death" and Harry's reaction to it is a clue for the Harmony? Or do you just think it's important and don't want to see it trivialized? Do you agree with that reaction to death is not indicative to romantic feelings because you agree that his reaction to Sirius' death is the strongest?

I think it is a clue to Harmony. With Sirius, he was important to Harry. If Sirius had not died, I think that Harry would have thought about Hermione's brush with death more than he did. Just because I think it's a clue to Harmony doesn't mean I'm going to ignore the rest of the book. Harry is not at the point where he sees the importance of Hermione at the level where Sirius stood. To me, the scene shows he is getting there. Once he does, he'll realize his love for Hermione. :D

[Catriona Rhiann]

Okay, ships.

I think that R/Hr will get together in the 6th book. I think Ron will finally reveal that he feels more-than-friendly towards Hermione. And I think that Hermione will be flattered and will agree to go out with him. I envision all this happening before Harry gets to the Burrow/Grimmauld Place, so this will all be happening off-book.

I do think, however, that they would realize that, halfway through the book, that they aren't compatible and that if they want to remain friends, that they should just stop seeing each other.

Harry/Ginny, to me, isn't even possible. The chances of them possibly getting together have increased, but not by much. The foundation is still rather shaky. If the books end up OBHWF, I'll be thoroughly put-off. Not because H/Hr don't get together, but because it's incredibly cliche.

R/L is my second favorite ship. I mean, clearly the girl is somewhat fascinated with Ron, and Ron doesn't just ignore her. I hope Ron grows up and sees Luna as she is, not as some crazy girl.

I don't know if H/Hr will get together, even though I dearly want them to. I hope they do. I mean, there's enough foundation for them, just as much as the R/Hr ship. I just don't see Harry with anyone else. Hermione is the only person I see as Harry's magical, emotional equal.

[Lord Voldivader]

Okay, ships.

I think that R/Hr will get together in the 6th book. I think Ron will finally reveal that he feels more-than-friendly towards Hermione. And I think that Hermione will be flattered and will agree to go out with him. I envision all this happening before Harry gets to the Burrow/Grimmauld Place, so this will all be happening off-book.

I do think, however, that they would realize that, halfway through the book, that they aren't compatible and that if they want to remain friends, that they should just stop seeing each other.


I doubt that theory more than each other, I can't see why Rowling should split up two best friends in a book for children (well, not just for children, also for adults and...you know what I mean). And it's no soap opera...

[FredFancier]

And why so many people have Hr/H as their "gut feeling" is hard to understand... if it's so obvious they won't get together...
oh, my gut feeling is that H/Hr wont happen and R/Hr will. most shippers have a gut feeling for their ship. and there are some neutrals with R/Hr gut feeling and some for H/Hr, I dont think gut feelings will be deciding ships
Funny, she also made a very big and important point about Harry needing Hermione badly. She was irritated by the constant calls for a strong female character, and she pointed out that Hermione was a strong character, that Harry needed her badly.
well who else would have taught him the summoning charm? That doesnt mean hes in love with her! (nor does it mean she'd like him back)

[OhhhMacadamia]

R/L is my second favorite ship. I mean, clearly the girl is somewhat fascinated with Ron, and Ron doesn't just ignore her. I hope Ron grows up and sees Luna as she is, not as some crazy girl.
Excuse me? Luna is quite Loony. I'm sorry. She rocks, and I love her, but if you were a teenage boy you wouldn't exactly think of her as a potential hook-up buddy, you know?

Harry/Ginny, to me, isn't even possible. The chances of them possibly getting together have increased, but not by much. Shrug. It would just be so perfect, so different from her original crush. She's not a little girl anymore. AND she has red hair like Lily. It would just be so, you know, warm and fuzzy... :love:

I doubt that theory more than each other, I can't see why Rowling should split up two best friends in a book for children (well, not just for children, also for adults and...you know what I mean). And it's no soap opera... An excellent point here. In addition, remember: The focus of the books is not the romance. So I severly doubt that all of the drama is going to be in that department. And, honestly, how much drama can one book hold? I mean, really.

Ron, and Hermione. The perfect pair to back up their best friend, Harry. Fuzzy, you know. Opposites attract.

[Krumpet]

Moonstruck thanks you for your intelligent arguments, and points I always love to understand how opposing ships think. I wish I were debating this with you when I had more time. Agree to disagree? :)
The foundation is still rather shaky. If the books end up OBHWF, I'll be thoroughly put-off. Not because H/Hr don't get together, but because it's incredibly cliche.



What is OBHWF?

[rightstuff]

I keep reading the agrument of Harry's reaction to Hermione's death scene. The scene clearly state he panicked.


A whine of panic inside his head was preventing him thinking properly.



Main Entry: 2panic
Function: noun
1 : a sudden overpowering fright; especially : a sudden unreasoning terror often accompanied by mass flight


Main Entry: un·rea·son·ing
Function: adjective
: not reasoning; especially : not moderated or controlled by reason <unreasoning fear>

Entry Word: rational
Function: adjective
Text: agreeable to reason <offered a rational explanation>
Synonyms consequent, intelligent, logical, reasonable, sensible, sound
Related Word calm, cool, level-headed, sober, stable; circumspect, judicious, prudent; lucid, normal, sane
Contrasted Words rash, reckless, wild; groundless, illogical, unreasonable, unreasoning, unsound; crazy, demented, deranged
Antonyms animal, irrational; absurd

If you read these definitions, you see that Harry panicked means he had a unreasoning fear, or irrational fear.

Therefore it would be an oxymoron to be rationaly panicked.
BTW all defintions are from Merriam Webster.
http://www.m-w.com/

[Moonstruck]

Moonstruck thanks you for your intelligent arguments, and points I always love to understand how opposing ships think. I wish I were debating this with you when I had more time. Agree to disagree? :)

You're welcome. I wish you had more time (I felt I made some good arguements in my last post :evil: ).

What is OBHWF?

I know it's not directed at me, but OBHWF means One Big Happy Weasley Family (in other words, what it will be if R/Hr & H/G get together. I think it's way to much of a perfect ending to happen (All the friends end up related to each other??????? :nc: Too odd for me).

[FredFancier]

I keep reading the agrument of Harry's reaction to Hermione's death scene. The scene clearly state he panicked.
are you saying that means he likes her? I can dig out my copy of OotP but if u look, he showed more emotion to rons "death"
but honestly cant we leave it at, friends dont want their friends to die?

[rightstuff]

No I am said that Harry was not rational . That says nothing about whether he like Hermione or not. It is just a fallicous arguement to say he was rational.

[IceKat55]

I doubt that theory more than each other, I can't see why Rowling should split up two best friends in a book for children (well, not just for children, also for adults and...you know what I mean). And it's no soap opera...
Precisely. There's only two books to go, and a MAJOR war starting in the Wizarding World. More importantly, these aren't romance novels.

No love triangles necessary. And Rowling has told us that the answer is already obvious. To this point, the tension is between R/Hr. *does math* :D

I know it's not directed at me, but OBHWF means One Big Happy Weasley Family (in other words, what it will be if R/Hr & H/G get together. I think it's way to much of a perfect ending to happen (All the friends end up related to each other??????? :nc: Too odd for me).
I think it'd be great - - Harry would have his two best friends (R/Hr) and his true love (Ginny) all wrapped up in one family, which is what he's always longed for. I love happy endings! ;)

[ginny88]

Just bought a copy of POA dvd, loved it! After watching the goodies (deleted scenes, interviews), I also re-watched my COS dvd.

Jo and Steve Kloves (scriptwriter) were being interviewed and Steve mentioned that he has lots of consultation to do with Jo to check if he's on the right track. No one knows the ending to the HP saga but Jo and she's pretty secretive about it ofcourse, so Steve just want to know if his interpretation of COS is right. Jo said that Steve's very perceptive coz he's able to pick up things that's supposed to happen in book 4 (GOF) about certain feelings between the trio. And I think she's referring to the great hall scene where Hermione hugged Harry but hesitant to do it with Ron, and Ron's embarrassed about it.

So this foreshadowing in COS was continued at POA in the scene where Harry's in danger of being trampled by Buckbeak and both Hermione and Ron are frightened for his sake, and unconciously tried to hold hands, but stopped themselves.

And we know in GOF, Ron will get jealous of Krum.

What I'm saying is, the budding romance is bet Hermione and Ron. I think that what's Jo wants to tell us.

And as for Harry, well I think he's got loads of stuff in his mind esp books 6 & 7, to think about romance. He'll survive as Jo said in one of her interviews, and although that made me sigh in relief, I'm still very excited about the remaining books, esp how Harry and his friends/ OotP will defeat LV in the end, and who will be the casualties. I'm sure Jo has still lots of ace in her sleeves and will keep us surprised. Perhaps Harry will find love after the war. He deserves it. Will it be Ginny, Luna, Cho? We'll see...

BTW, have you seen the interview with Harry Potter cast members during the POA dvd launch by Canadian" ETalk Daily" . Here's a quote from:

Emma Watson: "I'd quite like to see Ron and Hermione together. It's gotta happen. You know, it's there!"

video (http://www.veritaserum.com/media/2004/11/22/etalk-poadvd.shtml)

[Moonstruck]

I think it'd be great - - Harry would have his two best friends (R/Hr) and his true love (Ginny) all wrapped up in one family, which is what he's always longed for. I love happy endings! ;)

I think it's icky. Harry wants a family. Not his friends become his family.

[yxs]

I don't know if H/Hr will get together, even though I dearly want them to. I hope they do. I mean, there's enough foundation for them, just as much as the R/Hr ship. I just don't see Harry with anyone else. Hermione is the only person I see as Harry's magical, emotional equal.

Yeah... the old can't-see-Harry-with-anybody-else problem... lol

Been there, done that... been thinking a lot and finally... I'm still there... huuhh. Not much smarter. :shrug:

And, honestly, how much drama can one book hold? I mean, really.



Oh, now... I thought it could handle LOADS of drama! As most people seem to think... angst, death, pain, suffering, depression... more deaths... and Harry's death too finally.

(sarcasm coming back)
:angel:

[SQUIB182]

I think that Ginny deserves someone, but i think she is going to be one of those "short atention span" kind of girls, the real heart-breakers.

[JBaker]

It's not only that Harry is not physically attracted to Hermione - - it's other things that show they are incompatible.

When Harry gets in 'one of his moods' and goes all CAPS!LOCK, Hermione isn't always able to handle him. He brings her to tears, she steps away from him in apprehension, he had an urge to physically shake her at one point because he was so frustrated with her.


Again I have to disagree. Who helped Harry out of the room at christmas? Who was it that got him to calm down at the beginning? Who got him to calm down when talking about the D.A? Who was it that was able to get him to check upp on Sirius at Grimmauld Place before the MOM battle? These are all evidence to show that she can handle capslock Harry.

Yes but why is it that he is so adamant in getting her support? Why is he so desperate to get her help, that he even willingly compromises on a plan (even though at that moment, he thought Sirius was being tortured). He then even acknowledges her solidarity and loyalty.


Harry can't deal with the nagging side of her nature. He tends to avoid it, he tries to tune her out, and he has even lied to her in order to avoid a confrontation. He sometimes describes her voice as 'shrill' or 'hissing' or some other rather unpleasant sound - - not to say that he hates that about her, but if they ever did get together, Harry would have to learn to deal with several annoying things about her character that, so far, he seems unwilling to adapt to.


Yes he lies to her, and can't even look her in the eyes when doing it (perhaps feeling shame from it). Yes in GOF he does but when in OotP does he think of her voice as shrilly? And I disagree that he won't change at all from what he is.


None of these things would be a good base to build a solid, sharing partnership on. They are simply not romantically compatible.

Ron and Hermione, on the other hand, are. They can deal with each other on very even-footing. Rowling didn't choose to write all the characters' interactions that way for no reason. :)

I have already pointed out that Ron gets annoyed and irritated by Hermione as well. Hermione gets annoyed and irritated by Ron and both end up arguing with each other. This is handling, when they either shut down each other', when they argue and become annoyed enough not to talk with one another? Not at all an even footing as you put it.

[delemtri]

I do think, however, that they would realize that, halfway through the book, that they aren't compatible and that if they want to remain friends, that they should just stop seeing each other.

Why?

Harry/Ginny, to me, isn't even possible. The chances of them possibly getting together have increased, but not by much. The foundation is still rather shaky. If the books end up OBHWF, I'll be thoroughly put-off. Not because H/Hr don't get together, but because it's incredibly cliche.

Why is this so often the threat - "I won't like the books if such and such happens"? I've seen it from both sides and it is the worst possible thing one can say.

R/L is my second favorite ship. I mean, clearly the girl is somewhat fascinated with Ron, and Ron doesn't just ignore her. I hope Ron grows up and sees Luna as she is, not as some crazy girl.

I hope both Ron and Hermione grow up and see this.

I don't know if H/Hr will get together, even though I dearly want them to. I hope they do. I mean, there's enough foundation for them, just as much as the R/Hr ship. I just don't see Harry with anyone else. Hermione is the only person I see as Harry's magical, emotional equal.

Intellectual superior, fine, but magical and emotional equal? JKR has said herself that Harry would destroy Hermione in a duel - indeed, I am of the belief that he could take on almost anyone in the Order - and he's lived through ten years of abuse and watched loved ones die and Voldemort come back to life. Hermione is Harry's emotional equal? Give the hero some credit.

I have already pointed out that Ron gets annoyed and irritated by Hermione as well. Hermione gets annoyed and irritated by Ron and both end up arguing with each other. This is handling, when they either shut down each other', when they argue and become annoyed enough not to talk with one another? Not at all an even footing as you put it.

How is that not an even footing? Maybe you don't like the way they interact, but you must admit they do and always have done as equals.

[JBaker]

I'm sorry; I missed this one before:

From here (http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/1999/1099-bostonglobe-loer.html):

Harry can only get to a certain point in an adventure by breaking some rules. His particular role in the group [of three friends] is conscience. He will break the rule if he thinks he's doing it for the greater good. But he has a fundamental sense of honor, and he learns that the choices a person makes show more of who you are than your abilities.

She says Harry is the conscience of the trio, just like, elsewhere (http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/1999/1099-connectiontransc.html), she said Hermione was the brains of the trio. Like Hermione's brains are the best of the three ("most brilliant," as JKR puts it), Harry's conscience is the best of the three.


NP. Yes but I still don't see how that equates to his instinctive moral superiority to Hermione's (hmm forgotten what you called Hermione's morality). This merely shows that Harry is the conscious of the group and that he has a fundamental sense of honor (who can disagree with that?).

Yes Hermione is the brains of the bunch, I agree. However, this doesn't equate to Harry's morality being greater then Hermione's.


Jo actually talks about Harry's conscience a lot. For instance (http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/1999/1099-connectiontransc.html):

Harry is someone who is forced, for such a young person, to make his own choices. He has very limited access to truly caring adults and he is guided by his conscience. Now, Harry makes mistakes repeatedly. Harry did things like --- he did steal the flying car. That was a very stupid thing to do, but it seemed like a great idea at the time. We’ve all been there. But, ultimately Harry is guided by his conscience.

And (http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2000/1100-garcia-dateline-2.html):

`He is vulnerable; he is frequently afraid; he has a very strong conscience, and it is my belief that with the overwhelming majority of human beings--maybe I`m a wild optimist--most people do try to do the right thing, by their own lights.`

The "instinctive" part was not Rowling, but just my observation from the books. Hermione makes her moral decisions based on rational precepts ("slavery is wrong") while Harry's are instantaneous decisions in action (eg. not allowing Pettigrew to be killed or giving the Triwizard Cup to Cedric).


Well I agree that he has great instinctive reactions and is one of the most morally driven people. The difference as you yourself have put it, is that Harry is more on the spot, whilst Hermione's is more rational. No where does it say that Harry's sense of morals is greater then Hermione's though.

[SQUIB182]

Hermione dosen't need them, she could have lots of boys :drool: , but I do agree she should grow up a little, so she can see somthing other than her books, not that I'm one to talk. :nc:

[JBaker]

How is that not an even footing? Maybe you don't like the way they interact, but you must admit they do and always have done as equals.

Well then I suppose Harry and Hermione do act on equal footing, since Harry does talk to Hermione, does fight with her and does compromise with her, when it matters most.

[delemtri]

Hermione dosen't need them, she could have lots of boys, but I do agree she should grow up a little, so she can see somthing other than her books, not that I'm one to talk.

Could she really? Like who - besides Harry, Ron, and Krum? (Fine, and Neville.)

Well then I suppose Harry and Hermione do act on equal footing, since Harry does talk to Hermione, does fight with her and does compromise with her, when it matters most.

No, they don't fight. Harry yells and Hermione gets scared and pacifies him. Then she nags him and he gets vexed and pacifies her.

[JBaker]

Could she really? Like who - besides Harry, Ron, and Krum? (Fine, and Neville.)



No, they don't fight. Harry yells and Hermione gets scared and pacifies him. Then she nags him and he gets vexed and pacifies her.

Well, then I suppose that's better then fighting and not resolving their fights. Thanks for the clarification.

[delemtri]

Well, then I suppose that's better then fighting and not resolving their fights. Thanks for the clarification.

I don't think it's better. I think it shows inequality.

Well I agree that he has great instinctive reactions and is one of the most morally driven people. The difference as you yourself have put it, is that Harry is more on the spot, whilst Hermione's is more rational. No where does it say that Harry's sense of morals is greater then Hermione's though.

Says it implicitly: Harry's is natural, like his Quidditch ability, and hers is learned.

[Polychrome]

It's also worth noting that we don't have an opportunity in the boggart scene to see Harry react to Ginny again...hmm, wonder why JKR doesn't want us to see that yet. :evil:

Interesting take on this scene. Everybody's always yapping about how because people are shown in this scene it means they're gonna die. Anybody ever consider that who ISN'T in the scene just may be more important? A different foreshadowing of it's own? :evil:

Just for now, I'd like to give my own take on what this scene is trying to portray, though. I know there's a lot of explanations, but I think mine's the best and simplest.

As far as the people in this scene, I think the real foreshadowing was about Mrs. Weasley's past. We know that her relatives were killed during the first war, but do we know anything else?

Notice the pattern. When we are introduced to various characters' greatest fears, we often learn something about them. With Harry, we learned about the day that his parents were killed. With Lupin, we learned about the werewolf. Ron we learned about before the Boggart. With Hermione, we're introduced to her insecurity.

Something about Mrs. Weasley's past is coming up.

Yeah, I already know Heron shippers expect Harry's death...


Excuse me? That's not very nice, as many Heron shippers also ship Harry with somebody.

Just because we generally agree that Harry's love interest is a mystery does not make us believe he's lunchmeat.

Heck, I'm convinced Harry will live at least long enough to contribute to the gene pool. :angel:

[delemtri]

Notice the pattern. When we are introduced to various characters' greatest fears, we often learn something about them. With Harry, we learned about the day that his parents were killed. With Lupin, we learned about the werewolf. Ron we learned about before the Boggart. With Hermione, we're introduced to her insecurity.

There's probably a thread on this, but I wonder what Dumbledore would see.

[JBaker]

I don't think it's better. I think it shows inequality.



Says it implicitly: Harry's is natural, like his Quidditch ability, and hers is learned.

How does it show inequality? One explodes, and the other calms them down. I think it shows rather well the positive effects on each other (or to put it as others have, it shows that they can handle each other).

But how does it amke it superior? I think her attitude towards Buckbeak shows quite clearly that she has natural morality as well (willing to defend the innocent).

[delemtri]

Excuse me? That's not very nice, as many Heron shippers also ship Harry with somebody.

Just because we generally agree that Harry's love interest is a mystery does not make us believe he's lunchmeat.

Heck, I'm convinced Harry will live at least long enough to contribute to the gene pool. :angel:

I love how it is the Herons being made out as Harry-haters when the Harmonians have clearly stated that they see many of his definitive characteristics as problems for Hermione to fix.

How does it show inequality? One explodes, and the other calms them down. I think it shows rather well the positive effects on each other (or to put it as others have, it shows that they can handle each other).

But how does it amke it superior? I think her attitude towards Buckbeak shows quite clearly that she has natural morality as well (willing to defend the innocent).

No, the one who explodes is Harry and Hermione calms him down. Hermione then pokes at him (physically in some scenes) and he brushes her off. It doesn't show that they can handle each other. It shows that they put each other in awkward situations where they need to change the way they act naturally.

Harry's morality is superior plainly because it makes Harry's morals his foundation for his learning and Hermione's learning her foundation for her morals. She did good with Buckbeak, sure. But Harry's power is his heart, as Rowling says, his ability to make the right choices.

[SQUIB182]

It sais in GOF that as people walked past Hermione the threw looks of jelosy, and why would they do that if she wasn't compatition?? :huh: Even Malfoy :love: couldn't find an insult to throw at her.I rest my case :evil:

[Polychrome]

There's probably a thread on this, but I wonder what Dumbledore would see.

Well, seeing as we haven't seen his boggart...

I get the strangest feeling that what he sees in the mirror of Erised has something to do with Harry though.

I think it's icky. Harry wants a family. Not his friends become his family.

Yes, and it's icky that a good friend of mine is now my sister's husband I'll bet.

We need to remember who Harry considers his "real" family to be. Generally his friends, but most importantly, the Weasleys.

[delemtri]

It sais in GOF that as people walked past Hermione the threw looks of jelosy, and why would they do that if she wasn't copatition?? Even Malfoy couldn't find an insult to throw at her.I rest my case

After she spent three hours preparing. The reason everyone was stunned because she looked beautiful *as opposed to the way she normally looked.* This is more or less canon.

Now Ron is empirically unsuccessful with girls. I believe that we can safely say that in the trio Harry is the only one with any sort of romantic "mass appeal."

Well, seeing as we haven't seen his boggart...

I get the strangest feeling that what he sees in the mirror of Erised has something to do with Harry though.

In the mirror he sees Harry... Dead! Just like we do! Dun dun dun...

[JBaker]

No, the one who explodes is Harry and Hermione calms him down. Hermione then pokes at him (physically in some scenes) and he brushes her off. It doesn't show that they can handle each other. It shows that they put each other in awkward situations where they need to change the way they act naturally.


I disagree. How is it not handling Harry well when Hermione is able to calm him down? Not only that, but to get him to accept her request twice after he explodes? And even to the point of him acknowledging her loyalty and solidarity?


Harry's morality is superior plainly because it makes Harry's morals his foundation for his learning and Hermione's learning her foundation for her morals. She did good with Buckbeak, sure. But Harry's power is his heart, as Rowling says, his ability to make the right choices.

So are you saying that Hermione's morals came from learning, that she wasn't with morals from the beginning? If so, then why is it that she is willing to help Buckbeak? If you look at the House Elf enslavement, how is that her learning of her morals?

[Moonstruck]

No, the one who explodes is Harry and Hermione calms him down. Hermione then pokes at him (physically in some scenes) and he brushes her off. It doesn't show that they can handle each other. It shows that they put each other in awkward situations where they need to change the way they act naturally.

You are excluding the scenes where Hermione calms Harry down and Harry compromises with her (when he feels the best course of action is to go). That shows their equality: they give, they take in equal amounts.

You also haven't answered JBaker's question.

why is it that he is so adamant in getting her support? Why is he so desperate to get her help, that he even willingly compromises on a plan (even though at that moment, he thought Sirius was being tortured). He then even acknowledges her solidarity and loyalty.

Why does Harry always try to get Hermione on his side? Why does Harry want Hermione's help if she is against him all the time? Why not just go get Sirius and let Hermione go on? As JBaker pointed out, Harry even compromises when all he wants to do is get to Sirius. Why go through such lengths to get Hermione to agree with him?

Harry's morality is superior plainly because it makes Harry's morals his foundation for his learning and Hermione's learning her foundation for her morals. She did good with Buckbeak, sure. But Harry's power is his heart, as Rowling says, his ability to make the right choices.

So Hermione's parents had no hand in molding her morals?

Yes, and it's icky that a good friend of mine is now my sister's husband I'll bet.

We need to remember who Harry considers his "real" family to be. Generally his friends, but most importantly, the Weasleys.

Look, where I come from, nearly everyone knows each other and is related to each other. My dad's parents knew my mom's parents. There is a guy on TV who does car comericals where I leave who is my third cousin. My mom thinks we may be related to an important civil war general. So yeah, I feel that friends growing up together and becoming family is icky.

[delemtri]

I disagree. How is it not handling Harry well when Hermione is able to calm him down? Not only that, but to get him to accept her request twice after he explodes? And even to the point of him acknowledging her loyalty and solidarity?

It's not Hermione's natural state, as I said. I didn't say she didn't handle Harry well; I said it was unnatural. Do you disagree with that, or do you only disagree with your misinterpretation of my post?

So are you saying that Hermione's morals came from learning, that she wasn't with morals from the beginning? If so, then why is it that she is willing to help Buckbeak? If you look at the House Elf enslavement, how is that her learning of her morals?

Don't even *talk* about SPEW. That's another one of her silly little projects and we see in OOTP that she actually tries to trick the elves into getting their freedom which they don't want. That's not moral; that's imposing her morality on the elves.

You have given me two examples versus the entire five books we have right now of Harry doing almost nothing but helping other people. Sure, she helped Buckbeak. Great. I'll remember to give her a gold star.

[Angua9]

NP. Yes but I still don't see how that equates to his instinctive moral superiority to Hermione's (hmm forgotten what you called Hermione's morality). This merely shows that Harry is the conscious of the group and that he has a fundamental sense of honor (who can disagree with that?).

Yes Hermione is the brains of the bunch, I agree. However, this doesn't equate to Harry's morality being greater then Hermione's.
That is clearly implied in Harry being the conscience of the group. If Hermione's morality was greater than Harry's she'd be the conscience of the group.

[delemtri]

You are excluding the scenes where Hermione calms Harry down and Harry compromises with her (when he feels the best course of action is to go). That shows their equality: they give, they take in equal amounts.

You also haven't answered JBaker's question.

What question? And they don't give and take in equal amounts. Harry yells and then Hermione coaxes him into doing what she wants. This seems profoundly unhealthy to me.

So Hermione's parents had no hand in molding her morals?

That sounds like learning to me. Your question proves my point; Harry had a ridiculously strong sense of morals *without any parental guidance.*

[SQUIB182]

Poor Hermy-own, I think she relates to the elves, but has a hurt she is triing to cover, so she is triing to help, but can't use her sincearity, because it would be like picking a scab, it would start to bleed.



Also, what about Rons morality? Why is it always Harry, Harry, Harry, Hermy, Hermy, Hermy. How about a little rope for Ronald :huh:

[Moonstruck]

What question? And they don't give and take in equal amounts. Harry yells and then Hermione coaxes him into doing what she wants. This seems profoundly unhealthy to me.

I gave you his question.

Harry doesn't have to listen to her. He can go ahead and do what he wants. The key thing is that he did not. He compromised even when he did not want to.

That sounds like learning to me. Your question proves my point; Harry had a ridiculously strong sense of morals *without any parental guidance.*

There is something called Nature vs. Nuture. Harry's morals are from nature. Hermione's is nuture. Neither are greater than the other.

[JBaker]

It's not Hermione's natural state, as I said. I didn't say she didn't handle Harry well; I said it was unnatural. Do you disagree with that, or do you only disagree with your misinterpretation of my post?


I'm sorry but I don't understand what you mean by unnatural. How is Hermione calming Harry not a natural state? With what are you comparing her state with (her natural state). I'm curious what you think of her natural state as?



Don't even *talk* about SPEW. That's another one of her silly little projects and we see in OOTP that she actually tries to trick the elves into getting their freedom which they don't want. That's not moral; that's imposing her morality on the elves.


No, I disagree for the most part. SPEW is an excellent example of her natural morality. Her actions show a lack of understanding on how to proceed on the topic, but the underlying theme of slavery and her negative reaction to their enslavement shows a natural morality that wasn't learned.


You have given me two examples versus the entire five books we have right now of Harry doing almost nothing but helping other people. Sure, she helped Buckbeak. Great. I'll remember to give her a gold star.

She helps Harry throughtout the five books, even risking her life for Sirius. Not at all just two examples. Or are you going to ignore her part in the whole storyline, where she time and again stands by helping Harry?

[PrettyVeela]

Ahh but you forget! Rowling almost slipped up and said Ron's girlfriend, not Harry's best female friend!
(From the Diane Rehm Show)
I really like Washington because in Washington I've met the highest number of people ever who've said don't kill Hermione whose Ron's, um, who's Harry's best female friend and I have to say most people just don't really care too much about Hermione in the sense that they think she's too clever and she'll get through somehow.
Har har, I have you now!

xray

Xray, LOL! :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[delemtri]

I'm sorry but I don't understand what you mean by unnatural. How is Hermione calming Harry not a natural state? With what are you comparing her state with (her natural state). I'm curious what you think of her natural state as?

Nagging. That's what she normally does.

No, I disagree for the most part. SPEW is an excellent example of her natural morality. Her actions show a lack of understanding on how to proceed on the topic, but the underlying theme of slavery and her negative reaction to their enslavement shows a natural morality that wasn't learned.

Not taught by her parents, as your shipmate Moonstruck accidentally suggested?

She helps Harry throughtout the five books, even risking her life for Sirius. Not at all just two examples. Or are you going to ignore her part in the whole storyline, where she time and again stands by helping Harry?

Sure, she helps Harry, and even Ron, Hagrid, and Neville. The MOM doesn't count because she didn't think she was risking her life. When does she help people because she thinks it is *right* and not because they're her friends - as Harry notably helps, for example, Cedric in GOF?

[JBaker]

That is clearly implied in Harry being the conscience of the group. If Hermione's morality was greater than Harry's she'd be the conscience of the group.

So are you saying that her attitude towards house elves, buckbeak, Sirius and Harry in general is all inferior to Harry's morality?

The difference (and why Harry is labelled the conscience of the group) is that Harry's morality has the greater impact (he is saving lives after all).

[delemtri]

I gave you his question.

Harry doesn't have to listen to her. He can go ahead and do what he wants. The key thing is that he did not. He compromised even when he did not want to.

He did compromise with the MOM and Sirius. That doesn't prove that she can handle him; it proves that he'll accept a delay because her help is useful.

There is something called Nature vs. Nuture. Harry's morals are from nature. Hermione's is nuture. Neither are greater than the other.

Yup. Harry's are. Asserting that they're not won't disprove the canon, from the books and from JKR's quote above.

So are you saying that her attitude towards house elves, buckbeak, Sirius and Harry in general is all inferior to Harry's morality?

You got it!

Harry has what is called "generalized benevolence" - he's just a good person point-blank. Hermione is very nice and helpful to her friends and likes to start little projects when she sees something she thinks is wrong, but sometimes she just doesn't treat people well - Luna in OOTP, Lavender in POA, etc.

[JBaker]

What question? And they don't give and take in equal amounts. Harry yells and then Hermione coaxes him into doing what she wants. This seems profoundly unhealthy to me.


No what she wanted was for Harry not to go at all, because it was a trap. IN the end, she settled for going with Harry (knowing full well that it was atrap, as long as Harry first checked Grimmauld Place). So it's not Hermione coaxing Harry into doing what she wants, it's about compromising in that scene. How is that profoundly unhealthy?


That sounds like learning to me. Your question proves my point; Harry had a ridiculously strong sense of morals *without any parental guidance.*

And yet what do we know about Hermione and her morals and how they developed? And I disagree about Harry. Yes he didn't have any parents to guide him, he had the Dursleys. They are what he doesn't like. After all, his first encounter with Malfoy shows Harry growing to dislike him because he reminded Harry of Dudley.

[delemtri]

No what she wanted was for Harry not to go at all, because it was a trap. IN the end, she settled for going with Harry (knowing full well that it was atrap, as long as Harry first checked Grimmauld Place). So it's not Hermione coaxing Harry into doing what she wants, it's about compromising in that scene. How is that profoundly unhealthy?

Hermione "knew full well it was a trap"? Where do you get this?

And yet what do we know about Hermione and her morals and how they developed? And I disagree about Harry. Yes he didn't have any parents to guide him, he had the Dursleys. They are what he doesn't like. After all, his first encounter with Malfoy shows Harry growing to dislike him because he reminded Harry of Dudley.

So Harry only helps people because he hates the Dursleys? Are you seriously saying this?

[Moonstruck]

He did compromise with the MOM and Sirius. That doesn't prove that she can handle him; it proves that he'll accept a delay because her help is useful.

Sorry, but I believe it does. It shows how much Hermione affects Harry. He's willing to accept a delay despite, to his knowledge, knowing his godfather is being tortured. It also shows that he wants her to be on his side. Why else would he stop arguing with her to go with her plan to prove Sirius was at Grimmauld Place or not?

Yup. Harry's are. Asserting that they're not won't disprove the canon, from the books and from JKR's quote above.

Does that mean that Harry's morals are greater than Ron's?

[delemtri]

Sorry, but I believe it does. It shows how much Hermione affects Harry. He's willing to accept a delay despite, to his knowledge, knowing his godfather is being tortured. It also shows that he wants her to be on his side. Why else would he stop arguing with her to go with her plan to prove Sirius was at Grimmauld Place or not?

I think it shows how much Hermione's statement about the "saving people thing" affected Harry. It does show that he wants her to be on his side - her and Ron, and nobody else.

Does that mean that Harry's morals are greater than Ron's?

Naturally.

[JBaker]

Nagging. That's what she normally does.


So she is nagging him when he has his fight with Ron? She nags him when they meet up at Grimmauld Place? I'm sorry but to say that her natural state in dealing with Harry is nagging is to ignore most of their interactions. And when she does nag, what's it over? Occlumency, studies. Important things (one was even critical to Harry, which he ignored and later paid a heavy price for it).


Not taught by her parents, as your shipmate Moonstruck accidentally suggested?


Well Moonstruck has her own interpretations, but as I pointed out, we don't know. We simply don't know her background to well.


Sure, she helps Harry, and even Ron, Hagrid, and Neville. The MOM doesn't count because she didn't think she was risking her life. When does she help people because she thinks it is *right* and not because they're her friends - as Harry notably helps, for example, Cedric in GOF?

Sure, she helps Harry, and even Ron, Hagrid, and Neville. How is this not her morality in action? This is her natural state, to help others.

It does count because she herself pointed out that it was a trap. It also counts because she was offering to go with him, to do whatever it took to help him rescue Sirius.

[Moonstruck]

I think it shows how much Hermione's statement about the "saving people thing" affected Harry. It does show that he wants her to be on his side - her and Ron, and nobody else.

Mind showing where in the text the statement affected Harry?


Naturally.

So. Harry's morals are greater than Hermione's morals

Harry's morals are greater than Ron's morals

Hermione's smarts are greater than Harry's smarts

Hermione's smarts are greater than Ron's smarts

Wow! What's Ron greater at? He's at the bottom of the trio food chain!

[JBaker]

You got it!

Harry has what is called "generalized benevolence" - he's just a good person point-blank. Hermione is very nice and helpful to her friends and likes to start little projects when she sees something she thinks is wrong, but sometimes she just doesn't treat people well - Luna in OOTP, Lavender in POA, etc.

Oh I agree that she can be quite the cold person to other people, but this doesn't diminish her sense of right and wrong. Her sense of right and wrong are just different to Harry's.

[delemtri]

Oh I agree that she can be quite the cold person to other people, but this doesn't diminish her sense of right and wrong. Her sense of right and wrong are just different to Harry's.

Same for Voldemort, eh? I love moral relativism, but JKR doesn't.

So. Harry's morals are greater than Hermione's morals

Harry's morals are greater than Ron's morals

Hermione's smarts are greater than Harry's smarts

Hermione's smarts are greater than Ron's smarts

Wow! What's Ron greater at? He's at the bottom of the trio food chain!

Just like Harmony's been suggesting forever - though some of them, like you, seem to prefer it with Harry and Ron on an equal footing and Hermione above both of them.

Let's stop building strawmen and actually address each other's arguments, eh?

[SQUIB182]

Do any of you think this is off the topic, or is that just me?

I think that she is moral, and all, but what dose that have to do with anything??
i thing it would be an exalent thread, but not in the LOVE selections!!!!

What about Ron, what about Ginny, Luna, Nevil, even Draco!!!!!

Start a new thread.

[Moonstruck]

Just like Harmony's been suggesting forever - though some of them, like you, seem to prefer it with Harry and Ron on an equal footing and Hermione above both of them.

Let's stop building strawmen and actually address each other's arguments, eh?

Sorry, but that's what I'm getting from your arguements. What is Ron greater at? What's his role in the trio that is greater than Harry and Hermione's? It's a simple question.

[delemtri]

Start a new thread.

No.

[JBaker]

Hermione "knew full well it was a trap"? Where do you get this?


When they were having their argument. She told him that his saving people thing was something that Voldemort was possibly exploiting (and gave Ginny and the COS as an example of it). She is constantly pointing out that Voldemort could be tricking Harry because it doesn't make sense. She even makes reference to occlumency and why he should have learned it. So she knows that Voldemort is trying to trick Harry into going to the MOM.


So Harry only helps people because he hates the Dursleys? Are you seriously saying this?

No, I'm saying that the Dursleys are what helped shape his character, his choices. Harry hates the Dursleys, and grows a dislike for anyone like them i.e Malfoy.

[delemtri]

Sorry, but that's what I'm getting from your arguements. What is Ron greater at? What's his role in the trio that is greater than Harry and Hermione's? It's a simple question.

Many people have suggested that Ron's skill at chess indicates a role of a strategist of sorts. I'm not sure why you think I have a lower view of Ron than you do; unless you think Ron is the most moral of the group?

[Angua9]

So are you saying that her attitude towards house elves, buckbeak, Sirius and Harry in general is all inferior to Harry's morality?
Yes. Harry's morality is truly extraordinary. That's why he is the HERO.

The difference (and why Harry is labelled the conscience of the group) is that Harry's morality has the greater impact (he is saving lives after all).
No, I don't think so. Hermione isn't labelled the brains of the group because her brains have more impact -- she's labeled that way because she's smarter. Harry is labeled the concience of the group because he has a deeper morality. Look, for instance, at the Shrieking Shack scene:

"Ron... haven't I been a good friend... a good pet? You won't let them
kill me, Ron, will you... you're on my side, aren't you.

But Ron was staring at Pettigrew with the utmost revulsion.

"I let you sleep in my bed!" he said.

"Kind boy... kind master..." Pettigrew crawled toward Ron "You won't let
them do it.... I was your rat.... I was a good pet...."

"If you made a better rat than a human, it's not much to boast about,
Peter," said Black harshly. Ron, going still paler with pain, wrenched
his broken leg out of Pettigrew's reach. Pettigrew turned on his knees,
staggered forward, and seized the hem of Hermione's robes.

"Sweet girl... clever girl... you -- you won't let them.... Help me...."

Hermione pulled her robes out of Pettigrew's clutching hands and backed
away against the wall, looking horrified.

Pettigrew knelt, trembling uncontrollably, and-turned his head slowly
toward Harry.

"Harry... Harry... you look just like your father... just like him...."

"HOW DARE YOU SPEAK TO HARRY?" roared Black. "HOW DARE YOU FACE HIM? HOW
DARE YOU TALK ABOUT JAMES IN FRONT OF HIM?"

"Harry," whispered Pettigrew, shuffling toward him, hands outstretched.
"Harry, James wouldn't have wanted me killed.... James would have
understood, Harry... he would have shown me mercy..."

Both Black and Lupin strode forward, seized Pettigrew's shoulders, and
threw him backward onto the floor. He sat there, twitching with terror,
staring up at them.

...Black and Lupin stood shoulder to shoulder, wands raised.

"You should have realized," said Lupin quietly, "if Voldemort didn't
kill you, we would. Good-bye, Peter."

Hermione covered her face with her hands and turned to the wall.

"NO!" Harry yelled. He ran forward, placing himself in front Pettigrew,
facing the wands. "You can't kill him," he said breathlessly. "You
can't."

Ron pulls his leg away from Pettigrew.

Hermione backs away, pulling her robes out of his reach and then turns her back and refuses to look.

But Harry throws his body in front of the man who murdered his parents.


Think of the end of Book 1, when both Ron and Hermione thought Harry shouldn't go past Fluffy to stop "Snape." Think of the Second Task, when both Ron and Hermione thought Harry was silly for trying to help all four hostages. Harry is the hero -- he is on a higher moral level than his loyal sidekicks.

[delemtri]

When they were having their argument. She told him that his saving people thing was something that Voldemort was possibly exploiting (and gave Ginny and the COS as an example of it). She is constantly pointing out that Voldemort could be tricking Harry because it doesn't make sense. She even makes reference to occlumency and why he should have learned it. So she knows that Voldemort is trying to trick Harry into going to the MOM.

That was before Harry talked to Kreacher. You claimed that Hermione went to the MOM knowing that it was a trap. This would be after the conversation. Where do you have any canon to back up the assertion that Hermione still thought it was a trap at that point?

No, I'm saying that the Dursleys are what helped shape his character, his choices. Harry hates the Dursleys, and grows a dislike for anyone like them i.e Malfoy.

Are you kidding me?!! Harry's morality isn't based on dislike - it's based on *love*! As we see over and over in GOF and OOTP and every single book, over and over and over again, it's the overriding theme of Harry's character throughout! Throughout! The entire series!

[JBaker]

Same for Voldemort, eh? I love moral relativism, but JKR doesn't.


No, Voldemort is cold and murderous to pretty much everyone, except those that fear him.

[delemtri]

No, Voldemort is cold and murderous to pretty much everyone, except those that fear him.

Yup, that's morality that's different, like Hermione's.

[PrettyVeela]

So are you saying that her attitude towards house elves, buckbeak, Sirius and Harry in general is all inferior to Harry's morality?

The difference (and why Harry is labelled the conscience of the group) is that Harry's morality has the greater impact (he is saving lives after all).


And what are Hermione and Ron doing while Harry's saving lives? Just being next door neighbors during Harry's "saving people" thingy? :huh:

Harry is the hero but give R/Hr some credit. :eyebrows:

I love Hermione but sometimes her intentions, no matter how good they are, is wrong. She's trying to do what's right but she needs to stop and listen sometimes instead of just DOING.

There are some things in the books Hermione has said and done that made me cringe or roll my eyes. I think that many readers look past these things because they feel like her morals are the best of the three and her intentions are good so what's the problem? A LOT, IMO.

[mrs_bombadil]

I have read quotes on at least 2 occasions where JKR talks about Hermione developing a political conscience. To develop is not usually to be born with. Aren't there several harmonians who suggest she was inspired by Harry freeing Dobby? Harry naturally knew, without having to make it a crusade, that is was wrong for Dobby to be enslaved by the Malfoys and he simply acted, probably without much thought!

[Moonstruck]

Many people have suggested that Ron's skill at chess indicates a role of a strategist of sorts. I'm not sure why you think I have a lower view of Ron than you do; unless you think Ron is the most moral of the group?

But has JK pointed out Ron's role?

It seems that (and correct me if I'm wrong) that people are pointing out that because Harry having a greater moral than Hermione, they should not get together. Well, if that is the case, then Ron having something greater over Hermione (and Hermione's smarts greater over Ron's) is a reason for them not getting together.

Sound fair to you?

[delemtri]

I have read quotes on at least 2 occasions where JKR talks about Hermione developing a political conscience. To develop is not usually to be born with. Aren't there several harmonians who suggest she was inspired by Harry freeing Dobby? Harry naturally knew, without having to make it a crusade, that is was wrong for Dobby to be enslaved by the Malfoys and he simply acted, probably without much thought!

A very good point - remember that first scene with Dobby, right at the beginning of COS? "Like an equal," Dobby says.

But has JK pointed out Ron's role?

It seems that (and correct me if I'm wrong) that people are pointing out that because Harry having a greater moral than Hermione, they should not get together. Well, if that is the case, then Ron having something greater over Hermione (and Hermione's smarts greater over Ron's) is a reason for them not getting together.

Sound fair to you?

I never said Harry having a greater moral strength than Hermione meant they shouldn't get together. I'm simply arguing that he has that greater moral strength.

[Moonstruck]

I never said Harry having a greater moral strength than Hermione meant they shouldn't get together. I'm simply arguing that he has that greater moral strength.

Then why are we debating it? ;)

[mrs_bombadil]

Another question...why would does Hermione quickly, and for fairly petty reasons, dislike Fleur and Luna? Hermione was an insecure outsider when she first got to Hogwarts so why is she more empathetic to far-from-home Fleur and misfit Luna?

[JBaker]

Yes. Harry's morality is truly extraordinary. That's why he is the HERO.


He's the hero because he is willing to go to extraordinary lengths to help people. Ron does it with respect to protecting Harry from Sirius (putting himself in front of Harry. He does it with regards to putting Harry before his brother Percy.

Hermione does it by putting Harry, above her studies (as she said, books and cleverness, there are more important things like friendship and bravery). I like to think that they are all heros, even if their roles aren't the same.


No, I don't think so. Hermione isn't labelled the brains of the group because her brains have more impact -- she's labeled that way because she's smarter. Harry is labeled the concience of the group because he has a deeper morality. Look, for instance, at the Shrieking Shack scene:

"Ron... haven't I been a good friend... a good pet? You won't let them
kill me, Ron, will you... you're on my side, aren't you.

But Ron was staring at Pettigrew with the utmost revulsion.

"I let you sleep in my bed!" he said.

"Kind boy... kind master..." Pettigrew crawled toward Ron "You won't let
them do it.... I was your rat.... I was a good pet...."

"If you made a better rat than a human, it's not much to boast about,
Peter," said Black harshly. Ron, going still paler with pain, wrenched
his broken leg out of Pettigrew's reach. Pettigrew turned on his knees,
staggered forward, and seized the hem of Hermione's robes.

"Sweet girl... clever girl... you -- you won't let them.... Help me...."

Hermione pulled her robes out of Pettigrew's clutching hands and backed
away against the wall, looking horrified.

Pettigrew knelt, trembling uncontrollably, and-turned his head slowly
toward Harry.

"Harry... Harry... you look just like your father... just like him...."

"HOW DARE YOU SPEAK TO HARRY?" roared Black. "HOW DARE YOU FACE HIM? HOW
DARE YOU TALK ABOUT JAMES IN FRONT OF HIM?"

"Harry," whispered Pettigrew, shuffling toward him, hands outstretched.
"Harry, James wouldn't have wanted me killed.... James would have
understood, Harry... he would have shown me mercy..."

Both Black and Lupin strode forward, seized Pettigrew's shoulders, and
threw him backward onto the floor. He sat there, twitching with terror,
staring up at them.

...Black and Lupin stood shoulder to shoulder, wands raised.

"You should have realized," said Lupin quietly, "if Voldemort didn't
kill you, we would. Good-bye, Peter."

Hermione covered her face with her hands and turned to the wall.

"NO!" Harry yelled. He ran forward, placing himself in front Pettigrew,
facing the wands. "You can't kill him," he said breathlessly. "You
can't."

Ron pulls his leg away from Pettigrew.

Hermione backs away, pulling her robes out of his reach and then turns her back and refuses to look.

But Harry throws his body in front of the man who murdered his parents.


Think of the end of Book 1, when both Ron and Hermione thought Harry shouldn't go past Fluffy to stop "Snape." Think of the Second Task, when both Ron and Hermione thought Harry was silly for trying to help all four hostages. Harry is the hero -- he is on a higher moral level than his loyal sidekicks.

Oh I agree with these parts. The underwater thing is quite an interesting thing to look at. You see, it shows that Harry is so blinded to the true situation that he tries to help the others. The others knew that there was no danger (and Harry should have known) because Dumbledore wouldn't allow it. It doesn't show that they didn't care any less over it, just that they knew the situation.

As for the first time, they told him to go to the teachers. Harry couldn't allow Snape to get the stone at all costs. Yes in this I have to agree, but I do like to point out that they still went with him, still risked their lives as well.

[delemtri]

Then why are we debating it? ;)

Because somebody disagreed with me when I was right. Further back than that I can't remember.

He's the hero because he is willing to go to extraordinary lengths to help people.

No. He's the hero because he's willing to go to extraordinary lengths to help *anyone.* Ron and Hermione stick to helping their friends (and in Hermione's case, being a girl scout).

[Angua9]

But has JK pointed out Ron's role?

It seems that (and correct me if I'm wrong) that people are pointing out that because Harry having a greater moral than Hermione, they should not get together. Well, if that is the case, then Ron having something greater over Hermione (and Hermione's smarts greater over Ron's) is a reason for them not getting together.

Sound fair to you?
Errr... no. I don't see anybody saying that Harry and Hermione shouldn't get together because Harry has a more profound morality.

To answer your question, I have never seen a quote from JKR saying "Ron is the ______ of the group." But it seems pretty clear to me what his role is:

Hermione = Head
Ron = Heart
Harry = Soul

[Moonstruck]

Because somebody disagreed with me when I was right. Further back than that I can't remember.

Sorry, but I don't think you are right. I think all the trio are equal. Harry's conscience, Hermione's smarts are merely their strengths that they bring to the trio. It does not mean that one strength is greater than the other. When their strengths are brought together, the trio is greater than a single person.

No one person has a strength that is greater than another person's. Everyone has equal strengths and I do not believe that JK's quote implied that she believe that another person's strength is greater than another's.

[OhhhMacadamia]

Yes. Harry's morality is truly extraordinary. That's why he is the HERO...
Ron pulls his leg away from Pettigrew.
Hermione backs away, pulling her robes out of his reach and then turns her back and refuses to look.
But Harry throws his body in front of the man who murdered his parents.
Think of the end of Book 1, when both Ron and Hermione thought Harry shouldn't go past Fluffy to stop "Snape." Think of the Second Task, when both Ron and Hermione thought Harry was silly for trying to help all four hostages. Harry is the hero -- he is on a higher moral level than his loyal sidekicks.Wow. That's a great Hero essay. Good job.

Of course they all achieve acts of heroism, but really, is this not "Harry Potter and the..."?

I love Hermione but sometimes her intentions, no matter how good they are, is wrong. She's trying to do what's right but she needs to stop and listen sometimes instead of just DOING. Hermione refuses to understand that the House-elves don't want to be freed! She doesn't even listen when Hagrid says that she'd "be doing them an unkindness."

[mrs_bombadil]

ETA: I think the reason some of us are debating this is because some of the reasons Hermione is matched with Harry is because they are viewed (perhaps painted) as 2 superior individuals in just about every way and therefore nobody else is "good enough" for them except each other.

In that scenario Hermione is heroine and not just sidekick; Harry is more intelligent than Ron, etc.

So what does Ron bring? Ron brings heart, generosity, humor. He is funny and Harry's best friend. JKR has mentioned valuing friendship and humor above just about everything else. Harry may need Hermione's brains in his life right now but he wants Ron...he "chooses" Ron over and over and that's good enough for me.

(I added that to an earlier post but things are moving so fast now that I decided to reposition it).

[JBaker]

That was before Harry talked to Kreacher. You claimed that Hermione went to the MOM knowing that it was a trap. This would be after the conversation. Where do you have any canon to back up the assertion that Hermione still thought it was a trap at that point?


Yes, it was before they talked to Kreacher. Harry was seriously distressed and wanted to go there. The evidence is in the argument beforehand. You see, she made the promise to Harry to go with him, to do whatever it took to help Sirius if he wasn't there at Grimmauld Place. She pointed out that it was illogical for Voldemort to be there with Sirius at the MOM. She was also pointing out that Voldemort knew Harry, that he would try something like this (she gave the example of Ginny to show it).

So she knew it was a trap all along. She knew that if Sirius was there at the MOM, as unlikely as she thought it was, it was to lure Harry there.



Are you kidding me?!! Harry's morality isn't based on dislike - it's based on *love*! As we see over and over in GOF and OOTP and every single book, over and over and over again, it's the overriding theme of Harry's character throughout! Throughout! The entire series!

I never said it was based on dislike. I said that the Dursleys helped shaped Harry's choices, his morality. They gave him an example of what not to like, hence why his first encounter with Malfoy has Harry grow to dislike him, because he was reminded of Dudley.

Love is his power, I agree. It helps shape his actions and his beliefs, but it's not the only factor in his moral development.

[delemtri]

Sorry, but I don't think you are right. I think all the trio are equal. Harry's conscience, Hermione's smarts are merely their strengths that they bring to the trio. It does not mean that one strength is greater than the other. When their strengths are brought together, the trio is greater than a single person.

No one person has a strength that is greater than another person's. Everyone has equal strengths and I do not believe that JK's quote implied that she believe that another person's strength is greater than another's.

I wasn't implying that either. Now you're merging the two arguments - the inequality during Harry's fighting "with" (more like "at") Hermione and Harry's superior morality.

[IceKat55]

Again I have to disagree. Who helped Harry out of the room at christmas? Who was it that got him to calm down at the beginning? Who got him to calm down when talking about the D.A? Who was it that was able to get him to check upp on Sirius at Grimmauld Place before the MOM battle? These are all evidence to show that she can handle capslock Harry.

Yes but why is it that he is so adamant in getting her support? Why is he so desperate to get her help, that he even willingly compromises on a plan (even though at that moment, he thought Sirius was being tortured). He then even acknowledges her solidarity and loyalty.
Of course Harry wants her support. Of course Hermione helps him. This is not in dispute, they have a very good friendship, they support each other.

However, for all the reasons I stated, they are not compatible on a romantic level. There's a huge difference when transitioning into a sharing partnership, and Harry & Hermione have too many issues (granted, at present time) to have a successful one.

Yes he lies to her, and can't even look her in the eyes when doing it (perhaps feeling shame from it). Yes in GOF he does but when in OotP does he think of her voice as shrilly? And I disagree that he won't change at all from what he is.
As I said - - not compatible on a romantic level. However, I realize that what is obvious to some, based on interpretation, or bringing their own real-life experiences into their interpretation (as I am), will not be so obvious to others.

Harry lying to her (whether he feels bad about it or not is irrelevant, the fact is, he feels compelled to do it, and that's not healthy), Harry avoiding her and tuning her out in order to avoid confrontations, Harry being so annoyed with little aspects of her character, all add up to one answer. Not. Romantically. Compatible. :)

I have already pointed out that Ron gets annoyed and irritated by Hermione as well. Hermione gets annoyed and irritated by Ron and both end up arguing with each other. This is handling, when they either shut down each other', when they argue and become annoyed enough not to talk with one another? Not at all an even footing as you put it.
Toe-to-toe, yes, I call that even footing. As I've said before - - if Ron or Hermione, either or both, wanted to back down from one another in their silly bickering - - don't you think either or both are smart enough to do so?

They spur each other on, and on some level, I believe they enjoy their bickering 'competitions'. They've only had two fights. Cat/Rat in PoA and the Yule Brawl in GoF. And they've come out friends each time.

Most all couples bicker & fight, some of them more than others, and that's not unhealthy, as long as there is a balance to it. Ron & Hermione can handle each other. They're perfectly balanced, and they're learning more & more how far they can go with each other, which buttons they can push, etc. Even though, granted, they have some confused feelings/issues between them at present time, they are still on very even footing. Once the nature of their feelings are revealed & resolved, we'll see a drastic change between them. :)

[OhhhMacadamia]

So what does Ron bring? Ron brings heart, generosity, humor. He is funny and Harry's best friend. JKR has mentioned valuing friendship and humor above just about everything else. Harry may need Hermione's brains in his life right now but he wants Ron...he "chooses" Ron over and over and that's good enough for me.
I would want Ron if I was stranded on an Island and would not be rescued for at least 3 weeks no matter what I did. Hermione would drive me insane. At least Ron is amusing. And always sweet. Except when he's being stupid. :p

[JBaker]

No. He's the hero because he's willing to go to extraordinary lengths to help *anyone.* Ron and Hermione stick to helping their friends (and in Hermione's case, being a girl scout).

Sorry , a technicality. My point still remains the same. If Ron and Hermione didn't care about others, why did Hermione try to save Buckbeak? Why try to help the house elves?

[delemtri]

Yes, it was before they talked to Kreacher. Harry was seriously distressed and wanted to go there. The evidence is in the argument beforehand. You see, she made the promise to Harry to go with him, to do whatever it took to help Sirius if he wasn't there at Grimmauld Place. She pointed out that it was illogical for Voldemort to be there with Sirius at the MOM. She was also pointing out that Voldemort knew Harry, that he would try something like this (she gave the example of Ginny to show it).

So she knew it was a trap all along. She knew that if Sirius was there at the MOM, as unlikely as she thought it was, it was to lure Harry there.

No, she did not know that Sirius wasn't there after Harry talked to Kreacher. She thought he might not be there beforehand. She SUSPECTED. Is there the least of a suspicion afterwards?


I never said it was based on dislike. I said that the Dursleys helped shaped Harry's choices, his morality. They gave him an example of what not to like, hence why his first encounter with Malfoy has Harry grow to dislike him, because he was reminded of Dudley.

Love is his power, I agree. It helps shape his actions and his beliefs, but it's not the only factor in his moral development.

Yes. It is. Harry's dislike of Malfoy is an *obstacle* to his morality, not an asset.

Sorry , a technicality. My point still remains the same. If Ron and Hermione didn't care about others, why did Hermione try to save Buckbeak? Why try to help the house elves?

A technicality? How is the difference between helping everyone and choosing to help certain people a mere technicality?

[Moonstruck]

I wasn't implying that either. Now you're merging the two arguments - the inequality during Harry's fighting "with" (more like "at") Hermione and Harry's superior morality.

What? And if you were not implying that then why did you keep saying that Harry's morals are greater than Hermione's?

[delemtri]

What? And if you were not implying that then why did you keep saying that Harry's morals are greater than Hermione's?

Because they are. I'm not saying that (Harry's morals - Hermione's morals) > (Hermione's brains - Harry's brains), which is what you were implying.

[PrettyVeela]

So what does Ron bring? Ron brings heart, generosity, humor. He is funny and Harry's best friend. JKR has mentioned valuing friendship and humor above just about everything else. Harry may need Hermione's brains in his life right now but he wants Ron...he "chooses" Ron over and over and that's good enough for me.

Isn't that the truth? He makes Harry laugh and for a boy that has had nothing but heartbreak in his life HARRY NEEDS TO LAUGH for goodness sake. Ron helps him release that.

He's brave, he's loyal, and he cares about Harry and Hermione. :tu:

[Moonstruck]

Because they are. I'm not saying that (Harry's morals - Hermione's morals) > (Hermione's brains - Harry's brains), which is what you were implying.

But that's exaclly the opposite of what I said. No one person has something greater than another.

[delemtri]

But that's exaclly the opposite of what I said. No one person has something greater than another.

I mean, what you were implying I said. I'm agreeing with you when you say all of the trio has a strength; Ron's ?, Hermione's brains, Harry's conscience (morals).

[JBaker]

ETA: I think the reason some of us are debating this is because some of the reasons Hermione is matched with Harry is because they are viewed (perhaps painted) as 2 superior individuals in just about every way and therefore nobody else is "good enough" for them except each other.


I really don't know where some get this idea that it's about putting any two of the trio above the others.

Hermione is matched with Harry because they care about each other more then others (with the possible exception of Ron).


In that scenario Hermione is heroine and not just sidekick; Harry is more intelligent than Ron, etc.

(I added that to an earlier post but things are moving so fast now that I decided to reposition it).

So now we jump into the assumptions about harmony, I just love this part. Firstly, Hermione is the heroine because she is the main female character, not because she is supergirl that wil lsave the day by herself. She is more then a sidekick to Harry, she is an equal, just like Ron.

[delemtri]

I really don't know where some get this idea that it's about putting any two of the trio above the others.

Hermione is matched with Harry because they care about each other more then others (with the possible exception of Ron).

Harry and Sirius empirically cared about each other as much as Harry cared about either Ron or Hermione, and Dumbledore cares as much about Harry as anyone. These are both canon from Dumbledore's time with Harry at the end of OOTP.

[Moonstruck]

I mean, what you were implying I said. I'm agreeing with you when you say all of the trio has a strength; Ron's ?, Hermione's brains, Harry's conscience (morals).

But do you agree that they are all equal?

[delemtri]

But do you agree that they are all equal?

Haven't really decided yet. I tend to favor Harry, really. Do you agree that Harry's morals are his strength, and thus are stronger/deeper than Hermione's?

[IceKat55]

So now we jump into the assumptions about harmony, I just love this part. Firstly, Hermione is the heroine because she is the main female character, not because she is supergirl that wil lsave the day by herself. She is more then a sidekick to Harry, she is an equal, just like Ron.
Ms Rowling disagrees with you - -

From The Boston Globe, 18 October 1999 (http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/1999/1099-bostonglobe-loer.html)

What inspired the Harry Potter series?

"I really don't know where the idea came from. It came into my mind when I was on a train to London. Harry as a character came fully formed, as did the idea for his sidekicks, the characters of Ron and Hermione."
Seems to me like she plotted Ron & Hermione as the 'couple' of sidekicks, to Harry's 'hero' character. Hmmmm.... ;)

[Moonstruck]

Haven't really decided yet. I tend to favor Harry, really. Do you agree that Harry's morals are his strength, and thus are stronger/deeper than Hermione's?

I agree that Harry's morals are his strength, but I do not believe they are stronger or deeper than Hermione's. I feel doing so would diminish Hermione as a character.

[mrs_bombadil]

I really don't know where some get this idea that it's about putting any two of the trio above the others.

Plenty of harmony essays I've read and posts I've seen here, that's why...I didn't say you. I remember pages about Ron supposedly not being on Hermione and Harry's level when I first got here.

Hermione is matched with Harry because they care about each other more then others (with the possible exception of Ron).

Because you think they do...I disagree. It's also not quantity of care it's quality and type. My grandmother always told my mother and her siblings "I care for the child most who needs it the most at the time".

So now we jump into the assumptions about harmony, I just love this part. Firstly, Hermione is the heroine because she is the main female character, not because she is supergirl that wil lsave the day by herself. She is more then a sidekick to Harry, she is an equal, just like Ron.

That's not the definition of heroine in the sense I'm referring to. Equal in what sense?

[JBaker]

Of course Harry wants her support. Of course Hermione helps him. This is not in dispute, they have a very good friendship, they support each other.

However, for all the reasons I stated, they are not compatible on a romantic level. There's a huge difference when transitioning into a sharing partnership, and Harry & Hermione have too many issues (granted, at present time) to have a successful one.


I disagree. Sure they have issues, but they also know how to compromise when it's important. Does Harry ever have a go at Hermione over SPEW? Does he ever insult her? These are issues that Ron and Hermione have with each other.


As I said - - not compatible on a romantic level. However, I realize that what is obvious to some, based on interpretation, or bringing their own real-life experiences into their interpretation (as I am), will not be so obvious to others.

Harry lying to her (whether he feels bad about it or not is irrelevant, the fact is, he feels compelled to do it, and that's not healthy), Harry avoiding her and tuning her out in order to avoid confrontations, Harry being so annoyed with little aspects of her character, all add up to one answer. Not. Romantically. Compatible. :)


So Ron, who is also annoyed with little aspects of her character, annoyed enough to fight with her over it, is a better choice, more compatible? I don't think so.


Toe-to-toe, yes, I call that even footing. As I've said before - - if Ron or Hermione, either or both, wanted to back down from one another in their silly bickering - - don't you think either or both are smart enough to do so?


So when one chooses not to fight, and shuts the other down, that's going toe to toe? This isn't meant to be a boxing match. When one insults the other enough for them to stop talking, or that they stomp away, that's a positive toe to toe fight that's healthy?

They do indeed back down. When Ron is starting to act jealous of Krum again, Hermione simply goes ho ho ho and that's it. When he questions her about it, she simply says that she's allowed a pen friend.


They spur each other on, and on some level, I believe they enjoy their bickering 'competitions'. They've only had two fights. Cat/Rat in PoA and the Yule Brawl in GoF. And they've come out friends each time.


Again I disagree. Hermione points out that Ron is usually rude to her. When Harry yells at them to stop arguing, they agree to stop arguing. When they have a fight concerning Cho, they are left irritable with each other, and not talking. Sorry but this doesn't sound like they enjoy it at all.

I would like to see evidence of Ron and Hermione enjoying their fights.

Ms Rowling disagrees with you - -


Seems to me like she plotted Ron & Hermione as the 'couple' of sidekicks, to Harry's 'hero' character. Hmmmm.... ;)

Yes I agree that she started them out as sidekicks, but I don't agree that they still are, otherwise that would imply that they aren't all that significant to the overall story.

[delemtri]

I agree that Harry's morals are his strength, but I do not believe they are stronger or deeper than Hermione's. I feel doing so would diminish Hermione as a character.

Oop. So Harry's strength isn't actually any stronger than Hermione's strength in the same area?

...

That doesn't really work. Just so you know.

And I do think Harry is more or less above the other two, I've decided for sure after seeing the quote labeling Ron and Hermione as his sidekicks. This doesn't mean that his morals are stronger than hers compared to her intelligence over his; it means that JKR thinks that morality through bravery is the most important thing, as she's said.

[JBaker]

Because you think they do...I disagree. It's also not quantity of care it's quality and type. My grandmother always told my mother and her siblings "I care for the child most who needs it the most at the time".



That's not the definition of heroine in the sense I'm referring to. Equal in what sense?


How nice but canon shows that they do care for each other quite a lot. Hermione is willing to put in the effort to help Harry master the summoning charm.

I agree it's about quality, and so I ask, where si the quality of care for Ron that there is for Harry? Sorry but Hermione isn't your grandmother.

Well, that's the defintion I'm working off. They are equal in the trio. Each brings something to the group as a whole.

Well it's been fun, but I've got to go now.

[IceKat55]

I disagree. Sure they have issues, but they also know how to compromise when it's important. Does Harry ever have a go at Hermione over SPEW? Does he ever insult her? These are issues that Ron and Hermione have with each other.
No he doesn't. Harry lies to her and avoids her on that issue. Ron, at least, is honest with her.

So Ron, who is also annoyed with little aspects of her character, annoyed enough to fight with her over it, is a better choice, more compatible? I don't think so.
Agree to disagree. :)

So when one chooses not to fight, and shuts the other down, that's going toe to toe? This isn't meant to be a boxing match. When one insults the other enough for them to stop talking, or that they stomp away, that's a positive toe to toe fight that's healthy?
If they keep coming back for more - - yep.

They do indeed back down. When Ron is starting to act jealous of Krum again, Hermione simply goes ho ho ho and that's it. When he questions her about it, she simply says that she's allowed a pen friend.
Yes. Progress. As I said, they're learning how far & each others' buttons. And I don't expect you to see my POV on that, it's very obvious that you don't. Which is what makes the world go 'round. :)

Again I disagree. Hermione points out that Ron is usually rude to her. When Harry yells at them to stop arguing, they agree to stop arguing. When they have a fight concerning Cho, they are left irritable with each other, and not talking. Sorry but this doesn't sound like they enjoy it at all.
Yes, but what is their initial reaction when Harry interrupts them & tells them to stop bickering....?? Look it up - - ;)

I would like to see evidence of Ron and Hermione enjoying their fights.
They're still friends, and as I said, neither one seems to have a problem 'coming back for more'. They would not stay friends just for Harry's sake, not if they truly despised each other or their bickering matches.

Yes I agree that she started them out as sidekicks, but I don't agree that they still are, otherwise that would imply that they aren't all that significant to the overall story.
Matter of opinion on either side - - we'll have to wait & see what Ms Rowling has to say about it. ;)

[delemtri]

How nice but canon shows that they do care for each other quite a lot. Hermione is willing to put in the effort to help Harry master the summoning charm.

I agree it's about quality, and so I ask, where si the quality of care for Ron that there is for Harry? Sorry but Hermione isn't your grandmother.

Well, that's the defintion I'm working off. They are equal in the trio. Each brings something to the group as a whole.

Well it's been fun, but I've got to go now.

Sidekicks! Sidekicks! Read the quote!

Yes I agree that she started them out as sidekicks, but I don't agree that they still are, otherwise that would imply that they aren't all that significant to the overall story.

Certainly not as significant to the *plotline* as Harry, Dumbledore, or Voldemort.

Come back! You're wrong!

[FredFancier]

sorry if any of this has been posted n spiff, ive been offline so am a bit behind the times
originally posted by Moonstruck
I think it's icky. Harry wants a family. Not his friends become his family.
Okay then! Since Hermione is his friend, she cant become his family.

Again I have to disagree. Who helped Harry out of the room at christmas? Who was it that got him to calm down at the beginning? Who got him to calm down when talking about the D.A? Who was it that was able to get him to check upp on Sirius at Grimmauld Place before the MOM battle? These are all evidence to show that she can handle capslock Harry.

Yes but why is it that he is so adamant in getting her support? Why is he so desperate to get her help, that he even willingly compromises on a plan (even though at that moment, he thought Sirius was being tortured). He then even acknowledges her solidarity and loyalty.
back to this again are we?
1) if hermione liked him like that, she would have kept him in the room (not the R rated thing you may be thinking of but to spend time with him and maybe confess feelings ttype thing)
Well then I suppose Harry and Hermione do act on equal footing, since Harry does talk to Hermione, does fight with her and does compromise with her, when it matters most.
but R/Hr are both the "sidekicks. the herso's best friends, and yet Harry is the leader
the "leader" and a "sidekick" are not quite on equal footing, completely different tier there.
Originally Posted by yxs
Yeah, I already know Heron shippers expect Harry's death...

Im not counting on it for my ship. I ship my ship and think it will sail whether harry is dead or alive, In fact I have 2 ship choices for harry (first H/G thne H/L) yet I also think there is a chance he might die, but his death is not what Im counting on for my ship to sail.
So. Harry's morals are greater than Hermione's morals

Harry's morals are greater than Ron's morals

Hermione's smarts are greater than Harry's smarts

Hermione's smarts are greater than Ron's smarts

Wow! What's Ron greater at? He's at the bottom of the trio food chain!
Ron is the funniest of the trio!
and Ron is like the mayonaisse(or mustard whatever you prefer) in a sandwich
sure H/Hr would be friends without R/Hr BUT without Ron as a friend, with H/Hr hanging out together, harry gets bored and depressed. So without Ron, H/Hr's friendship isnt at its best, add Ron and you have the golden trio.
I know someone will fire back- No Harry is the mayonaisse/mustard or whatever u like on a sandwich, and the reasoning may be- he stops r/hr from bickering
well he's done that like once
and even during their biggest fights, they are speaking again when harry comes downstairs or whatever
and with the moral thing, I know Im probably going against a shipmate but the def of morals is:
morals

n : motivation based on ideas of right and wrong [syn: ethical motive, ethics, morality]

Ron's morals may be the same as harrys, like wanting to destroy evil- but harry is the one who conquers evil its not ron's fault and I think it unfair to say that he has worse morals then harry, unless one day ron says I hate you harry! im gonna help voldemort and destroy the mudbloods and poor wizarding excuses, then yes, Rons morals are worse, but something tells me that that is unlikely.
personally I dont really get what morals has to do with shipping, people can have different morals and be in love, or people can have similar morals and be in love.
but going back to ron being at the bottom of the trio chain, if you dont like Ron, or want to believe that, thats what your gonna see, and if you love ron, your gonna see him as the best
(personally I like Ron and Harry equally and cconsider myself neutral) and when I read it I see, 3 people each contributing beautifically (yes beautifically not beautifully-cuz im odd like that) to their friendship (although Harry is the "leader" and Ron and Hermione are the "sidekicks"
So now we jump into the assumptions about harmony, I just love this part. Firstly, Hermione is the heroine because she is the main female character, not because she is supergirl that wil lsave the day by herself. She is more then a sidekick to Harry, she is an equal, just like Ron.
there is no heroine. There is a hero and his 2 best friends, or 2 "sidekicks" yes, hermione is the female with the largest role in the books but that DOES NOT MEAN that she will get with harry, nor does it mean she is the "heroine"
generally there is a hero OR a heroine, not both. And in this case we have a hero and his TWO sidekicks, come save the day

Yes I agree that she started them out as sidekicks, but I don't agree that they still are, otherwise that would imply that they aren't all that significant to the overall story.
what? how could they not be sidekicks?
and how are sidekicks not significant to the story? whatabout Batman and Robin? Santa and his elves? Santa and his reindeer? Rudolf and the other 8 reindeer? The president and the vicepresident?
see where Im going?

[Moonstruck]

Oop. So Harry's strength isn't actually any stronger than Hermione's strength in the same area?

...

That doesn't really work. Just so you know.

And I do think Harry is more or less above the other two, I've decided for sure after seeing the quote labeling Ron and Hermione as his sidekicks. This doesn't mean that his morals are stronger than hers compared to her intelligence over his; it means that JKR thinks that morality through bravery is the most important thing, as she's said.

I think it does. Maybe it's because my experiences have given me an understanding that one person's strengths are not greater than another person's. I went though most of my life where people who were stronger than me in some areas were picked over me. So I have devoloped the idea that strengths are not greater than another person's. And to do so devalues the person.

[delemtri]

I think it does. Maybe it's because my experiences have given me an understanding that one person's strengths are not greater than another person's. I went though most of my life where people who were stronger than me in some areas were picked over me. So I have devoloped the idea that strengths are not greater than another person's. And to do so devalues the person.

I think it's okay to devalue anybody in relation to Harry considering that the prophecy (and the SERIES OF BOOKS THAT WE READ) is about him.

I don't mean to offend, but your narrative about your life basically says "I did stuff where other people were stronger than me, but now I think that nobody's strengths are greater than mine." That's confusing.

[Moonstruck]

I think it's okay to devalue anybody in relation to Harry considering that the prophecy (and the SERIES OF BOOKS THAT WE READ) is about him.

Harry's different. He's different from other kids. The fate of a world is on his shoulders, but that doesn't mean he is greater than anyone else. Dumbledore made that mistake.

I don't mean to offend, but your narrative about your life basically says "I did stuff where other people were stronger than me, but now I think that nobody's strengths are greater than mine." That's confusing.

What can I say? My life is confusing! :p

[delemtri]

Harry's different. He's different from other kids. The fate of a world is on his shoulders, but that doesn't mean he is greater than anyone else. Dumbledore made that mistake.

Dumbledore made the mistake of *caring* too much, not *valuing* too much. Imagine you're the coach of a sports team - you treat all of your players the same way, but it's much different to have a star injured than a backup.

What can I say? My life is confusing! :p

Is it also irrational? Because that's what your post was.

[Moonstruck]

Dumbledore made the mistake of *caring* too much, not *valuing* too much.

It's still the same thing.

Is it also irrational? Because that's what your post was.

If I could tell you my life story, then you wouldn't see it that way.

[delemtri]

It's still the same thing.

...? No. It's not. Valuing Harry means that he knows Harry's greatness - yes, greatness - and what he can do. Caring about Harry means that, as he says, he won't mind the deaths of innocents if it means Harry is unhurt.

If I could tell you my life story, then you wouldn't see it that way.

Perhaps not. But I would still see your stance on Harry Potter as irrational. This stance is:

"Being stronger doesn't make your strength greater."

That is irrational.

[phantomwitch]

ookay, keep it civil guys...